balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

legit called it

[distant torrent]

LOL

[dusky surge]

my man fought a pachy as a dilo and wondered what happened

[tropic horizon]

“It’s a guaranteed death for dilos” mfw when dilo can face tank pachy

[dusky surge]

nuh uh

ur a pachy apologiser

[tropic horizon]

Ah right I main the animal I can’t give my opinions cause I’m Le biased herbi main

[dusky surge]

tbf, pachy can absolutely deck a dilo if it gets a head or leg fracture (but that's not a bad thing)

[tropic horizon]

It SHOULD beat a dilo and have the favor in the matchup given how fragile Dilo is supposed to be

[dusky surge]

i adore the sheer bullying that happens with a leg fractured dilo vs an enraged pachy

tries to run, gets knocked down, gets back up, repeat

its great

honestly, i've been seeing an explosion in pachy players as of late

and i can only assume this due to the fact that dilo is so popular, and pachy can just be cruel to them

[tropic horizon]

Yeah pachy practically counters dilo atm

[dusky surge]

(as it should)

[tropic horizon]

Same with Omni if you’re smart with it

[dusky surge]

as i said before, people saying omni is useless are literally coping with their animal not being God

because current omni? feels GREAT

take it from the receiving end of a pack of omnis (not even a full pack), they are SCARY

[tropic horizon]

My only complaints with Omni are just general pounce jank like the bug that places you on the back of a Dino while being unable to dismount meaning you just die

[dusky surge]

thats fair

again, the only animal i legitimately believe is outright garbage is beipi

beipi is just horrible atm for a plethora of reasons

only animal punished for reaching 100% grown

[tropic horizon]

For me the it’s also troodon to some extent cause of pounce jank (and its microscopic size) put together

If any of the two pouncers should’ve kept the front and back pounce it should’ve been troodon

It really could use it more than Omni could given how hard it is to land its pounce

[dusky surge]

i dont think troodon is trash because i've watched them shred dilo

but it's certainly not great atm

[sturdy sundial]

Any update on latest patch did it fix anything?

[shadow vortex]

Nah

AI is abundant now, but that's kinda immersion breaking tbh because food literally spawns under your feet

[heady bobcat]

turn carno’s charge back to before

[distant torrent]

no. absolutely not

[tropic horizon]

no

[sharp patrol]

Troodons definitely trash atm as it's bite is near worthless, so it has to go for pounce which is not only difficult as hell to hit with current pounce, but a buggy mess when you do hit, not only that but troodons entire play style is stage 3 then spam pounce. Before troodons weakness was the fact everything basically one shots it, which was balanced with its quick agility and hard to spot Movment, as well as its pounce letting it get a hit and wait till an opportune moment to escape. Troodon is easily the worst carnivore outside of maybe ptera in the game, and it's even probably a contender for worst playable animal. You would have better luck selecting Omni and playing for 30 minutes than picking troodon and getting to adult

Omni atleast has one of the best bf to weight ratios in game

[stark knoll]

@exotic estuary They already are

[light crescent]

cera's are supposed to be the cleanup crew but they get nothing from boar, goat, dilo, or herra

[hollow canyon]

I was actually predicting that Pachys would evaporate Cerato before the latter even came out.

Does Ceratosaurus get stunned by Pachy's ram?

[distant torrent]

cera does not get stunned in any way shape or form by pachy

it’s too big

[hollow canyon]

then that's such a major skill issue that I'm flabergasted

leave the part about not using the terrain

how do you even lose that fight? Cerato could just trade one for one and win that fight

like literally just lmb pachy that's running at you

that's eat

[distant torrent]

he took baits like mad

[hollow canyon]

you've outtraded it

bizarre... truly bizarre

[sharp patrol]

Isn't pachy faster

[dusky surge]

yes, not by much

[golden coral]

@iron igloo Raptors having to aim their pounce adds skill to the playable, so reverting it would mean they'd have to find some other way to make pounce require ability from the user. Tap pouncing was removed because the concept of omni is that they stay on and do bleed, rather than the get on/get off style troodon has with raw damage instead. It's a way to distinguish between the pouncers.

Also most of what you mentioned there, are not solo hunts, but 3+ omnis at the least. Try galli or dryo, herrera or pachy when you're on your own. I'm not quite sure what you're asking for "duels", unless you mean just between two omnis? If it's a duel, the changes would be good, since now it's not just "pounce first" and autowin, and if it's an actual hunt or otherwise, get an ambush in on your opponent.

I don't think the change had anything to do with if you can hit an omni or even troodon in the air, because aside from troodon being very squishy, an omni could tank that hit if it wasn't a stego and it'd be a decent trade, especially with tap pouncing (that you now have kicks for instead, that does decent bleed apparently). Also you can have multiple omnis and troodons on most targets, even a pachy can have two omnis on it I'm pretty sure.

[dusky surge]

omni is perfectly viable, i cannot understand this uproar. Playing as and against it has proven that to me

yes, you're punished a lot for facepouncing carnos, ceras and dilos but that's not particularly... wrong?

the little pounce kick actually does crazy good bleed damage, it's not even that bad

[nova otter]

When you wanna play so bad but everything is horrible

[dusky surge]

how is everything horrible lol

[iron igloo]

There is already skill in pounce that is is a skill shot you have to hit the target with a starigh line moving skill, why then is there no deflect for Pachy, Carno, or Teno? all had the same skill cieling, but the smallest of the group was pulled out because of complainers that wanted no skill input, and help from the devs

There are solos or even those who are playing when their friends are not on so no dont balance around groups, the game doesnt show casual players how to group. jsut the hardcore ones. you misunderstand like on servers like Isla Antiga you must announce your hunt with a call, there is no chance to "ambush" on those servers, so you broke the entire way they interact in that community and raptors wont be used

yes but in a max group size (8 btw) what are the other 6 to do? it's unrealistic, it's boring, and it's just a way to artificially slow down the game as they have been doing

[iron igloo]

if you cant understand the uproar, because it was a bad decision and it's their flagship dino on the front of the game, then i cant help you

[dusky surge]

you know that raptor used to get deflected if it pounced the head or tail, except instead of doing a powerful kick, it just got stuck on the floor for 3 whole seconds in a recovery animation, and it was still viable

raptor is absolutely still viable, it just isn't baby brain anymore

[iron igloo]

Never seen a raptor pounce for the face to gouge eyes or rip a Jugular? what should be punished for natural animal behavior?

[dusky surge]

you're talking about a raptor as if it were a big cat lol

[hollow canyon]

that sounds like a server issue or a bunch of player-specific issues not issues with the playable

[dusky surge]

a raptor would absolutely fall off

[iron igloo]

that' s just wrong how is a rapto viable against a stego or a carno after changes. ig there's no reasoning with you. you've clearly been killed to many times by them an raged to see reason

[hollow canyon]

I think that the first thing that would happen to a raptor that would pounce something like Cerato's or Carno's face would be that it would literally get snapped by the jaws and go for a bit of a ride in the jaws of that animal

[dusky surge]

if they can kill me they're not unviable are they

but i've only been killed once, it was a good fair fight, and proved to me that raptor is still vaible

[hollow canyon]

it would quite literally get disemboweled for that

[dusky surge]

and then i played raptor and experienced several winning fights, proving to me further that its still viable

[nova otter]

unbalancing, aquatic ai being extinct. Dilo venom broke with buggy clones, Herrera is useless, cera damn near impossible to get around with, pounce being broke/buggy, troo is useless, pt, bepi, deino damn near unplayable, teno being damn near unkillable one on one if they got a brain.

[dusky surge]

believe it or not, my favourite animal in this entire game to play for the longest time was raptor

i've actually been starting to enjoy it again as of late

[nova otter]

Since yall are talkin omni whatcha think of this take? #balance-feedback message

[dusky surge]

feels like the raptor i enjoyed all that time ago rather than the facepouncing nobrain solo hunter king it was for too long

[hollow canyon]

I think that the sentence "Looking at Omni almost destroys its ability to pounce" means that it's precisely how it should be

[dusky surge]

i think the raptor uproar is less a fault of raptor and more a fault of dilo being everywhere and so broken

a less overtuned dilo would be easier for raptor to fight, and provide yet another good matchup for raptor

[nova otter]

eh, i have hit the sides of tenos and carnos just for it to do the kick and get myself bit when trying to get away

[hollow canyon]

that sounds like a bug

and it definitely needs to get fixed

have you reported that bug?

[nova otter]

its due to how they have the pounce collision and desync.

so they would need to fix the desync aswell as the fact that if you enter in a pounce and hit the flank at an odd angle it does the kick instead

[hollow canyon]

have you reported the bug?

because if not then this isn't an issue as far as the devs know

[nova otter]

been reporting the desync for ever and the collision issue has been.

[hollow canyon]

because they don't even know it exists

[hollow canyon]

no, I'm asking you if you have made a bug report about it for the QA?

[dusky surge]

desync is the nature of online games with a ping number

[iron igloo]

https://youtu.be/7vRd9UNXe1c?t=618 if you can find original video it's clear raptors pounced inthe fron and back of prey all the time

[hollow canyon]

wat?

[dusky surge]

this dude literally is making fun of how inaccurate this show is tho lol

[hollow canyon]

I actually tried to watch that and I'm confused as to the point you're trying to get across with this video

[dusky surge]

you're using a video of someone mocking the inaccuracies of the media to justify raptor doing something it probably couldn't do

[hollow canyon]

oh it could pounce on something's face

it would just die though

[nova otter]

then they shouldn't have such a punishing mechanic that is almost luck based bc of desync. been screwed over so many times, I have around 20-40 ping when i play too

[golden coral]

Disagree, pounce was mindlessly easy to use with magnet pounce. Maybe you struggled more, but I never did. Also no, out of those, only teno had real skill requirements. Pachy maybe some, caarno not so much. The only playable that has required any noticable amount of skill has been teno, everyone else has been more or less easy.

You're right, we don't balance around groups. Solo and pair omnis are perfectly viable, if they choose proper prey, which are dryo/galli/pachy and herrera/dilo and juvies/subs of the larger species and so on. Not fully adult tenos/carnos or bigger stuff. I do agree the game is lacking in tutorials and explanations on how mechanics work, but that's not a balance issue.

Oh and, well, rule servers are rule servers. I play on officials, so I can't speak for how it's on that server, but if you have to play like that, I think that's an issue with the server, and not the playable. If you have to announce your hunt with a call, then you kind of only have yourself to blame for playing on a server with rules that literally negate part of a proper hunt.

[iron igloo]

yeah a YTer taking on a scientist, and you're gonna take the content creators side, Science changes as you discover stuff, but clearly you can see what i mean instead of putting on the captain obvious cape

[hollow canyon]

mate... a scientist hasn't made that documentary

a scientist was advising on it

what ended up IN the documentary itself was down to the producers

[dusky surge]

Producers pick what looks cool a lot of the time, not what's real

[nova otter]

I think the face kicks should do normal bite damage but extra bleed

[hollow canyon]

raptors wouldn't be kicking either

[dusky surge]

Hence the "herbis are weak garbage stupid idiot animals that are meat for the great carnivores" we see in many of these bad docs

[hollow canyon]

not when they RPRed something

[nova otter]

well thats the animation for it

[dusky surge]

the kick does do that

it does insane bleed and around as much damage as a bite

[nova otter]

Im pretty sure its the same as a normal bite right now

[hollow canyon]

what I'm saying is that if someone wants to go on about what raptors would or wouldn't do then we have to start off with the fact that they couldn't pounce on something and start kicking it

they were using those sickle-claws to stay on that thing

and their arms to balance themselves while RPRing that prey item

[nova otter]

does it? have yet to notice a difference. been having better luch just biting stuff to death. killed 7 carnos in a valley the other day via biting

[golden coral]

Normal bite of omni does okay bleed I think

And it'd be more if you get a headshot due to multiplier so, kick should work for that

[nova otter]

the animation for jumping on something face is a kick, thats what i was trying to say

[hollow canyon]

I know, I I realised that's what you were getting at but only later

[golden coral]

@iron iglooConsidering not a single one of our critters is entirely realistic, and omni is literally fictional (JP raptor), I don't really know what referring to a documentary would do?

[dusky surge]

that too, raptor... doesn't need to pounce. Like in most fights it can just not pounce and win, because its bite does so much damage and it has so much stam, speed and agility that it can keep biting, biting and biting as the prey can't react

bating any alt-bite will most of the time open the prey up to a bite. You can kill ceratos this way

[hollow canyon]

referring to a documentary as bad as that one would probably be a way of asking for it to be less realistic

[dusky surge]

im sick of raptor constantly being given a decent balance state and then this community requests it gets returned to godhood yet again

[nova otter]

yeah and thats an issue since it makes pounce useless. Its just better to bite instead of using its main mechanic that its based around. pouncing is so hard to pull of with such a little reward and high risk

nerf its bites and alt bites and rework pounce

[dusky surge]

pounce isnt useless, that's not what im saying, the bleed is absolutely terrifying, but you don't need to use it

i'm saying raptor is versatile and can use multiple options for multiple situations

nerfing bite and buffing pounce just makes it back to another RMB junky animal that has no other way of fighting besides pressing right click

raptor's bite is part of its learning curve, as it's riskier, harder to do and does less bleed, but can be usable in specific situations, that's a good thing that makes raptor more engaging

[nova otter]

problem is with pounce is that it tends to go better when you dont use it. bc you pounce and your stam either disappears or got get put into a stun by a tree with guaranteed death, or you get faced to a cliff. For all of this you get the same amount of bleed that you could get in a few quick bites since you cant stay on long enough to do much.

[iron igloo]

it was a visual representation because some bozo said they would get gutted? if they pounced from the front or rear?

but convo in this communty is just braindead so again my feedback was for the devs

Just a ton of gatekeeping

[golden coral]

Honestly it would be nice if the "main mechanic" wasn't the be all/end all for the playables, for both omni and the others. So not neccesarily sure that it's bad, pounce is still very lethal when you can use it, and with the pounce to pin in the future, it'll be even more so.

[iron igloo]

i'm litterally only talking to people who spam ❌ on my and any other feedback

[golden coral]

Ah. Well, I'd say it dependes, some playables probably would retaliate, others might not. Just like some would be large enough to hang on to, while others would not as well. Though I'd imagine the things large enough to hold on to, would also be able to retaliate quite well.

[golden coral]

Isn't the entire point of discussion to well, discuss. And if we all agreed, then there'd be nothing to say after all.

[iron igloo]

True but the 3 i'm getting pings from are the ones that disagree, the ones who agree with checkmark and move on it's the loud minority that's the problem

silent majority is a thing

[golden coral]

It is, but you shouldn't assume you're part of it, any more than you should assume anyone against you is just the loud minority. Not to mention that majority or minority does not mean being correct about something.

Technically you could probably argue that any feedback is the loud minority, since the silent majority would not make a feedbck at all since they'd be happy as it is

[iron igloo]

I gave them a visual representation of what i mean by they pounced the prety omnidirectionally, and they deflected the conversation it's just intelectually dishonest, so i usually just stop, becuase it's not worth my time

it's a bad faith conversation at that point

[nova otter]

that would be all good if omnis side pounce was sat up to be a support mechanic as it takes the enemy being incopetent to be able to do large amounts of bleed. Ik the first thing I do when I get pounced is buck and book it to the nearest cliff or tree. killed 5 fg omnis on a 60% teno using one of those tiny palm trees, was nuts. And they couldn't bite me since I was swinging my tail around and have a very fast reaction time.

[golden coral]

Fair. My main issue with the "pounce from any direction" has been that the omni just ends up on the flank safely. There's no more risk to pouncing the front or tail, because you just get teleported to the flank anyway. If every side had it's own kind of pounce with it's own risks, then it might work better.

[nova otter]

this right here is my full take on it #balance-feedback message

[golden coral]

I'd be happy if terrain was made less of a hard counter personally, but people seem to be happy with "just drink at shallow spots" and "just use trees" and all that

[shadow vortex]

I’m not the person that was asked, but that’s my take lol. Cuz everything isn’t working as intended. Migrations are broken (no food outside, and once I even hadn’t any food inside lol as a herbi), half of game settings don’t work, AI just made life too easy for carnis (imho. It literally spawns under your feet and takes away amusing gameplay), pounce and other bugs (which have only become more numerous [mostly related to desync probs but still]) are noticeably annoying

[golden coral]

Though to be fair, those omnis were not good if you handled them like that and they somehow couldn't get around, if you were that "tiny" and they were that many

[iron igloo]

Yes but this is from the devs that have no snakes because they dont want to animate it, it's a simple fix if you add the animation to properly cling or graple the face or tail. they just choose not to using that animation shortcut in the argument is just not really the court i'm even arguing on, you're in completely different ball game, i'm asking for realism, and compatability with the group size and hoping they will do i t

[golden coral]

No surprise really, omnis are rarely good, what you get when the playable doesn't require much to use. Meanwhile, teno requires a lot, so if you're good at teno, you're quite lethal

[iron igloo]

Well bleeding out is one of the most lethal things to living organics.

[nova otter]

eh, may be the fact i have about 200 hours on teno

[iron igloo]

its fast and not much you can do to prevent if you're not civilized and inteligent

[golden coral]

I don't think it's just "don't want to animate a snake", from what I know, animating snakes are very difficult to do, much less to do good. So that's probably a factor to be honest. But sure, they could do, but might not because they don't see a need.

[golden coral]

Less the amount of hours, more the amount of fights and practice you've gotten

But teno, if you know what you're doing, is terrifying to go up against. Meanwhile, a bad teno is close to fodder

[iron igloo]

do you know how many of just the population of Florida, snakes are a common house hold pet. no need?

again it's an oversight

[golden coral]

Not sure how that is relevant at all to what I said to be honest?

[iron igloo]

your playerbase has favorite animals and dinos similar to them, they would want to play them, other tames like ark and POT have a roster that dwarfs The isle, and i think they should diversify

[golden coral]

Anyway, it doesn't really relate to the talk about omni anyway. I'm not inherently opposed to face/rear pounces, if they are their own thing, and have their own risks and disadvantages, since I believe that omni should be a flank attacker, and thus be best when it's aiming for and hanging onto the targets flanks.

[iron igloo]

and work on making the one they have more flexible rather than nerfing them into the dirt

[golden coral]

But if they don't want to make those their own pounces, then removing face/rear pounces is the better option, since now omnis have to properly aim, ambush, and use tricks and all to take on their target, as they should.

And nothing about the change has made it impossible to ambush a smaller target solo and kill it via pin, or pounce + bites.

[golden coral]

The roster for the Isle is already at 60+ animals I believe

I don't think you can make an argument that they need more playables honestly

[iron igloo]

Yeah tricks when the new dino that is bigger is faster and more agile than the raptor? it's only edge is no longer viable

[nova otter]

problem is no one plays smaller dinos. and for the few who do your are very unlikely to run into

[iron igloo]

Envirma

[golden coral]

Especially not since people like to find others of their kind to play with, which with 100-150 players on a server, and 60 playable choices, might be difficult

[stark knoll]

The planned roster for evrima is about 64 species

[golden coral]

Which one in particular?

[golden coral]

I know, I rarely find other dryos

[iron igloo]

Current is what matters i would say here, as the change has been made at current roster size

[golden coral]

But that's more so an issue with why people don't want to play the smaller critters and all

[iron igloo]

Dilo speed is faster currently

[golden coral]

But the roster argument related to the snake? Not sure how that is current?

[nova otter]

I would play herrera if it wasn't nerfed into the ground. their stun is 3 seconds longer than their preys

its horrible, with that and a kit that fits no role. Not a juvi hunter, secondary ambusher, or primary ambusher

[golden coral]

Like, what does this have to do with omni? Or the fact that the playerbase have favourite animals. That's not related to balance or omni, or even current roster.

[iron igloo]

it was to the animation teleportation you mentioned, that i replied to, the animation should jsut show it jumping and cling to head and tail as the hit box showed, not now just deflect

[golden coral]

So you need to ambush it, it bleeds quite well if you get a pounce off. Or you can attempt to out turn and out manuever it and go for bites, people have done that too.

[iron igloo]

you just seem lost, i'll just leave you to it

i'm not going to sit on a hamster wheel

gl good talk

[golden coral]

Fair enough

[nova otter]

xD

[golden coral]

Back to omni then. Omni is still viable, both solo and in packs, and reverting things is rarely a good idea. On top of that, currently there seems to be all kinds of issues and broken stuff, as well as new playables, one of which is overtuned and thus quite popular. So as it stands, there's no real reason to be overly concerned, there are playables that are worse off, both when it comes to viability, and when it comes to fun and good design.

[dusky surge]

i almost can guarantee you it will be overbuffed regardless, as it always is

because omni cannot stay balanced forever

[nova otter]

honestly I dont wanna see it reverted. #balance-feedback message just think it should be more kit centered, especially as we get larger dinos that will require pounce

hell I would be fine with omni being unviable solo against anything above its weight class since its suppose to be a pack hunter, just wanna see more done with it

[golden coral]

Going to have a look at that. Gimme a moment.

[nova otter]

gonna go shower, ill read through chat in 5-10 mins

[golden coral]

Let's see then. I agree on the idea that the longer you hold on, the more damage or bleed you should do. That, combined with powerful but draining bucking would be interesting. Since it could mean that omnis approach would be to use their agility and bites to bait out attacks and have the target waste their stamina, and use pounce more as a finisher when the target is exhausted and either cant buck, or maybe if the bucking would be less effective the less stam the target has, allowing for longer pounces.

Not as sure on the rear pouncing, much less it blocking side pounces. It seems like it'd be easier to get flank pounces if you're limited because something is already hanging on to you. And while rear or face pounces could work, they should have their own risks and be far less good to go for overall. Could just make it so things that has attacks can use them. So pounce at your own risk on those areas. But that would require the whole new anim thing and all.

Agreed on terrain being made less of a hard counter. I'd even say that if we keep the current pounce, make it so an omni and troodon can remain latched even if the target is rubbing up against terrain, unless the target is running. In which case the raptor should get knocked off and have the same punishment as if it's out of stam, because if you can't notice the target starting to run and get off, that's kind of on you. Obviously the target should have to get up to full speed for the knock off to work.

I'd be fine with the current front/rear kick getting better "kickback" if they also got a bit of a damage/bleed nerf, so they'd be more of a distraction and a "keep bleed going" rather than actually useful for adding damage and bleed.

[nova otter]

back

[nova otter]

yee the rear pounce idea was more to make the omni un-nockable aswell as useable when enemies like carno or dilo are fleeing.

so while it runs the omni can have an easier time latching and prevent it from running away. would be surprising how easy it is to loose fast prey. especially in foliage

[golden coral]

Considering you do slow targets down with sufficient amount of omnis on it, that's kind of already a thing, so not sure it needs more. Also it seems odd you'd somehow catch up to something running away in a pounce, not sure that makes much sense.

Dilo and carno are faster, so they'd be out of reach pretty quickly, carno especially

[nova otter]

if you catch them accelerating you can accelerate faster and clip that box with a pounce. use to do it before they changed it around.

gotta be paying a lot of attention tho so its very situational

[golden coral]

Fair, but then you could maybe get up on the side if you're quick enough about it as well. So not sure on that one, but overall, not terrible ideas!

[nova otter]

yeye, ty!

just gotta get a QA to see my herrera ideas

[hallow hinge]

if u die against raptor in this patch u must be so bad i have at least 10 times die cuz of pounce bug and lag am raptor main but everyday i kill 3 raptor as a snack ahah once they try to pounce just do alt bite they will stop in front of u and u will get free bite so if someone complain about dying raptors especially less then 3 dont get me wrong but u guys so bad

[dusky surge]

those are horrible raptors if they do that

[hallow hinge]

their moves so obvious bro

i even can understand when they fake or when they try to jump

[dusky surge]

if a raptor is that obvious, it's terrible lol

[hallow hinge]

am raptor main i know what they do

[iron igloo]

Thank you for the honest feedback

[dusky surge]

its only honest if it agrees with you lol

[hallow hinge]

a small tip if u keep chasing them without stopping they cannot bite or jump u

when they try to move ur side just run forward and take position again

simple as that

[dusky surge]

if a raptor can't take advantage of an extremely aggressive opponent, that's a bad raptor

[iron igloo]

Yeah nothing wrong with bad balance changes

[hallow hinge]

bro am open if someone wanna do 1 vs 1 as a raptor they can come

i just need one tree or wall

[dusky surge]

wall strat has been in since raptor was added lol, acting as if this update added it

[iron igloo]

Is that a bad game mechanic or bad game desigh?

[dusky surge]

neither

[hallow hinge]

mr frog what are u talking about bro ?

[iron igloo]

he's on copium i stopped it's not logical or good faith arguments

[hallow hinge]

i guess u wopped many times from raptors and mad 😄

[iron igloo]

just trolling

[dusky surge]

i got killed by an extremely competent raptor pack, joined them, and killed far more things

i enjoyed the fight, i'm not mad at the raptors lol, they were impressive

[hallow hinge]

are u talking about raptor pack or solo ?

there is diffirence

[dusky surge]

pack

solo should be hunting smaller animals

[hallow hinge]

4 or more raptor can be good against solo dinos

am talking about 1 vs 1 potential

[dusky surge]

raptor shouldn't 1v1 anything above dilo

[hallow hinge]

bro this is game never fair numbers there

like there is 5 carno pack while i cannot find any raptor for my pack

[dusky surge]

The 1v1 raptor meta was a plague

Raptors should not see a tenonto solo and go "yea i'd win"

[hallow hinge]

it must be skill issue not should be impossible

[dusky surge]

it isn't impossible atm lol

[hallow hinge]

cuz every other dinos can do

[dusky surge]

a raptor can solo hunt a cerato still

[hallow hinge]

except trodon

[dusky surge]

dryo? hypsi? beipi?

[hallow hinge]

dryo is good rn btw

[dusky surge]

it is!

[hallow hinge]

hypsi and beipi kinda chill dinos

like ptera

[iron igloo]

ok i'll play you Full Cerato and we can post the video

[dusky surge]

are you australian?

because im not dealing with 200 ping

[iron igloo]

oh ok backpedal

[dusky surge]

"backpedal"

i dont like high ping

[golden coral]

Look, if an omni is being predictable, that's a bad player. It has nothing to do with the playable, or any balance changes. Also what would that vid even prove, that a solo omni can't take on a solo cerato?

Because yeah, no, a solo omni should not take on anything bigger than a galli or pachy or dilo

[dusky surge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM14SHwtxtA

watch this video if you want

[iron igloo]

a good raptor should win that or they are bad

[hallow hinge]

bro u just talking about killing killing and killing

raptor can be outstamed easyly

[iron igloo]

This i sa bait video, the cera is auto spamming in the wrong direction

[hallow hinge]

dilo bites 2 time and u cannot fight or also cannot run

am talking about fight back

if i cannot take down i should be able to run or escape

[golden coral]

It's a little odd that omni and hopefully others being brought up to teno levels of requiring skill, stamina management, teamwork, smarts and planning is so disapproved of. Isn't it a good thing that the other playables also require some level of skill? And dilo, or well, dilo venom, is both a little overtuned and a bit buggy. But omni is more agile and should be able to evade and escape a dilo. Or outmanuever it and fight back.

[hallow hinge]

hmm have u ever play as a dilo or raptor

[golden coral]

But comparing omni being actually demanding, with dilo, a playable that haven't really been balanced, or even fully works, is a bit odd. Even more so when dilo is most likely extra popular because A, it's new and B, it's dilo

[hallow hinge]

cuz if u have some brain as a dilo u can one bite whenever raptor try to evade

[golden coral]

Yes. I've tried out dilo, but I also tend to play solo so I stay away from omnis since I don't want to bleed to death. Been a while since I played omni, haven't gone up against dilos. And currently I'd just avoid them because of the massive hordes they come in.

And I was purely pointing out that omni is more agile than dilo, so you do have that advantage. Plus being able to jump.

At least the dilo players I've heard from feel that dilo turning is pretty bad, I didn't find it terrible myself but I might just play more to the speed than the agility so it works for me

[hallow hinge]

u cannot jump everytime ??? are having problem with understanding dilo has enough agile to bite when they try to evade

i have experienced that as a raptor and dilo everytime works every single time

[golden coral]

Maybe it does, I've not really chased omnis around that much, since I'd rather not risk an altercation with an omni. But it doesn't change that omni does have agility, even if it may not have quite enough. Or maybe it does and you just know your own moves too well.

[hallow hinge]

i guess they try to use it like raptor

[golden coral]

Possible, I didn't find the turn too bad, but yeah, I also tended to treat it a bit more like carno in a sense, so maybe that was why

[hallow hinge]

let me tell u raptor is like free meal for dilo

[golden coral]

And maybe it's good enough to keep up with omni, but I've also heard omnis say they can take on dilos so maybe it can go both ways

[hallow hinge]

only if u can suprise pounce yeah u can

[golden coral]

But that's probably more down to dilo being a bit overtuned and not balanced yet, especially the venom seems to be quite harsh, the 10 min lasting and so on

[hallow hinge]

btw i dont complain about back pounce or face pounce removed

but it is huge nerf and it was always an issue to land pounce if it's more risky rn cuz if u cannot do u will get free bites it must have reward also

like it can be when first land it can deal more damage and bleed

[golden coral]

Well, I doubt balance is done forever, so no doubt there'll be adjustments to every playable again

[hallow hinge]

something like that

[golden coral]

I'm still waiting and hoping for the stego rekit! Being a stego main, it'll be nice if stego gets some variation in attacks and so on. And omni will be getting the pounce to pin mechanic, so that could also be a part of why the pounce got changed.

Since otherwise it might be way too easy to just pile on and bring something down, for all we know at least

[hallow hinge]

ofc then everyone would do face pounce and kill everything

[golden coral]

Just something to consider, balance and even mechanics are not final, and the devs do seem to, at times make changes even when other parts are missing and so on

[hallow hinge]

but something is must dilo's speed and venom

[golden coral]

See stamina changes, that I think most of us feels would work, if changes to hunger and trot speeds and stuff were a thing too

[hallow hinge]

they should definetly nerfed

[golden coral]

Dilo venom do need some fixes and adjustments, yeah

[hallow hinge]

just today as a dilo pack we just demolised 6 fg teno

like almost they are nothng

[golden coral]

From what I've heard, and personally agree with, dilo venom need to be more interactive on the dilos side

Not just get target to stage three, then sit far away and laugh them to death, more or less

[hallow hinge]

yeah i killed 3 of them like just without taking any damage

[golden coral]

We've gotten omni to a more interactive and demanding place, and then we get dilo being "afk" killing things

[hallow hinge]

yah thats my point bro

[golden coral]

Hence why I don't think dilo has been through a full balance yet

[hallow hinge]

when i play omni i risk my life

one mistage bam u ded

[golden coral]

Honestly I doubt even dilo mains will enjoy the whole "I'll just sit here and spam clones" at the target in the long run

[hallow hinge]

😄

i actually like killing biggier dinos

[golden coral]

No doubt it's fun for a while to be powerful and all, but engagement should be fun too, or so I'd like to think

[hallow hinge]

the day before i killed solo carno too

sub

[golden coral]

Hence why I'm so unhappy with stego, sure you got stats, but the critter itself and it's options are just not very well designed

[hallow hinge]

btw as a stego 2 dilo can kill u without taking any damage

[golden coral]

So yeah, most playables could do with some refinements and adjustments to their mechanics and abilities and all

[dusky surge]

that's partially because stego is rather bad and dilo is VERY good

[golden coral]

Oh I've no doubt, I've heard dilo can do decent bleed, and stego require stamina to do much of anything

And I'd imagine as a fully grown stego, wasting stam on trying to run up on the illusions to bite them may be a bad idea

[hallow hinge]

you guys know venom deal how much damage ?

[golden coral]

Both because you're slow, and you need that stam to attack

[dusky surge]

stego's ability to actually sustain itself in an endurance hunt is garbage, it's genuinely terrible, which is why omniraptor hunts on stego get MUCH easier the longer goes

[golden coral]

I think it does the same as the dilo?

[dusky surge]

85, yes

[hallow hinge]

85 for 10 min for 10 sec cooldown

[golden coral]

And I've heard there's no locational, so you always do that 85, and apparently it's also almost always a trade if you don't bite the illusion before it starts to move

[dusky surge]

yep

[hallow hinge]

if u calculate 5100 damage without any risk 😄

[golden coral]

So I don't know if stegos, with their reach, can actually get the illusion without trading, or if it still somehow counts as the clone hitting you

[golden coral]

Oh and don't forget the spontaneous spawning that you also get, not just your active clones

[hallow hinge]

stego has 6000 hp right ?

[golden coral]

Yep

[hallow hinge]

ahaha yeah once u got venomed then u ded lol

deino killer stego can be killed with 3 head bite and venom

that is sucks

[hallow hinge]

and btw yeah stego is easy for raptors

[dusky surge]

stego is overall a very weak animal lol

[hallow hinge]

ahhh not against big ones

[dusky surge]

well, i mean, also against big ones. Rex is literally forcing it to get a kit rework, because without a kit rework, it will instantly die to rex

[golden coral]

Well, carno is also designed for small game, so yeah, it struggles. And deino is designed to use lunge, which is why it doesn't do well. But ceras can take stegos, and tenos can (tail reach and stego tiny head)

[hallow hinge]

i mean in evrima there is no rex yet

[dusky surge]

there will be, very soon

[golden coral]

To be fair, stego was designed for AI, or so I've heard at least, so it makes sense it's not a very well designed playable

[dusky surge]

its the animal after the next

[hallow hinge]

yeah but bro u can oneshot ceras lol

[golden coral]

Deino struggling is more down to them wanting deino to use lunge, and it wouldn't be fun if the 5 hour animal just... up and dies because deino happens to be there

[golden coral]

I know, on headshot. But they are surprisingly agile, and their bile will result in a terrible day. And then you got the funny that if you do kill one of them, now the other ones are buffed! And then they can survive even a headshot.

[hallow hinge]

if they don't change i bet i can kill rex with dilo lol

[dusky surge]

probably lol

[hallow hinge]

if they put rex in game it must be really slow and turn like real truck

[dusky surge]

from what we've seen, it's neither

its agility isn't great, but it's fast

[golden coral]

Rex would die to both dilo and omni (at least omni before the pounce change, now it might be harder but it's also a big and slow target so there is that)

[hallow hinge]

i bet rex will be faster than raptor 😄

[golden coral]

I sincerely doubt that xD

[dusky surge]

it isn't

it's around 30-40km/hr

at least from what we've seen in recent dev streams

[hallow hinge]

dilo must be 45km/h imo

[dusky surge]

dilo is 47.5

[hallow hinge]

yeah but it need to be 45

[dusky surge]

i personally don't know if that's a good idea

i'd prefer its damage be reduced than its speed

[hallow hinge]

bro just dilo outrun everything

except carno

[dusky surge]

i mean carno does destroy dilo

[hallow hinge]

hmm i kill sub carnos pretty much lol

cuz dilo has enough agile to dodge

[hallow hinge]

i have watched cera fight he is really good raptor but come on cera u cannot just stand and try to alt bite

[dusky surge]

you dont really have much other options tho

[hallow hinge]

i see a bush and tree against raptor bush and tree is good use bro

cuz raptor has kinda close cam bushes making hard to see and also gives cera to take position and suprise attack

[solemn citrus]

How do yall let raptors stay on yall when yall can immediately buck them off or even knock them off with steggo right click tail? I know a lot of people are calling for balances on them, but they need buffed honestly, yall just dont know how to deal with them.

[golden coral]

Stego can't knock an omni off with it's attack from what I know. And bucking is apparently decent again, though it varies with the critter in question. And it's not a matter of not knowing how to deal with them, but rather that the ways to deal with them are often not very engaging, on either side for that matter.

[sharp patrol]

Troodons pounce should definitely be reverted or atleast allow them to pounce from behind

[dusky surge]

i disagree, i think troodon just needs its venom application to not be so reliant on pounce. If dilo can bite to apply, Troodon should too

TBH, I never understood why Troodon needed a pounce to begin with

[sharp patrol]

I mean that would also be a fine change

It's not like it's much different from its pounce, it's pounce is basically just a bite that latches on

Right now it's just the worst carnivore, any other carnivore 30 minutes in(the time it takes to grow a troodon w full diet) is just better

[dusky surge]

I heard a really cool suggestion where Troodon's venom behaves somewhat like cerato's bile.

When you take a pounce at full envenomation, 20% of your stam goes "grey" like with bile. If the amount of "grey" exceeds your current stamina count, you do the puke animation, except you puke blood, reducing your health, bloodpool and stam but not your food or water, and it doesn't give you vomit sickness

[sharp patrol]

I saw that too I was a fan of it as well

I like the idea of troodon having a more physical venom, in the wild venoms and poisons take all sorts of appearances

[dusky surge]

Yep

[sharp patrol]

Rn cerato feels more venemous than troodon

[dusky surge]

Troodon is supposed to be the body, dilo is supposed to be the mind

[sharp patrol]

In troodons concept after biting a teno it literally does puke

[dusky surge]

yep

[sharp patrol]

I'd also like the shaking effect that t3 troodon venom Dino's have to also be incorporated into an actual effect and not just physically

[dusky surge]

all venom stages cause the animal to shake

[sharp patrol]

Oh I guess I only noticed t3 cause it's the most severe

[dusky surge]

I feel like a bile-esque element would encourage Troodons to swarm more and make them feel more brutal

Cerato's bile targets survival elements like food, water, nutrition and stamina, as well as giving you the inability to refresh them without risk of puking, so it makes sense as a defensive body guarder who people don't want to interact with

Troodon's would be designed to reduce stats that the animal uses to survive, making it suitable for offensive play

[sharp patrol]

It also adds to its defense, it's a fragile animal but do I really wanna mess w it and possibly have to deal w the consequences of its venom

[slim dragon]

I think both troodon's and dilo's venom should be limited in quantity
But troodon's should also be made more potent (I like the puking blood idea too) to compensate

Fun fact, I'm the person who suggested for troodon to only apply venom with its pounce
But it also implied it having limited venom

#general-feedback message

[sharp patrol]

That's already how it is

Ur suggestion is how it currently is

Only troodon pounce applies venom, and it only does one hit

And it's venom sucks troodon is terrible atm

[slim dragon]

My suggestion is from before troodon was implemented duh

[sharp patrol]

Oh I didn't notice the date

[sharp patrol]

I think an interesting ptera could have would be a speed multiplier

Similar to herrera's height w jump, if the ptera goes for a dive and gets a hit while going fast should do more damage, also adds a skill component cause if they mess up they crash into the ground

[thin mantle]

Ptera should never be given a mechanic to enable jt dealing higher damage

[hollow canyon]

If Pteranodon hit something while diving at high speed there'd be little Pteranodon left to actually do anything with the fact that it did something to whatever it was it hit

[thin mantle]

There’s that too lol

[sharp patrol]

But predator drone ptera 😦

[coarse pollen]

@stiff tendon the hallucinations are just an interactive mechanic to the VENOM inside of you taking its toll on your body.

[dusky surge]

sounds like it'd be less fun to fight than current dilo lol

[stiff tendon]

okay but why the hell does it not effect the deino when they're in the water.. or if you are standing on top of rocks... or on top of the wall... or even on a hill? OR if you simply damage the shadow version of the dilo that they spawn with right click, that destroys it and hence it doesnt pounce at you and you take no damage.. it makes no sense @coarse pollen

[coarse pollen]

It’s brakeable unfortunately. It was in my suggestion. There are way to keep them from spawning which I really hope they fix.

[sharp patrol]

The reason it doesn't work for the rocks and walls and hill isn't intended that's just bugs

Also the Ai for clones isn't good enough to mistake for a real dilo

Not only that but you hit the clone either way so it wouldn't matter about distracting

[stiff tendon]

for example a player dilo could be just outside invisible in the fog, press right click which spawns the clone ( or spawns it after a second or 2 ) , then walk into the visible range of the opponent and " pretend " they're the clone, by walking up a little bit, pressing 3 which the clones also do, then go in for the attack simultaneously with the clone is what i was thinking... right now you bite the target a few times and just stand miles away while spamming right click.....

it should be a hallucination and nothing more.. right now it's just a friggin mage type dinosaur which uses ranged attacks and its kinda BS 😄

[dusky surge]

then the venom doesn't actually... do damage

the hallucinations are meant to be the depiction of the venom itself attacking your system, except done in a "cool/scary gameplay" way

[stiff tendon]

but that makes no sense because if you get poisoned that means you already loose , and there is no counterplay

[dusky surge]

i mean, you can solve that by making venom not last so long, and making dilo (and its hallucinations) do less damage

hell, fixing the fact that it is impossible to destroy the clones without trading with them once they're active would also be nice

[stiff tendon]

i think itd be better if the fog was further away you only really can't see stuff very far away and the dilo has to be in visible range of you to spawn the clone, because then you can see them spawning the clone and decide if you want to attack,

[dusky surge]

the fog is supposed to be claustrophobic

giving you a wide range of vision kinda counteracts the whole point of that

it really isn't the biggest core issue of the fog

you can easily find the hallucinations because they will always 3 call and stand still before going to attack

[sharp patrol]

Yeah except the dilo doesn't know where the clones are and where the vision fog is, so chances are the dilo could just be right next to the clone and the ruse doesn't work

Should dilo do less damage yea but the hallucinations should do damage

Otherwise it's j useless

[stiff tendon]

nah, hallucinations should do no damage, no hallucinations do damage in real life too

make teh dilo see the clone it spawns and work with it to mess with other dinoos

[frail bobcat]

is this a game or irl?

[stiff tendon]

everyone keep saying "hallucinations"

aat this point the dilo is just a mage dinosaur

[frail bobcat]

well, no one except the envenomated dinosaur can see them, so they kinda are

[stiff tendon]

but they bite you as they would if they were a physical thing...

[dusky surge]

again, it's meant to be a visual representation of the venom on your system

just gamified because it is a video game

[stiff tendon]

if only there was a dinosaur that already has venom mechanic

[frail bobcat]

what the other guy said

[sharp patrol]

Troodons venom mechanic is hilariously awful

[frail bobcat]

there are different types of venom

[stiff tendon]

and dilo's is hilariously overpowered

exactly, venoms that do damage, and venooms that cause hallucinations 😄

[dusky surge]

not wrong but removing the hallucination damage makes it really weak lol

[sharp patrol]

Reduce duration by half and lower dilo base damage

[dusky surge]

all venoms do damage, that's the point of venom

[sharp patrol]

That's what venom is

Biological Chemical warfare

[stiff tendon]

again, hallucinations doing any damage at all makes NO sense whatsoever, make the dilos see their own clones , spawn them after a delay of 2-3 seconds after you right click ( so you can reposition ) and you can easily "pretend" you're a clone by walking into the visible range of your target, press number 3 ( thats what clones do before they attack ) and then using those clones to plan an attack , that would balance it out, the dilo is already big , aagile and has plenty of bite force, maybe make it so every bite after the first does more damage ( the more venom you put in them ) 🙂 that's just my 2 cents

currently there is NO counterplay other than standin in water, or on a rock or something

[dusky surge]

dilos seeing the product of their venom makes NO sense whatsoever

venom should do damage, just not so much

and also not last til the heatdeath of the universe

[sharp patrol]

Dilo isn't agile either it's fast but has terrible turning Lnao

Dilo is fast but unagile then compare it to cerato which is slow busy extremely agile

[stiff tendon]

well i think hallucinations doing damage makes less sense than to actually make a fun dinosaur where you could express your skill by pretending you're a clone and working with it to attack your target

[dusky surge]

i mean, based on the fact you can just keep track of where it is, it'll be pretty ineffective lol

[sharp patrol]

Yep

[stiff tendon]

no it would be very effective, you step out of the visible range once your target has the fog around it, ( you step into the fog on their screen ) then press right click, 2-3 seconds later the clone appears where you were, targeting the venomed target, while in that time you reposition left right behind your target , wherever you want and then coordinate the attack together with your clone

[sharp patrol]

Yeah that's predictable as hell

[stiff tendon]

it's really not

how is it predictable, 2 dilos coming at you from outside the fog which you cant see past, there is literally 50% that you hit the right one , and if the players "acts" like AI, that shows skill on their part, dilo is completely broken and atm i dont see myself playing as anything other than it

it would give some counterplay too if the victim can figure out which one is real and which one isnt etc etc

[slim dragon]

actually they do
You can die from hallucinations

[stiff tendon]

no, hallucinations have never killed anyone , ever

[slim dragon]

They have

[stiff tendon]

no, they haven't lol

[slim dragon]

I'm not sure I can find it on the internet
But I know of a record of a dude who died of cold in a room that was 20°C
Because he was so convinced it was below freezing he actually died

Also I guess you can find tons of examples of that in any psych ward report

[stiff tendon]

sighs

[valid robin]

Dude Dilo works the same as it always has. 3-5 bites and u dead. The counterplay is the same as it’s always been. Run down Dilo to kill or run away. Only other pred who has a problem with Dilo rn is Cerato. Everyone else is fine.

[sharp patrol]

It's faster than every other carnivore except for carno

[delicate raven]

source: trust me bro

[valid robin]

That's my bad I thought the Wiki Stats were updated, I thought utah was faster

[slim dragon]

Source : you can actually look up "dying of fear" on the internet and educate yourself

[delicate raven]

thats not what you said lol

[scarlet onyx]

Lmao!

[vale brook]

bro wants venom to be pretty much pointless 💀 literally fight back against the hallucinations, idk what to tell you.

ill never understand people who are upset we got venom thats actually able to be fought back against instead of just classic DOT

[vale brook]

hallucinations dont kill people
"heres a record of someone dying to hallucinations"
sigh

ive never seen someone admit defeat in such a way

[stiff tendon]

alright 😄

[valid robin]

dang i gotta say it makes no sense that omni is slower than dilo, dilo kinda faster than I would expect to make sense

[sharp patrol]

Dilo is the second fastest carnivore behind carno

47km/h

[tropic horizon]

The more I’ve played around with Omni against dilos the less unfair the fight has felt

Like sure it’s hard to fight them off but you don’t instantly die and can fight back unlike what most people say

Only problem with the fight is that dilo has more stam than Omni which I don’t like at all so just give it a slight stam nerf

[sharp patrol]

Stam and is faster than Omni

@lyric axle it is alr on its diet according to patch notes

[valid robin]

In terms of actual combat i think Omni doesn't fall short, but in terms of general survival that extra speed and stam really mean a lot. You can get further, fight longer, chase things down easier, and run away easier.

[tropic horizon]

Yeah, also doesn’t help that once you kill the dilo in some cases you still lose the fight since you’ve just been given a lengthy status effect that practically shuts your dino down

[obtuse totem]

dilos are OP

[tropic horizon]

Nerf it’s stam and venom duration, that would probably fix it

And maybe it’s damage

[obtuse totem]

i completly agree

[valid robin]

yeah, imo dmg is fine but I agree stam and/or speed nerf and venom duration nerf and its fine

[stark knoll]

@lyric axle It already is

[lyric axle]

Oh my bad

[dusky surge]

what?

[tropic horizon]

Confusion

[vale brook]

huh

[tropic horizon]

Yeah cera kinda struggles against groups of dilos. But even then to counter them you could always run to a source of water and you instantly win the confrontation

And 1v1 Cera claps dilo with no issues

Was the cerato fully envenomated and was he standing by a body of water or a cliff

Probably a dumb bug or something

Which sucks but hopefully they fix it

Bugs across the board are tough for most playables

Oh yeah then your venom can’t hit them. It’s weird but if the clone detects like a little sheet of water you could call it, the clone stops trying to chase the target

Yeah if you’re anywhere near water vs dilo you’ve pretty much got a guaranteed W on your hands

[sharp patrol]

Dilo hitting tails does not apply venom so could be a hit box thing

[verbal girder]

For me it is very important that the Pteranodon could sniff when he fly. hopefully this will changed in the future.

[tardy wind]

Keep in mind a few things here. I don't know if it applies to you or whether you know about them or not so I'll tell you just incase hahah.

Dilo Venom can only be applied by individual Dilos. It's different to Troodons venom in the sense that they have to work together to apply venom. It's entirely idividual for Dilos aside from the visibility which does add on from additional Dilo venoms (until 3rd stage vision clouding that is).

You also have to get the Dino to 3rd stage of Venom before clones can deal damage. If it's not third stage, the clones DO work but they only run up and intimidate the target, they do NOT attack until 3rd stage.

[golden coral]

@coarse pollen Im not sure what the "long term vision" of the game has to do with specific playables being overtuned or not. And while you could in theory keep the "pre nerf" playables, you'd instead have to up all the other ones and everything to change and adjust balance anyway. If carno was kept, then everything else would have needed changes, same with omni and most likely dilo as well if it remains as it is. So while buffing could be preferred to nerfing, you'd still have to take into account how powerful a playable should be in relation to the others and all that.

[coarse pollen]

It’s definitely more work, but as the roster gets flushed out balance will have to be changed anyway, this should right up there with updating diets for every carnivore anytime something is added into the game.

[coarse pollen]

And because the rosters isn’t done, the game isn’t finished, when something is released and its powerful it’s because its counterpart isn’t out yet, which is understandable, but nerfing every to keep dryo viable isn’t the direction balance should go.

[golden coral]

I'm not sure how any of those changes related to dryo to be fair. And sure, but "counterpart" isn't really a thing. Things have to be balanced for everything, not just "counter". You can't go "carno should be like this, because x animal will counter it", for any playable.

[coarse pollen]

Well it’s a food chain, things are meant to keep other things in balance in that sense. And I wasn’t speaking on dryo specifically, insert any random low tier Dino, hypsi, beipi, troodon. But all I was getting at is that you nerf everything, nothing is powerful and it’s not fun. If you revert the nerfs, and then everything is powerful, so nothing is. But also everything is fun.

[frail bobcat]

power creep is a thing

[coarse pollen]

What do you mean?

[dusky surge]

power creep

its a phenomenon in game design caused by an inability to realise when the scale of power something is capable of significantly harms the experience of other players, or the gameplay loop itself

[frail bobcat]

Pokemon is a good example

[stark knoll]

In other words, it can be when new additions to a game consistently outperform/outclass older content, bringing the baseline of effectiveness up and shoving parts of a game into obscurity

[dusky surge]

you want a really good example?

this video is timestamped specifically at the point relevant to this convo
https://youtu.be/lCMcNIV7h5Q?t=278

explicitly discusses power creep as a concept, as well as buffs vs nerfs

but TL;DR, you could absolutely keep buffing things

you could buff them till a single touch equals death

[frail bobcat]

omni 100 n biteforce

[dusky surge]

but the thing is, that removes engaging counterplay

once you reach a point of buffing, it becomes not a matter of who's the most skilled, but who can make the first move, or entirely avoid ever taking an attack, because the abject power of the attacks are so great that it immediately sways the fight

weaknesses, and how to exploit them, are just as if not more vital to the engaging nature of a fight than strengths and how to utilise them

most specifically, this video mentions "overcentralisation", where a mechanic becomes so unbalanced, it makes the fundamental aspects of the game irrelevant

the isle is a game built around time investment, and needs to respect that time, constant buffs lead to a lower time to kill and a lower survival rate for fights, as well as a higher mortality rate in all matchups

this actively disrespects people's time investments, leading to player frustration

[hallow hinge]

bro This Dilo wtf! they can stack clones?? i was playing raptor i found a solo dilo we fight a bit i got venomed and i jumped on a wall resting but i wasn't hurt much yellow hp bar so i decided i can go down and apply some more bleed when i jumped down 3 clone attacked me at the same time and got oneshoted from yellow hp which is around %70

[uncut trellis]

@heady bobcat Three pachys taking down a cerato doesn’t sound out of the norm to me

[hollow canyon]

I would argue that this game has experienced the opposite of powercreep... a power-leakage if anything?

[sharp patrol]

tbh its pretty fitting for 3 pachys to beat a cerato

[uncut trellis]

The size difference isn’t even that great, it’s like a 150lb person compared to a Labrador. If the lab runs and jumps at you, you’re probably gonna fall over. And if the lab is a horse bird with a boulder for a head, it’s gonna break something

[tropic horizon]

Imagine wanting to nerf pachy when it’s just fine

[tropic horizon]

Besides it’s stupidly long cooldown on its ability

[hollow canyon]

well Cerato is well over twice the size of a Pachy but 3 Pachies being able to kill it doesn't sound too wrong

then again I'm surprised if they could do that without losses as Ceratosaurus can hit pretty hard and very fast so I would imagine some would die

[uncut trellis]

Only when it misses though

[tropic horizon]

Ye that what I’m referring to

[uncut trellis]

I agree, even if none died many would probably walk away with low health

[slim dragon]

Cera also has fracture resist
So it kinda counters pachy

[tropic horizon]

And cera can just walk up to a source of water and be A-Ok

[uncut trellis]

They’re also not that much slower, so they can easily keep pace with pachys

[cobalt dagger]

@heady bobcat
Cera used to have some kind of fract resist to protect it from Pachy's, I think.

Currently, for a solo pachy to survive a carno or other large carnivores, it needs to (and is intended to by balance) to break the predator's leg and run away.

However if they outnumber the animal then they can break it's leg and kill it, too... But if we take away pachy's ability to break legs of larger animals, it will have no defense.

Carno and raptor are faster than pachy, but cera is slower. That is why they gave cera the fract resist. When a carno sees 4 pachy he can run away, unless they ambush him. When the cera sees 4 pachy, an ambush isn't even necessary, he might just die.

It is really annoying to die to a group you couldn't run away from though.

Fast things - and pachy in the sense that they break legs and make you slow - really excel in groups because they can use their numbers advantage to overpower whatever they come across, and their speed advantage to make sure whatever they come across cannot escape the unfair fight.

[median hazel]

Tail bites don’t apply venom, has to be head or body shot.

[median hazel]

Yea that’s why I laugh at the complaints of dilo being “op” unless you catch someone completely off guard , by the time you get anything to stage 3, you’re on death’s door step yourself

[inland epoch]

the games actually really well balanced. played every single dino recently and done extremely well (given a chance to grow) on all of them. just be smart in how you play. pretend you're a wild animal and you're good

[dusky surge]

no it doesn't lol

being able to bite a prey item without trading shouldn't be hard

dilo absolutely is OP, it's hysterical that its inability to tailride somehow changes that

[tropic horizon]

Cera doesn’t two shot dilos, Teno two shots them with head shot kicks and yet the kick is well telegraphed and you can bait it out and then attack the teno on its flank. As for deino you shouldn’t be fighting deino as a dilo that is absolute suicide.
How do you hit your opponents on their body or head without trading? You bait the attack out. Also you shouldn’t really be attempting to 1v1 large animals like cera, carno, and teno as dilo that’s absolutely ridiculous.

[dusky surge]

the fact that you consider a fight with rex and dilo something the dilo should even have a remote chance in makes me truly believe you want this thing to be insanely OP

[tropic horizon]

And if anything dilos small heath and bleed actively discourages face tanking.
You’re either gonna bleed out or die from raw damage trying to do that lol

[dusky surge]

tailbites don't exist because you're encouraged to fight, not tailride and run away

it's why cerato's sceptic bite was removed from tailbites too

[dusky surge]

well, actually, its health lets it get away with a lot more facetanking than it should lol

[tropic horizon]

In theory but bleed will set in afterwards and stop that right in its tracks

[golden coral]

I imagine a dilo should never, ever, engage a rex, so that is not an issue.

[tropic horizon]

Dilo can’t fight deino or Rex, oh the horror however will the Dilo players survive

[golden coral]

Tailbites should never be affected by venom, bile, or other similar things that has that kind of powerful effect

[dusky surge]

"push for realism"

"that's why dilo should kill one"

how does anyone stand a chance if it's a risk to rex

[golden coral]

They're not made for bleed much anymore, just the venom. And it's not so much slow killing as it's "afk killing". And apexes should have a hard time, sure, but not from a dilo, that is'nt really meant to punch up, or so it was said.

Also, if you're talking about having a massive pack, then sure, but then you can bait and go in, or even lose a few packmates in the hunt, which is reasonable if you're going up against an apex.

[dusky surge]

you literally just listed all the reasons it's OP

[golden coral]

Similar sized critters. Dilo is currently overtuned, with far too powerful venom, and a bit too high bleed/damage for what it needs.

[tropic horizon]

It can hunt everything in the game that isn’t a deino or a stego

[golden coral]

Dilo isn't done being balanced from what I know

[tropic horizon]

How is that the takeaway from what I said

[scarlet onyx]

Dilo kills anything its own size so fast with dmg alone the venom doesnt even become a factor for what its 'supposed' to hunt, mostly. big issue I have with it

[tropic horizon]

Dilo shouldn’t be hunting apexes what are you on about man

[golden coral]

What now? Deino is easy yes, stego less so. And dilo can shred stego, and probably shred deino (if it for some reason stayed on land) as well. Omni is finally being somewhat balanced, so there is that at least.

This idea that everything needs or should punch up to apexes is weird, even more so when herrera doesn't get any punch up power barely, while dilo somehow should hunt apexes?

Allo/alberto in packs

[tropic horizon]

Not every pack animal should hunt everything

[golden coral]

And the whole "sit back and chill" is why dilo venom needs changes

Because the whole "bite, then afk kill" is terrible, quite frankly

[tropic horizon]

By that logic troodon should be fighting rexes because it’s a pack animal with a slow killing kit

I never said that

[dusky surge]

dilo is designed to be a solitary hunter that prefers animals around its own size, not a pack hunter that takes on apexes

[tropic horizon]

Dilo is a small tier what do you mean lmao

[golden coral]

Dilo is small tier

[dusky surge]

dilo is small tier

[golden coral]

Carno is barely midtier, so yeah

[tropic horizon]

Also small tier

[dusky surge]

extra small, tiny, whatever you wanna call it

[tropic horizon]

Why do you want dilo to hunt apexes instead of the things actually designed to do it

[dusky surge]

and dilo is a lot smaller than rex, regardless of its tier

[golden coral]

Anyway, we could let dilo hunt apexes, but consider this. If omnis, who are meant to hunt apexes, would require 15 of them for a rex, and lose 10 of them, dilo should have an even harder time

[dusky surge]

or we could just make dilo incapable of doing it, which frankly it should be

[golden coral]

So no matter how we look at it, dilo would and does need severe nerfs, so you actually need a pack, or better yet, two of them cooperating, if you want to take down an apex

[tropic horizon]

Ehrm dilo should hunt everything because it’s venomous ☝️🤓

[dusky surge]

dilo has the smallest pack size of any small tier, so it's not even meant to be a pack hunter

anyway nerf dilo

[tropic horizon]

Still don’t understand the “Dilo apex hunter niche” idea that floats around. Just sounds like people want legacy dilo v2

[dusky surge]

you understand it perfectly then

it killed apexes in legacy, so it must in EVRIMA

hell, they even want the tail ride component back lol

[tropic horizon]

Because killing people without any resistance whatsoever is awesome and great game design!1!1!!1!1!!

[dusky surge]

as someone who has played the apex on the recieving end, haha yea no

[tropic horizon]

I’ve played both ends of it and it’s just sad both ways

[dusky surge]

losing that many hours of your life to "epicdilo543" because he knows how to rub himself against your ass doesn't make me like the game more

its so weird that people associate "apexes should be challenging" with "killing apexes in the least interactive way possible is good because they picked apex"

[sharp patrol]

The two animals that were built to take on animals larger than them are troodon and Omni

[dusky surge]

pretty much

not to say no other animal can punch up, or that no other animal should be able to do punch up at all, but troodon and omni are explicitly designed to punch up to such levels

like, a dilo taking on a teno isn't horrible, it's not the end of the world

[tropic horizon]

And the devs specifically stated that dilo wasn’t supposed to punch up well

[dusky surge]

^

[tropic horizon]

And yet we still have this

[sharp patrol]

Yeah exactly

Now my real question is why are the little birds not on troodons diet 😠

[daring spindle]

Troodon simply dislikes the taste, as it has an advanced palate

[vale brook]

iirc dilo venom was specifically mentioned to not really effect things that are that large

[dusky surge]

dondi explicitly said he didn't want dilo being a punch up animal lol

as weird as dilo's diet is, it's probably that way because dondi didn't like the idea of it punching that high

although it has stego so nothing truly makes sense

[vale brook]

imo stego should probably be the largest animal it can get really hurting with its venom

or whatever replaces stego weight wise when stego gets its buff

[dusky surge]

this implies para would be at risk from dilo lol

[vale brook]

im not completely opposed to that

however it would require the interactiviness and duration that people have been suggesting since dilo release

plus i imagine paras will love packing, and it seems to have some sort of stun call to help with things.

[dusky surge]

i mean, i'm still very much against the "herd up to live" argument

[vale brook]

yeah, im not really saying they should have to, but thats probably what they're gonna do.

it should be about an 80/20 in para favor when it comes to dilo

[dusky surge]

i genuinely think that's lowballing the hell out of para lol

[dusky surge]

i can guarantee you now that para will be a dead species if you're required to herd up to live

[vale brook]

no one is saying theyre required to

but i mean... thats what they're gonna do. thats what every animal does in game lol

[dusky surge]

not true, every animal in this game is viable solo

[vale brook]

im talking about moreso what the players themselves will do. should para be capable of handling dilos? absolutely. will players herd in game because thats what most people do anyway? absolutely

so while you shouldnt balance things to account for that, its alteast important to remember

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/778350260027129865/1197048732903018578 this would have been upvoted almost 100% if they didnt add that bit at the bottom

[dusky surge]

"make stego get shredded by anyone who knows how to headbite lol"

120 degrees too

that's an insanely massive weakspot

[vale brook]

literally legacy stego 2.0

[dusky surge]

i love how any suggestion regarding stego is either

• massive nerf
  or
• reasonable change, paired with a massive nerf

[vale brook]

fix stego hitbox
yeah!
reduce its range by half and make it completely unable to protect its head
oh.

[golden coral]

Worse, because legacy could move and attack

[vale brook]

so unbelievably true

[golden coral]

So yeah, you could limit the range more like legacy, if you also allowed for jabs while walking/trotting, so you could turn, and move, and still react

[tropic horizon]

The mean stegosaurus must pay for its sins!!!1!!1!1!1!(it committed the crime of being able to kill deino)

[vale brook]

(the deino is stupid and could literally just go in the water)

[tropic horizon]

As we all know deino is a trash playable because it dies to stegosaurus(when literally letting the stego kill it)

[golden coral]

it's still funny because it's not the predator in that relationship, stegos can't actively go out and successfully hunt deinos, no matter how much they want to

[tropic horizon]

Like the deinos are acting as if they’re getting spearfished out the water by stegos like you can always just click control and render the stego completely incapable of killing you

[vale brook]

but im a crocodile 😠 i should be able to kill the stego

these same people then complain about deino being op

[dusky surge]

people when realising that deino and stego were indeed added too early

the most redeeming quality to stego is the fact that it messes up deino

[tropic horizon]

Could’ve replaced them with Bary and Kentro but oh well one could dream

[dusky surge]

despite me never once actively wanting to select stego as a first option while playing this video game, the reason i advocate for it not getting nerfed is
A: It actually is legit a bad animal lol
B: Deino exists

If it was just stego I'd want it out too lol

[tropic horizon]

Literally the most underdeveloped and bland playable atm although the rework should fix it

[dusky surge]

When hypsi is a more indepth animal than stego

And that thing literally, actively is not done

Like it is less than half the animal it's meant to be

[tropic horizon]

Dryo is more developed than stego and it still doesn’t have its core mechanic yet

[dusky surge]

DRYO HAS A BETTER FEELING COMBAT THAN STEGO

Dryo is MORE ENGAGING TO FIGHT WITH THAN STEGOSAURUS

And dryo is designed as a prey animal first and foremost

[tropic horizon]

It’s just saddening if anything

Stegos just a cardboard cutout with spikes attached to it that just stands around looks cool, and occasionally murks a group of crocodiles

[dusky surge]

When a dryosaurus is arguably better at punching up than a stegosaurus

That is amusing

People love to use deino as an argument for why rex will be doomed against it

But like... Deino is slow as hell, inagile as hell, and has the hitbox the size of a continent

A stego is going to hit it 95% of the time

[tropic horizon]

Me when deino is actively encouraged to not participate in combat with anything

Like if you just avoid fighting stegos and dying you’re pretty much fine as long as ai or your own species doesn’t screw you over

[dusky surge]

The only thing a deino will ever have to fear is spino

[tropic horizon]

And even then spino won’t be able to catch a deino if it just dives

[keen plover]

Punch up dilo isn't even that bad. It's BS to fight rn but I don't think large tiers should be completely immune to a pack.

[obtuse ocean]

That goes for most ? If i die to a rex as mid tier. I didnt see it coming : P

[halcyon elk]

Imo spino should be faster. But only if it's hippo walking

[dusky surge]

faster than a swimming deino?

[halcyon elk]

Mhm. But it's swim is slow as all hell.

[dusky surge]

you realise how insanely fast that hippo walk would have to be right?

[halcyon elk]

How fast?

[dusky surge]

deino is the fastest swimmer in the game

it literally outspeeds beipi

[halcyon elk]

I mean if I may say, hippos run at the bottom of water at like 45 mph. Or 72.4 kph.

Idk how fast deino is, but spino should be fast enough to catch up via hippo running. But the main thing is that spino can't swim well. Making deinos more inclined to be in deeper bodies of water to prevent being attacked by spino.

[uncut trellis]

@eager goblet the devs have openly stated they want to change up troodon to make it easier to play

[eager goblet]

Its impossible to play now

I'm a good troodon player. And I miss 7/10 pounces.

All your target has to do is to twist like 30 degrees and you'll smack into them

They made it harder

[uncut trellis]

I think it’d be cool if troodon could pounce from any angle, It looks like it could latch to the head of a bigger one easily

[eager goblet]

It used to

I don't know what exactly posessed the devs to make it this way

[dusky surge]

pounce should be this way, magnet pounce is absurd, adjustmets do need to be made for troo tho

[eager goblet]

I agree that you shouldn't be able to pounce head on for eexample

But what we have now is insane. You can hit the thigh of a stego and stillll not click it

So I think there needs to be a hitbox for it that doesn't include the shins, front limbs, head and tail

[slim dragon]

Um... 72 km/h ? Hippos, underwater ?
I think you wanna check your sources... that's faster than the fastest sharks in the world...

[halcyon elk]

I may be wrong. They can certainly run on land that fast.

[dusky surge]

they absolutely can not

that's faster than a cheetah lmao

[slim dragon]

I'm pretty sure they can't

[dusky surge]

unless hippos have tapped into some unknown power

[eager goblet]

On land they go 40km/h
No idea in water

[halcyon elk]

Nvm I am DRASTICALLY WRONG

I got the mph and kph mixed up

[eager goblet]

Yea

[halcyon elk]

It's 40kph.

[slim dragon]

40 km/h I can believe

[eager goblet]

They turn like a brick though

[halcyon elk]

I have seen a vid of a hippo catching up to a boat

[alpine plover]

@stark knoll why no?

[stark knoll]

I think the venom should just heal faster

I don't think resting should make you immune

[alpine plover]

it dosent make you immune, it dropps you down to 10% then stops, i see no reason that you should die when the dilo has no idea where you are

if ur fighting a dilo and u lay down, ur dead theyre just gonna come up and bite you, but if you escape the dillo or win the fight ur not gonna die anyways

[stark knoll]

If the dilo is no longer there it's easier to fight the hallucinations. I think venom by default shouldn't last as long, and resting should make it heal faster

Has a similar effect without making you immune to actual venom (or bleeding, as you said) just because you're sitting down

[alpine plover]

well my suggestion dosent rly impeach on that

why not have both

you can still play the "bite nd back off" playstyle either way it just makes it so u dont die after a fight, which feel horrible idk if youve experienced it

[scarlet onyx]

personally I think hallucination spawns should just cease altogether when resting if the devs really want venom to be how it is with afk dilo phantom trading being the main "fighting" mechanic. I use the term fighting loosely here

[alpine plover]

i have no issues with the hallucinations half the time i dont even notice them when im fighting a dillo

[scarlet onyx]

depends where I am, some areas they have bugged spawning I believe. slopes/rocks

[alpine plover]

i mean like, in planes, just ingore the ones running in straight lines

[shadow vortex]

#balance-feedback message damn not again please...

[hallow hinge]

u have no issue with hallucination ?? i guess u never killed by invisible clones or stacked clones wait u to bite under ur wall or tree to bite u like this!

[golden coral]

@gray star Interesting. What do you think of the current time venom and thus "cant see, smell, do much" lasts? Would you change that?

[gray star]

I find the idea interesting. I would say allow players to smell water but not food, unless it is a cera. Let cera smell food.

[golden coral]

Would you keep the current time for it?

[gray star]

Yes with my idea 5 min is fine. Without bites you get 7 clones total the 8th recharges as venom ends meaning you have a clone when you reenvenom. If the clone damage increases the lower health you have as the target then the dilo will be forced to keep going in for bites and play smart. Even using clones at the start to land bites and use the clones as baits.
Then late game it can use the clones whenever.

Some dilos may even not use clones at the start of the fight to lower your health first before using clones to end it.
A Carno, Teno, Cera, Pachy that trades bite for bite against a dilo will win with this. Meaning that the dilo needs to ambush and needs to play smart to get you.

[golden coral]

Isn't it 10 min, not 5? But yeah, it sounds pretty good. More interactive dilo would be nice, less of an "afk killer". In general, more interactive engagements between playables would be nice.

[gray star]

It is 5 min for each stage.

[dusky surge]

5 min is just too long imho

[golden coral]

Last I heard, it's 5 min cooldown, and then 5 min from stage 3 to nothing. Are you saying it's 5 min between every stage, so 15 min from stage 3 to nothing?

[gray star]

I am saying that currently you have 5 min in each stage. So a dilo has 5 min to get you from stage 1 to 2 then 2 to 3.
In my idea I added if you survive the venom you go straight to stage 0.

[golden coral]

Hm, then total time if you get someone to stage 3 would be 10 min before venom is up?

Wonder if they changed that and the "cooldown" then or something

[gray star]

I am not sure what has confused you which makes me confused.

[golden coral]

Let's try it this way. If you put someone at stage three, and then don't touch them. How long until they are free of the venom, currently in game?

[gray star]

5 minutes

[gray star]

The time is not the issue just interactivity. which my post on balance feedback is attempting to fix.

[eager goblet]

#balance-feedback message
Opinions?

[dusky surge]

i dont think pounce needs to be reverted, but i do think troodon needs to be looked at

[golden coral]

If you can hit 7/10 pounces, I don't really see an issue honestly. And well, you're soloing things, you are of course going to struggle more than if you had another one or two troodon with you. Though I don't know what constitutes "young" targets in this case. I'm not sure how you can both claim pounce is unsuable, and then still land more than half your pounces. Also the issue wasn't only "how to defend" but to make the pounce and troodon/omni require some skill, planning and aiming.

[eager goblet]

I had the number backwards

I only hit 3 out of ten simply because they twist slightly

And no its not because I'm bad at troodon

[golden coral]

So noted. Well, that'd be when you have a friend ready to pounce on the other side I imagine. Though apparently troodon pounce is weirder than omnis, or so I heard, so could be part of it. But it'd make more sense to finetune pounce for the new changes I think. It was pretty needed for there to be something involved in using the pounce for the power and safety it gives overall. And I'd rather have more interactivity on the pounce, and adjusting terrain, than have terrain be the win condition and being in the open being the lose condition.

[eager goblet]

Yea it needs polishing. The devs said they wanted troodon to be easier to play because it has to be one of the most difficult dinos to play in this game. That and Teno. Troodon was easy to play when the punce was vanilla and you were immune to alt attacks while pouncing.

[golden coral]

Depends on what else they do with it, and how much power they want to give it. I'm not so sure on troodon being able to kill adult stegos, but I think that's more of an issue with stego than anything else.

[eager goblet]

If you're in a particularly huge pack killing adult stegos should be fine

Theres a video on YT of 10 troodons taking down an adult stego

[golden coral]

Disagree, for a quick to grow, tiny critter, there should be some limits to the power. Aside from omni, I honestly don't think most other small critters need to punch up that far. Troodons killing rexes and trikes and all just seems odd, at least for something that small.

And yeah, I know they can do it, I think it's terrible balance, but I blame it more on stego being outright pathetic for a stego, than troodon.

[eager goblet]

A pack of 10 is huge.

[golden coral]

10 tiny critters, not that huge. All together they don't even make up one dilo if we're looking at size.

No, you'd have to have at least three times that many or so to make it make any sense, and really, there's no need for it. Troodon killing midtiers is already a massive punch up for them, I don't really see why they'd need to do omnis role as well, any more than dilo needs to.

[eager goblet]

Man, 10 tiny venomous critters is kinda big

I think u underestimate troodons Niche

[golden coral]

Not really, and even so, there should still be some reason behind things

Oh, how so?

[eager goblet]

Don't pull attitude please.

Keep it chill

[golden coral]

?

[eager goblet]

The venom for troodon stacks. I think ur suggesting a nerf for troodons venom

[golden coral]

Not sure what you mean with stacks, but no, I am suggesting that troodon does not need the power and ability to punch up beyond midtiers

And I'm not sure how that relates to niche, since that's not quite the same thing

[eager goblet]

name 2 mid tier herbivores in this game

[golden coral]

Currently, we don't have any, though maia would be there sooner rather than later. But we got teno, soon diablo, and so on. Plenty large critters for a troodon.

[dusky surge]

there's no 2 midtier carnis either tho lol

[eager goblet]

teno is mid tier

[dusky surge]

you COULD count carno as one

[golden coral]

There's no need, or reason, for troodons to be able to punch up to apex level, no matter if we currently have midtiers in the game or not

[golden coral]

Not really, even carno is barely midtier if we look at the entire roster

[eager goblet]

Wdym?

[golden coral]

It's kind of at the lower end of what could and would be "mid tier" in the roster

Allo is generally seen as mid tier, and it's quite a bit larger than carno

[dusky surge]

compared to allo, carno is a pipsqueak, barely midtier if even midtir at all

[eager goblet]

Troodon and Herrera are low tier
Cera and Carno are mid tier
Dein is high tier

At least in comparison to what we have now

[dusky surge]

the discrepency in tiering really doesn't make this argument smoother lol

[golden coral]

But if you want to count teno and carno as mid, sure. Let me put it this way then, I don't think troodons need to punch up to more than about 2T or so.

[eager goblet]

When allo etc come they'll change

[golden coral]

I am looking at the entire roster though

[eager goblet]

If u feel like that pop in a suggestion see how far it goes

[golden coral]

So not "current tier" ranking, but what they are in relation to the whole. But still, troodon does not need to punch up to more than about 2, maybe 3T at most. Omni is there for punching up to apex level.

[golden coral]

Maybe, but popularity of a suggestion means little, so not sure it'd make a difference.

[eager goblet]

Then lets leave it at that

[golden coral]

Anyway, you said this, could you elaborate? Even 10 troodons aren't really much of a "size". You can have, what, 8 omnis, and that'd be way more, and even then you could make an argument that omnis should require way more than that to take on an apex. Once it was said that it'd be like 15-20 omnis to take a rex, with 10 or so of them dying before the rex does.

? So I can't discuss or argue for something if I don't make my own suggestion?

[dusky surge]

the quandary of balance feedback

[eager goblet]

#balance-feedback message What kick did omni get?

[golden coral]

It has an upwards bite and downwards kick when jumping. And then there's the kick interaction when you pounce front or rear, which could be what he's referring to. Apparently the "pounce kick" does decent damage and bleed as well.

I think the upwards/downwards attacks apply to troodon as well, not sure on the pounce kick for them, but might be a thing.

[cosmic pelican]

Iirc the claw attack does the same damage as your biteforce, and yes it applies to troodon as well

[golden coral]

Hm, then troodon at the least aren't really as affected by the change since they don't stay on anyway, unless that kick doesn't have the damage multiplier. But if their bite does, no reason the kicks wouldn't.

[sharp patrol]

Kick doesn't apply it's venom tho

[alpine plover]

whats troodons venom like?

[tall bronze]

Pounce once, wait for Troodon to rattle
Pounce again, wait for Troodon to rattle
Pounce again, wait for Troodon to REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Pounce as much as you can in the next ~45 seconds
It's just a damage boost. There's a DoT as well but it is seriously below abysmal that it's not worth mentioning. Like I mean it, it's that bad. The boost also affects bite damage as well, but there's not much point to that really.

[distant torrent]

tbh galli just doesn’t feel good to play. even carno has better accel than it. it just feels more on the clunky side

at least last time I played it which was…

a few patches ago. haven’t touched it since then because it felt bad

[cosmic pelican]

Ive played almost 10hours of galli in the past few days. Accel is fine imo, it has ungodly amounts of running stamina, once you get going nothing will be able to catch you, so it needs a weakness.

But the fact 1 kick, that doesnt even do that much dmg costs 10% stamina (same value as in spiro iirc) is absurd

someone could say its skill issue, but its hard not to miss when most animals are more agile than galli

[distant torrent]

it cost next to nothing when I had played. maybe it got tangled up with something like teno’s stam cost?

[cosmic pelican]

maybe, i really do hope its not intended

[distant torrent]

10% is incredibly absurd especially since it matches spiro’s stam cost. I’d bet it’s not

but hardly anyone knows about it because not many people play galli so there’s not much light being shed onto it lol

[cosmic pelican]

yeah ive seen a total of 3 gallis since gateway was released

[distant torrent]

imho galli doesn’t feel nearly as great on gateway as it did on spiro which is why I don’t play it. just purely how I’ve felt

[cosmic pelican]

tbh i like it more on gateway, spiro galli had asthma

it just needs to be able to kick more then its the perfect playable

[distant torrent]

I’d give it better accel

not instant but just a bit better than what it has now

then I’d consider playing it more (when the apparent spiro stam cost is fixed)

[cosmic pelican]

nevermind, its actually 5%, but it still does feel a bit too much

[dusky surge]

<@&933486433342222376> hey guys cool bitcoin giveaway thought you would be interested

[frail bobcat]

god dang, i missed it

[cobalt dagger]

I'm curious, what WILL give apexes a hard time? If the answer is mostly 'other apexes' and 'food' I think the game will become all apexes, as their food problem will be solved simply by killing the other apexes for food and killing often/KOSing.

Namely I think of how whenever Carno or Cera over-populate or the like, or even deino. Deino's worries are 'other deinos' and 'food' and yet there's plenty of them.

[golden coral]

Good questions to be honest. I can at least say just making them hard to grow won't be enough and isn't a good solution. Ideally food, the amount required and the difficulty in getting that, should be what helps regulate them. At least for carnis, but it ought to work somewhat for herbis too. Though I should point out that most midtiers would pose a threat to any apex given numbers, and then there's the omni that's apparently meant to be the apex hunter. Deinos issue, at least in part, is that it's a cannibal, it can sustain itself on it's own, with great food. And it entirely lacks much in terms of threat, since I think juvies can somewhat reliably avoid adults even still. (though from what I've heard, deinos do struggle these days, so maybe it is working better than we think?)

Looking at diets, their effects, and the ease or difficulty in having a good one, could be another option as well.

Consider this. What if, stegos food, was eaten by others. But not as food per say, but the "destruction" of the part stego eats.

So it wouldn't be a matter of eating "bad food", but rather, you eat your diet, it's the same diet, but it destroys the other part.

So you could have a small amount of dryo food, on a bush that withers because the dryo dug up the roots, without having to make the bush itself only give dryo amount of food

But when dryo eats it, all that stego food on the bush itself goes away

[cobalt dagger]

'Deino's issue is that it can sustain itself off of it's own'

This is what worries me, can Rex sustain itself off of other rexes? If not surely, it can still sustain off of other apexes, such as Giga?
I'm glad to hear that mid-tiers will be able to kill apexes with numbers, and omni too, but it seems like a group of another apex would be better apex-killers than a group of non-apexes. Any people looking to kill apexes with their friends will probably opt for that, I'd imagine. The stuff that doesn't NEED a group makes the best groups.
Hunger drain was supposed to stop carnos from over-packing or mega packing but it's never stopped me from discovering groups of 3-4 carnos whenever they have a population explosion, such as when they were able to insta-charge on gateway.
If hunger drain can't stop carno from packing up too much I don't see how it will change anything else. Ultimately the ability to murderize everything in sight because you're a group of 3 insta-charge carnos feeds you in the end.

I have noticed some stuff like the plants you mention, like how teno used to dig up potatoes but then Beipi couldn't eat the potatoe leaves anymore.
We already have limited food for herbis with the migration zones right now and honestly they are super annoying. If they got rid of migration zone and spread it around, everyone focuses a hotspot so your apex herbi could just wander until they found some plants, I think.
But I don't think enough people play herbi for herbivores to challenge each other... And especially if herbi apexes are the slowest ones, they will be outnumbered by groups of fast and equally powerful carnivore apexes, and it will be very un-fun to grow for 6-7 hours and die to a group you had no defense against, again and again and again and again because the game is full of apex carni groups and no mid tiers/If apex carnis can just live off of each other like deino does.

And if we keep migration zones as 'jail' I think Herbi populations will stay low.

I literally won't touch any herbi because I hate being trapped in an area

But I can live off of ai boars as anything that eats boars.

I've lived for so long as a Dilo in random non-hotspot places, just exploring.

That's what I loved about herbi in the past, freedom from hotspots. Now I won't touch it, because it's stuck, not in a hotspot but in the boring empty places where migrations are.

As a carni I do the same thing, my diet is sprinkled everywhere and I go find it, but now it makes sound and runs away or fights back.

Thanks to the plentiful AI I've now started playing and growing Carni's in the exact same way I did with Herbis.

The big beach in the west near Rail Access is the best place to find sea turtles in my experience, and so I consistently go there with Dilo for a sea turtle for it's first meal.

[golden coral]

Deino gains nutris from itself. Which means it remains in a good state. Not risking bad food, much less malnutrition, that could make a difference (not much in deinos case due to lunge but for other playables, it'd matter. And it will to deino when it has other threats). I don't think food drain is the solution, but the food need. Drain doesn't neccesarily work and only makes it "I have no downtime", while amount can work better.

I dislike migrations, but we're stuck with that, for good and ill. And well, herbi not being as popular as carni is an issue all of it's own. I don't really know how to solve that, unless they make carnis "hard mode" and simply don't give in and provide too good AI. Which has it's own issues in a way, with the whole "don't play carni if server empty" and so on. I share your sentiment on migration zones, but yeah, can't say much about that.

[cobalt dagger]

I liked how on spiro, plants and animals spawned in specific places, and I had to remember where they were. And it was always exciting when I found a new place where something spawned.

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah, I think it would be good if apex did not get nutrients from eating their own kind.

Might even be good if they don't get it from other apex carni, but, even then I don't think that would stop them

[golden coral]

Carnos can still survive fine, but granted, balance changes as well probably plays a part there. But at least they do need to hunt other things now. Deino could be quite limited if it applied to it too.

[cobalt dagger]

Deino's lost it's fish

[golden coral]

I do think it would, a malnutritioned critter is pretty bad

[cobalt dagger]

Is that intentional?

That it lost it's fish? Or is that a bug?

[golden coral]

Sure, a rex being malnutritioned is still a rex, but it's a subrex, not an adult anymore, basically

[cobalt dagger]

Because it makes life hard for Ptera too

[golden coral]

I think that's intentional for deino

Since they could avoid malnutrition by just eating elite fish before

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah, and starvation

I can't find out how to live as a ptera anymore though

You have to try to fly to a hotspot or a sea turtle beach as soon as you spawn in

And hope you don't starve before you get there

Because none of your spawn points are near these locations

[golden coral]

Aren't pteras meant to eat schooling fish, not elite ones?

[cobalt dagger]

Yes but I can't find any 8(

They've been kinda broken lately

[golden coral]

That would probably be a bug if they're broken

[cobalt dagger]

They spawn in when the server restarts and then never respawn if they are un-spawned

[golden coral]

I thought you meant if its intentional if elite fish no longer give nutri to deinos, which if it doesnt, I hope is intentional at least

[cobalt dagger]

This is true but I worry that, if all of the apex carnis are malnourished, it won't change much. The malnourshment debuff is -25% to pretty much everything and -70% to growth. But 75% of a rex's power is still a lot more than any singular mid-tier. And if one Rex is malnoursihed because everyone's playing rex/giga/ect, I am sure it's the same story for the other rex's too, and so if they're pretty much all malnourished than their on a same playing field again

If we look at what dinos people play, there is a pattern.

I've noticed, they pick creatures that have 'killing potential' the most often, and among the options with killing potential, they pick the ones that die the least most often.

[golden coral]

Keep in mind that there's a lot of -25%s, and they do kind of add up/work together

But true, it's not a solution itself

[cobalt dagger]

If a rex at 75% of it's power, in a world where every rex is malnourished for the same reasons, has more killing potential and more survivability than a cera, people will play that.

[golden coral]

But a rex at 75% power, might be vunerable enough to a pack of ceras

[cobalt dagger]

Only if people play enough cera! It's MORE vurnerable to a pack of other malnourished rexes.

[golden coral]

A stego at full malnutrition is not very scary, it does way less damage, takes way more damage, regenerates way less, uses way more, and so on

It's still scary but noticably less so, and definitely less capable

[cobalt dagger]

I agree that it's a huge debuff but if everyone plays rex then everyone will be malnourished.

[golden coral]

True, but I don't really know how to prevent people from just choosing the playable

No matter what counter we imagine, nothing stops people from still only choosing apex playables

[cobalt dagger]

And then you need to ask, which is worse for the malnourished rex? 3 other malnourished rexs, or 3 ceras?

The 3 ceras would need to be somehow more dangerous for people to pick it.

Now, the vomit cera has...

[golden coral]

So life has to be harsh on its own, in some way, rather than relying on a counter being present

[cobalt dagger]

That's something worth talking about, as it gives the cera a bit of killing potential.

[golden coral]

A bit... well that's one way to put it xD

But you're forgetting one thing, sure, a group of 3 rexes might be dangerous even weak

But they'd not be getting much luck in terms of getting into fights, unless the opposition can take them on

[cobalt dagger]

I think people don't pick apex as much as they pick 'killing potential paired with survivability.'

When carno had insta-charge, there wasn't as many stego as there was carno. Because carno is faster and can chase things better, so it has better killing potential than stego. Stego is more easily avoided.

[golden coral]

And with that level of weak, they're not going to win fights vs something not malnutritioned that would give, or should give, food, much less enough nutris to get back easily

[cobalt dagger]

So 3 malnourished rex wouldn't win vs 1 cera that would give them nutrients?

It would, run away?

[golden coral]

Stego has literally zero killing potential aside from a forced mirror match, if we're being honest. People pick it because we have deathmatch

So they get fights, even if they can be ignored

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah

[golden coral]

If people went "I want to live", stegos would never get any kills aside from extremely specific circumstances

[cobalt dagger]

But I think stego is like, an apex, right?

[golden coral]

So I don't think it's an ideal example

[cobalt dagger]

Yet, carno was played more, when carno had killing potential

[golden coral]

More or less, I think. Just saying that if the game was more survival, stego would have little in terms of kills, because it can't force anything to fight

[golden coral]

No, they'd win. But one cera would not give one, much less three, rexes enough food, and definitely not enough nutrients to get back to health

Or so I'd like to see it

So you'd be running a losing matchup to your hunger, and your malnutrition would prevent you from killing something that would fill you up, reliably, since it'd be a equally dangerous matchup

[cobalt dagger]

Well obviously an apex with killing potential is more favored, but my point is that, given a choice between A. An apex with no killing potential and B. A non-apex with killing potential,

People picked B more often, indicating that 'killing potential' matters more than 'apex or not,' but apex + killing potential will probably be attractive because apex kinda indicates it might have more killing potential or survivability.

[golden coral]

Well yes, but that is at least for now, because killing matters more than anything else

Which means we'd have the same issue for any playable really

Dilo currently, great killing potential from a safe spot

Meanwhile, herrera... xD

[cobalt dagger]

I think people will just stop caring about nutrients except for when they rarely find enough ceras to eat.

If rexs can't get nutrients from each other, but a malnourished rex still beats a healthy cera.... Then, pretty much all rexes will be malnourished so they'll be on an even playing field to each other, and as long as 'malnourished rex' is the thing with the most killing potential that also has survivability, then that's what people will play most of.

We DO have the same issue for every playable, we really do.

And you can't stop people from wanting to pvp

[golden coral]

It's more so that they'd end up starving

[cobalt dagger]

It will probably never stop being a priority

[cobalt dagger]

But what if they canni other rexes?

In a world full of malnourished rex.

[golden coral]

Well, that's kind of an inherent issue with carnis

[cobalt dagger]

They wouldn't get nutrients for it but it's an even match-up unless one side has numbers and the other doesn't.

[golden coral]

We could at any point have an ecosystem of only any given carni

Hell, even omni being a cannibal could do it

[cobalt dagger]

Yes, it's happened with carno

[golden coral]

Sure, you get funny spasms, but so does every other omni

So you're all equally weird xD

I think the solution there might be carni food values being worse than herbi or something

[cobalt dagger]

I think the solution is special abilities.

Like cera's vomit....

[golden coral]

Basically, carnis need to remove more food from the system than they add

[cobalt dagger]

If somehow cera could make a rex vomit and live to tell the tale, that would actually be a kind of killing potential.

[golden coral]

Otherwise you can have selfsustaining carni only, even one carni only, going on

Well if cera works like it currently does, it would have little to no problem in a group

But then what stops everyone from going cera?

[cobalt dagger]

In a group, if you can find a fellow cera in the world of malnourished rexes

[cobalt dagger]

It's like omni and carno, they can pounce but they take a big risk approaching a faster, stronger target. If they mess up, they die.

They can go for the vomit-inducing bite,

But they risk approaching a rex, even a malnourished one

People with 'less kill' will proably opt for rex and people with more will probably opt for cera to try and get rid of the annoying rex population

And then rexes will eat the ceras that die, those that live, and become nourished after too many ceras throw themselves at the rexes

And then it will be much harder for the ceras, and they might stop being cera

[golden coral]

But it doesn't really solve the problem, you could have the same with any two critters there

[cobalt dagger]

And the ecosystem will return to rex until a nother cera wave

Yes, it doesn't solve the problem. Not entirely.

There needs to be something fast, like raptor

[golden coral]

I think we're looking at it wrong

[cobalt dagger]

Something that can disengage when it doesn't want to fight

[golden coral]

We're trying to ensure there is some counter, but that relies on that counter being there, and being chosen

[cobalt dagger]

There is a looooooot of deinos...

[golden coral]

I'm not sure that's the best way to go about it

[cobalt dagger]

Because they have killing potential, and no danger other than another deino.

[golden coral]

It's like "stego prevents deino from going on land", and yes, thats true

But that is counter reliant on there being a stego

[cobalt dagger]

I couldn't call stego a deino counter

[dusky surge]

It isn't

It's essentially a dissuasion tool and that's it

[golden coral]

Basically, but it's useful as an example

[cobalt dagger]

I don't think we need a full on counter but there should be 'something to fear' for all creatures, in my opinion.

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, there should be, to more or less degree

[cobalt dagger]

That isn't their own darn kind.

[golden coral]

Ideally, it'd be the environment and stuff

[cobalt dagger]

I worry about 'what will spino fear,' other than, maybe groups of deinos

[dusky surge]

I mean, isn't that partially the purpose of hypers?

A colossal, unfeeling playable force of nature that moderates the population, then dies to itself

[golden coral]

Things that you can't get around even if no one plays your "natural counter"

[cobalt dagger]

For anything on land spino could go into the water...

[golden coral]

Only if hypers become somewhat common

[dusky surge]

which they won't be

the thing is, all creatures should exist in a state where death is one of those things you can avoid by simply using your tools

most things simply cannot stop omniraptor from just sitting on a rock, but it MUST come down to eat, and that is what will be the death of apexes

apexes NEED resources, like it or not, which will put them in a position they can't control

[cobalt dagger]

If you added counters, I am SURE people would play the counter to whatever the majority of the population was playing, if that counter was fast enough to escape groups and fast enough to pursue and finish single targets, and strong enough to win a 1v1 very consistently - But only against 1 creature? If that 1 creature had a population explosion people would DEFINITELY play the counter, because of the KILLING POTENTIAL.

But dinos take so long to grow, dying with no control to your counter is painful and un-fun. A rock-paper-scissors set-up works great for a game like Team Fortress 2 where you respawn in 10-20 seconds, but dying with no control is not ideal for taking 6 hours to grow.

This is also why I think slower things need to be stronger, so they 'die with no control' less.

I play faster things like dilo so that I have more control (no thing should have infinite control of course) over me dying.

[golden coral]

They would, and we'd get weird "waves" of playable, then counter playable, and around we'd go. I don't think that's a desireable situation at all, nor a good solution.

[cobalt dagger]

No thing should have 0 control over it's death and no thing should have supreme control over it's death, it should be a balance,

[dusky surge]

some creatures do have primary predators (dilo is heavily predated by carnotaurus due to how well carnotaurus does at countering dilo's kit), but dilo can still live it

[cobalt dagger]

But right now some creatures have way more control over their death than others.

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah I like how those two interact

[golden coral]

Ideally, smaller critters should have an easier time surviving overall than larger, but that requires surviving to be about more than just killing something or avoid being killed

[golden coral]

I think the issue is more so relying on people being carno to limit dilo, rather than there being some form of limiting dilos even on an empty server as it were

The whole "you can grow a rex on an empty server" thing or so

[dusky surge]

the issue we have now is dilo very much invalidates a lot of the roster, yet is SHREDDED by carno, and to a lesser extent, pachy

[cobalt dagger]

Well if everyone had a counter I think it would eventually smooth out. In TF2 people pick what they feel like playing and sure that might happen too but in a game where dying means so much, you might want to make your pick carefully to make sure you're not playing something where there is a population boom for your counter.

In TF2 there is an over-population of snipers and spies, but those two are the 'instant kill' class and people love instant kills. Because it's killing potential.

[dusky surge]

so the ecosystem flourishes in this trio because they interact in such a way. Dilo is dominant, which causes an explosion in creatures well built to deal with it

[cobalt dagger]

I saw an explosion of raptors too

Murdering the dilos

[dusky surge]

cerato, however, is absolutely falling to the wayside

hell, even tenonto is struggling, because carnotaurus exists in smaller numbers to hunt dilos, and teno's greatest weakness atm is numbers, it cannot deal with grouped animals well

[golden coral]

Maybe. I just don't think it's ideal to handle the ecosystem like that. And I want there to be more important things than killing potential.

[dusky surge]

putting dilo on more diets will help with expanding carni variety

carno is quite difficult to sustain atm

a simple addition to carno's diet with dilo would immediately increase their numbers, allowing more spread away from dilo

[cobalt dagger]

I like that idea. But I don't think other people do.

Like, what if there was a map that had sand storms or snow storms you had to shelter from, or what if lightning was dangerous and you had to take shelter? What if there was a hurricane? What if your dino needed to get rid of ticks or mosquitoes by rolling in mud?
Except lots of people say they don't want more tedious things to micro-manage.

I, personally, would like it if surviving required more of me than simply eating and drinking.

[cobalt dagger]

Carno should totally have dilo on it's diet and let the dilo give it // so it can finally have a plentiful source of that nutrient

[cobalt dagger]

I agree that there are more important things than killing potential, but that's not how the playerbase looks at it. Whether me or you care about killing potential, everyone picks the thing with killing potential, whether me or you like it or not.

The best thing we could do is make surviving easier than killing unnecessarily, making the game more interesting to 'survivors' and more boring for 'killers' as their attempted kills would escape and survive more often.

With the ai the way it is right now, carnis don't need kills to eat.

Basically you'd need to reduce everything's killing potential, but I am not even sure that's good.

Maybe it would be, I don't know.

[golden coral]

That's why the game has to adjust and change, so the playerbase has to as well. See stam for an example. And you're probably right, people don't want survival things in a survival game, for some reason. But hopefully the game does survival anyway.

And I don't think we should only look at solutions that apply to current playerbase mentality, since that will change

If nothing else, humans and tribals will shake things up

[cobalt dagger]

This has to do with the players that are attracted to the game.

The devs have a different vision than much of the player base does... Some of them will leave, but as the game changes to their vision, perhaps new ones interested in these changes will come.

But for right now, people love killing potential, and many of these killing-potential lovers stay in the game because they can still kill. Probably a fair few of them are going carno.

They probably won't leave unless killing becomes harder. Even if you got rid of hotspots they'd still just wander around to kos

They'd probably enjoyed uninterupted fights more

Anyway, I like how carno and dilo interact. The dilo has a way to escape, it needs to dodge and weave and use trees, it's at a disadvantage but not a helpless state. I've died and also survived carno attacks and when you do survive it feels nice, like you beat the odds.

I think this is the sort of 'counter' I'd like to see for every creature.

[golden coral]

True, but for now we also don't have all the apexes to worry about, so if we're talking current, we've no need to worry that much. And if we're talking potential future, then we should take everything into account for that. And yes, we've gotten a... not ideal playerbase because the game started out like it did. And yeah, I don't disagree on "counters" like that, but that then depends on the critters involved. Dilo and carno are closeish in size, and carno is meant to hunt small game. So while that works, it has to take the ecosystem into account in its own ways. And it still relies on that counter being there, while I'd like it to be, even if you have only stegos, the very way food, environment and everything else works would mean that only maybe 5-6 stegos in total would be able to survive. And this would apply for any playable, adjusted for numbers and all. And could be then combined with competition as well for variation.

[cobalt dagger]

Whatever applies to apex overpopulation also applies to deino/carno/cera. This problem has been a problem for a long time, with or without apexes. I just expect it to be worse because right now, deino can't really chase people on land - But Rex can, and so I think any land apexes will be more over-populated than deinos.

I mean, stegos can graze, they can survive they'd just be malnourished. But a long time ago plants worked differently. I think a counter could be around, especially if carnivorous since carnivorous thing actually have more food than herbivores right now. Their food actually spawns near them, herbi food does not.

I think a counter system would work but it would take some thinking to make it make sense.