balance-feedback-discussion

[thin mantle]

Yup

Like taking action to combat deathmatch mentality needs post gateway assessment

[keen plover]

The best part about The isle is the combat. That's what makes it fun

[thin mantle]

It’s where like…90% if all skill expression is

[keen plover]

Like even if you added all these other things, combat will always be the top thing

[thin mantle]

And it’s had the most work put into it for good reason

Like what really differentiates a teno from a dibble when they aren’t fighting…

It’s literally just how they look or sound

[keen plover]

"Other balance changes were added, such as stamina affecting damage output, and the addition of “Wounds” (not visual), which lower your health as well as certain stats, such as health regen, stamina regen, damage and more"

[thin mantle]

Ugh

[keen plover]

So if you're low stam + wounded

GG

Caught after a fight where you were defending yourself? Well here, have this punishment

[thin mantle]

Wanted to progress elders and mutations? Lol

Gg raptors got you cuz you literally couldn’t heal

[hasty coyote]

That is also true, but if you want to stay solo, you don’t have to go with the migrations. And you can probably find a group at your species’s migration zone.

However I’m just guessing here and trying to see the potential good of changes rather than immediately dislike it without seeing it.

[keen plover]

I feel like these changes came to quickly. Should have seen how the new map + migrations change the gameplay loop

Now we've got like 10 new things stacked on top

[tall bronze]

Just chiming in real quick, but I think it was said somewhere that you can use stamina attacks even without stam now (as long as they don't requiring running), they'll just be worse. Don wanted to get rid of the mindset of "guys!!! He attacked 8 times! He's out of stam! Rush him!!!!"

Lil stuff like that goes a long way for the player feeling in control :3

[keen plover]

I like that change as well. My worry is mainly down to regen. Stamina, health & blood.

I don't like being punished for hunting / defending. If that's a way to stop groups then it also punishes solo players

[tall bronze]

I have some concerns as well. But I'm pretty sure stuff's getting rebalanced both for Gateway and for these changes. But we shall see

I really hope they do something about diet combos AKA triple carb

[keen plover]

Yeah that needs to be removed lol

[mortal tundra]

@solid imp I do agree with this, that would probably help with ceras not chasing everything down. But they're also not faster than troodons, but if you turn too much the cera can catch you.

They would probably get bullied more though, by tenos in particular.

[dusky surge]

good lol

[solid imp]

My bad but ty

[distant torrent]

no, no. you don’t understand. herbivores can’t bully carnivores. carnivores have to dominate the herbivores. even the scavengers have to. clearly

[mortal tundra]

But tell that to the 4 tenos before that chased me down as a sub-adult cera.

[distant torrent]

I really want herbivores to be buffed already and for non-biting attacks to not be cancelled and blocked by vomit

[keen plover]

The 4 adult ceras chasing down the lone teno

[distant torrent]

my dream balance change that will actually let us see a rise in herbivore populations

[distant torrent]

pov: the ceras have a full carb diet

[dawn falcon]

Honestly, trying to buff solo will always end up buffing groups in some ways.

Try to buff solo by making sitting players take 33% more damage, thus giving you a way to ambush resting players? Inherently a buff to groups as well, especially coordinated ones.

Buffing runtime for all creatures, making you less likely to be runned down by groups? Also a buff to the groups.

[thin mantle]

Yup, which is why I advocate for not really buffing either

Not target buffing in either direction

Just giving each creature the tools to deal with as much as it can within reason

[dawn falcon]

That's another tried and true method, but unfortunately its not happening

as we've seen from the recent devblo

Its the same concept with making ambitious creature designs. They may or may not buff mixpacking as well. For example: Pteras scouting, deino bush ambushes, cerato.. probably herrera, 100% dilo.

[thin mantle]

Dilo is going to be mandatory in whatever group you’re running

Even herbis, cuz it’s just an auto success for baiting attacks

[dawn falcon]

So its either you take on the challenge and try to solve the problems that you create by making the game more "complex", or you stay simple. and we obviously know what the devs are going for

[dawn falcon]

100%. Same with Ceratos carrying bodies and going to war

[thin mantle]

Mhm

[dawn falcon]

Ambitious design that makes mixpacks worse

[dusky surge]

the best solution is not to design around them, but to warn players about them so they can react

because you cannot remove them

[dawn falcon]

Thats true as well

[thin mantle]

Could also make the individual animals easier to counter

Or rather the ones with easier access to engagement authority

[dusky surge]

yea but that just nerfs solos lol

[thin mantle]

It doesn’t nerf avoidance

[dawn falcon]

it also nerfs groups

[thin mantle]

It just makes everything more survivable honestly

[dawn falcon]

So you're bringing power down from both to solve a problem pertaining to that playable

[thin mantle]

It’d at least give solo animals more time to figure out solutions, at a bare minimum

I definitely think there needs to be more power ratio tuning relative to mobility

Some abilities that can be used in movement or while chasing are often as powerful or far stronger than attacks performed when stationary or from behind

[dusky surge]

that is a good point

[thin mantle]

Makes defending animals more powerful than aggressors almost universally so even when outnumbered it at least takes a lot of time to take them down

[dawn falcon]

Yep, and with other variables like health, it can get a lot worse.

[dusky surge]

carno charge

essentially

[thin mantle]

I was literally about to follow up on what I said and mention that as an example but my pizza caught fire

So that took priority

[dusky surge]

fair enough

but yea, carno charge is the shining example of mobility, damage and utility rolled into one without any downside besides stamdrain, i guess

but stamdrain being the "balancing factor" i find is really... bad

[thin mantle]

I honestly just find stamina sorta...lame

Like I know it's necessary as a mechanic

[dusky surge]

unless the ability logically makes sense for it to be stam-focused, like omni pounce, deino lunge/carry, stego swing, or teno's attacks i really don't see why most of these cost stam

carno doesn't NEED to be nuked in stam for using this ability because frankly, this ability being tied to carno's stam is detrimental to its identity

[thin mantle]

But fights revolving around stam feels REALLY bad

[dusky surge]

you can see the recent shift to "charges" over stamcost

ever since dryo got their charges

and i can respect that change

[thin mantle]

Wich I prefer...but if it ever applies to defensive abilities I think those animals just drop off the viability cliff into irrelevancy

[dusky surge]

in the case of cerato, it primarily relies on a secondary resource that is exclusive to it and it can replenish

even though cerato's complete ignorance to stam economy has made it stupid, the way it is managed in terms of resourcefulness is arguably better

[thin mantle]

Oh agreed

Ceratos main issues is that other animals aren't on its level

And vomitlocking is still a thing

[dusky surge]

the charge bite has actual downsides in terms of being the loudest goddamn ability on the planet and not actually being instantly effective

which many other attacks do not have

[thin mantle]

Cerato almost seems like it was designed for a way more....idk...mechanically expressive version of this game

[dusky surge]

i do think SOME animals should be necessitated to use stamina for their abilities (omni, for one, should actually need to think more about mobility over combat)

[thin mantle]

The main reason that works is that omni is both small and hard to hit, on top of having VERY few animals that can actually catch it

So it having that much downtime is warranted

Plus it makes those abilties ideally worse against smaller targets

Despite it still hitting like a truck against them

[dusky surge]

but carno literally melting its own stampool in order to nuke something just feels like the antithesis of a plains-predator. You'd like to assume that carno would be somewhat good at marathon running if it's required to live out in the open most of its life

deino ambush costing stam also makes sense because you SHOULD be punished for sprinting at something and then "ambushing" it, instead of patiently waiting and attacking when something comes to you

[thin mantle]

It almost feels like a sniper that will instantly kill you if it hits the shot, but it only has one bullet.
Feels bad for everything

[dusky surge]

still somewhat bizarre that cera's chargebite is free from stam but pachy is not

despite their abilities being VERY similar

(cerato's is actually better in terms of QoL, as you can hold it for longer and activate it while looking backwards, which pachy cannot do for some reason)

[dawn falcon]

I find it bizzare that Omni pounce doesn't have a punishment for missing, but pachy does?

[dusky surge]

im just as baffled as you are

it's like they just forgot pachy existed when making this change

"it's not fun to lose control of your character for missing an attack" while still having that be the case for pachy

[dawn falcon]

It makes me wonder if they might just remove the miss animation if they remember pachy balance lol

[thin mantle]

Or Cerato or teno or stego or deino technically…..
Like no it’s literally just Omni

[dusky surge]

@slim dragon man i just want these herbivores to actually exist in areas where they were literally supposed to ingame

pachy literally dies if it fights on a hill like what

its so goddamn dumb

[slim dragon]

You've fallen right into my trap

Which was to post a weird reaction emote in order to provoke a need to justify yourself

[dusky surge]

how dare you

blows you up with mind

[slim dragon]

I regret please I apologize

[random stump]

the isle try to make creatures good in their intended environments challenge 80% fail

[dawn falcon]

@dusky surge Considering Pachy is modeled after mountain goats/rams, I wouldn’t mind Pachy surviving significantly large falls. Maybe tattered with a leg fracture, but at least survivable

Maybe surviving coastal cliffs

[dusky surge]

wow lots of people want fall damage resist huh

[halcyon elk]

It makes sense. Arboreal creatures are really good at not breaking things.

[wild cove]

I've been banging my pots and pans about Hypsi's fall damage for years now 😂

[keen plover]

I’d add dryo to the list cause why not. Galli being able to survive larger falls is cursed to me

[distant torrent]

#balance-feedback message this is so true it HURTS

[quasi grove]

the fact Tenonto got slapped with multiple nerfs with Update 6.5 will never not be sad to me

tail slam? loses base 100 damage whilst maintaining the stam cost and attack speed
alt attacks? cant use em whilst running so less pressure tools against smaller agile attackers
bleed? bloodpool decrease to make it bleed out faster
speed? slowed down so it doesn't outspeed poor little Cerato

[halcyon elk]

Poutine has said words. And the words are true

[quasi grove]

herbivores must eat grass and die

it is the way of the island

[quasi grove]

nerf herbivores into requiring insane amounts of practice, effort, and knowledge of the game to survive as
wonder where all the herbivores are

[hardy dagger]

@solid imp The crazy part is troodon supposedly has a higher speed according to the stats but it simply isnt true

[fallen vale]

It worked out so well. Patch 6.0 was such a great success

and 6.5 is so much fun also

Even if you don't play much herbivore, you should have an interest in having more people interested in picking herbivores as a carnivore player

[fallen vale]

👆

[frail elbow]

A lot of the issues with teno(mostly tail slam no longer countering carno charge) is related to the same issue that causes troodon and raptor to take hits after landing pounces.
It's all related to the latency issues(NOT PING don't @ me it's not ping issues). A well timed slam still stuns, but often the teno goes down because latency says the charge landed while also saying the slam landed. It's supposed to be one or the other, not both. Until latency is acknowledged and addressed to smooth things back out, we're going to continue to see unfair hits and stupid outcomes where skill doesn't matter because just spam alt attack or charge to win.

[analog mirage]

@cloud knoll reminder that Tenos Tailslam also got its damage cut in half

Also knockdowns pretty much are non existent. You have a better chance at hitting a stunned Carno than something you knock down

Kick makes sense to cost some good stam cause you get your high damage attack

[fallen vale]

Latency is a physics problem. There are things that can be done to reduce a bit it's effect but it will always be a thing on any online game. However charge does cancel out tail slam while applying damage. Also the locking of tail slams while being pounced + AFTER the person drops off is absurd. Punishing greedy utahs who came to double pounce and baiting them was always a pretty good strategy. Not only pounce has no risk involved anymore, is pretty much instant. Cannot be countered on the way out but also prevents you from punishing other incoming pouncers

And that is on top of the alt attack while running nerf and the MASSIVE ridiculous buff of removing failing pounce animations entirely

When a bunch of utahs arrive you can just turn on the circus music

POUNCE FAIL POUNCE FAIL POUNCE FAIL POUNCE FAIL POUNCE

[fallen vale]

forgot about that one

The bottom line is the carnivores are in an arms race (which is the litteral definition of power creeping) but not only are herbivores left behind, they get massively nerfed on top of it

Leading to what we have today. A stale, dull and boring ecosystem. Where half the server is treating the game as a 3D chat as deino somewhere. and you roam around and see nothing but the same few carnivore species who usually end up megapacking

I don't think it's an accident that the number of concurrent players on the game fell so low and so fast after 4 dinos were just released

It's just bad. I would prefer a lot of play with the balance from 4.0, 4.5 or 5.0 than 6.0 and 6.5

It was more varied with more stuff happening

[analog mirage]

Honestly I think cera and Omni are fine. Omni just needs tap pouncing to work in reverse effect where you can deal more more bleed the longer you stay on. Other than that it’s fine

Carno is really the only carnivore with major problems

Pachy just needs its stun again but slightly altered as I posted

Teno just needs some kit adjustments

[distant torrent]

cera is absolutely not fine with the amount of stam it has, the lack of stam cost to attacks, and the lack of non-biting attacks being able to go through the vomitlock

it’s going to destroy anything slower than it like it destroys stego and teno with its vomit

[analog mirage]

I see a lot of people complaining about cera having too much stamina but I think it’s the opposite. Cera is as fast as Teno which is kinda obsurd. Cera needs that stamina so it can actually travel around the map at a good pace. I think if it’s speed was nerfed to 39 kmph it would be better

Charged bite is also…a charged attack which is why it doesn’t cost stam

[distant torrent]

making it 1 km slower won’t help it at all

it’ll still out stam tenos and destroy stegos

probably will annihilate dibble

[analog mirage]

Stego leaves it on 50 hp if it isn’t hit on the head I think stego is fine against cera

Again, Teno is the one who needs buffs to it’s kit so it stands a chance against cera. Instead of just running away from a cera, Tailslam it when it comes close and follow up with a kick and walk away

You’ll save so much stam

[distant torrent]

it’s not fine at all if you’ve seen the current stego vs competent cera fights. there’s almost nothing a stego can do. it can’t outrun them, and it can’t attack while vomiting. 3 charged bites at the same time = any attacks in motion cancelled and free hits for the ceras

[analog mirage]

If a stego knows how to not aimlessly swing it’s tail it can hit a cera as it comes up to you

[distant torrent]

this so called “scavenger” doesn’t need to be such a godly hunter that it is now

[analog mirage]

I do agree that cera shouldn’t be fighting stego but that’s more a issue with bile not scaling with size

[distant torrent]

scaling with size + non-biting attacks not being able to ignore the vomit lock

[analog mirage]

Yes. You should be able to swing while vomiting. But that’s still not a cera issue, just a mechanic issue

Just cera abusing its mechanic

[distant torrent]

I’d personally consider it a cera issue because that’s one of cera’s unique abilities. it’d be like saying the OP ram isn’t a carno issue. I guess it’s how you view it but the specifics really aren’t all too important

[analog mirage]

True. Vomit just needs some minor tweaks and cera won’t be able to abuse it as much. Other than that cera is fine

[distant torrent]

it really does

[analog mirage]

Tenos who get outpaced by Ceras usually waste their stamina running away rather than just slapping it a few times

[distant torrent]

there is no chance of escape from ceras with full carb diets (which is so easy to get with rot )

my mans got a whole 2 minutes of runtime

[high atlas]

Doesnt carno have no turn radius?

Turn is bad

[solid imp]

I tested it and troo is slightly faster but it still looks hella unnatural lol

[compact cypress]

Can there be a limit of each type of dino present in the map?

[fallen vale]

Wellllll we do it on my server lol

but I don't think official servers will ever go in that direction

From what I have understood

[novel walrus]

@zealous scaffold pretty sure theres gonna be enough sumac, pumpkin and marigold with migrations

[zealous scaffold]

im roaming for 3 hours and i found no marigold

checked every spot that has marigold

[dusky surge]

bleed and speed both did not happen. Its speed is higher than cera's and its bleed was never changed.

The other two did

[quasi grove]

bleed did happen
Teno bleeds out faster than it used to

[dusky surge]

yea, but its bloodpool is the same

[quasi grove]

Teno used to be 40.5
got slowed down because Cera

[dusky surge]

and then cera got slowed down lol

i honestly don't know why they did all that lol

because cera ended up slower regardless

[quasi grove]

but yeah
Teno got nuetered for no reason
Pachy having to deal with oranges being bugged and Cerato outstamming it if Pachy goes any other diet whilst mauling it with fracture resist ruined its numbers
Bepi, Dryo and Hypsi having nothing to do but eat grass, run around, be cute and die means they stop getting played when the novelty fades
Galli has the same food bug issues Pachy does, and is also just a runner that can kick babies now
and Stego is Stego, unfit for instagating interesting interactions in the current roster

meanwhile the carnivores get 4 extremely powerful classes to play as (some more powerful than others)
and the best scout dino in the game (flying is always cool)
and their only wet noodle that is Troodon

[dusky surge]

also why do people want galli nerfed now
#balance-feedback message

i liked this feedback till they brought out the galli nerf for no reason

[hasty coyote]

Troodon isn’t bad, it’s just held back majorly by a bug. When you latch on something thers like a half second window where the target can still hit you. While this isn’t a massive problem for Omni, it 1-shots troo 90% of the time.

[quasi grove]

Troodon is bad because of this bug
When the bug is gone it can be re-evaluated

Hence why I'm also saying Pachy and Galli are bad because of bugs

[dusky surge]

i dont think pachy is bad because of a bug, i think it's just bad

[quasi grove]

Pachys close to okay
But Cerato and Omni ruin it

[dusky surge]

eh, not really

[quasi grove]

Why did they lower Pachys bleed resist?

[dusky surge]

they didnt

[quasi grove]

They did

[hasty coyote]

Pachy isn’t bad because it’s bugged, that’s a qol issue sure, but it’s manageable. It’s bad because it gets run down by cera, loses at least half its health the moment a carno appears, and is just a worse Omni.

[dusky surge]

seems bleed just became more effective across the board for some reason, because the bleed res is the same

its not like they magically nerfed every animal's bleed resist

[quasi grove]

Why can you never hit a leg fracture on something that's alt attacking
Why does charges movement depend insanely on what angle of terrain you are on

Pachy outspeeds Cera
It just gets outstammed if it's not also stam diet, which is hell with orange bug

[dusky surge]

eh, i see more issue with carbs than oranges lol

[quasi grove]

Oranges are carbs

And 2/3 of every bush being unedible doesn't help

[dusky surge]

viability should not hinge on whether you eat apples or oranges

[quasi grove]

Currently it does
Because of a bug

[dusky surge]

you're missing the point

[quasi grove]

That stacks ontop of Cerato being an unattackable menace to Pachys 1v1
Stacks ontop of Omni packs just nuking your HP or blood pool by dog piling you on sight
And stacks ontop of making 1 mistake against Carno, a playable that forces the interaction onto you, being death

[hasty coyote]

Pachy can outrun cera, if they both have full stam. Pachy uses like 20% from just running around, and now the random bush cera mauls it

[quasi grove]

Pachys food management is so bad that its carnivore rival has an easier time actually hitting group limit than Pachy ever will

[distant torrent]

last time I saw a full pachy herd was last update

[hasty coyote]

Pachy’s only good matchup atm is bad omnis. A good Omni is scary though because it can run circles around you.

[distant torrent]

which was how long ago? months?

[quasi grove]

But yeah
I agree with the sentiment of Poutines post

All of evrimas herbis (+Bepi & Galli) except Stego have been getting repeatedly nerfed by intentional or unintentional changes to the game
Where it's carnivores are always notably stronger and easier to succeed as in comparison due to just being more efficient and powerful within their roles
And then people wonder where all the herbis went

[dusky surge]

even stego kinda just sucks comparatively to other options

sure, people say it's OP, but are you willing to grow it when you could also grow a deino in arguably less time, and recieve an animal that is easily better?

[quasi grove]

God imagine Omni and Troodon without their current pounce bugs

I love having Update 5 Omni back

[hasty coyote]

He went on about teno but here’s what happened to pachy this patch alone:
Cc thresholds reduced massively.
Can now only knock down
Knockdown timers reduced
Fracture damage reduced
alt attacks can only be used while standing still.
Ram now only goes forwards, rather than giving a slight angle.

Though it did get a slight speed buff throughout growth and at adult to help it outrun ceras.

Meanwhile Omni got buffed by the knockdown changes and no longer has a missed pounce delay.

[dusky surge]

its so bizarre how carnivore mains are chronically allergic to any of the actual difficulty a carnivore has to go to make a hunt

it has gotten to the point where i, a carnivore main, use carnivore main as an insult

[quasi grove]

Pachy and Teno both getting utterly neutered in the first patch where Don takes the balance reigns

[dusky surge]

the pachy was deserved

let's not kid and pretend pachy wasn't absolutely ridiculous in U6

[quasi grove]

Pachys stagger change was
Everything else wasn't

[hasty coyote]

Not this this extent

[dusky surge]

but the gunshot to teno for no reason other than just being there

my ONLY assumption for the teno nerf is because cerato got shredded in a teno combo (which it absolutely should've)

[hasty coyote]

Pachy just needed some stun adjustments, not everything else

[quasi grove]

Clearly Teno isn't being a good food playable
So it needs to be weaker so the Omnis can solo it again

[dusky surge]

i also find we fall often into the "herd animal fallacy", where an animal is designed with the context that is meant to herd, even if it isn't

teno and stego both are terrible herd animals

big long inaccurate tails that are far too easy to friendly fire with means most "herd fights" involve these animals splitting up and basically making it that they all fight independent fights nearby

[hasty coyote]

I don’t think a single animal in the game should be strictly a “herd animal” stronger in a group, sure, almost everything is. But if it comes at the expense of being useless solo, then no.

[dusky surge]

good herd animals:

• galli (actively benefitted in attack, defense and mobility from being in a herd)
• diablo (actually helps cover weaknesses of other animals, can create shield walls to defend smaller members, etc)

okay-ish herd animals:

• pachy (combined efforts can help murk a threat much easier, but due to their mobile nature, they can often end up accidentally hitting another pachy)
• dryo (can warn others of an approaching threat, but otherwise, meh)

bad herd animals:

• teno (they have little ways to defend others, being a brawler type, and their kit is built more for self defence than anything else. High friendly fire chance)
• stego (they literally hit their friends so often it isn't funny)

[mortal tundra]

@novel walrus I think that would be really helpful, especially when you're getting attacked by your species. One time I made a nest with somebody as a pachy, then an aggro one came and killed her and I heard her 4 calling, (help call) then when I came over he ran, hid in a bush, ran out and broke my leg so I couldn't fight back. R.I.P. 🪦 😭

[fallow blaze]

also an interesting version

I would not say that a classification of herds is so simple.
The whole thing is again based on skill.
I have Teno Junkies in my community and they show that Teno is an excellent herd animal.
I agree with Mr. Bee that the Teno's weaponry is not ideal for a herd, but I can tell you: a skilled Teno player will take your butt off in a herd. And if it's only Teno's it becomes even more difficult.
Because they do NOT trigger the tail slam. One does it by arrangement with the others and the rest uses the other weapon. ideally...

the Teno has a lot of life points
a good damage
and can take enough friendly fire until things get tricky.

What is dangerous for him on land is a Carno pack consisting of 3 (vs 3-4 Tenos)

Galli's weapons aren't bad, yes, but he's still a better spotter than the dryo. because of its speed. Well we use it like this haha.

Everything what is written here is correct haha
It depends heavily on the individual style of play

[dusky surge]

fun teno fact!

it has less health and damage than a carno! meaning its "good life points" and "good damage" aren't as good as carno's, who also has better speed and pack capabilities! epic, right?

teno sucks atm, and it's sad

a very skilled teno is on equal level now to an average carno that knows the basics of its animal

2 average carnos easily stomps a skilled teno

[fallow blaze]

Of cause it has left health
Carno weight 500kg more.
Teno Has to be less health.
And carno has an advantage of cause.
I also feel that the teno is getting the short end of the stick in this update..
but he is still not an easy opponent for the Csrno.
If that were the case, then the Carnos wouldn't always have to wait for the right time to attack

[dusky surge]

carno does not have 500kg more, what?

[fallow blaze]

Ya sonething like that✅

[dusky surge]

teno is 1600kg, carno is 1800kg

[fallow blaze]

Oh right
It was 1400 to 1800
Sry count wrong 😅

1600? No way
Wait a second

[dusky surge]

Yea it's 1600, always has been

[fallow blaze]

Oh 1600
Your right
Sry for that!!!
Did that change?

Ok dont know what my brain told me haha

[slim dragon]

Last time it changed was in update 3

[fallow blaze]

crazy
I could have sworn that it was until the release of the Dietsystem 1400😅😅😅
but you will probably be right

[fallen vale]

Not only does it suck. Its so boring to play. Most stegos at this point either pick it because they know they will most likely not get harrassed too much or wanna do some lame grieffing.

[dusky surge]

and even then, you can be better at lame griefing as a deino lol

[fallen vale]

Ever since 6.0 dropped I have noticed in my own community and the people that I know that most people actually no longer play this game. They come back to tryout the patches but quickly find out that the meta sucks, that you either bump into litterally always the same species that are typically overpacking if not mixpacking

I'm glad I have my own server where we artificially balance the ecosystem in order that busted species are kept in check a bit and we prevent mixpacking. I can no longer play on officials and most of my 2000+ hours have been on officials

It's just bad

It's been a year

[dusky surge]

Clear issues present themselves
A: The map caters itself entirely to deino meta, deinos are never once challenged to find or hunt prey, because the map is entirely built with them first in mind
B: Herbivores lack any and all engagement due to the fact their gameplay loop SUCKS (ideally improved by migrations) and their kits suck (something that needs to be balanced out)
C: Map explicitly just... doesn't like to spawn food out of centre. So everyone is forced to be there, making carnivores know exactly where all the food is, and herbivores struggle to even hit adult

[fallen vale]

But power creeping is really out of hand

As new dinos got added they kept buffing carnivores to keep up

[dusky surge]

Yea, agreed. Teno is still the clear example of good balance, yet it keeps getting nerfed for some beyond bizarre reason

[fallen vale]

while at the same time nerfing herbies, again

[dusky surge]

I haven't seen a teno buff in ages despite it never once being the peak of any ecosystem, it always sits in a comfortably balanced state

[fallen vale]

Some of these dinos are just too fast with one sided abilities that involve no risk at all anymore to pull off

[dusky surge]

Carno's speed would be fine if it didn't hit like a ballistic missile as well and focused more on a pursuit/endurance playstyle where it compensated for low damage by being hard to lose. Instead, it runs up, nukes you, then wins

[fallen vale]

Not just buffs. Locking tail slams while + after being pounced. Removing claw attacks while sprinting. No longer taking over an incoming charge with a tail slam. Are massive nerfs without even taking into account all the ridiculous buffs like what the they did with charge and the removal of any form of recovery for somehow managing to miss a pounce

Same goes with pachy

[dusky surge]

The worst part is, carno isn't a good animal. It's REALLY bad, it's just carried by ONE attack

It's the most instable balance position I've ever seen anything

[fallen vale]

Yeah well I called it out the first time I saw it when they entirely reworked carno on 6.0 ST and no one listened

I clearly said you can't release this like that lol

[dusky surge]

A single buff or nerf in its current state will make it either immediately broken or incredibly garbage

[fallen vale]

was so obvious what would happen

Group up with a few carnos -> spam charge to death anything

Depop entire server except I guess stegos

And deinos

But who cares about those?

[dusky surge]

I mean, if people get what they want, deino will be stronger than stego, so we'll never see a herbi again

[fallen vale]

It's been a year that it's like that. Not only did they do that but in 6.5 they removed that you could cancel a charge with tail slam

They tought "you know what? Teno is too strong still" while 6.0 was a complete one sided carno fest

[dusky surge]

with the massive stam rework coming soon, one can only hope the animals that spend more stam in their combat (herbivores) get buffs so they can actually FIGHT

[dusky surge]

Every single dominant animal in U6 could kick a teno's ass. It's actually insane people thought it was strong

Pachy, carno and deino all shredded teno no problem

[novel lance]

u can still cancel, its just wayyyy more difficult

[dusky surge]

Like in the rare chance that someone actually saw a teno in the wild, the fact that they then proceeded to fight it and lose to it, then complain about it in #balance-feedback was honestly a testament to the mind of The Isle player

[fallen vale]

I have a hard time believing a lot of the people who gave feedback on some of those changes in the ST actually play this game other than on a excel spreadsheets to be honest

Because I remember I and a few others who were quite vocal and who mysteriously didn't make it back into the new ST were definately a minority

I had to argue with people that vomit lock was completely busted and had to be removed. The single most busted thing I can remember in this game

[dusky surge]

I honestly would not be surprised if diablo either
A: Release in a state where it just gets stomped on
B: Releases in a competent state and carnivore mains cry about it so much it gets immediately nerfed to oblivion

remember when people, who were only watching the ST because the embargo lifted and had no experience with it, were complaining about cera being "too weak" because a single video showed carno killing it

even though everyone playing cera were new because it was a brand new animal

and they wanted their "carno counter" more than anything

[fallen vale]

Yeah that's really cool on a 1v1 on an emtpy 10 slots server. On 100+ servers the best you can hope is both cancelling out but still taking the charge damage anyway

[dusky surge]

i hope to God diablo is good, teno gets fixed and pachy actually becomes viable, but carnivores will literally fight any herbivore that can competently fight back

hot take but teno should be expected to be able to 2v1 carnos, not die in a 1v1

[fallen vale]

I had the same issue during 5.0 ST when they buffed a lot Utah and almost entirely removed failed pounce recovery animatin (they litteraly removed it in 6.5, lol). Which lead to 5.0 being dominated by large utah packs, which was super predictable.

What I found is that most people don't give a damn about having a balanced ecosystem and somewhat fair matchups. They have their personal favourite one trick poney and they will argue anything as long as they can keep getting buffs after buffs no matter what despite probably knowing very well it's just gonna hurt the game. And the feedback they gave translated into that

Thank god they no longer have to go trough "team leads" in order to get feedback accross and I could write entire essays on my own and speak my mind without knowing very well that what would come out on the other end was "Utah fine, nerf other dinos"

[dusky surge]

The issue compounds itself where

• Carnivores are strong
• More people play carnivores because carnivores are strong
• They grow attached to those carnivores and don't want to see them nerfed or easily defeated
• They make feedback requesting said carnivores get buffed or the herbivores that kill them get nerfed
• Carnivores are strong

Also doesn't help that 3 out of 5 herbivores are incomplete so why the hell would you play them lol

[fallen vale]

I have played A LOT of carno. Probably as much as teno. I got known initially for teno gameplay and went along with the persona but that is because teno was not played much and there was very few tenos out there doing decent fight videos. Back in 3.0 I could spend entire evenings playing teno and would bump into one or 2 others despite teno being probably at the strongest it ever was in relation to other dinos. I think overall herbivores were never that popular, however you knew when you picked it that you were gonna be always surrounded by more foes but if you played your cards well you stood a chance.

Now you are always in much lower numbers but you know that on top of it the balanced is warped in the other camp's direction AND some abilities like carno charge scale in power to ridiculous levels with numbers

As a teno player you will either bump into large packs of utahs who will chain pounce at no risk, when they pull it off your slam is locked anyway. If you bump into carnos they will spam charge you at no risk and pile up damage (it still register) even if you manage to cancel out some charges. Or you had the vomit locks which was an instant depop with more than 1 cera, that got nerfed to some degree but vomit is still a bit too strong in my opinion. Still Cera is the most fair matchup at the moment I would say. Troodon is just as busted against teno it's just dying to stupid stuff at the moment, wait intil they patch that out...

[novel lance]

ive done it where u dont take damage

[fallen vale]

so do I, the point is game balance should not be calibrated around server flukes

[rugged pollen]

only works if u kinda move to the side and then tailslam rn, teno in UP6 cld counter attack without having to move aside, but rn bc of carnos extended hitbox for charge/ the latency , cant counter it when u try in a straightline (idk if that makes sense)

rn whenever i play carno , cld just charge a teno without being scared of being countered , as u can predict where they go if they do decide to do the side slam thing

[gray niche]

I’ve been dying to carnos recently (as teno) and was confused because in the past I’ve been fine with them. Now that I read these comments, I get it. Can’t intercept their charge anymore, really struggle to dodge it (desync and hit boxes?), and there’s always at least two of them. I’m just plowed over repeatedly until I die and it feels like I can’t do anything about it, especially if caught out in the open. Not very fun.

[winter iris]

@fallen vale I agree teno has become worse than it used to be, but I don’t agree that its main problem is carno and also, it s not very true that carno is a charge machine. Carno’s ability to ram is a lot worse than it used to be, as well as its acceleration (which is worst than stego atm). In group a carno is still very dangerous, but it’s definitely fightable. I think groups of cerato or single ceras as well are a lot more of threat for everything else , although carno is , on paper, stronger. Carno has got many weaknesses that can be used as an advantage when fighting it, unlike cerato for example (which is also a lot more fun to play atm).
I agree with you that omni pounce should be reviewed in the next update

[dusky surge]

Carno is absolutely a charge machine, the only viable attack it has is charge

[distant torrent]

saying carno isn’t a charge machine is like saying omni isn’t a bleed machine

[slim dragon]

They're not machines
They're breathing, living animals

[distant torrent]

who all deserve to be buffed so they can live better lives. also so they destroy herbivores better because those things need to eat grass and die

[slim dragon]

You understand well

[random stump]

carno is somehow absolutely garbage and also capable of 1 shotting/1 combo-ing (charge + bite) most of the roster

i dont know HOW we got into this current conundrum but we did

so its really hard to buff it, because just buffing it will make it ungodly levels of op
but you also cant just nerf the charge, because then its truly useless

gotta do both

[fallen vale]

simple. It got all rebalanced around a single ability which scales way too well with numbers. A single carno right now turns like a truck and is pretty much useless and predictable in all its movements. All it has is forward and charge which requires little thinking. Now the fact that it's pretty much not countereable anymore does advantage it but when you have multiple who can just spam it from multiple directions it becomes stupidly lethal. Rebalance carno around what it used so be, a well rounded dinosaur that didn't depend on one stupid ability and make it so that charge requires again a little bit of anticipation and can be countered if used in a greedy / predictable way.

[random stump]

so basically
they made carno from an animal with a kit
to 1 trick pony that overrelies on a busted ability

[fallen vale]

exactly

Same happened with utah to some degree

Pounce is busted, risk free and brain dead and they nerfed Utah's turn speed and bite damage to prevent the @karmic lynx style of gameplay

[slim dragon]

@onyx lichen And that's why you can change when and where to dismount
So you aren't predictable, and the situation in the clip doesn't happen

[onyx lichen]

You can just turn the direction the Troodon pounced you on and keep turning that way until they jump off then you can just run that direction without needing to turn, you can just run straight

[slim dragon]

You can aim the dismount

[onyx lichen]

Yeah, but Cera can still turn fast enough to catch you

[slim dragon]

I guess it does if it can predict perfectly when and in which direction you're gonna dismount

[onyx lichen]

It's not hard to predict the dismount direction

[slim dragon]

It is as hard as predicting any move from a player
If you're too predictable, then change tactics

[golden coral]

Might be harder if there's an entire pack and it's night time or otherwise less open?

[onyx lichen]

You can just focus on 1 that pounced you then easily catch them

[slim dragon]

Then all they have to do is to never dismount while the others kill you as you're waiting for that one to dismount

[onyx lichen]

Bucking or you could get pounced by a pack mate

[slim dragon]

If they buck they're not predicting your dismount
Then you dismount safely

That's called out-skilling the opponent, and that's a very common thing in PvP games

I'm not sure we need troodon to have the ability to safely dismount from a cerato at any time and be effectively able to 1v1 it without the cera making any mistake

[golden coral]

Maybe, but I imagine it's a little trickier when there's a whole swarm running around, able to pounce you again or otherwise distract or intercept

[onyx lichen]

If You're just gonna hang on then they're just gonna buck, and you can still turn and run while bucking

[slim dragon]

But you can't attack

[golden coral]

But this, probably comes down again to pounce being far too lacking in skill in the first place, hence why dismount can't be too safe

[onyx lichen]

The bucking animation doesn't really delay attacking by much and Cera can still keep up with a Troodon

[slim dragon]

that's because cera is too fast

[onyx lichen]

Yeah, anything with good turning and acceleration can easily catch you as soon as you land

[pure apex]

have you ever seen troodons that takes down adult cera or stego btw? i have seen every one just dies when they try jump off from them?

[slim dragon]

yes

[pure apex]

rly? xD

[onyx lichen]

All the time

[golden coral]

Not seen it, but I've heard that stegos can be taken down, which is honestly so strange if it's even remotely true

[onyx lichen]

Not the taking down part, the dying part

[golden coral]

Cera I imagine is slightly trickier, due to their speed, plus the funny resistance and all they have

[pure apex]

then they must been in discord or smth

[golden coral]

Probably, but not neccesarily, coordination isn't that hard to pull off if everyone involved have a basic understanding of how to play

[pure apex]

all i see is stego hitting with tail after ppl jumps off, same as cera who just turns and bite

[onyx lichen]

Doing a bucking animation should delay certain attacks after a while, like Stego standing on its back legs when bucking then being able to stop right away and tail swing seems too much

[golden coral]

Dismount towards stego head, at least I've heard it puts you out of range. Unless possibly if the stego manages to attack right as you attempt to dismount perhaps, or turns to disorient the dismount

[golden coral]

When pounce requires a running start and only works if you hit the flanks and automatically fails and put you on your ass if you hit the front or rear, sure.

Pounce, for both troodon and omni needs to be somewhat skill based and actually dangerous to do before the dismount can be safe

[onyx lichen]

Don't need to run to do a pounce animation, just need to look at an angle

or jump and M2

[golden coral]

Hence why I said "when", as in, it should require a running start

[slim dragon]

Or a charge-up if you do it when standing

[golden coral]

My point was that if bucking is to only be used to get the mounted raptor off, it needs to be way harder to get a mount in the first place and way more dangerous

[onyx lichen]

Yeah pouncing should be the dangerous part, the dismount should be safe

[golden coral]

Since the risk and death should apply at least on one of those parts, possibly both depending on the target (stego should be able to hit on dismount, thats the point of the tail, a trike on the other hand should not)

But currently, there's no need to aim the pounce, at all, and no punishment on miss either, so well, I can't really say that risking death on dismount is all that bad honestly

[onyx lichen]

The only punishment is needing to accelerate to max speed again and losing some stam

[golden coral]

Sure, having a stagger/slowdown and some extra stam punishment (10% or so) would be nice. Granted it doesn't really solve the main issue which is the lack of needing to aim the pounce, but it's something at least!

[onyx lichen]

I heard someone suggest that when Omni misses a pounce it should take some damage/recoil

[golden coral]

I think I'd prefer the slowdown/stamina, it makes more sense. Recoil or knockdown could be for pouncing the wrong parts, such as face/rear instead of the flanks if anything

[onyx lichen]

R&D is being worked on with Pouncing we might get something like that

[slim dragon]

There was a time when there was a punishment for missing a pounce
But that was removed for some reason

[golden coral]

I'd also like to see more interaction between pouncing/bucking

[onyx lichen]

The punishment worked for Omni since it launches its whole body at the target, while Troodon just launched its face and arms

[hasty coyote]

I have tested this, you have to wait for the stego to swing before you dismount, it can hit you mid air after dismount. If you only do tap pounces they can just time it to hit you every time.

[mortal tundra]

@hallow garden Carnos are going to have higher acceleration soon I believe, and there are upcoming stam changes. (I'm not sure how that will work.)

Carno is also the second fastest creature in the game, and the only way to escape is by draining it's stamina. As a cerato the only way to escape is to weaken the carno enough, which is hard if they know how to use alt attacks, or just keep dodging to drain the carno's stamina and then run away.

What I'm saying is carnos shouldn't be able to run anything and everything down because they have really high stamina. You can kill most creatures before you run out, like tenos, ceras, gallis, (if you ambush the galli) etc. And you can chase down a lot of creatures because of your speed, as long as you don't waste your stamina. I played as a carno recently and was mostly fine, until a raptor 1v1d me and I died. (He was a good player, don't judge me.)

[distant torrent]

carno’s ram needs to be changed so the playable isn’t completely dominating with the new accel it’s getting

[hallow garden]

I agree that carno shouldn’t be able to run everything down, but I also think that in the current climate of the isle it literally can’t survive solo. Honestly I don’t even care that much about acceleration I just think it needs like an extra 10-15 seconds of stamina. Im sick of dying to lack of stamina. I guess is what I’m trying to say.

I think carno’s charge needs to be nerfed tho

It’s people should have more time to get up

[onyx lichen]

With the new stamina changes coming like Running too much decreases stam regen, it should suffer less from stam regen decreases

[hallow garden]

I think nerfed charge and buffed stamina and accel will make it actually worthwhile to play.

Either that or they do something about stegos

[dusky surge]

still despise ambush carno

also why buff carno's stam if you want it to be the "ambush predator"

you want a high stam, high acceleration ambush predator that is a small game hunter capable of killing stegos

[keen plover]

Carno can 100% survive solo. Not a matchup where it can't escape or fight back against using terrain and acceleration to your advantage :)

[mortal tundra]

Yeah I was solo for hours. Until a raptor got me.

[mortal tundra]

Yeah it won't be much of an ambush predator like that.

[keen plover]

oof

[dusky surge]

from what i've seen, it will be

unfortunately

[mortal tundra]

https://tenor.com/view/lets-go-gif-22712392

[dusky surge]

no indication of charge getting nerfed, only buffs to stamina duration and accel

basically, full ambush, which sucks

[keen plover]

Acceleration lets it pursue much better than now

[dusky surge]

true

[keen plover]

It got an overall buff to both hunting styles

[mortal tundra]

And if you get stuck on a sub-adult stego's tail you don't explode.

[dusky surge]

but if charge remains as is, have fun with "pursuits" that don't instantly end with carno bulldozing you because charge is god

[keen plover]

hmmm?

[dusky surge]

also stegos are really not that big an issue and i still am baffled to see people genuinely calling for them to be "fixed"

[keen plover]

I'm worried that the acceleration change means that you can barely react in time even outside of charge

Like yeah it will be fun as the carno, but I'm worried that Teno & Cera get deleted without a fight

[hallow garden]

I don’t want it to kill stegosaurus lol I just want it to be able to get away from them when they body camp

[dusky surge]

it can tho

it's literally the most capable of doing that

[hallow garden]

Not if it wants to eat from its kill

[dusky surge]

well, yes, that's why you don't try to eat in front of the stego lol

[mortal tundra]

If you get stuck on a stego by running into it if it hits you a few times you die. But, this is true of all creatures and can't really be prevented. I was just saying their acceleration is really bad so if you do get stuck you can't get away before you die.

[hasty coyote]

just use the age old tactic of boredom. Just leave after the kill or whenever the stego shows up and wait in the forest for like 5 mins. Then come back and 9/10 times the stego is gone. If it aint, then go find some other food.

[hallow garden]

ive tried that lol

today there was a stego guarding a cerato body for a full 45 mins after we killed it

and the only other food was being guarded by utahs and tenos

[hasty coyote]

damn, stego really had nothing better to do lmao, I'm surprised it didnt even go get water

[hallow garden]

fr

I hate stego players that do that

I understand why tho I think

I mean

they literally have nothing to do since basically nothing can fight them rn not even deino lol

[dusky surge]

honestly i only just realised but stegos are literally just doing the same thing deinos do

both stay near vital resources for survival in hopes that something will approach them so that they can kill it. Stego for food, deino for water. Difference is, deino is better at it and is overall a better, stronger animal, whereas stego literally is just trying to make its boring-ass animal feel strong for a small period

people are fine with deino doing the thing because it's a gator and that's what gators do, and if you don't like it, you're told to "leave and find a safer drinking spot"

but when stegos do it, people are up in arms and will become furious if they're told to "leave and find a safer meal"

it's literally the same thing

[hallow garden]

theres a difference though. Deino actually does it because it needs to for food. Meanwhile stego only does it to be a dick or because their dino is boring and nothing fights them. And stego also isnt nearly as limited as deino when it comes to what resources they can guard. Because they were also chasing us off water.

I dont think the stego problem is going to be fixed until it gets an actual predator like an apex or something that is on land

[dusky surge]

deino doesn't do it for food lol, it will literally lunge 3kg baby raptors with an entire dead deino in its water and 5 fish swimming around, it does it to be a dick

deino is one of the best fed animals in the game

[hallow garden]

fair enough, but deino is still much more limited

in terms of what it can do

and also you never see them guarding bodies that are on land. or if you do then its very rare

the difference with stego and deino is that you can go somewhere else for water, but you cant always do that for food.

often you just cant for food reliably

[keen plover]

Bodies rot faster now ;(

[dusky surge]

deino has access to every single waterway, has water sense, bleed resist, more health than stego, the ability to one shot ANYTHING below 4 tons (meaning it has more effective damage than stego), the ability to dive, the ability to just walk onto land uncontested as long as a stego doesn't exist in its range (which is likely given how much more common deinos are than stegos), etc, etc

deino is not limited

[hallow garden]

its limited to guarding water

[keen plover]

Stegos food and water timer allows it to camp bodies without worry. Now that bodies also rot faster, the only thing that stops them is boredom

[dusky surge]

not really no

[hallow garden]

well

[dusky surge]

and with stego's soon-to-be unofficial banishment, it's free to go any and everywhere

[hallow garden]

unofficial banishment?

[dusky surge]

you think stego bodyguards were bad? Just wait till your raptor crew has to face against the animal with a bigger blood pool and an insane bleed resist

[keen plover]

I'm worried they'll make Deino more water bound :(

[dusky surge]

they literally HAVE TO

if stego's going away from officials, they have no other choice but to make deino literally a fish

[hallow garden]

either way, it doesnt change the fact that the problem is there

[dusky surge]

this is the result of their own decisions

[dusky surge]

stego is really not a problem, if anything, it's a solution

without it, deino is free to safely wander every and anywhere

no competition, no fear, every body is for it to claim

[hallow garden]

so stegos chasing carnis off a body and just sitting on it until it rots isnt a problem?

[dusky surge]

not really no

[hallow garden]

why?

It dumbfounds me how you think that that is good gameplay

[dusky surge]

it's one corpse. I just find something else or just wait for them to get bored

it's inevitably going to happen

[hallow garden]

often times you just cant

especially when there are a billion stegos around doing the same thing

[dusky surge]

trike isn't going to come out and suddenly decide it's going to play with chivalry

it will bodyguard carnos to kingdom come

[hallow garden]

I know, but it will have rex to counter it

bodyguarding wont be nearly as much of an issue with a large land apex present

[dusky surge]

and stego can be countered by like, troodon, cera, omni, teno, another stego, deinos

[keen plover]

How does that stop a trike from body guarding a carno or cera :O

[hallow garden]

it wont be so bored so it wont feel the need to

plus it will have rex challenging it every so often for sure

[keen plover]

Stego on a body is countered by ceras though

[hallow garden]

not by anything else

[dusky surge]

so wait

stego bodyguard = bad because you can't get the food
stego bodyguard with rex around = fine because rex can pressure stego off the food but you still can't get it

like, you still aren't getting the food

[hallow garden]

not necessarily

[dusky surge]

the only one getting the food is the big guy who scared off the stego

[hallow garden]

the stego will know that there is more risk

to guarding a body

so they defo wont stick around too long around a free meal

[dusky surge]

tenos still guard bodies despite being terrible and dying to ceras and carnos consistently

[hallow garden]

true, but with teno its not impossible to get the food

it is with stegos

[dusky surge]

why not? if the carnos are just running into their thagomizer and there's literally no one else around, they're not going to go "what if a rex spontaneously appears"

[hallow garden]

also its way less common with tenos

[hallow garden]

I guarantee there will always be a rex at hotspots

[dusky surge]

i mean, considering ceras, omnis, troodons, tenos, other stegos and deinos can all kill them, i feel that it's not that big a deal

[keen plover]

1 counter, or 5. Players will still bodyguard vs weaker creatures

[dusky surge]

and then a rex will show up and then take the body and your carno still goes hungry

either way, you are still best off leaving

and finding new food

[hallow garden]

it doesnt make sense for herbis to do it is what im tryna say I guess

cuz a carni does it for food

[keen plover]

Yeah I understand. But that would require a mechanic addition to stop them from doing so

[hallow garden]

and herbis only do it because their gameplay is boring in its current state

[dusky surge]

herbi does it to prevent carnis from getting food and thus presenting a greater risk later, because that kills the carni

[keen plover]

That is also a part of it

[hallow garden]

I guarantee that the line of thought doesnt go that far most of the time

[keen plover]

Most of it comes down to "I can kill this guy & it will be fun"

[hallow garden]

which comes to the next issue

which is the isle's lack of good gameplau

literally the only fun thing to do is kill others

[dusky surge]

regardless, as of U6.5, every herbi is just a worse version of their carnivore equivilant because balance is bleh and they are boring as sin, so the few that do exist kinda just wanna do fun stuff before their betters come along and eat them

[hallow garden]

fair enough

but the fact stands that I think the problem would be reduced if stego has something to hunt it and win consistently in a 1v1 fight

[dusky surge]

i mean, i personally don't see stego as half the problem that deino is

it's remarkably inoffensive as an animal, if not kind of woefully weak

the only reason it looks remotely strong is it's placed in an ecosystem of tiny babies and a gator that sucks against anything big

against anything like rex it'd literally just get folded

in reality, it's a dark souls boss with one big telegraphed attack that if you learn to dodge, really isn't a threat

[thin mantle]

I’m glad me describing stego as a bad dark souls boss is catching on lol

[coarse blaze]

You don't even have to learn to dodge a steg, just don't go near them. That single steg isn't guarding the only food on the server.

Half the time I see stegs camping bodies it's a "this creature was with me, you killed it and in turn I won't let you eat them." situation. If you're gonna pick that fight you gotta weigh in that possibility that you still might not win your food even if you get the kill.

I love how people complain about that but not the many times I've seen deinos crawl onto land and just steal food because nothing can stop them steg aside.

[robust agate]

yall think stego will be able to defend it self well against a rex?

[slim dragon]

not in its current state

[robust agate]

cause no one gonna play steg anymoe when they cant do anything against him lol

[slim dragon]

Yes
That's why it'll hopefully get buffed so it doesn't become a fodder animal

[robust agate]

yeah

i mean its clear that no one wants to grow 4 hours an animal and then just get killed cause a rex saw u

[slim dragon]

Apparently some people seem to want things to be that way

Mostly people who exclusively play carnivores

[dusky surge]

yea, people apparently think "herd animal" is a valid excuse for being trash and useless against a rex

[thin mantle]

Herd animal seems like the title applied to any herbivore the community doesn’t like

[hardy dagger]

Can someone tell me. I was an adult stego and had low stamina but it just would not regenerate

I had some troodons attacking me

[keen plover]

Were they on you?

and were you trotting

Trotting with a troodon = stam loss

Not sure if pounce also makes it so you don't regen

[distant torrent]

I really hope ai won’t be as easy to kill as seen in the content streams. it’s literally just

a walking bag of meat and easy organs. teno ai don’t even fight back and just constantly run what

[latent bay]

That... is stupid

Like good lord that is fill on ridiculous

How does a 6 tonne brick wall of an herbivore get lowered stamina from a little shitter no larger than a dog clinging on it

I do not understand the logic nor reasoning

[dusky surge]

venom..?

[golden coral]

But it has nothing to do with the venom, it's just another questionable mechanic that makes pouncing easier and defending harder

[sage iris]

pls upvote my suggestion

[latent bay]

But like chemically that's not how Troodon's venom was advertised to work. It was intended to just be a stage based damage booster, but if the venom is so potent to where a dog can take an Asian elephant's energy down from just clinging on a lil? Something is wrong, i ain't saying Troodon is good though, as much as I hate the little bastard it shouldn't be as trash as it is, but this is just really whacky imo

[slim dragon]

Troodon really isn't trash

[eager saddle]

if it isn't a good suggestion, it doesn't get upvoted. Case closed.

[sage iris]

it is a good

[sage iris]

but they removed it bcs it was supposed to be in another channel

[latent bay]

In my (albeit limited) experiences, they've been kinda fodder. I've played almost exclusively cera since 6.5 released, and have never actually felt threatened by a Troodon at any age beyond like 45% juvie because I've never lost more than like 20% health to groups any smaller than like 6

[slim dragon]

Well the only time I've played as cera I've been soloed by a troodon
And when playing troodon I could kill ceras with a pack (without even being in voc)

Troodon needing a bit more skill than other playables doesn't make it fodder

[latent bay]

I never said otherwise though

And I dont doubt that Troodon groups can drop a Ceratosaurus, but I've never seen it happen

[dusky surge]

@remote crow scavenger Rex is a myth created by someone who hates Rex. Rex is no more a scavenger than a tiger

[remote crow]

I prefere the scavenger theory instead the battleroyale one...

[dusky surge]

Yea but the scav theory is wrong and makes Rex not the superpredator it was irl

Also I fail to see how Rex is “battle Royale”

[latent bay]

My guy you can't just "prefer" with science. I can "prefer" the law of gravity to not exist, but it still exists anyways

You preferring rex be a scavenger doesn't change that Tyrannosaurus rex was a 12 tonne 30,000 PSI biting extremely agile keen sensing 22 km/h running super predator

[remote crow]

And of course you see him running against an Anchilosaurus... We dont even know the real skin or the real coloue. Its not science, we are Just trying tò Imagine them.

[latent bay]

If rex was made PURELY a scavenger in game, then it would be:

A: Ceratosaurus, but a thousand times less balanced (and subsequently invalidate Ceratosaurus in the process)

And B: not be T. rex. While yes, The Isle shouldn't be constrained to accuracy while creating these dinosaurs, they still have to FEEL like said dinosaur. Spinosaurus is overly strong compared to irl and looks a lot different, but it will likely still FEEL like Spinosaurus aegyptiacus because of its semi-aquatic nature

[latent bay]

Nah you're just wrong. Like straight up. Paleontology is not only considered a science, but we ALSO have multiple dinosaur mummies containing skin pigmentation.

Borealopelta is a SPECTACULARLY preserved specimen, mummified to a point where you can still see where its flesh once was. Its skin lies so intact that the guys working on it found skin pigmentation suggesting Borealopelta had a scarlety red top and a whitish under belly

This fella here is Borealopelta btw

And this is the fossil

So yeah you're just straight up wrong

That's not including the Brachylophosaurus mummy, Edmontosaurus mummified foot, Edmontosaurus skin cells suggesting a banded tail, Microraptor iridescence, and Sinosauropteryxes everything

[remote crow]

You know what, you are right. Know it all people usually knows just that... Enjoy

[latent bay]

It helps when you've grown passionate about this subject and near purely this subject over like the past 14 years lmao

[fallow blaze]

Me too
News about T-Rex and Spino change every second day. So nobody knows.
But anatomy doesn't lie.
The Rex (quote):

• The arms of the Tyrannosaurus rex are unsuitable for a hunter. If he had fallen while running, the small arms would not have been able to catch him and getting back up would have required an enormous amount of strength.
• The teeth of the Tyrannosaurus rex are not blade-shaped like those of predatory dinosaurs, but are rounded. According to Horner, this suggests that the teeth were more suitable for grinding bones and cartilage.
• The brain of the Tyrannosaurus rex was not as developed as that of a predator. The visual center was not optimized for good visual detection of prey; instead, the olfactory center was disproportionately large, as is the case with scavengers.
  The only animal that has a proportionally larger olfactory center is the vulture.
• According to Horner Aas, Tyrannosaurus rex could probably smell at a distance of up to 40 km. Like scavenger does.
• The legs of Tyrannosaurus rex were unsuitable for short sprints when hunting. The relationship between the thigh and lower leg bones is not like that of sprinters. In a sprinter, the lower leg bones are longer than the femurs, but in Tyrannosaurus rex the ratio is reversed. Tyrannosaurus rex's legs were therefore not designed for pursuing or quickly attacking prey, but for long hikes to find carrion, which it could perceive even from a great distance.
  However, pure scavengers are rarely represented in the animal world.

I think it's interesting not to see him as a hunter because of the anatomy.
but I think he was able to live on carrion and hunted slower animals than himself.

[dusky surge]

Horner hates Rex though

His entire study has been proven false, it’s essentially a slander piece on an extinct animal

[fallow blaze]

Dont know that.
But the part with the legs has to be right i think🤔

Have a little knowledge of anatomy. doesn't sound too wrong for me

[dusky surge]

Rex has proven to have

• One of the largest brain cases to body ratio of any animal, making it INSANELY smart.
• Powerful vision comparable to an eagle.
• A set of teeth adapted for crushing armour, which would be vital in taking down prey such as trike
• LITERAL BITE MARKS on trike skeletons, proving it indeed predated upon them
• Unique juvenile and sub adult builds specialised for mobile hunting, which then transitioned into raw power for large prey (like trike)

[stark knoll]

The adults/superadults don't need to sprint when their prey isn't fast

On the flipside, young rexes were incredibly lanky and possibly one of the fastest dinos around (until they grew up)

[olive zinc]

the fact that he has tiny forearms means that the Rex was most likely capable of telekinesis and possibly even mind control

[dusky surge]

Exactly. Adult Rexes specialised in fighting armoured, powerful herbivores, specifically the triceratops, who we have fossil records of it facing off against Rex.

Scavenger Rex is a myth designed to make Rex seem less cool for… some reason. IDK why Horner hates it so much

[fallow blaze]

I said that here, that was my opinion 🙂

• but I think he was able to live on carrion and hunted slower animals than himself.

[latent bay]

1: T. rex straight up doesn't need arms because it has a head the size of a person with a biteforce like a semi-truck. Do wolves all of a sudden not hunt because they don't have hands?

2: never trust Horner in regards to rex, he has gone out of his way to say that he just straight up doesn't like T. rex and holds biases against it. Tyrannosaurus also did have serrations on its teeth suitable for hunting, albeit not as emphasized as a carcharodontosauroid

3:false on all fronts. Tyrannosaurus had excellent sight and even better smell. Its olfactory center is large, yes, but so is a crocodile's, and I dont see crocodiles doing nothing but est half decayed food

4: that's not even a point against hunter rex

5: Tyrannosaurus, even larger individuals, could sprint at up to 22 km/h and potentially faster. That actually makes them faster than the likes of Edmontosaurus and Triceratoos and (obviously) Ankylosaurus

[dusky surge]

BTW, Horner has literally admitted he hates the creature. I seriously do not know why

[latent bay]

This too

[latent bay]

It's because he loves hadrosaurs too much. He was the guy that discovered Maiasaura, so he has biases against anything that could harm it lol

[dusky surge]

Horner has spread a lot of misinformation out of a sheer hatred for a single animal

[latent bay]

how fitting is it that he discovered the good mother lizard and is anything but a good person if ykyk

[fallow blaze]

Yeah that have i read.

[dusky surge]

But yea, all fossil records point to a super hunter, not a scavenger

It is essentially the perfect predator

The only people supporting scavenger Rex also conveniently all seem to very much dislike it

[latent bay]

Oh also to add on a tad bit further, there's an Edmontosaurus (which i think is at the Denver museum) that has a huge chunk taken out of its tail THAT SHOWS SIGNS OF HEALING. The hit was indicative of a Tyrannosaurus bite as well, heavily implying that a Tyrannosaurus attacked a healthy adult Edmontosaurus, and the Edmontosaurus retreated and healed. That is active predation

[dusky surge]

It’s as much a scavenger as a bear walking past a random moose corpse and going “well I was hungry anyways” and eating it

[fallow blaze]

Nah thats not true
that is too generalized

[dusky surge]

Dude it’s literally true. Any paleontologist who actually cares about factual accuracy will tell you rex was a terrifyingly competent hunter

[latent bay]

Mfw there's like 3 different full teams of paleontologists that say "yes, T. rex = predator"

Formorphology team and skeleton crew (the ones on YouTube) come to mind the most

[dusky surge]

Rex is even scarier irl than how movies portray it, it is OBNOXIOUSLY strong. Millenia of evolution lead to what is essentially the perfect animal with Rex

[remote crow]

🤣

[latent bay]

I will find my list of reasons as to why T. rex is grossly strong and turns every other theropod into chalk

[dusky surge]

I don’t even like Rex that much but I cannot deny how absolutely STUPID this animal is in terms of how overpowered it is irl

Like it is gross

[latent bay]

Literally that

[dusky surge]

Each new discovery for Rex only makes it’s true potential even SCARIER lol, thank God that thing is gone

[fallow blaze]

But i dont be a hater
If i say: its interessting 😄
Calm down
I shared my opinion

but I think he was able to live on carrion and hunted slower animals than himself.
= which MEANS he can eat both without dying

[dusky surge]

Every predator eats carrion

Some specialise in it

But none will pass up a meal that’s there

That doesn’t make Rex a scavenger, it makes Rex a carnivore

[latent bay]

My brother in Dondi literally any carnivore ever in the history of ever not only scavenger but also kills

Like literally all of them

[dusky surge]

VULTURES kill things. Not very often, mind you, and basically always tiny little rodents, but they do it

The flagship scavenger animal hunts things

[fallow blaze]

You don't have to tell me that
I know that.
with the exception of insects
and smaller animals
there is no pure scavenger

And i never said that the rex is one

I just shared something from the lying internet.

sorry for that
didn't know

[fallow blaze]

Oh you got me wrong

I tag this post of you with "nah not true, too generalized"
= The only people supporting scavenger Rex also conveniently all seem to very much dislike it

[fallow blaze]

Thx 🤗

[remote crow]

lol... 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

the perfect answer

[fallow blaze]

he corrected😄

[remote crow]

nono I said you give THE PERFECT answer, no need to argue with people who already knows everything.

[stark knoll]

If by "perfect" you mean "factually disproven" then sure

[remote crow]

Yes you are right... ù

[fallow blaze]

Oh I understand.
Well, I didn't want to argue.
That's the problem with writing. Communication is too limited, because you can't hear each other's voice.
In an ongoing written discussion, what you actually want to say is often misinterpreted.
but that's normal.
I'm fine 🙂

[remote crow]

It's ok my friend, in a dialogue with 2 or more people we can listen but we cannot agree, simply respecting the others, but in this case they seems to be the classic know it all, and the all they know is that!!

[stark knoll]

Usually I'd agree, but the discussion is about proven facts...

[remote crow]

ok, I repeat... You are right

[fallow blaze]

The whole mess started because I never dealt with Horner.
so I didn't know.
I apologize for that again.🙂
Two of my quotes were also not read correctly and once an incorrect reference was made to a statement I made.
but as I said in an ongoing discussion that can happen. That is normal.
I just hope that I will be taken seriously in the future.

Thank you for trying to smooth things over.🙂

[remote crow]

I love you all

A T-rex can't stop me loving you all

[stark knoll]

It's not your fault! You found something that looked like a credible source, you couldn't have known any better

[remote crow]

[stark knoll]

It's not bad to be mistaken about something, just means you get to learn something new

[fallow blaze]

thank you, I really appreciate that.
definitely, you never stop learning.

[robust agate]

Do Yall think too, That pachy vomiting is way to slow, like u fight a cera and u are low on food and he bites u. U cant move for like an eternety long enough that the cera can easily kill u in That time. That just feels stupid and unfair to me That u die because u vomited and werent able to move

[distant torrent]

definitely. smaller playables need to have significantly reduced vomitting times. Omni’s vomit is actually pretty fast (iirc), and pachy needs that fast vomit too

[torn egret]

Can we also give troodon some love?
I would love to see a venom buff/rework and maybe a touch more dmg.
If you're solo, even trying to kill something 1v1 is almost impossible unless its a juvi. (I'm usually solo)
Dilo venom is far scarier than troodon will be, and the venom doesnt do much besides stack dmg. If the troodon is going to be a night terror, its venom needs to limit night time view distance (Per stack) and that will be enough to make it viable. It's so squishy, yet is only good in large packs, and requires more skill in general than omni.
Love the mechanics, but I hate not being able to fight anything that spam attacks everywhere.
I'd be ok with making everything in the game attack slower or telegraph attacks more.

What do yall think?

[golden coral]

If you're solo, I don't think you're meant to 1v1 anything bigger than a juvie or hypsi or similar, not sure there's an issue there. Even a dryo is quite large compared to a troodon, though I think killing one of them is doable 1v1. Beipi is also a viable target I believe for a solo troodon.

[torn egret]

Not really, the problem that I run into is that there is no detterent to chasing down a troodon. It has good stam and speed, but its so delicate in combat. A spam biting cera, carno and even pachy that just none stop attacks (combined with server lag, desync etc,) makes it impossble to hunt. Teno are the easiest target for troodons, but everything else attacks way too fast and with no downside.

also, everything has good enough night vision to fight a troodon

[golden coral]

For NV, new one seems to be a lot darker, so troodon should be better off. As for teno, I believe, if we go by that vid showcase, is pretty much what troodon packs hunt, so more or less a full pack of troodons taking down a teno sounds about right. Cera is probably less of a choice, not only due to bite speed but the whole resistance to bleed/damage that doesn't really help, even omnis struggle there after all and they pack more of a punch. Carno is well, carno, the thing meant to not fear small stuff, and pachy is similar (meant to be good vs same lane, unless I'm entirely mistaken). But dryo, galli, beipi should also be choices for solo/smaller groups of troodons. And at night, you're probably not going to see them run much (I can't imagine a galli is going to be out and about at night, and beipi is said to come on land at night to avoid the deinos I think), so you'd have a better chance at getting them at that point, as you should.

What we'd need, is more of those herbis (okay so two are omnivores but still) around!

[torn egret]

But its a catch 22, cause if troodon has to hunt in a pack to do anything, yet requires so much skill in team play, then it's not that viable.
Galli too fast, dryo doesnt exist lol,

[slim dragon]

troodon doesn't need a pack to do anything
It needs a pack to kill things above 20x its size
Which I say is fair

[torn egret]

But its not viable anymore cause EVERYThing that people like to play is far too strong

[golden coral]

Galli isn't too fast when it can't see where it's going :p Not sure on how hard troodon is to play, but it's similar to omni, so aside from the "wait for the right moment" for venom, it does not seem to be any more tricky than omni, which well, that's not a high bar at all. As long as your pack knows to wait for the call, then you're good to go. And well, solo you can take the ones I mentioned, I'm pretty sure at least. Or at the very least you shouldn't require more than one or maybe two more troodons for most of the smalls, which is not much of a pack. Two troodons should be good for taking on beipi/dryo, possibly even a smaller galli/pachy (remember it can't run and alt now, so it can't pressure, unless you somehow get caught by a ram). Three or four troodons and you should be good vs most things, aside from grown carnos/tenos/ceras (or well, cera with body buff, in which case it can probably ignore your entire pack).

[slim dragon]

And buffing troodon only leads to powercreep
Troodon is perfectly viable
It can sustain itself fine on AI, corpses or big animals it can hunt in packs
It can escape all predators

[torn egret]

Don't want buffs to Troodon if everything gets a vision or atk speed nerf rbh

[pure apex]

only thing troodon needs is the jump fix... im tired to die to freaking boars bc those can hit u right after you jump off and it gets very usually bugged

[slim dragon]

Vision nerf makes night more annoying to play in and forces people to disconnect
Attack speed nerf changes EVERY SINGLE match-up in the game and also makes all fights slower and more clunky

[golden coral]

I don't think vision is needed with new NV honestly, not from what I've seen. As for attack speed, I think most attack speeds are fine, if you make them too slow then you won't be able to catch a troodon even if you time it well? On top of that, slower attack speed might be a thing (or so I've heard) for out of stam attacking, in which case, bait your target until it's exhausted, and then go for the kill.

[torn egret]

But everything can't be expected to play well at night, so "It forces people to disconnect" when the troodon can't hide in the day because of some dinos haveing a ridiculous camera angle.
And most fights are just, I do more dmg per minute, so let me stun/facetank if I'm bigger.
So, a well timed attack will hit, but the problem is that you can span UNTIL you hit. I hate when people say the fights will be clunky if I can't attack as fast, only because it doesn't apply as well to smaller dinos. A cera can put out more bites in a min than a troodon can, and stegos can hit you even after you've pounced. Giving the troodon more combat effectiveness does not mean a power creep, because its a glass cannon already.
And to talk about baiting attacks, all one has to do when fighting troodons, is sit still and look down so you can see them. then alt bite when they are coming.
@golden coral Ididn't mean the attack itself was slower, but the times you can bite per minute should decrease. If that makes sense

[slim dragon]

Then that's a problem with troodon's camera angle, and bites not costing stamina. Not troodon's strength or squishiness.

[golden coral]

"forces people to disconnect"? Well no, most things are probably not going to be good at night, that's intended, so dilo and troodon can hunt at night? Well, cera has other issues than just biting fast, though it biting fast is part of its kit. And stego should not even be relevant for troodon, so that one I won't consider. If anything, troodon should not affect anything over 3T or something in the first place. Troodon is combat effective, you said it yourself, it can hunt down tenos, that's quite impressive as it stands, considering how huge teno really is.

So noted, but I'm not sure that'd be good either, and it would make things feel clunky if the anim is done but you can't attack for some reason. Personally I'm not a fan of cooldowns, teno used to have on it's attacks way back when and it was very frustrating to say the least. Troodon being a glass cannon would matter, if it was risky to pounce, but it's not. So maybe the issue is more so that giving troodon, or omni, better and safer pouncing and all, is only a viable option if they otherwise risk things. Troodon is tiny, hard to see, harder to hit, so if you slow attacks, or vision even more, how do you defend against it? I feel like it'll only be even more of the "stand in water/mud" or "wedge into corner of rocks" to defend, and I'm not sure that's fun or engaging gameplay.

[torn egret]

The issue is that they are too easy to hit, too easy to see. If the camera allows for other dinos to see them AND make it easy to land a hit, that's a combined issue

[torn egret]

Few people play troodon because of the issues with pounces, getting alt bit almost immediately, if the nv gets reworked on gateway then im not too worried

But it doesnt change the fact that the troodon is always at a disadvantage in it's current state.

also, its so hard to track now, and I've l;ost midsized prey to bad tracking

[golden coral]

From what I know, the biggest issue is that somehow you can hit a latched troodon/omni with alt, which is obviously an issue. But if that gets fixed, I don't think there's much else that's really bad about either of the playables. If the "getting hit while latched" is no longer a thing, I honestly think both troodon and omni will be bordering on OP, due to how pounce otherwise currently work. Especially omni, but troodon too quite possibly.

Tracking and all that might just be an issue with troodon camera? I've seen a lot of people say the camera is bad and it's hard to see anything as troodon and so on.

[torn egret]

Im sorry, but it's already risky enough just to pounce, the point is once im latched, you have to buck me off or run to a bush or I hop myself.
Pounce is broken (Mechanically), can't change my mind on that.
Troodon cam is fine, but tracking is so bad anyways

[golden coral]

Pounce is broken, we can agree on that, but not for the same reason. There is little to no risk to pounce aside from the bug of being hit while latched. Otherwise you can face pounce, tail pounce, literally land on something running away from you. You can dismount pretty much safely from everything as well, including stegos (or so people say, if you aim the dismount correctly. But really, stego should be unsafe as can be, it should be the worst target ever really for pouncers). Bucking only makes you get off, it doesn't actually kill you or otherwise remove you from the engagement, which means there's no kill confirm.

Yes, you can hit something while it's in the air mounting/dismounting (though unless you hit it hard enough to kill or almost kill, the player probably won't back off anyway), if you time it correctly, which is really the only time an omni or troodon is vunerable. And unless pounce at some point only works on the flanks, as it should, there's little to no difficulty in landing it in the first place.

Can't say much for tracking in general, it's always worked just fine when I've used it, no matter the carni, so not sure what the problem is there. If anything, the biggest issue with tracking is that quads have no way to "sneak" and thus always leaves a perfectly fine trail to follow.

[torn egret]

Can't tail pounce, doesnt latch because you have to be by the body for pounce to land. If you head pounce thats insta death.
If you don't play troodon, you won't know how frustrating it is to have something spam alt hits on you.
Stego too big for a ftroodon? That's kinda dumb, because if you want to think of it this way, a small pouncer like a troodon should not be able to get hit by its tail.

tracking never works, cause I see the blood spots, but tracks never show

[golden coral]

You very much can pounce directly from the rear, at least troodon can. So yes, you can pounce from the tail, just like you can pounce from the face. Head pouncing is not death at all, at the least not for omni. I don't know what's wrong with your tracking then, mine works, all I can say there really. You might want to ask in troubleshooting if you for some reason do not get tracks at all. And yes, stego is absolutely too big for troodon, it's 6T, troodon is 60 KG. There is no way troodons should ever go after anything bigger than 3T or something, and even that is being extremely generous. Even omnis shouldn't really go after big things like apexes, but then we have OC omni, so I'm sure it will. Sure, technically a trike or rex wouldn't be able to hit a troodon, but there's also no reasonable way a troodon would ever hurt something that big.

[torn egret]

No you can't pouncce from tail side.
Can't just say, well yeah you can lol. Head pounce will likely get you bit, and 1 hit on troodon is death.
Dont compare troodon to omni, the playstyle is different and the dmg, bleed are differently kitted.
Limiting troodons by saying, "Can't go after big things) when its venom literally enables them to do so.

[golden coral]

I can assure you, you can pounce as troodon from directly behind, on a running target, that is running away from you at that. I had it happen to me, repeatedly. Sure, a troodon will die if the target manages to bite as it's pouncing, which again ,takes timing. So that's fine. The fact that pounce can work from the face however, is not, it should require aiming at the flanks, so there's at least some skill involved. And I only compare them in what can be compared, pounce and agility and so on.

Venom does, yes. Going after big things, is not the same as going after huge things. Teno is massive compared to troodons. 3T, which is larger than carno, and closer to allo size, is plenty for troodon. Saying they shouldn't be able to go after bigger things is by no means limiting, they have plenty of prey anyway. So no, troodons should not be going after anything too large, and definitely not apex sized critters. But to be fair, it's stego being bad, if it had better attacks and mobility and all, it shouldn't be an issue. But the anti-flank defender should by no means be weak to the flankers, especially not ones literally pouncing the flank.

[torn egret]

If you pounce on tail side it doesnt latch because you can only latch onto the body. Sure if it's small enough you can hit from behind, but thats not the case for anything mid sized.
Im ok with being hit While pouncing, but everything can just span attacks until it hits, that's the issue.
The problem I have in this game comes from power scaling. I'd be ok if I could pounce after a bite is made, but the window for damage on ALL dino attacks is ridiculous.
Sure I can live on ai as a troodon, which is great, but players just sit in bushes and spam, or alt bite everywhere because there is no windup, and no cooldown that matters.

[torn egret]

And imma be honest, dismounts are also hard to deal with.
Alot of the stuff I talk about is because of my own personal grievances.
Just got killed to a teno while I was on its side lmao. Life is hard for tiny troo

[west sequoia]

@rugged vessel The Rex is already going to dominate the island it doesn’t need a dodge

[rugged vessel]

That depends If Trike just gore Rex while face tank Rex. In legacy Rex won this but don’t know If this is in Evrima too

[slim dragon]

Hopefully rex won't win the facetank
But that doesn't mean it needs a dodge either
Rex is gonna have other abilities besides bite, like a headbutt and possibly a pin,it's gonna need to use them and outskill the trike

[dusky surge]

i legit hope that rexes that assume "i will win for i am the mighty rex" get gored like instantly and die

i love the idea of trike basically being unapproachable to rex from a front-facing position, necessitating ambush or some clever movement

[robust agate]

What are Yall opinions on the New stam system on gateway cause i think its awful. If u See how Long it Takes to regen it, it just Makes the Game less fun. And its gonna be a pain for every Dino That relies on stam to get it back after u used it in a fight like u are just dead

[robust agate]

especially that Alt Attack costs stam now too makes it worse. Its not a bad idea so u dont altfacetank anymore but if a teno runs out of stam fighting a cera wich can be very quick, then he is dead, he can just bite

[slim dragon]

@sharp glen Why did you mention sarco multiple times in your feedback ? It's not coming to the game

[fallow wagon]

any arguments as to why getting cucked for a half hour by nutrient that is providing 0 buff to you is desired

[sharp glen]

ah sorry didnt know dont really follow isle news just thought about it this morning then typed that

[fallow wagon]

if you're struggling to fill it up because you can't find enough food, then you're not getting kills you need as a predator. any decent corpse will fill up your nutrients without issue. if you somehow dont fill up a nutrient, then any food you come across that may be another nutrient is going to waste coz you cant frickin use it. so let it drain away faster /shrug

[slim dragon]

You might have mistaken the Isle's planned roster with Path of Titans (which iirc already has sarcosuchus)

[sharp glen]

No I dont follow that game at all after I heard they implemented multi platform play.

[slim dragon]

Ok
Well back to your suggestion, I believe droughts are already planned

[sharp glen]

Awesome cant wait :).

[tall bronze]

I'd say the main issue is it making filling a slot somewhat more tedious since should you happen to not fill that slot, by the time you can, it'll likely have drained already. It happens, even when you're doing your best as any species 😅 Especially with how weird nutrient gain vs food gain can be lately. I do like the idea of being able to get rid of non-active slots easier, but this method doesn't seem to be the best <:I

One idea I had proposed once that may help though is being able to click on a non-active nutrient slot, and the next time you eat a different nutrient, it replaces the non-active nutrient with a new one. That way if you go to eat something but don't reach 100% of a nutrient, you don't have to worry about that slot essentially being locked off. C:

[fierce creek]

How does one get a full stomach and no hexagons😭

[modest patrol]

hex bug

-_-

[cosmic pelican]

On a deino too
You actually have to try to not get diet as a deino, your starter hexagon lasts 90 minutes

(Not to mention the abundant fish ai)

[modest patrol]

Still ignoring the point being

[cosmic pelican]

And what is the point?

[modest patrol]

Re read

[cosmic pelican]

There is no such thing as "hex bug" it fills from up to bottom, in order

[modest patrol]

Listen, Look...

I'm not here to argue with you, I cannot be bothered. I don't care if you disagree or if the whole server does. My point is that we need a way to regurchatate/bile up or have increase digestion when you have a poor diet and another reason being is that it's far too punishing for a casual player to have a 75% decrease to growth when it isn't possible to get a 50% growth rate with a perfect diet that i know of let alone a 75% increase to growth rate. Imo I think it's BS and does the game no justice and doesn't justify one with little time to play the game in it's current state. Sorry for my ramble/rant. I may be only be speaking for myself but that's my two cents.

[shadow vortex]

#balance-feedback message what would y’all change in the reworked carno?

[modest patrol]

for reference

[dusky surge]

reduce charge damage, reduce charge stamdrain for one

[shadow vortex]

But the current acceleration seems fine to you? What your thoughts on the hunt strategy I mentioned in my linked comment?

[dusky surge]

the accel might be a lil too fast, yea

[shadow vortex]

Like, with this new acceleration tenos and ceras won’t even land a bite on carno, since they will immediately get knocked down and then just will have to run after 55,6 sprinting thing with their 40 km speed on average lol

[cosmic pelican]

I can understand the frustration, we've all been there. But carnivore life (especially deino) is already super easy as is, giving them even more of an advantage and ease of life over herbivores, who are already inferior in basically every single way would be the last nail in their coffin. Also we already have a "stomach cleanse" in a way, puking makes your food drop to 25% and basically removes every diet you previously had, only drawback is that you cant gain nutrients for 5 minutes after puking, but this effect can be removed with salt.

[keen plover]

https://www.youtube.com/live/SllaoFuLa0U?feature=shared&t=7201 this is insane lmaooooooooo

time stamped

[dusky surge]

lmaoooo

screwed for trying it

it'd be awesome if it wasn't also still a nuke

i'd be fine if it did 200 damage and didnt knockdown ceras

but the combo of both made that entire fight an easy swing

[keen plover]

Genuinely a hilarious change

Like literally just trot to a teno and then ram. What does it do???

[dusky surge]

With the cooldown, you could change it to where it charges up over time while running, basically, you need 3 seconds of runtime and then it activates.

rather than a solid 20 second cooldown

means you can keep a powerful accel

so like, have the little cooldown bar on the bottom left charge up from running, rather than be a hard 20 second cooldown

[shadow vortex]

Ye but how then can you distinguish at what moment you can press RMB and it will work if the acceleration isn’t dynamic

Looking at the interface for it sounds clunky

[slim dragon]

You're already looking at the interface to know if you have charges left

[shadow vortex]

Yep but I at least will look at it every 20 seconds, not every time I press shift

[slim dragon]

I mean, if the 3 second delay is consistent, you'll quickly learn to guess is

[shadow vortex]

I anyway don’t like the reworked carno at all, would’ve kept him as in the 6.5 update (prob only a bit speeded the accel and lowered damage to 265 from 300, but that’s it), but eh who am I

[shadow vortex]

Mweh :(

[slim dragon]

That's what every Street Fighter player who plays characters with charged attacks does

[shadow vortex]

LolI, but I wanna play as a dino in survival game, not as a human in fighter simulator where combos are must-have xdd

Key combos, I mean

[slim dragon]

Having a 3-second timer for an ability doesn't turn it into a fighting game either

[shadow vortex]

True, but still I’d prefer to have not an UI indicator, but the changes in dinosaur movement itself, as it is with the 6.5 carno

[dusky surge]

you look at the HUD

you can also add a sound indicater where the carno makes a noise

it already has a lil grunt for when it starts its charge

[shadow vortex]

Sound indicator would be nice

[dusky surge]

i made feedback addressing it

[random stump]

@tired frigate stegos minimum estimated weight is the same as deinos maximum
there is NO world in which deino could grab stego irl

[dusky surge]

someone goddamn superreacted no lol

[slim dragon]

It's the same guy who NEEDS to know their exact health percentage and thinks it's immersive to have chunks of meat taken from bodies have different nutritional values than chunks of meat you eat directly from the body

[dusky surge]

ah

[tired frigate]

alr then atleast make it abel to be grabed by 2 deinos

[frail bobcat]

no

[dusky surge]

no

[shadow vortex]

Not me just in case, but tbh one thing that concerns me about ur suggestion is that carno now will have to take longer distances from the target to land a ram, because there is a difference where your running speed increases gradually for first 6 meters at 20-50 km/h, and where you instantly start to run at 56 km/h

[dusky surge]

thats... the idea

[shadow vortex]

Really?

[dusky surge]

also the new buffs means it has instant accel

watch the video, it instantly goes to 55.5km/hr in like a second

[shadow vortex]

Better be slower but alr

I know and I don't like it

How about the slower accel and 2,5 seconds windup combination?

Still not a nuke, still adequate

[dusky surge]

isnt that just worse for carno in both aspects

also i've given up on carno not being a nuke

[distant torrent]

if carno’s ram didn’t do absurd damage to mid tiers and knock them down then it wouldn’t be as much as an issue as it is now

[shadow vortex]

All about the numbers, I don't talk about hours to reach max speed as it is now

1,5 second acceleration and there ya go

[dusky surge]

that just makes carno worse

[shadow vortex]

Also there will be no problems with animations cuz now carno just seems to slide first 0,5 meters without moving its feet

[dusky surge]

the whole point of the accel is to make it that it can keep pursuit with small tiers

[shadow vortex]

And it will, galli didn't get a buff to its acceleration, no?

[distant torrent]

(now it dominates mid tiers even better)

[random stump]

deinosuchus would not grab a stegosaurus IRL unless it caught it swimming in deep water, and even then thats not as much of a grab as it is a pull downwards

[slim dragon]

irl doesn't even matter here

[frail bobcat]

https://tenor.com/view/dont-you-dare-dont-dont-do-it-the-office-michael-scott-gif-14178027

[random stump]

nvm they wouldnt have even interacted

they were 50 million years apart

[shadow vortex]

Even with the windup for 3 secs, it won't help carno utilize its ability on small tiers either, because now everyone will know when carno will be able to ram, and also its turnrate still quite poor, so utahs or other nimble small-tiers will just dodge that

[random stump]

deino is about as far from stego as we are from trex which is really funny

[slim dragon]

That's why I think carno shouldn't have a ram as its special ability

[shadow vortex]

And simply biting target at that speed with all present desync is just impossible

[shadow vortex]

Then what ability it should be? Ram is the most logic thing for carno imo

[distant torrent]

I fully support the removal of ram with how it’s been treated

[random stump]

if carno is going to be a giant sausage cheetah then it should be able to turn on a dime.

[slim dragon]

Turning headbutt that allows it to keep its momentum, so it can be used to catch skittish prey with good enough timing
Also closer to how it would have used its horns irl

[random stump]

anyways
a headbutt with the giant horns would probably be better

not a forward headbutt like a swing to the side but ykwim

[slim dragon]

Or add it as an alt-RMB so it has one more option instead of being a one-trick pony

[shadow vortex]

Didn't get u well, sorry. U mean some ability that will allow you to quickly turn to sides and deal some dmg?

[slim dragon]

You know omni's old alt-bite that it could do while sprinting ?
Well, same thing but it's a headbutt

[shadow vortex]

Ah

[random stump]

would be really cool to see happen to a human on a motorcycle

imagine you're in a convoy of like 3 dudes and this giant meat train comes out of the bushes and impales someone off a bike before running off again

[shadow vortex]

Btw stress-servers were closed an hour ago as I know, so prob it's technical issues or we are getting public stress test this week. Who knows

Well before that gonna adore ma current carno

Also the turnrate isn't that poor actually, it's decent if one knows how to cancel driftt 🧑‍🦽

[cosmic pelican]

Oh wow, thats impressive. Never seen anyone do that before, props to you, you must be a good carno

[fallen vale]

#balance-feedback message @dusky surge LOL is all I have to say. This is doubling down on the carno being busted and entirely focused around charge and scaling up in power with numbers faster than other species

That's gonna be really fun when you get 3-4 of those starting charges from what ever direction with zero anticipation needed or build up required

[dawn falcon]

Huh, wtf.

I’ve never seen this before

[tall bronze]

Galli can already deal with raptors super easily. Just run 😛 If you're getting pounced/killed by them, you're not playing Galli right

[dusky surge]

i mean... galli is just also severely underweight

i dont agree with his reasons for buffing the weight, but the weight should be buffed

[tall bronze]

What are your reasons for it

[dusky surge]

it used to be 510kg and fine, then it got nerfed in weight for zero reason

[tall bronze]

But like what would it actually gain from more weight if it's also fine now

[dusky surge]

the fact it is significantly larger than both pachy and omni, yet somehow lighter than both isn't a thing i have to constantly acknowledge

[sterile iris]

If they are not going to make regen stamina when trotting again, could they at least make walking faster? In many dinos it feels as if they were walking in slow-motion

[thin mantle]

Trots are just globally terrible

That’s the main issue

[sterile iris]

Love the idea of herbis having a wider view field when eating/drinking. They have eyes on the sides rather than the front exactly for the reason to be more aware of danger

[cobalt dagger]

@glacial terrace
If we do give water for eating animals, should we let herbis get water from plants too? Water is indeed a deathtrap, but it would be unfair between herbivore and carnivore if herbivores had to go to water more (teno already has horrible thirst timer...) and things are already badly balanced between them. After all, herbivores have no plant-version of organs, so you have to force vomit and nit-pick your nutrients a lot more, which is annoying already.

[shadow vortex]

That’s why I defend the current 6.5 carno, I know some tricks which make him decent, not overpowered, not too weak. Personally, I would even nerf him in some aspect, damage-wise. But 1,5 hour grow and 1800 kg creature shouldn’t be played too easily and with no effort, as it is now in the Stress-Test

[quasi sandal]

I soloed a few raptors as galli, running around kicking them while dodging all the pounces is kinda easy tbh
A galli can tank a pounce, run away and regen in a safe place

[olive zinc]

I think water being a potential death trap is the way it's supposed to be. You should be scared of crossing rivers and drinking, and finding a safe(r) spot to do so is important. At least Deinos are not as overpopulated since they added more playables, and I imagine with Gateway and more playables being added in the future it won't be as bad as it was before 6.5 when it seemed there was a croc in every square meter of every river.

[tropic horizon]

What the actual hell is that

[dusky surge]

clearly a balanced combat mechanic

[tropic horizon]

Indeed

[dusky surge]

surely people will enjoy the 350 damage knockdown attack from a standing position haha

[tropic horizon]

What could possibly go wrong with that

[dusky surge]

it has a 20 second cooldown tho so you only get screwed over once every 20 seconds

[tropic horizon]

So the carno only gets to completely invalidate you 3 times per minute that’s cool!

Please for the love of god give it acceleration back, not the current one but at least SOME acceleration so you aren’t instantaneously screwed over by a mechanic that has almost no counter play when used properly

[shadow vortex]

Yaaaas yas yas yas

[distant torrent]

what’s funny is people are still calling the godly accel carno bad and want it buffed more

[tropic horizon]

Some people ig just want carno to be able to face tank everything and eviscerate any and all competition in its path

[distant torrent]

that and the fact most of the player base isn’t exactly.. skilled

a lot of the stress tester player base from what I’ve seen are even less… skilled than the average every day official server player lmao

I’m not trying to be mean and I’m not saying I’m any better, but I can’t watch a lot of stress test videos because the combat just hurts to watch

not all of them are like that but it’s what a lot seem to be from what I’ve watched

you got people ramming away from ceras, just evaporating all of their stamina

like what lmao

[tropic horizon]

It’s a bit annoying to see people like that complaining about things that aren’t exactly an issue such as carno having acceleration and then because there are so many of those people complaining, changes will occur based on that rather than experienced players giving their views and perspectives

[tropic horizon]

What I mean by the acceleration is the accel it has in the current build not the stress test btw

[distant torrent]

carno really did need better acceleration to fulfill its small game hunter role, but a big problem is them buffing the accel and keeping the current ram, which just makes it a huge problem for less nimble playables like teno and cera. heck, probably even dibble too when it comes if things go with the current trend

[keen plover]

Won’t forget when cera was in st. Was a solo Carno and I kept ramming a 4 man cera pack. They kept staying in one place and I kept chipping away at their health

[dusky surge]

pretty sure that clip inspired the "buff cera" train

[distant torrent]

just thinking about that physically hurts so much, especially since cera had the vomitlock that didn’t have a cooldown

[shadow vortex]

bruv

[tall bronze]

About that Cerato suggestion, while I agree that Cerato is a bit too good at stuff it should be mediocre at (particularly endurance and offensiveness), it's also meant to be very, very annoying to deal with, especially if it's near a body. Omniraptor just isn't something built for dealing with Cerato, who's basically built to be anti-Omni.

So Omni having a horrible time with it is to be expected 😅

[cosmic pelican]

(Cera is also the only bad matchup omni has, and its still very much killable with 4 adults)

[halcyon elk]

Much more so later, since you'd need like 3 to pin it (when that gets implemented

[cosmic pelican]

Im definetly not looking forward to that
Making a player unable to defend itself because a few omnis held rmb on it, so skillful

[tall bronze]

From what's been both said (previously when this was talked about) and shown today, you have to weaken the prey first. It's not an automatic "haha we win". Tap pouncing was also said to be resolved already, so there's that as well.

What was shown today by Don was also said to be a prototype meant to demonstrate the pin, normally you'd need more than 1 to do it.

[cosmic pelican]

That does seem a bit better then, but it still feels so unnecessary considering omnis power, and the new stamina changes buffing packs.

[slim dragon]

Some of the complains in that post are weird
"Insane health pool" ?
"Insane bleed damage" ?
"Insane acceleration and turn rate" ?
It's the first time I see someone complain about those

[golden coral]

The bleed damage could be from after a vomit, at that point ceras bleed can be quite lethal.

[shadow vortex]

Wait, today Dondi streamed that new pin mechanic for Utahs they talked about a while ago?

[tall bronze]

He posted a clip of a demonstration of a prototype of it earlier today in general discussion

[shadow vortex]

Ah, have to check that. Thank you

[dusky surge]

@elfin axle stam regen ramps up the longer you sit. You'll get really fast regen if you sit for long enough

its not instant stam

[elfin axle]

I see, though it didnt feel that. ty for the info

[river nebula]

@dusky surge why already downvote 💀

[dusky surge]

because i disagree

[river nebula]

literally the milisecond i posted my suggestion

youre downvoting anything regarding stam regen being reverted it seems

[dusky surge]

yea

herbivore stuff i kinda like but i dont like upvoting a good idea when its mixed in with something that i massively disagree with

[river nebula]

Have even played with the new stamina

[dusky surge]

yea

i like having more of it

[river nebula]

How can anyone reasonably enjoy this

Oh boy more afk gameplay for stamina !

[dusky surge]

i like the more careful approach to stam management rather than
run, rest, run, rest

[river nebula]

Id almost agree with the more careful gameplay apporach if trotting stam regen was removed entirely but the actual regen was left untouched when sitting or walking, bc walking to regen stam rn is genuinely worthless atp just sit down 💀

Makes the game feel more like a slog then being an immersive experience

[keen plover]

:)

[dusky surge]

stam diet? yea i heard lol

[keen plover]

yeah

[dusky surge]

hopefully they'll replace it with something better, although im glad to know its been heard

still havent managed to even touch AU lol

[keen plover]

I'm playing on SA haha

[dusky surge]

its like i always say

more au please

[keen plover]

I didn't think it was possible to make Carno any easier than update 6 but we've got it now

Unironically untouchable 1 v 1 in its size range it seems.

[dusky surge]

i still dont understand any balancing ideas behind this animal

there is one big-ass glaring part about it

[keen plover]

I was toying with a cera just a bit ago

[dusky surge]

like, the most obvious element

[keen plover]

I wonder lol

[dusky surge]

and they just never address it

the amount of times they have balanced AROUND carno's charge damage rather than just... balancing carno's charge damage is bizarre

like if you keep needing to nerf charge after nerfing charge after nerfing charge and charge is still too strong

maybe you need to try other things

[keen plover]

exactly

Well after this update, I expect even more changes lol

[dusky surge]

please just nerf the goddamn damage for the love of god

all these changes are beyond bizarre and just make carno more clunky and weird

its giving an alberto-style attack to carnotaurus, then wondering why carnotaurus is so good, so you make it that its really costly to use the alberto-style attack, but its still a carno with an alberto-style attack

the issue is the attack is too good for the animal that its on

you dont need to move faster than everything else and also do more damage than everything else

[alpine plover]

True

[frigid wraith]

Worst thing so far is the stam tbh

everything else is fine apart from big cerato groups

[tardy trench]

So true!

[halcyon elk]

@terse kettle i suggest maybe when going across the map, use the trot, and only sprint when necessary. If you do wish to sprint do so sparingly to conserve stamina.

@elfin axle stam is exponential, meaning the longer the sit the more it regens.

Also carno from what I've heard is still rather effective,

[latent bay]

@halcyon elk many playables, from what I've gathered, dont have the hunger to just trot around the map, pretty much requiring you sprint to get from point A to B

[halcyon elk]

Hm. That could be an issue, then perhaps increase trot speed? That'd work well.

[golden coral]

Yeah, I think there's far more options than just "revert stamina". Trot/walk speeds, hunger/water times, and so on.

[halcyon elk]

The Stam changes can stay, they just need a bit of tweaking in the sense of other features to make running without wasting stamina every 5 seconds.

[dusky surge]

punch has confirmed trot speeds will be getting buffed

[slim dragon]

it's about time

[halcyon elk]

https://tenor.com/view/high-five-walter-white-jesse-pinkman-breaking-bad-4k-gif-21661584

[golden coral]

If trots were good, travel would feel fine without running. Same with walks. If hunger and water was a bit longer, you'd feel less need to "get there" immediately as well.

[halcyon elk]

WHEN. WHEN THEYRE GOOD.

[latent bay]

Truly the good ending, the perfect reality

[latent bay]

Either that or decrease food and water drainage, or both

[toxic veldt]

the trot is good, walking is not.

[halcyon elk]

Well we already have answers about trotting being buffed.

[golden coral]

If. Because I'll wait and see what we get.

[golden coral]

Most trots aren't that good to be honest. Teno is, troodon is, the others, less so.

[latent bay]

Ofc ofc I was just throwing out a potential solution B that could also be combined with solution A

[toxic veldt]

the actual trot should become the walk. but good thing to read the trot will be adjusted.

[halcyon elk]

True, though imo another way is to have plants that are on no animals diet (bar maybe the ultra generalists) that aren't bound to the migration map and have them scattered across the map.

[latent bay]

Ruminant stegosaurids when

[halcyon elk]

I more meant like ferns and stuff, eat from ferns to fill up but you get no diet (again maybe excluding the ultra generalist like taco, or maybe dryo.

[latent bay]

Fair enough

I would like to see a large "ultra generalist", but I'm stumped as to who could fit the role. Maybe Pachyrhinosaurus or Styracosaurus?

[halcyon elk]

I really don't think we should have any, mostly due to the fact that it'd be very strong

[latent bay]

I dont see how a large generalist could be classed as "very strong" when the gods of all 9 year olds (apex trio), Triceratops, God's true vessels (sauropods), and the only thing I can reliably joke about being made of literal tungsten (Shantungosaurus) exist

And Kratos in therizinosaurid form (Therizinosaurus)

And ed the fatass (acro)

[halcyon elk]

You also forgot anky.

Aka the living m1a2 abrams

[latent bay]

Fair enough

My point still stands though, how can a large (not apex, large. Like higher end of mid tier size range, maybe low psuedo apex) tier generalist be classed as "very strong" when those monsters exist

Like even interacting with rex as anything smaller than acro will likely be insta doom (a sad thought for me, but a true one)

[halcyon elk]

In the sense they can live anywhere and just plop themselves down.

With small generalists it works because they are very focused on hiding, survival, and running from threats. While larger animals can hold their ground much more efficiently.

[latent bay]

I dont see how that makes them particularly powerful, unless, of course, the animals in an area aren't equipped to take on the generalistic invader, which shouldn't be the case

This generalistic invader should be pressed in nearly every environment, preferably by primarily Suchomimus in the swamp, Allosaurus in... wherever the hell that thing's supposed to be, and any of the 3 carcharodontosaurs over longer distance areas like plains and prairies

[halcyon elk]

Fair, I wouldn't mind if pachyrhino was a generalist. It kinda makes sense for it. But it would be quite strong.

[latent bay]

I have my doubts with Pachyrhinosaurus, despite me being the one to suggest it earlier for this role. Pachyrhinosaurus could very well dominate Suchomimus in a straight brawl, and Allosaurus might as well not have a chance. Only thing pressing that brute would probably be pairs of Albertosaurus and Suchomimus, the latter (preferably) being pretty rare

[hallow sonnet]

me when no dryo burrow

[stark knoll]

Dryo's still planned to get burrows

[hallow sonnet]

yeh ik

just kinda sad to see all the other dinos get there specials or even get added before the litterally first dino gets its abylity (im ignoring dodge cause its a glorifyed a and d key) tho thats not to say dodge isnt useful i have had dodge save my hide several times

[latent bay]

Well that's straight up wrong

The first dinosaurs added to the isle were Tyrannosaurus, Puertasaurus, Gallimimus and Shantungosaurus (think Beaver's extremely old "shooting red squares at dinosaurs" video)

The Isle's evrima branch had Utahraptor and Tenontosaurus made for it first

[halcyon elk]

Said Gallimimus had feathers btw

[stark knoll]

It's primarily due to the fact that burrowing is planned to be waaaaay more complex and customizable than it ever was in legacy, and the devs likely feel they don't have the time to make such a large system when other areas of the game still need to be worked out. Plus, Filipe has said to be working on prototypes in a dev blog or two, so it's certainly not been forgotten

[frail bobcat]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/855527844670865438/1103711948803158067/EzhEst.gif

[dawn falcon]

This community seems to be allergic to buffing the stamina regen, and decide that reverting the changes is the best case scenario

[brave obsidian]

I don't mind the stam changes. Starting off as a herbivore is rough, because you can only eat in your migration spots and usually once you get there that spots been populated for a bit and will likely run into carnivores. I've been spawn killed there, a few times, even when they had my body to eat, because people are greedy. It doesn't feel good. It's possible that it'll get better but for right now, it's rough.

[cobalt dagger]

I've been feeling that too.

It's frustrating when they already have you to eat.

There are carnivores in nature that kill more than needed, like weasels and foxes, but a lot of reptiles and fish only hunt when hungry and don't over-kill.

I work at a big aquarium, we keep sharks, and guests always ask me, 'why don't they eat those fish?' Because we keep them well fed, and they don't want to waste calories hunting when they don't need to.

In real life, ecosystems with over-powered carnivores can exist when those over-powered carnivores cannibalize each other, are territorial, and also don't kill more than they need to eat, allowing their herbivore food species to reproduce enough to keep them going. What's good for their food is good for them, and what's good for their food is to not be killed off into extinction.

[dawn falcon]

thats true

Either they: A. Add 1 or 2 more migration points you can go to. or B. Let food spawn sparingly outside the migration route.

[cobalt dagger]

I am okay with carnivores knowing where herbivores are, I think herbivores need better ways of defending themselves though.

I don't want it to be where the herbivores are able to hunt the carnivores

But they need to be able to eat, like, I mentioned in the general discussion area-

I was playing Galli, and I came to the migration zone to eat, very few food sources are left, and a raptor is camping it

And I can run away from the raptor sure

But as soon as I enter the eating animation, necessary to eating, he'll pounce me.

I can run, but I can't eat.

At least I can eat grass as an herbi so there's that but I can't have nutrients.

Thing is, if we make it so herbis can avoid carnivores, and hide, that makes life as herbi boring

You're less likely to see other herbis or carnivores or players as all, you just wander around and eat and drink.

Player interaction is important to the fun of the game.

Rather than make it so the herbis can avoid player interaction, we should make it so that they can interact on a more fair level.

Though I think the choice to avoid player interaction should exist for those who desire it

So, I would still like to see 'sparse' food outside of the migration zones

Even if we make it so herbis can fight though, I am not sure what we will do about differences in population number.

Like, even if you're really skilled, sometimes you can just get outnumbered, and there's usually more carnivores than herbivores playing in the isle

Or, say, you fight the guy camping your food, and just as you start to eat your hard-earned oranges, some other guys shows up, fresh and ready to fight, and you're injured from the last fight.

Now, if you had the choice to run away, this would be fine. Galli felt entirely balanced in Spiro, to me, because it could always run away. It never had to fight to survive, and it's slower acceleration meant you could attempt an ambush on it and maybe succeed if you pulled it off right.

And, I feel like, if something is fast, that something can choose it's battles. That's why I am okay with Cera's high bleed resist, because otherwise it would stand little chance against raptors. Good news is, raptors can run away from ceras, they don't HAVE to pick that fight.

Not everything is as balanced as this, in fact most match ups in the isle seem to sadly not be set up this way. There are plenty of things that are faster AND stronger than whatever their fighting. It means that, unless you play that faster-stronger animal, you will just, die, as soon as you're seen.

It means less people want to play that creature.

And so cera-raptor-deino with the rare carno is most of what spiro's players are.

And most of the herbis are stegos.
Because those are the animals with some level of control over their fate.

Ptera and galli kinda have control over their fate's too but they are BORING, that's the other issue.

When you can't fight and all you do is run away all day and hide all day it gets BORING.

I guess that's why galli's have a reputation for being mean, the only one's playing it are ones with ideas about how to get kills with it.

[distant torrent]

teno and carno matchup in a nutshell

[cobalt dagger]

Yes. Exactly.

I hate that it's like that.

The other thing about picking your fights-

Lets say I have 2 creatures, creature A and creature B, forget their diet for a bit.

Let's say the two creatures are equal in power and skill required to play them.

But creature A runs faster.

This means, if Creature B has numbers on their side, 3 to 1, the A creature will run away and not die. It can pick the fight and it knows that fight isn't good for it.

So also, if the player playing Creature B in the match up is more skilled in a 1 v 1, creature A can run away to live another day and deny Creature B any kills, even if it had the skills.

Now if Creature A is in a pack that outnumbers creature B, say 3 to 1, Creature B cannot outrun them, so it will simply die, simply because it was out-numbered.

And if Creature B faces a very skilled Creature A in a 1 v 1, it cannot flee and creature A will secure the kill.

Speed and picking your fights has huge impacts when it comes down to a game of numbers, of who has the most friends on their side.

Even if you make two animals even in power, Creature A is gonna be killing waaaaaaay more creature B than the other way around - Because every time A is winning it'll make sure it secures the kill, but any time creature B is winning, A will just skitter away.

This is not considering things like 'this creature can submerge in water' or 'this creature can fly' or 'this creature can climb trees,' there are more things that complicates this, but seeing as none of this applies to say, teno v carno, Teno is the creature B - Except carno is actually stronger than teno and scales better in groups than teno does so it's even less fair than the A vs B example.

But the A vs B example is to try and explain how speed impacts balance and numbers.

When you make something faster than everyone else, you need to consider what will happen when that creature gangs up on other creatures in higher numbers and all that.

[distant torrent]

even with this considered

carno was buffed yet teno remains pathetic with no changes :) fun

[thin mantle]

It was actually nerfed significantly

Because it’s stam drain on attacks hasn’t been adjusted yet

So when you kick you’re losing like 20 seconds of runtime

[shadow vortex]

As always, devs didn't consider their current roster when brought us with this change

[mortal tundra]

@vital gulch The lower the stamina, the slower the regeneration. Also you have to press Z while trotting to walk so you can regenerate stamina. No stamina regen while trotting.

[low lodge]

Yeah tenno was actually playable at some point. Was nerfed every other update after the nesting came out. Tennos require more knowledge/skill to survive with their 4 attacks, bear in mind, keeping track of stam consumption. Yesterday on gateway we lost two ppl mostly cause stam issues rn. But like getting rammed in the tail tip knocks down a full-grown tenno. Gotta love herbi nerfs

[vital gulch]

yes this change it is not good what so ever

[dusky surge]

its good

[warped wharf]

honestly a lot of older herbivores are beginning to feel incomplete or dated. It's pretty clear by now that tenonto and pachy are lacking, with the latter feeling kind of barebones as far as mechanics go.

like tenonto really feels like it could use another attack applied to its tail - maybe a whip that applies moderate damage without the stun, consuming less stamina as a result. meanwhile, pachy's going to be completely obselete once diablo's implemented into the game, both in regards to mechanics and viability.

Also they need to give hypsi its growth stages, venom options, nest-building mechanics and climb already. Might as well since since herrera's being added soon and the core tree climbing mechanics are already there - really, the only grating issue to tackle is the nest-building gimmick, but that can wait.

[strong solar]

tenonto would be back up to A grade playable if it could stop carno's ram with its tail slam

like how it used to

revert it back to that one update where it felt good to play and boom

[thin mantle]

Or just have enough stamina to not exhaust in a fight after like 10 attacks

[distant torrent]

or both

[thin mantle]

Yes

[halcyon elk]

It can, albeit with a bit of toreo.

(Toreo is spanish for bull fighting)

Essentially you gotta weave a dodge slightly and as they charge past tail slam.

Now the carno has no charge, just got hit by a teno tail, and is primed to either get hit again. Or wholloped.

[halcyon elk]

@fiery cipher maybe don't sprint everywhere, trots are going to get buffed my guy.

So I suggest you to, wait for the increases in trot, or maybe change up your Playstyle slightly before making drastic claims such as "almost ruin the game."

[distant torrent]

@uncut trellis ngl I have to squint so hard and zoom in my camera with cera’s nv to try to see anything

but I really do like the fact their nv isn’t just dominating

[dusky surge]

just played cera and yea lol, its crazy how bad it is

genuinely think it might be on-par with stego

[golden coral]

Both cera and stego needs better NV, nothing should have that bad NV that you can't see or do anything at night, it's just not fun