balance-feedback-discussion

[jovial vessel]

theres planned dinos to come for sure, quite a few have been confirmed and what we have now is a small portion of the roster

[rustic rock]

why did they decide to abandon the legacy version?

[hollow canyon]

that's legacy

[rustic rock]

got it, so where do i find Evrima wiki / info?

[hollow canyon]

it was coded by the creator of Path of Titans who used to be the lead programmer for TI and he just so happened not to keep very good notes on his code so it effectively became un-workable for other programmers

[neon portal]

i don't know if i could list all the reasons... it was broken to being beyond saving is probably the easiest way to put it - no such thing as multiple attacks there was bite and thats it, it was spam bite to death, most of the dinosaurs were useless, a good 50% of the server was probably playing 4 of the options at any given time (Rex, Giga, Trike, Allo) - rex did bone break with a bite if it didnt insta kill you and its bite radius extended out an extra foot on the right side... honestly I can't even list everything it was a mess - fun for sure but a mess

☝️ add that to the list of issues i can't even start to write down and you had an unfixable mess

[south sandal]

Does anyone else’s keys just stop randomly working in game some times when you typing

[rustic rock]

Got it, so it was a long-term development cycle on how to make a dinosaur game fun and not miserable.. IE Evrima is born from the fiery hell of Legacy.

[hollow canyon]

it was unfixable because if you don't know what you're working with it's just impossible to do it. That's why keeping a good sort of file of what's going on is so important really in any work but especially in programming.

[neon portal]

Yeah! So ended up being best to start over and honestly despite some of its issues evrima gameplay is a lot more engaging - legacy didn't even have things like going under water

[rustic rock]

Yeah, I really enjoy Evrima, having a great time playing the game. I personally would to see more immersion in the game. But overall I've been into the game non-stop since I purchased 4 days ago.. It's been a blast, but through playing I've found some things I don't enjoy. I've already shared my gripes and concerns with deino, but beyond gameplay, I think the sound design could use a bit of tweaking (small stuff) and the environment interactions could use to more depth, like actually moving through brush and what not, maybe larger dino's crashing into trees if they sprint through the forest, which would give smaller dino's an environmental bonus. The UI could use a refresh, feels tacky personally, something more seemless, as well making it obvious when a dino is low hydration or starving so you as a player could take advantage of this.. wait out that dinosaur until they NEED to eat or drink, etc etc. last thing, it would be cool to mark territory and place "markers" as an omni raptor, peeing on trees etc etc.

also where's defecation, speaking of marking territory.

[neon portal]

Yeah a lot of it is going to get brought in! Theres footage if you go looking things like rexes will push down small trees when walking through foliage and a lot of the immersion things will come in over time - check out the roadmap if you haven't already things like weather will add a lot more lacking things is sometimes just the down side of playing a game in slow development

[rustic rock]

very cool, I saw the living road map video, but it wasn't well explained, just bullet points and broad stuff, nothing related to what you mentioned, where did you hear this? could you link me please?

[neon portal]

yeah the roadmap is sadly not descriptive at all! 😭 Best bet is looking up 'the isle news' on youtube! You'll be able to find clips of dev streams and things they've said in discord basically helps to keep an eye on the things they don't share actively in here as well as reading through some of the dev blogs!

[jovial vessel]

I’m not around during stream times so yeah I get all my info from people who compile it on YouTube (bless them)

[rustic rock]

I was afraid of that, that's basically a way to avoid promises, well atleast we have some future development up ahead.. the rest is a pipe dream until it isn't. ( not holding my breath) former Star Citizen backer.. ruined me of all hope

[jovial vessel]

Yes :)

Updates for this game take a long time to come out too, things change in between…. It can be a mess

[rustic rock]

also, on an off topic, we need a damn server queue..

[jovial vessel]

Welcome to the isle!! Lmao

There is one! If the server is full

[rustic rock]

really? cause it never works for me then, I try to join it says it's full and disconnects me

[dusky surge]

i mean, the roadmap is very promising in terms of increasing the rate of updates

[jovial vessel]

So was the previous roadmap

I remain sceptical on the progress of this game since it’s track record is not great, I do not get my hopes up

[rustic rock]

good way to think, besides I have other games I'll play while I wait for it to update and come out with more content, etc etc.

[jovial vessel]

Exactly !!

[dusky surge]

the prior roadmap was very "lots of content in one big go", whereas now it's "lots of content spread over many minor updates"

[rustic rock]

I'm surprised there's not more progression involved in the game, like unlocking cool patterns for your dinos and different color palettes.. marks of distinction and other of the like. I heard about perks and mutations, sounds pretty awesome.

[jovial vessel]

You should check out path of titans! There’s lots of things to unlock there !

Lots of people here hate that game but it’s pretty decent

[rustic rock]

ugh.. an MMO.. I don't like that.

[jovial vessel]

Very fair!

[rustic rock]

I hope they make an out of game experience, The Isle could be sorta tarkov like if you think about it hard enough.. Like having a out of game hatchery or something like that, to use special eggs to hatch in a new server giving you new bonuses etc etc, idk I feel like that would make a long term gameplay loop for everyone beyond just growing and getting mutations for the game you are playing in the moment.

[rustic rock]

MMO's are designed to... eat away your life at grinding to the maximum level and gear only to then finally play the game.. beyond this it's a hollow experince (Ex- WOW player)

[jovial vessel]

I mean, you grow a dinosaur, you survive, there’s other dinosaurs… it’s very similar to the isle

[rustic rock]

I'll check it out, no worries, going to watch a video. appreciate the info

[jovial vessel]

The “quest” aspect is very…. Lacking it’s just fetch quests tbh, and exp grows ur dino to max

[dusky surge]

based on what I've seen of PoT, it's similar in terms of having dinosaurs

[jovial vessel]

All good!

[dusky surge]

and that's it

like, PoT lacks a lot of what makes The Isle so special imho

[jovial vessel]

PoT has a large roster tho

Which the isle lacks

[dusky surge]

a larger roster of samesy animals isn't very impressive to me

[jovial vessel]

Updates often too

[neon portal]

I think I remember mention at one point of unlocking skin patterns through certain stuff? But that was ages ago so prob scrapped

[dusky surge]

like "large roster" really isn't a selling point if the roster itself has very cookie-cutter, generic animals

[rustic rock]

In The Isle, what would be neat for me as a player, would be something beyond the experience of eating growing fighting... making babies, dieing and repeating, but something that has the player going in for a larger reason, like a out of game hatchery or techtree.. etc etc, something that makes me want to go through that whole loop and experience again with my (insert dino here)

[jovial vessel]

Come back to me with this when the isle has its projected massive theropod lineup

[dusky surge]

why?

[jovial vessel]

Bc that’s a roster of samesy animals

[dusky surge]

I don't care if The Isle's roster is small if the roster feels more unique from each other.

[rustic rock]

I agree, unique feeling creatures is what matters.

[dusky surge]

Based on how they managed to do the therapods so far, I have no doubts they'll be exceptionally unique

[jovial vessel]

More immersion would be sooo good for this game to gear it from pvp to survival but I think what you have here gives it too much of a story game design basis with a plot to follow

[rustic rock]

Honestly I think the development of this game on "content" is a bad thing because as long as the scope is unfinished, the experience will suffer.

[jovial vessel]

While I agree, I remain sceptical :>

[neon portal]

Based of having actually played both games they’re similar in a lot of ways - based around growing dinosaurs, fighting other dinosaurs, etc - differences mostly come from mechanics eg getting abilities as you grow, unlocking stuff etc. I prefer the isle but they are basically different versions of the same thing

[rustic rock]

How does it have a story or plot to follow? I'm confused.

[dusky surge]

considering they made a generic-ass therapod like cera actually one of the most unique animals in the game is proof they can do it

PoT cerato, I can't even tell you what the hell that thing is like because it's exactly that, a generic therapod

[rustic rock]

Like there's some background info on The Isle, but there aint a linear progression in the game or quests or NPCs to talk to etc etc, pretty far from a story or plot if you ask me.

[neon portal]

Having seen the trend for development of this game I’ll never get my hopes up for any consistency but at very least it’s fun dinosaur sim

[unborn iris]

It's a pvp survival. You just said you don't like MMOs and you are suggesting most things that make a generic mmo.

[rustic rock]

Yeah, that's a game development problem though, all games these days are plagued with failed expectations etc etc.

[rustic rock]

Suggesting a out of game loop is making an MMO?

[jovial vessel]

Survival is the gameplay of the isle

[unborn iris]

I'm not saying it's a bad suggestion.

[jovial vessel]

Growing, surviving, dying, starting over

[unborn iris]

But at its base it is just a survival game. And what it does it actually does very well. So it is a good sign for when they plan on actually adding stuff like that to give it more depth and a gameplay loop.

[rustic rock]

right, but if you could walk away with something when you invest 5 to 6 hrs in total and experience that gameplay loop, would said thing you walk away with be enticing? to me it could almost be anything, as long as it was something that brings me back to playing again.

[unborn iris]

But having to have some carrot on a stick to give motivation for wanting to grow and play your dinosaur would be bad. The experience should be enjoyable.

[jovial vessel]

So when you grow you get a reward for doing so? They have plans for that, at some point

[rustic rock]

I'm not saying it HAS to be a research tree or anything, but something outside of the survival experience to congratulate me for having gone through 6 hrs of play.

[unborn iris]

Not saying you couldn't have the carrot on a stick, just that it shouldn't be the bandaid to cover bad gameplay.

Like... PoT

[jovial vessel]

PoT is defo lacking

But I do enjoy the diversity in the models/subspecies/skins

[dusky surge]

elders + mutations is essentially that

[rustic rock]

no man, just like ANYTHING, cosmetics, further story progression something fun, just not a grind fest. It's not mean't to punish you, it would be something outside of the META, like a souvenir idk anything

[unborn iris]

It's coming.

[jovial vessel]

“Soon”

[rustic rock]

Soon TM

[unborn iris]

Next few updates will be pretty gamechanging.

[neon portal]

Most games aren’t this long in development hell tho… it had progression to start then legacy now this… it released in 2015. tempered expectations are the way to go

[jovial vessel]

God I hope so

[rustic rock]

yeah, it's also a small studio and these people tbf are building a dino survival game, (pretty god damn unique) and although there are SOME survival games in gaming now, like tarkov and such, this one is even more unique then it, but I was suggesting earlier, like a "hideout" of sorts for your account how that benefits you or if it even does would be up in the air, but I feel something like that would create and incentivize people to replay the same dinos beyond just reexperiencing the playstyle.. it would push people to experiment new playstyles based on the requirements of a "acheivement" for example or some kind gained trait.. like how you mentioned mutations for example.

[dusky surge]

reminder that beipi has like 500 animations

[rustic rock]

that's insane.

[jovial vessel]

Where are you getting 500?

Yeah it has a lot, a LOT goes into making a model and animating it, I am well aware of that (I have a degree in this field) but that is a high number

[unborn iris]

And that's only scratching the surface. I still hope for a day where the isle is "finished" and full modding. Imagine some kind of Monster Hunter ripoff where you can play both sides. Human survival where you hunt dinos to craft gear and stuff or as a dino maybe getting stronger somehow by doing the same.

The possibilities are endless.

[rustic rock]

every game is different and their demands are unique, an FPS game will have certain requirements that an air simulation game would never think of doing because of the requirements needed.

[dusky surge]

one of the devs mentioned how many animations it has

[jovial vessel]

Oki

[rustic rock]

Yeah, but games today.. they never "finish" that's OG game development, they just keep that going, it's safer twhen you think about it.

they need to add Titanoboa cerrejonensis talk about unique

[solar meteor]

How can an omni pack take down a cera?

bleeding takes 20 years to do anything, and by then the cera has grouped up with 5 others

[slim dragon]

it can't

[keen plover]

💀 1 tweak and Cera is 'unviable'

[slim dragon]

I may want to try my hand at cera when it's no longer OP

[brave imp]

Cera has dynamic bleeding as it’s blood pool reduces under 50% you have to do damage then start pounding

[slim dragon]

I don't like playing OP things

[brave imp]

It’s not really overpowered it feels like it should’ve came out when allosaurus arrived

[solar meteor]

i think i'll just stay off of omni until cera is no longer 90% of servers

[brave imp]

Like it should’ve came later

[slim dragon]

Why does cera need allosaurus to be balanced ?

It is obviously overpowered when 2 of them can kill stegos without taking a single hit

[brave imp]

A single hit? That looks like a skill issue for stegos

[slim dragon]

vomitlock

[brave imp]

Vomitlock should be tweaked and which it should drain reserves faster

Coming from a cera main

[slim dragon]

vomitlock as a concept should have never existed

[brave imp]

It wansnt a concept it’s unintended feature of septic bite

[slim dragon]

That's not what I meant

[brave imp]

But I understand the point

[solar meteor]

isn't that what they fixed recently?

the vomit lock thing

[brave imp]

That it shouldn’t be this strong

They did so you can runaway

[slim dragon]

The point is that vomitlocking shouldn't be a thing at all

[solar meteor]

yeah they removed it no?

[brave imp]

The didn’t

[solar meteor]

wow

[brave imp]

They made it way easier to escape from it

[slim dragon]

Didn't test out the most recent update but that's what I heard ye

[brave imp]

Like carnos can’t just sprint out if vomited

Can*

[keen plover]

Alt bites cancel it, yeah

If you stand still and facetank with alt bites, you won't be vomit locked

[slim dragon]

So stego is still as helpless against cera ?

[keen plover]

Nope

[slim dragon]

It can jab ?

[brave imp]

No never was

[keen plover]

Stego can fight back weirdly enough

It was

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/778350416831709314/1124558049160474695/GIF_2023-6-29_8-25-35.gif

Can't do this anymore

[brave imp]

That’s what I said stegosaurus who died to vomit lick have a skill issue

With the hotfx

[slim dragon]

can't attack nor run
"Skill issue"

[brave imp]

With hotfix you can

I do agree that it needed to be balanced

[south sandal]

Do you see the clip above lol

[brave imp]

I did see

[south sandal]

Your literally locked wit throwing up n can’t move or swing

But it’s gone now

[brave imp]

I’m agreeing with the new changes

But should carnos stamina nerfs be reversed or nah

[solar meteor]

nah

they're good as is

[brave imp]

Why is that?

[south sandal]

Carnos should ambush

[solar meteor]

yeah

[south sandal]

Shouldn’t have a lot of stamina

[solar meteor]

they shouldn't have long lasting pools of stamina to grind away at things

[south sandal]

Especially running a 55kmh

[slim dragon]

Ah yes
The loud af, tall plains hunter should ambush

[solar meteor]

nerf cera is n.1 priority rn

[slim dragon]

Just like spino
Both are equally perfectly designed for the ambush playstyle

[brave imp]

If you want to nerf cera make it find rotting corpses to recover septic bite that’s it

So vomit locking is less viable and make it feel like a scavenger

[solar meteor]

or make septic only apply on a charged bite

[south sandal]

Also the body buff should only come from things they have killed I feel like

[slim dragon]

This completely defeats the point of cera being a scavenger

[solar meteor]

yeah that is too much

[south sandal]

That’s the thing people don’t scavenge tho

Only a few

They already got good Stam decent bite and once they around a body it’s over with

[slim dragon]

So since it doesn't work well as a scavenger, the solution is to make it even less of a scavenger and more of a generic theropod ?

Also the fact is not that it doesn't work well as a scav
It's that it works too well as a hunter

[south sandal]

That’s what I’m saying they too good

[solar meteor]

it does everything too well

tank, damage, run, grow

[south sandal]

And some of the body buffs are ridiculous

Like taking 50% less damage

[slim dragon]

They need nerfs, but NOT in what makes them a scavenger
Otherwise it's pointless

[south sandal]

Isn’t that a bit to much

[slim dragon]

Yes 50% is absurd

20% damage reduction is already a lot in most games

[south sandal]

Yeah true maybe less stamina or something idk how you really fix it

[brave imp]

Making it less viable as scan center defeats the whole point of cera

Scanvenger

The issue truely is the player base is making cera act like carno

If devs want to fix they should tweak cera to be more viable as scavenger

If you want to fix cera make it rely on bodies

[slim dragon]

It is perfectly viable as a scavenger
But it's also viable as a solo and pack hunter, as a brawler and even as an endurance hunter

[south sandal]

Or a face tank

[brave imp]

Cera should be a face tanking scavenger and a bloodhound

If you want to get rid of the stam

[south sandal]

Im pretty sure ceras can smell the furthest

[brave imp]

It should be with charge bite

[south sandal]

Like miles away

[brave imp]

Make it drain stamina but not when you’re walking so it’s strongest move isn’t viable in hunts

[south sandal]

Nothing stamina drains only when walking

Mostly running or using rmb attacks

[brave imp]

Yeah but the whole ecosystem will change when new playable arrive

[south sandal]

That’s the whole point

Ceras just changed the game when they were added

That’s All you see now is Ceras

[brave imp]

When dilos come out it will be the same

Just how the game is

[south sandal]

A dilo isn’t gonna be as good as cera

[brave imp]

A lot of people said that when they revealed cera

We don’t know until stress testing comes out

I get it ceras do need to be nerf but

[south sandal]

I would say the game is gonna change with a T. rex comes

Not a dilo

[brave imp]

Apexes are either gonna make or break the isle

[south sandal]

Cause instead of ceras bunch of rexes

[brave imp]

Yeah

But idk if T-Rex should be the first apex

[south sandal]

Me personally I would love to see the T. rex

[brave imp]

It looks cool

But a nightmare to balance

[south sandal]

But if it isn’t added right in game , it’s just gonna be a all out war

Just how it is now

With ceras

[brave imp]

Oh yeah this whole cera thing is going be a slight bump when Apex comes out

As a cera main both evirma and legacy I hope more scavengers are added

But I want spino to come to evirma and how it will interact with deinonychus

Deino

[south sandal]

Hopefully they are just as good

Or better , nothing rivals the deino right now and they don’t kill each other which equals the dumb over population

[brave imp]

I know this will be unpopular but 6.5 has been the most fun I ever had playing evirma

Cant wait to get flamed by this statement 😭😭:face_with_ra

[solar meteor]

ofc it is, you're maining the strongest land carni rn

[south sandal]

Cera mains b like

[brave imp]

Legacy cera was a train wreck lemme have some fun while I still have it

Cant wait for cera to be nerfed to the ground

[south sandal]

I can’t blame you tho you ain’t the only one who liked the op Dino’s that’s just how the game is

Strongest Dino = a lot of players on it

[brave imp]

Yeah but more playables= a more spread out playerbase especially when apex comes out

[solar meteor]

or so you think

everone wants to be the big baddy

[brave imp]

We all know everyone wants to be T-rex

[unborn iris]

There's no way you're that naive. Everyone will flock to the strongest.

But if they do it right they will all just cry about how hard said strongest dino is to grow.

People literally complain about deino.

[brave imp]

Yeah

[unborn iris]

Easiest dino in the game to play.

[solar meteor]

yeah, the strongest playables should be absolute hell to grow

which is why i hate how many "free grows" comm servers are going to get popular because of it

[brave imp]

Cera is strong due to only being 3 hour grow

[brave imp]

Yeah it defeats the purpose of the game

[unborn iris]

Cera is close to being in a good spot. I personally feel like current balance isn't too far from being pretty good.

[brave imp]

Few more tweaks

But tenos why they keep nerfing it???

I don’t get it Tenos are fun but dam I’m struggling to play it right now

[south sandal]

Reduce body effects on the cera and lower there stam a bit so they ain’t chasing things miles across the map

[keen plover]

Rather than lowering stamina, I'd rather they buff the other creatures

[south sandal]

That’s just makes everything worse

[keen plover]

Not really

[brave imp]

How so?

[south sandal]

The answer should never be to buff everything because something is too strong

[keen plover]

Stamina is already low across the board. I'd much rather things be able to run than have asthma

[south sandal]

Cera Stam is good what you mean

You can chase a carno down

[slim dragon]

That's how you make powercreep

[brave imp]

Why do games rework older characters

[slim dragon]

Stamina of dinos is fine, just wish trot speeds were faster across the board

[brave imp]

Cause of power creep

[keen plover]

If you're thinking of one area and not the whole. Carno running for 75 seconds for example would still be fine.

Yeah on Spiro where it's one big plains, it's an issue, but when things are more feature complete and we have true biome diversity stamina can be changed

[south sandal]

Carnos are meant to run in short burst like cheetahs they have high speeds but can’t maintain them for too long

[brave imp]

If you nerf cera mechanics to be scanveger then it defeats the point

[south sandal]

Defeats the point of what cera is literally supposed to be a scavenger

That’s why they get body buffs and etc

[brave imp]

Nerfing body buffs will make cera hunting problem grow worse

[keen plover]

I much prefer it when things can actually travel places without relying on mediocre trots

[slim dragon]

I don't like dinos sprinting everywhere all the time

[keen plover]

I'm not saying that should be the case.

There's a level in between

[brave imp]

Yeah

[slim dragon]

It's already kinda the case

[keen plover]

Well now it is with the 3 dot diet

[brave imp]

But they are going in the right direction with hot fixes

[keen plover]

Carno can actually move around. Who knew moving around would be fun

[south sandal]

Thats how the game is supposed to be played

[slim dragon]

People always sprint around, and they already did before diets
That's how it always has been in evrima
There is no point in trotting or walking

[keen plover]

Well yeah, trots are garbage

[slim dragon]

And believe it or not, but I find dinos constantly sprinting just to get from point A to point B to be quite immersion-breaking, and I don't want more of that.

Yeah, that's why I said trots should be made faster instead of run times longer

[keen plover]

Carno literally trots at the same speed as Cera for example, a huge downgrade from legacy

I doubt trots will be worked on any time soon

[slim dragon]

Some trots can't really be sped up tho
Like stego's

[keen plover]

If they want to at all

If they're willing to, sure. It would be great

[brave imp]

Yeah

[solar meteor]

it makes sense for tiny and small tiers, but medium and above i agree with you

[south sandal]

Anything raptor sized and below

[brave imp]

This game won’t be balanced no matter how many patches or changes

As there is so many mechanics now for each Dino that it’s impossible to make it fair for everything

[south sandal]

True no matter how many Dino’s they add I feel like once the big one comes that’s gonna be majority of the servers

[brave imp]

Yes but as said by devs if each Dino is able to find food, survive, fight or flight I think it would in a good place

[south sandal]

Same here

As long as people still play some smaller Dino’s and the map is spread out , like everyone isn’t in one place

Perfect for me , I love the game rn as well

Even tho everyone piled up at center

Or around it

[brave imp]

Just how it is 😅😅

[south sandal]

For pvp its good

As a survival game aspect not

[hollow ravine]

I think cerato and carno should be equal only because Cerato has the bacteria, without it, it's about the strength of something smaller than it

[rigid tulip]

I just died to a croc that was so small I could nearly one shot it as a beipi cause it just clicked right click repeatedly and I could not attack or move or even use the E button

[cosmic pelican]

Holding E doesnt work when a deino grabs you, the bucking is automatic

[rigid tulip]

what is even the point of the whole stamina battle when he can just avoid it by letting go and grabbing me again, which does extra damage anyways?

this was WELL on land, and he was at maximum 15%

I was 100

[south sandal]

its crazy how a fg carno goes down easier than a sub cera

[hollow canyon]

there's no stamina battle

[rigid tulip]

so what do u do? just die lmao? even if on land?

like ur telling me if they have low stam cause they burned it all and u made sure to keep it u die?

[hollow canyon]

it does nothing to you on land unless he lets you go

[rigid tulip]

so he can just stunlock me?

[hollow canyon]

they let you go when the stam runs out automatically

you can't do anything

[rigid tulip]

wonderful

[hollow canyon]

Deinosuchus is broken, water is wet

literally nothing new

also for the record a fresh spawn Deinosuchus is something like 240kg

so iirc over twice the size of a Beipi

if you approach Deino as any playable other than Stego you risk being deleted

[south sandal]

beipi can delete a fresh spawn deino

on land tho

ive done it many times also it depends on the player

[dusky cliff]

You wot. They're faster with a stronger bite force, an ability that actually does something, more stamina, more health

Idk what you even want man

[south sandal]

huh

a sub cera is not stronger than a fg carno

[dusky cliff]

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying

Because I thought you were arguing they were

Totally reads like it

[south sandal]

no im saying its easier to kill a fg carno

then a sub cera

[dusky cliff]

And that's sorta my point. What more do you want for carno

When they've got so many advantages

[south sandal]

Nothing

im saying the size difference

i was omni no way we should kill a fg carno easier than we can kill a cera

sub ^

[dusky cliff]

Skill issue probably, though if the cera was with another they get a 50% dmg reduc

[south sandal]

nah they jus tanks

they only get dmg reduce if they by a body

[dusky cliff]

Also worth noting their sub to adult is smaller than the uh

Carno one. 30% increase roughly

Vs. doubling

[south sandal]

still kinda strange tho

they do have high bleed resistance tho

tbh cera shouldnt even b on omni diet

[hollow canyon]

it's not a skill issue, Cerato has a significantly higher bleed resistance than an average playable

Carnotaurus is precisely the opposite - it has literally THE WORST bleed resistance in the game

[hollow canyon]

this is just dead wrong

Cerato's charged bite is the strongest attack in the game barring Stego and Deino, it has two different mechanics to itself one that makes it harder to kill near bodies and another one which allows it to make another animal lose loads of its nutrients and food

it has one of the best stamina pools in the game(obviously much better than Carno which has arguably the worst stamina pool in the game)

Carno has a marginally stronger bite but it's pathetic attack speed makes it have an inferior DPS to Ceratosaurus which actually outputs around 200+ more damage within a 10 second window due to attacking much faster, this is disregarding the special attacks.

Ceratosaurus is a better playable with many more tools and strong points in its arsenal compared to Carno which has a relatively high hp, is fast and has an ability that has a strong CC and a good damage output(still worse than Cerato's charged bite though)

[brave imp]

You can run away from a cera or spam charge the new hotfix cancels vomiting with alt attacks so cera cant even face tank without a body

[hollow canyon]

I don't think it was ever supposed to be facetanking

[brave imp]

It was?

[hollow canyon]

running away is questionable, Ceratos can keep up with it

they cover significantly more ground

[brave imp]

Yea I asked others on what they thought of this and said giving carno more stam will worsen the game balance

[hollow canyon]

Carno shouldn't get more stam on its own imo

every animal should have its runtime doubled

and some of them even tripled

that's not the same thing as stamina though

[brave imp]

You want running to be longer

[hollow canyon]

yea but the ability use the same

[brave imp]

So attacks still have stam drain I assume

[hollow canyon]

so e.g. you can charge with Carno as much as you can now

they do, and that's the same stam drain relatively to the whole pool of stamina as they do now

basically cut in half the running stamina cost on just about every animal

[brave imp]

I can see that but it should be with herbis not carnis

[hollow canyon]

I believe this should be done because traveling in this game is an utter chore

I don't see why it should be done with just one group

either all animals or none

I still remember the longer runtimes in the game

it actually felt much better with every animal I played back then

[brave imp]

Carnos with double stam will break the game im sorry

[hollow canyon]

and I played just about everything available at the time except Stego

[brave imp]

The fastest animal shouldn’t have good stamina

[jovial vessel]

fr

[hollow canyon]

lol - have you seen legacy Carno?

[jovial vessel]

this isnt legacy tho

[brave imp]

Yea

[hollow canyon]

that thing was the fastest animal and had one of the longest if not the longest runtime in the game

[jovial vessel]

play a utah if you wanna run fast for a longer time

[hollow canyon]

the issue with Carno isn't the running, it's the charge and that's why it should still drain the same stamina percentage

[brave imp]

This is evirma and we can’t balance it like legacy cause at his point it’s a different game

[hollow canyon]

there's no Utah, just Omni

it doesn't run for long either

their runtimes are absolutely pathetic

[brave imp]

Cera getting ragged around for balance is unfair since the new hotfix allowed carnos to bully them

As vomit locking can be canceled by alt attacks

[hollow canyon]

Cerato has been Carno's best match up since the stress test

[jovial vessel]

same diff, its utah to me still

[hollow canyon]

it will be always losing that fight

you just have to dodge the charge

besides the alt attack isn't the issue for Cerato

it dishes out far more damage with its charged bite

than Carno does with its alt

[brave imp]

Are you referring to the omni directional bite or the charge?

[hollow canyon]

just don't stand there and tank it, if Carno vomitted it's lower on stam, it can't cover as much ground as you nor can it use its special ability in the woods

just run from it, get into the woods, if it follows kill it

[hollow canyon]

I'm referring to Carno's omnidirectional attack

Omni is Cerato food

[dusky surge]

i disagree, it should have at least decent stamina, its horrible stamina is what subjected it to the oh-so-unfortunate fate of being a botched and failing ambush hunter

[hollow canyon]

joke of an animal - small game hunter that's bad at hunting whole game

[brave imp]

How much are you willing to give for stam

[dusky surge]

it's a plains predator, it spends most of its time in the wide open, it should be sprinting and moving around frequently

[brave imp]

Like the percent increase for stam

[hollow canyon]

wdym?

[dusky surge]

take it's charge damage WAY down and I can happily sacrifice that for, like, 15 seconds extra runtime

[hollow canyon]

I don't want increases in stam

[dusky surge]

i also want a trotrate buff

mainly the trotrate

[south sandal]

but they so fat

[hollow canyon]

I want the stam cost of of running to go down by half for things like Carno

[south sandal]

heck nah

[brave imp]

Giving these buffs to carno will break it more

[south sandal]

facts

[dusky surge]

it's literally the worst animal in the game atm lol

[brave imp]

It’s not

[hollow canyon]

Omni I think 2/3rd would be fine

[south sandal]

Carno is good where its at

[hollow canyon]

Cerato probably double too

same for Tenonto

[hollow canyon]

in the dumpster

[brave imp]

Cerato stam is insane as is

[hollow canyon]

it's 100 seconds of runtime

[south sandal]

you want the fastest dino to have super stam

[brave imp]

Coming from a legacy cera main

[dusky surge]

i can't believe people legit think this lol, I haven't played carno past the stress test because its experience was so absolutely painful

[south sandal]

so u can chase things all over the map

[hollow canyon]

no, I want it to have the worst stam in the game still

[hollow canyon]

I am not going to be chasing anything because I don't play Carno

[dusky surge]

i want the fastest dino to have a reasonable amount of stam, so it can actually exist in the plains

[south sandal]

thats u carnos are not lacking on the officials

[dusky surge]

they are

[south sandal]

see em everywhere

[dusky surge]

the only reason carnos are growing in number is because they're the only thing capable of culling the cerapocalypse

ironically, carno is good at one thing, and that is killing cera

[brave imp]

Yeah cause it’s the newer playable

[south sandal]

and utahs

[brave imp]

People are going to play it

[south sandal]

and pretty much everything else

[dusky surge]

no, raptors should not be dying to carnos unless their eyes are firmly closed and their headset across the room

[hollow canyon]

there's a small game hunter mid tier carnivore added to the game with a bunch of animals that are effectively on its menu - people are playing it, because it's the biggest land predator in the game

https://tenor.com/view/surprised-pikachu-pokemon-shock-surprised-pikachu-gif-15357817

who would've thought?

[brave imp]

Are you talking about cera?

[dusky surge]

carno

he's talking about carno

[south sandal]

Carno is good what more can u want

[brave imp]

Dude sorry it’s hard to keep track

[hollow canyon]

Cerato isn't a mid tier, it's not a small game hunter or much of a hunter at all, it's not the biggest land predator in the game either

[dusky surge]

playing raptor a lot since this update, i never once feared carnos, they're such a non-issue. As a solo raptor, you can easily escape. As two raptors, you can kill the thing (as long as the pounce doesn't get you hurt for landing it)

[south sandal]

I feel like people who want more stam on carno are people who jus run and hold rmb

[dusky surge]

No, I hate that playstyle

[hollow canyon]

I don't think this animal has been worse during whole of Evrima

[dusky surge]

^

[tall bronze]

Whenever I've seen a Carno, I just go "oh no. step to the side" and am safe.

[hollow canyon]

you never hold rmb and I don't want it to have more stam

read what is said

[knotty harbor]

carno does need more stam, its not a brawler its a small game hunter and should be able to run from threats

[hollow canyon]

it doesn't need more stam, it needs more runtime

stamina is not the same thing as runtime in this game

not that just Carno needs more runtime

[tall bronze]

I imagine they're holding out on changing it much until Gateway comes considering the grasslands there are quite different.

[hollow canyon]

just about ever animal does

[knotty harbor]

dude its effectivly the same thing

[hollow canyon]

Dryosaurus runs for a pathetic 120 seconds

[hollow canyon]

it isn't doubling stamina means you can use the abilities twice as much

[brave imp]

2 mins of running is a lot

[hollow canyon]

it's nothing

when did you start to play this game?

[brave imp]

Since legacy

[hollow canyon]

Evrima

when did you start to play Evrima?

[south sandal]

should deino have more runtime too

[hollow canyon]

no, more swimtime could be a thing though

[brave imp]

6.5 came out cause I couldn’t run evirma at the time

[hollow canyon]

I mean you definitely haven't played it for long

[dusky surge]

It's REALLY bad atm, because it's such a failure in everything it aims to achieve

A: Small game hunter that lacks the endurance to actually keep pace with its prey
B: "Ambusher" with a long acceleration that makes it exceptionally difficuly to burst someone down, and who also lives in the most open biome in the game
C: Plains predator with one of the worst staminas in the game, comboed with a pathetic trotrate
D: Supposed to be a counter to things smaller than it, but is so vulnerable to bleed and fractures that its own prey tends to punch back harder
E: Outclassed as a fun and competently made high-speed pursuit predator with poor turn radius and accel by GALLIMIMUS, who is an omnivore and kills for fun.

The carno is a worse carno than galli atm. I'd laugh if it wasn't so disappointing

[hollow canyon]

this game played vastly better on earlier updates

when everything had more runtime

and traveling was easier and not as much of a chore

I'd say that Carno definitely ran too long at that point but it should be somewhere between what it was and what it is now.

Dryo and Utah could probably get back to around their old values

Tenonto could also at least have its runtime doubled

[tall bronze]

"Lmao just use the 500 copy-paste bushes that are gonna go away lmao just hunt from the treeline as the animal meant to be IN the plains lmao it's fine as an ambusher"

[hollow canyon]

running for 90 seconds with an animal of that speed is pathetic

not to mention something like Pachy which runs for 105 seconds

[dusky surge]

clearly i'm playing it wrong, it's my fault i haven't been using the terrible map design to my advantage

[hollow canyon]

and then trots like Sucho in legacy

[south sandal]

an animal that runs that fast doesnt have stamina

[dusky surge]

God forbid this thing ends up on a competently made map

[south sandal]

thats the whole point its burst

[dusky surge]

Yes... it does? What is this logic

[brave imp]

I’m confused carno can outrun a peachy so the extra stam of patchy is useless

[tall bronze]

The treeline argument especially irks me. That's like telling a sniper who has awful falloff to just get close to their enemy before shooting.

[hollow canyon]

it doesn't have burst, it has one of the longest accelerations in the game

[dusky surge]

^

[tall bronze]

It's like 3-4 seconds to fully run I think

[hollow canyon]

cancel that - THE longest acceleration in the game

[dusky surge]

the accel would be FINE if put in tandem with ANYTHING else to make it a pursuit predator

[hollow canyon]

it having a garbage acceleration is nothing new but it at least used to have the runtime back in the day

[dusky surge]

I actually like the accel, but god damn if it didn't already hit carno where it hurt atm

[hollow canyon]

it also turned better

atm the only thing the running sausage does is run in a straight line after finally accelerating

[brave imp]

So why nerf cera

[knotty harbor]

ah i see so you want to make it so it can run by reducing its stam cost for running but keeping its current combat drain the same?

[hollow canyon]

yea

my point precisely - if you start charing

[tall bronze]

I remember looooong ago in legacy, there was a time Carno could actually keep up with smaller, more agile prey and I had gotten chased by two Carnos as a lone Dryo and man was it fun. I could juke them, but it wasn't "cool, I stepped to the side and am now completely safe thanks to your bus turning", I constantly had pressure on me until I either wore them out or escaped to safer areas.

I want that back.

[hollow canyon]

you drain your stamina very fast

if you just run it's not as harsh

[brave imp]

It seems carno buffs are more imports

[hollow canyon]

and Carno needs to use its abilities to hit their opponent

[south sandal]

lmaoo

[brave imp]

Important

[dusky surge]

personally i feel carno's charge being this comsuming on stam is exceptionally lame and only serves to further push this ambusher style

[hollow canyon]

than what?

I'm literally talking about a global buff

[dusky surge]

Oh no, carno needs nerfs no doubt, in one area. Ram damage. Its ram in no universe needs to do like, 350 damage. 250 would be a far more reasonable number

[south sandal]

As far as I understand it was a fast sprinter with little agility, probably hunting smaller fast moving prey as an ambush predator

[hollow canyon]

it's you two screeching that it's a "Carno buff"

[knotty harbor]

let me just throw this in here really fast and get yalls thoughts #balance-feedback message

[brave imp]

Making everything have good stamina won’t solve anything

[dusky surge]

Except it can't do that at all because all of that contradicts itself

has little agility hunting small, agile prey
lives in the open yet expected to be an ambusher

[south sandal]

i mean there are tons of bushes

[dusky surge]

Only because Spiro is bad. Those aren't so common on Gateway

[knotty harbor]

yeah carno should be a endurance hunter of small prey not an ambusher to be fair

[south sandal]

thats hide carno well if u really wanted to u could catch alot of things off guard as u should

[dusky surge]

And they're not there on Gateway

You can't rely on them

[south sandal]

thats how its supposed to be u catch em off guard wit the charge

then finish

[hollow canyon]

irl? We have no idea what it was hunting, it's the only animal in its formation. It was a fast sprinter with an insanely quick acceleration due to having one of the if not the largest m. caudofemoralis out of all the theropods it likely did have a meh turn rate due to a smaller m. rectus spinae but abelisaurs weren't particularly bad at turning in general.

Also dinosaurs did not get tired this fast and would easily outlast humans

[south sandal]

Not true

[brave imp]

Give carno a drift like it’s Tokyo Drift(That’s a joke)

[hollow canyon]

so the whole stamina thing you can keep to yourself - this is not a cheetah you're talking about

[south sandal]

humans have the best endurance because we have the ability to sweat

[dusky surge]

And it's terrible and should be reworked for a more befitting style of play for a plains predator

[hollow canyon]

we have the best endurance at lower speeds

we can't keep up with dinosaurs at high speeds

they can move at top speed for much longer than we can

[south sandal]

So how long do u think something that fast can run for before exterting its stamina

[knotty harbor]

well its due to more then just that but yes we have the best endurance of current animals, not so sure compared to dinos

[south sandal]

and that big

[hollow canyon]

I don't know the estimates for that, longer than mammals, that's for sure

[brave imp]

So nerf other Dino’s( don’t actually)

[hollow canyon]

no

this isn't about going for realism

[south sandal]

thats what the game is about tho , dont they try to make everything as close as irl as possible

[hollow canyon]

if it was Carno would be vastly more powerful than now.

[brave imp]

You cant balance every Dino as it’s there too many interactions

[hollow canyon]

Realistically it has a much greater biteforce than Ceratosaurus, accelerates the fastest in the whole roster and weighs more/is bigger than it does/is in the game.

and ofc it isn't charging anything

[south sandal]

actually not true , carno is a large dino yes but it did not hunt other large dinos due to the size or their teeth

[hollow canyon]

it would break its neck

[knotty harbor]

i mean you cant really say it has a greater biteforce then cerato as ceratos biteforce is unknown in rl but people believe it to be very high due to the structure of its jaws for a creature its size

[hollow canyon]

I swear, first you got the constrictor Titanoboa from somewhere now this nonsense.

[south sandal]

look it up lol

[hollow canyon]

it does and yes it is known

[south sandal]

and not on wikipedia

[hollow canyon]

I did, even sent you a study on that but I doubt you actually read it

[knotty harbor]

waiting for a link to prove me wrong on that front

[hollow canyon]

1 sec

https://peerj.com/articles/13731/

scroll down to the table, this is the best and most up to date study for estimates of biteforces of theropods

[south sandal]

mans said titnaboa cant constrict

[hollow canyon]

yea, cause it can't

I mean it can at most once because it dies in the process

[south sandal]

The Titanoboa’s main weapon was its massive weight, body surface area and the power of its constriction. It crushed its prey with a force of 400 kg per square inch (which is equivalent to 28 tons/m 2). Its constriction force is comparable to being trampled by one and a half Brooklyn Bridges (the total bridge weight is 14 680 tons).

first thing that pops up

[brave imp]

Chill it’s just game balance no need to get personal both of you

[hollow canyon]

yes - the first thing that pops up

definitely the best source

[south sandal]

its not personal its just a debate

[hollow canyon]

even wikipedia would be a better source than that random stuff google threw at you

[tall bronze]

How did it go from Carno being awful to an animal that is confirmed to be scrapped

[hollow canyon]

that's outdated by over a decade at this point

[brave imp]

Idk

I’m heading out

[hollow canyon]

nonsensical statements that I'm hearing from the same person in the same day

[south sandal]

!

[hollow canyon]

I have no idea where you get the idea that small teeth = doesn't hunt big prey

Carcharodontosaurs have relatively small teeth

they have hunted the biggest animals in the history of the earth

[south sandal]

man i have been searching on google it never says carno hunted large dinos just smaller ones on every source i click so if u have other wise send it

[hollow canyon]

if it's stating either it's just wrong

we don't know what Carno hunted

again - it is the only animal that has been found in its formation

it's unknown what it has lived with

is this clear enough?

[jovial vessel]

so why are we claiming what it "should be hunting"

[south sandal]

u throwing me off

[knotty harbor]

according to that study it almost has a bite force as strong as spino i kinda dont trust it lol

[hollow canyon]

your problem, this is the best study for estimating biteforces - also spoiler alert, Spino's bite and the bites of all the spinosaurids are weak

that might actually be an understatement

it's not the onyl study that estimates that as having very weak bites

[south sandal]

even sucho agreed the carno is supposed to be a small game hunter

[knotty harbor]

also regardless of what its bite force is currently guessed to be, its jaws are tiny meaning it cant fit big things in its mouth or wrap around big things necks meaning it probably kills smaller stuff for food

[hollow canyon]

it should be

I never disagreed with that

[hollow canyon]

it's not relevant what size its jaw are for how hard it bites

[south sandal]

...

[hollow canyon]

what matters is the size of the muscles that power those jaws

one of the indicators for it is the width of the skull

but obviously not the only one

it's also not the only study estimating Carno's biteforce as high

[south sandal]

big jaws = stronger bite force

[hollow canyon]

also it's not that Carno has a high biteforce among its relatives, it bites relatively meh, it bites really hard among theropods overall though

[knotty harbor]

the whole reason we were talking about biteforce was to figure out what it would eat in game i thought?

[hollow canyon]

big masseter muscle = strong bite force

[hollow canyon]

No? Idk why anyone brought up what it ate irl. I don't think Carno should be that closely based on its irl version because it will murderize all the terrestrial animals.

Stego is getting removed soon

[knotty harbor]

also if were going off realism now cerato should have decent bleed as it has serated teeth not as good as allos but similiar

[hollow canyon]

it will leave Carno as the biggest terrestrial dinosaur

[hollow canyon]

almost every theropod has serrated teeth

[knotty harbor]

i think they will wait till they add maia to remove stego honestly

[hollow canyon]

even T.rex

[hollow canyon]

I think it's getting removed in iirc 2 updates

whenever they do that... rework or whatever they wanted to do to it

[knotty harbor]

thats my point everything should have bleed if we start going off realism im not actually asking for it

[hollow canyon]

I think everything does

well every carnivore at least

[knotty harbor]

yeah but not very good bleed lol

[hollow canyon]

Carno has a weaker bleed, I argued for it to have a nerf to bleed before U6.5

[south sandal]

depends on what u attacking , cause some dinos have very thick skin

[knotty harbor]

but anyway im not really asking for that

[hollow canyon]

because it was really oppressive to fight as a herbivore at the time

[hollow canyon]

again - the game isn't based on realism

and b/ no such dinosaurs are in the game yet

[knotty harbor]

i think carno is fine with its current play style but needs some fine tuning with its run duration and i disagree with it being an ambusher but it is what it is

[south sandal]

I mean i think they try to keep it as real as possible

[hollow canyon]

they most certainly don't

they haven't in a long, long time

even the models are starting to look Pokemon-looking

[knotty harbor]

they turned acro into a fatty and are making it so it chokes its prey to death instead of bleeding it out

[hollow canyon]

and the abilities are getting more and more like Ark

[knotty harbor]

i wouldnt go that far lol

[south sandal]

right

[hollow canyon]

I would

[knotty harbor]

more like path of titans which is still bad

[south sandal]

ark pt can pick up things the isle is not

now ark is a terrible realism

[hollow canyon]

more like Ark, not Ark-copies... yet that is

[south sandal]

i never played as one

[knotty harbor]

look at the concept are its grasping stuff by the neck and its not bleeding them its just over powering them and forcing them to the ground while choking, i think it will work similiar to croc but instead drowning it will just choke them out

[south sandal]

that sounds so scary lol

[coral bolt]

So basically a land-deino

[dusky surge]

basically

i hate acro's concept art more than any other concept art ever made

[coral bolt]

I have nothing wrong with acro's design or it's abilities honestly.

[knotty harbor]

I actually like it but at the same time hate the idea of it being a lazy choker hunter, I assume it's Stam will be bad so I can imagine giga and Rex will make acro extinct

[dusky surge]

i hate the idea of acro taking on sauropods or trikes with such ease

[rigid tulip]

I significantly prefer fighting a 100% carno compared to a 70% cera as a raptor every time

[south sandal]

Seems like it takes triple the pounces

[rigid tulip]

And it will bite you when you are no where near it or on its back

[south sandal]

Yep been having the same problem with carno hitbox seem like they hit you when they not even around you

[rigid tulip]

Carno charge always hits me on the tip of the tail personally

[knotty harbor]

if you wait till they are about to hit your tail then turn toward them it will miss

if your really good you can turn the way they are going and get a bite on their tail

[south sandal]

I wish they should add a indomius rex

😂

[dusky surge]

why

[south sandal]

cause why not

that would be fun

and indoraptor

[dusky surge]

we're getting strains if that makes you happy

essentially big mutant dinos

[south sandal]

that sound cool to

i really cant wait for the megalania tho

[knotty harbor]

ew wait really? i thought they werent doing that anymore 😦

[dusky surge]

why would you think that

[rigid tulip]

If strains are unlocked via being an apex for a certain amount of time or something then its going to not only encourage significantly more apex players but also more agressive apex players

[tall bronze]

We don't really know how strains will be achieved. Been implied to be not just hard, but obscure as well in the past.

[knotty harbor]

i hope they do the smart thing and either make them dev only creatures or AI that goes around killing mega packs

[dusky surge]

god no

[knotty harbor]

what you actually want hypo players? thats way worse

[dusky surge]

yea?

i want hypers, neuros and tissos

and whatever type-O is

[knotty harbor]

thats so dumb for balancing

[dusky surge]

is it?

[knotty harbor]

absolutely

[dusky surge]

it's an animal that literally dies by existing

[tall bronze]

We don't even know what they're gonna do in detail.

[knotty harbor]

its an animal that can 1vserver

[dusky surge]

it won't be around for long

[dusky surge]

and the server should avoid it in that situation

it's like saying apexes can 1vserver

[knotty harbor]

how they are faster

[dusky surge]

we don't know that

[knotty harbor]

were you even around for hypo rex?

[dusky surge]

we don't know what the reworked hypers will be like

[tall bronze]

Also a good idea to just uh....kinda forget how they were in legacy. Those were just jacked up stat admin dinos, not the actual thing.

Like they literally had nothing unique about them

[dusky surge]

legacy? the thing that doesn't matter anymore in terms of balance or design? yea, i don't see how that's relevant

[knotty harbor]

if anything i only see them being stronger then before

[tall bronze]

They probably will be. But they'll also actually be fleshed out with unique mechanics and weaknesses instead of purely being admin characters with god stats and nothing else 😛

[dusky surge]

Gateway is also being built with them in mind, Hyper fences (and even destroyed hyper fences) are found all around Gateway, seperating key areas.

[knotty harbor]

i probably wont bother growing anything if they put hypos in or ill only play on servers with them disabled, i dont trust the devs not to make them busted

[tall bronze]

Nothing wrong with that They're giving server owners lots of customization for a reason

[dusky surge]

And with Gateway's unique tunnels and other structures, escaping these things would be more about using your environment, rather than dying due to raw stats. These things are HUGE, and that's as much a disadvantage as it is an advantage

Also not every strain will be a hyper

We have neuros and tissos too, both of which are likely MUCH more killable to the average dinosaur

Neuros are better suited for hunting down generation 2 humans, and tissos likely will exceed in stealth hunts over one-to-one combat

[tall bronze]

Tissos sound coolest

[dusky surge]

I kinda hope Tissos are best at hunting Generation 1, meaning most strains have a preferred target

Hypers hunt dinos
Tissos hunt Gen 1
Neuro hunts Gen 2

[tall bronze]

Kinda makes sense since Gen 1 seem to be mostly brute force through the power of bunga. A stealthy creature who excels at hitting where it hurts and/or debilitating it's prey makes sense for it.

[dusky surge]

Gen 2 has tech, dinos have heightened senses, gen 1 is just in the middle where it'd be most concerned by a stealth attack

[tall bronze]

[exotic lotus]

stegos are way to op you need to fix it its insane a full grown croc can barely do anything to it

[dusky surge]

"stego OP cus my 8 ton invincible/invisible megapredator can't kill it easy" my beloved

[knotty harbor]

all i have to say is if they move stego to 8 tons they should move the croc to 14.7 tons :p just cause lol

[dusky surge]

we absolutely do not need a 14.7 ton deino

[knotty harbor]

we absolutely dont need a 8ton stego either

[dusky surge]

it needs to be viable against rex or trike

deino already is

[knotty harbor]

it being viable against trike makes no sense, rex maybe but at the same time rex out weights it by alot and should be able to bully it, i dont buy the stego apex thing a bit there are already plenty of herbi apexs

[dusky surge]

there are plenty of carni apexes yet acro for some reason is considered being up there as well

[knotty harbor]

there are 4 carni apexs

including acro

[dusky surge]

if acro is an apex, deino would be too

acro is considerably smaller than deino

[knotty harbor]

deino isnt an apex it loses to a small stego that makes no sense

[dusky surge]

a 14.7 ton deino is undoubtedly an apex

[keen plover]

Stego has apex levels of damage

[dusky surge]

(which it should have)

[keen plover]

Yeah

[knotty harbor]

14.7 isnt in the game and it probably wont ever be cause people whine about a dino they could avoid all game if they werent lazy

[keen plover]

14.7t Deino would genuinely be horrible

[dusky surge]

says the person whining about stego lol

[knotty harbor]

i whine about stego cause i can be a mile inland and one will push me off a body or oneshot me in the head

deino is stuck being close to water

[dusky surge]

and deino can oneshot you regardless of where it hits if you are 4 tons or less

[knotty harbor]

rightfully so it has no way to chase you onto land

its slow as balls

[dusky surge]

stego can't chase you on land either, because it's slow as balls

just leave lol

[knotty harbor]

yeah but it can push you off bodies like i said already

[dusky surge]

so can deino

[golden coral]

We need it more than we need deino being heavier. A 8T stego would work fine, a 14T deino would invalidate almost the entire roster. :p

[keen plover]

This is an update 3 discussion

[dusky surge]

anthomnia literally made a video of land-deino and he really exposed how broken this animal is. At 37% grown, nothing on the island could challenge him

[knotty harbor]

heres what i know, people go around abusing how strong stego is bullying carnis off bodies and wiping out 3 carnis at a time while deino is completely avoidable

[keen plover]

How

[dusky surge]

how lol

[knotty harbor]

correct which is why i think neither should get a size buff

[keen plover]

Genuinely food is a non issue on Spiro

[dusky surge]

everything needs to drink
nothing needs to be near a stego
clearly stego is unavoidable while deino is completely avoidable

[keen plover]

Go find another thing to hunt

Or move away for 5 minutes

[dusky surge]

People complain about AI so much but I've rarely ever struggled for food

[knotty harbor]

what you mean how there is shallow spots to drink all over the map, near center there are 3

i havent died to a deino since literally last year

[keen plover]

I go center and grow carnos there. So many dead baby ceras

[dusky surge]

And there's places without stegos all over the map, approximately thousands anywhere you go

[golden coral]

Stego could use full 8T size plus new attacks/abilities (it needs this anyway to be a fun playable, current kit is kind of meh, same goes for deino, give it a better kit), and some gular armor (could still apply 1.75 or so in headshot, more than the normal 1.5 without overdoing it to 2)

[dusky surge]

You see a stego, you move, done

[golden coral]

Also if you're concerned with what stego can do, remember trike is a thing, so is shant

[dusky surge]

God I can't wait for Gateway's superior spawning system

[golden coral]

Both most likely faster/more mobile animals with better ability to pressure, and corpseguard and so on xD

[keen plover]

This game hasn’t had food struggles since like update 3.75

[dusky surge]

lmao, trike bodyguarding going to be gold

[golden coral]

Also just remove stego run, give it a good trot and call it a day xD

[dusky surge]

trike arguably can bodyguard better with its ability to swap to its duelist stance

[golden coral]

Anky bodyguarding xD

[dusky surge]

LMAO

[golden coral]

Good luck moving that thing

People really do at times seem to forget there's plenty of other large herbis that can do what stego does, but even better

[dusky surge]

Brachi bodyguarding my sub-adult tenontosaurus kill (ban him admins)

[golden coral]

Can't wait until shant or brachi just wades into river and stomps xD

[knotty harbor]

dont misunderstand im simply tired of people acting like stego needs a size buff while complains about deino being able to insta kill stuff half its in game size lol

[keen plover]

Good luck to Deino after seeing those Gateway leaks

[golden coral]

That's because of how it kills, and how many things are in that "half its size" and so on

You can't just compare their weight/size

[knotty harbor]

facts nobodys going to play it lol

[knotty harbor]

cant get killed if you go to a safe spot to drink

[golden coral]

Also we're arguing stego needing it's size buff to not just fold to the other large/apex critters

Whereas deino, even if you kept it as is, as long as spino isn't a thing, it's still unkillable

[dusky surge]

SHALLOWS FOR SUCHO MY BELOVED YEAAAAAA

[knotty harbor]

right cause it needs to outweight allo by 6 tons to make it fair for it to fight allo lol

[golden coral]

The water safety biome negates any form of threat that we can add aside from cheirus and spino

[golden coral]

Unless allo is above 4T, it just dies to lunge?

[dusky surge]

Don't forget deino's bleed resist

[knotty harbor]

allo is less then 4 tons in rl

[keen plover]

I hope sucho ends up on officials

[dusky surge]

It goddamn better, I need this thing to balance out the shallows with the depths

[keen plover]

Sucho and para being the largest creatures

[golden coral]

I don't know how large our allo will be, but Im not sure how that's relevant. If you're talking deino, then it dies if it's not above 4T, if you're talking stego, well, allo packs could hunt a stego probably, with some difficulty, depending on how allo and the grapple is tailored

[keen plover]

Not allo/Alberto

[knotty harbor]

im sorry but if your too dumb to learn the map and find safe drinking spots you deserve to get oneshot by a giant croc

[dusky surge]

lmao

[dusky surge]

im sorry but if your too dumb to learn to look and find safe eating spots you deserve to get one shot by a giant herbivore

[keen plover]

Deino is poorly implemented. It’s either useless or oppressive

[golden coral]

I don't really think allos should fight stego unless in 3-4 groups honestly. So an 8T stego would still be fine at that point, depending how it it's kit works as well, compared to allos and all

[dusky surge]

agreed, that'd be ideal

[golden coral]

Pretty much. It could be adjusted and "fixed", at least somewhat

[dusky surge]

allos could take hits and rotate out

[knotty harbor]

that makes no sense one is post to hunt the other isnt, body denying is just outright troll behavior

[golden coral]

But it is a bad animal as it were :p

[keen plover]

I want Allo to be good at healing like legacy

Not as great but

[knotty harbor]

doubt it will probably get oneshot by a 8ton stego, makes no sense for it to get that big without a dmg buff

[keen plover]

One of the better healers

[dusky surge]

that makes no sense one is visible the other isn't, water denying is outright troll behaviour

[knotty harbor]

"water denying" its how it hunts want you want it to do crawl on land like a lizard?

[golden coral]

You'd have to give stego a rather nice buff to damage to make it oneshot an allo

[dusky surge]

"body denying" that's how it prevents carnivores from eating, you want it to walk around and let carnivores get strong and healthy?

[golden coral]

It currently does what, just about 1.8K damage on carno, so unless allo is just that size, current stego isn't going to one shot it, and with a bigger allo, it certainly wouldnt, unless you added some massive multiplier on allo somewhere, for some reason

[keen plover]

Allo being one shot would be overkill

[knotty harbor]

i want them to play the way they should instead of denying people a kill when they already have everything going for them except speed lol

[golden coral]

If we get a, what, 3T or so allo (not sure how large they are), that stego is not one shotting it, probably not even twoshotting it on body

Do remember weight does not relate to damage in Evrima

[knotty harbor]

i doubt they are just going to give it a size buff and kit with new moves without buffing dmg to contend with rex

also i dont think allo even got to 3 tons

granted this game is weird and makes huge dinos

[golden coral]

Why would you need to buff the damage if you give it a better kit? Also that depends entirely on the damage of the rex too

[dusky surge]

No they don't?

Deino has:

• More weight (and by proxy, more health)
• More effective damage (4k damage, as opposed to 1.8k)
• More bite damage (10x, in fact)
• More water speed
• The ability to dive
• More bleed resist
• Invisibility on demand
• The ability to sense movement and drinking
• Easier to fulfil diets

Stego has:

• A specifically weak head hitbox
• A telegraphed attack that does 1.8k damage, but can be baited and be used for attack openings

[golden coral]

Also stego does not need to contend with rex damage wise

It needs to have a kit that allows it to keep rex at bay until it either stacks enough damage to make rex feel it, or the rex just goes "nah, this isnt worth it" and goes away

I would not expect stego to somehow "fight" rex in an upfront battle, that'd be silly, stego should just have the ability to slowly wear rex down over time while keeping the big teeth away from it's tiny head so it doesn't die

[knotty harbor]

comparing it to deino when were talking about body denying away from water is dumb try comparing it with something it actually deals with

[dusky surge]

Deino is better at body denying than stego, how about that

Drag the food into water, no one can get it anymore

[knotty harbor]

LOL only because morons go to center all day like its a battle arena

[keen plover]

I feel like Rex should be bad with dealing with blood while moving

[golden coral]

Hence why a weight improvement/health plus a better kit would be just fine, some extra armor on the head/neck if needed so it doesn't die too easily if needed, and maybe a bit more damage on power attacks, but I can't see stego doing more than 1.5K or so at most, and that'd be for specific high power/stam cost attacks or so

[dusky surge]

Anything stego can do, deino does better

Deino does anything better than it

[knotty harbor]

also carno and cerato can both drag bodies away faster then deino can walk on land

[keen plover]

So if it keeps pursuing a bleeder while moving, it can bleed heavily. Much more than average

[dusky surge]

Like carno?

[knotty harbor]

you literally just hate deino Mr.Sucho to the point you make stuff up

[golden coral]

Mind you, the attack doesn't do 1,8K, that's with me taking normal head multiplier into account for the allo situation. It does the normal 1.2K(1250 or so) I believe. Unless things have changed.

[icy prawn]

deino gets rid of the food while stego just camps the food for awhile and might go away (if the stego player has a life)

[dusky surge]

I like deino, but I refuse to acknowledge the concept that this animal is balanced

[keen plover]

Carno sucks while standing. I kind of want Rex to be decent while standing

While moving with bleed is a bad decision

[golden coral]

Wouldnt that make deino worse to contend with?

[knotty harbor]

its avoidable by players with map knowledge and to pretend its not is to lie

[dusky surge]

I am one of the people who actually thinks deino deserves to be in the game unlike many other people here

[keen plover]

So standing bleed is average modifier wise, but trot and walk could be worse

[dusky surge]

And stego is avoidable by players with eyes, to pretend its not is a lie

[icy prawn]

🤯

[dusky surge]

IDK why stego gets all this hate when deino is clearly just... more harmful than it

[south sandal]

True but they sit on bodies hit you while drinking from behind all kinda crazy stuff

[knotty harbor]

dying of hunger cause a stego sat on your fresh teno kill is not avoidable, dragging a body far enough away a deino dies to thirst going to it is both funny and possible 100% of the time

[keen plover]

What’s the argument anymore

I’m confused.

[dusky surge]

Dying of hunger because a deino stole your fresh teno kill is not avoidable either?

[icy prawn]

babbling

[dusky surge]

Stego bad

[knotty harbor]

its def avoidable

[keen plover]

So real

[silver jolt]

Increase AI spawn rate it feels to low, been running around where they are meant to spawn but find nothing

[dusky surge]

But stego isn't somehow

[golden coral]

Only if the deino is very slow to pay attention to be honest

[knotty harbor]

correct

[golden coral]

If you're already watching the fight unfold, and the corpse isn't already almost too far inland, you're not going to let the predator move that corpse

They try, they run out of stam and you can just ignore them, they don't, you can tank any attack and just make your way back slowly while they desperately try to prevent you, to no avail

[knotty harbor]

you can drag a body faster then deino can walk, if they run they lose all their stam and either turn around or die to thirst or a stego

[dusky surge]

As someone who literally never plays stego and only plays carni most of the time, I have never struggled as hard with stego as most of the community claims to have

It's literally such a non-issue

[golden coral]

Why wouldn't you run up to claim the corpse, then you just take it back slowly and easily

Sure, if there's a stego around, you're in a terrible spot

[knotty harbor]

i have a stego on isla noctis and it wont die lol

[golden coral]

But that only applies if there is a stego around, which kind of goes to show that stego is what keeps deinos somewhat away from land

[dusky surge]

Yea because most people are either too bad to fight it, or too scared

[icy prawn]

weird flex but ok

[knotty harbor]

you know adult deinos dye very fast to thirst right?

[golden coral]

Just find a troodon pack, apparently they are master stego killers, for some reason xD

[golden coral]

Yes, but you still have about 10 min, plus some more since you can survive a bit without

[icy prawn]

hold up

[golden coral]

So you don't need to panic if you're not close to death, because the moment you're in water, you're good

[south sandal]

Who really wants to fight a adult stego

[golden coral]

Because you know, passive water gain

But I did say if a corpse falls close enough to the river

[knotty harbor]

yes but how far do you think i could drag a body as a cerato with god tier stam?

[dusky surge]

People who know how to do it. No one wants to fight an adult deino besides stego because only stego can actually do it

[golden coral]

Quite far, but again, you're not fast while doing so from what I know, unless cera is faster than most. The deino will get up to you, and then you're done for

[knotty harbor]

alot of people surprisingly

[golden coral]

And if you've moved the corpse, you now have no body down buff

So that deino will just chomp you if you don't keep distance

Since unlike stego, you can't make it puke

[jovial vessel]

me if I have enough omnis that are keen

[golden coral]

I still think deino honestly does better fighting on land vs things than stego do

[dusky surge]

It really does

[golden coral]

Aside from maybe vs carno

[dusky surge]

More health, more bleed resist, it can ignore many animals

[knotty harbor]

you can drag fast enough a deino wont catch you thats what im telling you, deino isnt a body denying problem unless you literally wait for one to show up before you drag the body from the water

[golden coral]

And I'm not sure that applies if the deino moves in as soon as the body falls, you won't get it far away before the deino catches up

Unless the body is already sufficiently far away

[knotty harbor]

yeah i think it does as long as it stays close to the water

[golden coral]

No, I meant in terms of kit/abilities, fighting on open ground

If it wasn't for deino dehydrating, I think it'd do better vs most things than stego does in the same circumstances

[knotty harbor]

ive never had that happen that fast and if i see one walking towards us before the fights over i simply move away

[golden coral]

Same number of omnis/troodons/carnos/ceras vs a deino on land that gets water refilled all the time, compared to a stego in the same spot, I'd say deino does as good, if not better than stego overall

Same would apply for herbis honestly, teno can fight stego after all, pachy probs can't fight either very well, galli might do fine vs either if they are good enough, and then there's dryo

[knotty harbor]

and i agree, however 1v1 on avg stego wins but i dont care about that right now what i simply dont think deino needs a nerf when the new map literally has lakes deino cant get to for people to drink at

[dusky surge]

"Lakes that deino can't get to"

Owlenstein has proven you wrong lol

[south sandal]

Why would they nerf deino

[knotty harbor]

i dont even know who that is

[dusky surge]

Owl managed to get to the most isolated lakes on the entire map and just hang out there until fully grown

[icy prawn]

yeah deino got its legs removed in the last hotfix

[dusky surge]

Nothing got changed with deino last hotfix?

[icy prawn]

easiest thing to grow

[knotty harbor]

thats great but that was what 6 months ago?

[icy prawn]

it was a sarcastic joke

[knotty harbor]

@dusky surge was he on a empty server where everyone just let him run across the land as a deino to these lakes and not try to kill him or something?

[south sandal]

Tryna kill a deino on land is pointless

[dusky surge]

^

[south sandal]

I think everyone knows that

[dusky surge]

unless you're stego, leave it alone

[knotty harbor]

if he ran he was still little i doubt he made it as an adult

[south sandal]

Oh a juvie

[dusky surge]

but lucky for deino, stego is getting pushed to unofficials, so it can go wherever it wants without fear

[south sandal]

Still got that quick water meter tho

Not to far swamp puppies

[knotty harbor]

they probably will add something like maia until stego comes back in

[dusky surge]

the hell is maia doing against deino lol

[icy prawn]

look in its direction

[knotty harbor]

i didnt say anything about it doing anything to deino lol

[knotty harbor]

i said they will probably put maia in while stego is out

[dusky surge]

So why mention it when I was referring to stego dealing with deino?

[wraith relic]

The hell is Maia doing in general

[knotty harbor]

why not read my sentence for what i actually said?

[dusky surge]

i did, i fail to see the relevancy of maia

[south sandal]

Nothing will rival the deino except T Rex or sphino

[dusky surge]

doubt the t-rex, given it's not going into the depths where deino hides

only spino can prove a threat to deino legitimately

[south sandal]

The ones that come on land t rex can get

[knotty harbor]

i see so i guess english isnt your first language, i stated a dino might come in to fill the large herbi role stego currently fills as teno is small. i didnt say anything about deino and i was simply responding to the part where you said stego was being removed

[golden coral]

I don't think anyone argued for a nerf, I would argue for better interactions, but that's not the same thing I'd say.

[knotty harbor]

people beg for deino nerf on the daily

[golden coral]

Well, I meant in the given convo here to be fair :p

[knotty harbor]

one of the most voted for balance posts is voting to get rid of its lunge entirely

[golden coral]

I want a better interaction concerning lunge, just like I'd like something better for pounce/buck

[golden coral]

Sure, if you replace it with something better or otherwise, but then it's not a nerf, it's a kit change

[south sandal]

Why nerf deino tho they do exactly what they supposed to do

[knotty harbor]

id rather the lunge do bone break on the body or leg rather then actually grabbing stuff

[south sandal]

We just need a Dino that’s rivals it

[knotty harbor]

but sucho thinks that would be more busted but it forces the croc and land and to fight atleast

[golden coral]

They do, and that's kind of the issue, because an accurate gator does not make for good and fun gameplay

[dusky surge]

I'd prefer you don't speak for me

Especially when you clearly don't know what I want

[knotty harbor]

ive already had this convo with you three times i know how you feel about the bone break idea

[south sandal]

I feel you but that’s how it’s intended

[golden coral]

Yeah, and it's not neccesarily good, which is why people argue about it :p

[south sandal]

Yes it sucks growing all day to get killed by deino but that’s what they do

[golden coral]

Like, people disliked carno U6 despite, aside from a few issues such as a broken hitbox and charge spam, it did what it was supposed to

[dusky surge]

I don't think the bone break is "more busted" at all, I personally think you could healthily incorperate fractures into deino's kit, but removing the grab entirely kinda makes it... Not a giant croc, and just an aquarex, which I feel takes away from the animal's flair

I'd argue the bone break is weaker

[south sandal]

I’ve learned to accept it and just try to avoid confrontation

[golden coral]

Same can be said for deino, it does what its supposed to, but what its supposed to do isnt neccesarily fun or good for the game

And in deinos case, far worse than carno being competent at it's job (poor carno, why cant we just let it actually be good)

[knotty harbor]

just go drink in shallow water, i might actually make a map of spiro at this rate showing people where to drink lol

[icy prawn]

update 5 carno.....

[golden coral]

I would argue that if the best choice is to just avoid confrontation, that's a rather bad playable, you've basically turned it into nothing but a living pit you can fall into or so

Better to make it possible to survive interactions with deino and thus allow it to actually exist with others without being entirely terrible

[golden coral]

I know, but that's a terrible argument far as I'm concerned. As bad as "just use terrain", since it removes any form of possibility of skill and smart on the part of the player, to instead rely entirely on the terrain doing the job.

No need to think if the water is just too shallow for a deino to even exist in.

Does it work, sure, is it fun, no not as far as I'm concerned

[knotty harbor]

its smart to drink from shallow water to avoid 8ton crocs

[golden coral]

Yeah sure, about as smart as "don't climb mountains as a playable that can't handle fall damage" I suppose

[south sandal]

It’s currently the only apex we have a cera or carno shouldn’t be able to kill a 8 ton monster

[golden coral]

If that's the level of demand on the player we're going for, I'm not that impressed

[knotty harbor]

like i dont get your point here you almost make it seem like you want to be grabbed with this statement lol

[south sandal]

And that’s just fair in my eyes

Even tho I don’t even play deino at all

[golden coral]

Then I'll clarify. Let's add A, clarity of water so you can see deinos instead of them being entirely hidden. B, a bit of a warning, somehow, like a noise, before/during a deino lunge, like carnos charge noise. C, a quick movement to stop eating/drinking and dodging/moving to the side to "cancel" the lunge.

[knotty harbor]

i play everything but bleipi i cant stand that weird bleipi thing

[golden coral]

Now, you have ways to interact, or act, versus a deino, that isn't just "don't drink there"

[south sandal]

Beipi is the best

[golden coral]

But relies on you as a player to pay attention, listen for sound cues, and react in time, if you want to survive the encounter

[knotty harbor]

id be fine with literally all of that

[dusky surge]

This kind of mindset is why I'm so terrified of the concept of long ranged rifles for humans. It feels like legitimate concerns over losing your time and effort to a blast from a hiding sniper you couldn't see will be brushed off as "don't stand in the open lol"

Like, plains animals exist, they have to be out in the open, yet this potentially endangers this entire lifestyle

[golden coral]

This is what I mean with having a better interaction, it's not a nerf, and would be balanced so both sides have a chance to "win" the interaction, but it gives the interaction something, instead of just "don't drink there"

[knotty harbor]

thats a really dumb comparison and your just being petty at this point

[dusky surge]

I wrote something on this as a concept for a balance concept for Deino
#general-feedback-discussion message

[golden coral]

Because while it is "smart" to just avoid deep water, it is also boring, and doesn't demand very much of the player, just like "just don't step of an edge" is smart, but not that demanding on the player either really (Dondi ravine and bushes aside of course)

[dusky surge]

Gives it more bite force, more lunge power, more capability on land, while also ensuring it isn't busted unfair and unable to be countered

[knotty harbor]

even if they add those features ill still drink from shallow water though js lol

[dusky surge]

I just feel restricting your ability to even drink from depths is meh

[golden coral]

You could, and that'd be fine, but it also means you don't "have to", you have options if you feel confident enough and know you can react well, and those shallow spots might have dangers of their own

[icy prawn]

it makes certain points of the map deserted

[knotty harbor]

yeah? just wait to sucho and spino are in and they chase you out of the water and kill you on land ll

[golden coral]

Since well, hotspots = predators, and with camera lock, you're not safe while drinking just because the threat does not come from the water

[dusky surge]

For example, shallows are infested with suchomimus. I can't drink without getting immediately squared up by an enraged spinosaurid, so I have to go to depths

[icy prawn]

sucho is a wader