balance-feedback-discussion

[hollow canyon]

haha... ha

[placid bronze]

Because Bary and Kentro are not currently in the game, I'm thinking about stuff all at once, however things that arent in the game require more creative thoughts due to a lack of information. Cerato is implimented, so i have a base design and a observable character to base my thoughts off of, thus it requires infinitly less creativity

[analog mirage]

How about actually making Ceras vomit give it a upper hand in a fight after a vomit

[hollow canyon]

yes by for example increasing the damage taken by the target that has vomited instead of doing the useless debuff that it does now

[dusky surge]

vomit does give it an upper hand

[analog mirage]

Yes and no

[placid bronze]

That would help, i agree. However the point of cerato was to be a tanky corpse bully, not a high damage dealer for the most part

[dusky surge]

it literally prevents attacks, sprinting, it reduces stam, makes you more vulnerable to future vomits

it really doesnt need more than that

[placid bronze]

Only in the survival end of things. Durring combat its pretty negligable

[dusky surge]

i dont think vomit should be a combat tool

[placid bronze]

Vomit lock is no longer a thing

[dusky surge]

it should be a "don't mess with a cerato" thing

[analog mirage]

All the vomit really helps with is 2 seconds of free damage while the target vomits

[placid bronze]

Agreed

[dusky surge]

i am beyond aware

[placid bronze]

Then you cant claim that all those things are directly helpful in a fight when they cant be constantly spammed

[analog mirage]

It makes the opponent capable of not eating afterwards, but again this only applys after the fight

[dusky surge]

a hard reduction in stam isn't useful to you?

[hollow canyon]

its tanky... for its size

[analog mirage]

It still doesn’t help the Cerato actually survive a fight

[hollow canyon]

it's literally a midget though that doesn't even make the middle of the roster in size

so idk what you'd expect

[placid bronze]

Yes, im asking only for its size. This is something i need you to understand, i DO NOT want cerato to be a punch up character

[dusky surge]

i love the argument that cerato is supposed to be a "tank", despite the fact the devs have not ONCE ever referred to cerato as a tank in any context

that's an entirely community-provided role

[hollow canyon]

true

[placid bronze]

So when i say cerato isnt good enough of a character rn, i only mean for its size

[analog mirage]

It’s been called resilient is all

[hollow canyon]

ok, let's get something out of the way

[analog mirage]

Yet people consider that a tank

[hollow canyon]

what do you think is "its size"?

[placid bronze]

They havent said it, however they gave it damage reduction near corpese. Tank and damage reduction are linked in concept. If they gave cera damage reduction near corpes, clearly they had tanking on the mind

[hollow canyon]

because that's probably the main issue in this discussion

animals its size are things like Megalania, Kentro, Bary and maybe dibble if you stretch it

none of them are in the game

it has 4 animals that are larger than it and a bunch that it dwarfs and dumpsters

[placid bronze]

I consider Carno to be the extend of the things it should be able to combat, and that being only near a body.
When hunting the extent of its ability would be a difficult fight against the versatile Teno, and below that it would get progressively easier

[sonic flame]

Also half of those are likely punch up animals to compensate for low speed

[hollow canyon]

Carno is some 50% larger than it technically so idk about it being "its size"

[sonic flame]

Kentro and especially Diablo are likely throwing hands with Allo and Alberto out of necessity, it may not be comfortable for them, but they can’t exactly outrun those two

[hollow canyon]

and it could fight it if Carno didn't have a nuke on its charge

[placid bronze]

You are correct, carno is the only exception, and I should clarify that i only include it because its an ambush centered character, and thus should be less than viable in a drawn out fight

[hollow canyon]

Well there's a problem here

I don't think Carno is an ambush centred character at all

I think it's pretty garbage at that

and it's the best at group fights

[placid bronze]

Really?

[hollow canyon]

yea

Carno is at its best when you throw as many of them at the problem as you can

as nobody is capable of keeping track of a whole bunch of them and one of them will charge you at some point and that's when you die

[placid bronze]

Oh yeah, okay... so
This actually brings to mind, I advocate for pursuit hunter Carno. I want to throw the small tier focused charger out the window

[hollow canyon]

good point probably but depending on where Carno goes it can potentially be a big problem for Cerato

because it hits the target with a charge denying the target the ability to fight back due to CC

which is a problem for Cerato

[placid bronze]

You want to hear how i would rework Carno?
Its not relivent to a discussion about current balance, but its always fun

[hollow canyon]

as in a fight that goes well for Carno Carno can theoretically kill a Cerato with the latter being completely incapable of responding

I think it's very relevant to the balance in this game in general

it's probably the definition of a keystone species in Evrima

and likely will remain for the time being untill larger animals start being released

[placid bronze]

So is that a yes or...?

[hollow canyon]

sure

go for it, I think Carno is extremely relevant to this discussion

and just about any discussion barring maybe any about Stego and Deino

[analog mirage]

Which I do agree Carno should be able to kill stuff like Teno and cera in groups it’s almost too effective at it with how it’s set up

[hollow canyon]

it definitely needs a nerf in terms of group efficiency

literally best pack hunter in the game that puts Omni to shame

[placid bronze]

Alright. So first off-
Carno would get a speed nerf to that of 50 kmh, not much but it helps
Carno would recieve a substantial stamina buff, allowing it to run things down that try to escape
It would have its charge reworked to something similar, though rather than it knocking the opponent down, it would be a sidebash that reduces the speed of a running animal for a second, to simulate being off balance.
And for smaller things, as referenced from the concept art, it could have a pin using its foot to prevent light enough prey from escaping in the first place (This last one is up for debate whether or not it fits into a pursuit hunting playstyle)

[stark knoll]

60kmh is a speed buff

[placid bronze]

Additionally, it would recieve its old drift back, so you cant quick turn while running anymore

[hollow canyon]

stop - Carno is 55.5km/h

it's not a speed nerf at all

[placid bronze]

Oh is it? Im dumb, must be thinking about legacy

maybe im just mentally defitient

[hollow canyon]

Legacy was even slower

52km/h or something iirc

[placid bronze]

lemme just... Yeah im mentally defitient.
50!

50 speed

[hollow canyon]

ok, fair

[analog mirage]

Carnos whole thing is being the fastest and it should stay that way

[stark knoll]

I think it used to be 65 before the global speed nerf

[dusky surge]

i dont see the need to nerf the speed, personally

[hollow canyon]

I like it

ngl I like it quite a bit

[analog mirage]

Just…why

[placid bronze]

Oh it should, being fast actually exactly what helps pursuit hunting

[placid bronze]

Why would i rework it in such a way?

[analog mirage]

I’m not sure either

[hollow canyon]

I don't think Carno needs to be quite as ridiculously fast as it is

[stark knoll]

Yea speed is fine as is but the rest of it is nice, depending on how substantial the stam buff is

[analog mirage]

How much runtime does Teno currently have?

[hollow canyon]

90 seconds

[placid bronze]

I reckon it would be what current stego is (that is debatable), as well as nerf that crap on stego to about half of what it is

[analog mirage]

And Carno is 75? Correct?

[hollow canyon]

60

[analog mirage]

I was off

[hollow canyon]

Stego is 75

Teno would not be on the menu

at all with those changes

[analog mirage]

I’d give Carno 75-80 seconds of runtime

[hollow canyon]

Carno can't touch it without its CC because of Teno's CC and bleed

so I wouldnt worry about Teno

[analog mirage]

Carno doesn’t really seem like it would be that great at CC except with using charge which if someone knows to move out of the way they will

[hollow canyon]

no, no, I mean in this case it would slow them

not knock them down

"charge reworked to something similar, though rather than it knocking the opponent down, it would be a sidebash that reduces the speed of a running animal for a second"

although I think one second could be a bit too little unless it slows them down to a halt or something

or at least very severely

[analog mirage]

That’s why I’d rather just keep the knockdown

[placid bronze]

My first though was 25% speed reduction for a second

[hollow canyon]

knockdown with high damage is broken on an animal that fast imo

[hollow canyon]

that's nothing, would be kind useless

[placid bronze]

Lemme grab a calculator real quick...

teno current speed is 40 kmh right

[hollow canyon]

you would slow down e.g. a Teno to 30km/h for a second before it moves just as fast again

not good

[placid bronze]

Right

So perhaps 2 and a half seconds?

[hollow canyon]

the issue is either the duration or how strong the debuff is

[placid bronze]

I personally wouldnt have the debuff that extreme to begin with, so i focus on the duration

[hollow canyon]

I think 3 seconds sounds nice, depending on how difficult it would be to hit

this would really be a small game hunting tool

[placid bronze]

You'd have to hit the things side body, like Pachy body fracture

[hollow canyon]

this isn't something you try to use vs Teno or Cerato

[analog mirage]

You need to consider the Carno also needs to stop and turn around

So slowing someone down is only useful if the Carno can get a bite or two in

[hollow canyon]

I'm more in favour of just one tbh

[placid bronze]

I reckon that slowing the thing down, and with the proximity of the attack, you'd have the time to get 1 hit in with a normal bite

[hollow canyon]

the only issue is if Carno that's faster runs past a target

and then has to turn around and pick up speed again

that could let the target just run away again

because Carno accelerates some 3 seconds itself

[placid bronze]

It would certainly be very difficult to hunt a teno due to tail and kick, though i wouldnt say impossible. I advocat for the probability of success, not possability lol

[hollow canyon]

no, I don't think it would be possibly unless Teno is really bad

without the charge Teno doesn't touch it

unless it can deny it the use of the kick and the tail

[placid bronze]

Thats right, its early for me, my brain hasnt caught up. Forgive that.
Its accel would get buffed up too lmao
Pursuit hunting is a wet dream if you cant accel well

[hollow canyon]

Teno mauls it

yea, that would make sense

[placid bronze]

Teno probably would maul it yeah. The probability of a carno beating a teno in a 1v1 with these changes are pretty small admittedly

Not that balancing should be done around groups. It is worth bringing up that 3 carnos would still have a good shot at taking out 2 or 3 tenos with such a change

[hollow canyon]

No, not really, Tenos would murder them

since the charge doesn't stop Teno from tailslamming and kicking

Carno would charge, slow Teno down by 10km/h while Teno would do

https://tenor.com/view/jo-jo-jjba-star-platinum-anime-ora-ora-gif-21354005

while Carno is stunned

[placid bronze]

Matchup diff i guess lmao

Its still not impossible, thats all i care about

[hollow canyon]

it's possible if Teno players all have internet trouble or something but no decent Teno should be losing that in this game

I'm still fine with it because it gives Carno a specific speciality

[placid bronze]

Thats getting into luck terretory, something that has no place in balance discussions

[hollow canyon]

in which it doesn't hunt Teno but it's actually really good at hunting smaller animals

[placid bronze]

I disagree with it not hunting Teno, though i do entirely see what you mean when you say it cant, i just choose to have faith in my carno kit lol

Oh uh, back to the touchy subject of cerato real quick.
If you wanted more creative thinking, I did have a thought a couple days ago that I didnt bring up. I considered it irrelivent to the discorse about cera getting damage reduction.

[dusky surge]

teno should maul solo carnos every time

it should require a group to work

[placid bronze]

But I'll say it now.
I personally thing that the charge bite should be given a button prompt of some sort.
When used normally cera would just bite somethings side, but if you hit the button prompt, cera would run up along the side of an opponent and bite the back of its neck, dealing headshot damage, and simulating how jaguars attack camen. Something that you can look at the concept art to see a cerato doing to a small deino.
The prompt would only show up near the hinde legs at a close specific angle, so it isnt an easy thing to get by any means, and it wouldnt lock the prey into an animation either, so something like teno could still kick or tail the cerato

[placid bronze]

For the most part yeah

[eager ledge]

Indeed 👍

[novel walrus]

@compact bolt judging by the concept art of baryonix i think its gonna be the one to do that.

[novel walrus]

@charred idol you want deino to be nerfed despite it being very weak compared to crocs in real life.

[charred idol]

It isn't weak.

[novel walrus]

If its low on stam you can escape. Irl crocs will lodge prey under logs and other stuff to secure the kill. This guy needs to hold on

Also theres so many places to drink that are relatively safe. And its severely player based. It relies on dinos coming to that exact spot of all spots to drink.

[frail bobcat]

croc is like the strongest playable rn

[novel walrus]

Yes because its the only apex amongst stego. If it wasnt that powerful would water really be that scary?

I hate being grabbed by a croc and never even play the species cause i think its booring. But i dont find it that bad

[frail bobcat]

I would like to have a chance to dodge the freaking croc when I am drinking. it isnt scary, its annoying because there is no counterplay

[novel walrus]

Just dont drink at the popular unsafe areas

[charred idol]

It needs to be nerfed. You cannot have an overpowered move like that in a game and not balance it out with some high risk in return. Currently, there is nothing. The stamina it currently consumes is pathetic. I shouldn't be able to lunge and instantly kill a player. I understand croc mains want their armored legend, but it needs a weakness, much like irl Crocs can get got via a small shot to the back of the skull or how it does have a predator of its own.
Yes the water would be scary still. This isn't about fear it's about making it balanced.

[frail bobcat]

"how do you make a playable bearable?"

"Avoid it entirely"

[charred idol]

I've seen several players clip through rocks to drink. You shouldn't HAVE to do that to drink water. You should know you can escape, but have the braincell to understand that it's most definitely not 100% guarantee

[novel walrus]

You dont need to do that. The chance of there actually being a deino where u drink if you spend atleast 1 minute thinking about the spot ur gonna go to without standing right by it the chances of a deino being right there is relatively low

[charred idol]

My point is to make the rmb less effective. As it stands right now it's horrendously powerful and needs a countermeasure for mid/high tier carni or herbi

I know, btw.

[frail bobcat]

I sure do like a playable that can instadelete almost the entire roster with no chance to counterplay

[sturdy mirage]

I forgot to mention earlier: Deinosuchus will be adjusted in the future anyways.

[novel walrus]

If the players who played the entire roster spent a few minutes using their brain maybe it wouldnt be so bad. Deino cant kill you unless you decide to go where it is.

[charred idol]

Let's hope that actually does something. Wouldn't that be.........Lucky.

[frail bobcat]

I need to go where it is. it resource camps water

[frail bobcat]

lets hope it makes lunge more fair

[novel walrus]

And crocs irl dont?

[frail bobcat]

why is that relevant?

[novel walrus]

Because theyre pretty much the same

Crocs drag prey down. Deino drag prey down.

[frail bobcat]

did I ever complain about it being like a irl croc? I complained because there is no counterplay for deino and no skill needed to play it

[novel walrus]

Counterplay: stop drinking at the popular spots
Skill needed: sneaking perfectly up on someone

The amount of times ive avoided a croc is outweighing the amoutn of times ive been grabbed by atleast 10x

Go on a free admin server. Get admin. Spectate around and look at the maps watersoirces and rivers. Look under them too so you can find shallow spots. Suddently drinking isnt so scary

[frail bobcat]

The perfect sneaking, right? where there is no way to see the croc when its not going fast? In what world do you consider this a skill.

let me just slowly walk up to something, without it having a way of noticing me and then instadeleting it

[novel walrus]

Did you ever play deino?

[frail bobcat]

yes

I never once failed a ambush

because its so goddamn brainless

[novel walrus]

Then you would know that it needs to be pretty deep in water before its completely invis through the surface

[novel walrus]

Like 90% of isles playerbase

[frail bobcat]

you can hide a big sub in the crossing of south spawn

[golden coral]

Counterplay = Just dont interact with it. Sure, it works, but its terrible and unfun. Much better to make proper counterplay instead. Turns out, a croc playing like a croc is not a good or fun design.

[novel walrus]

Thats correct. But the shallow parts are there for a reason

Or do you not use those?

[golden coral]

Also you can't see deino at all if it's deep enough, no "sneaking" needed really

[frail bobcat]

I use them

because I know if it dont, I get instadeleted with no counterplay

[golden coral]

Generally, shallow spots just mean deino can't attack there at all. If everyone used them, deinos would just starve (well, no since cannibals, but that needs to go)

[novel walrus]

Also south spawn isnt a proper excuse. Theres a shallow spot. And decently shallow spot. And a deep spot which is instant cross for anything

[charred idol]

Sounds like someone's never seen the Capybara and the plethora of Crocs around it doing nothing. Same with hippos. Cuz the croc knows it can get got. Currently only a stego has that effect, and if it's a baby then that's literally nothing on the roster is feasibly effective against it or provides a proper counter.
Deino needs a counter. You cannot have a godly creature, it needs flaws and ways for you to escape the bite.

Deinos do not sneak whatsoever they swim underwater as per usual and click a singular button. That's not balanced, nor is it realistic. I've seen prey move master than these dinosaurs and there's some pretty speedy ones we have. By your own logic with realism, smaller dinos should be able to jump out of reach in a 50/50 ratio, with the hitbox increasing on a lost 50/50 so it grabs as if grabbing a leg and mosses entirely if it's a won ratio. But that would be "broken" wouldn't it?
Why isn't deino broken with an all-roster instakill as one of the beefiest and heaviest damage output dinos right now that's supposed to have issues with prey due to being reliant on water and very slow on land? Why should I just sit back and eat popcorn as I drown and lose 5 hours of progress because some deino who sat there for two minutes and pressed W to move forward then RMB to lunge got a catch on me and I cannot do anything?

[frail bobcat]

that was just a example of a pretty shallow spot that perfectly hide a croc

[golden coral]

Deino is the most op playable overall, and most certainly needs to be adjusted at the least. And there's no reason to not make the lunge interaction better and more interesting. Same for pounce/buck and so on.

But at least with potential water clarity and shallower lakes and so on for Gateway, deinos might struggle at least a bit.

[frail bobcat]

that is the half the reason I am excited for Gateway

[golden coral]

Best option, just disable deino, problem solved! Or downsize it to 5-6T, would also help a bit.

[charred idol]

Yeah same. As much as I play deino, I really do get tired of seeing it thrive. I want it to have trouble for a change. I want it to feel like a creature, not creative mode.

[dusky surge]

i like the idea of deino counterplay, but i disagree with certain parts of that feedback

i like the idea of deino dropping due to damage

but not if they're also taking damage from their prey

[charred idol]

With claws and teeth, it's the most logical and easiest way to make it let go

[dusky surge]

yea, but that makes counterplay brainless too

i LOVE the idea of working together to force the deino to drop

but solo players should be pretty screwed comparatively

[charred idol]

Everything I said is ideas as separate

[dusky surge]

also, yes, basking should def be a thing

[charred idol]

Solo needs a chance too. If not damaging the croc the Stam drain as a solo dino needs to be bigger.

[dusky surge]

at some point you end up with deino just... not being able to do anything because lunge punishes it in every way

yes, lunge needs a nerf, 100%

deino is an egrigiously unfun and overpowered animal

[charred idol]

Yeeeeeee

I'm open to exploring the ideas I put down further for sure. It's 6:33am so I may be didn't explain good n can elaborate but I'm also down to discussing new ideas or even combos

[dusky surge]

like, i REALLY like the idea of deino being forced to bask for any form of good stam regen, because it limits deinos ability to constantly ambush

basking should, in itself, be a mechanic, so deino can act as gators do in real life, basking in the day and hunting in the night

[charred idol]

Yuppers, that's what I was thinking too.

As someone from the south, gators are ambush preds yes but they can lose their bigger catch. Deino should too. Likewise, they love to float, and lunging with all that mass should really suck.

Basking is like a recharge for them. They love the sun from what I've seen. Retreat into water when startled. So it definitely makes a lot of sense

[dusky surge]

yea, it would force them to reveal themselves, outlining areas of high deino activity, and exposing to potential apex predators

[charred idol]

Deino also 100% can survive off fish. They do not actively need to hunt dinos. I've done so as a maxed croc.

[dusky surge]

oh, 100%

[charred idol]

Some deino told me they can't
I laughed

[dusky surge]

a huge issue with deino is the ease-of-growth, something Dondi has said he is going to be beating to death

[novel walrus]

I dont understand why they made it drain hunger faster in 6.5

[charred idol]

Fantastic

[dusky surge]

deino players assume just because the animal is a big carnivore, it's hard

it is literally one of the easiest growing experiences in the game, the "difficulty" is how long it takes

[novel walrus]

It was fine before that

[dusky surge]

it... really wasn't?

U6 deino was one of the most ridiculous examples of poor balancing ever seen in the history of the game

[novel walrus]

I only mean hunger wise

[charred idol]

Big beast needs hunger to die fast is my guess. The bigger you are the more you need to eat. That's the expectation. But there's so much fish AI that it's genuinely moot

Especially the elite fish

[dusky surge]

honestly, deino SHOULDN'T need to eat that much, but given everything else it has going on, faster starvation is at least helpful in SLIGHTLY curbing them

[gloomy barn]

Full grown american gators can eat up to 20 lbs of food in a sitting and eat up to 50 times a year, usually once a week.

[olive wraith]

@mortal tundra What is the max speed of Carno and Galli?

[dusky surge]

for carno, 55.5km/hr

for galli, depends on diet and if they have a call boost

[olive wraith]

Yeah with all boost

[dusky surge]

call boost, a bit below 70km/hr

without, on 3 nutrients, 55.4km/hr

idk the exact numbers for 0, 1 and 2 nutrients

i think the call boost is 69.7km/hr, but not entirely sure

[olive wraith]

Are you sure the call boost increases speed? All info i could gather (from 2 wikis) say it increases fellow packmates speed to match the leaders :/

[dusky surge]

call boost def increases speed

[stark knoll]

It does both

[slim dragon]

It does increase speed for everyone

[dusky surge]

also don't trust wikis lol

they aren't officially moderated or fact-checked

anyone can say anything as if it were fact

[olive wraith]

It's normally quite reliable

[dusky surge]

literally every time I've checked any Isle wiki, it's always wrong about something. I essentially never rely on it for info

[slim dragon]

Personnally I rely on wavepoole for info on a specific mechanic or a dino's stats

[dusky surge]

the call boost only works with nearby groupmates, which may be causing confusion

a solo galli can't use it at all

nor can a galli seperated from the group

[olive wraith]

Is there any solid info on the exact speed?

[slim dragon]

Wait you sure about that ? I think it worked last time I played galli

[dusky surge]

almost certain, unless there's some bug causing that

the way the thing is supposed to work is that it only works with groups

as in, it needs to detect another grouped galli within a specific range, if it can, it gives any member within the range (and the caller) the speed boost

[slim dragon]

Hmm, you know what I think about herd-reliant animals
Although a galli is arguably still viable solo

[dusky surge]

you can actually watch the speed increase

hence why i know the numbers

i've watched them spike to a near 70km/hr level

while a bunch of gallis called near me

[olive wraith]

That's mad... does it work better if there's more members or is it just 2+?

[dusky surge]

it's a very short duration and it has a cooldown, so you can't maintain that speed without a ton of gallis calling to make up for the parts where the buff isn't active

[dusky surge]

it works better with alternation thanks to the cooldown

if someone uses the boost, use it afterwards to keep it going for longer

[olive wraith]

So it's not limited to the group leader?

[dusky surge]

galli's design is well done, where it can survive fine without help, but prospers from it

you know, like a herding animal done right

[olive wraith]

As in who gets to activate it..

[dusky surge]

any one member can do it. The group leader simply can provide a passive buff to nearby groupmates to buff their speed, should their diets be worse than the leaders

that's what makes the leader special

a healthy leader passively buffs other members

[olive wraith]

Ok, thanks for the info.

[dusky surge]

but yea, any call counts, regardless of status within the group

[olive wraith]

Noted

@tiny depot Your balance feedback suggests Cera is faster than Pachy... that doesn't sound right.

Pachy is 41.8km/h
Cera is 40.2km/h

[dusky surge]

yea, but cera can keep up

honestly surprisingly well

like if you told me cera was as fast, i would believe you

i dont know why this is, but cera seems to be capable of being constantly on a pachy's tail

[alpine plover]

hello i just read some of the conversation and i have to say crocs can stay about 4 months without eating depending the body they eat XD

so that's wrong my friend, crocos don't need to have a faster food drain

also thinking that people drinks in safe spots or in bugged places and depending the dinosaur it won't be all the time drinking

so basically deino must keep that hunger drainage

[hollow canyon]

crocos also need to stay in sun to be able to move, should that be added to the game too?

[alpine plover]

That could be a good thing to add to the game

And in irl crocos gotta do it so it can be a nice fact for make people don't stay in water all the time waiting to ambush and if they run out of o2 they will go a little bit far and get air, but if they can keep moving the croc will finally end killing the other player, so it can be a good mechanic for make other player can notice about the croc, also will make the game more realistic

So i like your idea

If you decide to suggest it in any feedback channel i will definetly vote yes

[hollow canyon]

Idk if this would be a good addition, you'd effectively force a player to sit in a single spot for some time.

My point is that realism sometimes has to step aside for the sake of playability.

Although I'm kind of 50/50 on this solution, it could maybe work but I'm afraid it'd end up being boring.

The game's a bit of an afk simulator already

[alpine plover]

Devs would def try to find a point to balance it

[hollow canyon]

fair enough

[alpine plover]

That's true

But for croc, who is a patient predator, shouldn't be a problem

For example i also don't like one thing about teno, i feel i'm playing a drinking simulator

So def there's things that gotta be change in the game

[hollow canyon]

true

[alpine plover]

But we can't start saying "this game sucks" because literally when you are about to buy it says the game is in development

[hollow canyon]

it makes sense that if you're playing a predator that relies on waiting then you should be ready to do some well... waiting

[alpine plover]

Yep

Also if the dino you are about to lunge is going to drink but it's not close enough and you attack you will lose your meal, so that's the point of be a deino, you must be a patient player for like this main

I saw some people who says deino is not fun, that's because they like action, but for example me i love deino gameplay more than all the other dinos

and it's not supposed to be a fun dino for all the people

Just for a few people

[alpine plover]

@charred idol the point of deino is that you don't see it coming💀

[charred idol]

My entire point is to give it counterplay so people can survive when they get basic survival necessities (water.) The gator doesn't need an instakill.

[obtuse ocean]

Why cant it have instakill? So will every apex in the game do to what the deino can grab. I get the stealth thing. But the fact that people are trying to balance something that will have much more problem when bary/sucho/spino and cherius will come is strange.

[charred idol]

Because an instakill on something the same size is absurd. Which is where this came from originally. No attack in the game should be a guaranteed W. that's unfair to the players. Every apex that'll grab should have a set mechanic to allow a chance to survive. In a gameplay perspective, an instakill is terrible.

By this logic, the utah pounce shouldn't get thrown off. The tenontos slam should pin. The stegos tail should one shot anything if you strike the head. The Troodons venom should be permanent with only an antidote founding x y z area maybe
Do you see the issue yet?

[obtuse ocean]

Deino will never instakill anything it cant grab. An apex will never instakill another apex or same ish size. But a deino instakilling a omni is exactly how it should be

[golden coral]

Pretty sure there'll be "one shot" attacks on things smaller, that's not an issue. The issue with deino is more so how the lunge works and the lack of counter/evasion, than "it kills you if it lands the attack"

[charred idol]

I'm talking about drowning. They shouldn't be able to drown something of equal size. A small prey, obviously yes? That's literally stupid to have a 2 inch dino not be one shot by a hulking mass of scales.

Yes exactly

[golden coral]

Yes well, deino currently can't drown something of equal size

[charred idol]

It shouldn't be able to kill you immediately if it lands a grab and turns into the water.

It did to me.

[golden coral]

It has to be twice the weight of the target to use the lunge

[obtuse ocean]

But what equal size in game ? Stego is the only thing ?

[golden coral]

What might have happened is most likely that it was way heavier than it looked

[charred idol]

I'm talking about the bigger dinosaurs. Like tenontos and ceratos. Those have claws and powerful tails respectively. They should be able to damage and wiggle should they have the Stam use to fight for their life
Wiggling and draining stamina is literally useless if you get grabbed since their stun duration afterwards is nothing compared to their swimming speed. You literally just die no matter what unless you get lucky and escape from higher depth.

[obtuse ocean]

They are small as hell compared to deino lol

They are litterly the small sized dinos , maybe the low end mid

[charred idol]

It needs to have something done so higher tier preds or herbis can escape given the chance. This is a SEMI realistic game. The deino should get nerfed with it's rmb.
Easy prey is not how this game works. The point is to fight for your food. The deino can stockpile bodies in a moment's notice and now you have 6 of them.
The deino I met wasn't at all much bigger. Maybe it was depth perspective or something but I was an almost fully grown tenonto and those things are rather big.

[obtuse ocean]

Look at the weight compared to those you are talking to, its huge diffrent. I get the stealth and easy grow for now. But instakill for sure vs something that small. It might needs "counter to stealth"

[charred idol]

The entire point is to make an instakill not exist drowning and deinos is too powerful and needs to be tweaked. I shouldn't have to give up hours of progress because someone afked in a river long enough to see blue splashes. That's just asinine.

The weight shouldn't matter. You can escape a shark attack irl by jabbing the eyes, why shouldn't I be able to escape a deino in a similar way?
I'm not sure why an instant kill is being defended.

[obtuse ocean]

Ofcourse it should, you saying a rex gonna ambush you as a teno and bite you. And then you gonna laugh and run from it ?

[charred idol]

My guy please read.
I'm all in about BIGGER HERBI/PREDS.

[latent bay]

While I agree deino should be made somewhat fairly unlike the mess it is currently, Tenontosaurus and Ceratosaurus are both the smallest mid tiers of their faction currently and potentially the smallest miss of their factions in the game ever

[charred idol]

like ceratos, tenontos, MAYBE Utah's but I doubt that whatsoever. Maybe from baby deinos, etcetera

[golden coral]

Cerato and teno aren't large though?

And I doubt a rex biting down on a cera is going to do anything less than a one shot

Maybe not with a basic attack (that'd be silly honestly) but with a secondary attack, most likely

[charred idol]

No taco, no troodon, no beipi, no ptera, etc should be able to escape. The are too small. Dinos with ACTUAL DANGER to a deino even if it's 10% damage should be allowed to fight for their life. Especially since apparently E doesn't do anything but make you wiggle?? Who's bright idea was that like lmao.

They are big enough to deal damage. That's the thing. I shouldn't have a dino that can dish out some powerful bites and not be able to fight free to some degree.

[golden coral]

Same with how stego with it's new swings might indeed one shot things carno size on body because well, that's a full power swing

E doesn't do anything when you're lunged

[charred idol]

That's what I said

[golden coral]

It only applies to being pounced (not pinned)

Well you said it makes you wiggle, it does not :p

[charred idol]

It actually does. Was confirmed last night

[golden coral]

What?... No, you struggle automatically when you're lunged?

[charred idol]

Must've misunderstood then.

Regardless, E should do something. Deno is too OP.

especially with drowning. You should be able to escape as a minimum of a 75% grown mid tier size dino

[golden coral]

The issue is mostly how easily deino can land the attack, not how powerful it is

[charred idol]

At the very least gave a chance.

[golden coral]

But you're massively overstating the size, cera and teno are not mid tier, carno barely is

[obtuse ocean]

Not for those small dinos you mention. Instakill those would be 100% good. I do agree on the stealth tho, since its rng now

[charred idol]

Said that ronn.

[charred idol]

^

[golden coral]

But if a teno or cera gets lunged, even a carno, it should just die

The issue is that curerntly there's little to no way to avoid being lunged, aside from just not interacting with deino areas at all

Whereas you can dodge a stego, and most likely a rex as well

[charred idol]

No. that's still too big to instakill. They should be able to fight off the deino in some capacity, even if it's weaker than larger press or herbi

preds*

[golden coral]

It's not really too big, they're, barely a quarter of deino size

You can't seriously think a cera or teno should survive if a rex bites down on it, right?

[obtuse ocean]

I wonder where he goes with this balance

[golden coral]

It's already questionable that they can survive a body shot from a stego

Considering it'd very much be death if you got those thagomizers through your body

[charred idol]

If you stood next to a deino its tail included makes it pretty large. It's primary damage comes from kicks and tail slams. A powerful herbi like that should be able to at the very least claw the deino.
Ceratos Literally has vomit bite use it and hit and a few times later the deino would let you go because of it's reduced stats.

If the dino is bigger than the head of the opponent, it should have a chance to live.

[stark knoll]

Deino cannot vomit and doesn't get affected by cera's bacteria

[charred idol]

How have I vomited before then? I swear I've vomited as deino

[stark knoll]

You haven't

It's never been capable of vomiting

[obtuse ocean]

You have so much more stam/agility/speed then a deino, you have so much more options to hunt. But a deino is something you should stay far away from. And if it does catches you it deserves it. ( even tho it might needs some stealth nerf )

[alpine plover]

Deino can't vomit XDDD

[charred idol]

Either way my point stands. Deino needs a damage threshold or something to help you escape as a mid tier dino

[alpine plover]

And well let's say a teno weights is 1.600 kg and deino weights is 8.000kg, it will obviously kill u

[charred idol]

It shouldn't have an instakill if it rmb you. There needs to be a middle ground and there is none.

[alpine plover]

Deino is the most balanced apex rn at my point of view

[charred idol]

It is not. I've played deino several times and it is DISGUSTINGLY op

[obtuse ocean]

Same, but i only feed on dumb people

[alpine plover]

Not really

[charred idol]

A tank that can have all the food it wants just because in the process of making the thing, someone decided that having no escape + no minor indicator was the best idea ever.

[alpine plover]

Actually u can leave

[golden coral]

Do not mistake visual size for actual size/weight. Teno is not powerful compared to deino, nor is cera.

[alpine plover]

If the deino is low stamina

[alpine plover]

Fr lol

[golden coral]

Oh no, it's stupidly OP, but not because of the reason Espan thinks

Stego is by far more balanced, hilariously enough, despite everyones complaints about it

[charred idol]

There should be no reason that a ceratos, tenontos, carno and other dinos of similar size shouldn't be able to escape.

I know about the low stamina thing. If a deno is sitting in water for 99% of its life it will always have stamina. That is where this crocodile is broken. If it is going to instakill it needs to have something done to its stamina Regen and loss.

[golden coral]

But the issue isn't that deino can one shot a small tier/very low end of midtier, the issue is how it does it, the lack of counterplay, and everything else about deino that makes it op

[alpine plover]

Stego is actually op

[golden coral]

Cera/teno are "tiny", you wouldn't expect them to survive a rex crush, or a trike gore, so why would they survive a deino lunge or stego swing

[alpine plover]

If it was a tanky dino but it hit's low damage people won't play it as a killer machine

[charred idol]

I do expect them to survive reasonable attacks. If a deino lunges and you are not dead you should be able to do something about it. Auto wiggling does JACK for you.

[golden coral]

No, stego is nowhere near op, all you have to do is compare with deino, or even some of the others (like how ptera is one of, if not the best, at sheer survival) and so on

[golden coral]

The issue there is more so that the deino has to drown you, and it takes a while

Could maybe speed up the drowning and make it feel "better" or more accurate

Since it's meant to grab you while you're alive, and drown you, so there'll be a few moments of "oh crap"

[charred idol]

If I'm grabbed and it takes only 20% of my hp, what's the point of even trying to fight if the deino literally just has to hold rmb and your dino is a slow swimmer so all the deino has to do is wait like a singular second from the initial stun of letting go and then swim to you to proceed to spam bite kill you.

I might as well go grab a snack and something to drink

[golden coral]

Yep, when you're grabbed, you might as well, you're meant to be dead

The problem is more so it takes a bit for the deino to get there, hence the boring part

But if drowning was way faster, that'd fix that part at least

[alpine plover]

Safe spots

[charred idol]

You should be when you reach a certain size.
You wouldn't be immediately dead. That is gross and should not exist. You need counterplay to something like that or it HAS to be high risk higher reward.

Safe spots do nothing

[golden coral]

Could also if neccesary speed up playbles swim speed so if the deino does let you go instead of drowning you, you can swim away (or just not have the target lose stam, just oxygen, would also fix it)

[charred idol]

The best I can do is go waaaaaaay into the far ends of the river and hope

[golden coral]

Some safe spots work, but that comes with its own issues of lack of interaction

[alpine plover]

Def that's not a solution

Maybe make deino don't run out of stam the dinos he lunge

That would make them able to sprint swim

[charred idol]

Deino should loose a lot more stamps actually.

Stam*

If you lunge, make it count. Cuz now over 50% of your Stam is gone.

[alpine plover]

💀💀💀

How are you gonna lose 50% for lunge

[charred idol]

It's a hulking mass of several kg of scales and fat.
I wonder why.

[alpine plover]

It's heavy but his muscles are strong af

Def lose 50% stam is not a solution

[charred idol]

It's throwing that weight around after sitting forever. I doubt they cannot adjust it so that way it loses more stamina. Maybe not 50% but it needs to be more. I shouldn't be able to lunge more than twice or at best thrice.

[alpine plover]

Also idk when but when gateway gets realesed there will be a lot of places where deinos can't kill other dinos

[golden coral]

Would fix it from what I can tell. Also I literally said the whole "make it not drain stamina".

[charred idol]

That was stated. Someone just decided to continue the conversation.

[golden coral]

No doubt we'll still have too many deinos on gateway

[alpine plover]

See a gateway exploration, some youtubers have videos of it, there's not just a main river, there's also lakes so deinos won't be everywhere

[charred idol]

I know.

[hasty coyote]

I have kinda glanced over the convo, but I wanted to throw in my own 2 cents. The problem with deino isn’t the insta death with lunge, I honestly think that should stay. However, getting in range to lunge should be the issue, as with all other dinos with 1-shot moves. Deino has to rely on stealth to ambush, but right now it’s incredibly easy to sneak past. As long as you’re underwater, you’re practically invisible. So there should be ways for a deino to reveal itself while underwater, that way they are forced to actually try to sneak. Such as making ripples while moving too fast, or having the water be clearer in lakes, but have vegetation for crocs to hide in.

[alpine plover]

Yep

U don't do any sound underwater while u sprint

[hasty coyote]

My whole idea is here: #general-feedback message

[alpine plover]

Deino should move so slowly to sneak on the prey

I don't think a 8 tons giant crocodile doesn't does any sound in the water

[charred idol]

They should give off bubbles after X time of sitting still.

[alpine plover]

For example

[hasty coyote]

That I probably wouldn’t do. Sitting still is the name of the game. If you found an amazing hiding spot, you should be rewarded, not punished. You should be punished for finding a bad hiding spot and be forced to move toward your prey.

The oxygen timer already forced you to reveal yourself eventually anyway.

[alpine plover]

Guys imma go sleep it's late in my country :v

[hasty coyote]

Cya then

[alpine plover]

Cya

[golden coral]

Could make the argument that finding a good hiding spot is just that, one that covers or otherwise makes such bubbles unnoticable, and that that, plus slight noise unless very carefully sneaking up on the target, plus clarity of water, would make it properly difficult but rewarding to get a kill as deino

[hasty coyote]

I still find it odd to punish the Dino, who is supposed to sit still and wait, for sitting still and waiting.

[golden coral]

Only if they sit still in the wrong place?

[tall bronze]

Periodic bubbles will always be a Deino idea I despise for that exact reason

Deino being invisible in water would be fine if it had more nuance to it, such as water clarity (which is confirmed fortunately), more sensitive waves, and not being able to see above water

[charred idol]

There needs to be a way to know they're there if they camp. Even in murky water you and we gators by light refractions inside the water.

Ugh typos

[tall bronze]

Camping is the whole shtick of Deino though

[hasty coyote]

That would be done by forcing them to move, and moving causing the disturbance. Though I understand your thinking, I still think it’s a bit counterintuitive and limiting. Like where would a croc be able to get food where it can hide itself, not move much to reach prey, have prey come often enough to sustain it, be able to hide while regaining O2, and also be able to cover up bubbles if it stays too still. Any place like that would just be noted down and have no one go there.

[tall bronze]

That'd be like punishing Herreras for being in trees too much

[mortal tundra]

@hasty coyote Do you play hypsi..?

[hasty coyote]

They have to surface for oxygen eventually. Or you can try and spot them/a place they couldn’t hide.

[hasty coyote]

What gave it away?

[mortal tundra]

You have correct spelling, grammar, and punctuation.

[hasty coyote]

Thanks, I generally try to write correctly so it can be understood correctly.

[charred idol]

god me too. Now if my phone would like to agree with me,..

[mortal tundra]

99% of people I've played with do not do that. Lol

[golden coral]

That's why we'd need things floating on the surface, or spots underwater (like in a log) that wouldn't allow for the bubbles to reach the surface, and similar ideas. But sure, forcing them to move would also work, but I also don't think it's bad if a deino has to "sneak up", and why would they if they can just lie as close to the shoreline already as to lunge from there. If you want them to move, you'd also need them to not be able to be close enough for a lunge without moving, if it's meant to put them at risk of being noticed and avoided?

[charred idol]

The river is vast. Some bubbles or indicators will only confirm a deino is there, but not ensure they're staying. They will need to move, letting the river truly feel dangerous since now there's deinos changing locations after that spot is "used"

[hasty coyote]

As I put in the message, water clarity. If you’re sitting right at the surface with no cover, then you’re likely going to be spotted. Also, if I saw a spot where I can’t see the bottom and see a log/something on the surface a deino could use to hide, then I’d avoid that area like the plague. So I’d imagine that most those good places to hide would be noted as no-go-zones by the community. Let me make a crude drawing of my main point, brb.

[hasty coyote]

The main issue I see is the limiting of consistent hunting grounds to only certain spots. This could be good or bad, if my idea is too leniant, then we could add the bubbles. However, I mainly see it ending up where either all the waters are covered in debris (in which case we are back to square one) or all the good hunting spots are known and just avoided. This crude drawing of a map should suffice. Essentially, the red spots would be places where debris could hide the bubbles, so the only good camping areas with your idea. While without the bubbles, the areas in orange would be areas deinos could camp. Brown streak is a murky river (easy to hide, but too much area to all be camped), light green area is a swamp (easy to camp but most inhabitants there have ways to deal with you or can find shallow spots), and blue is a lake (lots of prey but hard to hide).

[golden coral]

The problem with the "orange" area being camping areas is that you have them be close enough to the shore to just outright lunge, which would not solve the issue? Sure, water clarity, but that would mean the "camping" area is where the spots are, or more accurately, further out in the water, meaning the deino would have to risk moving closer, and being seen while doing so? In which case I don't see much difference between that and having potential hiding spots or otherwise, because you'd still have to be out of reach and get into reach before attacking?

[thin mantle]

I don’t see an issue with the known hunting spots being avoided when you know of them

[charred idol]

Deino is fast enough to negate avoidance anyway. Just by traveling you can singlehandedly patrol rivers and make anywhere unsafe, which people want, yes? Yes there'd be small signs, but there's also other surface level things happening that will likely cross out noticing the croc. Like night vision being poor and the lighting sucking on some dinos or watching too hard for them and completely missing the cue.

[distant torrent]

#balance-feedback message

@odd pebble those suggestions are such eye candy to read it actually makes me smile

[dusky surge]

@odd pebble minor critique, the way knockdowns work is by scaling your current weight. So, for instance, pachy used to be able to stagger anything below 400% its size and could knockdown 200% its size

So, if you wanted carno to knockdown things below 1 ton, make it knockdown anything 50% its weight, which is 900kg. This also means its accounting for juvi and sub gameplay

[keen plover]

Good Carno suggestions 👍

[cobalt dagger]

@Steps
I like your suggestion a lot.

I also came to ask, do you all think Teno stands ANY chance against 2-3 ceras or 2-3 carnos?

I once asked this question elsewhere, they answered 'if you land your kicks and tail slams,' but the more I play, the more it seems that even one carno or cera is more trouble for the teno than the single teno is to the single cera or single carno.

Of course, if I encounter the carnos I can't really run away, but I think a teno can run away from Cera - me and a friend tested, Teno runs about as long as cera does, but it trots faster

[odd pebble]

Ah i see. So is it a universal mechanic or is it not scalable for individual playables?

[dusky surge]

it's to make calculations easier

for example, a deino can only grab something half its weight or below

because weight is constantly changing through growth

[keen plover]

That's a take people used to have

Teno can not face that many carnos or ceras

I don't think it ever could face 2 - 3 ceras

But update 4 - 5, it could take on 2 carnos

[odd pebble]

It honestly depends on the players most of the time, but ive survived and even killed 2-3 carnos and ceras as a solo teno

[dusky surge]

so by having a consistent equation, it makes life way easier, because "1 ton knockdown" is much harder to account for with scalable weight through growth than "50% of the weight of the carno"

especially when we also consider the possibility that elders present an even BIGGER variant of an animal, once again changing weight scaling

[odd pebble]

Ah i see. Thanks @dusky surge. Should i change the suggestion?

[odd pebble]

I miss update 5 carno 😭

[keen plover]

Same bro 💀

[dusky surge]

i miss when teno was on a level where it could deal with multiple carnos lol

[keen plover]

It was so close to perfection

Charge changes and that was it imo

For Spiro at least

Well I guess they also reduced the bleed on its bite

since then so that was needed

[odd pebble]

Same. Last night i tried to counter a charge with tailslam unaware of the changes and got folded

By a solo carno 💀

[keen plover]

Yeah you need to avoid the charge. Literally such a boring fight

Avoid charge = win

[distant torrent]

good luck avoiding that charge when you got the common pack of 3-4 carnos rushing right for you and they’re the slightest bit competent

[cobalt dagger]

Then, all herbis other than stego are really defenseless right now I guess because, it seems like everything ( omni deino cera carno ) comes in a group. When they are alone, they stay quiet and hidden, because they know they're weaker and don't want to be killed by a group, and they are more likely to scavenge - which is good and all but it means when my teno DOES get attacked by something it's something that knows it'll win and that's why it picked the fight.

If Teno was a run-away kind of animal like galli It'd be fine but it's not really built that way...

-- Or at least, when I am a lone omni/cera/carno, I do a lot of scavenging and hiding.

I have in truth met single ceras who face tanked my teno's tail and died, but I do not think they will do that again with their next teno.

I've been doing a lot of teno v carno in 1 v 1 servers and been finding it very very hard to dodge the charge and nigh-impossible to stop it with tail slam

It's like the darn smallest part of my tail causes my whole body to get knocked over

[dusky surge]

the fact that you can no longer counter it makes carno even more into a chargespam to win character, which is just sad

carno has no viable strategies besides pressing RMB until the opponent dies

teno should honestly get its slam damage back and have perhaps a buff to its clawswipe to keep up with the carnivores

[cobalt dagger]

Well in some 1 v 1's I found, chasing carnos reduces their chances to charge you, but some will just RUN until you both run out of stam - But once you both run out of stam, well teno NEEDS their stam, so chasing them doesn't do you too much good

[novel walrus]

this isnt nessecarily an attack counter but you could dodge it until its out of stam. a good strat is moving slightly to one side then quickly moving the other way. works for me every time

although once carnos acceleration comes back. tenos gone

[dusky surge]

unless they actually address the charge

[distant torrent]

(which is very unlikely)

[dusky surge]

god i just want it to not be horrid

please just give it less damage

[distant torrent]

[cobalt dagger]

I did a lot of 1 v 1's in a deathmatch server as teno v carnos. I would try to do just that. The intelligent carnos I fought against would aim and predict my movements, and not charge until the last second to give them their best chance at turning and aiming... They would hit me every time, my best chance was to run AT them to minimize their reaction time and then quickly curve around them once they got close, to abuse their turn speed. But it was very hard to do as it required me to time it well and react very very very fast, and even then they STILL hit me because of my dumb tail curving towards where I once was - But my goal was that if they hit the very tip of my tail, very very tip of the tail, then I would take minimal damage and not get knocked down.

Unfortunately about 50% of the time they hit my tail they still hit it close enough to my body to knock me down.

I think whether or not changing directions works depends on the carnos you're up against.

[neon willow]

@mortal tundra I understand that it's not realistic, but I think it's actually really important for juvies to have high stam. Juvies have significantly less health and damage than adults, and that means they cannot win a fight if someone tries to attack them. The other options in a hostile interaction are to hide, or to run. Hiding doesn't work great if the hostile has already seen you, and additionally the hide strategy is the root cause of afk playing and is mind numbingly boring to boot. That means the only option that juvies can pick that isn't checking out of the game entirely is to try to outrun hostiles

Adults are almost always faster, so the ONLY way the run strategy can work is if juvies have more stamina. Otherwise, juvies basically only exist to feed carnivores because they're entirely helpless, and that is NOT fun to play through

[cobalt dagger]

I agree with this ^

[tall bronze]

With Gateway's better layout combined with sanctuaries, I think juvies would be okay with significantly less stamina actually. Nothing absurd, but come Gateway they'll actually have better options of escaping and avoiding predators. As for running away from them, I'd say a juvie shouldn't really be in that situation in the first place. Not that they should just insta-die, but a juvie should do their best to avoid encountering an adult and if they do, they should be at a distance far enough to escape before the adult gets within kill range.

[cobalt dagger]

There are situations that force them to meet though, particularly when it comes to food, when you just spawned and you're too small to hunt and you have to find some already-dead thing to eat?

[tall bronze]

You should be more than capable of hunting AI as a juvie, even for something like juvie Troodon (of course there are issues like inconsistent AI and juvie cameras that can make this difficult, but those are separate issues). Regardless, scavenging doesn't automatically mean there MUST be an adult nearby, but there is risk which I see as a good thing since you can still just scan the area for danger and listen for danger. Of course Spiro being Spiro does make scavenging very unreliable since no incentive to travel = people spam Center = all food is in Center with the adults, but that's another separate issue.

So in short, Spiro and camera issues can make juvies quite bad, yes. But Gateway and sanctuaries with (hopefully) tweaked cameras can help a lot.

[neon willow]

You make really good points. That all may well be true, but id rather be conservative and change one thing at a time (like changing maps and seeing if it improves juvi survivability), and if the proof is in the pudding, only then I would be okay with nerfing juvi stam.

That's simply because the isle has a bad habit of doing too many balance changes at once and seesawing between overpowered and unviable

[fresh laurel]

I would first try to give juvies more defined gameplay that is fun
like how a juvie/sub rex is a more agile sorta deal compared to the bulky adult

[keen plover]

Rex will probably be the first Dino where that truly happens

Unless the juvi turns like the adult

Wish the other playables would get that level of love though

[tall bronze]

I definitely agree with making juvies as a whole more interesting and less "adult but worse in almost every way"

[hasty coyote]

I’m still hoping for juvie anky to be able to curl into a ball

[coarse blaze]

Pachy is so squishy, my poor baby can't do a whole lot no more

[pure apex]

People really thinks Deino is balanced?

[dusky surge]

somehow, yes

[coarse blaze]

Supposedly according to 5 it'll be easier with Gateway to avoid deinos.

[dusky surge]

as someone who's played on Gateway, yea, it isn't handed to deinos on a silver platter

and i can only imagine that it's improved by leagues since I played on it

[coarse blaze]

I've only seen bits here and there, the underwater biomes look really nice and I'm genuinely very excited. Most of the issues I have with this game excluding some playable issues I think will be resolved with Gateway.

[dusky surge]

yea, diversity in water biomes is a much needed change

[coarse blaze]

Considering right now it's just narrow paths where you're bound to have to pass another deino, it'll be a very, very nice change of pace.

At least with Gateway if you get grabbed it's on you this time around, with plenty of safer spots I can't complain.

[dusky surge]

it's also impossible to go anywhere that isn't linked to another watersource, besides two coastal pools of water that are well-away from any and all activity

also swimming finally has use, because the rivers are wide enough that proficient swimmers can use that as a way to get the hell away from less proficient swimmers

crossing a river as a tenonto to escape a carno will essentially mean the teno gets away, as the carno's terrible swimspeed and stam will leave it literally dead in the water

ideally, deino becomes difficult enough that the population drops a great deal

because as it stands, the ability for deino to survive in massive numbers is absurd

[coarse blaze]

I genuinely never considered that some playables would drown that's a fair point, I just assumed most wouldn't dive into a big open water sources. Because rarely do you drown on Spiro since there's not much to drown in.

I've genuinely never gone to the coastal pool on my own, it's too far and most things will starve so nearly anywhere else has a far chance of having a deino lurking around it, including the glitch rock.

I feel the big open space will also be good for deinos, cannibalism is hard to avoid right now given everything is so tight, giving players a lot more range and things to hide under seems like it'll be a breath of fresh air.

Deino just feels so unfair right now in Spiro, players have far less to complain about when they rarely see them.

[dusky surge]

i mean, cannibalism is partially the reason deinos are so rampantly dominating the entire game, it makes their diet (and growth) a lot more obtainable

an ideal change would be having the migration system link to fish spawns, like the elite fish will only spawn in great numbers in specific "breeding grounds" or what have you, forcing competition for fish, or risking famine for those who want to avoid that competition

i'm also excited to see shallows appear again. Suchomimus and deinocherius need a place to call home, and deinosuchus needs to learn that not every body of water is made for it

[coarse blaze]

That's a fair point too, I never considered that too heavily either but there are alot of deinos. I dare say at least 20% if not more are deinos on any full server currently.

That would be really neat, I'm still not entirely sure how the migration system works aside from giving herbivores something to do, they move and carnivores follow to maintain diet. Ideally the water biomes having a similar system would really be something for sure and more realistic. Migration too seems like a neat way for people to find mates of the same species for nesting.

I'm really curious if bary and sucho are both planned given the niches are alike, I know one of the two have a model. Deinocherius or therizinosaurus I feel have a really good place to fill, putting a big herbi in the swamps/water biomes seems like a well-needed addition. I'm not sure if anything has been mentioned about deinocherius but I know therizinosaurus was an old playable on Legacy so I hold out much hope.

[dusky surge]

bary and sucho are nothing alike, and they're both planned

bary is an agile, quick animal that is capable and swift on both land and water, capable of diving underwater to hide and escape threats. It prefers deeper waters due to its diving ability

suchomimus is a large, lumbering animal that relies heavily on power. Its home is the shallow waters, and may possibly not even be able to dive. It dominates its home through raw power and prefers to hold its own over flee, but can use the shallows to make its escape while other animals struggle to trudge through them

also deinocheirus is the community animal, confirmed to be the only apex-sized omnivore, and a shallow wader alongside suchomimus

[obtuse ocean]

Didnt it say sucho was darn weak somewhere, cus i got really dissapointed about that.

[coarse blaze]

I know the animals themselves are different, I mean the niches they fill specifically as piscivores. Granted I guess most of the carnivores could have the same thing said about them, I'm just curious how they'll place the two without them competing. If bary is given the ability to dive I guess this isn't an issue though at all.

[dusky surge]

no? i have absolutely no idea what you're talking about

[obtuse ocean]

Ok, il go find out where i got it from. Hopefully im wrong

[coarse blaze]

I can't complain having them both, I want more semi-aquatic playables and I just can't see spino walking around just yet. Not at that size, I'm still not even entirely sure if rexie is or isn't a planned AI on officals, I have been told both things.

[dusky surge]

bary would be stomped by sucho regardless, seeing as sucho is like 4x its size lol

so they're not really going to be "competing" that much

[coarse blaze]

Bary has to use that agility. 💪

[dusky surge]

in a fight, bary probably gets clapped in shallow waters lol

[obtuse ocean]

Ok, not sure how you can take it. But it says in concept. "when it comes to suchos jaws they might not pack the biggest punch"

[coarse blaze]

Competition is going to come down to however players play them sadly, some people for sure are going to just KOS whatever they see. Carnos and ceras can't supposed to compete but I see it genuinely every day.

[dusky surge]

which is good, that makes sense, they absolutely should not

[obtuse ocean]

But then again that can be taken in many ways, since it also got claws etc

[dusky surge]

spinosaurids should have pathetic bites in general

even spino should have a terrible bite damage

because the whole point is to throw hands

[dusky surge]

pretty sure carno and ceras are meant to compete, it's been said many times they are

[coarse blaze]

I think they're going for the "gharial" route, with it being mostly a fish-eater it having a super strong, crunching bite doesn't fit in as nice.

[obtuse ocean]

True, even in legacy the bite from spino was useless but the bleed and speed was god

[dusky surge]

i mean, generally, spino just shouldn't have a good bite because its mouth isn't designed that way

it catches fish

[coarse blaze]

Most of their diet doesn't clash, the two most of the time wouldn't come into contact ideally with cera feeding off mostly corpses.

[dusky surge]

the claws should be the self-defence tool

[dusky surge]

cera is encouraged to steal corpses from animals like carno tho

[graceful swallow]

spino could also throw that weight around

[coarse blaze]

Yes, bullying anything off corpses is ceras ideal situation but realistically it's not going to chase down a carno and kill it. They eat fast, it goes in, bullies them off, eats and leaves.

[dusky surge]

that's competition

they are competing

the carno can retreat or choose to smackdown with the cera for its meal back

[coarse blaze]

Okay I'm wrong. Technically yes that would be competition, I guess in a sense I meant how ceras go out of their ways currently to hunt carnos at the moment and vice versa.

[dusky surge]

yea but that's because carno is really goddamn badly designed atm

it has arguably some of the worst base stats of any animal in the game given its size, and is entirely carried by the charge attack because everything else it has sucks

[coarse blaze]

I want so bad to like carno, I really do but it's always starving just about. I'm not sure why exactly cera is supposedly so strong right now, there are alot of ceras and alot of folks complain about their stamina.

If anything I think the hunger drain needs to be swapped for the two

[dusky surge]

cera has a ton of unique benefits that make it extremely versatile

carno, on the other hand, has a bunch of nerfs that make it extremely specialised in basically one style of play and that's it

[coarse blaze]

It seems like most of the newer playables just in general have more attributes than the old ones, which makes some sense because they're new but it really leaves the older ones to wither out.

Granted steg doesn't have alot as a kit but it makes up for it just by being a powerhouse tank.

[dusky surge]

stego needs an overhaul because the poor thing is going to get demolished the moment rex gets added

which is honestly quite soon

[obtuse ocean]

I love apexes, but i hate they added rex and trike now

[dusky surge]

and since both stego and rex will be delegated to "unofficial animals", they'll likely be competing a lot, which means stego needs to be better prepared

[dusky surge]

i mean, they're only gonna be on unofficials that opt in for them

[coarse blaze]

I wasn't sure if the steg being removed on officials was true or not

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but still gonna be so much complain about them lol

[dusky surge]

it is

[coarse blaze]

I want to hope it's not because of the "too OP" thing, I genuinely can't fathom at least right now how deino is seen as balanced and steg isn't.

[dusky surge]

we won't know till we see it

[dusky surge]

deino can die to stego if it plays like an idiot, therefore stego is the OP one

that's how it's seen

[obtuse ocean]

People gonna "hate" them for a long time, just like carno. When something is top of the food chain people hate em

[coarse blaze]

That's genuinely absurd.

The way I've seen it is that you can avoid a steg, they're very slow. A deino you're bound to come into contact with because water is incredibly important.

Stegs kill stegs, deinos kill deinos and the two often kill one another because they're the only two things that really can deal that kind of damage right now.

Granted the deino issue also is just because there are so many of them

[dusky surge]

it's funny, because troodon, omni and cera all have a much easier time killing a stego than a deino, yet deino is still seen as the balanced one

[coarse blaze]

Deino and steg just facetank once another half the time, deinos normally can kill stegs fairly easy if the steg is crossing and that's about it.

You just body block the steg and since they can't attack back that's game

[obtuse ocean]

For now, after stego update. I doubt, deino is not supose to take on apexes

[coarse blaze]

I don't think so, again Gateway will fix most of these issues

Stegs clashing with deinos is also just a thing now because FG stegs have nothing to do and get bored

[dusky surge]

i mean, stego is already boring as-is. It's slow, it only has one attack (and said attack really isn't that great), nothing interacts with it

it's a miracle people play it when it's objectively a worse deino atm

[obtuse ocean]

I dont think people play whats best, i play deino cus i dont need to worry about every darn omni/cera walking up to me trying to fight me for 10 min and run away

[dusky surge]

the only redeeming feature to stego is that it can skillcheck deino, which is pretty amusing all things considered

[graceful swallow]

As far as ive seen, doesnt a fg steg out damage a deinos bite with its tail? if every hit connects

[coarse blaze]

I really liked steg but it grew boring fast after I started to die to other stegs on occassion. Raising babies was neat but nothing wants to pick fights with you outside of deinos or other stegs.

[dusky surge]

it does, but that's really it

[graceful swallow]

Ah ok thought I was goin cray

[coarse blaze]

I've been chased, out-stammed on land by deinos as a steg and died twice. Punished on land my ass.

[graceful swallow]

im glad I instinctively never went to face tank a steg as a adult deino then pheeew lmao

[coarse blaze]

How they can chase and still have the stam to alt bite is beyond me.

I remember watching just a ton of adult deinos crawl onto land and sit there so nothing else could go that way, without a steg theres nothing really could do anything about the situation.

[dusky surge]

deino has more health, more weight, more bleed resist, faster swimspeed, the ability to dive, water sense, the ability to do effectively 4000 damage with lunge, a bite attack with no stamcost that does 500 damage, the ability to eat rot, the ability to eat bones, the highest oxygen pool in the game, etc

stego has a tailwhip that does a 1250 damage, but it costs stam, is very slow and leaves it super open to other attacks. It also has an increased head damage multiplier, making it more vulnerable

[dusky surge]

i've seen it too. 12 deinos to be exact

[coarse blaze]

But no, of course steg is the OP one.

[dusky surge]

"it kills my god carnivore"

[coarse blaze]

I, a medium sized carnivore ran up to the 6 ton steg and got 2-tapped 😔 Crazy OP, not my fault.

[dusky surge]

fun fact, troodons and omnis, if skilled/coordinated enough, can obliterate stegos with ease

for a while, stego was entirely invalidated by the existence of cera's vomitlock

[coarse blaze]

Isn't it like 80 something 3-stage pounces though? For troodons that is

I've seen omnis kill stegs, it's rare but I've seen it NW.

[dusky surge]

you'd be surprised how much damage a full venom pounce actually does, especially when there's a ton coming at you at once

[coarse blaze]

I'll be frank, the first time I had full-stage venom I wasn't sure what it did aside from make me shake. I was a FG steg.

I'm real excited for dilo venom though, having more venom in the game just seems neat

[dusky surge]

full stage venom HURTS

[keen plover]

Kind of is rn

[dusky surge]

yea i thought so lol

again, stego remains losing because "it deserves it"

people still want rex to easily destroy stegos with the excuses either
A: "should've been in a herd"
B: "it deserves it for being OP"

i mainly want this stego rework to see stego actually competently feel like a stego, because atm, it continues the consistent herbivore stigma of "being unfinished"

reminder, 3 out of the 5 playable herbivores are not mechanically done. Stego, hypsi and dryo still don't have core mechanics, and people are wondering why everyone gravitates to carnivore

i'd play more herbi if herbi had more to offer

that's not even mentioning how done dirty pachy is, and how underwhelming teno feels now

omnivores, as they stand are basically herbivores, but fun. Galli and beipi outclass every herbi atm in terms of being mechanically complete and actually viable and fun

@cobalt dagger i honestly think that a teno should hold a hefty advantage over a solo carno

[cobalt dagger]

I think it should depend on their skill but maybe because carno gets to pick the fight, teno should have the advantage

After all, being able to pick your fight, IS a huge advantage itself,

Because it lets the carno pick the fights that are advantagous to it.

[dusky surge]

exactly

carno can pick basically every fight on account of being fast

[cobalt dagger]

I was talking to a twitch streamer playing carno, they agreed teno was weak but said it was good teno could not cancel charge, because they said a solo carno v a solo teno of the same skill, carno stood no chance.

But I think, I feel the same way as I do with stego - If it's slow and can't pick the fight, it needs to be strong enough to protect itself.

I am okay with teno v carno needing skill since then carnos might try their luck with me and if I hone my skill I can punish them for that XD But if I am like stego and they KNOW they are disadvantaged, it decreases their likelihood to challenge me.

But that's my personal preference. Not a balance thing.

[dusky surge]

i legitimately stand by the belief that
A: Charge should stagger, not knockdown animals larger than 50% its own size. This means teno would get STUNNED, but not knocked to the ground
B: Teno should be able to take even two carnos solo, should the skillgap be notable enough. It should be more concerned with other predators besides carno

[cobalt dagger]

Brb

For 12 mins\

[distant torrent]

a solo carno shouldn’t have a sliver of a chance with a teno. if it’s an equal fight, then that teno will get steamrolled by 2 carnos. 3 would just delete the teno and any herd it might be rolling with

[dusky surge]

people used to play teno because it used to feel POWERFUL in a skilled players hands

it was the brawler that could be surrounded by carnos and still put up a fight

it was really goddamn fun to have those moments of trying to kill some members of a carno pack before you inevitably die, a final stand

but now it just lacks the damage output to do that well

[keen plover]

The good days

[distant torrent]

ngl when I was getting the hang of teno when I was a new player, managing to stop a carno charge in its tracks with slam felt so good and rewarding

[dusky surge]

i legit used to love teno, but i can't play it because it just feels poor. When every carno is in groups of 3 or more, and ceras move in great numbers too, and teno is only equipped to have a slight edge in a 1v1, it just doesn't feel fun

[obtuse ocean]

This is what i agree on, you need stuff that dont barely win in a 1v1 but get destroyed 2v1 no matter how good you are. Thats how you get good fights

[dusky surge]

before, dying as a teno was at least fun because you went down in a blaze of glory in battle. Now, it's a desperate attempt to even scratch your opponent as they either facetank you or spam you to death

[slim dragon]

Also taking into account the fact herbis always take longer to grow than carnis because it's harder and takes more time for them to obtain a perfect diet

[dusky surge]

that's what teno is, and it's why it's so bad atm. It will ALWAYS lose when outnumbered, it doesn't have that old level of power where even pairs or trios of carnos played cautiously around a fullgrown teno

because a fullgrown teno should demand some level of respect from animals around its weightclass, not be bulldozed because number advantage

[obtuse ocean]

Agree, thats what i loved with teno before. And even as carno , fighting one 2v1 or 3v1. I still had to be carefull, it actually hurt doing a mistake as carno.

[dusky surge]

yes, tenontos often died to trios of carnos, but they could also take one with them as a final "get screwed" before they died

and it's not like it was a "braindead powerhouse", tenonto has always been one of the most skilled animals in the game that got punished hard by baits and mixups

the constant nerfing is just bizarre to me, considering it's never been that egrigious

i can only hope that next update will do more than just buff carno, because god damn the herbis need love too

i want tenonto to be more than "the animal you pick if you missed clicking diablo", since they're both going to be pseudo-mid sized brawler herbivores

[cobalt dagger]

I agree with all these assessments

I really wish for this too, because- even IF teno could have safety in numbers, I can't find more of my kind most of the time. But it's so easy to find more of my kind as omni, deino, cera or carno.

My teno lives are so lonely.

[obtuse ocean]

I love playing lonely, i do play in group sometime. But i dont want to be 2 carnos and go "hey lets kill that teno" i would rather go " lets try kill that teno" and still be on edge when fighting it cus i know i can loose.

[thin mantle]

It's also just a terrible idea to balance survivability around groups

An animal being balanced around groups is alright if their group necessitated gameplay is ADDITIONAL to their survival requirements

Troodon Galli and Omni can all survive alone comfortably despite their mechanics either necessitating or being the most optimal in groups. Which is why I find it so funny that omni continues to get buffed so that it requires less and less numbers to tackle animals several times it's size

That shouldn't be conventional, that should be additive

Omni doesn't have to hunt animals way bigger than itself to survive

For some reason the fact that it's capable of doing so makes people think that should be what's considered "standard difficulty" instead of requiring mastery of the animals playstyle

Diets and how they're listed unfortunatelly screw the perception of what an animal should comfortably hunt quite a bit

Despite them not even explicitly stating these should be regular prey items

Like omni having carno on it's diet....REALLY makes people think omni should have a somewhat even 2v1 or even in some cases 1v1 with a carno....for some reason

Baffling

[unborn iris]

Or that 1 carno grow is equivalent to 2 omni grows. Just in time invested.

[dusky surge]

people think cera and deino should be prey for omni which is

hysterical

[thin mantle]

Yeah I'm not sure when we started appraising dino's worth as a time based currency but we should really NOT do that

[dusky surge]

yea for real

it's more of that "small = bad" mindset

where smaller animals are all weak, useless animals when compared to bigger, better animals

[thin mantle]

In omni's case it seems to be the opposite

Like the amount of omni players I find that genuinely think a solo omni should be consistently matching a carno is concerning

[dusky surge]

the only thing that confirms that idea is deino, who is by all accounts, bigger, better and stronger than everything else

[thin mantle]

Mhm

[dusky surge]

i genuinely believe the omni community is 95% responsible for the utter trainwreck carno we have

[thin mantle]

Besides deino the game tends to (historically) favor the smalls...but not too smalls

Like omni has consistently been disproportionately powerful for it's size bugs withholding

And it developes this perception in the community that animals that big should be that strong

Which is where we got pachy

[dusky surge]

because omni players, despite having one of the game's best agilities, cannot for the life of them, dodge

[thin mantle]

The thing their animal is BEST at

[dusky surge]

pachy still remains in a rough spot, this is the animal that can never be balanced

it's always on one side of the spectrum

never a comfortable middle ground

[thin mantle]

It's not too bad tbh

It just needs more stam and it's basically perfect

[dusky surge]

i'd argue when compared to the rest of the roster, it QUICKLY falls behind

considering every carnivore has a little bit of power creep on it

[thin mantle]

that's more an issue with bias towards carnivores

And them being absurdly competent alone

[dusky surge]

pachy, imho, needs more speed and possibly stam

[thin mantle]

Why speed?

[dusky surge]

like, speed should be to both apply more pressure to attackers like omni and get the hell away from cera

[thin mantle]

Well it's already faster than cera so speed covers that

And it's never struggled with omni, that hasn't changed

The alt attack change hit it harder

If omni didn't instantly start sprinting when it missed a pounce there would be windows

[keen plover]

It struggles rn I'd say

[thin mantle]

Which needs to exist regardless

[thin mantle]

It does, statistically it doesn't however, most of it's problems don't stem from itself

The biggest problems for it in that engagement is the inability to alt while sprinting and the nonexistence of windows for landing rams since omni doesn't have a punishment window

Both of which are not issues specific to it

[dusky surge]

also the sheer comedic value of making a point of how missed pounce animation was bad, made the game feel clunky and punished omnis too hard

then kept ram animation

because screw the herbi

[thin mantle]

And alts

Which herbis require demonstrably over carnis

Since they have horrendous dive potential

[unborn iris]

Just seems obvious and makes sense.

[thin mantle]

Whereas most carnis are designed for dives

[thin mantle]

It doesn’t make sense

By that metric 5 omnis should shred a deino

[dusky surge]

i honestly hope that we don't have to wait on Diablo for herbis to see any kind of "good" playable

[thin mantle]

By that metric 7 dryos should shred a stego

It would technically require the combined power of 5 pteras to justifiably kill a Carno

Which to me is hilariously wrong

[dusky surge]

god i just want a SINGLE herbivore that isn't a worse option than their carni equivilant

i cannot express this enough

[thin mantle]

I almost said Galli

[dusky surge]

my favourite herbi atm is literally dryo because it feels more fun to at least do the dodge thing and vibe with random other animals than fight for my life on an uphill battle

[thin mantle]

Then realized it isn’t a herbi

[keen plover]

Pachy is so close and teno looool

[dusky surge]

you forget that all omnivores are "herbivores but fun"

like, all of the omnivores are just superior options to the herbivores

[thin mantle]

Accept for beipi, unless you just like hoping around

But aside from that their gameplay doesn’t exist

[dusky surge]

beipi still has more to offer than lots of the herbis, and with Gateway, I'll likely play the hell out of it

[thin mantle]

Fair but it admittedly has no use for its claws atm

[dusky surge]

also the sheer joy i get from constantly obliterating juvi ceras is worth the growtime

[thin mantle]

Troodon wins that 1v1 majority of the time and juvi deinos outweigh it heavily from spawn

The only decent fight beipi has is fresh spawn Cerato

Which is still rather lame since beipi has the best aquatic mobility in the game but never needs to use it

[dusky surge]

idk man its still fun to me to obliterate them

[thin mantle]

That’s fine, it’s fun for me too

But the potential of the playable is just severely neglected

Which isn’t unique to beipi but it feels especially sour when it has so much designwork going for it

[dusky surge]

that's true

i mean, water sources that don't suck complete ass would help too

[thin mantle]

Yeah but fundamentally beipi just has really low roster engagement despite being design like a knife wielding nutcase

[dusky surge]

doesn't help that the current roster is still mostly beyond its size

[thin mantle]

Yeah but you’d think of all smalls it would be even somewhat capable of hitting above its weight

But if anything slightly heavier than it can engage it the penguin dies

[dusky surge]

yea, probably needs some more going on with the claws

[thin mantle]

Agreed

[unborn iris]

Fair enough. Point taken.

[thin mantle]

👍

[dusky surge]

it's a shame too because beipi does feel satisfying to attack with

[thin mantle]

Yeah, it’s alt could be a little bit faster but it does feel really satisfying

[dusky surge]

like obliterating a cera as a beipi is oddly satisfying and idk why

maybe it's the joy of removing a cera

or maybe it's the combat itself

[thin mantle]

It’s funny to me that an animal that can absolutely not tank any damage has all of its relevant damage gated behind a stationary attack

[prisma estuary]

why does the tip off tenos tail slam knock u and it knock u when it hits ur tail thats absurd

[analog mirage]

Ok so is tenos Tailslam bugged or something cause everyone keeps saying they can’t cancel charge with Tailslam

I’ve had no problem with it

[distant torrent]

ram goes through tailslam. in all of my experiences, it usually causes a stun/knockdown to both the carno and teno, and the carno gets the better end of the deal because it recovers faster.

you can technically cancel a charge, but the ram still connects regardless and registers even if you hit the carno first, and it causes that typical absurd ram damage and the dreaded knockdown

I wouldn’t be able to tell you if it’s a bug or an intended change

[analog mirage]

Idk I haven’t had much of a problem. I’ve noticed sometimes charge hits first but other than that it seems to still cancel charge

[distant torrent]

it happens all the time to me. it’s always a trade off. not the good kind of trade off either

[dusky surge]

yea, because the teno is only doing 100-200 damage because of how many times the tailslam damage has been nerfed, whereas carno is doing like 350

it's winning the exchange SIGNIFICANTLY

[distant torrent]

350 damage for the charge + a couple of free bites in while the teno gets up

[dusky surge]

again, why has tailslam been nerfed while charge remains the same

and to such a degree too

[analog mirage]

Remember U4 the damage was cut in half

Now it’s cut in half again

[dusky surge]

legit why

[distant torrent]

I want tailslam to be absolutely brutal

[analog mirage]

Also

Why isn’t Tailslam directional yet

[dusky surge]

it's actually upsetting how teno keeps getting nerfed for its extremely fair attack with good windup, a clearly conveyed hitbox and a need for skilled aim and timing, while carno gets its bigass nuke for free

[distant torrent]

because eat grass and die

[analog mirage]

Cera and Teno requiring skill to win fights

Carno: 🚄

[dusky surge]

nerfing the stam is not making the animal any better

like, seriously, why is carno just so hard to balance

stop giving it weird-ass hits to its base stats that just make it objectively terrible as an animal, and nerf the ACTUAL problem that is charge

[distant torrent]

(because they won’t properly address the ram)

[analog mirage]

Carno needs to be oppressive to Omnis, pachys and dilos

Not Ceras and tenos. Should require a pair to fight that

[stark knoll]

@torn egret Charged bite applies more bacteria currently

[dusky surge]

i truly believe carno has never been worse

not because i disagree with the nerfs, but because they remain oblivious to the ACTUAL issue

[distant torrent]

I’d honestly want it to require a trio. it’s very common to see pairs or trios

[dusky surge]

the carno has been boiled down to a chargespam animal. It is nothing more than a single attack

[torn egret]

I'm an idiot obviously 😐
I just don't see it, does it use the same amount of bacteria as a reg bite?

[stark knoll]

It uses the same amount but applies more, yup

[analog mirage]

Ehhh I don’t want Carno to be so obsurdly bad it needs 3. Just needs to be toned on its stats

[stark knoll]

Can't remember how much more

[torn egret]

:) Bought to do some nefarious testing later tonight lmao

[dusky surge]

i want carno to have 3 to have a significant advantage. 2, it's somewhat even. 1, teno has the easy advantage

[analog mirage]

Carno is literally a bomb. You kill everyone in sight but only have like 10 seconds to do so

[dusky surge]

exactly, it's... really bad honestly

the way it's designed has obliterated skill and agency from its kit

too much movement will waste precious stamina, and a charge will make it that you lack the stamina to escape

[analog mirage]

3 Carnos should be a hard to win likely impossible for a single Teno

2 should be manageable

1 only Carnos who are really good should be able to solo a Teno

[dusky surge]

carno is an insanely OP attack on an insanely bad animal

[analog mirage]

It’s stats are all over the place

[dusky surge]

it relies entirely on charge to prevent it from falling into obscurity

it needs TONS of base stat improvements, and a good amount of nerfs to the charge (ideally in the damage and knockdown department)

[torn egret]

I was about to say, they can sometimes face tank a Cera, wvwn with the debuff. But I think maybe giving them a "Trample effect " might be good. IE, when you get hit with a charge, the Carno keeps going for a bit until it can slow. Give it less damage, and then that way an opponent has a chance to get up and ready itself.

[dusky surge]

carno needs literally anything but a nerf right now

it's literally hanging on a lifeline right now

[analog mirage]

Carno doesn’t need a specific nerf or a buff. Just rework its entire stats

[torn egret]

But if the issue is the "skill needed" then making the fights longer and lowering charge stamina might be a good balance I thought... 😦

I haven't played enough Carno I guess to see all the issues yet

[dusky surge]

i agree with reducing charge's damage, because it's DUMB, but it NEEDS buffs to stuff like stam, bleed, hunger, so on

[analog mirage]

Ehh I like the idea of Carno bleeding out fast since it should require hit and run to not get hit itself

[torn egret]

Stam and hunger, I agree. Bleed, maybe a faster regen? but keep bleed rate the same?
So if they need to run, they can, and they can get up to thier feet.

[alpine sleet]

and its agility so it has a chance to catch small tier playables

[torn egret]

Too much agility would break it imo

[analog mirage]

If anything I’d actually lower its bite to 150, nerf charge to 190-220

Good acceleration, good stamina, good speed, requires little food so it can actually survive off smalls

Lower cost of stam to a activation cost

[distant torrent]

for carno I want:

• a reduction in ram damage
• only a stun/knockdown on things below half its weight
• a reduction to damage done to things above half its weight
• a buff in damage to things below half its weight
• dryo charges for ram
• a buff to its hunger
• a very slight stam buff

all of these together I want. not just picking and choosing a few

[alpine sleet]

not too much, just the agility and acceleration a normal animal would have, right now it's ridiculous

[dusky surge]

lowering charge damage is good, but it needs buffs to compensate

carno is in a unique postion where all of its stats are literally hot garbage, besides anything related to the absolute atomic bomb that is the charge

350 damage, knockdowns on anything below the carno's weight, no timing required, insanely quick to toggle off and on, can do headshots for even MORE damage, so on

this attack, besides the deino's lunge, is undoubtedly the strongest attack in the game, it has hard knockdowns, ease of use, no aiming required, high speed, the ability to maintain mobility while in use, INSANE damage, a big ass hitbox and more

it's sickining how good this attack is, while carno itself is horrid without it

[torn egret]

That's why I want to see if we can make the charge "continue" after the hit. Prevent the lock and bite combo. What do you think?

[dusky surge]

the issue with that is it just means the carno kinda... sucks? like, what's the point of a knockdown if you can't even utilise it

[alpine sleet]

right now a utah can stand 2 meters away from a carno and laugh at it because it will never catch the utah, its not even a threat

[dusky surge]

you ideally want to use the knockdown to lock a nimble animal in place to combo it

[analog mirage]

Make Carno a long distance runner who is fast, has good health but mediocre damage making it hard to take on stuff around your size so you stick to stuff you know you can hunt easily like Omni or dilo

[dusky surge]

exactly right

lower damage would still be impactful on smaller game

[torn egret]

If we are going to make the damage as is is now, (Which is fine imo) we need to make it skill based. One super strong attack that kills you if you fail because of stam. So I think a stam buff is needed(at least for charge) and maybe make the charge have more build up. or add acceleration again.

[analog mirage]

I don’t wanna say it but a obviously balanced and reworked legacy Carno. Where it can’t fight stuff it’s size by itself but can easily wipe smalls

[dusky surge]

we have accel, it's really slow

[alpine sleet]

yes, i mean omnis should have chances to escape but at least make it a cat-mouse game where a carno has a chance to catch stuff

[distant torrent]

(a buff in damage to things below half its weight)

[dusky surge]

unneeded tbh

[torn egret]

I think cerato as is now is ok.

[alpine sleet]

why? it is much stronger than any small tier

[analog mirage]

We talked about Carno

[dusky surge]

an attack that does 175 damage will be more impactful against an omni with 450HP than a cera with 1300. You really don't need to also make it do more damage

[torn egret]

But what about deacceleration? Maybe adding that will force more skill play?

[distant torrent]

talking about if carno had worse damage to bite than what it currently has

[latent bay]

Holy crap carno headshot ram damage is like 420 with a 1.5x multiplier

That actually just explodes something's face like a yogurt tube what the hell

Who the hell thought that was a good idea

[alpine sleet]

oh i see

[analog mirage]

Also give carno that Tokyo drift (like that one bug it had for 2 days)

[torn egret]

Becuase I get locked as an fg cera by fg Carno, I won't likely win the fight.

[dusky surge]

you aren't solving anything, you're just making carno even more sickeningly uncomfortable to play

it's got terrible agility, terrible accel and terrible stam already

moving is already exceptionally punishing as this so called sprinter

[analog mirage]

Also redo its run animation because it literally looks like it’s a incoming nuke

Give it more of a bounce

[torn egret]

But the problem comes to mechanics. The stun lock is a bit harsh, (that's why I want to see if the carno can keep going for a bit after. help with fighting a pack and stopping body lock on the target you hit, and only that target), and the stam usage on a charge is crazy.

[dusky surge]

let's put this into context

in terms of stamina, stegosaurus (6 ton defensive herbivore) can run for longer than carnotaurus (1.8 ton sprinter carnivore)

if that isn't absolutely ridiculous in every sense, i literally do not know what is

[alpine sleet]

thats not the way, right now carno actually works well as a playable if you play in certain way, but it's so stupidly uncomfortable because of the agility and acceleration that they need to rework it

[torn egret]

The speed is what makes the difference. I think stam for most dinos should be reworked. There is so much sprinting nowadays that I think it needs a bit of a rework for some dinos.

[analog mirage]

There’s too little sprinting

[dusky surge]

carno's speed is literally ALL it has

and it doesn't even get that much

because it will burn through stam at an INSANE pace

carno honestly is just pathetic atm

i would MUCH rather see it reworked to actually possess some level of competency rather than thrown a debuff to the charge yet again that doesn't solve the fact it is a frustrating nuke attack that is just entirely unfun to engage with

[alpine sleet]

imo it should have the speed and acceleration but not the stamina, its mean to fill cheetahs role and they can barely even run at top speed, like you need to use your tools to catch your prey in a brief chase imo

[dusky surge]

i really hate the "cheetah" comparison, because carno is literally nothing like a cheetah

[torn egret]

I think that more dynamic fights lead to more fun personally. The speed of Carno is not bad, but stam usage is. but it's hard to buff that without breaking the Carno as well. I think more mechanics with the charge, and maybe another ram like attack,(Not a charge, but if you are running alongside a dino and bump it maybe you can push it idk. Throwing ideas), can help diversify the way it's played. it also doesn't have a lot of food options with the lack of herbi players.

[alpine sleet]

right now it isn't but apparently they want it to be a cheetah

[dusky surge]

a cheetah is a competently designed ambush predator that can blend into the environment with its small size and camo colours

the carnotaurus is a literal "carnivorous bull" that towers over prey and foliage, runs at stuff in broad daylight and beats it to death, it is not built for ambushing

[alpine sleet]

mh

[analog mirage]

Cheetahs barely win anyways

Cheetahs don’t get nuke attacks

[dusky surge]

a carno does not have any of the "ambush" advantages a cheetah has. it is large, loud and extremely obvious within its preferred environment. a cheetah is small, subtle and silent

[alpine sleet]

if they rework carno as we were discusing they would bennefit from ambushing imo

[dusky surge]

i really hate ambush carno

it's a dedicated plains hunter, yet apparently designed to ambush? in an environment where it is literally the hardest to hide?

carno should be a dominating presence, not hiding away in some bush

[torn egret]

It's likely that's how they hunted tho. It's built for straight lines, not a race course like a raptor. I think making them capable of ambush is good, but I don't want it to lose the "bull" aspect

[alpine sleet]

irl cheetahs hunt in the plains and still they ambush their preys thanks to their camouflage and tall grass

[analog mirage]

I think Carno needs to be a hybrid of a long distance runner and ambusher

[torn egret]

Carno a tall boi tho lamo

[dusky surge]

this is the point i made, carno has neither

it is obvious as hell and far too tall to hide in grass

[alpine sleet]

so to let things clear

if you had to compare the carno you want with and actual animal

what would it be?

[torn egret]

A bull.

[analog mirage]

A giant tall carnivore cannot ambush in a plains everyone can see it

[dusky surge]

a carnivorous bull

[alpine sleet]

bulls are herbivores

[torn egret]

It's built to hit, not "Chase" it

[dusky surge]

carnotaurus LITERALLY means "carnivorous bull"

[analog mirage]

It’s like a bull trying to hide in a field

[dusky surge]

that is the literal direct translation

[torn egret]

And there's nothing like it alive. cause they went extinct for a reason XD

[alpine sleet]

yes i know but i was asking about a actual counterpart

an*

[dusky surge]

when a bull is charging you down with horns at the ready, you really don't have time to care what diet it has

[torn egret]

But you can't make one. It's a unique hunter

[analog mirage]

Imagine a bull that ate meat. It doesn’t wanna ambush you. It’s too big to hide, it just runs at you and you run from it

[dusky surge]

exactly

[analog mirage]

And dodge it

[alpine sleet]

i don't know i never thought about a carnivore bull and if it would work irl

[dusky surge]

i don't understand the concept that every isle dinosaur needs an irl modern counterpart to contextualise it

[analog mirage]

Ambush nuke Carno is the most unfun thing to play against cause the only reason it works rn is due to the spam bushes in center

It’s just free coverage

[alpine sleet]

not the isle but animals tend to fill similar roles irl

[dusky surge]

and with gateway's flatter, emptier plains, it's not going to be as easy to rely on this playstyle

[torn egret]

The cheetah is also one of its kind, (sortof) and was adapted specifically for the savanna, The Carno is not in the best spot, becuase the plains are also hills, cliffs, etc for balancing and etc

[dusky surge]

not so much on Gateway

the plains on Gateway are plains

they're flat, open and actually good for pursuit hunters to pursue in

god bless them

[analog mirage]

Ambush nuke Carno will not work on gateway as much as people think

At least from what we’ve seen

[dusky surge]

ambush nuke carno also, more importantly, is not fun

it's super goddamn boring

[torn egret]

I think Carno should be a long distance sprinter if it's going to have horrendous agility

[dusky surge]

it is literally one button gameplay

[torn egret]

Meant to say agility mnot stam btw ^^

[alpine sleet]

i didnt say i wanted an ambush nuke carno but a cheetah like carno that is what they told us it is supposed to be from the beginning so the concept of a new made up role is something i didnt consider

[dusky surge]

imho, charge should not use stam but instead rely on a dryo-like cooldown system, where you get two charges that refresh after like, a minute

[analog mirage]

I like to think of Carno like a big boar

[torn egret]

That's an interesting idea tbh

[analog mirage]

It’s not op powerful but will run you down. But in Carnos case it has the size to make that low power work

[alpine sleet]

cheetahs use ambush to approach their prey but still they need to chase it, its just that the chase is too brief

[dusky surge]

yea, but again, cheetahs are not what should be the inspiration for carno

[torn egret]

But they fail 75% of hunts i think

[dusky surge]

because they are WILDLY different

[torn egret]

A cheetah also only hunts smaller prey. And Cheetahs are nimble too.

[analog mirage]

Cheetahs are a very different creature than Carno. They just share the same hunting tactics which make Carno too good but also worse at the same time

[dusky surge]

i honestly have no idea where this statistic comes from because cheetahs are one of the most successful carnivores in nature, it's like some random myth that cheetahs are horrible hunters or something

[torn egret]

Imma look it up rq, I know most hunts are not successful for lots of big cats

[dusky surge]

they're just REALLY bad at protecting their kill because they have little to no defensive capabilities

[torn egret]

So 40-50 % is what the hunt success rate.

Which is fair irl, but in the isle, failure = death lol

[dusky surge]

40-50% is REALLY good

for a carnivore, at least

most hunts for most carnivores end in failure

[torn egret]

But yeah, they can kill, not defend well like you said.

[dusky surge]

yea, exactly

[analog mirage]

Carnivores usually go long periods of time without a successful hunt

[torn egret]

The isle is more unforgiving in some ways compared to irl.

[dusky surge]

like, i guess people decided to hate cheetahs because this myth of them sucking at everything appeared

[analog mirage]

Cheetahs can kill easily. They just usually can’t eat because someone else bullys them off

[dusky surge]

when, no, they're VERY good hunters, one of the best

[torn egret]

I think a lower hunger rate would be a good quality of life adjustment to the game

[dusky surge]

for carno? yea. but animals like deino are fine as-is

[torn egret]

I think theres a small cat in africa that has like 75% kill rate lol

it's tiny af but still scary

[dusky surge]

wild dogs i believe are also nuts

[torn egret]

to small things^^

[analog mirage]

I like the idea of Carno having a fast hunger drain. But it shouldn’t require much food to fill up so it can actually survive off small animals

[torn egret]

African wild dog 60–90%

[dusky surge]

oh, yea, for real

[torn egret]

Small stomach maybe?

[dusky surge]

carno being able to fill up faster on less would be a GODSEND

[dusky surge]

yea, the inverse of cera. Cera has a large stomach

[analog mirage]

The issue is that rn a Omni barely fills half of its stomach

[torn egret]

I think Cera should have a longer hunger time. keeps them scavengers

[dusky surge]

having juvis, smalls and so on actually feed it sufficiently actually permit it to hunt more smalls more sufficiently

[analog mirage]

Not that it should fill up fastest. Just require less food/not eat as much from a body to fill up

[dusky surge]

yea

[torn egret]

Because I love hunting as a cera tbh, but I think its better just to steal food as needed.

[analog mirage]

Cera not only eats fast. It also has a insane stomach to fill

[dusky surge]

i want carno to eat a troodn and gain something out of it. Not like, a good portion of its stomach, but it actually DOES something for carno

[torn egret]

Carno needs to be a sprinter. smaller food amounts, maybe more water needed?
I think QOL changes to the Carno will make the current kit feel better for mid to small kills

[dusky surge]

nah, water should stay

carno hates water

[analog mirage]

Ehhh troodon seems too small for a Carno to gain something

[dusky surge]

it should stay away from it as much as possible

[analog mirage]

Dryo at minimum

To fill less than 1/4

[torn egret]

XD
What aboput more water, but can get water from blood? (As it eats normally)
It seems to come from a dryer area

[analog mirage]

Omni should fill it up all the way with like 1/4 of the body left

[dusky surge]

nah, just keep it as-is

carno should generally just dehydrate slowly

[torn egret]

😦 #shutdown lol

[dusky surge]

this is the ONE survival element that isn't working against it

[torn egret]

but fair

[dusky surge]

(also blood is simply not hydrating)

[torn egret]

Animals are 80% water.
Even dolphins have water conservation like a dessert animal

Off topic tho^

[dusky surge]

unless you as a creature are SPECIFICALLY built to extract water from it, you will literally dehydrate from meat

[torn egret]

I was just spitballing ideas

[dusky surge]

yea, but the issue is extracting that water, many creatures do not have the necessary metabolisms to extract water from meat and blood

[analog mirage]

If you could refill water from blood there would be no reason to drink

[dusky surge]

it requires a very specialised creature to benefit from blood in such a way

[torn egret]

Only work for Carno maybe? because yea, other dinos having that would starve off all deinos lol.

[dusky surge]

ehh