balance-feedback-discussion

[alpine plover]

not really

[frail bobcat]

@ivory forge the omni lacks the pounce miss recovery and tap pounces are too strong

[ivory forge]

Pounce miss recovery? in this 200+ Pingconomy? Hell nawh 💀

If this game had consistent stable ping sure. But whenever theres a fight it shoots to 200 ping

[frail bobcat]

unofficial servers dont have this issue

[ivory forge]

Not everyone wants to deal with woke biased moderators

[golden coral]

Omni lacks the need to aim their pounce, that ought to be more important than miss recovery honestly

[frail bobcat]

dont know why you put woke in there, but there are servers that arent populated by bad mods

[golden coral]

Also I don't believe we balance based on ping that is hopefully going to be fixed (since I doubt the devs intended for the current official experience to be 300-400 ping)

[frail bobcat]

me who still misses pounces because I am still hardwired to the old pounce jumping angle (I have been playing this update for 3 days now)

its getting better tho

[ivory forge]

I havent played the small patch yet

It’s supposedly to fix ping issues

But I doubt that

[frail bobcat]

it isnt. its a rework for ceras vomit

[golden coral]

I don't think the patch was anything more than a rework for cera, that apparently either makes it too good, or too bad, depending on where you ask... xD

[frail bobcat]

just be better and dont get hit

[ivory forge]

Hope they snuck in a secret hotfix for all the hackers

[keen plover]

So tenos attacks don’t get locked out anymore?

[golden coral]

With this ping? Might as well run in a straight line and hope for the best ^^

[frail bobcat]

this is why I currently play on unofficials

[keen plover]

Tap pounce needs to be nerfed. Also higher stamina consumption for an Omni that misses pounce 👍

[frail bobcat]

kisses the ground would have been a better fix

[keen plover]

So true

[frail bobcat]

so no recovery but huge stam punishment?

I see some issues with that, if it would be that way. while it matters in fight with smaller packs, bigger packs of omnis are able to have that omni just getting back its stam safely

[keen plover]

Omni could have a slight debuff to acceleration if they miss, but other than that, I think pounce is manageable.

Small groups are something you can defend against pretty well, but if they have more omnis? Then play at a good terrain or have buddies

[frail bobcat]

a big pack of omnis is death for basically any solo creature anyway

[keen plover]

Yeah generally should be if you’re a mid tier or lower

[frail bobcat]

its pretty dangerous for some apexes too (looking at trike)

[keen plover]

Oh definitely. Well unless they decide to give trike something to counter Omni loool

[alpine sleet]

it had a strong bite force and alt bite, imo it will be way better at dealing with pack animals than most of the playables

including rex but we will see

[keen plover]

I mean stego and anky should technically be the best at dealing with Omni

And if Omni can bring down stego, it should be bringing down trike

[alpine sleet]

the problem is they attacks are way slower than trikes, trike is faster, more agile and can deal good bite damage

also way heavier

[golden coral]

Why would trike be faster/more agile? It's a large and rather tanky critter as well

[alpine sleet]

im talking about its real life counterpart, also stego cant fast turn and trike prob will

thanks to alt bite

[golden coral]

Possibly, but stego doesnt need to turn in the first place

[alpine sleet]

yes but still imo being able to deal good bite damage and alt biting is more effective

[golden coral]

If omni is "safe" vs stego in mounting/dismounting, they'll have no problem with trike, even if it turns with alt, you just let the omni opposite of where the trike is looking pounce

[alpine sleet]

also they cant face pounce against a trike

[golden coral]

Also why would trike bite? Sure, it gets a bite most likely, but hardly the main attack, and I doubt a bite will oneshot an omni anyway

No, can still rear pounce though

[alpine sleet]

not main attack, but in the concept art its killing a omni with its bite and it had a strong bite force irl, one of the strongest among herbivore carnivores

[golden coral]

It just seems very strange to think trike would handle omnis better than stego

[alpine sleet]

idk maybe youre right, maybe diablo will give us a hint

on how it will go

[golden coral]

Maybe, but diablo might have it better, smaller and thus more likely more agile

Also smaller target to hit for a pounce

But I do expect omnis to deal with diablo quite easily, as easy as with teno if not easier

[keen plover]

Teno is a good reference imo. Useable alt attack and very fast turn in place and it struggles against 2 good omnis. Forcing it to use terrain

[alpine sleet]

like you want it to be like that or you think it will be like that? because imo teno is super bad against omnis

but makes sense for diablo to be weaker against pack hunters since it will prob win against anything around its same size or even bigger

[golden coral]

I think it will be like that. Teno have the capability to attack both front and back (claws and slam/kick), while diablo can only attack front. Making both sides and rear valid for pouncing safely. Sure, there's the "if I pounce the face of dibble, it hurts", but well, you just bait it into turning one way, then the other omnis get an opening. And more so than teno where you only have sides, whereas with dibble you also got the rear to pounce most likely.

[alpine sleet]

yes makes sense, it shouldnt be better than teno in every aspect

[alpine sleet]

yes thats true

[silver relic]

i think dibble will be way harder to pounce, it's very short and stocky compared to teno. teno you have to much real estate because of how long it is

[dusky surge]

that's true, but dibble also has far more openings

3 unprotected flanks

[silver relic]

depends, i have no idea how fast they're going to let it turn, or if theyll give it a turn in place animation or back kick. plus ping issues

[dusky surge]

i can see a lot of asspouncing happening to deal with it. One omni distracts from the front, while packmates attack from behind

[silver relic]

in legacy they had a tight turn

[dusky surge]

they have a sparring stance

they can strafe while using the stance, allowing them to keep their horns and head to the opponent

[silver relic]

2 dibbles ass to ass will be obnoxious

[dusky surge]

oh yea

dibbles will actually be decent in herds

[silver relic]

2 tenos ass to ass is useless because theyll kill eachother

[dusky surge]

which is honestly rare for the isle because wow a lot of our herbivores kinda suck at herding lol

pachy friendly fires a lot, stego is the king of AoE accidental friendly fire, teno is better at one on one brawling than teaming up

pachy is arguably the best, since several of them can quickly incapacitate a foe

[silver relic]

tbh ive seen worse playing carnivore, every time i play omni or troodon my packmates drop like flies to random things. nobody is self aware, that's why so many people flock to deino, stego, carno, cerato. easy to recover when you aren't fragile so you can afford a lot of mistakes

[dusky surge]

true

i love troodon personally, but wow people are bad at it

[silver relic]

i do think the crappy ping plays a part but we'll see how well they do when/if it gets fixed

[dusky surge]

i honestly believe troodon is very powerful if allowed to do its thing

it does surprisingly well at dispatching ceratos

[golden coral]

@limber swift Yes, you're a carno, you're not meant to survive more than one hit from a large and powerful animal. Most likely a trike or rex would kill you outright, not even letting you survive one hit. I'd suggest you stick to going after things you can charge and knockdown/stagger, and leave anything that would inflict a self stagger/stun alone.

[dusky surge]

powerful carnivore (1800kg of pure death) vs feeble herbivore (6000kg of free food)

[silver relic]

i'd rather fight a carno as troodon tbh, cerato alt bite sometimes hits you right off its side, and theyre dummy fast at it

[dusky surge]

true

but the "hit off side" thing is its own issue

its not even latency, its something else entirely

[silver relic]

yeah, just another isle bug

once that and ping are fixed ill play troo again

[golden coral]

Should go cera instead, vomit rework makes stego hunting very viable from what I've seen. Should be interesting to see how it goes.

[dusky surge]

vomit rework is interesting to me

i think they need to follow up with making it weight-based

juvi ceras making stuff 100x their size vomit is absurd

[slim dragon]

My power grows

[keen plover]

I like the Cera changes. Fun to play as and play around.

Well if you manage to have the speed or massive size advantage over Cera

[keen plover]

How did I miss the stun suggestion loool

@compact bolt That would be overkill for Cerato.

It's in a great spot right now.

[dusky surge]

@shadow dome I agree with nerfing charge, but its bite damage is already low enough

[shadow dome]

I havent noticed

@dusky surge what do you suggest we do to increase the survivability of the other dinos?

[dusky surge]

Nerf carno's charge damage and possibly knockdown threshhold

From 350 damage and the ability to knockdown anything less than 100% of its own weight to something like 200-250 damage and the ability to knockdown things equal to or less than 50% of its own weight

Then buff its stam and possibly trot rate

Because those need buffs badly because they are garbo

[shadow dome]

Hmm

They seem reasonable

[frail bobcat]

@keen plover wait what?

Gotta try that out

[keen plover]

Galli has it the worst for obvious reasons, but it's there for all the other creatures that jump

It's an unfun change

[frail bobcat]

Aw hell nah

[keen plover]

If it was intended

[frail bobcat]

Why fix something that didnt need to be fixed

[keen plover]

Yeah idk

[frail bobcat]

It wasnt in the patch notes, so we can hope for a fix I guess

[keen plover]

Well at least ptera can run and fly now so it's not bad anymore

[keen plover]

Hopefully

[dusky surge]

perhaps there's some unlisted bugfixes

considering ptera can do that takeoff now

[frail bobcat]

Maybe messing with the takeoff messed up the other playables jumps

[dusky surge]

apparently teno diet is also bugged

[frail bobcat]

In what way?

[dusky surge]

apparently mountain ash dont give nutrients

havent tested yet tho

[keen plover]

...

[frail bobcat]

I guess something like that should mean another hotfix

[keen plover]

bruh 😦

[frail bobcat]

Like really soon

[keen plover]

I'm assuming they're saving any balance changes for Gateway

But fixes should happen if possible

[dusky surge]

probably

[keen plover]

I wonder when the bodies will be fixed

[dusky surge]

apparently bodies got improved too according from what i've heard

but honestly, i've just heard random stuff

havent tested at all yet

[keen plover]

Could be some new patch misinfo

[alpine plover]

@olive wraith when you play carno and other dinos, if you press "Z" your dino will walk slower but turn faster, so that's already implemented in the game.

[olive wraith]

That does sound about right but I don't think it impacts acceleration and trot.... or it may be too subtle I don't know.

[dusky surge]

im pretty sure it doesnt impact turnspeed, at least last i checked

[alpine plover]

it actually does

[alpine plover]

mhh, could be

[olive wraith]

Not entirely sure about that actually... if my memory serves me right, the Carno still does the turn animation (In-place turn).

[dusky surge]

huh, you're right, they slow down on landing

[keen plover]

Even a slight drop causes it

[dusky surge]

just tested in private server

now gonna test some other things

[alpine plover]

i think it turns a little bit more faster (i'm not sure), but if you wanna ask for carno to turn faster you won't get votes, i already tried a few days ago.

[olive wraith]

I want it to have a reasonable turn when it's not using its top speed... (that being the only reason it needs a bad turn as I understand it)

[dusky surge]

i dont think it needs a faster turnrate tbh, especially not with the coming accel buffs

[olive wraith]

Acceleration was never an issue for me, the turn is though. Just doesn't make sense why it needs to have a constant bad turn rate.

[dusky surge]

i mean, carno irl literally had a bad turnrate

[frail bobcat]

because devs said so

[dusky surge]

that's an actual thing it has

[olive wraith]

Utahs can still fight and survive since it will keep its bad turn when at top speed.

[frail bobcat]

isnt it good that the matchup wont be onesided then?

omnis arent supposed to instadie when they fight a carno, they are just supposed to have a hard time

[olive wraith]

Hey man, I ask for realistic rex, u say its a game... then you come with the realism argument when it suits you -_-

[olive wraith]

I agree

Nothing I have suggested would lead to omnis insta dying

[frail bobcat]

um ackshually, the realism fits here. the rex is supposed to look like the 90s rex, while the carno design aims for realism

[olive wraith]

Because?

[dusky surge]

because realistic rex would obliterate the ecosystem

[frail bobcat]

because it was said so, regarding rex

[olive wraith]

So no good reason?

[dusky surge]

no reason you'd ever be happy with, no

[frail bobcat]

they just want this version of rex in the game, thats it

just like omni looks like the jp-velo, rex looks like the 90s rex

[olive wraith]

Anyway... before we get off topic, why would omni start insta dying?

[dusky surge]

high accel, high speed, high turn

not much an omni can really do against that

[frail bobcat]

it can bork

[dusky surge]

that it can do

[olive wraith]

Well no, it cannot use its high speed and turn rate at the same time if my proposal was to be implemented

[frail bobcat]

wont be very effective, wont be very long, but it can bork

[dusky surge]

it doesn't really matter though? It can quickly change its path

With the high accel

[olive wraith]

But won't catch the omni unless it speeds up, in which case the omni has the agility advantage

[dusky surge]

but it can literally just accelerate up your ass

[frail bobcat]

carno can hit top speed very fast with that change

[olive wraith]

Do we even know what the change will be?

[frail bobcat]

yes

[olive wraith]

...

[frail bobcat]

it was shown on dondis stream

[olive wraith]

Oh boy

[dusky surge]

we also know it's getting more than just that

[olive wraith]

Was it near instant?

[frail bobcat]

pursuit carno please

[dusky surge]

basically, yes

[olive wraith]

Ahhhhh

[frail bobcat]

isnt it also supposed to get a stam buff?

[olive wraith]

Why... such a bad decision imo

[dusky surge]

to quote "are you ready to miss your target and say it doesn't matter because I'm fast"

dondi's word

[olive wraith]

Kill me... ruining the balance again

[frail bobcat]

I am not going into the plains in gateway then, lmao

[dusky surge]

i mean, if it's still designed as an ambush hunter you'll probably be fine

[olive wraith]

Imagine a pack of 3.... no escape for the omni

[frail bobcat]

which it hopefully wont be

me want pursuit carno

[dusky surge]

i mean, that's when you get into the forest

or over a river

or literally any body of water tbh

[olive wraith]

I mean if its caught in the plains

[dusky surge]

i mean, that's KINDA on it

for not seeing the 3 carnos and walking into plains

[frail bobcat]

you can choose to not go into the plains

[dusky surge]

like

or wandering into the middle of carno territory

knowing full well you're on the menu

[frail bobcat]

where the only thing really predating on land waits for you

[olive wraith]

So anywhere flat and no obstruction... omni should essentially die?

[dusky surge]

against carno? probably, yea

its literally a small game hunter

it'd be nice for it to actually do that for once

[olive wraith]

That's just bad balance imo, this game already lacks skill based combat and we're making it worse

[frail bobcat]

luckily, spots like that arent that common on gateway

[dusky surge]

they're more common than on Spiro

flat, open plains are far more frequent now

[frail bobcat]

but you can still go somewhere else that isnt deep jungle

[dusky surge]

which is nice because spiro plains are horrid

[frail bobcat]

which balances it

[dusky surge]

yea we actually have biome variety

[olive wraith]

If omni gets a death sentence from plains, what small game will stand a chance on the plains? If nothing, then what will Carno be hunting in the plains?

[dusky surge]

carno isn't going to be as good in the highlands, coasts, swamps or jungles

[dusky surge]

galli, probably, due to its speed

[olive wraith]

Just galli?

[frail bobcat]

herbis that need to go to the plains because of diets

[dusky surge]

i mean

idk what herbis are SPECIFICALLY plains animals besides stego

[olive wraith]

Didn't really specify herbi

[dusky surge]

well what current animals are specifically plains animal, besides stego and galli

[frail bobcat]

not many, but many will have diets at the plains

[frail bobcat]

deino

[dusky surge]

i kinda hope not tbh, i dont see why you'd need to do a Spiro and just force every animal into plains again

[olive wraith]

Nothing apparently... and anything that steps on the plains will get insta killed... so nothing will; hence Carno probs won't stay in the plains

[frail bobcat]

I dont mean all of them, but some are gonna have one diet on the plains

[olive wraith]

I mean small game (anything)

[dusky surge]

i mean, doesn't migrations specifically avoid that

[frail bobcat]

but one of their migration could land on plains

anyway, carno will have enough food

[keen plover]

maia !

tbf it can chill anywhere, but

[dusky surge]

yea but maia's fine thanks to its size

[olive wraith]

Yeah... wouldn't call that small game

[dusky surge]

also, in reference to your recent comment about falls causing slows, it actually is a pounce penalty lol

[keen plover]

It's still in carnos range at least in groups

With instant acceleration, Carno is doing fine in a lot of places

If that also means instant charge

So follow the migration path and blitz anything that goes by

[frail bobcat]

its just better in plains, its not unviable in other biomes

[keen plover]

Yeah 100%

[olive wraith]

I mean Carno is probs even stronger in jungles since omnis can't pounce without the high risk of hitting a tree

[dusky surge]

no it isn't lol

[frail bobcat]

tap pounces

[dusky surge]

tap pounces, omnis having cover to constantly ambush, the ability to disengage with ease, way too many obstacles

[olive wraith]

Can still get smacked if the Carno is constantly moving

[frail bobcat]

its not that likely

and if the carno is constantly moving, it will bleed out very quickly

[olive wraith]

Assuming uve already applied enough bleed lol

[frail bobcat]

one or two pounces deal massive bleed if you keep running

[keen plover]

On this note, of course

[olive wraith]

Once again, you'd have to apply the bleed, with its new acceleration and dense forests (if there are any on the new map), ull likely get clunked.

[keen plover]

3 small game hunters in their preferred biome should 100% delete an Omni

If they're struggling then something is wrong lol

[frail bobcat]

a carno misses a charge, needs to turn around, omni gets the pounce in the meantime

[olive wraith]

I mean it shouldn't be handed to them... which is essentially what will be happening.

[frail bobcat]

it has still bad turn that you can abuse

[olive wraith]

Not with the instant acceleration

[dusky surge]

3 carnos, chasing a lone omni, in the vast open plains? Yea, IDK why carnos shouldn't have that handed to them, the omni should've thought ahead

[alpine plover]

just accept omnis are better in jungle

[frail bobcat]

your turn it still bad, you will need to turn with less speed. those are the moments omnis can use to pounce you

[alpine plover]

also omnis can bite your tail and you can't alt bite him just behind you

[frail bobcat]

instaturns like ceras and omnis can perform arent a thing for carno

[keen plover]

I assume all players are competent in the matchup, so yeah, the Omni is likely dead

Now if the Carno's completely suck, then fine

Omni gets to escape. No issues with that

[olive wraith]

I literally run for the jungle as Carno if a pack of omnis hunt me... Carnos are much stronger in jungles against omnis (as is)

[keen plover]

That's true.

Carno sucks in the open right now

and Omni is meh in the jungles

[frail bobcat]

but its mainly because they are really dense

[olive wraith]

That's fair.

But all things remain the same, Carnos will remain oppressive in the jungles, so ull likely get alot of omni players complaining.

[keen plover]

Also bushes / trees knocking you off.

[frail bobcat]

which makes dense jungles worse than normal jungles

[dusky surge]

the issue with carno is you really dont have a reason to not be in forests

if there was something like, allo, alberto, something like that, carno would avoid forests because its lack of agility will get it into situations where its kinda just screwed

[olive wraith]

The speed difference and acceleration will make it so allo and Alberto likely won't be an issue

[dusky surge]

i could see cera bullying carnos in jungles, based on the carno's more limited ability to get away

[frail bobcat]

but they can still force you out of the forests

[dusky surge]

the new vomit does pretty well at that

[olive wraith]

I mean, if its a small forest, sure.

[frail bobcat]

you dont wanna stay somewhere you are constantly endangered of being ambushed

if I know a allo or aberto is in a forest, I aint staying there. it will steal my kills, I cant chill for a few minutes and I need to be super careful

its not about being able to escape, it can severly threaten your food source by yoinking your kills

[olive wraith]

Can always, grab a few bites or chunks... also where does that leave omnis xD

Get clapped in the plains and forests by carnos, and while in the forests, constantly get clapped by midtiers.

[alpine plover]

bro why do i puke when eating when i never have been hit by a cera?

they didn't fixed vomit lol

[slim dragon]

eating rotten food ?

[alpine plover]

nah

i just killed it

a carno

[frail bobcat]

omnis can avoid them better because of their size and agility

[slim dragon]

and you are ?

[frail bobcat]

you just overate

[alpine plover]

omni

[frail bobcat]

you just overfilled yourself

then you puke

[slim dragon]

Yeah, maybe as dicksonoteus said you may have overate

[olive wraith]

I mean that more or less depends on the ambushing players awareness. Omni will become useless imo.

[alpine plover]

?

i was about to starve

i didn't even arrived to 100% food and i throw up

[frail bobcat]

nah, you can outrun or outstam everything except gallis, which are your prey

[dusky surge]

did you eat bones or rot

[slim dragon]

Then I don't know, possibly a bug indeed

[alpine plover]

nope

[alpine plover]

ye

i reloged and now i'm fine, i'm not puking anymore

could be a bug, i will try to record it to report it

[frail bobcat]

the only natural land predator of omni is carno imo. everything needs to be really lucky to kill a omni. a omni needs to be unaware of its surroundings for you to get a kill

[dusky surge]

essentially, yes

and if the concept art is to be believed, omni will be able to scamper up trees for safety

not very well, mind you, but it can

[frail bobcat]

and rocks, i guess

[dusky surge]

@analog mirage the point is to dissuade a fight, not help ceras win them

[analog mirage]

What’s the point in being a corpse bully if you are the one getting bullied in a fight

[dusky surge]

also motion sickness seems really annoying and unfun

[keen plover]

Literally not the case

[analog mirage]

Yes and no

[dusky surge]

also, cera is not really getting bulled with current vomit

[analog mirage]

Body buff is pretty much non existent

[dusky surge]

what

its literally a hard 50% damage resist how is that nonexistant

[analog mirage]

If you find something you can eat and get buff from two things usually happen

You eat it all so there’s nothing to give a buff

Or it’s been dragged negating the buff

The devs have intentionally said multiple times that Cerato should be the one with the upper hand against Carno. But that doesn’t really happen

[dusky surge]

I personally don't think that should be the case, and if anything, cerato has been buffed in the matchup as of last patch

[analog mirage]

Which I will say Carno really is it’s only poor matchup but it also can’t really defend itself if one decided to chase you anyways regardless of vomit

Can’t outrun (which is fine) can’t defend itself during a fight with it, and the affects of vomit don’t help Cerato survive. They just make someone annoyed after you are already dead

[dusky surge]

vomit def helps it. cancels attacks and the ability to sprint, and with carnos accel, that's a lot of easy hits

[analog mirage]

Well Carnos acceleration isn’t gonna be that bad soon ™️

[dusky surge]

i mean, if its getting that accel and the charge stays as-is, cera's screwed, yea

second strongest attack in the game haha

second only to deino lunge

[analog mirage]

Which is why I want cera to have a running motion sickness for vomit so that it can sorta help it keep a fight in its favor without buffing Ceras stats

[dusky surge]

but that's also just really goddamn annoying and means you essentially just get screwed for even trying to retreat

[keen plover]

Also ignores the other playables

Which would have it worse

[analog mirage]

Remind me if I’m wrong but doesn’t vomiting like refill your stam a bit if you are low?

[dusky surge]

Pachy already has it HORRID against new cera vomit, and it was already bad

[analog mirage]

Or was that fixed

[keen plover]

I wish the trot thing was only a Carno specific thing

[dusky surge]

Insanely long vomit, locked to its garbage trot, can't attack, it's screwed

Because pachy needed another nerf in that specific matchup lol

[keen plover]

Since it seems that's what Cera is being balanced around

[analog mirage]

If carno gets a bit of a rework I think current cera could probably survive but I’m not sure the devs wanna do that considering they persist on it being this oppressive nuke

[dusky surge]

Teno is honestly way better off against cera now though

Since its trot is fine and it can't be stunlocked

[keen plover]

It is and it isn't

Well, in one scenario it's worse off

but overall a buff

[analog mirage]

Pachy just needs its stun back but won’t stun if it hits a fractured area and it’s fine

[keen plover]

The moment you puke, you can't really run to avoid major hits

[analog mirage]

True

[dusky surge]

i'd rather it just stun when it fractures things

[analog mirage]

It’s still about the same for Teno except it doesn’t get vomitlocked to death

[analog mirage]

I mean it pretty much did that already. The issue was it being able to do it over and over

[dusky surge]

no, as in, when you get fractured, you also get staggered

fall off a cliff, get staggered

[analog mirage]

Wasn’t it’s max stun size 2T?

[halcyon elk]

Makes sense.

[analog mirage]

Which it could fracture anything in one hit in that range

[keen plover]

I think 1.8t at the very end

[analog mirage]

Just make it so it won’t stun for hitting fractured areas to encourage it to hit and stun, then run away. (Also maybe a stamina buff)

[keen plover]

I remember Pachy stunning 3t creatures

[analog mirage]

Dear lord

[keen plover]

Good & funny times

[halcyon elk]

But this could also cause the issue of pachy stun locking a carno or cera into oblivion

[keen plover]

Fun as the Pachy. Deleting sub stegos

But horrible balance.

[analog mirage]

If it can only stun non fractured areas that gives a total of 3 stuns per creature. For body, leg and head

[halcyon elk]

True

[dusky surge]

not really, no

it means it gets as much stuns until the thing is fractured

[analog mirage]

If it’s above 1.8T yea

But it can’t stun over that

[halcyon elk]

Up to 2 tons it can fracture. But 1.8 tons and below it can stun.

[analog mirage]

Yea

So it’s not gonna be going around stunning Rex to death lol

[halcyon elk]

I do imagine diablo is going to be. Somewhat of an issue to balance. Likely carno and cera will have difficulty hunting it.

[dusky surge]

in the case of cera, it'd be able to be stun it like 6 times

[halcyon elk]

Considering the girth of diablo.

[dusky surge]

at least

[halcyon elk]

In that case. How about this. Only the fracture itself stuns. Since you can only fracture once.

[analog mirage]

Honestly I’m fine with that considering cera vomit destroys pachy. Don’t fight the cera, just run and smack if it gets too close

[dusky surge]

thats what im saying

[analog mirage]

That works too

[dusky surge]

i just want pachy to be buffed to around 43-44km/hr

[halcyon elk]

Makes sense. Allows pachy to actually run away if a carno is pressing it

https://tenor.com/view/anime-jjba-runaway-gif-14210724

[dusky surge]

why is it barely faster than cera

its speed is actually such a detriment imho

[halcyon elk]

Good question why is it

[dusky surge]

it can barely pressure omni

[analog mirage]

43 is fine and maybe a buff to its stam drain since it’s attacks take a good chunk of its stam

[dusky surge]

yea

[halcyon elk]

Also Diabloceratops is gonna likely have its bane be omniraptors or dilophosaurus

[dusky surge]

likely

i actually see troodon being more of a threat to diablo than dilo

[analog mirage]

Dibble vs Carno/cera is gonna depend how heavy it is

[halcyon elk]

Ngl I can see both. Dilo maybe even able to take on stegos.

[dusky surge]

god i hope not

[analog mirage]

Since from the stream it looks MASSIVE

[halcyon elk]

In a very specific situation.

[dusky surge]

the concept of dilo killing stego will just solidify how garbage stego is

stego is already kinda horrid at what it's meant to do

[halcyon elk]

I'm saying the situation is. In a forest. At night. When now with venom.

[dusky surge]

and stego should not lose that lol

its a stego

[halcyon elk]

And I didn't mean a solo dilo

[analog mirage]

I wonder how dilos venom will actually kill. Please don’t just make it work like Troodons where you go in at certain times for a damage multiplier

[halcyon elk]

A dilo pack could likely punch up if it gets venom off.

[dusky surge]

idk man, the fact omnis are so good at killing stego is already depressing

[halcyon elk]

We do know how it works now. It's shadow clone jutsu.

[halcyon elk]

Omni is made to punch up that far tho???

[dusky surge]

i like how troo's works, but i'd rather dilo works differently because i dont like the idea of venom being the same

[analog mirage]

Well it causes hallucinations and makes your vision clouded yeah but that’s mental stuff not physically lethal

[dusky surge]

not the point. Omni is supposed to punch up, sure, but stego should be an exceptionally competent flank defender, and it really isn't

[analog mirage]

It’s why I feel dilo should focus on hit and running with bleed but uses hallucinations to keep itself safe as (it should be) not nearly as nimble and mobile as Omni

[halcyon elk]

Fair. Likely it's kit rework will be of help. And as I was about to say. Dilo venom is made to distract. And discombobulate

[dusky surge]

idk man, another small-tier punch-up bleeder would be disappointing imho

[analog mirage]

Unless they just make dilos venom a DOT

OR

[halcyon elk]

We essentially get upgraded dilo venom

[analog mirage]

What if it made you more vulnerable to bleed rather than damage

[dusky surge]

I mean, Troodon already has DoT venom

[analog mirage]

Troodons venom is a damage multiplayer for itself

A dot would be more of it’ll tick away health over time even if you aren’t attacking it. You just gotta reapply often

[halcyon elk]

Ngl I just thought about dilo venom being solely more a discombobulator. And death by dilo is death by 100 stabs

[slim dragon]

What if dilo was a herd killer instead ?
Specializing into isolating a specific member of a herd and killing it
Hallucinations seem to perfectly fit the bill for that

[dusky surge]

it also has a DoT

[analog mirage]

It’ll need a decent bite if it wants to do that

Like 100

[halcyon elk]

Fair enough. Likely it would be.

[slim dragon]

Reduced vision range, hitting enemies that aren't there (increasing potential friendly fire)... I imagined dilo's venom could also make it so the poisoned creature sees everything nearby as a dilo

[analog mirage]

Also depends how big dilo is. It seems really big in the stream

[halcyon elk]

That was not its real size.

[analog mirage]

Ok good

[dry whale]

Hello. How can I become a stress tester?

[analog mirage]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-the-neat-part-you-dont-invincible-gif-27194608

700-800kg dilo seems fine to me

[dusky surge]

you cant if you missed the application

[halcyon elk]

Wait until they announce it in #announcements file the application and hope your able to get in. Do note tho that you should instead of just checking out new content actually file out bug reports

[dusky surge]

it spawns a bunch of AI dilos that run at you iirc

[halcyon elk]

Correct.

[analog mirage]

The isle ai

[halcyon elk]

As well as a fog that likely would reduce NV.

[halcyon elk]

The isle ai has actually gotten good.

[slim dragon]

They said it also surrounds you in fog

[dusky surge]

its coded to literally just run at you, look at boar, that's the one thing AI is good at

[analog mirage]

I didn’t watch much of Amarok stream to know how ai is going

I hope they add more variety to the dilo hallucinations like instead of them all running at you. Some would come into line of sight and just walk around till you run up to it

Or some run in and turn around so you chase it

[halcyon elk]

If they can program them to do this. Then it could work.

[analog mirage]

I also really hope the ai keeps the skin of your dilo so players can’t just tell by your skin color in NV

[alpine sleet]

do you think dilos venom will have some kind of cooldown? because imagine a dilo just chases you and inflicts venom all the time for trolling, it would be annoying since it adds a fog effect or something iirc

[dusky surge]

i mean, at that point, just... kill the dilo?

the venom apparently only is effective at night

[alpine sleet]

oh makes sense

[dusky surge]

and it has to bite you to actually apply the venom

if its in range to bite you, its in range for you to hit back

[alpine sleet]

mh yes

[dusky surge]

in fact, the same argument can be made for hypsi, but you can just bite hypsi once and it dies

hypsi actually has a ranged attack too, and it completely blinds you, so it's arguably better at it

[alpine sleet]

yes they are annoying

[alpine sleet]

btw i have been fighting ceras on a free admin server and sometimes i puke twice in the same fight, shouldnt it have a 5 minutes cooldown? maybe its a bug

[dusky surge]

cooldown is random

[alpine sleet]

lol i didnt know that

[dusky surge]

there is no consistent number

[alpine sleet]

alr i see

[gusty crow]

its 20 seconds but ok

[golden coral]

It's random apparently, not always 20 seconds

[gusty crow]

i've done tests and everytime it's been 20 seconds, so idk

[golden coral]

Maybe you've just been lucky, it's meant to be random at least

[gusty crow]

wait, was that confirmed? i didn't see it in patch

[golden coral]

" Vomiting now has a variable cooldown as to prevent players from becoming "vomit locked" when attacked by groups of ceratosaurus', "

[eternal iris]

@random stump they are already punished for landing pounce with how quick alt bites are (and them costing no stamina). Seen far to many utahs get insta killed the second they jump off because of it

[golden coral]

"variable" sounds to me like it's meant to be well, "random"

[gusty crow]

or it could mean different dinos, but then again we tried with stego and it was 20 same with carno, imma do more testing today

[golden coral]

Considering it's meant to prevent vomit lock (seems to me it just delays it, really), I don't think it'd be as useful if it was varied dinos, but maybe

But yes, do test with some of the others too and see

[distant torrent]

I still find it odd why they don’t just allow attacks while vomiting. that’d fix vomitlock as a whole to where it’s no longer an issue

imho, the alt attacks being able to go through the lock was a good step in the right direction

[neon willow]

It may not be necessarily random-- variable could depend on how many times you've been bitten or vomited (vomited twice? Cool down is longer so you can't keep getting punished) as well as maybe depending on source (eating the wrong thing vs cerato attack) or just, as you said, random

[olive wraith]

@random stump I like the idea of making vomit state reduce attack, still requires skill to apply enough bacteria to make them vomit. I have no idea why your post has so many dislikes :/

[random stump]

the isle players see "tiny cerato health buff/make it take less damage from sick creatures so carno doesnt facetank it"
and read it as
"Let ceratosaurus fight 5 carnos solo in an open field at 70% growth"

[olive wraith]

Although I would change your suggestion to just sick creatures dealing less damage. (Not just to cera). Also instead of a health buff it could just get more armour (only if it needs it, I don't really play much cera but I have never struggled to hunt them as carno). And I hate the fact the quicker Dino is the one able to face tank in that match up.

[golden coral]

I'd say the issue lies in also making sure cera can't then use vomit for offense, which it seems to be able to do again now

[random stump]

if its faster it should lose the facetank as a general rule of thumb
excluding a few scenarios like semi aquatics

[tight cove]

because attacking while at the same time violently vomiting makes no sense and it makes stuff able to face tank cera easily

[tight cove]

ive done some testing and in my own tests it seems like if you wait 40 secs you will always make another person vomit, sad part is it still doesnt save you from a carno 💀

[distant torrent]

cera shouldn’t be facetanking without bodies (depending on what it’s trying to facetank, of course lol) it just leads to a bunch of problems that involve other overtuned elements of the playable such as stam and the lack of stam cost in attacks like alt bite and charge bite

[tight cove]

the main problem with carno vs cera rn is that since carno is so fast it can just run away from a cera if its about to vomit then wait for the bile to wear off then contine to face tank the cera again

[tight cove]

even with a body a carno can just run in try to ram it or get bites in then run away to rest and heal then rinse & repeat

[distant torrent]

the cera can just wait for the carno to run out of stam then flee lol it has such far superior stam and agility (though that would be a WHOLE different story and problem if carno gets that MASSIVE agility buff shown in the stream). ceras can easily facetank carnos with the body buff

[distant torrent]

the cera should use its agility to its advantage. ram is also an entire issue because of its insane damage (I still personally want it removed and replaced with an agility move)

[tight cove]

imo i think when carno gets its new acceleration buff the ram dmg should get either nerfed OR reworked

[distant torrent]

I’d honestly say entirely reworked

it’ll probably never happen given how they’ve treated ram so far, but I can only hope

I want significantly reduced damage done to creatures above half of its weight, but give it a significant damage buff to creatures below half its weight

[tight cove]

I mean sure the cera could just try to keep dodging the carnos charges and just keep running until its out of stamina but that isnt really practical all the time sometimes you will have to fight it but when you do in the current state cera is in you cant really do that UNLESS the carno has low food or hp, and with the ceras body buff in a direct face tank the cera def wins but no decent carno is gonna really sit there and face tank a cera thats near a body, there gonna just keep going back and forth trying to land charges and bites.

[tight cove]

thats fair and would fit in more with its "small game hunter" neiche but with that change you can forget about even challengeing a teno or diablo lol

[distant torrent]

which is why alt bites costing stamina absolutely needs to come back. if a cera can bait a carno out of stam, then that carno honestly deserves punishment for being so careless and risky

(though yes carno stam is currently an issue when it comes to cera’s stam and lack of stam cost to attacks that aren’t lmb)

[distant torrent]

which is good. with their speed and outrageous buff coming to their agility, they shouldn’t be dominating things outside of their intended niche. I want 3 carnos to have trouble with a single teno or dibble so it requires genuine skill and planning. (currently, a teno gets demolished by two carnos. ram goes through tail slam. with one carno facetanking, a teno gets left with roughly around half stam and half health, which means 2 easily facetank it without skill)

if carnos actually started having trouble with medium sized game, I’d fully support a notable buff to its hunger drain

[tight cove]

yeah rn carno is just a weird mix of stuff, it doesnt know if it wants to be a small game pursuit hunter or a ambush hunter 💀

[halcyon elk]

I mean. Pursuit and ambush go hand in hand.

At least that's where carno is going likely

With its acceleration getting a big buff

[tight cove]

yeah

[distant torrent]

carno, the god of ambushes and pursuits. there will be no escape

[alpine sleet]

i guess the escape will be bushes and obstacles

[tight cove]

maybe perks will make cera better, i saw on a dev stream that one of the perks will give you dmg resistance to dinos bigger than you and i reallyyyy hope thats stays

[halcyon elk]

And or jukes for days.

[alpine sleet]

rn a carno works as a playable imo but it feels horrible to play with and thats why they should change it

[alpine sleet]

what is a juke? english isnt my main lenguaje

also 2 omnis can easly kill a carno if they know what they are doing the lack of agility feels so unrealistic

[halcyon elk]

A "juke" is essentially trying to get someone to move one way. While going the other in a dast motion.

[alpine sleet]

ohhh thanks i get it now

yes makes sense, that used to work even when carno had its old agility

[tight cove]

also notice how pachy is completely unplayed rn there is a reason for that 💀

[distant torrent]

I’d maybe support that perk for purely small prey animals, but that’d become a combat meta quickly if the buff is significant enough. I really like the idea of perks just changing your life style such as adding certain things to your diet, ability to drink sea water, ability to carry more food, ability to grab food without needing to stop for the animation, etc.

[alpine sleet]

well omnis are everywhere and 2 of them beat a pachy and are faster so no point of playing it

[distant torrent]

heck, maybe even the ability to dive below water

[dense wedge]

its not unreliastic. Cheetah are fast and agile. However they have their flexible tail. Carnos dont have flexible tails

[alpine sleet]

still it feels almost immobile for 2 seconds or so then it gets full speed, it's too exaggerated to be true

its like you can't even catch something that is 2 meters away from you because you are tied in place

[alpine sleet]

maybe they add a perk that lets you hydrate when it's raining

[distant torrent]

that’d be a great perk too. maybe also one that allows you to get varying levels of hydration from plants or meat

[alpine sleet]

yes makes sense, at least a bit of water

[distant torrent]

(maybe eldering and nesting can improve that perk so you gain more hydration)

[alpine sleet]

yes im glad nesting will be usefull

[distant torrent]

makes nested in creatures more valuable and makes people less willing to lose them

[alpine sleet]

rn it has no point

[distant torrent]

yep

a sea teno with the ability to dive and dine on sea plants is my dream

[alpine sleet]

yes i suggested that as an ability for teno so it's more releated to swamps

but it could also work as a perk, like not only for teno but maybe every playable can get a perk to dive underwater for a few seconds at least

[distant torrent]

I currently don’t really like the idea of teno being geared towards swamps and water right now purely because of the deino situation. with gateway though and the deino being beaten with that difficulty stick, it’d be a beautiful thing for teno

[alpine sleet]

yes, i also saw that there is a large shallow swamp zone on gateway

maybe tenos can use it because they benefit from others being slower

[dusky surge]

not a fan of that one, or at least, i hope it's so minimal it barely matters

[alpine plover]

hello guys, how am i supposed to lose 40hp for 2 kicks being a carno?

maybe to op

[dusky surge]

what

[distant torrent]

teno having a perk to where it can run in deep water it can stand in is so appealing to me

[alpine sleet]

yea sounds good

[cosmic pelican]

Dont mess with tenos
"Play stupid games, get stupid prizes"

[dusky surge]

teno is def not OP

it once again sits perfectly in the "balanced to mildly weak" range

[distant torrent]

[alpine plover]

ye

lol

[dusky surge]

at least teno is finally free from getting stunlocked this update lol

[cosmic pelican]

I sure love seeing teno getting beaten to the ground every update

[dusky surge]

no more pachy or cera preventing it from doing thing

honestly, vomit patch is really good for it

[alpine plover]

that's right lol

[tight cove]

Yeah nothing too big just like %5 dmg resistance

[distant torrent]

nothing fills me with more serotonin than seeing teno get a well needed W

[dusky surge]

honestly, teno is a solid "okay" now

simply because it can now fight off ceras semi-competently

ceras can't rely on bumrushing it down after first vomit

it can actually force the ceras to move away or get hit, giving it more time to prepare for future attacks

[tight cove]

Yeah teno is good rn it doesn’t need a single change to it

[dusky surge]

i'd argue it needs a few buffs but

it's... okay. not good. just okay

[distant torrent]

(except for a change that allows it to more competently defend against omnis once the alt attacks are fixed)

[tight cove]

And all they gotta do is give pachy stun on fractures and it becomes perfectly balanced

[alpine sleet]

the problem i see is that tail slam and kick are almost usless against omnis

[dusky surge]

i mean

essentially, yes, teno struggles against omnis HARD

[distant torrent]

they honestly really are most of the time

[tight cove]

Yeah but you can’t really do anything about that there just so agile lol

It just comes down to player skill I guess

[alpine sleet]

i never use them against omnis maybe its my problem but its so hard to hit them for me

[dusky surge]

teno needs more options to deal with omnis tbh, it's just incapable of punishing atm

[tight cove]

If your good at making good predictions and reads on the Omnis then you’ll be fine

[distant torrent]

I don’t either unless I know it’s going to hit (eg. a brainless omni player running directly towards my ass for a very bad pounce)

[tight cove]

But they need to bring back pounce recovery 100%

2 bad Omni playes can actually kill a good teno player 💀

[dusky surge]

yea

[alpine sleet]

sadly the best option is to spam the claws, i killed 3 omnis without using kick and tail a single time but i dont like to fight like that

[distant torrent]

my only current idea to help teno against omni is to improve its bleed resistance and to give its tail an aoe swing kind of like stego

[alpine sleet]

or be very good at making predictions

[tight cove]

Teno has to have a weakness though

[alpine sleet]

and it will be even harder in the future, omnis will be able to pin large preys in groups

[distant torrent]

the weakness would be actually hunting in reasonably sized packs to bait attacks for the others to attack

[dusky surge]

the entire point of teno is to be a generalist

its weakness is that it isn't particularly great at any one thing

[alpine sleet]

i think that rn is good at 1v1ing but weak to packs

and imo that should be diablo right?

[tight cove]

Yeah

Teno used to be able to handle Omni packs well the only thing is now they have no pounce recovery so you can’t take advantage of any mistakes they make.

[alpine sleet]

yes :/

[solid imp]

idk abt all of u but i personally love fighting omnis souly bc of the ability to knock them off using trees. i havent played teno much but when i did i took on a pack of 6 by repeatedly knocking them off in a forest, and i play cerato all the time and its how i fend them off

the only animal i cant do that with is carno bc of its turn speed, but they r faster then omnis so you just have to see them coming and run

[keen plover]

It can be stunned for a particularly long time & it's pretty easy to do. Although yes, 1 v 1 it is favoured against Cera. But it also still dies to 2 Cera's pretty easily. So if 2 Ceras are in a certain range of Teno, it's dead. Can't really escape too well or fight back.

[hallow flint]

CAN THEY PLZ BRIN GHTE OLD ALT ATTACK BACK

[quick cargo]

@tardy pollen explain how giving carno more diet and canni will keep the population down? You only give it more food to eat

#isle-discussion message

[distant torrent]

people with less experience with carno and cannibalism tend to have that view point. I even thought that way until I played carno last update and joined the megapacks of them. it opened my eyes significantly and explained to me why there were so many megapacks everywhere lol

[novel walrus]

one of the main reasons for it being removed was things like carno. now carno has to drift stop and use alt attack. back then it could stop instantly in place and use it when running

[alpine plover]

guys

check out this hitboxes

[dusky surge]

i aint downloading that

[alpine plover]

k

it's not a virus lol

u can test it in virustotal

it's a video 🙂

[sturdy mirage]

@alpine plover Please try to embed your files properly - for .mkv files, try renaming them to a .webm file.

[alpine plover]

ok

[slim dragon]

<@&933486433342222376> That isn't feedback

[dusky surge]

@wet frigate pachy has the worst trotspeed in the game

not even a joke, it's legit the worst, besides straight up aquatic animals

[distant torrent]

pachy is so agonizing to play as. glitched food, takes years to eat holding e, horrible trotspeed, horrible bleed resistance, can’t alt attack while running

[dusky surge]

well actually they have one of the better bleed resists lol

their bleed resist is better than teno, omni, troodon, stego, carno, galli, beipi, ptera, dryo, hypsi

[distant torrent]

they still seem to bleed out fast lol not sure if it ties in with the health or not, but at least in 2 v 1s with pachy vs omni, pachy seems to bleed out pretty fast

galli’s bleed is understandable because it’s a speed demon

(teno needs help with its blood pool)

[hollow canyon]

it ties with the health - Pachy has less health, it still loses less blood than any other playable except Deino and Cerato

also if it's 2 Omnis vs 1 Pachy then I honestly would be surprised if it DIDN'T bleed out fast

[distant torrent]

I honestly have a severe problem with the current bleed omni does, especially if tracking gets improved and if it’s true that they’ll be able to pin larger prey with more omnis that latch on (no idea if that’s actually coming)

and with the current lack of missed pounce punishment and the effectiveness of tap pouncing it’s a giant slap in the face

[cyan root]

Agreed, I feel like Omni is overtuned (and being able to pin large prey with many Omnis seems absurd and unrealistic imo)

[hollow canyon]

Omni is overtuned and the water is wet... those aren't exactly breaking news, Omni has been extremely overpowered since they removed the punishment for missing the pounce

[silver relic]

i dont know the underlying stats of dinos but pachy, although healing bleed fast, probably has an extremely small blood pool. i'd rather have it the other way tbh. you can't even outrun a cerato in most cases so running to find a spot to lay away from battle is kinda impossible

[hasty coyote]

The way I would describe current pachy is clunky at best, and incredibly underpowered at worst. In my experience, the Omni matchup isn’t that bad. I can generally take down 2 maybe 3 depending on their skill, and a good Omni can be a big challenge. The ability to spam alt swings with no stam cost is honestly quite helpful between fishing for a ram.

Carno in its current state isn’t too hard to deal with, since you can get a body or leg fracture and tank the bite, then easily juke it out. Also the ability to parry a charge without receiving a fracture is huge if the carno tries to charge, but they can easily just run and bite. However if carno gets better turning, then pachy is really going to struggle.

However, pachy’s main issue comes with cera. They have very similar speed and stam, so keeping away is difficult unless you immediately run. If you use a bit of your stam in the open field, then a cera jumps out a bush and bites you, you’re probably just dead. You have to use all your stam to create enough distance to sit, but then your bleed is low and taking a while to heal. So they can easily follow the trail and catch up. Once your bleed is low enough to slow regen, you’re dead if they haven’t already caught you. I have only escaped ceras by running in the forest and hoping they give up the chase.

[distant torrent]

cera seriously needs to have its stam consumption looked at and I’m surprised it hasn’t been touched on in any patches. it makes me doubt anything will be done about it soon

[hasty coyote]

Main issue with touching it is that then it allows teno to try and run it down. So they could buff pachy stam instead.

[distant torrent]

nerfing the stam by a about 10 or a little more seconds won’t affect it vs teno much. by the time teno catches up to the cera, it won’t have enough stam to really attack it and win. with that stam nerf, making a cost for the charge bite would also very much help

but I do agree pachy does need a stam buff regardless but nothing too extreme

[frail bobcat]

@olive wraith the galli accereleration is meant to make it possible to ambush gallis

[hollow canyon]

it's supposed to be a durable, bullish, endurance hunter. I don't think anything is meant to be done about it.

[olive wraith]

It's already slower and much weaker than a carno... there's no reason to have a 3 second acceleration. Dinos with pounce/ram can still ambush it.

1 utah can guarantee a kill if it lands its pounce.

Currently it feels like a truck when compared to heavier dinos such as omni and Carno

[frail bobcat]

Its a plains animal that should stay away from bushes. Its the only real way to ambush it

[dusky surge]

it was never meant to be an endurance hunter, idk where this came from

[olive wraith]

That would remain true if it got its acceleration buffed. Just would mean ceras wouldn't be guaranteed the kill if the galli reacted fast enough, for Carno and Omni, they can still land their ram/pounce.

[hollow canyon]

it was slapped 100 seconds of running time for the lol, yea

[hollow canyon]

a Utah can guarantee a kill if it lands its pounce on many things and there's more coming

[olive wraith]

What is your point?

[hollow canyon]

that it's irrelevant as a weakness to Galli

[olive wraith]

How is it irrelevant lmao... a single utah (something that's meant to be a pack hunter and is of a similar weight) either shouldn't be able to effectively one shot you... or they shouldn't have an easy time doing so by randomly giving galli a bad acceleration.

[hollow canyon]

it's irrelevant that one animal with an instant kill button can kill it

[olive wraith]

It's not irrelevant... its an animal that's relatively small and common.

[hollow canyon]

when any dinosaur was completely broken in the game the argument "well urmmm DEINO CAN ONESHOT IT" was NOT a good counterargument

and even disregarding tha

[olive wraith]

Are you seriously arguing we shouldn't be balancing based on dinos that it encounters? Are you drunk?

[hollow canyon]

U3 Dryo with 75 dmg that could swarm and kill every animal except Carno and Deino was BROKEN. Guess what? Utah could pounce it and kill it with a single pounce. It didn't change the fact that Dryo was completely broken.

[dusky surge]

the fact there existed a point where dryo could comfortably solo a stego is truly amusing

[hollow canyon]

I think you're arguing that, you're saying that 1 (one) animal being good against it is enough to make it not overpowered is ridiculous.

[hollow canyon]

it truly was, it was so fun to run into a Carno pack, kill all the juvies and run out without a scratch.

[dusky surge]

troodon, for instance, is one-tapped by omni, yet it can really mess up larger animals in a group

[hollow canyon]

^ Omni having a good match up against small things is irrelevant to them being balanced

it's just Omni's pounce being broken as it has been since the game started

[olive wraith]

But galli cannot... its as if you guys are incapable of considering more than 1 factor at a time

[hollow canyon]

it can't? I've seen them swarm and murder things just fine

[dusky surge]

galli absolutely can with that bleed

it also has a nuts mobility that means it can disengage from most threats

[hollow canyon]

this animal was literally meant to accelerate slowly

the devs said it would accelerate slowly

idk why this discussion is even a thing

it doesn't do that ergo they should slow down its acceleration - simply

[olive wraith]

I'm not saying one animal is good against it... I'm specifically pointing out omni as its a very common animal that it will encounter often. If its survivability is that bad, then its maneuverability needs to be top notch.

[hollow canyon]

ok, what else is good against Galli?

[olive wraith]

With its current acceleration? Carno & cera. Probs troodon too

[hollow canyon]

Oh god you want to even increase its acceleration LOL

nvm this discussion is pointless

[olive wraith]

Carno is getting insane acceleration... a much more capable Dino. What are you even arguing about here.

[dusky surge]

the amount of time i've been "ambushed" by ceras as a galli is much higher than the amount of times those ambushes have worked

in fact, a cera has never successfully killed my galli with an ambush

[hollow canyon]

@royal valve Dryo has 120 seconds of Stamina, Omni and Pachy have 105 seconds - still too low and should be increased.

[olive wraith]

Great, let's balance based on your personal anecdotes now.

[hollow canyon]

that getting killed by it is obviously a skill issue

[dusky surge]

the best part about you is how quick you are to jump to conclusions lol

[hollow canyon]

also I'm laughing at the idea of increasing Galli's acceleration

[dusky surge]

it's actually incredible how you take as an example of my experiences as my entire argument

[hollow canyon]

as I said - I'm out of this discussion after I realised you wanted to increase it

[olive wraith]

Why aren't you laughing at carnos acceleration l?

[hollow canyon]

idc to talk to you

[dusky surge]

galli is fast, enduring, has nuts bleed

[olive wraith]

Lmao

[dusky surge]

fair lol

[olive wraith]

Burnt the cpu

[hollow canyon]

Galli is literally immortal if played by a halfcompetent human being

it doesn't need buffs

it's that simple

[olive wraith]

Nice... keep dodging the question.

[dusky surge]

he literally answered it

[olive wraith]

Did he now?

[dusky surge]

"does galli need better accel"
"no"

[olive wraith]

Was that the question?

I'm done lol, you guys struggle to stay honest in a conversation

[hollow canyon]

why would I laugh about it? Carno has a garbage turn rate compared to Galli and the lowest stamina out of the terrestrial playables in the game. Get a grip, seriously.

This isn't a conversation worth having. I have no intention to talking to someone this clueless.

Either stop messaging me with more ridiculous arguments or I will just block you.

[olive wraith]

You started this you joker lmao

[hollow canyon]

because I thought you wanted to keep Galli's acceleration as it was, then I realised you wanted to BUFF it.

[olive wraith]

Don't ping me to start a conversation then act like I'm inconveniencing you.

[hollow canyon]

There's a certain line where an argument isn't worth engaging with

[olive wraith]

Learn to read then... its quite clear in the suggestion.

[hollow canyon]

if I knew what you wanted I'd just downvote you and go on

[hollow canyon]

^

that's it, it doesn't need better acceleration - why would it? Its whole point was being able to run for a long time and being able to increase its speed while having low accelration to even have a weakness.

[olive wraith]

Yes... run back to your echo chamber.

[dusky surge]

you constantly throwing insults isnt helping your case lol

[olive wraith]

I'm not here to make a case.

[dusky surge]

is it that hard to accept people in the world don't agree with you lol

[hollow canyon]

it's w/e he can throw insults all he wants as long as I don't get pinged it doesn't matter

[olive wraith]

Yes... I'm acting like this because you simply disagree.

The dishonesty.

[dusky surge]

what is there to be dishonest about what

like... this is an opinionated argument, honesty isn't a factor

[olive wraith]

OK... well then, on that note, I'm out.

[dusky surge]

ok

[keen plover]

An acceleration buff on galli would essentially mean that it would never die. Pretty much legacy galli. Tbf though, current galli doesn’t really die rn though

[dusky surge]

true as

love current galli tho

think its perfect as-is

manages to combine high speed with fear of predators

[keen plover]

I’d like to see carnos buffs in play against galli. I think it might get more changes outside of an acceleration buff

[dusky surge]

dondi did mention changes for both galli and carno

[keen plover]

True

Galli in numbers will be fine, since speed boost. I do hope solo play is kept around the current level

[dusky surge]

yea

galli is perfectly fine as-is. It's endurance alone makes it very good

[analog mirage]

Debatably Gali shouldn’t even have the flock call because of how fast it is already

Heck….why not give it to dryo instead

Out of any playable to give it to we give it to the 2nd fastest

That’s really all it needs to do. Just be a general nimble runner who you have to ambush in order to kill

Carno does need to be an absolute menace to Gali

[thin mantle]

#balance-feedback message
<@&933486433342222376>

Ty Lunary

[unborn iris]

Have you guys played galli since the recent vomit lock patch? That momentum loss when landing is horrible. 😦

[dusky surge]

okay i can agree its annoying

but the animal itself isn't actually that bad

[unborn iris]

Agreed.

[frail bobcat]

I honestly like the change, it makes it feel like the playables have more weight behind them

[unborn iris]

Not for galli.. There's no way you should get airborne for .1 second and just lose all momentum completely.

Like you basically go from 55km/h to slower than it's trot speed and have to accelerate all over again when you hit a tiny lip or hill.

[frail bobcat]

Oh, its when you get airborne too?

[unborn iris]

Yeah, any kind of air at all.

[frail bobcat]

Nvm, i hate this change

I just experienced it for a bit with jumping

[unborn iris]

I understand a threshhold, like if you take a good drop.

Yeah it feels horrible on galli.

Everything else seems realistic

[mortal tundra]

Galli is the fastest if you have all three diets.

[analog mirage]

There is rarely ever a time you’ll have 1-2 diets at full grown

90% of the time you’ll have 3

[tall bronze]

Diets cool but at the same time very stinky

[mortal tundra]

@west sierra Troodons get venom at 65%. Also troodons are supposed to be glass, because if you get bit by a carno I'm pretty sure something more than 10 times your size would kill you. 😉

[analog mirage]

I do think troodon needs to start with venom as its impossible to hunt as a juvie troodon

[distant torrent]

people will abuse it by spawning in and running back to fights to apply venom for the adults or even other people it’s mixpacking with. it’ll be just as bad as letting juvi omni reopen wounds

[analog mirage]

not really, Venom only gives the damage multiplyer to other troodon and no other species so its only useful in troodon packs. Also while yes they could run back to apply Venom is that really a problem when they grow in 30 min anyways and deal little to no damage as a baby

they are more there for support rather than to deal any meaningful damage

[dusky surge]

it was insanely strong in Stress Testing

[distant torrent]

didn’t know that. always thought the damage multiplier was for everything. but it’d still be abused regardless. the lack of venom at a younger age we have now is very good

[analog mirage]

the only positive is that they cant just come back to fight, which then offers like 3 different issues making it impossible to hunt as troodon till 65%

I am not 100% sure but does venom damage scale from 65-100%?

[dusky surge]

as far as i recall, no

[analog mirage]

If Venom damage actually scaled that would make babys incapable of doing much other than simply applying a stage

relying on adults to do the damage

[keen plover]

Applying a stage is too much for a juvi that spawns and runs at hypsi speed

[analog mirage]

Then again. is this really a game changing thing? on Gateway the map is going to be bigger than what we have now along with cooldowns

Plus babys cannot see anything other than blades of grass they literally have every disadvantage against them

[keen plover]

We’d have to see on Gateway, but it was pretty easy to spawn and run to location like on Spiro when I played on it

Also the camera should be fixed regardless

[analog mirage]

tbf you could also see where you were going which baby troodon cannot

[keen plover]

Yeah so fix it. But other than that, juvis don’t really need to apply venom. Maybe at best you cap them to a certain weight until they’re an adult

[analog mirage]

Cause my main problem I see is that without venom troodon pretty much cannot hunt for food. Which is a big issue when you spawn in at a low stomach

[dusky surge]

i mean, i rarely have a problem with it

and i play troodon all the damn time

compies are an excellent source of proteins for all ages

[keen plover]

Yeah

Although

[analog mirage]

And don’t you spawn at center nearly every time with plenty of food?

[keen plover]

Sanctuaries will have bees iirc

[dusky surge]

not always. sometimes, not always

[keen plover]

Troodon babies could grow off of bees and small ai

[analog mirage]

If there were small ant hills they could dig up that would help

[dusky surge]

@placid bronze a 30% passive damage resist is absolutely insane when you also put into account cerato's 50% chuffing damage resist and its active damage resist it gets from eating

you'd have to nerf the cera to like, 37km/hr at most to make that okay

also, i dont see the relation between damage resist and being a bully

[thin mantle]

Unconditional DR is also just a silly way to say we want Cerato to weigh more than Carno

[keen plover]

I'd rather tweak Carno than touch Cerato

[fading zinc]

how unstuck

am rocked

pls help

[keen plover]

What's your in game name

and server

[fading zinc]

@keen plover trying to rejoining now in queue

[keen plover]

What server though and ingame name. I'll tag the admins in the chat

[fading zinc]

can you actually unstuck me and my friend? we would appreciate that a bunch m8

oh

[keen plover]

I'm not an admin 😦

[fading zinc]

its alright.... ill link name and coord justs come eat us iff not

[frail bobcat]

Bird is just a bird. No thoughts, head empty

[keen plover]

woah dude 😮

[fading zinc]

woah dude.. 😮

@fallow oriole ign Jonsey

[keen plover]

lol wrong bird

What server

[fading zinc]

au 1 sir

[frail bobcat]

Wrong bird

[fading zinc]

@keen plover

[keen plover]

Check where I pinged you

[mortal tundra]

@tiny depot I think pachy is faster than cera. Every time I play as a cera and chase a pachy they outrun me, and if they don't attack (their attacks take stamina) they will escape, because they can run at least as far as a cera.

[keen plover]

Pachy runs at 41.8km/h with a base stamina of 105 seconds
Cera runs at 40.2km/h with a base stamina of 95 seconds

Although Cera players are always likely to have 1 or 2 Carb diets, which pretty much means they run both as long or longer than a Pachy. If they have 3 carbs, they run over 120 seconds

[mortal tundra]

Oh, well then R.I.P. pachys.

[placid bronze]

You are correct, i should have adressed the chuffing buff.
As for the correlation, it is because, atm, cerato is unable to brawl with similarly sized things.
If the point is for cerato to be able to bully other carnivores off of corpses then cerato should have the reasonable ability to express that nature within a hunt, though less so.
Since cerato doesnt do comparably much damage, i reckon the best way to make it hunt with more tact, rather than 3 shotting things, would be to give cera a passive 30% damage resistence.

See, with only the damage resistence, and not a weight buff or anything, Cerato will still get knocked down by things like teno.
This gives cerato a massive disadvantage through that alone, having no ability to knock down or stagger opponents itself

[hollow canyon]

how come you say it doesn't do comparably much damage?

[dusky surge]

i mean... it shouldn't be competently capable of hunting tenos

[placid bronze]

Yes exactly

Teno is a better brawler in a hunt

[hollow canyon]

it does the highest damage out of all the animals barring Deinosuchus and Stegosaurus

[placid bronze]

Cerato should not however, be incapable of hunting teno

and atm it pretty much is

[dusky surge]

not really?

[hollow canyon]

unless its charged bite was nerfed, which I haven't heard of

[dusky surge]

cera in duos can melt a teno

hell, teno even got a nerf just for cera

[placid bronze]

charge bite does 300 damage yes, but only after a charge.
And when in a close brawl doing regular bites and alt bites is more effective

[hollow canyon]

since when?

It did 350 damage last I played the game

when did they nerf it?

[placid bronze]

It only doubles the normal damage

normal is 150 in public

did you play stress testing?

[hollow canyon]

ermm, yea it was since always

no, I didn't

[dusky surge]

it doesnt just double

it does more than double

[hollow canyon]

Cerato didn't double the damage with the charged bite

it did more than that

[placid bronze]

Last i heard it did, fact check me

[hollow canyon]

350 dmg which is the highest damage outside of Deino and Stego

and its normal bite also does insane damage being the fastest attack in the game with the best attack rate

[placid bronze]

More specifically, it does the highest dps

[hollow canyon]

it outdpss Carno

idk about highest I think Teno kicks dealt repeatedly will deal more damage

[placid bronze]

Carno, like other things, is capable of knocking cerato down, this rendering its high damage and dps irrelevent

[placid bronze]

Second highest dps then

[hollow canyon]

it should be about that, the only attack that's as fast as Cerato bite is Stego bite... for gods know what reason

[placid bronze]

at least stego bite isnt as helpful?

[hollow canyon]

Idc about that, I'm just baffled by the fact that Stego has the fastest bite rate in the game which is a really bizarre decision in my mind

anyways the statement that Cerato doesn't do much damage is nonsense it's the best damage dealer outside of the big guys in the current roster

it just doesn't necessarily pull it off in a fight unless it has a serious damage reduction buff going for itself on its side

[placid bronze]

Anyway, the thing i assign a large portion of attention to is the fact that cerato isnt, and shouldnt be, able to stun or knockdown things when it can be knocked down in return.
This is why i reckon it having some passive damage resistence rather than a health buff like others are saying would be more balanced.

[hollow canyon]

which is damn right how it should be

no, it shouldn't have a passive buff, that just makes it stronger at random in any situation where it shouldn't be stronger while nerfing it in its role as a corpse bully

rn it gets a higher buff when around a body

you'd give it a lower buff for no reason everywhere

Weird decision, I just disagree with it

[placid bronze]

Around a body cerato should still recieve a buff

[hollow canyon]

oh then that's an absolute no

[placid bronze]

I imagine the largest bodies would assign an additional 30%

[hollow canyon]

that's nonsense

[placid bronze]

and the minimum from smaller bodies would be 15%

[hollow canyon]

Cerato shouldn't have 80% damage reduction

that's ridiculous

[placid bronze]

It isnt

this changes the current 50%

[hollow canyon]

the whole proposal is honestly just absurd

[placid bronze]

it would have 60%

when stacked

[hollow canyon]

wait, do you want them to stack additively or multiplicativaly?

[placid bronze]

additively.
Passive 30% stacks with the chuffing 30% evenly

[hollow canyon]

I mean either way I vehemently disagree with Cerato having a random defense buff everywhere for no reason

there's 0 reason for it

[placid bronze]

Perhaps it should be lower, though the fact the cerato is considered a brawler character, being oriented towards scavenging or not, means that when brawling it should be capable of effectively taking some sort of hit, as does being a brawler entail

[hollow canyon]

and in the future there will be animals that Ceratosaurus shouldn't even attempt "bullying" due to them being 2x+ larger than it, I don't want every bigger animal to suddenly have to get a separate mechanic that would let them ignore the random damage resistance

[hollow canyon]

I don't think it's a brawler at all, it's very durable for its size and goes insane when there's a body around

but it's small

it's not a big animal

it will struggle with larger animals as it should

[supple sonnet]

Please eat dead bodies and reduce our lag. You have pretty much one job 😂

[hollow canyon]

Tenontosaurus is a brawler, it excels in a close quarters fight because of its insane arsenal full of CC and bleed attacks that vary in range

[placid bronze]

It isnt a brawler atm, but thats the problem because its what cerato should be.
The effects should be exemplified around bodies, meaning that the things cerato can bully have to seriously think about fighting back, and outside of a fight, cerato would deal less damage overall due the fact the it can be knocked down, and the commital animation of the charge bite can be dodged

[hollow canyon]

Ceratosaurus is an animal that wants to nuke the target with its sickness mechanic and dish out fast attacks at the smaller animals or anything that's disabled by the vomit

[supple sonnet]

Well its a bully around corpses but you talk about hunting.

[placid bronze]

Problem with that is the fact vomit lock isnt a thing anymore.

[hollow canyon]

it shouldn't be that though, it has no mechanic to be a brawler its playstyle isn't based around being in the face of its enemy where it can get CCed

[hollow canyon]

as it shouldn't be

[placid bronze]

Yeah, I talk about hunting simply because it is a carnivore, and wont always have a corpse that it can bully someone off of.
That means it needs to be able to hunt in order to survive

[hollow canyon]

if you give Cerato an opening it can dish out a tonne of damage but it isn't brawling with something that has a much better arsenal full of crowd control

Cerato is durable because it handles bleed and fractures better than anything else on land

but that's it

[placid bronze]

Dont missunderstand, im not a cerato main, im a teno main. I speak from the perspective of demolishing ceratos when they try to doing anything other than that job

[hollow canyon]

it's a small animal

an absolute menace to Utahs

[supple sonnet]

I think Cera is already pretty op

[hollow canyon]

I've walked into a pack and shortly after 3 of them were dead and the rest decided correctly they weren't winning this fight

it should be resistant to venom in the future to deal with animals like Dilo or Megalania well

[placid bronze]

Cera isnt quite OP. It may be better than I'm giving it credit for, however some experience, cerato needs a buff to its ability to fight away from corpses

[hollow canyon]

but it shouldn't be BRAWLING with animals larger than itself

[supple sonnet]

This

[hollow canyon]

Carno is half a tonne bigger, there will be animals even larger than that, Cerato shouldn't just ignore 60% of their damage because hell yea, bullying things larger than itself

[placid bronze]

Everything is larger than itself, if it is only ment to brawl with smaller carnivores then it doesnt need any damage reduction even when around bodies

[hollow canyon]

it does have a bad match up against Carno, no questions about that

[supple sonnet]

I believe this might be a Skill issue. Right now all the kiddos that played Rex on Legacy are on Cera

[placid bronze]

The point of that effect is to give it an edge around larger things

[hollow canyon]

it SHOULDN'T have an edge against larger things

[analog mirage]

The issue is that being a corpse bully is such a small niche that you’ll rarely ever do it.

And Cerato being smaller and slower than Carno needs to be able to escape it or defend itself

[hollow canyon]

things like an Allosaurus or Albertosaurus literally dwarf it

[placid bronze]

Why not? This is a game, not real life, and its not fighting Allos or anything

[analog mirage]

All of Ceratos other matchups are fine Carno is really the only problem

[hollow canyon]

it's a midget compared to them and it looks like it would die if Allo slapped it with one arm or if an Alberto sat down on it

it shouldn't have an "edge" against such foes through sheer willpower and force of hopes and dreams

60% damage reduction is a ridiculous amount

[analog mirage]

Yeah cera shouldn’t really stand a chance if it fights a Allo or Alberto by itself

[placid bronze]

You cant rely just on what something looks like though. If that was the case then Omni would be functionally a vegetable, and shouldnt be doing the things it can do

[hollow canyon]

tbh that's more of a problem with Carno having an absolute nuke on its charge

[analog mirage]

Carno really just needs to be looked at again and rebalanced

[hollow canyon]

it wouldn't be functionally a vegetable Idk what you mean

it isn't tanking attack from animals twice its size like its nothing

it relies on its agility to avoid them

[supple sonnet]

Carno needs a rework somehow, there is a lot not OK right now

[placid bronze]

No dromaosaur would be capable of doing what omni can do agaisnt the other characters

[hollow canyon]

it should have the charge damage nerfed, it's really that simple

if it can take out 300 health of anything it hits with that then there's honestly 0 reason why it should be knocking things down

either or the damage goes down or the knockback goes away

[analog mirage]

Teno kick does the same thing

[supple sonnet]

Nerved Charge damage, a bit more stam and less Hunger drain

[hollow canyon]

but Teno kick is a back facing attack on a much smaller animal - it also doesn't do that much damage

[placid bronze]

Now thats something to agree upon

[hollow canyon]

Carno should imo deal little damage with its charge and have to follow that up with its bites

[placid bronze]

teno kick does the highest in its arsinal

[hollow canyon]

and less than Carno charge

[analog mirage]

Buff Carnos stam, nerf the turn radius while running so that it’s horrible in Forrest’s, nerf charge damage to 190-220

[hollow canyon]

it's also backward facing and isn't slapped on the fastest animal in the game

[placid bronze]

And buff its acceleration

[analog mirage]

My main issue is that Carno can debatably work just as good in a Forrest as it can in the plains

[hollow canyon]

disagree, buff the runtime by decreasing stam cost on running, nerf the charge damage to 100

[placid bronze]

It being backwards facing isnt really all that in this case, any relatively good teno knows that you can turn and aim fast enough to make it practically a forward facing attack

[hollow canyon]

it's irrelevant because it's nothing like Carno charging at you whenever it wants and dealing even more damage with that attack while running at lightspeed

I don't want to get into Teno balance discussion now because it's a different story

[analog mirage]

That’s what I mean, using less stam while running but yes

100 seems too low considering Carno needs to be able to hit nimble creatures and quickly finish them

[placid bronze]

Im gonna use your argument of something looking like it should or shouldnt do something.
Would you really expect a 2 ton animal running 64 kmh to only do 100 damage?

[hollow canyon]

and you could think about it if Carno's charge wasn't the ultimate weapon

[hollow canyon]

buff its bite then

[analog mirage]

No

[hollow canyon]

by this logic I'd expect Carno to just murder Cerato with its bites, it's irrelevant

[analog mirage]

The charge should do roughly around the same as the bite except it costs stam and can be used to stop things from running away

[hollow canyon]

it's bigger, stronger, faster and bites harder

[analog mirage]

So 190-220 is plenty fine

[hollow canyon]

much harder in reality

[placid bronze]

Then if its irrelevant, Cerato having the ability to weather a fight with larger things is also fine, and can be balanced around

[hollow canyon]

it shouldn't because the charge denies the opponent the ability to fight back

[analog mirage]

If it’s gonna do less damage it shouldn’t cost stamina. Or very little

[hollow canyon]

no, it's not. It has the ability to fight Carno or at least that's the point of nerfing Carno here. Fighting ALLO or ALBERTO is a whole different level of absurd

you have no idea how those two compare to Cerato

they'd throw it around like a lion does to a cheetah

look at this

[placid bronze]

Im not ASKING for cerato to fight those things, im asking for cerato to be able to hunt things around its size while also acknowledging that a buff to its hunting capabilities would also give it the added benefit of being able to corpse bully similarly sized things more effectively

[hollow canyon]

Allo and Alberto dwarf it by such an absurd margin it's not even funny

[analog mirage]

Cerato should be terrible at hunting with low speed. But it should be more than capable to defend itself from animals it can’t outrun in a fight

[hollow canyon]

you're not asking for that, you're asking for it to have a random 30% damage reduction pulled from its behind

which is utterly ridiculous

you further want that to stack additively with its chuffing damage reduction

that's an utterly absurd idea

[placid bronze]

This gives it the ability to brawl with similarly sized thing!!

[analog mirage]

Nerfing/ buffing Carno in certain areas is a good start I’m not sure how cera would play out after that

[hollow canyon]

it doesn't that makes it autowin with those things

[placid bronze]

Cerato's biggest weakness is the fact that it can be knocked down without a way to stunn back.
When not around a body, it CANT deal with the damage it recieves when knocked down

[hollow canyon]

similarly sized things to it are things like Baryonyx, Megalania, Kentrosaurus

they'd be fodder to it with those buffs

[placid bronze]

Megalania maybe, but Bary and Kentro would very much be able to fight cera with some creative thinking

[hollow canyon]

yes - some creative thinking like giving them to something absurd like an ability to ignore the damage reduction of other things

[placid bronze]

Nothing should ignore the damage reductions

Creative thinking in they way of something like, for example, Bary with an attack letting it deal no damage or bleed, but is able to cancel or prevent something smaller or equal weight to it from using an ability. Such as pachy ram, omni pounce, or cerato charge bite

[analog mirage]

Cera doesn’t need a pary, actually it already has one with vomit

[placid bronze]

Not cera, Bary is what i said

Cera should be the tank of the mid tiers, even though its the smallest one

It makes for a good underdog

[analog mirage]

First off the whole tiers thing is very debatable based on a playable

Second by most players ripped definition Cerato is not a mid tier

Neither is Bary (Carno is debatable but prob not)

[placid bronze]

First thing i agree with, though for the most part i base the tiering off what communities designated in legacy

Things smaller than Teno are smaller tier, things between cerato and Alberto are mid tier, things between Theri and Anky are pseudo apex, and things beyond Anky are apex

[analog mirage]

My thought process is tiers by sizes rather than power

[placid bronze]

Such things are directly linked in this case

[analog mirage]

Not always

[placid bronze]

Explain

[analog mirage]

Deino by all definitions is a apex yet it’s bite is hilariously terrible for its size

Maia will likely be fairly big and tank but lower damage output

[hollow canyon]

I'm sorry if you think that slapping a constant 30% damage reduction on something was creative thinking then that's the last thing Bary and Kentro need

[placid bronze]

I didnt think cerato getting 30% damage reduction was creative thinking, i considered that pretty surface level to start with, simply by looking at its intended niche, and what it could do aside from that

[analog mirage]

Teno and Carnos attacks kick and charge are stronger than allos bite so power does not always tie with size

(At least I highly think they will)

[hollow canyon]

then why do surface level with Cerato to force the game to have to do creative thinking with Bary and Kentro afterwards?

How about... idk giving a creative idea for Cerato to begin with so that we avoid the whole problem in the first place?