balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

rex is biologically built to be fast, and even though it does lose some of that speed when it bulks up in adult, it's not like it's sluggish

[golden coral]

It would be nice if stego got a slower, better looking run, but that's not to be

[storm lotus]

already more beautiful than that of legacy🤣

[hidden kettle]

well yes thats what it should be. but lately carnos pass ya and still get a charge hit somehow ._.
was well used to dodge em but for now its at least a raptor wide space between and gettin hit anyways because of whatever changed on hitreg/latency 😄
and with that bugged chargebite ya pretty much prey under this circumstances atm <.<
only really chance for now is at a body (if buff finally applies) to get rid of em. Dunno whats on there but since hordetest im gettin absolute destroyed as a cera. Guess its mostly the chargebite problem that takes away your biggest threat tho :/

[west plank]

Tenonto's tail is strong enough now, especially that it can instantly knock down the Ceratosaurus, and then it has time to kick it twice. This leads to Tennontosaurus being the dinosaur with the best stamina performance attack. I think the current power of kick and tail is very good, but the stamina cost is ridiculous, especially the fact that the boat costs only 2% is ridiculous, it can kick 55-60 times at full stamina. If I were to give some more numbers, it happens like this: Cera, after being kicked in the head once, is able to receive a second kick. If he gets this kick, his health drops to 36% and as a result, his damage decreases from 150. Carno, after only receiving a few kicks, if Tenonto chases him, he will die because of bleeding. In these cases, Tenonto is very superior. In short, Tenonto's abilities need to receive a stamina debuff. without any reinforcement
#balance-feedback message

[west plank]

Like this #balance-feedback message

[dusky surge]

teno's tail is literally one of its weakest moves

i get you hate teno but god damn lol

you're a broken record at this point

[west plank]

When the tail strike is combined with the kick, Cera especially has no chance because he has less health and is slower.

So tail ability is op

[west plank]

I just want the game to be more balanced

And I think I have good reasons

[dusky surge]

you just want teno nerfed

that's not balancing the game, that's just revenge balancing a herbivore that beat you

[west plank]

I'm not saying I was defeated, I'm just saying the numbers were mostly on Tenonto's side. That's why this needs an edit

[west plank]

This is not for all herbivores only tennontosaurus problem.

[keen plover]

you know cera can easily evade teno rn, right?

Also why are you running into the tail?

Teno can only use it defensively

just slightly increase the stam costs on kick and maybe slam and reduce the attack cooldowns. Really that simple

[west plank]

A fix for tail attack was suggested but I disagree so I talked about tail. However, in the features of the kick and tail, the kick must receive a stamina debuff.

Without any buff

[keen plover]

Teno's attacks weren't slowed down as a nerf. The cooldown was added to prevent damage hacks. All they need to do is reduce the end lag between animations. This patch only changed basic (primary) attack cooldowns. Now they need to fix the secondary attacks.

[west plank]

I think the current cooldown is more than enough for kick and tail.So there is no need to change it.

[dusky surge]

its too long, it makes the entire thing feel clunky

[west plank]

Generally i agree with you

[west plank]

It must be like that anyway. It has a mass of 1.6 tons 😄

[dusky surge]

So make cera clunky too

[west plank]

Although cera is already bulky and has less mass, it is slower and therefore has less health.

[dusky surge]

But it has a fluid combat

So therefor teno should have one too

[west plank]

40.2
40.3
If u wanna avoid a cera u can bite them so u can canceling their charge bite

Because u have better speed

[keen plover]

That reasoning isn't all that good tbh

[keen plover]

do you really think cancelling a cera's charge bite via damage is intentional?

[west plank]

No, thanks to the latest patch, Tenonto cancels Cera's charge bite by biting him from the tail and can kick Cera whenever he turns his back.

[keen plover]

And that will be fixed

[west plank]

For now if u know how to cancel Cera charge u will never lose 1v1

[keen plover]

What does that have to do with intended balance?

[west plank]

We will see what happens next patch

[west plank]

Because this is something that happened in the last patch
Idk

[leaden remnant]

it doesn't need a change tho

cera is not supposed or made to go around killing tenos

the fact that you can is outside of what is intended for cera, that's a risk that you take knowing the stats, so now asking for teno to be nerfed cause you want to hunt them is just not the way to go

[cosmic pelican]

Not to mention cera just got a massive buff vs tenos

The matchup is perfectly fine rn. A solo cera cen defend itself quite nicely even vs multiple tenos, and a teno that is outnumbered can run from ceras

[west plank]

Tenonto can kick between 55-60 in a single stamina. If it maintains his value to 60%, this makes him invincible. This needs to be increased. It is not talking about cera here, but those who reject this refuse because they are afraid of cera.

Tenonto will still be strong, but I argue that a dinosaur that can kick more than 60 tabs is nonsense.

This is not for only Cerato this is everything

[leaden remnant]

you can charge bite and do 300 damage infinite times without the need of standing still

[leaden remnant]

if it is not about cera, why do you bring up cera?

it absolutely is about cera when the only dino you mention is cera and the nerfs you propose allow cera to better hunt teno

[west plank]

I didn't

[dusky surge]

It's absolutely about cerato, he just doesn't want to admit it

[west plank]

They continued the topic on cera, so I gave an example from here, I don't see any problem with it.

It has also been said that reality is not fully reflected in this game, so ceratos can be a hunter when necessary and something else when necessary.

[leaden remnant]

nono you started it on cera and we continued on cera

[leaden remnant]

cera is exclusively a scavenger

[west plank]

I saw sorry

My fault

[leaden remnant]

the ability to hunt comes from the inmense power it has

so you can choose to hunt, however expect risks and challenges

teno doesn't need a nerf

[west plank]

I don't really care about this, I'm just saying that the 2% fee is too little.

[leaden remnant]

it's not tho

also yes you care quite a damn lot you post a suggestion like that every day

but regardless of that, each teno attack costs stamina

with how unforgiving and limiting stamina is, 2% is perfectly fine

[west plank]

I think %3 better choice because of damage and other stats like stun and bleed

[leaden remnant]

just leave it the way it is

teno is too clunky with its attacks and requires too much precision

not to mention that its hitboxes are absolutely awful

[west plank]

I don't know, this doesn't seem balanced to me at all, so I think this suggestion could be much better.

[leaden remnant]

it is balanced

don't hunt tenos as a cera

[west plank]

I did and i will do 🫡

[leaden remnant]

then don't complain and suggest yet another nerf when you die

[west plank]

It has nothing to do with dying. In general, I win anyway, but I can say that this is not just for Cera, but also for Carno and other dinosaurs.

For example carno charge ability cost %10

This is ridiculous

According to tenonto cost

Also when the stego uses a tail it loses %5 but tenonto tail only %3

These are not fair

[dusky surge]

my guy you play cerato, who has 0% on its charge bite

[west plank]

I've said this many times and many people agree with me
#balance-feedback message.

[leaden remnant]

you don't need it to kill something

and if a carno takes on a teno... boi, good luck

[west plank]

You wait 4 seconds to charge and it also cancels if you take any damage.

[leaden remnant]

however i agree that ram is stupidly bad right now

[leaden remnant]

that's a bug, it doesn't warrant a teno nerf

[dusky surge]

ram is garbage that much is true

[leaden remnant]

just because some people agree it doesn't mean it's right

[west plank]

This is not a bug, it was added in the last update as if any damage is taken, the attack will be canceled.

[leaden remnant]

well then wait for them to change it

[leaden remnant]

that is a spiro value

for some reason it hasn't been changed

or maybe it won't even be changed who knows

[west plank]

I don't think it needs to change

For now cera is good

[keen plover]

Was it in the patchnotes as an intended feature?

[leaden remnant]

im talkin about stego

[keen plover]

345n damage on a no cost ability. Also it still scales. You don't need to hold it for the full charge to deal more than 200n damage

[west plank]

It will take alt attack

[leaden remnant]

wat

[keen plover]

lol

[west plank]

Able to make rapid attacks by keeping its tail ready

[leaden remnant]

those are not rapid attacks

that is the biggest animation lock ever

[west plank]

But when u turn tenonto u can stunned

[leaden remnant]

bait a swing go for a hit bait a swing go for a hit

even a raptor can solo a stego for that reason

and bites only

[dusky surge]

and it applies bacteria, which is a powerful stun with an additionally powerful status effect

[leaden remnant]

pretty sure it applies more bacteria than regular bite, correct?

[dusky surge]

correctomundo

[leaden remnant]

good, cause im playing cera right now

[dusky surge]

2x more iirc

[west plank]

Normal for the dinosaur with the least health and speed

[leaden remnant]

wdym least health

and speed

[dusky surge]

it can have up to 2600HP effective HP, the highest of any non-apex animal

[leaden remnant]

cera is an absolute tank and deino is the slowest dino

stego is slower than cera as well

[static thorn]

i think you forget that Herbivores only realm of defence is their right click ability, so yes its going to cost less stam then a carniore who can literally BITE without stamina even.

[dusky surge]

and hypsi

[leaden remnant]

that

[dusky surge]

and beipi

[west plank]

No player who knows this will attack Cera there. If there is a herbivore stupid enough to do this, he is doomed to die.

[keen plover]

^^^^

[dusky surge]

which is WHY YOU ARE A SCAVENGER

[keen plover]

You have a 150n attack that costs zero stamina

Why don't you add a stam cost to bite :)

[leaden remnant]

also cera does a damn lot of bleed right now

[west plank]

Any dinosaur that knows this buff will not try it

[keen plover]

It does. Especially after puking something

[leaden remnant]

i just bled out a fg dilo with 4 bites as a 42% cera

however i must say that bro was running away like a madman

not to mention that an alt bite almost bleeds a raptor out

[keen plover]

Cera players aren't the smartest tbh. They don't really try to kill creatures with thirst even though it's effective

[leaden remnant]

cera is an absolute tank that can kill carnos on an alt bite contest

however i as a cera wouldn't go around trying to hunt carnos, i simply go around stealing food that's it

[static thorn]

its funny everytime i play deino, it gets pretty easy to tell if someones wall/esp hacking. 90% of hackers are always playing Cera 💀 just a funny thing

[leaden remnant]

yes

because it's crazy strong

[keen plover]

Yep. Easy to play dino

You can get diets pretty easily and it scales well in groups

I hate seeing them around tbh

I love playing cera but I hate seeing other ceras

[static thorn]

its ok, i logged in today and immiedietly grabbed and killed a fg cera on my deino

[leaden remnant]

i like seeing ceras around, i like huntin em

[static thorn]

#day ruined

[west plank]

cera can't use this feature all the time so he has to kill someone to find garbage

[leaden remnant]

no

[dusky surge]

you have a colossal scent range

[leaden remnant]

just use your nose

[dusky surge]

i play cerato and find food across the entire island lmao

[west plank]

Also, this doesn't work for small meals, so not every corpse works.

[leaden remnant]

im playin cera right now man, this thing is an obliteratino machine

[leaden remnant]

then find big meals

like literally just go around searching for food to steal

[west plank]

This is difficult

[leaden remnant]

it is not

[west plank]

Cera doesn't need any nerf and buff but other should take arrangement

[leaden remnant]

ceras have a massive scent range

use your nose to find food

[keen plover]

oh i think it needs 1 nerf tbh

I'd remove vomit stun. I don't really like how cera can punch up with that mechanic. I'd make the debuff worse though

[west plank]

no, this makes it weak especially against stego so there is no need for this

[leaden remnant]

specially against stego? wat

[keen plover]

Run from it?

Personally feel like they should make vomit give a good form of debuff.

[west plank]

There are many possibilities and we'll see what happens next.

[leaden remnant]

well i just died to another cheating cera

4 times in the span of 4 days and all of them are ceras

sooo yeah cera is in a good spot rn trust me theres a reason why all cheaters use it

[unique mortar]

Its powerful except for its speed, although thats a pretty big deal because thats what balances it . If you remove that problem(through speedhacks) its powerful...

Although.... while I think it could use some tweaks(and its charge bite fixed atleast) it isnt in a bad spot rn either.... your right

[leaden remnant]

yus

[unique mortar]

The balance between FG Carno hunger and stamina rn is..... ridiculous.... Ima have to keep track of it next Carno cause.... the amount you need to eat to fill hunger, and the speed your hunger goes down rn.... thats crazy.... but with how fast your stam burns?

Carno FG is..... really in a bad spot rn ignoring combat

80% carno is in a fine spot(cause it takes less to fill, hunger seems to drain slower, and its stam drain is way less!)

[fiery shard]

#balance-feedback message
Teno not a robot to wag his tail every second. 3 second pause is the perfect time for a predator to do some damage. and teno already has 4 types of attack

[dusky surge]

3 seconds is absurdly long for teno

i can't believe a whole 3 second cooldown is okaay

[tropic horizon]

Wait someone actually asked for a 3 second cool down on tenos tail slam

That’s hilarious

[dusky surge]

went to a private server specifically to test the tailslam

yea, the cooldown is stupid, it makes the animal feel gross

(but i guess if you never play herbi, you wouldn't understand why it's bad)

[tropic horizon]

But if they reverted the bite cooldown on raptor I’m sure there’d be lots of people screeching in the feedback channels then

[dusky surge]

thats because not all animals are made equally

some are made herbivores, God Forbid

[tropic horizon]

And that makes them worse than the mighty carnivores

So ig tenos tailslam is now worthless to use?

[dusky surge]

i'm sure the dibble will be a point of contension for months once it releases

in a cera or raptor battle, tailslam is not worth your time

[stark knoll]

"smaller animals shouldnt body carno" or something

[dusky surge]

basically, tailslam opens teno up to all kinds of counterattack

again, god I wish I could stream in this discord to prove my point

[tropic horizon]

Oh boy I’m prepared for all the dibble is broken comments

[dusky surge]

its SO gross to try and use

[tropic horizon]

When have we had a herbi that’s launched overpowered besides pachy? Like, never?

[dusky surge]

kick, claw and bite are fine to use, but dear god slam sucks

[frail bobcat]

hypsi of course

[dusky surge]

people will try to argue stego, but that thing was melted by raptors in a mere few seconds

[tropic horizon]

4 raptors pouncing it killed it with nothing it could do except try and get to a tree, not to mention raptors could tank an absurd amount of hits back then

[dusky surge]

yea but it was necessary as the big game hunters

you wouldn't understand because ur a stego loving raptor hater

[frail bobcat]

https://tenor.com/view/disgustang-disgusting-disgusteng-havinashet-shet-gif-12520181

[tropic horizon]

I am the herbi apologist

[frail bobcat]

anyways, what is you guys opinion on galli not being on omnis diet anymore

[dusky surge]

raptor gets nerfed every single update for no reason because weak herbi players can't take being beaten by a superior animal and its just not fair

[tropic horizon]

Ehh? Not sure if it’s an amazing change all things considered

[frail bobcat]

just scrap dilo from the diet and have galli there

[tropic horizon]

Yes, Dilo is like the last thing I can imagine an omni hunting alone and galli just fits way better there

[frail bobcat]

not to mention, galli was literally tailored to be able to be pinned by omni

[dusky surge]

cerato and deino are still on the diet lol

but galli is too far

[frail bobcat]

I mean, baby ceratos are fine. But deino is horrible

when do I get to eat a deino

[dusky surge]

cerato is stupid as a diet option, baby or not imho

[tropic horizon]

Cera being on raptors diet is the most ridiculous thing ever to me. “Ah yes let’s hunt the animal designed to counter us in every way shape and form.” Also more reasons as to why food preferences are kinda stinky

[frail bobcat]

So just gut cera, put dibble on it (once it is out) and gut deino while also swapping dilo and galli

[dusky surge]

"Ah, the corpse bully scavenger that you're encouraged never to hunt due to its sceptic bite and defensive playstyle?"
"Hunt it. Otherwise you won't get those sweet nutrients"

[frail bobcat]

Man, omnis diet is screwed up rn

[fiery shard]

can't believe such a very long tail can be wagged every second

[dusky surge]

can't believe such a large mouth can chomp down every half second

and yet it is

[tropic horizon]

That’s my new favorite quote from here

[fiery shard]

anything relevant to write? if not, you don't have to keep me in loop

[dusky surge]

the same large mouth that we asked to be stronger than other compact mouth based entirely on visuals
#general-feedback message

I wish teno had an attack as nice and fluid as cerato bite

But no, we need it to have massive "no attack" cooldown because it uh

stronk herbimore

big mouth = fast, accurate, good in combat
big tail = slow, sluggish, FOOLISH to utilise

god as my witness this makes sense

[dusky surge]

my relevance is entirely subjective, that's half the fun

[tropic horizon]

God that post is hilarious to me even as someone who mains cera, increasing its bite force is still the dumbest way to buff that thing

[dusky surge]

but mouth bibber

teeth sharpnert

are you but a fool to not see the facts

[tropic horizon]

“There’s all these fundamental flaws with my animal that allow it to not fulfill its niche, instead of fixing that let’s buff its damage.”

[dusky surge]

the fix to its problems is to be more of generic combat carnivore

i refuse to engage with its core gameplay loop

carnivore = killer murderer that DESTROYS the feeble hermbivores

[tropic horizon]

Buff its speed and stamina, also give it a stunning headswing and louder 3 call to make it more ferocious and strong

[hasty coyote]

hermbivores

[tropic horizon]

As well as making it be able to pounce, should 1v1 stego, 60/40 cera favor

[frail bobcat]

ermibores

[dusky surge]

the correct terminology

if it were a typo, i would correct it. i know what i said

[tropic horizon]

Hervibores

[dusky surge]

i love it when every single time a semi-big carni is shown off it is shown just obliterating stego in no contest

thank god we're invalidating a playable that people actually enjoy

[tropic horizon]

Wrong Nobody enjoys stego

[dusky surge]

i don't, but i refuse to believe the idea that no one does

[frail bobcat]

there are some people that do, because I got stabbed my a group of four yesterday

[dusky surge]

thats because i like stupid idiot smalls

[tropic horizon]

I like bully animals because

[hasty coyote]

One thing I will say though, I havent seen many "buff omni" or "nerf omni" posts, which is odd because generally its the one whose most volatile, and currently its pretty strong. Stego kinda just dies if you know how to bait a swing and just melt its stamina. Teno and carno get shredded when theres 3+ omnis. Pachy v omni comes down to who hits first wins.

[dusky surge]

the buff omni posts will come

give it time, it requires a mere fuse to set off the bomb

[tropic horizon]

Why is every animal designed to be a bully so fun

[dusky surge]

we must await a nappn upload before we see results

[hasty coyote]

diablo will def cause a lot of contention

[frail bobcat]

wait until dibble comes out

[dusky surge]

the ffpppphhhht

[dusky surge]

my favourite animal

[tropic horizon]

You have seen the light

[hasty coyote]

yeah, it will either have good flank protection, and omnis think it should roll over and die, or it will have bad flank protection and people will complain that it rolls over and dies.

[dusky surge]

he got lost :(

now he sees the dark

[tropic horizon]

Cera is the light at night

[frail bobcat]

I want dibble to be a good hunting target for omni, but still difficult

[tropic horizon]

He’s bioluminescent

[dusky surge]

i want dibble to cause balance complaints

[tropic horizon]

I want dibble

[frail bobcat]

like on teno lvl when buck actually works

[dusky surge]

i want humans to cause balance complaints, but specifcially from human players complaining that its too hard

[frail bobcat]

I want hell to break loose in the feedback channels

[tropic horizon]

I need the delicious salty tears of the skill issued

[frail bobcat]

Can we have dibble released ridicously OP

just to see the carnage

[tropic horizon]

It’s pachy all over again

[frail bobcat]

Diabloceratorex

[tropic horizon]

Diablotrike

[frail bobcat]

Diablophodon

[hasty coyote]

honestly, as long as it slower than cera, and can't kill stego, its going to be fine.

[frail bobcat]

but what if it could do both those things

just imagine, for a week

[frail bobcat]

Imagine all the fun in the discussion channels

[tulip tusk]

Ah yes- let me imagine a few of the things I’d see here and in general feedback..
“DIBBLE IS WAAAY TOO POWERFUL. IT SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO KILL THINGS SO EASILY.”
Issue with that sentence is we’re gonna see it either way.. happens often..

[halcyon elk]

I fear the problem of it being too weak

[tulip tusk]

Whether it’s weak or strong someones gonna say its too strong as long as they die to it once

[halcyon elk]

It's a nonzero possibility

[leaden remnant]

im gonna be fully honest

i think deino fits in raptor's diet amazingly well

call me crazy but killing deinos as a raptor is insanely easy

[leaden remnant]

no nerf omni because when dondi says something, it is going to be done, same thing with no buff omni

and if dondi wants to buff raptor, it will happen (he wants to)

and also pounce to pin is a massive buff

[hasty coyote]

Has Don said he wants to buff Omni

Honestly what Omni needs is a rebalance on the buck and scrape off mechanics. Make bucking more powerful and scraping them off less powerful. Then omni can actually be balanced accordingly much easier because you don’t have to solely rely on terrain and terrain doesn’t entirely shut down Omni.

[leaden remnant]

pretty much yes

pounce to pin

ability to make herrera unable to climb if a smol (not fresh spawn) pounces him

directional attacks

[hasty coyote]

I’m hoping pounce to pin is just a finisher, like if you’re out of stam. So you don’t end up with a stego running out of stam and waiting 5 minutes to die as omnis face tank it.

Rather than “oh you got pounced by x amount of omnis, guess you die”

[hasty coyote]

Also that’s how flying works so that makes sense.

[leaden remnant]

yes it is

im guessing it's below a certain stam/blood or both threshold

also certain dinos lose stamina if they walk with a raptor pouncing em

[golden coral]

@hidden kettle Honestly, dilo having an innate "remove pouncing omni" if it can get you to stage three before you pounce seems like it could be an interesting thing.

[slim dragon]

That's a very weird interaction tho

Like I can get hallucinations dealing damage because it's poison, but making an omni fall off ? Eh...

[hidden kettle]

Well that would be interesting but then it should get a 4th Stage maybe that messes even more with your mind. Since you already get there by 1(!) bite at night. I Like it being stronger at night but i dont like 1 bite 50 hallus while running away 😂

[slim dragon]

Especially since the dilo can't see them, so they can't be used as a survival tactic

[hidden kettle]

e thats what i thought 😄
Was really wierd i was at ~30% stam and No trees/Rocks the hallu Touched me, Fell off then got the hallu dmg then it disappeared Like wtf 😄

Like If you Walk throu one

[golden coral]

Fair, I just read it and went "huh, thats kind of interesting", so I can see some potential in it. But it would make more sense that you just take the damage, so that ought to be good enough.

[hidden kettle]

Well there is a lot of Potential for sure Just was wondering it does it 😄
Would Not even be Mad If thats on purpose just would Like to know that 😄
Well no more 3rd Stage pounce for me xD

[leaden remnant]

i don't think that removing one of the two reliable escape methods from raptors and further buffing dilo is a good idea

you can run away and jump on a rock, but, if you are a bit far away, it's common to do a 2-3 second pounce and then begin running so that the dilo loses a ton of blood and either bleeds out or has horrendous stamina regen for a while (which you can use to kill him later on)

[golden coral]

Fair, I just find it a bit interesting. And since you'd need third stage, its not something that can be pulled off however the dilo wishes

[leaden remnant]

1 bite to the head is all it takes

[golden coral]

Even during day?

[leaden remnant]

i think so, yes

[hidden kettle]

Depends on the growth/weight i think but its 1 at night and 2-3 at day i think (Not Sure) still its pretty easy to get it into 3rd Stage for hallus since also Body bites apply it quick on "smaller" Dinos like omni. The drop Off s stuff Would be a cool Idea as an extra Stage for some Dinos. But maybe thats a better Idea for an extra Dino that gor venom weakening abilities think
Now since i got dropped Off by a hallucination i wanna Check If i lose bacteria on them as well on a hitting bite.. that could prove the drop as Well since it would be a real active object.. which it shouldnt be .. Nor should it ?

[golden coral]

Huh, that's... a little too good if so I'd say

[golden coral]

Alright. Hm, do you mean that the cerato lose bacteria if you bite a hallucination? Because yeah, that seems like it'd be odd. Though you could make an argument that the cera doesn't know it's not real, and thus would spew bile during the bite. Now this also makes me wonder, what if you pounce a cera, another cera stacks bile until you vomit as omni, do you fall off, do you just vomit and keep pouncing, or what happens?

[hidden kettle]

Ye i havent been able to check that with straight up footage til now ( didnt found a dilo today ) but im pretty sure i was out of bacteria by biteing them while fighting a dilo, which didnt pukes so my bacteria had to be gone somewhere 😄
i think its just a "oopsie" thing on dilo making the hallus actually an object (since its maybe a easier way to make em because they bite as well i guess).
you vomit after the pounce ( as far as i experienced ) like you cant vomit while sitting and stand up at the time of throwing up. also a cera getting a omni into vomit is pretty rare since its dead before its belly filled.. thats also really wierd since smaller dinos should get way more bacteria from it.. sometimes it just feels like a static % that gets filled by different hits <.<

[golden coral]

It probably is, yes. But it does make for interesting scenarios, when things like this happen. And yeah, I realized most ceras would kill an omni before vomiting is (bit of a shame that, scale venom and bile please!). But that makes sense, you vomit as soon as you get off and land instead then? Wish other attacks also went through before vomiting, unless that's a thing these days.

[hidden kettle]

well its cancels everything you do but as far as in know the pounce just ends (thats why i meant after the pounce wasnt precise enough there) and then as you hit the ground, you vomit (feels kinda mid air tho). If didnt changed last time i got to vomit like that was gateway stresstest thats been a while ago 😄
was by a tiny cera tho

[golden coral]

@old turret I don't think balancing purely off "it has x counter, therefor good" is a good way to do things. Even if rex comes without trike, it should be balanced properly, not just go "oh it's only OP because no trike". Same with stego, it's.... honestly not in a good spot, because it might just die when rex comes out, which would require some balancing. And using legacy is, not ideal, even less so when stego in legacy was never balanced for survival rex in legacy. So any matchup there says little to nothing, even less than what only survival matchups would. Relying on a "counter" instead of balancing properly seems like a bad idea, the roster should be balanced overall, so every critter is viable given any matchup.

[old turret]

I might've stressed counters too much. I agree balancing is important. But I don't think some people grasp what should and shouldn't be balanced until further dinos come out. I don't think every dino on the roster should be viable in any given matchup. 1 stego vs 1 allo wouldn't be a fair fight. It would most likely hunt in a pack. This game is meant to be played with others. If anyone thinks they can win 1v1 with any dino against any dino I think they're playing the wrong game.

[golden coral]

Viable does not mean "win the fight" it means "survive the encounter". Should have clarified that, apologies. But I would disagree that you shouldn't attempt to balance any playable as it comes in, because it'll still have to deal with the current roster, even with more playables after all.

Even if you add rex, it doesn't mean stego won't deal with it's current issues, hence balancing should be done even before rex comes in.

[old turret]

very good point I agree tbh

[old turret]

I will say though I don't expect every dino to be able to survive every encounter. If a raptor gets a drop on a dryo I'd imagine that the encounter that the dryo had to survive was to be more vigilent. I would like to note that counters are also a part of balancing a game. Same thing with any other game where if a character excells at one thing it is weak to another and insert counter. But I think now that I've spoken with you I see now that balance and counters are equally important.

[golden coral]

But being more vigilant is a viable counter. Survival simply means "I'm not dead on sight", a dryo that sees a raptor in time can avoid it. Being ambushed is on you for well, not paying attention. But if you do pay attention, but still can't run or fight or even hide because your stats are no good, then there's an issue.

Think more so if dryo sees raptor, but raptor is both stronger and faster, and dryo has no burrow to get into. Then you just get run down and die, and that is neither fun nor balanced

[old turret]

I guess it depends on point of view. Because from where I'm coming from I don't see this as a game that will be perfectly balanced for every single dino verse another dino. In nature it's surive or die, eat or be eaten. There are simply dinos that just outclass others realisticaly you know? If this game is going for more realistic I think there will be times when you're on short end of the stick on the food chain based on what you're playing against who you're playing. But if they're going to balance this like a MOBA or a fighter game that's one thing.

[old turret]

But yes I think every creature should have that chance as survial don't get me wrong.

[golden coral]

I don't think it's a fighter/MOBA because you have a viable way to survive the encounter. And sure, irl it might not work like that, but well, game and fun takes precedence. Investing a lot of time in a playable, only to face guaranteed death if you run into the wrong encounter, doesn't seem like much fun.

[neon willow]

If there are encounters where, no matter what you do, you just die because you are outclassed... Then that is simply not fun game design. (And also not realistic-- in ecosystems, if an animal is completely outclassed by another, said animal goes extinct because it can't compete). Plus, why would anyone play something that is a guaranteed death upon encounter? That's why people don't play dryo or hypsi right now.

That being said, this is a survival game, and that means 2 things. First, to win means to survive, at any cost, and to lose means to die, preferably because the player made mistakes. And second, you don't need to balance like a MOBA or fighter game. Therefore, a "balanced" encounter could mean: Dino a can escape dino b (burrow, trees, flight, swimming), OR dino a can fight dino b (attacks, damage), OR dino a can avoid dino b (running away, turn radius, camouflage, etc). And vice versa for dino b to dino a. Also, arguably, if dino a and dino b take equivalent times to grow, they probably shouldn't be able to one-shot each other, just because losing 2 hours instantly feels... Not good. Obviously if something that takes significantly longer to grow gets a hold of you, you're probably not gonna be having a good time....

Also obviously, if your dinosaur uses the escape method of survival (beipi, Herrera, ptera), and you wander too far from safety (water/tree/flying), that's the player's mistake, and that's where it's fair to get punished for it

Same with the others-- if your dino isn't kitted to fight other dinos, then trying to fight is a mistake that can be punished

[old turret]

Agreed survival is important. I too would not want to face guaranteed death especially if I'm making all the right moves.

[old turret]

There's a sweet spot in there somewhere that's for sure. Though I'd be curious to see how less often players would die if these survival balancing tactics were implemented. I also know that playing as a carni can be very stressfull at times especially when you can't find food. If every dino I faced had a sure way of escaping everytime I feel like it'd be a game of cat and mouse between lower tier and higher tier dinos; which it kind of already is. But I agree it needs a survival based balancing and proper counters.

[coarse blaze]

#balance-feedback message Ceratosaurus isn't meant to be fighting carnotaurus anyhow, it's a scavenger that bullies other players off of bodies via it's body buff so there's no need to try and balance the fight between them. However ceratosaurus is very capable of just out maneuvering carnotaurus with ease given it's superior mobility; if you're dead set on killing one you absolutely can just don't try and face-tank it without a large corpse.

[leaden remnant]

yes that's the point

carno is superior

that's where the body buffs come in tho, you should be scared to fight one without a body by your side

[coarse blaze]

Flashback to when Dondi made it clear that not everything is meant to take everything head on in fights.

[coarse blaze]

"Nuh uh"

[leaden remnant]

real

[hidden kettle]

Plot Twist you're not since Charge Hits even by passing due to a wird hitbox it got atm and cera bites either dont Connect or so damage at all since its bugged. Its in a pretty Bad Stage and even with Body buff the Carno can win this at eeze If it dont have Just 2 braincells looking for the third.. under this circumstances now.

[leaden remnant]

but that's just you atp ive never seen that happening

[hidden kettle]

did a lot tho.
from carnos running past me or a mate and still getting hit for example.
and the chargebite "bug" is nothin new sadly.. does kinda normal bite dmg which is really bad since its a ability you rely on a lot 😦
seen enough ceras getting demolished by carnos if they just dare knowing wahts on with chargebite for now.. <.<
just a temporary problem, til is fixed. Then we back to the better one may win 😄

[leaden remnant]

hold rmb and then press lmb to do a charge bite

[hidden kettle]

i know but still sometimes its not working.
bit a tiny raptor with it and it just survived screaming on a hit.. would like to know how much dmg a 4sec chargebite does to a 20%ish raptor like that was BS 😄

other times it does full dmg by just releaseing rmb, some times it doesnt, same with lmb.
its not working properly, thats fact, we know it and its a big issue for ceras 😄

[leaden remnant]

wow that's you being so damn laggy

[hidden kettle]

especially for fighting bigger dinos like carno if it wants to compete.
but even on dilo and raptors it really P` me off if a raptor got stuck to me and full on chargebites to the face wont do S because they are bugged 😄
raptors are charge+alt bite on decent hits. but not for now 😄

[hidden kettle]

bruh ping of 20-30 aint laggin 😄
got a really good and fast connection from my side tho.
so even if it would be lag ( and i dont think that ) the raptor f.e. got a hit knowing by its scream.. and should be dead.
im not mad about the overall balanceing, IF it works poperly 😄

[leaden remnant]

it just feels weird

[hidden kettle]

and knowing some others got the same issues with the carno ram hitting wider than the carno itself is, makes it not a "just me" problem.

[leaden remnant]

you takl about things that never happened to me or anyone i know

[hidden kettle]

it is

well i know some sadly thats what makes me a bit mad about it so i kinda know its not just me 😄

dont know why they didnt looked at that bite already like its really what makes it stay alive in a lot of situations <.<

[rigid tulip]

Anyone else just now realizing how pathetically easy it is to win the carno v teno 1v1 as teno?

Without charge it feels like you are playing the matchup in a wheelchair while the teno has brass knuckles and a reach advantage

This is coming from me who used to complain daily about carno

[hidden kettle]

teno is a superstrong powerhouse yes. Kick nearly strong as a cera bite (125) and bleed applied is insanely good too. Carno without charge/knockdown on it is not haveing a easy time thats for sure.
well carno still got insanely high biteforce but against an agile teno thats not really helpful :/
Im fine with tenos i get my B kicked a lot since chargebite problems 😄
its supposed to be a real UFC champion of a brawler ..
Carno supposed to be a small game hunter running for smaller prey ( woudl say to a weight of dilo or half carno weight).
Hunting juvies and early subs is pretty fun and ez as carno. Its a hunter not a Fighter/ MMA champion.

I get the frustration, got it on tenos as well so i understand that tho.

[rigid tulip]

The only issue is the massive hitboxes on all of its attacks and its extremely long stun. I get rewarded less for more effort, is my point. By barely clipping me he essentially guarantees himself at least 250 damage (worst case scenario for him) By me juking his massive hitboxes (with the least agile dino in the game) i get 175 damage.

I play cera more than i play carno, and honestly at least cera can dodge teno attacks and make it puke, but teno still needs to be looked at. I have been a long time teno supporter but I simply can no longer do so after actually experiencing multiple 1v1s against it

[hidden kettle]

ye teno is a 1v1 BEAST its really wierd even after vomit how much stam they got and how often they can swing.
ye that hitreg/hitbox is a big thing (sometimes get a tail hit from tail and get knocked for example) but thats a problem overall, not only on teno ._.
ngl i said plenty of times im feeling more confident killing a stego with its 360° tail that reaches longer than that tail actually is 😄

[coarse blaze]

If I have at least 2 other ceras with me I'd honestly much rather fight a steg than a teno 100% of the time.

The amount of times I've been knocked down, including in water by the tip of the tenos tail touching my hitbox is actually absurd.

[leaden remnant]

yes

because carno is made to be unable to fight tenos

[dusky surge]

On one hand, carno is not meant to beat teno
On the other, carno is riduculously underpowered rn

[leaden remnant]

yes

[hidden kettle]

absolute!
id even go so far to say id rather fight a young sub stego or a late juvie alone than a fg teno 😄

[hidden kettle]

well its actually pretty strong if you see it as the small game hunter it should be.
everything up to a few hundred Kilos is kinda oneshot-ish by ram+altbite 😛
if they would adjust the carno to get way more food value by those smaller diet dinos it would be perfectly working. Sadly thats not the case atm what makes the "small game hunter" go for something bigger, not to starve. Also there would be a need of small dinos, so they need to make stuff like dyro maybe faster growing or someway more fun to play in order to get this ecosystem working then :/

[dusky surge]

i think RMB is still stupidly overtuned in terms of damage, but the windup/stam is insanely weak

[hidden kettle]

ye totally!
should have less stam consumption but also less dmg may that would work out better for it.
Its super fast and should be able to windup a longer distance with its stam to openfield charge smaller prey imo.
would make it more to small game hunter since its dmg would be less on charge but by knocking a dilo/Omni/pachy for example and followup altbites it would manage to "ambush" or run it down.
should have the stam pool to actively hunt smaller dinos.
This way that charge would be more useful to smaller prey since you can use it more often/effective but less useful against bigger dinos like Cera/teno, could lead to the small game hunter being its thing, hunting stuff up to 5-600kg like pachy/omni/dyro or juveniles 😄

[shadow vortex]

It’s worth noting that ram stamina has also been bugged for several patches already. What I mean is that this stamina still being consumed after you let go of RMB, thus for the tap ram you waste not 10%, but ~20%.

[fallow blaze]

Totally agree👍
Carno as small game hunter should stay where he is.

other and better hunters will come into play to do this job

[hidden kettle]

Yes agree! We really need to keep in mind that the roaster will grow over time 🙂
Cant wait to see how the whole ecosystem will work If it all comes together 😄
Like carnos hunting Rex puppies running from its mother xD

[fallow blaze]

Absolutely
And everybody can decide where he wants to play that ecosystem: offis= less creatures and basically balanced.
Or on community server with every creature. More unbalance, but i say= unbalance is balance (some creatures are comepletely lost, some can better survive and others have not many enemys= thats Nature, thats balance)

[uncut hamlet]

add more migration zones for the stego its boring running 2 from swamp to highland and get back to swamp and fix the food picking bug stuck in the mouth

[unique mortar]

@analog mirage While I think you had some good ideas in there, specifically, this altogether sounds like massssssive overkill(imo anyways)...

I think some of the ideas you had were pretty good. Personally I particularly like the idea of slight direct buffs from being around a corpse, like a slight bump to bite and charge bite. The other stuff, as far as bones, bleed, and scent dont sound unreasonable or broken...

Probably need to find a more specific sweet spot for some numbers, and idk how big of a buff these would really mean, but might be a little op as presented(whats ceras bite/max charge currently? Hows the bleed gonna pan out with cera vs raptor? It shouldnt be like immune to bleed essentially or anything silly like that, although I def dont mind it being more resistant!)

The bile thing sounds totally broken(to me), especially requiring dinosaurs to go to salt. Imo that would make cera the most broken trollish mess imaginable... maybe a weakned version of what you described. Make it harder to actually apply, but make the penalty both a little stronger(than it is as is now, not than you described), but especially with/by your idea about debuffs.... But they should have chances or something to heal or cure it some other way than going to salt.

If you did this, make it so going to salt would fix it faster and be worth it, but also dont make it so they HAVE to go to salt or they cant heal ever.

That just sounds totally toxically and trollishly broken(again, imo)

Idk how hard or what the issues with RNG type stuff is on a server/game like this, but I think things like some sort of checked RNG type mechanic for healing from things like illnesses, particularly from things like bile, but even maybe just in general.... and for other things too that would probably alot more fickle and harder to implement.... like adding knock off chance with bucking!(I really think if this could work, itd fix the bucking balance) would be neat and cool

not to call you trollish at all or suggest that was the goal..... rather people who like to troll could abuse it easily ****

[analog mirage]

I mean Cerato can’t choose its fights. Almost everything can run it down with ease. When we have even bigger stuff like allo, Maia, Alberto etc. Cerato is gonna have an even worse time against them. So I want Cerato to play into what it’s good at. Scavenging for food and supposed to be punisher. Ceras health at 1.3T is far too squishy for its bleed resistance to be going down at 50% health which is 650. It’s very easy to lower its health where it almost never gets to have its bleed resistance used

So you have an animal that is slow, fairly small and only gets its resilience around bodies.

So to compensate Cerato should have the bigger punishing abilities to make people not encouraged to just push around as they please

[analog mirage]

Yes people COULD use it for trolling. But that’s why Cerato is as slow as it is. To prevent it from doing so. The issue I see atm is it’s slow and on the squishier side but lacks anything that makes it punishing for going toe to toe with it

Everything can either run away or just be big enough where they can kill it easily

Currently It doesn’t pick and choose its fights, but it also doesn’t have the kit to punish people

You could potentially lower its speed to 39 to compensate

[unique mortar]

I mean, as with many playables, when either outnumbered, or encountering a simply 'stronger' playable, things like playstyle and environment and choices tend to be determinant to me. People talk sometimes like everything is a superflat world, but unless its for a body, cera should be trying not to get caught out. In a corner, even without a body, cera is very good IMO.... its ability to punish people come from its kit, and IF you play to its kit. If you play it like a not scavenger, it shouldnt be unreasonable for cera to be taken down easily by bigger things or large packs... As is I feel like cera isnt THAT slow... it can definitely usually get away from most things without dying even in a field, except maybe FG carno. In a corner, stacking bleed on it is very hard, especially without taking loses, and even if a much larger Carno can face tank it, if hes forced to puke first, let alone take much damage, its either not worth it, or a very risky venture.

Im not saying your wrong. Id need to think about it, but I do think it sounds like you want Cera to be better in just no frills direct combat... and mayyyybe it could use a SLIGHT buff(if charge bite damage still bugged atm?) but.... I dont think its weak. In fact, even ignoring that it can eat everything , IMO cera is the easiest strongest playable rn that isnt super specialized(deino... and even thats situational)

I think a good compromise on the bleed thing was half the bleed resistence from 50% to 25%?(maybe thats needlessly taxing mechanically, so something that works out like that wouldnt be totally broken)

I dont think Cera is slow. In fact, I think for game feel and balance its good its as fast as it is, but I think its unrealistically quick honestly. Also, I do think Cera even now can punish things, especially if it plays to its strengths and doesnt overextend carelessly. I also think that if a Cera does overexetend it should be the only thing getting punished

**** it shouldnt be totally impossible to kill it, even when its made tactical errors, even if you have a large pack or much larger/fg playable without getting punished. /it shouldnt be garaunteed to be so punishing that nothing ever interacts with it....

It could use a slight buff tho cause its playstyle and stats rn make it feel... odd

Its eat anything is what keeps it thriving atm*

[analog mirage]

Lemme take a look at the current roster:
Omni can outspeed it, dilo can outspeed it, Carno can outspeed it, Pachy can fracture it, Teno can simply kick it once or twice and leave it heavily wounded.

Literally everything that isn’t hypsi has a way to just push the Cerato around. Yes cera shouldn’t be as well against groups of players but 2 raptors can already bring a cera to half health with two pounces getting rid of its bleed resistance

[unique mortar]

it isnt a direct contest XD can it make it from a vulnerable place to the treeline, or to a place where it can defend itself? Carno might be able to outspeed it but certainly not outstam it at all. Dilo should be able to outrun it and omni too...

teno kick is silly rn XD

[analog mirage]

I’d argue cera also cannot punish well. Sure I can vomit and get bit once or twice. But after that I am in the same state I was in before and continue to pummel it as Teno/carno. The only things that actively get “punished” are omni, dilo, Pachy who just aren’t very Tanky in the first place

[unique mortar]

2 raptors bring cera to half health with 2 pounces?

[analog mirage]

Yup

[unique mortar]

each? tap pounces? that dont sound correct, but maybe

If that is true, and even just 4 tap pounces, then it needs more bleed res... but that hasnt been my observation in previous patches. Aint done or seen alot of omni vs cera this patch, but dunno if/what changed

[analog mirage]

Cera has slightly more Stamina than Carno. But it doesn’t matter because Carno makes far more distance with its speed. So it always will outpace you

[analog mirage]

It’s 2 raptors using 50% of their stam roughly

[unique mortar]

I dont think this is true, but again... your misunderstaning how that works for the carno. that means the carno can make no mistakes, and still isnt promised to come out a victor.... You also shouldnt be letting the carno catch you out where it can charge you or abuse it mobility

[unique mortar]

Oh, thats a massive amount of pounce XD.... knock em off and eat em

[analog mirage]

Cera is a “visually” big creature and has a large hitbox. Due to being so slow you also can’t make much distance when Carno moves faster than your Cerato can turn and you’ll always get hit by charge

[unique mortar]

XD lol. def shouldnt be letting that happen by any means... if 2 fg raptors pounce for half their stam unanswered, mistakes were made :-p

[analog mirage]

Tbf bucking is overtuned atm

As in it does pretty much nothing

[unique mortar]

If your by trees, water, rocks, hills.... what a cera should consider its lifelines this isnt a problem

bucking is useless af XD

garaunteed to die XD... basically saying pls kill me faster

I think if they added a chance to knock the thing off, and idk if or how it works, but give it a similar cost for bucking one or two things, it can be used ICE, or to tryn trade ur stam for more of the group hunting yous stam.... but bucking is no good for nothing atm XD

[analog mirage]

I’m all for using your enviorment to your surroundings. But Cerato who is literally supposed to punish people for walking up to it shouldn’t need to always rely on it to survive. Sure against a group of things it should use everything it can. But against a single Carno it really shouldn’t

[unique mortar]

It can leave cover.... for a body XD

[analog mirage]

Do you know how often Cerato happens to find a body while in the middle of combat?

Cause it’s not often

[unique mortar]

No, you only leave the cover for the body in the first place

as a scavenger, it should be sticking mostly to the edges

imo... to me that works and makes sense... It can still easily bully omni or dilo. The pounce thing... use a rock or tree or water or mud and knock them down

it can still hunt small-medium ish things, albiet it isnt specialized for it

shrug I do think alot of the ideas you have are decent

the needing salt sickness sounds too heavy to me

[analog mirage]

You could just make it where it takes longer to heal after you vomit

[unique mortar]

and maybe some of the numbers you suggested mighhhht be a little too much? mayyybe? idk even... But I do think the cera could use some love/buffs

particularly around corpses

[analog mirage]

Cause as it stands: vomit on its own isn’t very impactful. It’s not something that punishes you too hard

[unique mortar]

That would make it much more balanced imo

and probably be simple and easier to implement even

than anythng like an RNG to heal, like I said***

[analog mirage]

Tbf that’s also due to a lack of salt rocks around

Which could be easily fixed

[unique mortar]

XD shrug fair enough XD

[analog mirage]

But fighting a Cerato should go like this: At first not much is gonna happen. You’ll trade blows and if you have a plan to take down the cera swiftly you’ll be fine.

If you stay around fighting the Cerato for too long/the cera plays smart and forced you to play the long game by biting and waiting you out with jukes. You’ll be in a worse spot and therefor punished for fighting it. The Cerato has the advantage and will likely win if you continue fighting

It definitely shouldn’t be a “I hit you once and you are getting tons of debuffs” just a punisher for things that don’t respect it’s space

If you walk away from the cera you will be fine. If you fight it, you will have to play smart if you dont wanna risk death

Honestly it would be hard to troll as it because everything can simply walk away from it or take it down swiftly

Of course Mixpacking will always be a thing but at the end of the day I feel balancing everything around not being used for that has its limits before the playable just doesn’t have much to it

[unique mortar]

I mean, superficially I think that is how it works. I think were really quibbling about at what point you can or cant take it, if its even ever worth it, and how punishing making mistakes with it are... If your point is its not punishing enough right now..... ehhhhh.... I really think thats a result of making mistakes in how its played.... but I do think it could stand a slight buff in general, and I think the way its punishment mechanics work could use a touch up

so like.... slightly XD

very slightly.... but I also think how to buff it is small buffs and tweaks all around, rather than a big buff to any one thing **I dont think its in a horrible place rn

just think it could for sure be improved, both for those playing it, and for how it feels as far as realism fighting against it

right now its kinda, it made you puke or it didnt, and your fine, dont let it bite u again, or "well dang :I"

[unique mortar]

They track you for freaking ever

[unique mortar]

which I dont think is unreasonable or unrealistic***

Half the time you gotta run to the other dang side of the map to get away from the dang things >.>

[keen plover]

Cera isn't slow. It's "slow" compared to literally the fastest creatures the game will have. It's barely slower than teno and its run time is pretty comparable.

Cera imo shouldn't be defending against allo

bile debuffs include: attack damage lowered, damage taken from attacks increased, stamina consumption increased

All these stacked is overkill as well.

There are a lot of decent parts, but a lot of it just makes it OP

[dusky surge]

yea, the cerato changes put forward massively shift cera to a nightmarishly broken territory

unless you intended to massively reduce its speed, i cant see why you'd do this

hell, cerato is not ANYWHERE near a position balance-wise where it'd be considered needing THAT MANY buffs

[coarse blaze]

I have no idea why people are suddenly wanting to change cera, I genuinely think it's fine how it is mostly.

It's like all the re-works for troodon when I think troodon fairs pretty well, sure it could use some more love in some places but overall I like how it functions and it kills just fine.

[uncut trellis]

It’s nv is too good rn imo

I was fine with it having poor nv, just needed a slight boost in brightness you could at least see where you were standing

[unique mortar]

Right... I really wish theyd maybe just tweak some aspects of it than rework it tbh. I also dont think cera needs anything, but I think it would both be easier and better just to tweak things slightly than change them entirely shrug

[unique mortar]

Are you saying you think its night vision is inappropriately unbalanced, or you think thats just more realistic?

[uncut trellis]

I think it’s inappropriately balanced, I think it shouldn’t be this good

[unique mortar]

@uncut trellis"the turn radius makes carnos very easy to dodge despite their speed. It for some reason feels so much clunkier to play than it used to be. There’s also the fact turning just a little too far seems to make you loose your speed, and you just go back to walking, tbh not sure what’s going on or the technicalities of this." 100% imo

"But carno back in update 5 had a slightly better turn radius but worse acceleration than current carno" Is that true? Im not saying your wrong... It doesnt feel like it accelerates fast to me, but I may be misunderstanding how its working based on how it feels XD

****the turn part is def true I think... the acceleration just doesnt feel super fast to me rn, but maybe it is shrug ?

[dusky surge]

it has instant accel

[unique mortar]

Oh :I

hmm... maybe its just how that affects turning? idk... feels... clunky

which maybe makes it feel slow somehow? shrug

I have to slow to a walk so much to turn O.o

shrug doesnt seeeem like insta accel, but in a straight line mayb... Ill have to check it out and tryn pay more careful attention

[coarse blaze]

It was incredibly poor before but I don't hate the idea of some creatures having less visibility than others; I remember specifically waiting for night previously to hunt ceras but playing cera during that time wasn't ideal. I'm all for tweaking NV between creatures however so long as no one ends up blind.

[unique mortar]

I was gonna say, before it was like... unplayable for 3-6mins/hrs of the day/24min cycle

although having some things, particularly things with good scent, have poor vision

sounds immersive and balancing and such

**gives you a little more room to play around making it stronger and therefore more unique/specialized in other areas and ways or environments/contexts, encouraging more specific ideally immersive playstyles, without making it unbalanced or breaking things

[uncut trellis]

I think all creatures minimum should be able to see where they’re standing

[unique mortar]

What? You dont think some things should be totally blind? >.>

[uncut trellis]

https://tenor.com/view/mouxy-cotorep-aveugle-debile-esquiver-gif-20546128

[uncut trellis]

But no I don’t think anything should be to the level of Cerato and Stego from the update before

[unique mortar]

Cmon! They were fine! XD

How can you be scared if your able to see things? .... pure darkness... literally black screen. Best horror game XD

**I joke, but to be fair having a few hours of nothing but darkness and sounds as a small/med sized stego is kinda terrifying >.>

[uncut trellis]

https://tenor.com/view/dark-gif-22147668

[unique mortar]

I feel this, in my soul XD

[uncut trellis]

There comes a point where you just see nothing, and it becomes more frustrating than scary

Plus I think this fits better for human gameplay than Dino

[unique mortar]

Particularly when, although probably not only when(theres probably some perfect light touch that Im unqualified to casually intuit), its like a long time of sitting in the dark over and over, and the fear wears totally away

and you just... cant do things, especially, but not only when its stuff you need to do and could if you could see

[uncut trellis]

Exactly

[unique mortar]

like making it to water or something.

end up falling off a small cliff and dying cause your in your 4-6th min/hour of darkness and your thirsty af now or whatever

it is better now atleast* XD thankfully!

*I jokingly discuss... Im not complaining!

[golden coral]

Honestly how I felt as stego. There's little to worry about when you don't feel like you can do much if you're found anyway, might as well find a corner and afk for the night and just hope for the best.

[unique mortar]

XD I pay more attention to the time of day now, but I didnt used to... Id end up in silly places looking for food, hiding in a bush somewhere in the open

Now I find a place where I can make them approach only my tail, and even in the pitch black, I worry less

atleast now its not so dark for so long that your dying of thirst stumbling in the dark, and you filled up right before sunset XD

[unique mortar]

Definitely had a few scary nights, but no regrets! It was a cool experience... Like if a little stego got separated or something at night. Felt very immersive shrug

I assume irl little stegos wouldnt usually be alone*

[leaden remnant]

not so sure about that

cera is the most difficult dino to bleed out as a raptor not taking deino into account

[brave estuary]

@uncut trellis They made the idle animations "still" and I'm not a huge fan of it

Omni's posture looks painful currently

[frail bobcat]

It looks so bad

[brave estuary]

Yeah, I think they tried to replicate legacy's idle

[frail bobcat]

just make it idle actually lively

the way it just stands there

[brave estuary]

The animation before was good

[uncut trellis]

I’d fine with Omni being a bit more still cause it fits its personality, but not this still

[rigid tulip]

Why?

its larger, faster, and it has an ability that is meant to knock down animals that are smaller and slower than it

[frail bobcat]

teno is more capable at brawling

[rigid tulip]

what else would kill teno rn lol? raptors and cera only, and cera is almost suicide to fight a teno. I don't see why a medium sized pursuit predator could not fight a small-medium sized running-based herbivore

[frail bobcat]

And they want carno to be mostly hunting stuff that is dilos or smaller

[rigid tulip]

lets not pretend like it will be able to fight anything larger than carno, it serves the role of the gazelle

[rigid tulip]

this carno will starve to death

[frail bobcat]

where was it said it was a gazelle?

[frail bobcat]

its hunger values will be adjusted accordingly

[rigid tulip]

What i mean is that it is a small-medium sized herbiviore that can defend itself against things slightly smaller than it/similar size, but runs from anything larger using its good running ability

I think that the matchup should favor teno, however if a teno is out in the open and the carno is full stam, it should probably lose

[frail bobcat]

why tho? teno is amazing at brawling and carno is made to not really be able to take on tenos solo

[rigid tulip]

nothing larger than carno will lose to teno

carno is the largest possible thing teno wouuld probably be able to kill on the roster

[frail bobcat]

probably, but it can just run

[rigid tulip]

All I am saying is that the largest predator that preys upon an herbivore should probably not be one of the easiest to fight off

[frail bobcat]

carno is not gonna really prey on teno anymore tho

carno is solely gonna be focused on prey that is signicantly smaller than it

[rigid tulip]

I know this isnt a proper balance perspective: but that is just genuinely lame

more interaction between players = more fun

[frail bobcat]

two carnos are still gonna be a threat to tenos tho

[rigid tulip]

I can understand this if more prey/predators of similar sizes are added, but rn, carno cannot under any circumstances afford to have one less prey item

it already starves by far the most out of any dino

furthermore, teno should under no circumstances have less predators than it does now

[frail bobcat]

well, we dont know when the carno rework will actually drop

sorry, forgot a word

[rigid tulip]

I completely understand it being a small game hunter, however imo teno certainly qualifies as small game when you look at the entirety of the future roster

its essentially the smallest mid tier, and carno is one of the larger midtiers

In a facetank, teno should still absolutely destroy it. But rn there is literally nothing carno can even do

[shadow vortex]

Just use your mobility, fast 30 degrees turns, drift, and baits to beat a teno as a carno. It’s not an easy matchup, but still a possible one if the environment and your control of the dinosaur are decent enough. Teno has extremely large windows on its primary attacks compared to other roster (~3 seconds for the tail and ~1,5 for the kicks), so just utilize it.

I usually sit on “Free admin” servers and already have seen multiple carno players that decapitate tenos, literally. It’s not that common to meet such players on Officials though, but it’s easy to explain since there are mostly average (and below) skilled players, who don’t wish to train and find the best tactics.

[rigid tulip]

kick hitbox is ridiculous and every time he knicks you, you will eat 3x the damage you deal when he makes a mistake

[shadow vortex]

That’s due to desync, it can happen to any other playable.

Carno’s ram hitbox isn’t nicely polished either.

[rigid tulip]

agreed, it is ridiculous to deal with coupled with the stupid damage if your a small dino running away from it

[slim dragon]

Both those statements are wrong
And the question isn't wether teno is small prey compared to the full roster, but if it's small prey compared to a carno
Which it isn't, because they're pretty much the same size

[dusky surge]

the concept of "this bigger therefor should scare smaller thing" is absurd to me

in that case, why does raptor punch up?

[slim dragon]

It's not a matter of size, it's a matter of being a carnivore
Carnivore should scare herbivore

[keen plover]

😰

Idk if they will downsize it 100% but man

Teno possibly being in carno's range 😔

[dusky surge]

I mean, he’s likely talking paleo-wise. It’s no mystery teno is oversized

But downsizing teno would be fine, if compensated with something like more aquatic capability

[keen plover]

yeah could work out. Shouldn't be a major downsize if they go through with it though

[slim dragon]

I mean, troodon, omni, beipi and cera also have artificially inflated weight values

[dusky surge]

Beipi has the opposite

[keen plover]

That's true, but if it was about being fair then troodon wouldn't have more hp than a beipi while still being a visually 40kg animal

[slim dragon]

I mean, beipi shouldn't weigh 90kg for the size it is

[leaden remnant]

however it turns like a boat and the ram is absolutely useless against tenos

it is made to suck against teno in all possible ways

[leaden remnant]

yes raptors and cera only literally

[leaden remnant]

it does not serve the role of a gazelle it serves the role of an oversized zebra

mess up get your head kicked in your ribcage

[mint star]

i dont know why i found this so funny

[regal tulip]

true, using ram in anything more than a 1v1 is a death sentence but carno is more than capable of killing a teno. The instant acceleration makes it easy to attack after you bait a slam or kick, its even possible to kill stegos right now

[leaden remnant]

well yes but it requires unholy levels of skill, keep in mind these bois are made to kill carnos

[regal tulip]

i mean idk if crouch stopping is a new mechanic or if i just didnt know about it last year but I'd say using it makes killing tenos nearly as easy as they were pre charge update

not accidently sliding into a slam or stego tail is a game changer

[alpine plover]

Feedback: Deinos can now not see a thing underwater at night. Died many times of hunger because i couldnt see a thing in my own invironment. And now young deinos cant even survive from larger ones by running away on land because of the new lunge that for some reason also works on land and is so spammable there is no hope in trying to outrun them. If you spawn at night as deino, suicide and wait till its day or it is unplayable, and even then.

[regal tulip]

still easier and more fun to hunt tenos and stegos as cera tho

[regal tulip]

actually crouch stopping seems to have been removed, just played carno to test it

[leaden remnant]

it has been removed yes

[rigid tulip]

Numbers + it is meant to hunt larger prey

Teno is essentially the smallest animal you will see in herds in an open grassland. I think that it would make logical sense for carno to have some more success against it than it does now, since carno is a pursuit predator that is intended to hunt prey smaller than itself

To clarify: i think raptor pounce is broken rn, and I also think that herbivores should get more love. Im just talking about these dinos in concept here

The matchup should be teno favored yes, but as of rn the carno player has to be significantly better than the teno player just to perform worse. Which for two similar sized dinos in such a small roster seems like a balancing issue.

I dont understand what is wrong with returning the matchup to its early evrima days where tenos could slam you out of charge if they timed it right and destroy your hp, or where carnos could charge you and really do some damage if you got caught off guard. (Nerf charge dmg tho obv)

[distant torrent]

because the servers won’t allow it. something changed one update back on Spiro and charge kept going through teno’s slam because of it. maybe it’d be different now but I severely doubt it given how people are still being hit from a few feet away still and taking full damage on tail shots lol

the dreadful desync ig

it was consistently a problem until teno and carno got their ram vs slam matchup some special attention

[rigid tulip]

wdym? a problem before or after gateway era? I remember the matchup being very balanced and the slam was prescise around the earlier updates

[rigid tulip]

that special attention completely deleted the skill on the part of the teno, now by simply pressing the slam button you are guaranteed to always stop a charge

0 timing is necessary, you get hyperarmor

[distant torrent]

iirc it was around update 6 or 6.5 Spiro

so pre gateway but it carried over into gateway until the interaction was given attention

[rigid tulip]

i do remember tenos being essentially unable to stop charges then

[distant torrent]

yea my only guess is the funky servers

so as far as I’m aware that delicate show of skill won’t be able to make a return unless they somehow manage to make everything be how it was pre update 6 or whenever the ram vs slam problem first began

[cobalt dagger]

Hey, I've hardly ever seen any dilos - or at least never any grown ones, now and again you hear the echo of a baby dilo trilling in rail access - however I feel like raptors are EVERYWHERE. And when they jump on your back, I don't know how to get them off. Are they gonna make bucking more effective or do we just die when raptors tail-pounce us?

[latent bay]

@dusky surge random question, what's with downvoting ptera stam buff suggestions?

What's the harm in it? Ptera isn't rlly fighting anything atm yet ptera is super stam reliant. + on a natural perspective it'd only make sense, tons of especially seafaring birds can go days without resting, why not let Pteranodon fly without redt for a while too?

[spring field]

dilos hitbox seemd much small to me

some dilos cannot even attack other dilos

what u guys think abt that

i didnt see anything about this at balance feedback channel

[shadow vortex]

#general-feedback message

[vale brook]

it can fly across the entire map with a half bar of stamina

[alpine plover]

As the person said above if you know how to manage your stamina fine, you can travel across the map with only half a bar of stamina left, ptera doesn't need stamina buffs, people just don't know how to fly (need to constantly rest) and then view it as a problem rather than learning to fly itself.

[latent bay]

@alpine plover ...that all actually checks out, nvm then

[vale brook]

id argue the stam regen is a little bit of an issue, because 4 minutes does feel a bit long. something more like 3 would feel more appropriate

[muted sigil]

This wounded effect is very buffed, it's taking a long time to come off

[keen plover]

Imo it shouldn't really effect damage though. The other stuff is whatever

[muted sigil]

Basically, whoever is injured, is dead, penalizes 50% of the strength and takes years to heal

It's every nonsense thing they add, they should ask the community to see if they approve

[dusky surge]

They should absolutely not do that

That's not how you make good games

[muted sigil]

I don't believe that someone who plays the isle would want to take -50% of their strength and take ages for the effect to wear off and a longer time to heal.

[muted sigil]

It's because they don't play the island, they just add things to make the gameplay worse

[dusky surge]

they literally do

also wounded doesn't instantly half your damage lol

[muted sigil]

So I ask you, how is a person with an effect like that going to beat someone else by attacking?

[muted sigil]

cause, as soon as I get this effect, it doesn't take 1 minute and you are left with 50% less strength

If the effect lasted a short time, it would be great, but it's taking around 20-30 minutes for the effect to come off, and then start to heal, which is ridiculous

To have a complete cure, it takes almost 1 hour, with the perfect diet

It was nothing less to be expected, they screwed up the game with fatal errors

[cosmic pelican]

It only halves your damage when youre below ~10% hp

Each health % you lose below 50hp will take ~1% of your damage

[muted sigil]

@cosmic pelicanIn a fight, you usually have 20-30% health at most against another adult, but ''wounded'' is still an unnecessary debuff

In my fight I was completely healed and even so I took this debuff with a ''weak'' fight

Well, in the end it doesn't matter, I'm waiting for the P.O.T price to drop so I can leave here, the isle was very disappointing

[muted sigil]

I just don't understand why they need to add a debuff like that, there was no need, it just favors those who are in a group and those who are alone lose

[cosmic pelican]

It rewards good ambushes and outplaying your opponent all while discouraging fights to the death.

[cosmic pelican]

If youre outnumbered the wounded status doesnt even make a difference, if you stay and fight you wouldve died either way with, or without it, because it doesnt hinder your ability to run.

[leaden remnant]

sit down and it takes 15 mins

[rigid tulip]

Democracy =/= best outcomes

I guarantee you most players would just select for things that make the game easier, and make the more popular dinos better and the less popular ones worse

Evrima would unironically turn into faster paced legacy

[vale brook]

the community would ruin this game faster than the asteroid killed the dinosaurs

[young hamlet]

I feel like a large reason why balance feels so off is because some dinosaurs feel balanced around the "finished product" of the isle, whereas others seem balanced around the current state of the game. As much as I would love new dinosaurs, I would much rather a decent chunk of time be spent on improving upon the ones that feel left behind that are already in the game.

[dusky surge]

This is literally one of my biggest complaints with stego balance v deino balance

Deino is already basically set up to survive anything the roster throws at it

Stego is built for the current roster. Throw a rex at it and it's going to crumble

[fiery shard]

they cant grab them
#balance-feedback message

but deino can grab stego if it swims in water...

[fiery shard]

Deino is already basically set up to survive anything the roster throws at it
don't exaggerate the power of deino please. this croc can't survive even a minimal attack if it's far away from the water. it will run out of water in 3-5 minutes and start taking thirst damage

[dusky surge]

Then don’t go on scenic hikes instead of staying in the water, where you’re set up to survive anything the roster throws at you

I don’t see what thirst has to do with my point

[fiery shard]

i may be wrong, but I don't see a problem with deino being strong in water. it's his habitat and he's good at it

[dusky surge]

I didn’t say it was a problem

Being prepared to survive in the future roster is a good thing. It’s why stego is bad as it is, because unlike deino, it isn’t future proofed

[vital marsh]

Deinosuch should not touch Rex at all as they have different habitats, on land Deino is no rival to Rex, just as Rex is no rival to Deino in the water. Terrestrial dinos have to deal with Rex

[leaden remnant]

this is how certain dinos got nerfed to the absolute ground

#balance-feedback message terrain is the risk

miss and fall off a cliff

cant pounce at all on half of the map

[azure summit]

Will mutations affect the game's balance?

[tall bronze]

Most definitely.
Good or bad? We'll have to see.

[distant torrent]

I genuinely hope mutations don’t touch health, stamina, and scent (scent can honestly be debated ngl) at all and instead just touch on survival aspect changes like the ability to drink salt water or the ability to get more colors outside of the playable color palette (please no neon colors )

the moment mutations affect health and stamina is the moment certain mutations become meta just like the old stamina diet (which should’ve never been a thing)

[leaden remnant]

they will

at least im 99% sure they will

[distant torrent]

will..

have only survival aspect changes or..

touch on stamina and health?

[leaden remnant]

im 99.9% sure it'll touch both stam and health

[alpine plover]

I’d stand on 95% percent

[leaden remnant]

and that is why i cant wait for em

[dusky surge]

why would you want that lol

[alpine plover]

I’m pretty sure their being sarcastic

[fiery shard]

i saw somewhere first review of mutations and their names. unfortunately almost all mutations are about stam and health

[dusky surge]

thats not how i remember them

no mutation modifies health at all

the main issues i have are the movespeed and damage mutations

[fiery shard]

well. then we'll just have to wait for the release. because I saw a review of mutation that reduces the chance of broken bones and partial immunity to poison dilo/troo

i hope that's not the case

[dusky surge]

a review?

[leaden remnant]

why would i not want that

[leaden remnant]

no im being absolutely fr

faster health regen, faster stam regen, what's better than that? nothing

[dusky surge]

diets lol

[leaden remnant]

diets do very little

being able to pick faster health regen or faster stam regen allows me to not have to use 30% of stam on a pounce that does little bleed and then watch as the mfer just speeds away from me knowing that i cant keep up

[slim dragon]

And that's the exact reason why Wave (as myself) don't want that
That's the same thing as stam diet all over again

[leaden remnant]

well idk what to tell you but i cant wait for that

[slim dragon]

You get a lot of options, but actually you don't because there is no reason to pick anything other than the meta ones that increase your health, speed, damage or stam

So that's just... powercreep

And the illusion of choice

[bright oasis]

And then the other guy has that same mutation and then nothing changes. Back to square 1 of you complaining about stam

[leaden remnant]

that doesn't even make sense

what the other person picks is not even my problem

i dont want to outstam the other person in every single way i want my stam to not regen .30% per second

[slim dragon]

But that's a balance issue

[leaden remnant]

well doesn't change anything for me

it's clear that stam as it is won't be changed anytime soon

so any chance of having better stam regen considering the stupid thresholds n stuff is amazing for me

[slim dragon]

I'd rather have mutations as a mechanic not be wasted into that

And I don't see what the problem is with stam, apart from the thresholds

[leaden remnant]

the thresholds

they dont allow anyone to have an engaging fight

instead you are forced to keep your stam at 60% which is absolutely stupid

not to mention that the regen is mega slow for what the thresholds allow you to do

if there were no thresholds, it would be way better

[slim dragon]

There were no thresholds in the beginnings of gateway

I wouldn't say it was better

[leaden remnant]

that's fine

im just saying, thresholds are a game ruiner

or not really a "game ruiner" but awfully annoying

so if there's any way to make them less annoying, i'll take it

[dusky surge]

i hate the idea of mutations just basically powercreeping dinos

[slim dragon]

I'm pretty certain mutations aren't going to change this

[dusky surge]

mutations are supposed to diversify survival strategies

some of my faves are the ones that make eating also grant small portions of thirst, allowing you to read human texts, (supposedly) being able to see infra-red (allowing you to see human NV lights), stuff like that

cannibal is also a cool one, as well as the drinking salt water one

so much cool things can be done rather than "stam better, health better, damage better"

[leaden remnant]

they support different lifestyles

action-packed, relaxed, etc

[slim dragon]

And a mutation that supports every lifestyle (ex: better stam) is powercreep

[leaden remnant]

not at all

you can get the saltwater one and live in the coast without being disturbed

or you can get a faster health during rain for example and engage in action

[slim dragon]

Or you can get the stam one and be better in every situation, including on coast because you can outcompete other coast dinosaurs and migrate easier

[leaden remnant]

wont be able to drink there then

[slim dragon]

A small price to pay in order to be straight-out better in every other situation

[leaden remnant]

not if there won't be any situation 🤷‍♂️

[slim dragon]

what

[leaden remnant]

there aint other coast dinosaurs excepting ptera so how are you gonna outcompete when there's food everywhere

get saltwater one live in the coast

or get saltwater and stam

[slim dragon]

get killed by someone who picked the better option

[leaden remnant]

not if you're literally flying

[slim dragon]

The entire game isn't just about ptera

[leaden remnant]

im giving the example of ptera

if you want an action-packed lifestyle, get stam, get health, etc

and if you don't, pick others

[slim dragon]

But then I also need the stam or health buffs if I don't want an action-packed lifestyle so I don't get killed by those who picked them

Unless the option is "play meta or be coastal" which is a meme at this point

https://tenor.com/view/the-isle-kaperoo-gif-23826254

[leaden remnant]

you don't need them but you can pick them to aid you in future fights

[dusky surge]

Better stam > basically any hyper-specific niche

Source: Diet system in U6.5

You COULD pick anything else, but why would you when triple stam trumps everything

[dusky surge]

"If you want to be better in the meta of survival, pick the powerful damage mutations, or be a loser and pick something that will rarely have value"

Unless I'm a dryo, ptera or other non-combat animal, why would I not prioritise damage, health or stam

Straight stat buffs always beat niche situational benefits

[alpine plover]

people seem to dislike the idea of the salt water mutation they’re reasoning being, “it invalidates proto’s niche” as if drinking salt water via a mutation completely invalidates a playable.

[dusky surge]

thats silly

[shadow vortex]

There's still can be a limit to drinking via that mutation.

[dusky surge]

why would there be though?

[slim dragon]

Because drinking saltwater would also fill all your 3 nutrients

[alpine plover]

I would if the devs actually know there is organic matter in salt water lmao

[slim dragon]

@alpine plover I may have a solution to your problem
Play something other than deino

[alpine plover]

Nope

[slim dragon]

Hmm, I should have guessed you would have answered that

[dusky surge]

i only play deino
i dislike playing deino

the deino main

[frail bobcat]

womp womp, enjoy playing deino then. its only gonna get worse from here

[golden coral]

So, you don't enjoy deino gameplay, but you insist on playing it anyway? Is there any actual balance issue, or do you simply find the playstyle unfun and boring?

[frail bobcat]

he has to actually do things and be skilled to get kills now

[hidden kettle]

well ..

1. they are meant to canni way more than they actually do.
2. You can still get into EVERY water place on the map as FG Deino. (just very difficult on some places but doable as some croc can prove ya)
3. even with that splash sound bug ( which should get a fix for sure) you can get your food since some always get risky for water.
   Life as Deino should be the hardest of all for being the APEX predator right now. All you gotta fear are bigger deinos or a team against you. Croc is just a 8 ton Cerato that has less to fear .. change ma mind 😄
   Edit: you guys still have the food bug abuse to get diet from nondiet ... a gift they took from cera after Stresstest (reported that myself during stresstest since no one wanted to). Crocs keepd it til now.. (reported hope for a change tho) `:D
   croc complains beside that water sound bug are just enjoyment to me for that xD

[rigid tulip]

Would you guys perhaps support a mutation for cera that could somehow allow it to play even better in the water? Or do you think that these are too drastic of playstyle alterations in mutations?

[slim dragon]

Depends on what you mean by "play even better in the water"
If it's increased swim speed, it's fine
If it's the ability to lunge and dorwn other players like deino does it's too drastic

[leaden remnant]

well, besides deino, it's teh best water boi

super fast swim speed and alt bite

[dawn coral]

If you can't kill things as a croc/ Deino then you are doing it wrong. I kill things on a regular quite easily like 80% of the time. This complaint of the lunge is a non factor due to the stam drain applied to the bite and drowning target. Silent assassin sure is ever seen a real gator hunt under water, it doesn't make a lot of noise you can't see it and it can very much see you. Really needs a changing is how players migrate and the migration patterns themselves. Fewer of them at once and having them cover more space around the map would fix like 90% of the issues. Things they could do to make the deino more playable would be to create less safe drinking areas. Also, the amount of noise the croc/ deino makes should be more dependent on factors of the water, are you closer to the surface or the bottom etc. obvisously though the sound bug does stink quite a bit.

[tight cove]

I like how upset ppl get at the ambush underwater predator for being extremely effective just like how it is irl, wild animals must feel like this too, I guess there’s a reason why they hardly changed in millions of years.💀

[dawn coral]

right

[rigid tulip]

all i was thinking max is reduced stam consumption from swimming, and at max maybe even a dive (with like very limited oxygen, and increased stam drain underwater, meaning it could only be underwater for like 10 sec) but that seems a bit drastic lol

[slim dragon]

I like how people forget The Isle is a game and not real life

[tight cove]

You know I have talked about deino plenty of times now, and the fact that ppl are still complaining even though we have a new map now which is not advantageous to deino players and the fact that deinos growth has been nerfed goes to show how ppl will never be satisfied and want the playable to be handicapped

Some of these people are so greedy and just want everything removed from deino because they chose to drink in a middle of a hotspot 😂

[slim dragon]

I guess we'll never agree
But being punished with un-counterable instant death for "drinking in the wrong spot" that looks exactly like any other spot and the only way to prevent that being only drinking where a deino cannot possibly be is lame and stupid

The fact deino isn't the easiest creature to grow is already a step in the right direction, but its gameplay (and the way to play around it) is still the most unfair and boring of any game I've played

[keen plover]

Schooling fish makes it still pretty easy to survive with

[tight cove]

Imo opinion that should def be changed there’s no reason why an adult deino should be able to survive on tiny schooling fish they should give like .5 hunger

[tight cove]

So how would you change it? because the vast majority of arguments I have heard end up punishing the deino player for no reason

[slim dragon]

A good start would be to change the lunge into a charged attack
The longer you charge it, the further you can go and the bigger prey you can grab, but it makes a subtle noise/some ripples while charging

[tight cove]

This punishes the deino player trying to ambush someone trying to drink because as soon as someone hears or sees the water ripple there gonna run

Why are we giving ppl an alert that a deino is there?

[slim dragon]

It makes it so ambush is dependent on people being attentive
Of course anything proposed is gonna be a nerf to deino as currently it is god-tier in any situation, bar fighting against things its own size

[slim dragon]

Because every other ambush predator can be detected in some way before it catches you, only deino is free from this rule

But once ambush ability is in a fair and balanced state, other aspects of deino could be buffed

Like, there wouldn't be a need to prevent it from traveling to any water source or staying on land for longer if it wasn't so oppressive on the server by merely existing

[tight cove]

@slim dragon the thing is when ppl are drink water they are always attentive since the camera is literally locked right in front of them so they will always be looking for the deino, also, on your second point deino is the only ambush predator that lives in water so of course you won’t be able to detect it, that’s just how the playable is.

And if you make deino detectable it makes it far harder or almost impossible for a deino to get any kills

I’m sure you remember when deino audio under water was glitched so you could easily hear a deino swimming

[slim dragon]

And if you keep it undetectable there's zero counterplay so it stays just as bad as before and everyone except deino players will keep asking for nerfs

[fallow blaze]

on the subject of boring gameplay:
I think as soon as more semi-aquatic animals come into the game, the gameplay will become a little more interesting.

• Bary is on the roadmap
• According to the concept, Megalania should also be found near water (depending on the grow, it can be anywhere, even on trees)

You could argue that the Deino came out too early because the water biome hardly has any animals worth playing.
in itself it is well made.

[fiery shard]

deino may not be encountered in the game at all. just drink where deino can't go. but it takes an extra 3 minutes to get there. it's better to drink where he is and then cry that deino is too strong. good old-fashioned player logic The Isle

[slim dragon]

Lunge NEEDS a nerf, that is a fact. The real question is, do you prefer it to be nerfed in that you need to play skillfully and setup your ambushes, or do you want it to be nerfed in that if the grabbed player presses E you let them go ?

[tight cove]

I agree

[slim dragon]

The Isle relies on player interaction. However, deino provides none. People say small animals are "wasted server slots" but deino is much more so than any of them, even hypsi. Because you can interact with them, they can be chased, they can get into fights, they can have some special interactions (like hypsi blinding people) deino has none of that.

If deino was removed and replaced with toxic water that has a chance of instantly killing you, the player experience would be the exact same

And I guess people like you would say "toxic water is a good mechanic, just learn the map and drink where the water isn't toxic"

[slim dragon]

Yeah, two more deino fodder

[tight cove]

Wdym by your first point because deino already has to set up its ambushes correctly, if your at the wrong spot or your timing is bad you won’t be able to get a kill

[fallow blaze]

But even with the logged camera while drinking: when you stop drinking, you're still stuck in the animation for a few seconds. enough time for a detected Deino to get one.
so I was killed in East plaines. but I was really happy for the deino because that's rare enough. lol

[slim dragon]

All you have to do is swim underwater in the direction of your prey, and press right click before they've finished drinking
Wow, so much skill

[fiery shard]

ye. that's right. questions?

in any game, there's a hard hero and an easy hero. if you choose the difficult one, that's your problem

[slim dragon]

And when the easy hero is better and stronger than every hard hero it's called a balance issue

[tight cove]

I see your point but you forget that juvi and sub Deinos do provide food if you manage to kill one, and when the other semi aquatics come to the game they will reduce deino numbers even further by killing the small ones and providing people an extra choice to play as like for example beipi.

[slim dragon]

Besides, Deino is an apex. It SHOULDN'T be the easy one

[tight cove]

Nah I wouldn’t say that 💀

[fiery shard]

for some reason the nerf question is always about deino. but with stego with 1250 tail dmg everything is fine, isn't it?

[slim dragon]

Then why do you say that for deino ? The only difference is that you play deino

[slim dragon]

Yes
It's much lower than deino's effective damage of 6k
Also stego isn't invisible
It doesn't have bleed resistance
You're never forced to face the swing headfirst
Actually you're never forced to get close to a stego, ever

[slim dragon]

But for the rest of the playerbase it's the same

[fallow blaze]

But even with the logged camera while drinking: when you stop drinking, you're still stuck in the animation for a few seconds. enough time for a detected Deino to get one.
so I was killed in East plaines. but I was really happy for the deino because that's rare enough. lol
So anybody can't say: deino is detected im safe while drinking.

I called it: i want that challenge.
Cause the easy hero is getting more and more boring.

[tight cove]

Bro if you don’t have full stam you won’t be able to drown anyone, that means if you waste a lot of stam trying to follow someone down the river or something you won’t be able to kill them

[slim dragon]

And ?

[fiery shard]

nah, I see. as soon as it's not about nerf deyno there are a million nuances. The Isle players are The Isle players. okay, this doesn't make any sense. some players will never learn to play without getting killed by a deino

[tight cove]

Deino provides food for the ecosystem if you kill one, and funny enough I’m not even a Deino player anymore I haven’t played deino honestly since the new map dropped.

[slim dragon]

Ok, how do you kill a deino if you're not a deino yourself ?

Every other species plays The Isle together, deinos are playing their own game, alone

[tight cove]

If they are subs or juvis kill them while there on land, or you can kill even an adult on land if you have enough ppl or he’s bad enough or if your a stego.

[slim dragon]

Why would a juvie deino be on land ?

[fiery shard]

where is it written that all species must obligatorily interact? who does the ptero interact with? or is that different?

[tight cove]

They are either traveling or trying to eat

[slim dragon]

They can
You can't interact with a deino unless it's
-Out of water for some unknowable reason, in which case you may watch as it passes
-already lunged you and you are in its mouth

[tight cove]

Ppl manage to kill juvi and sub Deinos that are on land often, you can’t tell me that doesn’t happen

[fiery shard]

who does the ptero interact with?

[slim dragon]

Pteranodon can get into fights and can get killed, especially now that herrera is in the game

[slim dragon]

Anyone except deino

[tight cove]

And when Bary and sucho get added in they will kill juvi and sub Deinos in water

[fiery shard]

deino can get into a fight and be killed by other deinos, stegos or carnos. Problems?

[slim dragon]

Definitely not subs, too big

[slim dragon]

How does a deino get killed by carnos or stegos ?

Unless it's literally doing its best to die

[fiery shard]

are you serious?

[tight cove]

I think a sucho could def kill a sub but it will probably depend on skill or depends on the Deinos weight

[fleet whale]

You're so funny, honestly. You are probably the same player who, after dying from deino, comes to this place again to whine

[slim dragon]

I'm not

[fiery shard]

three deinos are killed by stegos. omg. fantastic

[tight cove]

Bro what? Just a few days ago I was playing as a stego and was drinking at the swamp when a fg deino ambushed me, I ended up killing him and he provided food for ppl

[slim dragon]

That's because that deino was literally trying to die (just like the one in the picture above) or hilariously bad at the game

[fallow blaze]

Nah just wanted to say, there are other players too:

People who say that this is unbalanced and cry about it are players who want to kill a lot players but want to have less risk.

like Lagecy the Rex with the 8-Move

and there are those like me: who want it to be extra difficult because it brings more thrills and because you improve your skills significantly (not talking about only deino, general)

[fleet whale]

and I see that yes. You talk about deino too often. Deino is bad, delete deino, deino does not interact with anyone, and so on

[slim dragon]

I'm not complaining here because I was killed by deino
Actually, ever since the day I started playing The Isle, I've only been killed by a deino twice, and one of them was absolutely my fault.
Doesn't change the playable is a flaw in the game

[keen plover]

All deino needs is changes to schooling fish and then they're pretty much forced into cannibalism. There's also a lot of places to avoid deinos that it's whatever? Every major hotspot has multiple drinking spots to avoid deino

[slim dragon]

Well I'm not gonna change my mind just because I've been told I'm a whiner
I'm not a politician

[fleet whale]

Hahahah

You are funny

[slim dragon]

I wish the solution wasn't "just drink where the water isn't toxic"

[tight cove]

😭

[vital marsh]

[slim dragon]

When you die to a deino, it's never your fault other than "drinked in the wrong spot"
When you survive a deino encounter, it's never your fault either, is just that the deino was awful at the game or bugged out

[keen plover]

Fair but it's effective and you quite literally never have to interact with them. If it was up to me it wouldn't even be a playable

[slim dragon]

You don't understand
Deino being able to oneshot anything without counterplay is VITAL for the game and as a playable

[fleet whale]

Baby, calm down your ardor. They won't change anything at your request anyway.

[vital marsh]

Isn't this screenshot telling you anything?

[slim dragon]

They did before. Besides, I'm not the only one who thinks this way

[tight cove]

Yeah I almost forgot that most of the time the deino pop controls itself through cannibalism

[keen plover]

Tbf it's a failed playable if it can't even do that. Genuinely a mistake to add to the game but it's here

[slim dragon]

Most people who aren't deino mains think the same

[slim dragon]

I think herrera is a great example of a balanced ambush hunter
Lots of killing power, still possible counterplay

[fleet whale]

Namely, they do not play for the deinos and whine at them. I wouldn't be surprised if Deino didn't kill them at all, hahaha

[tight cove]

That is fair but at least there are safe spot to drink so you don’t even have to risk dying

[keen plover]

Literally just nerf schooling fish and 90% of deinos die

[slim dragon]

I don't like the idea of forcing deino into cannibalism either because I think the population of deinos on a server at any given time should be very low, but if they're forced into cannibalism they're not sustainable unless they got friends suiciding themselves to feed them

At least the chaos days of spiro being 50% deinos constantly are gone

[vital marsh]

If you haven't played it for more than 2-3 days, don't touch it, you don't know how to play it, you don't know how to survive, how hard it is to get to hot spots, don't touch it if you don't know its concept

[fleet whale]

I propose to remove stego, which kills 100% of deino in 4-5 hits with its tail, and at the same time deino cannot do anything!

[slim dragon]

But deino can do anything
It can swim away
If it's skilled enough it can kill the stego with bites
And now it can even lunge and drown it !

[tight cove]

There not though at least rn, east plains pond and the south rivers have a lot of food for deino

[fleet whale]

His cerebral cortex is too poorly developed to understand this

[tight cove]

AND swamps to since you can actually drown a stego now

[fleet whale]

Deino can't drag away stego

[slim dragon]

It can since last update

(Not patch, actual update)

Which was a few months ago

[fleet whale]

It looks like you didn't play as Deino, and didn't crash into Stego. Try to grab a stego on land while you crash, and he kills you in 4 hits

[slim dragon]

Yes that's the point

Deino isn't supposed to be fighting away from water
And especially not big things like stego

Or maybe deino should be able to fight off apexes on land as well ?

[tight cove]

Keep in mind that if a deino has enough skill and the stego is bad enough it can absolutely kill a stego

[vital marsh]

Play it for a couple of days, try to survive among your own, or reach the southern river (if you manage to get away from it, I'll give you a medal), try to catch someone because of the audibility of 30-40 meters, absolutely everyone hears you and does not come to the water, try, you will be surprised by its gameplay, it is difficult and difficult to survive on it

[keen plover]

bruh when did they buff the amount you got from schooling fish? It's back up to 7% 💀

it also spawns on you lmaoooooo

[tight cove]

Yeah that’s broken lol

[slim dragon]

Why would I inflict myself with that ? I don't play deino because I don't like its playstyle
I played deino once, it was a cakewalk and mind-numbingly boring, I'm not gonna make that mistake again

[tight cove]

Maybe that’s why I’ve seen a good amount of Deinos lately

[keen plover]

Yeah makes sense

Saw 5 adults chilling together

[vital marsh]

If you don't know his gameplay, don't touch him

[slim dragon]

That's the opposite
I'm not touching deino because I know its gameplay and I know it's not for me
I prefer playing a game

[tight cove]

Me personally I think the fun of deino is after patiently growing for hours and surviving all the other predators, you pull off the perfect ambush but the sit and wait gameplay is def not for everyone

[slim dragon]

I have no issue with people enjoying that playstyle
I have an issue when that playstyle actively ruins the fun of other players
Deino needs less a nerf than a complete rework
I would be fine with it being strong if, again, there was a gameplay behind it
And that if you died to a deino, it was either because the deino played well, or you played wrong
Right now it's none of that

[tight cove]

I agree on the last part you said, the only way to really counter a deino rn is just avoidance

[fiery shard]

I have an issue when that playstyle actively ruins the fun of other players
i don't like the fact that I'm ruining the fun of playing stego, cera, carno and tena. nerf them

[tight cove]

Honestly though it is what it is in regards of deino

https://tenor.com/view/it-is-what-it-is-it-is-eet-eet-iz-iz-gif-17896182

[slim dragon]

And that's why it needs a rework
So it no longer is what it is

[dusky surge]

i stand by charged lunge deino being an amazing idea

you can also add a charged bite with fractures if used on land, giving deino more defensive utility, allowing it to tussle with bigger apex-esque creatures at least for a bit, defending food and whatnot, while also providing some counterplay to an otherwise exceptionally boring counterplay

i also love the energy of "you can't talk about deino because you don't like it"

[slim dragon]

Of course you like the idea
It's yours

[dusky surge]

:)

[slim dragon]

You used it as a counter-argument to my idea of making deino AI-only

[tight cove]

Charged bite on land instead of a lunge is a good idea I agree but charged lunge in water I cannot in good faith stand behind 😂

[dusky surge]

Why not? It grants actual counterplay while not invalidating deino, and means that you have to actually set up your ambush

[tight cove]

If the charged lunge in anyway gives up a Deinos location it’s unacceptable

[dusky surge]

How is it any more unacceptable than eyeglow giving away deino's position, or enhanced water sense?

People can literally hear deino underwater in the current patch and it STILL ambushes

[slim dragon]

Then give another idea for possible counterplay that doesn't involve making deino possible to detect

[keen plover]

Wasn't the idea to scale it? So at minimum it can grab ---- creature but needs to hold it to grab larger ones?

[dusky surge]

Yea, longer charge gives the following

• Further distance travelled in the lunge
• Higher damage on impact
• Bigger things to grab

If you grab something, you press right click again to release it, or G

[keen plover]

Seems good actually? What would be the largest thing it could grab then. Assuming it's also avoidable, would be fine to bump up the range a bit?

[tight cove]

Eye glow is irrelevant it can’t be noticed underwater and idk what you mean by enhanced water sense and yes ppl can still ambush even though deino is glitched rn but it’s incredibly difficult borderline impossible I believe

[tight cove]

I’m ngl to you man I have no ideas for deino, it is in a “ it is what it is” state since you can avoid it

[dusky surge]

I'd still say 50% weight overall and 75% if in the water

[dusky surge]

That's bad philosophy

[tight cove]

So the same as it is rn but worse????

[dusky surge]

We don't want deinos grabbing other full adult deinos, do we

[slim dragon]

Well kinda
That's what happens to overtuned playables

[dusky surge]

In this hypothetical, it also has a charged bite on land which I would make do up to 1000 damage alongside fracture damage

[tight cove]

I remember this, but I hope ppl don’t expect a teno or a carno being able to fight back and escape lol

[keen plover]

I mean? I feel like that's a fine size to start fighting back?

Even forcing a deino to use a bit more stam would be clutch

[tight cove]

I’d say it depends on your species size and if you have claws

[dusky surge]

Charged deino lunge also helps with the stupid "grab you, bring you down, drop you, grab you, repeat" thing

[tight cove]

Teno does have claws yeah but it’s so much smaller than a adult deino so idk

[tight cove]

Dondi said he’s gonna change that

[keen plover]

Saw someone chain a teno. I didn't even think it was possible but it happened

[tight cove]

True but still your making deino worse

[dusky surge]

Which is fine, because it's still exceptionally powerful

[tight cove]

It’s not overtuned, if you wanna talk about overtuned let’s talk about teno

[dusky surge]

It still has its insane stats, incredible survivability and overall killing power

[keen plover]

I think it deserves a little buff in terms of diet management then. Near impossible rn to get a respectable diet going. Assuming schooling fish is fixed

[dusky surge]

it wishes it could be on the same level as deino lol

[slim dragon]

whut
Deino is the most overtuned playable in the game, by a very large margin

Why is teno the overtuned one, of all things ?

[dusky surge]

I can agree there, but I honestly would blame the roster more

An 8 ton creature is not getting much food and nutrients out of most of these animals

[keen plover]

I mean it's meant to hunt smaller creature. I think it would be fair if it could a bit more nutrients out of smaller prey items than other carnis of its size range

[tight cove]

Tenos stam

[dusky surge]

And that's it lol

Nerf the stam by 1-2% on kick and slam and its literally fine

Deino has far more fundamental flaws that make it a king

[slim dragon]

That's all ?

[tight cove]

But deino is completely avoidable though and land locked

[tight cove]

Yeah

[dusky surge]

Being able to avoid the mounted minigun in a knife fight by hiding behind a wall doesn't mean it's not exceptionally powerful

[tight cove]

Heavy on that 2%

[dusky surge]

Especially if you will inevitably have to walk into its range again

[tight cove]

I think it just comes down to 1 thing

[mint star]

team fort 2 reference ?

[tight cove]

NOBODY has been able to give me a solution that doesn’t completely screw over a deino player by giving away its location ☠️☠️☠️

[dusky surge]

Because there isn't one. Because that's the solution

And it doesn't really screw over deino

[slim dragon]

if any nerf is "screw every deino player" to you idk what to tell you

Or maybe compensate that by giving it 10 000 biteforce so it isn't forced to use lunge ?

[dusky surge]

First of all, no one is saying "DEINO GLOWS BRIGHT RED WHEN CHARGING ITS LUNGE AND HAS A RAID SIREN"

It'd probably literally be small ripples on the surface, akin to the enhanced water sense effect

[tight cove]

@dusky surge @slim dragon imagine trying to ambush someone when your making a audible sound cue &/or having a ripple effect appear right in front of them showing your about to strike and your location good luck

[tight cove]

Bro 🤣

[slim dragon]

That's playing herrera

And guess what ? It can ambush just fine

I mean, when people manage to get ambushed by stegos, clearly a ripple effect isn't the end of the world
Actually I'm pretty sure even if deino glowed red and made loud siren noises when swimming people could still fall for ambushes

[tight cove]

It’s not the same, that’s only when moving and most ppl are high up in the tree don’t compare the 2 Dino’s when you know it’s not the same bro 💀

[dusky surge]

Herrera has literal sounds while it climbs and jumps in trees and apparently that's fine

Carnotaurus SPRINTS AT YOU, GROANS EXTREMELY LOUDLY, AND IS REQUIRED TO GET A LONG RUNNING START, and people think THAT is an ambush creature. It isn't gimping deino, it's bringing it to the same playing grounds as everyone else

[slim dragon]

It's not the same because herrera has counterplay
Which is the very thing you absolutely disagree against

[tight cove]

Let’s be real nobody is moving around constantly when they are about to jump as a hererra cmon now yall

[slim dragon]

No because they know they need to stay still in order to get noticed
But they still need to position themselves bfore jumping

[dusky surge]

You can also look up and SEE the herrera, something that you can't do with deino. To make them equal, we'd have to make deino visible under the water

The herrera has to have line of sight with you, meaning that if it's about to ambush you, you can still spot it beforehand

Basically, exactly the thing you think deino would suck with, herrera already has

[leaden remnant]

herrera makes no sound

well it does but you can't even hear it

it's literally so silent that unless you're right in front of him you ain't hearing anything

[fiery shard]

herrera can't be heard while deino can be heard at a great distance always

[dusky surge]

That's odd, I think they should make it louder again

Regardless, you can still see it before it strikes, so therefor there should be no issue with deino having a similar (albeit more subtle) concept

[tight cove]

Ngl and I have made this point before but carno clearly needs a rework and I’m glad dondi is looking at it.

[dusky surge]

Carno just needs to be removed from this stupid ambush archetype

Which I think Dondi is doing

[tight cove]

This is the truth

[leaden remnant]

can barely even see it

if there's leaves or anything yeah no you cant see him

[dusky surge]

Which is why deino shouldn't have a colossal visual queue

It should be subtle

[leaden remnant]

if there's anything that mildly hides it, nope you aint seein

[leaden remnant]

herreras dont have just 1 try

[slim dragon]

They kinda do

More than deino

[tight cove]

Carno and cera both need a rework but that’s another topic for another day lol

[dusky surge]

Cera's fine imho

[leaden remnant]

they got more than 1 try most of the times

most of the times

[slim dragon]

That's if you let them

[tight cove]

I’m not getting into that tonight 😭

[leaden remnant]

i mean sure you can just dip to the other side of the map and you're good ig

[slim dragon]

If herrera misses its jump, it needs to scuttle back up a tree before its prey kills it or escapes
Which is far from being a given

[dusky surge]

How tf is anyone letting a herrera set up a second ambush after the first one failed lol

[slim dragon]

Whereas deino can spam lunge

[leaden remnant]

some ppl give it even 5 tries

[dusky surge]

Deino can miss lunge and do it again

[leaden remnant]

uhhhhhhhh no

if you miss it's over, go find smth else

[dusky surge]

That's the same as standing by a river and going "damn deino gets so many tries"

[leaden remnant]

whatever you missed is not going back there

[keen plover]

I mean it's both overtuned and also mediocre. The creature itself is whatever, but bacteria allows it to punch up well above what it should

[leaden remnant]

you forget that you can just chase the prey on land without being seen (as a herrera)

so if he dips you can follow him, catch up to him and jump him again

[dusky surge]

IF YOU LOSE TO A GODDAMN LAND HERRERA LMAO

[leaden remnant]

^^

and it happens quite often

that's why i claim that herreras got more than 1 try

however a deino is just either do it correctly or nopenope

nobody on his right mind is going to drink at a place if a deino just missed the lunge unless the deino just gives up

[keen plover]

Cera isn't all that bad. Maybe increase the range of the chuff so carno can't run in and out with charge and increase the stam cost of tenos attacks so it can't run it down and also fight

[tight cove]

Unless your a horrendous player a hererra and a deino only have 1 try but if a hererra lands the pounce it can obviously give chase on land since its bleed is very good.

[dusky surge]

well, tbf, it's a difference in niche

herrera is a godawful brawler due to poor attack damage, options and defensve stats

deino, however, has far better brawl capability, and can sustain itself on rot and bones

herrera having superior mobility is fine, because deino has INFINITELY superior defense and combat power

[leaden remnant]

herrera can just get down and follow you

[slim dragon]

First of all, getting the buff shouldn't be dependent on chuffing because that makes no sense
I mean, the buff itself doesn't make a lot of sense, but that part is worse

[leaden remnant]

im not even tryna compare em here 🤷‍♂️

[dusky surge]

well, you kinda are tho