balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

allo is a plains hunter

and an ambusher

so it's bigger better carno

[eternal oak]

remove the ambusher part and i say i works

[halcyon elk]

Make carno an ambusher/pursuit predator. Wait it actually is that right now.

[dusky surge]

its core identity is an ambusher

in concept art, legacy and dev comments, its an ambusher

[eternal oak]

hes not here yet... so... could still be changed...

[halcyon elk]

Can't we just up cera's resistance and were golden?

[tropic horizon]

Like I don’t see the accel brought up much but it’s actually so insane how easily it can dodge and dance around its opponents with it which is why it should be removed imo

[dusky surge]

considering how much the devs REALLY want it to be an ambusher, yea unlikely

[hallow hinge]

yahh

[dusky surge]

like the devs EXPLICITLY want allosaurus to be an ambusher

[eternal oak]

i dont know why but sure not much i could do about it

[halcyon elk]

Like seriously. Just up the resist with corpses.

[dusky surge]

this is why i dont want carno to be an ambusher, because then it's just smaller, worse allo

[tropic horizon]

Like carnos agility is barely an issue with the accel since you can constantly skid then run and repeat that over and over again to dodge everything

[dusky surge]

oh, and the fact that the ambush niche is really boring for it

[halcyon elk]

And maybe make carno take a moment to fully accelerate. A second might suffice for that.

Two seconds may be pushing it.

[tropic horizon]

Yes PLEASE because insta accel removes one of its biggest weaknesses entirely

[eternal oak]

like, carno was ridiculously fast (great for ambushing), in game they covered it in stripes (great for ambushing) - whereas allo is plainly colored and well... he was slower than carno...

[dusky surge]

fastest animal in the game
sits in a bush for most of the time until something walks by, trying its best to not move and not be seen

[halcyon elk]

Yet he's also a PURSUIT. PREDATOR.

[eternal oak]

that would be deino... ambushing on land is far different and requires a whole lot of travelling to pull of correctly

[halcyon elk]

Meaning he can chase down his prey with speed. Carno CAN ambush. That's always an option. But it doesn't and shouldn't rely on ambushing to get kills.

[dusky surge]

most of EVRIMA ambushes tend to be hiding in a bush lol

[halcyon elk]

Allosaurus is reliant on ambushing due to its lack of speed but fast acceleration.

[dusky surge]

my most success EVER with ambush carno in 6.5 was sitting in a bush near a body and charging anything that came near, then hiding again

[eternal oak]

carno in 6.5 wasnt really a good ambush predator... it wasnt really a good anything...

well actually it was an oddly good pack hunter

[keen plover]

?

[dusky surge]

It was only good at ambush because its charge was still a nuke

Your options were pack hunter or ambusher

[eternal oak]

or DIE

[keen plover]

Allo is reliant on ambush because its main ability is better in an ambush

[halcyon elk]

That's what we know about allosaurus I believe. It being slow and not having a lot of stamina, but having a lot of acceleration and can grapple.

[eternal oak]

but id say ambush carno was best and most fun in update 3...

[keen plover]

Allo won’t be slow

[halcyon elk]

Fair. I mean slower than MOST.

[tropic horizon]

I like ambush carno quite a lot actually, you can do more than just hide in a bush and getting a proper ambush off is amongst the most satisfying things in the game

[keen plover]

At least from dev comments in the last

[halcyon elk]

Unless it is just fast and doesn't have a lot of stam.

[tropic horizon]

There were more interesting ways to pull them off than that but yeah a lot of people just did that which sucks

[eternal oak]

carno is also just more successful when ambushing because of that lacking agility

[halcyon elk]

You can ambush as carno. The difference is that carno is predominantly. A pursuit predator.

[dusky surge]

its high speed makes it good in pursuit tho (especially in plains)

[keen plover]

Just make it turn decently then it won’t be lacking

[eternal oak]

high speed also makes it good in forests... apparently...

[halcyon elk]

Not really.

[eternal oak]

then it would also demolish everything ever

[dusky surge]

not at all lol

[eternal oak]

youd be surprised

[dusky surge]

carno's current charge actually makes it godawful in forests

[keen plover]

Like

Teno would still beat it

Cera dies anyways

[halcyon elk]

That's more cerato lacking resistance rather than carno being too strong I think.

[eternal oak]

just trust me bro i tried this with a buddy - he went cera i went carno - i entered a forest and instantly started annihilating him

ive done the same with dilos

[keen plover]

Yeah

Cera is pathetic.

[dusky surge]

again that's more indicative of cerato's issues than carno's strength in forests

[halcyon elk]

Which is why it's getting its glow up.

[eternal oak]

like i said ive also done it with dilos

[tropic horizon]

[dusky surge]

dilos are terrible against carno

like dilos one true bad matchup is carno

[eternal oak]

i also did it with teno

[dusky surge]

that's inexcusable that teno sucks

[eternal oak]

or forest carno is god

[dusky surge]

like i can't reason how that can happen besides a garbage teno

forest carno should not be beating teno

[eternal oak]

fought the same teno on plains and got destroyed

[dusky surge]

like that just doesn't happen unless the teno is actively bad

[eternal oak]

the teno knew what he was doing

thats why he murdered me when i tried fighting him out of the forest...

[dusky surge]

he should've murdered you harder in the forest

[eternal oak]

but he didnt

which is weird but thats what happened

[dusky surge]

meaning something about the teno is lacking in the skill department

either that or your friend just can't deal with forests

[eternal oak]

teno wasnt my friend. i only fought my friend when he was cera...

same with the dilo

although it is a possibility that im just better in forests but idk...

[halcyon elk]

Maybe you are simply better at working in forests.

Well still, I'm glad diablo gonna be a menace to carnos

Carno can theoretically win if it catches the diablo off guard and rams the sides of it. But the fight would effectively be lost if the diablo sees you before you knock it down.

[eternal oak]

i do think there is a reason behind it. carno is naturally quite tall and therefore the camera would be a bit higher this is a bit different to something like teno who is kinda short. the higher camera means that you can see above all the foliage and easier pick out other players. along with carnos natural height he is also ridiculouly fast. meaning that if you know what you are doing a little you can seriously mess stuff up. and the inagility becomes almost an advantage in forests which it really shouldnt... but it does. the auto object avoidance means you dont really need to worry about it... and being less agile means that you will naturally be more calm when turning which gives you a bit more time to make sure you dont accidentally get stuck in trees in contrast to something like cera who is zoomin all over the place getting stuck in things he didnt see coming... damn i wrote a lot...

[hollow canyon]

I've been playing pretty much Dilo only ever since it dropped and I don't think I've ever even felt threatened by a Carno. If that's Carno's good match up then I don't even want to imagine what its bad match ups look like.

[uncut trellis]

@hushed hound Omni can’t pounce big Dino’s from the front or back anymore, you have to do it from the sides, it’s also gonna get pounce to pin in the future which will allow it to bring down and subdue prey when they have worn down their stam

[alpine plover]

Carno sucks at fighting agile dinos that have high bleed damage like omni and dilo

[alpine plover]

What how lol?

Never once stressed fighting a Carno they're so easy to beat

[tropic horizon]

You are fighting some horrendous carnos then, also Dilo isnt agile in the slightest which greatly increases the favor to carno in their matchup

[alpine plover]

It's agile enough to beat Carno, carno is very weak against bleed

[obtuse ocean]

Carno is crap, if carno is supose to be small tier hunter they will have a easy life. Im not gonna kill the carno as small,but having a carno chasing you is more fun to see when he gives up then im actually scared of dying.

[tropic horizon]

The dilo will be dead before that even matters, it has to trade hits to do damage to carno which is a horrendous idea as dilo

[alpine plover]

How does it trade hits? Wait for them to do an alt bite just a bit of bleed on them and venom

Most of them run away

[tropic horizon]

And what if they don’t alt bite which a good carno won’t, you’re just running directly into the carnos mouth and getting hit anyway. That is trading hits

[scarlet onyx]

Are you thinking in context of a 1v1 because dilo absolutely does not need to facetank carno

[tropic horizon]

In a 1v1 yes it needs to that’s what we’re discussing

Well in a 1v1 the dilo needs to run away lol

[tropic horizon]

It needs to trade hits to stack venom and bleed

[sleek sierra]

It feels like many of the debates on balance come from differing views on what this game is. Is it a dinosaur fighting game? Then yes, it is unbalanced to a degree. Is it a survival and exploration game? Then dinosaurs should not be balanced. You then have to be smart and use your strengths to your advantage.

Carno vs dilo is a great example. Carnotaurus is a large predator, dilo is a medium size predator. Similar to how a African Wild Dog doesn't attack a male lion 1 on 1, nor should a dilo attack a carno.

Raptors are pack hunters and pack hunters use strategy and coordination to bring down larger prey. Not just form a group and all randomly attack with little organization.

At the end of the day, balance is not the answer to playing your dinosaur incorrectly.

[tropic horizon]

Yeah I completely agree with that, dilo vs carno IS a well made encounter since dilo should opt to run away instead of put up a fight and putting up a fight against a competent player is a really bad move

[sleek sierra]

Exactly! Want to fight one, hide in a bush and surprise them with a quick first venom bite and move. Running straight at them in a field is asking to be munched.

[tropic horizon]

Always irks me that some players will complain about certain matchups like deino vs stego when they shouldn’t even be thinking of fighting in the first place like unless the stego is literally giving you a free shot at its head, leave it alone

I guess this game just isn’t about survival to a lot of people

[alpine plover]

Bite from behind them..?

[tropic horizon]

You literally won’t get there if the carno just holds its ground, point is Carno can easily destroy dilo if the dilo allows it to and it should be that way

[hallow hinge]

ahh bro believe me carno just eat raw dilo

[alpine plover]

Well any good player will be able to hold their ground most of the time just know when to back of ig

Yk what I truly don't understand is why rex and other apexs aren't going to be playable on officals for "balancing" reasons yet deino is playable despite being just as powerful

[tropic horizon]

Yeah that’s what dilo should be opting for most of the time

[hallow hinge]

dilos might have chance at night

with cheap shot

[sleek sierra]

Good example of using your strengths to your advantage.

[hallow hinge]

but daytime 1 vs 1 fg carno is suicide

dilo is a bit agile but carno can manage to hit ur tail ever time till u die

[sleek sierra]

Another flaw I see people commit is not knowing when to accept the plan isn't working and to back off. If you're starting to lose and can get away, do so. Don't try to force a failing plan to work just because you were hopeful of its success at the start.

[latent bay]

#balance-feedback message Imagine just trying to play the isle only to get one-shot by an omni because it hit your neck as a pachy with zero wat of defending yourself

Sounds like fun, interactive and engaging combat to me

[dawn falcon]

@uncut trellis Not sure what the growth times are, but someone said teno is only slightly faster now.

[eager goblet]

#balance-feedback message

This is pure carni bias

[dawn falcon]

However, its juvenile stage is now 1 hour, and considering teno grows in what, 4 hours now at perfect diet? Thats 3 hours of subadult and adult.

[sleek sierra]

Do you think a gazelle feels the same way when a leopard grabs it by the throat?? It's an animal game and animals are not all equal.

[latent bay]

It's a game

Do you think you would have fun playing as a 6 tonne Stegosaurus only to get one-shot by a dilo because it hit your head?

[dawn falcon]

Not losing my creature to a one shot, thanks

even deino is a stretch but at least its locked to water

[sleek sierra]

It is a game yes. A game based on animals. And a healthy stego doesn't die from one hit by a dilo. Which is also accurate to real life.

[eager goblet]

I mean caracals can kill Kudu by slitting the throat

Kudus are like 4 times the size of a caracal

[latent bay]

Counter point

In this game, based on animals, animal can take drugs in the form of funny plants that turn them into never ending bottomless kaiju dumpsters, Dilophosaurus can make people trip balls, and Carnotaurus doesn't kill itself ramming into something

[eager goblet]

Pretty accurate

[latent bay]

If you want full realism, then The Isle is not your game, nor is a multi-player one. Someone else has to be on the otherend of the one-shot, nobody likes that when they sit for 3 or 4 or 5 hours before being able to do anything

[eager goblet]

It is a game tho. So my suggestion isn’t very fitting

[latent bay]

It is not fitting in this game

A full realism hyper accurate game a la saurian with hyper realistic combat would probably work in a single-player game

[eager goblet]

Maybe. Thats a better idea

Saurian deserves more love tbh

[sleek sierra]

Which are critiques of the game itself, not the balance. To me the game is most fun when there are creatures you need to avoid because you can't fight them. Creative liberties don't take away from the balance of predator and prey. It doesn't have to be 100% accurate in every single way to still create a hierarchy in the ecosystem. But balancing the game so that a water buffalo can 1 v 1 an elephant is far worse, imo. Like I said earlier, it's all in what you want from the game. You want a balanced fighting game, I want a game that rewards playing to your own strengths and using your enemies weaknesses against them.

[eager goblet]

You have a point

Being smart in this game trumps skill in any situation

[halcyon elk]

Like I might be fighting against the most skilled Omni pack in the game as a solo galli. But I don't gotta fight them. I can just run

[latent bay]

Not adding a mechanic where Omniraptor one-shots a Maiasaura by tearing out its throat is not equivalent to wanting Pachycephalosaurus to be able to defend itself

[halcyon elk]

A pachy should be able to fracture a carno. But in that situation a pachy should after fracturing, run for its life.

[latent bay]

Yes

But it doesn't instantly die because the carno tore out its throat, like the idea suggested

[halcyon elk]

Oh definitely that's just weird.

[latent bay]

Yeah

[tropic horizon]

God that’s reminding me of the deino one shotting stego to the head thing that I see floating around

Like if this game was balanced around realism it would be actually so unfun

[latent bay]

Good LORD do not remind me of those """suggestions"""

[tropic horizon]

Those “suggestions” are just people saying “I am deino biased”

[latent bay]

If the game was balanced around realism, only 1 of every 100 sauropod players would make it to sub-adult, let alone adult

[tropic horizon]

Let’s up the growth to a few years how about that

[latent bay]

That moment when rex and trike would be the only viable characters because they have the best one-shots frfr

[latent bay]

Well

I heard smth abt Apatosaurus, who is only like 20-30 tonnes, being able to live to its 80s

Reptiles as a whole do not stop growing

So like

Adult apato only after the average human dies frfr?

[eager goblet]

Realistically trike should have an OP attack. I mean it just has to

A horn to the stomach of a Rex would kill it

This is beyond an omni tearing a stegos throat out. This is just a fact. If they want trike in this game it should be realistically powerful

[hollow canyon]

I've read that as "Carno is bad at fighting the things it's meant to hunt". Also - I'd say it's bad at fighting larger things too, maybe besides Cerato.

Although I guess with the charge being as much of a joke as it is now idk how it would do even in that fight

[latent bay]

Yes

Obviously

But it should be predictable, dodgeable, and because it's a game, shouldn't instantly eviscerate a rex

The ONLY time where one-shots are excusable is when there is a DRASTIC size difference between the parties

Omni VS rex or brachi VS rex for example

Triceratops should be reasonably powerful, but not Thanos snapping all but Cama and brachi in one hit (trike in the current roster is realistically the strongest animal here besides a 12t rex which ties with it)

[hollow canyon]

there's no 12t T.rex

[latent bay]

Bertha

[hollow canyon]

Trike is arguably even smaller

Bertha is fragmentary and has no estimates aside from some video from Vividen

Scotty is the largest T.rex that's widely agreed to be 10.4-10.6t

Cope might be 10.7

[latent bay]

Largest prorsus specimen is 8t, Hatcher, a horridus specimen, can get 10t off skull scaling but skull scaling is bad

[hollow canyon]

Trike is somewhere around 8-9t most possibly 11t depending on how you look at the Nedoceratops

[hollow canyon]

the only Trike that gets to 10t is Nedoceratops/Triceratops albertensis

it's just somewhat arguable whether it is Triceratops proper or not

most people think it to be Trike I believe these days but it'd be a separate species and it has no postcrania so

it's a bit muddy

Shant would very likely roll over either of them because it absolutely dwarfs them being 18t

[latent bay]

T. Albertensis a damn skull fragment

Hatcher is 10t odd skull scaling which is ridiculous at best

By ceratopsian standards at least

[latent bay]

I heard shant was 15 tonnes

[hollow canyon]

I don't think it's ever been 15t

it was 12t, 16t

based on different estimates

these days it's 18t

there was some talk of it potentially being even larger but those are largely debunked

Para is also some 12t apparently

for the largest specimen but hell if I remember just how much of it there was exactly

[latent bay]

13t with cyrtocristatus but yeah smth like that

It can get larger off a footprint specimen but also footprint specimen so it's bad

[hollow canyon]

iirc it was 12t but either way

and yes it was a specimen of cyrtocristatus

and indeed there's a footprint specimen but footprints can be missleading

going off by them there might've been a gigantic time travelling Iguanodon coexisting with Giganoto

[latent bay]

can?

[hollow canyon]

or a giant Giganoto(except footprints are bad so)

[latent bay]

brother man there is no animal to scale in a footprint specimen

[hollow canyon]

yea well the terrain displacement makes them pretty worthless

[latent bay]

You're proving my point aken

[hollow canyon]

they're pretty much more so useful for determining how an animal walks

[latent bay]

Yeah

[hollow canyon]

I mean I think that was my point in the first place

[latent bay]

I will bone wars you about footprints don't tempt me

Call my ass Edward Drinker Cope because my pettiness will not end

Or was it Marsh who started the bone wars

I kinda forget

[hollow canyon]

I don't know how you could bonewar me over something I don't disagree with

[latent bay]

I am messing with you

I am joking good fella

I am telling a bit of a fib to jingle your funny bone a bit

[hollow canyon]

either way regarding the earlier discussion

[hollow canyon]

getting a horn into T.rex's stomach would not be that easy

when you compare what T.rex and Triceratops look like when they're standing in front of one another

to get to the stomach of a T.rex you have to get through its jaws

which is the business end of a T.rex

[halcyon elk]

True, but you could also skewer the head too if you're lucky

[hollow canyon]

skewering the armoured head would be vastly more difficult

[latent bay]

(Realistically it kinda would be tho, trike can turn like 2 or 3 times quicker than T. rex can standing still. Thing is a beyblade with pikes for eyes)

[halcyon elk]

Isn't rex still agile for its size?

[hollow canyon]

idk about Trike turning that fast, I don't think there's been a single study on how quickly it could turn, there have only been studies about it turning its head quickly due to the ball-socket joint

but yes it could likely outturn a T.rex

but turning faster than T.rex prevents it from getting behind you

it doesn't necessarily get you behind/to the side of it though

[latent bay]

Yeah

Trike is some 2x more agile than rex who is some 2x more agile than a carch of similar size who is 2x more agile than spino (that last one doesn't say much tho)

[latent bay]

A buddy of mine contacted Eric Snivley abt it

They said either 2x or 4x when the topic of trike agility VS tyrannosaurus agility came up

[hollow canyon]

hmmm... fair enough although I think that statements taken from the researchers have to be taken with a grain of salt

unless they're backed by a paper

otherwise well... there's Ibrahim with the 10t+ Spinosaurus that we still haven't seen any evidence for some 3 years after that claim

[latent bay]

I've heard snivley is about as good as Hartman tho so idrk

I'm not gonna not believe Snivley abt it

But the salt will be grained

[hollow canyon]

I mean I'm not questioning Snively's reputation or how much he knows about this stuff but I am wary of believing things that are not backed by papers even if they come from people who are knowledgeable in those fields. But let's be realistic here - unless the methodology of the method that led to that conclusion can be appraised and evaluated that's not very scientific. There's been a number of statements from researchers the validity of which has been questioned successfully after the peer reviews so you can't really take any statement at face value unless the whole process gets indeed peer-reviewed.

[latent bay]

I ain't tryna wait for information to be published in a paper that won't happen until 2077 tbf

[eager goblet]

Cyberpunk dinos be like

[dusky surge]

@slim dragon #balance-feedback message

[distant torrent]

I love how it’s still considered very brainless when you genuinely need good timing, coordination, and skill

[dusky surge]

isn't it weird that carno, cera and omni are the balanced once and pachy/teno are the OP ones

[distant torrent]

clearly herbivores need to be nerfed to eat grass and die again

[halcyon elk]

Ngl Gallimimus is the best dinosaur in the game in terms of survival. If it sees you. And you aren't like 5 feet from it, you are not catching it.

[slim dragon]

me when spamming LMB is skill expressive and required thought while having attacks that cost stamina, require precise aiming and timing, lock you in place and punish you for missing is brainless

[dusky surge]

shouldn't've tried it

die like a good herbi

[slim dragon]

The notion that teno should run away from a cera or a carno is eh

[dusky surge]

teno doesn't even have anything that can make a predator back off effectively like fractures

predators often prefer to fight to the death

[slim dragon]

Yeah
Some engagements would be way more interesting if people valued their lives

As much as I don't like long growth times, they're a step in that direction

As were the stamina changes (although I feel the fact you can't regen stamina once you're under 25% is dumb)

Because you may want to escape and save your life, but surprise, you can't because your stamina is at 24.96%

In fact
Stamina bars are just 25% shorter than the UI shows

[heady bobcat]

Is the 1s cooldown real？

[tropic horizon]

It got patched out in the hordetest

[frail bobcat]

this is very nice to hear

[tropic horizon]

Now my cerato can actually use its mouth without taking a moment to ponder his decisions

[eager goblet]

#balance-feedback message
@white dagger I agree

Do you think a lion irl is gonna wait three seconds before trying to bite again if it missed? Thats BS.

https://youtu.be/zpTYqcOFEX8?si=dSovakytlSflwyKq

Animals IRL don’t give a damn about cooldowns

[halcyon elk]

@white dagger which ones do you mean?

I can provide reasons as to why they have to exist. Which is for balance purposes

[slim dragon]

I think they're talking about the attack cooldowns that have been patched out of hordetest

[uncut trellis]

Yea they’re gone right?

[halcyon elk]

Oh interesting

[slim dragon]

I've been told so
But I'm not on hordetest so I can't check

[uncut trellis]

I’m gonna try some bigger Dino’s later today, I’ll confirm

[cosmic pelican]

There seems to be a slight delay, Id say 0.5 seconds at most

[uncut trellis]

Does it at least vary among species?

[cosmic pelican]

Dunno for sure, but I doubt

But from my experience it feels great

[onyx lichen]

@eager goblet Troodon is only getting something one thing similar to Dilo's Venom "We are going to give Dilo Ambience, take what works, and alter it for Troodon"

[eager goblet]

Ah okay

So good changes

Thanks for the info!

[onyx lichen]

Troodon is just getting a rework because Dondi isn't satisfied with the venom and they want it to be "Easier to play"

[eager goblet]

Alright, thats actually good. Troodon is extremely difficult to play

[dusky surge]

@trim sphinx Spiro can't come back, migrations don't work on it

Also, do you REALLY want Spiro back, given that it'll still have Gateway's stam system

[deft blaze]

We NEED spiro, it is the single BEST map EVER made

[halcyon elk]

https://tenor.com/view/dbz-abridged-tfs-cell-cell-violently-angry-gif-18642071

[calm ibex]

spiro > gatewat

[dusky surge]

gatewat

[calm ibex]

gatewait, oh wait the wait is over

[slim dragon]

gatewhat ?

[hallow flint]

is omni considered ass rn

[cosmic pelican]

Its rly good with the recent stam changes

[hallow flint]

can it 1v1 a pachy

[cosmic pelican]

If you use terrain well and play patient then yeah definetly, but its not an easy fight

[hallow flint]

can i 1v1 a dilo??

[cosmic pelican]

From my experience you cant win if the dilo is on the same skill level

[hallow flint]

ok ok what about a trash teno vs a solo omni

[cosmic pelican]

1 mistake and youre stage 3, which means death 99% of the time

[hallow flint]

a really good omni

[cosmic pelican]

If the teno doesnt camp then yeah the omni can win

[alpine plover]

Since when has Cell not been violent and angry?

[halcyon elk]

Never, but now he's violently angry.

[craggy pecan]

I think today we are more towards something like that ...

[distant torrent]

I’d personally switch beipi and dryo tbh

[craggy pecan]

skill matchup

[obtuse ocean]

So weight decide tiers ? : P

[slim dragon]

It's a weight chart

[obtuse ocean]

Yea tho so lol,but was not sure if it was also a who are best.

[scarlet onyx]

It's not a weight chart wut lol. Dryo and bepi should be switched imo otherwise it's accurate

[distant torrent]

if it’s indeed not a weight chart and this was spiro dryo and beipi, then I agree with the ranking lol

but dryo now has decent attacks and beipi feels terrible with the migrations, its stam usage, and its adult water breaching

dryo currently feels overall more fun than beipi

[scarlet onyx]

Dryo is a juvie terminator now and I love it

[dusky surge]

it actually got another buff this update with a MUCH higher bite speed

[golden coral]

@tight cove I'd suggest something in between, 50 sounds like a lot, but 20 isn't that much, so maybe a value that would end up with 35 or so would be a good compromise. At least I'd suggest starting with that, rather than go from one extreme to the other as it were.

[tight cove]

Honestly man to me 35 still sounds like a lot but I’d be willing to implement that and see from there because 50 is way too much, idk how the balanced testers green lighted that decision.

[slim dragon]

Idk how the balance team greenlighted the fact that some animals have their most powerful attack have limited uses then they die, while others can use it infinitely

[tight cove]

Like what?

[golden coral]

I agree, 35 is still a lot, but since I don't currently know how much teno needs its stam, how effective the attacks are, and so on I figured it would be better to not "overdo" it. There's been far too many times where changes have been done and we've gone from one extreme to the other. And obviously more than one balance pass can be done, so if 35 is also too much, just try it at 25 and see again.

[slim dragon]

Like cerato, dilo and deino

[tight cove]

Ok yeah your right about cera but for dilo it’s venom is inflicted through regular bites and you have to bite the target every min or else it will wear off so it’s balanced and for deino the lunge does take stam

[slim dragon]

I'm talking about deino's bite
And it's still infinite for dilo since bites don't cost stamina

[tight cove]

Sure, I just want teno how it used to be to where if you know how to play well you’ll do good but if you just brainlessly spam attacks like you can rn you would die, rn teno takes no skill just RMB 😂

[tight cove]

All regular bites won’t take stam though that’s just the default case so you can always do something if someone attacks you and you have no stam it’s just how it is I guess

[slim dragon]

except if you're a herbi because they have pathetically weak bites

[tight cove]

Sure, but for the most part the herbivores have a more powerful special ability than the carnivore counterparts so it’s balanced

https://tenor.com/view/it-is-what-it-is-it-is-eet-eet-iz-iz-gif-17896182

[slim dragon]

wut
What herbivore has a more powerful ability than its carnivore counterpart

[tight cove]

Idk all of them at the top of my head but if we’re going by the weight classes, tenos kick and tail slam combo does more dmg than carnos charge, pachys head butt does more dmg than Omnis pounce and it’s more effective than Omni rn since all pounces got universally nerfed and etc.

Also

Teno is stronger than cera by far especially the kicks

[slim dragon]

Pachy's headbutt does less damage than omni's pounce by a very large margin
Teno needs to use to attacks to equal carno's charge damage, or cerato's charge bite, which also does not cost stamina
Stego's jab can oneshot anything with 1250 hp or less, with good timing and sufficient aim
Deino's lunge can oneshot anything with 4000 hp or less, and can be used from under the water to reach targets otherwise too far away

[slim dragon]

Is that a problem ?

[tight cove]

Nah, teno just needs its attack stam nerfed like I said previously

[slim dragon]

I don't like the idea of nerfing a creature by making it unable to defend itself at all once a certain amount of time has passed

[tight cove]

Do you by any chance know the numbers for Omni pounce dmg and carno charge?

[tight cove]

What do you mean by a certain amount of time has passed?

[slim dragon]

I think carno's charge is 300 damage
Omni pounce is harder to calculate, but it can deal at the very least 500 raw damage (while also doing 3x bleed)

[slim dragon]

You expend your stamina during combat, until you no longer have it

[tight cove]

I think tenos kick actually does do 300 dmg but I could be wrong, but either way since it also stuns you get a free 2nd hit doing even more dmg, as for Omni doing 500 dmg let get real bro your gonna buck it off or rub it off using a tree before it ever does nearly any of that dmg.

[slim dragon]

I said at the very least 500 damage, it does way more
Teno's kick does less than 300, unless it was buffed recently

[tight cove]

but Honestly that’s on you though for the most part, if you couldn’t kill whatever was attacking you or run from it if the creature has a reasonable amount of stamina

[tight cove]

Omni does not do 500 dmg with pounce if you buck

And that’s if you even land the pounce with the recent change

Good luck with that lol

At the end of the day though as it is right now the fact that no creature spends stam on regular bites is balanced since there’s so many factors in a fight it’s not all about the bites IMO

[slim dragon]

It is for creatures that use bites as their main attack

[tight cove]

Cera mainly relies on bacteria and without it it’s super weak (even though it already is) dilo uses venom and not the raw bite dmg directly, and deino just uses its lunge

[slim dragon]

Oh that's right
How does cera and dilo apply bacteria and venom, respectively ? I think I forgot
Also if a deino uses lunge in a fight either it's already won either it's against a stego and the deino is wasting its stamina for nothing

[tight cove]

Alright bro, to me it’s balanced rn I said all I wanted to say about that.

[dusky surge]

A 6% stam cost is a one-way ticket to rocket tenonto into unviable lol

We had a patch where teno's kick costed that much with Gateway stam and it was garbage

[keen plover]

Yeah genuinely the worst time to play teno lol

[dusky surge]

like the 2% seems low, but it adds up

especially when a good player vs teno will have teno missing a LOT of hits due to their downsides

[cosmic pelican]

An unanswered pounce does around 880dmg, ofc youll most likely never deal that much dmg in a real fight

[odd pebble]

@tight cove while i do agree that the current stam cost on teno's attacks has led players to become too comfortable in spamming their attacks, i also encourage you to look at this from a different perspective, that being when a teno has to fend off multiple aggressors. While a teno can comfortably spam its attacks against a solo carno or cera it will be punished if it does that against multiple of them

Add that to the fact that stam regen is pretty bad if you get below 60%, i think its not a big deal

Teno needs its current stam values to fend off an average carno duo. Tho im not against slightly increasing the stam cost, maybe 1 or 2 %

[quick cargo]

@alpine plover have you missed the whole point of cera?

[distant torrent]

nah it doesn’t need a 1 or 2% increase because

• the kick hitbox in incredibly small
• tail slam does a pathetic 150 damage, costs more stam than a kick, and is easily baited

if you ever get the chance to test out the kick I recommend it

the hitbox is genuinely awful and could be a lot better. I salute tenos who have good coordination and skill to consistently hit kicks

(not to mention the painful cooldown between each attack)

people skillful enough to be good with teno have my respect and my terror lol

[tropic horizon]

Not saying tenos op or anything but I do think you’re wrong in those regards, the hitbox for both the kick and tail slam are incredibly forgiving and even baiting it out sometimes will often result in hits that look like they really shouldn’t be landing

For reference me and my friend did testing a bit ago and this is the tailslam hitbox

Like the tip of the tail barely collides with the cera and knocks it down which is pretty much guaranteed death to a cera

[distant torrent]

that’s the terrible ping. in a low ping server, its very small. I tested it with an alt of mine a while ago

[tropic horizon]

This was a low ping sever, wasn’t moving at all and he hit me from there

You can see my ping right there

[distant torrent]

46 ping is pretty high

[tropic horizon]

?

No?

When you get into the 100s that’s when the game starts breaking

[distant torrent]

I get around 20-30. 40s is when things get weird for my and hits don’t land or they hit from far away

100 is death

literal death

[tropic horizon]

40 is like, completely normal for me and the game runs fine but idk this tends to vary from player to player

[distant torrent]

I personally blame latency

[tropic horizon]

But the hitbox is sort of an L shape from the tail slam

Like to visualize it

On either side of the teno that’s how enormous the hitbox is

[stark knoll]

That's because you can aim it

[distant torrent]

though I will note that my alt occasionally appeared in a completely different location from what I saw on my main monitor until I moved. no idea what that was about and I never tested how it’d affect the hitbox

[stark knoll]

The last half of the tail curves where your camera is facing

[tropic horizon]

Doesn’t really look like it should be knocking things down, the tail doesn’t even graze the cera and it gets CCed

[cosmic pelican]

Only the base of the tail does 150, the tip of the tail only does a measly 100dmg.
This was added in the same patch when tenos stam went back to spiro values

[tropic horizon]

Like the tip of the tail just barely grazes the cera, and then that results in a knockdown and after that you’ve pretty much lost

[distant torrent]

I didn’t know that that’s actually interesting

[tropic horizon]

And it’s a lot harder to bait as a result because sometimes you’ll just get knocked down for no reason and after that happens well you pretty much die

[tight cove]

I see your point in teno needing enough stam to defend itself from multiple attackers and I agree to that to a certain point so I’m willing to adjust the % values a bit but 50 attacks I feel like is still way to much and way to forgiving, also I’m ngl even with teno having enormous amounts of stam rn, if 2 carnos pull up or even 3 your still most likely gonna die if there good carnos.

[tight cove]

Good luck trying to bait a teno when it can attack 50 times in a row

[odd pebble]

Yes i agree 50 attacks is too much so only a small increase is required

[odd pebble]

I agree to an extent that the kick hitbox is small and hard to land. But as someone who has mained teno since update 4 and mostly plays defense, its not that hard to predict and do optimal combos with kick and slam. Teno having waay too many attacks coupled with its high dmg and bleed output is reducing the otherwise high skill floor of the playable

It doesnt need an insane increase in stam cost, just a measly 1 or 2 percent will do the job just fine. Good tenos will continue to thrive and bad tenos will be weeded out as usual

[tropic horizon]

50 attacks that also have the ability to just hit you when they shouldn’t be able to

Like the image above I showed is just kinda nuts

The tail doesn’t even hit me, still knocks me and puts me at a guaranteed loss tho

[odd pebble]

Yk i would have disagreed with you in the past but since ive been trying out cera a lot more recently, this just hits me right in the feels

[scarlet onyx]

It's insane.

[tropic horizon]

Fighting teno as cera is like the most insane discrepancy in effort between both sides

[scarlet onyx]

Personally I play teno and I was doing just fine with the 8% cost tail slams. Having 50 something attacks before getting tired is nuts and unnecessary

[odd pebble]

Well tbf a solo cera should have a rough time against a teno

[tight cove]

Not only does cera lose the fight against a teno it cant run from it either since it’s slower, has less running stam, and has a slower trot 🤣

[tropic horizon]

I know, and I like it for that genuinely one of my favorite fights in the game but man is it demoralizing to get put into the ground because of stuff like this

[tight cove]

But hey when I ask for a cera buff nobody seems to like that idea even though it can’t compete within its own weight tier at all lmfao 😂

[odd pebble]

I'd like to see an increase in stam costs in the current build of horde testing to see how it works out,since not being able to regen while trotting was the biggest issue in the past

[odd pebble]

I want cera buffs

[dawn falcon]

It’s a good thing Dondi is not going to buff Cera, huh

(Sarcasm)

[hollow canyon]

And here I am playing with 20 ping and still rubberbanding all over the map. Half my fights look like I'm playing some anime game where characters just blink around and hit each other ten thousand times per second, or they dish out their attacks, run past each other and then a few seconds later someone dies.

[distant torrent]

epic games try to keep stable servers edition (impossible)

[keen plover]

If a teno truly does spam then it gets folded lol

If anything, being immune to charge as long as the slam animation is active is pretty lame

[hollow canyon]

it's... dumb

and a slamming Tenonto should be dying

[tropic horizon]

*Immune to all forms of stun for some reason :/

[keen plover]

it's a bit goofy ngl

[tropic horizon]

This hitbox is very goofy

[keen plover]

Now I do think cancelling ram is fine, but there should be some timing

[keen plover]

It has a bit of range to the side tbf

[tropic horizon]

Its kind of ridiculous range tho, the tail doesnt even collide with you physically and you get stunned because ig the slam was scary

[keen plover]

Maybe, but it would be nice to see the teno's pov

[tropic horizon]

Gonna get my friend to record a clip rn

[keen plover]

ok

I wouldn't be surprised if the hitbox wasn't accurate to the model

Maybe has some leeway

[tropic horizon]

just found an even more broken hitbox

[keen plover]

?

[tropic horizon]

we're testing rn and we found an even more busted angle

[dusky surge]

@limber oracle that's a stagger, they make you stumble back from the source of the attack

if it didn't move you back, teno would honestly have a much easier time comboing kicks so its actually better for you that it does move you away

[limber oracle]

I really like this idea, but it's not executed this way. I'm literally being pulled inward FOR a combo in this clip.

[tropic horizon]

Yeah the kick tends to have a gravitational pull and combining that with server desync and lag, you get really terrible results

[winter iris]

Question: does dilo (or other playables) have better night vision than others ? Meaning they see further at night? Thanks

[golden coral]

Yes, Dilo, Dryo and Troodon, last I checked, have better NV than most. Cera and Stego have worse NV than most on the other hand.

[trim fern]

Punishing pachy players for fighting back instead of running is bs

Also the point of pachy is that they are hotheads that attack anything just like rams

[dusky surge]

you realise the suggestion they made is a BUFF for pachy fighting instead of running, right?

[trim fern]

Doesn't look like it

[dusky surge]

if we're talking about the same most recent one

It is. Currently pachy just... can't stun larger animals. At all.

This would give it 3 stuns, not much, but more than what it has, and enough to land hits without getting counterattacks

They aren't suggesting to remove the knockdowns it has against stuff like dilo or omni

[trim fern]

Thought it was saying for all dinos

[dusky surge]

Just to give pachy stuns against animals that they can fracture, but can't stun

[dusky surge]

It mentions "larger animals" and never mentions "all dinos", so it's safe to assume that's not the intention

[trim fern]

So Cera and carno?

[dusky surge]

ya

[trim fern]

Nvm

I thought it was for all dinos

[dusky surge]

i'd agree that it'd be bad if it were for all

[trim fern]

Thank you broseph

Pachy supremacy >:3

[onyx lichen]

@ember iris Troodon already got a venom change in Horde Testing growth, It gets venom at 40% Growth now

[ember iris]

I actually just seen that today, I was pleasantly suprised 😄
Thanks for the exact growth % needed!

[winter iris]

Maybe it’s just my impression, but isn’t the dilo bite hitbox a bit too small?

[thin mantle]

Nah it’s fine

[dapper tendon]

Wait, on the carno suggestion..... When I was a fg tenno, was I not supposed to die to a carno despite landing constant head/body shots (mostly head) with tail slam? I thought maybe damage for tail slam had been super nerfed or something, cause I don't play bigger dinos much O.o

[cosmic pelican]

Tenos tailslam does pathetic damage. 150 if you hit them with the base of the tail, 100 if you hit them with the tip

You need to use kicks for dmg

[tropic horizon]

Use the tail slam for stuns and the kicks and claws for dps and bleed

[dapper tendon]

Ahh, okay, thank you!

[hollow canyon]

Like people above have said - kicks do more damage than tailslam.

Having said that - Teno can win against Carno using just the tailslam just fine so it's up to you really. The fact that you have CC on the tailslam and the fact that you attack faster than Carno will let you win against it no matter what unless you play it very poorly.

[eager goblet]

contrary to popular belief crocodiles can't actually hold their breath for very long. 15 mins ish
#balance-feedback message

Wait that seems to be incorrect depending on who you ask

nvm ignore me

Hippos can only hold their breath for 5 tho

[dapper tendon]

I had myself in a narrow path with cliffs on either side, tried to avoid it's charging ( with some success), and it couldn't get at my head. I was very surprised, honestly. This was on either na 1 or 2, so it's also possible I just ran into one of the 20 million hackers people keep complaining about on those servers?

[hollow canyon]

I think it might be a bit longer but yes they don't necessarily hold it for long at least if they move around, if they just stay still they can hold it for longer iirc

[hollow canyon]

you'd probably instadie to a Carno that was hacking so I don't necessarily think that's it

but depending on the circumstances you probably shouldn't be losing a facetank against a Carno with tailslams vs bites

Carno has a lower dps than Teno slam unless you're hitting with the tip of the tail as stated in the messages above

furthermore you have the stun

nevertheless the kick is vastly superior on Teno

use kick over tailslam whenever you can

the kicks isn't good just because of the higher damage output either

it's twice more effective because it applies bleed and Carno absolutely hates bleed

simply because it has the lowest bleed resistance in the game

and it's reliant on running around during a fight

if you kick it a few times it will actually have to worry about bleeding out during or after the fight

but as stated before - you CAN just kill it with the slam if you don't mess up the timings and are decently good with Teno

Aside from the fact that you just dish out more dps with the slam than it does with the bites you also have the advantage of being bitten from the back which might make some of the attacks land on the base of your tail and legs rather than on your body all that while you land headshots yourself

but even in a direct body to body hits trades Tenonto dishes out higher dps with the base of its tail than Carno does with the bites

[eager goblet]

Yeah

[hollow canyon]

that's because Carno has an absolutely pathetic dps due to a very subpar attack rate

[eager goblet]

Moving consumes oxygen

[hollow canyon]

yea

[dapper tendon]

Thank you! That was more information in one go than all the scouring I've done so far

[shadow vortex]

Why does this attack cooldown still exist on horde test, bruv

[hollow canyon]

you're welcome

[slim dragon]

no <@&933486433342222376>

[dawn falcon]

I don't think herrera should be nerfed at all.

Herrera for once is an actually good and worthwhile playable

Just keep your eyes open and don't fall for baits

[plush cove]

Right?
Herrera is like low dmg and low hp if its not about the jump-off-attack.

Lots of people just often go for like the 1st dead boar under a tree and wonder why they get trapped. Its like the only thing herrera is good at, sneak attacks.
Its terrible in battles on the ground.
If you are cerato just bite back one time and the herrera is like almost gone.
Bite back a 2nd time and its totally dead, meanwhile a herrera probably has to hit you like 30 times if you are cerato.

[keen plover]

3 herreras got them in a row and they still lived. I don’t see the issue here

[elder nebula]

@onyx lichen THREE HERRAS?! Yeah no you deserve that 25 percent lmao

[onyx lichen]

2 of them fell on me at the same time

[elder nebula]

Were you eating or something?

[onyx lichen]

Yeah

[elder nebula]

Sounds like you got baited

Unfortunate but I wouldn't nerf Herras because of it

[onyx lichen]

I was a cera with 60% Bleed resistance

[elder nebula]

Still, you got hit by three of em

[keen plover]

You take more bleed the lower health you're at

[onyx lichen]

That's the thing, I never went to wounded state

[keen plover]

I get that but you were under a threshold where you'd still take more bleed damage

[onyx lichen]

I was above 50% health, and still had the 50% bleed resistance with Cera

[keen plover]

at 75% health you take more bleed damage than someone at 100%

[dawn falcon]

To be fair that’s also a problem

[onyx lichen]

Cera has 50% Bleed resistance until it goes below half Health

[dawn falcon]

The eating “cooldown” needs to go imo

At least let locomotion cancel your eating animation

[elder nebula]

Yeah, some dinos have really long ending eat animations, Omni especially

[keen plover]

I'm just saying overall you're not as resistant at that health iirc. Either way 3 of them landed on you and you lived

[dawn falcon]

It just means Herreras are for once actually competent

[elder nebula]

It's incredibly strange water doesn't have this too

[dawn falcon]

Getting the jump on you twice without the game thinking “they bonked into each other” is astounding

[onyx lichen]

I think Filipe did mention it being too strong or something

[elder nebula]

Only meat eaters are really affected

[keen plover]

I mean it was nerfed once already

[dawn falcon]

Pachys eating animation takes 5 years to go through the whole thing

[onyx lichen]

If it can make a Cera nearly bleed out then everything else is just gonna die

[dawn falcon]

I think that’s fair, considering what they did literally took planning

[keen plover]

If 3 of them hit you? I'd hope so ngl

[dawn falcon]

Two of them managed to bonk you all at once without the game thinking they’re suicidal, and then the third one managed to leap at you?
That’s good coordination

[onyx lichen]

I meant like 1 doing great bleed

[dawn falcon]

How long did it take you to lose all that blood

[onyx lichen]

About a minute or 2

[dawn falcon]

And I’m assuming you ran after the third got a hit in?

[onyx lichen]

I was right next to the small building next to the dome near east Plains, but yes

But nearly losing over 4/5 of blood with 60% Bleed resistance from 3 attacks seems too strong

[plush cove]

Well herrera has one of the biggest fat-*ss claws of all dinos ingame. It makes sense it has one of the highest bleeding damage.
Besides that, Cera shouldnt be unkillable with bleed even if it has 50% extra resi.
Especially if u got hit by 3 jump-off-attacks, which deal like 10x damage of its normal Hits (Just a guess). So its possible the bleeding caused by the jump is increased too compared to its normal Hits.

If you got hit by 3 herrera jump attacks it means that

1. You ate so long and didnt react even after the first hit, which makes it kind of deserved.
   Or
2. The herreras coordinated their attacks so well that they all jumped on you at the same moment, which would kind of make it deserved too if they coordinated themselves so well.

[onyx lichen]

The first attack had the 2/3 Herreras land on me at the same time

[plush cove]

Yeah idk, dont think they should nerf.
I mean you still survived even tho getting jumped on by 3.

[onyx lichen]

They did that to a Cera which has amazing bleed resistance and 3 tiny tiers dinos did that with 1 attack each which nearly bled it out

60% Bleed resistance in total

[plush cove]

Well yes they are small. Smaller than an Omni, but they can still oneshot it. Its small and has low hp, but the jump attack still does a ton of damage and it has to because if not sneak-attacking its completely helpless.
The fact that its Cera doesnt really matter here because herrera probably got best bleeding damage. They wont be able to kill your health bar, but to bleed you out.

Besides, thats veeery easy to avoid. You are full grown cera. Hunt your own food instead of eating dead bodies near trees.

Dead body near tree = almost always a trap.
If you really gotta risk it, then you have to Grab a piece and run.
I played a lot of herrera and most of the time you just eat AI because none falls for your traps.
But if someone still does Fall for it, grant them their fun and dont ask to straight up nerf it away. It happens rarely enough that you kill a player as herrera. Well maybe you can get some fresh-spawned hungry juvis sometimes.

Or jump on a dilo which then instantly Runs away because you didnt deal enough damage to oneshot it and they totally outrun you.

[scarlet onyx]

Let me guess. Dilo still has the highest dps bite in the game? For some reason?

[hollow canyon]

It never did

[scarlet onyx]

Oh yes it did in hordetest

[hollow canyon]

it definitely didn't

I don't even have to play it to tell you that Dilo has never had the highest DPS bite in the game

Deino has had the highest dps bite in the game ever since it came out... for very obvious reasons

[scarlet onyx]

It did it was the only one to not get a massive cooldown change

I'm talking land playable, deino Is obvious

Deino shouldn't be considered in any balance convo tbh lmao

[hollow canyon]

out of land playables

what was the cooldown of Carno and Cerato?

because Dilo's dps last update was roughly half that of Cerato

[dusky surge]

unless dilo bites 2x faster than cerato, it doesn't do more DPS

[scarlet onyx]

Dunno, like double the animation time.

[dusky surge]

and cerato bites quite fast

[hollow canyon]

Cerato would need to have its attack speed HALVED to get below Dilo's dps

[scarlet onyx]

It absolutely bit 2x faster than cera

[hollow canyon]

Cerato bit just as fast as Dilo last update

I need a video of that to believe it

[scarlet onyx]

Not in hordetext it didn't even come close

Play it yourself the test branch is still up

[hollow canyon]

that'd make Cerato's bite rate lower than that of Deino

Deino with no alt bites

I am not downloading a useless branch just to check some things that are in testing

[scarlet onyx]

Think the branch changes are the same actually but not sure

[hallow hinge]

they add more nerf for raptor and buff dilo LOLL

[dusky surge]

what are you talking about lol

[hallow hinge]

ahh the clown man here again 😄

[dusky surge]

im glad you think about me so often you've given me a name

[hallow hinge]

i am just telling truth u just a clown man

[dusky surge]

anyway care to elaborate or are we just gonna get to the formalities of needless aggression lmao

[hallow hinge]

u actually making me laugh Lol

[hallow hinge]

soo tell me about this lol

[dusky surge]

okay

what are you talking about

what did they nerf about raptor and buff about dilo to be this big a deal

[hallow hinge]

they removed jump kick attack!

[dusky surge]

i dont think thats intentional

you should probably bug report that

[hallow hinge]

we dont know soo i would say that as a nerf

[dusky surge]

it wasnt listed in patch notes, so it wasnt intentional

where is the harm in reporting it and potentially fixing raptor's attacks?

[hallow hinge]

i dont think they care our reports

[dusky surge]

they absolutely do lmao

[hallow hinge]

hmm can u give me an example

[dusky surge]

i have been on the QA team for this game, they have a goddamn spreadsheet of them

EVERY report sent in ends up on there

[hallow hinge]

I did't say they dont get

so can u gimme an example how they care about bug reports

[dusky surge]

every update addresses common reported bugs. For example, the bug that causes herrera to get knocked down when falling from a height that shouldn't damage it

ceratosaurus not getting nutrients from bones was addressed this update

so again, send in a report, because that attack being removed likely was an error

[hallow hinge]

oh i have been sending pounce bug for ages but nothng changed

[cosmic pelican]

Tbf most pounce "bugs" were due to server issues

[keen plover]

Some bugs are easier to fix than others tbf

[hallow hinge]

bro i have been dealing with since than spiro so

thats long long time

and not just only cuz of lag still many many visual bug here too

[dusky surge]

they're still working on pounce bugs tho

[hallow hinge]

it really hard to believe just for same bug remains for ages

[dusky surge]

what same bug

[hallow hinge]

when u pounce in ur screen u just stand air and keep bitting nowhere but u actually managed

even sometimes u can see same thing but actually u could't manage to pounce i even dont know how many times i died cuz of this

[wintry halo]

pounces is one of the hardest things too fix due too how it works

[hallow hinge]

it can be hard but i dont think one bug cannot be fixed like for over a year however they make it even more complex with adding back and face pounce changes

they dont care about balance or what destroys gameplay

[dusky surge]

they do care lol

[hallow hinge]

oh then why they still did't bring unstuck button ?

like almost everyone complain about this

[hallow hinge]

Pls! Answer.

[dusky surge]

an unstuck button doesn't = balance

[hallow hinge]

i guess u dont read what i write

they dont care about balance or "what destroys gameplay" let me help u see lol

[golden coral]

They do care, but maybe not neccesarily for the same things we do. It'd be wrong to say they don't care about balance or bugs of anything. But of course, their idea of balance might differ from ours. And as for unstuck, they don't want it, from what I know. Or there is some potential abuse concerning it that they want to avoid.

What you don't seem to realize is that the devs do care about gameplay and balance, but that doesn't mean it will align with your preferences for how that gameplay should work or how the balance should be

[dusky surge]

pretty much

unstuck button ironically could hurt balance

[hallow hinge]

tell me how it can ?

[tropic horizon]

Clearly they don’t care because my ceratosaurus can’t destroy the entire ecosystem!!1!1!1!

These devs suck!1!1!1!1

[hallow hinge]

+1

[dusky surge]

depends on how the unstuck button works, first of all

[hallow hinge]

u said it can hurt soo tell me how ?

[golden coral]

I don't know what the issue would be, but there's clearly something the devs disagree with, or it's just very hard to make it work. But for whatever reason, we don't have an unstuck ability. But that does not mean it's because the "devs don't care about people being stuck" or some such.

[dusky surge]

depends on how it works, first of all

[tropic horizon]

I mean the devs are testing out the ability to sort of step over obstacles which I think is about as close to an unstuck button as we’ll get

[hallow hinge]

if u dont know how unstuck button works then dont argue about it lol

[tropic horizon]

Cause usually when you get stuck it looks as if your Dino can easily get out but they can’t

[hallow hinge]

its simple bro

it can be like at least sleeping system if u dont want to be abused u can wait like 30 sec

[golden coral]

And when you don't know if the devs care or not, maybe you shouldn't argue that they don't as if that's the given answer

[hallow hinge]

and it can teleport u somwhere close if none close

or if u not in combat

its better than nothng

better than waiting to die cuz of hunger my fully grown dino! Change my mind

[tropic horizon]

Also most of these issues of getting stuck can be fixed with just, ironing out the map which players can report on broken spots that get people stuck so really the best we can do is just report on these glitched spots that are trapping players so that the devs can fix them

[hallow hinge]

i dont know none know but imo they dont give enough attention on game

[hallow hinge]

yeah when i was cera i just accidantly fall on a wall it was just 2 or 3 cm hight but i could't go and just wait there to die and watch my fg dino suffer cuz of hunger

[hallow hinge]

and maybe u should stop defending without knowing anything.

[dusky surge]

pot calling kettle black

[wintry halo]

im not saying it isnt fixable but it is one of the hardest things too fix because the pounce interaction is weird too implement it also has alot too do with connection and desync which for EVERYONE is different.

[wintry halo]

this patch they slowed down the drain on food and water too, and you are already sub at 40% so you can properly defend yourself and take a few hits, saying they not caring is false but there gotta be a healthy balance between caring what the community wants and there own version. because the community can be very shortsighted at times too

[hallow hinge]

i agree with some point but i will ask u a question

if this game was urs would u rather focus on fix bugs and better game play or would u rather focus on adding new things ?

[stark knoll]

Different devs work on different things. Improving the backend and fixing bugs happens at the same time as content is being made

[torn egret]

Why are you upset that a smaller team of developers are trying to multitask bug fixes, and trying to keep gameplay new and engaging.
It’s not easy.

[hallow hinge]

that's the point i was talking about

i mean why they just first focus on fixing most of bug and for better gameplay

[stark knoll]

Because long stretches with no content upsets the playerbase, and adding new content causes new bugs

They would essentially stop all progress to fix bugs, then add something, and stop all progress again to fix more hugs (and possibly returning bugs)

[hallow hinge]

but this way it feels like new features on broken game

[stark knoll]

Not to most players

[hallow hinge]

i always check reddit or other things many player complain about game bug

[stark knoll]

The devs are quite literally always working on improving the game and fixing bugs

That's why the QA branch updates so often

This has gotten fairly offtopic to this channel at this point

[hallow hinge]

I really wish i can see that but we not looking at the same window

[hallow hinge]

and yeah!

[wintry halo]

they work it all together different people work on different things

you gotta realise that fixing something might break something else especially if your also adding in new stuff, trying too fix pounce has made it more buggy and best believe with new playables it will probably be a mess again even if they fix it, besides pounce there pletra of ways omnis can kill stuff still

[hallow hinge]

btw why omni bites soooo slow ?

[dusky surge]

everything bites slower

except dryo for some reason but frankly dryo getting a buff is based

[hallow hinge]

dilo still in good shape

i have played both

[dusky surge]

dryo's biterate was way too slow in prior updates

[hallow hinge]

dryo need it

but raptor already deal not much damage with bites making it slower not wise choice

[dusky surge]

raptor actually does really good damage for its size

[golden coral]

I think everything got it slowed to match the anim, so now the anim has to play out fully before you can bite again

[dusky surge]

proportionally speaking, its weight to bite ratio is one of the best in the game

[elder nebula]

Yeah, isn't its bite force like 40-50 or smthin like that?

[dusky surge]

65

[hallow hinge]

65

[elder nebula]

Oh! Even better

[tropic horizon]

Kills a cera in 20 bites flat

[hallow hinge]

on paper yeah but raptor already cannot facetank anything

[dusky surge]

And that's body bites only

[dusky surge]

Doesn't need to, its speed and agility allow it to get some really safe bites off

[tropic horizon]

And you don’t even need to land all of those, you’re better off bringing it to low hp then bleeding it because cera takes more bleed at lower health

[hallow hinge]

safe bite ahaha against boar ?

[tropic horizon]

You gotta play really patiently but yeah sometimes hitbox jank just screws you over as omni

[dusky surge]

boar has like a 360 degree death circle, idk why we're bringing up AI lol

[hallow hinge]

guys u talking about in perfect scenario

other player not brainded he will do some smart moves too

[tropic horizon]

I wouldn’t have that much faith in official server randoms

[hallow hinge]

ahh i dont play there sooo much hacking and mixpack

am playing in unofficals soo usually against experienced people

[dusky surge]

i dont think unofficials = experienced

[hallow hinge]

new players dont start on unoffical serv bro lol

i rarely meet with newbies on unofficals much muhc less than offical

[golden coral]

Wouldn't it also depend on the unofficial and the rules there, some rules can make things a lot easier

[hallow hinge]

like which rule ?

[golden coral]

Well, I've heard of rules like having to 3 call before attacking things and other such funny stuff, mostly on "realism" servers, but they still count as unofficials. Could also have rules like safe zones where people just sit and chat, or so I've heard. So yeah, depending on rules, you could be in for an easier, or harder time, than what you get on officials. You could even argue that "no mixpacking" makes it easier (and balanced, so it's a good rule, but still).

[halcyon elk]

The 3 call before attacking is rare, especially on evrima. The only time that occurs is body contesting, which kind of makes sense, posturing and all that.

[hallow hinge]

yeah but they never use it ahah u will understand while u got ambused from 2 carno with charge attack lol

[golden coral]

Be that as it may, my point was that unofficials does not equal better, or more experience, or anything, since it depends entirely on the unofficial and what goes on there

[golden coral]

So? You asked what kind of rules could change up how people play and thus how and what they may or may not gain experience in, you got your answer

[halcyon elk]

True, zooming islander is much like official, only a little more chaotic due to increased people. Antigua (back when more people played) is much more realistic.

[hallow hinge]

in zooming %80 of player dont care rules

[golden coral]

It was a response to this, that unofficials are not neccesarily "more experienced players", because it depends on the unofficial and the rules on it, for what people do and do not.

[halcyon elk]

Zooming doesn't have rules

[golden coral]

You can just as well have newbies on those, or worse, long time players that still lack experience due to the rules

Such as funny no alt on legacy and other interesting stuff

[hallow hinge]

erik i have played in both servers bro believe me there is diffirence

[halcyon elk]

Ngl I like it when people remember that "hey, wait a min, I can RUN AWAY" and proceed to run away and escape.

[hallow hinge]

Petits the best

if u serching for unoffical serv

[halcyon elk]

I honestly preferred Antigua, if only more played it.

[hallow hinge]

never played there

[halcyon elk]

Its pretty good, some restrictions due to realism reasons, but overall it's pretty good.

[golden coral]

There can be, but it's not all that likely, again it depends on the unofficial

Though if you're purely counting entirely new players, then maybe there's a bigger difference, but as we all know, long playtime does not mean a good player

And in the case of new players, with this game, it's far more likely to be a matter of just not knowing how to play due to lack of tutorials and stuff

[hallow hinge]

i like realistic experience i will add it on my list

[hallow hinge]

yeah but more play time more chance to encounter with good player u know what i mean

[halcyon elk]

It unfortunately has a low population, many on it left after gateway. Somewhat understandable, but still.

Though one thing iirc is that for hunts you gotta at least see if there's food you can eat before hunting.

[hallow hinge]

if u looking for better population and good rules with active mods i suggest u petits u can try

[halcyon elk]

Oh I frequent it. Iirc I have a gallimimus on there rn

I prefer galli because I prefer fleeing rather than fighting.

[hallow hinge]

i have a raptor there but after seeing slow bite rate i just kinda mad

[halcyon elk]

I think like 90% of people are waiting with baited breath for da BOI.

[mild cove]

Just read about the new patch and read some rather vague lines, that stamina, growth and hunger have been adjusted... did they improve the Stamina situation?

[halcyon elk]

Stamina has been increased a lot for many, and you can regen while trotting 60% and above.

[hallow hinge]

yeah and better run time

[tropic horizon]

Stam has been adjusted already, it regens quicker and more often than it did upon gateways launch and growth hungry and thirst have all been slower so you take longer to grow but starve and dehydrate slower

[dusky surge]

@hallow hinge they've fixed the kick attack for next patch btw, it was a bug

[hallow hinge]

good to hear that thx

[wintry halo]

everything bites slower, and it shouldnt be a problem for the smaller fellas because you wanna hit and run anyways

bites slower or atleast has a few attacks that have longer cooldowns, like carno alt bites and teno tail slams

[wintry halo]

if you trying too face tank anything your size or bigger as a omni you would be in a for a bad time slower bite rat or faster wouldnt matter at all in those cases, ise your agility!

[wintry halo]

from what i seen the skill gape and experience between players in unofficials are less further apart then in officials but good players are actually really damn good on officials.

[wintry halo]

after the more punishing way of healing and actually needing food people do indeed run much faster away if they catch a mean whooping its great

[hallow hinge]

actually u kinda right but raptors already bite slower than dilo, herrera, cera and now even slower i think unneccessary nerf for raptor

[scarlet onyx]

Other than raptor having more sprinting stamina now I really can't tell a difference in the stamina changes besides a 5-10 second deviation from previous regen and sprint times in the species i tested on my server

[wintry halo]

As i have said before it really doesnt change much your not gonna face tank a dilo or cerato and no herra is gonna try facing you on the ground the only thing it has done is make it harder too bait out attacks if the other creature knows the cooldon of omni but agility has been omni best friend and buting without getting bit or pouncing that hasnt changed at all faster bite or not🤷🏾‍♂️

What i am confused about is kick that got removed though i liked that one alot...so im not sure what happend it was a great tool too attack campers with

They also said they wanted too slow the pace down of hunts and fights this is a great way, it makes you think about if you wanna keep a fight going or back off it forces quick fights with times too size eachother up

[hallow hinge]

idk mate i didn't mean just fg dinos, even against fresh sub or teen dinos now kinda more challenging as a fg raptor i still need to dodge even if they almost same size with me

i have experienced cera, dilo and raptor by now and raptor is worst between them

idk how many sec cooldown but it feels like about 2 sec

[scarlet onyx]

If omni and troodon's crazy long cooldown 'doesn't change anything' then why make the decision. I would agree it makes no difference in a pack fight but hunting small things is RIDICULOUS with that cooldown. You absolutely should be able to facetank a early sub carno or dilo but you can't now. So it's just made pack hunting the same, and solo hunting small stuff unecessarily harder

[hallow hinge]

i tottally agree why i have to hit and run even against juvies ?? that not make sense

[hallow hinge]

or why i have to pounce and waste my %60 stam for just a kid ?

[scarlet onyx]

Lmao, let me pull out my 200 iq dodge and weave tactics against this 30% grown carno. The fact that anyone defends this is eyerolling beyond belief

[hallow hinge]

idk if carno slower or not but raptor doesn't need that nerf it already nerfed a lot and keep buffing dilo

[golden coral]

Apparently the changes were to combat hacks

So I guess it wasn't any species specific, everything got adjustments to solve that potential issue

[scarlet onyx]

Oh isle devs, you sweet summer children

[hallow hinge]

how it gonna solve combat hack a juvi carno gonna come and one shot u again ?

[golden coral]

I have no idea, but apparently the reason the tiny ones could oneshot things like that was due to bite speed or something

Hence the "cooldown" to fix that, I guess

I don't know, I'm telling you what I saw people say, I didn't get any in depth explanation for how it worked

[hallow hinge]

bro u imagining bite rate will not change one shot hacker ?

as u said "one" "shot" soo reducing attack speed will not change it

[golden coral]

Well, they apparently bit multiple times really fast I guess?

So hence, the change would somehow make that particular hack no longer work

[hallow hinge]

soo u saying now they will kill u in 2 bite ?

and btw u cannot know unless u didn't code it

if hack changes attack speed or bite force so there is nothng to defend

[golden coral]

I don't know, why do you expect me to know how it works? As you said, I don't know how it works, but it was mentioned that the cooldowns are to prevent that kind of hack, end of story. I don't really care if you believe it will work, but that was apparently the given reason for it. Hence why it was a general change.

Maybe there is more to the cooldown change than just a cooldown, or maybe it's because it's not related to a cooldown per say but rather having the animation finish, which would explain why it works

If you can't trigger another bite until the anim is done playing, you can't "speed up" the bites in the way they did it I guess

[hallow hinge]

first of all these kind of hacks usually build on damage values not on speed. and also there is still speed hack around slowing all other dinos would't change anything

[golden coral]

I think you might not quite understand the change, if you think it's just speed itself. And sure, maybe they usually do, but apparently this one did not. Look, this isn't something to debate about, apparently, from what I've heard, the change with the cooldown was for a reason like this, end of story.

You can believe it or not, I don't really care, if you want better information then go ask someone who watched the stream and see if they know more

[hallow hinge]

i didn't ask ur opinion u just came here and trying to defend something bad without having any document bro

[golden coral]

No, I explained to someone else what the reason for the change was, according to what I know

It's not a matter of opinion, it's not a matter of defending, it's me telling someone else "so that change, yeah it happened for this reason"

[hallow hinge]

and i am asking if u have any offical document or any prove they protect from hack ?

[golden coral]

And you then starting to ask why and how it would work, to which I don't really know, but I can reason about it

[hallow hinge]

that* not they

[golden coral]

No, only that people said it was mentioned on stream, and from people I at least trust

But it's what we have to go by, and it's at least an explanation, more than "they just changed it because"

@hallow hinge#isle-discussion message

You know what, here, go ask the person that made the stream summary, they might know more

[hallow hinge]

better than nothing

but i dont think this will provide protection from hacks

[golden coral]

In general, no, most likely not. Against that particular one, well hopefully, since that was the point of it apparently

[hallow hinge]

i asked there but none know by now

even if it works there is many other hacks like Speed, flying etc. I am really confused what they trying to do

[wintry halo]

these teens and small dinos this update get up in weight very fast now though a 45% carno already 1000kg

[hallow hinge]

u dont undersant me mate i mean am 450 kg fg raptor and fighting with 400kg something else or 500

2 sec bite cd is too much

[wintry halo]

and how do you know its around your weight? these sizes are very deceptive

[hallow hinge]

u can understand from patterns

especially on cera

[wintry halo]

well if they really are that small pinning them should be no problem then

[hallow hinge]

are we playing 1 vs 1 game ?

pinning use almost %60 sometimes even more stam

[wintry halo]

what do you want me too say🤣 so your thinking it wouldnt make sense your losing against other dinos that are around 400kg and there not alone? ofcourse you might lose then

[wintry halo]

1v1 happen plenty of times....

[hallow hinge]

😄 that is funny

i have played 5 hours today and almost never do 1 vs 1

[wintry halo]

and thats fine thats your experience that doesnt take away 1v1s happen with such a big map...not everyone is at the hotspots ya know

[hallow hinge]

soo u talking about stuational things

am talking about numbers but if it will help i will make u understant ok

[wintry halo]

every encounter in this game is situational

the smallest and biggest details can play factors how a interaction between you and another player goes

[hallow hinge]

excatly! so u cannot expect me pin every time to kill smaller dinos

i might need stam to run after hunt or to defend in case other carni could smell and come to eat

or i might have %50 or less stam

[wintry halo]

well take those intoo consideration next time you might wanna fight something, scavenge or wait till something drinks or sits down

its up too you too make it easier for yourself

[hallow hinge]

bro if i dont have diet or food i have to fight soo i cannot walk all around and trying to scavenge

pls talk with sense

[wintry halo]

the only thing that makes sense is that not every playthrough is gonna go smoothly it can get bad very fast and very violent especially on a small creature like omni. dead is part of the game sometimes its fair and sometimes not deal with it

[hallow hinge]

bro u even dont know what am talking about LOL

u just saying what is in ur mind 😄

[wintry halo]

your not always gonna have adiet or food so you gotta take risks and those can go horrible you gotta accept it

[hallow hinge]

do u need translate ?

[wintry halo]

i dont get it? oh might as well stop discussing it then have a good evening.

[hallow hinge]

we are talking about balance not about fate 😄

[hallow hinge]

u might understand if u would listen but i choose to argue without listening soo we can end discussing

[wintry halo]

what? i never talked about fate your talking about how unfair it is you die because you dont got the stamina or cant kill teen dinos, im only saying its not always gonna go your way deal with it

[hallow hinge]

if u willing to listen i would like to make u understant what am trying to say

[wintry halo]

im listening just not agreeing with you lol

[hallow hinge]

so mate! i totally understand u but there is diffirence between dying cuz of something in game or cuz of something u cannot help like lag or rubberbanging or unbalanced gameplay

so for my experience raptor has slowest bite rate rn ( didn't experienced carno yet )

[wintry halo]

brother everyone dealing with rubberbanding and lag thats nothing species specific it jsut hurts some more then others

[hallow hinge]

if i try to fight with juvi or teen something smaller i will get "unneccesary" damage cuz of unbalanced

[wintry halo]

carno pretty bad too especially the alt

[hallow hinge]

soo at least carno is tank but raptor can be hurt easily

[wintry halo]

lag and rubberbanding aiint no unbalance

[wintry halo]

carno a tank?

[hallow hinge]

yeah ??

do we have better tank as a carni ?

land creatures

[hallow hinge]

i was talking about bite rate there not about lag or others.

[wintry halo]

but you including rubber banding and lag here though in your sentence?

[hallow hinge]

i said these are something need to changed i give them as an example

[wintry halo]

then dont include them in the whole sentence when talking about balance thats confusing. and cerato and deino are much better tanks then carno

[hallow hinge]

u sure u listening bro ?

i said land creatures and cera need body to tank more

see u dont listen! i am saying land creature u saying deino is better tank LOL

[wintry halo]

thats you including that part though i still said cerato and decided too include deino too i have a creature that is a land creature so i ddi listen and added one because i wanted too

[wintry halo]

what do you mean with cerato needs body too tank more?

[hallow hinge]

mate u sure u know the game ??

am really asking

[wintry halo]

i dont get your sentence

thats all

[hallow hinge]

its a simple sentence Cerato need body next to him

[wintry halo]

and no im actually pretty new tbh

[hallow hinge]

dead body

[wintry halo]

i got like a 100 hours or so

[wintry halo]

you need a body always too win against a carno all the time yeah as a cera?

[hallow hinge]

ok i think u dont know cera i will explain

Cera has passive skill when cera has dead fresh body next to him to have damage reduction

[wintry halo]

no need i know cerato im just asking do you really need a body too win against a carno...

[hallow hinge]

but carno has much more hp than cera

so if cera dont have any dead body around cera is worse than carno

are we ok about that ?

[hallow hinge]

btw i have over 600

[wintry halo]

i know but hp a factor ofcourse but not the deciding factor the agility cerato has over carno is second too no especially in a forest

[wintry halo]

i see i was messing with you btw got 1.9k

[hallow hinge]

u have 1.9k and u claim cera is better tank

wow i think i should stop discussing with u 😄

[wintry halo]

when it comes too playstyle and actually how they work? hell yeah cerato is a far superior tank then carno the only thing carno has over all land carnivores is there sheer weight difference so hp, but the way carno is played play isnt like a tank at all. they got the luxury of being able too brute force there way through stuff now but anything closer too there weight they do not play or act like a tank

[wintry halo]

you can do that i wont lose sleep over it👍

[hallow hinge]

Lol we were comparing raptor and carno

i said carno is tanky u even include denio to land creatures Lol

[wintry halo]

sure thing then carno and raptors both arent tanks

[hallow hinge]

😄

[hallow hinge]

ok mate u are the best lol

[wintry halo]

i already addressed that point you can ready it back

[hallow hinge]

love to see u when u try to facetank carno and be gone LOL

[wintry halo]

why is it always about face tanking?

whats so special that that always comes up when it comes too baalncing

balancing*

[hallow hinge]

bro am talking about hp values and bite rate not about ur cera gameplay in forest or something

or u can be better tank with agilty am not talking about this lol

[wintry halo]

but why does face tanking keeps coming up when disccusing stuff with you?

its like a go too word with you

[hallow hinge]

cuz this game has real lag issue even if u play good u get bites

so even if u dont want this game will teleport u on his mouth u will have to tank it even if u dont want

[wintry halo]

and let me just say i do not consider c arno a tank because of how weak they are too bleed omnis if able too pounce are a carno worst nightmare because of how fast they melt so i do not consider them tanks

[hallow hinge]

do u get it now or u need more help ?

[hallow hinge]

am gonna lose my mind LOL

[wintry halo]

dont take it personal brother

its a game

it aiint that deep at all

[hallow hinge]

ahh no not game

u will make me lol

[wintry halo]

see what i mean you keep bring up lag and rubebrbanding

[hallow hinge]

i just cannot understand how u still talking about diffirent things except the point lol

[wintry halo]

as i said dont take it personal im chilling

[wintry halo]

your talking about balancing right?

[hallow hinge]

i said raptor has pretty bad bite rate and u said carno too

right ?

and i said at least carno tank if carno took bite it will not deal much damage

[wintry halo]

yup so i have no clue why you brought up that carno is a tank compared too omni thats all you that the conversation was going that way

[hallow hinge]

i meant cd on attacks carno and omni not same

[wintry halo]

ey listen yo you brought up that carno is a tank compared too omni while we were talking about the bites cooldown expect a comment about it then.

[hallow hinge]

if u let me finish u will understand

[wintry halo]

go ahead

[hallow hinge]

my point is raptor already pretty weak not just about killing

as a fully grown raptor i should't have to dodge juvi attacks

am bigger even if it same size my growth is completed

like baby elephant and lion can be same size but there is no way to elephant win against fg lion

so it can be same size but it still baby or child soo why i have to dodge and put much effort

this is not fair

[elder nebula]

My god, ya'll have been yapping for HOURS

[wintry halo]

I have said it before i see your point and agree omni is weak but for me it really isnt because of the bite

[wintry halo]

that a problem?

[hallow hinge]

waiting 2 sec after every bite is lame

[elder nebula]

Nah, u good slime, I'm just shocked this convo has gone on for so long

[hallow hinge]

especially something weak like raptor

[wintry halo]

Haha im playing i know you joking yeah been going on longer then i thought

[wintry halo]

ey it is what it is we gotta deal with it

[hallow hinge]

imo we should't it need to be changed

getting smacked by babies or trying to dodging their bite feels so bad

[wintry halo]

patch hasnt even been out that long play around with it

see what works and what doesnt

dodging is omnis whole gimmick even against smaller creatures your size or a little smaller

[hallow hinge]

he is my half i should bite his head and rip it off

[wintry halo]

brother just pin the damn creature you wanna lose health and bleed trying too face tank them but whine about losing stamina make it make sense

[hallow hinge]

it just feels like wasting my stam for nothng

[wintry halo]

😂 but your health aiint important or bleed?

i see now we done brother im getting it now goodnight

[hallow hinge]

and as i said 1 vs 1 is rare 2 juvies will make my pounce usless

[hallow hinge]

we were already done mate since u include deino as a land creature soo have a good night

[golden coral]

Maybe omni(?) isn't quite the playable for you if you don't feel like playing it with it's mechanics and all. The pin is well, the "small target one shot" mechanic, so use it as such. You pin a dryo, beipi, and other juvies

[hallow hinge]

thats the point mate

[golden coral]

Not sure why you're arguing that you should bite things when you don't need to, and if the target is big enough to pounce, well, it's unlikely that juvie is going to be big enough to survive a full pounce anyway, or close to it, unless it's way bigger

[hallow hinge]

thats the point am trying to say I can kill everything smaller than me with pounce

[golden coral]

So what's the issue then?

[hallow hinge]

but that's not the care

we are playing online game and u cannot know when u gonna need stam or not

wasting stam about everything will be lethal at the end

like i hunt something my size without getting hit but chased by something bigger and died cuz of stam

in that case taking a bit damage but saving stam can save life

but bite slower and waiting 2 sec will make it harder and u will get unneccessary hit

[golden coral]

Which would be why you only use stam when you need it, and have to make the choice of when and how to use your stam

[hallow hinge]

so then why other dinos dont need to do that choice ?

[golden coral]

I'm not sure I see an issue, you can kill quickly with pin, at the cost of stam, or you can do it via bites, at less stam cost but more risk to your health and potentially greater risk of interruption if something hears the fight and all that

They do? Every playable need to mind their stamina these days

For travel, for fighting, and so on

[hallow hinge]

its easy to manage stam for others

i usualy play dilo too, it is like not hard as raptor

[golden coral]

Being less difficult does not mean there is no stamina management, all playables have to mind themselves, to more or less degree

I'm not sure what you're arguing here, omni has a one shot pin mechanic for small targets, at the cost of some stam. Or you can choose to not use that, going for bites and take the risks that comes with that instead

[hallow hinge]

mate while am playing dilo whenever i see something about my size or even slightly bigger it's like free meal

[golden coral]

I'd argue that depends on what you're up against, and how well they know how to defend, though the shadow clones are maybe not perfectly tuned just yet

But that's not related to if you need to use stam or not, or your complaint that omni uses stam for a one shot pin mechanic, which is a fair trade

[hallow hinge]

am saying making bites slower is unneccessary simple

making it harder and painful to play

my discussion is raptor already weak after pounce changes with lags and desync and bugs why making it even harder

i hope u understand what i am trying to say !

[golden coral]

I mean, yes, I get it. But... the bite change, as we discussed earlier, was not related to balance, or specific to omni or any other playable. It wasn't done to make any playable worse off, and multiple playables feel off after the change.

[sleek sierra]

Damn! Y'all are prolific in this thread today. 😆

[hallow hinge]

ok i get it but somehow they must fix this somehow

[golden coral]

Does it make going for bites a bit harder, sure, but that's not really an argument for if you should use bites in a given situation or not, or use your mechanic instead

[golden coral]

Maybe, or maybe they think it works well enough

[hallow hinge]

like if they will nerf like that they could give some small buff like +5 bite damage to equalize it

cuz this effects not only pvp even boar can hit u 2 times before u kill it and flying birds being more annoying cuz u cannot kill fast enough and kick removed for a reason or bug and killing dodge master deer is even harder.

at the end they will not deal much damage or somthing but it deal damage to gameplay and game pleasure.

[golden coral]

Well, to you it does at least, not sure how other players feel

As for the kick, I think it was disabled because they're working on it, otherwise it's likely a bug. Considering they went through the trouble of making that and the upwards bite in the first place there's no reason to think they'd just remove it again.

[stark knoll]

Filipe said it's disabled right now because it's not done

[odd pebble]

In the latest dondi stream he addressed the cooldown issue. He said, the way hackers were using the damage hacks were applying like 100 attacks at once. The cooldown was added to counter that

I hate the cooldowns as much as the next person, but if its the only way to keep baby ceras from 1 shotting my fg teno? I'll take it

[keen plover]

Couldn't they just speed up the animations then

Some animations are way quicker than others?

[scarlet onyx]

Then why gib omni/troos cooldown harder than all the other playables. dilo is literally just as fast as it was before

[keen plover]

Omni bite animation in particular is longer than dilos

[odd pebble]

That i have no clue. Im just putting what i saw on th stream here

[frail bobcat]

Wouldnt they just be able to put the cooldowns to a rate that lines up with the old attacks, but because there is a cooldown inbetween, hackers cant stack those attacks?

[odd pebble]

That would be an interesting solution ngl. Try putting that in a feedback post

[warm adder]

hello

[hallow hinge]

yeah i mean when i play dilo i barely feel if it slowed or not almost same attack speed just a lil bit slower

soo it makes me think like if cera and dilo can bite still fast why others got huge speed nerf ?

[dusky surge]

i believe its animation-based

[hallow hinge]

bro LOL i just have go and compare bite rate between dilo and raptor raptor bite cd is like 1.9 almost 2 sec and dilo can bite 3,5 times (animation starts but not bitting ) in 2 sec

[dusky surge]

raptor has a much longer bite animation

[hallow hinge]

no metter what cause this mate 4x better attack speed is soo much

[dusky surge]

honestly it could probably do with a reduction to be aligned with other animations from newer animals

[hallow hinge]

and imo not about animation cuz when i spam my bite as a raptor it just waits like without doing anything without any animation

[dusky surge]

its because the animation likely has dead frames

too much endlag on it

[hallow hinge]

hmm alt bite same too mate idk

[dusky surge]

older animals seem to share this issue

[hallow hinge]

cera dont have that issue ( i mean like like raptor )

i didnt know carno

[dusky surge]

cera is a newer animal

[hallow hinge]

still pretty old it comes from spiro and i wonder why they publish new patches with bunch ofnew bug

[dusky surge]

I don't think its a bug tho

[hallow hinge]

why not just change the animation and make something more simple

[dusky surge]

More of a discrepency in animations

[hallow hinge]

adding new bite animation is not that big deal

idk if u ever play raptor after patch but even ripping organs takes toooo long

[hollow canyon]

That doesn't sound right... that'd mean they've sped up Dilo bite by a lot

Ugh I really don't want to download the game to test the bite rates of everything again.

Why was any of this even getting touched?

[dusky surge]

actively stopped hackers

the cooldown exists to basically stop the one-tap juvis

[junior harness]

Hopefully a temporary solution while they figure out something more permanent to stop hackers without affecting combat too much. Though I also haven't played for a bit, a 1 second cooldown in bite attacks for quicker and smaller dinos sounds kinda... weird, to say the least. Not unplayably so, just a bit odd when they felt fine before

[halcyon elk]

Maybe reduce it to 0.5?

[junior harness]

I could see that potentially working! I'm honestly a bit surprised there was never a cooldown in the first place, that it was just tied to animation (at least I'm pretty sure?). Feel like it should be something that varies from species to species.

[halcyon elk]

True, tho tbh its understandable why they added it.

[tropic horizon]

It’s more of an annoyance to me (except on cera this cooldown kinda gimps it)

Hopefully they can figure out a new solution to it

I think that’s also why the “alt bite cooldown” was added because before you could get a macro on your mouse and alt bite faster than anything in the game

[junior harness]

I mean, the alt bite cooldown makes sense in a way at least - that's a fairly strong attack that would probably require a bit of windup time. Though now I'm hoping they're able to figure out how to stop speedhacks, since I've been seen that run rampantly in the officials lately in videos

[tropic horizon]

The thing is the cooldown doesn’t really kick in by alt biting too much rather clicking too fast which makes sense as it’s how people were able to spam it with a macro in the first place, though it is annoying to have your attacks fail because you click to quickly

[tropic horizon]

On speed hacks yeah I hope they’re sorted out soon

[hollow canyon]

What kind of backward way of dealing with hackers is that?

[dusky surge]

its not backwards if it works

[hollow canyon]

It messes the whole game up

And I dont see how the cd stops hackers

[dusky surge]

i haven't really felt that way in my time playing

[hollow canyon]

In literally any way

[halcyon elk]

Basically they were able to abuse the no cool down to have like 100 bites in a single hit.

[dusky surge]

basically without the hard-coded cooldowns, people can literally just spam a billion attack in one seconds and nuke anything in its path

[hollow canyon]

Cool, that's so much of a difference compared to them just oneshotting you because of the damage

[halcyon elk]

Thats...how they got the damage hack in the first place?

[dusky surge]

yep, that's literally how the damage hack worked

[halcyon elk]

It wasn't them ramping up the damage for the specific dinosaur, it was just spamming the bite 100 times or more in less than a second.

[dusky surge]

they can't actually modify the damage client-side, it was being able to bypass the animation lock on bites to nuke stuff

[hallow hinge]

i have tried all carnis on admin server cera and dilo still same carno and raptor unplayable

[hallow hinge]

not 1 sec bro almost 2 sec LOL