balance-feedback-discussion

[hallow hinge]

cuz u playing cera mate lol

[dusky surge]

i have yet to play cera with the new patch

[hallow hinge]

what do u play then ?

[dusky surge]

i've so far played omni, herrera, dryo, troodon and teno with the new patch

[hallow hinge]

i bet u like new omni slow motion bite rate lol

[dusky surge]

i mean, its not as bad as people make it out to be, it could do to be a little faster to deal with all the dead space between attacks

[hallow hinge]

not bad??

[dusky surge]

not really. It could be better, but its not terrible

[hallow hinge]

i wonder why every nerf on raptor makes u feel good ?

first of all its terrible even ripping organs takes almost 5x longer than other dinos

[halcyon elk]

Then why not just simply reduce the cool down to like 0.5 seconds instead of 1?

[hallow hinge]

yeah it could be better

[cosmic pelican]

Its already 0.5 seconds, it was only ever 1 second when the cooldowns were introduced

[dusky surge]

they reduced it soon after it was released

[hallow hinge]

hmm u sure ?

[halcyon elk]

It is? Then maybe reduce it a little more.

[hallow hinge]

we can test on admin server

[cosmic pelican]

And you could FEEL that 1 second

Now that was bad, but funilly enough it was a massive buff for it vs big game

[halcyon elk]

The issue is that with no cool down the mega damage hack returns.

[cosmic pelican]

I am pretty sure yes

[hallow hinge]

bro i use timer and there is 2 - 1.8 sec between bites

[cosmic pelican]

I meant the actual added cooldown, not bitespeed

[hallow hinge]

dilo and cera almost like dont have any cd

[tropic horizon]

Honestly the worst example you could’ve picked since cera is like, among the most impacted by the cooldown-

[hallow hinge]

i have tried cera on admin server against carno and dilo it was still pretty nice bro

actually carno has no chance to win against good cera rn

way too slow

[tropic horizon]

It’s mainly just the fact that cera can’t punish after getting a vomit off on carno

[tropic horizon]

What?

[dusky surge]

i have no clue what hes talking about lol

[tropic horizon]

Mfw carno does 400 damage with a tap ram and can still insta knock cera

[hallow hinge]

if anyone wanna test it am willing to

[tropic horizon]

Like cera has an awful time against a good carno, I’ve managed to 1v2 them pretty consistently as carno

[hallow hinge]

insta knock is removed bro

[dusky surge]

not really

there's a way to work around that restriction

to still get insta tapram

[hallow hinge]

just deal damage not knocking down

[dusky surge]

no, it does both

[tropic horizon]

It isn’t, you can still do it, and even without the knockdown you still do 400 damage with a ram to the head which is very easy against cera because its head is like half of its torso in terms of size

[dusky surge]

theres a unique way to get around it

[hallow hinge]

i just played now bro what are u talking about

[hallow hinge]

i really wanna try it with u can u add me from steam

ok?

[tropic horizon]

Can’t get on atm, but sure we can do that later in the week when im available

[hallow hinge]

or just simply get in norde admin serv

[dusky surge]

i have never once seen a 1v1 ever concretely determine the outcome of any argument

[hallow hinge]

we just gonna test soo what is the harm ?

[dusky surge]

not even mentioning ping differences due to people existing in other parts of earth

[tropic horizon]

I mean I managed to convince someone that dilo on release was op through doing that so idek at this point

Some people just need a bit of perspective ig

[dusky surge]

im genuinely confused how people didn't gather that it was OP

[tropic horizon]

Because you could sit by water and avoid the hallucinations (that was your only defense against them because trying to fight back against them would kill you)

Or they just never played against dilo once

That’s the main problem with balance, they don’t try both sides out

[dusky surge]

raptor players and dilo players using "terrain abuse" as a copout for their animal being overpowered

[tropic horizon]

Not balance but people’s perspective on balance

[dusky surge]

raptor at least ISN'T OP anymore

[hallow hinge]

it is trash what are u talking about mate lol

[dusky surge]

but they also pulled the terrain card to justfiy their playable being stupid broken for a LONG time

[dusky surge]

im not saying its OP. Calm down

[tropic horizon]

Raptor is a bit more justified than dilo because unlike raptor Dilo FORCES you to park your butt in a lake or else you die a slow and painful death

[dusky surge]

fair

raptor USED to be like that

[tropic horizon]

I say this after playing like, everything in the game a substantial amount which really I encourage everyone to do to have the best perspective

[tropic horizon]

Gateway launch raptor

[hallow hinge]

dilo still op especially with pack

[dusky surge]

i honestly dont think its THAT OP. It's strong, sure, but def not launch levels

[tropic horizon]

I’d say so if they’re well coordinated, but most dilos aren’t that and you can snuff them out quickly. They do have the potential to be that way though

Their best fight id say is versus cera because of its pitiful hp and it’s janky hitboxes (the charge bite hitbox)

[hallow hinge]

all other dinos getting weaker that makes dilo even stronger

[hallow hinge]

2 well cordinated dilo demolish cera

[tropic horizon]

One thing I do think is very silly is that dilo and raptor have equivalent growth times which, n o.

[tropic horizon]

I know this yeah, me and my friend have killed countless of them by just ambushing them, applying venom, then laughing till they die

[hallow hinge]

yeah thats why i rarely play cera

[dusky surge]

dilos often get skillchecked by pachies and carnos. When an animal is NOTABLY oppressive, you notice a massive surge of them overtaking the entire ecosystem (U5.5 raptor, fracture carno, gateway launch carno + raptor, U6 pachy, U6.5 cerato, launch dilo, and deino for like all of spiro).

All of these animals were EVERYWHERE because they were undoubtedly the most viable with very little contest. Dilo... isn't that prominent anymore, it's certainly around, but since its nerf, its been more scarce and the ecosystem has diversified to other animals, to an honestly healthy degree.

[dusky surge]

i think this is more an issue of "cera being not good at what its supposed to do" rather than "dilo is OP"

[hallow hinge]

imo dilo can kill all other carnis except carno

[tropic horizon]

Yeah, as someone who has dumped the majority of my playtime into cera you can barely fulfill your niche and are sort of stuck in this limbo of having no niche at all and getting like weird power spikes of being oppressively strong or completely useless

[dusky surge]

i still think dilo's bite force is too high, and the clones being able to deliver 85 damage into a tailbite is DUMB, but otherwise its... okay.

i would call it overtuned, but not overpowered to a point of considerable concern

[hallow hinge]

and too fast

[dusky surge]

its not too fast imho

[hallow hinge]

46 would be better for him

[dusky surge]

the speed is the one part of it im okay with

it has low agility and deserves to be able to outpace raptor.

especially considering it is GARBAGE defensively

[tropic horizon]

It kinda needs the speed really, especially if it gets a damage nerf that’s gonna be its one defense against most things

[dusky surge]

you stam down a dilo and it is dead meat, straight up

dilo's speed is fine, its damage output not so much

[hallow hinge]

i mean they can give more agility but reduce speed

it could be better imo

[dusky surge]

id prefer it how it is, it's a unique weakness that makes it vulnerable to flanking attacks like pounce

also it makes carno a nightmare for the thing in daytime

[tropic horizon]

I like its agility honestly, it’s in the in between of not that agile but not carno level of un agile

[dusky surge]

yup

dilo's movement is well balanced, i think its just far too powerful on the offense

[hallow hinge]

but his bucking just drain stam like water

in 2 sec whole stam gone

[dusky surge]

i think it should be able to outrun raptor, but it should be encouraged to run from raptor, rather than fight

[dusky surge]

yea idk why this is, especially when stego for some reason has a worse buck

[tropic horizon]

4 raptors pouncing a stego will completely drain its stam if it bucks btw

[dusky surge]

but then again stego just gets so many soft hidden nerfs im not surprised anymore

[hallow hinge]

yeah that should be balanced i mean i even can barely pounc and when he bucking my stam just gone

[dusky surge]

its like the devs hate stego as much as the players do, which is why i don't want to play it (besides everything else about stego)

[hallow hinge]

i think stego made for killing deinos

[dusky surge]

i respect the fact that it does this

it is the main reason i like stego existing

because deino exists. if deino didn't exist, i'd probably not defend stego

but then again, stego has been nerfed so heavily to compensate for the smaller roster that it really kinda fits in at this point

kinda why i cant wait for the kit rework. Half because the animal FEELS unfinished, half because the animal deserves to be... good

still probably not playing steg tho

[hallow hinge]

stego not fun also

[dusky surge]

flat out true lol

[hallow hinge]

even if he were strong i would't play

[dusky surge]

hypsi has more going for it than stego imho

[hallow hinge]

hypsi actually fun to play lol

[dusky surge]

it'll be even better when it can climb

[hallow hinge]

or if they can jump like chicken

and floating in air

[dusky surge]

no its confirmed to be able to climb

[hallow hinge]

they can add this too can ben fun

[hollow canyon]

Ok, but this isn't the question - why did the cooldowns have to be CHANGED was the initial question.

Them being hardcoded or not is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Just hardcode them at their old values, that's it.

instead of doubling the cooldowns and what not

E.g. the Omni's bite cooldown was 1 second before = just hardcode it at 1 second instead of... whatever it supposedly is now.

I don't understand how making those cooldowns longer is helping to stop the hackers.

[halcyon elk]

How the damage hack worked was they basically spammed the bite hundreds of times within a fraction of a second. If you increase the cool downs they can't do that anymore.

[unborn iris]

Adding the hardcoded cooldowns is what makes them not able to do that anymore. He's asking why they needed to be longer than the presumably not hardcoded cooldowns.

[hollow canyon]

How does INCREASING the cooldown make you unable to do that? Was Carno unable to do that before the last update?

Cause it had its bite cooldown increased long before that

[dusky surge]

no, they didn't just increase the cooldown

they hardcoded a cooldown between bites

[odd pebble]

If they hardcode the cooldown to resemble the "no cooldown" attack rate, wouldn't it return the combat back to the way it was with the added benefit of countering hackers?

[dusky surge]

i believe it may have something to do with animation rates

namely, you CANNOT cancel your bite animation into another bite

this is fine on dilo because dilo has a rapid bite animation

however, it seems like animals such as raptor have a long endlag where it "resets" to a normal stance after a bite

this is why the cooldown feels so much worse on it

[hollow canyon]

and this cooldown has to be this long because..?

[unborn iris]

Animations, maybe. So something that could be worked on, maybe.

[hallow hinge]

i guess raptor need new animation

[halcyon elk]

I'm guessing they have yet to adjust them fully.

[wintry halo]

there not refined yet yea

[hallow hinge]

i hope they fix soon

I want to discuss about if raptor's bite force reduces to 50 - 45 but deal much much more bleed damage. Wouldn't it be better ?

[golden coral]

Depends on what you're aiming for?

[hallow hinge]

imo it suits better to raptor as a concept and it could help while hunting bigger prey

its a bleeder soo no need to deal more damage it has big claws and sharp teeth to make wounds

[thin glade]

all that raptor needs to be good and enjoyable its just not gets nerfs in each patch

[hallow hinge]

yeahh with every bite it will mutliply bleed soo in that way better play will be rewarded

but if u play bad u will not deal much damage

[golden coral]

I wouldn't mind if they changed it up so you would use bites and claw swipes for little damage but decent bleed, and then a "ramp up" damage but little to no bleed pounce as a finisher. Instead of using pounce as a main mechanic

[hallow hinge]

sounds soo good and balanced

[golden coral]

But unfortunately we seem to be stuck with "use your gimmick or don't do anything" more often than not, as most playables work like that

[hallow hinge]

pounce is also good but as u know u cannot pounce every time there is a lot of obstcle, bucking mechanic and pack mambers make u get away

in many stuation pounce is usless it can be good mechanic i wish devs read this lol

[golden coral]

Honestly, it'd be better if they just removed pounce, it's nothing but a troublesome mechanic!

[scarlet onyx]

If they make bites take stamina I think a major basic attack buff like that will be necessary

[hallow hinge]

raptor without pounce? ohh i even cannot imagine mate

and also bucking should't take 20% just at the beginning it should be like slow to fast

[scarlet onyx]

@thin glade what exactly do you mean by that? I'm slow

[odd pebble]

I don't think its due to animation as the cooldown exists even after you finished your animation. A much better example would be teno tailslam. Even after the animation is finished you have like an additional 1-2 secs of cooldown

You CANNOT AFFORD to whiff your tailslam as teno this update and that makes me sad

[dusky surge]

oh yea teno gets screwed hard

[dusky surge]

@mossy holly on one hand, i agree that deino being able to beyblade is dumb

on the other, stego feels HORRIBLE with its only powerful attack being restricted when out of stam, and I'd prefer it'd be treated like the other animals alt-bites, rather than more animals treated like its

[cedar beacon]

Do i lose more food and water when i run?

[dusky surge]

no

[cedar beacon]

OK

[mossy holly]

Stego and deino are the apexes rn. if you play well and manage your stamina as a stego, you will not be killed. Deino should have the same treatment, considering it effectively has an insta kill on anything not a steg/deino rn.

[dusky surge]

stego shouldn't rely on stamina as much as it does imho, it's REALLY bad with the new stam changes

[mossy holly]

Thats a symptom of bad stamina system

[dusky surge]

No.

The stamina system is fine, it's literally how stego specifically interacts with it

[mossy holly]

But, considering stego is a defensive style of play

you shouldn't really have issues if you dont spam your tail

I rarely play stego, but when i do stamina isn't my problem, it's the dark xd

[eager goblet]

#balance-feedback message

Have you ever tried to catch a falling cat?

@onyx lichen
Personally I think having 3 adult herreras drop on you should be able to kill a cera

[quasi flare]

Why did they decide that Omni needed the bite cooldown but Dilo bite and Teno claw attack should still be rapid fire? Just trying to understand the insight behind a decision like that.

[golden coral]

They didn't, it was an adjustment to combat a hack and the reason it differs is because of the anims for the various species

[quasi flare]

But what stops a hacker from just doing the same thing with a teno or Dilo?

[thin glade]

did yall gaslighting or just trolling

[quasi flare]

Dilo I think is a bit more forgivable because they only have that one attack, but Teno? The big tanky thing with 4 different attacks also needed a rapid fire attack? Maybe I’m not seeing the bigger picture but it just doesn’t make sense to me.

[thin glade]

cough cough veno.. coughcough

[quasi flare]

Hey man you’re preaching to the choir, I think if Omni and anything smaller has the cooldown that Dilo should have it as well, but I guess I’m just looking at them next to Teno. Teno is the one that seems egregious to me most of all.

[thin glade]

i agree that teno just too good in each aspect but i have no reasonable explanation for that strange balance decision except favoritism

[quasi flare]

@jagged spindle Just wanna get your take man, you think Herra and Dilo don’t belong on anything’s diet?

[golden coral]

I think it had to do with anim "cancel", now you can't do that. Which also means you get "cooldowns" that are based on the anim playing out fully.

[golden coral]

What are you on about?

[thin glade]

that take about animation speed sound very cope, because if animation is not okay why just not fix the animation before nerfing to unplayble state omni? lol OR maybe someone heard about animation speed that it can be adjusted and reflect the same result no? still need nerfs that can`t be called as nerf?

[dusky surge]

what

[golden coral]

It has nothing to do with cope, it is an explanation for the change, and why some animals have much more noticable "cooldown" than others

It's not a nerf, it wasn't intended as such, and wasn't specific for omni either. It was a general change for most playables, adjusting their "cooldown", or apparently having the anim play out fully, instead of being able to "stack" bites somehow. I don't know exactly how the hack worked, but the change was in response to that, simple as that.

Does it affect playables, of course, but my point wasn't about how it affects this or that playable, it was an explanation as to why the change happened.

The question was why they decided that omni needed a longer cooldown than teno or dilo, and the answer it, it has to do with the respective anims playing out fully, and omni having a fancier bite anim than the others, or something along that line at least

[thin glade]

man i mean discussion of balance is exactly about how changes affects on playables or im went to wrong topic?

[golden coral]

Not at all, but my response wasn't balance related. It was to the other person about why the changes looks the way they do. Which wasn't a balance decision.

[thin glade]

okay i see

[quasi flare]

I think it’s fair to say based on all of the above that while the change was implemented for the sake of stopping hackers (something we can all agree is a W), it’s a step back for balance and created a bigger gap between Omni and these playables.

[golden coral]

Far as I know, at least, there wasn't a "omni needs a slower bite" sentiment. There was a "we need a way to stop the hack, apply cooldowns according to anim" and no one thought about that omni has a "fancier" anim than some others.

And yeah, they could do with adjusting the anims, or what they'd need to change, not disputing that

[onyx lichen]

I wasn't talking about the damage, I was talking about how strong the bleed is

[eager goblet]

Teno isn’t tanky.

What rapid fire attack are you talking about?

[quasi flare]

It’s claw. I believe it’s Alt + LMB IIRC. 1600 HP I think is quite tanky compared to most carnivores that aren’t a carno or cera.

[torn egret]

I think they need a nerf. They spam tail slam and kicks with minimal repercussions to stamina. It’s a winnable fight 1v1 carno or cera, but 2 of them together can stun lock and kill a cera in 4 kicks or a kick and a few slams. The animation needs a longer start up, a cooldown, or a higher stamina cost for them. Or a damage reduction for kick if it has that stun and knockback.
What yall think on that tho?

[quasi flare]

Not to mention it can abuse that claw attack even with little to no stam. I don’t believe it’s like stego where having no stam means you can’t tail swing anymore. (Maybe a Teno main can correct me)

Its claw also causes a good chunk of bleed very quickly. While they usually opt for the tail slam/kick combo, as an Omni I’ve seen low stam Tenos resort to climbing a rock or other spot where there’s only one direction you can come from and simply spam their claw without much repercussion at all.

[torn egret]

The bleed on it is crazy.

[tropic horizon]

Maybe like a slightly increased attack cost like 1-2 percent at most is all it needs really, other than that I think it’s fine besides hitbox bugs but literally every animal has that problem so it’s not really a teno issue

Because teno is honestly fine, the claw being powerful is okay because it is so easily baitable as well as every other attack and really you just have to play super careful around a teno to beat it

Unless you’re a raptor because yeah teno can just climb on a rock which sucks a bunch

Or it can bite you to death as well which is usually what I opt for as teno

[quasi flare]

I have to disagree on the claw being baitable simply because it doesn’t suffer from the cooldown the way most thing’s bites have a cooldown. Teno can do it continuously, with little to no stam, and with little to no cooldown. It exacerbates the rock problem by not being so baitable. I think if it had a cool down similar to Omni bite cooldown it would be fine.

[tropic horizon]

Ehh? I guess but even before the patch I’ve been having a decent time with baiting out the claw as raptor because I’d usually just hang out behind them, wait for them to claw, then bite their face and get out with no problem

Idk I guess it depends

I do think that the bite cooldown could be shortened a bit or when they find out a way to stop hacking without the cooldown, it can be removed

[quasi flare]

In an open area claw isn’t a problem. The thing to be scared of there is the tail slam into kick combo. But when they jump up on a rock that’s where it’s a problem because depending on the terrain you can’t get behind them at all. Yes, the terrain is the issue here, but being able to claw even at 0-3% stam is the problem since you can effectively keep up a hitbox wall in the one accessible direction to prevent things from coming in to try and bite you during what would be the cooldown of that claw.

Unlike a stego where if you get it to 0% stam you no longer have to worry about tail swings.

[tropic horizon]

Find it funny that it can still peck you to death

[golden coral]

Which would be why stego sucks to be fair, it should have the alt attack treatment really

[quasi flare]

lol absolutely. I think anything being able to do any attacks at 0% is part of the problem there.

[golden coral]

But what you're complaining about is a playable being able to force a facetank due to terrain use, which is, well, that's not a problem

No, quite the opposite, since otherwise you get "just count attacks" and then attack

[quasi flare]

Not exactly. Terrain while a problem, is still beatable if you’ve properly drained them of stam. But some playables get to circumvent this problem by still being able to put up a hitbox even with no stam.

[golden coral]

It's really simple, if you're not big enough to facetank the thing, don't facetank it

[quasi flare]

Deino is another example of this. A Deino who wastes all its stam on land can still alt bite even at 0%

[tropic horizon]

Or they can just go there before they even run out of stam and they’ll live the encounter

[golden coral]

And that's the issue, that the playable is defenseless out of stam. Which nothing should be, because then you can just count out the attacks

I mean, sure, if we apply it to every attack, it'd be fine

[tropic horizon]

Yeah nobody does that unless they’re stupid

[golden coral]

But do you really want basic bites to cost stamina too?

Alts already do less damage, or are meant to, when used out of stam

[quasi flare]

Yes, and if they do this kudos to them, I don’t have a problem with this. But you should absolutely be rewarded for managing to force a bad player to waste all of their stam.

[golden coral]

But they can be used out of stam so that the critter isn't entirely defenseless, and so you can't just go "they can't attack at all anymore"

You are rewarded, even more so now that low stam means you can't regen unless resting and so on

[quasi flare]

Right, but I think that’s a flaw. This game is suppose to punish you for bad stamina management. So why do some playables get to still do attacks at 0 when they made the misplay of burning through their stam? It makes stam management irrelevant in some cases like the teno or Deino example.

[slim dragon]

Being out of stam shouldn't be equivalent to "ok now you die"
It should be a very tough situation, but not one where you can't do anything anymore

[quasi flare]

Stego is already like this with their tail slam. If you get them to 0 they can no longer tail slam and even an Omni has no worries about tail riding it and biting it

[golden coral]

But it does punish you, in various ways. Less attack power, no ability to run around, can't regen without resting (being vunerable) and so on

This would work out if everyones basic bites were equally bad

[golden coral]

Yes, and that, is terrible

[tropic horizon]

Doesn’t feel as tough as it should be (unless we’re talking stego)but yeah I agree

[golden coral]

Stego should be able to jab out of stam, but with weaker attacks

The fact that you can "Tail ride" a stego out of stam is just outright bad

[tropic horizon]

Perhaps a slower animation to indicate its exhaustion?

[tropic horizon]

The stego can turn around and bite you but yeah I don’t like that this is even a possibility

[golden coral]

That could work too, slower/weaker, I believe alts already are weaker when out of stam, so just apply that to RMB attacks too, when it's "normal" attacks. I'm fine with things like ram/charge/pounce/lunge because those are specific mechanics, but like teno tail slam and stego jabs are just basic attacks really, they don't do anything "gimmick" wise

It's more so that part of the change for alts was to prevent the "you're out of stam, now you die" and the whole counting attacks

You can still count "did the stego attack 20 times, okay, if so it's dead", which is apparently not desirable, or it wasn't when it regarded the alts at least, hence the change

[slim dragon]

Being able to pounce without stam would be a nerf, since you fall over when out of stam, so omnis would pounce when oos by mistake, then istantly fall and get punished

[golden coral]

Well true, I just wanted to make a distinction between normal attacks and all the fancy "mechanics" we have

[quasi flare]

I disagree only because this gives bad players a big cushion where they don’t have to actually manage their stamina. If a Stego could tail swing even at 0 why should it care about its stam at all? It can sit on a cliff or against a wall with 0 stam and still one shot most things. Throw in a 2nd stego and now even with both being at 0 one can cover the other’s logout. Even with a weaker swing it’s still largely in the stego favor by nature of it having 6k HP. Even if the tail swings only did 100-200 compared to their usual 1000, the math would still work in their favor against most things except maybe a Deino or other stego.

It makes little sense to me that Omni’s have to manage their stam to the point of counting how much stam they put into a pounce or else they can be run down by a teno yet a teno can burn all of it’s stamina and still get itself in a position where it can put up a defensive unreachable wall of hitbox with claw.

[golden coral]

Because you're only looking at current roster, while I am looking at the entirety of it. Also omni bites are free. You don't want free attacks, then that should count for them all.

An omni or a cera can back themselves up vs something as well and force a facetank

[quasi flare]

I agree, Omni bites should cost something. I think that’s universal. And if you’re looking at the whole roster you gotta realize Rexes are gonna be doing what the stego do too.

[golden coral]

Should you have them run out of stam for their bites too? Carno can as well

Oh yeah, and I don't see a problem with it. If something is cornered, and you can't facetank it, you weren't meant to go 1v1 with it

And if it is out of stam, and thus weaker, you could overpower it

Given that you have sufficient power in the first place

You would care about stam for all the other reasons, as well as the fact that if you're cornered, you can't sit and rest, since that'd give the thing cornering you all the openings it need

Stam isn't only combat related, so the whole being able to attack out of stam does not mean stam isn't important otherwise, or that the regen isn't important, even in combat

[quasi flare]

I agree with you in that if you can use the terrain to force a face tank you should win but not if you also can’t manage your stamina. This is very easily circumvented by simply using the terrain earlier in the encounter and I don’t have a problem with that either. But I do have a problem with players being able to burn all their stam and then use the terrain as a fall back AFTER they’ve burned through 100% stam.

[golden coral]

Let's say the stego waste all stam, right, and now it can still attack. But it can't run, should a second, or bigger target, come up.

So while it's wasted all stam and isn't worried about the omnis attacking it, if a trio of allos that has heard the noise roll up, well, now stego dies

[tropic horizon]

Maybe like an “exhausted” status where if you burned all of your stamina, your attacks would be slowed down considerably (regardless of if they were basic or special attacks that’s just what im gonna call bites and abilities). Giving people who manage their stamina well an advantage over those who don’t. And when I mean slowed down for stuff like bites I mean like a slightly longer cooldown in between each of the bites. Idk if this would work very well though

[golden coral]

Because those guys can handle out of stam stego attacks, at that point, for example

And being "third partied" does happen

[golden coral]

The thing is, that only works when the power difference is too great

Which is why it's not a problem to me. You can do that as teno vs a solo omni, sure. But vs a cera or carno that can take that weakened claw and hit back a lot harder?

[quasi flare]

That’s a non issue because cera, carno and all the other big carnivores can’t jump to where the teno is using a rock to create the claw hitbox wall.

[golden coral]

At that point, being out of stam will make a difference in if you can successfully defend yourself or at least inflict enough damage/bleed to make the carno/cera reconsider, or if they go "I can facetank and win this, let's go"

[golden coral]

You don't have to jump up on a rock to apply the "corner myself" method though

Could just stand in a crevice or similar for that matter

[tropic horizon]

Or in the case of cera just dive into a river and dare them to do something about it

[golden coral]

In the case of jumping away from something that can't follow, well, at that point is more so an end of the engagement due to lack of ability to keep engaging on the part of the one that can't jump

[quasi flare]

Right, but if you’re a Teno, you wouldn’t do that bc you lose a face tank to those things. So you use the rock so that the corner method works on the only threatens actually capable of reaching you. On the ground, Stego is the one who is going to corner themselves for their benefit and in most cases the math works in their favor if they’re allowed to swing at 0.

[golden coral]

Won't matter if you have stamina or not at that point

Right, which was my point, that the power difference means stamina matters. And in that case, you'd just jump out of reach and not engage at all. Which plenty of playables can do in various ways.

I mean, the math should work in their favour considering the rest of the roster, if we're talking stego or deino

But your argument was that you should have to mind your stamina, and my point is that you have to, depending on what you're up against

An omni does not need to manage stamina vs one troodon, it can corner itself on the rock and do the same thing a teno can

[eager goblet]

Teno is balanced reasonably considering its on every carnivores diet except dilo

[golden coral]

But if a pachy jumps up, now suddenly the stamina would matter a lot more

[eager goblet]

Teno is a skill based dino

[quasi flare]

I agree that the math should work in their favor for face tanking but again, if you get yourself to 0% stam you’ve misplayed. Short of a cera making you vomit, the only way you get that low is for you to have been so irresponsible with your stam that you’re now SOL. Except some of these dinos don’t even get punished for that and I think that’s a huge problem.

[tropic horizon]

I agree, it’s one of the few examples of a Dino being both strong and not completely overbearing and overpowered

[eager goblet]

Its at a good place rn

[tropic horizon]

Like the only thing I want changed about it is small technical problems but who doesn’t want that really?

[eager goblet]

A skilled teno player can survive solo.

But thats not your average player. Average teno players are trash

[tropic horizon]

The average teno spams about 10 tail slams missing every single one and then calls their opponents op

[golden coral]

Oh I agree, if you get that low, you've either messed up, been vomiting, or was so atttritioned that you had no other option (could be outnumbered to such a degree to be fair, especially stego). But they do get punished, and that's where we disagree. You might not think they get punished enough, but you can't deny that a weaker alt is a punishment. As is not being able to regen stam to use otherwise without resting. And so on. Those are punishments, even if they don't quite result in you being able to facetank the target of your choice.

[eager goblet]

I fear however that teno is going to get deleted when apexes come

Not literally

[golden coral]

A teno is punished for wasting all stam, but the punishment only goes so far, and depends on what you're up against.

[tropic horizon]

I doubt it, it’s gonna definitely be quicker than apexes and it’ll be able to fight off whatever it can’t run from

[eager goblet]

I mean, in the update 5 days I could kill stegos as a teno

[golden coral]

Teno is probably the one playable where the difference between a bad player and a good player is so massive, but thats what you get when the playable is done well

[eager goblet]

Nah. Rex is faster than teno

[golden coral]

You still can I'm pretty sure

[tropic horizon]

Doubtful

[golden coral]

Given enough tenos, and patience at least

[eager goblet]

Have u seen the video?

[tropic horizon]

Same here, was very fun

[eager goblet]

Rex is roided

[golden coral]

Granted, with new stam it'd be a lot more painful, but it's probably still doable

[eager goblet]

If you’re good at managing stam in a fight then Teno is unbeatable in a 1v1

[tropic horizon]

I have but I still think teno will be able to escape it otherwise that would be stupid of the devs to add an animal that can run down a cera or a teno with nothing the cera and teno can do about it

[eager goblet]

Agreed

[tropic horizon]

Not really? It’s possible just really really tough

[eager goblet]

Yeah I might’ve overstated it

U get the idea though

[tropic horizon]

Cause I’ve fought plenty of them as cera and carno and have been able to win but not without one hell of a fight

[golden coral]

I'm not too worried about teno surviving an apex, at least not if we end up with more swamp teno

[eager goblet]

I WANT TENO TO BE SEMI

[golden coral]

Semiaquatic teno would be nice, yes

[eager goblet]

Like man

Its got the build for it. Especially the tail

[golden coral]

Let the little ones dive at that, juvie niche

[tropic horizon]

I like teno as is right now, plateo could get the semi aquatic herbi wader niche as it literally has nothing else it could do that something else doesn’t do

[eager goblet]

Let me direct your attention to the Nile Lechwe.

An antelope that outswims a crocodile

[tropic horizon]

It’s built like a kangaroo the more I look at it

[eager goblet]

Right lol

[tropic horizon]

Like look at it in its standing sniffing animation and tell me that ISNT a giant reptilian kangaroo

[eager goblet]

I’ll never unsee that

Ur right tho

[tropic horizon]

It’s got the roided out arms and giant tail

[golden coral]

Back in early Evrima, it really was that gameplay. Go fight in water, or die to teleporting omnis xD

[dawn falcon]

It’s kind of like the weird camera locks

It’s really jank because it’s a strict angle.
I think allowing Omni to pounce from the side of the tail area (at an angle) would be really good, same with the front area.
Pouncing directly behind and in front should not happen imo

Troodon should just ignore the rules too

[hallow hinge]

i agree with him if they add cd why some has 0.5 sec cd like dilo and some have 2 sec

why they dont give 0,5 it would still provide protection from stacking ??

[golden coral]

Because it's related to the animation, and the various critters have different anims, they're not all equally long. At least how I understood it.

[hallow hinge]

making new animation is not that hard and also they can revalue animation casting time so it can be ( raptor bitting animation already seems like in slow motion so it would't be problem) seem a bit faster.

[junior harness]

Maybe not making a whole new animation, but rather trimming the current one they have to prevent that dead space issue

[hallow hinge]

bro making new animations not hard especially without any interaction

[golden coral]

Maybe it isn't, but I doubt it's easy either.

And it's not likely they'd change the anim entirely, especially not if they don't consider it an issue in the first place

[hallow hinge]

they already have model so they will not create new thing mate just it will make them a bit shorter thats all.

they even dont need to work too much just speed up and make it shorter

[golden coral]

You ever done any such work?

[junior harness]

They already have the animation though is the thing. Animating, while not as intensive of labor as the rest of the modeling process, can still take a bit to make it look good. In this situation it'd be much easier for them to go into the existing animation clip for the bite, and trim out the unnecessary dead space. This also lets them continue to focus on other, more important optimizations to the game as well, since going in and deleting some empty space in an animation should be pretty quick and easy, compared to going through the process of re-animating the bite when it's already there.

[golden coral]

Yeah, they probably could

[junior harness]

They absolutely could, I've had to do it myself in the past. While their tools might be different, surely just deleting some dead space and shortening it to where the animation actually ends would be easy enough

[hallow hinge]

personally nope but i have friends working for tarkov as a dev soo i know !

[junior harness]

Still, it'd take much less time for them to just go in and snip as opposed to reanimating the whole thing

[golden coral]

If you say so!

In any case, any change will only happen if the devs deem it worth, for one reason or another

[hallow hinge]

new animation would be nice as a gameplay but making adjustment like what u said would be easier i would take it too

[hallow hinge]

i think devs not focusing on gameplay rn

[golden coral]

I'd say they are focusing on gameplay, but not neccesarily balance

[hallow hinge]

imo they working on most likely about new dinos

[golden coral]

I'd hope they are working on elders and perks and all that, new dinos are not really what we need, even if the newer ones have been pretty fun.

[hallow hinge]

if i were them i would focus on all bugs and issues like what we discuss after solving them all, i would add new dinos

not many devs working on this game soo trying to make everyting at the same time could be bad choice

[slim dragon]

Ok but what would the modelers and animators do in the meantime ?

[golden coral]

I guess it depends on what we think is the most important

But yeah, there's that too, not like multiple things can't be done at the same time. So it's more a question of what would really make the game better perhaps

[hallow hinge]

working on diablo and rex ?

[torn egret]

I think damage reduction overall isn't a bad thing. Or just give things "More health"
That's one of the problems I think the devs have with this game, because it is SO hard to balance anything in this game because people ask for specific changes to specific dinos as if the 1 thing won't misbalance another dino.
They did a FANTASTIC job imo with the new growth changes and hunger thirst changes.
I think the stam is a bit too forgiving, I kinda liked the hardcore style of fighting during the harsh stam days.
But damn, I've had fair fights with carnos, ceras, tenos, pachys, the whole lot.
The growth changes helped.

Point of rant: Should we be requesting and looking for "Blanket fixes" like this last patch that was focused on QOL, instead of independent fixes to make one dino "More playable"?

Maybe instead of fine tuning each dino in a different patch, make more general changes or changes to groups of dinos.
(Like correcting the pounce and pachy ram issues on hills or any mild elevation, Or making smaller dinos more dynamic. Like the dryo burrow, or giving hypsis some more movement or animations, etc)

Even if specific fixes are added in future patches to "save" the playability of certain dinos, maybe general changes could be better.

This is all said with me knowing absolutely nothing about how the dev team can work on things, nor how much work goes into tasks etc.

Sorry for a long rant I tagged you in Mr Cera XD

[cosmic pelican]

@azure moon the reason youre losing stamina while attacking is because youre doing an alt attack. Go into settings->gameplay and then tick "Manual alt attack".
Also deino doesnt need to sit on land to regenerate stamina, you gain just as much while swimming.

[white scaffold]

Sorry for asking here but does anyone know if Deino Hatchlings can eat again/that bug was fixed?

[odd pebble]

@uncut trellis ah a fellow update 5 carno enjoyer

[uncut trellis]

Carno was honestly the best it ever was back then, not overpowered but not pathetic either

[odd pebble]

I agree wholeheartedly

[keen plover]

Movement was actually fun. Higher skill ceiling than now 😔

[uncut trellis]

They should just return carno to that and buff cerato to handle it better

[dusky surge]

Terrible balance philosophy tbh

[uncut trellis]

Not surprised to hear that from you lol, but all I mean is cerato needs buffs more than carno needs nerfs

[dusky surge]

Sure, cerato needs buffs, but the thing where you "buff something to a point where it's notably strong, then buff a single other thing to deal with it" is bad

[odd pebble]

I mean, tbf the only thing that struggles against carno is cera, so it makes sense to buff it to better deal with the additional buffs

[livid spindle]

@frosty heron Cerato will only get half the food when eating AI animals. I found it from the beginning of Cerato's stress test, but no one listened to me. I don't know if this is a BUG or a deliberate design. Cerato gets less food from AI animals than Carno.

[mossy holly]

Yeah cera's been an underdog when competing with things in it's weight class

[livid spindle]

The reason why I still don't play cerato is that I can't eat enough through AI animals.

Cerato was forced to go to PVP, but it was easy to die because of this process.

[mossy holly]

Cerato is my most played dinosuar because of how weak is is compared to carno/dilo

and playing good with it and killing those with a well timed charge bite is fun

[livid spindle]

Carno recovered 12% satiety from wild boar and cerato recovered 7% satiety from wild boar, which is unreasonable according to the weight.

I found and put forward this from the first day when cerato appeared, but I didn't get any response. So far, this bug of cerato still exists.

[mossy holly]

boar is not on cera's diet

[dusky surge]

this isnt true. Cerato simply has a larger stomach

[mossy holly]

try with a deer or something

[dusky surge]

Cerato gets less food from everything, technically, as it needs to eat more for its size

[livid spindle]

So it doesn't make sense.

[frosty heron]

It has a larger stomach and needs to eat almost twice than a Carno , doesnt make sense. Carno full stomach duration is 60 minutes while Cerato I doubt it reachs 45 minutes. While is true Cerato can eat anything including bones , keeping a perfect diet with it is almost impossible due to the low nutrient gain.

Apart of that , lets not talk about the current playable survivality , might be one of the worst in the game right now , the only thing Cerato has in its favour is a decently good growth time

[torn egret]

Why are yall claiming cera is bad now? I think cera has the best chance to survive now compared to ever. At least that’s how it feels to me. I’ve 1v2 carnos, killed tenos solo, and fought stegos solo now. It feels better than ever. I would like a slight uptick in bite speed, but that’s about all I can think of. I’ve been able to fight off raptors etc.
dilos are rough still, but I’m figuring out the best way to fight them as cera since they have a big hitbox and are faster. But you can land 2-3 bites and play the tracking game from there.

[tropic horizon]

Against experienced or even just half decent players cera loses out to pretty much everything that isn’t a pachy or an Omni. As teno I have literally killed ceras in 30 seconds flat because of how squishy they are and carno is an absolute BANE to cera. A tap ram even with knockdown does absurd amounts of damage to a cera and it’s beneficial to just pretend you’re going to ram to scare off the cera just so you can get more bites in. Outside of combat I’d say Cera is okay but within combat it gets disrespected by most things.

[leaden remnant]

as cera you can win a 3v1 against dilos, i don't understand what's wrong with cera, it's a beast

[dusky surge]

how in god's name are 3 dilos losing to a cera

[leaden remnant]

you put an utah to red health with a headshot alt bite, you can bully carnos real big time, you absolutely munch dilos and you can even obliterate a deino if you play it extremely well

[leaden remnant]

turn speed is horrendous so if you can troll them like that you are able to win

but other than that, skill issue

also to be fair dilo sucks awfully in fights

[dusky surge]

does it really? i never thought so

[leaden remnant]

pretty much

it's not a tank like cera and the turn speed is really bad

a cera is somewhat agile and can destroy a dilo with a nice landed charge bite so you can play it well and win

cera is pretty much the strongest land carnivore there is

[dusky surge]

debatable

[leaden remnant]

can tank heavy hits, can give astronomically heavy hits as well and is pretty agile

its only rival would be carno which has a horrendous turn speed and only that already gives it way less chances

[dusky surge]

its also slow and has no damage resist away from corpses

[leaden remnant]

even without corpses you can bully carnos as a cera

since carnos have horrendous turn speed just get out of the way and come back while charging

i mean if it's a 2v1 dinner is served but if it's a 1v1 you shouldn't lose imo

everytime i play cera (not much btw) i just hunt carnos for a living

[tropic horizon]

2 good dilos can put a cera out of commission within seconds and basically force it to hide in water since the dilos can constantly trade hits with the cera in order to stack venom and damage and once clones spawn in you’re pretty dead without water as a cera. Carno and teno can kill cera in seconds unless the cera plays extremely carefully, that deino thing you said is true if the deino literally doesn’t know what an alt bite is or what the W key is. Cera gets trashed by most things in the game, that’s the issue. The corpse bully gets bullied by most of the roster.

[leaden remnant]

uh cera is a complete beast and trashes everything

a carno can kill a cera who has no idea what he's doing

[tropic horizon]

If they’re fighting actual morons

[leaden remnant]

a teno can kill a cera who has no idea what he's doing

[tropic horizon]

A cera can kill a carno who has no idea what he’s doing

[tropic horizon]

A cera can kill a teno who has no idea what he’s doing

[leaden remnant]

okay that's a valid point, however you can't tell me that a tank that does insane damage with the charge bite is an unviable dino or needs buffs

[tropic horizon]

Like I can break out the same argument you’re saying

[leaden remnant]

and that can force someone to vomit

[tropic horizon]

Im not saying he’s unviable im saying he’s weak compared to what he’s supposed to be fighting off, so mainly just carno and dilo.

[leaden remnant]

i don't see how it's weak against carno, can you try and explain to me how?

[tropic horizon]

He isn’t that tanky really, he has really low hp and needs to have already killed something in order to level the playing field

[leaden remnant]

^^ genuinely interested btw not sarcasm

[tropic horizon]

Okay so the reason it’s weak against carno is mainly down to the fact that carnos charge can do 400 damage even without the run up or knocking things down. What you can do as a carno is just run at a cera, charge him when you get close to him, then get away from him with nothing the cera could do to fight back. This also helps in faking the cera out as a carno even turning to face a cera is a risk to the cera as that carno (with his instant acceleration) can go from standing still or trotting to zooming at the cera with its 400 damage charge. Not to mention it’s bites doing more damage and it having far more health than cera. It’s kind of hard to put into words and it’s more so something you have to experience when playing as Cera or carno.

Sorry for the wall, just couldn’t find a shorter way to explain it

[leaden remnant]

hmmm you have a big point here

[tropic horizon]

In short: carno does more damage and is faster and tankier also not to mention it can still do the insta knockdown

[leaden remnant]

as a rappie main i am tired of being 1 shot from 10m away by all carnos in existence

everytime i see a carno i accept my fate, regardless of how evasive i may be i am dead

[tropic horizon]

Idk if I had to give advice to sort of figure out ceras state of balance just play everything equally? Like I “main” cera but also play everything else pretty frequently

[tropic horizon]

As someone who’s been getting into raptor yeah this sucks

[leaden remnant]

with some good moves you can kill a carno as a cera tho, a few good evasive maneuvers and some good landed charges and he'll be out

[leaden remnant]

oh trust me you have to be the best in this world to play raptor normally, i keep dying to the stupidest things ive ever seen

[leaden remnant]

but okay ill give you that, a very skilled carno is just impossible to kill

[tropic horizon]

I know this though it’s just ridiculously tough to pull off against a good carno. I think most of the confusion of balance in officials is just because let’s be honest, most players on official servers are just kinda bad. Like I was playing carno a week ago and managed to 1v2 a cera pair and a teno pair because they played like absolute fools so I can see how people might have balance skewed one way or the other cause skill is so variant on official servers

[leaden remnant]

lol, absolutely true

but yeah, with the lag and stuff it's awfully difficult to pull off

[tropic horizon]

That’s why people still complain about raptor being op or teno being underpowered or stuff like that

[leaden remnant]

😭

rappie my beloved is inside the trash right now

practically impossible to play

[tropic horizon]

Has probably the most unreliable ability in the entire game

[leaden remnant]

the other day i played cera and just annihilated an entire ecosystem that's why i was confused

took on 2 carnos and made it out alive

probably my vision of cera has been distorted because of that, but since i assume you've played cera way more than me i'd trust you more than myself

[tropic horizon]

Yeah I’ve done crazy stuff with cera, like in 6.5 when I fought a group of 8 raptors and killed every single one because they were just genuinely awful at the game

[leaden remnant]

(i haven't really played cera ngl)

[golden coral]

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that people claim raptor being underpowered and teno being op because they're just bad at them? ^^

[leaden remnant]

LOL

[leaden remnant]

yes

or just get obliterated by a dino and immediately think it's way too op

[golden coral]

Not sure which side would be correct, but that's why we shouldn't balance based on peoples ability, but on the playables actual ability

[leaden remnant]

for example idk a rappie pack killing a carno and the carno immediately thinks rappies are way too op when he just sucks

[golden coral]

Since that's what determines, in the end, what can actually be done in the game

[tropic horizon]

Eh people complain about all kinds of views tbf, the raptor thing I think is more justified because it’s ability sometimes just doesn’t work

But that’s just what I believe anyways

[leaden remnant]

definetely

[golden coral]

But a playable being bugged is not a matter of ability, if it's bugged, it's bugged

[leaden remnant]

a rappie even trying a stego is just stupid

well you can try now but it's just stupid and if you die that's literally your fault

if we're speaking about my beloved utahrappie, it should definetely be able to take on practically anything provided that the pack is big enough

for a carno 3 ish rappies

for a stego 12 rappies

^^ all this to have a comfortable, practically risk-free fight

so yes if someone came saying that rappie sucks cause 2 rappies cant take on a carno he just deserves bonking with a metal pipe

[dusky surge]

actually, no, stego is one of raptor's best matchups atm

but that's partially because stego has an inherently flawed design and gets screwed the moment it runs low on stam

[alpine snow]

Thinking that it should take 12 raptors to kill a stego is wild 💀

[dusky surge]

it takes like... 3 lol. Not hard

its honestly way too easy for raptors to kill 'em

4 coordinated raptors mince meat stego

[tropic horizon]

I mean people’s ability kind of translates into what the playable is capable of yknow? Like just because a teno for example is bad doesn’t mean the playable itself is bad because when the player is good the playable’s abilities are actually being truly fleshed out and you can then see what the playable is actually capable of.

[tropic horizon]

I find it rather silly that a stego attempting to buck 4 raptors off will drain its stam completely lol

[golden coral]

It .. should? And even so, at least half should die in the attempt most likely

[mossy holly]

Ngl alot of dinosaurs I've run into have been terrible

[golden coral]

Not quite. Basically what I mean is the sheer stats is what determine what you can do. Your skill only determines if you can do it. You're right, the playable is good or bad dependent on what it can and can not do, no matter if the player is capable of doing it or not.

[mossy holly]

Especially lately

[golden coral]

But you don't need a good player to look at stats and tell what can and can not be done

Since it's well, sheer numbers

[tropic horizon]

I don’t think it should take more than omnis group limit to kill a stego But I do think it should take quite a lot of them, maybe even a full group to bring one down

Cause 12 is kinda pushing it a bit

[mossy holly]

I'd say 6 good raptors is a good number

[golden coral]

Could always change numbers for the group limits. But I'm more so going by the whole "20 omnis to kill a rex, half of them die in the attempt" sentiment that was once said

[mossy holly]

Especially in an open field with no cover/trees

[golden coral]

But honestly, it should take more omnis to kill a stego than a trike or rex

[tropic horizon]

Yeah that’s fair I guess

[golden coral]

Or if not more, rather, more omnis should die in the attempt. So if it takes 8 omnis in all three cases, vs the different critters there should be different levels of risks and potential losses for the pack

[tropic horizon]

Ceratopsians in general should be fairly susceptible to pack hunting as that’s kinda what balances them out. Great frontal defense, not so great at fighting several opponents at once

[mossy holly]

That encourages them to then form packs of themselves

[golden coral]

Well yes, ceratopsians shield walls

[tropic horizon]

And I do think stego should be one of the better equipped playables to deal with raptor as I mean, its whole anatomy sort of just counters raptor, it’s meant to be great at defending its sides

[golden coral]

No doubt people will do that with dibble because well, it's just cool to be honest

[mossy holly]

I Wana see a circle of like 5-6 trikes

[golden coral]

Well, "meant" to be, if it was a more accurately designed stego we have, but we have this weird scorpion wannabe xD

[mossy holly]

That'll be a cool shield wall

[wintry halo]

cerato is good but its like a honey badger against bigger creature being able too do some insane hurt before actually dying and a weight bully too anything smaller the body buff can really be a game changer but outside of that a carno will win most of the times against a cerato if it knows both playables well with just the sheer difference in weight and its speed

location and food also play some part when it comes too when they encounter eachother

[frosty heron]

Your point of view could be valid if we take those players you beated as bad players , how do you lose a 2v1 against a Cera with a Carno? man ive beated 2 Ceras with Carno , just taking the ram damage as advantage , the moment I puked I just had to alt bite and trade to win.

The survivality of Cera is bad I can tell you , the playable is noisy , slow as juvie and sub stages , the adult stage isnt as powerfull with the cooldowns , the normal bite whiffs a lot sometimes specially when you codille with other dino. The body buffs are good but situational as you aint gonna find adult Deino/Stego bodies everywhere and at all times, not even adult Tenos since the AI is removed, also with the poor food gain youre always going to expose yourself and those weaknesses are more obvious (youre going to all sources of food you can catch and that is incompatible with staying in certain areas for safety)

Keep in mind I rate the survivality of a playable of how well it can do it going Solo . Carno right now beats Cera in all areas imo, Cera only does good against smaller creatures due to the fast and powerfull alt bite , and even so I bullied Ceras as Pachy enought times to make me doubt.

[flint locust]

Cera can alt bite in water and swims fast
Im idk if this increases ceras chances but :p

[wintry halo]

cerato is fine its a weight bully dilos and omnis struggle with them against carnos and teno there a bad matchup though however you will notice staying in highly dense foliage or a jungle increases ceratos survivability alot expecting too do well in a open area as a slow dino against a bigger faster stronger speed demon your askig for a risky interaction

[leaden remnant]

^^

well cera vs teno is not a bad fight at all

you can bully the teno real big time but if you mess up you're gonna be punished hard for that

[wintry halo]

in a 1v1 i can agree cerato is harder too face then carno but with the new changes its easier too punish a cerato and bait them intoo counters if a teno knows what its doing especially sinds even with puking a teno still has alot of stamina

[torn egret]

Well, I do think "skill" as a player is a thing.
As I've also beaten "bad cera players" who only face tank and hope vomit saves them.
The cera has a low skill floor and higher ceiling I think than say carno. Cause like you said, use the rams for free damage. I have 1v2 carnos as a cera, and killed multiple ceras as a carno.
Your personal skill and experience may differ, but just because alot of people don't use a dino "well", doesn't mean the dino is bad.
Solo Cera is great if you know how to play cover, elevations, and have half decent reactions.
Everyone wants an easy playthrough, where the one who spams first and the most wins.
Ive beaten other Ceras 1v2 and 1v3, Partly luck I'm sure, but You can't say, "cera is bad cause solo bad" when EVERY dino in the game benefits from packs.
Ive killed stegos as a cera, actually fought w a group of stegs the other day and got some compliments. (Rare to find chill stego players lol)
The body down buffs is based on the growth percentage of the kill, not the weight btw, so even getting 1 fg raptor down in a fight makes it survivable.

Plays different from a brawler like teno. I call it the bulldog of the Isle. Rclick is your best friend.

[torn egret]

I've had issues with Dilo's but I think it's just because I haven't played against them enough and haven't played dilo enough to win fights with them. I seem to be a bit late when I bite, (Hit the tail).
But yea, Cera is a beast IF you play it like it's designed. Cera doesn't finish a fight quick imo, It's better for long drawn out fights where you use the vomit and stam to win.

[alpine snow]

It shouldn't take 12 raps for a Stego. And to then go on and say half should die on average? This isnt the real world. In game with maybe, i dont know, 1000 players instead of 100, you could make an argument for that. The game only has so many players and dinos. Thinking it should take 12 raptors to hunt a NON-APEX with only one reliable source of damage (the tail) would not only warrant such a hunt to rarely occur at all (When it is supposed to be THE stego hunting pack dino) but also punish a successful pack who would have lost less despite expressing decent skill (Keeping in mind that implying it SHOULD take 12 means that experienced players are lobbed into your hypothetical).

[golden coral]

Stego is one out of maybe three playables that should be basically invincible to something like a flank attacker that omni is, due to the reach and all. And stego is pretty much an apex, at the least it's up there, so you should treat it like that. And no, omni is not supposed to be the "stego hunting pack dino", that is just not at all how omni or stego should work. It should take a full pack, at least, to take down a trike or rex, and it should be more dangerous to take down a stego than either of those. By all rights, stego should be able to just swipe anything on its flanks off, that's the kind of reach and flexibility that tail would have.

[flint locust]

Semi apex

Yea

[golden coral]

But you are right, omnis hunting things stego sized and more should be very rare, and very costly for the pack.

But it's more so that at the very least it should require a full pack, that currently being 8, and with a far greater risk going for a stego than a trike, due to how the critters work and their options in attacks

And of course we're talking experienced players, on all sides. That's kind of a given for balance talks.

[flint locust]

Woo teamwork

[golden coral]

@alpine snowIf it was said that it'd take 20 omnis for a rex, and half would die in the attempt, then it taking at least 15 of them for a stego, and two thirds dying in the attempt, is perfectly reasonable. Now granted, that old statement may no longer hold true, but if that's the kind of power levels we're talking about, then yeah. Maybe omnis aren't really meant to hunt apex level critters very often or sucessfully.

[alpine snow]

Im not arguing realism. Your idea of what should and shouldn't be are terrible for a game with servers of only 100 players. Right now, Omni is most definitely the stego hunter and has been designed to nearly all of Evrima's lifespan. And then saying you expect 20 raptors if they want to hunt ONE apex? Why would anyone play omni in a world where they need to take up 1/5 of the server to evenn stand a chance at hunting ONE apex.

The game's environment, if following your belief, would leave Omni unplayable...

Also, stego may be a sort of "apex" right now but Im fairly certain it is confirmed as a mid-tier once the rest of the roster comes in. Though, I am not 100% sure on that

[golden coral]

I'm not arguing realism either, I'm arguing how the playables actually work, their plan of attack, defensive capability, and so on. It's not a realism point, it's what's reasonable for the playables in question. And sure, omnis can hunt stegos (so can dilos, ceras, tenos, troodon and so on), but that's more so down to stego being pretty badly designed and nowhere near what a full power stego would be, rather than omnis design. I am not expecting anything, that whole 20 omnis vs a rex was something Dondi once mentioned way back when, talking about AI rex even at that.

And no, it wouldn't. You do not, by any means, need to hunt an apex to be playable, much less viable. You could have omnis punch up to maia/allo/alberto/para/sucho and so on for normal hunts. Nothing at all says you need to normally hunt an apex to be viable or playable. Not sure why you're thinking like that. There's a whole roster of playables after all. And no, stego is no mid tier, it's being removed from officials because it's too big and powerful, and it's getting that new fancy attack and so on. It won't be on officials, at least not for now, and the same goes for rex and trike, because they're apexes and not really "balanced" for the rest.

[dusky surge]

It's not a midtier, not by a longshot

Also given its speed and size, it should at least be given some apex-level treatment, because the idea of a midtier that can neither fight nor flee the apexes is hysterically tragic

Remember how legacy had to make rules specifically to get apexes to not KOS suchos, because it was that easy? Let's not have that again

[flint locust]

Stego is semi apex

[golden coral]

@alpine snowI will grant you, the number of players argument isn't wrong per say, but that's honestly more so an issue with the amount of playables vs players in general. But you could have just the one pack, or maybe two of them, both being 8, and them together hunting something very large and powerful. But not something either packs hunts on their own.

[dusky surge]

Semi-apex isn't a term I acknowledge as a real thing

[golden coral]

I don't think "semiapex" is much of a term, and if anything, it'd fit more for sucho and para. Acro is apparently meant to be up there in power with the apexes, despite not being that powerful or big "for real" and stego is kind of up in the air. On the one hand, it's been said trike and rex will be way more powerful, on the other, it's still being removed from officials because of "too powerful" and all that.

[flint locust]

Soo lowapex or lowtier apex?

[golden coral]

So I think it remains to be seen where exactly any playable lands in terms of power and size and all. But it's less about if any critter is apex or not, and more about how they handle and their abilities for balance

Technically stego could be upped to 8T in size and weight/health and blood. That'd help as well.

But the whole omni vs stego argument is less about size and more about the fact that you have a critter designed for anti-flank, and one being designed to attack the flanks. And with the new pounce requiring landing on the side of the playable, more or less, and no more head/tail pouncing, stego is quite well designed to defend. Or would be if it wasn't so clunky really. But compared to a rex or trike, stego would have far better chances.

So either it'd take more omnis vs a stego than a trike, or more likely, stego would kill more than the trike before it's all said and done due to tail reach and flank attacks from any position

[flint locust]

Ya

Cant imagine rex would be the fastest at turning to avoid being pounced too

[alpine snow]

My thing is they seem to struggle with how they want to approach Omnni's "identity". It is made to be a agile pouncer relying on quit bites/pounces to stack bleed rather than raw damage.

The issue with this design is that they have consistently messed with Omni where either the pounce is broken in a figurative sense (good) and in a literal sense (bugged).

I have always taken Omni has the one playstyle that DOES inherenntly work well in fighting a defensive playstyle. Stego has fast swings and can cover a lot of distance, but these tails can be baited or extended to increase the time (animation) for another omni to run in and bite. And with you saying it is designned to be an "anti-flank", is there confirmation on this? Because defensive-sweep types exist where they are good at punishing aggressive plays but lose when they are the one forced to attack (via baits or hyper-agility)

Similarly, Omni used to be (and still arguably does but server lag) able to handle Teno if it had enough skill. And most of the fight would be Omni actually approaching and focusinng Teno's back-end with the occasional alt claw if they chase

Not saying that that's balanced, juust using this as an example of Omni being able to fight defensive type opponents

[flint locust]

With the current cooldown on stegos tail pouncing could bleed stego--- if pounce decided to work
But I think a stego can protect itself from being pounced very well

[alpine snow]

Sure, but not 12-20 omnis well xD

Arguably 4-7

If not less depending on players who are better than be/ better server lag

[flint locust]

Id say 12 (or 8 because thats max) but if stego corners itself theres not much raptors can do

[golden coral]

Oh no disagreements there. Pounce has consistently been a problem, either being bugged and useless or just overpowered when working. And I think their new idea is the pounce to pin thing, where you're meant to be able to pin larger things, given you meet one or more critera (that we don't really know what they'd be). If that will work out, remains to be seen.

Well, the inherent aim of where the stegos jabs go makes it anti-flank. It literally attacks out its sides with its attacks. It can cover it's flanks far easier and better than most other playables. And sure, omni can bait, but it can bait any playable, and it'd be easier vs something that doesn't have the ability to just cover it's flanks like stego can.

[golden coral]

On the other hand, if the stego does not, it dies to 3 omnis. It's such a badly designed playable really.

It's like, in theory it would be really good, but the playable is just... lacking. But that's what we get for an "AI made" critter turned playable, sort of.

[alpine snow]

I definitely wouldn't say that much, but stego finding terrain to defend itself is fine. Onne of those moments where Dino balance is affected by more than just skill but also environment/resources applicable

[alpine snow]

But compare every other playable. None do as well to stego as Omni does. Dilos arent agile enough (turn speed), similar with carno, Teno can but won't be able to if Stego finds terrain, Troodons cant, Cera....cant? I havent been able to myself but there may be a batter player

[golden coral]

Only problem is that terrain tends to be make it or break it, far more than it should be

[golden coral]

Dilos can, bait, run, get venom, stego die. Or so I've heard at least. They are faster and can use the bait to get hits in. Teno can kind of, stay out of range and smack stego head with tail. Troodon can, better than omni even. Ceras can, with vomit at the least, and if one dies, then the others now have a massive buff.

Carno is the only one that can't do it very well, out of those. And omnis can't do much either if the stego uses terrain, troodon does better there.

Stego basically is terrible if reliant upon its own abilities, but very hard to deal with if using terrain properly. Which is a strange state to be in.

[flint locust]

Stego at its best vs omnis at their worst
Vice-versa

[golden coral]

Pretty much

Which is really weird, and does not bode well for dibble or any other larger, slower playable

[flint locust]

Maybe more mud will be around

Or they brinf back river wallowi g at least in some spots

[golden coral]

Nah, they're going to change that so you can't just stand in mud, they didn't like that happening

[alpine snow]

Well, same thing in several other games like Path of Titans or Beasts of Bermuda. Having an advantagous environment is incredibly important.

Dilos can't against a competent stego. It is like you said, "anti-flank" The dilo has to get a perfectly timed bite or a drive by because tail bites do not apply venom. Stego can very easily punish this more often thann not and one shot it all the same as omni

Cera used to be able to easily but idk now. Id say maybe with at least 3-4 ceras (what you needed before to insta vomit a stego). Onnly issue is that damage reduction isnt as good as you think. It got nerfed way back AND the amount you get depends on the size of the body. i dont know the actual number but its likely only like 5-8% which means stego will still kill them in the same amounnt of hits 95% of the time

[flint locust]

I meant to stop bleeding

Dang didnt know they nerfed dmg red that hard

[alpine snow]

What was it on release? 15/25%

I dont remember

[flint locust]

Mm stego based im sure a well coordinated pack could wipe one
One that doesnt know will get stomped on
Stego is good at what it does C:

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, but that doesn't mean it's good. If terrain determines your ability to live or die over your own skill and playable, I'd consider that very questionable at the least. Unless you're specifically meant to use a biome, like swimming or flying. But the way terrain counters pounce and lunge, while being very hard, if not impossible to counter without, doesn't really lend itself to very engaging or interesting encounters and fights.

Dilo can, they can go for the head as it were. Which is what they want to do, better venom and they're fast. They don't attack the flanks. They do the carno thing, basically. Bait swing, run by head. And yes, a stego can punish it, but dilo is quick enough to capitalize on a bait. So it's doable, and if you do get the full venom, then it's kind of over. And you don't need to, or should, solo the stego anyway. But as a group of dilos, go for it.

Cera kind of works the same, solo it's not very doable, but in a group, you very much can. And after one vomit, it's a matter of attrition, more or less. Also what now, since when was that changed. Because last I heard, the defensive buff is 50%. So if you have that, then you can take a headshot from a stego, and live. Something you normally can't.

Was unaware that changed, don't recall any notes about it, I don't think at least. But back then you got a massive defensive buff, and going from dying to a headshot, to surviving one, is quite the buff when it comes to it being a stego that hit you.

[golden coral]

50% at most, I believe.

[alpine snow]

I had gotten into a discussion with someone because they believed cera to be weak ( I argued otherwise) and that is what I was told

[golden coral]

Some people claimed 80% but it was never that high, but it was at the very least strong enough to allow cera to survive a 1250 base damage headshot

And cera, to my knowledge, has the normal 1.5 multiplier

[alpine snow]

I wish the devs were more transparent ;-;

[golden coral]

Which means the reduction would have to be strong enough to guarantee the cera living a 1875 damage hit

Not sure what that'd be in percentage, but base health, if weight/health applies, is 1350, right?

[flint locust]

Yes hp is that

[alpine snow]

I could be misinformed and I am sorry if I am. All i really disagreed with you on was the comment of Stego requiring such an amount

[golden coral]

I guess I'll see if I can find someone to test with later, see if/how the reduction have changed

[flint locust]

I think 20 is excessive but in raw power probably
Id assume a lot less with bleed

[alpine snow]

Plz dm me what u find. For any context, I am mainly a solo player and only play in packs like 30% of the time. A lot of my experience is capitalizing on environment/stat knowledge. So, I always appreciate accurate info

[golden coral]

Same, maybe it has changed, I'm just arguing of how it used to be. But I don't recall any notes of a change, but I could have missed that patch to be fair. And yeah, I know, but it's nice to talk and discuss in general, so I don't mind. And in general, the amount of omnis is less my concern than the difficulty going for this prey item vs that. Just like how going for a pachy should be far more dangerous, even if two omnis can do it, than going for a galli, or similar sized animal. Same should apply to stego compared to trike and so on.

[flint locust]

Imo 8-12 is a very safe amout IF pounce would land for once

[golden coral]

I personally think it'd be fine if two packs joined up for an apex hunt honestly

[flint locust]

Yes

[golden coral]

Both because it'd be nice if there were multiple packs that normally didn't like each other, but occassionally worked together, and also because of the potential "let them go first, better they die than we do" and the "okay, the target is dead, now to make sure we get the good organs and nutrients"

[flint locust]

Temporary and then they separated after :>

[golden coral]

I'll let you know when I've had some tests done on it!

[golden coral]

Pairs of gigas temporarily joining up to mob a brachi or something, would be cool as well

[alpine snow]

My thing is where can you organically create an environment where that is the requirement to hunt a preferred prey item without any more convenient options? In my eyes, it is one that would only work in artifical ones (community servers). But on servers with only 100 people, these interactions can only organically occur if there is potential opportunity.

I get Omni cant do anything to stego if it is near somewhere it can put its back to, but a stego wont always have that advantage. If Stego is struggling to survive against Dilos and Ceras, I'd definitely want to buff it. But some sort of interaction between it and Omni, in my eyes, need to be set in place to keep the idenity they have shared since Evrima's early days (Omni pack counter/danger Stego)

Keep in mind that "potential opportunity" also includes Omnni population counnt in a server (and stego's) and how many are even playing in packs and how manny would be willing to team up randomly with another pack to hunt the stego

It just doesnt organically occur and wont unless server size increases to something more realistic (1k, but this isnt ever gonna happen)

(Again, I do think 4-7 Omnis is what it takes to hunt a solo stego and I think this works well. Most stegos will be in groups. For Omnis to hunt one, they would need to be lucky enough to find it solo and not near instant-use terrain for defense. All of which are conditions met organically on officials often)

[golden coral]

Eh, I can't agree that omni should be hunting stego, see earlier statements about flank/anti-flank. It, strangely enough, makes more sense for a cera or dilo to do it than omni, honestly. And I don't think that identity, or interaction, should be kept, or that it really was a thing, at the least not a deliberate thing really.

I mean, if we're talking diets and how that works, I am not a fan of the preferred prey really, or at least not the current lists. I would have it be based on how well a playable can hunt something, rather than if a list says to do it or not. And then there's organs that makes almost any doable kill somewhat valuable. So there's that too.

[golden coral]

Don't worry, with how stego is, when rex and trikes come out, no one will play stego anyway!

[golden coral]

If it took 7-8 omnis, I'd agree with it. Since I think it should always take a full pack to hunt anything that large and dangerous.

Aside from that, it's the whole terrain issue, but that's a bit of a separate issue.

[alpine snow]

Which, this is an entirely different argument though. I was just talking on current game. If you dont like the omni/stego treatment they have done, that is fine. I like it, but I only like it because we dont have options like Allo yet

[golden coral]

Fair enough, yeah

[alpine snow]

Nice talking btw. Rarely have a civil discussion on here o-0

[golden coral]

Though judging by peoples complaints, stegos always have terrain available xD

[alpine snow]

when my solo cera found a sleeping stego in the middle of a bush in an open field

[golden coral]

I didn't say it was true, only that people make it sound like it

[alpine snow]

Oh, wasnt disagreeing. Was just making a joke

[golden coral]

But as it stands, I'm more concerned that stego may not be very playable, if/when rex and trike is out, if they're meant to be much more powerful

And the whole "best option against a rex is to not be near"

[alpine snow]

They definitely wont be. THey wont even be able to run away

[golden coral]

So omnis might not even get to hunt stegos very often, depending on how the balance ends up

But I guess it remains to be seen, maybe it won't be as bad as it sounded

[golden coral]

Agreed, it's been pleasant all around!

[foggy sage]

u guys cant hear me?

[flint locust]

When the larger apexes are added i guess mix herds will be more common and larger

[golden coral]

There's that risk, but they could at least send trike and stego to opposite ends of the map if they wanted, and fix that one in particular. Not that mixherding should really be a thing, it's as bad as mixpacking when it comes to balance.

[flint locust]

Yeah they def need to mix up spawns
Spawns will probably be fixed when the map is finished

[hallow hinge]

i wonder when devs gonna fix raptor

i was fighting with my friends 2 vs 1 carno vs raptor we use almost all stam with bites and pounce and he still has %60 bleed

just weird its bleeder but deal not much bleed

[sleek sierra]

2 vs 1 should not be an assumed win my friend. Carno is massive compared to omni and think how embarrassing it would be for the biggest land carni in the game to die to just 2 animals it should be hunting.

[keen plover]

I mean even then use the carno's bite cooldown to get free hits in

2 raptors have more than enough agility and speed to bait out bites. If you're good you'll be able to down the average carno easily

[hallow hinge]

meanwhile during night 2 dilo will do suprise attack and apply venom and just laugh till u die lol and btw i test that bleeding on almost every dino believe me 2 alt bite teno's bleed better than 2 raptor pounce lol

[hallow hinge]

first raptor has almost same cd with carno and good carnos never let u bite they just bite and put distance to do safe maneuver and wait till raptor aproach then run towards them soo just spam this no way to catch and bite

[keen plover]

Same cooldown is fine? Let them bite first then go in. Also its easy to dodge a Carno. If they are good then yeah you probably lose but that's a good carno vs 2 small creatures

[hallow hinge]

i think u forget pounce bugs and lags bro

one bug or lag and u ded

[keen plover]

I never send to pounce though? Lag is lag anyways. Even if Omni is good you're still getting hit?

[hallow hinge]

no u said 2 raptor more than enough potentially maybe yes if they play almost without mistake

and i told u with this lag, bug and cool down issues its not possible if u not playing against newbie.

[grizzled anchor]

@serene orchid Same for ceras. Would also benefit the servers since they would clean up more bodies

[serene orchid]

indeed

I forget, ceras can over eat too yes?

[grizzled anchor]

yes ceras and crocs cant vomit

[serene orchid]

I'll edit my post

[dusky surge]

<@&933486433342222376> some dude's handing out 50 dollar free steam gifts

come grab it while its hot

[peak seal]

#balance-feedback message
A chance to actually hit the hallucinations would be nice

[tropic horizon]

<@&933486433342222376>

[shadow vortex]

Funny enough, but as I remember devs promised that if you bite a hallucination first then you won’t receive any damage from it… As we all know that doesn’t work most of the time

[torn egret]

I’ve tested, you can bite or attack a hallucination and take no dmg. There is no damage threshold either to overcome

Just need your hit to register before dilo starts attack animation

[frail bobcat]

@exotic viper they buffed it to 120 kg

[exotic viper]

I know abouth the hp

Question remains

[slim dragon]

Still 60 kg
But just has 120 health

[golden coral]

Because you enjoy being a troodon, there's your answer

[peak seal]

Troos are fun when you can get a decent pack and not get screwed by the pounces

[keen plover]

So never

[flint locust]

Bruddy mic up on teno or troodon we need to get feedback on its growth

[keen plover]

I've played them both 👍

[flint locust]

Not with me

Bird your messages are so happy and friendly

[flint locust]

#ai-feedback-discussion please

[keen plover]

I hid that channel

[flint locust]

Join vc

[torn egret]

Bro, Dilo dmg has to go down.

Or its atk speed HAS to be at least as slow as a omni.

[steep echo]

I did think it was weird that the two new dinos both got faster bite speeds. I don't know what separates them from the rest to justify that

[torn egret]

It's so stupid. Got FACETANKED as a cera bro. 3 bites for every 1 of mine 😐

[flint locust]

Dilos speed is still 47km but slows down to 44km once at 70% stamina
Dilos 1 call when fully envenomized may sound like footsteps, another dinosaur, or it may be heard from a different direction
Hallucinations damage is halved
Hallucinations are able to be terrain events such as a whirl pool appearing in a river and using some of your dinosaurs stamina, or mud appearing on river banks and slowing you down
Hallucinations despawn after 15s
When fully envenomized, the victims stats will be blacked out (cant see food, water, stamina, diet, or stat modifiers -- You CAN see the blood around your screen, but the status indicator shows a flat line)
Same biteforce, bites slower
ALT attack can be used while sprinting, however does 1/4 the damage but bites significantly faster

?

[dusky surge]

the stamina thing sounds really annoying
i prefer troodon to do the mimicry thing, not dilo
hallucination damage being halved is fine, although i personally just want dilo's base biteforce reduced
terrain event pretty cool ngl
despawning after 15 seconds is also good because goddamn do they chase
i honestly would prefer troodon to have the blacking out ability, as it messes with your body a lot more
i'd refer lower bite force and similar bite speed
alt-attack while sprinting that does 1/4 damage would screw over a LOT of people with manual alt attacks turned off

[flint locust]

thank you!

[unborn iris]

How is manual alt attack off by default still a thing.

I can't imagine any world where that makes sense.

[flint locust]

fr

[kindred zinc]

Seems good, what do you think about changing the venom ?

Like the new Venom would add a delay on your actions and slowly taking down your health but not killing you.

Want ur opinion on that

[torn egret]

I was talking purely about their raw damage. I was complaining on their bite . Their atk speed is nowhere near as slow as Omni is. They can quite literally land three or four bites in the span takes us to do one bite. That damage output is not fair at all. Lol, even if the venom and hallucination damage AGIS have, they still are ridiculously high, DPM

[torn egret]

I actually don’t mind the venom mechanics, but if the hallucinations are going to do as much damage as a regular bite, I think the cool down between hallucination response must be higher. I also think that a good rework to the venom if any is to be made, is to have the damage Increase based on the stage of venation just like Tron. Maybe add two or three more stages of venation until max hallucination damage can occur. That way the hallucinations don’t feel that strong, and it’ll still force players to bite. But any changes the venom will not matter until their attack speed is at least have, or their damages reduced by that. I’m OK with things having a high speed if there damage per bite is much lower.

[kindred zinc]

i agree

[torn egret]

Too many abilities in this game are damage focused. The troodon venom is needed for their size, but dilo can’t have god tier attack speed and also the venom damage as is.
I like the reduced visibility and audio, but it’s so difficult to fight a pack of them solo. They just out damage lol.
Imagine, cera does 150 dmg standard bite every 1.5 seconds or something, dilo can bite 2-3 times in the same time, so 170-255 dmg 😐
Even a rclick tap takes the same time as a cera, minimum 215 base damage.
Plus dilo bleed, it’s too much.

[flint locust]

I think that troodon should have more venom effects like that where as dilo should be confusing

[copper warren]

neurotoxin would be awesome. a paralyzing venom that attacks the respiratory system = mimics low oxygen/drowning effects. your view is dimmed/sounds are muffled

or, a cytotoxic to mimic the "you're within 30 seconds of dying" effect from the immense pain those venoms cause. troo would cause players so much anxiety if they slapped a near-dead effect on their target's screen

[flint locust]

Might be meglania (idk if it has venom or bacteria

Hew suggested some nice things for troodon C:

[torn egret]

I’d love to see troodon get some buffs. Like I think it’s small enough to be able to pounce from any angle. I think giving more stages with additional damage would be beneficial. People don’t play it cause it’s not viable.

[flint locust]

Is this one better?

Dilos speed is still 45.5 as an adult
Dilos 1 call when fully envenomized may sound like dilo footsteps or be heard from a different direction
Hallucinations damage is halved
Hallucinations are able to be terrain events such as a whirl pool appearing in a river and using some of the target dinosaurs stamina to struggle away, or mud appearing on river banks and slowing the victim down
Hallucinations despawn after 15s
When fully envenomized, the victims stats will be blacked out (cant see food, water, stamina, diet, or stat modifiers -- You CAN see the blood around your screen, but the status indicator shows a flat line)
70 biteforce and a slower attack speed
(Unsure of the one below....)
Envenomization depends on target moving, sprinting causes it to last longer and walking causes the regular time and standing makes it dissipate faster

[copper warren]

i'd like to see bacteria myself, i think that is SUCH a neat mechanic and would love to see another dino share it

[torn egret]

Too many mechanics imo.
Its top speed shouldn’t matter or change depending on stamina unless that’s applied to all Dino’s.
Bite force and attack speed is a good tweak imo with venom
Always down for more visual and audio effects
But the duration of envenomation should be based on current stacks of venom.

[flint locust]

I agree with all but the first one
The speed is now a flat 45.5

[torn egret]

The hallucinations affecting terrain is cool, maybe have it also affect heal rates or bleed etc.

[torn egret]

The current speed of dilo is ok. If they lower stam pool for it

[flint locust]

👍 i can do that
Ill work on revising it

[flint locust]

Ahh ye will change it thansk C:

[torn egret]

You trying to make a “stat” block for Dilo based on what people want changed?

[flint locust]

Little bit but most of there are things I think should be different

Imo dilo doesnt need to summon deino hallucinations ;w;

[torn egret]

I’m ok with punishing players that abuse terrain lol. I don’t think it should grab people, maybe a stun and standard venom dmg lol.

Maybe a slow mechanic for troodon venom will be dope?

Lowers speed based on bites taken up to a point, like 4/5 speed becomes max after 5 stages of venom or something.
Too many times have things just ran away and troodon can’t do anything lol

[flint locust]

Troodon should exhaust and deteriorate players
Things that physically harm dinos
Enough to kill small things but also defend themselves if confronted by a large creature

It should also stop blood from clotting so the target will bleed for the duration of the fight
Shouldnt do a lot of bleed but be enough to eventually become a threat

[frail bobcat]

<@&933486433342222376> Get your free totally legit Money with no Drawbacks here!!!

[flint locust]

Dilophosaurus Tweaks

The creature at night that lurks just beyond the corner of your eye needs a few tweaks to make it have more depth

Stats

➤ Stamina lowered to (duration)
➤ Biteforce lowered to 70, slower attack speed

Venom

➤ Venom tiers affect its duration, meaning you have a more limited time to get the targeted to tier 3
➤ When a target is fully envenomated, their stats appear blacked out, including the status indicator and any stat modifiers. The player can still see the blood around their screen
➤ Venom scales with weight. This means heftier creatures will require more effort to envenomate than smaller

Hallucinations

Hallucinations are mostly dilos, but are also able to affect terrain to the targeted dinosaur
➤ Hallucination damage is halved
➤ They despawn after 15s and cannot be spawned if the dilo is too far
➤ Those who are fully envenomated must be aware of their surroundings because dilo chuffs can cause the terrain to get dangerous. Terrain ones use all three chuffs by holding rmb
╰┈➤Types of terrain hallucinations
Water
-Whirlpools that cause targets to struggle and lose stamina
-Waves push out staggering the envenomated
-Dilo hallucinations can swim
Land
-Quicksand appears alongside riverbanks or plains that can slow the victim, engulfing them should they not move
-Dilo hallucinations can climb slowly
Weather
-'Rain' that acts similar to hypsis spit, needing to be wiped off
-For flying creatures like quetz, lightning strikes can make it stumble and have to readjust itself. These dont do much damage.

Sorry for kind of a text wall I wanna get feedback before I post it
Should be noted I want terrain hallucinations to not prevent them from escaping and hope these dont make it impossible to find safety

[flint locust]

;w; i love the idea of the player needing to be completely alert and conserve their stamina even more due to them not being able to see it

[tulip rose]

i hope they will do that haha

[hexed tapir]

do you guys think it's a good idea that they are adding another attack for stego that increases it's damage and it can hit from all directions

[junior harness]

It sounds kind of like a charge attack of sorts, and considering the stego has to hold its tail up and pretty much advertise that it's using this attack to the target, I don't mind it too much

I'd only see this as an issue to larger, less agile dinos that aren't in the roster yet. But that might make sense given it's supposed to be buffed to go against rex

[hexed tapir]

deino should be able to 1 hit stego it should be up there with rex it could even kill a rex irl but they are willing to chance the camera system for realism but not make a crocodile that's 40 feet long and could kill spino easily able to kill something with a head the size of a pumpkin

[golden coral]

Yes. Considering what stego will be up against, it might help, at least in part. To be fair, stego could do with more than that, but it's something at least.

[hexed tapir]

is everyone on board for a stego buff

[golden coral]

Which kind of makes it less useful, since what stego could use is better ability to handle fast and agile critters, and more defensive ability vs larger critters, rather than trying to fight them "head on", which the charged, more powerful attack seems more like to be. Especially that running "arc" attack. Not quite sure what that's meant to be used against, but we'll have to see how it works out.

[junior harness]

Probably not everyone, but I certainly am as it currently is nerfed for the roster we have right now, and is definitely not going to be much a match for rex if left as is

[golden coral]

Oh I'm sure you'll have lots of opinions, but stego is rather pathetic for what it could be, especially when rex and trike comes along

[hexed tapir]

it does 2 tons of damage

if the rex weights 5.7 tons it can 4 shot it

[golden coral]

Well, both stego and deino could technically one shot each other, and most things would die if they took a thagomizer to the face, even a rex most likely.

[golden coral]

We're liable to get a bigger rex, and no, stego does 1250 damage.

[hexed tapir]

to the head it doesnt

[golden coral]

But since stego may or may not be able to fight off a rex, or at least defend capably, it does need some buffs

[junior harness]

I could see a possible sweep attack that needs to be charged as a good base for dealing with multiple predators. While that current tail sweep can be used to take out one omni, it'd make sense that if two ran in the way of those spiked tails they'd both get impaled (assuming that doesn't happen currently), no?

[hexed tapir]

unless they nerfed it since the last time i played

[golden coral]

I'm not convinced the new attacks are what stego needs, but in general, more options and more interesting and engaging combat is good, so I'll take it

Upping stego to 8T weight/health/blood and and maybe adjusting the new attacks for more AoE and some mobility while using them would be useful as well

[junior harness]

Think it's worth a shot at least, though they probably have more planned under the hood

[hexed tapir]

all im saying is a deino should be able to kill a stego faster than a deino can kill a stego considering almost every time it will get the first bite

[golden coral]

Well, I mean no, but everything does more damage to head, locational

[hexed tapir]

so your saying it does 2.5k damage now to the head

[junior harness]

Deinos will be getting the ability to attempt dragging a stego underwater. From what I heard anyway, I think. It wouldn't be guaranteed though.

[golden coral]

i don't know if you can hit multiple targets with current attack, generally no player will stand right next to each other to try it out xD

[junior harness]

pff, true

[golden coral]

I think it might be guaranteed if the target is in deep water, but not in shallow

At least that would make sense

[junior harness]

That and a smart omni pack would be baiting out that sort of sweep attack if it ends up working how I think it'll work

[hexed tapir]

really it might be snowing in hell if they do that but i feel like it's going to be a 1 in a million chance of it workign

[stark knoll]

Only to other stegos

Stego takes double damage on the head, nothing else

[golden coral]

Most things have a 1.5 multiplier on headshot

[hexed tapir]

the only reason im giving this game my patience is when spino comes out they might possibly buff deino but if they dont do it then im going to path of titans where deino can kill the stuff it should be able to kill

[junior harness]

You also have compies that are able to kill anything as big as their ambitions allow them to kill there, but fair enough if that's the case

[stark knoll]

#isle-discussion message

[hexed tapir]

is saying a bannable offence

[stark knoll]

?????

[slim dragon]

balance > realism

[hexed tapir]

they made the stego realistic in being able to 1 shot anything it comes accross but the deino should be able to 1 shot basically anything it comes across as well but that will never happen

[stark knoll]

Deino can 1shot anything that weighs less than 4000kg using its lunge

[slim dragon]

Stego cannot oneshot anything
And it's damage is not for realism but for balance as stego has no other option than kill anything that comes close to it in order to survive

[slim dragon]

shhhhhh
stego main

[hexed tapir]

i need to ask 1 question does every admin and developer main stego

[golden coral]

So basically, you just want your favourite playable to play the way you want, and don't care about balance at all?

[slim dragon]

yes

[hexed tapir]

i mean they done it with stego

[golden coral]

Because that's kind of how it comes off, "My deino is epic and should be able to kill whatever I think it should, nevermind how the game works or how things should be balanced"

[hexed tapir]

i mean that's how it would be irl and they basically done it with stego already

[stark knoll]

If it was how it was irl, then stego would also 1shot a deino to the head and vice versa

But neither situation happens

[golden coral]

It can only oneshot small stuff, it doesn't even oneshot cerato unless given a headshot. Deino can lunge and kill things via drowning (or biting after putting things underwater/far out in the lake), up to 4T. Deino has greater killing potential than stego does, and a better method to get kills (attacking from hidden position in water, what do stego do, run up at you in the open...)

[hexed tapir]

deino would get the jump in every senerio

[golden coral]

No, I think in general they don't consider stego very highly honestly

[hexed tapir]

what about the people that decide to buff or nerf things do they like stego a lot

[stark knoll]

Stego hasn't gotten any buffs in....

God how long

[hexed tapir]

they are thinking of buffing it again i think if i read that right

[stark knoll]

It got its health increased when everything else got changed back in update 3?

[slim dragon]

Has it ever got any ?
Bar the universal HP to weight buff that upped its HP from 5000 to 6000 ?

[stark knoll]

It's getting a kit rework, as will deino

[golden coral]

If stego was done more realistically, it'd A, be bigger (up to 8T) and B, it'd have proper swings, not thesed weird scorpion jabs, and C, it would also be immune to knockdown because apparently real life stegos learnt to compete with sauropods, oh and D, it wouldnt be able to run, because real life stegos could not run to save their lives. And so on. Oh and if we went realism, spino would die, rex would reign, omni wouldn't exist, much less pounce, and so on.

[hexed tapir]

oh i thought they already done that with deion

[stark knoll]

There was mention for deinos to possibly be able to drag stegos who hang in the water too deep iirc

[hexed tapir]

deino

[golden coral]

4K to 6K, stego had 4K health back then

[slim dragon]

So equivalent to 4 omnis ?
Woah

[hexed tapir]

i wouldnt say a word about anything that happens if the would just put the alt bite to how it was back in update 6 nothing else not make it fast not increase weight or damage just the alt bite

[golden coral]

Yeah, omnis coming in with 1K health back then, good times xD

[golden coral]

I don't think they've changed the alt bite? Unless you're referring to the "cooldown" anim thing?

[hexed tapir]

when your running and you try to alt bite you cant instantly go from a running to an alt bite you have to let go of shift for about half of a second then bite

[stark knoll]

That was a universal change for every dino

[hexed tapir]

why did they make that change anyways

[slim dragon]

Weight
Being able to cancel a full sprint by alt-bite was basically abuse

Especially with dinos with slow deceleration like carno

[golden coral]

Ah, that was way back, but yeah, no more running and alt biting

[hexed tapir]

did stego even have an alt swing

[golden coral]

No, but it's jabs count similarly

Stegos can't run and immediately jab either

[hexed tapir]

did the atleast make the tail swing slower when they done it to the deino and anything else

[slim dragon]

They didn't make attacks slower

[hexed tapir]

for deino they made the bites slower

[cosmic pelican]

Stegos tail attack is already laughably slow, unless its at a very specific angle

[hexed tapir]

a tail swing should be slow a bite should be very fast

[cosmic pelican]

They made the last part of the bite animation unskippable to stop damage hacks, they didnt decrease its attack speed, the animation is just long

[slim dragon]

stego eats grass

[golden coral]

I think so yes, at least the quick side jab is not as spammable any longer

Most of stegos attacks were already very slow though

[golden coral]

And that angle isn't as fast any more last I tested, so yeah

[cosmic pelican]

Stego is just a joke all around haha

Genuinely the weakest animal in the game

[hexed tapir]

well if they add the ability to have a chance at grabbing things like stego i will be fine until they add spino and ruin deino again by saying spino can easily kill deino and blame it on balance

[slim dragon]

The good thing is, spino will never be as harmful to the game environment as deino is

[junior harness]

Stego is unironically the best pick of prey I would personally go for as an omni. An omni. And I'd be confident about pouncing depending on the situation, too, because of how slow and easily baited they are. Granted I'd likely only take on an adult with a pack, but if there's an unguarded juvi... well, that's just a free snack

[cosmic pelican]

Besides, deino will be far faster in the water

[golden coral]

Deino isn't meant to be all that powerful in the game perhaps, if you really need that powerful of a deino then maybe you should consider another game

Spino in this game is very much a JP monster spino

[junior harness]

Basically, stego definitely could use a kit readjustment as what's being worked on for it right now

[golden coral]

So it's going to be very powerful, enough to tussle with a rex

[cosmic pelican]

Today, me and 2 other omnis casually killed 3 stegos. And I gotta say, its actually sad hoe easy it is

[golden coral]

And deino is probably not going to mess with a rex, unless the rex is going deep into the water

[hexed tapir]

they are willing to change the camera to be more realistic before they make deino more realistic

[golden coral]

Stego is probably the playable that relies the most on terrain

[slim dragon]

The camera change is for gameplay

Realism is secondary in this game

[golden coral]

A stego using terrain = can take 20 omnis. A stego in the open plains = dies to 3-4 of them.

[junior harness]

While using terrain to your advantage isn't a bad thing in my opinion, sometimes you're just in a terrible position to do something (I.E, pouncing prey near a cliff... just a bad idea in general), stego definitely needs a bit of help

[cosmic pelican]

Giving deino 80 000N biteforce to 1 shot itself isnt that fun gameplay

[junior harness]

Especially if stegos were grassland dwellers

[golden coral]

What exactly do you want from deino?

Because at some point, you'll run into playables deino can't square up to, like shant, or camara, or brachi, and so on

[hexed tapir]

it to be like it would be irl like they are putting rex in to be the strongest in the game and basically anything that comes across it besides trike because i know they are going to make trike unkillable for rex as well but that's besides the point i want deino to be king of the rivers like it would be if anything steps foot near water the deino should atleast have a 50 50 chance of killing it

[flint locust]

Do u mean so it cant see above the water without surfacing

[flint locust]

Oh uh

[hexed tapir]

besides shant and that would be insane to think deino could kill it

[flint locust]

I mean if deino is meant to flee from spino I dont think rex would have an issue..

[golden coral]

Problem here being, A, spino that is meant to be very powerful, and B, you need to balance this for the rest of the roster. You could have that level of powerful deino, but then you'd need to limit it massively in other ways probably

[flint locust]

Agreed

[golden coral]

Because it's not going to be fun for a trike or rex to just... instadie to a deino

[tropic horizon]

Deino balance discussion wooo

[hexed tapir]

like they way they are now it's rare for people to run into them now there's places where you can drink without dying to a deino

[junior harness]

Instadying to a deino is already kinda unfun, but at least you can cheese them by just completely avoiding any body of water they'd never be able to get to

[flint locust]

Yeah.. I think deino will be a low apex when taking into account rex trike or spino

Not to say deino cant put up a good fight if it comes across one swimming

[hexed tapir]

at the very lease it should win 75% of the time up aginst spino

least

[tropic horizon]

The addition of gateway is really all the nerf deino needs now that the map is so vast and there are so many safe drinking spots, honestly don’t think Deino needs many changes besides just making it more interesting to play cause man it is boring

[flint locust]

Didnt dondi say its better off fleeing from spino

[junior harness]

Well that sounds unfun for a spino if deinos end up having superior swim speed (deino winning 75% of the time I mean)

[hexed tapir]

yea but are we forgetting a spino has legs

[golden coral]

Correct, and making deino more powerful, would only increase the reason to use those spots, for every other playable, aside from the large sauropods. Is that really good?

[hexed tapir]

a reptile that's bsically dependant on the water should win 75% of the time and like you said the spino can just run on land and easily get away

[flint locust]

We are also forgetting the isles spino is a crocodile mutant with knives for fingers

[tropic horizon]

And it can flip a damn anky as well it’s insanely powerful

[golden coral]

Yeah, spino is apparently not of the "I will run to water/run to land" variety, like beipi is

[flint locust]

The isles spino will not be the one fleeing from an overgrown alligator
Deino will be the one fleeing through the water..

[golden coral]

Spino is pretty much "If I'm on land, and you're not a rex, you should walk away" and "If I'm in water, you should swim away"

[flint locust]

Yeah

[tropic horizon]

Deino is still probably gonna among the fastest things in water short of a beipi so I don’t see that much of an issue

[hexed tapir]

you dont play deino you wouldnt

[flint locust]

Yeah
Deino would be able to take on other things than the high apexes

[hexed tapir]

idk why im even going on about this when 90% of the population hates deinos including the devs it's a lost hope at this point

[tropic horizon]

It’ll be able to escape spino and spino is gonna be pretty rare as is

[flint locust]

For spino hunting deinos in the water it would be similar to a cera catching a resting teno
Teno can outrun cera, deino can outswim spino

[tropic horizon]

And if it isn’t rare then the devs will fix that ig

[flint locust]

Are you saying that because the map lmao

[hexed tapir]

they have nerfed deino every update

[tropic horizon]

No?

[hexed tapir]

even making a 2 second cooldown on it's bite

[golden coral]

I don't think anyone hates deino, much less the devs. It's just that we're looking at it for balance, rather than just "is this realism".

[tropic horizon]

This sucks I agree

[golden coral]

The "cooldown" A, applies to all playables, and B, has to do with anim and not an actual cooldown

[flint locust]

The map isnt finished it has the bare minimum. You can see all the terrain errors after walking for five minutes.
Floods will aid deino, and they are also doing aquatic expansion
The bite cooldown is not specific to deino

[cosmic pelican]

Thats more so an animation problem rather than a balance decision, which is not unique to deino

[tropic horizon]

I think plenty do but those people really have no reason to

[golden coral]

You're also liable to get more semiaquatics to share the waters with, and so on

[tropic horizon]

Other than just bitterness because of how it was in the past

[cosmic pelican]

Pretty much every carnivore that came out before cera suffers from the same thing

[golden coral]

Eh, I still think the entire lunge interaction is bad, because no mechanical counter

[hexed tapir]

i deeply regret complaining any in update 6

[junior harness]

I don't exactly hate deino per say, its existence is more or less an inconvenience since now I have to go out of my way to get safe water, and it can be a bit tedious

[flint locust]

Agreed
Was hoping ya'd be able to struggle while on land at least

[junior harness]

But it is a cool creature, and I'm sure the playstyle has its good sides

[hexed tapir]

and in 3 update i'll deeply regret complaining now because by then they'll have made it 10 times worse

[golden coral]

Yeah, pretty much that. Lack of a mechanical counter makes the only option if you're not large enough to not be lunged be "don't just drink there, stupid"

And I find that rather nonengaging and not very fun or interactive

[tropic horizon]

A short windup to it would be good ig

[flint locust]

You are upset over a scenario you made up in your head

[golden coral]

Could always start with letting you get out of eating/drinking anim quickly

[hexed tapir]

you watch 3 update it'll be worse

well better for you but still

[tropic horizon]

Update 3 deino when it was almost as fast as a stego on land

[golden coral]

People argue "camera lock helps ambush", no, what really helped you ambush in the open was that even if you saw the thing coming at you, you can't always stop eating/drinking in time xD

[flint locust]

FR I couldn't stop eating fast enough!

[hexed tapir]

idk what you do with the speed of it

idc

[golden coral]

Oh and sometimes the eating anim taking one more bite and making you puke or fill the new nutrient slot

Despite not holding down E anymore

[flint locust]

YEAH I HATE THAT XD

[hexed tapir]

it just makes me very disapointed they are going to make the deino a pathetic verson of what it should be

[tropic horizon]

PLEASE I hate how janky this game feels in that department

[flint locust]

You act as if the isle is not subject to chance

[junior harness]

If there were more of a way for deinos to accidentally show themselves while sneaking up to someone (ripples if they get too close to the surface, slight muffled water sounds if they move too quick), then it feels like there would be a bit more to it because then the deino has to have some good self control to not immediately dart up to someone from a whole post-code away, but I know they can't exactly see well underwater at the moment in some cases

[hexed tapir]

you really belive they are going to make it able to kill a rex

[golden coral]

I would like a quick react, kind of like the quick stand up, but canceling eating/drinking and letting you react and move immediately, at a stamina cost

You know, how some critters can react and juke a croc attack

[hexed tapir]

that change would come when hell freezes over

[cosmic pelican]

Every single animal in the game has unfavorable matchups, why should deino be an exception?

[tropic horizon]

I don’t think it’ll be pathetic I just think it’ll be rarer which is fine tbh, just hoping apexes will also be rare

[golden coral]

I mean, they've done that with a lot of playables honestly, and then you got the ones that are well, fictionalized, like troodon and dilo

Who gets really cool (in dilos case at least) abilities they never had for real

[junior harness]

Troodon having venom is honestly kinda cool, especially if they end up implementing some of the cool ideas other users have in mind for the little guys

[tropic horizon]

Or in the case of troodon, existing at all

Troodon existing is a cool ability, they were able to manifest a fake animal into existence

[hexed tapir]

unless they make the spino weight like 15 tons i think if they make the alt bite back the way it was you might be able to kill a spino if your lucky

[golden coral]

Does it need to? Or do you just want it? Because balance isn't neccesarily what we want, but what works. I'd like it if stego could just swipe omnis/troodons off it's sides with an attack, it's tail was flexible enough to make a case for that, but well, we don't have that.

[tropic horizon]

Well tbf almost all of the isles roster may as well be fake animals given how fictionalized they are

[golden coral]

It is, I'm just making the point that most critters aren't really balanced, or even functions, like real life, so deino not being as impressive as it might be for real isn't an exception

[junior harness]

Oh yeah, I figured you were making that point, that's my bad for getting a tad off-course

[flint locust]

Can someone read this and lmk feedback

[golden coral]

Omni is the better example there, literally JP raptor xD

[junior harness]

I do hope troodon works better as a creature in the future, I root for the little fellas

[golden coral]

If it took them more than one pounce to advance a stage on something like a fullgrown stego, I'd like them more xD

[hexed tapir]

if they made the deino able to kill rex i wouldnt mind it having a really long grow time

[junior harness]

Reasonable, it should scale with weight

[flint locust]

Isnt deino getting an ability to overgrow if it has the right conditions

[golden coral]

So should cera bile and dilo venom honestly

[junior harness]

the venom I mean

[golden coral]

5 bites to make a trike or rex puke, combined with puking on the food to rot it

[junior harness]

God I need to reply more often

[tropic horizon]

It can’t really hunt stego well as is and it really shouldn’t be tbh

[golden coral]

I could see some cera gangs going out of their way to ruin a rex day even if they all die for it xD

[tropic horizon]

Believe they’re gonna do that and also I believe that’s how dilo venom works on stego and deino

[flint locust]

Aaa i forgot to change my thing ty

[golden coral]

It apparently can, though I think the reason is that it for some reason drains stam on stego or something

But troodon do actually hunt stegos surprisingly well, even better than omnis due to not having to hang on, thus less effected by terrain

But I just think it's odd that there's no scaling, so if rex and trike were implemented right now, or deino, it just takes three pounces for full envenomation

Not sure how well it works on a deino, but it might work better than people suspect

[tropic horizon]

I wouldn’t go thaaat far in that really, they get two tapped from pecks and if your head is turned to them as a stego then you can easily get a peck off

[junior harness]

Maybe it'll be part of their readjustment? Scaling their venom progression I mean

[tropic horizon]

Or 3 tapped actually due to their new hp values

[hexed tapir]

im just going to tell you right now there's no way they will make deino have venon or anything like that

[flint locust]

Added scaling my phone is abt to die

[junior harness]

Deino doesn't need venom

[golden coral]

Kind of? From what I know, it works on damage inflicted, which is why it requires more bites on larger things, plus locational changing since it affects damage. And a buff at night requiring less damage inflicted or so, so you get venom easier.

[hexed tapir]

deino in update 3 besides the speed and the lunging would be the deino if this game was realistic and if they liked deino and much as they do stego

[golden coral]

Maybe the people that I've seen talking about it were wrong, but apparently troodons can do it quite well. And I'm honestly not sure how you get bitten by a stego, not like it has great reach on the bite, does it?

[golden coral]

Why would deino have venom?

That's a new take, I think that'd be for megalania if anything

[golden coral]

What exactly was so good about deino back then?

[tropic horizon]

It’s more so that it can turn in place pretty quickly for its size and its juust fast enough to catch a troodon trying to pounce onto you, same way with tenos bite and I wish more people would use the bites of these animals on smaller things because they REALLY add up over time

And in the case of troodon it kinda melts them

[hexed tapir]

it could bite at an acceptable speed the alt bite was worth doing stegos could be killed by it

[golden coral]

Huh, fair, never had the opportunity to try, but it sounds interesting at least

[tropic horizon]

But ofc don’t go around trying to bite things to death exclusively lol, doesn’t end super well

[golden coral]

Sounds a bit odd as well that a stego would do that, but I guess that's what we get when we lack proper swings/sweeps

[tropic horizon]

Yeah that’s what happens when your ability is this costly to use

[golden coral]

You can apparently facetank a carno, so it can work

But it's very strange

[tropic horizon]

I find this to be silly but pretty much a non issue as that carno has to literally let you do that

[junior harness]

Doesn't exactly help that stego's swing cost currently is so horrendous, especially when you're up against persistent pack hunters that basically rely on you running out of stam for your main attack

[tropic horizon]

It’s more of a “that’s hilarious when it happens” thing than an actually practical way of killing things

[golden coral]

I would have liked something like a tiny rear up/stomp for the front, since stego does rear up to eat. Makes more sense than it trying to bite honestly. But then again, pachy has a bite too, despite having the whole head to use xD

[junior harness]

wait it rears up to eat

[hexed tapir]

what exactly would you want the deino to be if it was perfectly designed to be how you want it

[tropic horizon]

Yeah I always found it weird that it can’t just like, swing its head while moving

[junior harness]

A small, not-as-damaging stomp attack sounds cool at first, but I wonder how much stam that would end up taking to move its entire body up and down in such a manner. And how easily baitable it could be if it's a slow rear up...

[golden coral]

I wish it worked like the alts, could be used when out of stam at weaker damage and all that

[tropic horizon]

I personally think it’s in the healthiest state it’s ever been in atm

[golden coral]

Yeah, fair, just funny that it's doable

[golden coral]

It does yes, or at least the small ones do when eating from certain bushes

It's somewhat adorable

[hexed tapir]

you know it still does damage it has the ability to bite doesnt that give you guys a problem it can still drown things to death

[stark knoll]

Huh?

[tropic horizon]

What are you trying to say

[hexed tapir]

nevermind im just going to go play deino before you guys dedice to take its ability to bite away

[stark knoll]

Ok

[tropic horizon]

??????????

Okay buddy

Have fun

[junior harness]

Crystal, are you trying to cause conflict? Deino is fine as is. Sure, it's an inconvenience to players who know how to work around it, but that's all it really is. Ones who are sneaky are the only real threats, but those ones I don't mind as much since they thought of a creative way to get food instead of the usual trick

[tropic horizon]

He thinks we want deino to be able to literally do nothing

[junior harness]

If we wanted it to do nothing at that point just remove it from the game

[golden coral]

What? Why would deino not have the ability to bite?

[hexed tapir]

it could cause damage to things that come to drink water did you ever think about that

[golden coral]

I think deino is fine where it is at, power wise. You can delete plenty of playables quite easily with your lunge, you don't need to be able to fight even larger things too.

[junior harness]

The fact deino is getting a kit adjustment at all is, while probably a good thing as it was kinda lacking in my opinion, a surprise

[hexed tapir]

if it's anything besides a nerf it will be a win for me

[golden coral]

I'm honestly not sure why it would need to be able to fight larger things, unlike stego, it can just go "blub blub" into water and be unreachable, at least until we get big enough semiaquatics that can do anything to it, and then it could maybe be considered to give it a death roll or something on swimming things perhaps. If it needs to fight things like spino.

[hexed tapir]

i mean you have to admit a 100% grown gator that's feet long should be able to kill any dinosaur besides the really tall one and shant

[stark knoll]

No

[junior harness]

Well, perhaps if those dinosaurs ended up going in its watery domain, sure there could be a chance if it was persistent enough, and the creature stayed in water that long. Though it does make me wonder if they'll make rex a decent (but not fantastic) swimmer

[hexed tapir]

when the people creating the game are against you and the entire player base i dont really have a say in this do i

[golden coral]

Realistically, sure. Balance for the game, not so sure. Tha'ts the point we're trying to make, there's a difference there.

[golden coral]

No one is against you, we're trying to point out that balance is needed as well

[tropic horizon]

Game Balance: a video game design concept where the strengths of a character are proportionally offset by a drawback in another area to prevent domination of the game by one character.

[hexed tapir]

after balance the deino should be a really strong dinosaur that can kill anything that gets deep in the water with it outside of the water i dont mind what can kill it but in the water it should be the king

[golden coral]

Realistically, stego would oneshot a deino as well, rex would oneshot most things, trike an exception, shant would just flatten things by walking over them probably. Troodon wouldnt be able to do anything, omni would not be pouncing, carno would not be charging. And so on.

[golden coral]

And it might get the ability to drag things down if they're in deep water, so there is that

[hexed tapir]

now do you see them giving a deino the ability to grab and drown a rex

[junior harness]

Ehh... if they're making rex (and spino by proxy) a monster in comparison to is RL counterpart... no

Maybe a young rex

[hexed tapir]

they are going to make the spino what the deino should be besides being able to kill a rex

[golden coral]

If it's in deep water, possibly, yes

[junior harness]

Just because deino can't reliably kill a rex or spino, doesn't mean it's useless

[golden coral]

If it's in shallows, then no, I don't imagine deino would take that fight, much less win it

[golden coral]

Not really. Spino is massive, and has a funny sail on its back. I dont think it'll be ambushing much from the water

[hexed tapir]

in terms of power

[golden coral]

Unless you see "godzilla" there coming at you and don't think to move away xD

But power without the ability to apply it means little

[hexed tapir]

they wont even give it power to begin with so i dont think we have to worry about the applying it part

[golden coral]

Would you trade the ability to ambush for being able to tank more damage and do more damage, when it means you'll never catch anything in the first place?

[junior harness]

I don't know if spino will be getting that grab ability that deinos have, so deino still has that over spinos (probably)

[flint locust]

It will be able to grab with its claws if that counts

[golden coral]

Yeah but that's not quite the same, and more effective under the spino than in front I'd imagine

[hexed tapir]

deino should undoubtably be able to win in the water the majority of the time on land the deino loses easily but in the water it should be able to win

[golden coral]

So probably more to pin down things, or to slap if the spino "rears up" a bit

[flint locust]

Dondi did say deino should swim away from spino

[hexed tapir]

that does make seince

[junior harness]

Well, it'd be a little boring if deino solely ruled the water. Having spino to even the playing field, while not realistic, would be a bit more fun. I'm sure more experienced deino players could learn to take down spinos in deep water, as unlikely of a feat as it'd be

[hexed tapir]

even the playing field not take it over

i understand if the spino gets the jump it wins

[flint locust]

Isnt spino over half the weight of deino

[hexed tapir]

but if the deino gets the jump it should win every time

unless the player sucks

[flint locust]

Spino is like 20 tons deino is 8 tons lilbro

[golden coral]

I don't think our spino is that large at all, no

Maybe 10T, somewhat more, but nowhere near 20

Even shant isn't that large

[hexed tapir]

yea lil bro dont get to ahead of yourself