balance-feedback-discussion

[keen plover]

It likely will

[random stump]

all of the midtiers have to be plains ambush predators (:

that hunt in large packs

[dusky surge]

i dont even have a problem with this, i have a problem with you calling allo a pseudo-apex

because it's a midtier, but more importantly, pseudo-apex is a stupid-ass title

[random stump]

correct it is a stupid title but it is one that is used so i used it to put into reference what bro is

[dusky surge]

just call it "large" or something ffs, pseudo-apex is dumb as hell

big tier, large tier

[slim dragon]

I wish alberto was like a giant raptor but based on damage
Faster and more agile than most things its size, designed to outskill opponents of similar size with baits and dodges

[dusky surge]

sounds funnier and better than "pseudo apex"

[slim dragon]

And able to kill even bigger things in packs

[frail bobcat]

large tier then

[random stump]

true

large tier gg

[dusky surge]

we already have small tier and mid-tier

[frail bobcat]

not allo, its a midtier

[dusky surge]

large tier is the natural progression

[random stump]

high tier and apex then?

or should mid be average

average tier.

[slim dragon]

I prefer mid tiers because it means allo is mid

[frail bobcat]

midtier is midtier

[dusky surge]

allo is mid as hell frankly

[slim dragon]

The most mid of all mid-tiers

[dusky surge]

honestly most mid-tier animals are like, the most boring animals to ever visit the roster

[slim dragon]

true

[dusky surge]

i actually like plateo more than all of them because at least it's UNIQUE

[slim dragon]

They're either just scaled up smalls or shrunk down apexes
Except sucho I guess

[random stump]

thats the thing right

small tier creatures have tons of unique niches

[dusky surge]

sucho is LARGE baby

[random stump]

a climber, a flyer, pack hunter, pursuit predator, burrower, burrow raider, nest raider etc etc etc

[dusky surge]

i define it as large so it isn't associated with the midtier

[slim dragon]

You mean pseudo-apex ?

[dusky surge]

also i like to imagine that sucho can kick the brains out of any midtier

that makes me happy

[random stump]

midtier has
this one does bleed
and this one breaks bones
and this one does venom
and this one runs far
and this one runs fast
other then that they cant come up with anything

[slim dragon]

Personnally I just see sucho as the biggest carnivore midtier

[dusky surge]

midtier doesn't even have venom

[random stump]

is megalania not gonna be a midtier

nvm that mf a dwarf

[dusky surge]

it's whatever the hell tier is between small and mid

aka the "god i cannot title this goddamn tier" tier

[random stump]

psuedo midtier

[slim dragon]

I feel more effort is made into making the dinos look cool rather than actually giving them a niche

[dusky surge]

i mean that's the only goddamn name you can give it

which sucks because i already hate psuedo-apex

but like, large makes sense as a name for that

the hell is between small and medium? Nothin'

[random stump]

ok so they managed to come up with ONE unique idea for midtiers
(Its just a bigger less social hyena)
it is called cerato

[dusky surge]

here's our mid tier

the coolest animal here is plateo, i stand by this, it is the only animal that does something that nothing else here does

[dusky surge]

bad news

cerato isn't on the same level of allo

[random stump]

diablo isnt a midtier?

[dusky surge]

no its like, smaller than carno

[random stump]

psuedo midtier cerato (:

[dusky surge]

i GUESS that's what it is

because there's literally not a single better title for it

[random stump]

sadly i think they are going to fall into the trap of legacy

where stryaco is just big diablo

and trikke is just big stryaco

dilo is just big troodon

[dusky surge]

this is why i like proto

because proto conforms to its own rules

[random stump]

diablo is just big avaceratops

[slim dragon]

I hope styraco can be on the more mobile side of herbivores

[dusky surge]

i hope cory exists in any official capacity at some point

[random stump]

it will be a diablo clone with higher health and damage stats but lower speed

[dusky surge]

because it's my fave midtier

because i have no goddamn clue how they're going to have it exist

[random stump]

cory wil be a para clone with lower health and damage stats but higher speed

[dusky surge]

cory is nothing like any other animal because no one expects cory

goddamn i mean PLATEO

[slim dragon]

Dondi is like a god
In that no one can understand what he thinks

[dusky surge]

i want PLATEO

[random stump]

apa and bronto are literally the same creature twice
bros are just copy pasting it and giving it a different name

[dusky surge]

blessed animal

i am very excited specifcally for plateo

because i'm certain most of the goddamn world has no goddamn clue what the hell a plateo even is

[random stump]

tbh the herbi psuedo midtiers and midtiers have the most variety tbh
compared to carnis anyways

[slim dragon]

Hopefully it'll be semi-aquatic
So we havea mid-tier semi-aquatic other than bary

[dusky surge]

plateo is my fave midtier because it is such a goddamn curveball

[dusky surge]

i want it to be a semi-aquatic herbivore that DROWNS things like a kangaroo

[random stump]

stegosaurid ankylosaurid ceratopsian gallimimid sauropod
compared to
"same thing with different head and arms"

[dusky surge]

shallow wader drowning niche

[slim dragon]

The roster of semiaquatics is honestly quite sad
Smalls : Beipi, minmi, austro
Mid : Bary
Large : Sucho, cherry
Apex : Deino, spino

[random stump]

i would very much like to see shadowclaw the immortal omniraptor get drowned

[slim dragon]

As many large animals as smalls and mid combined
Only one mid-tier with nothing to really interact with

[random stump]

there are two deinos

chirus and suchus

[slim dragon]

I still stay we should have an animal named deinoraptor and another one named omnisuchus
So it's impossible to tell them apart by name

[random stump]

would making deinos only have 5 minutes outside of water make them waterlocked
or would it need to go further

[dusky surge]

have it that deinosuchus shrivels and dies the moment it leaves water

[slim dragon]

I don't think you can make them properly waterlocked unless you make them die instantly as soon as they get out of water

Deinosuchus tadpole niche

[dusky surge]

either that or have it spontaneously combust, forcing it to retreat to water to put itself out

[slim dragon]

Deino nuclear reactor niche

[random stump]

or make it a large tier and not an apex
because god the thought of deino standing up to rex
or spino
or any of the sauropods
or trike
feels very very very silly to me

i do not see a world where deino takes giga in a 1v1

[dusky surge]

it wont

[halcyon elk]

Giga is swimming across a lake.

[dusky surge]

devs confirmed deino is below those guys

[random stump]

so if blud isnt an apex

why is he
hjiadbnciuasdhnbc aiusdhcn u

[halcyon elk]

It's a pseudo apex.

If we are going by isle terminology

[random stump]

ok
so why cant the psuedo apex die to packs of midtiers

[halcyon elk]

Because of how deinosuchus works. In the water it is prince, yet likely on land its gonna have a bad time.

I can see albertos catching a deino that's on land lacking

[slim dragon]

Because of water
The only way deino can die if it's it's caught far away from water by things strong enough to kill it before it can kill them or return to water

[random stump]

but it walks on land right now
swats away midtiers like flies
and then walks back to water with whatever the midtiers killed
(currently the only midtier is carno i guess?) which i mean now that ithink about it makes it "Fair" because carnotaurus the "sMaLL gAMe hUnTEr"

[halcyon elk]

And carno is essentially the smallest of the mid tiers.

That or cera.

In my mind allosaurus packs or Alberto packs will be a pain for a land dwelling deino.

That and also in water environments most can attack a deino at a certain stage in life.

Bary and sucho, sucho moreso, can kill baby deinos.

Deinocheirus and spino are threats to subadult to adult deino

Reason being sucho has its pelican pouch. And as for spino and Deinocheirus? They're just really big and can dish out a lot of damage.

[torn egret]

I’ve killed plenty of greedy deinos. They have to be on land, but a well coordinated pack can wreck a croc. Even solo cera makes it hell

[hollow canyon]

Wowowowow, what mid tiers? There's only Carno in the game and it's a mid tier devoted to hunting smaller animals. Deino is not on the menu for it.

Put a few of Allosaurs or Albertosaurs around the goddamn croc and that's a whole different story it would need 7 bites to kill either one of them while they'd be attacking it from all sides and punching like trucks unlike the tickles from Carno.

[latent bay]

Wait, what's stopping Suchomimus from beating the snot out of a 75%+ Deinosuchus?

It can't be grabbed if it's any larger than 4 tonnes, which it should be, and it can quite literally throw hands with the crocodile

[dusky surge]

ideally, sucho and deino won't be interacting much at all

[latent bay]

How so? They're both large, territorial (preferably territorial) carnivores, both of which need control of waterways to function efficiently and effectively, both on a combative and non-combative standpoint

[dusky surge]

suchomimus is a shallow wader

deinosuchus is a depths hunter

they should not be interacting much at all

[latent bay]

I cant understand how Suchomimus would be at peak effectiveness with only controlling shallow water

Does it not need to fish in deep water or is Suchomimus not as piscivorous as its relatives?

[dusky surge]

suchomimus just doesn't like deep water (nor should it)

[latent bay]

Will Suchomimus simply

Not indulge on elite fish? If so that doesn't make all too much sense considering this thing is twice Baryonyx' size or more and like what, a singular tonne smaller than Stegosaurus?

[dusky surge]

i dislike the idea of suchomimus being regulated to the same niche as 95% of aquatics

[latent bay]

I absolutely agree, Suchomimus being in shallow water mostly makes sense, but being in shallow water to a point where it'll never interact with Deinosuchus seems wrong to me

[dusky surge]

i mean, if they're intercating, something should be out of its element

[latent bay]

Fair enough, I suppose. Suchomimud shouldn't be actively predating on Deinosuchus nor should Deinosuchus be predating on Suchomimus, but who would, or rather, who should have the upper hand in the 3 scenarios they meet? Those being on land, in deep water, and in shallow water ofc

[hollow canyon]

how in the world can it throw down with Deinosuchus which is most likely faster in the water by a decent margin, a tank with some 3k more hp and hits like a truch with its 500N bites?

Idk what 75% Deino will be like by the time Sucho comes out but last I played the game it would bulldoze something like a Suchomimus.

[hollow canyon]

the answer is simple - 1. Deinosuchus, 2. Deinosuchus and 3. Deinosuchus

[dusky surge]

Also, again, sucho is not even meant to be in the same biome lol

[hollow canyon]

it's larger, more tanky and more powerful

by not a small margin

while Sucho has next to nothing to throw at an animal more massive than itself.

[latent bay]

Claws the crap out of it? If spino can do it, so can sucho

[hollow canyon]

no? If Spino can do it that most certainly doesn't mean a Sucho half its size can do it

[dusky surge]

spino is like 10 tons, sucho is like 5

[hollow canyon]

what kind of ridiculous argument is that? T.rex can destroy it so Albertosaurus will surely do that too?

[latent bay]

If spinosaurus is 10 tonnes then I lose faith in this game's balance of spinosaurids

[hollow canyon]

Spino is bigger than Deino, Sucho is smaller than Deino, Sucho's tiny handsies scratching a gigantic crocodile could at best kill its itch, not the megagator itself

[hollow canyon]

Spinosaurus should be more than that

[latent bay]

it definitely should not

[hollow canyon]

this isn't the irl Spinosaurus, it's the kaiju monster

putting that thing next to Sue-sized T.rex clearly suggested it would be at the very least 10t

[latent bay]

Cool, then Stegosaurus' small thagomizers by comparison to the gator and and Stegosaurus' 2 tonne weight difference should get slammed by the gator

[hollow canyon]

Stegosaurus' thagomizer isn't small

[latent bay]

By comparison to an alligator the size of a T. rex hell yeah it is

[dusky surge]

9 ton spino around

[latent bay]

Better than ten

[hollow canyon]

Idk how in the world you got the idea to compare the THAGOMIZER smacking with 100kN+ to Sucho's tiny handsies

[hollow canyon]

none of those numbers are based on anything, the only one that has a basis in reality is Deinosuchus

[latent bay]

Isnt nova a mod or something

[hollow canyon]

a/ that chart is from ages ago
b/ Nova hasn't been updating them in forever
c/ those values were put there long ago

Spino's weight is based on legacy

where it was 9173kg

[latent bay]

Ah

[hollow canyon]

none of those numbers have any basis in reality as all those animals have different estimates from when that sizechart was created

Sue is 10t now, not 8860kg

Giga is 8.8t for the smaller specimen

Spino is 7.8t irl, the thing in the game would likely be far more massive due to its different anatomy

and if those animals are supposed to be that much more powerful than Deino and Stego those weights don't make much sense

as for Stego itself - is downsized in the game

irl it should be 8t, not 6t

[latent bay]

SpinosaurUS isn't 7.8t, spinosaurinae indeterminate which is probably not even Spinosaurus is

Spinosaurus' biggest specimen is cf. aegyptiacus and that's 6.8t afaik

[hollow canyon]

but even a 6t Stegosaurus would be a tough animal to kill for any big predator because of how enormous the striking power of the thagomizer was

[dusky surge]

this isn't anything like spino irl

realism means nothing against this

[hollow canyon]

the largest specimen you have in mind is NHMUK-16421

it is indeed around 6.8t

I do count MSNMv 4047 as Spinosaurus because the only thing that's for sure is that it's not S.aegyptiacus

could be a different species afaik

[latent bay]

Giga's kinda just 8.8 all around, not just for the holotype afaik

The dentary gets to 10.4 tonnes from Dan but Dan admitted somewhere that the calc is kinda messy, and Fran or Hartman or both said that 8t is just as reliable

[hollow canyon]

I have never seen Dan say that the calc is messy

it's not even his calc

I literally saw him say the opposite yesterday

[latent bay]

I remember someone saying that Dan said that somewhere in the comments of his post

[hollow canyon]

he said the calcs check out and they were done by 3 different people

[latent bay]

Damn someone has been LYING to me

[hollow canyon]

I mean

it's just a dentary

it could be larger than that estimate or smaller than that estimate

we don't know, but this estimate is as good as 7.8t or 6.9t for MSNMv 4047 and NHMUK-16421 Spinosaurs

[latent bay]

Clearly, yeah

[hollow canyon]

they aren't much more complete than that Giganoto dentary

so it's either Giganotosaurus at 10t and Spinosaurus at 7-8t or Spinosaurus is no longer one of the biggest theropods and Giga is some 9t if you want to exclude such fragmentary materials

[latent bay]

I run by the latter

I'm going to push my Torvosaurus > Spinosaurus agenda by any means necessary

[hollow canyon]

Torvosaurus is a better animal anyways and SHOULD'VE been on the roster

but I would consider those estimate tbh, they seem to have a point

when you see the comparison of the holotype and paratype of giganotosaurus dentaries

[latent bay]

Me when Torvosaurus could perform Allosaurus' and Albertosaurus' niches combined into one and cut one or 2 of them out the roster

[hollow canyon]

it's clear that the MUCPv-95 is absolutely gigantic

[hollow canyon]

replace Acro with it

it fits what Acro's supposed to be doing much better

[latent bay]

I think acro is cool

I want acro to stay in because cool, I admit to it

But you're right. You're god damn right

[hollow canyon]

Torvo>Acro

sorry to say but it's true

https://tenor.com/view/search-your-feelings-you-know-gif-5340126

[latent bay]

I cant say I disagree

I do find Torvosaurus cooler anyways

[hollow canyon]

same

amazing animal and it's a megalosaurid and we don't have any of those

[latent bay]

I just have a distaste for Allosaurus

It took strong para away from me

[hollow canyon]

also it had a very comparable biteforce to Acrocanthosaurus and it kind of likely hunted in a proto-carcharodontosaur-ish way so it would really fit as a replacement

coupled with very strong jaws it could choke things out too

I like Allosaurus although Saurophaganax is even better

[latent bay]

though it would make even less sense choking out cama than acro does

[hollow canyon]

it doesn't make sense anyways, just roll with it

[latent bay]

Eh, fair

[hollow canyon]

also - gib:

[latent bay]

A buddy of mine actually came up with an idea I find awesome

Instead of choking things, acrocanthosaurus should just hook into smth with its hands, then press up against the thing and topple the thing over using the acro's mass

It's still goofy but seeing an acro hook into a rex and practically jump on it to knock it over is way too cool for me to ignore

[latent bay]

I'm not big on saurophag, I much prefer megalosaurs and later carchs, but that color palette go crazy

[hollow canyon]

there was a hypothesis that it may have been an early carcharodontosaur but iirc it died

it's an Allosaurid, possibly quite a gigantic one

[latent bay]

Oh damn thought that was still valid, I havent heard anything of it being false yet

[hollow canyon]

nah, as per the person who put that hypothesis forth, it doesn't seem to be correct as per what he said

[latent bay]

Ah

[hollow canyon]

he is supposed to describe this animal though because it hasn't had a good description until now

[latent bay]

Ah

Geuss i gotta mark the calenders or that

[hollow canyon]

it can't come soon enough but it will likely take a while

[torn egret]

So I wanna ask everyone here since it’s a decent place for legit discussion lol.

Is anyone else a bit worried with new editions to the Dino roster causing more misbalance issues with the current roster?
I only ask this because I know personal preference tends to steer what is as players like and want to see. I’m no exception lol.
But with the “BIG BOIS” threatening to join the roster and become the new top dogs, I’m worried about what’ll happen to the Omni, (which I know is the “baby Utah” as I call it), troodon, and Cerato.
Besides the issues with the lack of what I’d call fun herbivores, is anyone worried that servers will get dominated by the Rex, allo, and the rest?

Do you think that as the abilities are now with the current roster will feel underwhelming or mute when the bigger Dino’s join?

[unborn iris]

#isle-discussion message
I think the plan is to create "experiences" or different rosters sets that are designed/balanced to be on the same server, whatever that entails.

[distant torrent]

keeping larger playables unmercifully hard to grow and sustain will be a great start imo. I want to see a rex or other apex once in a blue moon so their presence is something to be in awe about and be terrified about because it should take genuine skill

[unborn iris]

Which makes more sense, with the problems you've hinted at.

[distant torrent]

when rex is added to the current roster, I want it to suffer and starve if there aren’t stegos it can potentially kill

maybe some dumb deinos too lmao

[unborn iris]

Like now with 100 player servers, the idea of 20 hypsis nesting and just vibing somewhere seems cool as hell, but at the same time it's hard not to feel like those are wasted slots while you're running around on a large carnivore.

[torn egret]

What if servers were split between herbi and carni, and some servers with dedicated “roles”?
This is gonna sound cheesy.

Nature naturally limits population. For a predator to survive, there must be an abundance of food for them to survive.
The problem now, is that everyone wants to play the carnivorous Dino because it’s “cool”. But the player base can’t support it because only some Dino’s are fun.
Maybe there is potential for servers to impose Dino restrictions (number of carnos, cera, and herbis, etc) on a few servers.
Maybe allow herbi only servers for those looking to just chill.
Wasted slots when it comes to who is playing what is crazy to think about. Because we assume that every one wants to play everything equally.
I think achievements for the game that are Dino specific could encourage players to try new things, IF they are all equally fun.
As the game is now, it’s a Dino brawl simulator, but I hope the Dino experiences they want to bring will make everything fun.

[unborn iris]

I feel like the balance is going to get interesting with the big carnivores because a lot of the "difficulty" in surviving as one would be the need to eat.

If you make that too easy then you just end up with overpopulation of said big carnivores. Make it hard and it inevitably ends up with periods where you just won't find your prey items, through no real fault of your own.

Which to some extent I don't see as a big problem, but from just carno, it's obvious a big portion of the playerbase do see a problem with it.

[distant torrent]

honestly I agree. though there’ll always be people complaining about the difficulty of larger playables but it’s just a necessary evil to keep their populations in check, or else we get another overpopulation problem like what deino currently has

[hollow canyon]

No, I'm not one bit worried about any of that.

[halcyon elk]

@lament dirge why do you want stego to be nerfed? It's 6 tons of beef with 3 foot long spikes on its tail.

[mystic valley]

I see why, not really a lot can take it on tbf. And it can 1 shot most things in the game.

I like the stego how it is but I definitely see how it can be frustrating to take down

[thin mantle]

Troodon, Omni, Cerato, teno, and other stegos can all take on stego

And I’d argue that’s actually too much

The idea of being enormous and slow is that you’re just not accessible for most creatures to engage

So it’s sorta the whole….point

[random stump]

teno and troodon probably shouldnt be able to
cerato is fine in a large pack cuz its a brawler midtier and omni is fine in a large pack because its a hard punch up psuedo midtier

[cosmic pelican]

Dont forget deino, even just one can beat up a crossing stego pretty badly

2 deinos and its over for the stego

[torn egret]

It is rare af to see something fight a stego and win. Even as a pack taking them. It always results in casualties. I’ve never seen Teno fight a stego, cause it’s damn near impossible for teno to win. Stego v stego is not a good matchup to use to justify how “balanced” they are.
Stegos can cause so much damage to the roster.
Not saying it’s impossible to beat, but it’s a lower skill floor.

[slim dragon]

Both the "unkillability" of stego and the damage it can do to the roster are absolutely negligible compared to the situation deino is in

[golden coral]

Sure, if it's a 1v1 for the teno, but if it has a herd, they can do it. Also stego is nowhere near a problem compared to some of the others that are overtuned (and not just deino at that, new cera vomit is probably going to be an issue)

[thin mantle]

Cerato shouldn’t even be capable of taking a stego down in groups short of 5-6, Cerato is one of the most horrendously optimized animals for fighting stego and is only able to because of vomit….even after the changes that just cripples the stego even in groups of two.
Cerato can hardly be considered a mid tier, I don’t even consider teno in that category myself, but it’s sorta arbitrary since those categories are without consensus, generated by the community. But it feels incredibly bizarre to categorize Cerato and allo together when talking about stego for example.

Once vomit is like….even somewhat balanced Cerato won’t even be touching stego.

[random stump]

actually yknow what
thats fair
tmk cerato isnt even designed around being able to hunt, its just meant to steal other peoples food

[thin mantle]

Yeah you’ve basically got it lol.
Cerato even being a competent predator of a majority of the roster at large is indicative of a design issue with it…

It being a consistent feller of literal apex tier critters is something else entirely

[random stump]

i would expect a cerato pack to maybe bully a deino off a dead teno or something far from water
cerato probably shouldnt be actually killing the deino

[thin mantle]

Depends on the amount of cerato’s. Deinos literal only weakness is that it’s not all that competent on land, so if all the massive animals for Cerato to actually have a chance against deino wouldn’t be a poor candidate

It being immune to vomit does make it difficult

But you don’t need to bait out too many alt attacks before it just sorta dies

But most of the other animals in that size range either kill Cerato instantly or are just too well defended

[torn egret]

Cerato as it is now I think isn’t bad. I’m glad they god rid of vomit lock tbh and I play cerato a lot. I thought it was busted too.

But a solo cerato can still struggle. If it attacks anything in a pack it can be rough.
Can only kill deino if they are dumb lol.

But I think something has to be done about the cerato and rotten flesh. There’s no incentive to actually eat rotten corpses cause it give no nutrition. Bones are great for babies but not adults. Give it more options as a garbage disposal, and I think less people will actively hunt with a cera.

But cera is a decent counter for stego, but a patient stego only needs 1 hit to discourage a cera from attacking more.

[golden coral]

I'd argue vomit lock, at least indirectly, is still a thing. Similar to how pachy stun "solution" was "just add longer timer", but that doesn't fix the "can't fight back or escape" problem. It just mitigates it. Another isssue is the lack of scaling for the bites, it should take far less bites to vomit an omni than a stego, but currently it doesn't. And the whole massive loss of food/water is for some reason a thing, instead of just losing a little every time. And I'm not sure cera should be a counter to much, if it's not supposed to be a good hunter, much less punching up to that level (which it could do to anything it's faster than with current lack of scaling and massive loss of food/water)

[cobalt dagger]

All I did was read this comment out of context but, what if we made it so that once cera 'infects' you, instead of vomitting immediately, it took like 30 mins to vomit? It would reduce the cera's ability to use vomit in hunting or as an aggro mechanic while still punishing someone for picking a fight with it, though in this case vomit 30 mins later might not be a strong enough punishment to deter a player looking to kill for killing's sake/it might not be enough of a defense as of current, I am not sure.

I think the goal is for it to be like... Annoying, inconvient, something that makes hunting a cera for food undesirable? That's what cera's vomit mechanic is intended for, right? Something to make even big animals think before they engage it, to ask themselves, 'I may kill it, but do I want to vomit later?'

Especially if it can inflict the vomit AFTER the animal eats it's dead body, or after the animal has a chance to eat the body, say if a rex wants to hunt a cera, the goal is for the cera to make the hunt 'not worth it' as the rex vomits more than it would gain?

To say, I thought the vomit was intended for defense rather than offense, even though currently it stands as an offensive tool.

I put question marks on all of this because I am genuinely unsure if this is what the developers intended Cera to be, I am guessing at what the intent was.

[coarse blaze]

How long does it take to grow a deinosuchus with a perfect diet, not 50% but say 30%+

[rustic rock]

why does fighting stegosaurus's feel like your just a play thing to them?

[coarse blaze]

Because they 2-tap basically any medium sized creature and most of them are well aware.

[dusky surge]

i mean, if you know how to fight them, they're honestly pretty pathetic lol, especially as omnis

[rustic rock]

Yeah, it feels so pointless to try anything against them. Off topic, is bucking broken? because I just had multiple raptors ride me like a bull with no problem and I couldn't get em off, felt soo wonky and dumb tbh.

[coarse blaze]

I saw someone else mention it but people get really impatient fighting stegs and I think that ends up killing them.

[rustic rock]

Well, I guess I don't know how to fight em then, because it feels like Im going against a brick wall with a nerf gun

[coarse blaze]

A good few pack carnivores can kill a steg but it's a waiting game and a risky one if they're good. Once they're out of stam you're golden.

[dusky surge]

it's an animal that takes time to kill, most people can't really deal with that

it has no bleed resist, a super vulnerable head and extremely slow, choreographed attacks that leave it open for counterattack, even 2 raptors can deal with one

[rustic rock]

That seems like a lot of effort, also whats to say the stego doesn't have another stego with him or some random herbivore for example.. in fact most of the time I see em traveling in packs.

[coarse blaze]

I genuinely don't know how bucking works, it just either seems to work or doesn't.

[rustic rock]

It feels like bucking works only 10 percent of the time, the mechanics are not at all obvious, lol.

[coarse blaze]

I dare say it's easier if there are two stegs, or more. It's really risky to swing if you have a buddy next to you who keeps moving around and some are more hesitant to swing because of it.

[rustic rock]

I think people are fine with the animal taking time to kill, but it's just not something that's enjoyable.

[dusky surge]

yea because stego is super boring as an animal

[coarse blaze]

I have killed so many herbis because they run infront while I'm swinging instead of just using me as a wall.

[dusky surge]

it's a completely unfinished animal that can barely do what it's supposed to do well

i can't wait for the kit rework so it can actually be worth the growtime

because it is exceptionally underwhelming for what it's supposed to be

[coarse blaze]

Since it's going off of Officals I can't say I'm too excited

I like steg and I want it to stay, sad to see so many don't

[rustic rock]

this game gives solo player vibes, but caters to group play, guess I'm going about it completely wrong.

[coarse blaze]

Depends on what you're playing and how

[dusky surge]

i wish it would stay, because god damn deino needs something to keep it in place

[rustic rock]

deino is boring 2 tho, the only dinosaurs that are fun seem to be, carno, cera, troodon, omni, and idk, dont care about the others.

[dusky surge]

deino is boring but for being literally goddamn immortal and so easy to grow it barely lives up to apex status

stego is hard to grow and not worth the actual payoff, deino is easy as hell and barely a challenge at all

[rustic rock]

I noticed they improved the bleed time on carno, that's a welcome change, it was brutal before, still kind've is.

[coarse blaze]

Why... Why do some alt attacks for some dinosaurs take stamina while others don't?

[waxen lance]

i thought it was only deino, and that makes sense because we all know how update 3 went with its alt attacks not draining stamina. its also slinging around 8 tons so like yeah

[dusky surge]

<@&933486433342222376> i dont think this person is here for just friends

[torn egret]

Bucking doesn’t shake them off, it makes them use more stamina to stay on.

[latent bay]

<@&933486433342222376> smth tells me that ain't free nitro

[knotty venture]

#balance-feedback message
Herbivores do have to eat often enough. but they can graze & are encourged to starve themselves currently to keep certain diets. when the new changes to stam happen it might be worth having low food anymore so we will prob see alot more eating from both sides.

[rustic rock]

Yeah, I don't understand it at all. I just stand there holding E to try and buck them off and they just sit on me awkwardly.. You'd think there'd be a struggle or something

[torn egret]

It uses waay more stamina

For them

[neon willow]

I disagree that hunting needs to be more central to growth. If you run out of food completely, you die, which is already a very good reason to not neglect hunting. Moreover, the reason so many people choose to afk grow is because the risk/reward ratio is ridiculously unbalanced (if literally anything sees a juvi, the juvi is basically dead on sight), and because juvi gameplay is not rewarding in and of itself-- getting to adult is

Afk is the strategy that minimizes risk, and maximizes the chance of becoming adult. Therefore to make afk less desirable, you need to 1) make juvi gameplay fun so that the reward isn't just getting to adult, and 2) make being active not a death sentence

2. is already being touched on with the juvi sanctuaries, so hopefully that helps

[steep echo]

Dryo should have more blood, I seem to drop to about 80-90% after breaking off from a single boar attack and it doesnt seem right

[dusky surge]

@pseudo lotus rex will not be able to do anything to deinos (if deinos are smart)

stego deals with the same issue, where it can't moderate deino populations because it literally does not have access to the waterways where deinos have most safety. The only true threat to a deino is a spino, which we aren't getting for a while

adding a rex to officials would also require that stego gets a hefty buff to prepare for it, and considering that people already assume it's overpowered, that won't fly well

[unreal drum]

I am surprised everyone sort of ignored my post here --> #balance-feedback message

as to give Pachy a chance against upper tier adult Carnivores, especially when solo. I'd been doing a lot of Pachy mechanic testing, and I think this is a really good idea, but why is it not getting any attraction?

[obtuse ocean]

Im all for solo play, but not sure what you mean with pachy vs stego deino etc? Like pachy should not have anything on them.

[unreal drum]

So what you're saying is, Pachy should be free lunch?

[slim dragon]

Pachy shouldn't be ramming a deino

It can walk away from it

[distant torrent]

free lunch? my guy just walk away from the deino or stego

[obtuse ocean]

If lets say stego catches you, yes you should be free lunch lol

[unreal drum]

It has nothing to do with walking away, of course you can walk away. What I said in the original post was to put a bite interrupt mechanic to Pachy head to head. In other words, anyone with a bite, can't use the bite for a second or two, allowing the Pachy to get moving again before the Carnivore is allowed to begin biting again. As is RIGHT NOW at least. If you headbutt a Carnivore, or any larger Dino that can bite. There can bite you through the damage. I have tested this, many times.

So in other words

If you head to head a carnivore = death sentence, period.

[slim dragon]

But pachy shouldn't be able to interrupt any dino's bite
Not a deino's for example
Or you make interrupting attacks a mechanic for all dinos and completely rework combat

[unreal drum]

That is absolutely not realistic, and that is certainly not mechanically sound.

No. only pachy because pachy head butts, which breaks bones.

[slim dragon]

But what if it doesn't break bone ? It doesn't for big animals

[obtuse ocean]

Realistic deino would just swallon you in one go , wouldt even bite lol

[unreal drum]

Only Stego does it not break bones, everyone else though gets fractures. Cerato adult takes two head hits to fracture, Deino takes 3 head hits to fracture, Carno takes 1 head hit to fracture.

[slim dragon]

What many people suggest is that suffering a fracture ALWAYS stuns you
That way it allows pachy to fight back against decently sized opponents without being bitten through their attack, without being ridiculous or stupid

[slim dragon]

It can also break stego's bones, it just takes several hits as well

[unreal drum]

No, I've literally hit a Stego 10 times and no fracture, full charge adult on adult.

I've already done all the mechanic testing.

[slim dragon]

That's not normal, stego is supposed to suffer fractures like everything else

[unreal drum]

I've hit Stego 10 times in all body zones with no fracture.

Body, leg, and head, 10 times no fracture.

At any rate, giving a bite interrupt to Pachy as I said allows them to get running again, which makes sense since it's a 500 KG animal blasting you in the skull, with a skull as hard as rock made for blasting, and yours sure isn't.

If you think about it, if you head butt with a goat, that thing may weigh 25 KG, but it'll still break your neck, concuss you, and most likely paralyze or kill you. Because it's designed for it, and you're definitely not.

[slim dragon]

And then balance comes into question

Also the size comparison between deino and pachy isn't exactly like headbutting a 25kg goat

It's closer to a 3 kg goat

[unreal drum]

I think it's balanced. As of right now a Pachy that headbutts a Dino will most likely die. If you spam bite when a pachy headbutts, you'll get off potentially 2 bites before the Pachy can get moving again, which it's basically already dead.

[slim dragon]

Depends on the dino

Pachy needs to be able to stun carno in one way or another to survive
It doesn't need to be able to stun a deino or a stego

[unreal drum]

I'm of course not referring to Raptors, or anything smaller than that. Whatever the current mechanic is for dealing with them is fine, I'm referring to upper body weight.

I'm of course not referring to stun

The dino could still move, but I am referring to interrupt, meaning it shuts down the biting for a second or two and allows for the Pachy to get moving. It doesn't prevent the Carno/Cerato to get on the tail of the Pachy, then begin biting soon as the interrupt wears off.

[slim dragon]

So it's a minor stun

[unreal drum]

No, because stun would prevent them from moving

Interrupt prevents them from biting, but they can still move.

[slim dragon]

I still don't understand why you want to include apex-sized creatures into the equation

[unreal drum]

Having a stun would be nice, and more closer to how it would be in real life, but that is unbalanced as was noted in prior patches. But, as is. Pachy is a free lunch for any predator.

[slim dragon]

And that's why people have suggested stun on fractures
That way it makes sense and is balanced

[obtuse ocean]

But why should you be attacking a stego as pachy ? Like that should be a bad move.

[unreal drum]

Stego has a tiny head low to the ground, so why not? Also Stego does not bite as it's damage, it tail swipes, so it's more of a 'novelty' or equality I suppose. As for Deino, you still fracture in 3 hits. So, I couldn't see Deino not getting interrupted as well.

[keen plover]

Tbf you can just avoid the stego pretty easily.

[slim dragon]

I'm not sure wh you'd want to go head-on with any of those

[unreal drum]

Okay, listen I am not talking about ESCAPING. I am talking about in a fight, fighting mechanics. Please stick to fighting mechanics. This is what the topic is about.

[keen plover]

Oh well that's easy. The Isle isn't being balanced like a fighting game

[slim dragon]

There is no, nor should be any special fighting mechanic about a pachy VS a stego or a deino
These are fights the pachy is meant to lose, period.

[obtuse ocean]

Yes, but you should not have anything on the stego.

[unreal drum]

If it was being balanced like reality, then Pachy would absolutely have a stun, can fracture Stego, and should even potentially be able to fracture T-Rex legs with enough hits and max charge.

[slim dragon]

Or maybe we should make every dino able to fight any other and have troodon deal 100x damage to Deino so it stands a chance in a 1v1 ?

[unreal drum]

But they are balancing the game.

[slim dragon]

Pachy will be able to fracture t-rex's legs with enough hits

[unreal drum]

We'll see about that, I suppose.

[keen plover]

Yeah and it's balanced pretty well vs apexes. Pachy can 'out-stam', 'out-speed' and 'out-trot' a stego

[unreal drum]

Okay, but that's not important... You're talking about "Can pachy run away if he can then who caaaaaares if they can do anything else, harhar." and I'm saying, no. That's not what I am talking about.

[obtuse ocean]

You can 1v1 a rex or whatever you want as pachy, but my guess you gonna loose lol

[unreal drum]

So

[slim dragon]

The Isle is a survival game, not a fighting game

[unreal drum]

You can't 1v1 a rex then? I'd wager you, a Pachy would do approximately 0.03% damage per hit.

[slim dragon]

Exactly
You can't 1v1 a rex as pachy

Or maybe we should have dryo's peck stun apexes for 10s so it stands a fighting chance instead of being forced to run away ?

[unreal drum]

Lol, alright dude. So, once again I'll go ahead and lay down reality for you. --> 500 KG pachy, --> HEAD TO HEAD Cerato, Carno, or Deino -- should at a minimum interrupt. It may not STUN, but it should interrupt biting. As of --> RIGHT NOW <-- Pachy is a free lunch for any of those predators, ZERO fighting potential against them, assuming not AFK. It also DOES NOT make sense, that a biting mechanic creature, can bite you while taking a full power house slam to the face during, while Pachy is stationary.

[slim dragon]

Yes about carno and cerato
No about deino

Because you don't need to stun or interrupt it to survive
Which is the point of a survival game

[unreal drum]

Why not Deino? What is your arguement that Deino shouldn't be interrupt by a slam the face?

[obtuse ocean]

I saw a clip of a rhino getting hit by a warthog, it took 5 seconds before the rhino even understood that the hog was there

[slim dragon]

It's too big

[unreal drum]

Okay... But --

[obtuse ocean]

carno is even huge compared to pachy in weight

[unreal drum]

Deino is still fractured in 3 hits. Full grown Deino is. So it does indeed feel great pain taking a slam to the face.

[slim dragon]

Yes and ?

[unreal drum]

It should interrupt.

[slim dragon]

Pain doesn't do that
Especially on animals

[obtuse ocean]

Lets say it did, cus its realistic. What should happend to you if it bites you then ?

[unreal drum]

This means nothing, and isn't important to the topic.

[slim dragon]

It kinda is since you're using real-life comparisons

[unreal drum]

As of right now, Pachy dies in 1 bite, that should remain the same. Deino has the greatest bite force in the world, period. And, makes sense.

In fact, my second post, is giving Deino fracture mechanics like pachy on lunge bites.

[slim dragon]

Deino doesn't need that either

[obtuse ocean]

Im not sure what you want, do you want to fight deinos and stegos 1v1 as pachy ?

[unreal drum]

Pachy is not the size of a Warhog, Warhogs do not headbutt their enemies, Rhinos. Rhinos are approximately 700 KG, Pachy is 500 KG, if a Pachy headbutted a Rhino in the skull, do you honestly think he would be like, "Oh, I didn't feel a thing." --

No, he'd be broken, basically.

[slim dragon]

That's not the point of the comparison

[obtuse ocean]

Lets change out trike with rhino then

[unreal drum]

Okay, so are you comparing what to the Trike?

Stegos, or something?

[slim dragon]

trike

[obtuse ocean]

Yes. But im not sure where you going with it, as babulblu said. Its a survival game, not fighting. Your dinos have limits. If you dont know them, you wont survive long i guess

[unreal drum]

Survival is too easy. Go in a corner eat grass, drink puddles. Wow, so great, surviving -- No Carnivore is even going to look for you, but even if they did they have jungles, and bushes the size of houses to hide in, you'll never be found. So what really is the point in this game?

[slim dragon]

The game is unfinished

[obtuse ocean]

Well i need food and water etc

[unreal drum]

Read what I said, lol.

[obtuse ocean]

Im not gonna go look for trikes as a solo allo, cus i would prob need to look for better options

[unreal drum]

From what I hear, Trikes are terrible. Terrible literally everything...

[calm ibex]

i'm going to headbutt this chat

[unreal drum]

Now that's edgy.

[obtuse ocean]

I dont know, have not heard. But if you want to fight something 10x your size you prob loose, but you have all tools not to fight it if you want.

[unreal drum]

I don't particularly get it though if this game is not a combat system, then why not just make it a tag game, Carnivore simply tags you and you die, period. No need to fight back because -- you're food, not a fighter.

[slim dragon]

Either you're dense af either you refuse to understand on purpose just to annoy people

[calm ibex]

u are supposed to play carnivores, herbis are noob trap

[unreal drum]

As of right now, yes -- but I'm bringing back the Herby domination.

[slim dragon]

I don't know how any of what you've been saying would benefit anything other than pachy

Since you clearly expressed you want pachy, and pachy only, to be fighting things 20x its size

[unreal drum]

Okay, first of all..

Carno nor Cerato are 20x it's size. You can not fight back against a grown Deinosuchas since they just one shot you and hide in the water, completely untouchable. What I am saying, is bring in a mechanic that shuts down spam bite attack from hitting Pachy when Pachy goes head to head.

[slim dragon]

Depends on your size

[unreal drum]

Umm... I guess -- for example, Stego doesn't get Fracture at all, but Deino does get Fracture.

Baby Pachy doesn't fracture anything.

Therefore baby Pachy head to head, doesn't do anything.

[coarse blaze]

I think most of the herbivores are pretty weak right now and it's saddening because some of them are more than food but the balancing just isn't it.

I think pachy should be able to fight against medium sized and smaller carnivores, the stun was a bit too abused so I understand it being thrown away but pachy right now feels squishy.

Like pachy 1v1 carno I feel should have at least a chance

[unreal drum]

Yes, it's squishy, it's got fracture mechanics but has zero ability to survive long enough to use them, less so on Carno, more so on Cerato, and Deino.

Carno takes one hit all around to fracture, Cerato two hits, except for leg, but leg is SUPER hard to hit, due to it being tiny hit box.

Deino takes the most hits to fracture, at 3 per location, and leg fracture is totally a mystery to me. Hitting a Deino in the leg does not fracture the leg, it fractures the body.

[coarse blaze]

I think pachy could be really fun to play but it's so easily stopped by most things right now that I just can't get into it anymore. Hopefully herbis get some love a little down the line because right now outside of steg it feels a little hard to defend yourself if at all.

Also people who are happy about stego being removed will be so sad to see them move to trike, trike will just be new stego

[unreal drum]

I agree with you, but I love playing Pachy, I just wish it had some counterplay against some of the Carnivores, I can see like T-Rex, and full grown Deinos, and stuff just straight up one nomming a fully grown Pachy, but I can't see Cerato, and Carno just simply walking up and eating the Pachy as well, totally unchallenged.

[coarse blaze]

I feel ya, pachy is roughly the same size of the two granted maybe a little more stout but it bludgeons things with it's head, it should 100% be able to put up a fight.

[unreal drum]

Yep, time to start a protest group for Pachys, "Pachys on strike, till we're not free lunch anymore!"

[slim dragon]

Pachy is 500kg, cera is 1300kg, carno is 1800kg
They're not exactly the same size

[unreal drum]

Um... No, lol.

[coarse blaze]

The creatures visually are about the same size, they're both medium sized creatures.

Plus the way weight works in the Isle currently genuinely makes very little sense

A baby deino half the size of a carno weighs 2 tons

[slim dragon]

Weight is what matters
It's how you compare living and extinct animals size
Visual size doesn't matter at all

[slim dragon]

That's just deino

[unreal drum]

Actually, yes it does matter because weight is also health pool.

So yes, absolutely weight does matter.

[unreal drum]

I mean, it's the same for Steggy too, which adults weigh 6,000 KG, and a starting baby is like, what 1300, I think?

[coarse blaze]

You got me, I meant weight more as the mechanic however currently and less about health. But you're right, size is classed on weight so I am wrong.

My point still stands, if a rock with that much power behind it hits something bigger it still should do fair damage.

[coarse blaze]

I don't know the stegs weight off the top of my head baby wise, I just know it doesn't hit 2 tons for quite some time. 4 tons is a sub adult so I have no clue what freshspawn is.

[cosmic pelican]

Fresh spawn stego is 184kg

[torn egret]

I call bs lol. I got rammed by a baby pachy as a 45% carno and broke my leg lmao. Did less than 5% dmg and I didn’t see him coming lol. Think there should be a health pool for fractures instead of a % chance? Just curious what others think. I don’t think pachy is busted by any means, but come on lol. Anyone else have that happen?

[slim dragon]

It's already a health pool

Pachy just does a lot of blunt damage

[dusky surge]

that's how it works, there is no chance

[torn egret]

Also, I think pachy headbutt and other charge attacks need a check and balance. Cause I have cancelled charge attacks with a cera right click, etc.

@slim dragon @dusky surge what’s the threshold for the different Dino’s?

[dusky surge]

what threshhold

[slim dragon]

The threshold is when blunt damage done exceeds fracture health of the specific part health it gets broken

[torn egret]

Regarding what happened to me last night, how did a fresh spawn pachy break the leg of a carno that easy?

[slim dragon]

Pachy does a lot of blunt damage

[torn egret]

I’ve hit carnos as a pachy, and not broken anything tho. Not even a body fracture

[dusky surge]

it does a lot of blunt damage, yea

[slim dragon]

And I think carno may have reduced fracture resistance

[torn egret]

Crazy. I need to play more Dino’s. I tried growing carno last few nights. Died more to fg carnos when I was a fresh spawn/juvi than anything else. Was a big mix pack on NA5 last night. 3 carnos, 6 cera and a pack of raptors…
Hopefully I can actually get a chance to play it to 100% tonight

[keen plover]

Cera jumping is a whatever for me. I do think it should be able to jump, but not right now

[latent bay]

Cera jumping can happen so long as Stegosaurus is still throwing its lower half up in the air high enough to beat Diplodocus in the mouth

[coarse blaze]

Thanks to some PVP practice can now confirm but how awful teno is now

I had no idea how little damage it did to a FG carno

[distant torrent]

(why two can just literally assride it to death without even trying to avoid hits)

if your hits don’t decide to land even if the carno is right up your ass, gl

[coarse blaze]

A alt. tails-smack to the head of an adult carno's does 87.5, I genuinely didn't think a kick would do more

[distant torrent]

they nerfed tail slam damage

[keen plover]

Yeah, it's 150n

[coarse blaze]

That's so little

[keen plover]

Kick is still 275n

[keen plover]

It is

[distant torrent]

tail slam still takes more stam right?

[keen plover]

If they want it to be so little, they should greatly reduce the stamina cost lol

[keen plover]

Kick is 6% stamina
Tail slam is 8%

[distant torrent]

and it causes your teno to just fully stop..

[latent bay]

Holy what the tail is that trash now

That's not even a carno bites worth of damage💀💀💀💀💀💀💀

[slim dragon]

Teno is fine as it is
Remember people, it's a herbivore, it's not meant to be able to fight off carnivores

[distant torrent]

ah yes I almost forgot it needs to eat grass and die

[keen plover]

Equal to cera bite 🙂

[latent bay]

My bad, forgot that sauropods were actually gentle giants too stupid to recognize threats chewing its legs and hadrosaurs could only run and never fight

God I feel like a Jurassic Fight Club director

[latent bay]

that's even worse

[slim dragon]

Don't you dare ever forget this again

[keen plover]

Enjoy. Carno having a knockdown tool that deals 300n damage is fine. It only costs 2% more stamina

[latent bay]

Never again

[latent bay]

Tbh i thought charge had a base of 320

[distant torrent]

you should test out cera vs teno next. had a cera decide to just rush my teno ass without even trying to charge bite. left me on half health because of that vomit lock animation. two? easy teno chow

[keen plover]

It's 300 iirc. Could be that. All I know is, 1 shot to a raptors head

[coarse blaze]

I'll for sure give it a shot, I wanted to do some more stuff with cera!

[latent bay]

Say Bird where do you get these numbers from considering they're not shown ingame? Personal testing or is there some sort of stat sheet?

[keen plover]

If there's no rock nearby, there is barely a chance you avoid 2 ceras

Hope they're bad is all I'm going to say

[keen plover]

Personal tests

[latent bay]

Ah makes sense

[keen plover]

and confirming them with others who have also tested

[distant torrent]

I can’t express how painful it is

[keen plover]

New stamina rebalance should totally save teno 🙂

[distant torrent]

tail slam either:

needs fracture
needs a damage buff. a simple stam reduction won’t serve it justice

[keen plover]

I actually fear the new stam changes

[distant torrent]

I do too

[keen plover]

It might end up making herbi's garbage

Like bottom of the barrel playables

If you're not recovering stamina at all mid fight, then you may as well delete the herbis

[distant torrent]

someone did point out that it could help playables like teno but I only see it as hurting them

yup

[latent bay]

Didn't catch the stream and wasn't paid enough to care abt Saphir's video

Could you perchance summarize the stam changes?

[keen plover]

Tail slam costs 8%

and they're buffing universal stamina times

[distant torrent]

more carno rams to spam and high bleed tap pounces c:

[keen plover]

It also limits herbi aggression. Purely due to stamina regen

Like imagine fracturing a raptor and you decide to run it down to kill

[distant torrent]

I personally like herbi aggression

[keen plover]

and then you're left exposed with low stamina and poor regen

[distant torrent]

I like the thought of them being assholes. not op enough to chase down everything, but just genuine assholes

[latent bay]

Mother of god-

That really doesn't need to happen because of carno and carno alone

[keen plover]

So they're limiting the whole 'Run > sit / regen > Run' gameplay

When you're low on stamina and sit, it takes a while for the rate of regeneration to pick up

So if I sit for 1 second, I gain nothing

[distant torrent]

so if you’re trotting, then I assume it’s just nonexistent

[keen plover]

But if I sit for like 40 seconds, the rate keeps on increasing 🙂

[keen plover]

Didn't explain that part

Possibly?????

[coarse blaze]

Herbivores aren't meant to fight off carnivores, meanwhile herbivores

[distant torrent]

I hope not

[latent bay]

Ok, THAT is good

I do like that

It makes you actually have to be in sitting position for more than 2 seconds

[unborn iris]

I like the idea of stam management being more important. The bad part is the year+ we will have even worse balance until they fine tune it.

[distant torrent]

reminds me when someone suggested for a single carno to be able to solo a teno easily

[keen plover]

Yeah ^
I like the concept. but it could just be hell for a period.

I do think herbi's should be able to kill confirm though if a carni gets cocky. Maybe that won't change 🙂

[latent bay]

https://tenor.com/view/damn-you-got-the-whole-squad-laughing-gif-20849744

[distant torrent]

definitely. they’re going to add it, then it’s going to be so trash and painful for at least 6-7 months. if you’re lucky

[keen plover]

I just hate it when herbi's get the short end of the stick. At least the carni's can run

[distant torrent]

cera will benefit the most from the stam change since it literally only wastes stam on running

[keen plover]

Yeah Cera might be more cancerous ngl

I'm genuinely afraid it nukes teno even more

Like right now you can just get away if you run early

[latent bay]

#givecerastamcosts

[distant torrent]

yes

[keen plover]

Imagine if cera runs for 2 minutes base and has no stamina cost on attacks

then you add in the diets 🙂

Wait

[distant torrent]

[keen plover]

Carno itself could probably run for like 2 minutes with the diets + stamina buff

[latent bay]

God i want cera reworked so bad

Make it slow with mid stam but give it actual bulk when not glued to a carcass please I beg

[distant torrent]

I really don’t like the idea of carno being able to run that long. it’s a speed machine that can outspeed anything that can potentially kill it

[keen plover]

It's not looking good

See I didn't mind Carno running for that long tbf

Since biome diversity

[latent bay]

"Hello, suicide prevention hotline? Yeah, it's me again. Tell your other clients that they had the right idea, this world is too stupid to live in"

[keen plover]

and the kit completion for the other dinos

Lets see first tbh. Maybe I'm overrating the stam changes 🙂

[distant torrent]

I’m actually not sure how biome diversity will help tbh. with carno’s new turn and accel, it looks like it’ll be effective even in the jungles especially since the jungles are apparently going to be less dense than spiro’s

[keen plover]

Highlands is a place Carno won't want to be for example

Swamps as well

We need more shallow rivers and for carno to be worse in them

[distant torrent]

I actually hope there are a lot of shallow water in swamp for playables like teno to wade in

[keen plover]

I also doubt it does well in jungles

Depends on the prey of course

Also, we need tall grass for things to run into 🙂

Pretty sure we're getting nanite grass iirc

Update 2 did it well. You'd run into tall grass as a raptor and you vanished

[distant torrent]

I’d love for tall grass to not part at all for small things like hypsi and dryo. it’d allow for them to disappear

troodons too

[keen plover]

Even Omni can vanish if it's tall enough

Crouching cera

[distant torrent]

I need tall grasslands now

[keen plover]

Would also allow allo / alberto to ambush herds 🙂

It's necessary.

I'm fine with strong Carno if there is options to evade it

Also if the game didn't center around everything being in the plains

[distant torrent]

I’ll never be fine with it purely because of its speed and ability to avoid basically any confrontation it doesn’t want. it gets to choose all of its fights

I like the idea of balancing speed with power. the more powerful it is, the slower it is. the less powerful it is, the more agile and/or speedy it is

[keen plover]

I see Carno just being that freak case where it doesn't follow that convention. It's large, fast and powerful.

Still Teno should deal with it better than now. Cera deals with it OK. It really depends on how well you can dodge charge

Like even if charge was 200n and only dealt stuns, Carno would still be menacing to cera

and teno of course

[distant torrent]

definitely

[keen plover]

Like I know a lot of people don't like Cera losing to Carno, but I don't have a problem with the much larger carnivore beating on the smaller one in its preferred biome. It should be respected there.

[distant torrent]

I think because it was mostly tossed around as the powerful and incredibly slow tanky scavenger that can’t really hunt well and was said to beat a single carno pretty easily

though they didn’t make cera like that at all lmfao mans the speed of a teno and has the stam of a god with that lack of stam cost

[keen plover]

I guess I just base it on realism in that specific matchup lol also the size difference in game

[keen plover]

lol

It confused everyone

[distant torrent]

the size difference I can understand but I think the main idea was the vomit. honestly, I’d be fine with cera being buffed as long as it got reduced in speed and got a significant stam nerf overall so it can’t catch anything or outstam anything. mans got a godly nose to sniff for food. it should use it more

[keen plover]

I think the speed is fine. The stamina is fine as well imo. I just want the other creatures to be buffed instead in that department. Like pachy possibly running a bit faster. Teno having a higher base stamina / better stam regen. Stuff like that

Cera is still a tiny guy. It losing speed will screw with it in the future

With roster additions

[distant torrent]

I wish for the day teno gets higher base stamina and better stam regen

(also lowkey wishing for tail slam to do fractures. it’s teno’s worst stam attack and stops movement fully, and it’s also limited in side to side range)

pure muscle and weight being slammed down. at the very least let it break an omni’s toe

[slim dragon]

Once tiered fractures are implemented I could honestly see half the attacks in the game doing some amount of blunt damage

[keen plover]

Yeah 🙂

Cera having an activation cost that's like 5% stamina will be huge. So even if they let go / miss, they lose stamina. Giving Teno more distance it could cover

Which limits Ceratos endurance gameplay. Teno having a higher base stamina & good regen allows it to outrun cera

[distant torrent]

I kind of want the attack to scale with how long it’s charged. base would be 5% and scale up from there

[keen plover]

While still allowing Cera to hunt a teno thats been caught out

[keen plover]

Fair

[keen plover]

What I want. Even a slight increase in attack cost would be huge for something like a tail slam. light body fracture on a carno / cera, which allows you to get out of there

[latent bay]

This. Cerato was marketed as an awful hunter but an excellent fighter. What we got however was a good hunter and good fighter. Make cerato one extreme or the other

Hell cerato's stam could probably be at least excusable if it had like a few more kilos on it with passive damage reduc and a titanic speed reduc

[distant torrent]

yep

I find it very sad a cera could run down an omni if it truly wanted to with persistence. that’s what I did the other day with my cera to a few omnis

[slim dragon]

good hunter and excellent fighter*
It's still overtuned regarding its combat capabilities

[latent bay]

My point still stands

Ceratosaurus is far too overtuned. It needs to be one extreme or the other. It can be the "dont mess with me" carnivore and ALSO by the "hyena archetype" carnivore at the same time

[torn egret]

But it doesn’t do good at either. Rotten food gives no nutrition, bones only benefit the young, and one of its prey items (carno) can outclass it. Cera and carno are often killed on site to eliminate competition from fg carnis. I don’t mind Cera being tough and nimble, but it struggles diet wise against most of the roster. It’s best prey items are omnis. They are more plentiful and if you kill one then you’re set with the buffs etc.
the vomit rework was needed, but they compete way too much with deinos over spoils.
I treat the cera like a pit bull/Komodo dragon hybrid lol. I’m ok with it’s stats and everything as it is now. Because when the full roster comes out it’ll have more options for food. But it’s diet needs work. 1 ai on the diet is not enough of corpses give no benefit

[slim dragon]

Cera has the most lenient diet of all carnis, scavenging is just bad as a whole

Also I don't understand where you got the idea that carno is a prey item for cera ?

[latent bay]

Cera is a very endurance filled hunter that can run down everything and can be a very good fighter with a taf bit of skill

[torn egret]

But what does it really have to hunt anymore? Carnos and Stego dominate the most playable area, pachy are few and far between. Dryo? Gone-o.
It’s well built as it is now, my gripes come from mostly map design and player selection when it comes to Dino’s.

No one likes to fight a cera. People would rather risk a deino attack as a carno, or run out of site. It’s be an endurance hunter if it could actually track prey properly. I think tracking in evrima is subpar

But most of my cera complaints stem from map design, and other Dino’s not getting love on the roster.

[latent bay]

No one likes to fight cera and in turn always annihilate every cera they see that they can feasibly annihilate though

[torn egret]

Exactly. But unless you’re 75% grown, cera gets stomped.

But that’s true for all carnivores

They get bodied on site

[latent bay]

Yeah unless near corpses then they become gods

Except they don't because everything viable rn has a knockdown attack

[torn egret]

But they get nothing from the body unless it’s fresh. They grow so fast, yet dies so easy.

But I think with more ai, different map design, cera will find the niche that it needs

[latent bay]

Literally just let them get nutrients from rotten bodies equal to or potentially greater than what they get from hunting

That way cera becomes an actual scavenger

[torn egret]

I think reduced nutrients is fine. Not equal or greater. Makes them clean up more

Glad to see someone else thinking along my 2 brain cells lol. I actually had a viable idea! Lol

[latent bay]

Oh btw calc better tracking is great I would KILL for tracking that isn't solely the scent system, like intractable foliage creating game trails

[torn egret]

If they’re bleeding, it should be a trail, not a dot every 30 ft lmao. Also, footprints should be findable via smell, within like 15 ft I think is fair, and the footprints should also be based on what they walked on.
Mud? Easy tracking,
Stone? Maybe if they wallowed or were wet. Or make it 5 ft to smell the track.
Maybe if they swim across water, depending on the body of water, cloudy up the water.

[hasty coyote]

There’s something else you didn’t mention, and this is most notable with carno. Currently, as something that has to run for its life from carno, you just need to juke it for a minute or less and you’re good. When you buff the runtime for everything, now you have to juke out the carno for longer but still can’t make any more mistakes. So instead of dryo having to run for a minute and possibly surviving a single bite (like 1 mistake per minute) dryo now has to run for 2 minutes while still dying on a non-tail shot (0.5 mistakes per minute)

This change drastically limits the margin of error for “run away” herbivores, a playstyle most people already dislike.

[unreal drum]

Actually weirdly enough it last not a trail when hunting it’s dots. To have a trail it would be gushing blood and you wouldn’t have to worry about chasing it because it’d be death in 20 - 50 feet.

[torn egret]

It needs to be a legit trail. Idk if you’ve hunted before, but blood trails are easy to follow. Granted those wounds are generally from a single killing blow.
But more plays of blood on the ground, bushes or trees would help immensely

[unreal drum]

I have hunted before yes, as mentioned dot trails are what you follow line trails don’t take much following they’re dead really close by.

[torn egret]

I think I misrepresented what I wanted. The blood trail should be followable. Not like a perfect line, but more splotches and make them easier to find

[unreal drum]

Line splotches? Sort of pointing in their direction?

[neon willow]

Like a dotted line, rather than a continuous line

They want the blood drops to be closer together, as sometimes it's 35-40 m between subsequent drops and therefore basically useless

[tall bronze]

Could be made even more interesting if the distance between blood splotches decreased the more bleed they had. So something bit by an Omni would barely leave any, but a Giga gash if you live would be similar to a full on trail 😛

[unreal drum]

I mean, I’ll be honest with you that is typical of blood splotches to begin with, you hunt by following blood, foot prints and scat (in real life that is). What might be a lot better of an option though is smelling a bleeding animal would be more realistic, for another animal to do.

But that would suck because you couldn’t hunker down and stop bleeding you’d be forced to run across map.

[tall bronze]

Saw the idea the other day involving tracking living prey that may work with this. Basically you get a general "somewhere in this area" scent for a player. Even at maximum accuracy, it's never 100% pinpoint accurate, still just "somewhere here".

[unreal drum]

That could be interesting but admittedly in any given area there might only be like 2-3 bushes they might be hiding in, assuming center where the only fights in the game happen.

[tall bronze]

Well Center is gonna get got along with the rest of Spiro, so it shouldn't be too bad

[random stump]

guys i have recieved new information
i think two or three diablos should absolutely annihilate a deinosuchus on land

like three of these should be a very, very, very dead gator assuming it isnt near water

I could see it and allo having a 1v1 be in ones favor or the other depending on wether the allo ambushes it or not
like if the diablo sees it and can turn diablo wins
if allo ambushes it and bites its rear/tackles it from behind/whatever allo does allo wins

[dusky surge]

i disagree heavily

diablo should be strong, but against a deino, it's still a deino

3 diablos should struggle against a stego, let-alone a deino

also don't use that as an accurate size depiction

in-dev sizes of unfinished animals can vary massively due to scaling not being done

[random stump]

so they should struggle against a terrestrial apex on land where they are an "even playing field"
but it should be HARDER to deal with a semi aquatic "apex" on land. which is suited to being worse on land and better in the water then terrestrial counterparts?
that makes negative sense

[dusky surge]

when said nonterrestrial apex has more health and more bleed res, yea

in the concept art, diablo is very clearly MUCH smaller than carno

using the size of in-dev animals for a concrete conclusion on the final animal is silly imho

[random stump]

there is 0 reason
for deino
which can 1 shot things near the water
to get to fight off
3-4 mid to upper midtier creatures
if its THAT strong it needs a nerf to either its abilities in the water/on the waters edge or to its abilities inland

[dusky surge]

they aren't upper-mid

not even maia is upper-mid

[random stump]

my point stands

the semi aquatic should not be considered equal to or greater than stego on land

the semi aquatic should be less than stego on land.
its a semi aquatic for a reason

im alright with a semi aquatic being greater than a creature that is in a lower weight class then it
like i expect a deino to be able to solo any midtier on land
its still an apex
however, deino shouldnt be matching stego on land
because its a semi aquatic

[dusky surge]

okay, but also, 3 diablos should absolutely not match a deino on-land

[random stump]

assuming they keep the size shown? they definetly should
(if the diablos are good)

[dusky surge]

i mean, it's unlikely given most of what we know of the plans for it depict it as smaller than teno

[random stump]

if it keeps that size
deino should die if three or more of them catch the deino out away from water.
its a semi aquatic. by nature of being a semi aquatic, it has
the advantage of getting to hide in water from terrestrials it doesnt want to fight
the disadvantage of being forced to hide in water from many terrestrials

[dusky surge]

why are you typing like that

[random stump]

because i feel like it

[dusky surge]

fair

[random stump]

I Could Type Like This Too

[dusky surge]

like in this, it's very clear the size comparison they want between carno and diablo

especially considering in the same concept art, they are also heavily outsized by albertos

which are mid-tiers

[random stump]

that is fair
however a few things could be argued
1 - that could be a young diablo
2 - alberto could be considered a "Large" tier
3 - They could've decided to make diablo bigger then in the concept arts, as the concept arts arent concrete confirmations about an animal, just a concept of it.

[dusky surge]

alberto is around the same size as allo

[random stump]

oh

i thought it was bigger

[dusky surge]

that's probably acro you're thinking of

[random stump]

like much bigger the mf was larger then a sub rex

[dusky surge]

generic therapods starting with the letter a are quite common

[dusky surge]

in legacy? sizes are all over the place

nothing makes sense and nothing is sacred

[dusky surge]

@coarse blaze honestly, all herbis, including stego, need love

stego for both being... really dull, and needing preperation for ya boi, rex

[coarse blaze]

People will never let it go if steg gets love but I agree

Stegs kit while strong is very lacking to say the least, big herbi doesn't deserve the hate it gets.

[dusky surge]

stego is just BORING dude

[latent bay]

Even then the kit isn't strong enough

What's 1200 damage per slow swing going to do against Mr. Bunker Buster Jaws (rex) and paper shredder face (giga)

[dusky surge]

like jesus christ the only redeeming feature of it is humbling carni mains with Jurassic World syndrome

[coarse blaze]

I am convinced people say "I hate all stegs" because everyone else says it

Without reason, and without learning their lesson the first time.

[dusky surge]

stego falls off hard without any way to mixup attacks or punish anything. It literally has no tools to punish anything, it is entirely reliant on the other guy making mistakes

[latent bay]

Precisely

Stego needs something, anything, that isn't right click spam, in order to feasibly do ANYTHING against rex, giga and spino or acro

[coarse blaze]

When we were running some tests yesterday, a really good solo omni does quite a bit given time.

Hitting them was genuinely hard if they were patient, I only could get them as they jumped off.

[dusky surge]

every other animal (that isn't purely evasive) has the potential for mixups with their attacks and variety. Stego has a godawful bite range and the tailswing is entirely a skillcheck for the opponent, it is not at all useful for punishing unless the animal is actively doing something exceptionally wrong

[coarse blaze]

My health isn't what I'd die from for sure, but give it another 30-40 minutes and I could have just bled out.

[dusky surge]

exactly, and fun fact, omnis can stagger when they dismount, meaning it's REALLY hard to predict

and they can change their dismount angle

[coarse blaze]

I actually didn't know that until yesterday

I genuinely thought it was the same angle everytime until my swings didn't land

[dusky surge]

stego is, honestly, one of the worst animals in the game, benefitted entirely by a roster that it can deal with even while so weak

same can be said for carno tbh

a single, well-balanced allo being added would shred current carnotaurus to kingdom come

[coarse blaze]

People complain about it's swing hitbox, I genuinely don't think it's that generous.

[dusky surge]

it's actually one of the most precise hitboxes in the game

[unborn iris]

People are just complaining about desync, they just don't realize what it actually is.

[dusky surge]

pretty much

[coarse blaze]

People just like to whine about what they play

Someone yesterday was literally saying that herbivores aren't meant to fight back against carnivores

[latent bay]

WHAT

[dusky surge]

i love that so much

just accept the fact you selected "playable food" on the select screen

[coarse blaze]

Might as well plush the spikes off of steg, the horns from trikes and massive clubs from anky

God I am excited for chunky herbivores though

Anky and trike will be absolute beasts

[dusky surge]

i'm excited for diablo cause i'm hoping it's not bad lol

or that it will return some herbis

[mortal tundra]

@coarse blaze As a carno I usually can't stun anybody if I hit their tail (except for tenos, because they're 50% tail). Yesterday I tried to ram a galli, but it turned so I only hit it's tail and it kept running. Also pachys can defend themselves against some creatures, but can't kill them easily without 3 or more creatures. They can fairly easily kill raptors, but with carnos and ceras they can fracture their legs and run, and if you have 3 pachys you can kill a cera and possibly a carno.

Other herbivores can't defend themselves for obvious reasons though, like a dryo or hypsi, but that's just because they're small and there's not much you can do about that.

[coarse blaze]

A carnotaurus can stun a ceratosaurus via it's tail very easily, this makes avoiding charges with swift turns at close range fairly inconsistent and often times spells death for the other player. Carnotaurus does not need to hit a lot of an opponent to knock them down. Pachycephalosaurus can fight off one omni pretty well but bleeds out after 3-4 tap pounces, it can possibly fend off a smaller ceratosaurus and that's it solo. A group of Pachycephalosaurus' can be wiped out pretty fast by a pair of carnotaurus' or ceratosaurus' with very little resistance. Tenontosaurus has so little DMG output that it can't 1v1 a FG carnotaurus more often than not, it's alt-attack does less than it's kick. The claw attack does even less and the bite isn't really anything to ride home about.

That's why I specified "medium-sized" herbivores for that reason. I understand smaller herbivores like dryo and hypsi aren't mean to be fighters.

@/Bird. Omniraptors fall resistance I think is fair and far better than most, you have to fall a pretty decent height to fracture your leg. While as annoying as it is to fall off of NW rock and crack your ankle it's the only thing preventing players from nonchalantly jumping from heights they shouldn't, most of the other playables are punished for falling from far less.

Letting Omniraptor "scramble up trees" after dismounting wouldn't help Omniraptor hunting in jungles. If anything it would be a hassle to add a whole other animation after dismounting; Omniraptor does not need to climb, that's not it's niche.

I agree that tap-pouncing needs re-worked.

Omniraptor having a delay after pinning gives the opponent a chance to fight back, or get away rather than just letting the attacker win, if Omniraptor were able to pin and back-off it would be incredibly unfair to the other player.

[dusky surge]

scrambling up trees is shown in the concept art and should totally be a thing

[keen plover]

I think a slight buff to fall res is fine. It's not like they'll be fine falling off a really high drop. Just enough to tank falls from rocks.

That ability would help Omni in jungles. Especially against taller targets. Allowing you room to avoid a hit. Also Omni is getting a 'climb', I just thought it would be a cool transition animation that would help it better in jungles.

Also the delay after pinning something is a bit silly. The whole point of ambushing something is to secure the kill anyways. Against Galli, you always tank a few kicks, which to me is unfair after getting a good ambush off. Also there are situations where you need to move away quickly. I've been stuck on pin while a stego has come running, killing me and the thing I ambushed

[dusky surge]

pachy should also have a better fall damage res

[coarse blaze]

I just don't know how it would enrich what we currently have, like what would be the use of such a thing?

[dusky surge]

escaping an actually competent small-game hunting carno

lmao

[keen plover]

Also a safe place to eat for solitary raptors

[dusky surge]

taking down overconfident hypsis/herreras, who otherwise will rarely know danger

[coarse blaze]

But after dismounting a pounce? Maybe it was just the way it was worded but the situation presented just didn't seem viable.

[keen plover]

Unless scrambling denies you holding food in your mouth (it shouldn't)

[dusky surge]

oh, scrambling should be always a thing

[coarse blaze]

Maybe I just don't understand, I didn't see the concept. I know a lot of what's in the concepts aren't always implimented and we've been told supposedly not to expect everything presented.

[dusky surge]

it should be like climbing, but way worse

[coarse blaze]

I do worry about herra having very little to worry about though but in the same sense that deinos don't have much to worry about. Granted I'm not sure if herras are going to be cannibals (?)

[keen plover]

Sort of like a transition animation from a dismount. Thought it would be a fun movement idea. Dismount off prey item upwards > avoid attack and run up a tree a bit. If it's short enough, you can sit on top like the concept. If not, you get an opportunity to avoid an attack

[dusky surge]

hope not

herreras being cannibals on top of everything else would be silly

[keen plover]

Like if Omni can scramble, why can't it dismount then scramble?

Maybe that's a bit much but

I thought it was a neat idea

[coarse blaze]

"Also the delay after pinning something is a bit silly. The whole point of ambushing something is to secure the kill anyways. Against Galli, you always tank a few kicks, which to me is unfair after getting a good ambush off. Also there are situations where you need to move away quickly. I've been stuck on pin while a stego has come running, killing me and the thing I ambushed"

Pinning and ambushed aren't always one in the same, a careless pin putting you in a vulnerable situation say; a steg running towards you I think is entirely valid.

A pin kills most things in the end, be it bleed or not. You taking a hit or two for doing so or being punished for not taking in your surroundings as cautiously I think is important.

[keen plover]

The punishment is being prone to attacks though. Pinning a group of something is a mistake. The punishment shouldn't come from the delay

If I let go, I should be able to move

[keen plover]

Galli does a lot of bleed

[coarse blaze]

Realistically if you were to pin something and get up you wouldn't have time to move away before they got up

[coarse blaze]

So does omni

[keen plover]

Yeah, but every time you dismount, you get kicked.

There is no world where the galli can't hit you

[coarse blaze]

The price to pay for pinning something that might hurt if it doesn't die.

They need a way to fight back, not be instantly killed

[keen plover]

It can literally avoid it by running.

Galli's weakness is being ambushed

[coarse blaze]

Genuinely your pin would do more bleed than 2 kicks

[coarse blaze]

Weakness doesn't = immediate death every time

It's a vulnerability

[keen plover]

I don't agree with that, but that's whatever.

I still think that the delay shouldn't exist and you should be able to back off quickly without being hurt

[coarse blaze]

We can hope, I don't think they'll be cannibals but you never know

We can agree to disagree, I just think Omni is already not punished for a lot of what it does, giving it new ways to avoid getting hit just sounds like a recipe for disaster.

It can already latch onto things from the front/back, lacks pounce punishment and bleeds out things incredibly quick via tap-pouncing.

[keen plover]

I'm not really opposed to those punishments. Also tap pounce should be gutted

I'm not saying make it easy. I just want Omni to be capable in different biomes and to have more flexibility

If Omni can't tap pounce and jungle gameplay is kept the same, it probably can't hunt too well in there

Which if that's the way they want it, then that's fair

[coarse blaze]

It has a fairly good growth time, it's got good speed, decent health and stamina, currently with the lack of punishments it's a pretty easy dinosaur to steam-roll with a even half-decent group.

Too much flexibility is how we get another ceratosaurus situation.

[keen plover]

That's fair as well. I think it could lead to that if it only got buffs.

I guess additional punishments would work out like slower acceleration and higher stamina costs for a missed pounce

[coarse blaze]

Currently the carnivores are getting alot of love, the idea of it getting a lot of buffs if it were favored I don't think would be too far-fetched.

Missing pounces = stuns is an idea that's been thrown around which I like far more

[keen plover]

I have wilder takes for teno / pachy

[coarse blaze]

Can't be wilder than "please give them more love" apparently

[untold reef]

Herd Buff ? 😄

[coarse blaze]

Like a body-buff but for herds? Kind of down.

[keen plover]

Pachy to me is sad.

The damage
lack of stuns
speed / agility

It shouldn't even be a contest for raptors 1 v 1
Especially when they want raptors to pin in groups

The alt swing is 75n

[coarse blaze]

Pachy I know can 1v1 a raptor, it's not too bad but it will bleed out even if it kills the raptor.

[keen plover]

Which is raptor left click & alt attack territory

[keen plover]

It can't kill confirm too well

[coarse blaze]

I 1v1 tested yesterday with someone, pachy won most of the times

[keen plover]

It wins

[coarse blaze]

but bleed was an issue

[keen plover]

I'm not denying that. But if the raptor wants to escape for messing up it becomes annoying. Personally, I feel like raptors shouldn't even think about hunting pachys

Pachy relying on ram when it used to be able to run and alt swing

Which gave it an even better offensive pressure

[coarse blaze]

They absolutely should in my opinion, pachys should have a chance against raptors; especially at that size.

I really, really don't like the idea of "herbivores are just walking food"

[keen plover]

?

I'm stating that raptors shouldn't think about it, not the other way around

[coarse blaze]

Like shouldn't think about fighting them? I think I misunderstood

[keen plover]

Yeah

Pachy should be one of Omni's worst matchups in the game

[coarse blaze]

Ooh, I saw it the other way! Yes, I think it would be a good fight if anything

Honestly ramming seems less effective than alt-swinging when the raptor goes to pounce

[keen plover]

Alt swing is the better tool

It used to be a great tool when chasing raptors 😦

[coarse blaze]

That's what I felt, the ramming doesn't last very long and they can just walk away from you.

Don't you have to trot to alt-swing? Like you can't sprint and do it?

Not sure if my movement was just poor or that you just can't

[keen plover]

yeah can't run and do it. Only trot, walk and stand

[coarse blaze]

Poor pachy got nothing no more

[winter iris]

@coarse blaze agreed on carno, knocking down something should only work if hitting the body and the last part of the tail shouldn’t even cause stun but just a little damage. On the other hand playing carno I noticed that many times the ram doesn’t even stun or knock down when it hits the body (plus now it takes ages to activate the ram, don’t get me wrong I didn’t like instant ram as in previous update, but now it takes too long). On herbis being weak I still haven’t played that much in this update to say it, but many people say teno is weaker. On pachy, I have to say that most people that complain simply play it the wrong way pretending they’re playing something that should be able to face and kill everything: it simply isn’t and that is how it should be. Then I agree that things can be modified on pachy, but most of the times the attitude to brawl everything is just wrong. Pachy is good at fracturing and escaping, if people want to hunt and kill they should play cera, carno, Utah not pachy

[coarse blaze]

Carno I think is just not worked well currently, it feels unpolished and both parties seem to suffer from it. Also yes, the ram actually turning into said ram does take time, I learned yesterday that if a cera just keeps close to a carno, with full bile it can basically face-tank without giving the carno enough space to try to ram.

Teno is much weaker, it was really strong supposedly back in the day. An alt-attack to a carno's head only drops it's health to 87.5%.

Pachy for sure shouldn't be face-tanking things, getting fractures on carno seems rather hard but my main issue is how squishy it is currently. Honestly if it just had a little more sturdiness to it I think it'd have a much better chance at getting a hit in and being able to make it back out.

[cosmic pelican]

I agree with everything you said, except for teno being weak, at least against carno (it does struggle very hard against pack hunters and groups). From my experience the matchup became more teno favored than it was in u6.

[dusky surge]

teno gets literally stunned through slam lol

[cosmic pelican]

It can dodge it

And its not even that hard to avoid the knockdown

[dusky surge]

i don't think a skillshot should be punished

[cosmic pelican]

It shouldnt be, but as long as it can work its way around it its fine

[coarse blaze]

Teno can't output the DMG required really to kill a carno before the carno kills it at this point, 87.5% for a alt to the head is actually absurd and 77% for a kick. With how janky carnos ram is I just can't wrap my head around it at the moment.

Also teno being knocked over from a ram but carno not being able to be stunned via the tail-smack doesn't really make much sense to me.

[cosmic pelican]

Personally I never struggled against carnos after I learned that the ram is dodgeable, carno lacks the agility to bait out attacks and it cant keep charging for long

[coarse blaze]

My experience was based on 1v1s against a good carno player I should clarify, someone who isn't easily baited is a bit hard to beat.

[keen plover]

eh Carno is pretty simple to apply pressure on solo

[coarse blaze]

Carno doesn't need to ram to kill teno, it does enough DMG on it's own really

[fallen pulsar]

Stegos should remain tanks, but seriously oneshots? At least lower his dmg

[keen plover]

One shots vs?

[fallen pulsar]

Cera

[coarse blaze]

When a medium sized carnivore gets bodied by a 6 tonned herbivore with a spiked tail

[keen plover]

Oh it was a headshot

[fallen pulsar]

i was full grown Cera without a corpse tho

[coarse blaze]

Also it's 2-shots to a body

[coarse blaze]

You're so, so much smaller than steg

[cosmic pelican]

Same for me, I usually practice in an admin server where most of the players are better than average and I never struggled in a 1v1

[fallen pulsar]

i looked up, 10 people couldnt bring 1 stego down

[keen plover]

Outside of charge, carno is pretty simple to beat

[coarse blaze]

Not true

[keen plover]

10 ceras?

[cosmic pelican]

Then thats major skill issue on the ceras part

[coarse blaze]

I've been killed by ceras as a steg, granted vomit lock was still around but still

[keen plover]

3 - 4 ceras should be bringing down a stego every time

[fallen pulsar]

10 carnos on the video, in that match where i died it was 5 of us, 4 full grown and 1 sub cera

[keen plover]

A solo good cera can take down an average stego

[fallen pulsar]

dude this guy just huged a stone

[coarse blaze]

A better player than me, we'll have to agree to disagree I think but I appreciate the feedback all the same.

[fallen pulsar]

i mean yea tactics and all that but still too mutch, tank and dmg should not be that high together

[keen plover]

Hardly a tank tbf. Don't need that many headshots to kill one. The damage is what makes it scary

[coarse blaze]

Vojke, you're playing a medium-tier carnivore against something absolutely massive. If you're not experienced fighting them you just shouldn't be in range of them.

[cosmic pelican]

I can show you if youd like to, yesterday I saw you in the same admin server I usually practice in, just ping me if youre interested 😄

[coarse blaze]

I'd for sure be down to PVP, I don't have admin and have no real interest in the Discord. How'd you see me by chance, I assume you see names?

[fallen pulsar]

when i have a good hunt and a good duel 1v1 when i loose to skill thats to admire for

[keen plover]

you can as admin

[coarse blaze]

I won't lie I need practice

[keen plover]

If you guys want, I can help out

[cosmic pelican]

Admin tools are pretty helpful, Im also pretty active in here so I saw the chats 😄

[coarse blaze]

I saw some really neat fights in there, giga cool that everyone was just testing their own stuff really

We learned that a good omni with given enough time can bleed out a stego

Genuinely impressive

[cosmic pelican]

Honestly that sounds scary XD

[fallen pulsar]

i mean overall i am new at this, generally to dinosaurs, but i spent alot of time on moba games, and i know the tank problem when i see it, trust me, i stand behind that he has too mutch dmg on his tail, if that is realism ok, i noted to never cross another stego ever again, but if we talk about balance in a game his dmg should get nerfed

[coarse blaze]

It was really neat, I'd love to practice mostly:

Carno v cera

Cera v cera

Pachy v cera/carno

[coarse blaze]

It's a survival SIM game first, PVP plays a big element but to say the genre is PVP I don't think is accurate.

[cosmic pelican]

I have a decent strategy as cera against a carno, pachy vs cera shouldnt rly be discussed....

[fallen pulsar]

yea? then where are more AIs around the world?

[coarse blaze]

Food

[cosmic pelican]

poor pachy might as well accept death when a cera sees it

[coarse blaze]

Diet

[fallen pulsar]

if its a survival game why am i forced to get into pvp?

[coarse blaze]

Because you're playing a carnivore

you need to eat and consume other players, stego is not in the same tier as you.

[fallen pulsar]

who can feed of boars deers rabbits

[coarse blaze]

Rabbits? Pts, raptors (?) troodons

Boars, deer are on carno and raptor's diet

[unborn iris]

Pvp survival.

Kind of the point.

[cosmic pelican]

Im in the server right now if you have time testing these out

[coarse blaze]

Players offer more diet wise via organs, you'll have to fight players for sure but you're not meant to try and solo something so much bigger than you

[fallen pulsar]

u dont get the point, you said its not pvp right? where are more animals around the world who can give the specific diet for every species?

[coarse blaze]

Killing players gives you more than AI typically, anything you need on your diet as a carnivore can be obtained via organs. Cera doesn't have a lot of AI on it's diet because it's a scavenger

[cosmic pelican]

a game being solely pvp and a game having pvp elements in it are 2 different things

[fallen pulsar]

when i spawn as a fresh player, i consistently get forced to go into the center to get food from PVPs and corpse remains

[coarse blaze]

Will you be around for very long? I'm currently a tad busy but if you're time-sensitive I can save what I'm doing.

[coarse blaze]

Because that's center, it's a massive hotspot

You as a fresh spawn can be food for something else, therefore they'll kill you.

[fallen pulsar]

omg dude, read what i type, there is no AI food around the map to survive and grow enough so that u can have a balanced PVP in a center for late game survival

[coarse blaze]

It's PVP in the sense of what you need to survive, not just fighting to fight more often than not.

[fallen pulsar]

so thats a PVP game then

[cosmic pelican]

I doubt ill be around a very long time, but I can come back later 😄

[coarse blaze]

There absolutely is.

[keen plover]

I feel like this is simpler.

As a carnivore, your goal is to hunt other players. However, some creatures are to be avoided. Cerato packs CAN hunt stegos, but if you're not skilled enough, you can go after simpler prey items.

It's a high stakes fight

[coarse blaze]

I'm sure we'll have time! Just maybe ping me then when you're back later and we can see where things land!

[cosmic pelican]

will do! see you soon 😄

[coarse blaze]

Yeah, I want to think I can do it but that's gonna be rough

[keen plover]

Just like in the real world, some prey items are very risky for predators to hunt. Some herbivores are completely off the menu as well once they're full adults

[coarse blaze]

I genuinely always grow carnos via boar AI lowkey

Gotta get that stamina 💪

[unborn iris]

That sounds like a slow grow.

[coarse blaze]

It is

Kind of, all 3 filled is still a 30%+

[keen plover]

ngl, I'd do it as rex

[unborn iris]

15% with 3 dots.

[fallen pulsar]

my personal opinion on this mater is that there is not enough food to slowly grow around the center as a carnivore, its is not balanced, it is forcing ppl to get into pvp very very early, take this into consideration or dont, if herbs can eat everywhere on the map, carnivores should get that option too, without to have to get into the pvp. there should be more animals to give or not to give diets and thats that. Have a good day

[keen plover]

The longer I'm at that 2t range, the better

[coarse blaze]

All 3 hexs filled a juvie still gives you 30%+ as perfect diet

[fallen pulsar]

srry for my bad eng

[keen plover]

15% actually

30% requires you to have 2 of the same diet type and 1 different

[coarse blaze]

Herbivores need to go to specific areas to fill their diets, not just anywhere.

Carnivores can live off AI, cera doesn't have a lot of AI on it's diet because it eats rot and corpses

[coarse blaze]

Really? Let's put a pin in this for the moment, I want to check when I can I could have sworn it was 30

[fallen pulsar]

we agree to disagree

no point talking

[coarse blaze]

You said you were new, I assure you a raptor can live off AI alone NW, same with carno.

[keen plover]

Carno struggles, but it can (which is good)

[fallen pulsar]

and game is in development

[coarse blaze]

I AFK cera all the time in the ravine.

[coarse blaze]

What does that have to do with the current diet mechanics?

[keen plover]

Eventually juvis will have areas to get ai food

[fallen pulsar]

it doesnt have enough AI food around the world

[keen plover]

Full adult carnivores should NOT be living off ai though. At least groups of them

[coarse blaze]

God I guess all those players who live off AI to grow just aren't really then

[keen plover]

Well maybe if you're a small tier

[fallen pulsar]

''survival'' game forcing pvp

[unborn iris]

There are some issues with AI right now. Boars just slaughter all the other AI I think.

Spawning is apparently hard to balance.

[coarse blaze]

Because animals don't kill one another to survive in the wild.

[fallen pulsar]

@unborn iris thank you thats another topic

then higher the nuber of the AI animals

other than that, when u freshly spawn u cant even kill a boar

[unborn iris]

It bounces back and forth. Couple months ago there was AI everywhere.

[coarse blaze]

That's something people mention often but if it were to be increased too much it'd be very easy to grow.

[fallen pulsar]

not too mutch

[coarse blaze]

Alot of times you're out of AI because someone else is killing it

[unborn iris]

They are trying to find the right balance for AI spawns I assume.

[coarse blaze]

I tend to live off AI because killing players can be hard, I just can't fathom how this all started because you as a cera tried killing a steg.

[fallen pulsar]

i understand that, i apreciate the work, i just give feedback on little fineces, i spent over 10 hours just wondering around the map

10 hours last night

u know how many boars and deers i found?

even after couple of server restarts?

[coarse blaze]

Did you look in the biomes they spawn in?

[keen plover]

Probably not a lot lol

[coarse blaze]

NW is full of boar and deer

[keen plover]

They move into the jungles rn

[fallen pulsar]

@keen plover 🙂

[keen plover]

🙂

[fallen pulsar]

i managed to grow to full many times, its was a challenge and fun experience, i only say that pvp forcing kills the survival vibe

take Day Z as a survival game for example

[keen plover]

The Isle isn't like other survival games. The goal is to eat other players if you decide to pick the carnivore class. While AI can get you by as medium to large carnis.

It's a way to balance their numbers

[fallen pulsar]

ok then if thats the case its a pvp game

[keen plover]

AI is a mess rn

Well it is, yes

[fallen pulsar]

ok then, i understand now

i love the game, i really do

path of titans is a pvp game for me, i just wish that the isle can manage to become a true survival experience if thats even the idea

[coarse blaze]

PoT prioritizes being an MMO first while the Isle focuses more on surivial realism. Most herbivores and PTs don't have to engage in PVP at all if they don't want to.

[fallen pulsar]

can i ask you a question?

do you yourself work on the game?

[coarse blaze]

Of course not but I've played a lot of it.

[fallen pulsar]

why do i even bother then talking

[coarse blaze]

The things you're asking don't require those who have worked on the game to answer.

[fallen pulsar]

we just argue with our different opinions without any changes to be done

[coarse blaze]

It's not a opinion though, you can feed off AI or play another playable and avoid PVP all together. The game does have PVP elements, and community wise it's a big element at that but to call it a PVP game in terms of genre is pretty strange is all. 👍

I conceed it is PVP, it has to be in order to properly be a survival game but the way you framed it makes it sound more like a strict fighting-type game.

[fallen pulsar]

Players of this ''survival'' game should get too choose on their own what experience should they take, AI survival or PvP survival, both is esential. First of all there is not enough AI in the world, second is that even when players get to a boar for example fresly spawned, they cant even concider a fight because they get 2 shoted by a boar. So instead of AI surviving around the world they are forced to die in the center 20 times just to get their 3 diets and then AFK grow hiding in a bush.
That is not surival game, that is PvP forcing. I personaly dont like that afk part, i want to be able to explore and hunt either other players or AI animals at every part of the world, it doesnt need to give all diets, its totally fine to just fill the hunger overall.

it is possible even now with all of this as it is, but very very hard, i died manny times just from hunger \

water and deinos are great, o love that fear when i get close to drink it thats good, but even that has its own probles, like those bugged rocks

please correct me if i am mistaken, guide me where to spawn as Cera or Carno to surive first idk 30-50% without center

raptors and trodons do not interest me at all, they are their own story

[coarse blaze]

It is a survival game, it's advertised as such, the AI topic is heavily debated at the moment but I assure you that they do spawn. Spawning too many leads to issues with players growing too easily, spawning too little leaves people to starve far away from the center. Spiro (the current map) is pretty poor in design, you mentioned being new and I remember too starving to death at the edge because I wasn't aware where things were but it's all a learning experience.

Ideally spawning in as a tiny carnivore you can kill something much smaller, eat that and while it might not give you diet it'll fill you a little enough to help you grow in order to take on bigger prey. Not all diet can be obtained via AI, meaning corpses or hunting another player would be key if you want that specific diet type. It all depends on what you play really, I do understand the frustration of starving to death but really it's just learning the map.

Ideally carno does really well NW, it's open plains, has a safe drinking spot and boar/deer both spawn there along with rabbits. When you're bigger raptors also tend to be around which you can kill for S if need be. Or you can scavenge on their corpses as people tend to be around there.

Cera will do well anywhere with corpses, there's a little ravine (you might have fallen into it and died, everyone does once) near center that leads towards the beach. On a good day, on a populated server people tend to fall into it and die, giving you plenty of food; plus there's safe-ish water to drink too.

They're working on a new map which will be much, much nicer than what we have, there's an interactive map online for Spiro though. I too got lost alot when I started and died via starvation.

I apologize if I came off harsh, it was not my intention nor did I mean to sound argumentative if I did.

Also carno's hunger drain is really, really not great

[fallen pulsar]

I agree with the carno's drain totally... but we are here just for this exact reasons, to get the feedback, every thought is important, ty for the info on the spawn locations.

[coarse blaze]

Of course, right now things are rough a lot of it is balancing issues, the map isn't great, but ideally we'll have some really nice stuff soon to help out with some of the current issues.

Like you said, the game is in development afterall!

[fallen pulsar]

oh yea, the problem why i got here in the first place

so i got stuck like in a rock

and cant get out

what should i do? i mean like i glitched out of the map

[dusky surge]

Not even really mid-tier tbbh

[coarse blaze]

The pins in #evrima-na should be able to walk you through it! An admin might be able to unstuck you but it's a hard maybe. Another fault of Spiro.

[cosmic pelican]

@coarse blaze Sorry for being this late. I have plenty of time now to go through all the matchups in depth with you if you still have time.

[winter iris]

I noticed that the almighty Utah teleporting pounce is back in this update…and stronger than ever hahah

[mortal tundra]

https://tenor.com/view/pascal-pedro-pedro-pascal-discord-crying-gif-21761489

[coarse blaze]

No worries! I sadly wasn't around but I'll likely be around the same time today and within the early AMs/night!

[cosmic pelican]

Nice to hear! See you tomorrow then, hopefully!

[coarse blaze]

@ruby oar Night-time is incredibly important for babies trying to grow more often than not, it's very easy to get spotted looking for food during the day with how foliage doesn't render in at a distance but your character model does. Night-time works as a curtain for some species like young tenos and stegos who need to wander fields for food. (Baby ceras and carnos too get a better chance at nabbing some food before they get spotted by a larger carnivore.)

I do think NV looks lack-luster though and needs work, if the nights had a little more to them and a little more color I think it'd be far less of an issue because no one wants to see their pretty dinosaur all grey and dull because it's night.

[dusky surge]

@royal valve that's what the 4 call is meant to be

[royal valve]

yea but people just thinks its a help button

not really a move out the bloody way your abouta get destroyed

that call is called help

so a bit misleading

[coarse blaze]

Normally if I hear a 4 call I look for danger regardless

[dusky surge]

@white dagger Dev numbers

don't treat them as finished product

[white dagger]

i am providing feed back so they definately change em

[dusky surge]

okay but they will change it regardless

[white dagger]

dw i know they are subject to change

[white dagger]

and i am suggesting what to change it to

30 kmh sounds reasonable

[dusky surge]

30km/hr is still way too slow lol

[white dagger]

300 damage...

1.5k hp

[dusky surge]

DEV NUMBERS

[white dagger]

true

[dusky surge]

it's not getting a 300N biteforce

[white dagger]

it should bc funny

[slim dragon]

cry about it

[cosmic pelican]

I have time to test if youre available. Ill likely be around in the next 2 hours or so.

[coarse blaze]

I am actually! I again will not have admin as I am not apart of the Discord but previously the other person was able to just teleport and heal me.

[cosmic pelican]

Dont worry about that, I have admin. May I dm you so we dont clutter the channel?

[coarse blaze]

Of course, thank you for asking ahead of time!

[distant torrent]

part of me feels like dibble will suffer with cera’s current vomit like teno

and stego

[latent bay]

Tbf Dibble I'd imagine can rock a cera hard

[distant torrent]

I mean so can stego but the fact you can’t attack or even run while vomitting makes it easy to also be rocked hard by ceras

if it were up to me, I’d honestly remove the lock in its entirety for attacks that don’t involve biting

[keen plover]

It will. Anything slower will suffer vs cera

If you can puke, you’re probably not going to have a good time

[distant torrent]

very very true

[frail bobcat]

So horses are op against cera?

[wheat forum]

Why does everyone talk about nerving stegos but ignores the fact that Deinos are just as bad or even worse than a Stego lol

[keen plover]

Strong herbi exists

[dusky surge]

because carnivores cannot fathom the idea that a herbivore can stand against them and live consistently

[wheat forum]

True😂

[dusky surge]

I don't even like stego but goddamn deino is 3x worse

the only thing i like about stego is it humbles deinos

[wheat forum]

I play a lot of Stego and honestly the only thing I do is minding my own business and chill. However I do go kill Deinos if they are stupid enough to bite me I killed a handful but also got killed by a few. I also play a lot of raptor and I had a situation where I killed a Cera and had a Deino walk 100-150M inland to grab my kill and take it back to the water… tf am I mean to do lmao.

[graceful swallow]

I think stego is worse balance then deino as deino has to relatively stay in the water, and stego can go anywhere but deep water and still deal major damage to anything it wants with its biggest con being speed

deinos just own the rivers not much else they can do

full grown stego can go anywhere at any time and be in a good position to defend its self and usually does not get hunted down/killed by its own kind unlike deino

[slim dragon]

Stego does get killed by its own kind
Also stego isn't able to turn invisible and oneshot anything that needs to drink without warning