balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

I supported a cooldown, but under the assumption that stuff like the stam consumption, damage and knockdown would be reduced

[eternal oak]

but alas it wasnt

[dusky surge]

apparently they're working on balance changes, so i can only hope for a carno that's fun to exist with

because it's not like carno can't be cool

but it's consistently built to shred tenonto and cera for some goddamn reason

[eternal oak]

it was cool. so it can be cool

[dusky surge]

i legit feel bad for teno and cera players

pachy also gets really messed up from carno

[coarse blaze]

Previously I thought carno/cera was a fairly fair 1v1 but now I just don't really care to encounter a FG carno with my cera.

[dusky surge]

herbivores literally would feel better to play if they just nerfed omni and carno

and holy dear god poor stego gets zero breaks in terms of nerfs that absolutely do not need to be on it, like losing its ONLY GODDAMN ATTACK when a juvi omni pounces it

[coarse blaze]

God knows I won't hear it charging my way

[frail bobcat]

*juvie troodon

[hollow canyon]

Carno was much better before it

[foggy elm]

yea, but its not supposed to be realistic. its not gonna break the games balance to make beipe faster. just make beeepy faster

[foggy elm]

i feel bad for myself, killing a carno as a teno or cera has become almost impossible

[scarlet onyx]

Cera is actually still quite broken when you ignore how powerful carno charge is right now.

[livid crater]

??? Of all the dino games out there, The Isle is the one striving most to be realistic lol. And it kind of would break the balance; if we were still on Spiro with Spiro stamina I might agree with you. But Deino already has enough trouble finding food on Gateway, making one of our only prey options in the water impossible to catch would only make it worse. The lack of food for Deino on Gateway is so bad that cannibalism is so much more frequent that it's almost not even fun to play Deino anymore

[foggy elm]

....... beipe literally swims in the isle, its not supposed to be 100% realistic. also, i see that youre a deino main, which is why deino should also have 2x the growth time and beipe should 100% swim faster than deino

[livid crater]

I haven't played deino again since Gateway came out because they literally sucked all of the fun out of it

[foggy elm]

deino cannibalism is a good thing, ive even wanted them to make deino the only s diet that deino has

[livid crater]

yeah okay your opinions are terrible, I'm just going to disregard

[foggy elm]

well, its an apex, its supposed to be hard to grow

[slim dragon]

Deino shouldn't even consider beipi potential prey

And faster doesn't mean impossible to catch
It just means you need to use your brain to catch one

[frail bobcat]

making something a cannibal is a buff

[livid crater]

not for the player being cannibalized lol

[frail bobcat]

you can sustain yourself on your kin

[livid crater]

deino is straight up not fun anymore since Gateway

[frail bobcat]

its about the population

what if a group of non cannis is about to starve?

what happens?

[slim dragon]

Idk
Tell me

[livid crater]

you can't explore the map after like 50% growth because you have zero stamina and regen and your hydration drains infinitely faster than anything else

you dry out before you can get to another body of water unless you're a baby

[frail bobcat]

they starve or get severe debuffs because of cannibaloing

[slim dragon]

Who picks deino to explore the map ?

[slim dragon]

Oh

[frail bobcat]

nice pfp btw

[livid crater]

uh, I mean the entire point of gateway is migrations, my point is that deino can't even keep up with the main new feature in gateway

hence it not being fun to play anymore

[slim dragon]

Was it ever fun ?

[livid crater]

you pretty much get locked into a single body of water permanently once you get to a higher growth. And yes, it was fun on Spiro

[frail bobcat]

because the entire map was catered to it

[livid crater]

people just hate deino players because they rage about getting eaten off of the river bank, so any argument for deino needing a buff immediately gets shot down by salty players

[slim dragon]

But you were also locked into a single body of water on spiro
Except that body of water conveniently surrounded the entire playable area

[livid crater]

the truth is that they were strong on Spiro, they are almost unplayable on Gateway

[livid crater]

and there were no migrations, so players were actually all over the map. It's not like that on Gateway anymore

[frail bobcat]

no, they were too easy too easy play on spiro, now they are as hard as they should be

[slim dragon]

Deino mains just hate people because they can't get their fun in any other way than deleting others' progress with no possible counterplay

[livid crater]

lol you guys are delusional

[slim dragon]

Nah, everyone was just in center
The rest of the map was empty

[livid crater]

I play other dinos and never have issues because I don't drink out in the open

[frail bobcat]

Bubulblu, am I delusional?

[livid crater]

the rest of the map was not empty lmao

just because you hung out in center doesn't mean everyone else did

I spent maybe 5% of my time on spiro in the center

[slim dragon]

I would tell you you aren't, but maybe I am delusional too, so it wouldn't be to trust

[frail bobcat]

I got yoinked thrice in 400 hours. the thing that bugged were the sheer numbers of deinos making the server feel empty

[livid crater]

it never felt empty to me tbh

[slim dragon]

40 per server on average before gateway

[frail bobcat]

dont remind me

[livid crater]

the bigger issue is that the player count is only 100 for a huge map

and gateway is even bigger I'm pretty sure

[frail bobcat]

3 times bigger

[livid crater]

yeah, which doesn't help at all

[frail bobcat]

its just not catered to deino, get used to it. deino is a apex, which should be hard to play

[livid crater]

deino is practically unplayable on gateway, that's not good design. And why should apex be hard to play? by definition it's supposed to be the strongest dino

that should make it easy to play if anything

I'm not asking for it to be easy to play, I'm asking for it to be reasonable to play

it's unreasonable on gateway right now

[frail bobcat]

do you know the survival rates of apex predators to adulthood?

[livid crater]

do you?

[frail bobcat]

they arent very high

[livid crater]

please provide a source

[slim dragon]

The more killing power you have=the harder you should work to obtain it

[slim dragon]

The average survival rate for most animals in nature is 10%
Of course animals that raise their young have it much higher

[livid crater]

I'm not going to keep arguing, if you guys can't see why deino is flawed on Gateway then I don't know what to tell you. Deino stamina and stamina regen was already total garbage on Spiro, it's about 10x worse on Gateway now, migrations are pretty much meaningless for them

I'm just going to leave it at that

[minor breach]

eh, I like the swamp. Sure its a Florida simulator, but im already playing a Gator

[livid crater]

if the migration zone happens to be there, sure

[minor breach]

played right, you don't starve (plenty of fish) and the traveling Gators are chill 8 times out of 10

[livid crater]

but when it's not, you're not going anywhere and you're sure not going to find non-deino prey lol

[minor breach]

honestly, im new to the game, so I have an unbiased look at Gateway. I really like the Gator community on Gateway, specifically na4-7

[livid crater]

if you're an adult they usually are, if you're any smaller than 80% you're lunch most of the time

[minor breach]

chill as heck, helping hunt

so far in my.....idk, like under 20 hours, I've been attacked once by another gator and passed by a good 100 of them

[livid crater]

maybe it's changed since gateway launch, I haven't played it again after the launch week

every single gator I ran into tried to kill me then

[minor breach]

for reference, we even hung out with the ducks for a while and traded fish for crabs

so yeah, pretty chill, at least at water access

[livid crater]

none of those are adult crocs though lol

[frail bobcat]

its one ss

[livid crater]

regardless, the bigger problem is that you can't leave the body of water you're in unless you're below sub-adult

[minor breach]

the main issue at water access is the dam birds. ducks and gators every now and then mutual defense pact against them. and there is a migration path that leads right by the dam lake

[minor breach]

sure, but why leave the water? if you want to explore, play gali. if you want to gator life, then why be irritated that you are worse than flying than pterodon? I don't understand

[livid crater]

because the migration zones move dude

you won't see another player if the migration zone is on the opposite end of the map, and you're sure as hell not going to reach it as a fully grown croc

[minor breach]

is there less water now than on previous maps? Migration zones don't really affect gators. Ive never starved yet as a gator. its almost its own game

[livid crater]

it's not about starving, it's about dehydrating trying to hop from one body of water to another to keep up with where the other players are going

[stark knoll]

There's more water on this map, but on the old map every source was directly connected

There were no lakes, and only 1 large river system

[livid crater]

if they added some more small bodies of water between migration zones I would be less upset

but right now you literally can't get from one migration zone to another as a fully grown croc without dehydrating to death lol

[minor breach]

idk how they get there, but i normally find gators in every body of water when im not a gator

[livid crater]

because they ran there as baby crocs and stay there their whole life

[stark knoll]

Migrations are a suggestion for carnivores, really

[minor breach]

highlands, see gators, west rail access, see gators

[stark knoll]

There's nothing requiring you to follow them, especially when organs exist

[minor breach]

and there so much fish that the gators have almost exclusive access to that you won't starve

[livid crater]

how are you going to get organs when players are nowhere near your body of water though

[frail bobcat]

children

[stark knoll]

Not every herbivore has the same migration zone, being in one can get animals that aren't specifically on your diet

And deino is far from immobile on Gateway, there's still interconnected systems

[livid crater]

wait, what??? is there always a migration zone for something at every location?

[stark knoll]

And fish too, they're everywhere

[minor breach]

its more of "do you want to play an angy retiree in florida being lazy until you have to fight something" or "do you want to play a migratory thing"
I really like the chill laid back style of the gator. its easy as a new player

gator hours are fun, i've met lots of chill gators. we just trade hunting tips as we pass in the rivers

[stark knoll]

I don't believe every single migration zone is always active, but not every zone overlaps. Each species is sent to a specific place, and often those places don't overlap with something else

[livid crater]

as a fully grown croc you're pretty much immobile. You dry out on land super quick and there's not enough small bodies of water for hopping from one to another

[minor breach]

i mean then go for a swim?

[livid crater]

I did not know this, I assumed all herbies were at the same zone

[stark knoll]

You can only scent the active zones of species on your diet list, it's always a possibility that you're in the active zone of something not on your diet

[livid crater]

I think you're totally missing my point dude. How am I going to go for a swim when I'm trying to go from one river to another body of water that's further than my hydration lasts?

[minor breach]

shot in the dark here, but are you wanting a carnivor that can more counter stegos? because I'm not hearing you say that you dislike the normalized expected lazy gameplay of the gator, you are more wanting it to be able to move far across the map and do potentially other things to make it more viable than it currently is

[livid crater]

even getting between these two bodies of water is nigh impossible as a fully grown gator, I'm not even talking about crossing the entire map

[minor breach]

well yeah, so don't do it as a full grown gator

[livid crater]

again, that's boring as hell being locked to a single body of water for your entire dino's life

you spend 5 hours growing just to sit in the same location on the map permanently, that's not good design

they need to add more lakes/ponds

[minor breach]

then don't play gator?
Here's another thing I can't do
I can't run from one Migration zone to another as a Carno without dying of starvation. I have to stay in an area and hunt. I can't risk the long travel sub adult and higher
I don't think this detracts from Carno, I think it highlights how carno is meant to be played

[livid crater]

if any other dino in the game was stuck to a single location permanently, everyone would be up in arms. But because it's deino, people laugh and say who cares

it's ridiculous imo

[minor breach]

so when i carno, i determine where i want it to live, then take it there, then grow and live there. I don't try to be a world traveler Carno or land walker gator

[livid crater]

the point is that WHEN YOU GET BORED, YOU HAVE THE OPTION TO MOVE as any other dino

[minor breach]

ah ok. question then

[livid crater]

I don't understand why you'd be against having more ponds/lakes between areas, there's literally no reason to fight back against that

especially as a deino player

[minor breach]

nah nah, you mentioned wanting more, then my questions about your original statements you mistook as against wanting more

[livid crater]

?????

[minor breach]

again, im very new, like under 50 hours

so why not take the gator into a bush, safe log, then play something else if you get bored of gator life?

[livid crater]

I said I would be content with having more bodies of water so that deino can actually explore and move around the map without dehydrating

I'm also very new

I played about 2 weeks of spiro before Gateway came out

more lakes/ponds isn't just a win for deino either, more chance of a safe drinking spot for literally every other dino too

[minor breach]

yeah, that'd be good. nothing against that
I'm trying to understand why expect a gator to do not really big fat gator things.
sure it'd be cool, but you have to have a reason for wanting to do it. You mentioned that you want to be able to chase other players in migration zones but water access doesn't follow migration zones as much

[livid crater]

yes that's pretty much it

which I don't see why that's a problem

[minor breach]

i guess.....becuase gators don't have to, its not a huge urgency to make it possible

it'd nice to interact with players more, but its not necessary to continue playing the game without starving

[livid crater]

because it gives you more options than sitting in the same fking spot on the map permanently man lmfao

[minor breach]

unlike the carno, which has to consistently find food

yeah it'd be more options, but sometimes i want to be lazy, and in those times i like the lazy gator community

[livid crater]

then be lazy, but why would you not want the OPTION

nothing I'm suggesting would take away your ability to be a lazy gator

[minor breach]

because it'd probably be like having wings in real life
it'd be cool as heck, but using them would probably feel like exercise, so i wouldn't really use them

[livid crater]

that's fine for you, I would use the option to move around a lot

as would probably most other deinos

all they'd have to do is put a single small pond/lake between every migration zone and deino would actually be reasonable again, to me

[minor breach]

yeah that'd be reasonable

What I'd really like to see is a large predator that can successfully hunt adult stegos. something like a Spino, Allo, T-Rex, or something big

[slim dragon]

T-rex is currently in the works
Spino and allo will both come much later, but in the case of allo it's probably gonna need a pack to kill a stego

[livid crater]

I put a map with lake/pond location suggestions in #general-feedback

[livid crater]

me too, then people will stop hating on deinos more than anything else 😂

to be honest I worry about the t-rex being able to kill stegos too easily, a troll could find a stego pack and probably kill all of them given enough patience and the stegos would have no chance

[slim dragon]

Well stego will definitely need buffs when rex comes in
If one rex can kill a full herd of stegos something went terribly wrong balance-wise

[minor breach]

just literally anything that can force them on the defensive, force them to find a tree, anything than letting them gallop towared and tail swing for free

its not the lone stego that is an issue, its the group

surviving as a small stego is tough, and thats good. that's how it is for others, its how it should be.

[frail bobcat]

@livid crater why are you laughing, its true

[livid crater]

that's why I'm laughing

[frail bobcat]

nvm then

[slim dragon]

Currently omnis will force stego to go near a tree if it wants to survive tho

[livid crater]

https://tenor.com/view/the-isle-deinosuchus-stegosaurus-omw-on-my-way-to-gif-22966345

[minor breach]

they can force a solo stego yeah, i don't think they can force a group

my comments are all on the group

[slim dragon]

If there's at least as many omnis as there are stegos in the group they can very well do that

[minor breach]

sure. let me just conveniently gather 10 omni's at the drop of a hat to deal with 3 stegos. its not a good balance

[slim dragon]

Also well, herds are supposed to make you safer
Although stego is one of the worst herding animals in the game

[minor breach]

so 1 big predator that can threaten 3 stegos would be good for balance

[slim dragon]

I don't think there will ever be such a think

Also 10 omnis against 3 stegos is okay, maybe it should require more omnis tho

[livid crater]

ehhh I have to disagree with that honestly. Maybe 2 stegos

if something can threaten 3 stegos then it would practically be invincible

deino can't even really take on a single stego by itself lol

[minor breach]

yeah it can't

[slim dragon]

Deino isn't supposed to be taking on stegos

[minor breach]

however its implemented, just something anything that makes an adult stego go 'oh no!' and have to be evasive

[livid crater]

wdym? deinos and stegos fight all the time, you just need 2-3 deinos

[slim dragon]

In groups it can
But that's not the way it's designed to be played
Deino is an ambush hunter that is made to kill things under 4 tons, it's not a brawler
And stego doesn't fit in that category

[livid crater]

sorry I didn't realize you were the guru on how to play The Isle, mb

[minor breach]

chill dude

Deino's would be more of a threat to stego if they could grab full grown

[slim dragon]

bruh just look at its kit
Also it's been mentioned by devs multiple times

[minor breach]

that would be a good balance. make it more of a fight

[livid crater]

that would be hilarious lol

they would need to make deino a lot larger though

[slim dragon]

uh
I'm not sure oneshotting a 5-hours grow would be good balance

[minor breach]

i think apex predators can be balanced by having to be extremely carefully grown, take lots of time, and then the reward for that should be being able to threaten any herbivore

heck, make it take 6 hours to grow a full t-rex

[slim dragon]

Apex predators should be on equal footing with apex herbivores otherwise it's gonna be boring

[livid crater]

I can almost guarantee rex will take 6+ hours tbh

[latent lotus]

lets not bring realism into account, from a balance point of view it makes 0 sence

[livid crater]

it makes perfect sense from a balance point of view

[minor breach]

then when a group of herbivores comes across a full grown apex predator that took 6hours+ to grow, you aren't facin gsomethign that spawned 30 minutes ago. you are facing a legit threat that took dedication and skill to grow

its a good balance of time worth

[foggy elm]

in the isle a teno is the same size as a carno. im telling you its not realistic

[latent lotus]

ah yes, beep being faster would absolutly break the ballance

[minor breach]

if you don't want boring, then dont eat grass for a living

[slim dragon]

Yeah but if said herbivore takes as long to grow, say for example a trike, it shouldn't require a group to defeat a single rex
It should be a tough fight, slightly trike-favoured

[foggy elm]

yea, how come my deino cant just left click to win!!

[livid crater]

how does it break the balance by being slower? just get out of the water when you see a deino

[slim dragon]

Deino is faster than beipi on land

[livid crater]

lmfao no it isn't

[foggy elm]

devs hate beep

[latent lotus]

not really

[foggy elm]

beep should be faster than deino in the water and on land

[slim dragon]

Deino has less stamina, but it's insanely fast on land for its size

[latent lotus]

it doenst break the ballance either id just be cool for the bap players

[foggy elm]

it makes sense to be faster from a realism and balance perspective

[livid crater]

my guy, deino is SLOW AS HELL ON LAND what are you talking about? maybe a baby deino

[minor breach]

beipi is faster than gators?

[foggy elm]

beipe is slower than deino

[minor breach]

at least it feels faster sprint swimming under the water and dolphin jumping

[livid crater]

pretty sure bonjo is a troll

[slim dragon]

And beipi is even slower

[latent lotus]

he is dead serious.

[livid crater]

you actually are delusional

[foggy elm]

what? me wanting beipe to be balanced and faster than deino is a troll?

[slim dragon]

If not, their speeds are almost equal
And I'm pretty sure deino can catch a beipi trying to run off on land just thanks to the speed boost from a lunge

[slim dragon]

You've already said that a while ago

[livid crater]

yes but you've solidified my opinion by saying deino is faster than beipi on land

[foggy elm]

beipe should be faster than deino on land and in the water

[latent lotus]

thats cause its still true (sorry)

[latent lotus]

^

[slim dragon]

I guess I can't stop being delusional in the span of 20 minutes

[foggy elm]

https://tenor.com/view/beipiaosaurus-beipi-kaperoo-the-isle-evrima-gif-25100385

[latent lotus]

u would be surprised

[livid crater]

this game's community is going to give me an aneurysm

[minor breach]

are we sure that beipi is slower than gator? it really doesn't feel like it, especially with dolphin jump

[foggy elm]

???? do you think that carno should be stronger than cera?

[livid crater]

lol

[latent lotus]

it is even with dolphing jumps

[slim dragon]

In water it is for certain
In land iirc deino is smth like 24 km/h while beipi is 18 or smth

[foggy elm]

i actually want to know, you think a massive apex predator deino should be faster than a penguin. who should be stronger? cera or carno

[latent lotus]

i kinda wanna know too just answer it pls, skull means nothing

[livid crater]

cera and carno should prob be about the same

[minor breach]

this feels targeted

[foggy elm]

https://tenor.com/view/impress-based-american-psycho-very-based-impressive-very-based-gif-21665669

[minor breach]

carno is fast, but cera should be a brawler

cera feels more like a vulture, not a brawler

I'd like for cera to win solo against solo carno

[latent lotus]

cool

[foggy elm]

but beipe should be faster than deino in the water. 100%

[slim dragon]

It's actually extremely strong for its size
Like a hyena if you want
But carno is a lot bigger

[latent lotus]

here we go again

[foggy elm]

"carno is alot bigger"

[latent lotus]

carno may seem bigger because of how long it legs are but if u compare the torso and head theyr about the same

[slim dragon]

Cera is 1300 kg
Carno is 1800 kg
That's a hefty size difference

[foggy elm]

^

[foggy elm]

carno just never skipped leg day, but even then. thats not "alot bigger"

[latent lotus]

okay. nerf carno then

[slim dragon]

That's a 500 kg difference

[slim dragon]

Yeah carno needs a nerf
But not in size

[livid crater]

carno definitely skipped arm day tho

[minor breach]

maybe carno's stun should only work on equal size or smaller? its mean to be a small animal assassin right?

[latent lotus]

in weight then? also in charge's large ass hitbox and a bigger cooldown

[foggy elm]

buff ceras health to 1400

[slim dragon]

Cera doesn't need to be beating a carno consistently
It only needs to win if it has a corpse to steal or defend, or make itself not worth the hassle of killing

[minor breach]

Carno needs one buff. its stomach drain is way too much

I can't spawn one as a new player and not die of starvation

[slim dragon]

Unneeded
Cera has 2600 functional hp when it's near a body

[foggy elm]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-skill-issue-skill-gif-24485644

[latent lotus]

lets nerf carno and not buff cera, cera matchups are fine other then carno (same for teno) carno is the problem

[livid crater]

gateway needs a huge balance pass in general for needs

hunger, thirst, stamina all need a balance pass

[latent lotus]

^

[slim dragon]

Not it just needs an acceleration and charge nerf
The fact it can reach top speed faster than galli, despite both of them being designed the same, is absurd

[foggy elm]

yea, but a body isnt always around. cera should either be faster than carno, or be able to actually fight carno. right now carno has more damage, speed, and stam

[slim dragon]

Cera being faster than carno would look and feel stupid
That's what I said, it only needs to make itself not worth the hassle to kill
That's what the vomit was originally supposed to be

[latent lotus]

i disagree with the accel nerf for 2 reasons, 1 it makes it impossible to do ambushes and 2 if it accels slowly then carno is actually charge dependent, it becomes a dino who charges, runs away, then turn back and charges again. not just my opinion, we saw that happening before

[foggy elm]

well, its already pretty hard to avoid charge + carno has infinite stam so. it needs slower accell

[latent lotus]

i say make charge harder to hit and stamina changes

[foggy elm]

^

[minor breach]

infinite stam? bro did you forget to turn off your hacks?

[slim dragon]

Well first, carno shouldn't be an ambusher because then it's just allo-lite or alberto-lite

The only thing making it unique is that it's a pursuit predator
But its bite could be buffed to compensate for a charge nerf

[latent lotus]

accel was stupid and made carno really bad for a couple updates

[foggy elm]

carno has more stam than cera, 2:30 seconds of stam

[minor breach]

right, so not infinite. sorry, under 20 hours new player. please use accurate language so i understand

[latent lotus]

charge nerf and bit buff makes carno still hit like a truck

[foggy elm]

sorry

[minor breach]

what if nothing about Carno is changed, except the charge stun only works on smaller animals by weight

[latent lotus]

cool i guess

[minor breach]

solidify it as a medium-small hunter

[livid crater]

right now, deino can pretty much ignore a cera if it gets attacked by one on land and just casually walk back to the water lmao. It probably shouldn't be like that

[latent lotus]

what u define as medium-small

[foggy elm]

make carno bite 150, make charge do more damage, make it so you have to hold charge for it to do knockdown and lots of damage, and give cera 180 bite force

[latent lotus]

cerato is technically a small mid tier

[minor breach]

carno size and smaller

[slim dragon]

Still needs the instant charge removed

[minor breach]

there's an instant charge? how does it work? 👀

[latent lotus]

but why if charge wont be a thing

[slim dragon]

Also charge already only works on smaller animals
The thing is, pretty much everything is smaller than carno currently

[minor breach]

i was working up a run before i charged

[latent lotus]

it works like W+RMB

[slim dragon]

Sprint for 0.1 second
Press RMB
Deal 350 damage and knockdown target

[foggy elm]

ALSO, let teno tailslam intercept charge again!

[latent lotus]

no he meant smaller SMALLER, like utahs and gallis

[latent lotus]

^

[foggy elm]

i think the biggest thing carnos should hunt its tenos, MAYBE a cera

[minor breach]

basically, make anything larger immune to stun

[slim dragon]

Apparently there never was a special "tailslam cancels charge" interaction
It's just speed and hitboxes changes that made it so charge is now much harder to intercept

[latent lotus]

how hard is it to make one?

[foggy elm]

there was

[slim dragon]

Nope, Lunary confirmed there wasn't (or maybe it was someone else from QA)

[foggy elm]

theres many videos where clearly it cancels the charge

[slim dragon]

It's not a special interaction
It's just hitboxes
And an adjustment made it harder to do, not impossible

[foggy elm]

really? if thats true, they need to revert the hitboxes

[latent lotus]

while theyr on that make charge's hitbox smaller

[foggy elm]

i get hit from 10 feet away

[slim dragon]

Charge hitbox has been nerfed recently
But desync makes weird things happen all the time

[foggy elm]

they can still make it smaller, to account for desynce

[slim dragon]

They shouldn't
Don't ever balance around bugs or things not functioning properly

[foggy elm]

also, nerf carno bite to 150

[slim dragon]

why ?

Charge is the issue, not bite

[foggy elm]

but desync isnt fixable, right?

[minor breach]

I think Predators would be more chill if there was more npc food sources

[slim dragon]

It is
Everything can be fixed, with enough time and the right tools

[foggy elm]

charge should do lots of damage, its to account for charge, nerf the bite

[minor breach]

more frogs, pigs, etc

[slim dragon]

We've seen what it leads to
Charge is extremely problematic, and the entirety of carno's gameplay revolves only around it

[slim dragon]

I'd be happy with AI being more common if it was also harder to catch, especially those which are free food right now

[foggy elm]

well, its an ambush tool. carnos an ambusher, make it have 60 second cooldown and buff the damage, make it need to charge up and remove insta charge

[slim dragon]

Here's the thing
It shouldn't be an ambusher

[foggy elm]

what should it be?

[slim dragon]

First, ambusher that needs to charge up its charge is beyond counter-productive

[slim dragon]

Pursuit predator

[keen plover]

? Ambush tool that needs a start up????
If you're balancing around ambushing, you want the tool to be effective

like pin / grab for example

[slim dragon]

You see a carno far away in the plains, you know you have 10 seconds to find cover before it runs you down and eats you

[foggy elm]

charge is an ambush tool. how can a quick kill tool be used for pursuit

[slim dragon]

It's only an ambush tool because it's instant for some goddamn reason

[minor breach]

like, just as a new player experience, spawning as a cool meat eating dinosaur and dying from starvation because theres no food is a bad end user experience

[slim dragon]

Run behind prey
Charge prey
prey can't run anymore
kill prey

[foggy elm]

thats an ambush predator

[slim dragon]

Nope
Ambush predators attacks their prey before the prey starts running

[thin mantle]

Literally isn’t

[keen plover]

I mean? You could nuke charge and give it a good turn radius to make it a pursuit tool. Not that I'd want that, but you can 100% make it that

[foggy elm]

pursuit is a slow killer, it chases down its prey for a long time

[thin mantle]

An ambush predator secured kills before the target has realized they’re in danger

[slim dragon]

No, that's endurance predator

[thin mantle]

Categorically no that’s an attrition hunter/endurance

[slim dragon]

Pursuit predators aren't common in the modern world so there aren't many examples to compare with, I guess sharks apply ?
Maybe some birds of prey too (btw fun fact peregrine falcons are goddamn ambush hunters in the sky they're just built different)

[foggy elm]

so explain the different between ambush, pursuit, and endurance

[slim dragon]

Ambush predator :

You see prey
Prey doesn't see you
Kill prey before it can react

Pursuit predator

You see prey
Prey sees you
Prey runs away
Actually you're faster
Kill prey

Endurance predator

You see prey
Prey see you
Prey runs away
Run after it
Run after it
Run after it
Run after it
Prey can't run anymore
Kill prey

Cheetahs, lions, crocs and actually most modern predators are ambush hunters

Humans and wolves are endurance hunters

Pursuit hunters are, again, something else which I'm not certain exist in the modern world
But that doesn't mean they can't exist, and in the case of carno, it'd be a perfect niche

[thin mantle]

Ambush predators kill unassuming targets that don’t have time to react to the fact that they’re being hunted before they die, most if not all predators will use ambush tactics because making a successful ambush is objectively the safest and most assured method of making kills, but that doesn’t make all predators ambush predators as most predators rely on it secondarily to their primary hunting strategy, wolves and cheetahs are good examples of this.
Examples of true ambush predators are like…most crocodilians, the majority of snake species, the majority of spiders, etc

Pursuit is a broad category in which other tactics fall into, attrition/endurance technically can fall into this category since by definition attrition hunters ARE pursuing targets but specifically over extended periods of time and usually without much continual exertion, like African wild dogs or Komodo dragons for example.

Pursuit predators that are not attrition hunters are like…the majority of cat species including big cats, black mambas (as an example of a snake) basically anything that chases another animal for hunting purposes.

[foggy elm]

what would cera be. id say more endurance/scavenger

[thin mantle]

Pursuit is just a bigger category that endurance falls within

[foggy elm]

https://tenor.com/view/lindooo-bananas-in-pajamas-gif-7285533

[slim dragon]

Cera is mainly a scavenger, then I'd say it's more of an endurance hunter
But tbh it shouldn't hunt that much
Just eat corpses, or animals that are too stupid to realize they can"t fight it off

[foggy elm]

what is a hyena?

[slim dragon]

You... don't know what a hynea is ?
It's like a super angry dog-thing from africa

[foggy elm]

no, what niche does it fulfil i mean

[thin mantle]

Ironically they’re more closely related to cats….somehow

[thin mantle]

Scavenger primarily, occasional attrition hunter

[slim dragon]

Hyneas are mostly scavengers
And... kind of endurance hunters too I think ?

[foggy elm]

so cera is an endurance/scavenger hunter

[thin mantle]

They’re more successful predators than lions

[tropic horizon]

Mostly endurance hunters, hyenas hunt most of their prey actually which is awesome

[slim dragon]

Cera isn't actually a hyena

[thin mantle]

Moreso a scav than hyenas for sure

[slim dragon]

It's inspired from hyenas in its niche and behavior, but it isn't a hyena
It's a ceratosaurus

[thin mantle]

Hyenas are way more effective predators

They live essentially like giant muscular cat baboons

In enormous groups often

[keen plover]

We've already seen endurance Cera. Would have been fine if it didn't lock inputs

[thin mantle]

Endurance cerato if significantly encouraged to be a predator makes diets hell to try to engage with

[foggy elm]

i loved endurance cerato

[keen plover]

I hated it

[thin mantle]

Like if you’re an animal bigger and slower than it you’ll just be consistently malnourished even if they can’t kill you

[keen plover]

Well only because of puking

[thin mantle]

I like it save for puking, I wish more animals had its kind of stamina economy

[tropic horizon]

I liked it for everything except for vomit lock and using its defensive ability as a hunting tool

[thin mantle]

Or even that it’s defensive tools are most effective when used offensively

Somehow

[tropic horizon]

Like bile should really just be a deterrent for things to not hunt it, not the thing that lands it the kill

[keen plover]

Better vs herbis than carni's lol

[tropic horizon]

Idk cerato is such a weird conundrum in design to me

[foggy elm]

NOW carno has more stam than cera, WHY?

[tropic horizon]

Yeah that’s something I hate

[thin mantle]

The only thing keeping it less effective than the pouncers and Carno is because everything I just listed is broken overpowered in some fundamental way

Otherwise Cerato is the best animal for actively hunting…in the game

[tropic horizon]

It feels as if they somehow managed to make cerato the exact opposite of what they wanted it to be

[slim dragon]

like carno

[thin mantle]

Slowly but surely also teno, but mostly through indirect means

[keen plover]

Bacteria isn't even necessary ngl. Body buff + CC resistance on bodies would have been enough

Endurance based as well

[thin mantle]

It also for some god forsaken reason has fracture resistance

[thin mantle]

Yup

[slim dragon]

That still baffles me xD
It's useless for all of its relevant matchups, just allows it to bully pachy better

[tropic horizon]

Because pachies are mean and scawy and would bully the poor cerato off it’s corpse

[minor breach]

what do you mean on bodies?

[keen plover]

So if a Carno charges a Cera on a body, it doesn't get stunned / knocked down. Same with Teno using a tail slam / kick

[slim dragon]

Cerato has a 50% damage resistance when it's near a dead body

[minor breach]

so....what im hearing is pick up a frog and carry it with me?

[tropic horizon]

Doesn’t work like that

[slim dragon]

I don't think it applies on animal AI corpses
Also I think if a body is carried it disables it providing the debuff
As stupid as it sounds that's how it works (although the body buff by itself is a bit weird)

[stark knoll]

The strength of the buff also scales with the size of the corpse

[minor breach]

ok so you mean a literal dead body of a dino

[stark knoll]

And yea I'm not sure if ai trigger it at all

[minor breach]

and standing on it just buffs the ceratosaurus?

[stark knoll]

Being near it yea

That's what the chuffing indicates

[minor breach]

huh

[tropic horizon]

The cerato starts 3 calling near a corpse to indicate it has the buff

[slim dragon]

The chuffing only happens when another dino is nearby, but cera gets the buff even when it's not chuffing

[thin mantle]

What’s funny is that fracture damage is effected by damage reduction, Cerato has 2 built in passives for ignoring fractures entirely

Like it doesn’t need the intrinsic passive when it has DR

[minor breach]

so the process for a cerato then is to kill something small and stay on the body? or hope to find enemies near dead bodies? it seems incredibly specific

[tropic horizon]

Imagine a pachyrhino not being able to fracture a cerato because of the resistance and body buff

Not that it would matter anyway

Would just be funny asf to see

[thin mantle]

4-5 tons of battering ram slamming into a Cerato with fortify active lmao

[thin mantle]

It can be a body of nearly any size I’m not sure of the upper lower limit of the dino body size, I do know that an Omni body gives you max DR

And you can carry and drop Omni corpses, makes for a very effective mobile buff for whenever you drop it

[minor breach]

so it does work to carry one with you?

[stark knoll]

Nope

It has to be on the floor for a while

[dusky surge]

i've honestly not had that much issue with it. Cerato still doesn't take stam to use its special ability, still has an insanely high scent range, still swims for a good time and speed, it's fine. If carno wasn't so powerful, cerato having lower stam literally would not matter, because it's the perfect scavenger

[distant torrent]

@minor breach not trying to be mean or anything, but I really don’t think carnivore should be a good pick for new players and be easy enough to where even they can find food and not starve

learning the map first and learning where migration zones are/where hot spots are should be highly recommended, and starvation should be a constant lingering thought along with when/where you should try earning your next meal. otherwise, it’ll take the challenge out of being a carnivore (as if there was any anyways with how overtuned certain playables are now and if you’re experienced and know what you’re doing lmao)

it’s unfortunate that hot spots are still a thing but they just are

north east being one of them

[minor breach]

I respect your input. Hear now my experience.
I have, today, hit 35 hours. I am very very new.
As a new player, the design of a game should be to help me learn the game. Sometimes this is done through tutorials, other times through other means.
I will assume that you know of game theory and good game design. So far my experience with carnivores was negative. Your message to me here is not on the front page, it is not on a guide anywhere that new players are handed. This is the source of my critique. As Carnivores are available to new players, it is not a good model or good new player experience to be forced to starve repeatedly

[distant torrent]

yea the game is very “learn it yourself” and “learn it from others” focused right now. I learned a lot by being nested in by other players when I first began playing, but the problem right now is

no one ever nests anymore lol

nesting is so awful in its current state

[minor breach]

as such, I think if the devs want brand new players to not be prevented from playing carnivores, there needs to be more food available, or the game will get bad reviews by new players who will stop playing because of the bad experience

thankfully, i have others i play with that keep me interested in the game, and thankfully gators are so easy to play right now that I've had some success. If I hadn't randomly selected deinosuchus, I wouldn't have any

maybe the food remains only small food, unable to sustain larger growths so that the infants dont immediately die from hunger. that could be one way. another could be to put carnivore food sources in the sanctuaries. there are many ways to impliment. i hope that at least one is taken

just had a thought, small food for carnivores to equivalate the player experience of grazing as an herbi. never enough to raise the belly above 10 but enough to not have game over screens repeatedly. maybe even lock it so that small food can't raise the carnivore belly above 10 or something

[distant torrent]

swamp sanctuary usually has people in it, and if it doesn’t, i recommend killing something and letting it lay out as bait to attract new players

corpses in swamp sanc is like a light for a bunch of moths lol it’s how I camp it just to be a dick when I’m troodon

I always see players north east and north east sanctuary

[minor breach]

please reread my balance feedback as i ask 'killing what?'
that was the issue. there was nothing
if I didn't have others irl to play with, i wouldn't even know to go off of sound cues. I'd be trying to smell for food and be failing
any suggested fix needs to be something that is obvious without veteran experience. this is an issue facing new players to be resolved, not something facing players with 500+ hours

[distant torrent]

going herbivore first is my recommendation to learn and be familiar with all of the sound cues with the current game we have now

you’ll have an infinitely better experience

until you get mowed down by overtuned omnis or carnos

[minor breach]

thank you for the suggestion. however i still think the t-rex is cooler than the stegosaurus, so in my uneducated state i still want to play carnivores, make loud noises, snap my jaws, and run around with earth shaking footsteps.
Gali is fun tho. I think the game balance would be better if there were more food sources for carnivores, and I don't get the reasons why there shouldn't be. it sounds like all the arguments against are by herbivore players who say 'better dead than alive' to any new player who might have interest in putting a carnivore on the map becuase it keeps herbivores more safe

I hope that my typing doesn't come across as anything personally targeted towards you. I'm just very frustrated as a new player by what looks like an impossible gap for mario to jump across, and the only answer when I say 'hey this seemingly impossible jump is causing me trouble' is responses by veteran players who don't see the new player perspective saying 'lol imagine playing mario. you should play something else'. it doesn't fix the gap that will cause trouble for other new players and result in less overall players in the game

[distant torrent]

giving more food sources would unfortunately allow larger groups to thrive more easily and create an even bigger gap in the herbivore to carnivore population. from my experiences playing carnivores:

starvation is hardly ever an issue if you’re a carnivore and stick around north east and know what you’re doing. I’ve kept my carno and omni alive in huge carno and omni packs and never once died from starvation (yet). it wasn’t even a challenge, it was just mow down whatever unfortunate player you see then benefit heavily from mobbing the poor guys. ai teno is a nice, easy full course meal. if they 1 call, just b-line it for them

I actually wouldn’t mind more food sources for carnis IF playables like carno and omni weren’t so braindead and easy to play and keep alive. AKA: them getting nerfed to not overshadow herbis or other carnivores of the roster

but I do get the frustration. just play herbivore and cycle through different playables to learn them. you can’t make the game too artificially easy, or else it’ll take less skill to play carnivores and you’ll see more megapacks of them running around and absolutely destroying everything

tutorials would be infinitely preferred over making carnivore life artificially easier with ai

more players on officials servers would be great so the map doesn’t feel as dead BUT

they’ve tried doing that, and it just causes the server to have a seizure

increase the server population to 120 from 100, and you’re looking at constant rubberbanding and ungodly high ping

I don’t even want to imagine what it’d be like if it was increased to 200..

[minor breach]

if carnivores could survive solo with more food, then wouldn't it decrease carnivores having to massive pack together to find and kill targets for food, thus reducing the strain on herbivores?

if living solo becomes easier, then the only reason for carnivores to gang together would be to fight, which then they might end up fighting each other more than the desperate target of need for food

[distant torrent]

nope. the mindset of most official server players are “kill everything.” I’m not even immune to this mindset. it’s fun as hell to create giant packs to mow down unfortunate players lol. you’re absolutely out of luck if you’re solo and found

a lot of players on officials are people and their friend groups on discord calls. they’re not going to be playing solo

[tropic horizon]

Wish it wasn’t that way so that playing solo was more viable but it is what it is

My friends refuse to play troodon with me and the solo troodon experience is uh well

If you intend to kill anything you have to be skilled, lucky, or going into sanctuaries

Otherwise if you wanna be a pacifist it’s pretty good

[tropic horizon]

I have had my fun with it though, killed this Omni who broke its leg while it’s friend tried to defend it from my little rat self

[distant torrent]

felt. I honestly only play troodon when I feel like making someone’s day at a sanctuary miserable lmao otherwise I never bother with that playable

[tropic horizon]

I play troodon because I like being a little gnat that if ignored can be lethal and also I love it’s sound design

I’d honestly recommend it for beginners, forgiving growth and hunger, not too much loss when you die, has its fun moments here and there it’s truly the beginner carnivore in my eyes (besides ptera)

[distant torrent]

ptera is my personal favorite carnivore playable

though I think it’d probably take a bit more skill to survive with for new players than troodon. once you get the hang of fishing and flight then I think it’s easier than troodon

[tropic horizon]

Cerato is my favorite because of my emotional attachment to it among other reasons but it is absolutely NOT a beginner dinosaur

[distant torrent]

agreed. I really like that not every playable is beginner friendly. it won’t be good design if something more powerful like rex or giga for example is beginner friendly lol you’d be seeing mostly those in every server

[tropic horizon]

Then again it’s kind of hard to stop beginners from playing the big guys, most beginners naturally would be attracted to the bigger creatures at least from my experience which is why you get influxes of them on animals like carno cera and deino

[distant torrent]

yea unfortunately a lot of players flock to the game with the mindset of “I want to be a big, bad dino and kill everything!!! stop adding small dinos! we need more big dinos!!!!”

[tropic horizon]

Then again people have wildly different tastes and different things peak others interests. But usually I find newer players on deino carno and other larger creatures

[tropic horizon]

Yeahhhhhhh it is unfortunate since the smaller ones have more potential to be better to play than the bigger ones

Like magy, an animal I don’t personally like is an animal I think would be far more interesting to play than literally any of the big apexes carnis played for the game

[distant torrent]

definitely

honestly, I want magy to be so poisonous that taking a couple of bites out of it as something that’s not supposed to be hunting it should genuinely result in death

like you can run it down and kill it for fun, but your fate is sealed

[tropic horizon]

I’d want it to be able to defend itself fairly well against smaller tiers and have the venom as a deterrent

And it will be an actual deterrent now since you’d have to burn a decent amount of stam to catch it which means more resource drain which means less incentive to kill something you can’t eat

[distant torrent]

if carni can ram magy, I will be very disappointed

[tropic horizon]

I’d want it to like

Bash carno with its shoulder to knock it out of its ram

[distant torrent]

probably won’t happen if it’s anything like teno’s slam vs carno’s ram

[tropic horizon]

One can dream

Also I swear if Diablo gets knocked over by carno…

Like HOW does that even work I know it’s weight based but you are NOT knocking that thing over

[distant torrent]

I’m still with the stance that dibble should not be knocked down or stunned at all if a carno rams it’s head

stunned at most if the body is hit but not knocked down

[tropic horizon]

Knocking down a dibble is on a whole new level of looney tunes magic

Carno should just

Avoid diablo alone

Maybe take it out in groups

[distant torrent]

agreed

[minor breach]

what if over a 15% belly was needed to grow to the next stage for carnivors, but increased ai food spawns only granted up to 10%?

[dusky surge]

i have good news, magy is smaller than carno, therefor it is now ram bait

[dusky surge]

what?

[distant torrent]

[dusky surge]

if you are 1kg smaller than carno you lose

this is what makes it such a great small game hunter

[distant torrent]

magy eats grass and dies I guess

[dusky surge]

anything smaller than carno does

[distant torrent]

I sure do love carno’s current balance state

I’m genuinely confused why carno is allowed to be the way it is

there’s no way this isn’t intended. no way it flies under the balancing issue radar lol

[dusky surge]

i cannot imagine how they expect diablo to be viable against carno besides granting it a unique knockdown resistance, which would literally just be saying "we know carno is a massive problem with its ludicrous knockdown range, but only diablo has an acceptable knockdown range against it"

[distant torrent]

it’s balancing choices like this that make me support servers being able to customize playable stats. literally the only reason

[dusky surge]

don't be a fool

server owners would make any herbivore reliant on fleeing

stego would be everything food, for instance

because they nerfed it due to constant complaints

[minor breach]

stego used to be stronger?

[dusky surge]

in U3 it was garbage, in U3.75 it was... okay, and it's been consistently okay-bad ever since

only reason people think it's OP is because it's big and does high damage

[distant torrent]

someone better get to correctly balancing carno then or else I’ll be a fool and be like a moth to a flame of server advertising a balanced carno

then be severely disappointed when all herbivores on said server are fodder

[dusky surge]

you can literally trot away from a stego and it cannot do jack squat

[minor breach]

idk, one was chasing down my troodon

[dusky surge]

wha

you can literally trot almost as fast as a stego can sprint as a troodon

[distant torrent]

if it was able to keep up with your speed, it was probably a hacker

[minor breach]

ive never played stego, so i don't know how much stamina they have. but it was closing on me when i was not sprinting

[distant torrent]

they’re common. I got mobbed by some speed hacking ceras just the other day

[dusky surge]

stegos have poor speed. Actually the worst groundspeed of any land-based animal

[distant torrent]

troodon has a slower trot speed than stego’s run I think? just run from it

but babies have a huge amount of stam

[minor breach]

just to confirm, z is walk, not z is trot (automatically on), and shift is run?

[distant torrent]

z is a toggle between walk and trot. trot is faster than walk, and yea shift is run

you gain stam slowly while walking but can’t gain it at all while trotting

[minor breach]

perhaps its just because im new, but i've seen very little obvious cheating or hacking

though some birds to seem to appear from nowhere and whack me

[distant torrent]

a favorite time for hackers to play is around 12 AM CST - 6 AM CST

it’s rare I see them outside of that general time frame

[distant torrent]

yea that’s just the annoying clunky ai scavengers

[minor breach]

nah nah, the fishing birds. players. not the body cleanup autospawns

[distant torrent]

OH the ptera players lmao

as a ptera player, i can confirm most of us are dicks and like pecking and screaming at people

[minor breach]

i eagerly await the day of poison spitting dinos so i can start shooting down those dang birds

[distant torrent]

lmao

[dusky surge]

only thing like that on the roster is hypsi

it spits acid

or the humans that have guns

those also work

[distant torrent]

I mean you can knock them out if the air, especially with jumping playables. with omni and troodon you can even snatch them out if the air with pounce

[minor breach]

yeah, but that wastes stamina. it'd be much easier to shoot at them

[dusky surge]

yea that'd be the generation 2 humans

[tropic horizon]

Nothing a good old 12 gauge can fix

[minor breach]

https://tenor.com/view/shots-fired-smoke-shoot-gif-15830209

[dusky surge]

there won't be AA guns, you have to shoot them down yourself

also hope to GOD nothing heard you taking potshots at the glorified seagull, which they absolutely did

no armoured tanks 4 u

[distant torrent]

every dino player will be drooling and frothing at the mouth and b-lining it towards gunshots the moment the noise is heard

[tropic horizon]

Troodon might just be the absolute bane to human players ngl

They’re similar in size except to oneshot a troodon as a human you gotta aim at a nearly untrackable target

Also it’s gonna be fun af to go into human bases through the vents as troodons

[dusky surge]

oh, they're intended to be

insane NV, extremely small size, high speed, venom

they were built for the intention of being humanity's worst nightmare

[minor breach]

door sized

[tropic horizon]

Can’t wait to terrorize them

[hollow canyon]

75 seconds of runtime unless something has changed

[minor breach]

What about a reduction of stamina cost for the spacebar jump of raptors? its hugely expensive as a movement option
I'd even say a reduction of stamina costs for all movement options. It feels a bit like a freemium game where i can only move more if i pay for a premium currently to fund my movement, with limited movement during a set time period for free

[minor breach]

well, cera isn't the biggest planned carnivore is it? will there will be something bigger than cera in the game at some point?
I'd actually like cera to be more focused as a medium and small solo hunter, with bigger carnivores and herbivores being too much for it. that would still include the deino's though, and the stegos and whatever other big apex predators are brought out

[dusky surge]

its not being focused as a small, medium or any hunter, because it's not designed as a hunter

it's a scavenger

[minor breach]

Right, i get cera and carno flipped

[coarse blaze]

I like cera as just a cera, a stout, capable and resilient scav.

I don't think it ever needs to be more than what it is

Also I know some folks don't like it but I like cera's waddle-esc walk, it doesn't need to try too hard to look spooky

[dusky surge]

<@&933486433342222376> i thought u guys would be interested in all this free money

[frail bobcat]

I want free Money too

[dusky surge]

u missed it

sorry

[slim dragon]

Ok but why would you pay for money anyway
Unless you pay less than what the money is worth
In which case it's still free money, just a lesser amount

Or you pay in blood or smth

Wait that's literally how blood donations work in the US
You buy money with your blood
that's cursed

[frail bobcat]

Can I sell other peoples blood too?

If yes, I have got a buisness idea

[slim dragon]

Uh
Technically you can
That's called being a hitman

[frail bobcat]

Its called being a vampire

Except you get money for it

[slim dragon]

Wouldn't you drink the blood for yousrelf if you're a vampire ?

I mean that's I would do
But I don't because I'm obviously not a vampire

And even if people tell you I'm a vampire, be sure that they're lying

Even if they show you proof
They're all fake

[frail bobcat]

I call it mandatory blood donations

[dusky surge]

would be if not for the presence of carnotaurus

(and omni by extension)

[shadow vortex]

And utahs. Try to catch them using only claw-attack while they are attacking ur tail lol

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/tv-shows-television-tackle-hug-hug-glomping-gif-14859564

[shadow vortex]

Oops

[tall bronze]

^ Carno when literally anything smaller exists

[dusky surge]

i beat u to the gun haha

but yea, teno solo is actually close to being good/fun

if not for the bastard animals

[tall bronze]

So what you're saying....is nerf the bad ones while also buffing Teno at the same time, skewing balance in the opposite direction only to do the same thing in the future and thus repeating the cycle

[dusky surge]

no

[tall bronze]

🫵

[dusky surge]

i will rend you asunder

[tall bronze]

👉👈

[slim dragon]

@balmy briar Normally, deino takes more damage on the head (50% more damage) and less on the tail, like every other dino.

It also has bleed resistance because crocs irl are very resilient to bleed, and because deino couldn't wallow in its first iteration (now it can submerge itself in mud so it doesn't matter anymore but they didn't change it)

Apart from that, yeah you can't really punish a deino who goes on land

Especially as omni

I guess you only can if you're playing as a group of carnos or a stego

[balmy briar]

so bassicly a deino fighting a group of 18 raptors, has the right to win that fight on paper?

i mean granted it was a shitshow of chaos

but that deino got pounces by 4 raptors at a time

and not 1 sec either

[slim dragon]

Well
Kinda ?
I mean yeah, deino is obviously OP
But even if it was nerfed, it should stay relatively resistant to bleed, it's not really a designated prey to raptors

[balmy briar]

it wasnt prey

it was us defending a nest of babies, and it just bulldozed trough the entire pack

[slim dragon]

Oh
Well that's an unfortunate situation

[balmy briar]

2% headshot dmg, all we need to "make it back off"

[slim dragon]

But the issue is rather than deino is massive
It has 8k hp
With it's bleed resistance, that's 16k effective bleed HP
So almost the equivalent of 3 full stegos

[balmy briar]

we cannot ever dream to kill it

[slim dragon]

That's more complicated than you think
To achieve that, either you increase omni's damage, which changes omni's matchup with every other animal, or you decrease deino's resistance, which changes its matchup with every other animal too

[balmy briar]

my problem is that it can just come on land and still not be punished for doing so (and im not talking river bank, im talking actually walking quite a bit from water)

the dehydration kills it faster then we do

even with a absolute barrage of clean hits

[tall bronze]

I mean I get where the concern comes from....but you can just not engage with it and walk away. If the concern then is that there's too many land Deinos, then that's an issue with how easy it is to amass adult Deinos rather than it being on land.

[slim dragon]

That is moreso because nothing on land is big enough to actually threaten a deino
Omnis aren't going to be killing one anytime soon
But if there was, for example, a rex around in the game, the deino probably wouldn't have taken the risk to go that far from water

[golden coral]

If you don't have a stego around, you're in for quite the fight, the best strategy would be to just delay and harass it until it has to go back for water or die

[balmy briar]

i dont plan to mixpack with a stego xD

im against mixpacking

[golden coral]

You don't have to, as long as one is around it should be a decent deterrent

[balmy briar]

letting a pt or a troody eat your food is one thing, but a pet cera carno or stego, no need

yeah i suppose, i did see stegos go for them on land

like without any reason they just switch R1 the deino , and it dies on land as it tries to crawl back

but 18 raptors , all that stam trade-off , think about it thats insane

a pack is designed to be 8, wich id say ok , that cant kill a croc, but nearly 1/5th of the server population gets solo'd XD

[slim dragon]

They got a reason to do it
The deino had no business being so far on land

[balmy briar]

thats my point!

i already carefully kill things as far from water as i can

[slim dragon]

But it's not the raptors job to push it off

[balmy briar]

there is nothing else we could do then abandon all the babies

and let the crocs feast on them

[slim dragon]

The fact you had a nest, as I said, is unfortunate
But under normal circumstances you could have just walked away and let someone else do the job

[balmy briar]

yes ofc, normally id leave

[slim dragon]

Or let the deino dehydrate itself to death

[balmy briar]

but i had to throw myself in between to protect the babies , cuz someone had the bright idea to nest in the middle of a field

and i do feel we should have been able to combat 1 croc

(situational with our packsize i mean)

oh well, il just have to run more tests and find a weakness or something that works i guess

and then il expose it

#fckcrocs xD

[slim dragon]

Well
Deino is kinda designed as being one of the worst matchups possible for raptors
So if you could kill one with a big enough pack... the replicator knows what you'd so to something that has no bleed resistance

[slim dragon]

The weakness is that they can't chase you

[golden coral]

@balmy briarYou can jump and I think you can nest on rocks and all. There's a "counter" that can help against things like this

[neon willow]

That's, rather unfortunately for the babies, darwinism in action. At least attempt to hide nests (yes I know it wasn't you who placed it)

If there wasn't a deino, it would be a pack of ceratos or stegos or rexes. Players just gonna take advantage of obvious weakness, which the nest is

[coarse blaze]

People really need to realize that not every playable is meant to fight every playable

Some playables should just die in a 1v1 and instead should flee over trying to fight. They don't need a way in, they don't need a work around.

Just like just because something has teeth and claws doesn't mean it'll kill every herbivore just because it's an herbivore.

[halcyon elk]

Precisely. Like in a 1v1 a carno will have a very tough time killing a diablo

[coarse blaze]

Despite diablos smaller size it for sure should be something to tackle

[halcyon elk]

Yea it's middle finger to the funny charge, and devastating charged attacks would make it undesirable to fight in a 1v1. Not to mention it's side stepping which could allow it to matador the carno.

[dusky surge]

@balmy briar in order to make omni do 2% damage per headshot, you would, mathematically speaking need to make its bite force over 105N. That's a rather hefty buff for a matchup it should never take in the first place, and would mean other matchups are even more biased towards it.

Or, you chop off over 3 tons from the deino in order to ensure that it's possible for an omni to fight. Either way, it's not great for balance

[coarse blaze]

I really hope the head negates the charge and that the head takes less DMG, I'm so excited for diablo and I have too high of hopes for the little tank.

[halcyon elk]

...oh boi do I have some news.

[coarse blaze]

That only frightens me

[dusky surge]

i hope it loses instantly to carno to ensure the status quo

[coarse blaze]

Ah yeah

[halcyon elk]

We do have footage of a diablo EATING a carno charge (albeit a sub carno). And iirc it has been stated diablos take less damage from headshot.

[dusky surge]

imagine if they took more lmao

not having a headshot multiplier immediately makes it better against carno

because carno loves that 475 damage nuke

[halcyon elk]

That definitely needs to be nerfed.

[dusky surge]

but will it tho

despite the fact that there exists two very specific animals which are leagues above the rest of the roster, will they actually ever be nerfed

the thinking man's question

although at least the next two carnivores really can't be that OP on account of the fact that herrera is a little 175kg gimmick bastard that climbs trees and vibes, and dilo has already got a list of weaknesses and is probably one of the game's most overhyped animals

[distant torrent]

my general motto for when things like maia come out is

literally why play something smaller in weight that can get demolished by the fastest ground playable on the roster that has an overly op ram you can’t dodge if the player knows what they’re doing

just flock to things that can’t be insta deleted and stunned/knocked down

[dusky surge]

fave part about maia's introduction is all the carno players who want carno to hunt maia too

because nothing is safe and nothing is sacred

[distant torrent]

can’t wait for maia to be nerfed to where it too can be stunned by a carno because it should obviously be a very powerful playable

[halcyon elk]

Maia just eats the charge like orange piccolo

[dusky surge]

https://tenor.com/view/dragon-ball-super-super-hero-orange-piccolo-gamma2-dragon-ball-super-dragon-ball-gif-27318313

you fool, mine is of higher quality

[halcyon elk]

Pov: Maia vs carno.

[dusky surge]

you think i'm NOT prepared for someone mentioning orange piccolo?

i'm always prepared for that situation

[halcyon elk]

A man of culture

I'd imagine Maia still has to deal with the nuke of damage. But the Maia can simply just fight back

[dusky surge]

anyway, yes, maia should destroy carnos and generally be a menace to most creatures but the existence of omni/troodon packs

and allo whenever that comes out but i choose not to think about that

[distant torrent]

I genuinely love teno, but man I’d love to have a herbivore that isn’t absolutely destroyed by the carnivore roster

[halcyon elk]

Diablo:

[dusky surge]

i mean, teno unironically is close. If carno and omni were on a similar balance scale to current cera, teno would be fine

teno v cera is legit a very engaging matchup

[distant torrent]

(currently having low hopes for diablo if carno doesn’t get a world of pain from ramming its head)

[dusky surge]

neither side obliterates the other

[halcyon elk]

Carnos only gripes is that it's charge is a nuke.

[dusky surge]

unironically, true

the rest of the animal is genuinely fine

[halcyon elk]

Considering diablo can two shot a dilo with its charged alts. (Dilo is 700kg). A carno will definitely be in a world of hurt.

[dusky surge]

i'd argue if the charge wasn't so brutal, it'd be perfectly fine and fun to deal with

[alpine plover]

i think carno can't really charge it, or maybe im not accurately describing it

[daring spindle]

Carno knockdown dmg should be nerfed a lot while also making it only knockdown things half its weight and lower imo

[dusky surge]

basically the best way of going about it

[distant torrent]

please

[dusky surge]

carno should still be a literal walking menace to anything small

[alpine plover]

i think what i mean is that carno cannot push dibble over

[halcyon elk]

The main issue with Omni is bucking. Not necessarily Omni itself.

[halcyon elk]

From the front a diablo that has used its block at the right time will eat a carno charge. But otherwise carno can knock diablo down

[alpine plover]

maybe it changed, i saw it in a vid

[halcyon elk]

Iirc the diablo eating the sub carnos charge was using the block ability.

[alpine plover]

maybe, whos video was it?

[halcyon elk]

I forgot exactly who.

[daring spindle]

It’s on poutine’s channel

[dusky surge]

@bright oasis my brother in christ just make it 900kg, easier for everyone to understand lol

it's exactly half carno's weight

[bright oasis]

i just didnt feel like doing it at exactly 900 felt right lol

[dusky surge]

855 is a gross number

just make it 50% of its weight lol

like its such a weird number

because knockdown/stun calculations are done on the basis of the creature's weight compared to opponent weight

50% is much easier to understand than, what was it, 47.5

which is literally barely a difference from 50% and only exists to be slightly more difficult to understand

[bright oasis]

i guess i could have made it 850 or 900, thats a fair complaint tbh

[dusky surge]

just make it 50% of carno's weight, or 900kg for an adult

[coarse blaze]

I love how carno can just ram into something of about same weight and knock it over - and also be perfectly okay, able to walk around just fine. If a person rams into a person to the same size you're both going to feel something.

[dusky surge]

i mean

carno aren't people

[coarse blaze]

You're not wrong but my point stands, it's real silly for something the same weight to fully knockover something of the same weight and just be perfectly alright.

You're hitting big weight and the bowling pin effect carno can do is so, so strange.

I think it's more so that carno doesn't always come to a stop after knocking down something large that gets me

[shadow vortex]

@vague steeple interesting idea but probs hard to implement, sadly. Devs doubtfully will ever rework all old creatures eh

[vague steeple]

Meh, head swipe wouldn’t be much harder than a Stego/Anky tail swipe(much less arc/area of effect). Just have the hit box only include an area that starts behind the head and end just before the shoulders, have it extend out rom the side about a head’s width or so outside the shoulders.

It would be quick and have a significant cool down so it can’t be spammed.

[eternal oak]

@weary glen well... kinda... but it could absolutely still be changed for the better

another thing about carno is that it just doesnt feel good to play. and the charge is still pretty overtuned

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message
"8 tenos beats 3 carnos"

incredible analysis

[weary glen]

That's the pack limits that's the analysis.

[golden coral]

It's also not quite correct, carnos work better in groups than tenos

And on top of that, balancing for groups is not how to approach it

[dusky surge]

"teno mains keep crying" already tells me all i need to know about the feedback

[slim dragon]

me when tenos cannot kill a single carno if the carno simply chooses to not engage them

[golden coral]

Charge is still a problem, as is the rest of carno, and teno has its own troubles

[dusky surge]

me when carnotaurus can also easily kill the teno if it chooses to engage it

[eternal oak]

id actually say teno has never really been a problem for the isle balance... good on the devs

[golden coral]

Teno is the golden standard

[dusky surge]

teno truly is the gold standard. It's either perfectly balanced or slightly weak

[eternal oak]

wish i could say the same for carno

[weary glen]

For the first time carno is okay in balance and hervies keep complaining cause u can't bully him now

Move on

[dusky surge]

no way

[slim dragon]

Carno is nowhere near OK in balance

[eternal oak]

carno was best in update 3

[dusky surge]

oh my god that's so funny

at no point has carno ever been bullied by herbivores, except by pachy, who was nerfed heavily in U6.5

[weary glen]

U clearly didn't play the game last update

[eternal oak]

carno was bullied by everything in update 6.5... and some other update before that...

[dusky surge]

i did

[dusky surge]

U6.5 it also destroyed everything in packs

because it is a consistent problem

[eternal oak]

not quite... trust me i played carno a whole bunch in 6.5 and packs were literally the only thing making carno not quite extinct

[golden coral]

Carno is nowhere near ok, if you think that, you clearly do not understand balance

[eternal oak]

and you always hate the pack argument so wth?

[golden coral]

Carno, like omni, fluctuates between being op or up

[eternal oak]

removed buck moment

[dusky surge]

i said "animals shouldn't be balanced around being restricted to pack animals", which is why i dislike U6.5 carno

[eternal oak]

nobody liked update 6.5 carno

[dusky surge]

terrible solo, insanely potent in groups, to the point that it needed groups to be viable

[eternal oak]

it sucked ass

[dusky surge]

it also was the strongest animal in the game in packs

which is the inherit problem that it has

[golden coral]

Because they just never change anything about the charge, which is the fundamental issue with carno

[dusky surge]

its so bizarrely balanced

[eternal oak]

well they did change the charge... and now were here

[dusky surge]

they didn't change the actual problem

so it doesn't really count at all

[golden coral]

Not really, they changed the accel. They need to adjust the knockdown and damage of the charge, not how fast you can use it or how the turn is

[dusky surge]

they gave an arbitrary cooldown that makes no sense on carno. If any animal needed a cooldown, it was deino

[golden coral]

Also yes, the cooldown does.... little to nothing to fix the issues

[eternal oak]

they improved its damage and nerfed bite in update 4. and made the charge slower and more agile in update 6

then the accel thing happened in update 6.5

[dusky surge]

if they would just nerf the carno's charge damage, they'd realise how the animal can be good without reliant on one skill

in fact, it's very well designed atm, it just has a horribly OP charge

[golden coral]

Changing the turn or accel isn't useful, changing the damage and knockdown is. And they what, changed the damage from 300 to 350, or if it was the other way around, not much of a difference and not enough to matter, especially not combined with the knockdown

The entire issue lies in the knockdown plus the damage, which in combination with multiple carnos becomes something you can't defend against very well, if at all. Unless you're just immune to the charge like a grown stego or deino

[eternal oak]

i dont know why they changed the turn/speed of carnos charge in the first place. just made the thing feel terrible to play

same with damage

[golden coral]

You could let the charge keep the accel, give it U6 level of turn, as long as you turn the damage down to 150, and put the knockdown threshold down to 900 kg or so

[dusky surge]

probably because the old charge was pretty much unusable in pursuit

[eternal oak]

it shouldnt be the absolute best pursuit tool. thats what the bite is for

[dusky surge]

then charge has little use in its kit

[golden coral]

Disagree personally, the charge is the pursuit to me, the bite is more for finishing the target off, or to defend yourself when you can't charge

[dusky surge]

^

[eternal oak]

eh. a secondary attack that does more damage makes sense to me

[golden coral]

But it's not a secondary attack? It's the main thing?

[eternal oak]

it shouldnt be

but yeah... it is...

[golden coral]

That'd be an alt attack instead, which is a secondary attack in a sense

Omni pounce is it's main thing, carno charge is its, pachy ram is its, troodon pounce is its

And so on, they're all the "main" attack you use and are meant to use

[eternal oak]

carnos charge shouldnt be the main attack. we all know how that ended in update 6

[golden coral]

Teno is the only playable that has what could be considered properly secondary attacks

[dusky surge]

the issue is they've delved far too into making it the main attack

[golden coral]

Since stego can only jab if it wants to be useful

[eternal oak]

yeah

i agree

[golden coral]

Right, now what would have happened if we kept U6, but put damage down to 150, and threshold for knockdown down to 900 kg?

[dusky surge]

the charge should have utility as a tool to stop fleeing prey and finishing them off

[frail bobcat]

@weary glen Have you ever been interactive-gameplayed from 10 meters away? Its about as fun and balanced as it sounds

[eternal oak]

carno would have been roughly the same. just less damage.

[frail bobcat]

Me want

[golden coral]

So no longer being able to knockdown cerato, teno, as well as having to multiple charges to get the same damage as one before, would not have changed the matchups at all?

[eternal oak]

cerato wasnt in update 6

[dusky surge]

i love how the term for getting chargespammed by a carno is now "interactive gameplayed"

[eternal oak]

that was 6.5

[golden coral]

... But if it had, you get the point, no?

Since we know it's 1300 weight

[eternal oak]

i dont get it...

carnotaurus update 6 but nerfed damage right?

[golden coral]

The entire point I'm making is that U6 carno with accel/turn to make charge into a pursuit tool, while limiting it's attack power and knockdown ability, would make it much more tolerable

[eternal oak]

would have been the same just took longer to kill crap

[dusky surge]

not really, no

[frail bobcat]

Its not chargespammed, its being obliterated by something that was standing in your face less than a second ago. Also, I am the one to cone up with that phrase

[golden coral]

Because now you can no longer knockdown cera/teno, they'd have a better chance to fight back, even vs multiple carnos

[dusky surge]

tenonto could defend itself from it, and other creatures wouldn't be instagibbed by it

[eternal oak]

are we talking about the same update 6...

[golden coral]

And the carno would have to waste more stam for charges for the same damage

[golden coral]

I think so? But maybe not

[eternal oak]

im talking about organs update 6

[dusky surge]

yea, an U6 with a carno of those stats would have a balanced carno

[mint star]

carno being in line with deino's 50% weight requirement for attacks to land

[dusky surge]

that'd be nice

[frail bobcat]

Your pfp scares me

[golden coral]

I'm thinking of when carno had really good turn radius on charge, but also had the shadow carno hitboxes?

[frail bobcat]

Nvm, its cute

[mint star]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/275436245318893568/1182498626359017602/image.png?ex=6584eaaa&is=657275aa&hm=14dcfe18b930286da7596f24f276979aa805919d8014ca90d88781edfb2d65ba&

[eternal oak]

ok same update then

heres the thing about that... carno was really really really really really very much a lot overpowered that update

although that was mostly cause of those classic isle hitboxes

[dusky surge]

yea, and i genuinely think it's stronger now

[golden coral]

Well, I stand by that a carno that has to get into melee range of a teno or cera without being able to knock them down/CC them, is a carno that will be in for a much harder fight overall. Hence changing knockdown threshold and damage while keeping really good accel and improving/having very good turn radius on the charge for pursuit would allow for a carno that is terrifying vs things that are properly smaller while not letting it just shut down larger things even in groups as easily.

[frail bobcat]

Way stronger

Three carnos can fight a stego in the open now

If the stego is not very good, which most stegs arent

[dusky surge]

current carno has better sprint duration, better hunger drain, better acceleration, faster charge and more

[eternal oak]

i took on a stego solo as carno in update 6...

[dusky surge]

you can probably do that now

[golden coral]

Yes, because A, the hitboxes, which is a different issue, and B, because of the massive damage + knockdown. And I said that if we removed most of the damage and lowered the knockdown threshold, that carno would have been balanced.

[eternal oak]

until like 12 other carnos showed up

[frail bobcat]

Did the person have the same brain capacity of the thing they were playing?

[eternal oak]

i think it would just get bullied by everything then... specifically omni. and cera when it comes out assuming these changes stayed for update 6.5

either that or it bullies omni way to much

really depends

[frail bobcat]

Why? It still can knockdown a omni and bite it to death

[dusky surge]

it's not really an issue if carno is a considerable threat for smalltiers, it absolutely should be

[eternal oak]

it should be considerable but not straight up nuking them

[golden coral]

No really, you'd still have a very good charge for turn so you can run after the omnis, and if we also used current accel, it'd be just fine. And well, cera should kind of bully a carno, not like you couldn't still do hit and run or have a friend. And omni can still run and juke, so it'd be fine too most likely. But we could adjust accel/and turn for charge to fit pursuit if needed.

[dusky surge]

charge stam needs reduction, it's far too costly

[golden coral]

The entire point is that U6 carno was powerful primarily, aside from bugs and issues, due to damage + knockdown that allowed, and still allows, it to just control things way too good.

If you can't just "nuke" via charge over and over, you're suddenly a lot more limited as carno

[eternal oak]

and i think the whole +turn on charge just feels really weird... like a guided missile that knocks down rats and kills them almost instantly

[golden coral]

Small game pursuit predator, I'm not sure how that's so weird?

Is it any less weird than knocking things like teno on it's rear, that is almost as heavy as carno itself?

[eternal oak]

what would dilo do against that carno?

[frail bobcat]

Forest

[golden coral]

Stay the hell away from open plains at day

[frail bobcat]

Die

[golden coral]

Come out at night and be within touching distance without the carno knowing

[frail bobcat]

Build a sky base

[dusky surge]

dilo should absolutely be carno food in the day

there is no universe i see where dilo should have a remotely favourable matchup in that situation. Stay away from carno's hunting grounds until night hits

[eternal oak]

exactly. but that could count for all small game except like... omni and galli... maybe troodon but troodons kinda weird

[golden coral]

It could, but it also depends on their capability to juke

An omni can juke a carno, even a good turning carno

[dusky surge]

galli should absolutely be carno food, carno should be one of the creatures that is the greatest threat to them

[golden coral]

A dilo might be able to as well for all we know

[frail bobcat]

Galli can just use the power of friendship and run faster, so it is kinda safe

[golden coral]

And yeah, galli just goes straight line and that's the end of that

[frail bobcat]

A solo galli is danger

[eternal oak]

but carno shouldnt be good at turning... thats like one of the key factors about carno. very fast. at the cost of significant turning

[golden coral]

Problem is, we've tried that, it doesn't end up well balance wise

As we can see, because when you limit turning, you return that with power, and then that power is used vs things where you don't need good turning

[eternal oak]

carno balance was fine in legacy and its early release in evrima

[golden coral]

Hence cera and teno dies

[eternal oak]

became an issue in update 4 when the buff to charge happened

[dusky surge]

legacy? yea, it was def better. EVRIMA? It's never been balanced well

[serene depot]

Sorry to interrupt but does anyone know if you are able to play new map Gateway on steamdeck? Is it open on beta?

[eternal oak]

it was balanced in update 3 id say

[golden coral]

To be fair, early Evrima had all kinds of balance issues, carno was probably not as "offensive" back then, when we had stego 4T, dryo and omni health values being off, omnis going lightspeed and teleporting, and so on

And legacy is legacy... not a good comparison

[eternal oak]

well your point was we tried not good turning carno and it didnt work... not well turning carno did work in legacy

[frail bobcat]

There was a entirely different combat system

Based around turning

[golden coral]

You can opt into Evrima, and that should put you on Gateway. Or opt into the spiro branch if you want to remain there.

[eternal oak]

true but not so different at least specifically about carno

still a hit n runner

[golden coral]

Legacy carno also didnt have a nuke charge... xD

Maybe I should have clarified that, but I was talking about Evrima carno, legacy is obviously different

[frail bobcat]

Meh, its a brawler now

[eternal oak]

it shouldnt be brawling anything

[frail bobcat]

Interactive charge does do it favor here

But it is

[dusky surge]

it's the best brawler in the game atm tbh

teno and cera be damned, they will get bodied in a brawl against this guy

[eternal oak]

carno = brawler... really shouldnt be happening should it

[frail bobcat]

But it does

[dusky surge]

but it is, because of the charge

[eternal oak]

im not saying it isnt

[frail bobcat]

Because funny interactive charge isle balance moment

[eternal oak]

it just really shouldnt be brawling anything

[dusky surge]

you can lower its agility or whatever, but it'll still be an excellent brawler

[frail bobcat]

Because if you are not licking its toes, then you can be charged and obliterated like a rabbit dropkicked from the Empire State Building

[eternal oak]

well if the charge agility is lowered right. it will be easier to dodge. therefore kinda useless if whatever you are fighting is competent enough to dodge. unless you know what you are doing and actually know how to aim. and carno shouldnt be very tanky. it just is right now because its the biggest thing on the roster for land carnis aside form the occasional land deino.

[dusky surge]

no, not really

[frail bobcat]

Its the acceleration

[dusky surge]

the accel still would allow it to nuke you, along with the damage and knockdown range

the agility merely makes it an inconvinience

[eternal oak]

the acceleration is fine if carno has to lower its head before damage and knockdown is induced

[frail bobcat]

If you can charge from 10 meters away, it doesnt matter how agile you are if you dont have time to react

[golden coral]

And that doesn't fix the synergy in groups, which is the second issue

[eternal oak]

if you dont have time to react within 10 seconds im sorry but... be more aware of the 1800 kg predator sprinting towards you.

[golden coral]

What you're doing is making carno worse solo, without fixing the scaling in group

[eternal oak]

carno was good solo... in update 3...

[golden coral]

10 meters and 10 seconds are not the same thing... xD

[eternal oak]

damn im blind...

[dusky surge]

a carno can travel 10 meters in less than a second lol

[eternal oak]

makes sense it is a carnotaurus... pretty fast and all that...

[dusky surge]

yea but dying in 10 meters from a standing carno

not fun

[eternal oak]

how about... not going that close to the carno...

[dusky surge]

carno is fine just never be close to it or die

[eternal oak]

if its on a plain it would be pretty easy to notice

[dusky surge]

its fast enough to get close to you but that's ur fault

[eternal oak]

thats why it should also be unagile enough for you to dodge it

[golden coral]

Which, if you have accel, won't matter

[dusky surge]

^

[golden coral]

That's the point, you catch up, and sure, if the carno just keeps running at you, you can dodge

[dusky surge]

inagility isn't solving the problem at all

[golden coral]

But it won't, it'll stop next to you, then start circling you and all that, and you don't know when it might charge

Because it can charge from right beside you, at any moment

Like how an omni can pounce

[narrow lodge]

Just make it so Carno can't turn at all, definitely the solution

[dusky surge]

lowering its goddamn nuke damage to actually specialise in that small game its meant to hunt and not wiping ceratos so hard they go extinct a second time would be ideal

[eternal oak]

inagility does solve the problem. it did aswell in update 3... yes im referring to update 3 again

[golden coral]

Lower damage and knockdown, and you have the problem solved

[eternal oak]

multiple times youd see carno miss the charge

[dusky surge]

U3 carno was literally one of the strongest animals in the game, only threatened by tenontos who actually used to be good at one point

god forbid

[eternal oak]

it was also threatened by stegos and deinos. or the occasional competent omni

[dusky surge]

THREATENED BY STEGOS

[golden coral]

Did carno have current accel back then? Did it solve the group issue? Did carnos actually need to use the charge back then? I honestly don't recall, it's so long ago xD

Wasn't stegos back then outright terrible?

[eternal oak]

not quite no

[golden coral]

And then we had the funny thagomizer bug at some point too

[dusky surge]

CARNOTAURUS

UPDATE 3 CARNOTAURUS

THREATENED BY UPDATE 3 STEGO

WHAT

[eternal oak]

yeah

update 3 stego was fine.

at least against carno

[golden coral]

Well if that stego was fine, current one is even better

Much less earlier update before carno accel

[eternal oak]

current stego is also fine... aside from omni anti attack

[dusky surge]

from the creator of
"how about... not going that close to the carno..."
and
"if its on a plain it would be pretty easy to notice"

comes the new, baffling statement:
"it was also threatened by stegos and deinos. or the occasional competent omni"

Update 3 stego was garbage

Current stego is also pretty garbage

[eternal oak]

there werent any other creatures to thereaten it at the time

aside from teno but you mentioned that

[dusky surge]

4 omniraptors could kill a stego in a single group pounce

it was actually quite simple to kill stego back then with omni

[eternal oak]

yeah... with omni

[dusky surge]

i fail to see what your point is

[eternal oak]

stego v omni isnt what im talking about... im talking about carno being nicely balanced in update 3

[frail bobcat]

Now, it takes two

Group pounces

[dusky surge]

i dont think it was, i just think you have insane nostalgia for old updates

most of your feedback posts are "revert this to this update"

[eternal oak]

well... maybe... i did really like a lot of balancing from update 3... and update 4 graphics were AWESOME

so yeah you might have a point there

[frail bobcat]

Wasnt update 3 balance the omni damagebased pounce?

[golden coral]

Balance back then was all kinds of bad, not that current are neccesarily better, but there's been issues throughout every patch more or less

Similar to old prog really

[dusky surge]

yep

[eternal oak]

well... i should probably be more specific then... update 3 carno is what i liked...

[dusky surge]

U3 was also the update where dryo was unironically one of the game's strongest animal

okay... but what worked in update 3... won't work in every update... because things, such as roster, environment and the balance of other creatures change...

[eternal oak]

might be worth a try though... at least with carno

[dusky surge]

or we can NOT do that, because it will not work

[frail bobcat]

What did carno in u3 do?

[eternal oak]

higher bite force. lower charge dmg. charge was faster at the cost of turning.

[dusky surge]

different stamina system, different nightvision system, different roster members, different mechanics

old U3 carno did full damage and knockdowns on tail hits

[frail bobcat]

Sheesh

[eternal oak]

there was no nightvision in update 3

[dusky surge]

in U3, carno got breeze your tail, and you'd take the full brunt of the damage and the knockdown

[dusky surge]

like i said, different NV system

[eternal oak]

i dont actually thnk there was night in u3

[dusky surge]

there absolutely was wtf

[eternal oak]

was there? i think it was only added in update 4... maybe night and day just looked real similar in u3

idk

didnt really matter much back then

[odd pebble]

@weary glen soooo... Just eat grass and die, yeah?

[weary glen]

Yeap, tenos eat grass, carnos gotta eat some meat

[tropic horizon]

Carno is not okay at all in this update I don’t know what you’re getting at

“Punching bag creature” I don’t think there’s been a single patch where carno has been that way but okay dude

[weary glen]

Everyone has his opinion, but not everyone has the skill nor knowledge to the subject in order to judge correctly.

[halcyon elk]

Carno kinda only has ONE issue that makes it overtly overpowered. It's gadamn charge damage.

[tropic horizon]

I’d say I can pretty accurately judge this game, got plenty of time on it, played it almost every major patch, tested loads of combat with my friends during those patches

[halcyon elk]

Do you believe that carno should win the 1v1 with diablo?

[tropic horizon]

It’s charge damage coupled with the fact that it’s literally instant

[halcyon elk]

True

[tropic horizon]

Damn bro such skill to just

Hold W for one second and barrel someone over

Totally not an issue whatsoever

[odd pebble]

I wouldnt mind the insta charge if it didnt open the door to the 100% certainty to delete your playable in 2 secs

[tropic horizon]

Exactly that’s the main issue