balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

i dont read all of your messages im afraid, i dont care enough about every single argument to keep a mental dictionary

[knotty harbor]

it wasnt my msg it was Dracobeast

[dusky surge]

he literally echoed what i was saying lol

why are you mad at me for saying the same thing in different language

it's like you're looking for an excuse to attack me

[normal lark]

Speaking of which, I have created a document about how to rework bacteria and such

[knotty harbor]

has nothing to do with that its just annoying you join every convo im in with the opposite take every time lol

[knotty harbor]

post it id like to read it

[normal lark]

I will, just note that it's still somewhat a work in progress so I'm updating it based on people's opinions and see if it works

[knotty harbor]

actually are we even allowed to post a doc?

[normal lark]

Good question

[plucky aspen]

might be better to just DM. but aslong as it's not advertising anything or to a sketchy site, i dont see an issue in it.

[normal lark]

Oh its not

Its just a Google document

Alr it's posted

[slim dragon]

Oh no you included RNG in it

[normal lark]

It starts out like rng, but over time becomes more common

[dusky surge]

RNG oh no

[slim dragon]

Why does it have to start out like RNG ?

[normal lark]

But that's just balance out the vomit stuff

[dusky surge]

Reduce/Remove the overall hunger and thirst loss gained from puking

Why???

[normal lark]

Wait what

[dusky surge]

Why did you remove all of the elements that actually make cerato feel threatening to deal with

Also vomit should decay literally everything

[normal lark]

Sorry forgot to remove that part

[dusky surge]

IDC if people think it's "annoying", it's cera

[normal lark]

Should scroll down

[dusky surge]

If anything, make it scale with weight, so it can't make stegos puke, that's literally step 1

Also I hate the chance based stuff

I can't agree with that

[slim dragon]

At least not as fast

[normal lark]

Alr I'll make note of that

[dusky surge]

This entire rework just makes it more frustrating for cera to use its primary mechanic

[normal lark]

Should read the debuffs cerato causes when someone gets a full stack on them

And the debuffs occur wether or not the target vomits

I can buff the numbers but won't do it to high

[dusky surge]

The debuffs just turn cera into a DPS animal over something that encourages you to leave because it will obliterate your entire hard work

Cera atm can be effective because you run the risk of losing your entire diet

A very powerful motivation

[normal lark]

Ceratos stated to focus on dps with its bites

[dusky surge]

No it isn't? Cera is explicitly mentioned to have weak bites

[normal lark]

Yes, but have dps in return

[dusky surge]

Have faster bites in return, not DPS

The faster bites help it apply bacteria more effectively

This rework really makes cera into something I just don't like. If you're bigger than the cera, who cares, just obliterate it on sight since its sickness is chance based and requires it to fully commit to a fight, it basically means that anything bigger than a cera never has to take it remotely seriously

[normal lark]

Which is why I'm gonna change the chance thing to the scale thing

When I said I'd make note of it

I meant it

[dusky surge]

The sickness itself is a hodgepodge of troodon venom, body fracture and head fracture cocktailed into one

[normal lark]

Not sure about the troodon part

[dusky surge]

Damage vulnerability

[normal lark]

That doesn't stack

[dusky surge]

Still comparable

[normal lark]

You said something about diet right

[knotty harbor]

so i dont know where you posted this but here is my take on the bile for cerato, 1. it shouldnt be spammable 2. it should build up with every bite and when it reaches to point the creature starts to puke it should randomly puke periodically until its out of its system, meaning it can either stay and fight and have chances to get cought in a puke animation and bit again or it can run and cerato can track the puke 3.it should take more bites per size of the animal to activate.

cerato also needs a stam nerf while carno should get a minor stam and hunger drain buff.

Teno should get its old dmg from its tail slam back and its hit boxes fixed for stuff.

Pachy should be able to stun on fracture yeah i said it a stun i dont care if you disagree.

[normal lark]

Well now that I'm changing the vomit from chance based to scaling, that means you'll also have to fear diet loss

Since I changed it some time ago to make the target loose 75% when vomiting but only for 1 diet

[normal lark]

To make the debuffs more serious if someone decides to stay

[dusky surge]

I'd rather the debuffs be serious if you decide to engage

[normal lark]

Since those debuffs aren't only nerfing it to cerato only

[dusky surge]

So you just... Don't engage with cerato.

[normal lark]

Once you get the debuffs, you keep them until you heal from sickness, and everything will take advantage of the debuffs you have

[dusky surge]

Finally, the ultimate mixpacker

Mixpacker community rejoice

[normal lark]

Now you say it, yeah I'm gonna just make it only apply for ceratos only

[knotty harbor]

eh i kinda disagree if its a group of ceratos sure but a solo cerato shouldnt be such a nuisance just from its mechanics that it can simply keep everyone and everything from engaging it

[dusky surge]

a solo cerato should be a nuisance, otherwise it's kinda failed at its one purpose, bullying you off corpses

if its a non-issue, it's a pretty unengaging animal to play if most just brush you off

[knotty harbor]

yeah well your also ignoring the fact its a smaller creature its capability shouldnt be limitless just cause cerato

[dusky surge]

of course, but at the same time, a cerato should be allowed to face off with a carno, max, in a 1v1

[knotty harbor]

i also think its body buff needs a 30% nerf bringing to 20% max instead of 50% cause frankly in its current state without the buff it can already solo carno

[knotty harbor]

it already can

[dusky surge]

honestly, i'd nerf the speed and/or stam before the body buff (although the body buff is nuts)

at least the body buff encourages it to do what its meant to do

[knotty harbor]

50% is just too much lol

[dusky surge]

fair

[normal lark]

Diablo, how would feel if I updated vomit to where once you lose diet, you can't get it back until you heal the sickness aswell

[dusky surge]

that just sounds frustrating as hell tbh

[knotty harbor]

what did you think of my take on how vomit should work diablo

[dusky surge]

Honestly, I think sceptic bite is getting MASSIVELY overthought. I'd just do it that every bite applies an effect which gradually applies more and more bacteria over time, dependent on weight. So, if you were to bite a 1000kg creature, it'd be 2% bacteria per second over 20 seconds. A 2000kg would be 2% over 10 seconds, a 3000kg animal would be 2% over 5 seconds, continue halving for every 1000kg.

Charged bite just changes it to 4% instead of 2% per second. That way, they still puke over time, but vomit lock becomes basically impossible because of the timer

[knotty harbor]

eh i feel like that gives things too much time to just run away, say you get 5 bites on a carno and it decides its going to run, assuming they buff its stam the cerato will never find it because it will take too long to start puking

same for really anything

[dusky surge]

they run away, they puke, you can smell the puke

you can follow

[knotty harbor]

yeah and the keep moving

[dusky surge]

with the stam they just lost from the puke, not going to be great

[knotty harbor]

true but bile eventually goes away so it becomes a game of following puke until it stops and i dont see cerato finding the creature that ran away 5 to 10 mins ago simply by following puke every now and then

the way it works now it doesnt have to wait for it to activate so it can start tracking now, problem is it only pukes once when it should keep puking until its no longer debuffed

also @dusky surge i heard last night from a guy that rex was going to be an endurance hunter with a tracking mechanic do you know anything about that cause god i hope thats not true lol

[dusky surge]

it's said to be a bloodhound and have good endurance so uh, yea

it quite literally has an insane trot for a reason

[knotty harbor]

facepalm

[dusky surge]

it trots MUCH faster than tenonto so that should be enough indicator

[knotty harbor]

im mean its also taller so the trot makes sense what wouldnt make sense is it having high stamina

[dusky surge]

we don't know if it has high stam

[knotty harbor]

i mean high endurance sounds like high stam to me

[dusky surge]

nah, not really

giga was an endurance predator in legacy despite having pretty bad stam

[knotty harbor]

cause ya know you have infinite trot in this game

[dusky surge]

simply because it trotted crazy fast and regenned stam in trot, unlike rex

making it really good at constantly pursuing midtiers

[knotty harbor]

to be fair its stam wasnt bad its stam regain was bad lol

[dusky surge]

its stam regain was one of the best of any apex

in fact it was the best stam regen of apex carnis

[knotty harbor]

or am i thinking of acro

[slim dragon]

Why should cera be tracking down a carno exactly ?

[knotty harbor]

to kill it duh

[slim dragon]

Is cera a predator to carno now ?

[knotty harbor]

its literally on the diet

[dusky surge]

(because it's a scavenger)

[slim dragon]

I thought it was supposed to be not great at hunting

[dusky surge]

it's also got deino on the diet

[slim dragon]

diet is bad

[dusky surge]

despite, y'know, deino countering everything cera can do

can't puke, bleed res, dives to safety, ignores body buff by just drowning the bastard

[knotty harbor]

its not post to be great at hunting but its bile mechanic is post to be used to track stuff through its puke it literally shows this in the trailer vid for ceras puke mechanic even with a carno

[slim dragon]

But cera isn't shown running down carnos...

[dusky surge]

using diets as a surefire guide for what something that can "hunt" is uh, not a great idea

[knotty harbor]

correct its shown tracking one with its puke

[slim dragon]

Carno is literally one of the hardest things to hunt
It's ridiculously fast for its size

[dusky surge]

reminder, omni has deino and cera on its diet, despite those two animals literally being built to kick its ass

[knotty harbor]

yeah thats cause omni doesnt have many small things in the game to kill yet

that are actually played anyway

[dusky surge]

it literally could've gotten beipi, ptera or hypsi

all of which are infinitely more logical picks

[knotty harbor]

yeah hypsi being on diet basically means your not getting your diet be real here lol

[dusky surge]

not really? that's why options exist lol

and organs

[knotty harbor]

nobody plays hypsi unless they are rping raising kids like weirdos

or trolling with the spit

[dusky surge]

"rping raising kids like weirdos"

is there something wrong with engaging with a mechanic the game gives you lol

[knotty harbor]

no but there is also nothing wrong with me calling adults speaking like kids weirdos

[dusky surge]

idk what situation you're on about because i haven't seen that while playing hypsi

[golden coral]

Did you two conclude anything useful concerning cerato?

[knotty harbor]

ive played hypsi twice and both times i nested in and they were rping as a family and to me its just kinda weird people can do whatever they want but yeah

[knotty harbor]

we have concluding it needs a rework

lol

[dusky surge]

i mean, you literally nested them in, idk what you expected, the game is designed to make them dependent on you

[knotty harbor]

yeah but i dont need the little babbling talk and people calling people daddy and stuff its weird

im just kinda old school i only call my dad dad ok lol

and my moms dead so i wont ever call anyone mom

[rustic rock]

That's pretty funny tbh

[distant torrent]

I actually find this incredibly ironic and funny #balance-feedback message sounds like the only monopoly here that’s wanted is cera and pachy to stunlock everything without an ounce of thought or skill needed

[knotty harbor]

drugs

[rigid tulip]

Good point on the pachy. And carnos in a group of 3 just literally kills the entire server. With that being said the idea of keeping vomitlock is a disgrace

Solo carno is guaranteed death if u run into competent raptor/cera players in a group, but with that being said there is no counterplay besides hiding or picking stego/deino if there is a proper pack of carnos around

Carno will always be unbalanced in either direction until we get something like allo. A carnivore that it can’t facetank, yet something that can also catch it if the carno ie caught off guard. Carno demands that everything else in the game be balanced around it. If it was my choice it would be gone, but we need to find a solution eventually. Its been like 2 years of “its op!” Or “bro they butchered carno” every update.

[rigid tulip]

I think cannibalism on carno again would fix this problem without having to nerf again the already horrid to play carno

[keen plover]

It won’t. You can’t population limit the fastest and largest land carnivore in the game via cannibalism. That will just add another food option for them.

3 good Carnos like you said is enough to kill off a server.

The issue is Carno’s food requirements are too easy. If players want to megapack right now, then nothing would stop them from doing so.

Organs give too much food. They could lower the food amount from them. The flesh on bodies are fine from my experience.

[rigid tulip]

Good point. U swallow one lung and you go from 20% hunger to 95

[rustic rock]

I'm not sure how you balance Carno, considering the power of a 3 carno group. The only thing I could think is potentially making terrain more varied, for example like the wallow pits causing you to move slowly through it, this same effect could affect larger dinosaurs like Adult Carno's for example. Instead of flat nerfing or buffing stats, changing the environment to benefit smaller dinosaurs might change how you engage these guys. It's also evident that larger dinosaurs often preferred open fields to densely packed forests for example, as they could manuever around and see further then smaller dinosaurs. I think Dino vs Dino imbalance issues could instead be addressed through map design considerations and other mechanics that involve terrain or other mechanics.

[keen plover]

The other creatures just need sure-fire ways to avoid Carno.

Omni using tall grass possibly, agility and its eventual 'climb' will be enough.

Teno & Cera can use rivers / wade in shallow rivers to evade Carno while having the tools to dish out damage.

Pachy has fractures and hopefully future buffs.

Dryo & Troodon are fine imo.

Galli has speed.

The others are irrelevant

Then you can buff Carno for solo play

And make groups harder to sustain

3 Carnos in a group shouldn't be common unless they're excelling at hunting

[dusky surge]

dryo will also likely get burrows

[keen plover]

Yeah exactly. We just need to give these 'small' creatures the tools to avoid Carno. Also they'll perform better in more biomes

[rustic rock]

Would love to see this. Expanding the tools of other dinosaurs to have other unique mechanics like burrowing or climbing trees would be very cool.

[south sandal]

The thing is there is no where to really hide

except bushes

Or you could possibly lose something in the forest if you are near one

[knotty harbor]

how do yall think this would go for balance give me your thoughts #general-feedback message

and if all your gonna say is its too much like a game mechanic even though in the same breath yall say this game doesnt focus on realism i dont care just vote lol

[rustic rock]

I like the idea, it further implements a deeper gameplay experience, and also adds reason to avoid clumping together in areas of the map as a carnivore, vice versa herbivores as well. Also develops a story to the server, where players can be apart of something greather then the individuals for example. I'd love to see it further iterated on and expanded with other ideas like taking territory and such creating rivalrys between other dinosaurs and developing a war or something like this... all of this would be emergent gameplay and something to experience

[knotty harbor]

well i actually havent finished my thoughts on herbi apexs yet but i do kinda have somewhat of an idea on them just not ready to discuss it

[quick cargo]

We rly need to nerf dryo guys!!! Its population is growing to big!!!

[jovial vessel]

I think you mean BUFF dryo

[dusky surge]

yes thats the joke lol

[knotty harbor]

@dusky surge @jovial vessel #general-feedback message what yall think and would change?

[dusky surge]

to be honest, i feel the risk of being ambushed by another apex should be there

this entirely removes that

[knotty harbor]

I see you didn't read the whole thing big oof

It's species and sex specific as in only male Rex's would see other male Rex's, no females or gigas just as an example

[dusky surge]

it also makes mega killsquad REALLY good at hunting down solos

[jovial vessel]

I kinda like it actually, it would probably be very hard to implement ingame but I think its a neat idea tbh

[knotty harbor]

Mega kill squad of what medium dinos?

[dusky surge]

Of other rexes

[knotty harbor]

Yeah you didn't read it lmao

[dusky surge]

I do like the idea of territory, but I feel the territory shouldn't be "simply be in a range of the rex"

[jovial vessel]

I think the biggest thing to stop an overpopulation of apexes will be making them Extremely hard to grow and maintain - also perhaps working out a way to negate afk growing

territory is a really neat idea imo

[knotty harbor]

The territory gives a food debuff that would be significant enough that a mega pack can't live

[jovial vessel]

for apexes only, probably carnivores? I dunno, herbivore apexes imo don't really need that

if the food buff increases/gets more drastic with the more of a certain species thats in proximity that could defeat megapacks bc they would simply be too hungry to sustain

[dusky surge]

he did specify carnivores

[jovial vessel]

mated pairs could have a merged territory, which promotes nesting being a thing

[knotty harbor]

It would be the scent range of the animal and in the case of placing territory I think it would be bigger because it can't move unless it wants to claim a new territory

[jovial vessel]

Im aware he did.

also means a looooot of competition for those holding territory in hotspots (I only know spiro so forgive me) so all the trexes trying to fight for center bc of the higher pop count etc

Idk I think the idea is actually really neat Pasternak

[knotty harbor]

This is also assuming they don't make the mistake of making apexs cannibal so killing the other apexs is specifically to defend your territory and end the food debuff

[jovial vessel]

ya ya exactly

I never really thought about how cannibalising also makes it easier to grow until recently

[knotty harbor]

Honestly cannibalizing should give violent vomit sickness that drains hp

[jovial vessel]

certainly a way to stop that, Ive seen a few carnos cannibalise recently but I think thats bc theyre all starving lmao

[knotty harbor]

Yeah I mean I don't blame current carno players lol

[mighty void]

for survival servers do you think they could add a point system for creatures? like low tier dinos are free and the longer they survive to adults they get X amount of points they can use to purchase higher tier dinos and perks? that might help with some things? like apex cost a lot mid tiers are decent just an idea

[knotty harbor]

no because to be frank i have no interest in small dinos and i wouldnt play if they did that

[dusky surge]

sounds a lot like progression tbh

personally, i feel progression should see a return, since i enjoy the distribution of smaller animals over a billion larger animals, but not as a replacement for survival

[knotty harbor]

id rather this game not do that as id never touch it again lol

[dusky surge]

an optional gamemode is that offensive to you lol

[knotty harbor]

it is because for all i know my fav server might switch to it

[dusky surge]

okay i guess

you could just try new things idk man

[knotty harbor]

or, dont limit what people can play?

nobody wants to play dryo to work their way to trike it makes no sense

[meager oriole]

S o m e people think that's better than Survival

[cunning merlin]

Why can Tenos one shot FG Troodon with a tail bite?

[keen plover]

As in a left click?

Normal bite?

That shouldn't even do much to you. It may have been desync

[cunning merlin]

nah its every time, Single Left click bite, Instant dead

I've stopped hunting teno now, because i always just instantly die to them, from a single bite

like its easier to hunt down a FG Stego, then it is to Hunt a FG teno, cause the stego cant Bite instant kill like the teno can

[keen plover]

You sure it's not the claw attack? The bite does 35n of damage. Which isn't enough to kill you

[cunning merlin]

The claw Attack insta kills as well, But no im specifically talking about a regular bite.

[keen plover]

Oh. If that's true, then it isn't intended.

The bite shouldn't kill you

[cunning merlin]

Thats what i figured, Just wanted to complain about it i guess lol. Troodon shouldnt be getting 1 shot from any regular bite from herbies.(the current ones in game)

[cunning merlin]

ya again one shot, by regular Bite attack , not alt. Thats annoying lol

[rustic rock]

Personally I think combat should be reworked, just feels a bit wonky tbh.

[quick latch]

@cunning merlin why? (to the omni recover)

[cunning merlin]

why i disagree? Because if you get smacked by a tree while pouncing, thats on you, and you should be negatively effected by it.

just like i think pounce miss stun needs to come back for omnis

[quick latch]

I agree but the sheer amount of time it takes is jokingly absurd you need to witness it ill try to record a clip at somepoint

[quick latch]

I dont entirely disagree but it needs to get balanced better

[cunning merlin]

is tree knockdown not the same as all knock downs? which got nerfed in 6.5 to be shorter already?

(i havent been tree knocked in a long time)

[quick latch]

no

[quick latch]

yea Im pretty sure omni tree brush is waaaay longer than knockdown

they are two diff animations

[cunning merlin]

hmmm if you get a clip time it and see if its the same time as the prev knock down timer, could be unintended

[quick latch]

ill try and hop on a free admin server and see if anyone will help me demonstrate

[opal linden]

Where do all the deer and boar spawn mostly?

tried a few times and couldn't find any

[cunning merlin]

Grasslands, near tree lines typically.

[opal linden]

alr nice

tyty

[quick latch]

I couldnt find anyone willing to help me out if I get one clipped ill prob make another post

[hollow canyon]

that's funny cause I'd immediately re-install this game if that happened.

[knotty harbor]

You would reinstall the game if they took choice away from you on what you could play? Lame

[dusky surge]

optional gamemode really not sticking as a concept is it

[knotty harbor]

Not really as I know the semi realism servers I like would use it to curb apexs

[marble sorrel]

i saw your post on raptors getting brushed off on trees, if you were latched on to something and were slammed into a tree and fell to the ground you would probably take a few seconds to get back up

im not saying that your idea is stupid, but just think about it, its still an animal

[hollow canyon]

I would reinstall it if they introduced progression which is a vastly better game mode than survival. That isn't taking the choice away.

[knotty harbor]

Is that the reason you don't play? Because you enjoy the pain of dying as a mid Tier while your friends live and being forced to play a taco while they run around without you?

[solar meteor]

i just want my damn sandbox test map on evrima

being able to practice fighting was so great on legacy

[snow quest]

same bro

[hollow canyon]

a/ my friends have stopped playing this game ages ago
b/ dying as a mid-tier and going back to a taco is such an extremely silly design that I don't know how anyone could suggest to reintroduce that in any new progression mode. It was dumb before and it would be just ridiculous now. You should be going one tier lower, not all of them.
c/ I don't play cause the game is a bug-ridden snooze-fest for... many, many reasons. I will care to take a look at it again maybe when Gateway comes out.

[golden coral]

@inland epoch Carno is not really balanced right now from what I've heard, charge not being very good or worth using due to high requirements and all (something about carno needing more stamina in general as well). So for now, it seems more likely carno needs buffs than nerfs, or at the least another adjustment on how it works and how charge works overall.

[dusky surge]

charge's damage is overtuned, and it does need a nerf, but not without buffs in many other areas carno sucks in

[jovial vessel]

Carno charge can activate waaaay too fast and its far too easy to land heaps of damge on a tail hit when it really should not

though I am glad carno finally doesnt feel as OP as it was before this update

[dusky surge]

sure, but now carno feels... really bad

like, it's objectively really badly designed

[jovial vessel]

It feels bad now bc of how strong it was, and being a small game hunter it should never of been the beast they made it

[dusky surge]

ironic you say that, and this leans into why I think U6.5 carno is one of the worst animals in EVRIMA's history, it sucks at hunting small game

It is arguably one of the worst small game hunters there are atm

Even galli does it better

[jovial vessel]

Its still an extremely popular play on the servers Im in, in packs it can be quite brutal still

Galli has the advantage of the insane turn radius to spam kick and good for galli

[dusky surge]

Carno's current design lends it to really one proficiency, bullying cerato. Which is why it's becoming popular. Cerato is popular, carno kicks cera's ass, people play carno, stop playing cera

[dusky surge]

Their turn radius is one of the worst in the game, and certainly the worst of any small tier

[jovial vessel]

well, its not really that small but aight

its better than carnos

[dusky surge]

Not a high bar let's be honest

It's mildly better than one of the worst turning animals in the game

[neon portal]

Carno has been a hot mess the whole time, goes from too strong to too weak, strong in weird areas and weak in other weird areas. Personally I think it needs rebuilding from the ground up

[jovial vessel]

rebuilding would be Great I just dont want them to make it ridic strong again

Im delighted that Omnis absolutely destroy Carnos tho but I am bias bc I loathe carnos in evrima

[dusky surge]

Its design mimics carno, but done well. Genuinely this thing is the better small game hunter.

• Endurance to continue pursuing prey even as they've attempted to escape
• Speed permits you to close the gap quickly
• Running attack is powerful and with several bonuses such as bleed and knockdown against smaller targets
• Alt-attack punishes reckless attacks from smaller creatures and allows for follow ups to finish these attackers off
• Has poor accel and turn, just like carno, but these elements are made up for with superior statbuilds that lend itself to small game hunting

Carno has none of these elements, and in many cases, the exact opposite, actively detrimenting its playstyle

[jovial vessel]

I....... do not want carno to have that much stam and be able to charge endlessly again however, that broke carno

[dusky surge]

IMHO, old carno was perfectly fine besides the hitbox

[jovial vessel]

disagree, it shouldnt have the bonus of lots of stam AND be a heavy hitter

[dusky surge]

If we had U6 carno with the acceleration of current day carno and a nerfed charge damage, I'd say that's a perfectly fine animal

[dusky surge]

Take the heavy hit from the charge, all its good for is permitting carno to take down ceratos and teno sized animals, not small game

Completely arbitrary for it to do that much damage

[jovial vessel]

so its okay that it deals heavy damage to say, an omni when a charge clips its tail?

[dusky surge]

No because the amount of damage it has is absurd

[jovial vessel]

I do not think Carno should knock over a FG teno that easily either since a teno does not knock a carno down iirc

[dusky surge]

It literally does 350 damage on charge, that's twice its bite force paired with knockdowns and locational damage modifiers. A headshot instantly kills an omni

200 damage would be a far more fitting number

[jovial vessel]

yeah lol witnessed that tonight when someone got deleted immediately

350dmg is insane

[dusky surge]

IMHO, the charge damage is actually hurting carno more than it helps

Carno's insane damage means it gets nerf after nerf after nerf

All weakening its base stats without addressing its real problem

[neon portal]

Charge has always been the issue, I haven't had a problem with much of the other stuff

[dusky surge]

Basically

[jovial vessel]

honestly yeah

[dusky surge]

And with gateway on the horizon, carno is in for some real trouble

[jovial vessel]

whats it even hitting with lol, its horns are pointing out sideways

[neon portal]

Talking about the base dino atm without bringing groups into it then it's weak and a pretty easy kill at the moment but i feel like the base issue is that there's nothing in place to help against huge packs I really want something (I'm not sure what at this stage) to stop getting together groups of 5-6 carnos or ceras because something balanced on its on its own becomes a near unstoppable force in huge numbers

[dusky surge]

Considering its still designed as this terribly botched ambush predator

[neon portal]

and because they can kill so easily finding food is rarely an issue and doesn't really slow mega packs down

[dusky surge]

Removing cannibalism was a good start, but it's a pretty difficult problem to solve

[jovial vessel]

mmm the megapacks of fullgrowns is really, really annoying to deal with

[dusky surge]

I'm thankful at least cannibalism is gone

[jovial vessel]

without moderated rules/admins I dont really know what they would do

yeah its certainly a start there

[dusky surge]

Tired of self-sustaining carno megapacks

[jovial vessel]

ceratos cannibalism makes sense - tho I think it should ONLY get bile/bacteria from rotten food or bones to try encourage cleanup

[neon portal]

yeah I haven't got any real thoughts on how to combat it at the moment because it feels like most of the options would be easy to abuse / straight up won't work / too messy. But having to hide in empty bits of the map to avoid the group of 8 carnos or ceras just sucks

[jovial vessel]

does suck, and lately the carnos especially have been grouping with a stego or two and its so......... bad

[dusky surge]

Issue is with carno is the best way to moderate its higher numbers would be like, an allo, which we don't have

[jovial vessel]

yeah, but then we would have so many allos 😭

[inland epoch]

I played carno and its charge was fine, because of the high usage cost it was viable to not just spam it all the time. make sure you're well rested before ambushing your prey. charge, knock it and finish it off as it tries to flee. Was an awesome time

what I have a problem with is the charge just literally hitting 2cm of tail on the very very end and doing full damage, a charge hitting the end shouldnt do anything at all realisctically as the tail would wrap and glide potentially getting a bruise but even deinos teeth do less damage then that....

[jovial vessel]

I dread the day of allo overload again

[dusky surge]

the high stam cost is part of carno's problem

it literally means carno sucks outside of some horribly botched ambush

which it does extremely poorly

still really wish they'd just let carno be a pursuit hunter over this... terrible ambusher that can't ambush well

[jovial vessel]

so you reckon, charge uses less stam/carno has a bigger stam pool but charge damage is GREATLY reduced and hitbox reworked (to avoid decimating things on tail hits)?

[inland epoch]

i didnt have a problem killing ceratos, other carnos, gallis, anything I saw and was able to stalk and get close enough to.

what I was talking about originally is it taking 50% hp off an evading raptor when it doesnt even visably get hit during a charge by hitboxes colliding carnos head to the utahs tail tip

its just stupid and unrealistic lol

[jovial vessel]

I agree Snaky

as the raptor on the recieving end of those charges a lot LMAO

[inland epoch]

fair enough getting hit in the body, thats your fault for getting hit lol

but not on the tail tip!

[neon portal]

I play raptor a lot and spend a chunk of time hunting carnos and 90% of the damage i take comes from a charge hitting my tail - no knockdown or anything but i lose a chunk of health its such a pain

[inland epoch]

i reckon the rest is fine just rework the hitbox and damage value for hitting that area, literally a deino biting the same spot does less damage

[jovial vessel]

does it seriously

[dusky surge]

What I'd do is this

Buff carno's bite damage to 200, make it that it needs less food to fill its stomach, while keeping stomach drain relatively the same as it is now

Charge now relies on a system similar to dryos dodge, where you get two charges, each on a 1 minute cooldown. The charge is a 2 second, 25% speedboost that does 250 damage and knockdowns on contact with an animal smaller than it and costs zero stam.

The alt-bite is a headswing that does 150 damage and knockdowns on animals less than 50% of the carno's size, no bleed though, good for keeping smalls away, bad for brawls against anything bigger than 900kg

[neon portal]

I also really want to see alt bites taking stam again (for everything not just carno) so I don't see things just standing there spamming alt bite

[dusky surge]

Would make it much worse against animals like cera, while actually decent against prey items like omnis and pachies

[dusky surge]

That's likely a hit on the base of the tail, which would do 210 damage, which is indeed almost half a raptor's health

[jovial vessel]

I guess I could be down for this, Im iffy on the charge costing no stam but having a 1min cooldown kind of negates that for me

alt bites no longer costing stam is......... well it was a weird call

[dusky surge]

Goal is to have the charge be able to use as a pursuit tool, catching up to prey, knocking them down, retreating, so on, it permits carno to get creative with the charge, rather than it being purely allocated as the "run at thing and hope it fall over" move

[neon portal]

I wouldn't mind it having charges means if it plays bad and uses two charges in quick succession you have a window without it, also short duration stops them from just using it to run down everything with the huge speed boost

[inland epoch]

not bad but i wouldnt like that. stam is fine, drain and regen is fine, carnos regen it incredibly quickly when sitting. get tired, have a rest thats their game.

yeah on the 'base' of the tail not the damn tip

[dusky surge]

stam is not fine on carno atm

it literally just struggles to even catch anything that's "small game"

its so pathetic at its one job

[inland epoch]

dont go into a scary area half filled on stam is the solution

i didnt have a problem catching sub utahs, grown ones, ceras, outrunning anything, even catching other carnos

[dusky surge]

by scary area, you mean the plains, the only place carno is viable

because apparently carnos are supposed to be plains predators, except also immediately run to trees or forests when faced with ceras or any threat

OH, almost forgot, buff carno's trot ffs

It trots the same speed as a CERA, that's absurd

Why is it so bad lol

[jovial vessel]

it does have a very slow trot

[inland epoch]

a carno vs a cera in the trees is dead

lol i dont know why you would run there against a cera

[dusky surge]

because it's sometimes your only option, and the expectation people have of carnos atm

[inland epoch]

in the plains it will kick its arse, and does carnos stam and drain is fine i reckon. cera needs less stam however

[dusky surge]

carno needs to be decent at pursuit and small game, and lose the whole "massive burst damage" thing, which only helps it against stuff like tenonto and cera

carnos stam should be indicative of an animal that spends most of its time in plains, or more preferably, have a trot that allows it to patrol its hunting ground without needing to sprint everywhere

[inland epoch]

trick is dont start your chase from max view distance, get up close enough to get that ambush to spring

[south sandal]

1v1 carno kills cera

[inland epoch]

it regens its stamina incredibly quickly

[dusky surge]

there's the problem. Carno ambush predator is REALLY bad for the animal

[inland epoch]

it is literally hit and run

[dusky surge]

It's a PLAINS animal, and with Gateway's upcoming flat, open plains, it's doomed if it maintains this hunting style

[inland epoch]

it hunts fine in the plains, you might need to change how you play it

[jovial vessel]

I wont speak for how carno plays, Ive not played one in a while lmao

[dusky surge]

I know how to play it, I dislike how its being played, it's relying on Spiro's terrible map design to prosper, it won't last in Gateway

[inland epoch]

originally carnos hitbox and damage it does hitting a raptor on the very end 2mm tip of its tail is OP, apart from that I dont see a reason to change anything else

[jovial vessel]

so much of the game is suffering on this map fr

[dusky surge]

Carno needs anything but nerfs atm

Unless it's getting buffed in desperately needed areas

[jovial vessel]

nah its charge needs a bit of nerfing in the dmg department, I dont think it should be a literal battering ram

[inland epoch]

go be a raptor, try out maneuver a carno charging and watch you frustratedly die when you obviously dodge its charge with half a body length to spare

[jovial vessel]

we should have ceratopsians for that imo

[jovial vessel]

this is my life as an omni fr 💀

[inland epoch]

its fkn annoying lol

everything else is fine, i can live with carnos having no stam cost for alt bites

[dusky surge]

Of course, but nerfing that alone would ruin this already terribly designed animal

[dusky surge]

I've literally been in that position and I pitied the carno because of how sad its attempts were

It's pathetically easy to avoid a carno

[inland epoch]

so just keep it having telekentic powers cause you cant kill any raptors in another way? lol

[dusky surge]

Not arguing for that

I am arguing that nerfing carno and saying its perfect as-is besides this one thing is wrong

[inland epoch]

carnos are easy to hunt pretty much anything with 1v1, 3v anything theyre gonna shred except stego deino obvs

[jovial vessel]

i rarely find carnos solo these days

[dusky surge]

Solo carno is the worst thing you can play atm

You need a group to succeed

[inland epoch]

okay let me re-word... fix damage values taken by raptors on the tip of their tail to carno charge damage

[jovial vessel]

ya im thrilled when i find them bc then its dead

[inland epoch]

and hitbox as they get smacked from over half a carnos body length of clearance away in some situations, (not all)

[solar folio]

Wanna interfere, if you don't mind. Agreed with mr. diablo, now carno is anything but not hunter for small prey. It is too easy to outmaneuver even on plains. Right now carno is in position of cera hunter mostly, which also ruins cera's position of scavenger because it can't even protect the corpse from anything but 2-3 omnis, carno just demolishes him. Rn carno ruining both its and cerato's niches.

[dusky surge]

tbh, it's more than likely a latency issue, there is no modifier that makes it that the carno does specifically more damage in that circumstance

[neon portal]

I occassionally find solo or duo carnos usually on their way to meet others or groups of 5-7

[dusky surge]

exactly, it's really unhealthy for the game to stay in this state

[jovial vessel]

so we all kinda think Carno shouldnt be killing ceras super easily yeah? if its small game hunter instead (well, supposed to be)

[dusky surge]

yes, that shouldn't be happening

[jovial vessel]

I feel like the devs kinda messed up where they wanted Carno to be on the pecking order and now its in a real weird place

[dusky surge]

def not what it should be going forward

[jovial vessel]

mmm, I think yeah, my issue lies with Carnos charge and how its built around it

I think also altering say... Ceratos speed/stam would also help it be able to get away

since cerato can run so many things down which is super weird

[inland epoch]

its not really a latency thing, ive done it to things too. its only under certain conditions where it is OP how I said before, not as bad as legacy hitboxes. Just somethign worth keeping an eye on

[dusky surge]

carno is literally entirely built around charge first, animal second, which is just WEIRD

[golden coral]

You do not ambush as carno, that's exactly why carno is so bad, because it's terribly designed. Current charge is just not good, it's way too demanding and not really something you can hit on targets that don't let you. Which is a problem as well. While your issue of hitting a tailtip and taking too much damage is valid, it does not excuse how bad carno currently is overall.

[golden coral]

Yes and no, the issue is that the charge itself is just terribly designed really. U6 carno was fine, aside from bugs.

At that point, charge did work as a pursuit tool, and all it needed aside from bug fixes would be damage adjustment and a little extra accel, and it'd have been pretty well designed as a pursuit tool.

[dusky surge]

every balance change has been around the charge, not to the charge's PRIMARY issue, which is its nuts damage that doesn't need to be

[solar folio]

If I'm not wrong cera was supposed to be some kind of the guy you don't want to mess even if you're a bit bigger than it because of its bacteria bite and survivability. It's the situation where small (omnis if they are not in big pack) and low-midtier carnis (rn it's only carno in-game) prefer to just leave to this annoying honeybadger few rotten remains of your prey if they are already full and don't mess with it.
And if it works with omnis, carno in its current state is kinda breaking it, soloing cera without significant issues. At the same time, even two carnos can't catch subadult omni on plains, which is kinda ridiculous.

[golden coral]

Current carno is just bad, because as per usual, changes that were done were not what was needed, or the problem in the first place.

[dusky surge]

carno is OP? nerf its stam, nerf its hunger, nerf its speed, nerf its turn, nerf its ability to survive bleed, but never the charge damage

[jovial vessel]

carno as an animal, doesnt look like something that would charge like a bull imo, its long neck doesnt seem to be built for it

[golden coral]

Especially since the damage + the numbers is what makes it scale so well.

[jovial vessel]

can agree that carno was nerfed to the ground bar its stupid charge

[golden coral]

Fair, but it's what we got in game, so we'll have to work with that

[dusky surge]

it moves faster than any land animal why does it need that much damage, it already has an advantage with that

[golden coral]

I'd rather have the charge purely be an increase in speed, or better yet, just turn radius, and let it be a "focus down specific target" ability

[jovial vessel]

sadly :( could just give it sudden speed boosts as a "Charge" to let it speed up and chase down things

yes!

[golden coral]

But since it does knockdown and damage, we'll have to take that into account, hence why I agree with Wave that lowering the damage properly, and adjust the accel so you can't just use it from point blank/spam it, but otherwise tune it around being good for pursuit would work

[jovial vessel]

point blank use is also, terrible

[dusky surge]

its why i want it to be a 25% speed boost for 2 seconds with a dryo style cooldown system (1 minute cooldown per charge, 2 charges max)

[jovial vessel]

yeah i can agree with that

[dusky surge]

would also make it very scary against galli's callboost, which does the same thing :)

[jovial vessel]

esp with larger carnivores incoming like allo etc that it would need to speed away from say

[neon portal]

yeah hearing a carno start a charge then getting a tail hit and taking half my health in damage not even a second later is infuriating, it should at least have to fully lower into the charge before it starts actually acting like a full charge

[dusky surge]

exactly, carno would be able to use it to dash the hell away from danger

[golden coral]

No good doing spite balancing, you know that :p

[jovial vessel]

Lmao I know I know dw

[golden coral]

It should. But the issue with landing tailtip hits is a specific issue, I'm more so talking in general terms that carno isn't in a good place, and the charge is back to being pretty badly "designed" again as well

[golden coral]

Hence the ":p" :D

If carno can't use charge at point blank, it's all the more reason to design it for pursuit over ambush

And it'd make it a far more terrifying plains predator at that

[jovial vessel]

Im very much leaning towards Carno having a speed boost, possibly slight damage on contact or possibly a knockdown if its small enough prey, rather than a full battering ram style dino

we're getting decent plains in gateway right?

[dusky surge]

Hell, do a galli and swap its bite to a headswing while running

[golden coral]

I'd argue carno should be of the visible danger, where you as smaller game can see one out in the plains, and your job is to cross the plains/get the food or whatever somewhere in them, without being seen and run down by the carno. Using tall grass, small bushes, and so on to your advantage.

[jovial vessel]

I would very much like that

[dusky surge]

Flat, open, not covered in bushes and hills, actual plains, yea

[jovial vessel]

a headswing to the side would make sense for the direction of its eyebrow spurs too

[golden coral]

So a charge that is focused on improving turn radius and only providing knockdown would suit with that. If it also allows the carno to follow up. Could even mean the carno might have to knock something down twice to get the kill, allowing for the prey to possibly escape if it can juke the second time.

[golden coral]

How about charge just being a "run mode" and give it it's own attacks

[dusky surge]

i mean, i'd argue pressing shift and W should be the run mode

[golden coral]

You charge for improved speed/turn radius, then as you're charging, your normal attack is replaced by headswings

[golden coral]

Yes, but that'd be normal run for well, running in this case

[neon portal]

I disagree with it getting faster and also getting a better turn

[jovial vessel]

I dont think Carno should have a super good turn at speed, the dude is built very top heavy

[golden coral]

I guess you could think of it as the diablo sparring stance?

[golden coral]

Problem is, if you want it to hunt the small game, it needs it

Since the small game is agile

[dusky surge]

i mean, realistically, carno did actually have a horrible turn. Muscular-ass tail

[dusky surge]

I honestly feel with enough stamina (and good plains) it'd be fine.

[golden coral]

That's the reason for it. You can't have a small game predator that can't keep up with the small prey it's meant to hunt

[jovial vessel]

hence why having the speed boost to catch up, possibly headswing to stagger and then skid to a stop and go in for bites

[golden coral]

Not really, even in entirely open plains, with the old charge, preU6, you'd not hit anything that didn't let you

No amount of stamina would help that

[dusky surge]

The speed allows you to get right back behind the prey, and makes them have to account for their environment more, and generally focus on you. The turn radius isn't necessary if the stamina provides the pressure you need

[golden coral]

You need to reliably be able to hit, and if the charge doesn't do that, there's no reason to charge if you can just run normally anyway and try and catch the target

[neon portal]

if carno is fast with better use of charge and more stam out turning is going to be the only way for smaller things to escape, even if its damage is lower it won't matter because there wouldn't be able to do anythign to get away

[golden coral]

But then you'd need good turn radius while running normally if the charge is only meant for a catch up speed boost

And yes, out turning and escaping is how most smaller prey would handle it, but that can't be easy, otherwise the carno isn't a threat

Hence why the turn needs to be good enough to keep up and actually catch the target if it doesnt juke very well

[jovial vessel]

if that beast is going to turn fast, it would need to be skidding and drifting, its heavy and its built tall, its not made to turn fast and sharp

thats what utahs are for

[golden coral]

Prior patches, charge has been sufficiently easy to juke that you kind of have to let the carno hit you, hence why it was more or less just as well to just run after the prey. Unless you had a group that is.

The problem is the choice of targets

You need a way to make carno lethal to the targets its meant to hunt, and since most of them ae fast and agile, you need a counter to that

[neon portal]

If it's faster with more stam then you give it a charge that makes it faster with a better turn you've made this weird heavy thing a supersized raptor.

[golden coral]

Which tends to be, either similar agility and speed, or point blank ambushing, which well, no one seemed to like that carnos can charge from point blank

[golden coral]

Not really, omnis don't chase like that at all

They surround and attrition hunt slower prey than themselves

Bleeding them out over time and all that

[neon portal]

one of omnis biggest strengths is their agility it makes zero sense to give a larger heavier thing great agility while moving at top speeds, it doesn't need great agility to be a pursuit predator

[jovial vessel]

agree, at top speeds it would logically fall over

[golden coral]

Does it need as great agility as omni, no of course not. But it does need sufficient to actually catch the omni as it's trying to run away, no? If it's easy to juke a carno that sees you when you're in the open, why would you fear it?

[golden coral]

I mean, logically it'd break it's neck charging, omni would fall flat when it pounces, ptera would break it's jaws when it skims, and other funny stuff xD

The point is more so that being able to chase the target doesn't help if you can't land a hit on it

[keen plover]

Update 5 Carno agility was the best version of that. Enough to bite raptors that were staying close enough

[golden coral]

I'm not advocating for carno to have omni level of agility, I am advocating for it to have sufficient agility while charging to actually be able to reliably hit the target

[golden coral]

Maybe with normal run from what I recall, but not with the charge at the least

[jovial vessel]

charge should not have good agility, at all

[golden coral]

But it'd be fine if it applied to normal run if charge was just a speed boost instead, like what Wave seems to want

[keen plover]

The charge turn radius shouldn’t be touched. If it’s reliable against Omni, it’s deleting similar sized creatures

[golden coral]

Then why would you use it?

[keen plover]

Just buff the running turn radius

[neon portal]

and I'm aruging that giving it a better turn while its going faster doesn't make any sense

[golden coral]

I think U6 was fine, there were plenty of issues, but charge turn radius was not one of them

[golden coral]

It does if you consider what it needs to hunt and land hits on?

[keen plover]

The turn radius wasn’t tweaked, it was the acceleration

[neon portal]

why are you acting like carno can't hit anything? if we're talking 1v1 yeah dodging a carno as a omni is easy but how often do you see solo carnos? a group of utahs trying to run away from 3 or more carnos with better speed, large pool of stam and a good turn would be near impossible

[golden coral]

Pretty sure it was changed? You're saying carno still has the charge turn radius from U6?

[jovial vessel]

If carno is to remain the fastest playable in the roster, then it does not get to turn well either, bc that would make it overtuned. It should be able to run down prey and take them out that way. Carno can hit things fine, we've all experienced that

[keen plover]

Yes.

It doesn’t have the Insta charge

[jovial vessel]

insta charge was absolute bs

[golden coral]

Because that was the case back before U6, when it came to the charge. And I am counting 1v1 because thats how you balance. A single omni should stand almost no chance vs a single carno.

[dusky surge]

hey bird, you get in finally?

[keen plover]

😭

[dusky surge]

wow it seems we are doomed to suffer lol

[golden coral]

Well, that's fine. So basically, what it needs right now is A, maybe a slight lowering of the accel since it seems quite a bit, and B, less cost on startup/in general so it can be used to chase things, more or less?

[golden coral]

Yes and no, if you want to turn carno into an ambusher, it's vital. Otherwise, yes it's not needed at all :p

[jovial vessel]

1v1 isnt accurate to gameplay though, its rare to find solo anything and ofc its going to lose in solo

I dont want carno to be an ambusher though

[golden coral]

It's not the turn that makes it overtuned. It's the whole damage and effectives of charge on too large things that does it. So turn should still be good, there are other adjustments to do.

[golden coral]

That's still how you balance. You can't balance for groups, unless purely on the offense, and even then it's not ideal. But the issue with carno is far more on how effective the charge is damage wise, than it's turn, as well as that it can knock down far too large things.

[golden coral]

Didn't claim that. Just pointed out that for an ambusher, point blank attacks are vital.

[jovial vessel]

why not? Utah is arguably terrible solo against most things, its designed as a pack hunter after all. Why should its gameplay be balanced around how it does in a 1v1?

[golden coral]

That's cause most things are... well, designed to counter it :p

And because we're lacking most of the good targets from the roster

But it should still be balanced for 1v1, which means an omni has to be viable solo

It should not require a group to be viable, no more than carno should

[jovial vessel]

Im sorry but I cannot and will not agree that Carno should have a good turn radius and agility at top speeds, thats a terrible idea.

[keen plover]

Imo what Carno needs as a Carno main is:

A trot that is faster than Cera’s. Right now they’re both the exact same speed. 495cm/s

Buff to update 5 running turn radius.

Update 5 acceleration and activation time on charge with the current charge turn radius. With a slight decrease on charge activation cost

[golden coral]

Sounds good overall honestly. I'd also point out that most things need better trots in general

[neon portal]

if all you're taking into account is 1v1 you're going to continue to get bad match ups considering grouping is a big part of this game. 1v1 is important but when grouping is a big mechanic you also need to consider how a group effects things.

[golden coral]

Fair enough, I think you're just forgetting it's not just speed and turn radius that matters

[solar folio]

Shouldn't its damage be decreased if it's focused on small prey?

[golden coral]

And yet if you balance things for groups, you'll run into the issue of not finding people to play with, or have playables that require a group to be viable

Why the sentiment of "just herd up" isn't a good one as an answer to "how does stego survive rex"

[keen plover]

Carno is a punch down playable. It hunts things smaller than itself. Cera is small when compared to Carno for example

[jovial vessel]

Omni literally requires a group to be viable. Galli does as well, Teno needs a herd to be viable, carno does as well due to its current state

[golden coral]

No it does not. Omni can survive on it's own. Galli especially can. Teno, yeah it has it harsh and needs some help. Carno can, but it struggles more than it should.

You can be fine on your own as omni, and galli by all rights should not need any one else, considering it's speed and all

[jovial vessel]

Galli needs a group to activate its speed boost bro

[golden coral]

You don't need speed boost active to be viable, you know that right?

You can get diet boost for that matter, on your own I believe

Sure, you don't get the absolute max speed, but you're telling me galli needs that to survive threats?

[keen plover]

Yeah you can run around safe pretty much

[jovial vessel]

why have a grouping system at all in your logic then?

[golden coral]

Why not? You can do more in a group, you can have abilities that synergizes in groups, like galli, or omni/troodon

But that's not the same as saying they should require a group to be survivable, viable, and preferably fun

[jovial vessel]

so balance should not be based solely off 1v1, thats just silly

[golden coral]

If you want to run in a pair of omnis, you should be able to do that

[neon portal]

I didn't say you're balancing for groups I said you have to also consider them. Things should be capable of getting by solo obviously but if you overtune it for solo then as soon as its in a group (arguably a core mechanic of the game) it can easily become overpowered especially in the current state where there is nothing to stop a huge group of carnos or ceras from wiping everything on the map.

[golden coral]

Does it mean you won't be able to hunt most of your prey items, sure, you'll be missing out, but it's a choice

[golden coral]

That's more so because both carno and cera scales very well in groups with their abilities, which is something that can be adjusted

Aside from that, it's just a matter of how easy it is to sustain any group of anything

[golden coral]

No, no it's not silly at all. It's literally how it should and must be done to get proper balancing.

[neon portal]

adjusted... you mean like balance based on how well they function in a group?

[golden coral]

No, not balanced for a group. Adjusted for how an ability scales

That's not quite the same thing

[solar folio]

So this makes cera to demand a rework cause if I remember right it has same growth time as carno and it'll be just... Worse than carno? Because it's scavenging niche will be ruined, it can't push anybody away from corpse and can't escape from carno or give it a proper fight
Dunno still love both carno and cera but seems strange

[golden coral]

You adjust cerato vomit lock, it no longer scales in group, but you can still make cera quite the tough opponent on its own

The reason cerato scaled so fantastically was because of vomit lock

[jovial vessel]

agree with this, cera will lose its place soon

[golden coral]

Since you could just zerg rush the enemy

[jovial vessel]

vomit lock is being removed

[golden coral]

Same reason why carno charge scales so well in groups, because it's a lot harder to juke when there's five of them coming at you. This can be mitigated by adjusting how a mechanic work so it gains little, or more, from grouping

Based on if you want the critter to group or not

Look at omni vs deino. Omni scales quite well, deino does not scale at all

[jovial vessel]

deino decimates the roster hello?

[golden coral]

There's very little you need another deino for, to be perfectly viable. You grab something, you drown it. The other guy does... barely anything, and needs to do nothing to help you

You're entirely missing the point if you think that's what I was saying

[jovial vessel]

No you've completely lost me

[golden coral]

I'm talking about how well something scales in a group. That's not the same as balancing for 1v1 vs balancing for group. It's also not the same as how well a critter currently deals with the current roster or not.

[neon portal]

a larger group of ceras still gives access to more bacteria allowing to keep things sick so it's still going to scale quite well even without a vomit lock (which never should have been a thing to begin with)

[golden coral]

Yes of course it will, numbers always help. That goes for every playable, even stego. But that still means you can adjust how a mechanic scales, and why it scales good or bad. Compare charge with lunge.

[keen plover]

Honestly? Setting Cerato up as a Carno counter was a mistake. It’s slower, smaller and deals less damage. It’s fighting Carno in its preferred biome most of the time.

Spiro is a horrible map man. Idk what to say

I don’t think it needs a rework

[golden coral]

The point I'm making is that the issue with scaling in groups is not the same as balancing for a group, vs balancing for 1v1. As well as the fact that one way to limit groups is of course the amount of food and everything else, so you just can't sustain numbers above x or y if you don't want that to happen.

[keen plover]

We just need more biome variety and actual places where cerato can use its water kit without deino being a pest

[neon portal]

in terms of match ups cera should not be threatened by carno ESPECIALLY around a body

[keen plover]

It absolutely should

[golden coral]

I think it should, but it should be a fight carno might not want to take

If bacteria was more long term effects, it'd probably help

Especially if carno has an active life style so it can't take too much time to sit down and recover

[jovial vessel]

then cerato has no point in being the body bully its supposed to be if a carno can just, fight it off

[keen plover]

On a body sure

[jovial vessel]

so why have cera at all?

which is what kes literally said

[keen plover]

No

They said especially around a body

[jovial vessel]

which just basically implies the radius of a body buff

and a carno should not become the body bully that cera is supposed to fill

[keen plover]

“in terms of match ups cera should not be threatened by carno ESPECIALLY around a body”

That’s not what that says?

[jovial vessel]

so you need that to state: At a body site

and then you can make sense of it?

[solar folio]

I don't disagree, cerato should not be counter for carno, but imo carno also should not be cera-decimating machine it is now. Cera needs to protect a kill and be a thing carno just doesn't wanna mess with because price of victory can be too high. Another way I don't know what is cera supposed to be in current game state.

[neon portal]

I'm not saying cera should steam roll carno every time but Cera shouldn't be under constant threat of getting bulldozed by a carno which seems to be the general consensus at the moment since carnos are strong enough to face tank a cera

[keen plover]

No. It’s implying that even without a body, cerato shouldn’t be a matchup for Carno to take

^^^

[golden coral]

@jovial vesselOkay, let's try this. What I mean by "scaling" here is how well a mechanic benefits from another player using it at the same time/together with you. So if we look at two mechanics, charge and lunge.

Charge scales incredibly well, because the more numbers you have, the harder it is for the target to juke. On top of that, if you miss, the other guy might still hit, so it's overall a lot easier for your group to take on the target. Combine this with the amount of damage, and you get carnos being terrifying in groups. It's not a matter of speed/turn, it's a matter of numbers and attack vectors, plus the effective damage you inflict. The latter can be mitigated by adjusting damage and knockdown treshold, to limit carnos, even in numbers, from punching up so effectively, while still making a solo one a lethal threat to something sufficiently small.

Meanwhile, lunge benefits not at all from another deino. If I lunge a teno, you can't also lunge it. You don't need to lunge it, because if I have it, and I have full stam, it dies. End of story. So lunge does not scale at all. Deino is incredibly well designed for solitary hunts, due to how extremely effective lunge is as a kill confirm. Can you benefit from another deinos presence, sure, if you have less stam or you would be up against something that might have enough oxygen to outlast you once, but not both of you. But so far we don't have anything like that in the roster.

[keen plover]

In that case, Carno should be a threat

The smaller carnivore losing to the MUCH larger one in its preferred biome should be the case.

[golden coral]

With a sufficiently large body, cera should be a pain and a half to deal with at least

[solar folio]

Right, that's what I'm talking about

[golden coral]

But that would also require a bit of a fix to how the body buff thing scales :p

[jovial vessel]

and currently for carnos, ceratos arent hard to deal with around bodies - oh, sorry - on a body

[golden coral]

Also yeah, maybe going out into the plains to bully a carno isn't ideal for a cera, while it can bully others. But this might come down to roster issue/map issue as well.

[dusky surge]

it'd be fine if all activity wasn't forced to be plains-only on Spiro

[neon portal]

everyone is at least in agreement that Spiro sucks

[jovial vessel]

would also be good if players were encouraged to play a varied roster

[golden coral]

For example, if a carno killed something, an omni, but the omni fell near a treeline, that'd be good for a cera to bully

[keen plover]

That’s not what was stated bruh. And they are easy to deal with unless the cerato is incompetent

[golden coral]

If the omni fell in the middle of the open plains, perhaps not as much

Point here being that it's not just "body down" but also where

[dusky surge]

spiro not existing would help that by allowing more than one biome to be "viable"

[golden coral]

Same as why you don't make a kill next to a water source, because deinos xD

[neon portal]

wish i could avoid this but 50% of the time something (usually carnos) realise they're going to die and run to the nearest water so deinos get their body instead

[golden coral]

Too much water, and too much water deinos can be in, all around where people play :p

But if you dare say that we need water sources without deinos in them, the deinos get so upset :p

[jovial vessel]

spiro is built around a horrible river design

[golden coral]

Spiro is built around deino I'd say

[keen plover]

It literally is

[jovial vessel]

the fact spiro has stayed around this long is terrible on the devs part

[solar folio]

Lol true

[golden coral]

Also, did my essay help you out? Or are you still lost? :p

[keen plover]

They even cut the middle of center up as a Deino ‘buff’

[dusky surge]

i really do wonder if deinos will find a way to complain about Gateway making deino "underpowered" because 300 deinos cant exist in the same waterways anymore

[keen plover]

As long as Cerato and Teno can use water more comfortably, then I’m fine with Deino having it tough

[jovial vessel]

Ill be so glad to see less deinos

[neon portal]

I hate spiro so much, so much space that might as well not exist because no one goes there because funnily people actually like to see other players but because you want to see other players you're stuck in plains and surrounded by deino infested water

[golden coral]

I'm sure they will. Despite it apparently being proven they can still go to various lakes (but they might have to be solitary, no more chilling together)

[solar folio]

Nooooo my 50% deino server population xD

[jovial vessel]

we might actually see other dinos rather than all the deinos

[dusky surge]

God forbid the deinos bare witness to shallows being a thing that exists on Gateway. They'll boycot the devs

[neon portal]

drinking water is either - run really far to where no one is to drink or take the risk that you'll get chomped which because everyone is a croc is super high

[keen plover]

Shallows being common would be nice. Carno should be slowed down. Trot speed pretty much. Let Cera and teno run in shallow waters. Either full speed or a decent portion of their max speed.

[neon portal]

yeah cut centre in half and get rid of the shallows between centre and NW made me so frustrated

[solar folio]

The funny thing — you run really far to the place where literally no one's around and get jumpscared by croc

[dusky surge]

i'd rather teno be a good wader to cera

[jovial vessel]

same

[keen plover]

Fair. But I still think cera shouldn’t be too bad

Not like Carno for example

[jovial vessel]

give teno some water plants or something to graze on in shallows

[neon portal]

you're so right 😭 i hate crocs

[dusky surge]

Honestly, teno wader has become far more attractive than teno diver to me as of late

[keen plover]

Carno right now can run in shallow waters that cerato trots in. Pretty lame

[dusky surge]

We don't have enough wader reps, would mean sucho actually has a consistent prey item, and teno already performs exceptionally well in shallows given its current kit

[jovial vessel]

A diver herbi would be cool, but I dont think it should be teno. Para maybe?

[keen plover]

Why not let teno do it both

[neon portal]

would love to see teno wader honestly, would help it play a bit more defensively and would love to see terrain actually playing some importance

Terrain atm basically only matters in - proxmity to water (aka deino death) and if this hill is big enough i might break my leg

how does everyone feel about the mud btw? personally i miss being able to wallow by the water edge

[dusky surge]

Sure, but tenos kit is actually pretty bad for depths. I'm not against it getting like, a mutation that lets it dive, but I don't feel diving should be core to it given its current kit

[jovial vessel]

or the same rock copy pasted in here and there ig

I miss mud being more frequent, it lost its charm

[neon portal]

makes sense to me that at least some parts of the river bank would be muddy

[solar folio]

No I mean it's funny to feel danger knowing that deino can take you anytime you drink but the problem is that there are too much deinos

[keen plover]

Yeah. I’m all for variety regardless.

[keen plover]

To hide tracks 100%

[jovial vessel]

I feel like one of the hadrosaurs would be better for diving for plants, or sinking.... like a hippo lmao

[neon portal]

yeah like when deino first came out the fear of drinking was a good part of the game i think but now theres so many its less of a scary what if somethings lurking and more of a "there is definitely a croc in here"

[dusky surge]

wading, however, let me obliterate two ceratos in a fight as a solo teno, so I'm inclined to believe it's pretty benefitial for the animal

[keen plover]

Stopping blood was too easy though

[jovial vessel]

slowing blood could be good, rather than stopping it entirely

[keen plover]

It currently slows blood unless you’re sitting iirc, where it stops it completely

[jovial vessel]

yessss let teno be a beast in and around shallows

I wouldnt know, I never make it to the scattered pools of mud lmao

[neon portal]

I never felt it was too bad - you're at waters edge so crocs are a threat and wallowing is easily interruptible. Though I don't think 100% of the riverbank should be mud! just feel like mud at some parts of water edge makes more sense than a couple of randomly scattered pools of mud

[keen plover]

Eh. I remember fights where deinos never came. Things would camp rivers and win

[jovial vessel]

even if it became a shifting thing, like when weather and seasons come in, that locations of mud change or increase/decrease in relation to that, could be neat

[neon portal]

even if maybe because its not a POOL of mud its less effective - last less time/does worse job of stopping/slowing blood

[keen plover]

Now that I like

[jovial vessel]

so sometimes a river has mud, but if it gets used too much it dries up. If its pouring rain then theres a lot of mud around but if its sunny/dry season, there is very little mud

[keen plover]

I do think it shouldn’t be common. Really hurts bleeders if you can just stop their main tool

[neon portal]

i just feel with how scattered, weirdly placed and spread the mud pools are they rarely serve any purpose unless you happen to get into a fight near them

[jovial vessel]

Yeah they are... in weird places rn

[keen plover]

Agreed. More common, but not as common as river mud should be the go to lol

[jovial vessel]

having them along every water edge is not ideal bc yeah it takes away from bleeders but they should have more of them

[keen plover]

Anyone else find herbi gameplay depressing?

[neon portal]

Yeah I mostly play omni so I don't want there to be mud on every corner I just wish they made more sense and were maybe in better areas or even just a few more cause honestly playing as omni most of the time things can't do anything against the bleed

[jovial vessel]

yes

[neon portal]

Yes :(

[golden coral]

Elaborate?

[neon portal]

Herbis have always got the short end of the stick

[jovial vessel]

which sucks bc teno is my fave dino on the roster rn

[dusky surge]

i find herbi gameplay depressing because there's nowhere to go but goddamn centre plains

[jovial vessel]

or the edges of the map for food then rotate back to center

[keen plover]

I can’t play much of Teno anymore. You can’t max out diets. No overflows. Carnivores have much more ‘filling’ diet options like organs

[jovial vessel]

yes

YES !!! herbis need an "organ" option

[keen plover]

Herbis are constantly outnumbered and have been made worse

[jovial vessel]

and I did notice that teno was impossible to fill all its diet slots consistently

[dusky surge]

I'd like for low value and high value plants to exist

High value plants can be rarer and more shared amongst herbis, leading to competition

[keen plover]

I want herbis to be easier to maintain. Especially the smaller ones.

[jovial vessel]

more variety on a herbis diest roster like carnivores have

[dusky surge]

i.e. Bananas are high value, lots of herbis eat bananas, there's a single goddamn banana tree, FIGHT

KILL FOR BANANAS

[keen plover]

Yes. We need options lol

I can’t play teno for too long anymore. Constant back and forth

[solar folio]

Having fun as herbi only by baiting carnos as galli so they're trying to catch me and lose all their stam lol

[neon portal]

Personally I think kit wise teno is still really really cool but gets so many downfalls compared to carnivores - its a nightmare to fill and keep nutrition filled, there are far less herbi than carnivore players so herding (imo one of their highest appeals), food is often really far out in empty parts of map (spiro i hate you), constantly running into mega packs of carnivores, etc

[dusky surge]

Not even a herbi lol

[jovial vessel]

if I could eat one whole giant turnip say, and lock in an entire nutrient, i'd be thrilled

[dusky surge]

The only fun herbi isn't a herbi

Wonderous

[jovial vessel]

tenos tail slam should also do more dmg imo

[keen plover]

Carnivores are literally easier in comparison, which is horribly designed imo

[solar folio]

Ahah for real

[jovial vessel]

its so bad!!

let me at random, sometimes dig up a super potato or something when looking for potato roots

[neon portal]

Carnivores are easier to keep alive and fed, usually faster, often stronger and 90% of the time in far larger groups

[keen plover]

Yep

[jovial vessel]

its why everyone plays em

[keen plover]

I despise it. I want herbis to be the easier faction

[dusky surge]

Remove preferred diet, organ only (except for a few exceptions), let the carnivores scrounge for food

[keen plover]

Also reduce the amount of food organs give cause wtf

It feeds so many things

Megapacking has never been easier

[jovial vessel]

this is a good point yeah

[solar folio]

To be honest I play as herbis sometimes just because I want to make more herbis on server instead of overpopulating it as anothe carni

[jovial vessel]

same six

[keen plover]

I love teno and pachy

But man

[neon portal]

at very least they need to help herbis in terms of nutrition and food. One organ fills all my nurtiants and stomach as an omni but I'm lucky to be able to fill one nutrient with a third empty stomach as a teno because my stomach goes up a lot faster than the nutrient does

[dusky surge]

Ceratos could eat bones or get nutrition from any meat (being a mighty scavenger, it shouldn't rely on the "first come first serve" nutrients), pteras/suchos/other piscivores should recieve nutrients from fish, ovi/galli should recieve nutrients from eggs, so on

but otherwise, remove diet stuff like that and focus entirely on organs

[neon portal]

Teno is still my fav by far but poor guy has it hard 😭

Galli is my kill as many carnivore babies as I can to keep population down dino

[solar folio]

Yep also noticed I couldn't fill third nutrient slot as galli
Skill issues may be dunno

[keen plover]

You can have organs be nutritious, but reduce the food loool. Feeding 2 carnos off an Omni body is crazy

[keen plover]

I agree on this point.

[jovial vessel]

ceratos need to be encouraged to eat the bones and rotted gross stuff more yeah

[keen plover]

Micromanagement has ruined the game. “If I fill up too much, I can’t get diets”

[dusky surge]

Oh, and also, make nutrient drain speed up when hungry and slow down when full, encouraging you to keep a full stomach (and not punishing you for filling up with "junk" food)

[jovial vessel]

that could work well

[solar folio]

Yep now looks like cera gets some nutrients from bones but in ridiculous amounts like 2-3%

[jovial vessel]

alright fellas its 3am here, I need sleep, good chat tho 😴

[solar folio]

Good night

[dusky surge]

Here's how I'd want a hunt to go:

• Spot potential prey
• Discuss risks of attacking prey
• Go for it
• Kill prey
• Eat organs to acquire nutrients
• Eat body to fill stomach
• Live off body for a long while because you slow nutrient drain with a full stomach
• Less pressure to constantly kill things/more rewards for killing things/less reward for finding a random abandoned teno corpse

Requires actual activity from the carnivore god forbid

[solar folio]

Sounds great
Still don't know how it would be working in real game but sounds like good enough

[dusky surge]

Oh, and most importantly, AI is no longer nutrition, it's food, which slows down nutrient drain, keeping AI relevant in nutrient stuff, but no more of this "AFK grow off 3 boars" nonsense

You know how HARD it'd be to grow a rex having to rely on organs

Good

Oh, also, caveat, I WOULD have it that all juvis start with 50% of their stomach filled and 2 different nutrient slots filled, not one, because they deserve a little kindness while growing

[solar folio]

Yep, probably increase the amount of AIs but no nutrients from them
Just keeping you alive if there are no players nearby but you are debuffed af without nutrients
Probably small things like omnis and troos still can get nutrients from AIs but rexes and others definitely shouldn't

[dusky surge]

That's fine tbh

[solar folio]

Yes, because current situation "you spawn not in center = you die of starvation" is terrible

As freshspawn you almost don't have time to find prey lol

[fallow blaze]

what do you think about the pachy in update 6.5.
I haven't seen any since the update. neither on official servers nor on private servers.

I tried it out with friends. It's harder with him now. But that doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. that's what survival is all about.
but I can't tell if it's perfectly balanced by playing 1x now. what do you think / what was your experience?

I only heard the word glass cannon. just like the Troodon (not my experience).

[tall bronze]

Pachy so far isn't really doing so well. Cerato can demolish one which would be okay if Pachy could either run away from it or break it's leg and run.....except neither work. Cerato has fracture resistance for some reason and has plenty of stamina to run down a Pachy over time. Pachy's loss of stuns, while good for the most part, now means that headbutting something can leave it vulnerable to attack.

So summed up, it needs some love <:/ Both directly and indirectly.

[fallow blaze]

Thank you.
Yes, we noticed that with pachy vs Cerato too 😄
without his stun you have to play completely differently and it's very difficult to shake off the Cerato.

I like that the Pachy loses against the Cerato.
there are 500kg vs 1,300kg fighting <- I think

but yes: the Pachy and Cerato can definitely get more love. whatever it may look like.
Agreed

[neon portal]

I don't see an issue with a pachy losing to cerato but being unable to escape or fight is the problem, if it can't fight it needs to be able to run. Personally I think stun should be brought back for when it actually gets a fracture so theres at least a chance for it

[dusky surge]

issue with that is the afformentioned fracture resist

cera can just tank these attacks

[keen plover]

Cerato should take 2 hits to head fracture, but 1 hit to body fracture

[dusky surge]

honestly i'd be happy to just see pachy be faster/have more stam in general

makes it better at bullying small tiers if it runs at omnis with speed, rage and vindiction

[fallow blaze]

what do you think about troodon.
someone told me yesterday
he grows too long for dying too fast.

[keen plover]

How much faster 🤔

I wouldn't be against a speed boost anyways

Running near sub teno speed would be nice

43 - 44km/h

[dusky surge]

Anywhere between 1-2km/hr would be fine

[dusky surge]

I find Troodon growth to really be a non-issue. They have very easy diet options (compy is literally a godsend), basically any corpse provides plentiful food for their tiny size, and they are capable of punching up more than any other animal in the roster.

Their greatest weakness is the current issue where alt-bites kill you for successfully latching onto an animal, rendering them useless

You can't make Troodon tanky without contradicting part of its entire playstyle

They have speed, damage, stealth, excellent endurance, night vision, and no real weakpoints beyond solo hunting things and their squishiness

Even Troodon's trot and swim speed are good, which go a great distance in providing options and QoL for an animal

And they are literally the hardest animal to track in the game, bar hypsi, because they literally vanish into grass

[fallow blaze]

@dusky surge
Thank you for sharing your thoughts/experiences😁

[keen plover]

I think they should be faster than Omni

I was against it before, but I can think of no reason why they need to be slower

I guess Dryo, but I also think Dryo needs more love anyways

[tall bronze]

Really aside from the alt-bite issue which is a more generic problem, I'd say Troodon's biggest problem is simply it's camera, which is also kind of a generic problem that could be dealt with for several things. I get that the devs wanted to decrease camera FoV for immersion/encouraging paying more attention.....but is it REALLY worth it for such small animals who can barely see above the grass or otherwise just have uncomfortable views?

Like c'mon, man

And don't even try that "uh well see it grows so fast sooooo not a problem" excuse on me 🫵

[keen plover]

That's a horrible take

If anyone genuinely says that

[tall bronze]

[dusky surge]

IDK, I find their agility and size make it really easy to lose omnis

[keen plover]

It's not about losing Omni's. I want groups to pressure solitary small tiers better. Not to mention their sub stages which are even faster

[dusky surge]

Issue with that is most of our small tiers are pretty much geared up to kick Troodons brains in

We have the competent small-game hunter solo omni, the "if you are smaller than me I will end you very quickly" pachy and the "kicks small things for fun" galli

Honestly, Troodon would probably do better hunting dilos than most other smalls

[keen plover]

The other ones also have counters

Austro via water

Minmi via venom resistance and armour + water.

Herrera via climbing.

There's a few that also have other counters .

Mono & Rugops is potential food, but??

I just want it to deal with the ones we have right now.

I do think a solo Omni should struggle since it will also eventually be able to 'climb'

It's not like it would be over for them either

Just give Troodon the speed advantage imo

[dusky surge]

Most pounce type animals have the ironic situation where they have an inverse bell curve, where they're effective against small things, then drop off as things get bigger, then become better again once they're much larger

[slim dragon]

Troodon can literally kill stegos
Why does it need to be inescapable from small tiers as well ?

[keen plover]

For now

[slim dragon]

wdym for now ?

[keen plover]

It might change whenever stego gets additions to its kit. But even then, it's not like a Troodon pack can confidently hunt stego either

[dusky surge]

its actually pretty good

[keen plover]

Maybe. I've never really had to worry about them.

As anything pretty much

Not like Stego will be on officials to even care about.

It's just there

[slim dragon]

It still means everything from the range of omni to stego is potential prey for troodon
Meaning maia, para, diablo, theri, sucho(maybe not that much since it's aquatic), allo, alberto, magy, proto, ava, and all the others

[keen plover]

Solo ones. Relying on hunting huge creatures is a mistake imo

Let it also hunt the smaller ones

[slim dragon]

It can also hunt the smaller ones
But they have a chance to escape

[keen plover]

They will still be able to.

Also defend themselves

[slim dragon]

How do you escape or fight 8 troodons when you're slower and alone ?

[keen plover]

I'm not asking for a huge difference in speed. Forests pretty much counter Troodons

[keen plover]

Climb a rock and play defensive. Run into a forest.

It's like how 8 omnis see a creature like Teno, it dies.

Well not the running into the forest part

but with Troodon specifically it works well

[slim dragon]

I still don't see a reason for a bonus in speed for troodon
They're perfectly viable without it, and may even be overperforming once alt-attacks no longer annihilate them when they're pounced

[keen plover]

They're only performing because other creatures have been gimped as well

When Pachy could run and alt attack it was pretty simple to destroy them

[dusky surge]

I'd honestly prefer either superior tracking or NV

[keen plover]

Omni was a different story though. It was still possible

[dusky surge]

I don't really see the functional need for more mobility

[slim dragon]

So.... don't change the "gimped" other creatures and buff troodon ? I fail to see the logic here

[keen plover]

Simple? Have the speed advantage over one of the most common and popular carnivore in the game.

So that you can actually have a viable source in a pack

[dusky surge]

It already has like, stealth and agility though

[keen plover]

That doesn't help it hunt it

[slim dragon]

I already mentioned a lot of viable food sources

[keen plover]

Like?

[dusky surge]

Wouldn't it benefit more from being able to track things in the dark?

[keen plover]

Stego?

[slim dragon]

Accept that every dino has a few bad matchups in the game...

In the current game ? There's also teno, pachy, dryo and hypsi
And cera without the alt attack bug

[dusky surge]

Like honestly, I'd argue the worst part about Troodon is not the stats itself but it feels really underwhelming at night

[keen plover]

I don't even consider Dryo and Hypsi a part of the game. Literally have seen a handful this update. Personal opinion on that.

Pachy is rare. but fair. It's a source.

Teno is probably a prime target

Cerato is also a great one

[dusky surge]

Like I feel as if it should be much harder to fight after dark than it is.

• Its NV barely feels outstanding, the fact that it already isn't that great at locating distant prey in the dark is concerning
• It can't track well once things enter forests
• Most creatures have NV ranges that essentially make it that the darkness provides no real defence for Troodon

[keen plover]

I still think that 'boss' fights shouldn't be so common. Omni can also pack up to negate Troodon's. I don't see the issue in them pressuring one via speed

[dusky surge]

The "highlight dino" feature does help with night hunts, but barely

[slim dragon]

You say that like they can't already pressure a solo omni

[keen plover]

They can't

What Omni dies to a Troodon

[slim dragon]

Not having a 100% success rate doesn't mean "can't do anything against it"

[keen plover]

How are you killing an Omni though.

It's so easy to just run away especially with the current diets

[slim dragon]

Even then, it leaves 4 things in the entire game troodon can't reasonably kill
Deino, omni, ptera and carno (and with carno I'm not even sure since it has such poor stam)
For a 60kg creature
Isn't that enough ??

[keen plover]

Omni should be a target. Solo ones imo. I guess you don't think that but

[slim dragon]

Give me one reason

[dusky surge]

I still think increasing mobility helps more in fleeing omni, not fighting it

Again, I stand by incorperating night further into its fight plan so it has some level of advantage in the dark against an omni

[keen plover]

Simple. It will eventually have counters (climbing). Common creature. Something that Dryo and Hypsi aren't. While also not having a high HP so groups can drop one pretty quickly if played right.

[dusky surge]

Reduction of NV range would def help, making it tougher for omnis to constantly track and alt-bite you to death

[keen plover]

It would yeah

[slim dragon]

Omni climbing is still uncertain
And if it has it, troodon might be able to climb too...

[dusky surge]

Genuinely just make Troodon more about night-based hunting, I legitimately feel this is its most underutilised element

[dusky surge]

If Omni can climb, Troo def should

[thin mantle]

Another issue with the way NV is currently set up is that providing nocturnal animals with uniquely effective benefits in regards to sight sorta necessarily comes at the cost of making the game unbearable to play for everything else

[dusky surge]

I mean, a decent way to do it is make NV generally fine, and only weakened by said nocturnals, thus it's not a nuisance while travelling

[thin mantle]

As if I needed more reasons to log when the sun went down

[keen plover]

Fair. We know Omni can potentially but that's about it. I do think Troodon should??? But either way, I guess it's just personal opinion.

[dusky surge]

I personally don't get the hate for night, I don't believe the NV will remain this way forever since we have its finalisation soon to come

If they just make it like that old NV with colour, I'm good

IDK where the hell the image is but

[thin mantle]

For me it borderline negates any graphical qualities the game has during the day, like night for me is genuinely ugly af

That's the primary reason, just actively makes me want to play a different game

[dusky surge]

Which is why I like the older one Dondi showed on stream

It has colour and genuinely looks awesome

[thin mantle]

It's also sight ranged based instead of anything actually interesting

Which I don't think I'll ever not think is bad

[dusky surge]

I mean, if it wasn't range based, it really doesn't... serve much of a point

Like everyone can see everything from the same distance

[thin mantle]

Or just make it LOS based with light sources

So there's literally any ounce of environmental engagement with it

[dusky surge]

I mean that's essentially what they already have with current night, plains are better lit while forests are black as hell

[thin mantle]

Nah that's not how NV works, that's how nighttime shaders work

And I'd still say it's underwhelming

NV is still just a visibility cone

And even in the open plains if you lack NV you'll miss a LOT

[dusky surge]

I mean if they incorporated moon cycles which made it darker on certain nights, I'd be happy with that

[thin mantle]

God if it ever got darker than it is now...

[dusky surge]

Although I personally believe if it's a pitch black, moonless night, you shouldn't really be seeing much outside of the range

[thin mantle]

I don't even think that should exist

[dusky surge]

I really do feel that your ideal NV really is just U4 nights

Which is day but like... Different colour and 12% darker

I personally enjoy the nights

[thin mantle]

I mean, at least it was fun to play at night

[dusky surge]

If the NV wasn't glaring white, I'd think they're great

[thin mantle]

It's not ideal but certainly better than what we have now

[dusky surge]

found it

this NV is the stuff I like

[thin mantle]

Yeah that's definitely better

Still pretty lame but better

[dusky surge]

I personally feel limited visibility is pretty important to making nocturnals (and night as a whole) remotely relevant as a mechanic

otherwise it's a reskin of day, and nocturnals really don't have anything interesting about them besides flavour text

[thin mantle]

Sounds better tbh

[dusky surge]

I also legitimately enjoy the horror element. NV to me is comparable to a lantern

Also I want humans to feel lost and afraid in the dark, and use flashlights that can reveal them to hostile entities

[keen plover]

Yeah that's what we need

We now have larger ranges tbf

My one issue before as well was that it felt too dark

But overall, I like the look

[thin mantle]

Yeah that looks too dark

But it's better

[solar folio]

Carno is killable enough with troo coz troos' trot is fast enough
It can just outstam carno using footprints tracking, I tried it and for me it's working
Another thing carno isn't in troo's diet lol

Omnis are quite hard to deal with as troo but I think it really should be this way

[dusky surge]

TBF, carno's trot is just pathetic for the niche it has (or should have)

It trots as fast as the slower, smaller and fatter cera

Carno is like 50% legs lol this thing should be trotting with good pace

[pine pelican]

I have now. I put in vids, to see what I'm talking about. :[

#videos-and-streams message

“Consistently”.

[pine pelican]

I love how that looks. Natural.

[unborn iris]

Are people actually losing carnos to ceras? People with thumbs and half a clue about stamina management.

[keen plover]

<@&401466542140817419>

<@&933486433342222376> *

[dusky surge]

im not sure this is balance feedback

[dawn falcon]

This but combined with the first reiteration of NV with the color clarity

[meager oriole]

@uncut trellis The other day I was killed by an Adult Cerato actually because of bleed

I technically died of dehydration, technically

But I would’ve died from bleed(I know water and hunger affect your bleed)

Vomit + Bleed is a dangerous combination

[supple sonnet]

Is it right that Cera is quicker as Teno in full sprint or did I just got killed by a hacker again?

[cosmic pelican]

Cera is slower by 0.1km/h, but can run down a teno thanks to its stam

Especially with all carbs diet

If it was faster then thats a hacker :/

[supple sonnet]

I was full stam , running full speed with nutrience stam buff and he got me after a few meters 🧐

[wild cove]

Sounds like a hacker, esp if there was distance between you two

[supple sonnet]

At least 2 Teno length

[slim dragon]

50 damage ptera

[dusky surge]

god i LOVE absurdly OP playables

[thin mantle]

It’s just funny to hear anyone even imply ptera struggles or “needs help”

It’s still the best animal in the game

Always has been

[tall bronze]

It probably comes from the peeps who think combat efficiency = good or not 😛

[thin mantle]

I mean, in some cases that's true

It just applies case by case per animal

[tall bronze]

I'm more so referring to those that care nothing for survival, just fight. Like sure, Ptera is the best at survival, but it can't fight so "bad".

I've seen it before and it's weird.

[tranquil pawn]

@vapid fable carno is a sprinter, it shouldn't have high stamina, you don't see cheetahs constantly running without getting tired.

[dusky surge]

the cheetah comparison remains bizarre. Cheetahs DO have more endurance than a carno, as well as the benefits of

• Better turning and agility
• Better stealth because they aren't 1.8 ton giant towering therapods
• Actually being able to survive on one meal of its preferred food, rather than having to constantly move from one meal to the next

Given the carnotaurus can't be given stealth without being made smaller (or not being put in the least stealth-oriented biome on the map), and turning/agility don't fit much with its gameplay and rl counterparts, why not let it actually have endurance

[tranquil pawn]

Fair points, but then you'd run the risk of it outrunning and outstamming everything else in the game, you can only evade for so long without a single slip up, if carno had enough stamina to be in a long term chase, it would catch most players because it's faster and now doesn't have to be as careful with its stam. Now I'm not saying it should be lowered, in fact, it could do with a stam buff, but I don't think it would make sense for it to outstam something like cera

[dusky surge]

Well, yes, it shouldn't be outstamming cera, but it should at LEAST be outstamming stego, something it literally can't do atm

[tranquil pawn]

Oh yeah, definitely

[dusky surge]

The thing is, with Gateway, one could just run into the forest and the carno will have a considerably higher difficulty in actually continuing the hunt

[tranquil pawn]

Also true, I guess I wasn't factoring in gateway, which in hindsight I should've been doing

[dusky surge]

Spiro is not the map you want to base animal balance and playstyles off lol

[tranquil pawn]

The main point of my initial message was to correct the person saying it's meant to be the best 'runner'

[tranquil pawn]

[meager oriole]

Why has there been a sudden influx of people wanting to buff Pteranodon? Pteranodon is in a good position.

Pteranodon does what it's supposed to be doing right now, just it needs sprinting take off to be fixed.

[slim dragon]

Sprinting takeoff not working is fine since it shouldn't exist in the first place

[dusky surge]

thing on diet = i must hunt thing

even though omni has cera and deino for some outlandish reason

[cobalt dagger]

I think the only thing they need to do for ptera is somehow make its life less boring

I'm not sure how you would do that though

[slim dragon]

Same as with every other animal
Give them something to do other than fighting

[cobalt dagger]

True, I mean I enjoy running away from predators as an herbi myself, but some just don't even try when they think you have any chance of escape

Such that sometimes I spam calls and squawk to get something to chase me-

Nesting exists

In nature, reproduction is a huge priority for animals, some die for a chance to reproduce

I think it would be cool if there was some way to make a leader board of whoever has the most produced offspring

Get people competing to see who can have the most eggs or something

[main helm]

I think they said something like, doing certain things that you get a skin for it for some dinos

so that's probably one of those things, like producing offpsring

[slim dragon]

That's right
But nesting right now is both a real chore, and not very rewarding

Mutations may bring a big change in how things play out, and bring a lot more interest to the game

[main helm]

nesting is worse than normally spawning in, takes more time to grow

[slim dragon]

Some people say migrations will be good for having more things to do as well, although I kinda doubt it

[cobalt dagger]

Ohhh mutations sound awesome!

I think migrations would be neat too!

I kinda migrate around for some foods as herbi

[slim dragon]

Right now herbivore diets are a chore as well tho
What I hope is that migrations will make things a bit less tedious and more interactive

[cobalt dagger]

It would be cool if you got something for having multiple generations of nested dinos, like a family who has a white stripe on their tail or something?

[slim dragon]

Because go to place A>Eat plant>go to place B>Eat plant>Go to place C>Eat plant>Repeat gets old quick

[cobalt dagger]

I think that's a matter of personal preference, I currently enjoy herbi diet migration a lot, but I think that's because without it I'd just sit there.

Some animals migrate for water or to get away from the cold

Maybe it could rain in one spot and fill a lake but in another spot it doesn't rain and the water dries up so people have to move with the water?

[meager oriole]

Pteranodon plays how it’s pretty much supposed to now, it doesn’t need any changes.

I think Pteranodon suffers from map problems too, not gonna lie. Like most playables anyway… but flight is super environment dependent on your enjoyment of it.

[cobalt dagger]

I guess, also depends on what you think is fun. Technically, my fun comes from STRUGGLING TO SURVIVE and that's why deino, ptera and galli are boring for me XD

I enjoy baby stego but adult stego gets boring for me unless I'm helping another baby stego struggle to survive

I think having different dinos for different playstyles is good

Not everyone wants to STRUGGLE like me so maybe ptera doesn't need to fight to live

[slim dragon]

Yeah difficulty isn't really present in the game right now
The only difficulty is when one playable is OP

[cobalt dagger]

I was just thinking though

Some animals roll in mud to get rid of parasites, some animals rely on cleaner shrimp or little bird to remove parasites,

What if you had to 'clean' yourself now and again, as a way to make you move around and migrate?

Via rolling in mud or finding the dino-version of a cleaner shrimp

[slim dragon]

Sounds more like tedium than player agency

[cobalt dagger]

I suppose. I'm trying to think of ways to get people on their toes. Maybe not every playable needs to be on it's toes, though.

Personally though I like being 'busy', though I also enjoy nesting. Not everyone does, but I like it a lot!

[slim dragon]

I wouldn't call being dirty and needing to clean up getting players on their toes
An environmental hazard is good if it's something you can take into account and avoid, but if it's just "every X amount of time you need to do that or suffer debuffs" it's not great

[cobalt dagger]

We kinda already have 'do this thing every once in a while or debuff' with diets

[slim dragon]

(That's literally what happens with food and water, but in that case it's tolerable because it serves as a basis for player engagement, and not having them would make it... not a survival game)

But at least, diets also offer you ways of buffing your playable in order to suit the gameplay... which would work if there weren't

1. A completely meta diet that absolutely overshadows the others
2. Some diet elements being ridiculously easy to get and others being impossible for no real reason

Also the fact you get punished for filling up your stomach is... questionable to say the least, in terms of game design

[cobalt dagger]

If the need to clean up is somewhere away from other sources it could be something that keeps them on their toes, same for evironmental hazards like lightning forcing them into forest.

I know I play a lot of Don't Starve and it has a lot of tasks that some people consider 'tedious' that I really enjoy. But not everyone is me, and The Isle has a diverse playerbase. I really like the idea of different dinos having different playstyles, so that if you're like me and you wanna run around doing things people call 'tedious' that you call 'fun,' then there'd be a dino for people like me, and dinos for people who don't like that. This is somewhat the case as it is, as some dinos I enjoy more, and baby stego has a lot of running around to do - in some really dangerous places of the map (pumpkins always in dangerous places).

I think punish for filling stomach is because carnivores could overeat food sources to 'delete' them so no one else can have any. But Cera and Deino, who lack punishment, already do this sometimes.

It's true that diet acquisition is a bit off right now, PARTICULARLY for player-based diets - Some playable dinos are extremely uncommon, while others such as cera, are extremely common.

[slim dragon]

The problem with "being punished for filling your stomach" is that if your stomach is full, you can't fill your diets
And since diets decay is the same as food decay, if you're starving and take one bite of a food element that isn't on your diet, you're punished for the rest of your life

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah I've noticed that...

I've also noticed, the last 1% fills very slowly, you can actually get a little bit of extra diet - per food gain out of it if you manage it right. It takes a long while to catch up though.

So, you're not PERMANENTLY doomed but your diet IS messed up for a long time.

[slim dragon]

I play Don't Starve too, but at least in DS you get a huge progression curves
Every rock mined, every piece of wood gathered allows you to progress further into the game, so it's satisfying to get them
But in The Isle, the only progress you have is growing

[unborn iris]

Food decay is faster than nutrient.

[slim dragon]

So everything you do that doesn't serve in growing is wasted time
And that's why we need additional progression systems apart from growth, and why I'm looking forward to mutations

[cobalt dagger]

This is true, and it's part of why I like baby stego - I do the work of collecting all three nutrients, and I'm rewarded with faster growth.

I heard something about 'elders' and dying of old age that sounded good too

[slim dragon]

Yeah
Many people enjoy stego for the juvie phase, probably the only thing in the game to have actual difficulty (and then reward in the form of massive strength)
But the issue is, once you're adult stego, there's nothing to do out of your hard-earned strength
You could nest, but as I said earlier, nesting isn't really viable nor rewarding

[slim dragon]

Yeah
Basically makes it so players keep growing throughout their entire playthrough, so the main progression curve always remains relevant, and you always have something to lose

[cobalt dagger]

Or just help other baby stegos - If the predator is on them, and you hit, they both die. There's a bit of mind games with you and the predator, trying to keep yourself between them and the baby, turning and changing directions and stuff.

I find it fun at least.

[slim dragon]

That is also one of the reasons players aren't "on their toes" enough
You don't have much to lsoe if you die in The Isle except, again, if you're playing stego (or deino but since deino is much easier to grow it's still less punishing)

[cobalt dagger]

This is true

I've gotta brb

[slim dragon]

But now, if you're trying to grow an omni into a perfect elder, which will give you rewards once you die, you're gonna try to avoid dying at all costs, even as an adult

[cobalt dagger]

Might be back later so my next response gonna be late

[slim dragon]

Depending on how late you come back, I might be asleep 🙃

[cobalt dagger]

K I can respond a bit real quick- I mean I personally don't mind talking again next morning or whenever too! ^^

But yeah the elder thing sounds great, I really like having a reason to not die/being rewarded for doing the work of not dying

I think having more incentive to nest would be cool too, because nesting is one way to get players to work together and to help their own species too

I am not entirely sure how one would give that incentive though, for right now all I can think of is maybe giving a leaderboard so people can 'compete' with it a little, given how much people on The Isle love to compete and all that.

[slim dragon]

Yeah no... a leaderbounds doesn't sound like a good idea at all imo. It detracts from the real survival aspect of the game, and also encourage unneeded toxicity and meaningless killing
Imagine some players ganging up to kill someone else of their species just because they survived for long
Or worse, playing the game just for fun but you end up getting killed because you stayed alive for too long
And if it calculates amount of food eaten, or kills earned, or even babies nested, it's even worse because it encourages players to engage in those in absolutely ridiculous amounts
If you do so much as add a "babies nested in" counter in character menu, I can guarantee people will spam nests without caring for the babies, just to get those sweet numbers up

[cobalt dagger]

Maybe babies to adulthood, I agree we don't want leaderboards for kills though. Only for babies.

'Or worse, playing the game just for fun but you end up getting killed because you stayed alive for too long' - Doesn't that happen with an elder system too?... They could see you're an elder and want to kill you before old age does.

Even if someone doesn't care for the babies though, you don't have to spawn in as an egg.

[dusky surge]

nesting and mutations are said to be rather linked

so it will have legitimate mechanical value

[cobalt dagger]

It already happens anyway- I spawned in as a baby galli and another hatchling killed others, then the parents thought it was me and killed me.

Baby mistreatment is already an issue, I guess.

[dusky surge]

also, those spawned in via egg are untrackable to the humans, at least as the devs said a while ago

[cobalt dagger]

Ohh, interesting

What does that mean for the gameplay? Or is it just cosmetic on your menu?

[stark knoll]

It's possible humans might be able to track dinos using a device of some sort, but that's all speculation

[dusky surge]

i believe it was said that nested animals wouldn't have this issue, if it were to be a thing

[stark knoll]

The un-trackability (thats not a word) might be more of a lore tidbit

Since imo it would kinda suck if being nested in meant you couldn't see your own coords, but that doesn't have to be a thing

[cobalt dagger]

OHHH like the humans as characters- I thought you meant my stats where it has all my info when I press tab XD

Yeah that did seem awful, to not see my coords or something, though admittedly I run around by memory anyway...

I'm more concerned about not seeing my hp or exact nutrient values