#balance-feedback-discussion

1 messages · Page 83 of 1

golden coral
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The whole "count attacks" meta thing isn't related to the stamina recovery from what I can tell, that's a different system and different solution

distant prairie
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It's really not that hard... if someone sees you sprinting and they attack you when you stop. You'd be screwed. You'd run to the area and the predators would know how many swings you have max... if the number is low like 6 and they saw you running... they bait 5 times and your dead.

There's no recovery... they aren't gonna let you recover.

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So the pace of recovery does not matter. They sit on you. Bait the swings. And kill

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And dondi dint want that

golden coral
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Right. But I'm talking about traveling in general. Where the recovery does come in. Sure if you get caught while running, it's worse now, because no regen on trot and resting taking longer. But that does not fix the baiting and counting, at all. That is fixed via letting alts work even without stam.

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So you can still attack even while empty on stam, which means that counting out attacks is no longer that useful. You can still count them to know when the target is weakened, but it is no longer defenseless when out of stam.

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Which was the point, from what I recall, that Dondi wanted to fix. That before, a stego or teno out of stam, is a sitting duck.

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But if attacks can be done, even if they are weaker or something, at no stam, you can't go "oh okay, now he can only bite, let's dogpile him" on a target

distant prairie
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That's the point. Interesting are 2 ways of slowing the game down.

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He chose recovery

golden coral
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But slowing the game down does not relate to "metagaming"

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Those are two different points

distant prairie
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That wasn't the only way. And that's what I'm saying. I'm telling you why he chose the way he did

golden coral
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And I think you're wrong, you're thinking of the reason being combat when it's not

distant prairie
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He said counting swings was meta gaming

golden coral
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Yes, and counting swings are not fixed by slowing recovery

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Because recovery does not relate there, unless your recover was so fast that you literally could never run empty, which was never the case

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Teno and stego could absolutely be ran dry even with old stam

distant prairie
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Your associating recovery with the wrong solution

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Recovery nerf is one way

golden coral
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No, you think recovery relates to counting when it does not

distant prairie
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Attack cost is a different option

golden coral
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No, its two separate issues

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And two separate solutions

golden coral
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And made all attacks like basic bite, then there'd be no counting

distant prairie
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Erik.... they were deciding between tripling the costs of the attacks. Or tripling the time of Recovery

golden coral
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Wherever did you hear that?

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Because tripling the costs of attacks would not have fixed the metagaming at all

distant prairie
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FROM DONDI LIVESTREAM

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I've been literally repeating the conversation to you

golden coral
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Well then you either misheard, or someone does not understand how one issue differs from the other

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Becuase that solution is no solution, and does not fix the "run everywhere"

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So it would have solved neither of the problems. People would still run to travel and take the one minute risk of being out of stam/trot to regen stam. And people would have had an even easier time metagaming number of attacks

distant prairie
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You're right man... forget what the creator said in his own words and his explanation

golden coral
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Which is why I have a hard time understanding, because that solution makes no sense

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You... do realize he could be wrong, right?

distant prairie
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You clearly know what he meant more than he did

golden coral
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No but I can understand how the issues work

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And what would and would not fix it

distant prairie
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None of this is my opinion. It's a conversation he had on livestream with people chatting

golden coral
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It's really not that complicated, which is why I'm inclined to think you might be missing context or maybe he phrased it in a way that didn't make much sense

distant prairie
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You realize you're arguing about what was said in a conversation you did not hear right?

golden coral
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The solution to "meta gaming" is to let people attack without stam, this has been mentioned before, and as far as I know, is actually in game now. And the solution to people freely spending their stam with little to no worry, is to make recovery harsh, and no trotting, so people can't just recover stamina whenever they need it.

golden coral
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And arguing that if that is what you heard, then something is wrong

distant prairie
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I've been telling you your wrong

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He was very clear

golden coral
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Well, I could be wrong on what was said, but not how it actually works, so I guess it's possible he said one thing and meant another

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Wouldn't be the first time something was said by a dev and then misunderstood by half the Islecord xD

distant prairie
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Yep must be everyone there for the conversation... couldn't be you

golden coral
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Well, I only have your word so far

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So for now, it's well, "1v1" I guess xD

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But the point is more so that the issues are separate, and the current stam recovery does not at all fix the "metagaming" issue

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So if that was part of the problem that the change was meant to fix, it doesn't

distant prairie
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Maybe that's why you're not hearing what I'm saying because you thing I'm suggesting meta gaming was solved

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I'm not. I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying dondi tried to avoid meta gaming... failed at it.

And he should have just accepted counting swings as part of the strategy

golden coral
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He failed because he didn't implement the actual solution then

golden coral
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Which maybe it was, it just makes no sense to me because it literally doesn't relate to it

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So it's not so much that I think you're lying or anything, more that it... if that's the solution then clearly someone didn't think things through

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Which is why I believe the stam change was for the pace of the game itself, the running around

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The solution to metagaming is to allow all attacks, but at some cost

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So you're never "I can no longer do my attack", that way you can't be "counted out"

distant prairie
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Nerfing recovery does prevent swing counting (or bite counting) because the number is too high for it to be effective

golden coral
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How so?

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It's harder to count 20 stego jabs now? In what manner?

distant prairie
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I didn't say it made it harder

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I said Nobody counts cuz it's too many attacks to make the strategy effective

golden coral
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I am not sure I understand, aside from teno, who got stam nerfed again this time around, most things don't have that many attacks

distant prairie
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The goal was to slow down right?

golden coral
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Stego always had around 20 jabs, aside from that one terrible time it only had 10, and teno was counted out as well, I'm pretty sure

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Yes, slow down the pace of the game, or so I've understood it

distant prairie
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Okay... 2 ways:

Make it so people have to conserve stam for fights that need alot of stam.

Or make stamina recovery bad so they are stuck resting and can run or fight continuously

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The first one doesn't slow as much because they could rest. But it does slow the game down because players would meta game around it

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The meta gaming if he did option 1 would make the player with more stamina at the start have a huge advantage.

So as to not be killed players would stop running as much.

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Dondi didn't want players to meta-game stamina like that though. So he nerfed recovery

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And that's how we got here

golden coral
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Having more stamina and an advantage at the start was already a thing during the old stam though. If you did get jumped at a bad time, you would be in trouble. But you were rarely in that position due to the easy and quick recovery, even on trot. Hence why people ran freely around.

But nothing you mentioned fixes counting attack numbers.

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You can still do that, as effectively, if not more, than before, and just as easily

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So I've no idea why you'd think nobody counts, or how there'd be "too many attacks"? Those things haven't changed much, if at all

distant prairie
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Are you counting swings and running people out of stamina right now?

golden coral
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If I were hunting a teno or stego, I would, yes.

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Unless stego attacks has changed, it's 20 of them, 21 if it regains a tiny bit of stam

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That's... not hard at all to bait and count

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Teno currently has a higher cost on kick/slam, so you can do that there too

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Overall, it's eaiser to run things out of stam now with the recovery timers and nothing on trot

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So you only really made it easier to know when a target is out of stam, you can count carno charges too

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Considering the activation cost, and now the runup required

distant prairie
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You're making a point that doesn't matter. Nobody is arguing you can't meta game at all. The point is counting and baiting 20 is way harder than 6

golden coral
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...

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Where did you get 6 from?

distant prairie
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You're talking about everything that's possible. Like making it impossible was the goal.

The point was to not make it easier to metagame the stamina while they slowed the game down

golden coral
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I mean, you're absolutely correct, but the numbers I mentioned have been common most of the time

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No, I am talking about that stamina changes do not change the metagaming at all

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There is nothing about the stamina changes, the recovery times, or the lack of regen on trotting, that does anything for metagaming when it comes to counting attacks and something being defenseless when out of stam

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It didn't make it neither easier nor harder, because the change does not impact it at all

distant prairie
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The exact number isn't the point. The point is if they chose to increase costs for fighting the number of swings would be way lower.

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Stamina changes don't exist in a vacuum

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There's always a metagame. The point is that dondi chose nerf recovery so as to avoid the inevitable metagaming that would happen if he boosted cost

golden coral
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And if he only boosted cost of attacks, then people would still run around as much

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So that would have solved neither issue then

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Becuase people will risk it if the recovery is quick enough to where it's unlikely you're being caught, unless you're already sprinting while engaged or engaging in combat, at which point you won't because even if your attacks cost nothing, stamina affects bleed and you need it for mobility in combat as well

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So that would have all around only made combat shorter I guess, but not fixed sprinting around, or anything else

distant prairie
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Maybe you'd see prey sprinting and not take advantage. Let them sit on a bush and recover. Nobody else would

golden coral
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More like, never seeing the prey sprinting very often, if at all

distant prairie
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No kidding

golden coral
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Since you know, it's not very likely to actually find people traveling, much less also be in a situation to capitalize on it when your own stam is what it is

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In theory it works, in practice you're not very likely to find people at that low point

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Unless they are dumb enough to sprint while in a hotspot

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My point was more so that the faster and easier recovery is, the more you'll risk it

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Even if you know that being caught means you're done for

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Would you be done for faster/easier with higher attack costs, sure, but if you can recover from empty to full in a minute and a half, and regain while trotting, you're going to have to be in quite the bad spot to not be able to recover enough to fight back

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So you'd risk it, because who wants to travel via trotting xD

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People still run and rest, despite the high recovery after all

distant prairie
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People risk it now knowing they'll be done for like 4 min...

It's two routes to the same end

golden coral
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They do, because the risk of actually being found is very low xD

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Or they are just bored and don't care about the risk, could also be a reason

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So the changes, so far, haven't really done all that much aside from making the game more of an afk sim xD

distant prairie
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So how do you want your game slowed down... sit in a bush for 5min at a time...

Or short bursts of combat and short rests

golden coral
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Personally I like the stam changes, if they came with adjustments to trots/walks and food/water/nutri drain and all

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So I wouldn't feel like I need to run to get somewhere this side of the year

distant prairie
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By comparison making the costs of attacks go up wouldn't slow the game down as much as the current recovery changes

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But I'd argue that's a good thing amd would be a better middle ground than the sitting sim we have now

golden coral
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True, because you'd be able to recover much better and thus run around even more, and fight just as much but in shorter bursts. Not sure current change has done much to change fighting, hotspots and deathmatch seem common enough still.

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Sure, you need to take a longer break, but well, if you've killed the other guys, you can probably do that easily enough

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Guess it'd fit with health recovery xD

distant prairie
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And dondi agreed with that. So we have nerfed recovery and the game is A LOT slower

golden coral
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Eh. Give us good trots, maybe up the walks a bit, adjust drain, and give alts/stego jabs ability to be used when out of stam, and we're good. Then we'd need other deterrents for fighting, but that's down to perks and elders I think

golden coral
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But they succeeded in slowing down the pace overall, just not quite as they should

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Since people still run and rest, rather than travel with trot

scarlet onyx
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The increased walk speed idea is an odd decision that won't work imo. From how hush they are about it makes me think they are also reconsidering something else

distant prairie
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See how you have to keep making adjustments after the fact with the recovery nerf.... nutrients, food drain, water, etc...

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All of these caveats serve to soften the recovery nerf. Amd needs to be adjust over and over for every species

golden coral
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Well, you don't have to, but it would make things work better

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And I don't see why we can't have better trots honestly

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Half of the issue of people running around is because of the trots being so terrible

rigid tulip
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the best solution would have been to remove alt attacks at low stamina and make trotting regen stamina at a significantly slower rate than walking, and if none of that worked then stam regen across the board could be lightly tweaked

golden coral
rigid tulip
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i dont understand how any game could not be meta gamed tbh

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if any competition exists people will try to learn more about it to get better, there is 0 exceptions of that in human history

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the only way to "avoid" it is to delay it by making things mysterious/not allowing testing

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sad they disagree

golden coral
rigid tulip
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yeah, within a year damage thresholds will be memorized by experienced players anyways

steep echo
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#balance-feedback message @supple pagoda I think it's at 45km/h so it's fair for dryos and troodons. Their element is in the trees rather than ground and all that

vague steeple
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I think people are looking at the ghost Dilo damage wrong. I think the ghost Dilos aren’t really supposed to be the cause of damage, they are supposed to represent your altered state’s perception of whats damaging you, because the damage is actually being caused by something else, the poison, the environment, yourself, etc.

If anything, hiding in/near water, trees, etc that prevent the ghosts from interacting with you could then be seen as an exploit to evade what should technically be a reasonably consistent DoT attack because the game can’t figure out how to adapt its hallucinations to the environment to keep the DoT tick being applied. The game should switch to pteras when in trees, water based predators when in/near bodies of water, so that the DoT can continue to be applied.

thin mantle
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That would be lame

dusky surge
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Agreed, how it is now is fine

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Given the fact your dinosaur can literally, physically fight off the venom, we don’t need to look to deep into them using water

umbral solar
vague steeple
umbral solar
proud plover
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@cunning merlin Herra gets decent stamina if you got 3x triple dots for your diet

golden coral
coral stratus
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when u kill the hallucinations, it deals u some bit damage

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@wispy vessel if they didnt do any damage, the venom its self would be useless. AS you can still figh and kill the dilo and easily recognize the AI from the actuall Player.

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the only thing i think about the dilo is that the venom during the day should be much harder to apply and that you would need to regain the Hallucination spawns via biting the prey, and during the night (as intended for dilo to hunt) the Abbility bar would regenerate like it does rn.

golden coral
alpine sleet
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anyone understands why they nerfed teno stam to this point? its not even a joke at this point

thin mantle
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because it was approaching a good state

coarse blaze
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Can't wait for diablo to get nerfed into the ground month 1 TI_Succ

golden coral
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@weary glen Did it ever occur to you that realistic mechanics don't always make for a good game? Because if you want to use that argument, we'd have to redo the entire game and every mechanic.

weary glen
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Oh I didn't know that u re a game dev. Yes redo some things

thin mantle
golden coral
thin mantle
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There's a reason balancing is a thing that exists

golden coral
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So your argument is... entirely useless. You can't go "but venom works like this irl" and complain about people, when we also have a whole bunch of other things that don't work like irl

weary glen
golden coral
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So it's perfectly fine to say that dilo venom should not work like irl venom

thin mantle
# weary glen If...

You're the one drawing comparisons between dilo and snakes irl capable of killing elephants with a single bite not me

golden coral
# weary glen If...

You... do realize the point right? You want the venom to be realistic, then that's what you'd get. That is how venom work for animals, you get bit, you die, end of story.

weary glen
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Yes. And u say we can't do realism for balance. So, there isn't realism cause dilos don't one tap trike

golden coral
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Which is obviously not good for balance or good for the fun in the game

thin mantle
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Nobody would even enjoy dilo if it did that

thin mantle
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Like a carno biting into the ribs of a teno might honestly be inescapably fatal

golden coral
thin mantle
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But it still takes several to actually kill it in game because if everything died in one hit the game would be agonizing

weary glen
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I won't even keep arguing with kids, have a nice day

golden coral
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Does it work like that irl, no. Is this irl, no.

thin mantle
golden coral
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Have a good day, maybe next time you'll do better

weary glen
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Maybe sometime u ll start using your brain better. Your whole points support my argument without even you realizing.

thin mantle
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Please describe how

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I'd love to know why

golden coral
thin mantle
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I just wanna know how I undermined my own argument

golden coral
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Because the way it's written, it seems like you're upset that people argue that we should not apply realism for balance if it doesn't make for good balance/fun

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But I guess it is possible he was trying to say that it's fine that dilo venom goes away if the dilo dies, if in a bit of a backwards manner or something

golden coral
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in any case, dilo, especially the venom, seem quite overtuned and not really fun to deal with, even if you kill the dilo or escape. So some work on that is most likely needed to make the encounter feel better.

weary glen
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It's just crazy with how much entitlement u speak, proposing to destroy even the most logical and real mechanism of venom. Also stop distorting my words. Ofc I support realism as much it's possible for a good gameplay. Dondi is mostly good on balancing proposals. I wouldn't touch a game with your balancing nightmare Eric.

golden coral
# weary glen It's just crazy with how much entitlement u speak, proposing to destroy even the...

Entitlement? What are you even on about? I am proposing that since the game is already not very realistic, it's perfectly fine that venom also isn't realistic, like how dilo has venom in the first place. You support something that would make for a terrible balance and very unfun game if you truly want full realism. But it's funny that you think I would balance badly when I've not even made any suggestions that you can judge. But if your balancing is based on realism, then you would do way worse than I could ever do. And again, things would have to change around. Dilo irl did not have venom. Most playables do not work like they would irl. Let's start there shall we. But since our dilo isn't realistic, nor does its venom have to be, it's really that simple.

keen plover
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Tbh this is pointless. Dilo is clearly overtuned & wasn't properly tested. As shown by how easy it is to counter lol

golden coral
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More of the good old "just use terrain" xD

keen plover
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It was definitely only tested on a flat dev level

golden coral
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And when we're finally getting a better pounce at that

keen plover
golden coral
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So much fun and engagement, so very interactive and skill based xD

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At least the hallucinations have potential, they just need to be tuned and the venom lasting so long needs to go. Oh and the juvies need to not be able to envenomate larger things, scaling for venom please.

tidal wren
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what about the spawning of turtles and crabs? I'm here alone in the marsh and the coast is empty, nothing anywhere, I'm getting hungry.

golden coral
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AI spawns seem a little off currently, I think they spawn where people are, so look for a hotspot

tidal wren
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@golden coral and couldn't there always be at least a couple of these AIs globally? because I've been all over the beach and absolutely nothing, I've looked elsewhere, another unfortunate herrera was running on the beach and then also committed suicide

cunning merlin
odd veldt
halcyon elk
vale tangle
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@tranquil lark
#balance-feedback message

I agree with most of your assessment but I do think Dilos clones need to deal damage. Don't forget that the dilo clones are judt a representation of the venom itself, in reality its essentially DoT. I do think Dilo needs to reapply the venom more often so that it's at more of a risk, and while I do believe it draining stam could be powerful, it leaves too much room for griefing from dilo players. Damage is by far better for both the dilo and whatever it is hunting it just needs to be more proactive in the hunt in my opinion.

rigid tulip
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The fog is unironically a huge problem in the daytime in any hotspot. Ur a sitting duck for 10 minutes to anything that can see you. Dilos venom should ideally effect your fight with it, not your general survivability for the near future, even after you kill it. It should instead limit night vision.

keen wing
halcyon granite
vale tangle
# halcyon granite but why clones need to do dmg tho, they visually impair you, you cant smell you ...

I do think dilo needs to be more proactive with its venom, however if the clones don't do damage there is really no point in even having them, and good positioning basically negates the venomws entire effects if you corner yourself. The clones need to do damage for dilo to remain relevant but also scary. It's main issue right now is once it's venom activates it's hunt becomes very leisurely, it should be doing more to keep such potent venom continuously potent, such as reapplying it in some way.

Personally I wouldn't do it after a certain amount of clones because then people can just count however many clones have spawned then they know to expect the real dilo, which the whole point of the clones was to make it disorienting to manage the clones as well as the dilo itself

halcyon granite
indigo whale
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did herrera jump had any tweeks...

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it feels bit different

tranquil lark
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yes yes i understand, you make purple, something dies ez food ez game, you approve, cuz ur comfy, i get it.

i just dont approve, Illusions are not real, thus it should never deal hp damage, but stamina damage. And if ur gonna say that its the venom killing me then why as soon as i jump on a high object i dont die to the venom anymore :^) ?

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cuz its naruto bs thats why

dusky surge
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stam damage is not a solution

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also, the hallucinations are a visual representation of the venom's effects on the body

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when they bite you, that's the venom taking effect

tranquil lark
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k lets go with what ur saying now

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why do i survive and take 0 damage when i jump on a fence?

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i got venom in me no?

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👀

dusky surge
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because it's a video game

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lol

tranquil lark
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wauw u went from realism to video game rq there boss

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new record

dusky surge
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i literally never quoted realism

tranquil lark
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have a wonderful day

dusky surge
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i could give a rats ass about realism lol

tranquil lark
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il tell you why, cuz u enjoy killing people with it

dusky surge
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I don't play dilo

tranquil lark
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you dont play at all by the sounds of it, or a croc

dusky surge
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I've been playing teno, herrera, dryo and omni

tranquil lark
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Dilo is overtuned as soon as it gets its hallucination going

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Dilo itself is perfect tho , its JUST that ability is bonkers

dusky surge
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I agree, but I blame that more on the fact that venom can last for a literal eternity

tranquil lark
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yes.. it can deal 338% hp dmg to a omni with clones alone not even biting from 1 session of clones

dusky surge
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And the fact that dilo has zero insentive to engage once venom is applied, making the entire fight just him running and spamming RMB

tranquil lark
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yep

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not even running, u can stam regen 20 meters up ahead

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3 ceras all purple, im just vibin and spamming every 30 sec

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😴 and people like the path of least resistance so dilo is gonna be very popular till they fix that

dusky surge
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if venom didn't last so long, and dilo actually needed to engage its prey, it'd be fine

tranquil lark
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100%

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the whole issue is this

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pretty much every server atm ^ just replace the orange man with dilos

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if the mayority of your playerbase picks something , like 80% of the server is dilo? then u know its broken, even when omni was broken a while ago (still is btw just not on dilo) , there was alot of omni's and now i dont see those borks anymore anywhere

vale tangle
dusky surge
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i honestly like hallucinations as they stand, because you can avoid/destroy them. The issue is HOW LONG you need to keep doing this to actually survive

tranquil lark
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id say 30 sec green , and then in those 30 sec chance to make purple and let purple stay 1 minute

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thats 6 clones + 2 passive 8 clones... quite decent..

vale tangle
tranquil lark
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you cant smell at all, the devs even took your directional smell away so u cannot retreat to something u know out of mind to be a good retreat point

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cant smell the dilo if u made it bleed

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its so OP in every single way, and dont get me started on how the weather seems to change to foggy or something dark as soon a dilo gets a bite in on someone

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that last one idk for sure, but it sure feels like the weather is with the dilo somehow

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only counter: dont get bit elsewhere then your tail / tailtip

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and i must say in the Dilo's defense:(probably the only point im gonna make) it has trouble hitting things (WICH SHOULD STAY THAT WAY BTW, NICE TRADEOFF FOR POISON)

vale tangle
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If they just decreased the duration of stage 3 and made the dilo need to be more proactive in the hunt it would be fine
Along with other fine tuning, like for some reason baby dilos can apply venom which is ridiculous, and the venom lasts so long after the dilo dies its a nuisance

tranquil lark
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I never seen stage 3 i think

vale tangle
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Unofficial servers judt turn off dilo spawns ar this point

tranquil lark
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green -> purple -> ???

vale tangle
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Purple is stage 3

tranquil lark
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tf then what is stage 1

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i just know green -> purple

vale tangle
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Green judt means the target is envomated, stage 2 is also green but the fog is closer

dusky surge
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green is stage 1, purple is stage 2, deep purple is stage 3

tranquil lark
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oh i couldnt tell as the omni nor the dilo

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i figured 2 stages

vale tangle
tranquil lark
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green = useless
purple = jackpot

dusky surge
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its the same as troodon in that regard

tranquil lark
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dont get me started on troodons

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why do those little beautifull creatures get 30 sec ... have to activate it 3x... and then risk their life engaging in battle

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then dilo walks in , sup guys , 3 min , ez

dusky surge
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its so funny that troodon's venom is so much more difficult to utilise and maintain, as well as far more risky, than the creature around 12x its size

tranquil lark
#

YES

#

this thing is a one shot, but is expected to engage constantly

#

dilo can tank, but can just drink a cocktail 30 meters up ahead?

dusky surge
#

i am a troodon fan, i love troodon, i still pick it over dilo every day of the week, but god damn the discrepancy in their venom is night and day

tranquil lark
#

excuse my japanese but.. NANI?

tranquil lark
#

but i 100% agree with that, and it triggers me aswell

#

if anything it should be the reverse

dusky surge
#

agreed, troodon should be potent as hell

tranquil lark
#

irl smaller is more poisonous no? or did i hit my head on a rock during class

dusky surge
#

smaller isn't always more venomous, but smaller creatures will tend to adapt more potent venom

tranquil lark
#

that, like ive been taught that if its poisonous and small, then i should be extra extra careful

#

due to potency

#

meanwhile troodon doesnt even rlly have poison, its just your pounces that get enhanced, and newsflash: they broke pounce on raptors, AGAIN

#

it was rlly good, all they had to fix is bucking

#

not that it matters, all they do is make sure we will never use the mechanic to begin with, we can still run and bite things np

#

troodons , i dont even see them

#

poor little thingies

dusky surge
#

also, fun fact about troodon and dilo

troodon doesn't have venom until it's 65% grown because it'd be too frustrating to be constantly envenomated by a respawning juvi troodon

which is why dilo has the ability to envenomate full adults for 5 minutes as a freshspawn

tranquil lark
#

yes... i saw a video of someone being chased by 3 adults, and like a whole army of tiny ones, and all of them were like kamikaze missiles, just tryna get the poison going....

#

raptor chased by dilo army i think was called

#

but you can see what you are currently explaining , on video

#

and how stupid it looks

stark spear
#

cera is ASS

#

like i dont play it that often which is fair enough but come on hes supposed to be the brawler bully and literally gets bullied by most of the carnivores in this game.

#

cera vs 2 dilo, cera loses

#

2 cera vs 1 carno, cera loses

#

in fact ive killed full grown ceras as a lone full grown dilo

earnest salmon
# stark spear cera is ASS

Cera isn't a Hunter, he's a bad hunter. If you're not fighthing around corpses, you're doing it wrong.

halcyon elk
stable quest
# stark spear cera vs 2 dilo, cera loses

Me and another cera won against 6-7 dilos because we used a body to our advantage. If you haven't tried to use bodies definitely try now I promise you'll have a much easier time.

tall bronze
grizzled ferry
#

Thoughts on making dilo slower? Not a big speed nerf but at least make it so Omni is faster

golden coral
grizzled ferry
#

And yes Omni has better agility but dilo also has good agility. I’ve been killing omnis left and right and as an Omni main it sucks lol if they run I catch them and kill them and if they fight back I do more damage and kill them. I’ve yet to die to an Omni

golden coral
grizzled ferry
golden coral
golden coral
grizzled ferry
golden coral
#

Have you died a lot on omni vs dilo?

grizzled ferry
#

But just looking at raw playing ability dilo is really just the better choice sadly

grizzled ferry
#

And it was because it was just so much faster

#

And it was night

golden coral
#

Out of? One time tells me little, but I think you can see where I'm going with it, are you good enough on omni to handle it, others could be too

grizzled ferry
#

During the day I would’ve had a better chance

golden coral
#

... Well yeah, if it was at night, I can see that going terribly for you compared to a dilo

#

That kind of feels like how it should go honestly

#

At night, find a nice rock as omni, and chill xD

grizzled ferry
#

I think the dilo should be stronger just it shouldn’t be faster

golden coral
#

But it does sound like you could handle yourself plenty well

#

So I'd rather look at the venom and all that if dilo speed isn't stupidly high

grizzled ferry
#

I could lol but it was night and I was like purple stage venom so that didn’t help

#

I was trying to find the dam but it cought up to me and just spam but my tail

golden coral
#

I was talking more so overall, that one time sounds like it went like it should, dilo at night time is pretty much a done deal

#

If you were also badly envenomed, I'm more surprised you lasted as long as it sounds like you did

grizzled ferry
#

Yeah I was so close to making it but the clones f’d me up

#

At night the only thing I was able to kill dilos as was carno and teno

golden coral
#

I think that sounds fine, honestly

#

So yeah, I'm not inherently against your suggestion, but I find the venom more problematic than the speed of the dilo, at least for now

grizzled ferry
#

I just think that nerfing its speed slightly would barely make a difference to how strong they are. But it would help omnis a lost more when not in a group

#

And yes the venom definitely needs some tweaking

#

I think that nerfing the speed at which clones can be spawned would help

golden coral
#

Could maybe nerf the speed but still keep it faster than omni?

#

Not sure how big the difference between them is

grizzled ferry
#

Even making it the same speed would be better

golden coral
#

How big is the current difference?

grizzled ferry
#

47?

#

I think is Omnis speed

cosmic pelican
golden coral
cosmic pelican
#

Np ^^

grizzled ferry
golden coral
grizzled ferry
#

Like carno is heavier but is the fastest because it is built for speed

golden coral
#

I'm not sure that omni is neccesarily built for speed any more than dilo is. If it was agility, it makes more sense and omni is more agile than dilo so.

#

It also depends a bit on how they work and attack and all, dilo might require more speed so it can get in, hit you, and get out. Dilo doesn't really want to stay right next to you for too long, while omni with pounce kind of does, if that makes sense?

#

And even slowing dilo a bit but letting it be faster than omni would help, no? Could keep omni speed, put dilo at 47.0 - 47.1 or so

olive zinc
#

I imagine the Dilo is fast because it's a hit and run type dino.

#

They balance it out by not giving it a jump ability.

#

This is ignoring their venom mechanic, which may or may not need tuning.

scarlet onyx
#

Hit and run? More like hit and take a nap with your finger on rmb lmao.

#

I still dont think it needs to be that fast regardless of venom tweaks. It could do just fine with 46 you wouldn't notice a difference and it can't just tailride things to death.

grizzled ferry
latent kraken
#

20 million bucks fix ur game

frail bobcat
latent kraken
frail bobcat
dusky surge
#

@winter verge it’s too much of a stam nerf imho. They tripled the cost of teno’s main combative moves, and that’s just nuts

#

Going from 2% on kick and 3% on slam to 6% on kick and 8% on slam is just insanity, especially since the latter values are made for Spiro stam.

winter verge
dusky surge
#

I would’ve gone for 3-4% on kick and 5-6% on slam

#

Making them cost more is fine, but not to this degree

#

Especially with animals like dilo, who literally spawn things you have to hit or you take damage.

#

I hope they can adjust it (without another arbitrary nerf to tenonto please stop giving it one nerf per update)

distant torrent
#

I wouldn’t even agree with that cost for the kick. if its hitbox was bigger? sure. but not with how small it is right now where your ass needs to be literally fused with whatever your target is to hit it

keen plover
#

2% kick & 3% slam is perfect for Teno

dusky surge
keen plover
#

idk what the intentions are since it didn't make it to the patchnotes

cobalt dagger
#

@median hazel
Hi!
I agree that body-camping is awful, and I've had stegos show up and body-camp something that was long dead before they ever got there just to make me starve.
It is toxic, to just prevent people from eating and effectively kill them, for fun.
But stegos are not the only ones that kill for fun- Pretty much everything in this game kills for fun. Like, more than stegos killing me, my baby cera has been killed by all sorts of carnis (cera, carno, raptor, troodon) that wait next to a corpse specifically to kill the babies that run up to try and eat. The have a GIANT corpse next to them or even several from other juvies that met the same fate, yet they still kill me.

If we introduce a mechanic that stops stegos from 'killing for fun' even if their method is body-camping (kinda their only viable method to kill for fun) we should stop other creatures from 'killing for fun' too.

I am not sure that would be good though since, SO many players literally play because they want to kill for fun. And, if you introduce some mechanic preventing it, the mechanic could be abused against them somehow, depending on what is introduced.

winter verge
peak seal
#

Questions, did they end up fixing bucking now so it actually drains Stam?

cosmic pelican
peak seal
#

Damn so they did fix it. Sad...

halcyon elk
peak seal
#

Well with the new changes to pounce and how you have to be pretty much on the side to successfully pounce on them, I guess that kinda made it more balanced in a way

thin mantle
#

Yeah it actually feeds into Omni using numbers and strategy to be successful instead of numbers just being a conventional stat stacking method like every other creature

#

Now it integrates into the playstyle

peak seal
#

Is that for my opinion or for bucking to be fixed?

thin mantle
#

Like bucking being fixed is the backbone of omni working

#

If it’s not sufficiently punishing then there’s no reason to get good at the animal or form groups

peak seal
#

Fair

distant prairie
#

That makes zero sense. Bucking and pounce angle changes basically make Omni pounce useless.

But judging by this discord players are perfectly fine with gimping every playable they don't personally use so they never die to it.

dusky surge
#

i play omni a lot, i prefer it now by a great deal compared to its godlike state last patch

#

i like being able to die to omnis, because it adds another risk, but when omni just slaughters you for existing, it's less fun

golden coral
coarse blaze
#

I'm so glad face/rear pouncing can't be exploited for the moment. It makes no sense to jump from the back of something and seamlessly land onto it's side.

frail bobcat
#

no pouncing a pachy in the face and no pouncing a teno in the back for example

zenith egret
#

We have killed with one Dilo sub a carno full adult just with damage from clone. Its that ok ? Kill somoene like a sniper in call of duty in a bush.

rigid tulip
#

Imo tail shouldnt count towards the pounce cancel. Its a grappling animal, when you get behind something hypothetically the raptor could move across the body to get to the side, whereas from the front that isn’t possible due to the face being there to stop you.

golden coral
rigid tulip
#

I think the increased pounce precision is a good step in the right direction but with current desync and the current ecosystem it just bullies even good omni players out of playing. Just not worth jt

golden coral
#

So maybe it's more of a struggle for others, but I've never struggled with either of the playables, so I do not see what makes them "hard" at all. You're fast, agile, can avoid pretty much any attack, and your main mechanic is no more difficult to use than any bite, if anything it's easier because it's safer in some ways.

rigid tulip
#

I would have preferred if pounce was given an aim system like herrera, and missed pounce punishes were re-added, and bucking was buffed.

rigid tulip
golden coral
#

Yes, so do I

#

There's no "skill" to omni/troodon, they're mindlessly easy to use

#

Maybe I'm just naturally good at them, but I've never struggled to land my attacks, or juke, or anything

rigid tulip
#

Harder than carno always was before this recent update

golden coral
#

No, not at all. Carno was way harder, due to less agility

#

The better your agility is, the easier your playable is, at least for me

rigid tulip
#

You ran at dinos your size and pressed right click and half their hp was gone

golden coral
#

Yes but hitting them was way harder

#

It's not about the power when you hit, it's how easy it is to hit/avoid being hit

rigid tulip
#

Depends on what update you mean ig. I mean carno in the era of cera being added to the last patch we had.

golden coral
#

Stego is really powerful, but also have very clunky attacks and can't "juke" to save it's life

#

So you have to aim much better and be much more positioned, while with an omni, you can adjust course on the go

#

I miss as stego = big punishment. I miss as omni = I just keep going, adjust and hit the next second

rigid tulip
golden coral
#

In general, the better you can adjust your playable, the easier it is

golden coral
rigid tulip
golden coral
#

My entire point is that omni/troodon, due to being so fast and agile, are very easy to use

golden coral
#

Doing massive damage but landing an attack once in a blue moon is not a positive

rigid tulip
#

An omni has to make no major mistakes for like 10 pounces whilst a carno lands one and his job is already halfway done

golden coral
#

While being able to keep up the attacks and pressure is far more useful

#

True, but it's also so easy to avoid mistakes as omni

rigid tulip
#

I dont mean carno rn. I think carno rn is way more high skill than it used to be and I personally love to play it

golden coral
#

Which also comes down to the speed and agility, a playable that has a very high responsiveness is easier to use, at least for me

rigid tulip
golden coral
#

I'm not saying this goes for everyone, just so we're clear

#

But to me, I can pick up omni/troodon and do better with no practice than I can do with most of the others with practice

rigid tulip
#

I think it’s because i view skill required as based off of reward given for success and punishment given for mistake

golden coral
#

Maybe it's because I mained teno and thus got used to higher requirements

rigid tulip
#

Which omni has some of the worst in both departments when its balanced

golden coral
#

Since skill is just a matter of how difficult doing something is

#

No matter if there's a reward, or a punishment for failure

#

You could have a very difficult bridge to cross, but the drop is only 1 m, or another one, that's very easy to cross, but the drop is 10 m.

#

Maybe not the best example but I think you can see what I mean

rigid tulip
#

To me skill links to punishment/reward because im assessing how much effort it takes to get a reward + what size the reward is. And how much of a mistake it takes to get punishment + the size of that punishment.

golden coral
#

Punishment and reward is one thing, but that does not correlate to skill to me, it makes little sense that it would

rigid tulip
#

I say omni used to be high skill bc it took many pounces (though easy) without mistake to get a large dino to bleed out. And a mistake would typically cost at least 1/3 of ur hp or your instant death at max.

golden coral
#

Same with how there's a difference between hard and difficult, simple and easy

#

Yeah, I do get your point, I just measure the difficulty of pounce itself

rigid tulip
#

I agree in terms of how easy it is to land each ability of dinos, pounce is easy

golden coral
#

If I can land 90% of them and avoid damage with little planning behind, then I can't see much "skill" involved

rigid tulip
#

But imo it needs to be relatively easy because omni is so flimsy

golden coral
#

Eh, that kind of comes down to the whole "pack hunter" thing I think, and honestly a bit of power in relation to growth times

rigid tulip
#

High reward things like carno charge should take more setup and precision

#

Like we have now

golden coral
#

Not sure I think they did carno well, it's a bit odd and I'm not sure why they didn't just limit the threshold instead of a very strange "run up"

rigid tulip
#

And troodon imo is just genuinely the hardest dino in the entire game and its not even close considering how one mistake means death (typically desync, not even ur mistake). And its impossible to land pounces on any incline/decline due to ur small size and strange horizontal leap pounce.

golden coral
#

Haven't really tested much, I'm happy with herrera for now (though I wish it could traverse trees a lot better)

rigid tulip
#

I agree

golden coral
rigid tulip
#

A huge problem is that you cant pounce close range anymore. You need like nearly a meter of distance before ur right click works

golden coral
#

That a new change?

rigid tulip
#

My friend and i 1v2d an adult carno as troodons in update 6 and we both died to one juvi dilo a day or two ago as troodons

golden coral
#

Cause I don't recall that being neccesary when I played, but it was a few patches ago after all

rigid tulip
#

We just cant land pounces

rigid tulip
golden coral
#

Hm, yeah that seems a bit odd

#

Wonder if it's some funny ghost hitbox now due to the pounce hitreg changes

rigid tulip
#

It effects troo much more than omni. I think front/back pounce blocks can work out for omni if tweaked around that

#

It might not even be the pounce changes idk

golden coral
#

To be fair, I think troodon should just pass on the pounces really

#

Just make bite do venom and have it increase the more you get bitten, and just have troodons swarm the target

#

This whole "minigame" back and forth seems like it'd fit better with dilo if anything, which would tie in better with the clones being distractions as well

rigid tulip
#

I agree bite should def do venom

golden coral
#

Would also help mitigate troodon squishiness if it can just keep going all the time

solid imp
#

Isn't "venom finalization" still not done yet?

#

If it has been done then it hasn't helped its viability at all

#

I see more hypsis than troodons

dusky surge
#

@rigid tulip teno's tailslam now has a specific CC resist meaning it is now extremely adept at charge counter

rigid tulip
#

can it at least have to hit in order to work?

#

that would be great

dusky surge
#

its essentially "armoured" throughout the entire animation

rigid tulip
#

I agree it should favor teno but I think it should only be armored maybe like when the tail is already halfway down. That being said tenos stam nerfs need to be reverted and I would also be fine with a speed up on the tail slam animation or the kick animation

dusky surge
rigid tulip
#

Yeah i just fought a teno again. Never thought I would say this but carno v teno takes much more skill from the carno now and its not even close.

#

What a wild sentence

dusky surge
#

it is nice

#

you should generally try to use 2 carnos

rigid tulip
#

Playing carno feels like slavery to the resource meters

dusky surge
#

@velvet carbon hypsi is intended to be a climber, and will be getting climbing now that herrera has been implemented

unborn iris
#

The hitboxes are a little weird for pounce right now, especially on the smaller half of the roster, but needing to hit the sides with a pounce is a pretty necessary thing. Pounce needs that counterplay aside from just hugging a rock, water, or a tree. Hope they can tweak it some where you can actually hit the sides, though.

scarlet onyx
#

@alpine plover it really doesn't need enough stamina to fight packs alone imo lmao. I bet you survived that carno attack too, so the game is doing its job. Teno doesn't need 20-30 slams like before, it just doesn't

rigid tulip
#

i legitamately dont think a teno can ever lose a 1v1 to a carno anymore if they are of similar skill

alpine plover
# scarlet onyx <@456226577798135808> it really doesn't need enough stamina to fight packs alone...

yeah i agree with you but i'm not asking for an overly exaggerated stam buff, just minor 😭 fighting one carno shouldn't be eating my stam like that like god forbid i survive 2, it should hold its own against 2 at max its whole kit is defence. imo teno felt like the most complete dino in the roster, its stam aligned perfectly with the changes it just needed a Little nerf to the stam but not to this extent

rigid tulip
#

that being said teno is still not even scary and feels underwhelming to play and unfair to play against as a carno because of the ridiculous immunity to charge

#

I think it was absolutely perfect when teno could stop carno charges with its tail and kick it down to low hp in one go. But carno could also land a huge charge if he caught teno by surprise or juked the tailslam. Now carno can do neither and teno feels weaker to use still.

distant torrent
#

at this point I genuinely don’t think they can have it to where it used to be where teno can stop a carno charge with good timing because of the servers being so bad

#

teno’s absurd stam cost and kick hitbox along with kick doing less than a cera’s charge bite and slam still pathetically doing less damage than a carno bite definitely plays a lot into making it feel weak to use

#

I’m not saying it should be an undefeatable god, but all of those little things do mesh together to make it feel very underwhelming lol

#

the previous stam cost kinda made up for all of that but now all of those problems are showing even more with this current stam cost

hollow canyon
#

Teno should not be 1v2ing Carnos, like ever, if it does that it means something is wrong balancewise

distant torrent
#

nah it’s fine since carno has all power to choose the fight and has the power on when to end it with fleeing when things go south. teno doesn’t have the luxury of denying the fight by simply just speeding away

hollow canyon
#

Carno is larger and takes longer to grow and has much higher maintenance, if TWO of them are losing to a single Tenonto that means that either Carno is really bad or Tenonto is really overpowered... and Tenonto is not overpowered at all right now

hollow canyon
#

Teno is a much better in an aquatic environment and can utilise it to escape, if it's caught strolling through a plain there should be no scenario where it survives a 1v2 against Carnos

#

unless Carnos dc

distant torrent
#

just because something is about 200 kg heavier and takes slightly longer to grow doesn’t mean it should completely invalidate something that doesn’t even have a chance to outrun it

hollow canyon
#

no

#

not a single Carno

#

we're talking about TWO Carnos

#

TWO Carnos, "TWO" being the key word here

distant torrent
#

not even two carnos should invalidate it

hollow canyon
#

they aren't invalidating it by killing it 2v1 in their best environment

#

what a ridiculous argument

#

Tenontos can pack up to much higher numbers than Carnos, they grow faster, are easier to grow, easier to maintain are better in water, perform better in enclosed areas due to having a whole arsenal of CC, the idea that a single Tenonto should be surviving 1v2 against two Carnos in the plains is absurd

tropic horizon
#

Which I despise but it is what it is atm

tropic horizon
rigid tulip
tropic horizon
rigid tulip
#

committing is genuinely stupid ever

#

always*

tropic horizon
#

It isn’t invincible and missing it means you’ve lost nearly ten percent of your stamina which currently is pretty much a death sentence

rigid tulip
#

as the carno when u commit to a charge on a teno when it sees you already your losing

tropic horizon
#

I just don’t like the matchup anymore it feels awful for both sides

rigid tulip
#

it will use its cc immune slam, and even if it misses it will just kick afterwards and stun you, make you bleed and it will run you down since carno takes half its stam bar for one knockdown and teno trots faster

tropic horizon
#

I’d like the matchup way more if carno didn’t have its dumb instant charge and teno didn’t get a free immune to cc button

rigid tulip
#

your only option as carno is to bite which is fine if it was built for biting at all instead of it being balanced on just charging and insta nuking opponents hp for the past over a year

rigid tulip
tropic horizon
#

I just miss when the fight felt fun

cobalt dagger
# rigid tulip i legitamately dont think a teno can ever lose a 1v1 to a carno anymore if they ...

Oh they can! You gotta bait the hits out of the teno. Carno's better acceleration and such now allows them to do this quite well. Try running up to the teno like you wanna charge, and then stop RIGHT outside of the tail hit range (do a sharp turn to help you brake.) Trot and z-walk around outside of the range of the teno, weave in and out of it's range. If it goes for claw swipes on you, I learned just last night that claw swipes from any direction take little bits of stamina out of the teno.

rigid tulip
#

i mean sure but a good teno will z walk and never tail slam since its the hardest attack to hit in the game

cobalt dagger
#

Because of how fast carno can charge now, if you aren't really going to charge, teno can't afford to think 'maybe he won't charge me' there's no time.

cobalt dagger
rigid tulip
#

Idk i would have to try it

cobalt dagger
#

The kick hitbox is small

#

If they stop even trying to tail slam, do some tail nips.

rigid tulip
cobalt dagger
#

Do a LOT of 'fake' charges' and then occasionally try a real one

golden coral
rigid tulip
#

i see your point with bites however

rigid tulip
#

at which point you will get trotted down

#

i can see trying fake bites but fake charges arent worth anymore

cobalt dagger
# golden coral But you need the run up to be effective, so if you're not far enough away, the t...

You wanna be in a sweetspot where you are kinda far away but not a million miles away, no matter how far away you are though you can always choose to stop outside of the range.

Even if you are a long way away, if teno tail-slams too early then you can bite or charge. If they do it too late, they also mess up. They gotta get it 'just right' which means right-clicking just before you enter their tail range due to human reaction time-server reaction time-ping compensation- the buttons registering - ect

scarlet onyx
cobalt dagger
golden coral
rigid tulip
#

every charge bait will take probably at least 5% of your stam

golden coral
#

But I just wanted to point out that since there's no "point blank" charge anymore, carno is much less of a threat

cobalt dagger
#

Every missed tailslam takes 8%.

#

of the teno's

rigid tulip
#

every charge (if you intend to guarantee a knock down) takes around half your stam

#

which is just WILD

cobalt dagger
rigid tulip
#

yeah it has to be charging already for a few seconds before its charge really does anything

#

so you have to be burning stam for multiple seconds to attempt a charge

#

typically at least 1/3 of your stam per charge

cobalt dagger
rigid tulip
#

which is horrible

rigid tulip
cobalt dagger
#

This may be true, I think I've noticed that.

rigid tulip
#

sometimes i feel like its old charge other times i feel like i use half my stam and dont get a knock down

golden coral
cobalt dagger
#

I still believe that baiting the teno is the way to go though, and baiting anything out of it at all is worth while. You can often bait them a bit even just trotting outside their range, if things go hairy run away a bit.

golden coral
#

Though there is apparently a way around the run up

cobalt dagger
#

Teno does not get that luxury, they cannot outrun you when things go bad for them.

golden coral
cobalt dagger
#

Howveer if you're trotting around their range you aren't taking stamina.

golden coral
#

But if you're that close, they can attempt an attack

cobalt dagger
#

It takes MORE SKILL to bait a SKILLED TENO.

golden coral
#

Be it claw or a turn kick, which will spell bad news for you

cobalt dagger
#

Yes, which will take stamin from them. Be ready for it and run off, your goal is to make them try and be ready to dodge.

golden coral
#

Maybe we should give it a few rounds when I'm back home and can play!

cobalt dagger
#

It spells bad news for you IF they hit.

I would except I am really bad with carno, if we switch places I'll loose regardless if I am the teno or the carno

golden coral
#

If you're just around, baiting, the teno can just attempt to leave to be fair

cobalt dagger
#

So I am not a good example, but I know people who might be better examples than I.

golden coral
#

Same, but going by my own experience, you don't handle a "bait" carno the same way you handle a charging one

cobalt dagger
cobalt dagger
#

Every time.

#

Now, I don't have two people of entirely equal skill.

#

If I could clone myself and fight myself as teno and carno then that'd work.

golden coral
cobalt dagger
#

You're goal isn't to fully land the charge

#

It's to bait.

golden coral
#

Yes, but if I move, I know you can't turn and charge

#

So then I know you can't charge, hence your bait no longer is half as threatening

cobalt dagger
#

Then it's a guessing game of who will move where. Will the teno go to the right? Go to the left, his head is there now. There's risk in moving to the side. I know because vs good carnos, I turn to the side as teno, and they get me. Do I scratch them? Yeah, but that takes some stam, and trading a tail-scratch for a head-bite is a bad trade.

golden coral
#

To be fair, it also makes sense that the carno "side" is better, teno is harder to pull off

golden coral
cobalt dagger
#

I mean from what I saw the skilled player won ether way, between me and 2 others at the time, 4 if you include my partner who plays with me sometimes

golden coral
#

Not like dodging a charge was ever hard, at least not when carno can't turn while charging

cobalt dagger
cobalt dagger
golden coral
#

If you wait that long, you don't get the knockdown

cobalt dagger
#

That way you can fully turn until the right time.

AH so that is what they fixed?

golden coral
#

Yes, you need to run for like 2 seconds

#

In charge mode

cobalt dagger
#

As in, CHARGE for two seconds- Yeah

#

To be honest I appreciate that change, otherwise I don't know how cera would stand a change.

golden coral
#

And while you can still charge point blank, you only get the damage, and less as well I believe

cobalt dagger
#

chance*

golden coral
#

So you can still threaten, and bait, but not as much

golden coral
cobalt dagger
#

True but I still think good players can bait good tenos. We'd need to somehow get someone of equal skill fight each other to really know.

#

Right now all I've seen is 'the good player wins both sides' when the same players fight but just switch places.

#

And the way the carno does it is 'dance' around the teno and bait.

rigid tulip
cobalt dagger
#

The teno's best chance is to play aggressive and forward, to try and land a hit, but if you're not good and you miss, or mess up, you're out of luck.

golden coral
scarlet onyx
#

Yeah there is no baiting. Teno can claw attack infinitely now and it's extremely crippling

rigid tulip
#

I ran because I had no choice, if the teno was good he would trot me down so I aimed to book it and find a hiding spot. I sat down on like 25-30 bleed and still bled out

golden coral
cobalt dagger
rigid tulip
#

he got the tailslam combo from his immunity, he literally pressed the button whilst I was already like a meter from his butt mid charge

scarlet onyx
golden coral
cobalt dagger
cobalt dagger
scarlet onyx
#

Maybe it's a bug then. But it won me multiple fights on dilos

rigid tulip
cobalt dagger
#

I had to learn specifically to be careful with me claws

rigid tulip
#

which is very lame, and I have always supported teno over carno

cobalt dagger
#

Basically you are on a different spot on his screen than on your screen.

rigid tulip
#

No like I was already about to hit him when he started the animation. The startup of the animation has the CC protection not just the actual attack part. So you dont even need timing.

cobalt dagger
#

And who lands a hit depends on the hitter's screen not the dodger's screen

#

Basically if someone has bad ping, then on their screen you have very slow reaction time/you are a little behind yourself.

#

So on your screen you were kinda already hitting him, but on his screen you were just under his tail...

cobalt dagger
# scarlet onyx Maybe it's a bug then. But it won me multiple fights on dilos

Was your stam 0, and were you z-walking? The z-walk regens stam and the claw attack stam drain is VERY minimal. You might be regenerating the tiny sliver of stam required to claw-swipe by the time you're doing your next one. The animation is faster now though so if you just spam it the animation happens faster than the stam can regen to do it again.

cobalt dagger
#

If one of us wins regardless of what we play, then it's skill who decides the winner.

#

If one of us wins on carno or on teno then the animal is strong

#

But, there is one more issue. Teno is hard to master, so if we both lack skill, then the teno will loose both times, not because teno is unbalanced but because teno is a complicated animal.

#

And on that note I am not confident with either animal.

#

Not right now anyway.

#

So, let's say, my carno wins, your carno wins, you teno wins, my teno looses, that could be result of me having less skill and not teno being underpowered.

golden coral
#

Nor am I, hence the offer of practice, I don't imagine we'd figure it out in one day. But the more we play, the better we'll get, at least in theory, and it gives us something fun to do aside from suffering in survival!

cobalt dagger
#

That's fair! Do you use 'Taco Island' for 1 v 1?

#

That is the one I use.

I played more teno on Spiro and I've barely touched it since Migrations because I hate migrations.

golden coral
#

Normally Scopes server, since I have admin there, don't think I've been on Taco, but I'm fine with that too

#

Heh, haven't touched teno since before we had stego, more or less, and played carno about as much (I love stego too much, always end up going back to it, bad as a playable as it is)

cobalt dagger
#

I have a carno-main friend who liked to duel my teno and last night he wanted to practice so he asked me to go teno and I think I must have disappointed him. Back on Spiro I used to kill his carno 20% of the time but I couldn't even get him to the orange lines last night!

golden coral
#

It is also a matter of getting used to how the playables handle again, it can take some time too

cobalt dagger
#

This is fair

#

But the hitboxes of things didn't change

#

His carno was assuredly more wiggly than spiro's carno though and baited me almost every time

golden coral
#

No but most other values did, and carno charge, and so on

#

Which all determine how you end up playing

#

Obviously carno with instant accel is a lot better at baiting, that should be obvious, but that just means you need to adjust for that

cobalt dagger
#

So in the past he'd do a mix of charge and baiting, now he does ALL baiting since charge doesn't work, occasionally he's charged me but only after I am fully in the mindset of 'this carno is trying to bait' and then BOOM I get charged in the face and die.

#

Reading your opponent and being unpredictable is a part of being skilled

golden coral
#

True, but I was more so talking about the actual capabilities the playable can do

#

If you can't insta accel, you can't, and no skill will change that

cobalt dagger
#

This is true

#

When did you want to 1 v 1 again? So I can make myself not-busy at that time.

golden coral
#

I won't be home for another few days, currently visiting relatives over the holidays, and net here is just no good. But from the end of next week I should be around plenty enough!

cobalt dagger
#

Oh wow

#

I am not sure what I will be doing at that time, I work on-call

#

So, I replace people when they don't make it in, so I do not know my work schedule until the place closes or until I get called in and it's like 'oh now I work today'

#

The place closed as of 20 minutes ago.

#

But that's also if I don't forget and spend time with some friends

golden coral
#

I wouldn't worry, I'm sure we'll get some time that suits us both

scarlet onyx
hollow canyon
#

In general, the whole idea "if it's slower it's gotta be able to win every fight, if it's faster it shouldn't be winning the fight" - has to go to hell, it's a ridiculous and just outright stupid approach to balancing

#

"oh, Protoceratops is slower than Dilo/Omni so it should be able to 1v2 them" - this is what I hear whenever someone starts crying about one thing being less powerful in a fight while also being slower than another.

cobalt dagger
# hollow canyon In general, the whole idea "if it's slower it's gotta be able to win every fight...

I don't think it's completely stupid, because of outnumbering. When a faster creature is outnumbered, it has a solution - it's faster and it runs away. When a slower creature is outnumbered, it simply dies, unless it's built to fight groups like stego.

Back on Spiro, playing Teno, all potential fights ran away from me and dis-engaged. No one wanted to challenge me or even test me... Except for 4-5 ceras or 3 carnos, at which point the only chance of survival was to jump on a rock and I couldn't even get to a rock in time. Why would I EVER play a thing where I never get to fight anyone, except when people let me, and then they only let me when they have a ridiculous advantage?

Unless that thing was strong enough to fight the groups that challenged it, provided it had skill - THEN I would play that thing.

#

But then, it would be a fair fight.

#

Though, not all of the game is balanced this way. Cera is slower than carno but the cera-carno match up was, at least in the past, slightly in the carno's favor, barring exceptions like 'terrain' and 'is there a dead body' and all that.

#

Such that more than one carno is a nightmare for cera, and cera can't even jump on a rock!

hollow canyon
hollow canyon
#

there are other ways of surviving something than just facetanking it till it dies/runs away or being faster than it

#

both Cerato and Tenonto are vastly better in the water than Carno is, they also operate better in an environment where there isn't much open space for Carno to charge

#

they don't need to and shouldn't be allowed to be strong enough to take out MULTIPLE Carnos in an open fight, that's just ridiculous

#

and again - how the hell do you think it's going to work in the future?

#

Will you want Minmi to be able to beat a goddamn Albertosaurus because it's slower?

#

or a Protoceratops to beat an Omni/Dilo?

#

pardon me - 2 Omnis/Dilos

#

because they might just be moving around in groups

cobalt dagger
#

I would say it is an issue...
The game is not a pvp game, it's a survival game. You can nest, you can hunt, you can explore, but to do any of this you must be ALIVE and surviving is the name of the game.

I never implied that they always have to facetank. There is also hiding. Swimming - Water is a bit scarce on Gateway I feel, and also not always will it be nearby, or not full of deinos.

Now, to be alive, you need a method of surviving things that attack you. Ptera flies, herra climbs, ect ect.

Let me try to explain it this way...
Say I have two identical animals. Pretend they're both carnos. Two carnos. They are EXACTLY THE SAME but for one difference, one is slower than the other. But otherwise the fight between them is an entirely fair fight. Carno A is faster and Carno B is slower.

Let's say two get in a fight, and carno A is more skilled. B realizes it's loosing and tries to run away, but A is faster and finishes it off.
Reverse the situation. B is more skilled and winning, A sees it's loosing and runs away - B does not secure the kill.
Let's say, they get in a fight again, but with numbers. A has 3 and B is alone. B tries to run away because it's outnumbered, but it can't so it dies.
Now B has numbers, A is alone. A runs away, no matter how many they have B does not secure a kill.

If I have a choice between two 'equally powerful' animals but one is faster, I will choose the faster one, because this one is more likely to survive. Personally, I like being alive, and being able to run away or escape fights I can't take is a huge deal.

Now, I don't want dryo to be killing Carnos, but here is why - Dryo does not take as long to grow up.

And like you said, there are more methods of escape. Having an animal be better at dodging and having better stamina than carno, gives it a way to escape and live.

Cera and Teno are not really so well equipped to dodge a carno, and bodies of water are not plentiful enough or wide enough.

#

Because Cera and Teno grow up about as long as Carno, that is why I am looking at their matchup with carno. Things that grow faster than carno shouldn't necessarily survive it.

#

The adult carno is a 'bigger investment' of player time and effort than the adult dryo.

hollow canyon
#

you have a Carno and a Tenonto

#

one of them needs a lot of space to be able to utilise its special ability, deals lower damage, has only one form of CC

#

but it's tankier and faster

cobalt dagger
#

Yes, I am not telling you how the game currently works - I'm telling you what happens when you have a fair fight between animals of different speeds. That is all the example exists to do.

hollow canyon
#

the other one has two forms of CC that it can use at point blank and a higher dps

cobalt dagger
#

It's not a comparison.

hollow canyon
#

the comparison is not good though, because if that slower Carno has two CCs that it can use at pointblank whenever it wants it instawins that fight unless it's bad

cobalt dagger
#

But it's not a comparison.

#

It's just a logical example showing you what happens when one animal is faster than another but both have an equal fight.

#

I am not comparing teno and carno at the moment.

hollow canyon
#

but they **don't **have an equal fight

cobalt dagger
#

That may be the case

hollow canyon
#

what is argued here is whether Tenonto should be able to take on 2 Carnos

#

it shouldn't it's really that simple

cobalt dagger
#

Okay... So, if you can look at my example.

#

Would you consider the result of the two carnos, to be fair and good?

#

What would you recommend we change, for carno B to be more fun and have a fair time?

hollow canyon
#

I consider your example

#

to be bad

#

I've already said that, it's not a valid comparison

cobalt dagger
#

Okay... Is it bad because... It wouldn't happen that way?

hollow canyon
#

it's bad because Tenonto isn't just a slower Carno

cobalt dagger
#

It's not a comparison...

hollow canyon
#

it's really that simple

#

then this "example" is irrelevant to what we're talking about

#

and idk why you even bring it up

cobalt dagger
#

Yes, teno is not a slower carno. Fortunately, this example, is not a comparison. It's frustrating you keep calling it a comparison when that is not what I am trying to do.

#

I will try to explain the relevance better, then.

hollow canyon
#

because if it's not a comparison then it's irrelevant to the discussion about whether Teno should be defeating 2 Carnos

cobalt dagger
#

Okay, so, do you want Teno and Carno to have fair fights against each other?

#

This is what you would like, right?

hollow canyon
#

what is it exactly supposed to achieve? Are you trying to prove that Carno would be worse if it was slower?

hollow canyon
cobalt dagger
#

No, that is not it. I am trying to explain what I am trying to achieve.

#

A skill-based, fair match up. Okay, makes sense.

hollow canyon
#

not fair

#

Tenonto should have an advantage

cobalt dagger
#

Ah, okay

hollow canyon
#

it should not have enough advantage to 2v1 Carnos

cobalt dagger
#

Okay, interesting. Why do you think teno should have an advantage?

hollow canyon
#

because its power doesn't scale with numbers as well as that of Carnos and a single Carno should not be killing a Teno willy nilly if Teno is good

#

it should be a difficult fight for a single Carno

#

not for 2 Carnos

#

Teno being slower is good enough of a reason to where it has some advantage over Carno in a 1v1 too, not enough to be able to defeat 2 of them

#

on U3.5 Teno could effectively obliterate Carno's health bar with a well executed combo

#

typically not quite enough to kill a Carno

#

but I have managed to outright combo a Carno from 100 to 0

#

so it was risky for Carno but Carno could still 1v1 a Teno if it played its cards correctly

cobalt dagger
#

Interesting. So, you think, because teno is slower, it should have an advantage in the 1 v 1?

hollow canyon
#

that and all the other reasons I have mentioned

cobalt dagger
#

Then, we agree to some degree, because we both believe that slower things need to have combat advantages, we just do not agree to what degree of advantage is needed

hollow canyon
#

to some degree only

#

because I don't think this is a general rule

cobalt dagger
#

Well, neither do I, I mentioned dryo.

#

I think you misunderstand me a lot.

hollow canyon
#

I think it's applicable to some extent here because the size and growth difference isn't big enough to make it a Carno favoured or a completely equal match up

#

I do understand you, I just find the argument about Dryo bad thus I ignored it

#

Dryo is completely immune to Carno and would remain so even if it was slower

cobalt dagger
#

I... Really don't think you do understand me, because you kept saying my example was a comparison after I said multiple times that it was not.

#

Ah I see, then the issue is that I don't understand the dryo-carno match up.

hollow canyon
#

yea, I played it on 3.5 a tonne

#

Dryo could prance into a Carno pack, kill all the juvies and leave without being hit once

#

if it was good enough at the time

cobalt dagger
#

Well, that one WAS a comparison. What I want to say is that, animals with slower grow times/higher time investment should have advantage over creatures of lower-time-investment.

hollow canyon
#

I agree

cobalt dagger
#

Then, that was the point of my dryo-carno example

#

I wish you hadn't ignored it, and asked me what it was trying to prove, and I could have re-described it sooner...

hollow canyon
#

but I don't consider that the only factor, the difficulty of the maintenance and the difficulty of growth are similar but different factors in my mind

#

that + sized and how well armed an animal is

cobalt dagger
#

This is true, to 'difficulty of growth.'

I think that if an animal is 'bigger and better armed' then 'it should be slower to grow'

distant torrent
hollow canyon
#

literally the only thing I can say at this point

#

but really your name says it all

cobalt dagger
#

I understand their name displays what they believe in but I don't think you should write someone off for that... It is not very nice.

distant torrent
hollow canyon
#

yea well

distant torrent
hollow canyon
#

that's not 200kg then so idk what you're talking about

#

that's 2t more on the opposite team

#

you have two Carnos each one weighing 200kg more than the single Tenonto

#

and Tenonto should win... because reasons

#

should Protoceratops win vs 2 Dilos too while we're at it?

cobalt dagger
#

Well, I would like to explain why I believe the teno should win.

#

I can try again if you like

distant torrent
hollow canyon
#

it can, if it makes the right calls, I chose most of my fights with Teno and I played it more than Carno over the last 2 years

cobalt dagger
#

Choosing your fights is a big deal, but I will also mention carno's hunger drain is awful, limiting whether or not he CAN choose a fight sometimes. And to be honest, I would like to see his hunger drain decreased - I would like to see carnivores be able to pick their fights.

tall bronze
#

I would imagine a Teno could use something like trees or aquatic environments in such a situation. Also it could just pay attention and stay away from Carnos all together 😛

cobalt dagger
#

Real carnivores pick their fights and pick the weakest member of the herd and whatever.

hollow canyon
hollow canyon
#

but that mechanic is an absolute mistake either way

distant torrent
hollow canyon
#

whether the map is bad is a different story

tall bronze
#

Well, Don did mention it permanently leaving Highlands eventually. There's also talk about Teno being made more water focused and going to islands.

distant torrent
#

I still stand by the idea that forced island migrations will be mind numbingly boring if migrations stay the way they are

cobalt dagger
# tall bronze I would imagine a Teno could use something like trees or aquatic environments in...

Yes, teno can hide from carno, and hiding is ridiculously effective in this game. I've hidden in times I really shouldn't have gotten away with it. But that opens it's own can of worms.

You see, as a carno, you can live and search and be skilled at hunting and simply, find no one. Everyone afk in a bush watching youtube, and you don't have time to bite every bush in gateway, your hunger drains too fast for that. You could die not because you weren't skilled or because you did anything wrong but because you were simply unlucky.
So yeah as teno you can just hide from carnos but I don't think that's how it SHOULD be, because for the carno it's lethal, for the teno it's boring, and it overall reduces player interaction.

But regardless of my desires for hiding to no longer be a necessary way to survive, it is how it is right now.

distant torrent
cobalt dagger
#

I will try again to explain why I think a teno should be able to fend more than one carno.

#

First though, I need to put teno aside real quick, and explain how the ability to pick your fights affects a matchup.

hollow canyon
#

that was "stay away"

tall bronze
#

I'd say that's more of an issue with hunger drain rates (which even Filipe agrees are too fast) and mechanics like migrations not working as intended (AKA encouraging movement around the map instead of 24/7 bush sitting) than specifically Teno vs Carnos

hollow canyon
#

two very different things as far as I'm concerned

cobalt dagger
distant torrent
#

that’s basically the same as hiding. you aren’t staying away from a carno if it spots you and decides it wants to try you lol it’s a lot faster

cobalt dagger
#

^

hollow canyon
#

hiding is staying in a bush where you can't be seen

cobalt dagger
#

It's also just, moving and not being seen.

hollow canyon
#

staying away is travelling through an area where they are not because they aren't fit for that specific environment

tall bronze
#

This also encroaches into the general issue of there being little else to do right now but fight, which affects everything but especially certain herbivores.

cobalt dagger
#

You can hide and move, it's just harder, but I've done it.

hollow canyon
#

if I stay in the woods - Carno can come at me all it wants

#

I've crossed the whole map without encountering Carnos on Spiro

cobalt dagger
#

HAH all my carnos in gateway attacked me in woods except for 1.

hollow canyon
#

sometimes I'd actively seek them

#

and yea I would sometimes go into the open to find them if I was bored

cobalt dagger
#

In spiro I encountered 2 carnos, one in woods one in fields near some woods.

distant torrent
#

lol the woods was the place to search for sneaky tenos if you know the typical behavior of teno players. the jungle leading from swamp to the radio tower was a teno highway

hollow canyon
#

whenever I fought Carnos in woods they were typically just dead meat walking, they can't stay near you, they can't charge you if you use the trees

#

I think I've used that and the plateau up north to travel along the dry river

cobalt dagger
#

All the carnos I fought in woods knew what they were doing, I tripped over logs they walked around, they knew the spot better than I did.

hollow canyon
#

never got caught either way

cobalt dagger
#

And that was probably why they were there.

#

Because they were hunting in that specific spot.

hollow canyon
cobalt dagger
#

And using a night camo skin to skittered off in the bushes so they couldn't be chased.

cobalt dagger
distant torrent
#

I was guilty of camo skins on almost every playable and I’m not afraid to admit it

hollow canyon
#

I have never been found in all my time crossing the whole Spiro

#

this is not counting the times I was found when I was moving around as a juvie

#

right at the start

cobalt dagger
#

Hiding is absurdly effective, as I said, and is probably cause of more carno death (via starvation) than any combat playable if I had to guess

hollow canyon
#

I mean - duh, Carno will almost never fight you to the death

#

Teno can't nuke it down from 100 to 0 anymore

#

so there's no way Carnos will be dying to Tenos

cobalt dagger
#

But tenos will die to carnos, when out numebered.

distant torrent
#

so teno is allowed to die to carno but carno isn’t allowed to die to teno when it doesn’t want to. fun

cobalt dagger
#

That's the beauty of picking your fights.

hollow canyon
cobalt dagger
#

And then carno will starve to death while all the tenos hide from the pack of 3 carnos.

distant torrent
hollow canyon
#

we're talking about whether it should be able to 1v2 them

cobalt dagger
hollow canyon
#

I hope so

#

if they don't then something is really wrong with that

#

2-3 Tenos can also kill a Carno

cobalt dagger
#

IF the carno doesn't run away

hollow canyon
#

I'm talking about a single Teno not being able to nuke down Carno from 100 to 0

distant torrent
#

1v2, I hope not. 1v3? that teno better be a god at combat and know teno like the back of his or her hand

hollow canyon
hollow canyon
#

1v3?

#

Are you serious?

cobalt dagger
hollow canyon
cobalt dagger
distant torrent
# hollow canyon wat

I hope teno doesn’t typically lose a 1v2 when both parties have the same skill and knowledge. 1v3 should be a nail biting and close call for the teno at best

hollow canyon
#

so?

cobalt dagger
hollow canyon
#

Swim across again

#

Teno has the best swimming stamina in the game

#

it beats Deino like 10 times over

cobalt dagger
#

all they have to do, is put 1 on either side, and have the 2nd go to whiched side you're fighting on.

distant torrent
cobalt dagger
#

That's if a croc doesn't eat you.

#

As well

distant torrent
#

9 times out of 10 you will be yoinked by a croc

hollow canyon
hollow canyon
#

and this is assuming bad river that are narrow

#

if they're big you can just get away by crossing them

distant torrent
hollow canyon
#

on old Spiro I ambushed three Carnos as a Teno, killed one of them before it got up and got away without any issues

#

because I could just swim across the swamp

cobalt dagger
hollow canyon
cobalt dagger
golden coral
#

I think you might all need to keep in mind, there will be "I will die" situations

hollow canyon
#

you did not grow Deinos in that swamp

cobalt dagger
#

Oh, Gateway swamp?

golden coral
#

If you're sufficiently outnumbered, or just caught in a bad situation, you are going to die, no amount of skill will, or should, save you there

hollow canyon
#

no

cobalt dagger
#

I thought you were talking about Spiro

hollow canyon
#

old Spiro

cobalt dagger
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Oh the one where there is some land separating it?

hollow canyon
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emphasis on "old"

golden coral
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Same as with no amount of skill neccesarily letting you kill something (like a troodon killing a brachi or other funny stuff)

cobalt dagger
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Ohhh, okay yes, I only know spiro and gateway, not anything in legacy

hollow canyon
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old Spiro that was there before it was reworked with addition of Deino because Deino would've been bad on the old one

hollow canyon
distant torrent
hollow canyon
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it was in Evrima, it was Spiro, just looked differently to the one you know

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the water was not all connected

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it had different ponds, different rivers etc

cobalt dagger
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Ah so deino was not even a concern because he didn't exist, that makes sense.

golden coral
cobalt dagger
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Teno and water would have been SO much better without deino

hollow canyon
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Deino wouldn't have been a concern either way because that map would be the death of it

golden coral
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But the point remains, you will at some point just be up against something you can't win over

hollow canyon
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^

golden coral
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Be it due to bad circumstances, or sheer numbers

cobalt dagger
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I mean, as galli or ptera, you can avoid pretty effectively, but yeah some animals get more stuck than others.

hollow canyon
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again - should a protoceratops win vs two Dilos just because it can't escape?

golden coral
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Like, a teno should be able to handle 3 omnis if it knows what it's doing, but if you get found by a full pack of 8? You die, end of story

distant torrent
golden coral
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Sure, you might be able to kill a few of the omnis, but you will die

cobalt dagger
golden coral
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Same applies to carno vs teno

cobalt dagger
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It should be very hard

golden coral
hollow canyon
golden coral
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But by no means should a solo teno, given the omnis know what they're doing, survive 4+ omnis in a fight

hollow canyon
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^

golden coral
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Nor should a teno ever fight of 3 carnos, barely even 2 really

cobalt dagger
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I don't think tenos should be able to survive 1 v 3 on carnos, and I think 1 v 2 the teno should be disadvantaged but it shouldn't be 'you just die'

distant torrent
cobalt dagger
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So, probably good teno, vs bad raptors.

golden coral
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Meanwhile, teno players that survive tend to get really good

distant torrent
cobalt dagger
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However, it's always going to be frustrating, to be skilled, and die to very un-skilled players simply because they had a numbers advantage.

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That will always be annoying to people.

golden coral
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It will, but quantity is a quality after all

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And it'd be even weirder if it was ignored

cobalt dagger
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Well, what happens is people stop playing that animal.

golden coral
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If you just have enough people to throw at a problem, it will go away

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Not neccesarily, not if A, you aren't that outnumbered very often or B, you can easily find your own numbers

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What makes people stop playing something is when it goes bad in the 1v1, because that's when you start losing people before they can even get a group going

hollow canyon
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and in general instead of talking about how it should be - they should make Teno not invulnerable to charge during its attacks but it should be able to stop the charge with the tailslam/kick

cobalt dagger
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I asked some deinos once, 'why do you guys play deino?' and from two different deinos I got two answers. One said 'because it doesn't die' and the other said 'because it's op.'
Now, I know because of canni deinos they DO die but I am merely reporting to you what these players told me was their logic behind maining deino.

People play the powerful thing that doesn't die. Like how we have too many dilos right now. They don't play the thing that's so slow it gets outnumbered and can't escape when it does.

hollow canyon
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it's that simple

hollow canyon
distant torrent
golden coral
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People played deinos even when teno was really good to be fair

unborn iris
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Deino is also ridiculously easy to grow and survive. That's probably the bigger reason for most of them, but of course they're not going to say they are bad at the other dinos.

cobalt dagger
hollow canyon
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and as long as the infestation in our bodies of water then we can never truly be free

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that's why the river worms have to go

golden coral
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But like, as much as I love my stego, I can't argue it should take on 2 rexes solo and somehow make it out, that would make no sense (assuming here that rex is faster and stego can't escape it by running)

hollow canyon
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and the only way of making them all go is killing them all

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and killing them all so hard that they stay dead

distant torrent
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(then they respawn and regrow)

golden coral
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The counter to numbers would be terrain to cut them off, and thus make them go "whoever goes in, is also going to die" or similar

hollow canyon
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then you kill them again

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and again and again

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until they eventually develop post traumatic stress disorder related to playing the river worm

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only then can our bodies of water be free and unpoluted by the danger-logs

cobalt dagger
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I think with stego and t-rex, 2 trex should have a harder time killing 1 stego than killing, 1 t-rex

distant torrent
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then they complain in general feedback, quit for a few days, then come back to regrow again

cobalt dagger
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Maybe some AMAZING super-skilled players could be 1 t-rex and beat 2-trex with their amazing skills and then that same player might be able to pull it off with stego

hollow canyon
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no matter what's happening

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it's a Deino that draws breath - it dies

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Deinos complaining on this discord about being cannibaloinged is music to my ears

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(eyes?)

distant torrent
golden coral
hollow canyon
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dumbest freaking playable in the history of this game I swear

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look, I was skeptical before it came out

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but goddamn it's just so bad that I didn't even see it coming

cobalt dagger
golden coral
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But obviously a rex will be able to take on a stego, as it should, just like a stego should be able to fight back. But that's on a 1v1 basis, since forcing either to be in a group is questionable, for multiple reasons

golden coral
hollow canyon
golden coral
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But if you got two rexes that are as skilled as the solo stego, that stego should be done for

hollow canyon
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it's just a bizarre argument - what if T.rex has the skill to solo three trikes and a Brachiosaurus? I mean... it having the skill to do that is entirely dependent on what the playable allows the player to do

cobalt dagger
golden coral
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So in a 1v1, stego as a playable should hold the advantage if the stego can't escape the rex. But that's on the 1v1 basis, numbers changes tha.

hollow canyon
golden coral
cobalt dagger
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Well they are the same guys

golden coral
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If they are both as skilled as the third, solo one, the solo one dies

hollow canyon
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but now you assume the two are less skilled

cobalt dagger
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So nothing has changed

golden coral
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If three rexes are equally skilled, the solo one will die

hollow canyon
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we are talking about a scenario where all people involved are at the same skill level

cobalt dagger
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I mean if you have 3 rexs of EQUAL skill, and 1 v 2, the 1 dies.

golden coral
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And the same would happen to the stego

hollow canyon
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what it you have 1 stego and 2 rexes and all are of the same skill?

golden coral
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@cobalt daggerBasically. If two carnos and one teno are all equally skilled, the teno dies. If two rexes and one stego are of equal skill, the stego dies. Does it suck to be outnumbered and die because you can't escape? Yes, but that's how it's going to go with numbers and speed.

cobalt dagger
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But I am talking about, a player so good they can fight 2 rexes as 1, then I'd hope they can use their skill the same way as another apex.

golden coral
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Yeah sure, but that only works if your opponents are less skilled or otherwise messes up

cobalt dagger
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And hencefore we have lots of omnis, deinos and carnos and very few tenos.

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But we DO have stegos because stegos can fight groups.

distant torrent
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^

hollow canyon
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and honestly tbh - for 2 of the same animal to die to the same animal they are on the skill difference or the execution of their plan has to go insanely well

cobalt dagger
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People don't like to die to helplessly being outnumbered, it's not fun.

hollow canyon
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well make the whole game have no grouping as far as I'm concerned

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I'd love that

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but it's not happening

cobalt dagger
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And you can say 'well guess what that's how it's gonna be' and then you get no tenos