balance-feedback-discussion

[sonic flame]

Even so, Omniraptor was going to be the "base value" animal at the time

1000 in every stat

but that ended up not sticking around because you had huge discrepancies in animal stats over growth and between species

Deino in particular is a strange case because its adult weight is so high despite the animal being a pancake

tho it being tanky for its size is kind of expected imo

Usually no, if a small creature is awfully light it's usually balanced around that

it's why Dryo/Hypsi don't have damage res for example

hell, even Pachy doesn't, it does have bleed res, but that's more a band-aid to try [and fail] to help it cope with Omni's absolutely busted pounce bleed

[slim dragon]

The issue is that resistance is much more related to a creature's build rather than its size
If you take 3 different animals that all weigh 80 kg for example :
-Human
-Boar
-Deer
And you shoot a bullet into their body

The human dies instantly or after a few minutes
The deer survives but will probably die of hemorragy after a few hours
The boar gets angry and mauls you

[slim dragon]

And then ptera can 2-shot another

[sonic flame]

yeah and that was intended as well because it couldn't just be made a fish eater, it HAD to have the damage to theoretically kill things, despite being able to hit them while flying

tho with all the super smalls in general, it doesn't really matter imo how their mirror matchups play out

like Ptera can fly, Hypsi can [eventually] climb, most of them can burrow or simply run fast etc

and you are rarely if ever actually encouraged to throw hands as them

[slim dragon]

The issue is humans fall under the category of those extra smalls
The category that have fights based mostly around one-shotting each other

[sonic flame]

and it seems people prefer having the damage to punch up a little bit, at least theoretically, then being able to take multiple hits from their own species

I'ma be real

I totally expect most guns to 1 shot other humans without bullet proof armor on

[dusky surge]

which they 100% should

[sonic flame]

outside of that tho, humans had what, 15, 20? damage on their punch

[slim dragon]

And then firearm damage poses a problem
Should a human survive a rifle shot to the leg ?
For me it's yes
Assuming hitting the legs of a human only deals 50% damage

[sonic flame]

that's like a 5-6 shot vs each other for fisticuffs

[slim dragon]

Which means most if not all bullet-based weapons will deal under 200 damage

[sonic flame]

honestly, I don't see how firearm damage poses a problem when you can easily just

[dusky surge]

god yes

[sonic flame]

give them a unique damage system, like allowing for organ shots

[dusky surge]

that sounds like bliss

[slim dragon]

Which also mean you'll need AT LEAST 2 headshots to kill an omni with the strongest weapon you have

[sonic flame]

Well, you're discounting something

two things actually

[slim dragon]

So the whole thing that was made to prevent having additional values and damage systems can be fixed with a new damage system... perfect

[sonic flame]

First: Shotgun/Semi-auto either shoot many bullets at once or in rapid succession, mitigating this issues
Second: Bullets as a whole could simply take organ shots into account, as has been discussed previously

[frail bobcat]

the hunter: call of the isle

[sonic flame]

The system was made for dinosaur balance, humans don't fit cleanly into it

[frail bobcat]

imma get those double lungs on them carnos

[sonic flame]

which is why they aren't just gonna be "upright dino holding guns" mechanic wise either

[slim dragon]

I... really don't trust in the viability of organ shots in that game
Hitting the legs versus hitting the body of a creature is already unreliable as hell

[sonic flame]

That's fine but ultimately irrelevant as it is both an arbitrary suggestion to alleviate the issue of a headshot not dealing enough damage, and has no bearing on the initial 'problem' of creature build

[slim dragon]

They sure as hell don't
And that's my entire gripe
If humans were planned from the start, why weren't they taken into account when making the core mechanics of the game ?

[frail bobcat]

gets tailshot

mister, your brain is actually in your tail and now you are dead

[sonic flame]

Because humans have different core mechanics?

[slim dragon]

It's healthbars we're talking about here

Unless humans have an entirely different health system the problem is gonna remain

[sonic flame]

yeah and I fail to see the issue since the human guns can just interact with the healthbars differently, which I'd honestly expect given they are already gonna be so different

like what is the issue here, humans being too frail or?

[slim dragon]

Small creatures in general being too frail, large ones being too tanky

Obviously these are problems you're gonna encounter with any system involving health bars... But that one is not a thing that can be changed anymore

[sonic flame]

Yeah that was known and promptly disregarded since you can scale damage to relative size if you care about mirrors, and generally animals shouldn't be hitting above the belt unless they are given unique tools to do that

like it is considered a complete and total non-issue that something like a Dryo is significantly less tanky than a Pachy, and deals a fraction of its damage, as it, and basically every other small in the game, have baked in methods of avoiding a fight

smalls being frail is a legit issue if they are expected to take hits

[slim dragon]

I'm not saying extra smalls should be allowed to go toe-to-toe against larger one either. But the ones who can and should, they're given absolutely crazy damage values to be able to do so

[sonic flame]

generally it is already a loss if you are taking damage tho

[slim dragon]

And they end up absolutely obliterating other things in their size range

[sonic flame]

I'ma be real, that's only been an issue with mr Omni "pounce lol" raptor

[slim dragon]

Troodon too now
The only two punch-up animals

[sonic flame]

Pachy was intended to body most things in its size since even a glancing blow from a ram gives instant fracture to others of the size

Troodon is signiciantly less of an issue if it weren't for the current pounce blocking attacks thingy

yeah it's damage is strong but unlike Omni it's not as fast, significantly less bulky so even tail blows are likely fatal, and its small size makes it easier to incercept when it is pouncing at you

hence why Teno players could regularly smack down entire packs by just using alt attack

[slim dragon]

Troodon is not an issue balance-wise
It is logic-wise
Like the game basically tells you "you should only go after things that are around your own weight or a bit higher if you're designed for it"
"Except the little rat that does damage equivalent to 6x its max health on every attack"

[dusky surge]

its a shame that omni shreds it in one pounce and its speed is honestly too low to actually provide that needed pressure on smalls

[sonic flame]

Troodon isn't that much stronger than other animals its size until the venom kicks in

[slim dragon]

Yeah I guess the venom plays a role in it
But the amount of punch-up potential troodon has is so huge

[sonic flame]

Yeah, due to the venom giving such a huge damage boost

otherwise it'd be like "nice, 15 damage"

Only 8 more hits and that Dryo is a goner

[slim dragon]

In strength relative to size ratio, troodon is by very far the strongest animal in the game

[sonic flame]

Yeah no question there, but that's fine since its strength relies on its venom, and even with the venom it relies on numbers to really press that advantage

a solo Troodon is a non-issue for most animals larger than Dryo, and the only reason Dryo struggles is a lack of reliable attacks [I don't think the new alt attacks will change this much]

Omniraptor is the problem animal because individually it's insanely strong, and in a group it's even worse

[slim dragon]

Unless they make it deal something like 200 damage I guess it won't
Oh and there's also the opposite issue of beipi

When you make a small animal with no punch-up potential
Then it's attacks deal abysmally low damage

[sonic flame]

Beipi's damage is as low as it is because while it's suppose to be aggro to stuff that gets in the water with it, it's not supposed to be like, lethal to things larger than it

tho at base it's actually stronger than Troodon

[slim dragon]

Isn't beipi's claw like only 20 damage ?

[dusky surge]

i mean, i guess? but at the same time, it's pretty goddamn weak, since its speed is so low, most creatures can just... leave

[sonic flame]

and Troodon's got a mean 15

[dusky surge]

honestly beipi with 30 damage would not be offensive

[slim dragon]

Troodon is also quite a bit smaller
For almost the same amount of damage

[sonic flame]

Beipi is also as strong as Dryo, who is a good deal bigger

[slim dragon]

More of a problem with dryo and its complete lack of offensive tools

[sonic flame]

It wouldn't be an issue, it's mostly just a lack of reason to give it great damage

[dusky surge]

i mean, with dryos coming kick and tailswipe, we'll see about that

dryo about to go goddamn on the offensive and i love it

[sonic flame]

like Beipi, as it stands, is very lethal to anything even up to like Omni sized that gets in deep water with it

on land it's less formidable because of its low speed and agility, coupled with damage that doesn't make punching up reliable

but that's kind in character for it, Beipi isn't meant to be a significant threat out of the water, not really meant to be much of one in the water either

[slim dragon]

Speaking about beipi, when are its attack keys gonna be changed to something that makes sense ?
And when is the character screen gonna be changed to display useful info instead of just biteforce ?

[sonic flame]

The character screen displaying biteforce is something that has always and will always annoy me, but it's sticking around for the time being

personally I'd swap it for a general "Attack power" stat to show how powerful you are relative to a prime adult

i.e. "70%" would mean you are dealing reduced damage compared to a prime adult, either due to diet or being a younger animal

tho it's a non-issue, the ui as a whole is still in need of an update

Can you elaborate on the attacking keys, I'm assuming you mean how peck and the claw swipe swap keybinds in/out of water

[slim dragon]

But that's a bit useless no ?
In most cases it would be the same as your growth percentage or displayed with diet debuffs

[dusky surge]

god the beipi's attacks enrage me

left click and right click should do the same goddamn thing in and out of water

[sonic flame]

Yes, but it also still gives some indication of how powerful you are at the moment without giving a direct attack number

[sonic flame]

I agree, but that is a fight I lost lol

[dusky surge]

the fact that they swap inputs for claw and bite depending on if you're in and out of water will never not be awful

[sonic flame]

I wanted peck on LMB, claw on RMB all the time, and the reason it's not like that is something along these lines

[slim dragon]

Wait it isn't just an oversight ?

[sonic flame]

No it was specifically added, that's why it is the only animal that does that

you can't "oversight" an entirely unique mechanic

[slim dragon]

But why then ??

[sonic flame]

The thinking goes because peck is useless out of water

[dusky surge]

okay but like

[sonic flame]

but in water it catches fish

[slim dragon]

Huh ?

[sonic flame]

so in water you want it on LMB to fish, since that's why you are in the water

[dusky surge]

you know how to make sure more people use the more useless attack?

[sonic flame]

but on land you want the claws

[dusky surge]

by binding it to the same key as claw

[sonic flame]

Oh no one is worried about people not using peck

you HAVE to if you want to catch fish, it's the only way Beipi can do that

[slim dragon]

So... with eveyr dino you're supposed to swap between pressing RMB and RMB to adapt depending on what you want to do but with beipi for some reason you're supposed to only press LMB ?

[sonic flame]

I think it was more like

[slim dragon]

By the replicator Hypernova you gotta reach up to the devs and win that fight

[sonic flame]

"Primary attack is supposed to be useful"

'lmao' - Every herbivore

[dusky surge]

LMB should always be bite imho

[slim dragon]

That's exactly what I was thinking

[sonic flame]

Regardless, the choice was made that Beipi bites in water to catch fish and on land it claw swipes and you have to use RMB to swap to the "useless" option in that context

[slim dragon]

Also when are bites going to start costing stamina ? I'm tired of those different treatments for no apparent reason

[sonic flame]

tho Beipi is also unique as it is the only animal to have a move with literally no purpose

[slim dragon]

Ptera:

[sonic flame]

Never, it's part of the core design, primary attacks can be used while moving and cost nothing

[slim dragon]

So herbis just get screwed again ?

[sonic flame]

All of Ptera's attacks server different purposes, you cannot alt bite while flying, swimming, or sprinting

[slim dragon]

I was talking about the latch

[sonic flame]

Eh, even that has a few purposes, if niche, but I was referring to the animal's attack abilities

[dusky surge]

with the newfound ability to land on branches, i don't think latch has ever been more useless

[sonic flame]

you could already land on top of all trees

shoutouts to update 3-6.5 Pteranodon players who can land on top of trees

[slim dragon]

I could but it's much easier to land on rocks and has the same effect

[sonic flame]

Honestly the only reason the herbivores don't have stronger bite attacks is just because they don't, it's arbitrary afaik and could probably be easily changed if not for "muh immersion"

Like theoretically

[slim dragon]

But the tree hitboxes are super weird and don't reflect what the model looks like

[sonic flame]

nothing stopping Teno's bite from dealing like 130 damage

[dusky surge]

im still excited for the apparent devestatingly painful bite of the proto

[sonic flame]

aside from people would go "why does plant eater have strong bite!!!"

[slim dragon]

15 dmg is the best I can offer

[sonic flame]

given that's an attack Proto is meant to be using while sparring face to face, I could see Proto's bite dealing like idk

80 damage? Max?

[dusky surge]

80 damage is exceptionally based

[slim dragon]

so oneshot another proto

[sonic flame]

Proto is like 120 so no

[dusky surge]

i want to crush an entire velo in my maw of power

[sonic flame]

and headshots vs Ceratopsians deal less damage, not more

[slim dragon]

NDA broken
I'm reporting you to hypno

[dusky surge]

the concept of a proto outbiting an omni is genuinely hysterical and i so want it

[sonic flame]

same deal as Pachy except actually useful lmfao, otherwise during the sparring show on the stream Dondi would've outright murdered that other Diablo in like 3 hits

[sonic flame]

Real, my life is in shambles

[sonic flame]

It'd be really funny, but in practice Proto would still just die lmao

[slim dragon]

I'm glad I could destroy someone's life today

[sonic flame]

Like to cycle this back around since we're a bit off topic

[dusky surge]

oh yea but like, i just wanna see omni mains cope, seethe and mald about being outbitten by a smaller herbi

[slim dragon]

Honestly
Omni mains malding is a sign the animal is balanced and not OP for once

[sonic flame]

Weight = HP made smalls frailer and big guys tankier, which isn't a problem for the small guys imo since almost all of them have very explicit ways to avoid combat entirely

[slim dragon]

The problem is really when different size classes are trying to interact

[sonic flame]

Omni and Troodon stand out as 'problem' animals due to their punch up, but Troodon can only really perform as well due to careful venom management, Omni is just busted

Generally most of those interactions are intended as "Small guy gets the hell out of the way"

[slim dragon]

Also omni needs to be toned down in weight

[sonic flame]

it's really only punch ups where combat becomes a problem since the small might be expected to tank a few blows

like even balanced, Omni vs Rex is just a question of how long Omni can avoid getting hit because it should just outright die if it gets nicked

[dusky surge]

i love watching people complain still about stego being OP when omni can now

• entirely disable its attack by pouncing it, allowing basically the entire pack to attack unhindered
• make it waste 5% of its very slow regaining stamina by simply baiting an attack
• make it waste stam fruitlessly trying to buck the damn things on, not knowing that it will hurt its own stam more than the omnis
• spend so much time on the stego the thing is just going to bleed to death
• with coming changes to omni, just... pin the stegos in very large groups

[sonic flame]

but then you have things like Kentro/Diablo having to deal with Allo/Alberto. Or Allo/Alberto having to deal with Sucho/Acro

tho honestly for most animals it's very easy to just say "walk away" since that works in most cases

big animals are generally slower than smaller ones, until you get to the super small ones that have things like burrows or water or climbing to end the chase instantly

[dusky surge]

sucho and acro aren't as big a deal, because we have "slow on land wader brawler bastard" that is sucho

for acro, i genuinely despise its concept art niche so i tend not to think about how it interacts with anything

[slim dragon]

Can't wait for Acro to oneshot cama with a choke bite

[dusky surge]

so epic and cool

its like deino, but on land

[slim dragon]

the predator

[dusky surge]

and can punch up

[sonic flame]

At least the Cama can see it coming

[dusky surge]

if a single bush obscures its sight it will die

[sonic flame]

part of what makes Deino so unfuriating is total blindness --> instant death

[dusky surge]

like, all acro needs is one good neck grab and bye-bye 8 hours

[sonic flame]

the high vantage point of a Cama will make it far easier to spot another giant dinosaur coming

[dusky surge]

hell, even FIGHTING an acro is pretty much horrible, because if at any point it grabs the neck, you're screwed

[slim dragon]

Imagine if the cama player tries to fight back against the predator a fraction of its size
Preposterous

[dusky surge]

unless the cama can instantly cause the acro to be forced to bugger off via either death, fracture or something else, it'll just sprint for the neck

[sonic flame]

I mean if it really is just "I pressed RMB and you instantly die with no counterplay" then it's probably the same for the Acro

cause like, run in, get stomped, die instantly does not sound like a fun game play for Acro

likewise if it gets staggered by a tail whip cama can just keep its tail towards the Acro and smack it when it tries anything and force a stalemate

[dusky surge]

it has the choice to run in and run out, which immediately seperates it

[slim dragon]

The ONE PART I like about the current health/damage system is that fights between smalls are very fast-paced and dynamic, while fights between large animals last longer and more strategic
A "choke bite" move absolutely destroys that entire dynamic

[sonic flame]

given that animals can't backpedal, it has the option of stop holding shift and skid forward if it was running in

or worse, deceleration

[dusky surge]

i stand by the rule of, if something is faster than you, either

you should be stronger than it
you should have some special ability or trait that allows you to escape safely

[slim dragon]

You sound like an omni main complaining that stego oneshots it right now
Acro is, as mentioned, a fraction of the size of a cama
It has no right to have the upper hand in a fight
Allowing it to even do as much as attempt to fight one is already a lot

[sonic flame]

I'm saying that the Cama does have tools lmfao

like the Acro who decides to go right for the neck instantly isn't gonna have a good time since the Cama can pancake it

it's not gonna just be "Die lmao"

[slim dragon]

Cama oneshotting acro (although probably a bit extreme) is okay because it's so much bigger
The other way around isn't, even if acro has to dodge a stomp first

Of course it's just concept art
But it does look very bad

[sonic flame]

stomp really just needs to threaten a frontal attack, most of Cama's defense will come from tail attacks I'd imagine

force the acro to take large circles to get in front of you without eating tail whips, if it ever gets cocky and runs right for the neck just crush it under foot

you can also keep turning to thwart any flanking attempts, tho this strat falls apart once the Acro brings buddies, but that's the nature of the game

[slim dragon]

I'd say scrap the "lunge but I can target things 3x my size" and find a better idea
Or just make acro a smaller giga
It wouldn't be that bad since we already got giga and giga but with a different name

[sonic flame]

I'd just make the Acro work for it personally

[dusky surge]

we have carchar for that

[sonic flame]

I'm fine with the choke bite being a finishing move, but if it's like the Grapple state discussed in the devblog, you'll need to injure the target first

[dusky surge]

because what this game needs is three nearly identical animals of the exact same family in the exact same size tier

[slim dragon]

But still only 2 fliers and like... 5 semiaquatics

[dusky surge]

those ones aren't as cool as another giga

[slim dragon]

And 3 nocturnal animals

[dusky surge]

remember when tarbosaurus was shut down for being a rex clone, hence why we have the giga clone

(to be clear i do not want tarbosaurus)

just making sure i am not on team tarbo

[slim dragon]

I asked Dondi about tarbo in his last stream
He's still adamant against it I don't know why

[sonic flame]

I'm pretty sure the only reason we have Carch is because it got grandfathered in from the legacy roster

[slim dragon]

bruh

[sonic flame]

which is, to be fair, the case for most of our roster

[slim dragon]

Grandfather titanoboa then

[dusky surge]

genuinely more interesting

[sonic flame]

Carch is a giga clone, Titanoboa is a coding nightmare

[dusky surge]

arboreal + semi-aquatic + sick-ass snake

[slim dragon]

Oh yeah I also forgot
We also have only 2 arboreal animals

[dusky surge]

yea

actually gen 1

[sonic flame]

Like the concept of giant snake is more interesting but I can totally understand why it was cut

[dusky surge]

gen 1 is arboreal technically

which tbf is sick as hell

[slim dragon]

Yeah as much as I hate to admit it, them not feeling capable of making titanoboa is understandable
I still hope one day they'll find a genius idea or a tech cornerstone which will allow them to do it

[dusky surge]

i just want them to rip the idea from snake pass and make the control system exceptionally difficult to use

[slim dragon]

I'd love it

[dusky surge]

i do not care if titanoboa is the worst animal in the game

[slim dragon]

They should redo The Isle on Unity

[dusky surge]

the idea of my entire movement being physics-based snake movement is funny as hell

i want to wrap myself around a large branch

[slim dragon]

1 titanoboa, fun !
2 titanoboas, even more fun !
3 titanoboas is a party !
4 titanoboas crash the server !

[dusky surge]

you could make titanoboa constrict, or you can make it venomous because this is the isle and your ideals of realism die here

i stand for venom boa because it makes more people upset and frankly constriction sounds way less interesting to deal with

[slim dragon]

Acro's choke bite mixed with omni's pounce
Sounds great

[dusky surge]

"but boas don't do venom"

and troodon doesnt exist do not speak to me in your wretched hater tongue

realism is a myth

[slim dragon]

It's true tho
Boas don't have venom

[dusky surge]

i want my stupid-ass snake-pass venom-blast boa

[latent bay]

Why not like

Not give it venom or constriction

[slim dragon]

But I honestly don't think titanoboa would need it
Just... somewhat high bite damage, have it target small prey and you're good

[dusky surge]

the hell else is it gonna do. Its a SNAKE. They do two things max

[dusky surge]

yea fair

[sonic flame]

I think it's more like, they could do it, but none of the devs would be happy with the final product

like they could make the slithering just a walk animation vs having the snake deform over terrain, or they could make constriction like the Isle-Gmod thing where it's just Pounce with a wacky animation

[slim dragon]

Well tell them I would be happy with it

[sonic flame]

Titanoboa moving over a small rock and having 3/4ths of its body suspended in the air:

[dusky surge]

epic

it can be the jankiest snake in the universe the simple vibe of being a snake is compelling to me

[sonic flame]

but yeah as I recall it was issues with snake-like movements and constriction looking good and being replicated to multiple clients

[dusky surge]

yea but like, just scrap constriction tbh

[sonic flame]

theoretically doable, but they'd have to cut dozens of corners to make it work

[sonic flame]

Kinda defeats the purpose of giant boa lol

[dusky surge]

not only does it sound really annoying to fight against, it sounds technically challengiing

[slim dragon]

Reminds me of somethng
I was wondering why people complained so much about fall damage, then I proceeded to fall off a few cliffs and I realized
Why do people fall so slowly like they're ballons filled with air ?

[latent bay]

...irl titano didnt have either

It just bit and did piscivore life

[sonic flame]

in terms of the damage dealing and stuff it'd probably just be like pin or grapple

[dusky surge]

yea but who likes those

[slim dragon]

The perfect animal
No legs, no arms, no venom, no thoughts. Just him, and the fishes.

[sonic flame]

I'm just saying the target stuff wouldn't be super hard, the difficulty would be making a constriction "pin" that doesn't look like hot garbage

[slim dragon]

Gravity needs to be increased so dinos don't fly like paper planes

[sonic flame]

It just be like that sometimes

[slim dragon]

I mean the in-engine gravity

[sonic flame]

I think it was set like that for a sepcific reason

[dusky surge]

all you need to do to make the snake cool is

let it swim good
let it dive good
let it eat fish
let it climb tree
give it snake physics

thats it

[sonic flame]

but I don't recall why exactly

[dusky surge]

3 of those things are basically the same thing

[latent bay]

Titano should have zero fall damage then also have the gliding snake extendable ribs

No reason other than fun

[dusky surge]

nah, give hypsi zero fall damage

[latent bay]

Both

[dusky surge]

because i want it to be a sick squirrel

[slim dragon]

Everything has a reason
But so far no good one

[slim dragon]

Give hypsi negative fall damage
Falling from great heights heals it

[latent bay]

Quick question

How can carno charge? It has zero physical adaptation to do so

[slim dragon]

Considering how harmless hypsi is, it wouldn't even affect balance in the slightest

[dusky surge]

isle

[slim dragon]

The same way stego can gallop

[dusky surge]

it would simply aide hypsi playesr

[latent bay]

Oh yeah fair enough

[dusky surge]

"gateway has too many cliffs"

the hypsilophidon in question

i want to sprint in a straight line, plummet down 10 storeys and continue forward

[slim dragon]

I can imagine the sweatiest hypsi player in the world taking on hundreds of enemies and tanking them through healing himself with falls

[dusky surge]

i think the idea of hypsi living near cliffs or large trees and then leaping off when it spots predation is a unique specialised style of survival that harms no balance and instead just helps hypsi do what it do

[slim dragon]

Spit in their eyes then jump off the building
Truly a chad survival strategy

[latent bay]

Let hypsi use its antennae to grapple on branches

[dusky surge]

let hypsi's spit make it that herrera no longer automatically moves across branches

if it spits, it'll fall

[dusky surge]

@stark fern a half-grown deino is over 3x larger than an adult cerato. Half of deino's weight is 4 tons, cerato is 1.3 tons. That's why it can grab you

[solemn sequoia]

wait deino has linear growth now?

[dusky surge]

it has weird growth

it explodes in weight very fast

[solemn sequoia]

I'll have to check deino out again because last I remember it was a curve like everything else where your useless until adult

[dusky surge]

nah deino certainly isn't useless lol

[solemn sequoia]

not calling deino bad, calling every dinos bad until they reach adult

I like the idea of the struggle mechanic

but just enough for if a deinosuchus isn't managing his stam well his prey has a chance of escape

[dusky surge]

that's already how it works tho

or at least, it would be, if deino couldn't just spam-bite after you break free

essentially meaning that even if it messes up its stam, it still wins

[solemn sequoia]

eh, unless the deino is somewhere unexpected though chances are a deino will be obvious with corpses in the water

[dusky surge]

a struggle mechanic simply seems unfair for the deino, and while i understand why you'd want to nerf deino, i disagree with the idea of just making it feel bull

there's a difference between balancing an animal and just making it feel bad

[stark fern]

I didn't know the exact stats of it, but I knew it did get heavy quick. My Deino I am growing, isnt even 50% and weighs a good amount, I was surprised how much weight it had when I checked, being not even half grown yet.

It just doesn't feel right or fair, I've been able to seize adults on land, waddle into the water while being bit by said players packmates and still get my kill.

My main issue stems from it seizing players on land, away from deep water/waters in general. They can't do anything. Deino should get a guarantee kill from lunging from the water. But while he drags someone on land/in shallow waters, there should be some struggle mechanic. Especially against a smaller Deinosuchus.

[dusky surge]

the struggle mechanic is automatic, anything more would just be weird

[stark fern]

it's poorly implemented, imo

[dusky surge]

lunge unfortunatley only works as a one-sided interaction

there's no real better way to implement it that doesn't make deino feel bad

[solemn sequoia]

I mean dissabling it on land wouldn't impact people who are ambushing from water

[dusky surge]

i'd rather it be replaced on land

having RMB be entirely useless on land is lame

[stark fern]

Deino has a great bite force, and a hefty alt bite while on land. It's fine and doesn't need ambush on land

[dusky surge]

yea but removing an entire button is just lame to me. I do think it doesn't need lunge, but it should have something

[stark fern]

Agreed, i'd be fine with it having something else

[dusky surge]

i want a charge bite like cerato, personally. Loud, obvious as hell, but does insane damage and maybe fractures. Disables sprinting while being charged. The antithesis of an ambush move, better used for defending your territory or getting things to leave you alone

Anyone should be able to dodge it

It is entirely to punish aggression

[distant prairie]

Why does it need anything? What deino needs is to be part of a food chain other than cannibalism. It needs to be vulnerable. Deinos should fear getting caught on land.... we have deinos walking out of lakes taking on 8 raptors for their dinner right now.

[dusky surge]

fair, but that's never happening until spino drops

[solemn sequoia]

eh think rex might be able to punish land deinos

issue is rex might just punish everything else

[dusky surge]

stego already does that. We don't need rex for that purpose when we already have a solution

deino needs an actual predator that threatens it in its safe space

it spends 90% of its time in the water, and nothing threatens it there but it

[solemn sequoia]

time to add river mosa XD

[dusky surge]

i dont think adding an even more aquatic creature would help lol

[solemn sequoia]

I mean aren,t fully aquatics planned?

[knotty harbor]

Only possibly as a dlc after the game is done. So in otherwords in 30 years

[sullen valley]

Fix the bucking system! I fought 4 adult Omnis as a fully grown Cera and I almost lost because they pounced me multiple times and my Cera just stood there while I was holding E. I tried everything, tapping E, holding E, holding E while biting but he just stood there while being pounced so I had no choice but to run against a tree to shake them off. Is there anyone who can give me any tips on how to buck properly? Or is it just broken

[distant torrent]

bucking is terribly useless right now just use trees, cliffs, and rocks for the time being

[spring willow]

Is carno stronger now? I die the moment i see a carno now lmfao -patchy

Could normally shake them a bit or lose them entirely but not now it seems

[ripe spruce]

@spring willow I hate the stam but u just gotta manage it now. Don't go running around everywhere and try not let it go below half stam as regens slower if goes below this. Also regens hideously slow if u bleeding or healing bleed

[dusky surge]

they're much stronger now. Essentially double the stam, INSANELY high accel (essentially instant accel), longer hunger, so on

[compact coral]

U probably had never a full grown carno lol longer Hunger he says.

U need to hunt or find food 24/7 or u die.

[spring willow]

I usually play tenno and the stam hasnt been an issue for me on tenno. Just slows the gameplay down a bit and seems fair that a big dino needs to rest more. However when playing smaller dinos such as raptor or especially beipi, you just shouldnt be resting that much, it doesnt feel right compared to how fast it drains. Even on hypsi I had to rest for a few minutes.

[dusky surge]

i have. it was extremely simple to sustain

pretty sure i threw it off a cliff at some point. it's so easy

[hidden kettle]

well carnos still instant bs 😄
why did i come back XD

[hidden kettle]

nah aint that big of a problem actually a mate and me mixpacked as raptor/carno and as raptor/cera and food drain was nearly always the same 😛
sure as carno/cera you need more meat to fill up but aint that big of a dead imo 😄

[compact coral]

As carno u can’t fill up, unless you find a ai teno or ceras/tenos.
Within 1 hour your dead.
In that 1 hour you will also have to fight + load your stam up.

Boars, deers etc don’t even give you 10% of bar

[hidden kettle]

well ai tenos arent that hard to find 🙂
there are plenty of spawn locations you can check and if you check out other locations you will find players as well.
In my opinion its not that hard to get food/water after all. I had issues on stresstest as everybody else due to a new map noone was familiar with but now im good with it tbh

[compact coral]

I played 6 hours yesterday as full grown carno, and just found 1 ai teno. And 3 player pachys, that’s all besides deers and boars, not even in the migration zones.

In the end I ended up starving to death.

[frozen ferry]

I would be fine with starving as an adult carno if I could actually sprint towards the sounds I hear in the last gamble for my life, as opposed to make it a quarter of the way, then have to lie down and just die of starvation lmfao

[hidden kettle]

thats really unlucky and i feel sorry for your experience ._.
my longest living carno was on a 13.5Hrs play with a friend and we done well died to a pack of ceras at the end 😄

[ripe spruce]

The stam drain is fine, it's the regen that takes an age

[hidden kettle]

still dont get it since i got along with the changes never had real stam issues <.<

[compact coral]

How do you even die to ceras ? I wish I could die in pvp lol but no, it’s starving as always on this map as carno

[hidden kettle]

ye could be more on the tiny dinos imo.

[hidden kettle]

eeehhm by fighting like 1v3 ? 😄
and you cant use broken ram attack to get 3 down then 😄

[frozen ferry]

Then you must be the most patient person known to god's earth lmfao

[compact coral]

Didnt u said with a friend ? Lol

[hidden kettle]

ye but still died in a 1v3 😄
#Dontrushforward 😄

[hidden kettle]

nah just trott a lot and have an eye on my stam to keep that up its a vauluble resource after all

[frozen ferry]

Trotting is great and all, but not when its the slowest means of movement since walking up an escalator going in the other direction

[halcyon elk]

Well for now it is

[frozen ferry]

True true true.

[halcyon elk]

I respect the criticism that people give. But I do try to remind that they have plans to fix things, and it is basically the 2nd iteration of the system. So it should be taken with a cup of salt.

[compact coral]

Where do most ppl gather on this map v

[frozen ferry]

I suppose the issue is that the Isle has been in development hell for ages (though not taking away from its charm imo). But still, you never know which system is gonna be the final version, at least subconsciously, so you sorta gotta take each one as is

Ya never know how long a system from the Isle will stick around given the roadmap can get a bit skewiff at times lol

[halcyon elk]

True. Then again I think of it as this way. Legacy was a failed project which meant post leaving of the dev that could go through the alphabetti spaghetti that was legacy's code, it essentially died. Meaning they had to start from scratch.

[frozen ferry]

I do think that Legacy isn't looked back on enough, at least in my opinion. To its credit, Legacy did some things really well, and of course, some things not. I do think trying to import Legacy mechanics as opposed to outright change them (in some cases, not all cases don't get me wrong) would be good

At least, that's the vibe I'm approaching this stamina change with

Like, when playing Legacy, there was never even a concievable issue about stamina and such, at least to me. I don't see why trying to replicate it in that regard is all that bad

[halcyon elk]

Mostly due to its flaws in terms of other mechanics. Notably how turning worked.

[frozen ferry]

Yeah no, I get cutting those parts of legacy. But I suppose I'm of the mind of "if it ain't broke, why fix it?". At least, in regards to stamina lol. I've been away from the Isle for a while, the last time I played it regularly being the day they shifted to EVRIMA. So, it's just a bit jarring to have this new stamina system, etc

I guess I was just really put off by my recent playthrough. I was getting really frustrated with myself and the game in regards to stamina when I was about to starve, as I suppose it felt like I was being punished for something outside my control. Of course, now I know its a deliberate game mechanic, but I suppose my negative experience is still clinging to me

[halcyon elk]

True, makes sense. Though I'm kinda seeing it as the devs setting up a stepping stone for slower gameplay, taking in the atmosphere and in some cases, paranoia of the isle.

Iirc they're planning on decreasing food and water drain. And adjusting trot speeds

[frozen ferry]

The paranoia I 100% agree with. I do think there are ways to achieve it without ticking down the stamina, I guess? To me, more players would increase the paranoia more than stamina ever could

On the basis that players are unpredictable, and running into one immediately activates a sense of fight or flight (if you're keen to actually grow your dino)

Which is why I also am a big supporter of the PvP aspect. Chaos monkeys who attack people just increase the thrill of the game for me, I guess

[halcyon elk]

I more mean its a means to an end. Fighting becomes more scarce and much more consequential. For instance, even on spiro solo galli at night gave me the heebies.

[frozen ferry]

I do agree with fighting becoming more scarce, as long as the chances of running into a player per minute increases

[halcyon elk]

Likely so considering gateway having migration. Though also I like the paranoia that nighttime ambience and being alone does

[frozen ferry]

no I completely agree

A distant Utah call is probably the most effective thing in regards to paranoia lol

chaos merchants they are

[halcyon elk]

What's even more is dilo

[frozen ferry]

TRUE actually

Dilo 1 call was the bane of my nighttime existence

[halcyon elk]

Oh wait I just remembered. They said at some point dilo will be able to EAT DINOSAURS ALIVE.

[frozen ferry]

:horror:

[halcyon elk]

The player will be on the dinosaur select screen but the animal will be screaming in agony.

Imagine you're in a forest canopy as a Herrera and you hear a bunch of dilos and a teno. It becomes silent for a bit only for you to hear BLOOD CURDLING SCREAMS

[frozen ferry]

I'll tell you what, I would one day like to see Thenyaw or V3 revamped, just for old times sake. Like, a brief event for a week or two where they remaster the map and release it

Would be kewl

[frozen ferry]

Yeah I saw a post about unique dino death noises and how loud they should be. Would mega increase paranoia lmfao

[halcyon elk]

I'd be crapping myself hearing that

[frozen ferry]

chilling in a bush and you just hear a death call next to you

Would have me questioning my life choices lol

[halcyon elk]

Idc what's going on but I'd be SPRINTING

I play gallimimus a lot so the fear factor is 10 fold.

[frozen ferry]

Idc what's going on but I'd be SPRINTING for 1 minute before having to lie down for 3
FTFY 😛

[halcyon elk]

I would be sprinting until I couldn't anymore. Rest to full stamina. Then RUN AGAIN

[frozen ferry]

Me every time I play a juvi

"when I get to adult I'll show them" type mentality. The Isle creates its own villains XD

[halcyon elk]

Anyway I gotta go

[frozen ferry]

ciao!

[halcyon elk]

I'll ping ya back

[halcyon elk]

@frozen ferry I have returned

[frozen ferry]

👏

So yeah, I do think the idea that a stamina reduction is needed to enhance the survival elements/ambience. Like, I think the viewpoint is extremely reductive. But I ain't a game developer either

Feel like Dondi/the devs could have pushed for this kind of change without slowing the game pace down outside the environment (i.e. I feel like irl is moving slow, as opposed to just the game but I'm still super invested)

[distant prairie]

The stamina is NOT going to be reversed. I'm really not sure why anyone thinks for 1 second Dondi would reverse on this one. It's not a knee-jerk change for him. He has been wanting and planning this for a LONG time. We are going to get some slight tuning for the creatures struggling to survive like Pteranadon but that's it. The stamina is here to stay.

Now is that a good thing? Eh... I'm on the fence really. I honestly think the games biggest issue is the fact servers are 100 players. I don't think it matters how much or little you can run when the whole place is empty anyway.

[dusky surge]

devblog outright states stamina is here to stay too

[distant prairie]

But everyone needs to settle in or move on when it comes to the Stamina. Dondi does not care at all what the players want

He's building the game as he wants it and you can watch a livestream for 10min and he'll say something to the effect of I know better than everyone else and I'm going to do it the right way.

If you play the Isle you just kind of play and hope what he wants and what is fun are the same thing.

[dusky surge]

i mean, that's kind of how it works

you play a game hoping that you and the dev have the same kind of fun

thats not a new nor offensive concept

[halcyon elk]

That's how video games work usually

[fleet orbit]

if the game wasn't in early access you wouldn't even have an opinion about the development, you would buy it and see if you like it or not. Here at least they are taking sometimes the opinion of the people, but they can't satisfy everyone and keep the vision of the game from them.

[dusky surge]

Pretty much said it better than anyone else could've

[hollow canyon]

well then the devs would better give us the trots that they promised instead of... whatever those things in the game are supposed to be

[lilac cave]

I hope they balance or smooth out the water sound effects the rain at certain times when going threw jungle or by waterfalls or the river really starts to just sound like static in your ears.

I've even tried playing with the audio settings on my computer and game with no luck.

[distant torrent]

@odd pebble I agree with a lot of that but I don’t really agree with a few of those.

the 1% more cost to teno’s slam and kick seem pretty needless, and slam should honestly do more damage than kick imo since it still costs more stam than a kick and requires timing and accuracy (not to mention the stun and knockdown nerfs)

deino’s water shouldn’t be affected by the rain because that’d just mostly nullify gateway’s intended difficulty increase for deino (ALTHOUGH I will support it if deino gets some changes, such as a lunge charge and inability to bite for x amount of time after a dropped lunge. that’s because repeatedly biting and lunging to keep prey from escaping is far more better than drowning atm, and these changes would give people a better chance and punish deinos that don’t conserve their stam well). it honestly sounds good for all other current playables though.

cera is fine as it is. it no longer has godly stam, so I really don’t think charge bite needs to cost stam. at most I think 1-2% per charge would be borderline okay. its bite damage also doesn’t need a 50 damage buff to make it 200

everything else? I think it’s all great

[odd pebble]

I think the 1% increase to teno's main attacks is kinda needed (coming from someone who has mained teno since update 4.5). The stam cost increase being unnecessary for tailslam, maybe i can agree. But with 2% cost for an attack that does stuns, heavy bleed and heavy damage it turns into a spam fest. I have, in a few encounters just thrown out sooo many kicks and tailslams that in previous updates would have gotten me killed.

I gave tailslam less damage than kick because of its range potential. An experienced teno will be able snipe targets that does not respect its space in a way that inexperienced ones cannot. It also opens up for combos with kicks (especially against ceras).

I agree with the part about deino. Maybe it could be a mutation for other species other than semiaquatics?

Cera i think kinda struggles without a body buff. Considering their appetite, keeping a decent sized body around you at all times is simply not practical. Charge bite having that much damage and inflicting status effects and having no stam cost is simply not balanced imo. Thats why i said 1.5% stam cost for each stage of charge bite

Thanks for the feedback tho. Maybe you could react with numbers on the things you like, instead downvoting it altogether? 😄

[distant torrent]

I sometimes forget balance feedback isn’t general so that emoji plus sign is there lmao

a mutation for that water drain would be interesting though

[odd pebble]

Yeah, its a constant travel for safe drinking spots for teno

[distant torrent]

I’ve been wanting a genuine water buff to teno. either that or literally just delete highlands from its migration and replace it with swamp

[odd pebble]

Agreed

Highlands just feels so out of place for teno

[distant torrent]

definitely

the highlands j sector migration feels alright-ish because you can just deny deinos altogether by going inside of the dome, but the lake migration at highlands feels very off. J sector migration still feels off but it’s not as bad (it’s still bad though)

I’d much rather have a swamp migration instead

[odd pebble]

What do you think of the stam change suggestions?

[distant torrent]

I think they’re good. though I don’t really vote on stam changes because I’m just neutral to most of them as long as they don’t just destroy a playable or if they buff smaller, less dangerous playables

like for the case of beipi, it absolutely needs some stam love lol playing it is genuinely so painful once you’re adult. hypsi needs some stam love too

dryo is also in need of love. but apparently it’s going to be getting attacks like a kick so I’m genuinely happy for that

[odd pebble]

Fair enough

[distant torrent]

some people don’t think ptera needs better stam but I personally would love for it to have either more stam or a stam cost reduction for takeoffs and going higher up. at least until thermals or whatever they were called are in

[rigid tulip]

“With 2% cost for an attack that does stuns, heavy bleed and heavy damage it turns into a spam fest” Sure but it should be that way, its base attacks cost stamina unlike carnivores, and tail slam is the hardest attack to hit in the game. If you die to a teno as a carno either you dont know how to charge or you dont know how to run away. Teno is the most engaging and well designed combat we have so far, nerfing it anymore than it has been is ridiculous. If anything it should return to the effectiveness level of its most powerful state, where it usually took 2 carnos to kill it.

There is infinitely more pressure for a teno to play well in any fight when compared to the carnivore. The only exception to this rule is troodon, only because they can get one shot. Teno is the highest risk at its size, and therefore should be highest reward at its size.

@coarse blaze how is any pouncing animal going to kill stego with your proposed changes? A stego could literally just learn the timing and then anything that pounces it is dead, there is 0 counterplay for the pouncer. I agree stego needs moveset diversification but this offers no counterplay, unless im missing something here.

The difference between skillshots like that and teno catching a carno slam is that a carno can also use its skill to avoid it, by juking. How can a raptor avoid this without the grappling system or the stego getting distracted?

[golden coral]

Pouncing animals shouldn't be going for a stego honestly. And if a stego does have that timing down, good, it means it knows how to counter (and it's an engaging counter, unlike hugging a tree). The predator should be the one at risk of failing, so it's no different from a galli running away before you get to it or something. The "counterplay" would be either A, find a less capable target, B, distract or otherwise make the target mistime.

@rigid tulipYou can still catch a carno charge as teno, it just requires very high precision and extremely tight timing

[small herald]

@golden coral how I’ve tried so many times. At most I get stunned with the carno and my stun is longer than it

[golden coral]

I don't know the exact frame that works, but there was never a specific mechanic to let slam catch a charge. So it's doable, but perhaps very difficult. I'd have to test out where during the slam the actual hit is, and then time that to when you have to slam to catch the charge with its speed and all that.

You basically have to, I think, hit just as the carno sticks its snout into your tail tip or so

Which, yeah, is a very specific frame where you will catch it before its charge also catches you

[small herald]

I mean I was able to slam carnos like 9 times out of ten before. Now I get a slam maybe 1 out of 5 if that. A lot of my slams that stun I notice that the carno doesn’t actually charge so I am betting they don’t know about the cooldown

[golden coral]

I haven't done it myself, but I've been told that there's been no change to the interaction per say, so teno hasn't lost the ability, it's just been made way harder due to other changes

[small herald]

I just use avoid charges the. Sprint after them so they lose stamina lol.

I think when they charge the hitbox is messed up and hits your body before your tail hits theirs

[golden coral]

Fair. Just explaining that there wasnt, to my knowledge, anything specific tenos used to be able to do, it's only the active frame that has changed on when you can do it

[small herald]

I mean I was on a no grow server practicing with a buddy and I couldn’t get it idk

[golden coral]

Which does make it very much harder

Could be that carno is just too fast perhaps, but at least in theory the interaction is still there

My comment was mostly to point out that the "ability" to catch a carno was never a specific interaction that teno has lost

[small herald]

In theory doesn’t help that once again the only herbivore able to fight full grown carnos and ceras besides stego was nerfed again.

And yeah I count that as a huge nerf

While carno and Utah get buffed to be monsters again

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, not disputing that it's a nerf or at least detrimental to teno

But some people think it was some kind of "mechanic" that teno lost

[small herald]

I mean I bet if you did a player map everyone is carno cera or Utah. I never see tenos I’ve seen like 3 pachys and stegos idk where they went I’ve seen like one herd of them. I assume that they all died of boredom walking to migration zones

[golden coral]

No surprise there

Troodon and omni are broken due to pounce bugs again, cera is fine, carno is op/up at the same time because it cant be designed properly, and so on

[small herald]

And every deino I’ve seen is in that highland lake killing each other cause everyone just walks to the river to drink lol

[golden coral]

Deino is, well, deino, and stego is still boring (hoping the rekit will make it more fun)

[small herald]

All they have to do to make carno fair is make the charge not stun anything over half its body weight. Then it would be a small game murder and actually have to use skill to kill other mid tiers but devs can’t do that since I assume they all play carno and want a I win button

Carno has only ever been weak for one patch

[golden coral]

Yeah, knockdown at half of carno weight, and lower damage on the charge, maybe up normal bite damage a little, and tune up turn radius a bit again. A carno "brawling" is a lot less scary for a teno or cera than a charging one

[small herald]

Pachy is unplayable unless you stay by the sanctuary and just kill juvies. (Which is what half the pachy player base wants to do anyways)

I mean what animal can run at 50+ km into and object headfirst and not die

[rigid tulip]

I think it might be a case where the frames have been adjusted to the point of where its no longer possible, yet the feature wasn’t explicitly removed. You could probably still stop a charging carno if its running horizontally past you, and you hit it with the tip of your tail. Its just that the only real situation you would want to catch a charge is where its coming into you. I personally actually have tried so many times and what has been happening for me is that I have actually traded. Stunned the carno but i still get knocked down.

[rigid tulip]

This is a weird example, but I used to play a lot of overwatch. In that game positioning, resource conservation and ability usage were the factors that led to won fights. A hero such as widowmaker can ignore this temporarily however and click a head and instantly kill anyone it wants. Granted, its extremely hard, but the moment you go against someone who can do it, you are powerless unless your entire team makes a coordinated effort to counter it. Im in favor of a high skill ceiling playstyle, but not one that can instantly kill players by ignoring the core combat skills that other players have built up. Its similar to a pteranodon against animals that cant jump. Like yeah it is extremely unlikely you will die to a cera as a pteranodon, but your powerless in the case you actually do. Any kind of kill button that is based on reaction time doesnt belong in this game imo.

I definitely agree with you that stego needs moveset diversification but imo this may be the worst way to do it

[golden coral]

Could be. It's just that there was no "feature/mechanic" specifically for teno. So at least in theory you can still do it, slam still does cancel charge, if you somehow land it in the right moment. I always tried to move sideways personally, "juke" the charge but also try and catch the carno as it would be running past me.

[golden coral]

I do get the point, the issue is that you technically have it both on mount and dismount. If you catch the raptor in the air on mount, you can kill it (as stego at least), to which the counterable option is, currently, pounce face, or bait an attack and pounce. And you could apply the "bait attack" on dismount too. Have a packmate bait out a jab, dismount at that time, similar to how you'd mount.

[rigid tulip]

I feel its no longer possible in the situation of a head on charge. It was already hard, and it was very healthy for the game imo idk why it was changed

[golden coral]

Since you can kill things on mount as well as dismount, you have that reaction time "kill button", just like you have in deino lunge and other attacks

[golden coral]

No idea on why it changed, I guess carno new accel is the main issue, unless they changed how teno tailslam works, but I don't think they did?

[rigid tulip]

My issue is that before dismount you stay in one location, and you have a limited time there, you have no choice but to get off. Basically, you have no choice but to peek the sniper.

Mount kills are completely fine because both parties have full control over their characters. Although desync makes half of mount kills undeserved and BS, but you can still adjust for this as an omni, in my experience. Im just having trouble seeing how one would be capable to adjust to reaction dismount kills.

[golden coral]

I'll be honest, the ptera example isn't very good, because the ptera there has the engagement control

In the omni vs slower things, omni can at any point choose to not engage

[rigid tulip]

Good point, i forgot about that

[golden coral]

I'm not neccesarily in favour of a dismount kill, if mount was more likely to kill you. Maybe the new changes with only being able to pounce the sides will help there.

But you can bait on dismount too, that is doable, so there is a reaction to work with there too

[rigid tulip]

I am unsure how a second omni could sufficiently distract a good stego player enough to cause it to look away. If im playing stego, im looking at that guy latched on to me for 30 seconds until he runs out of stamina and then one shotting him. I have enough blood to sacrifice this, if every pounce is a guaranteed kill.

[golden coral]

The issue I have is that if the target is timing it correctly, the raptors should die, that's the risk they take if they do not bait or the target does not fall for the bait and so on

So there has to be a given "we can't take this target" moment for the hunters

Which should be reliant on the target being too good, not on the hunters messing up

[rigid tulip]

This way you could just wittle down the raptor pack one by one by standing still and killing anyone who pounces you while theyre incapable of doing anything but dismounting (which is what gets u the kill)

[golden coral]

Yeah, and honestly, I don't see a problem with it

Since it's one playable, maybe two, that can do it

Stego can because of well, tail reach, and side attacks

[rigid tulip]

In a larger roster maybe

I can see it

[golden coral]

Teno can't really, though it has minimal reach, most others have no reach at all

It's like anky you know

It has full armor, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say "you can't bleed this thing" and call it a day

[rigid tulip]

But if i was the raptor and a stego just watched me on the side of him while my whole pack digged into him and he just one shots me when im forced to dismount im breaking my desk

[golden coral]

I'm mostly in favour of dismount kills for stego and kentro because A, it makes sense due to reach, B, it's more interactive than rubbing them off a tree and killing them while they're down, and C, they can bait and counter, or lose a pack member at the price of getting their own attacks

[rigid tulip]

Which is the most viable option there imo, you could probably do that with like up to 6 and live fine

[golden coral]

I'm not sure it's needed for a full pack to take on a large/apex critter without some losses to account for

Especially not depending on the critter

You could have the comparison between a more dangerous but "quicker" to kill prey (stego, being lower weight/blood, but has the reach) or a "safer" but longer time to kill target, like a trike that has less reach but most likely around 2 or so T of weight/blood than stego

[rigid tulip]

The losses are possible mistakes. These losses would be like unicellular combat where the larger cell just absorbs the smaller cells until it eventually breaks or something once the smaller cells use enough of their numbers

[golden coral]

I mean, if the stego wants to focus the one omni, the entire other side is free to pounce, and the other free slots, so there's potential to really do some damage

And you're safer than if the stego goes to a tree or rock to guarantee to catch you on dismount or just outright rubs you of and then kills you

[rigid tulip]

I agree, but im just saying I doubt the other omnis would be enough to discourage the potential of a free kill

[golden coral]

Maybe not, but one or two raptors dead for killing a large critter

I'd say that's a fine trade, especially for a dangerous and unsuitable target

[rigid tulip]

If a stego puts one side on a rock/cliff face and you can only approach from one side then there is literally 0 counterplay to kill it it all

[rigid tulip]

On average yea, but it should be possible all die or none die

[golden coral]

But I also do think it's fine to account for losses depending on target, as well as minimum required numbers to be able to do much

[golden coral]

It should, and I don't consider dismount to be a guaranteed kill, but maybe I take the rest of the pack more into account than others

[golden coral]

Which is why its so boring for both sides

Hence I'd rather have abilities to kill the pouncers aside from just negating encounter via terrain

But that's not a popular opinion xD

[rigid tulip]

Combat is hard to balance when you essentially make a whole new type of it in a videogame. Something like a MOBA or FPS has like nearly 20 years of gaming history behind it where balance teams can take notes

[golden coral]

Ideally if pouncing is made much harder, requiring aim, maybe a "tell" (like carno charge) and so on, so the target can more efficiently catch them on mounts unless they bait properly or ambush and so on, dismount could be perfectly safe in return

But we lost punishment on missed pounce, and so on, and we've yet to see if the new changes will make a difference, or even if the "small damage" is actually small for that matter

[rigid tulip]

Wait wait wait, can stego no longer swing while an omni is on it?

I havent played stego to know

Did I misinterpret like literally everything?

I was under the impression that you wanted it to be possible to consistently kill an omni by swinging as soon as it dismounts.

[golden coral]

That's a bug. Right now no playable can use alts while being pounced by a troodon or omni (hence mixpack, get a juvie omni or troodon on something, facetank it), stego can't jab since it for some reason counts as "alt". There is also a delay on dismount before you can alt/jab, which is what the feedback post is talking about, and what we're arguing on.

[golden coral]

I do, because so far, pounce has never been risky

If pouncing was more risky, and required some form of aim and skill, I'd be more fine with the dismount being safe. Though I'd just speed it up rather than add a delay on dismount, so you can't abuse it by dismounting and getting a new mount safely instead.

Which you can currently do if you time it with the delay, so you don't "need" to use the bug, that's just added "fun" if you want to mixpack or just want to facetank something that can't bite very well (stego and pachy being very suspectible to this)

[rigid tulip]

Ahh ok I wasnt aware of the delay, I thought you just wanted stego swing speed to be faster or something. Yeah that is unengaging, I agree with you, and it can definitely be exploited which is lame. Simply making dismounts faster is a good alternative to that, I agree. Pounce is imo more risky than for example carno charge is. (Against things that you would actually fight as carno) Pounce requires about equal skill to execute as carno charge (none) however there is always a chance that desync or some slight incline will cause your pounce to either get you stuck standing right next to the prey, or will end up getting you killed when you are already on the side of a dino. But both of those things are quality of life issues, not balance. Imo, some kind of aiming system or required jump/leap of some sort along with reintroduction of the missed pounce animation would help this. I used to main omni and I literally quit after the missed pounce animation got removed. Such a lame change with absolutely no benefit to game health whatsoever

In conclusion, the skill floor of omni has always just been avoiding attacks, since you are so fragile. I would like that avoiding to always be possible for the player, but actually doing damage be made something that is more difficult.

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, pounce has far more bugs, but I don't really count them for "risk", any more than for balance in general to be fair. And current charge is well, more mindless than usual xD

[rigid tulip]

I feel like most games that have poor balance have it because skill expression in interactions is ignored in favor of outcomes/statistics.

[golden coral]

Agreed!

[odd pebble]

I agree that teno should be restored to its former glory where even 2 carnos had to think twice before engaging one but thats less to do with the effectiveness of teno and more to do with how carno is overtuned to deal with teno with its charge.

[thin mantle]

Well tbf

[odd pebble]

When you look at the scenario where all of the changes i mentioned it can do just that

[thin mantle]

Teno has only been nerfed since U3.75

So it is definitely tenos issue as well

Also Omni has consistently power crept itself past any iteration it’s had up to this point

So there’s more than just Carno and teno as well

That contributes to teno underperforming as much as it does

[odd pebble]

Sure, but you could still deal with 2 carnos all the way upto update 6 (atleast i could). It only became a real problem (for me) when parrying charge became unreliable

[thin mantle]

It sorta doesn’t matter since teno lacks the stopping power and damage to contest two carnos if they literally just stand next to it and spam

Like they don’t need charge to do that

And that’s mostly because of slam damage being low, stun timers being massively reduced, and alt attacks being unusable against Carno

Like there’s just been so much clunk added to tenos kit in the last few updates and it can’t keep up

[odd pebble]

I mean, that's always been the case yeah? (havent played updates prior to 4)

[odd pebble]

That i agree

Slam needs a buff

[thin mantle]

No not at all, update 3-5 teno was relatively competent

Like the stun timer change basically eliminated a third or more of the damage you are able to do during a stun combo

Which is major

[odd pebble]

I mean if 2 carnos spam bite at the same time the teno is bound to lose a lot of health

I got a vid hold on

[thin mantle]

Well I agree it’s actually not survivable

You kinda just die

[odd pebble]

https://youtu.be/E2uxR3lQ0SA?si=0ZppRq4473aGXMPn

This was back in update 5

These 2 just decided to spam bite

[coarse blaze]

Just like have previously in the past, omni and troodon both could kill stego before these changes and they did it without needing to cheese them. Previously you could dismount properly without getting kebabbed if you were fairly experienced and it better helped skim the good from the bad players pretty clearly.

The difference between now and then is that it took a lot more skill and patience than it does now to secure a big, risky kill like a stego but now it's genuinely just cheese it because it's easy.

[rigid tulip]

Im against the cheesing, the way interpreted your suggestion is that you wanted stegos to be able to consistently kill dismounters on reaction

In which case any good stego would just look at a omni on the side of it and wait for it to dismount since it has no option but to and get a free kill when the omni is lacking any control over the interaction

[coarse blaze]

I do think it should be how it was previously which was exactly that - you pouncing a stego that you know very well has stamina is a risk you're taking. I've had omnis safely dismount and not be kababbed on their dismount but this again is a skill thing which I think should absolutely be required to kill something of that size and power.

It's not as easy as spamming your swing either, being able to time your swing on their dismount and possibly missing and wasting that stamina is enough of a fair trade in my eyes.

[rigid tulip]

Its similar to how you can just trot down a omni after it pounces you and bite it to death when ur playing teno. Except the omni has even less control in this situation. It feels lame for both the herb and omni. Just add missed pounce stun back

There has to be a significantly better option than allowing the herb to get a guaranteed kill after one pounce due to the omni having no control over itself once it pounces

Make pounce require some more aim and add missed pounce stun back. On top of that remove the delay so stego cant be cheesed but also increase dismount speed so omni cant also be cheesed

All i want is maximum agency over the outcomes of a fight for both parties.

[rigid tulip]

What skill is involved in dismount when stegos can kill you off it? You are stunlocked and required to commit to an action that has a random chance of getting you killed.

[rigid tulip]

I dont really care how high skill this move would be if the opposing party has no skill expression possible to avoid it

Its like running towards a finish line but you can only go in a straight line and theres a sniper that can kill you if he hits his shot

You have a random chance of dying for something that you literally have to do. Yeah it takes skill for the sniper to hit his shot and i commend him for that but there has to be a better way to allow freedom for both.

[coarse blaze]

The thagomizer for stego is more precise in terms of it's hitbox than people like to think, you don't know when that omni is going to decide to dismount or if said dismount will be where you'll think it'll be meaning you have to time it. It's not a random chance if you'll get killed or not, again good omnis were previously able to dismount safely more often than not.

You're never required to try and hunt a stego, it's a creature that can already one-tap you so it's already a risk you're taking. There is no random chance you die, I hate to say it's a skill issue but it kind of is; it can be avoided.

Currently however there is no way for stego to avoid getting stuck with no way to attack while latched onto.

[rigid tulip]

How can it be avoided besides the stego happening to miss?

Personally if it’s possible on reaction time any omni that pounces me I will just walk towards a tree and swing as soon as its forced to get off

[coarse blaze]

You could bait said stego until you know they don't have stamina, that's one.

And there's a way to direct where you dismount in terms of direction and therefore you jump at an angle to avoid getting kebabbed.

There's a kid in here who nearly soloed a FG stego with his omni, it can be done.

This was before Gateway I should clarify.

[rigid tulip]

Was your proposal ever in the game? I mained omni before gateway and i never got hit on dismount

Im confused

Im not whining about stego vs omni, omni has a ridiculous advantage, but i want maximum agency for both parties

[coarse blaze]

I'm not sure I understand your question, yes this was in game on the free admin server.

If you don't get hit yourself on dismount why are you claiming it's a random chance of death?

I don't think there should be equality in the fight for the two, one is a 6 tonned herbivore with spikes the size of an omni. There should be an overwhelming risk of fatality on the omni's part.

[rigid tulip]

Are you proposing that it should be possible for a stego to kill a dismounting omni at slightly above average human reaction time

Consistently

[coarse blaze]

Yes

[rigid tulip]

I dont think that was ever possible, or it may have been but the reaction time must have been ridiculous

I have killed more stegos than almost anything else as omni and that never happened to me

[coarse blaze]

I'd say I hit 8/10 omnis on dismounting as a stego

[rigid tulip]

Rn?

[coarse blaze]

Right now it's not possible

[rigid tulip]

Ok thats what I thought

But interesting, honestly if i played against that i would break my desk

[coarse blaze]

There's a safety blanket for dismounting which is my complaint

[rigid tulip]

I dont think there should be a mechanism that prevents swinging, i agree

But i dont think it should be possible off reaction

Just make dismount faster maybe

[coarse blaze]

I was told it's because you can't alt. while pounced and the swing counts as a alt? I'm not sure about that though.

[rigid tulip]

But make pounce slower and require more aim and also add missed pounce animation back

[coarse blaze]

I do think it should be reaction time, the same goes for say a cera alt. biting as an omni goes to pounce.

[rigid tulip]

As an omni is pouncing, its a different story. The omni has complete control over where it can move. So it should be possible on reaction.

If i died in one shot for something im forced to do while locked in an animation im throwing my keyboard out my window personally

[coarse blaze]

Then just don't pounce and hunt something else

[rigid tulip]

Any smart stego could just put one side of itself on a wall, or walk towards a tree and wait for when an omni is forced to enter an animation

Stego needs help against omni sure but dude thats just 0 agency for the omni player

[coarse blaze]

It's really not, before omnis could hunt stegos just fine

[rigid tulip]

Maybe when we have a bigger roster sure but in a roster as small as this

[dusky surge]

omni should not hunt stego tbh

[rigid tulip]

Wild to say that

It should hunt things as big as shant

I said it

[dusky surge]

it should have an easier time hunting shant than stego

[coarse blaze]

There was no reason for this change, they just made it easier for omni and made it so that the steg can't fight back

Omni genuinely takes no skill right now

there is no ceiling

[rigid tulip]

I agree a mechanism that prevents swinging is universally stupid. But allowing an omni to die from stunlock for something it has to do is not the solution.

[rigid tulip]

More than carno, but yes very low skill

[coarse blaze]

I think just... Make it how it was previously. You're not allowing anything to die, omni could kill steg with the "impale them on dismount" thing

I'm not sure where you're getting that it's a death sentence 10/10 times

It was possible to kill one with that risk previously

[rigid tulip]

Only in the case that the stego didnt have the timing down

[dusky surge]

i think stego should be second to anky in terms of animals omnis doesn't mess with

[coarse blaze]

So the stego has to think? Good.

I still don't see the problem.

I don't think omnis will be pouncing kent

[rigid tulip]

Its not, but in the case its 1/1000 times im still against it because in that situation there is no skill expression or agency for the omni

[rigid tulip]

It shouldnt be possible tbh

[rigid tulip]

Nobody should EVER die for something they are forced to do in a fight, without their control

[dusky surge]

you aren't forced to pounce. Bite is perfectly applicable

[coarse blaze]

I think we just need to agree to disagree, there wasn't an issue before this change it wouldn't suddenly cripple omni. It was perfectly fine before and they did pounce/dismount just fine and sometimes not fine depending on both the omni player and the stego. Both parties had to think and it worked.

[dusky surge]

If you pounce a kentro, you should die. If you pounce an anky, you should get humbled

Although, I think anky should just not take damage from omni at all

[coarse blaze]

I wonder if Dibble is going to get that roll for pouncing

[rigid tulip]

The only reason it wasnt an issue was because stego players didnt know how to do it. If stego players consistently learn timing on this, omni will just get cheesed without its say in the matter

[rigid tulip]

💀

Look yall in a bigger roster maybe

[dusky surge]

You literally are not forced to pounce

[rigid tulip]

I know that but if you want to kill it in under 30 mins you might want to

[dusky surge]

Carnotaurus takes self-damage and gets stunned for charging larger targets. The larger targets don't even get hurt. That immediately goes against what you just said

[coarse blaze]

It's not cheese if you have to learn to time something

And players learning to counter something is..

just how that's supposed to work?

[rigid tulip]

It takes skill expression and i respect that, but omni cant do anything

[coarse blaze]

Okay that's fine

they fought a skilled stego player

[rigid tulip]

No its never fine for any player to die without their control

We want a game of skill expression

[dusky surge]

Which is why it won't happen ever against stego as omni

[coarse blaze]

It is, if you fight someone better than you at a game and die it's a skill issue

[dusky surge]

Because making the decision to engage a stego is entirely on the omni

If you get punished for pouncing, that's on the omni and no one else

[coarse blaze]

10/10 👆

[rigid tulip]

But theres no option a omni can take here. Against someone who can hit skillshots in an FPS for example you can still at least MOVE against them

[coarse blaze]

Just this but again

The option is don't take on the 6 tonned herbi

[dusky surge]

there is. you can leave. omni has the power of speed, which allows it to go "nah" to 90% of the roster and just bugger off

[rigid tulip]

Or maybe the option is make the 6ton herbi have a more diverse moveset to counter omni

[coarse blaze]

You can't compare a dinosaur SIM to an FPS shooter

[dusky surge]

Or even, god forbid, letting it attack when an omni is pouncing it rather than making it helpless and pathetic

[coarse blaze]

The steg should have the upper hand, it's huge and far stronger than the omni

the omni doesn't need a crutch

[rigid tulip]

Look, all im saying is that if your going to allow instakills in any game, you should not also make the target that gets instakilled stunlocked maybe

[rigid tulip]

I agree remove the delay and mechanic where it cant swing, but speed up dismount speed.

[coarse blaze]

It's only an insta kill because omni is small compared to stego

you are putting yourself in that position

[dusky surge]

Last thing omni needs is another goddamn buff lol

[rigid tulip]

And make pounce require more aim and also reintroduce missed pounce animation

[rigid tulip]

I agree its top 3 in the game

[dusky surge]

More importantly than that, it has FLANK DEFENCE, against an animal that's entire battle plan relies primarily on being on the flanks

[coarse blaze]

and let stego swing on dismount

[rigid tulip]

But i want skill expression

[coarse blaze]

Learning to time your swings on a dismounting omni is skill expression

[rigid tulip]

And there is no skill expression for omni in this situation except getting lucky that the stego doesnt hit the shot

[coarse blaze]

It seems like it's only fair if the omni has an out of a fight it starts and already shouldn't be fighting

[dusky surge]

The skill expression should be knowing when not to fight every single herbivore. Stego, for example, should be terrifying for omn is

[coarse blaze]

Then don't engage the stego

[rigid tulip]

I agree, but it gives the other party no basic descision

[coarse blaze]

Their descision was taking on the fight

Nothing forced the two to fight

[rigid tulip]

Stego should have at least one thing to fear beyond a pack of 4/5 good ceras

[coarse blaze]

You jumped in front of the moving car and think there should be a way to not get hit

[rigid tulip]

Nah i just think that i should still be able to move when im on the road

[coarse blaze]

Deinos, other stegos, cera, troodons

[dusky surge]

"Oh no, I, the mighty herrerasaurus, cannot attack the kentro because it is literally a walking spike pit"

To ensure skill expression, do we
A: Remove kentro's spikes
B: Make herrera immune to kentro's spikes to ensure it has a skill-based matchup

[rigid tulip]

Ur right i forgot about troodon

[rigid tulip]

No because herrera is incompatable with fighting kentro, just like carno is with stego

Omni is and has been compatible with it since stegos release

[coarse blaze]

Okay so nothing needed to change

[dusky surge]

Which I feel was a mistake

[coarse blaze]

now it's just cheese the stego

They had a way to kill them without cheesing before there wasn't an issue

You're acting like they couldn't kill stegos then

[dusky surge]

And the only reason omni is compatible with stego was because they had to make it so, otherwise literally nothing could hunt it

[rigid tulip]

I disagree because as soon as one stego player learns perfect timing then the omni player just gets cheesed without any say besides “just dont fight it at all bro.” Im all for stego being able to do more because it is too simple rn leaving it vulnerable to omni. And also the ridiculous mechanic where you cant swing is in the game. But when a skill shot is done against an opponent that has no choice but to roll the dice its very lame imo

[dusky surge]

that's literally not a situation that exists

you can aim your dismounts and choose when you dismount

there's no way a stego can magically and psychically predict both those

[rigid tulip]

But you have to dismount, tho. Corvians was suggesting that stego should be able to on reaction kill any omni dismounting it at above average human reaction time, regardless of direction.

Unless I misinterpreted

[dusky surge]

that's honestly fine

stego's swings are far too slow regardless

its like trying to swing a baseball bat underwater except somehow worse

[rigid tulip]

I would rather stego be buffed 10 times and omni be nerfed 10 times than be forced to roll the dice every dismount

I am not playing dungeons and dragons when i fight

[dusky surge]

you aren't rolling the dice though

where is the dice rolling

also would the most logical conclusion be

see stego
"nah"
leave

[rigid tulip]

The random chance if the stego is good enough to instakill you for every dismount

[dusky surge]

its not a random chance then, is it

[rigid tulip]

The stego player is obv showing great skill but as far as it goes from the omnis perspective he has a random chance of dying from something he cant control and is forced to do

A sniper shot takes skill, but for the guy getting shot its a random chance he will die. Which is fine, since he has control to limit that by taking cover, flanking, shooting back etc. But in this case he is forced to run in a straight line out in the open.

[dusky surge]

you aren't forced at all

[rigid tulip]

Forced in the case that you fight

[dusky surge]

in which case you aren't forced

it's a choice

[rigid tulip]

Stego isnt magically going to become unnaproachable for packs of 8 anytime soon. Omni is its main threat, and its extremely likely to stay that way. In which case we should aim to give both parties in said matchup maximum agency and control in the outcome. The stego should obviously take priority due to its size but still.

[dusky surge]

we've seen how the more agency you give omni, the less agency you give stego

to the point where stegos will just abuse the environment because a fair fight against a competent pack that has more than three members is suicide

[rigid tulip]

Half of the omnis i see get hit by desync everytime they pounce anything. In the case that doesnt happen, and something is caught in the open it gets immediately shredded. I agree omni is too strong rn but its situationally strong, similar to how carno is essentially just a kill button against cera/teno rn

Omni is a kill button against carno/stego rn. And thats obviously not good

But the solution is not allowing stego players to potentially kill omnis when they are stunlocked when they have to be stunlocked to realistically do any damage

Even if it is extremely hard for the stego to do so

Its a completely different story when it comes to swinging at an omni that is pouncing, since it can move wherever it wants and has access to multiple controls besides right click

A stego should obviously be easily capable of reaction killing pouncing omnis

[coarse blaze]

Omni is a kill button for genuinely anything other than deino right now

[dusky surge]

so cooll and fun

[coarse blaze]

It's very cool, I love that there's almost nothing you can do if you stumble into a pack of 9 omniraptors because they just delete anything and everything currently. 👍

[dusky surge]

carno and omni are both very cool/fun

[coarse blaze]

It's okay we have two more carnivores on the way, I'm sure it'll help balance things out

[fallow blaze]

Does anyone know how long Deino and Stego do grow now?
When gateway was released
it said that their grow had changed.
Or did i get it wrong?

[proud thorn]

Very legit points, shame you got hit by the "DoNt HunT It"

[dusky surge]

just played stego for myself against 2 carnos

dear god this animal is hot garbage the moment it's on a low ping environment

[distant torrent]

stego is currently a big fat happy meal if it doesn’t have a mud pit or rocks to stuff its entire front half in to

[rigid tulip]

yall are overreacting bro i played stego for the first time on gateway yesterday and i 1v1d an adult croc when i was 60% like this animal is statistically untouchable

the only way you lose is if you go against a player that is just really good at not getting hit, which i admit is a lil too easy but is extremely rare

I legitamately dont see how anything besides 4 experienced ceras in vc, 6+ raptors or troodons could kill it

and in the case of raptors and troodons just abuse the terrain and its gg

I am a herbivore advocate but all stego needs is moveset diversification, its boring and simple to both play and play against

its just a weight bully that can one shot everything that has capability of actually killing it

[coarse blaze]

I think most people are overreacting that stego is good and or OP at all.

Because it's not and it's not that hard to kill a stego, you don't need VC or any sweaty players to do that.

People are impatient and careless, then they die and whine that the dinosaur is impossible to kill despite running head first into the 6 ton of meat with a spiked club without a second thought.

[coarse blaze]

Someone already stated it but I'll restate it. If you have to use the terrain to counter something then it's not a good playable.

[rigid tulip]

I agree but there is no way to ever make terrain not be a factor, and its a factor that makes any large herbivore invincible against smaller ones

theres really no way to change that imo

[coarse blaze]

Smaller ones shouldn't be fighting something 10x it's size

Not everything is meant to 1v1 everything

[rigid tulip]

there is nothing in the game that can kill stego without a large group

and a coordinated one

only exception is an omni that spends 2 hours

[coarse blaze]

Okay so you can do it without a group

[rigid tulip]

and said stego has to miss every swing for those 2 hours

and also not walk towards any terrain

[coarse blaze]

Yep, so it can be done.

It's not impossible and it never was

[rigid tulip]

walk towards a mudpit or any rock

gg

[coarse blaze]

Yes because mudpits are everywhere all the time, rocks too yeah?

In every open field?

Every little biome?

[slim dragon]

In 6.5 2 troodons could kill a stego
Since troodon wasn't nerfed and stego wasn't buffed since them I assume it's still possible

[coarse blaze]

That can't be right, there's no way, that's never happened ever because they have the chance of insta-death.

[slim dragon]

Ah sorry you're right

[coarse blaze]

My glass cannon should not die to the giant herbivore, it needs more courter-play and by that I mean that the stego shouldn't be able to hit me

[slim dragon]

Stego is OP

[coarse blaze]

It's true #removestegoit'stooOPbuffcarnivores

[slim dragon]

Genuine take from some people

[coarse blaze]

8/10 carnivore mains will say it's false

I was actually genuinely surprised of how fast a FG troodon can kill a 25% steg

People want to buff the thing but I think troodon does pretty well right now, maybe some tweaks to stamina consumption but I think it's good.

[rigid tulip]

never said any of this bs, my only point is that stego doesnt need any buffs whatosever because it is the easiest herbivore to stay alive with once your past 50% growth

better than teno, pachy, dryo, galli at living.

maybe not galli

[coarse blaze]

It can only out-live those playables because of it's health, it has an unfinished kit, it's incredibly slow, the stamina drain on it's single attack is decent, it's crit is very, very exposed and now it can't attack while latched onto. It's a bad playable.

[rigid tulip]

there is no existential threat you have to be watching for, like how tenos have to worry about carnos and ceras, pachys have to worry about carnos and ceras and raptors, yk?

[coarse blaze]

Tenos are fairly weak right now and that's an issue too

but tenos are in the same weight class as carnos and ceras

steg isn't

[rigid tulip]

I agree its kit is unfinished and its mechanic where it cant attack while latched is bs

stego needs that mechanism removed, its kit finished and a medium large predator added

[coarse blaze]

Granted water is far safer now you can get grabbed at 50% via deino

[rigid tulip]

rn it just takes up server slots

[coarse blaze]

I'd be completely happy with that

things like allo would've been it's main counter but I do think deino and steg were released a bit early

[rigid tulip]

agree

[coarse blaze]

rather than buffing smaller/med tiers to try and deal with bigger classed dinosaurs they just... Should've waited til they had more larger dinos to mingle with one another.

I am curious what will tango with theri or deino-duck, hard to say since we don't know how far along that is.

But anyhow people still play stego (aside from living out the tanky-dream) is because currently all the other herbivores are mostly incapable of defending themselves

Pachy gets insta-deleted in a 1v1 to omni and teno will die the moment it stumbles into 2 or possibly one competent carno

Hypsi is missing mechanics, dyro is missing mechanics and galli is just galli.

[distant torrent]

herbivores need to be far better than they currently are w

[coarse blaze]

Hypsi, dryo and galli to some extent I don't think need to fight back, they're smaller herbivores (and omnivore I guess) that should rely on said mechanics to avoid being eaten rather than fighting but teno/pachy should be able to defend themselves

If Dibble can't defend itself I'll actually throw a fit

[distant torrent]

I’m honestly expecting dibble to get mega nerfed like teno if it actually can defend itself competently

[coarse blaze]

That is genuinely what I think will happen, I think it'll be okay and then people are going to get real upset that the boar/bull esc ceratopsian is a little tank.

[distant torrent]

dibble is dealing a bit too much damage to poor, underpowered carno it can’t even outrun? whoops! have to reduce its damage to 150! c:

[coarse blaze]

I sure do love teno 2.0

I do not think dibble should get knockdowned by carno, did we get the weight of dib?

Like I get it's smaller in stature but I expect it to be fairly heavy

[distant torrent]

I think it’s 1500. either 1400 or 1500 but it’s just a little less heavy than teno

[coarse blaze]

So it'll get knocked down

[rigid tulip]

Thats so cringe

[distant torrent]

yep

[coarse blaze]

fingers crossed it can cancel charge with it's head because you know - horns and all.

[rigid tulip]

Dibble should stop carno deaf in its tracks and outdamage it

[coarse blaze]

10/10

[rigid tulip]

Herbivores need to be dangerous again

[coarse blaze]

Some herbivores aren't meant to fight yeah but I totally agree, some herbivores are supposed to be intimidating and should be a challenge to fight

[distant torrent]

I really hope charging a dibble’s head will result in a stun for a carno, bleed, and a lot of hurt from an un-stunned dibble throwing out attacks to punish the not so careful carno

[coarse blaze]

sometimes you don't win and need to run off from the battered herbivore that bested you

[coarse blaze]

People would throw a tantrum but I'd love that

[distant torrent]

god please let the tantrums be thrown. it needs to happen

[coarse blaze]

We need more "punishing for mistakes" like how pounce punishment should be a thing.

[rigid tulip]

Exactly

[coarse blaze]

It's like people have never seen a bull gore something, herbivores can absolutely be scary and dangerous

[distant torrent]

pouncing a dibble head-on should result in death or being very messed up to the point where you have to back off, or else you’ll die from bleed

[coarse blaze]

If you could directionally alt attack at a pouncing omni and impale it that'd be neat

[distant torrent]

I’d be so happy

[rigid tulip]

Large carnivores are not only consistently smaller than large herbivores in the wild but lose to them also

[coarse blaze]

I just think the "herbivores are walking food" trope needs to die

sometimes you get secure the kill and thats just how it is

[rigid tulip]

The largest land carnivores IRL could likely not kill a bull

A tiger and a bear are not walking away from that fight without at least being on the verge of death

Forget any normally sized carnivores

If there are two equally sized animals the herbivore normally is bulkier and more dangerous for the carnivore than its worth. In this game its somehow the opposite

[coarse blaze]

I think it's like - something blunt like a hammer vs something sharp and peircing like a knife

both are dangerous but in different ways

a mountain of muscle over just teeth and claws

Anky isn't spooky but it's a walking rock

[distant torrent]

#balance-feedback message

[shadow vortex]

Tail slam is the hardest attack to hit (also leaving you pretty vulnerable during the animation), especially against agile ceras lol, which even can just bite a tip of the tail and still do ~150 damage with full charged bite… Also puking, which gives cera 4 free bites, kinda exist. So any teno below 40% hunger is a walking bag of meat for a good cera, and I’m not even gonna say that cera is not a hunter, but a scavenger

[foggy elm]

tenonto.

[golden coral]

The fact that troodons can hunt an adult stego doesn't tell you how bad it is? The fact that you only need a few raptors to hunt it if the stego relies on it's own abilities doesn't tell you how bad it is? The fact that a few ceratos can vomit and then kill it via "vomit lock" doesn't tell you how bad it is? Sure, you can fight an adult deino, (if you're also more or less full grown, 60% they can almost grab you, you're not quite 4T then I believe), but that's not because stego is neccesarily good, so much as deino not being designed to "fight" things very well. Meanwhile, deino is immune to troodons even more than stego if it uses terrain (safety biome), same goes for raptors, and can't be vomited at all by ceras, while being able to one shot things up to pachy size and just grab the rest aside from fully grown stegos.

There is little to no reason to think stego is the better playable or choice compared to equivalent playables. Which seems to be a thing that applies no matter the size of the carni/herbi involved. Omni/troodon, better than their counterparts, cera/carno, better than teno, and so on. (Oh and there's no terrain abuse, only use. People love to otherwise go "don't fight raptors in the open", so then stop "complaining" when people don't do that. And stego can only oneshot carno, teno and cera on headshot, and not even cera on headshot if it has a sufficient body. It is a "bully" that can't force a fight, has clunky and mobility limiting attacks (being able to one shot does little if you can't hit things reliably). There is little about stego that makes it a good fighter or safe, especially not at only 50% growth.

[distant torrent]

Even a teno can destroy a stego lol

[dusky surge]

croc is ironically one of its best matchups. Even 2 carnos can genuinely threaten it if it doesn't use the environment to slow them down, despite being a so-called "plains herbivore"

[rigid tulip]

Bro carno has no way to attack stego without running past its head, perfect predictablity. I have never seen carnos try to kill a stego they cant charge, it doesnt happen.

Maybe im missing something but no way a single stego has ever died to 2 carnos

i refuse to believe it honestly

[dusky surge]

i decided to play a "fair fight" against 2 carnos on my server. Low ping, no using trees or water. They absolutely are no joke if the stego isn't immediately sprinting to put itself against walls

[rigid tulip]

how? couldnt you just swing to the top right if its running from the left to hit ur head?

and vise versa

like it cant even bait swings without just running extra far from your head as it passes by

[dusky surge]

tried that, don't work

stego is so pathetically slow

its attacks are utter garbage besides damage

[rigid tulip]

how? its forced to continue its acceleration and it cant turn away after the bite? you could just prefire every strafing run it does

[dusky surge]

they just knew how to get headshots and i was screwed the moment they did

[rigid tulip]

im fine with stego swings being sped up if it is slightly nerfed in damage to not one shot a carno, so that low skill stegos could have something extra to worry about, but at the same time crocs could still hypothetically kill it, since a rate of fire buff = dps buff

[golden coral]

To be fair, with new accel, they can probably do it and bait/run, considering how slow stegos attacks in the front are.

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, they can, stay out of range, slam head. Will kill eventually, or bait a jab and run in and kick, also works.

[rigid tulip]

a low skill stego would be the only ones who would hvae to worry about carnos in the case that stego swing was sped up, allowing stego to hit easier

the average stego player could very likely kill one

I have never heard of a carno ever fighting a (not baby) stego in all the time ive played evrima

[golden coral]

Normally carnos aren't much of a threat, but then they are also designed to use the charge to knock things over, like deino with lunge, so it makes sense since their abilities are "limited", unlike vomit or venom or pounce itself. (aside from pin but that's just a more powerful pounce after all)

[rigid tulip]

im not saying this to argue, but I just genuinely am confused rn that this is even possible?

[golden coral]

Yes, it's possible if you can bait the stego, even more so now with the new accel most likely since you can be just outside of the range, bait and be on the stego very fast.

[rigid tulip]

I agree carno should never be able to kill stegos, and i dont think it reliably can, but i havent tried it recently to be fair

[golden coral]

Also back when thagomizer had a high multiplier for some reason, carnos would just nibble at your tail until you died xD

Though stego back then was in a really bad spot, dying to four omnis in one pounce and all that fun stuff

[rigid tulip]

only reason i say nerf damage is so that extremely low skill stegos could have some kind of extra threat and so that croc could keep up- in the case of the discussed rate of fire buff

[golden coral]

If the stego never falls for a bait, you can't, but if it does, you have better chances now than at some points, since you can get in for the bite and out very quickly with the new accel

Earlier it'd be more dangerous because of needing greater distance and being slower on the move, so you could predict it easier

But with current accel, I could see carnos pull it off vs a stego that doesn't wait for the trade outright

[rigid tulip]

See the thing with stego and carnivores is that it can often ignore baits because it has so much HP and blood that it can wait until mistakes or a full commit

[golden coral]

It can, but only for so long, but yeah, carno and deino are the good matchups (well, vs one deino, two can be quite the danger very quickly)

And they're good only because those two aren't designed to fight very well at all

[golden coral]

One way to bait a stego is to just walk/trot outside tail range, since the stego has no way to pressure you, it's very safe as long as you know your distance. And doing so can work quite well, because it's not always obvious for the stego if you're within range or just outside of it.

Even more so now that you can't attack from a run, no more alt from running and stego jab falls under that I think

[dusky surge]

it absolutely should one shot a carno and obliterate crocs, otherwise it's probably garbage when rex exists

if it were up to me, thagomizer would be a bodyshot death to carno. Perhaps the coming charged version

[rigid tulip]

I agree, if it had any natural predator

rn it has nothing to worry about in the way that teno has to worry about carnos or cera, or how pachy has to worry about carnos, cera, or raptors

it has no matchups that are a nearly guaranteed unexcapable loss like other herbs have

Until acro or at least allo sized animals are in the game it shouldnt be too strong imo, added too early

[rigid tulip]

same, after it has predators

[dusky surge]

its getting rex

[distant torrent]

I’m still hoping rex will be so hard to grow and maintain that just seeing 1 full grown adult will be incredibly rare and an event to be in awe over

(same with the other apexes like giga and spino and charchar)

[regal goblet]

That would really nice, because it'll get annoying to go to a semi populated spot on the map and run into 15 adult rexes, four spinos, and 7 gigas all at once xD the apex's should be a challenge, something that isn't just an easy afk grow or something like that

[distant torrent]

definitely

I’m still holding onto this belief #balance-feedback message

except the only thing I’d add onto it now that AI is apparently here to stay is apexes should NOT gain any diet whatsoever from ai. food? sure. but not diet. not even from the organs

or else you’re going to get apexes afk growing off of the artificial “intelligence” and not bothering to hunt the challenging players

[slim dragon]

When talking about AI, are you talking about modern animal AI or dinosaur Ai ?

[distant torrent]

dinosaur since the animal ai don’t have organs (thankfully)

[slim dragon]

Cuz it'd be weird if a rex can kill a teno and get diets from it for example, but if it's AI it randomly gets screwed (not that dino Ai is that hard to differentiate from players but that would still be weird)

I think the only fix is to make Ai more competent at surviving now that its presence is set in stone

Also no species should be both playable and AI on the same server (for officials at least)
That way when you see another dino you always know if it's Ai or player, just depending on the species available to pick

Ideally the "ai" species wouldn't be playable at all but people would still want to play them because Isle players are Isle players...

[distant torrent]

genuinely just remove the ai playables

delete them

[slim dragon]

best option
But it's been denied for some reason

I still think devs aren't sure what they want to make out of Ai themselves.

[distant torrent]

maybe because of the people wanting easy lives complaining for more ai in #ai-feedback lol…

[slim dragon]

Are they supposed to be food sources ? Ambience ? Substitutes for players ? All of those at once ?

Although these are somewhat incompatible

[distant torrent]

interactions just don’t feel genuine if you’re unsure if it’s ai or if you’re certain it’s ai

[slim dragon]

yeah

[foggy elm]

i found

[viral jungle]

How long does deinos water last out of water again

[ashen frigate]

@balmy briar another thing is a log out button if you wanted to log out

[distant prairie]

The ai only exists at all because they can't figure out how to add more players to the server. Or refuse to do so.

They don't actually add anything to the game. They simply patch an obvious hole.

[stark knoll]

@misty sable Fly at shallower angles, it's waaaaay more efficient on stam. Like, absurdly efficient

I only use spacebar and shift in emergencies

[misty sable]

No I agree, I don't spam spacebar with shift when I wanna go somewhere, but there are two problems: this map has mountains and ptera is built around gliding. If you dont glide you're not going to fly, and how am to glide anywhere if I end up gliding face first into a rock :')

[golden coral]

There'a a few videos out there on how to fly/glide as ptera with the new stam and still do quite fine

[livid crater]

@foggy elm it absolutely makes sense for Deino to be faster than beipi in the water. Crocs IRL can swim faster than Olympic swimmers (up to 20mph) because they have a huge paddle of a tail, beipis have little tiny paddles for feet

They're faster than bottlenose dolphins in the water according to Google lol

[mint star]

ive had to make this point time and time again everytime someone asks for beipi to be faster than deino

[dusky surge]

beipi should still be fast and agile

[slim dragon]

There's a key difference tho
Olympic swimmers aren't adapted for living in the water
Beipi is
Id oubt irl crocs are faster than ducks or penguins

[mental roost]

Supposedly(looking at a few different sources), most penguins are 4-7 mph(1.6 km/h to 11 km/h)

Although the Gentoo(the fastest) is about 22 mph(36 km/h)

Sources: Penguins international, Pinguins info, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, Smithsonian Magazine

Gonna do an average for crocs(Nile, Saltie, and American as they're all very close to eachother)

minimum, about 15mph/24kmh with higher estimates of 22 mph(35kmh), coming from the Nile

So bit of a toss up but Beipi should definitely be quite agile(I haven't played much of any Beipi, so shrug)

Sources for Crocs for those interested: from the Northern Territories, A-Z animals, leo zoo, Animal queries, Fauna facts, cold wire, Safari partner

[slim dragon]

1.6 km/h ? Are you sure you're picking estimates of their swimming speed and not their walking speed ?
Also when talking about penguins I'm talking about the ones that are specifically adapted for living underwater, the flightless ones
They have the same name as the flying birds but they're not even remotely similar

[mental roost]

Emperor penguin was one of the ones that popped up with a 3.6-7 mph range, but when looking for general stats, penguins were very hit or miss, with a blue penguin(the little guy) getting a 6.5 km/h swim speed

Pinguins.info however also has this as a chart(I'm not sure on how reliable they are as a site)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinguins.info%2FEngels%2FVoortsnel_eng.html&psig=AOvVaw2vDOmrZWVcfC0OP5_4zxF6&ust=1701934095502000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CBMQjhxqFwoTCMjftemk-oIDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE

Gentoo is the fastest one I've seen they have to offer so far, and it's not even close either

[slim dragon]

It looks very weird
I know humans aren't fast swimmers, but 0.7 km/h is abysmally low
I'm not a professional swimmer but I can definitely swim about as fast as someone can walk, so around 4-5 km/h

[mental roost]

You might be above average, who knows

[slim dragon]

And emperor penguins are able to dive out of the water
With their size, I don't think that would be possible with a speed of only 11 km/h

[slim dragon]

I'm not
I'm just a regular guy

I'm not even very good at swimming

[mental roost]

I think Gentoo might be the best comparison for Beipi?

Fast is fun

Seaworld

I can't really find anything else that has Emperor Penguins going above 11 mph an hour (doubt they'd be the best comparison though??? Maybe?)

[slim dragon]

french wikipedia tells me their average swim speed is 5 to 10 km/h, with bursts of speed at 30 km/h

[mental roost]

American wikipedia doesn't mention a burst of speed unfortunately, they only mention the averages

[slim dragon]

Oh apparently I'm wrong on human swimming speed
It's closer to 2 km/h on average
World record is 14 km/h

[mental roost]

Well

Not the worst I guess

But ye: I am of the opinion Beipi should be both fast and agile in the water

I don't know how well it is performing this role at the moment but it should definitely be a dastardly little bugger

[slim dragon]

In my experience with beipi, the problem isn't that beipi is slower than deino
It is that deino can turn 90 degrees when lunging (it may also be a hitbox/latency issue but it feels super bad)

[mental roost]

I see
Got to love Deino

[slim dragon]

But I also think deino is way too fast for its size

Or has too much acceleration
Or something
This game really has a problem with simulating the mass of multi-ton animals and having them behave like they're dog-sized

[mental roost]

A small nerf to the adult deino's swim speed wouldn't hurt(I'm pretty sure it's at its fastest in the water as an adult?), increased stamina consumption would definitely hit large deinos hard though I'd imagine

I've played Deino a little bit, back in U6.5

Haven't played Gateway, due to balancing, computer problems and well

Balancing

[slim dragon]

Not sure about it, I don't play deino

Iv'e got better things to waste 5 hours of my life on

[mental roost]

Also fair, Deino is the one playable you can play and watch a video essay simultaneously

[golden coral]

@coarse blaze There's no holding E for deino. Though I do agree, it'd be nice if there were more interactive and engaging counters to things like pounce and lunge than just terrain. Though I wouldn't call it "abusing", it's just using it, which people like to both tell you to do, and then complain when you do, for some reason.

[coarse blaze]

I've heard conflicting things that E does or doesn't do anything in a deino's lunge however my point still stands in the sense that bucking is entirely useless currently, so comparing it to something that is too useless is fine by me.

I don't think the scrapping off omniraptors is at all intentional and is just something that happens which is why I refer to it as "abusing the terrain" but as it stands it's really the only effective way of getting omniraptors off of you. I'm pretty positive the reason why people complain is for the same reason, that it's not seemingly intentional and abusive. People opting for it though because well - it works.

[slim dragon]

Scraping off omniraptors is intended
But imo it should only happen when sprinting

[coarse blaze]

I always just assumed it fumbled the hitboxes and knocked them off since it doesn't look like much. The more you know I suppose.

I will remove the abuse from my post

[dusky surge]

@eternal oak reversion doesn't fix anything, especially considering this is a new carno under a new stamina system

old carno was nowhere near perfect, and still maintains many of the issues modern carno does, such as a nuke-charge/ambush oriented playstyle

[eternal oak]

i dont remember exactly how much damage old charge did. but i do think it was less damage.

[dusky surge]

nope

actually, maybe?

honestly, i think one update was the beginning of the end

[eternal oak]

yeah i think it was noticeably less...

[dusky surge]

where they buffed charge for no good reason

[eternal oak]

update 6?

the one where carno was the most unbelievably op thing on the land

[dusky surge]

nah, not U6

[eternal oak]

you sure?

[dusky surge]

Pretty much certain

[eternal oak]

do you remember what else came with the update they buffed charge in?

[dusky surge]

It just changed agility and speed on charge in U6

[eternal oak]

pretty sure they also buffed the damage but idk

i definately remember carno in u6 being waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too strong

[dusky surge]

It was U4 where charge was buffed

Sprinting Secondary Attack: Charge
Speed modifier increased.
Knockdown damage increased.
Stagger damage increased.
Cooldown removed.
Now factors in Locational damage. (Can strike legs, heads, etc.)

This was when carno got really goddamn annoying

[eternal oak]

i think it was also update 4 where they nerfed the bite damage so i guess it makes sense that its the update they buffed the charge.

[dusky surge]

yea, it was

honestly, probably one of the greatest mistteps in carno's balance history

[eternal oak]

aside from that i do still like how the carno functioned agility wise. but the damage to charge and bite was really off

[dusky surge]

U3 carno was a lot more bite-oriented, which is why I assume they made this choice, to encourage people to use the charge, but it ended up being massively detrimental

[eternal oak]

weird choice wasnt it

but i do really like the charge emphasizing the speed at the cost of agility. essentially noticeably faster at the cost of noticable agility

[dusky surge]

I get the idea, but the issue more derived from the fact charge was extremely difficult to use because it basically turned off any agility

but when they fixed that issue, the new damage numbers became an overbearing problem

[eternal oak]

and when it was buffed in update 6 it became that famous kill switch

i get the point but i reaaally prefer the charge not being a literal guided missile. more like an arrow. if you know how to aim and you time it right you will do good

it just requires decent aim

and timing

[dusky surge]

but that's never been what charge has required

because you can RMB on the ass of the opponent, and are encouraged to do so

it removes any need for aim

[eternal oak]

well yes. but that implies that whatever you are trying to charge is running in a straight line...

[dusky surge]

i mean, the entire gamplan has been always "get close, RMB"

it's how they do it now, it's how it's always been done

if only it had some kind of, i don't know, animation telegraph like every other special attack in the game

[eternal oak]

animation telegraph?

the hell is that?

[dusky surge]

it telegraphs its attacks via an animation to display what it's about to do and give people actual frames where they can react, as well as emphasising timing

[eternal oak]

doesnt it already do that with its head lowering?

[dusky surge]

not really, because it's functionally instant

you can actually hit people before the head has even lowered the whole way

[eternal oak]

well it should only do damage once the head is lowered

[dusky surge]

it should

but it doesn't

carno's charge is honestly so disgustingly designed it's a shocker it's allowed to be as it is

• One of the few attacks capable of massive group/crowd control, since it can bowl through multiple targets and continue going
• Highest damage of any animal (bar the very large creatures like stego and deino) in the game
• Least aim/timing required in the game, because it lasts indefinitely until you either manually stop it or just run out of stam
• Best knockdown range of any attack in the game
• Can be done from a standstill due to acceleration
• No telegraph animation, it just activates. Even the animations/sounds it has are exceptionally difficult to notice
• It is an attack that can do all of this WHILE MOVING at the highest speed of any creature in the game

I literally think deino lunge is a more fair attack than this goddamn thing at this point

[eternal oak]

yeah charge is a bit ridiculous. but it was less ridiculous when it was first added in update 2-3

[dusky surge]

Deino lunge has several limiting factors. Carnotaurus has a cooldown which is hysterical because it functionally does not care on account of the fact that it is the best animal at simply spacing out its opponents

The cooldown on charge is literally the least meaningful nerf that it ever could've gotten

[eternal oak]

yup