balance-feedback-discussion

[torn egret]

Games made to pvp rn. So it’s unavoidable unless you make cera awful in a fight.

[latent bay]

that's just using the body bonus as a crutch to survive because otherwise it actively cant, that's not disproving my point at all, that's only reiterating how much cerato is required to use it otherwise it gets churned into butter

[torn egret]

I know it’ll happen lol. But that’s just how games work sadly lol

[golden coral]

So we basically agree. My point is purely that current vomit is very effective as a combat/"griefing" tool, and can be used very well vs slower targets, especially if they can't one shot the cera, or if the ceras sacrifice one of their own for the buff to then keep fighting.

[unborn iris]

Even without the buff cera can hold its own.

[thin mantle]

It still can without it, you just become impossible to kill in a 1v1 with it, unless the Cerato is just actively lacking any game sense

[golden coral]

And thus, I would like to see a vomit rework properly, together with other adjustments to make cera good at it's role, and capable of evading when without a body, while fighting when it has one

[thin mantle]

You seem to really underestimate how much damage Cerato can do whilst also stacking vomit

[torn egret]

Love it. But so hard to make it

[thin mantle]

Like cerato’s dps rivals deinos…

[torn egret]

Not at all. You shouldn’t want to fight a cera. You should give up the body you made lol

But that’s not how it’s built now. Wouldn’t mind seeing it get a full rework on vomit/bile. But without it, it’s dead af

[torn egret]

Can’t facetank a carno even after vomit since the cooldown was added

[thin mantle]

Oh sorry not you, was referring to dino but didn’t @

[thin mantle]

You actually can if you have a body

[torn egret]

Lol my b XD

[thin mantle]

Even without it the Carno dies from bleed

[unborn iris]

Why would you facetank something with more health and damage? You outmaneuver it by a mile.

And outstam it.

[torn egret]

IF.
That’s the thing. It’s strong on a body.

[unborn iris]

You don't need a body, just be half decent at the game.

[thin mantle]

If you ever lack a body as a Cerato you’re just playing it wrong, you can literally sprint carry a FG Omni

[unborn iris]

If you're facetanking carnos you're not really there yet, though.

[thin mantle]

That too

[torn egret]

Cause someone said the dpm was crazy lol.
I love cera and I don’t face tank with it lol. It was a reference to someone else. Think you popped in just after

[latent bay]

i disagree with cerato becoming impossible to kill, it should take a second to pump the buffs after it drops smth so its killable but becomes a threat later on, but could you explain to me how Ceratosaurus fairs in 1v1s against Tenontosaurus and Carnotaurus? I personally have never won a 1v1 against either using Ceratosaurus, and have dominated in 1v1s using Tenontosaurus VS Ceratosaurus who didnt abuse buff. This may be because i haven't played cerato enough to execute a strategy i've been thinking of using because i find this game horribly boring in the current state

[unborn iris]

Don't get me wrong, if you are against multiple carnos, things change real quick. But.. it works both ways kind of.

[torn egret]

Cera is great 1v1 if you can make the fight last a while

[mortal tundra]

I've never killed a full grown carno as a cera, but I have escaped them. You could try and make them vomit a lot but it didn't work for me. Then again I didn't have body buff.

[torn egret]

100%.
It’s a higher skill ceiling imo compared to other Dino’s

[latent bay]

clearly, but when Ceratosaurus gets knocked down by Tenontosaurus and its brains get exploded by Carnotaurus' charge (literally everything has that problem tho), Ceratosaurus i can only imgine has a tough time keeping up the fight against either

[torn egret]

Make them chase you, dodge last second so they only hit tail, then charge bite here and there until they run then chase

[torn egret]

You have to waste enemy attacks and stam. Can’t rush in. I’ve killed a pack of stegos, deinos on land, a full pack of Omnis. It’s a defensive fighter. Let you opponent make mistakes

[unborn iris]

Helps to play carno and be able to gauge when the carno should be running lower on stam, then just hound his ass.

[thin mantle]

Certainly! Carno only has an advantage if it is in an entirely open space or lands the first charge, if it lacks either of these things Cerato wins that fight pretty easily with how agile it is and with its much higher DPS. Eventually you can even just tire the carno and execute it.

It’s harder against teno but if you have a Corpse you can literally tank 7 kicks to the face, so it’s quite literally impossible to lose. Also due to tenos high endlag on attacks and low stun time it’s really easy to@bulldoze through one even without a body.

Cerato just generally had a significant advantage against both of its even halfway decent at the game and that’s not even considering body buff…at that point you can literally turn your brain off and spam bite till you win

[torn egret]

Buff is lost if body gets moved. It becomes less

Just saw that msg

[unborn iris]

Honestly I feel like 30% damage reduction is huge. It's kind of mindblowing to me they thought 50% was a good idea.

[thin mantle]

Not as far as I’ve experienced or tested

[torn egret]

No you can’t.
If a cera is on a body, move away from it

[thin mantle]

Right and the Cera doesn’t have to follow you, if the body is smaller than it it can also bring the body with it

[torn egret]

Because you see less bleed. The natural bleed resistance before health drops.

[latent bay]

makes enough sense to me. next time i play isle i'll probably try what you'ev said (brring carrying a body like a hand bag because i will never not be under the belief that doingso is a combintion of magy levels of ridiculous and minmi levels of stupid) ty for elaborating with that

[torn egret]

But the buff only works if it’s over 800kg. So drag it sure, that’s a dumb fight to take lol.

[unborn iris]

I don't understand what you mean

[steep otter]

Cera vs Carno is a more even macthup them People think

[mortal tundra]

I can try that next time, but one time I made one run out of stamina so he just stood still and used alt attack. We were in a field though.

Also every time somebody pings me I feel like Gateway released and then I get sad when it didn't.

[thin mantle]

That’s just wrong, you get max DR from a dryo sized body

[torn egret]

So cera has bleed resistance until like 80% health I think?
So it always feels tanky.

[mortal tundra]

It's not supposed to do that I believe.

[torn egret]

Not at all. Was confirmed by devs

[thin mantle]

Well it’s still in the game then Lol

[torn egret]

Max resistance is large deino or stego body

Smaller bodies only give up to 25%

[thin mantle]

I’m not kidding dryo bodies is what we did all our testing with

You can tank up to 2600 hp worth of damage

[torn egret]

There is a difference if you use a stego body.

[tall bronze]

I think it may have been Kouga, but someone did a testing video showing how the DR buff is inconsistent and buggy with corpse sizes. So it's not surprising if you can get max DR from a Dryo.

[thin mantle]

You’re telling me it can get more than 50?!

[unborn iris]

Confirmed when?

[torn egret]

Idk when you tested, but 25% and 50% is the range. Not a flat 50%

[thin mantle]

I know it’s the range but you get max off of Omni-dryo sized corpses

I retested it last month just to be sure the update didn’t adjust it

[torn egret]

I gotta find it somewhere, but there was a chart made on its dmg resistance

[torn egret]

Idk, I’ve felt the difference when on a bigger body

Imma test it sometime today if I can

[unborn iris]

Because I'm pretty sure that got proven wrong, it's based off growth. 130kg and 100% growth is 50% damage reduction.

Unless they JUST fixed it in the last patch.

[thin mantle]

Like I literally facetanked a Carno last night with just a sub Omni

Which shouldn’t have been max dr regardless

[torn egret]

I was using fg cera.
It is body weight %, but fg cera needs 800kg I think. I gotta find it again

The chart I mean

[torn egret]

Bad carno? Lol

[tall bronze]

Thaaaaaat was what the inconsistency thing was!

[thin mantle]

It doesn’t matter how good it was I tanked all of its hits and we were trading

Hence “facetank”

[torn egret]

Idk man. Fg Carno facetanking never works for me unless I’m on a big body.

Like I said. Testing time

[thin mantle]

this game is weird

[unborn iris]

Just try a full grown dryo, it should give 50% damage reduction to a fg cera, if they didn't fix it.

Which I feel like I would've heard if they fixed it.

[torn egret]

How much does a dryo weigh full grown?

[unborn iris]

130kg

But a 130kg omni won't give the same buff. It takes into account growth too.

[torn egret]

That doesn’t seem right. I’m worried I sound like an idiot lol

[unborn iris]

Needs to be 100% growth or higher growth than you or something.

[golden coral]

Isle being it's usual "won't explain how mechanics works" :p

[unborn iris]

https://www.evrimaquickguide.com/playables/carnivores/ceratosaurus

I'm pretty sure that info at the bottom is what the consensus is for how it actually works.

And I haven't heard anyone talking about it being changed in the last 2 patches.

There is a warning on there about the dryo giving the buff seems buggy and inconsistent.

[torn egret]

That explains it lol

I thought it was based on weight. That’s good to know

Make it based on weight not growth of target lol

[shut laurel]

where do i go to sign up for stress testing for the isle or does that not happen..

[torn egret]

Haven’t seen it advertised

[shut laurel]

hm

[stark knoll]

The application will be posted in #announcements once it reopens

[lilac prawn]

me and some other cc's investigated it, its super buggy

[sonic flame]

A fair amount of the info under the chuff buff section on Cerato's stuff doesn't seem quite right, I'll go verify it

actually looking at it a fair amount is in the ballpark but a bit off still, but the guide looks neat

[dusky surge]

@wraith spindle you gain speed for better diets

at all 3 diets, you are .1km/hr slower than carno

[sonic flame]

okay I just checked it again, it is consistently working as expected, so the guide is just wrong

oh god the youtube comments on videos are even worse

[hasty coyote]

Welcome to anything balance related in the isle. Since the devs don’t like sharing specifics, we get a lot of misinformation thrown about.

[bitter stirrup]

Can ceras make you puke everytime they bite you?

Or is that a sign of cheats

[latent bay]

They should only do that like every few bites or so not every time

[bitter stirrup]

Okay. Damn. So he was cheating. Too late to report now. Well, good to know, thanks

[winter iris]

Does anybody know what is the stam consumption cost of activating carno ram? It seems between 10 and 15% , is it correct?

[dusky surge]

10%

[halcyon elk]

@wraith spindle to boost your speed make sure to eat diets and get all 3 slots filled.

While yes the acceleration is bad, it's an incentive to know when to run for the hills when you see a predator.

@jaunty yew stego is supposed to be strong. And iirc is supposed to get a buff once rex and trike arrive.

Besides, you can only spam the tail attack for so long until your stamina is depleted.

And with the upcoming stamina regen system it'll take a good bit for stegos to regen stam

[cosmic pelican]

@olive wraith Pachy takes 0.75x damage on head, being the only playable which has this multiplier.

[olive wraith]

Ahhhh... didn't know, its perfect then xD.

Edited the suggestion... cheers.

[cosmic pelican]

np!

[hasty coyote]

@olive wraith I have 2 problems with the post:
1: Everything is op in groups, but pachy is at least hard limited in size, has limited speed, and can't track. A large herd of pachies can only take out things up to the size of carno, any bigger and getting the fracture is too difficult/risky (good luck hurting a stego). Plus most dinos can outrun a pachy and escape a horde easily by running to the forest. So unless you're ambushed or unaware, you can escape a herd of pachies easily. A large pack of omnis, on the other hand, has practically no limit in what they can kill, are faster than pachies, and can track. So a herd of pachies is less threatening than a group of most other species, even those of similar size.

2:Yeah pachy can hop on a rock to escape a carno or cerato, but what if there isnt a rock nearby? Especially on Gateway where there are large open plains with virtually no cover or rocks, and half of pachy's diets are in the plains. Even if you make it to a rock, what then? Do you just log out or wait til you or the predator starves/dehydrates to death? Should every playable that can jump be balanced around "just hide on a rock from carno and cera"? Personally, I feel Pachy struggles in these matchups. Current carno, not so much since its easy to dodge, and you can trade a hit for a body fracture and run. However it has been said they are buffing carno's agility, so what will solo pachy do then? Be forced to camp rocks for its existence? The cerato matchup is also very harsh, since pachy can't fracture them in a single hit, is 2 shot by charged bites, and has similar speed and stam to cerato. If you are aware, you can 100% just run for a mile and escape cerato, but if you ran for a little bit and walk into the wrong bush, or the cerato has full stamina diet you just get ran down.

Overall, I think pachy is in a rough spot and a middle ground between constant stuns and 0 stuns must be found. Thats why I advocate for stuns on fractures. That way pachy only has 3 stuns max per target (unless the ram itself applies cc). This means a pachy is rewarded for a break and run, but hindered when it tries to beat to death.

[olive wraith]

Why would you ever be 'hunting' a stego (or something of similar weight) as pachy?

There's 3 strategies : hide, flee and fight. A pachy, 500kg herbivore shouldn't be able to 1 vs 1 everything. In the case of a carno, its a carnivore that's almost 4x heavier... you shouldn't be able to easily stun and get away. Hiding and running onto obstacles is a legitimate balance strategy... it works. (Make sure to have an escape route or a safe rock close by from where you plan to eat... its a risk; as it should be).

Cera isn't a real issue if you're aware and are decently skilled.

As for my point about pachy being insanely strong or OP in herds... I was refering to its ability to apply leg break; which essentially guarantees death for the Dino on the receiving end. If you made it also stun, it would just be beyond overkill.

[hasty coyote]

My point was not that pachy herds should hunt stegos, I’m saying they can’t. While another animal of a similar size, Omni, is strong enough to hunt down a stego. Showing that pachy herds are actually not too strong compared to groups of other similarly sized species. While getting leg fractured by a herd of pachies is a death sentence, it also requires the target to misplay. Just like you think cerato isn’t an issue for pachy, a herd of pachies shouldn’t be an issue for most Dinos that are faster. The only ones that really struggle with pachy herds are carno(if they can’t reach the forest in time), cerato, and teno. Most of which struggle as much or more against Omni (except cerato because it is designed to counter Omni) because it’s faster and the bleed forces them to stand their ground and not move too much or die faster.

I also do not want a pachy to 1v1 anything and win. I want pachy to 1v1 anything and survive. By this I mean if you get spotted by something, there should be methods to either run or fight it. I do not like anything’s only method of surviving an encounter just be hiding, that’s literally the reason you almost never see juvies. Their only way to survive most encounters is to hide, the best way to hide is to afk in a bush. If you’re best method of surviving as an adult is afk in a bush, then why not play something that doesn’t have to?

Also, adding stuns on fracture essentially does nothing for herds of Pachies beating something to death. It would only help save them from 3 hits max, and by that point whatever they’re fighting is dead. This change only helps pachies who do the break and run strategy by allowing them to go for a break and make a mistake, rather than getting a break then dying to a single mistake.

And hiding on a rock is a viable strategy, but it shouldn’t be the only one. That means Pachy wouldn’t be able to exist anywhere without rocks, requiring the map to be designed around it, or pachy to be relegated to small areas of the map.

[distant torrent]

calling herds of pachies op is like calling a current trio of carnos perfectly balanced

[keen plover]

Numbers are OP

[dusky surge]

@alpine plover ironically, i think giga was far stronger than rex in legacy in terms of overall impact on the roster, with its insane trotrate, bleed damage and other stats, as well as its superior stamina. As for the other apexes, not all of them need to be as fast. Spino can afford to be slow because it can easily retreat to water. Giga can arguably be made faster, but we'll have to wait and see. Otherwise, I think balancing factors can be made that aren't just "make other apexes absurd to compensate"

if stego is being redesigned to actually survive rex, i'm sure the other apexes will be fine

[obtuse ocean]

Same, i also tho giga was much better overall. And i loved that rex was hunting them if it got the opportunity. Dont know why fights should be equal if they both have pros/cons that are diffrent.

[winter iris]

@alpine plover Hope your post on omni was sarcastic 🤣

[alpine plover]

@dusky surge @obtuse ocean my point is purely about the balance between the apexes. No doubt legacy giga is better at hunting mid tiers than rex, in terms of apex balance however, rex in legacy is completely broken, running down the apexes and not leaving them a realistic chance to win the fight. Rex is far stronger than the other apexes and wins 90% of apex fights with ease.

[hollow canyon]

Spino retreating to water? Spino was murderising anything and everything other than T.rex. It was effectively a slightly differently working Giganoto on steroids.

if Giga had the upper chance against a Trike, then Spino had the upper chance against a whole herd of Trikes and while we're at it - against Giga too.

25 bleed healing per minute goes brrrr

while dishing out about as much bleed as Giga and having a vastly superior ambush than either Giga or T.rex

[halcyon elk]

My thinking is the main weaknesses of rex are things relative to its size. Trike, giga, spino in water, anky, and several others would be very dangerous for rex to hunt.

Besides growth for apexes is going to be hell

[steep otter]

Giga will be faster them rex if it is not is just dumb

I imagine something like acro>carcha? Or giga > Rex > spino in terms of speed

[random stump]

spino will probably be the slowest apex theropod just because its semi aquatic so it can escape via water

[dusky surge]

i think it should be the second slowest non sauropod in the game

second to anky

[random stump]

deinochirus, spino, and deinosuchus should all be slow on land

[steep otter]

It will be

[obtuse ocean]

But why should it be slow? Its supose to hunt,and its not gonna be very stealthy for sure lol. And why does it need to escape? Its not much that it will be escaping from

[dusky surge]

because it's a spino. it shouldn't be fast. It should primarily focus on a sedimentary fisher/bully lifestyle

if it isn't fishing, it's bullying people away from their food and stealing it for itself

after all, when faced with arguably the biggest carnivore in the game, who also happens to be a competent brawler, you might not want to hold onto your meal so much

[latent bay]

Would it not need to be escaping T. rex?

[dusky surge]

i mean, it could arguably throw down with a rex and win

but it'd also need the water in case of emergency

the "its supposed to hunt" mindset sucks. spino should be a horrid hunter, it should be an AMAZING brawler and territory controller to compensate. Once a spino decides it owns a lake, there's not much you can do to make it reconsider

[obtuse ocean]

Yea could be true, i just see it as bad for an apex. To just scare stuff. But fish is a good point

[dusky surge]

it's far more interesting than another generic hunter therapod

we already have rex and giga for the exact purpose of "big scary hunter therapod" (and charchar and acro if you count those)

[latent bay]

I get its deviljho spino but my GOD if it beats rex regularly enough to not have to use water in a head to head on land that'd be totally ridiculous

[dusky surge]

let spino be something actually unique

[dusky surge]

i mean, in my head, rex should be able to just run from spino and escape with ease

[obtuse ocean]

Prob yes ,but you wont see rexes every meter. Staying close ish to water is prob safer.

[dusky surge]

spino should basically be the carnivore wall of the isle imho

it should stake its claim, rather than roam for food

most animals should be able to run from spino and live with ease. The only one that shouldn't is anky imho

[latent bay]

But why should Tyrannosaurus rex be forced to flee though? Shouldn't rex be dominating that fight and be running from Triceratops and Shantungosaurus?

[dusky surge]

why should it be dominating

like, i dont see why it should

[latent bay]

Because of its tremendous damage output, durability, speed and that Spinosaurus is actively out of its element

[dusky surge]

spinos weakness should be that it is slow as hell

it uses water to compensate for the fact that most animals can just easily outpace it

[obtuse ocean]

I agree, i hope rex beats the crap outta giga and spino in head on. Its good for the ecosystem that you have one on top that actually hunt other apexes if it gets the chance

[dusky surge]

spino isn't like deino, it's not actively supposed to be waterlocked

[dusky surge]

literally what beats rex if it beats all these things lol

[latent bay]

Triceratops, Camarasaurus, Brachiosaurus, whatever diplodocid they decide to use, and Shantungosaurus

[obtuse ocean]

I dont wont apexes to just walk past eachother and nod. Cus noone dears to attack

[dusky surge]

rex should beat giga, sure, that makes sense, but i would not be mad if spino also beat rex, for the sole reason that the moment the spino is in a situation where it's too far out of its element, it's literally screwed

[dusky surge]

that's what would happen, because no one dares attack rex

[obtuse ocean]

Like in legacy rex beat those with ease,but i would fight a rex over giga anytime as small/mid

[dusky surge]

because rex wins by context of being rex

[latent bay]

this is the problems of adding T. rex

[dusky surge]

i would literally much prefer spino beats rex because it's bigger, stronger and a massive bully, but it's slow as sin

so it can't hunt good, meaning it SHOULD be strong enough to competently contest a rex for a kill

its downside evidently being that if the tides ever turn poorly for mr spino, and he's not near water, he is now dead spino, as he is far too slow to escape

[obtuse ocean]

Nah sounds bad, spino has the water advantage. It cant have all

[dusky surge]

how

legit dude, it's SLOW

like, I want it to be second to ANKY levels of slow. I want stego outrunning it

[obtuse ocean]

Think even the devs said they wanted spino aggrwsive in water and defence on land. I dont like that either

[dusky surge]

i fail to see the problem with that

i don't like it being super aggro in water, but that's it really

[obtuse ocean]

I dont like slow apexes,without ambush and zero stalth its sounds very underperforming as apex. Its still slow ofcourse since its huge,but not anky slow

[dusky surge]

do you literally just want every apex to be the same playstyle but with different coats of paint lol

big scary aggro hunter

that's so lame lol

[obtuse ocean]

Yes? Thats what an apex is? Big scary exactly how they should be

[dusky surge]

why even pick a spino, it's just a water rex that loses to rex. just pick rex

hell, giga is just terrible because it's a worse rex in all regards. Same playstyle, but it consistently loses to rex

they provide nothing new

they're the same thing. Each animal is a boring W+M1 scary hunter animal

nothing can have a unique niche or playstyle because then it's somehow not an apex anymore

i would literally much rather spino be something new than just the same formula

[obtuse ocean]

Same playstyle? Giga and rex had completly diffrent playstyles . And you can make it much better in diffrent in evrima

[dusky surge]

they both run at things, bite them, they die. I want spino to be different

it already has the components to be different having a semi-aquatic playstyle

so making it slow and poor at chase, but excellent in close quarters brawls and bullying would be amazing for the animal

[obtuse ocean]

Ia giga suddently worse then rex now?

[dusky surge]

you literally said giga should lose to rex

[dusky surge]

would give the apexes something to fear when moving around in the form of a big angry screaming sail kaiju, while not making something exceptionally dominant as everything can decide "nope" and leave the spino alone to its territory

also territorial animals are cool and underrepresented in the isle

[obtuse ocean]

Yes head on, that does not mean in worse. You even said giga was far better overall. Pros and cons man

[dusky surge]

pros:

• can use water good
• highest weight and health of any apex
• extremely powerful brawler

cons:

• slow as hell
• bad hunter
• bad ambusher because it has a colossal sail poking out of its back and is also slow

done, pros and cons

[obtuse ocean]

Yes now you made pros and cons. Thats one way

[dusky surge]

if spino comes out and it literally is just another generic hunter therapod i will be so goddamn disappointed lol

what a waste of an actually potentially cool concept for an animal for a safe, generic option which appeals to people who want their hunter fantasy and shuts down any unique possibility for apex playstyles that deviate from the norm

[obtuse ocean]

For me that pros/cons you said,sounds incredible boring. If you want non oppresive apexes thats fine. Then we disagree on it

[dusky surge]

spino is INSANELY oppressive

the entire idea i have relies on it being nothing but oppressive

so oppressive that very few dare mess with its claims

its presence should literally make people go "oh god" and either flee or prepare to smack down bigtime

i want spino to be VERY oppressive, not another generic hunter therapod that can also dip in water sometimes

i want it to take a lake by force and dare anyone to drink from it

i want it to forcibly evict other aquatics from their homes because it decided it liked their home more

i want it to see a dead trike and go "haha that was a good hunt, but i want that food more" and take it because the hell are you gonna do, tell it no?

that's oppressive

[plain portal]

That just sounds like path of titans spino ngl

[dusky surge]

i literally do not know about that game but from what i've heard, it can just be built into another generic hunter therapod

[plain portal]

I personally would want spino to be one of the quicker and more agile apexes.

[halcyon elk]

I kinda like this idea, but another thing is I hope it kinda has a thing where while yes it can be very oppressive, something like a rex can smack it goofy if rex has right.

[plain portal]

Could be one of the more versatile ones as well, due to its semi aquatic nature

[halcyon elk]

I think the opposite. Considering it is a BEHEMOTH

[plain portal]

I get that, but at the same time it would definitely weigh less then rex and giga for example. Size does work as intimidation tho, which would work well

[halcyon elk]

Also didn't they say spino is like a hippo in the sense thay it can't swim erll.

[halcyon elk]

Our spino is like JP3 spino. Possible estimates say 9 tons.

If I had the size chart I'd show you

[plain portal]

There was like one study that said spino couldn’t swim Irl tbf. That study was also for currently paleo accurate spino

[plain portal]

Ah I see, then yeah I get where you are coming from

[halcyon elk]

This is new spino btw

[plain portal]

I get what you mean then yeah

[graceful swallow]

the deino wrangler

[plain portal]

I’m fine with it being an absolute brute then

[graceful swallow]

I kinda want realistic spino but like 13 tons

[plain portal]

How much is Rex in this game going for?

[halcyon elk]

Iirc last estimate was 8.5 tons

[plain portal]

Interesting

I would prefer if spino had faster water decay to keep it more towards rivers if it’ll be so powerful then

Or maybe allow perks to allow you to speck into land or water more so

[halcyon elk]

Most if not all semi aquatic have that drawback

[plain portal]

Good good

[halcyon elk]

The ones I don't see having it are sucho and deinocheirus, which seem to be slightly independent

[random stump]

and sauropods
because i doubt brachi is going to give the slightest of f#*@s about a spino

[plain portal]

Duck maybe, although sucho I can definitely see that. Sucho has always been more of a terrestrial semi

[hollow canyon]

wdym? The T.rex in this game is very much Scotty-sized if put at the Scotty/Sue length

[halcyon elk]

Iirc the size chart says around 8.5 tons

[alpine plover]

i'm playing a game where herbivores chase carnivores

:v

[halcyon elk]

I mean that does happen in nature

Herbivores aren't just eat grass and get killed ya know

[hollow canyon]

that's a complete guess, all the apex sizes are based on just what felt right at the time and their old size estimates, the size chart hasn't been updated in ages too

[halcyon elk]

Aight fair enough

[hollow canyon]

either way Nova himself confirmed that the in game T.rex isn't really smaller than Scotty

it simply has proportions that are off

it's bigger in places where it shouldn't be that big and it's smaller in places where irl T.rex is bigger

Also - I'd personally add that I feel that the apexes should indeed have a much tougher lifetime and progress to elders than most other animals.

I believe that(utilising a very old suggestion from legacy-times) they should get to a size of some 4-5t relatively decently quickly and then the growth to their full size which would allow them to get to elder should take a truly long time.

This would mean that the apexes that are absolute killing machines and literally titanic would get to that absurd size very, very slowly.

And while smaller they'd be very much killable albeit still dangerous

all in all more so Acro/Sucho tier and then slowly growing into the collosi that they are

[obtuse ocean]

Not sure, i mean. Apexes are not killing machines, people hate them cus they are hard to kill. Take legacy i killed more in 2 hours playtime in a pack of utahs then i did with my rex in 3 days. Maybe im just bad at apex playing, but i barely died from them compared to mid/small tiers

[latent bay]

Don't mean to point at an old discussion again but looking back here you do make some seriously valid points

It's just that me personally, my immersion would break if I saw spino killing rex, and that is purely because of the paleo accuracy argument (im a sucker for it and will reach wherever i can for it)

But I'm also the same guy who wants Suchomimus kick-boxing and 1v3ing Allosaurus so who am I to judge

[plain portal]

Personally, I wouldn’t really be against seeing a spino kill a rex if they were properly balanced around each other and one wasn’t outright superior

[obtuse ocean]

But why should they be prober balanced? You want them to be diffrent from eachothers with diffrent playstyle. And you want one to be superior if given the chance so they actually kill eachother.

[hollow canyon]

I think Spino vs other apexes fight should be Spino fighting for survival

as in - Spino would struggle with dealing the finishing blow even if it's winning the fight, because it can't keep its opponents engaged against their will

so the other apexes would have to make a mistake of overstaying in that fight and carrying it on for too long.

This would change completely in the water, even shallow water, where Spino could outspeed them while they're both wading

[plain portal]

Can you explain what you said better please?

[plain portal]

I would be fine with this personally. Especially sense spinos diet primarily revolves around fish

Doesn’t need to kill apexes, just defend itself

[obtuse ocean]

I want them to be diffrent, pros/cons. If i play giga i have another playstyle then playing rex. And i do not want them to be evenly matched in a head on 1v1 fight.

[plain portal]

Ah I get what you mean. Well I don’t mean completely even, I just mean balanced to the point where one isn’t completely dominant and gives the other no/very low chance at winning

[hollow canyon]

ye, furthermore I'd say that Spino should be the best apex at defending from groups of smaller animals, thus making it the best animal at usurping the kills. It should however be very, very wary of other apexes while on land.

[plain portal]

At the same time, the estimates for this spino the isle are making are up to like 9 tons.

[obtuse ocean]

yea, i like this to

[plain portal]

I can see both points tho, and I like your thinking

[hollow canyon]

it could be even larger tbh

[obtuse ocean]

depends on how effective the mechanics are, in legacy the only reason it survived was bonebreak lol. Without it giga would demolish it

[hollow canyon]

it does seem more massive than Giga and T.rex

and if those are 10t+ then oh boi...

[plain portal]

Yeah, that’s why I personally think a defensive gameplay, but can’t secure a kill super easily would be good as you were saying. It’s weight would be good for defense while it mainly preyed on fish

Also, like you were saying, spino would be best waiting out the opponent on land. With bleed so forth

[obtuse ocean]

Spino will prob rely on claws and bleed, rex would prob just wanne end the fight fast as possible.

[plain portal]

Agreed

[obtuse ocean]

Ofcourse the longer the fight, the worse for the rex

[plain portal]

Spino of course also has the opportunity to flee to water. Same would go to Rex with being able to go into deeper land

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but im not sure how long a apex fight gonna last. I mean its some seriously damage. And prob abilities that can cripple.

[plain portal]

Yeah definitely

Plus, they aren’t running around each other like mid tiers

Ngl, I’d like if spino could grapple

Or duck

[obtuse ocean]

Ahh, yes duck. thats my favorite dino so far, hope they threat him good : P

[plain portal]

I want the duck to be epic lol

[obtuse ocean]

It was even my fav in pot lol

[plain portal]

Irl duck was bigger than Rex

[obtuse ocean]

Yea its huge, those claws gonna be good i hope : P

[plain portal]

I love how theri is tickle chicken, and duck is steroid goose

[latent bay]

Well that's just false. Deinocheirus caps at 7-8 tonnes, rex averages that and caps at 10.5 tonnes

[plain portal]

I don’t mean weight

But yeah rex weighed more

[obtuse ocean]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/664914260648001555/850527273542746142/Deinocheirus_concept.jpg?ex=6516bf00&is=65156d80&hm=428b4ceb46ab29d43493e95fa79c3fc1076f44a906d311f665873f002879483b&=&width=869&height=676

looks beefy

[plain portal]

Bro is the steroid goose truly

[latent bay]

Weight literally equals size

Like scientifically if you think otherwise you're actively factually incorrect

[plain portal]

Well I agreed with you so it’s aight

[latent bay]

Ight cool

[hollow canyon]

Deinocheirus' top weight is 8.4t or 8.8t, it's quite a bit bigger than the average T.rex. T.rex max weight meanwhile is 10.4t.

but in general at such high weights you can add or take away a couple hundred kg because they're nothing on something so enormous and it could depend on the seasons of the year and other stuff

[wet sleet]

@compact bolt I gave you the X, because it's too general. Most animals don't have that issue at all, more the contrary. For example, Carno does get too much pressure, Stego gets way too little.

[keen plover]

Dilo & Halloween?? @alpine plover

[alpine plover]

idk, but i saw ppl asking it

[thin mantle]

Bird I actually just noticed the jump landing momentum cancel and it makes me cringe into a black hole

How long has that even been in the game for?

[keen plover]

Oh well that’s goofy yeah. Should release when it’s ready

[alpine plover]

yes

[keen plover]

Since whenever I made the post iirc

The vomit change update

[thin mantle]

Oh so like a month or so ago? wow how has that slipped past me

Oh my god this is so funny

Pounce has less endlag than regular jumping

[dusky surge]

as it should

raptor was too hard

[thin mantle]

Honestly I don't think omni can possibly be viable if pounce isn't easy

How else would literal deino only players be able to grasp it's deep complexities and nuances

I'm actually sorta, quite possibly, upset and perplexed as to why dismount doesn't have i frames :p

smh my head

[dusky surge]

deino players when forced to play a carnivore that requires more thinking than wait and RMB

[slim dragon]

I think I remember someone once asking for a 1s invulnerability after dismounting

[open sleet]

It should be <1s but there should definitely be something, so long as net is janky. Even on other people's footage you see raptor pounces connect, they hop off and then as their feet hit the ground, the raptor is sucked back in time to be in a carno or cera's mouth.

[thin mantle]

So fix the servers and don't overbuff omni past the current state of it borderline being a protagonist oc

Cuz it REALLY doesn't need any more help

[unborn iris]

Raptor is too easy right now, for sure. As someone who mostly plays raptor, I'm starting to feel sorry for the carnos.

[steep otter]

Oni is fine

But being able to jump at a stego tail and be able to pounce it is kinda of crazy

[solid imp]

It only needs pounce punishment back

That's IT

[unborn iris]

Missed Pounce punishment and tap pounce not being exponentially stronger than holding a pounce, in every scenario.

[latent bay]

I clulda sworn scotty was 10.5 and not 10.4 but we ball either way

[hollow canyon]

it was the MUCPv-95 that was 10.5t at times, Scotty was 10.4t

at one point Scotty was 11t but got downsized down to 10.4t rather quickly in the end.

[latent bay]

Makes sense, checks out

[hollow canyon]

but realistically both can be at either size depending on how much soft tissue is slapped onto them

[latent bay]

Make Scotty obese and make him diplo size

[amber eagle]

Not really as tap pouncing needs fixing as well

[coarse blaze]

I'm genuinely curious if kent will be playable on officials, surely - if people had an issue with steg this won't be whined about any less

I know it's smaller but for sure it'll do fair bleed

[cosmic pelican]

Iirc kentro will be a bit smaller than teno, slower too, so hopefully it will be playable

[dusky surge]

if it is a herbivore and it can defend itself, it will be seen as a problem

[latent bay]

Clearly every herbivore is meek and defenseless. All African elephants never fight, even amongst eachother, and all hippopotamus just sit there and do nothing while lions chew on its spleen

[coarse blaze]

If a steg at 40% can pack a punch you know kent should be able to, fingers crossed it'll be more than food if even playable.

[coarse blaze]

Honestly they should take notes on the herbivores of Africa lowkey

[latent bay]

Agreed

[coarse blaze]

Or people who think they should "eat grass and die" should acknowledge them

[latent bay]

Also agreed

[dusky surge]

they do, but they only seem to acknowledge antelopes and zebras for some reason (despite the fact zebras are violent af)

[coarse blaze]

If the monochrome rage-filled donkey can't fight off a lion or massive crocodile it must just be food

[latent bay]

That moment when Zebras hit with the equivalent force of an angry mother with a flip flop rampaging up the stairs

Apply that philosophy for Tenontosaurus' tail slam i beg

[coarse blaze]

I know it's more speculative given the model isn't too accurate but I love how Anky is looking and I just hope it ends up being exactly what it should. Tanky and scary to approach. And please give that club some fracture, absolutely cripple any overly-confident carnivore. I love the rhino-like plating look.

https://tenor.com/view/indominous-rex-bite-fighting-jurassic-world-gif-17280654

Anky my beloved, please don't be another easy-herbi. You're a literal tank dinosaur.

[dusky surge]

raptor mains will complain they cant kill it dw

[coarse blaze]

That club should 100% body a raptor

[latent bay]

I fear for my personal favorite Triceratops myself. I really hope it isnt food

[dusky surge]

but its a punch-up predator!

[coarse blaze]

or at least cripple it

[latent bay]

Absolutely one shot. If kill gore is ever added the omni's guts should paint the trees a new color

[obtuse ocean]

A raptor? It just be some dust left of the raptor lol

[coarse blaze]

Complaining that you can't kill the several tonned rock with a club because you're a punch-up pred

[dusky surge]

they'll do it

[coarse blaze]

Waiting for carnos to whine that they can't bite it's back

[latent bay]

They're omni mains. They have omnitism (it's every autism possible)

[coarse blaze]

I swear the egos that come with specific species is beyond me

[latent bay]

Carno mains when Carnotaurus can't turn teno to glue in one charge

[narrow lodge]

40% stego is larger than a kentro, like considerbly so

tho of course a kentro should have better defenses

since its spikes are larger as an adult

[coarse blaze]

40% is around 2 tons though isn't it? Kent is small but 40% steg isn't even sub-adult really

[latent bay]

If what Mr. Potato said about kent being smaller than teno is true, then kent's probably like cera sized, if a tad larger

[hollow canyon]

and Kentro is still smaller than that "not even sub-adult" Stego.

[coarse blaze]

I know this is more realistic and the Isle steg is a tad bigger than the real-life counterpart but surely if kent is anywhere close to how big it was in reality isn't that about the same size? I don't recall 40% steg being that large

because at 30-38% you're still walking food to most things

[dusky surge]

isle stego is smaller than irl stego iirc

irl stego could get up to 8 tons

[coarse blaze]

Ooh! I knew it was one of the two, I just knew it was a bit off compared to the real-life steg

forgot it's Jurassic Park that up-sizes it's species

Like dorsal fins aside, that second grey body is the 30-40% range of growth

roughly 60% is that second to last body, the sizes don't seem that different

[hollow canyon]

Isle Stego isn't bigger than irl counterpart at all, very much the opposite - it's smaller

[hollow canyon]

second to last is 50-75%, first is 0-25%, second 25-50% and the very last one is 75-100%

they naturally grow during those ranges I believe the ones we see there are at the end of their growh during that stage

overall Stego dwarfs Kentro to an enormous extent

and Kentro is nowhere near as powerful or dangerous

[coarse blaze]

Yes I know, I was just told and acknowledged I had it backwards.

And just like I said above, I'm aware that the second outline is where the 40% would lie - to which I said looked very similar in size to kent.

I'm not saying it should be as strong, I'm saying it should pack a punch. Genuinely was all I was referring to.

[hollow canyon]

it should but definitely nowhere near Stego

[coarse blaze]

Now anky

That could be up there

[hollow canyon]

Anky is possibly maybe but not necessarily bigger than Stego

and definitely dwarfs Kentro

either Sucho sized or ~9t

[coarse blaze]

Anky doesn't need size thankfully

[hollow canyon]

it has it either way

and also I wouldn't be too sure about it not needing the size

there is a Tarbosaurus on the paleorecord that fed ONLY on Ankylosaurs

so yea, they are far from untouchable

[narrow lodge]

I don't think so honestly, a 24% stego is larger than the 1st model and a 49% is larger than 2nd but a 74% steg might be close to 3rd picture honestly but it's just too inconsistent

I think they just pick the sizes to show arbitraly

[narrow lodge]

Do take into the account that Kentro is also proportionally thinner than a stego of same height, so it's going to be lighter even if it's longer. An adult kentro will be around Cerato size that we got in game, and definitely below 1.5 tons even if they upsize it

But of course it'll also be much more viable than a stego of same size, due to better reach of the tail and most likely bigger damage since its spikes are much larger

also faster most likely

[narrow lodge]

They applied it to its kicks, which honestly are great

[hollow canyon]

yea but you still have the first model highlighted when you're 24% and the second one when you're 49%. They could be showing the animal at the start of their growth or maybe just being slapped there without adjusting for proper size of the animal.

[narrow lodge]

It'd be best if the mode only showed juvi and adult and then changed dynamically for Inbetween changes. But that's probably too much effort for not much purpose other than accurately showing you your size

So we'll have to live with this for now at least

[hollow canyon]

true

tbh it's always been like this, it's effectively ported from legacy with slight changes

[narrow lodge]

Yup, but legacy had periodical growth so the portraits actually matched

We have seamless growth so it doesn't anymore

Outdated ui element

[hollow canyon]

true

[dawn falcon]

Wouldn’t mind if the portraits grew with the character so they were accurate

[narrow lodge]

It would be really cool

But not sure if that should be a priority

[keen plover]

@compact bolt

Getting stuck is such a detriment and makes it so Carno has to hope a target is solo. If players are sat together and are within knockdown range, it's fair game

If they play badly, they deserve to get punished

Just my opinion on that though 🙂

[hollow canyon]

tbh it might actually be better for Carno if it stops

if Carno stops upon knocking down its target

it can just maul it on the spot

as it is it has to stop, turn around and go back

effectively wasting a tonne of time before it can start mauling its target

I think this could very well be a buff for Carno and make it far more lethal

[keen plover]

It's getting an acceleration buff to allow it to follow up better. While yeah it's better vs solo targets, it's a lot worse off against groups. Rarely do you find solo small tiers.

Having a Carno pair and being able to use charge to run past is more effective. Also sometimes you just want to go through a few juvis to get to an adult. If it's weight based then sure.

There are definitely pros / cons for both though.

Like an Omni shouldn't stop a Carno. Also having unique knockdown timers could bypass the issue (if they're willing to do that lol)

[hollow canyon]

true

[hollow canyon]

the suggestion was for it to work like that on things 1t+

as in - an Omni would get rolled over even if a dozen of them was to stand behind it

they'd all be sent flying

[keen plover]

I think Teno ~ should be something that stops a Carno personally

[hollow canyon]

Tenos however not so much

if that stopped Carno Carno could just maul the Teno and get away before it gets up while dishing out more damage than it can now

unlike what it's like now where Carno has to get back to it and start attacking it and risks getting stricken back if it stays there for that long

although I suppose Carno is currently JUST about charging

and not much biting is involved

which is a really dumb design for Carno

bites should be the main way to deal damage for it right now

[keen plover]

Last time we had something close to that was a year ago. We've had boring balance designs for so long now

[torn egret]

really wish tracking was better

Just lost a teno because im a solo troodon.

[torn egret]

Also, can we make it harder for troodon to get body blocked? Small thing gets stuck on everything

[thin mantle]

Small animals get stuck on the least amount of obstacles by far

They have the most mobility and can fit in the tightest spaces

Their physics aren’t any different either

Stegos get blocked by Troodon’s just as hard as Troodon’s get stuck on stegos

Actually “bodyblocking” is getting buffed with trample damage

So instead of getting blocked you’ll just sorta die if the animal is big enough

[hollow canyon]

it's getting nerfed. Nobody's going to be bodyblocking with trample.

[thin mantle]

Unless your goal is to kill whatever is trying to get to the other side of you

[hollow canyon]

yes, yes, that is precisely the goal of bodyblocking something - to kill it.

[thin mantle]

It totally can be :p
If you're in a tighter space trying to box something in cutting off escape routes or preventing yourself from becoming surrounded then sure it can be

[hollow canyon]

I wouldn't bodyblock someone unless I was trying to kill them

[thin mantle]

Could also bodyblock in the context of tanking hits for someone else

[hollow canyon]

that's not bodyblocking, that's just tanking for someone

bodyblocking is specifically walking in someone's way to stop them from moving

[latent bay]

Is that not an instance of you using your body to block a hit for someone though?

Literally bodyblocking?

[thin mantle]

Seems like it's both then :p

[hollow canyon]

no, that is not bodyblocking

[latent bay]

That... doesn't make any sense

[hollow canyon]

bodyblocking in video games makes someone unable to move

due to you being in there way

taking a hit for someone is just tanking for them

[thin mantle]

you necessarily need to bodyblock in order to perform that tho

[hollow canyon]

irl=/=video games

[thin mantle]

You're an obstacle preventing them from moving towards their actual target

So if a carno is for example charging at a teno and a stego gets in it's way it's doing both

[hollow canyon]

that's just bodyblocking

[slim dragon]

The term bodyblocking only applies to movement, not attacks
It's preventing someone from going a certain direction with your hitbox

[hollow canyon]

Carno can't charge through Stego

[hollow canyon]

^ this

that's what the terms means in video games

[thin mantle]

Right which is why I've been saying an example of that is both tanking and bodyblocking

[hollow canyon]

that's not tanking though, Stego doesn't take damage from Carno's charge and if Carno decides to start biting it well...

you effectively bodyblocked and killed it there

because it will die if it's forced to stay there

e.g. I bodyblock Carno as a Teno from charging at me

[thin mantle]

Damage is still tanked even if you negate all of the incoming damage

[hollow canyon]

by walking in front of it and shortening the distance to prevent it from starting the charge

[hollow canyon]

ermm? No?

you don't tank the damage that isn't dealt

you just bodyblock it and prevent it from dealing the damage in the first place

easy

[latent bay]

Woah wait Carnotaurus' charge just straight up doesn't work on Stegosaurus?

That... is stranger than a horned lizard right there

[thin mantle]

I don't understand how damage negation of existing damage doesn't qualify as tanking the damage :p

[hollow canyon]

yea, Stego is too big, Carno is the one that gets stunned and takes damage from it

[thin mantle]

Does tanking as a term only apply to a deduction in hp?

[hollow canyon]

if you charge anything above 2.7t as Carno that's what happens

[dusky surge]

how is that strange lol

[hollow canyon]

as far as I ever heard - yes

[thin mantle]

I don't think I've ever heard it used that exclusively tbh

So that's news to me

[hollow canyon]

it's a term from MMORPGs - you "TANK" with a "TANK" - both a verb and a noun - by drawing aggro from a boss and taking the damage from it so that your allies don't get hurt.

[latent bay]

Because an 1800 kilogram meat car should be able to at least somewhat harm a 6 tonne meat building imo

I also am not a fan of stego doing literally nothing but exist to render Carnotaurus completely unable to interact with it using its ability, further rendering a third of its kit worthless

[hollow canyon]

but it is very much applied in other games

you tank with the tanky units in strategy games

so that your squishy damage dealers don't get hurt and killed

[thin mantle]

Oh ok, still sounds like the only actual requirement is a redirection of damage onto yourself instead of your HP being depleted directly.
Like if it was that specific then sheilding damage wouldn't count as tanking if shields lacked durability

It's not really that important but I've honestly never thought about it that much

[hollow canyon]

well if you're invlunerable to damage you can still tank but if you walk in front of something to prevent it from moving that's very much bodyblocking

[thin mantle]

Right right, that's why I was calling that an example of both tanking and bodyblocking, you're absorbing what would've been damage to the teno by negating it, and stopping the carno with collision

[dusky surge]

i feel carno's charge is so fundamentally broken, i'm completely fine with it being useless against stego

[hollow canyon]

either way if you prevent Carno from getting to whatever as a Stego and it's start mauling you, even if it doesn't deal much damage to you, that's bodyblocking it

[thin mantle]

yep

[hollow canyon]

yea but in this case you have to get in front of the Carno, unless the player got so enraged that they actually charged you with intent of.. dealing damage(read - committing suicide)

but overall I don't think the discussion was about tanking at all

the first person that mentioned their troodon getting bodyblocked definitely didn't mean that they "tanked" something for someone, they just got stuck and couldn't move with that Troodon quite clearly so idk where tanking appeared from in this conversation

[latent bay]

Well

I dont necessarily disagree. I hate the way Carnotaurus is designed as much as the next guy, I especially despise how it can disintegrate Ceratosaurus and Tenontosaurus without thought. But its ability should at least do something to Stegosaurus

[dusky surge]

i mean, it's not even going to do anything to maia, so having it do something to stego would be weird

[thin mantle]

It came up when we I mentioned other uses for bodyblocking aside from just stopping people with the intent to kill them specifically, it wasn't anything more than a side note

[thin mantle]

Carno charging into a stego is about as consequential as a 5 year old tackling a bodybuilder, not sure why it would do much of anything but hurt the carno

[hollow canyon]

I think you mentioned that but that's not what the first person was talking about there

[latent bay]

It not doing anything to Maiasaura is even stranger to me since the Maiasaura seems to do nothing as well. Maiasaura has a monstrous weight advantage sure but I think Maiasaura canceling charge should play into an ability and not just a passive "you interacted with me" screw you ability

[thin mantle]

Yeah I know

[hollow canyon]

no, not really, Maia is just too big, you're not charging it as a Carno, it's actually shown blocking the charge and mauling Carno

you don't want to charge that potato

[thin mantle]

I mean, that's nothing new, kentro is most likely going to just kill anything that tries to pounce it

Passively

[dusky surge]

i mean, i dont see why a passive deflect is bad

[latent bay]

You all got me there

[hollow canyon]

if you charge an Allo or an Alberto you will almost certainly die there too

[dusky surge]

it will literally punji pit a herrera

[thin mantle]

You jump into the spikes and you die, you charge into the wall of meat and it'll hurt you xD

[hollow canyon]

you will effectively just stun yourself next to a much bigger theropod

[latent bay]

Well ain't that just the isle equivalent of the Ryan's World VS Mayweather meme

[thin mantle]

pit digging mutation for kentro wen

[hollow canyon]

not sure if that means what I think it does but if it does - then yes

edit: yes, that's precisely what I think it is, that's exactly what would happen

[thin mantle]

A character arc just occured lol

[latent bay]

He just needed to develop his character a bit before being reintroduced into the story

[hollow canyon]

I actually just needed to check what Ryan's World was

[thin mantle]

Aken will return in season 3

[hollow canyon]

the very look at the first picture told me all I needed to know

[thin mantle]

wait now I need to look it up cuz I actually have no idea who this is

[latent bay]

He's a child

[hollow canyon]

some kids' show

yes, with a kid ofc

[hollow canyon]

I never watched stuff like that even when I was a kid so

[thin mantle]

Checks out, the most worthy combatant

[latent bay]

I was entirely referring to this

[hollow canyon]

ye, figured

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message
I want troodon buffed more than anyone, it's my fave animal, but not like this

these buffs are absurd

increased bite force, complete removal of the timing mechanic, a venom indicator that makes... zero sense

it doesn't need any of these, and they only serve to reduce troodon's actual skill element over actually make it better

[random stump]

It would be interesting if carnos charge became a bit more locational
tail hits just do half damage and dont knock things over
head hits do the obvious 1.5x (excluding pachy) and could cause a concussion (Not a head fracture)
furthermore head hits on stuff like stego wouldnt result in the carno being stunned (Stego wouldnt get concussion)
bodyhit is normal
leg hit is knockdown or something

[latent bay]

Making Carnotaurus' charge actually require accuracy beyond hitting your target initially would be great

Also heads are 1.5x afaik

[random stump]

body hit would be the current effects carno has, leg hit would only knockdown if the creature was smaller then you by a significant margin*

so a body hit on a stego would knock carno on its rear, same with a leg hit because obviously stego isnt gonna care about that

[unborn iris]

That's pretty much how it works, except you get stunned instead of getting knocked down hitting stuff too big

[random stump]

technically it would be a nerf to carno because about half of most of the things that it eats hitboxes no longer result in a full damage knockdown

but also a buff because if you charge a stego head you get some funny damage without getting 1 tapped when you fall on the ground

[torn egret]

Lol this happens all the time.
I would love to see some more dynamic movement for Hypsi dryo and troodon.
I jumped a stego, hopped off, but caught an imaginary wall on one of the other stegos legs in a bush, and couldn't turn. Instant death.

I see so many players hide in bushes and start spamming attacks it's frustrating.
TBH, I want to see less DPM from most of the other Dinos. Slower/longer timing between attacks, mostly for carnivores and stego. Because I've been whacked and grabbed because spamming the attacks and relying on desync is the most effective way of dealing with omni and troodon especially.
Been on a troodon dive, and it feels so weak now, (Mostly because few people play it and as a solo, you need to rely on baby dinos or get lucky and find a teno

[neon willow]

Yes I agree. Troo needs help, but if it had a higher bite force, there'd be no reason to use it's venom mechanic. And some of the points sound like their taking ideas from dilo venom (hallucinations, spasms)

And actually I really like the timing element required and how you have to coordinate in order to be dangerous

[torn egret]

I think if troodon poision at least obstructed some view range it would help

[neon willow]

Otherwise you give a dino that takes 45 mins to grow the ability to take out 3 hour grows really easily which is unbalanced on its own

[neon willow]

Yeah I think so too. Not to plug, but checkout my suggestion about that exact thing in #general-feedback and let me know what you think

I think also it would be nice QOL if the troo's camera wasn't literally in the grass as well...

I'm of the opinion that what the game renders on the screen is not literally what your dino can physically see, but rather a combination of senses resulting in a "region of awareness" of your surroundings

Yes troo is short and likely would see just grass, but it's hearing and smell and sensitivity to movement in its surroundings would compensate to let it know where other dinos are nearby to a certain degree, allowing the player to "see" where the other dino is relative to them

In other words, short dinos like troo, hypsi, etc should just get a proportionally higher camera angle so they can see

[torn egret]

Im ok with the fg cam placement (baby could use some love), but its scent should also pickup envenomed targets, and tracking should be better. That alone would help troodon immensely. Maybe add 2 more stages of venom for larger targets, but the fact that a troodon can so easily be countered by hiding in a bush and spamming attacks is annoying.

[coarse blaze]

I so badly want deinos to be changed (honestly just nerf it's stamina into the ground for lunging/holding in my opinion) but I think on Gateway if you get grabbed it's your fault given all the safer drinking spots.

[golden coral]

I thought there was an outline on the envenomated target already, more clear the higher the stage?

[torn egret]

but youy cant smell them or see them on the compass

so easy to lose in forest

[stark knoll]

Yea, but afaik it doesn't show through any foliage

[torn egret]

If they did that it would help.
But troodon can't pounce in bushes 😐

[neon willow]

They need some way to see through foliage to a limited extent for sure. They basically can't hunt at all in forests because their view is nothing but leaves even as adults (babies are also impacted by grass). Means that troo/teno trail cam from a while back could never happen in game

It would also be cool if number of stages of venom to get the full effect is dynamic, dependent on target weight. Maybe a baby stego should have 2-3 pounces to reach stage 3, while a FG stego takes 6-7 pounces to get to stage 3

[golden coral]

Honestly, troodon venom should be limited to about 2T or so, no reason for them to hunt bigger things really. But yes, both cera bile and troodon venom (and dilos) should scale with size/weight of the target.

[neon willow]

That's fair. Even for a full group 2T is more than enough food

Although I do worry a little about the isle's "bigasaurus complex" as someone else aptly calls it-- if everyone wants to play the biggest, most combat capable dinos, the smaller dinos are going to starve and/or be very boring during to hunting AI, and that will eventually cause small dinos to be rare

The smaller roster needs to be viable and fun, to encourage playing them, but also they need enough variety of food that they're less sensitive to biased playing of larger species, which we already see in stego, deino, carno, and cerato

[golden coral]

That's because there's nothing else fun to do, we all know this. And there's no stakes to surviving, so why play something that can survive better and easier.

[hasty coyote]

Plus a lot of our current smalls are lacking mechanic or are underwhelming. Dryo and hypsi are missing major mechanics, pachy is weak atm, and troodon could use some qol changes.

[tall bronze]

I think things like Sanctuaries are gonna help a fair bit for small creatures. Small predators (like Troodon) will be able to consistently find prey around their own size here and they won't have to worry about the bigger guys messing stuff up. Also means smaller creatures/juveniles will generally encounter each other a lot more, leading to more fun and fair encounters instead of "woops, came across an adult, guess I'll die"

So you and your two Troodon buddies can go bullying juvies around in the Sanctuaries for example.

[neon willow]

That's true. "Whoops, came across an adult, guess I'll die" happens a LOT right now and it's kind of soul sapping. Leads to risk adverse playing (which equates to "sit in bush and watch YouTube until you don't die if a random adult sees you"

[tall bronze]

It's made even worse because of Spiro having Center as it's only hotspot. Herbi juvies are better off, but carnivore juvies need to scavenge....but everyone is at center, which means people die at center, meaning the only meat to scavenge is prolly at center.

Unless you get really lucky or find a few AI.

[neon willow]

I'd argue the stakes are too high right now, actually. Which is kind of paradoxical 😂 but the biggest problem with playing small size creatures is anything remotely big is extremely unforgiving to fight. Take troodon. It's only 45 minutes but it is 1-shot by EVERYTHING. you make a single mistake? Dead. The internet lags? Dead. Server stutter? Likely dead. And if you die you lost 45 minutes. Only takes a few times before you decide to go play something that isn't instant reset when things beyond your control happen. Not to mention juvies basically just being free lunch for any adults that see them because they universally run so slow. Why play anything small if you're nothing more than food to make the apexes fun to play?

[neon willow]

That's true. And that feeds back, because juvies are almost trivial to catch as an adult, so if you can't find larger items? Just kill a bunch of juvis until full

[golden coral]

I have to kind of disagree, 45 min is well, not much to complain about for the power you do wield (then again, I main stego, growth time averages 5-6 hours for me). But it could also be that people have this "pvp" mindset of "must go for the biggest thing". Yes, troodon dies easily (assuming it gets hit, what with how safe it really is, if there weren't bugs or lag issues), but troodon is also very tiny, even a dryo is "big" compared to it, not to mention what a pachy is. Even a pachy at 300 kg is a sizeable prey for a few troodons, and I don't know if it oneshots them at that point honestly.

[hollow canyon]

really? Juveniles in Evrima are incredibly survivable compared to just about any other dino game.

imo they outright need a nerf, their stamina is absolutely ridiculous

[neon willow]

But, juvi (not sub adult) is usually too slow to escape any adult that is reasonably interested in killing you. Sure it has lots of stamina, but that doesn't matter if you're close enough that the adult can make you out against the grass. Maybe I'm a really bad juvi player, but I don't think I've ever escaped an adult of any dinosaur that has decided to send me to the character select screen

And, as you have pointed out, juvi stamina is ridiculous and should probably be nerfed

Okay I think I did it as a baby deino running from an adult deino by jumping out of the water (because adult deino has absolutely atrocious stam and isn't that fast on land, either)

But baby stego, teno, and cerato all really suffer because they cannot outrun most adults even with their stam. And high stam is part of what enables troo/Utah players to spawn in and participate in their pack's fight even after death

[halcyon elk]

On topic of juvies. Would it be reasonable for apex juvie meat to have increased giving of nutrients? As an incentive to kill juvie apexes before they get too big.

[neon willow]

Okay, but then look at lower mid tiers like cerato or teno. I don't know how many people are going to play them when they could choose rex or allo or literally anything that isn't a 1-tap if an apex gets a hold of you. Not many people want to spend 3 hours growing only for it to die in a half second. I'm pretty sure troo do get 1-shot by pachy - they weigh 60 kg, and are 1-shot by almost the entire roster.

[golden coral]

Because it would overall be easier to survive as one, for one thing. Cera has great scent range, and the body buff and vomit "lock" and all, and most likely can avoid things like apexes quite well. Granted allo might be a problem, but it remains to be seen how it ends up working. And yeah, full grown pachy one shots a troodon, but I was talking about a half grown pachy.

[neon willow]

Honestly I kinda think the major control on apex population should be starvation. Juvi gameplay becomes incredibly frustrating if you've got a target on your back (and apexes already do-- in legacy people go after juvi rexes like they're Snickers bars). Plus, look at stego- killing the juvis doesn't prevent them from having an excessive adult population, which is when they're most upsetting to game balance. Just means the babies get smart about playing where no one can find them until they're big enough to no longer be a popular target

[halcyon elk]

But the thing is. And especially what I want for apexes. You really can't do that without risk of starving yourself.

[neon willow]

Idk, I don't really like that the difficulty of any playable is hardest at the least power. It should be the opposite - if you're able to maintain an adult, that in itself is the accomplishment. Plus, with such long grow times, rexes will already need to leave hiding and get food multiple times in the way to adulthood. I don't think we need to punish them more

[halcyon elk]

Likely adult apexes should be somewhat easy to maintain. Harder than most. But it makes it much more rewarding for those who apexes are aimed to attract. (High experience players)

[neon willow]

Ah I see. Well idk, although ptera is by far the most survivable animal in the game, not many people play it. I don't think easy to survive as is what most people use as their main selection trait for dinos. Because, sadly, easy to survive tends to correlate to boring gameplay right now, and because for better or for worse fighting is really the only not boring thing to do right now. Also, while cerato is easily pretty survivable as an adult (honestly should probably get nerfed slightly), juvi is the exact opposite. It is slow enough it is an easy meal for every carnivore, plus most herbivores can easily throw down. If you die 2 hours into your cerato grow 2-3 times (back to 0% growth after 4-6 hours of effort), that is incredibly demotivating and honestly kept me from playing cerato for a very long time

[golden coral]

Well, you kind of answered your own point. Survival is really easy right now in general, and on top of that, there's no reason to survive, so everyone just plays for pvp. But if this changes, you'd probably see more people choosing the smaller stuff, not because it can do pvp very much, if at all, but precisely because they might not need it to stay alive in the first place.

How long does it take to grow a cera on perfect diet? Last I tried, it didn't feel too bad at all, but maybe it's changed.

[neon willow]

I haven't timed it, but I think it is about 3 hours. The wiki I'm looking at says 2.5 (but doesn't mention what diet, and may be out of date somewhat). Perhaps it isn't bad in comparison to apexes, but... its still a 3 hour time sink assuming you do everything perfect and get lucky. Which... because of how much it eats, and the fact that 90% of its diet foods are player only characters... is actually quite hard since you have to grow in high traffic areas to get that perfect diet

although maybe I am biased slightly because my last cerato grow I kept running into the same pachy group (I am pretty sure they had tag hacks because no matter how well I was hidden away, after less than 5 minutes they would track me down and bonk me again

Hacking though is its own separate issue

[golden coral]

Maybe it was easier for me, I just waited until starving, found bones, filled up perfect diet, and then waited for what did not feel too long until I got big enough to be out and about

[neon willow]

and idk, as a design philosophy I don't know that I like even mid tiers kind of soft locking casual players out because if you have a few hours, you can only try maybe once to do a grow

[hollow canyon]

yea juves specifically are a bit weak in terms of speed but idk, I haven't really had issues as a juvie tbh

[hollow canyon]

sure

[neon willow]

bones are in my experience kind of hard to find these days depending on server. you can but its a 50/50 whether you can find enough to fill up

[dusky surge]

@vague steeple what exactly are you trying to suggest? To remove the player component from the multiplayer game?

[vague steeple]

No, to go back to the drawing board regarding the makeup of the world they are creating. They have to be more proactive in creating the balance the seek, not leave it to us.

[dusky surge]

that's exceptionally vague though

[stark knoll]

Your suggestion is just "start over"?

[dusky surge]

and an insane undertaking

[stark knoll]

Like, which part of it is the problem? The playables? The map? The ai? The diets?

[dusky surge]

i don't understand what fundamental flaws need to be addressed with going back to the drawing board

[vague steeple]

No, not start over

[dusky surge]

we're getting a brand new map designed to promote active gameplay beyond brawling in the centre of the map, many changes are being made to actively dissuade risky and careless fights (wounds and the new stamina regen changes coming next patch), AI dinosaurs are being worked on a ton to populate the world (as much as I'm not a fan of it, it's what's happening), so on

like, what fundamental flaws need addressing? your feedback is insanely vague and just says that something is inherently wrong without telling us what it is

[vague steeple]

100 player servers will continue to be Center-focused, meat grinders, wasting the vast majority of the island. No matter how many times they remake islands, the same problems persist.

100 players with current herb/carni ratios will need easily 200 full sized dino AI to help force a balance the ecosystem so we can actually take advantage of all the other content they intend to add with any lasting, meaningful significance. Until then, they might as well stop making these massive islands and give up on the other content, most won’t really experience it on any significant level.

[dusky surge]

I personally cannot agree with requiring 200 full-sized dino AI

[stark knoll]

So, what's your feedback/suggestion supposed to be?

[dusky surge]

not only is that... a LOT for a server to process, it's just going to make the island feel more artificial to me. Ironically, I think if The Isle was mostly filled with AI, I'd find the island more lifeless and artificial than I do now with its empty openness.

Complex Dino AI that accurately replicates human behaviours and doesn't act in a way that is either too predictable or too unfair would honestly be better off just being additional server slots, as the processing power of the server to actually have those AI exist and act in such a realistic fashion would be almost as, if not more straining than another few server slots

i also feel you're only accounting for the fact that Spiro is designed like utter ass, and only some areas of the map are deemed playable, while most others are devoid of basic resources like food and water (forests are often completely uninhabitable, and any mountainous terrain is so extreme it will more often than not just kill your animal)

people gravitate to centre, not because they want a fight, but because it is the only place to actually play the game (find food, interact with other players, meet groupmates, all centre)

on a map that encourages exploration (and with the addition migration, somewhat necessitates it), you'll find a far more evenly distributed population

[vague steeple]

I’ve played on every map since Thenyaw. They all end up with the bulk of dinos at Center or some other POI or another.

Players will gravitate to where other players congregate

[dusky surge]

tbh, i dont think a single one of those isle maps has been good

i'd argue the isle has basically never had a good map

spiro is one of the worst of the worst, but it's no exception

dondi doesn't do map design, Gateway is the first ever time an actual full-time level designer, specialised in designing levels, is designing a map

migrations also exist to outright invalidate the idea of simply sitting in one PoI and never moving

you do that and you get malnourished and/or starve due to the lack of viable food from standing in one place

you HAVE to move

all of these maps have many similarities.

• Lots of dead space where nothing really happens, or there's zero reason to venture there. Most of V3 and Spiro suffers from this a great deal
• A single core PoI that is either visible from a great distance across the map or is inherently the most accessible, causing players to naturally gravitate towards it. Centre and Twins come to mind for this
• Little to no landmarks, with what little landmarks that exist being near these aforementioned hotspots, making them easier to access. Gateway has several large landmarks such as a mountain and several massive human structures visible from a great distance, allowing players to maintain their bearings on journeys.
• Overuse of terrain that punishes traversal such as sheer cliffs and mountains. This is a huge issue in both Spiro and V3. V3 was almost impossible to move through, as the mountains presented a legitimate death hazard to anyone trying to scale them, and there are a lot of arbitrary sheer surfaces and cliffs on Spiro.
• Biome diversity is little to none. All of the prior maps essentially boil down to plains, forests, coast, swamp, that's it. The coasts and the swamp are far less utilised than the aforementioned plains and forests. They're novel, but serve no greater purpose and barely cause enough of an impact to matter. Biomes on Gateway are more diverse, but also serve enough of a significant gameplay change to make them worth engaging with.
• How animals interact with the environment provided is limited. In legacy, the limited controls essentially meant all animals existed with the same moveset, but with different stats. In Spiro, the map punishes experimenting with new envrionments. All water sources are the same mundane river system (besides the swamp), and forests are not designed well for potential forest creatures (especially arboreal) to exist.

There's more to mention, such as migrations, but this is a rundown of why this issue has existed for so long.

[vague steeple]

No map will solve it, we don’t need much to use any area of a map. The devs choose to limit access to what we need to spread out…or more accurately, they severely limit how long we can live with what we find…so the whole play experience is the cliche of “do this before the timer runs out” plot…over and over. The ecosystem they have created can’t support any other experience.

[dusky surge]

if no map can solve it, nothing can

AI certainly won't

a good map will help far more than any AI

if anything, a wide diversity of dinosaur AI just encourages more people to play bigger, badder carnivores

as their stomach needs are met by large AI, and players can be an ignored element of the equation

[vague steeple]

The map can’t fix it because the maps aren’t the problem.

[dusky surge]

they absolutely are

the map is literally one of the worst elements of the game atm, bar none

i truly believe that Gateway will be one of the most meaningful updates in the history of this game

because it's the first ever map that isn't actively bad for what it attempts to do

[vague steeple]

It won’t…no matter how well made it is.

[dusky surge]

why?

what else is more important, because I guarantee, you can add a thousand AI and none of your problems will be solved

in fact, they'll only be compounded. Less diversity, more players fighting in the centre of the map as large apex creatures, more needless fighting, more artificial feeling gameplay

[vague steeple]

Dinos don’t persist off the map, the persist of the resources on the map. It could be a flat plain and some trees. As long as food and water is available, Dino’s can strike out and thrive anywhere on it.

[dusky surge]

And water, for instance, is a resource, which Spiro has done very poorly. Also, forests simply are difficult to traverse and navigate, making that also very poorly designed for moving out and exploring

[golden coral]

So what is the actual problem then? And how should it be solved?

[dusky surge]

Adding more AI just adds more resources for me to grow my big animals faster and get right to the good part where I get to the bloodbath in centre

[vague steeple]

That’s fine, but you get to do it in all corners of the map…then choose to come to center for a specific activity.

[dusky surge]

but that's no more engaging, that's already what people do, you've just made it easier

[vague steeple]

Build out a robust ecosystem that can support the players first, we will interact with each other regardless…just like coming back to center after getting big and strong.

[dusky surge]

but how do you define a robust ecosystem

more creatures are being added, which in turn expands the ecosystem

more diversity = more animals choosing different locales to make their home

the beipi won't live in the same place as a herrera, and a herrera won't share a home with a carno

[vague steeple]

Sufficient biomas to support the expected Herb and Carni populations. Don’t build beautiful and elaborate islands that are essentially bio-deserts disguised as lush forests.

[dusky surge]

You need a challenge to go with the game. You cannot simply throw endless food and expect the game to be considered a challenging survival experience

[vague steeple]

Allow dinos to persist longer on the resources that are available if infrastructure can support more bio-mass, by increasing calorie density.

The challenge will always be the other players…always. That will never go away, never be an issue because our interactions are still inherently PvP

[dusky surge]

it's not an ecosystem if all is swell

food cannot be expected to be plentiful and accessible at all times

to do so simply bolsters populations of super-predators with no one picking the lower-class characters, as all apex creatures are as sufficiently fed as smaller animals

it's literally why we have so many deinos, because they have such readily accessible food in the form of corpses, rot, bones, and fish

[vague steeple]

Plus, the required bio-mass need not be so much that we never have to worry about hunting. You can keep bio-mass and/or calorie density below what’s required to sustain the population, that creates just enough pressure to encourage hunts.

The goal isn’t to give us push over AI prey everywhere…that’s partially why I encourage the use of full size dino AI.

[dusky surge]

that's still easier food

[vague steeple]

Not necessarily…and even if it was…would that keep you from going to Center after you get big and strong?

[dusky surge]

unless you expect AI to be super-competent while also attempting to understand some of the more complex and indepth mechanics of the animal and not being either
A: A predictable meatsack
B: An unfairly punishing challenge

You will likely either have easy food, or something to never engage with

[vague steeple]

Of course not, not if that’s the activity you crave.

[dusky surge]

You're still under the assumption that Gateway is remotely like anything else. Migrations inherently make it impossible to do things like sit around and fight to your hearts content in a single area on the map

[vague steeple]

If you don’t want the prospect of predictable AI, then hunt players. It’s not like you have to hunt AI.

[dusky surge]

you can throw as many lifeless robots on the island as you want, but if that island is poorly designed, people will not want to engage with it

[dusky surge]

if there's 200 AI and 100 players, and the players are hiding and growing in secret, while the AI roams around and calls so carnivores can find them easier, it's very unlikely I will be hunting anything human

especially if the AI is simply easier, why run the risk of hunting players?

[vague steeple]

That is not true. We will engage on whatever maps they put out. We’ve been doing it for years.

The idea you can’t find dinos growing “in secret” is a myth. The problem is, we have rarely been afford the time to readily hunt other players growing on the outskirts of high population areas like center.

[dusky surge]

because the map doesn't allow it

because the map will not support either carnivores or herbivores that leave the safety of centre

because it is poorly designed

AI will not make the game better

I truly believe the current AI we have is literally perfect for what it sets out to achieve

[vague steeple]

That’s not true either, the resources available..or more accurately, the lack of resources present on any of the maps don’t allow it. It’s because every map had been a bio-desert.

[dusky surge]

And you've already jumped to the conclusion that Gateway will be too

Legacy had PLENTIFUL food, so much in fact it literally spawned near carnivores when they got hungry

The "bio-desert" concept is a myth when you account for legacy's extremely forgiving method of providing meals

[vague steeple]

I have yet to see any indication the number of AI will increase(possibly due to infrastructure limitations), or that the devs will extend hunger times/increase calorie density to allow greater exploration of the island without being under constant duress.

[void wing]

Hopefully because finding AI atm is nothing but hell

[dusky surge]

i personally don't see a need for AI to increase, but that's just me. I certainly don't agree with the idea of them being full-grown dinosaur sized, the concept of a >1 ton meal from merely hunting AI sounds so dull

[vague steeple]

I hunted way more players in Legacy. The AI made it much more viable to roam the island in search of larger player meals.

[keen plover]

I mean I don't think you could even starve on legacy if you knew what you were doing

[dusky surge]

which ironically was one of legacy's greater faults. There is no true survival element of punishment for poor decision making

you literally got fed for existing

[slim dragon]

So I read the whole conversation, and that feedback is just an elaborate way of saying "add more AI I can't find food as big carnivore" ?

[keen plover]

I mean the only creature that struggles outside of Center / NW is Carno.

[dusky surge]

i dont see a game where all animals can peacefully exist regardless of size and population numbers as a functional ecosystem, I see it as the opposite. You allow superpredators to exist without competition in high numbers, and make the concept of playing smaller, lesser creatures less appealing by justification of "you literally can grow to full as anything in any situation, so why bother with the lesser creatures"

[vague steeple]

You had a much harder time starving in legacy, legacy just made the process annoying since you had to constantly chase down AI instead of being able to just roam in search of better meals. The hunger time was too short.

[dusky surge]

all animals struggle to an extent (herbivores can scarcely find diets and due to the fact that literally all creatures either spawn/exist in centre, it's far too rare to get a good meal outside the hotspot)

[dusky surge]

legacy made the process simple, how was it annoying

you sat still, AI came over, you bit it, it died, you got a good meal

[keen plover]

Omni can live off on boar for example. Cera can scent and has a slightly higher hunger time to find players on the 'outskirts'. Ptera is ptera and troodon can live off any ai.

[vague steeple]

What makes you think peace would reign because we are better fed…or more accurately, had longer satiation times between meals?

[slim dragon]

I'd like to have more AI in the game
But only Animal AI and maybe some specific dinos like big sauropods
I think an ecosystem where modern animals are plentiful but giant dinos are rare makes sense
But that would also require AI to be buffed so it's not free meals

[dusky surge]

peace doesn't need to reign

why do we need a primarily peaceful island?

[vague steeple]

You said it yourself, get big and strong and go to Center…you ain’t going to center to play cards…

[dusky surge]

because i'm running off your hypothetical situation

one which fails to account for the many changes Gateway provides to this formula that inherently improve it

you exist stuck in the concept that the map will always be bad, people will never change and the reason everyone exists in centre is not because the map literally kicks you down with boring nothingness for exploring, but rather because players aren't hunting enough robots

spiro exists in a perpetual state of monotony, so people do what's easiest because there is never a single good reason to go anywhere beyond the easiest point

migrations provide objectives to move towards, keeping players moving and active

weather changes the environment in such a way that you cannot predictably expect the same outcome from each day and modifies your survival style

sanctuaries provide locales for juvis and small creatures to actually exist away from the constant killing spree that is main hotspots like Spiro's centre

Gateway's spawning system means each creature is spawned not in the same 5 locations, but rather in many unique zones dependent on lifestyle and preferred biomes, preventing mass spawning in places like centre

[vague steeple]

I haven’t seen a bad map, I’ve liked them all. Some better than others, but the only issues I have with a map is if water is too sparse….that hasn’t been an issue is a long time.

Players who want to explore will do it more if they don’t fear starving in 30mins. Players will hunt players just as much, but will hunt so called “secertly growing” players even more because they have the time to seek them out as they roam more of the map and stumble across them. People who enjoy Center “content” will still do it.

[slim dragon]

But there is nothing to explore in Spiro

[dusky surge]

you are allowed to like maps, but they objectively are bad, especially Spiro

like no hate for liking a map, but that doesn't make it good

[distant torrent]

@random ridge adding rarely played dinos like dryo in as ai won’t be very good. if a playable isn’t being played, there’s a reason for it and it needs to be addressed and fixed. I can’t stress enough how playables like dryo need so much love

[random ridge]

you can adjust them and give the game a more immersive sight. I saw a herd of 10 ceras cross water at some point and it looked amazing. sad is, that it was only 1 time and i never met any herd in this size anymore. instead you have boar, goats, frogs and chicken AIs on land. not really immersive at all, feels more like a "we need to have something a player can hunt" AI

[dusky surge]

AI dryo would be awful imho

[distant torrent]

packs of 10+ ceras shouldn’t be happening. you’d see large herbivore herds if things such as cera, omni, and carno weren’t so dominating compared to the rest of the roster

[dusky surge]

I really, really want dryo to be good, not AI

also there's no universe where adding humans is a bad idea

[distant torrent]

I don’t want any kind of dino ai on officials tbh

[dusky surge]

an escape from tarkov style gameplay loop with horror/survival elements and playable dinosaurs

FPS survival is extremely popular as a genre

humans will be undoubtedly successful and attract new players

[halcyon elk]

Well of course, but they better have some skills if not the dinosaurs are far easier to grow and survive as

Especially with a burgeoning human population. Human killers will be rampant

[dusky surge]

For real

Humans should absolutely be the greatest challenge

[halcyon elk]

Humans even with their genetic enhancements are still very much out of their depth here. Especially with Gen 1 and the eyeless. Which I am guessing are experts of human annihilation

[dusky surge]

troodons, herreras, omnis, carnos, quetz

ideally, humans should be fearful of attacking due to the sound and smell

[halcyon elk]

Can't forget rugops.

[dusky surge]

i really want humnans to be hard punished for firing their weapons

to the point that it becomes ill-advised

a final resort

[halcyon elk]

True, limited ammo

[dusky surge]

that, and LOUD gun

[halcyon elk]

True

[dusky surge]

and apparently gunpowder has a unique scent

that's easy to track once it's set off

so shooting a gun will make you a target

[halcyon elk]

And also you got one less bullet to deal with whatever is coming for you

[dusky surge]

yea

[mortal tundra]

@compact bolt Carno charges teno. Gets stopped because it's too big. Teno kicks in face multiple times. Carno gets to half health. Carno dies of starvation. Without being able to knock stuff down it can't kill bigger creatures like tenos, but maybe if it's charge just stopped what you suggested could work.

[distant torrent]

carno is supposed to be a small game hunter, not a medium game hunter. a single carno should get absolutely stomped by a single teno if it tries it

2 should be barely doable imo unless the teno isn’t very good, and 3 should be recommended. (carno can choose all of its fights due to its speed. a teno can’t, so it has to be able to reliably defend itself)

[halcyon elk]

Imo teno should be the maximum carno should hunt.

[distant torrent]

teno needs to be an absolute handful for carno

[neon willow]

@fallen root I like the premise, but both the initial damage and the final damage are way too high, especially for something that should be "easier to land than a bite". Carno should not ever, short of a headshot, do anything close to apex damage values. Now-- let me suggest some adjustments:

Charge at its base level does 50 DMG (less than bite), BUT it also staggers small (< half carno height) dinosaurs. That gives time to get a bite in as well, usually, especially with a buddy.

At max of 5 seconds, carno should do 300 DPS (higher than current by 50), and additionally staggers medium (< half of carno's weight, but smaller than carno itself) dinosaurs, and knocks down small dinosaurs. Large (> carno weight) dinos take damage as usual, but are not stunned at all.

Finally, the carno's turn radius is dependent on speed/charge-- at minimum it turns slightly better than at a run, and at Max it turns worse. This rewards more difficult attacks with better effects

Charge utility is really the stun, not the damage.

If you get knockdown on a target, if you're fast you can turn around and bite 1-2 times in addition before the stun is over

[fallen root]

I agree that my numbers are a bit high, however 50 for a start feels too low. Why I picked 150 is because if you hit a dinosaur point blank, in my mind you are in range to land a bite, so why go for the charge and use stam when you can just bite the dinosaur and deal more damage. I also got the high damage values from the fact that carno used to be able to one shot a utah to the body. To keep it short (as I am going to clarify more when my cooldown is over), I like the 300 cap more than 500

[distant torrent]

300 is like 50 less than its current damage and still way too high for an attack that leaves its victim defenseless and locked in an animation, especially for the accel it’s going to be getting

that’s like the damage of a cera’s charged bite or around it

[neon willow]

The reason for the charge is to stun (that and better turn means better keeping up with smaller targets). The stun allows higher damage by being able to turn around and bite. Otherwise, you should be using bite if you are point blank range and don't have time to charge up imo

[neon willow]

Is it? I thought they lowered it slightly to 250 in a recent update. Oh well. In any case, I permit it as max damage solely because of the adjustments to agility at max chargeup (making it significantly less agile than normal running) and because frankly I was aiming for a middle ground-- the original suggested value of 500 is wayyyyy too high

[distant torrent]

was it? last I’ve heard it was around 350 and I haven’t heard about any nerfs to it

[neon willow]

If the carno could instantly do that or had a charge turn radius of anything less than the diameter of the earth, then the charge damage should be lower

[neon willow]

its possible.... I know its around 300ish

[hasty coyote]

Still 1-shots Omni to the head as far as I know, that requires it being at least 300

[neon willow]

ah gotcha

[hasty coyote]

However, my main issue with this suggestion is that it makes charge is incredibly telegraphed and easy to dodge, while also forcing carno to BURN through stam for the best effect. Essentially, this makes it borderline useless against its main prey: smalls.

[neon willow]

that's a good point

[fallen root]

Which is why you turn faster in ram ^

My main problem with everyone saying that carnos charge should really only be used as a stun mechanic is this. Which would hurt more? Getting bit by a decently large carnivore that hard a weak-ish (ish) bite for it’s size, or getting your a** bulldozed by a 1.8 ton creature that also has horns on it’s head, moving around 52kmh ?

[thin mantle]

Doesn’t matter it works better as a stun mechanically and lessons it’s balancing issues

For example, getting your ankles bit by a deino should technically do less damage than lunge because it’s biting a less vital part of the body

Lunge does less damage than bite regardless

Same as Cerato and charge bite

Charge bite doesn’t actually…..exist in reality

But because it’s a higher commitment attack with a windup it hits over twice as hard

[fallen root]

I mean not really. When crocs drag things under the water they tend to not bite as strong in order to conserve energy. So in theory a deinosuchus going for a full on bite would hurt a whole lot more than the grab

[thin mantle]

Right but if you’re a deino lunging something as small as a Pachy grabbing it’s entire torso….

Why not instantly kill it

[fallen root]

Why not? Stat wise you can one shot a pachy with a bite

[hasty coyote]

I also noticed there’s no knockdown threshold change, so if it’s agile enough to chase smalls, there’s no chance that a teno or cera could dodge it. So now those 2 get pulverized by charge.

I still think the best way to do it is remove the stam cost and give like 2-4 charges like dryo dodge that take 1-3 mins to recharge and last about 2-5 seconds. Then nerf the cc thresholds so knockdown max is 900 and stagger max is 1800. Then also lower the damage to about 200 and buff bite to 200. Essentially, charge is now used as a pursuit tool rather than a 1-and-done ambush tool.

[thin mantle]

Because lunge does less damage as to not be used for dps like it used to be when land croc was in the game

It was a balancing issue we already had and removed

Because it made deinos incredibly awkward from a design POV

Another example would be gallis kick if you need another example of a logically higher damage attack dealing less damage than expected

A running Galli kick should realistically hit way harder than a standing Galli kick, but it doesn’t

This is fine

[hasty coyote]

How about pachy alt swing dealing less than an Omni bite?

[thin mantle]

Mhm, which tbf isn’t actually that bad balance wise since it has stun tied to it

It just sucks that you can’t do it while moving

[hasty coyote]

Exactly

[fallen root]

Realistically a galli kick running would be life threatening to a galli. Cool I just kicked this Utahraptor at full force, awesome…. Now what? I am currently on the floor because I no longer have any means to balance myself and I just hit something heavier than me

[hasty coyote]

Plus, carno charge technically isn’t carno running straight into you, it swings its head and knocks you over

[thin mantle]

Well realistically an Omni pounce teno slam Carno charge and Pachy headbutt would also be life threatening to the animal performing it…

So that’s nothing new

A Carno charging into an Omni full force with its nose would crumple its spine and break its jaws

Omni is still a half ton animal

[fallen root]

I’ll disagree on the pachy and omni there but true about carno and teno

[thin mantle]

Omni pounce is quite literally impossible for loads of physics related elements, like the dismount alone is shattering ankles.
Pachy busting a carnos femur in half with its head is also something it wouldn’t be able to do without breaking its neck

[fallen root]

Also if we are being realistic then carno should get a weight buff

[thin mantle]

Balancing realistic and balancing to paleo accuracy are very different tbf

[fallen root]

True

[thin mantle]

Like for example….I don’t think a single animal in the game is balanced realistically….not a single one

[fallen root]

But also paleo accuracy is kinda redundant in a game like the isle

[thin mantle]

Every animal is capable of taking WELL over fatal amounts of damage

[hasty coyote]

We aren’t, that’s the point he’s making. Gameplay requires some stretch to the truth for the sake of balance and enjoyment

[thin mantle]

Tbf you COULD make a very realistically concequential game it would just need a way more complicated and expressive combat system

It’s not impossible that’s just not the route the game took

Blocks would need to a universal mechanic

[dusky surge]

its always be 350. If it were lowered to 250, you'd hear me celebrating

[thin mantle]

It’s 350?! God I thought it was lower and I still think it’s broken

[fallen root]

Which is why I suggested damage ramp up

[thin mantle]

Damage ramp up on a creature that hunts like Carno would be monumentally bizarre

Especially on gateway

[dusky surge]

its horrible, yea

[thin mantle]

Plus damage ramp up actually helps/doesn’t effect the actual broken elements of charge

[hasty coyote]

Especially with the stam cost of ram

[thin mantle]

Which is group fights

Charge us literally a win button if their is more than 1 Carno

Alone it’s pretty bad

[dusky surge]

also a 5 second charge is... insanely long

[thin mantle]

It’s got the most bizarre bell curve of effectiveness

[dusky surge]

5 seconds in a videogame is LONG

[fallen root]

Theoretical stats

[thin mantle]

That’s like 300 ft or so

Maybe not that long

But it’s long

Oh nevermind

It’s almost 300, about 260ish

Math is hard :(

[hasty coyote]

It’s about 83 meters (if charge boosts speed to 60kph) so pretty close.

[thin mantle]

Oh if it’s 60kph over 5 seconds that’s hitting 300 feet

Or at least should be super close

[fallen root]

God I wish discord didn’t have a letter cap as I explain this

[dusky surge]

what i'd do is

• Charge costs zero stam, instead costs an ability charge like dryo's thing. It has two charges and each charge has a cooldown of around 1 minute
• Charge lasts for exactly 2 seconds
• Charge has rapidly increasing damage rampup, starting at 100 and increasing by 100 per second to a maximum of 250, encouraging timing to land specific "sweet spots"
• Charge boosts your speed by 25% while in use, but lowers turn radius

[hasty coyote]

275 feet about.

[thin mantle]

Better but still contradictory to carnos entire identity

But still better if we’re forced to keep charge

[fallen root]

I mean in the game isn’t carno designed to be an ambusher?

[thin mantle]

No

It’s designed to pursue and hunt animals much smaller than it in open areas

The polar opposite of an ambush predator

[fallen root]

Then why does it have god awful stam and bad turning radius?

[thin mantle]

Because of charge balancing, it’s been balanced embarrassingly badly for quite some time

Like Carno hasn’t been in a somewhat reasonable spot in a long time

Because if you counterbalance any part of its kit you make it overpowered or useless….or in the current case both

Somehow at the same time

[fallen root]

But if it’s designed to pursue, then It reasonably should have the stam to do so at the very least

[hasty coyote]

A mix because charge takes too much of its power budget and turning and stam are supposed to be the things smalls can abuse to escape.

[thin mantle]

Agreed

But at the same time it doesn’t need loads of stam because it reaches every target VERY quickly

[hasty coyote]

Give it too much stam and now dryo has to juke out a carno for a LONG time without being hit once.

[thin mantle]

Yep

[fallen root]

Kinda already has to do that ngl

[thin mantle]

Right, which highlights why giving Carno a lot more stam wouldn’t make much sense

It has a bad stamina economy first and foremost

[hasty coyote]

Exactly, a minute is already rough, any longer and it only gets worse.

(Which is another reason I fear the stamina changes)

[fallen root]

Which is why it’s not a pursuit dinosaur in the game

[thin mantle]

No it still is, it’s ability isn’t designed for that tho

It’s ability is designed to do something Carno sucks at

So it’s ability strength has been exponentially heightened whilst it’s base kit has been nerfed

Because Carno is confused…

Especially on gateway plains

Ambushing is going to be nigh impossible

[fallen root]

The ram ability is designed as an ambush attack, knocking the player down to the ground so the carno can turn back and land hits safely

[thin mantle]

Yes, and that’s exactly why charge should be significantly altered

[hasty coyote]

Pursuit as in “I’m going to run straight at you, you have a minute to avoid me or you die” rather than persistence like “I’m gonna walk you down for 5 miles until you have no strength to fight back”

[thin mantle]

Because base Carno doesn’t fit that well at all

Pursuit cheetah style basically

But tall and noisy

[hasty coyote]

Which is why it should be changed, carno is awful for an ambusher.

Very tall, loud startup sound for charge, loud footsteps because big, and lives in an area with basically no cover… perfect for ambushing.

[thin mantle]

Like imagine how bad falcons would be at ambushing if they didn’t have a Z axis to use and were as large as airplanes

That’s Carno rn

[fallen root]

I agree. However I have no saying power. If the devs want carno to be an ambusher, nothing I can do about it. I can come up with ideas that make said mechanic more engaging, but I can’t change it no matter how hard I try. And even when I try, people seem to hate my ideas which I poured hours into making

[thin mantle]

The devs don’t

So that’s covered

[hasty coyote]

However those traits work well with a pursuit hunter. You know it’s coming and it will reach you, but you have nowhere to hide. So you have to try and juke it til it’s out of stam to survive. It is the epitome of the big, scary, evil guy for smalls.

[thin mantle]

If anyone needed more evidence why Carno isn’t intended to be an ambush predator: Please refer to the next update where carnos acceleration is getting Giga buffed

[hasty coyote]

Well seeing as how the only thing with carno that makes it an ambusher is one poorly designed ability, while it’s entire thematic is against it, I have to assume they just need to fix the ability to make it better for its role.

[hasty coyote]

And the fact that the plains on gateway have NO COVER and only a few areas have forest edges nearby.

[thin mantle]

And are actually flat

[dusky surge]

either carnos will migrate to the plains with hills and bushes because they actually can't survive in the actually open plains, or they will just stop being played lol

[coarse blaze]

I still don't quite understand what carno is supposed to do if persued by a group of ceras because they can just keep running forever it seems like.

[dusky surge]

if it can't escape in a single sprint burst to the trees to gain cover and lose line of sight, it dies

[coarse blaze]

[keen plover]

Use the acceleration exploit and never fear them 🥰

Or go full stam diet

[dusky surge]

can they please remove stam diet for the love of god

with mutations on top of it all, it's going to be hell

[coarse blaze]

I got chased NW by a group of 4, the treelines didn't have much cover and I didn't really have the stamina to get there. They chased me until I was empty and I in the end drowned myself out of pettiness.

I have no idea why they have so much stamina

[keen plover]

Stam diets for cera lets them run for over 2 minutes :)

[coarse blaze]

That's disgusting

[dusky surge]

and i forgot to consider the fact that new stamina systems will make it even more oppressive than before

[keen plover]

No stam cost on Cera = win

[dusky surge]

there should be a considerable look into just outright removing all elements of the stam diet

if they want stam to be this vital resource, giving a diet that makes you better at using it will ALWAYS be integral

the new patch will literally double down on how necessary carbs are to exist

more stamina per animal, slower stam regen, stamina impacting core stats like damage

its compounding the issues already seen with carbs

who on god's good earth is going to want NV range and scent range when you can literally avoid debilitating debuffs

[keen plover]

I do wonder how well that diet will do with mutations lol

I mean alone it's outright the best diet build

[dusky surge]

its legitimately bizarre they haven't caught onto this trend

this should be a glaring indication of the fact the diet system is not working as intended

it is not a way to experiment with new builds for different survival strategies, it is a way to win and survive better than everyone else

[keen plover]

:)

[dusky surge]

i hope they mean nerfing carbs

[keen plover]

That was last year 😭

[dusky surge]

lmao

surely they realise the issues

[keen plover]

You'd be blind not to tbf

[dusky surge]

it ACTIVELY ruins the entire system

[keen plover]

Unless they don't play live build games

[keen plover]

Yeah. It's a bad day when you can't get a stamina build

Teno gameplay :)

[dusky surge]

we have entire animals that cannot SURVIVE without this diet

[keen plover]

SE and get carbs but you can't go anywhere else (unless you want to travel back and forth every 10 minutes as lower hunger is a huge risk)

OR

go center and enjoy your protein build, but risk being run down

[dusky surge]

stam regen was already the strongest diet in the game pre-change, but then they went ahead and slapped stamina cost reduction on top of that

[keen plover]

The loop we're in :)

[dusky surge]

and lipids remain entirely irrelevant

because the buffs they provide are so unnoticable

[keen plover]

It would be nice if it had something else with it. I like the idea of being able to be a better night hunter via diets

Or just being able to see threats quicker

[latent bay]

Tenontosaurus in general is a bad day tbf

[coarse blaze]

I had a pretty good fight with omnis as teno the other day, killed maybe 4-5 and still died out via bleed.

[dusky surge]

should've played a good animal like cera

that one has bleed resist so it doesnt get shredded

[coarse blaze]

I did see a cera fight a massive group of omnis and couldn't believe he didn't bleed out. He instead got grabbed via land-shark.

I was really rootin for em too

[plucky aspen]

yeah... raptors V cera, unless its a small cera, cera will win like 90% of the time. they have absurd bleed resist. tbf though, if the raptors can get 25ish body bites XD they can win

[dusky surge]

remember

cera is a better teno
raptor is a better pachy
troodon is a better dryo
deino is a better stego

in short, always play a carnivore, they're better

[hasty coyote]

Also remember, hypsi has no equals, it is the epitome of strength. ||Until we get Herrera but still no climb ||

[winter iris]

@sand hull I can easily hear a carno approaching tbh

[distant torrent]

I think it’s just the isle audio being the isle audio (buggy). 9/10 I don’t hear a carno’s footsteps and only hear the ram activation when it’s too late

[ripe stirrup]

Do the developers read what's written here? Is there any point in telling them how broken everything is?

[golden coral]

I'm pretty sure they do read here, as do QA at times. So yes, there is a point, if you provide good and useful feedback.

[tall bronze]

I've had Punch react to a feedback of my once, so they definitely do pop in now and then 😛

[neon willow]

I think it appears that they don't because they get thousands of very similar feedback all the time, and often stuff like new features or bug fixes take weeks to months to implement and test, so feedback is often delayed

[slim dragon]

@olive aspen Currently hitboxes are divided into 6 parts : head, neck, body, legs, tail base, tail tip.

Also some of the nerfs you suggested for cerato don't make sense. Why would an animal that's designed for clearing up bodies vomit from overeating, or at all ?
Why should only charged bites apply bacteria ?
Also reducing their agility would make them unviable as soon as more bigger creatures are introduced

[dusky surge]

you failed to mention literally halving their stam

which would give them less stam than carno

[slim dragon]

Oh idk how much stam adult cera currently has, haven't managed to grow one yet (I don't AFK in bushes)

[narrow lodge]

Skill issue

[slim dragon]

[dusky surge]

i dont play any animal larger than omni anymore

hell, i barely play omni

its basically just troodon and beipi for me now

[slim dragon]

Why play omni anyways when troodon exists ?

[dusky surge]

its more fun to play troodon so i play troodon

[narrow lodge]

Carno is decent, having fun destroying lone ceras...but the hunger and terrible diet make it far less enjoyable than it could be

Also it moves like a slug, but thankfully they're addressing that

[dusky surge]

i cant play carno

its literally a bastardisation of everything it should be

i wouldnt even call it decent

i think it's a legitimately bad animal

its the worst solo experience in the game, carried exclusively by how well it scales in group and how powerful its charge is compared to most other attacks in the game

[narrow lodge]

It's only decent because it's literally the most powerful animal
we don't count the stego and deino
It's doesn't have anything going for it but it's powerful

[dusky surge]

its not the most powerful, at all

[narrow lodge]

It absolutely is

[dusky surge]

the only reason it appears the strongest is because it's balanced so horribly

every element of it is below what it should be

or is purposely weak

turn radius, running stamina, bleed vulnerability, acceleration, bite damage, bleed damage, resistances, swim speed, swim stamina, stam regen while not resting, trot speed, night vision, hunger rate, diet options, all are bad

it has two good elements. It runs fast (iconic to the animal and obviously should be an element) and it has the second most overpowered attack in the entire game (charge)

[narrow lodge]

Yet it's still the strongest despite everything going against it

[dusky surge]

the first most overpowered attack in the entire game is lunge

[dusky surge]

yea because its balanced like complete ass

it is a HORRID small game hunter atm, it is objectively garbage at it

[narrow lodge]

Then we agree, good

[dusky surge]

what it IS good at is killing teno and cera, and that's it

that's all it can do, because it's terrible

[narrow lodge]

That's true, it's only good at hunting mid size prey which can't out manouver it that easily

[dusky surge]

it is the worst animal in the game equipped with the second best attack in the game

an attack it absolutely does not deserve to have be that powerful

[keen plover]

Seems it might get better at same lane and technically galli hunting with the acceleration buff

[dusky surge]

ideally the charge actually gets nerfed to go with that accel buff or i will literally despise this animal

[narrow lodge]

Tbh, speed is like the most busted stat in the game also. So it gives it a lot more power even if everything else is pretty bad, just because it can run away if doesn't have advantage

[dusky surge]

they keep avoiding the literal glaringly obvious problem

[keen plover]

Just needs instant charge and we've got quite the animal

Teno and Cera just vaporised

[narrow lodge]

bonk
The pachy of the isle, give it back bone break too

[keen plover]

ngl if Carno has instant charge + insane accel, Cera is dead every single time

[dusky surge]

yea, essentially

[keen plover]

You mean stuns? or?

[dusky surge]

unless they nerf the knockdown range and damage (which they absolutely should do)

[narrow lodge]

Cera is dead even without charge is Carno has good Accel, charge is overkill

[narrow lodge]

No, bone break

[keen plover]

Yeah the acceleration means you're never landing the charged bite

[keen plover]

It has that though?

Am I missing something 🤔

[narrow lodge]

Carno?

[keen plover]

OHHHH