balance-feedback-discussion

[golden coral]

We see that with deino, how is this... not obvious to you

[unborn iris]

Certain dinosaurs will be designed to be more successfull in certain biomes or terrain types, correct?

That is definitely a thing.

[golden coral]

Likely so, yes

But that's more so because they can handle the terrain better, not because they need the terrain to be viable

[unborn iris]

I feel like that's the same thing.

[golden coral]

Not quite, no. And needing terrain really only applies in the sense of aquatic/flying/terrestial since well, they kind of have an entire "terrain" if we can call it that, to themselves

But that's not quite the same thing either

But well, do you consider deino currently well balanced/designed then?

[unborn iris]

I'm not really interested in jumping into another rabbit hole. All I wanted to say was that raptor HAS to be balanced based off how easily it is to negate pounce. Whether you think it's bad design that it does or not, doesn't mean it shouldn't.

[golden coral]

Because from how it currently works, you have the following options. Drink in dangerous spots, and die due to RNG if a deino happens to be there that you can not counter. Or drink from only safe spots, entirely denying the deino the ability to hunt you at all, and force it to starve. Either the latter will happen, and deino will be unplayable because who would drink from a dangerous spot where they can die due to RNG if they don't have to. Or you have to force the players to drink at said spots at times, to cater to the deino so it gets to hunt at least some times.

Yes and you can make that same argument for deino, which is what I'm doing here

And if you balance omni based on that, it means it either shreds things that does not have terrain, or can't do anything because their targets are always in terrain

[unborn iris]

And I would agree 100% with that.

[golden coral]

Either option will force one side to be in a bad spot

If you always provide the neccesary terrain, then you've just made sure the omni/deino can't do anything. And if you force the prey to be in a vunerable spot, you now have forced the prey to die, not due to their own lack of skill or smarts, but because they don't have what they need to survive the fight.

You do see the issue here, right?

[unborn iris]

I'm not saying it isn't bad design. I'm not arguing that.

I'm arguing based off the design we have, how the matchups are.

[golden coral]

Right, so, basically, you're arguing we should just go along with how it is, while I'm arguing that we should look for a better solution and?

Cause I'm not sure where we actually disagree right now

But I tend to take discussions here for the purpose of "how do we fix things", since it is after all, feedback

[unborn iris]

I feel like the idea that the designs being changed for the better are pretty slim and would rather the low hanging fruit option of balancing based off what we have now.

[golden coral]

Which I guess, is why I'm not sure I quite understand your standpoint. Maybe I mistook you saying "this is how it is" with "I think it should be this way"

In which case I apologize

I get the idea, and I'd agree, if it wasn't this particular issue

Because I honestly do not see how you handle neither pounce nor lunge in a good way with how it is

I described the situation, especially for deino, even if it applies to both, and I do not see how to make it work out well

With how it is, no matter how you turn it, one side just gets to deal with things being unfair and unfun

[graceful swallow]

Omni pounce broken change my mind

[graceful swallow]

same with troo im guessing, and sometimes you just get off the pounce and get stuck in place to get hit rapidly

[distant torrent]

@alpine plover honestly that’s definitely a problem. it’s a shame its been unaddressed for a long while

[alpine plover]

yeah, i was playing teno and doing alright against raptors and ceras, only to get double bopped by carnos that i hit but still got got, big sad.

[distant torrent]

carnos scare me way more than ceras and omnis. omnis are handled from the messed up alt attacks, and ceras are fine as long as they don’t swarm you. carnos however.. that ram is a terror that can’t be stopped. it’s honestly so easy for 2 or so carnos to facetank a teno it’s not even funny. it’s just sad

ceras are squishy without their body buffs

[alpine plover]

indeed, I really hope something gets done in the future, I don't want carno to be useless. but i also don't want it to be omnipotent.

[distant torrent]

all they need to do is make it a crappy medium game hunter and make it better at hunting small game like it was intended to. first thing that needs to go is that ram, or it needs to be changed to where it can’t knock down something above half its weight

once its effectiveness against medium game is squashed, then its hunger can be buffed so it doesn’t starve so incredibly fast

[alpine plover]

I'm not sure what they could really do to make it less of a menace, as its defining feature is being fast, and if you remove that then you just have an overgrown raptor.

[distant torrent]

removing ram won’t change its current top speed. it just removes an ability that’s basically useless against small agile prey and very effective against bigger, slower targets

I also want it to do significantly more damage to playables half its weight and below, but do less damage to playables above that weight threshold (to help prevent face tanking). buffing its stam after that would help it a lot

[alpine plover]

Yes, I think weight should have a much bigger and more dynamic role than it currently does, more than a yes or no to grabs and rams.

I love playing Galli, and getting rammed and getting flung has gotta be the funniest thing.

[keen plover]

It should definitely not stun a Carno

[dusky surge]

ram needs to do less damage primarily

[alpine plover]

very

[keen plover]

Carno should definitely still stun Teno's & Ceratos. At most lower the threshold for knockdown and reduce the damage of charge

[dusky surge]

weight determines max health, bloodpool, what can and can't CC you, what you can and can't grab/pin/knockdown/stun

it plays a pretty vital role

[dusky surge]

agreed

[dusky surge]

carno will always seem OP because its stupid ram has so much ridiculous power that it overshadows its literal list of weaknesses, because the devs keep designing around the main problem with carno, rather than actually addressing it

[alpine plover]

I probably could have worded it better, What I was trying to get at is that the certain things pertaining to weight should change, such as what Carno's ram can and cannot knockdown/stun, and what Deino can and cannot grab. (Deino grabbing half its bodyweight seems absurd)

[graceful swallow]

messed up alt attacks from omnis? more like that alts are broken and freezes you in place half the time you alt attack

[dusky surge]

what

he means alt attacks literally hit omnis clinging onto you

[graceful swallow]

oh

I thought alts were grappling

[dusky surge]

what

what's grappling

who's grappling

[graceful swallow]

pouncing I guess?

[dusky surge]

oh, yea that's pounce

alt attacks are when you press alt+lmb

doing a directional attack

[graceful swallow]

Got it

[distant torrent]

those alt attacks are honestly nearly the only thing teno has right now against omnis lmao once those are fixed, bye-bye teno vs omni matchup where teno wins against more than one or two

[zenith comet]

Troodon hit box being smaller I 100% agree with

[unborn iris]

Raptor definitely needs miss pounce animation back.

Knowing this balance history, we'll end up with a 5 second miss pounce, though.

[rotund sage]

sup guys can anyone explain to me how come utahs have Deinos on their diet but carnos do not have ceras on their diet and not other carnos either this is a huge punishment to their diet variety or what do you fellas think ?

[slim dragon]

I think current diets are bad

[dusky surge]

because diets are terrible atm

omni, the bleeder animal, has two animals that have BLEED RESIST on its diet, but carno doesn't get cera because screw carno

[slim dragon]

@white crest Why would omni need a blood pool buff ?
Also wan't update 5.5 the update in which omni absolutely demolished everything in the roster ?

Yeah I just checked Omni was OP in 5.5

[white crest]

2 teno alt bites to my Omnis tail and I’m literally bleeding out but 7 tap pounced and the teno is still fine on bleed, how do you not see what’s wrong?

[golden coral]

I feel like that's one of those posts where a few things are good, most are bad, and I'm not sure how to react to it properly :p

[white crest]

Who’s videos did you check?

[slim dragon]

I do not see what's wrong
If you could kill a teno just with tap pounces, now something would be wrong

[slim dragon]

Not a video
Old messages from people on this discord

[white crest]

People were much less skilled back then, 5.5 was the most balanced the game ever was

[slim dragon]

Definitely not

I played every update so I know there were a few updates during which omni was OP, including a recent one
But I get the update numbers confused and I don't remember if it was update 5 or 5.5

[white crest]

Bucking is over effective so why shouldn’t tap pounce be a thing? I do agree they shouldn’t do too much bleed on the first tick but still

[slim dragon]

But tap pounce IS a thing
Just don't expect to be killing things over 3x your size using that alone

[white crest]

Then bucking should be less effective, 1 tick of buck literally takes half my stam so whatever I’m fighting can run me down and I’m dead

[slim dragon]

I'm pretty sure bucking has been nerfed quite a lot in 6.5 already

[golden coral]

Let's see. 5.5 balance was not good, and far from perfect. Omnis do need something on miss, honestly even troodons do, but it should be something like an extra stam cost, or at worst a slow down like carno accel requirement or something. Buffing blood pool makes no sense, buffing bleed resist, I can kind of see an argument for it, purely because an animal that does lots of bleed, would reasonably be resistant due to miror matches (but that would also require solving the pin issue of course). Omni is also really effective solo hunter, you can pin things, and they are pretty much dead.

Fixing bugs are a given, and performance is always worked on, from what I know. However, stego being able to snipe omnis makes perfect sense, it's one of the two/three animals that can and should be able to do so, from any angle at that even (poor trikes and maias and others), and teno isn't really that good at it, unless you time your tailslam very well (which is fair, teno really requires skill to use so there's that). I'm personally fine with the alt changes, though I do see the point of lacking stamina usage, a better option might be to let players attack while out of stam, but with reduced effectivness perhaps.

[slim dragon]

It's rather a problem of your stamina bar going down in chunks instead of smoothly

[white crest]

Still too much

That I agree it should go down smoothly

[golden coral]

I think it was both, honestly. But at least 5, though I don't recall 5.5 being that good, pachy stun lock!

[golden coral]

First off, bucking isn't that effective. Second, tap pouncing should go because it should be troodons thing to get on/off and "dogpile" the target in a sense, whereas omnis should require first wearing the target out so it can't buck, and then get off full pounces and watch it bleed to death.

[white crest]

Play omni and you’ll see 💀

[golden coral]

That is an issue, but bucking itself is still not really that much to talk about. When you got a pack, you got all the time in the world to just take turns and regain stamina with little to no issue.

[white crest]

But yes, holding a pounce should do more then tap pounce

[slim dragon]

That's how it works already

[golden coral]

Yes and no, it does do more, but it doesn't do much more to make it worth it, from what I've heard at least

You get sufficient effect even from a tap pounce

[white crest]

Yes technically tap pouncing is more stamina efficient per bleed

[dusky surge]

i honestly dont know what you want. you say "nerf omni" yet your post contains mostly large scale buffs

[white crest]

I do think missing a pounce should cost some extra stam, but trodon pounce seems fine to me (other then pounce bugs) cuz you gotta deal out a ton of them to kill your target

[white crest]

The main thing is miss pounce, it’s very broken

But I can’t be the only one to think the bleeder of evrima bleeds out faster then it’s targets right?

It seems goofy to me

[dusky surge]

also, yes, omni was overpowered in U5.5, ironically due to a massive reduction to pounce recovery time

which has been repeated yet again in U6.5 with its entire removal

[slim dragon]

Not when your target is more than 3x your size

[dusky surge]

(yet despite this, pachy maintains its recovery animation because apparently herbivores should be punished more for self-defense than carnivores are for wreckless aggression)

[white crest]

Good carnos back then were able to punish utahs for missing, it just wasn’t an utter death sentence like update 6

[golden coral]

I think it purely comes down to that you should always have some kind of punishment so you can't just miss and not care. Even troodon can do with that, especially since they don't "cost" much in their pounce anyway, due to not being meant to hang on at all (and even doing so cost them little from what I know). But it can be adjusted based on size of the playable of course.

[white crest]

I agree carnis should be punished more

[white crest]

Makes sense 👍

[white crest]

Yes but even still why do they do so much bleed then?

I thought Omni was supposed to be the bleeder

[golden coral]

It is

[slim dragon]

Have you ever took a look at teno's claws ?
They're all as big as omni's sickle claw

[golden coral]

Teno claws do a lot of bleed, probably because they're designed to handle smaller stuff that likes to run around

[slim dragon]

Proportionnally, omni does much, much more bleed

[golden coral]

Just like how kick is now designed to do lots of damage, while the tail is "just" CC

[slim dragon]

Actually the simple fact it can kill large things by bleeding them out show how insane the bleed on this thing is

[white crest]

And what about pounce? Omni has tons of claws and teeth ripping into the tenos flesh

[golden coral]

But I think maybe saying "omni is designed as bleeder" doesn't mean "do the most bleed", but rather that the mechanic/fighting style is oriented around it

If that makes sense to you lot

[white crest]

Yes but when I was fighting a teno in a pack the teno died when I was 11% blood, on multiple occasions 💀

[slim dragon]

For example giga will surely do more bleed than omni, just because it's bigger

[white crest]

Makes sense

[slim dragon]

But omni is still a very competent bleeder, especially for its size

[dusky surge]

stego does proportionally more bleed on account of its massive goddamn death tail

[slim dragon]

Your movement also affects how fast you bleed
If you kept running around while bleeding, no wonder it went so low

[white crest]

Yes, I’m just asking for it to have a bleed resist because it’s crazy how fast they bleed out from hits that shouldn’t even land

[dusky surge]

also omni doesn't... need bleed res. at all

nothing about omni would necessitate that

[slim dragon]

Balancing to account for bugs isn't a valid argument

[white crest]

Then staying still, if I get hit on the base tail as an Omni by a teno alt bite I’m bleeding out

[dusky surge]

i mean, bleed was buffed across the board in U6.5 as far as I recall

as a way to make bleed actually hurt bad

hence why now even a bite from a cera can be brutal

because the goal is to get you to not take constant fights

and also add more danger to combat

[white crest]

I guess but with the current bugs/desync that doesn’t really work

[golden coral]

Next time, let your teammate take the hit instead! :p But I would argue the reason there is so that the teno can defend itself against omnis running around it, which kick isn't really good for, and tail slam is, well you can knock em down, very shortly, but you're not killing them very effectively.

[dusky surge]

balancing around bugs is absurd

[white crest]

I can’t trust what’s on my screen because it can be up to 3 seconds behind what I’m seeing

That’s not okay..

[golden coral]

No, no it's not. We all want good performance, especially with how official servers seems to be behaving these days

[white crest]

That’s accounting for that too btw

[golden coral]

Fair. I do think it makes sense for claws to do bleed, because you're not oneshotting the omni, so you need another way to make it go away, especially if we do want less of "must kill or die" scenarios

[white crest]

I just want things to be fair, not perfectly balanced as that’s what the tiers are for but bleeding out from tip tail hits are extremely frustrating

[golden coral]

But yeah, did you test so you're sure it's only on the base of the tail? Cause it being from the tail tip makes no sense, does tail tip even do bleed?

[white crest]

No, but desync says so

Again what I see on my screen is different from what others see

If a teno tail slams my Omnis tip tail it’s a headshot on that tenos screen

[white crest]

I do wish for more of those but with ai being more rare then dryo mains it’s hard to play like that

[golden coral]

Maybe it's a plan to have us all go herbis by chasing the AI away :p

[white crest]

:0

[golden coral]

Also the lack of dryos is sad, would love to see more of those around

If we could trade two thirds of the average deino population for dryos, we'd never have to worry about AI ^^

[white crest]

Fr! I just wish they could burrow and I’d play it much more tbh

[white crest]

If only T-T

Now that I think of it maybe 5.5 miss pounce was too fast, but 6 was too long, maybe somewhere in between would be better?

I still have trauma from update 6 as an Omni main 🤣💀💀

[quick cargo]

I thought i was having memory issues thats explains why bleed kills me more than before when it wasent even worth looking at

[dusky surge]

yea, basically all bleed got buffed

[neon willow]

Not really... The things in Utah diet that you would reasonably hunt solo bleed pretty badly compared to Utah -- stuff like pachy, dryo, troo, other Utah, ptera. I'd argue big game more than 2x the Utahs size aren't balanced to be fought solo, and the bleed rates reflect that. You need a pack to bait and distract to get a successful teno kill. That seems right to me

[white crest]

That sounds reasonable, but the stuff that it can take down solo with bleed are things it can pin or easily brawl

I just wish skill was more of a factor, I love Omni but I don’t like being forced into a group sometimes, especially with all the cannis that have been around lately

[golden coral]

Well you can be fine on your own, there's just a limit on the things you can hunt at that point. Similar to how there is a limit to what you can defend against on your own, if for no other reason than sheer attrition (given enough omnis, you can throw yourself at even a deino, at least in theory)

[cobalt dagger]

Does anyone wanna talk about Pachy?
I was testing Pachy out in a 1 v 1 server with a friend today, and we concluded that if Carno just looks at the pachy and clicks continously, the pachy WILL die if it comes within range, doesn't matter if the pachy hits head shots, head fractures, broken legs... It can't come near without being bitten.

My guess is, if Pachy, your best bet is to try and break a carno's leg (inevitably taking damage in the process) and then try to run away when it's leg is broken...
I guess that's not the worst thing but it doesn't seem very punishing unless the carno has to worry about it's own enemies being near by.

Maybe that's not so bad though, I wouldn't want it to be slaughtering carnos. Breaking it's legs and running for it, I mean.

Actually now I think of it, carno starves really fast. Even if his leg is only broken for 5 minutes maybe that's still pretty punishing for him.

[golden coral]

Heh, was going to point out that a failed hunt can be harsh on the food drain, so it is a valid threat to a carno, but you figured that out on your own. As for the matchup, you can take a carno head on, you win the trade and inflict the carno with a broken head, which means any retalitatory hit does even less, especially if you can literally face tank that first hit and then tail tank the second (if there is one). I'd honestly argue you might want to go for counter charge and then circle around for a leg break before making a run for it. Or if you do get a body break instead of leg break, juke and run if you are able to.

[white crest]

I see your point, but I’d be able to kinda easily solo a teno if it weren’t for the desync so I don’t know anymore ;-;

[golden coral]

Sounds concerning in it's own way, I'm not sure omni should be able to solo a teno, much less easily.

[thick scroll]

It should be able cuz u need to have god-like skills to do which is very very rare, so no worries about every omniplayer can do that 😉

[unborn iris]

I wish I could just 1v1 everyone that makes blanket statements like that. I guarantee you're not soloing my teno as a raptor even on 1ms ping. And I'm not even that good at teno.

[golden coral]

More like most teno players are really bad, so it happens, but if the teno is good, even two or three omnis should stand little to no chance, even if they're also good.

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah... I mean, if Teno takes as long as Cera or Carno to grow to adult, I'd like to see it's power match their's. Which, I think, in a sense it kinda does- A GOOD teno is very very hard for carno or cera to hunt, if not killing them in the process, while a BAD teno is very easy to hunt. The skill on teno makes all the difference, but also sometimes numbers.... Once numbers get involved, sometimes they can just face tank your tail and get kicked and die, but if there's enough of them face tanking your tail you may die too.

But, well, basically, I think given that teno takes longer to grow than omni, it would seem balanced to me for omni to have a hard time to solo'ing teno, as carno and cera are already also supposed to have a 'challenge' soloing it- Or at least I think they should, and currently they do if the teno is good which I think is good, but I see so many comments asking for herbivores to be weaker and huntable and previous updates seem to have weakened them further, that I am concerned it will follow that pattern and they may continue to be nerfed.

[graceful swallow]

What would be the point of getting 100% growth on a perfect diet if your already fully grown? Something else could happen in place of that for sure as that's just like a visual change. Not hating just don't make sense to me. Would visually be appealing but would change nothing. @cobalt elk

[stark knoll]

That's what they said

The suggestion is "make the perfect diet give something other than a growth bonus when you're fully grown"

[graceful swallow]

Oh sweet then, just woke up lmao

[dense breach]

any opinions on dynos?

[slim dragon]

They're extynct

[graceful swallow]

Factual opinion

[dense breach]

I agree

[unborn iris]

You can chase down another Utah by pouncing after it. You gain speed by pouncing. 😂

[surreal saffron]

Does anyone else feel troodon is the only carnivore in a rough spot atm? All the others seem pretty good.

[dusky surge]

i'd argue carno is in a much worse spot, and i main troodon atm

[cobalt elk]

I think you misunderstood my post, im saying that you should get another buff if your 100% grown with the perfect 3 diet. So you have the normal 50% growth and then becouse you are 100% grown you also get every other buff in the game at like 5 or 10%. I hope this makes sense.

[graceful swallow]

Sounds good to me yeah I misunderstood

[cobalt elk]

I think this would be good in making people move around and chase the perfect 3 diet, also reward people going to that length.

[dense breach]

I do agree, growing a carno to adulthood is way harder and doesn't feel like it's worth it when a juvi deino can still easily kill you

[dusky surge]

my problem with it is that it's kinda just a failure

it's a terrible small game hunter

its a terrible plains predator

[dense breach]

reason why most people will prefer playing ceras or something similar, which causes big packs that make it even harder for carnos to get any food

and water is even worse, a server infested with deinos will dehydrate you 90% of the time

[solid imp]

i disagree with carno being hard to grow, a good player has a good chance at winning a fight against anything but a pack of raptors, and there r plenty of safe drinking spots atm from deinos of all sizes

and since they r hella speedy, they can easily escape sticky situations most of the time

[cosmic pelican]

Too bad half the server is usually omnis

[solid imp]

true that

i 100% agree with troodons being in a bad spot tho

[cosmic pelican]

Solo carno is just suffering, you die to the first omni pack that sees you

[solid imp]

i usually stay around south so i dont run into many

[thin mantle]

Troodon is in a bad spot?

[solid imp]

but i do have fun with knocking them off trees

[cosmic pelican]

I believe troodon will be decent on a good map, and as the roster expands it will get better matchups

[thin mantle]

It doesn't have any bad matchups beside omni and galli tbf

[solid imp]

i feel like of all the dinos available, troodon is affected by ping the most

bc of the nightmare with pouncing

[cosmic pelican]

I basically never hear more than 1 troodon ler server sadly :/
Also omni is just better in every way possible

[thin mantle]

Balance wise it's basically fine tho

[thin mantle]

Aside from being larger

Which isn't necessarily a benefit

[cosmic pelican]

I guess, but people look at fighting capability, which omni is waay better at

[thin mantle]

Oh well that's just a flawed perspective

Because first and foremost it's a survival game

[cosmic pelican]

It is, but fighting game :p

[solid imp]

but what else do u do in the game beside fight

[cosmic pelican]

This is a joke please dont eat me

[thin mantle]

A game that's working towards an endgoal shouldn't compromise that endgoal to provide an overinvestment in one system of the completed experience

The game is being developed, it's not in live service

[solid imp]

thats why i said troodons in a bad spot atm

[thin mantle]

So there being a lack of things to do but fight doesn't make fighting the only consideration

Well....again it's still not

It's doing exactly what it should be

And it's VERY survivable

It's kinda like saying galli is in a poor spot because it gets beat in a 1v1 by most of the roster, like omni decimates it, pachy decimates it...and troodons aren't even that bad against it despite galli probably being the scariest thing for them to encounter

I mean not against average players cuz most people don't know what to do against a galli

But like...performance wise they are hard carried by them being fast

Which is totally fine for it

[solid imp]

ah whatever ill argue

[dusky surge]

troodon being bad isn't something i agree with, tbh, it's quite good imho, i much prefer playing it to omni atm

[thin mantle]

Like troodons biggest issue is it's player count

[solid imp]

troodons are surivable if you survive off of newborns but fighting anything else its dead with one timed alt-bite or one glitched pounce

[thin mantle]

Oh ok so it's only issues is server performance basically

That effects every playable tbh

[solid imp]

that was part of my argument

[dusky surge]

not a balance issue

and it's a known bug

[thin mantle]

Yeah it's not a problem with the playable

[solid imp]

yeah ik

[thin mantle]

So troodon wouldn't be in a bad spot, the game is in a bad spot

[solid imp]

but theres also a reason why there are so many omnis in every server rather than troodons

[thin mantle]

Right cuz omni is literally overpowered rn

Like teno is....literally free food to it rn

[solid imp]

fr

[thin mantle]

Pachy got giga nerfed with the no alt when sprinting change

Cuz it has a hard time engaging it

[solid imp]

the same loop goes on every time with the updates in this game, the species that were overnerfed are overbuffed and the species that were overbuffed r overnerfed

[thin mantle]

Also omni pounce has like....never been so accessible

[thin mantle]

Tbf it's been fluctuating between hilariously OP, to the best it's ever been balanced, back to OP

It hasn't been "underpowered" since pounce was consistently awfully performing

[solid imp]

well at least that means every dino has been fun at ONE point

[thin mantle]

Typically all dinos on release are busted

I don't really consider that more fun but most do

so yeah

[distant torrent]

it’s just so sad the only thing carrying teno in teno vs omni matchups is that alt…

[thin mantle]

If they didn't have their alt attack they'd just die

There's genuinely no point trying to stun them

They won't get hit unless they're comically dumb

Also pounce disables slam anyway xD

[distant torrent]

really? I never knew that because I don’t think I’ve ever tried slamming while pounced

that’s honestly just so… sad it’s not even funny lmao

once alt attacks are fixed, tenos might as well just lay down and accept death when they encounter just one single competent omni

[thin mantle]

Yeah pounce disables slam, as well as disabling it about a second after dismount

It’s clunky af

[keen plover]

Yeah it's lame

[dusky surge]

god i love watching tenonto consistently get beaten to death with a large rock every update

[keen plover]

Also takes stamina

Literally can't catch a raptor if they're good

[dusky surge]

there was one time where tenonto was like, genuinely good, I believe it was U4.5 where it was widely respected

[keen plover]

I think update 5 Teno was even better. They reduced the stamina cost on the tail slam

[dusky surge]

oh yea

god i miss tenonto back when that was a thing

[keen plover]

In terms of meta placement, it was the best dino after Omni in 5

[dusky surge]

i really enjoyed it being a decent brawler herbivore

[keen plover]

It needs the directional tail slam to contest against current raptor

Since from what we know, they're not really going to change Omni much.

[dusky surge]

honestly, there's a few ways to go with it now

A: Respec it ENTIRELY for a more specialist playstyle over generalist, having it be a shallows wader or what have you, let Diablo take the role of its brawler playstyle
B: Buff it and allow it to continue being a generalist

[keen plover]

I think a generalist for the psuedo mid tier is good

[dusky surge]

I agree

I also believe it could make for a good shallows wader, personally, since on Spiro, any shallow water can literally let tenos 2v1 ceras and win with comfortable ease

It's nuts in shallows tbh

If Gateway has dedicated shallows, teno can probably easily rule them

[keen plover]

Shallow waters right now are pretty lame. Carno runs through it effortlessly, while Teno / Cera struggle

Since it's based around height right? Taller you are, the easier it is to move through them?

[dusky surge]

I think its based on a height thing

Which, yea, it shouldn't be. A sucho may be shorter than a rex, but it should still wade faster

[keen plover]

Cera / teno should do it better than Carno

Should be Teno > Cera > Carno

[dusky surge]

Issue is also different animals define "shallows" as different things

Since, y'know, what's shallow for a rex is a lengthy swim for a Troodon

[keen plover]

True

But for example, you know the area by south. The split rock thing?

[dusky surge]

yea, that's what i use as teno

[keen plover]

Yeah, Cera trots there

Carno runs

[dusky surge]

helps me immediately remove ceras and omnis from my life

[keen plover]

Which imo, shouldn't be the case. It feels lame that Cera can't run through it. It's not even deep for it lol

[keen plover]

Yeah great area to counter them

[dusky surge]

because teno's trot compensates for the shallow water very well

[keen plover]

How would wading work though.

If Sucho is the best wader, does it keep 100% of its max speed

As a general system

[dusky surge]

i honestly dont know

[keen plover]

Fair.

Cause right now, Carno would probably be the best wader in game

[thin mantle]

It’s extra funny considering it’s like…the easiest animal in the game to “overtune” without concequences, it’s so hard to make teno a problem

But it’s pretty consistently garbage, only really held up by its skill ceiling enabling good players to use the shambles left behind

[keen plover]

A lot of the responses against buffing the herbi's come from them then being stronger in herds / they don't like players running around kosing.

But honestly, I never found that to be a problem as a carnivore. if anything, the amount of carnivores that are overtuned are completely worse for the game.

[thin mantle]

Mhm, especially since carnivores are buy and large designed better for instigation, whereas herbis are buy and large optimized for prevention avoidance and defense…most of the time

[dusky surge]

i also think it's way more fun outcompeting and killing a powerful enemy to just steamrolling a helpless opponent

[thin mantle]

Even the smaller aggro herbs like Pachy are still slower than most of the game

[dusky surge]

like... the fun of the hunt is the challenge of it

[thin mantle]

Or landing one decisive blow on something around your size or larger and just watching it fall over

Not enough effort tbh

Creatures in this game should generally be hard to kill

When played optimally

[dusky surge]

not like, PoT hard, where everything tanks 5000 damage, but like, difficult

[keen plover]

Thing is, Carno has ALWAYS been able to run away from a teno after one failed attack. Players just keep on going then complain. Even if they ambush you, you'll be able to avoid them

[dusky surge]

i want carno's damage on charge nerfed so bad, it's just... unimaginably lame

[keen plover]

Omni, yeah, you messed up and die, but that's your own fault

[keen plover]

Pachy has been a non issue ever since it's dealt no stuns to larger things in my eyes. Well I do hate how it beats Carno in the trade via charge, but I wouldn't change it without buffing it in other areas

[dusky surge]

like, the knockdown allows for follow-ups, you don't also need it to do enough damage to literally one-tap an omni on a headshot

that's why the knockdown is there in the first place, it exists to help you land a bite and add more damage

[thin mantle]

Well yeah I’d prefer more utilitarian defense options. Like teno being being agile enough to sidestep quite a lot or being able to attack with a counter. I wouldn’t mind a degree of tankiness tho. One of my greatest woes with pot is that it makes a lot of good systems it implements poorly look bad. Like yes animals are too tanky in pot but I feel like that’s more of a concequences of damage dealt having like….no effects besides killing the target.
Bleed in POT is pathetic, BB is as well unless it’s on a few certain animals, at which point their attacks are actually too strong

Evrima had the luxury of easily being able to middle ground those mechanics so they’re not busted or too weak because of how those systems engage with player mobility

[dusky surge]

its incredible how carno, despite all the nerfs, is now both the strongest and weakest animal in the game

[thin mantle]

Yeah Carno will continue to never make sense

[dusky surge]

like carno is both unimaginably dominant while still being complete garbage

[thin mantle]

I’ve all but accepted it’ll always be a contradiction to itself

[dusky surge]

because they have nerfed it in every way besides the ways that matter

[keen plover]

Yeah. As a solo player it sucks, but when 2 or more carnos show up, the server dies. Truly a good playable

Idk what is worse. The knockdown or the damage

[dusky surge]

both in tandem

the knockdown is fine, but with 350 damage

not so fine

cerato's charge bite is actually a "high damage punch up tool" done infinitely better

• no stupid stun mechanics
• very well telegraphed
• doesn't auto-hit, requires you to actually time it

carno's charge would be fine if it had any form of utility beyond being a horrid ambush move

but it doesn't. It's a 100% committal move that means you have to basically all-in on whatever fight you're currently in

because you just sacrificed any stam to retreat

carno's speed should be its most valuable asset, both in engagement and disengagement, but it literally is hard-capped by the fact that it is granted a small allowance of stamina and is instantly punished if it chooses to abuse that

[keen plover]

Yeah. I felt that. I remember using charge twice ages ago, had like half stamina after a fight and was run down by ceras

[dusky surge]

in fact, carno is the ONLY EVRIMA animal I will argue was done better in legacy, much to my own dismay

it was better designed for plains hunting, endurance hunting, was still evadable using forests and agility, terrible at ambushing, actually relied on hit and run tactics over just nuking things

did it have flaws? Absolutely

but I'd still argue it's a better done carno than EVRIMA carno

every other animal feels like an upgrade from their legacy version, but I simply can't say the same for carno

[thin mantle]

I’d actually disagree on omnis regard

It not being able to chew ankles of sauropods till they died is quite nice

In every other regard tho…..nah

[keen plover]

Tbf

[thin mantle]

I know I know alt turn

[keen plover]

heh

[thin mantle]

Gigacapter moment

[keen plover]

It was a joke playable on officials imo

[thin mantle]

But without alt turn Utah was the strongest animal in the game

[thin mantle]

The duality of Utah

[keen plover]

I remember going into port as a solo allo against 10+ raptors

They couldn't do a thing

[dusky surge]

i prefer modern omni infinitely more because it isn't entirely reliant on botched controls

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/lotr-gandalf-gandalf-the-grey-saruman-spinning-gif-4967369

Legacy balance

[keen plover]

I know a lot of people won't like it, but I much prefer earlier evrima movement Carno that has a usable ram like rn, but can't spam it.

Mainly because I play solo.

[thin mantle]

Same

But a lot of playables were very different back then to permit that as well

Mainly teno

[keen plover]

It had the tools to hunt whatever it wanted solo.

Update 2 teno was garbage, but 3 was when it started to shine

[thin mantle]

3 teno was both my favorite version of teno and a total meme

Like it was very strong

[keen plover]

Wasn't that the patch where it ran carno's down

[thin mantle]

But still wasn’t that strong

[keen plover]

Like endurance hunted them

Or was that 3.5

[thin mantle]

To an extent yeah

Nah that was 3, tho at the same time the Carno could just take the teno down

The only time endurance hunts really took place was during numbers advantages

Cuz carnos stam was still pretty good

It wasn’t good, certainly better

[keen plover]

funny times

If only you got 3.75 working

[thin mantle]

Bird don’t bring up my trauma like that

I tried ok…steam no likey

[keen plover]

try again 🙂

[thin mantle]

I will

[dusky surge]

man i just want carno to be decent

i honestly reckon it wont be until we get stuff like allo tbh

because allo provides a consistent threat to carno and actually does the ambusher thing better, meaning carno will need to actually be allowed to flee one

[keen plover]

So like sometime next year which is likely for Allo

Just needs a change for Gateway

And hopefully all the current dinos are complete soon

[fallow blaze]

that would be wonderful.
I would say that all of the older current dinosaurs were finished at some point.
Because of player feedback: quantitative or qualitative, they were changed again and again.
up to this point.

the game isn't finished yet, so we'll see balance changes all the time.
I hope that it will be done after the public branch.

[keen plover]

were finished? Not too sure what you mean.

Stego, Omni, Dryo, Hypsi & Deino are technically incomplete

Not sure what they have planned for teno & Carno as well

[dusky surge]

carno def feels incomplete, like its kit is missing something

i'd argue the alt-bite feels very out of place on it, if anything

[fallow blaze]

utah/omni and pachy are the best examples I can think of right now.

the two were once in a state where they were not OP, but were still able to defend themselves.

the utah/ombi was at some point bug free:

• pounce worked
• bleed wasn't too high
• Stamina drain was reasonable
  = but then he couldn't use his pounce for three updates (in the past).

pachy

• His stamina was reduced once
• because of this he could not always win alone, because his stun consumed a lot of stamina
• nevertheless one has thought about it = I attack the pachy or not
  = today he is a glass cannon (according to other players)

I don't think there was any other dinosaur that was edited as much as these two.

[fallow blaze]

Agree

[fallow blaze]

what do you think about not being able to use alt+attack while running?

[dusky surge]

i think it's fine

i feel that it did hit herbis harder tho, especially pachy

and given the significant nerfs pachy already received, that was pretty brutal

i actually have more of a problem with alt-attacks not costing stam, since they are now an easy spam option

[fallow blaze]

yes agree with you
I also like that you can't use them while running. because that way the "chasing" is stopped a bit.

that they don't cost stamina also feels wrong.

pachy is poorly off. that's why it's hardly ever played anymore.

[dusky surge]

i mean, pachy is literally hard countered by cera

and has a very tough time dealing with carno

which is why it's so underplayed

[keen plover]

I'd argue the Omni matchup is kind of bad. Mainly because you can only pressure them with one attack

Also there's a delay in attacks

[dusky surge]

partially why i want pachy to have more speed

its literally like, 5km/hr slower than an omniraptor

which clocks in at around 46.8

[keen plover]

Yeah, but imo the running alt was a good tool for it

Also on the delay, it can't attack after knocking something down. Even the bite has a second delay as well. So they just get up and run

[dusky surge]

honestly, i want the coconut cracker attack to do like, 200-300 damage. It's slow, extremely limited range and never used in combat. Having it combo with knockdowns would make it BRUTAL, in the right way

[keen plover]

That would be nice

[dusky surge]

it also looks like it should be pachy's most damaging attack

its literally sandwiching animals between a rock and a hard place

[keen plover]

Yeah it makes sense visually. Kind of weird after a lot of suggestions its left to just be a tool to open food lol

[dusky surge]

yea. I do want pachy to legitimately be a terror to smalls

Like, I don't care if dilo ends up bigger than it, pachy should absolutely DESTROY dilo in a 1 on 1 engagement

[keen plover]

I mean, if it can't confidently apply venom, it kind of deserves for its legs to crumble

[dusky surge]

i just want dilo to see pachy and avoid pachy lol

[fallow blaze]

Totaly agree

[dusky surge]

@shadow dome i think they need to add stam damage proportional to the weight of the animal compared to your deino

so the max weight you can carry (4 tons) will burn through your stam very fast

[dusky surge]

@alpine plover it has a weight limit of anything above 4 tons already, but a carno is merely 1.8, a deino should easily be able to carry it

a sucho, no, an allo, sure

a sucho is like, 2x larger than an allo, they're not very much alike in terms of weight

[cosmic pelican]

Those 2 have some massive size differemce

[dusky surge]

in the isle, yea they are

Legacy had a problem with overweighing smalls and underweighing larger animals because of how weight worked back then

If something was accurate weight, it'd either be invincible or garbage

omni was literally 1 ton back then, cera was over 2 tons

In The Isle, it's more than likely sucho will be 4+ tons, whereas allo will be something like 2-3 tons

Sucho shouldn't be interacting much with deino at all imho

[cosmic pelican]

Sucho ideally should never interact with deino tbh

But if it does meet a deino it should give it a good beating in shallow water/land

[dusky surge]

I mean, I don't like that definition personally because I'd like the two to actually be different lol

[slim dragon]

mr. sucho (no sail niche)

[dusky surge]

that's cherius

[slim dragon]

It's concept art
The way bary vs deino will probably go is that either bary will be able to escape deino, or deino will eat bary

[dusky surge]

still hate that part of the concept art

i've gone into depth as to why a lunge counter is absolutely horrible for the animal

and sets a terrible precedent going forward

[slim dragon]

Imagine taking the biggest spinosaurid, tripling its size, giving it huge arms and legs and turning it into a monster just for it to eat fish in the end

[dusky surge]

but last time I did, the person I was talking to literally stopped talking about it entirely

[slim dragon]

Was it the "buck that deals 3000 damage to deino once you've been grabbed" ?

[dusky surge]

yes

[slim dragon]

I don't remember their usenrame, you can probably find the conversation by searching old messages in general feedback discussion

[dusky surge]

i'd say it doesn't need to counter deino at all, you just need to make sure it has the following

• Superior aquatic agility
• MUCH better land mobility (agility and speed)
• good vision underwater
• (ideally) water sense, as spinosaurids were recorded to have similar traits to crocodilians in this regard
• a high oxygen count, making it difficult to drown
• decent stamina both in and out of water

and done, it's ready for deino

[slim dragon]

the only bigger semi-aquatics are deino, sucho, spino and cheirus
So no

you won't kill crocs with bary
Juvies maybe

[dusky surge]

amusingly, there doesn't exist a single "aquatic mid-tier"

it jumps straight from bary to sucho, skipping the mid-tier (another reason why I personally think mid-tier is the most boring in the game)

[slim dragon]

The roster is really distributed in a weird way
Only 2 fliers, only 2 arboreal animals...
And a LOT of giant predatory theropods

[dusky surge]

given that bary will likely rely a lot on bleed, yea, nah, deino will kick its ass

(i'd hope so, anyway, the concept of bary just easily dealing with deinos is disgusting to me)

bary is literally the only animal in the game deino actually can both interact with frequently and isn't so big it kicks its ass, or so small it doesn't matter much at all to it

also I swear this EasyAL guy hates my guts and IDK why

i hope he doesn't get one

i hope the bary dodge is literally "inputting directions to move away from the deino"

no automatic or special unique thing

it REALLY doesn't need that though

it doesn't need a stun, at all

because that immediately messes with consistent rules

it means that for a deino, bary is treated as if it were 4+ tons

you also need to consider, y'know, not every bary is fullgrown, and not every deino is fullgrown. Questions like "what if a adult deino lunges an juvi bary?". If the answer is "it doesn't stun", what about a juvi deino lunging a juvi bary? Is it weight based?

It causes a lot of questions for this hyperspecific interaction

The pachy/carno ram interaction shares this problem. A juvi pachy can literally stop a charging adult carno in its tracks because of one specific interaction

[dusky surge]

@west sierra troodon has venom at 65% grown

[west sierra]

Oh, interesting. I did not know that thank you!

[hollow canyon]

so many that it's all of... three

the roster in this game is really weirdly distributed but that has more to do with loads of useless garbage in the small tier - the things that will barely ever see any play and will appear like a unicorn in the wild on any server

also 2 fliers is 2 fliers too many

idk what you mean regarding the arboreal animals, Omni has been shown climbing too, so was young Megalania, there could be far more eventually, I think you're forgetting the fact that like half of the roster is too big for trees to withstand their weight

[golden coral]

@tender nebula Deino isn't designed to function like that in the game currently. It's a punch down predator that one shots everything 4T or less via lunge and drowning. That's the playstyle it has, and how it's balanced.

[dusky surge]

its incredible how deino can be the strongest animal in the game and people still want it stronger

literal water rex

[tender nebula]

for what deino could be i dont think it fits lol

hatcheri weigh 12 tons lol

strongest carnivore change my mind

[dusky surge]

it is the strongest carnivore, yes, it should be nerfed lol

[tender nebula]

if only they changed deino to hatcheri

who would want to fight an croc anyway it just stupid to me for stego to beat deinos

[dusky surge]

if stegos can't beat deinos, who does

[frail bobcat]

Hypsi

[tender nebula]

yes

[dusky surge]

make hypsi instakill deino

i can get behind that

[golden coral]

Should downsize deino if anything

[dusky surge]

i'd be happy to see more hypsis and less deinos

[golden coral]

Would make more sense, and be better for the game overall

[frail bobcat]

and give hypsi a aimbot for deino eyes

[tender nebula]

dryo solo

[frail bobcat]

ok, lets not buff deino

[tender nebula]

i agree they should buff deino

[frail bobcat]

because you have one matchup not completely in your favor?

[tender nebula]

no deino just doesnt make sense i dont like deino its boring af but like come on

[frail bobcat]

so making it even more op would fix it?

[tender nebula]

no just add bone break

i would be happy if atleast it had that

[frail bobcat]

I sure do love the 8 ton instadeleting creature that can make itself basically invisible, resource camp creatures and bone break them so they cant escape

chefs kiss, peak balance

[dusky surge]

again

water rex

[tender nebula]

yah but it gets destroyed by stego and by seeing that i bet deino is gonna die to sucho or acro

[frail bobcat]

good

[dusky surge]

how do you jump to that conclusion lol

[tender nebula]

bad

[dusky surge]

stego has like, one of the highest damage attacks in the game

it can also just dive underwater to deal with literally every one of those animals

[frail bobcat]

also no, the only reason stego is good against it is because of what mr. whatever he is at the moment said

[dusky surge]

thank u

[tender nebula]

dein should grab stego then i call it balanced

[dusky surge]

that's entirely unbalanced

[frail bobcat]

let me grow for 5 hours

oh I just got instadeleted because I needed water

balance

[dusky surge]

deino isn't allowed to have any risks lol

[tender nebula]

lmao ok deino should not grab stego it should have bone break and one shot it instead

[frail bobcat]

thats the same thing but worse

let me grow for 5 hours

oh, I just got instadeleted because I need water

balance

[dusky surge]

i mean, this guy is so obviously trolling rn, so I'mma head to bed and see how this unfolds in the morning lol

[tender nebula]

well i am but deino still needs a buff

[frail bobcat]

no

[dusky surge]

nah mate

it's more than strong enough as is

[tender nebula]

it does

[dusky surge]

anyway have fun arguing for the strongest animal to be stronger for some bizarre-ass reason

[tender nebula]

ok so stego has one of the strongest attacks in the game?

[dusky surge]

deino has a stronger one

[tender nebula]

oh

didnt know that

whoops

[hollow canyon]

it's not hatcheri in the game

[golden coral]

@tender nebulaDeino dying to acro is fine, btw

Deino needs more things it can't just oneshot, not less xD

[tender nebula]

nah dawg

deino can grab acro no?

[frail bobcat]

it cant

[tender nebula]

how much does acro weigh

[frail bobcat]

more than 4 tons

[hollow canyon]

depends on what specimen you use

of both really

the largest Acro is 5.4 or 5.7 or 5.8 or 6.1t

[tender nebula]

so deino gets destroyed by acro?

[hollow canyon]

oh there was also a 7t estimate but I think it was too high

the deino in the game should have a very tough time against it

[tender nebula]

what about in small rivers

[hollow canyon]

it's nothing like TMM 43632-1 or even CM 963

[hollow canyon]

depends on how small

if so small that Acro walks in them it should be about equal

[golden coral]

Hopefully not. Deino should stay a mid tier/small tier hunter, better for the game and for balance

[hollow canyon]

if Acro has to swim it will die by the virtue of not having that much hp

unless the river is arrow

or Deino is incompetent

which most of them very much are

[graceful swallow]

I hate hypsis they are annoying and I go outta my way to try and kill them lmao

[tender nebula]

i mean sucho my fav dino for evrima but like didnt deino hunt edmontos and rexes

[hollow canyon]

no, it didn't

Deinosuchus was extinct by the time those were running around

they had some other croc around at that time but a much smaller one

[tender nebula]

puru is bigger than deino?

[hollow canyon]

the described ones - no

[golden coral]

Even if it did, which it apparently did not, it would be better for the game and balance if it didnt, that's my point here

[hollow canyon]

there's a gigantic undescribed specimen though

[golden coral]

So irl only goes so far, having deino hunt the way it does and letting it kill too large things aren't going to be fun

[hollow canyon]

very similar in size to the biggest Deinosuchus

either way in game Deinosuchus isn't D. hatcheri so it's a pointless conversation

the species it is isn't the biggest croc ever, only like 3rd or 4th

[tender nebula]

good to know i guess i really overestimated deino

[hollow canyon]

nope

you simply have the wrong species in mind

they've changed the species in the game to hatcheri last minutes

this is NOT D. hatcheri though

it doesn't look like it

[tender nebula]

oh ok

[hollow canyon]

the model is based vaguely on an alligator and D. rugosus

mainly old portrayals of it

[tender nebula]

since you know alot of these species thingies which species of spino gonna be added aegyptiacus?

[stark knoll]

Spinosaurus islensis aka it's completely fictionalized

[hollow canyon]

Spino is a mess, it doesn't matter which species gets added because it isn't certain which species MSNMv 4047 belongs to

and what Superlunary said

TI Spino is nonsense kaijuu, it's not even remotely accurate to S.aegyptiacus

[slim dragon]

I say the name Spinovenator fits it

[hollow canyon]

this is more or less what the largest Spinosaurus specimen would've looked like

it would get thrashed and brutally murdered by the other big animals

[slim dragon]

I'm not sure irl spino could beat isle cera...

[hollow canyon]

without any able of defending itself

[hollow canyon]

it could because it's so big that Cerato would effectively be in the range of its claws

and the difference in mass is so staggering that Spino would kill it with its sheer bulk

[slim dragon]

Yeah but Isle cerato
The dinosaur that can survive a stego's thagomizer in the head

[hollow canyon]

meh?

and not really?

unless there's bodies all around it it dies

unless it's bugged or something

[slim dragon]

It needs one body

[hollow canyon]

how big?

[slim dragon]

The rules are still unclear, but one sufficiently big body can give it the full 50% resistance buff

[dusky surge]

as long as it isn't a dryo, it gives like, 50%

[hollow canyon]

no

[slim dragon]

I've heard different things
Apparently starting at cerato's own size or bigger it gets the full buff

[hollow canyon]

the biggest body, that of Deinosuchus gives it 43% max

well we've heard different things then

[slim dragon]

(Well 43% is enough to survive a stego's thag)

[hollow canyon]

it's w/e either way that's situational

and wouldn't help it

[dusky surge]

because it gives 50% across the board

[hollow canyon]

doesn't matter, that'd be one specific body

[slim dragon]

But I think we're getting offtopic here
Less cera talk, more deinorex

[dusky surge]

you get the same buff from a deino to like, an omni

its stupid

[hollow canyon]

since when?

[dusky surge]

always basically

[hollow canyon]

and who came up with that?

[hollow canyon]

not true

[dusky surge]

there was an 80% number thrown around, but that's never been true

[hollow canyon]

update when it came out it didn't work like that

[hollow canyon]

not true just like all the bodies giving the same buff since always

that was not a thing on the first update

when Cerato came out

either way

[dusky surge]

i mean... i stress tested it.

pretty sure the only exception was super small dryo sized bodies, but otherwise, 50% basically universally

[hollow canyon]

irrelevant to this discussion

[hollow canyon]

well... then the stress testers who stress tested it too stress tested it differently because they said other things

not that I care

it could give 100% resistance for all I care rn

not that this speaks well about whoever decided on that

[graceful swallow]

in water cera would perish brutaally, but thats my opinion

even like ankle water

[distant torrent]

@alpine plover carno can already easily solo a cera by just standing still and facetanking it. buffing carno to be more powerful would create an issue with it vs other playables

the best course of action imo would be to nerf instead of buff things. for example, the supposed scavenger (cera) does not need all of that stam it currently has that doesn’t even get used via alt bites or charged bites. instead of buffing carno stam significantly, just nerf cera stam since it’s an issue for everything. ceras can outstam pachys and tenos with ease, so it’s not just carnos affected on that matter

[rose quiver]

#balance-feedback message even bot didnt approve

[frail bobcat]

the bot is not present in #balance-feedback

[narrow lodge]

Tldr: The one suggesting buffing Carno has skill issue

[neon willow]

@tender nebula Deino doesn't need buffs, solely because out of a current roster of 12-15 dinos, it can 1-shot 13/15 with a full stam bar via lunge. 1/2 remaining matchups it can 1 vs 2 with relative ease, and 1v1 it can just opt out of via swimming. The only matchup it can't get away from or easily win is deino vs deino. That's pretty easily a top tier build; it doesn't need stronger bite force. Bite force in game is literally number of HP that the bite attack removes, and HP is literally the number of kg the animal weighs. Trust me, you do not want deino to one shot everything less than 23 tons

Deino also doesn't need bone break because it has a grapple that can prevent anything under 4 tons from moving, or countering, or attacking back. It's super powerful and it would be a downgrade to implement bone break

This is a case where game balance > realism

[dusky surge]

@uncut trellis and this is why I'm scared for stego lol

Rex is not a slouch with its speed

[keen plover]

It's 100% in the 30km/h range

[dusky surge]

yep

[keen plover]

Stego doesn't have a chance

Well, if it's the way people want Rex to deal with it

That trot, speed and size

[dusky surge]

people will legit still brush it off as "it's stego, it deserves to die because it's been so unkillable"

while deino remains unpunished for the exact same thing but worse

or "herd up"

as the 6 ton, 5 hour grow with a tail that more than often hits your own friends

the thing is with the only other herding, similar sized herbi that is para is that para has speed

[distant torrent]

looks like the power fantasy of rex players will be fulfilled

[dusky surge]

i mean, we all knew it was going to happen lol

[distant torrent]

I had hope

[dusky surge]

i mean, rex is meant to be strong, i'm not particularly upset that it is

i'm just upset that stego is screwed

[distant torrent]

didn’t the roadmap mention a stego kit change?

[halcyon elk]

Apparently it's supposed to get a buff to deal with them. And also be moved to unofficial

[dusky surge]

yea, ideally to, y'know, not die to apexes

[halcyon elk]

Yes it's planned for stage two

[distant torrent]

I honestly hope the addition of more powerful playables doesn’t outright make the populations of smaller playables just wither away

[halcyon elk]

It likely won't. As the larger you get. The more difficult growth will be.

And sustaining said growth

[dusky surge]

okay, according to some botched-ass math i just did using reference from Amarok streams, Rex appears to be moving at around 38km/hr, give or take

[halcyon elk]

Likely rex. giga. acro and a few others. When growing its gonna be a living hell

[halcyon elk]

About 23 mph. Not bad for one around stan size.

[distant torrent]

I hope. it’ll be severely sad if it does

[keen plover]

Yeah, since devs use cm/s

[dusky surge]

Given that an AI carno's speed was listed at around 1543.77 at full speed, and a rex at 1061, doing math would conclude that 38km/hr seems to be correct

[keen plover]

Hasn't been balanced

Also trot is mediocre for Rex

445 compared to Carno's 495

[halcyon elk]

They aren't finalized speeds though.

[keen plover]

Yeah exactly.

Trot needs to be buffed, and speed brought down to like 30 - 34km/h

[dusky surge]

i do hope rex isn't slow, because I feel that's an artificial as hell way of making the animal "balanced"

[keen plover]

Should be around legacy speed

[halcyon elk]

Imo I think it should be "slow" but damn it can track you.

[dusky surge]

I think ideally a good trotrate is what we need

Sprint speed can be good at youth, worse at adult, whereas trot improves as it grows larger due to longer strides

[halcyon elk]

That or just have Stam drain on running be very little

[dusky surge]

I do believe ambush rex is lame as all hell so I'm happy they want an endurance approach

[keen plover]

I think it's fine if they do a blend. Trot can let it be endurance based against certain prey

Low stamina, good burst of speed (34km/h?) and a good trot

[halcyon elk]

I mean. You can do both.

Like how rex did irl

[uncut trellis]

Let’s be honest tho stego was never gonna be faster than rex unless it was silly. I’m just hoping the kit adjustments stego is planned to get will help it against rex. At least it’s showing the devs recognize the issue

[halcyon elk]

Likely more damage on headshot.

[dusky surge]

That'd be a weird solution imho

[uncut trellis]

I’m hoping stego gets the anchor mechanic I’ve mentioned lol, where it’ll be immune to stun

[halcyon elk]

Fair. But to be honest. What would be?

[uncut trellis]

Just so rex can’t headbutt it and body it immediately

[dusky surge]

Unless they wanna add a unique system that specifically changes headshot damages

[dusky surge]

I personally feel that sounds super unfitting for stego, idk

[uncut trellis]

Stego is meant to be a defensive dino, I think it fits perfectly

[dusky surge]

like... i can't really see it anchoring at all though. Just look at it

It's a flat, high-standing animal with stub feet

It's not got a super low centre of gravity

like anky

[uncut trellis]

It’s more just staying in place by sprawling it’s feet more

[dusky surge]

nor has it got an actual shield like trike

[halcyon elk]

Anky I see being a god at deflected mostly everything that tries their luck.

[dusky surge]

(both of which tend to have a more evenly distributed weight that would serve their balance well)

i honestly feel letting stego have some moving attacks would be good, like a tail flick to punish anything coming behind it

[uncut trellis]

I see trike being more “defense through offense”, and stego like “don’t mess with em and he won’t mess with you” kind of thing

[dusky surge]

i mean, we know trike has a literal duelist stance

[uncut trellis]

I think anky and stego will do very similar things just in their own ways

[uncut trellis]

Exactly my reasoning for the statement

[dusky surge]

i think anky and stego should be different enough that anky doesn't end up being the vastly superior option lol

[uncut trellis]

I do think stego should do more raw damage than anky, maybe even have more health

[dusky surge]

no way lol

more health than anky?

how small is this anky

[uncut trellis]

The devs did say anky was being downsized, but still apex

[halcyon elk]

Our anky seems small. But it is a CHONKY BOI.

7 tons or something iirc. Maybe less.

[uncut trellis]

Probs just more appearing small, also know that irl this played in ankys favor against its predators, being short but wide, and with the armor it’s good against trex jaws

[halcyon elk]

Technically anky has more health because damage modifiers.

[uncut trellis]

Will admit I don’t know the technics of that

[dusky surge]

damage modifiers and probably just... being heavier lol

i cant imagine a world where anky is lighter than stego

[halcyon elk]

Essentially anky is probably gonna be 0.5 damage if not less across its body.

[uncut trellis]

Looking at my size charts it does look anky is heavier, that plays a role on health right?

[dusky surge]

i'd personally make anky's damage resist just hard ignorance of most damage besides very specific situation

[dusky surge]

weight = health

[dusky surge]

stego is 6000kg, so it has 6000HP

[uncut trellis]

Noted

[halcyon elk]

Anky is 7400kg being 7400hp.

[dusky surge]

omniraptor? literally does nothing. zilch. no bleed, no damage, nothing

hell, i'd go so far to make it that gigas literally just don't fight it because of the fact anky basically ignores it

[halcyon elk]

Anky getting attacked by a pair of gigas trying to slash through its armor "yall hear somethin?"

[uncut trellis]

Giga should be hunting bigger apexes like Shants and sauropods anyway, I think anky and stegos main predator honestly should be spino

[dusky surge]

i personally want stego to be faster than a spino because i want spino to be absurdly slow

anky is slower than spino because... it's anky

[halcyon elk]

Anky main predator is...honestly? At adulthood besides maybe a spino or rex that catches it lacking. There ain't much that can genuinely kill an anky.

[uncut trellis]

It should definitely be the slowest of the big three carnivores

[dusky surge]

which is good, i want that

[uncut trellis]

I’m personally ok with that idea, just a slow but chill dino, with a few predators that can truly take it on

[halcyon elk]

They're much more vulnerable as juveniles. But at adulthood. It's probably gonna be a herbivore like shant that's its main worry

[uncut trellis]

Yea I wonder how a shant stomp would do to an anky hunkering down

[halcyon elk]

About 16000kg stomping on something weighing around 7000kg

[uncut trellis]

Yea but looking at the physics of it, most of the weight on a big hadrosaur like shant is on its back legs, like less than half of their weight is past their shoulders, idk I just don’t think it’s exerting that much, just a thought

Still tho this is an animal twice its weight actually trying to flatten it tho

[halcyon elk]

If it's with murderous intent it'd be like a moose

[uncut trellis]

Murder bird moose, this’ll be exciting

[halcyon elk]

unstoppable. Unmoored. Uncaged. Downright unreasonable.

At least until 3 gigas show up

And if you got 3 gigas on yourself. You must've really messed around.

[graceful swallow]

I could see spino being slower then stego because it weighs much more but idk since spino is taller and is not full aquatic, plus bipedal for them long strokes

[uncut trellis]

I just wish para got a little bit of shant treatment, something that big shouldnt be as pathetic as the concept art is showing

[keen plover]

Thoughts on the Carno acceleration change?

[uncut trellis]

Honestly I think it should be buffed a tad, like still slow but now it’s just too much. And same with bleed resistance holy heck carno has never bled this badly

Like it should still have bad acceleration and bleed resistance but rn it’s way too much

[keen plover]

You seen the stream?

[uncut trellis]

Not the whole thing, just summaries on YouTube

Was it brought up?

Looks a lot like it used to be

It’s too quick I think

[keen plover]

It's insane

[uncut trellis]

Like if carno can take off that quick than cerato has no chance, not to mention if it’s charge hit box stays broken

@ivory forge 👆

[uncut trellis]

So I’m thinking it’s like this carno in the stream is the worst on one end, and carno currently in 6.5 is the worst on the other end. I think we need a balance in between

[dusky surge]

i'd imagine it still has nuke charge on top of that lol

so get screwed

[uncut trellis]

Don’t even throw that out lol:P

[dusky surge]

he even admits its a plains hunter lol

i wonder if its still designed as an ambusher lol

with that accel it might as well be

[dusky surge]

alt attacks should cost stam, the fact they don't is absurd

honestly, i think regular bites should cost stam too

i dont think so

[slim dragon]

All of this just sounds like making it easier for omnis to fight other things

[dusky surge]

i think the fact carnivores get infinitely easier free attacks is lame

i dont think stam should prevent you from attacking

[slim dragon]

Every attack including bite costing stam
But you can still attack when out of stam, at the cost of the attack being 50% slower and dealing 50% less damage

[dusky surge]

and I think Dondi agrees with me

based on what he said in a recent stream, looks like stamina is going to play a very different role in combat

[slim dragon]

Imagine you can't run away because you moved your tail too much
That's what happens with teno and stego

The only reason omni struggles is because others can bite it while it's latched on

Same with troodon

[stark knoll]

Which are bugs

Gotta be fixed, it makes pouncing a suicide instead of your primary tool

[slim dragon]

Terrain abuse ? Like putting yourself near a cliff so omnis fall to their deaths when dismounting ? That's not terrain abuse, that's being smart

[dusky surge]

all attacks should cost stam, but attacks shouldn't be prevented because you're out

and Dondi seems to be adding a system like that

he said something about no longer being able to metagame how many tailslams a teno can do to kill it

[slim dragon]

Yes omni should require being smart when its prey is over 3x its size AND is acting smart

Playing omni doesn't necessarily involve killing tenos and stegos, you know

Except deino and ptera

[dusky surge]

omni isn't that hard at all, if anything, it's very strong

[slim dragon]

No, stego can die to a lot of things, especially when it's young

[dusky surge]

stego is nowhere near the level of ptera and deino

[slim dragon]

yes... that is the point of playing a 6-ton armory on legs

Another fully grown stego
A pack of omnis
A good deino, or 2 average deinos
A pack of troodons

[dusky surge]

deino, cera, troodon, omni, stego

[slim dragon]

Ceras can still kill stegos without vomitlock ?

[dusky surge]

compared to deino being killed by either
A: Another deino
B: Stego (has to be stupid)

yea, i know

because stego isn't that immortal

i'd argue it's pretty goddamn mediocre

growing one while deino exists as an easier time growing and surviving as, while also just being generally stronger, is silly

deino is universally the better option

exactly

[graceful swallow]

out of stam attacking could be implemented by maybe reducing attacks damage by 50% or another certain percent, this way you can attack but if your outta stam you do less damage as your dino is exhausted

not sure how attacks work rn when out of stam but they seem just as effective but you cant alt bite

[random stump]

"Strongest bite force in the animal kingdom 23,100 psi"
Trex with 431,000 psi :

[dusky surge]

deino main moment

[random stump]

"Deinosuchus is one of the largest reptiles if not the largest"
Every sauropod, large marine reptile, and apex carnivore:

[dusky surge]

i mean, the apex carnis aren't reptiles, but yea, mosa obliterates it in sizew

[random stump]

The apex carnis are reptiles, they are not lizards though

Dinosaurs were just a diverse group of archosaur reptiles

Crocs are also archosaurs so

[graceful swallow]

he was probably thinking about todays animals, he forgot hes playing a dino game

[random stump]

Bro thinks deinosuchus is one of todays animals 💀

[graceful swallow]

True he'd have to of thought that too lmao

[slim dragon]

There's a deinosuchus in my backyard

[graceful swallow]

Get the semi auto 12 gauge

[random stump]

In modern times a crocodile takes the cake for strongest bite force
Mesozoic they were gettind dwarfed by many creatures

[slim dragon]

She likes scratches on the back of her head

[graceful swallow]

If thats the case, we should not get the 12g lol

[random stump]

• if we want deino realism then if anything sneaks up on a deino and bites its mouth the deino cant fight back while it gets its jaws crushed/torn up and while the guy holding its mouth shut's groupmates tear it apart
  (Crocodiles have really bad muscles for opening their mouths)

[dusky surge]

its so funny that people quote realism when talking about these dinosaurs, as if stuff like realistic deino and realistic rex wouldn't just ruin the game and be the only viable animals

[random stump]

Realistically no sauropod but maybe brachi would be playable if realism rex was added

And no other apex carnis

[dusky surge]

almost like both rex and deino are examples of hyper-evolved super predators that are insanely good at what they do

and they'd be insanely unfair and oppressive if 100% real to life

[random stump]

Deino is very good at killing things that come to the water
that are much smaller then them

I mean the only difference between realism deino and current deino is 1 shotting stego with a head shot

[slim dragon]

Yeah deino has an instant win button against anything that is 4 tons or less
Yet somehow people want it to be even better at killing

[slim dragon]

(And also being one shot by stego with a head shot)

[random stump]

Gigagator never loses a fight! He is the best deinosuchus ever!
Any sauropod simply walking onto gigagator :

[dusky surge]

idk who the hell gigaraptor is

[random stump]

Giga gator

[thin mantle]

Honestly skill issue ngl frfr like omg

[ashen sail]

sooo whats up wiht the ping on officials?

[hollow canyon]

Debatable

[slim dragon]

The debate stops at juvenile rex being 50+ km/h
There's a reason there were no mid-sized theropods coexisting with rex

[hollow canyon]

It really doesnt

[hollow canyon]

if you have another large predator that outgrows T.rex it becomes a whole different story

because if that other large predator grows faster then it can simply usurp the kills of the younger Tyrannosaurs

[slim dragon]

The thing is
Nothing outgrows irl rex

The thing grew very fast

[hollow canyon]

you'd think

but that doesn't seem to be the case

as per Witton's new chart

[slim dragon]

What do you mean ?
There's a recent study showing rex grew very fast but didn't live long

[hollow canyon]

hold on

[slim dragon]

The only comperitors are giga which grew slowly) and spino (which wouldn't have been an apex at all)

[hollow canyon]

the question is whether Giga actually grew slowly - you can't really tell because you don't have any material that would let you decide when Giga actually reached 8-9t

[slim dragon]

I'm pretty sure the study also included carcharodontosaurs

[hollow canyon]

Mapusaurus seems to outgrow T.rex as per Mark Witton:

[hollow canyon]

there's no saying that all the carcharodontosaurids would grow the same

aside from that - there's literally 0 evidence on Giga itself because we only have enormous, mature specimens of it

no young specimens

[slim dragon]

Even then, the original point that most of the roster would be unviable still stands

[hollow canyon]

as per Witton its closest relative grew faster than T.rex

well depends

some of them could indeed be screwed

not all though

Dilophosaurus, Ceratosaurus, Magyarosaurus, Tenontosaurus - all definitely fodder, Dilo probably the least

[slim dragon]

Things like cera, allo and carno would already be out the window
Maybe alberto too
Teno and magy would obviously die out
I'm guessing the smaller ceratopsians too

[hollow canyon]

Carno would be fine

[slim dragon]

Oh yeah dilo would be fodder too

[hollow canyon]

it would thrive tbh, it's faster than anything else and could potentially hunt those young T.rexes depending on its speed estimate, there's definitely an overlap there

[slim dragon]

Or be hunted by said young rexes...

[hollow canyon]

not happening, it dwarfs them

Carno is no pushover

it's more massive and quite possibly as fast or faster than them

depending what age they are exactly

[slim dragon]

It only dwarfs them up to a certain point
Juveniles don't jump from under 2 tons to 10 tons overnight

[hollow canyon]

sure but at 2t I don't believe they are faster than it anymore

iirc the 50km+ speed estimate goes for the specimens around ~700kg or so if not even younger than that

brb I will check something

715kg

was the estimate for the speedy Tarbosaurus

T.rex could push it a bit further in speed

but it won't be maintaining that speed as it gets to the size where it would maul a Carno

Carno is 50km/h based on this estimate

while being close to 3 times the size

[slim dragon]

Ah, well
Carno would probably be fine then

[hollow canyon]

Carno would be fine, it would invlidate half the roster itself tbh if the game was realistic

even if T.rex wasn't a thing

realistically it would be disintegrating any species under its own size minus maybe the very small ones, it's got hell of a bite, it's quite big, ridiculously fast

[slim dragon]

Surprisingly enough, putting apex predators from different environment and time periods together doesn't end well

[hollow canyon]

I don't disagree

I just think that there would be a bit more nuance to it

than just T.rex munching everything, there are things that could kill it

things it never coexisted with

although it would definitely thrive in such environment

but again - the closest relative of Giganotosaurus seemingly grew about as fast if not faster than T.rex, although it may have been less competent as a juvenile

then there's a few other dinosaurs that could put some strain on the younger stages of T.rex growth

but yes it is rather nonsensical to make the game completely 100% realism, I agree with that

[slim dragon]

There would be a benefit to making the game 100% realistic tho
There would be no omni

[rough fjord]

^^

[distant torrent]

@polar vine I agree with everything except the pachy stun but I just have a small preference for the stun idea. I’d just like it to stun only if it hits a non fractured part of the body (already fractured body parts that are hit won’t cause a stun)

[polar vine]

cool idea also!

[tender nebula]

@next leaf you are sick if you think deino should fly 💀

[hollow canyon]

it used to be able to fly, perhaps it can do it again?

Although back when it used to fly it kind of struggled with landing

an event dubbed "the Deino space program"

but hey, maybe they are getting better at it, you never know

[tender nebula]

wait a minute it was able to fly?

[hollow canyon]

yea back in the day

I remember flying Deinos

[tender nebula]

OHH u talking about in game

[hollow canyon]

that got removed pretty quickly alas

[tender nebula]

i thought in irl lmaoo

[hollow canyon]

yea, ofc

lol no way would a 10t crocodylian fly irl

but in the game yea it did at one point

and at another it could make its prey fly

if you lunged something you could launch it into the stratosphere

[slim dragon]

uuuuh dragons ??

[dusky surge]

dragon evolVe to gator

[distant torrent]

#balance-feedback message I don’t think buffing one playable to counter the buff of another is a good idea. sounds like we’re going to get two overtuned carnivores ravaging the populations of other playables 💀 all you’ll basically ever see are carnos and ceras running around killing each other

[dusky surge]

basically, yea

i honestly think cerato just waltzing around open plains confidently is silly

[random stump]

thats fair
but being in the woods doesnt make it get facetanked any less its just that carnos are too lazy to check the woods

[keen plover]

That isn't really a problem. We just need more shallow rivers so stuff like Teno & Cera can wade to avoid carnos better

Carno just needs more places to be ineffective, so that there is an option to just avoid the thing / move to when it gets tough in a fight

Cera without a body buff in the open plains should be on the back foot

[dusky surge]

the map needs to be designed so that food and general playability isn't limited to plains

[keen plover]

Yeah pretty much

[dusky surge]

i personally feel the fact that the game currently has one biome doesn't help much in these balance discussions

[random stump]

true
the fact that nothing can see or hunt in the woods really can make it like that

troodon and hypsi and dryo would be much better if the woods were actually a viable palce to live instead of just a hiding spot for juvies before they lived in the plains

[open flicker]

ive noticed (when falling through the map) that the entire baseline of the map is water, if this water was removed and instead only placed where the rivers are this would improve player fps in game since theyre not rendering in an entire ocean which isnt even visible and water in games tends to be big or performance especially when it looks good and moves like the isle does

[dusky surge]

@mighty tree what does cannibalism have to do with the buffs

[mighty tree]

carno will be harder to kill

[slim dragon]

Cannibalism is a buff

[dusky surge]

cannibalism is a massive buff that makes it easier to sustain

[mighty tree]

also makes it so said dinosaur doesnt overpopulate

[slim dragon]

It's actually quite the opposite

Being a cannibal allows a dino to overpopulate more easily

[dusky surge]

^

in a server with 100 carnos without cannibalism, those 100 carnos can't eat each other if they aren't cannibals, they will suffer from malnutrition or starvation

in a server with 100 carnos with cannibalism, every carno can gain nutrition and organs from other carnos, making all carnos able to survive

yes, some carnos will die, but the overall population will be able to live healthily

without cannibalism, only a select few who found high-value AI will even be able to have one nutrient

[mighty tree]

now you see, you have made up a scenario that is extremly unlikely.

if there is a server with a regular carno population nowadays (lets said 10-20) then there will be around 2 adult carno groups that will cannibalise the rest if they are hungry (if they dont support megapacking) ultimately lowering the population/making most of it younglings

[dusky surge]

yea, except cannibalism also supports megapacking

so you'll see a lot more megapacks a lot more often

because why bother continuing looking for food when one dead carno can feed 6?

we used to have upwards of 40+ carnos on a server while cannibalism was around

because it was extremely easy to keep 'em going

also an extremely fast, aggressive hunter should not also be a cannibal, that's just bad

[slim dragon]

Then just replace carno with deino
Which are commonly 40+ on a server

[dusky surge]

exactly

[mighty tree]

main difference is that deinos have like 0 predators whatsoever

except other deinos (which most of the timer are super against cannibalizing for some reason)

and like a lucky cera when you are fresh spawn

carnos however can be hunted by troodons, omniraptors, ceratos and deinos

[slim dragon]

Doesn't make the ability to cannibalize less of a buff

Trust me, there wouldn't be as many deinos on every server if they weren't cannibals

Again, if there are 100 of a cannibal dinos species on a server, they have plenty to eat
Remove their ability to cannibalize, and they have nothing to eat

[dusky surge]

because they have an easy supply of fish and can feed 8 deinos off like one deino corpses lol

[dusky surge]

also the fact that carnos can be hunted by literally any of these animals is stupid imho

[normal lark]

I would love finally battle carnos and not lose all my health to a carnl who decides to point blank a charge in my face

[keen plover]

@alpine plover You don’t buff both carnos acceleration to those heights and its turn. It would something you couldn’t win against as teno or cerato.

Like Carno does beat cera rn, but with those changes it wouldn’t even be able to evade it

I do think in terms of acceleration and turn, update 5 Carno was the best Carno we had. Both fair and fun

[normal lark]

Their is actually a way to be cerato, but it mainly does involve the carno being put into a position where it stand still and trys to commit to a face tank

[normal lark]

It's not a particularly common thing but it's fairly easy to do

[alpine sleet]

@analog mirage what do he means by making tail slam directinal, im not used to some english terms

anyone can give me an example of a directional attack?

[analog mirage]

Think of how when Teno kicks it can still turn and hit things to the side mid attack, same thing for Tailslam should be applied cause rn you get locked into this animation straight behind you

It was even technically shown in the concept art sorta

[normal lark]

It would ve cool, tho it seems to take longer to slam

[graceful swallow]

pretty soon no ones gonna want to play cera lmao

[keen plover]

Depends how it performs on Spiro, but if it's not getting a lot of PvP action, then the playerbase will probably die off. Right now its a hunter. So that's why people play it.

Well the majority of the Cera playerbase

[graceful swallow]

True I just mean how carno will prob fold cera if its ram does not get enough of a nerf

imo it should be a coin toss when cera and carno fight 1v1

[keen plover]

Ram barely matters imo. That acceleration lets carno trade hit for hit and avoid the charge bite

It's beating Cera every time, unless Cera also gets overtuned to contend with that

[dusky surge]

basically, forests better be livable

lol

[keen plover]

Exactly

Need herbi diets in there.

Or migration zones

[dusky surge]

we're going to have to accept at some point that not every animal should be contesting with carno (looking at you, omni)

[keen plover]

I do hope we get migration areas in Highlands. Which will also help Cera

[keen plover]

Pretty much any carnivore smaller than Carno probably wants to avoid the plains. I do hope they actually do struggle to maintain megapacks on Gateway lol

[dusky surge]

yea

[keen plover]

If 10 Carnos are grouping on Gateway, I'm going to be pretty disappointed.

[zenith comet]

Beipi swimming speed is fine wdym

[dusky surge]

i like the jump height increase but i dont see why the swim speed should be faster

[alpine plover]

It feels a bit slow for me. But its just my opinion. And since it's a beipi aka have little to no effect on the ecosystem, I dont think we have to think about balancing it out.

[dusky surge]

i think that's a silly way of looking at things

[distant torrent]

beipi’s adult water jump does feel very lackluster. maybe it was just a skill issue on my part or the narrow waterways or even both, but I would always get grabbed by deinos after reaching adult and trying to breach out of the water to juke them lol. the water breach feels both slow and not high enough to effectively juke something in the water. sub beipi’s water breach feels great

[alpine plover]

I mean at the end of the day a game's meaning is fun. And if a certain playable has little to none effect on the game's ecosystem or the game's overall balance, might aswell make it as fun as possible.

[dusky surge]

i mean, i don't see how making it faster makes it more fun, if anything, it makes deino chases less interesting

[alpine plover]

I guess its a preference

Its similar to why I would like beepy to jump higher. Not because the sweaty balance of being 0.25% more effective escaping a deinos bite, but because its more fun.

[analog mirage]

I’d rather just make Beipi more agile in the water rather than sluggish because it can’t evade deino or juke it at all

[thin mantle]

Nah beipi just needs a load of touchups. First being it’s adult jump…. It’s pretty bad

[distant torrent]

100%

[alpine sleet]

ohh i get it, like you are locked in place and its very hard to hit something

[analog mirage]

Pretty much

[alpine sleet]

whenever i fight omnis i dont even bother using the tail slam

its very hard to land, at least for me, even more without the pounce recovery

[analog mirage]

Which is why it should be directional so you can hit them more easily

Use it more like a alt attack

[alpine sleet]

yea

[alpine plover]

@fiery cipher that's what i said but i don't know why people vote no, it actually looks so weird, we are not even saying the speed, that's ok, but the run animation looks so weird

i share my opinion with you.

[distant torrent]

not many things will be able to catch a young carno with those proposed speeds my guy. growth will be a lot easier for it

[alpine plover]

i never mentioned speed

just the animation of it, it looks like if it was a utah when it's not

[distant torrent]

might want to point it out then because it makes it look like you’re suggesting the speed of the carno itself