balance-feedback-discussion

[obtuse ocean]

They prey is at top speed , but the cheetah is faster for those seconds.

[slim dragon]

There are other factors

[obtuse ocean]

yes, one is that the cheetah needs to get close enough.

[slim dragon]

You're trying to use extremely specific real-life examples to justify a dumb videogame mechanic

If there had to be some sort of "ambush speed boost" I would make it so that you run faster when your stam is near full instead of gaining a stupid speed boost after crouching for X seconds
Because that one, at least, makes sense

[slim dragon]

And that way it's also not an unfair advantage for carnivores

[obtuse ocean]

That you need an extra ambush speed, artificial as you said. I dont 100% disagree with. What i dont understand is that you dont understand that bigger animals have higher speed then its prey for a few seconds.

Not only cheetah

[slim dragon]

It's not that I don't understand, it's that it isn't true
If they do have higher speed, it's because the prey isn't running at its top speed, not because they are running faster than their own top speed.

[obtuse ocean]

That is true, it needs to accelerate. But a cheetah is still faster then whatever at top speed.

But then we need to balance the whole game around, when you go from standing still to walk to run etc

[slim dragon]

Yes, because it's a cheetah...

Surprisingly, the fastest animal on earth is faster than anything

[thin mantle]

It’s even worse to have to balance around an entirely different speed statistic (ambush speed) then having to balance around acceleration increases from ambush

Both of which I’m against anyway

Because speed is literally what defines power in this game over all other stats

Nothing is more important

[obtuse ocean]

No i get your point, i agree that you need accelerate etc. It takes time, but now that can be hard to balance. From when i stand still and you ambush me, cus then i would need to have some kind of acceleration speed etc

[thin mantle]

Speed is what dictates what you can or cannot even damage or engage with in the first place, as well as what is allowed to engage you, damage is what determines how effective you are once you’ve reached them, health is what determines your mistake allowance once you’ve reached them as well, both are reliant on speed as a prerequisite to even be relevant

[obtuse ocean]

And not only that, but if you take away the ambush speed in legacy. I would not fear an allo if i was utah. cus it would never catch me while fighting it. He would only react to what i do.

[thin mantle]

Which is genuinely fine

You don’t need to be threatened by everything’s ability to catch up to you

[slim dragon]

That's already the case

[slim dragon]

Because Legacy is bad

[thin mantle]

Also you didn’t have the option to actually ambush in legacy

[obtuse ocean]

No, but i dont want to run around as a branless chicked either. And i would like to actually fear what im hunting. And not only fear it when i want to

[distant torrent]

i suppose it’d encourage the allo to actually try ambushing effectively rather than relying on goofy mechanics to be more powerful

[slim dragon]

Since every dino can only attack in melee range everything has the chance to fight back
Except against ptera because ptera actually has ranged attacks

[thin mantle]

Which you wouldn’t, not only do you have other threats, but your risk in the environment as a highly agile and fast animal is mostly determined by your decision to engage those stronger than you, that’s the allure of those archetypes whereas slower defensive archetypes favor the opposite, you don’t need to fit both to be well made

Also it’s somewhat the point of smaller faster animals to have less wiggle room when it comes to the amount of mistakes they can make, but also having the ability to avoid mistakes all together easier

A stego can and should have a much higher mistake allowance than an Omni, as a trade off it now needs to be able to fight everything in the game viably

In turn the Omni gets a far broader range of choices in what it wants to engage at all

[slim dragon]

(Excluding rex because stego should hide from rex according to some)

[thin mantle]

Well those are the same people that want semi common auto rifles and snipers…so I don’t care what they think

[obtuse ocean]

Stego i get , its slow moving herbi. An allo needs to hunt it needs food. And it should be able to take smaller prey down if they dont pay attention.

[thin mantle]

Exactly

If they don’t pay attention, that’s the point of an ambush

[slim dragon]

If they don't pay attention is the key there

[obtuse ocean]

And not only when the omnis wants to attack. AND it needs to a mitake unless they have nothing to worry about

[thin mantle]

Yes

What’s the issue?

I wouldn’t say Carno is too powerful simply because nothing can catch it

U5 Carno is a prime example

[obtuse ocean]

The issue is that if you took away the ambush in legacy, you would be catch utahs 1 out of 20 . If your where even lucky.

Im not saying ambush like legacy is good

[slim dragon]

You're questioning the viability of animals there
If allo wants to hunt something small while being faster than it thanks to ambush speed, then what option does the prey have ?
It cannot run away
It cannot fight back
It just eats grass and dies

[thin mantle]

Ok…..but what’s the issue with that

Why must Utahs be a target allos catch more than 1/20 times

[thin mantle]

Pin gg as well, if it’s anything like omnis (hopefully not) then it won’t even require greater effort than a single keystroke

[obtuse ocean]

Cus i dont want to mid tiers to have no fear on me as omni, they should be oppresive.

For good ecosystem

[thin mantle]

Nothing in the game should be oppressive

Also that’s simply a case by case scenario

An allo can be a borderline joke to omnis but terrifying to avas

[obtuse ocean]

If you are stupid and walk around in the open , carnos should be oppreisve to you as a omni

[thin mantle]

Which they are and will continue to be

But they aren’t oppressive

They are a threat you can deal with

By avoiding them or having the numbers to kill them

I wouldn’t say in a broader sense that leopards are an oppressive ecological presence because they often hunt caiman

Also not every mid tier must threaten every small tier, tier based balance thinking is incredibly boring and lazy

[slim dragon]

It's a survival game
Which means there should be a way to survive any situation
Something being "oppressive" means you have no way of surviving it (like Deino)
Which is bad for a survival game

[thin mantle]

Basically

Deino is the quintessential example of an oppressive animal, not just to balance but to the games design generally

Which is thankfully being neglected in favor of better bodies of water

Cuz gateway is pog

[obtuse ocean]

They are oppresive if you are out in the open, cus if a carno sees you. He can kill you. And its not your decision what he wants to do, or mine for that case

[dusky surge]

how exactly will mid-tiers be super oppressive to an animal that more than likely will evade all of them?

[thin mantle]

Which means they aren’t oppressive because their threat is circumstantial to a scenario you place yourself into, that you have the option to avoid

[thin mantle]

I’d love to see a Sucho ambush speeding a Galli to death simply on the merit of the principle

[obtuse ocean]

yes, that was the point. They can be oppressive if you make a "mistake"

[slim dragon]

That's what ambush speed is for

[thin mantle]

Which means they aren’t oppressive, that’s like saying gravity is oppressive if you jump off a cliff….

[slim dragon]

Understand, we need predators to be oppressive

[dusky surge]

wait, that's our definition of oppression?

[thin mantle]

I think in this context it’s a more constant ever present threat, especially in the games context, typically something you aren’t capable of countering

[dusky surge]

rather than relying on circumstance, environment and adaptability, just "how easy can big thing invalidate small thing"

wonderful

[thin mantle]

Yes, balancing is hard

[dusky surge]

sucho being oppressive is fine, as long as you remain within its circle of influence (walk into shallow water, anger sucho, it wades over while you're sluggish, you get two claws to the face and die)

but if you choose to W+Shift away, it's done with

[obtuse ocean]

So you want a game where you just walk around and dont fear anything ? Cus you are doing no "mistakes"

[slim dragon]

Ideally yeah, if you're not doing any mistake you should never die in this game

But that would never happen

[thin mantle]

Yes

[dusky surge]

so you want a game where you get killed because a superior animal happened to witness you

[thin mantle]

Why would people be punished for playing optimally

That’s the purpose of skill

It as a concept exists to ensure success

[obtuse ocean]

Damn, thats sad for me when im in a bush as an allo. But you choose to walk past me in that bush. You didnt do any mistakes, it was just unlucky : P

[dusky surge]

if all mid-tiers applied oppression to small-tiers, why play the oppressed small-tiers? Likewise, if all apex-tiers oppress all mid-tiers, why play the oppressed mid-tiers

[slim dragon]

You're failing to understand on purpose

[thin mantle]

You could’ve played more carefully around obstacles larger animals can hide behind, or otherwise react fast enough to the ambush to run away

And if simply sitting in a bush affords invisibility then we have a map design issue

[slim dragon]

I often use the example of For Honor regarding balance because, although many balance choices and some of the game design are iffy in this game, it's got very strong points. Like, in 99% of the situations in this game, you can win a fight possibly without taking any hit. Even if you're 1v4.
The very rare situations where you can't do anything and die even though you didn't do any mistake are extremely unfair

But people still die to each other in For Honor because it's impossible to never make a mistake, especially against another player

[dusky surge]

As a small-tier, the premise of being small and frail and quick to die is enough of a constant motivator for survival. You don't need "allo can obliterate you if it so pleases and you have no say in the matter" thrown on top

[thin mantle]

Same with something like dark souls, entirely mastering the mechanics of its combat can and oftentimes should ensure success, in a multiplayer game the only real modifier is the comparison of skill between the players, which encompasses choosing what to engage and where as well

[obtuse ocean]

Yes, ofcourse. You can limit alot of oppresive stuff by playing good and have a good understanding about the game. 100% agree. But walking around feeling nothing is oppreisve becuase you play "good". Thats not really up to you, others can play the game good to.

[dusky surge]

No one is walking around thinking nothing is oppressive?

[thin mantle]

Then they aren’t oppressing you, they’re outplaying you

In a fair and balanced environment

[obtuse ocean]

You can and will die because you where unlucky aswell

[thin mantle]

Which is something that should and IS being mitigated as much as possible

Gateways water is literal evidence of this

[dusky surge]

the concept of "misfortune befall you, die" is not great, especially if it's "you had the misfortune of encountering this playable, which completely and utterly obliterates you" (cough cough, pachy vs teno)

[thin mantle]

Your job as a game designer isn’t to simply accept certain elements of gameplay that make the players efforts meaningless, it’s to work around them or past them

Or just redo/remove the problematic element

[obtuse ocean]

Its the fact that they can outplay that is oppreisve, cus you know you can be outplayed. So you dont go around and dont worry about anything

[slim dragon]

Example of good balance : Stego
Stego can kill anything it cannot run away from, and can theoretically run away from anything it cannot kill, yet it isn't oppressive because every other animal can survive an encounter with a stego if they play it right.
Example of bad balance : Deino
As most species, except stego, the only way to survive an encounter with a deino, is to never be seen by one. So deino is oppressive, and it's bad. Although it is limited by the fact deino is much less effective when out of the water (which is counter-balanced by the fact every dino has to come to water to drink occasionnally)

[thin mantle]

I’m not sure how having the ability to avoid most if not all consequences is the same as avoiding most if not all consequences

[thin mantle]

Somehow people still think stego is poorly balanced because your average pack of 6 omnis or 2 deinos can’t take them down

The former is literally fine and the latter is a skill issue

[dusky surge]

its also this kind of mindset that makes people say stuff like "anky shouldn't be immune to omnis, everything should be able to kill it", because the concept that an animal isn't constantly in the combat loop enrages them so

[slim dragon]

People think they are entitled to killing stegos

[thin mantle]

Because stegos existence insults their bloodline or something

[dusky surge]

lmao true

if anky is designed well, people will never shut the hell up about it

because ideally, anky ignores 95% of the roster and does its own thing

and that would make people so goddamn mad

[thin mantle]

Anky is too strong because it literally can’t kill anything unless they go towards it’s ass….meanwhile it can basically fight everything if not be immune to most

[thin mantle]

I crave the idea of fortress spectator mode Anky, sometimes I just want to vibe as a big slow rock

[dusky surge]

exactly

i also adore the concept of animals seeing something, assessing it, and just... not taking the fight

[obtuse ocean]

I would love if anky was played like that, i would wanne go past a pack of allos and just say hello and goodbuy

[thin mantle]

Basically

[dusky surge]

because in current EVRIMA, everything that moves is a combat target

[thin mantle]

Go visit the local nesting grounds to eat ferns despite them being filled with acros

[dusky surge]

exactly lol

and anky just threatens no one because its slow as hell

[thin mantle]

We’ll accept for deino….if taken literally, but I know what you mean, player landscape and all

Everything must fight if it moves

[dusky surge]

but unlike anky, deino forces itself into your life, anky can't

anky vibes and eats plants and watches the world around it progress

[thin mantle]

Because deino belongs in a first person shooter….somehow

[dusky surge]

anky being an apex that isn't built around having to constantly fight and kill everything would be a perfect niche

[slim dragon]

This would only work if players are able to nest on anky

[thin mantle]

It managed to defy the definition of the genre the game it exists within…..IS

[slim dragon]

Stop trying to kill the anky
Make it your citadel

[thin mantle]

Deino is literally anti survival

[dusky surge]

let smalls piggy back on anky if they jump on it lol

[thin mantle]

Genuinely would love that

[dusky surge]

honestly if anky is just a big, slow, friendly giant, that's all i need

[thin mantle]

Dryo fortress Anky

[dusky surge]

nothing can hurt it so it generally doesn't care about your presence, unless you're rex or spino

[slim dragon]

Hypsi nest on anky
Battlecruiser anky with artillery turrets

Also anky (at least elder) should have moss and possibly small herbs on its back

[dusky surge]

im not a fan of everything becoming more and more "fight fight fight" as we go higher in the tiers

[thin mantle]

It just needs armor flaps when they go submarine mode

If anything it should be the opposite

The larger animals have more to lose, and more they have to engage

They should be the most secure by far

Which is typically the point of size

But no we need tug of war mechanics so deino pairs can yank trikes into the depths

Because lighting is a great death mechanic

[obtuse ocean]

Only problem i see with anky beeing like that, is that would it be top safe in a herd when you have one ?

[dusky surge]

what

[slim dragon]

If the anky decides you deserve its protection

[dusky surge]

what is top safe

[thin mantle]

It’d be about as safe as having a stego in the group only worse, Anky is slower, and like stego, would probably suck at defending others

[thin mantle]

Probably something like “would the herd not be safe if an Anky is apart of it”

Which first of all, good luck having an Anky try to follow a herd of anything

Second of all, that’s a mine you planted at your own feet

It’s not safe to be next to an Anky, that’s the point

[obtuse ocean]

yea exactly what i mean, but good point with that following herd lol

[dusky surge]

have fun trying to deal with anky trying to follow your herd, you'd get exhausted waiting within minutes

[obtuse ocean]

It will be slow as hell

[thin mantle]

Your herd of maias will literally starve before the Anky travels half a kilometer

Also ideally, animals in a size tier that would be slow enough to utilize anky’s for defense would be more than equipped enough to defend themselves already

So there’s not much incentive to stick around one

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, depends on how fast the anky will be. Like can you go 2 gigas and fight a shant. And just avoid the anky, even while fighting the shant

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, thats a good point

[thin mantle]

👍
Discussions like this are always my favorite

[obtuse ocean]

Yes, and i love the fact that even if i disagree. The counter part actually have good valid points : P And i wouldt be surprised at all if im wrong lol

[thin mantle]

It’s always more fun when both sides are genuinely trying

[obtuse ocean]

This one i agree with you on , but just because I like to always see it from two views. I don’t know how the new map is going to be, but what if there is places you can go and drink from that not any deino can hide in. So if I go and drink a place where a deino can hide, just because im lazy and don’t wanne spend that extra time running to a safer spot. Or I didn’t pay attention to my water level, and im force to go and drink the closest places. Well is that balanced ? Cus you sorta could avoid it, but you take a risk to drink where you can be grabbed.

[slim dragon]

No, that's not balanced.
If the only way to avoid dying to a playable is not interacting with it at all, it's still bad.

[obtuse ocean]

Yea maybe, but i will prob not interact with a rex as para. The rex will gladly interact with me im guessing

[slim dragon]

What I mean is that normally, as a para, you may see a rex, rex starts chasing you, you run away
That's interaction
With deino the only solution is to never go where there is a deino
If you see it, it's too late

[obtuse ocean]

Depends on where you see it, just like rex and para. You can still see a deino, and run. But the fact that you also have no chance to see it is a problem.

[dusky surge]

@grizzled anchor thats not how fracture works, you cant do that

[hollow canyon]

I can deal with the issue of it not being able to force itself into your life. Now hear me out - have you heard of Ark's Doedicurus?

[golden coral]

@ashen frigateIf you mean the hitbox, it has been acknowledged and will be fixed.

[ashen frigate]

Where?

[golden coral]

I don't have it saved, but I think Dondi himself mentioned that the hitbox wasn't what it should be. So they are aware of that issue at least.

[ashen frigate]

Alright, thanks for the heads-up

[hollow canyon]

It's not just that - the hitbox HAS been fixed, like months ago at this point. It's just that it's on the build that's currently on the stress test.

[alpine plover]

@fleet torrent It's worse than you think. A 18% deino is able to grab full adult pachys and raptors. 😆

[fleet torrent]

wow then i was wrong, i thought they start being able to grab at 30-40%..
Thats not fun.. Im not against deino, i play it and i love irl gators but that thing? That's insane!

[dusky surge]

@alpine plover continuing to pounce applies more bleed damage, idk what you mean. The longer you pounce and the more you pounce, the more bleed damage you do

[alpine plover]

have you tested it ?

I sat in admin free and spammed it

no difference at all on my buddy

[dusky surge]

if you stand still, it goes much slower so its much harder to notice

[alpine plover]

Thats what bleed does while standing and running and all of it what do you mean guy?

I tested for HOURs

After fully pouncing while running and standing it was the same I pounced he made him run I pounced him made him stand he reached 10% bleed when I was attached to him and we reset ran the same distance and I leap off still same bleed same amount of time

[dusky surge]

did you try tap pouncing or multiple pounces from multiple omnis?

[alpine plover]

yes

all pounce does is keep bleed going does not add % for us

1:30 seconds is the bleed for someone moving before they heal

on a tier 3 atleast

all we do is reset that 1:30 timer

we do not add bleed% for pouncing longer

credit to mrdbear aswell

[thin mantle]

It’s not supposed to, bleed damage effects the rate of blood lost, blood is it’s own health value and drains at a rate determined by the bleed damage applied to it, this multiplier deteriorated over time constantly.
The value of the rate increases is calculated by the damage value of the attack applying the bleed relative to the bleed damage multiplier of the attack, pounce is the only attack in the game with a positive multiplier of 3x the base damage, every other attack is directly relative to its damage if it applies bleed at all. That’s why getting hit by a stego will cause you to bleed out faster than getting pounced once will, the damage applied is just that much greater that it exceeds the gap of even pounces multiplier, this has been one of the only consistently functioning systems since it was added and the calculations haven’t changed yet aside from adjusting damage values and bleed multipliers

So it’s basically impossible for consecutive pounces (which in more simple terms is simply more bleed rate being applied) to have no effect. The testing may be skewed by the fact that the drain rate may be getting out healed between pounces so that it appears there’s a negligible difference aside from keeping the bleed going from one Omni

Because the drain rate is always decreasing

[alpine plover]

ahhhhhhhhhhhh I can see that

Because stegos do make you bleed faster I notice and did not understand

[thin mantle]

Yeah, which is intended

[alpine plover]

I was so mind blown by stego bleed i was like wth

[thin mantle]

It's a much harder hitting animal that impales you lol

[alpine plover]

so bleed does more % based of %dmg done?

[thin mantle]

No not necessarily

You're sorta onto it but not quite

[alpine plover]

as in a 50dmg bite from onmi sets a low% of bleed but a 1300 stego swing adds high %bleed

[dusky surge]

Bleed damage scales with raw damage

So yes

But there's a single exception, that's omni's pounce

Which does 3x the regular bleed of any other attack

[thin mantle]

Bloodpool percentage isn't directly effected by bleed damage, bleed damage effects the drain rate of that Bloodpool percentage, which is determined by the base damage of the attack with the exception of pounce at a 3x multi

[dusky surge]

And all of this will be out the window with U6.5 because every bleed attack is going to have different bleed values

[thin mantle]

Which should honestly change....carno and deino bite....etc
Should definitely be lower

[thin mantle]

Yup!

[alpine plover]

yeah cause a carno bite while running and not stopping can kill a omni I didnt understand that

but I pounced and the bleed wasnt even close to that

[thin mantle]

It would require you to entirely exhaust yourself and be near starving for a single bite to bleed you to death, but yeah it can happen

[alpine plover]

yeah

for sure i did it on low water

[thin mantle]

yeah omni isn't supposed to deal drastically more bleed than other animals, just drastically more relative bleed

Unfortunately this perception is skewed because so many animals are far larger than it

[alpine plover]

So the next patch they spoke up bleed mods is this considered a buff for omni?

[thin mantle]

Against anything in it's relative weigtclass pounce is terrifyingly strong, even against animals in teno's range it only takes 3 good ones

[thin mantle]

God I hope not

That would be hilarious

A buff is genuinely the last thing omni needs

It's in such a balanced state rn

[dusky surge]

I can bet real money it's getting buffed to the nines

Because of all of the omni-based outcry

[thin mantle]

Oh for sure

That'll last for an update and the game will be hell for 7 months

[slim dragon]

Omni's pounce will deal 8x bleed damage in next update

[thin mantle]

But it'll get toned back eventually

[slim dragon]

Also it will be faster than carno and be bumped up to 1000 hp and buck will be removed

[alpine plover]

Yo aslong as carnos arent merking me and I saw pachy stun being removed omni might be more safe tbh

*carno hit box

[thin mantle]

Pachy will be unchanged against omni

[slim dragon]

Pachy's stun isn't removed on omnis, they'll still get knocked down

[thin mantle]

It'll still knock you over

If it didn't pachy would just die

[alpine plover]

oh really... 💔

[thin mantle]

Pachy would be literal fodder without CC

[slim dragon]

Yo what did you expect

[dusky surge]

Imagine if they removed pachy stunning omni

Jesus Christ instant trash tier

[thin mantle]

Wouldn't surprise me based on the absolute state of balance feedback for the past few months

[alpine plover]

but I feel like omni is trash tier rn

[dusky surge]

It really isn't

[thin mantle]

It's far from it

[alpine plover]

I mean for me I dont die much but my pack stays dead

[thin mantle]

Skill floor issue

[alpine plover]

the amount of time it takes before youre third party is crazy

[thin mantle]

Omni isn't a good starting animal if you want to tackle the absolute edge of their prey range

[thin mantle]

It's a great starter if you're only going for animals near your size

[alpine plover]

like this if the hit box is gone maybe better

[dusky surge]

carno issue, not omni issue

[thin mantle]

Also that hitbox has been fixed

[alpine plover]

I know it might be safer for us

so I hope

[dusky surge]

yea, that too

[alpine plover]

rn I feel like i can merk them if i dont get hit that far

I just was confused on bleed

or whats the best combo to do pounce longer or wait

[thin mantle]

Tbf carnos are still not that big of an issue against omni if you're playing optimally

Like carno's are only effective in one environment, unfortunately it's the only environment in the game that isn't claustrophobic and ugly

[dusky surge]

i mean

without carno's single hitbox issue

[thin mantle]

It's such an easy target without it

[dusky surge]

it's probably going to be really bad without any buffs

and i reckon it's not getting said buffs because people hate it rn

[thin mantle]

Spite balancing is one hell of a drug

[dusky surge]

Carno's base U6 stats are generally quite terrible lol

[thin mantle]

mhm

[alpine plover]

I feel like it should drop you and not do much dmg but stop at the target so you can get enough bites to = the charge dmg atm

not free one shots

[thin mantle]

Well that we agree on

Charge doing most of the damage has always been a problem to me

Makes it….ironically….good at exactly what it should suck at

Which is being a good larger game hunting tool

[alpine plover]

What would you suggest as a omni then?

pounce longer or for shorter

[thin mantle]

Shorter to start, longer when the target is low on stam

[alpine plover]

yeah thats what I figured so far

[halcyon granite]

what ? have you played carno ? imo its op when u play it correctly… you ambush they dead, simple as that

[dusky surge]

remove all the bugs associated with it and it's pretty trash

[halcyon granite]

what bugs tho ? besides the shitty hitbox the charge and bite has

[dusky surge]

silent footsteps, lunar-sized charge, instant acceleration, all of these bugs are what makes carno good. Again, poor based stats

[halcyon granite]

instant accelaration is not a bug

[dusky surge]

it's not meant to accelerate that fast

it can quite literally go from standing still to charging in less than a second

carno has

• horrid stam
• terrible agility
• insane vulnerability to bleed
• weak stam regen unless specifically resting
• complete inability to operate in the water
• zero resistances

its ONE upside is the fact that its so bugged it makes up for this

U6.5, with all of its bugfixes, QoL and new roster addons will likely demonstrate just how terrible carno can be without relying on crutches with bugged mechanics

[halcyon granite]

Perhaps you are right, I dont really know since I never really struggled with carno this patch, the only thing id fix is the broken hitbox for charge and bite, and adjust the amount of time it takes to charge, Imo the charge should drain more stamina and deal less damage, its supposed to be a CC not a dmg dealer. dont forget you are an ambush predator, not an endurance hunter. personal opinion

[dusky surge]

carno should be an endurance hunter more than an ambush hunter imho

if you want it to be an ambush hunter, then let it charge instantly like it does now

because that's more suitable to an ambush hunter

you have an opens plains sprinter, that needs to build up speed to attack you, it's clearly not a good ambush hunter

in fact, everything you suggested for carno makes it a worse ambush hunter lol

almost like carno is designed better when its not designed to ambush

(to be clear, i think your suggestions are perfectly reasonable, but carno being an ambush hunter is clearly something it isn't, nor should it be)

[halcyon granite]

I agree with this.

[halcyon granite]

yea could be haha its just my opinion on how I would balance it based on the shitty rooster we have now

hope with new patch there will be a lot of changes all around

[dusky surge]

i generally just dont think carno is, or should be, an ambush hunter. I think a less damaging charge, actual acceleration and more stamina for running would be much better for it

[halcyon granite]

Sounds like a legacy carno to me, but yea could work better with the limited dinos we have rn

[dusky surge]

as the roster expands, it'll be necessary for carno to have more endurance

because we'll get stuff like allo

[obtuse ocean]

I got suprise that i could regen stam while trotting when i had a carno behind me trotting after me.

I was omni by the way

[halcyon granite]

yea in the year 2050

[dusky surge]

epic original joke

[halcyon granite]

totally original aye hahahah 👀

[alpine plover]

yo im testing what youre saying and its not doing nothing

even when the bleed is huge as im poucing this carno its only bleeding 1% at a time nothing is making my ponce add more bleed %

even with heavy bleed on them while pouncing hes bleeding by 1% and when we arent pouncing hes bleeding by 1%

[thin mantle]

Yeah that’s normal

It’s the rate not the percentage per tick necessarily

The bleed ticks increase in frequency based on damage

[alpine plover]

I am trying it out but im not seeing a difference at all from 99% bleed to 20% bleed it just ticking 1% slow and the same

maybe its ticking faster ill start timing it from 1 pounce to 50%

to a full longer bounce to 50%

see what gets the bleed to 50% faster

[sacred zodiac]

whats actually so broken about carno hitbox

i dont get hit by it that often playing as omni, whats going on lol

(reply with ping pls)

[tall bronze]

The hitbox for it's ram ability is absurdly large. Enough to the point that Don outright said it was a problem. We know it's been fixed in 6.5 though, so that's good.

I've called it Texas Carno until it's fixed heehee

[lavish blaze]

Does anyone know when the evrima update will come?

[sacred zodiac]

Im so deadass when i tell you i have no idea about this lmao is there a video that demonstrates it?

[tall bronze]

I don't know of one that does ;o; I'm sure there's one somewhere though

I can say from experience though that it is very obvious Carno so much as exists near you and presses ram, BONK! Ya just die.

[sacred zodiac]

Idk i miss my ram pretty often, if i dont land right on the horns

I always either land it or miss i never had a moment where it was like “hmm.. i definitely should not have landed that”

[strange dust]

latency will come into play as well

[sacred zodiac]

I thought so.

[neon willow]

The issue is, even if the ram target is completely stationary (eg latency has no effect), the carno can land a ram that misses by nearly it's body length

[sacred zodiac]

that's interesting

because if thats true then the glitch owes me like 20 rams that i missed NARROWLY that i admit i did miss lmao

[strange dust]

i think there was someone (might be Kouga?) who did some testing and made an approximate visual representation of the hitbox, and it is RIDICULOUS

[neon willow]

It's possible the ram target had latency that made it appear to be near you, when in fact the player had already moved way far away

[sacred zodiac]

then thats a latency issue and not a hitbox issue?

oh wait

[strange dust]

it's both, but everything is affected by latency

[sacred zodiac]

i realize what you mean and no, when i got close enough my bites were landing just fine

[alpine plover]

That is broken

First clip 0:34..... slow it down if you have to

[sacred zodiac]

bro

[alpine plover]

the entire clip is insane

[sacred zodiac]

that carno is laggy as hell how is that even evidence

but i can see how a little latency issue can cause the carno to seem like it has aimbot lmao

[alpine plover]

it happens to me 24/7 doesn't matter

what am I supposed to do tell him to buy better internet ?

[dusky surge]

thats not latency

thats how big the hitbox actually is

[sacred zodiac]

that carno is definitely lagging bro

[alpine plover]

I dont even see him laggy

[sacred zodiac]

as a carno player, we dont teleport like that LMAO

[dusky surge]

first one didn't TP

[alpine plover]

yeah where is the TP ?

[dusky surge]

movement was very fluid

[sacred zodiac]

if thats fluid movement you definitely have some terrible wifi

[dusky surge]

what

[alpine plover]

can you tell us a timestamp on video ?????????

[dusky surge]

dude where tf does it TP

[alpine plover]

@sacred zodiac

Timestamp us pls

[sacred zodiac]

0:34

right where you said

[dusky surge]

he was off camera

[sacred zodiac]

as its turning

[alpine plover]

huh ?

[dusky surge]

he literally moved forwards'

[alpine plover]

I dont see a single tele on him lol

0:34 hes just running straight ?

[dusky surge]

i don't quite understand what point you're trying to make, anyway, the devs have acknowledged carno has a colossal hitbox and it's fixed next patch

like, it's not ping, the devs quite literally confirmed that's how big the hitbox is

[alpine plover]

even the second clip my death is so far

both deaths are insane

[distant torrent]

99% of my deaths to carno were like that. literally no escape unless you manage to somehow lose them in the jungle (unlikely if they have their volume turned up and can use their eyes)

[echo vault]

raptors hitbox is like 5ft behind him, its stupid

[dusky surge]

no it isnt

nothing is wrong with raptor's hitbox

[echo vault]

theres no way every dino can hit from insane distances and it not be our hitbox

[dusky surge]

its generally ping or stuff like carno having a celestial-body sized charge, raptor's hitbox is very accurate in a non-high ping environment

[echo vault]

litteraly every death has been from a bite 5ish ft away

[dusky surge]

what ping are you playing on lol

[echo vault]

50ping is my constant

na servers

2gigs a sec int speed, its not lag

and i do mean every death, i main raptor lol, i might be wrong but id be stupid to think its not hitbox related

[slim dragon]

It's not always you who is lagging... it can be the other player as well

[echo vault]

Ig but geez

[alpine plover]

Its the game

[echo vault]

like ive been saying i think its broke

[alpine plover]

idk bro I get 360 sniped by everything

[echo vault]

gotta see into the future ig lol

its hard being omni

def needs a rework

[alpine plover]

Carnos though they are the worst for me with that crazy hit box tenos maybe but I normally never struggle but carnos it doesn’t matter….

That’s 38 ping too so idk?

[thin mantle]

Omni needs a rework?!

Literally has never been in a better place design wise and NOW it needs a rework?

If you're talking about charge that's already been fixed

[alpine plover]

For the people who deal sure

[echo vault]

no, it hasnt.. carno is broke and the only people who say otherwise are abusing it

[alpine plover]

The way I look at it is everyone gets to spam there mouse 2 ability’s and have fun. Omni there is a giant skill gap you get bucked thrown to the floor ect ect not as fun as the rest you really gotta work hard on top of the long time to kill on top of the if you miss anything or make a single mistake you’re dead flat out

I bet anyone who picks up the game right now can play pachy or carno or teno or stego and be fine for hours

A new player picks Omni

He has to study and all that other stuff

The amount of punishment you risk and can take for using pounce that has a long time to kill anyways

Is crazy ….

When pachy can tap mouse 2 and kill

Time to kill differences are wild

And Omni has the longest with the most risky and bug and dangerous thing ever

I’d understand if the pounce was like doing something but bro your risking everything to land a single pounce to start a 5 minute timer 90% of the time the 5 minutes it takes to bleed out a good player who doesn’t even move lmao

Or you pick pachy teno croc stego carno

Spam your mouse 2 sure you miss sure you run your stem but you won’t die 90% of the time instantly

[thin mantle]

You're either new or behind then.
Carno's been fixed internally for awhile now, current charge is broken sure, but that's a non issue now

[thin mantle]

I fail to see how this is a problem

You're playing the attrition pack hunter with high maneuverability and speed

Yes your time to kill against targets far larger than you is quite high

And?

Like genuinely if you keep baiting you can bleed a teno with only 3-4 pounces worth of bleed buildup

Omni is strong, carno makes it be perceived as weak

Against the matchups it's optimized for and function....it's borderline too strong

But I'd go as far as to say this is the most balanced the animal has literally ever been in Evrima

[alpine plover]

I feel like he’s under powered

I only play Omni

[thin mantle]

So do I

[alpine plover]

Even with my best group it’s crazy difficult

[thin mantle]

All the other animals are either boring or unviable

[alpine plover]

And it’s not like we die

[thin mantle]

I'm not sure what your point is

[echo vault]

the charge is what i was talking about dude, and raptors pounce was made into trash, a second of bucking and no stam, that means death, literaly anything else can fight still with no stam

[thin mantle]

you have 3 seconds of active pouncing while bucking before you're knocked off, tap pounce till the target is lower on stam then prolong your pounces as a finisher, play smarter don't just use your abilities on animals with the tools to negate them when they're healthy expecting them to work.

And yeah charge has been fixed

So going forward we can ignore that

[echo vault]

it hasnt but whatever

[thin mantle]

Again, it's been fixed internally

It's no longer an issue that needs to be stressed

[echo vault]

wdym internally

[alpine plover]

It’s gonna be fixed he means

They know and have addressed it

[thin mantle]

In the dev branch it's already been adjusted to functional levels

Awhile ago actually

[echo vault]

so its on its way?

[thin mantle]

Yep next update

[alpine plover]

Right now it’s busted but upcoming it’s gonna be fixed

[echo vault]

thats all u had to say lol

[thin mantle]

That's what I did say

[echo vault]

and it really doesnt feel like 3sec

[thin mantle]

Sorry

[echo vault]

and when?

[thin mantle]

Like I can't stress enough just how balanced omni is....it's literal only issue is carno

Even with current buck it's literally fine

[echo vault]

u said its a non issue, but it still is for now

[thin mantle]

Because buck defines stages of a hunt, you can't use pounce to it's fullest effect

[alpine plover]

And fluff my point was I think Omni should be reworked for a more fun version of it not that this version is bad in the proper hands it’s good but it’s not fun playing try hard the way you need to all the time basically when every other class is so easy compared especially with time to kill on them all being crazy lower

[dusky surge]

idk how you can possibly rework omni to be an animal that fulfils its current role better

[thin mantle]

Oh teno and dryo are by far a harder animal to play, and I honestly think this is the most fun omni has ever been to play...but unless we actually have ideas for a complete rework this is just noise, got any ideas?

[alpine plover]

Like for instance I love charging as carno I love bashing things as pachy I love grabbing people as croc I love letting things hang off my tail as stego I hate pouncing and losing all my stam and running around for 3-4 minutes

[thin mantle]

Then omni's playstyle doesn't appeal to you

[dusky surge]

you pointed out 3 of the most powerful animals in the game, and stego

all of which are designed for instant reward

[thin mantle]

I don't like lunging....deino is not fun for me....I wouldn't say on THOSE grounds it needs a rework...I'd say I don't like it

[echo vault]

id feel better about the bucking mechanic if deino could be ''bucked'' out of XD maybe not as a small dino but ykwim

[alpine plover]

If they can balance a way for you to pounce for longer and actually be able to use your ability a lot longer cling to things longer man wouldn’t that be fun ?

Balanced though

[thin mantle]

Deino needs more preventative and reactionary counterplay instead of a mechanic that disables it's ability

[dusky surge]

i mean, would it?

[thin mantle]

No, I don't think that would be more fun at all

[dusky surge]

you're holding RMB for longer

that's not particularly mega engaging

[thin mantle]

Because all I'm doing is holding a keystroke slightly longer

[alpine plover]

Doesn’t carno pachy and crocs hold mouse two ?

[thin mantle]

It's also a direct nerf ironically

[alpine plover]

Are they not fun ?

[thin mantle]

Yes, they're also different playables, not sure how that's at all relevant

[dusky surge]

their RMB ability is also ENTIRELY different

pachy, carno, deino all have a very "hit = instant reward" style

omni is about the slowburn

[alpine plover]

Idk you can make a poll I bet omni is the least fun out of all

Hands down

Every other roll feels right

[thin mantle]

A poll in the current meta would be useless

Because ofcourse omni is the most unfun....it's currently the primary victim of a gamebreaking bug carno has...and it has the largest playerbase next to deino

[dusky surge]

people liked old pounce because it did a billion damage, a billion bleed and wasn't punishable if the omni was competent

people dislike new pounce because there's more to it than that

[alpine plover]

Nah I don’t Ike that either

[dusky surge]

Worst part about omni is it has to coexist with current carno

[alpine plover]

I want a system where you pounce and you’re locked in for x amount of time doesn’t cost stam and you know exactly how much bleed you apply per pounce for instance give it a cool down like dryo let’s say example 5 seconds bucking doesn’t cost stam for either but cuts the pounce time neither cost stam both sides but omni has cool down now rotating omni is necessary bucking is actually used and necessary but it’s fun and you can balance the bleed a full pounce 5s x amount of bleed if they bucked 2 seconds x amount of bleed no middle numbers just 2 can only pounce when above a certain stamina thresh hold idk

At least we get full pounces and bucking is actually used…

Right now you can avoid both and do both

[calm ibex]

omni should just be less sweaty honestly, a way to "see" your targets blood pool would be a good way to achieve that

[alpine plover]

Legit you could never buck and Omni will pounce for .1 seconds

Both mechanics are useless

If played that way

And for the most part that’s the proper way

Boring they never buck and you only pounce for .1 second

How is that fun for anyone

[dusky surge]

if they don't buck, you can hang on for ages

idk what you mean by "never buck"

[alpine plover]

Why would I though I’ll lose so much stam the second they do why risk it

[dusky surge]

because baiting them to buck can be beneficial

current omni relies heavily on the stamina economy of the other animal. The more they buck, the more stam they use. The less stam they have, the less they can buck. The more bleed you do, the slower their stam regens

[alpine plover]

Yeah 50 different scenarios 50 different numbers and anyone who ever picks up omni must know all of this

[dusky surge]

this system also sounds like a ton of numbers and systems to keep track of

[alpine plover]

It’s not

[dusky surge]

how

[alpine plover]

Locked in pounce animation x amount of time if they buck half it you get two numbers to balance and done

Pounce is on cooldown

[dusky surge]

wait

no that sounds horrible wtf

locked in for a certain amount of time will mean you ALWAYS die to stuff like stego

it knows when you dismount and pre-emptively swings

also hard cooldowns should generally be avoided

[alpine plover]

Nah the dismount animation will be easy to fix and actually allow safe dismount

Half my dismounts are glitched and kill me

Cause the timing is wild it feels like the game can’t keep up

The pounce should be hard to land but safety after locked in animation 2 numbers full pounce half pounce from being bucked off no stam loss but a cooldown on pounce and balance the two numbers of bleed for example 5 seconds = full pounce , 3 from being bucked off = half pounce balance both the bleed dmg and modifier on both balance how many of those should kill other classes and how long it should take that makes everyone feel happy

If we all knew both numbers

And knew 20 pounces kill a full stego

35 half pounces kill a full stego

Only two raptors can pounce a target

You only need to balance the two numbers and the pounce cooldown of 8 raptors figure out how many pounces should kill everything in the game and the time based off what they assume is enough time ect ect (full pounce half pounce and cool down ) we get to see our raptors actually using the pounce animation they get to actually use buck you balance the 3 numbers it’s fun

I’d rather do less damage but get to see my raptor clinging to something for longer

That is why you play croc to get to drag that thing down in the water pachy to see the broken leg carno to see you knock and ambush the thing down stego to smash ect ect current Omni if you can balance it so we get to actually cling to things for longer even if the dmg is less I feel like it would be fun

Not a Omni rework cause it sucks but a rework so it’s more fun for everyone new players included

[unborn iris]

This is the real problem. Dismount doesn't work or is too easily affected by terrain for weird reasons.
I agree that it would be more fun and interactive if pounce was meant to hold a little longer, allow stuff the chance to rub you off on terrain or get help from something else.
There was a point where pounce worked almost perfectly and we didn't have this impact pounce which I feel like makes it way too easy to hit faster/smaller dinos. They were trying to make the directional dismount work and completely ruined the pounce somehow.

I think they went from client side hit detection on pounce to server side. Not real sure why.

[strange dust]

@white crest that particular diet is broken for every dino\

[white crest]

intresting, well I know what I'm using! XD

[strange dust]

the stam decay debuff you're supposed to get from poor diet is actually a buff

[thin mantle]

@latent sorrel Deino Ptera and Carno all lack counters…not everything requires a counter, especially since that newly created counter then becomes the new stego…an animal lacking counters…

This is also just a game that doesn’t necessitate counters, because it’s a survival game and not a deathmatch.

Also nothing is forcing you to fight a stego when you lack the numbers to take it on, if you’re short of 6+ omnis or aren’t comfortable soloing a stego on deino, don’t attack it.

[strange dust]

Hard agree. Seems to be working as intended for an animal that size

Of the dinos that need nerfing, steg is not among them

[thin mantle]

Mhm, ironically stego is probably one of the most balanced animals we have

[strange dust]

Altho i guess there's an argument to be made regarding weight when not fg

The growth/weight relationship is super weird, resulting in a dino that's twice as heavy as it looks and should be

Not sure how if growth and weight gain are linear or not currently, but either way some adjustments need to be made at the very least

[hollow canyon]

@alpine plover you don't kill them in 5 headshots because 5 headshots are not enough to kill a Stego, you'd need 7

also - Deino is already more so too close to being able to solo kill a Stego rather than too far

this match up is not meant to be in favour of Deino

[alpine plover]

true, i was mainly replying to the person above

[hollow canyon]

hmm

[alpine plover]

im not much of a deino player but i have been able to 1v1 stegos, the only problem i encounter personally is the hitbox

[hollow canyon]

I mean idk what I can tell that person - not many of the playables currently available are meant to be good at killing Stego

[alpine plover]

most other deinos say the same thing but again you usually see them butt-riding stego rather than being face to face with them

[hollow canyon]

I've been able to 1v1 Stegos but it's rare and typically requires outplaying the Stego player

which is how it probably should be

[alpine plover]

^^ which should definitely end in favor of the stego

[hollow canyon]

I personally don't see much of an issue with this match up

it's Stego-favoured but doable for Deino in the right circumstances

which is how it should be

[alpine plover]

me neither, again, i was replying to the o/p above

[hollow canyon]

fair

I also don't think that most other dinosaurs are well balanced against each other either

I just disagree with that whole post

[alpine plover]

true, the only issue i see is the deino player not knowing where or how to fight one..plus the butt-riding, again

[hollow canyon]

yea but that's a skill issue, it's up to Deino players to play this encounter correctly

if they pick a fight they can't win it's on them

[alpine plover]

when it comes to stego damage, id say it doesnt need a nerf. as you said previously, most of the roster isnt really fit to fight stego or deino

[hollow canyon]

yea

I don't think it needs any nerfs really

I actually expect the current Stego to get completely rolled over by T.rex when it comes out

[alpine plover]

same here but apexes and their stats are an entiiirely different discussion xD

[hollow canyon]

true

[alpine plover]

i just wonder how deino would fit into that since it was originally planned to be a threat to other apexes

[strange dust]

that was the original intention for deino? thought it was just to make drinking/crossing water more dangerous for the rest of the roster

[alpine plover]

when it comes to the water, yes

apexes included, but if a deino is on land it wouldn't be the same

[golden coral]

Might just end up with stego run away, deino swim away. Spino is said to take on deino, and it's the only one that can really go after deino anyway. And well, stego can probably be made to run, in some way, shape or form.

[alpine plover]

true..im excited to see a deino-spino matchup

[latent sorrel]

You can't beat a deino close to water unless you are a stego.

They are extremely powerful but it's possible to kill a deino if you get it away from water or bleed its stamina out.

The issue I have with Steggo is that even on water its almost impossible to kill them.

Fair that they can kill most things on land. But they can also enter water and swing 100% full speed in water.

I think 3-4 carnos should be able to bring down a stego but they are just so tanky and within 1-2 swings kills adult anything.

I find that most people that play stego love that it's OP and just vote down things. I have played Stego, and It's fun. But it doesn't mean it isn't a rediculous advantage.

I think if there was something to actually counter them like Trex, or if a Deino could take them by water edges then it would be a much more valid claim to say they can kick ass on land.

Fact is, 4-5 adult Deinos often get wiped before a single stego dies on a waterbank. Tell me that's purely skill based when most of those players are 400+ hours

[hollow canyon]

That is a skill issue and 400 hours is not much in this game

[alpine plover]

its not a damage thing. its usually a hitbox and the fact stego can go torso-deep into the riverbank and still be able to swing.

if you're a deino, and you know how to play it, you would most likely win. that's what happens most of the time for me, anyway. the damage-versus-damage on the two is quite fair and like aken said earlier, shouldnt be tipped in deinos favour.

[hollow canyon]

consider I take down Stegos solo at times 3-4 Deinos not taking down one Stego is a massive skill issue

[alpine plover]

i have about 1100 hours on the game, mainly land dinos. i am still capable of beating most stegos as well..so id also consider it a skill issue

plus, if a stego is so far into the water, it makes it a lot easier to get headshots in from the side..

[golden coral]

That's absolutely a skill issue if 4-5 adult deinos somehow struggle with taking out a single stego. They can do that on land if they want to with those numbers. Also stego can be hunted by omnis, and deinos, and killed by other stegos for that matter, just like how deino can only really reliably be killed by other deinos if it plays with at least one braincell active. If you want to talk op, deino is more so than stego, overall. And no, carnos should hardly be a threat to a stego, they don't have the power to do that.

[thin mantle]

Stego's swing hitbox is also insanely tight

[alpine plover]

Fix raptor pounce animation & dismount. Make bleed easier to track or something more reliable!

[golden coral]

What do you mean with fix pounce and dismount?

[alpine plover]

it bugs when you are at certain levels and or it makes you awkwardly stand next to them.

[golden coral]

Ah, okay. Didn't know there were still issues with the pounce, last I heard it was working quite well, but I guess not then.

[alpine plover]

sometimes you land next to them and die

or if the terrain is weird you dont move at all

[granite notch]

#balance-feedback @wicked quarry I agree with your idea, because indeed i do not believe irl herbis should stay any longer near a dead body. Only, maybe 5 minutes is to short but they should start to be sick if they stay near a rotten corpse for 5 minutes. Yeah, i said rotten, not only dead or maybe they get sickness effect after 10 minutes near the dead body.

[dusky surge]

me when i can't nest because a troodon died on top of my nest and makes me throw up

fun experience

[obtuse ocean]

Just saw a troodon pounce a galli, it for sure was problem there : P lol

[golden coral]

How so?

[obtuse ocean]

It looked horrible from the troodons side, like the galli was 10 meter away and ur still in pounce animation

[cosmic idol]

can you make it so carnos make a sound when they running up to you as they are silent right now

[alpine plover]

@latent sorrel we killed 4 stegos and 4 tenos as a pack of 4 raptors nobody even died on our side

[alpine nest]

@alpine plover well its pretty easy to knock a raptor out of the air. i figured it out after like 2 minutes of test fighting :/

[primal token]

Anyone in stress test know how much cerato weights?

[unborn iris]

1300kg

[heavy lagoon]

Is teno getting a nerf?

In the next update

[thin mantle]

For some reason yes

[limber delta]

Lmao teno is probably the worst non tiny tier dino already, at least Utah is ridiculously easy to grow and a good juve killer. It doesn’t need a buff but it sure as hell doesn’t need a nerf either

[distant torrent]

I genuinely wish to be given insight by the one who thought a teno nerf was a good idea

[keen plover]

Tenos speed was nerfed (ever so slightly, but cera now runs you down in the open since they both have the same run time and cera is faster).
Also tail slam damage was nerfed

From my experience so far with teno, 2 Ceras will just maul you in the open

You still have the ability to kill them both, but they can also lock your stamina via puking. Tenos can't run when they spot 2 unless by a rock. So you're forced to stand your ground

Also cera has no stamina cost on charge bite so

Yeah, it's mainly a stamina issue for teno in fights while also still having no chance to flee

[limber delta]

They should up the speed of teno back and then increase its kick damage, that way kick is the damage option while tail is the reliable option

[unborn iris]

Teno is about as close to perfect as any dino in the roster, I think. Teno already got mauled if 2 carnos found them in the open, if the carnos had half a braincell together. Add another teno and things change a lot. Can't imagine much different vs cerato.

[distant torrent]

charge bite should cost stamina imo

[unborn iris]

Yeah, that seems like a weird choice.

All other attacks like that cost stam.

[distant torrent]

the problem is cera isn’t supposed to be a hunter. It’s supposed to be a scavenger. there’s something wrong if ceras can successfully hunt things like teno (not counting people who are afk, slow juvies, etc.)

[unborn iris]

Yeah, cera seems to have a lot of stam.

[distant torrent]

I initially though cera would be slower than teno but be stronger than it (while also not being able to be knocked down with the slams and kicks) to dissuade tenos from running them down and attacking without reason, though not making it impossible to kill them

[obtuse ocean]

I mean 2 carnos should maul a teno in the open,even 1v1 should be favored to carno. But again right now skill is not in the game unless 1v1. Its purly numbers

[limber delta]

Scavengers you’re thinking of are fast and stealthily take bodies. Cera is a bully. A brawler, a mini juggernaut. It’s simply something you’re not meant to fight in general unless you have a huge advantage. I’ve seen that tenos will fight ceras instead of escaping to rocks or rivers, or hell even trees. This works for carno, since you’ll never outrun one anyway. But once people learn that cera isn’t an easy fight, then they’ll flight.

[unborn iris]

Why should 1v1 favor the carno?

[obtuse ocean]

Is not carno like alot bigger? And its supose to be good vs small tiers

[unborn iris]

Is teno a small tier?

[limber delta]

You mean teno on that 1v1 part right? One of them can escape the other and it sure as hell isn’t teno

[unborn iris]

And it's 200kg bigger.

[obtuse ocean]

Cera is small mid/big small ish

If its only 200kg bigger yes,then it should be evenly

[limber delta]

Imagine if carno could actually reliably 1v1 teno good lord that’d be awful 😂 ‘oh look a carno, I can’t outrun it, I can’t beat it, aaaand I’m already in the character select screen’ 😂😂😂

[obtuse ocean]

Just like everthing in the game? Carno is the fastest,does not mean you can kill a troodon with easy

[limber delta]

One’s small and agile the other is a giant walking meal

[unborn iris]

I reserve judgement until i get a personal view of the matchup. The tryhards normally figure out a lot of stuff that completely change balance ideas between dinos.

But I feel like teno vs carno right now is in a good spot.

[distant torrent]

cera shouldn’t be able to run a teno down and kill it. that’d make it good at hunting. a teno shouldn’t have to even think about running to a rock or river to get away from a cera. imo, cera should be slower and a little stronger with less stam. that way a teno can still escape without hassle to avoid confrontation

[limber delta]

Yeah that’s my point. What exactly are you disagreeing with?

[unborn iris]

Yeah I was surprised they made cera so fast. And specifically lowered teno to be slower.

[limber delta]

To be fair cera is a LOT smaller than in legacy

[obtuse ocean]

Carno is crap vs small, so easy to outmanouver as omni. Even tho its supose to maul it in the open

[unborn iris]

Well, like you said. It's supposed to be the corpse bully, not chasing stuff down to kill it. It shouldn't Need to be that fast. Should be better at standing it's ground vs stuff.

[limber delta]

Just aim better lol I don’t have this issue

[obtuse ocean]

I have no problem getting away from a carno as omni,not that im gonna fight it either. But i honestly tho i would fear carnos in the open

[limber delta]

I think its speed is fair. I think teno’s speed is the issue.

[unborn iris]

You want teno faster?

[limber delta]

Yeah

[distant torrent]

I guess I can see their intention (which might be to prevent tenos from chasing down ceras to kill them), but that could be fixed by removing the slam stun to cera and potentially buffing them

[unborn iris]

I love teno. That would be fun for a few weeks. But I feel like teno definitely doesn't need a buff.

[limber delta]

It got nerfed in the stress test

The speed

[unborn iris]

Tail slam damage?

[obtuse ocean]

I tho cera was gonna be slower and more tankier , it looks really fast

[distant torrent]

same

[unborn iris]

That was a couple tenths of a km/h right? What is teno speed in 6?

[limber delta]

I can’t remember but if teno had its speed back it could definitely escape ceras on equal stam, especially with its exceptional trot speed

[unborn iris]

Yeah, wouldn't take much I guess.

[limber delta]

And honestly teno should either have kick damage increased or max stam increased

[obtuse ocean]

Yea i tho it was gonna be more like solitary playstyle. ,i sorta feel like a carno when looking at the playstyle

[limber delta]

Cera should maul it if the teno chooses to fight but if teno has max stam it should be able to run away

[unborn iris]

Yeah, teno is 40.5 right now. It dropped to 40.3? or 2

[distant torrent]

I thought it was going to be solo or in pairs because of how much food I thought they’d need

[obtuse ocean]

Like if a carno killed something and a cera shows up,he just said give me that food or brawl me. And that would end bad for the carno : P

[obtuse ocean]

Yea same:P

[distant torrent]

at least the update hasn’t been pushed out yet so there’s a chance it could be changed. hopefully they take a good look at teno and cera

[limber delta]

Also as a bully I feel like cera should have high resistance to crowd control, such as carno charge, teno kick, deino grab etc. for the first two it should act as a stagger rather than a knockdown

[obtuse ocean]

And its like just as fast as a teno? Thats insane:P

[distant torrent]

I actually thought cera wouldn’t be affected by stuns or staggers at all because I was assuming it’d be a tough little slow thing you don’t really want to mess with lol

[obtuse ocean]

Exactly what i tho aswell

[limber delta]

Yeah but I can’t see a carno charging something 2/3rds its size and IT getting stunned 💀 cera should just be able to hold its ground well, like a sumo wrestler

[obtuse ocean]

And i know punch wrote that cera can destroy a carno:P But after lookikg at videos i dont know how

[distant torrent]

I was imagining neither would be stunned. the cera would just take normal ram damage (I guess unless the carno managed to ram its head)

[limber delta]

The trick is to land a bite bite and spam regular bites when it pukes, easily does most of carno’s hp

[limber delta]

That wouldn’t really make much sense though, the carno is a train. SOMETHING’S getting the short end of the hard-impact stick

You know when a carno stuns another carno and instead of falling down it just gets staggered for a shorter time, but stays on its feet? I imagine that for cerato

[distant torrent]

I can see that

[obtuse ocean]

Arent cera taking reduce damage to heavy hits while eating?

[stark knoll]

To small hits, yea

[obtuse ocean]

Ahh small it was

[queen dome]

i think it goes up to raptor bite for damage ignoring

[obtuse ocean]

Ah ok!

[drifting thorn]

You guys remove Stun from pachy?????? HOW they will survived a Carno attack?

[golden coral]

Fracture and run, I believe.

[drifting thorn]

fracture without stun u get at least 2 bites and if u do not leg fracture ur dead ...

[golden coral]

Aim well I guess... But you can juke a carno that got body fractured I'm pretty sure, at least with fixed hitbox and all.

[fierce creek]

Wow I can't believe they would nerf pachy and give the small game hunter thats 1300kg heavier an advantage

[dusky surge]

fracture and run, i've played the new pachy, its completely easy to escape a carno

the stun was only used to bully and win

[drifting thorn]

So what about Carno ramp? AOE STUN THAT TAKES 50% OF UR HP AND HE RUN AWAY???Now if ever play pachy answer my question how will u survive a Carno Attack on a pachy? u cant run u cant figth ???

[dusky surge]

you can still counter the charge with your ram, or just, y'know, dodge it

the way to survive is literally just ram it, they get fractured, you win

if they continue, fracture them again

[drifting thorn]

Do u ever play pachy? or u are trolling?

[dusky surge]

why would i go out of my way to troll you

yes, i've played the new pachy

the old pachy was ridiculously OP, the new pachy feels far more balanced

[drifting thorn]

if charge with ur ramp with no stun he will bite ur hea 3 times are u trolling iam asking again before i block u for idiot

[dusky surge]

i am not trolling, no need to be rude

[drifting thorn]

u are being passive aggresive with stuped answers pretending to be helping pachy with no stun on THE EVEN IF U FRATURED U WILL GET BITE on the head

[dusky surge]

you actually take less damage on headbites as a pachy, so it's more preferable for them to bite you on the head

you take the most damage to your body as a pachy, because the pachy has an armoured head

but when i was playing pachy without stuns, i didn't struggle at all fracturing the carno and escaping

[golden coral]

If the carno bites your head, you're better off, pachy takes less damage there. So ideally you'd "tank" a headshot while getting the fracture, then maybe take one on base of tail or if you're quick enough, tip of tail. Then proceed to run. If you got a legbreak, you're good, if you got a body break, you might have to juke for a little before the carno runs out of stam, and if you got a head break, use the limited vision to either get another, "better" break as well, or be tricky and escape by luring the carno.

[drifting thorn]

its takes 2 or maybe 3 bites from a Carno on ur hea to die i play this game everyday do not tell me how many bites i can take

[golden coral]

4 bites from my calculations

Unless I am off on either carno damage or pachy head multiplier

[dusky surge]

correct, yea

if all the bites are headbites, it takes 4 bites

[drifting thorn]

u can not fractured and leave without stun unless the carno is stuped or u fractured the leg on ur first hit and that is only possible if u are attacking him if he is engaging on u with a ramp ur dead without stun

[dusky surge]

yes you can, i've done it, you haven't even played it yet

[golden coral]

Well yes, if the carno rammed you then you are most likely going to die. Hence, juke the charge, retaliate, run away. The massive hitbox will be fixed, that should help juking the charge.

[drifting thorn]

Yea u are just wasting my time...

[dusky surge]

of course i am

i didnt expect you to take a word seriously once you had decided i was wrong

i'm trying to be helpful, by the way

[golden coral]

In any case, the stun on every hit from pachy was bad, we've seen how that goes. At the least, things can be worked on from here, but pachy can no longer just stunlock things.

[dusky surge]

pachy in my experience felt effective against carno, using its agility to move around it and then counterattack and fracture

[golden coral]

If it turns out that pachy really can not handle carno, things will most likely be changed again. Same goes for any other playable.

[drifting thorn]

My qustion was how a pachy survived a carno attack pretending i see it coming what u usually do is trade ur ramp with his but u also stun him so after the trade u can leave without getting bite but without stun there is no chance u will get 2 bites on the head and when u turn 2 more ur done

[dusky surge]

i thought pachy was going to get trashed on by carno, but in my fights against even experienced carnos, it was a sinche to survive

[tall bronze]

Maybe now I won't feel bad for playing Pachy

[dusky surge]

the only difference now without stun is you can't stunlock it to death

[golden coral]

I don't know if they changed the specific charge meets ram interaction, you'd have to ask someone else for that. But at the least, you'd have given the carno a head fracture from that (don't recall how it went for pachy in that trade). But you shouldnt be trading that charge/ram with the carno unless you're desperate honestly, your first go to should be to juke the charge and then retaliate, or keep juking if you're near trees or a rock or so.

[drifting thorn]

if he come out a bush infront of u that is ur only choice what game are playing???

[golden coral]

If you didn't consider that there might be something hiding and jumping you, that's on you.

[drifting thorn]

lol

[golden coral]

I would argue I am the better survival player between the two of us if you do not consider ambushes, or just generally being attacked and having your head on a swivel and all that. Especially if you're going solo as a smaller playable.

And you can still react and fracture the carnos head, limiting it's vision and giving you a chance to avoid it and find some kind of hiding place.

You might not get the stun, but a head fracture also lowers the damage as far as I know, so not only will the carno not see you very well, it also will do less damage with it's bite if it manages to hit you.

[drifting thorn]

Kid plz anybody get ambush in this game everyday especially by carno in center or any open field just stop talking and go role play and keep dreaming

[golden coral]

So again, you can still retaliate, you just don't have the same ability to keep fighting like you used to, at least not solo. If you got a group, that carno is still probably going to die to the lot of you, even if it can now fight back properly.

[golden coral]

Yes, I am aware most players are quite bad, that is not an excuse for bad balancing or otherwise bad play.

[drifting thorn]

Yea u are 12 and very good at the game ^^

[golden coral]

You'd have to add quite a bit to that number to get my age, but I will grant you that I am quite capable when it comes to making smart decisions for survival in this game yes. That tends to be useful when I'm not always as good at the fighting as needed.

[thin mantle]

You know when someone tries to call you on your age without addressing your points they’ve given up lol

[tall bronze]

It's on the same level of insulting avatars. Like okay.....doesn't have anything to do with the topic but alright.

[thin mantle]

I also just love the ironclad bastion of an argument “you’re wrong because you’re 12”

Like what if the 12 yr old is unironically right, actually now that I think about it that’s a very heavily backfiring statement

Because that means a 12 year old beat you in an argument

[halcyon elk]

It would technically be the martyrdom achievement as the 12 year old gonna get banned

[thin mantle]

The pinnacle of achievement

The alpha 6th grader

[halcyon elk]

If I lose an argument to a 6th grader. That 6th grader has my respect

[unborn iris]

I reserve my vote on omni balance until I can get my hands on it. It is one of those playables that's proven very small changes can have a huge impact, and I feel like making small changes has historically been this balance team's glaring flaw.

[alpine plover]

Only that what it got isn't small changes in any way. They're huge

[unborn iris]

Exactly.

[strong solar]

100% you should be punished when missing the pounce. It can’t be argued as unfair either, as missing a pounce is on the player and not the animal/balance to the animal

[fierce creek]

@topaz elm Cera is faster then teno and it does have the higher bleed resistance

[distant torrent]

its attacks unfortunately don’t cost any stam either…

[topaz elm]

You forget to mention how tenonto has an enormous amount of stamina and 2 stun abilities

[alpine plover]

bait the attacks

[alpine plover]

then headshot it

[topaz elm]

Also apparently cerato and tenonto are the same speed at 40.5 km/h

[fierce creek]

Teno got a speed nerf

[topaz elm]

Oh really? I wasn’t aware of that

[distant torrent]

tenos tail slam also got a damage nerf apparently

[topaz elm]

To be fair it still completely knocks cerato to the ground

Letting teno get 2-3 kicks in

[fierce creek]

Teno is 40.3 now btw

[topaz elm]

40.5 to 40.3 is pretty minor but still slower I guess

[distant torrent]

cera could just run. if the teno chases, I doubt it’ll have enough stam to actually be a threat to the cera once/if it catches up. I’m not able to test the stam for cera and teno in 6.5 yet, so I can’t say it’s true and I definitely won’t say it’s true

[topaz elm]

But the point im trying to make is that they showed cerato off as a “stand your ground” bully dino that doesn’t get pushed around

From the gameplay I don’t know if it’s just people figuring out cerato still or what but it seems fairly squishy

[fierce creek]

Oh yea I completly agree

Don't think increasing its weight is the solution though

[topaz elm]

All I’m going off of is videos I see such as Kav’s where multiple times he chases down packs of ceratos as a pair of tenontos

[alpine plover]

From the footage i’ve seen a good cera can beat a teno

You can bait tail slams cus cera is super agile

[topaz elm]

And in the same video the cerato pack idk if they killed a stego or what

But if cerato packs can kill a stego, one of the most brainless point and click creatures in the game, then tenonto should not be able to charge a cerato while it’s defending its turf

Then again a lot of it is player skill so we’ll have to see

[alpine plover]

I mean if cera can beat stego in packs how can it have a issue with teno

[fierce creek]

Bacteria bite needs a buff

[alpine plover]

bacteria bite is really strong

[topaz elm]

Exactly that’s what I’m questioning but apparently it’s an issue

[fierce creek]

Like the effect it has on stam/food/water Cera shouldnt be a great hunter

[alpine plover]

Bacteria bite is legit a stun move that can be spammed

[topaz elm]

Bacteria bite is strong if cerato packs pile on

Tenontos tail range doesn’t allow that unless in a group

[fierce creek]

Cera shouldnt be hunting things like Teno/carno imo

[topaz elm]

When it comes to carno they don’t have a choice

[alpine plover]

This is a moment were the only thing you can do is wait till you can get your hands on it, multiple stress testers have told me other stress testers are dog feces at the game, so you can only judge balance when you get your hands on it.

[fierce creek]

Cera should be how it was described but it just isnt that atm

[alpine plover]

Kev is one of the best players from what I heard

[topaz elm]

That is a fair take on it, and I cannot fault that line of thinking

[alpine plover]

And keep in mind some of these guys both suck at the game and have just got their hands on cerato

[topaz elm]

But from the way they marketed cerato, when it is standing it’s ground by a corpse, it should be one of the hardest things to get away from whatever it’s eating

[fierce creek]

Bacteria effect shouldnt be something that helps in the fight itself as much but something that can messup your gameplay for the next 30 min just cause you decided to mess with it

[alpine plover]

Yeah, that makes sense

Bacteria bite is just used as a stun mid fight

[fierce creek]

yep

[alpine plover]

I mean it does help cerato defend itself, which is good since it's meant to be a brawler.

without bacteria bite I think carno would destroy it

[topaz elm]

%100

[fierce creek]

100% im fine with the stun

[topaz elm]

What I would like to see with the charge bite is like what they showed in one of the early concept art, where cerato like grabs your back leg, bites down and thrashes

[alpine plover]

Teno should have the edge over cera so cera is encouraged to not hunt it

[topaz elm]

But tenonto should not be able to push around cerato on its own terms

[alpine plover]

Cera is faster though

[topaz elm]

Cerato shouldn’t be able to over extend but neither should teno

[topaz elm]

Isn’t it by 0.2 km/h?

[alpine plover]

yeah

[fierce creek]

Cera is in a weird place imo though

[alpine plover]

Still it's unfair to get outrun by something that can hold its own against you, and teno is a herbivore so it should have the edge.

[topaz elm]

Cerato very much is, i feel likes it’s weaker than we expected but it’s still in testing

[fierce creek]

Like the charged bite doesnt feel like a great offensive tool to me

[alpine plover]

how much damage does it do

[fierce creek]

300 at max

[topaz elm]

The whole deal of cerato is a defensive creature right?

[fierce creek]

Ye

[alpine plover]

that's a ton of damage though

[topaz elm]

All it’s damage buffs come from standing you ground by your corpse

[fierce creek]

Doesnt have the buffs yet

[topaz elm]

Oh that makes a ton of sense

[alpine plover]

450 damage to the head vs teno is a 4 shot

[alpine plover]

Buffs aren't planned

[topaz elm]

Pretty sure teno can do something similar to cerato

[fierce creek]

punch just said that was idea they thought about but never 100% gonna be a feature

[alpine plover]

That's just something the devs told anth

[fierce creek]

?

[topaz elm]

Yes they are, they haven’t been implemented yet

[alpine plover]

When did they say that

[fierce creek]

Punch himself siad it in general

[alpine plover]

Oh, that's dumb to be honest.

[topaz elm]

Cerato gets a damage buff when chuffing by a kill and damage resistance while eating

Aka to help make player play defensively

[alpine plover]

Wouldn't ceras just hold bodies in their mouth 24/7 to force the buffs

and use it to hunt

[topaz elm]

They said it applied to small hits like things trying to harass and annoy you

[fierce creek]

Charged bite is great Def ability

[alpine plover]

cera already get's damage res while eating

[topaz elm]

Really?

[fierce creek]

ye

Omni bites do no damage to it

[topaz elm]

Oh yeah that was the point

[alpine plover]

Who said that?

Omni bite doing no damage sounds unfair

[fierce creek]

65 damage?

[topaz elm]

Plus cerato can’t vomit so you could just ignore Omni damage by eating a stego corpse

[fierce creek]

thats not that much

[alpine plover]

still it adds up when it's a whole pack, a whole pack of omnis doing 0 damage just looks dumb.

And it's unfair because now omni can't defend it's kills whatsoever when it clearly should be able to

[fierce creek]

It can still be bled through pounces although not much due to its high resistance

[alpine plover]

I don't think that's in game, who said that?

[fierce creek]

evryone

[topaz elm]

I believe punch

[fierce creek]

go ask gen

[alpine plover]

I know that's what makes it worse

[fierce creek]

Ive seen multiple people say omni bites do no damage

[alpine plover]

that's bad balance

[topaz elm]

Alright I’m going to bed

[alpine plover]

So basically 3 omnis can't do anything to cera

[alpine plover]

gn

[fierce creek]

Dont take it 100%

I've seen no actual proof of this happening in game

[distant torrent]

nothing’s going to stop that one cera from watching and waiting for an omni pack to make a kill so it can gobble it down until nothing but bone is left just to deny them of food

[topaz elm]

Nothing

[fierce creek]

Cera just shouldnt be hunting teno in the first place imo

[distant torrent]

unless those omnis got a few carno or teno friends

[fierce creek]

Headshots mite hurt it idk what the damage threshold is

[fierce creek]

Sorry for the ping but I was just reminded that being pounced cancels eating

so there is some counterplay

[alpine plover]

nice

[dusky surge]

yes, omni can't do much to cera at all, that's the point, it's a bully animal

you're supposed to respect the cera

people say "cera isn't tanky" while i've seen it take on 4 omnis alone and live

it has resistance to both fracture and bleed, meaning the only way to properly kill it is with raw damage output

idk why its considered unfair that carno can kick its ass, but also unfair that omni can't do anything, cera is supposed to scare the hell out of smaller animals into leaving food

[dusky surge]

100% correct

[drifting thorn]

https://youtu.be/GBzjb2npCds Yeap finally boys GG Pachy Mains U ARE DEAD in the water now …..😋

[dusky surge]

no they aren't lol, i played pachy in U6.5, can still easily kill omnis and fracture carnos

and troodons hardly stand a chance

only thing that changed is it isn't super OP

[drifting thorn]

Imagine trying to hit a Carno with a Omnis with no pounce and being slower .. 😂😂 People keep talking about Fractures Carnos if try to do that and u go for the leg and u get fracture u maybe survived but u will get at least 2 bites on ur head.. If the Carno Ambush u 😋 U ARE dead if u try to trade head to head with no stun is GG..

[dusky surge]

Carno landing an ambush is still a hysterical concept

ESPECIALLY U6.5 carno

Loud, obvious, low acceleration

And the charge uses up tons of stam

lmao dude just pinged me and got muted for a slur or something lol

[alpine nest]

@autumn crag
Your feedback is more than 6 months too late😉
It is already going to be much better than before.

[river nexus]

Omni was useless compared to everything mechanically, thankfully they now buffed it

[frail bobcat]

it was good against tenos

[alpine nest]

It wasn't useless but yes it was in a pretty bad spot

[cosmic pelican]

Now its basically u5 utah again :/

[frail bobcat]

I think its even better than it

[river nexus]

not useless yeah but very bad due to bucking mechanically putting it at diadvantage etc

[river nexus]

It is great against stego too

[frail bobcat]

tap pounces exist

[cosmic pelican]

Oh yea no recovery time on missed oounce is too much

[river nexus]

tap pounce was not intended btw. which is why they are nerfing bucking btw

[alpine nest]

U5 utah was in a good spot except the juvi spam pounce issue

[cosmic pelican]

2 good omnis could kill everything in the game bar deino(if we are talking against the average player)

[frail bobcat]

tap pouncing is still more fun than the normal pouncing imo, intented or not

[cosmic pelican]

2 utahs killing their main predator where its supposed to have a major advantage over them? Just no

[cosmic pelican]

Hard agree

[river nexus]

subjective and unpopular opinion

[alpine nest]

I'm sorry but your average stego had to be extremely bad if it lost against 2 utahs tho.

[river nexus]

the average stego has the skill of the average stego..

and no, 2 skilled and co-ordinated omnis can kill even stegos that are a bit skilled. Baiting is so efficient if you're co-ordinated

You bait, your team mate pounces as soon as it tailwhips. tap pounce.

or head

[frail bobcat]

I heard a lot of people saying that they liked tap pouncing more. But maybe we just talk to different people

[cosmic pelican]

I didnt imply it was common, only said its possible

[river nexus]

You hearing that from a handful of people does not make it a popular opinion, and anyways it was not intended for the game

Tap-pounce was forced upon the players due to bucking nullifying the pounce

[cosmic pelican]

I personally enjoyed the added layer of strategy and planning you had to put into each pounce

It just made it more skill demanding

[frail bobcat]

I know, but its still way more fun in my opinion

Far better than pounce, wait wait wait, pounce, wait wait wait

[river nexus]

It's less realistic lol, you're not a troodon that is pouncing to inject venom. You're pouncing to do damage. That is what separates the pounce between the two.
Your opinion is just that, an opinion - subjective.

What we know, for a fact, which is not a subjective opinion - is that omni's pounce was never intended to be tapped. That is why they're nerfing bucking, because bucking forced you to tap.

I don't want to feel like I'm getting submitted by some BJJ-guy, forcing me to tap because he has something unfair

[frail bobcat]

I dont care about realism, I care about fun. As I already stated, tap pouncing is more fun to me. I like the bucking nerf, that means both of those tactics are viable, I guess

[river nexus]

You think realism doesn't matter?

[frail bobcat]

Read my message again, then you will see what I think about realism

Also funny that you use the realism argument with pounce, which can not be performed irl because of physics n stuff

[alpine nest]

If you come with realism than a carno could oneshot a stego by biting its head🤷‍♂️

[frail bobcat]

@river nexus most of us have not played the update. We should wait for suggestions like this, when we have actually played with it

Maybe omni is fine, maybe it is op.

[distant torrent]

omni players are rare because of carnos current hitbox. I loved playing omni but stopped because I got sick of being killed 5 feet away by one of the abundant charging carnos. there’s just no escape, and you’re only feeding them

[river nexus]

What gave you the thought that the main reason to people not playing omni as much, was due to carno's hitbox? Is this your own personal experience that you assumed was everyone else's reason, or have you seen many complaining abt the same?
also will you respond, or will you just post a random counterargument and leave right away, like you did in #general-feedback-discussion ?

[river nexus]

Could it actually? I can't tell

[frail bobcat]

I stopped playing omni because of carno too.

[distant torrent]

I didn’t want to start an argument with a brick wall. but yea a lot of people have been complaining about carno’s hitbox in both suggestion channels

[river nexus]

Omni was generally weak. That is why people didn't play it as much. Carno wasn't the main reason to omni being weak either

[river nexus]

Alot complaining about carno's hitbox / = / People saying they left omni because of carno's hitbox, lol.

[frail bobcat]

Yes, lol. If you ask people why they stopped playing omni, a lot of them will say because of carno

[river nexus]

You're making an assumption

[plush panther]

Omni can already be good if well played, 6.5 they gonna become a real menace aha

[frail bobcat]

Then you are making one too

[river nexus]

The fact is that omni was generally weak, which is why it is buffed. That is what we know for sure.

What you can't prove is that people mostly left omni with carno as a main reason

[river nexus]

Nope. Omni being weak previously is not an assumption

Omni being weak is the reason behind the buff

[frail bobcat]

It was balanced in a landscape of OP playables

[plush panther]

Omni def weak tho, pachy oneshot them, same for teno and carno

[river nexus]

I remember when omni had a healthy playstyle, after its newest nerf - its playerbase started decreasing.

Hm, I wonder why. Perhaps because it became too weak for the playerbase's liking

[frail bobcat]

The only thing that needed to change is getting its agility back and a slight nerf to bucking. They made it stronger than u5 omni, from whar ai have heard

[frail bobcat]

So you call update 5 balanced?

[river nexus]

It was objectively weak prior to the new buff, but @frail bobcat is calling it an assumption lol

[plush panther]

I would say they were weak, that a facts, but maybe the buff are too much, feel a bit like that

[river nexus]

What I said was that omni's playerbase was healthy up until the newest nerf. Which means that playerbase started decreasing becausse of the nerf.

[plush panther]

overkill buff imo

[river nexus]

That is not an assumption, it's an observation @frail bobcat

[distant torrent]

my dude, omnis can’t escape carnos because of the hitbox, which is way too big. there’s literally no escape. that along with the fact that there’s a carno around every corner and everywhere you look, what do you think is going to happen to the omni population? they’re gonna stop playing because they keep getting steamrolled without a chance or hope of escape

[frail bobcat]

Arent that just two opinions in a discord with thousands of people? Please use the word objectively less when it is not objectively like that.

[river nexus]

"there's literally no escape" is a reach. Where did you get that from, there being no escape?

[distant torrent]

same with other small creatures. pachy stands a chance because it can cancel carno’s charge

[river nexus]

No. We know that omni playerbase started decreasing after it's newest nerf. That's a fact. Prior to the nerf, the omni population was way more active

After the nerf, omni became weaker.

this is how we know the playerbase decreased because omni was weak

you're wrong when you call that an assumption

[distant torrent]

the moon sized hitbox and their speed along with the no ram startup cost

[river nexus]

"No escape" is a reach at best, I don't have problems when dodging carnos

Since y'all like using anecdotals, I'll use em too

[frail bobcat]

Omnis population decreased, yes. It became weaker, but not weak. That is a big difference

[river nexus]

OMNI'S population decreased RIGHT after the nerf.

It became weaker, then the population decreased.

That means the omni was too weak for the population's liking
meaning the reason why the population decreased, was omni being weak

You're in denial rn

You agreed to the populaton decreasing after it got nerfed, yet you still state that carno is the main reason

[frail bobcat]

If you cant play omni because your two hardcounters are OP, omni is not weak. The hardcounters are just op

[distant torrent]

I guess you might not, but a lot of people do

[river nexus]

If carno was the main reason @frail bobcat , why was omni's population good when carno still existed while omni wasn't weak??
answetr this question @distant torrent @frail bobcat

[distant torrent]

nearly every single one of my deaths to carno was because of the hitbox

[river nexus]

respectfully don't avoid the question

[frail bobcat]

Because carno was weaker, lmao

Update 5 carno was way worse than u6 carno

[distant torrent]

carno didn’t have a better turn back then. now with its better turn + its old big hitbox, carnos dominate

[river nexus]

You're suggesting that the hitbox is the main reason, and not the Large nerf omni had.

Even though omni's population instantly decreased post-nerf, strongly indicating that they left due to omni being weaker

Omni's playerbase decreasing post-nerf is the proof here lol

[frail bobcat]

You do realise that carnos hitbox became a issue in the same patch where omni was nerfed?

[stark knoll]

It's both; carno got buffed and omni got nerfed at the same time

[river nexus]

The suggestion here is that carno's strength is the main reason why omni lost its playerbase

[frail bobcat]

I heard many people say that.

[river nexus]

Anecdotal

@tropic horizon You must realize that when you're able to stun a predator as pachy, you have the freedom to be a herbi-menace

It's not defense atp, it's stunning it so you get the ability to do more damage. eventually kill it

That's how pachies have been playing, using it offensively. which is cool, but not intended apparently

[tropic horizon]

It’s attack is pretty well telegraphed even if it can use it right before the rearing up animation finishes but yeah I guess I see where you’re coming from

[river nexus]

Its telegraph is not much of a nerf at all

That downside is so inferior to the upside of the stun

[tropic horizon]

The stun allows it to make distance

Also if a bad pachy tries to constantly ram while the stun cooldown is up

[frail bobcat]

Lets just settle that we both have different opinions. You think that the nerf was the main reason, I think that carnos buff was the main reason.

[tropic horizon]

It just dies

[river nexus]

The pachy can either choose to make distance or do more damage, atm we've seen pachies obliterating people with it

Like you break someone's leg, right? And then, because you stun them with every slam, you can keep doing it without worry of being bitten.

until they die

You can do that with carnos, tenos, haven't seen it done against stegos but you get the point

the stun brings more consequence than it does good

[dusky surge]

@tropic horizon the issue with stagger on ram is that it was used to basically just stunlock things

also i played pachy in U6.5, it absolutely does not just "die" to carno

if anything, it easily fractures and goes

[river nexus]

Yeah, what I said

[small ether]

Dude how do you expect Pachy players to kill stego’s now if they dont have the stun lock

[tropic horizon]

I respect y’all’s opinions and I’m glad that people have different ideas on how to balance the game so I’m happy that we could have a discussion!

[river nexus]

wait was that a thing

did pachy players actually manage to kill stegos?

[small ether]

I did with my friend all the time, it was fun af

[tropic horizon]

No they physically can’t unless they’re young juvies

Juvie and sub stego is what they mean