balance-feedback-discussion

[tired urchin]

have u not seen modern crocs shake there pray?

[dusky surge]

ah yes

[hollow canyon]

Deino is NOT like modern crocs

[dusky surge]

because a deino is going to be doing that to a 10 ton rex

[obtuse ocean]

Not vs a hippo lol

[dusky surge]

just pick it up and thrash it around

[hollow canyon]

yea crocs generally don't do well vs animals their own size and bigger

[dusky surge]

putting aside how deinos wouldn't be able to do that, what fantasy are you in that a deino can pick up and SHAKE a rex

[tired urchin]

u never seen nile crocs killing african animals?

[tired urchin]

never said pick up

[hollow canyon]

Yea I have, most of them are smaller than crocs

[obtuse ocean]

Imagine a rhino on land vs a croc, it could do whatever to it

[hollow canyon]

when I see a croc go after a buffalo that croc typically ends up being dragged to the land

[dusky surge]

tell me what documentary a croc killed a rhino

im curious now

[hollow canyon]

they do kill them occasionally but most of the time it goes badly for crocs

[tired urchin]

i was obv not talkign about a rhino

[hollow canyon]

they kill things like wildebeest and zebras most of the time

[dusky surge]

in what documentary did a croc end up killing a full, adult rhino on land

[slim dragon]

I can imagine a rhino casually walking around dragging 4 crocs biting its ankles and frantically trying to jerk it to the ground hard enough to break its bones

[hollow canyon]

which are smaller than crocs most of the time

[dusky surge]

comparing deino to a nile croc, i can compare rex to a rhino

[tired urchin]

and animal bigger than them yes

[hollow canyon]

what animal bigger than them?

[tired urchin]

no, compare it to a trike

[obtuse ocean]

lol yea

[dusky surge]

and a deino would get stomped by that too

[tired urchin]

deino has no chance again trike obv

[hollow canyon]

They run from hippos, they do poorly vs buffaloes

[dusky surge]

much like it has no chance against rex, obviously

[tired urchin]

i disagree, but it clearly does not matter

[hollow canyon]

crocs aren't big game hunters and neither is Deino

[dusky surge]

because a rex is capable of competently taking down a trike, and a trike can EASILY take down a deino, so there's obviously no room for argument

rex = trike > deino

[hollow canyon]

in the game it's specialised at oneshotting things half its size

The devs outright said that Trike and Rex are a league above Stego and Deino

[dusky surge]

that too

[hollow canyon]

and Stego already dumpsters Deino

which is intended

[obtuse ocean]

But for balance, croc good in water and bad on land : P

[hollow canyon]

deino can win but it's a difficult one to pull off

and you have to play better than Stego

which - again - is weaker than Rex and Trike

[dusky surge]

also for balance, deino doesnt kill things 2 tons larger than it

[tired urchin]

i mean, im not sayin grex has not chance, but i think irl deino has a good chance of wining. how would hte rex kill the deino, i wanna know. not saying there is no way, but how?

[dusky surge]

given that rex has more speed, more health and arguably similar DPS to a stego in what world does a deino, who already struggles with stego, win that

[dusky surge]

irl deino would get just as obliterated

its a REX

[tired urchin]

how

[slim dragon]

Bite it
Crush its skull

[dusky surge]

I feel like you're vastly underselling the competition here

[hollow canyon]

literally just bite it, T.rex's bite is absolutely devastating

[slim dragon]

Actually I think rex stepping on deino's head would be enough to put it in a very bad position, if not outright kill it

[tired urchin]

the deino would not let the rex get a grip on its skull, it would bite the rex;s skull as it goes in for a bite

[tired urchin]

ngl, u make a good point

[dusky surge]

Rex would only need to bite the deino to send it into agonising pain. A single bite to the head would devastate its primary form of attack, since it's a crushing bite, unlike deino's bite, which is specialised for gripping and holding

not to mention irl rex is likely far faster and more agile on land than the deino, as well as sporting a greater weight and having SIGNIFICANTLY higher intelligence

[slim dragon]

Sure
Just like a bear wins against a rex because it is faster and smarter
We're going down JFC levels of argumentation here

[hollow canyon]

tbh I don't think that would go well for Deino either if Rex's head ends up in Deino's jaws it could still bite it inside its mouth

btw I don't think trying to stand on top of Deino is a good idea

[dusky surge]

"my speed is superior, i am sure to win"

[hollow canyon]

that could get Rex to fall over

[dusky surge]

except in this case, the rex is both faster and smarter than the land deino

[hollow canyon]

Rex has a rather armoured head

[dusky surge]

so the deino really has very little going on for it

[hollow canyon]

and its bite is - again - more devastating than that of Deinosuchus

a quick explanation for why that would be

[tired urchin]

it could deathroll, or shake its head and body

[hollow canyon]

when Deino bites something it has multiple teeth dig into that thing to grip it, there's multiple points of contact that spread the force of the bite over a large area

[tired urchin]

a deathroll would kill the rex

on hte head

[dusky surge]

power = rex
speed = rex
agility = rex
intelligence = rex
weight = rex
stamina/endurance = rex
capability in water = deino, but not applicable because this fight is taking place on land

rex wins

[slim dragon]

Assuming a deino could deathroll at all

[hollow canyon]

Deino is much larger than extant crocs that can deathroll

[tired urchin]

yea, so it would be able to grip the rexs head

[hollow canyon]

Yea but compare that to a bite of a T.rex

[dusky surge]

also its bold to state it would so easily grab the head of the rex, when the rex stands SO tall above it

[tired urchin]

well, if u look at modern crocs vs lions or whatever, they alway face the animal when it goe into attack

[tired urchin]

then how would hte rex attack if its soo far up?

it would have to lover its head to bite

[hollow canyon]

which has teeth of differing length and structure, just like humans it is a heterdont which is an animal with different teeth of different function. When T.rex bites something, the longest teeth in its pre-maxilla make the contact with the target that means that the surfaces area that T.rex's teeth make contact with is much smaller which concentrates the bite on a smaller surface

[obtuse ocean]

My dog could kill a tiger to , if it got the perfect bite. But im guessing 10 out of 10 times it would never gotten in that situantion : P

[dusky surge]

its capable of moving its head, y'know, they had that capability even in prehistoric times

[hollow canyon]

that's why its teeth are more devastating

[dusky surge]

its not a new thing to us modern animals

even prehistoric beasts could move their necks and bodies to adjust where their head was placed

i think they discovered that in 2019

its pretty new stuff

[tired urchin]

but the rex has to lower its head, the deino would jsut grab its head, if its smart

[dusky surge]

you

realise that to grab the rex's lowered head, it'd have to RAISE its head

[tired urchin]

ig

[dusky surge]

bites from the rex would be coming from above

the rex isnt lying down to bite the deino

its attacking from above

[obtuse ocean]

I saw a clip of a tiger killing a croc ( not a big a one, slightly larger then the tiger ) the tiger got the back of the croc, and it never let go. If the fight was in water, the tiger wouldt even stand a chance.

But on land the croc is not as agile

[tired urchin]

tiger is more agile, but if hte rex was behind and the was tired, the croc would eb crushed

[hollow canyon]

Either way as I said - the devs outright stated that Stego and Deino are not in the same league as T.rex and Trike. That's all there is to it.

They're not going to be as strong as the actual apexes.

[tired urchin]

well a steg hit to a rex face would still hurt right?

[hollow canyon]

it would but Stego's survival in future is currently under a big question mark.

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, i think the rex would destroy the croc. And i would guess the croc would fatigue much faster then the rex . But i do see your points tho

[hollow canyon]

Much more than Deino's

Since we know how Deino's going to deal with Rexs and Trikes

but Stego seems in a much worse position

as it's both weaker and slower than T.rex

[tired urchin]

but we all agree that deino should get a bite force buff?

[hollow canyon]

and considering how close the fight between a Stego and a competent Deino is

[hollow canyon]

no, lol

[tired urchin]

wait

[obtuse ocean]

But the grab ability is really good

[tired urchin]

i mean when other apex and bigger dino are added

[hollow canyon]

it's not getting a biteforce buff

[slim dragon]

no

[slim dragon]

Deino is literally not meant to fight apexes

Why would it need a biteforce buff ? So that it's only ability becomes redundant ?

[tired urchin]

welp, then the water is not deinos, its the rexs, trikes stegs gigas,

[obtuse ocean]

You cant have it all, good ability / speed and power to fight apexes. Then atleast it need to be nerfed somewhere else

[tired urchin]

i mean deino shoudl have less health tan rex abv

[dusky surge]

honestly, the most i'd want for deino's "apex confrontation" is a super telegraphed charged bite attack which reduces speed, to defend waterways and bodies from competition

it cant hunt them, it cant kill them consistently, but it can warn them to get away

[dusky surge]

its going to have less

its lighter than a rex, thus it will have less health

[dusky surge]

idk if you know this dude

but deino can dive

[tired urchin]

ig

[dusky surge]

and avoid all of those animals

and they cant do anything to stop it

[tired urchin]

yea, but its so, not right

[dusky surge]

its not right to want to live?

[tired urchin]

nvm

[hollow canyon]

no, any good Deino will clap those animals in the water

[slim dragon]

It's not right that THE DEINOSUCHUS has a fight it cannot instantly win

[obtuse ocean]

Maybe they should get some cera treatment : P Rex can killem but is it worth the fight

[dusky surge]

i mean

deino is a big aquatic cera basically lol

except with ambush capabilities

[tired urchin]

leti mean liek what stegs do rn

[dusky surge]

it can eat rot, eat bones, its slow as hell, resistant to bleed and most forms of attack, can retrat to water if scared

[dusky surge]

ignore them

[hollow canyon]

Stego gets absolutely murdered in the water, it can only bite there

[dusky surge]

they're on land, you're in water, you don't need to engage

[hollow canyon]

It's not even close

[dusky surge]

there is no way a stego can kill a deino without the deino making 15 unique mistakes

[tired urchin]

have a chance* ik a good deino can get a steg, but that steg also has to be bad

[hollow canyon]

Hell even on land this fight can be close if you're good with Deino

[tired urchin]

if its a bad steg

that does not move

all the vid i see the steg does not move, it stans stilll and swing

[hollow canyon]

No, it can move, it's more down to how well it protects its head

[obtuse ocean]

But in the future, when more stuff is added. Why would you go for stegos, you can simply swim away and avoid the fight. Its gonna be much more stuff on your menu

[tired urchin]

yea, by moving a bit away

[hollow canyon]

but yes - you need to outplay the Stego

Deino isn't meant to be winning this in the first place

the fact that it sometimes does is already quite a lot

Same goes for Rex and Trike - you aren't meant to win a fight against them

[tired urchin]

maybe its just that its too unrealistic for me, u cant argu a deino bite to a stegs head would kill it, or grab its head then deathroll. but i dont want ot have another argument

[hollow canyon]

the funny thing is - Stego's head was actually the armoured part of its body

irl that is

[slim dragon]

It's the same thing the other way around
Realistically a stego's tailswipe to deino's head would kill it instantly
Yet in-game it doesn't

[hollow canyon]

it's not in the game

[tired urchin]

wow, a tiny little skull finna do a lot

[tired urchin]

i mean liek an ambush from th ewater

[hollow canyon]

yea it would probably die but a lot of things would probably die much faster than they do in the game

Carno would literally just grab a Utah with its jaws and shake it left and right

Tenonto would be food to just about any carnivore in the game

[tired urchin]

steg skull

[tired urchin]

yea, i agree. maybe when all the dino are in the game, thye will make them have the most realistic stats and let them organicly find there place

[hollow canyon]

no, they won't

[tired urchin]

sadly i agree

[hollow canyon]

Idk why you're assuming they're going to be changing the stats that much

[tired urchin]

would it make the game worse? sure some dino would be instantly killed, but such is the packing order

pecking

[hollow canyon]

yes, yes it would make the game worse

if they were to make it realistic

T.rex would be the only carnivore you'd ever see

[tired urchin]

faster ones?

[hollow canyon]

and maybe an occasional Deino

[tired urchin]

and trike

[hollow canyon]

Rex is one of the fastest carnivorous dinosaurs - not as an adult but is absurdly fast as a juvenile

a 700kg speed rocket

just running around and mauling Utahs

that thing ran faster than Carno irl

which... Carno wasn't even that fast compared to many other animals

but it had a much higher biteforce than the game implies and it was just fatter

[slim dragon]

Me when 2-3 tons juvenile rex was estimated to run at about 60 km/h
Turns every creature in the isle into minced meat

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto was absolute food

animals preying on it where 1/10th of its size

[tired urchin]

well ig some ballencing would eb needed, but didint the devs say that apexs would be an optoin?

turn them off for your own server

[hollow canyon]

they're going to be only available on the community servers intiailly

you won't see them on officials

at least not for now

[tired urchin]

welp, lets just see what they do

gn m8

[hollow canyon]

see you

[tired urchin]

one last thing

this is just freaky

compared to

maybe the rex was not full grown or somthing, but idk, deino looks like its winning

[hollow canyon]

Deino's jaws are bigger although I don't think the Rex picture actually gives a good idea of how big its skull is since the person is standing so far away from it

it should be almost as long as a person is tall

at least for the biggest individuals

this is what the skull of the biggest T.rex is like

iirc there are two specimens of similar size albeit probably slightly smaller(FMNH PR 2081 only some 2cm shorter)

[winter iris]

Ah that’s interesting about carnotaurus bite force. I read something, but most of the things were contradicting each other. But anyway it seemed that in the end it was kind of accepted that carno bite force wasn’t huge, also because of the hinges it had in the lower jaw. But I just read stuff a couple of times, so might easily be wrong

[hollow canyon]

Carno's biteforce is lower than Allo's but it still surpassed the likes of Ceratosaurus by a huge margin

there are two studies that estimate biteforces of many dinosaurs

the newer one(which is commonly considered to be just better)

puts Carno's bite ahead of Ceratosaurus, Teratophoneus and naturally Baryonyx and at a similar level to Yangchuanosaurus shangyouensis

Allo bite is almost twice stronger than Ceratos, Carno's is halfway between the two

Although

to be perfectly honest - Carno is a really big animal, it's really not a surprise that it bites hard and you could say that compared to similar-sized theropods its bite isn't that impressive

I believe that the Allosaurus used in the study was smaller than it and yet it still had a higher biteforce

[silent ruin]

Hate to break it to yall but whatever happened in real life doesn't account for the game and how it should be balanced

[analog mirage]

Yes. But Carno is still a larger animal therefor it’s going to hit harder. Now ingame something like Allo or Alberto would have a higher Bite than Carno.

[hollow canyon]

I just said that Allo indeed had a higher biteforce than Carno(irl)

matter of fact the Allo that had a higher biteforce than Carno was likely smaller than the Carno

Alberto naturally also had an even higher biteforce

but idk how large the specimen(of Alberto, or actually Gorgo, that is) used for the study was

The only thing that might be inaccurate is Cerato potentially having a higher biteforce than Carno

the rest will almost certainly check out

realistically the largest specimens of both Allo and Alberto would hit like absolute trucks in comparison to Carno

[golden coral]

@polar vineWell, if you're a very fragile playable, you're going to take a lot of damage from something very powerful. How much would you change it, what amount of damage do you think is reasonable?

[polar vine]

at least -30-40% of health

[golden coral]

Hm, that'd have to be pretty low damage then. Which means deino would have to be adjusted as well, somehow. Or otherwise adjust the attack speed of the jabs to compensate.

[polar vine]

i was a teno and had 50% of health, then stego hit my tail and now i have no teno

[golden coral]

That wasn't a tail hit if you had about half a tenos worth of health left.

So was probably a body hit if you took that much damage. If you had 500 or so health left, you would have survived a tailhit far as I know.

[polar vine]

no, i was 50% of health before stego did his tail swing

[polar vine]

oh well

[golden coral]

Yeah, half of a tenos worth of health is 800, since teno has 1600 health in total. And a tailhit from a stego does about 300 damage or so I believe.

[polar vine]

welp okay thanks!

[hollow canyon]

you wouldn't have died to a tailhit from a Stego with a Teno that had 50% health, it must've registered as a bodyshot

[pure heath]

Facts. You cant keep ot fun and balanced when its 100% realistic. I mean many of the dinos didnt even exist at the same time

[golden coral]

@pure heath tip of tail is only .1 or so, so its already very little damage and no bleed unless Im wrong on that.

[pure heath]

Hmm.. what were the person before me implying then? Im confused

[tired urchin]

Deino

[pure heath]

Stego on tip of tail on deino does 50%??

[tired urchin]

No, I ment we were talking about deino before

[pure heath]

Im confused, maybe my sleeping pills kicking in 😂

[tired urchin]

Lol

[golden coral]

They mistook a body hit for a tail hit and thus thought it was too high damage on stego jab.

[pure heath]

Ah

Tyrt

[hollow canyon]

there are two parts to most tails - the base of tail with a 0.25x multiplier and then the tip of the tail which has a 0.1x multiplier for most playables

not all of them have the latter one iirc

in the specific example discussed before the Teno wouldn't have died to Stego in either case unless it received a body-hit.

[lavish thicket]

who thinks stego is fair and balanced

[dusky surge]

Compared to current deino, carno and pachy, it’s perfect.

Deino needs a nerf far more than stego

[hasty coyote]

for the most part, it fills its intended role. Granted, it should have predators as adult, but that doesnt mean we should make deino its predator. Deino is meant to punch down and suffers against things it can't 1-shot and drown. Stego on the other hand is likely meant to contend with apexes since it has no way to run from them. so stego=apex, and deino <apex. Thus, stego >deino. Even then, you can definitely kill stegos as a deino. If you bite their head you win the fight easy. I have even ran into a group of 3 adult stegos from the water alone as a deino, jumped on 1 weakened stego, and headshot it to death since it didnt turn. Even though I had probably 2 stegos swinging at me, I only got dropped to half hp because they hit my tail mostly in fear of friendly fire.

[golden coral]

Fair, I guess depends on what you mean with that. Balanced, more or less yes.

[twilit juniper]

Tf are these childish ass reactions 💀

[lavish thicket]

bro thinks stego is fair 🗿

[twilit juniper]

and I do too. Stego is an apex that should tussle with rex the same as trike would, it’s just a extremely glass cannon-y apex. Out of all things it should get a buff once apexes are in the game. And it’s been made clear by devs that they aren’t nerfing animals just cause they’re overpowered in the CURRENT roster. Stego will be mauled if the entire roster was in right now

It’s literally a scorpion 💀

[lavish thicket]

theres no way

[lavish thicket]

scorpions can die to ants bro ☠️

[golden coral]

I did say "fair depends on what you mean with it". Balanced, yes, stego is more or less balanced.

[twilit juniper]

If ur talking about the buff part, it’s VERY likely. if not, it will get bodied

[twilit juniper]

Scorpion as in, it can only attack while standing still

[golden coral]

Well, lack of arguments I guess... xD

[twilit juniper]

😅

People will most likely riot even harder if stego gets bodied by every other apex, or large tier, than they already do about it needing a nerf

[lavish thicket]

not ture

[golden coral]

Yes, for some reason we have a strange stego that is a scorpion, which is far from an ideal design choice, and will hopefully be adjusted at some point. Since stego would be the one playable that should be good vs "horde" playables.

[lavish thicket]

anky rememeber that

[golden coral]

Anky?

What does it have to do with it?

[lavish thicket]

the one that lived in the same time a rex

[golden coral]

Probably. Hopefully stego will get some buffs, there's potential for it at least.

[twilit juniper]

We both don’t know for sure, I didn’t say it for fact. But it’s likely cause stego is very much an apex herbivore, that should tussle with other apexes.

[golden coral]

So? How is real life anky relevant to the game anyway?

[lavish thicket]

it's like stego but mix it with pachy

[lavish thicket]

hope not

[twilit juniper]

I don’t think anky was ever an apex though.. and stego.. is.., but not fully sure

Ppl are calling nerf deino and stego cause they are dominant in the current roster 💀 that isn’t the animals fault, it’s the rosters.

[golden coral]

Well, I very much hope so, otherwise it might not be viable vs the apexes, and that would be a problem. Besides, deino needs a nerf before stego anyway.

[lavish thicket]

stego was also not a apex

[golden coral]

Anky was. And hopefully will be as well. I honestly think they both should be, so we have good "tail attackers" up there, and not just all of the "take things head on", like everyone else (aside from kentro and sauropods if they count, do).

Are we talking apex real life, in progression, or survival, or what?

[twilit juniper]

Yeah, I need this clarification to be able to answer

^^^

[golden coral]

Well, deino has all kinds of issues, but it's less of a stat issue, and more the lunge mechanic being dumb. Similar with stego, it just needs better attacks and all that, though it could do with going up to 8T and getting the neck/throat armor!

[golden coral]

But they still need to be balanced for Evrima, no matter what they were or were not before.

[lavish thicket]

stego and deino should have armor

[twilit juniper]

Yeah, that’s true, especially deino, even modern alligators and crocodiles have armor. Dunno why a prehistoric crocodile wouldn’t

[dusky surge]

deino already has bleed res

that feels armour-y enough already

[somber sphinx]

Compared to something like deino its way more balanced and you can easily avoid a stego

[pure heath]

True. Meanwhile deinos are in our drinking spots. Once you get grabbed or one shot theres ovbiously nothing to do. Or sub adults run you down

[dusky surge]

@white dagger dryo getting a speed buff is by far the most boring and lame buff it could get, might as well relabel it to galli

it should get buffs, dont get me wrong

[white dagger]

yeah but its also completely useless rn and we do not have galli

so

make it small galli until the devs give it its burrows

[dusky surge]

i would much rather it be given really good NV next update so it can coexist with Troodon and have something actually unique from the rest of the herbis

W+Shift to win makes dryo boring

[white dagger]

could say the same about galli

[dusky surge]

galli has elements at play to make sure it can't constantly abuse its speed

[white dagger]

like?

[dusky surge]

diets effect speed, group members effect speed, so on

worse diet/no group = slower

[white dagger]

ok so get a group and eat the right stuff then abuse your speed

just adds extra steps

[dusky surge]

galli also has more of an actual niche

its an omnivore egg-eater

a fast dryo is literally just a fast dryo

nothing actually beyond fast dryo

[white dagger]

also this is temporary for dryo cause its getting burrows to make it unique

[dusky surge]

tons of animals are getting burrows

[white dagger]

yes but none are ingame

exept for dryo

[dusky surge]

i'd still prefer it get a nocturnal niche next update than a speed boost

(and also a reduction to dodge stam)

[fringe needle]

Carno's charge is too strong. It 1 shots 100% health adult raptors. Even with the raptors "superior mobility" the carno just turns even more and 1 shots you.. way too wide of a range and/or way too strong. Carno should not be able to out maneuver a raptor whilst charging

[golden coral]

It only oneshots omnis on headshot. But the carno has some issues with its charge hitbox that will be fixed.

[fringe needle]

Glad to know the hitbox issues are under review. Still I've been 1 shotted as raptor by carno twice in the last 2 days. Full health, Full grown. Running 90 degree angle away from the carno charging, and the carno just turns even more and 1 shots me 😦 I'd be ok with it knocking me down to extremely low health and then the carno having to bite me at least once, but the insta death via charge is kinda wack

[golden coral]

Could be the strange hitbox somehow getting you from the side, far as I know its only headshots that kills you outright. But the charge could do with less damage now that it's more of a useful chase tool, so the carno has to both knockdown and then stop to bite to kill its target.

[neon willow]

Yeah agreed. The wonky hitbox is a huge part of the issue, and is luckily being fixed. The other part is that charge does strangely high damage for a crowd control ability that can be spammed... 350 base damage (for body hit) AND knockdown? And it doesn't get punished for poor timing (can't hit a tree/rock and get stunned yourself). Lowering damage slightly would help with that... As with knockdown and the better turn radius, carnos should be plenty capable of turning around to bite during the stun effect

I'm not saying charge shouldn't do damage, just that a slight reduction-- 300 or 250 -- would encourage slightly better interactions than charge and instant win against Utah on hit

[fringe needle]

Agreed!

[keen plover]

Current charge is 300n

[hollow canyon]

I'm going to go further - not just a "slight" reduction. The charge should deal much less damage than its bite

Also - the charge now deals 300N

I think it should go down to ~50N maybe 100N

maybe bring up the bite back up to 200N to compensate

but Carno shouldn't use the charge to deal damage

[keen plover]

Tbf that’s essentially losing 200n~ of damage every attack

[hollow canyon]

rightly so

[keen plover]

Unless Carno still turns badly?

[hollow canyon]

I think that it's fair with the buff to its turn rate while charging

Initially Carno's charge dealt much less damage than the bite

it got buffed up because the ability was so trash that hardly anyone ever used it

hell at one point I think it dealt 450N

but that thankfully didn't last long

[keen plover]

Wasn’t it a bit more than that?

[hollow canyon]

probably a bit more

[keen plover]

Either way, it one shot Omni

[hollow canyon]

I just remember it oneshotting Utahs

but yea it probably dealt something like 500N

[keen plover]

Tbf, even if those values changed for Carno, it won’t mean much if I don’t know the capabilities of the other Dino’s in question

Although 200n Carno should have always been a thing tbf. Don’t know why it changed.

[hollow canyon]

I personally think that the optimal way to play Carno should be - charge in to apply crowd control and then proceed to maul it with bites

[hollow canyon]

Agreed that was a truly bizarre nerf

and really uncalled for imo

[keen plover]

Fair. Probably the best use of its kit. Since a lot of people didn’t like brawler Carno or ambush Carno

[hollow canyon]

I think that just fits the best what Carno is supposed to be like in the game, it's meant to hunt in the open but its agility is supposed to be subpar and its not meant to engage in long fights

this makes it reliant on stamina

and very dangerous if it sees you out in the open where it can charge you freely

but then it both needs the stamina to fight you and it is kind of useless in places where it can't use its charge

[keen plover]

Yeah, seems about right for Carno.

An established niche unlike legacy Carno

[dawn falcon]

You WILL get ambusher carnotaurus and you WILL like it!

[obtuse ocean]

I think carno in legacy was actually well balanced. But honestly i have no clue why, but it did work somehow : P

[hollow canyon]

It was trash

literally the worst balanced dinosaur in the game

[keen plover]

It was only good because bleed stacking existed. Also no collision

[keen plover]

Pretty much. Glorified spectator + oppressive in a few matchups

[obtuse ocean]

ahh, true. No collision actually helped

[hexed hound]

bleed stacking doesnt exist anymore ?

how do u bleed out then

[hollow canyon]

ermmm it's more so about the fact that legacy Carno had a decent bleed with a pretty good bleed resistance, it just wore its targets down in packs where you couldn't really do much against it unless you could onetap it

it ran through you cause no collision, bit you and ran for the exit

an extremely poorly balanced animal

it couldn't hunt smalls to save its life unless they were actively trying to engage it

it murdered bigger animals in packs without them really being able to fight back

and it oppressed a few animals solo

Cerato was literally dead on sight as soon as a competent Carno noticed it and wanted it dead

Maia was also just fodder to it(although that was Maia's only bad match up and it simultaneously oppressed all the smalls as it was THE small game hunter in Legacy so no tears should be shed for it)

[hexed hound]

i see

[keen plover]

Carno megapacks would pretty much nuke everything sucho sized and lower

[white dagger]

why are people down voting stego nerfs

tf is wrong with yall

[tall bronze]

Because while Stego shouldn't be in the current roster, you can just walk away from them. If anything, Deino is more of an issue

[slim dragon]

Because stego doesn't need a nerf

[white dagger]

....

im not even gonna talk with you if you just said that

[slim dragon]

good

[tall bronze]

Omnis and Deinos with a brain can deal with em relatively okay. Though the issue of their being so many adults is a Spiro issue sadly. Food is too abundant.

[hollow topaz]

The original post just said “nerf Stego” before it was edited which provides nothing to think about, which is why I downvoted it. Everyone crying that Stego is too OP is clearly trying to fight it when they shouldn’t be and can literally just walk away. It’s not fast enough and it doesn’t have enough Stam to harm you if you just leave. The only thing that would have the right to complain about that would be deino, but if it’s having trouble getting away from a steg it was probably on land where it shouldn’t be to begin with which also removes any reason that it should be whining.

Now if you’re talking about being able to fling it’s body around on broken legs, that’s a different case which wasn’t originally included in the post.

If you’re one of the carno mains ramming a Stego and then getting mad that you died that’s on you.. the dinosaurs meant to fight it (spoiler: not carno or pachy) can and usually will, if they have a little tact about it. Most Stego players don’t even know how to play.

[somber sphinx]

Because With stego you can just walk away from it and if you die to a stego then that’s on you

Stego doesn’t need any nerfs

[twilit juniper]

Idk why ppl even want stego nerf 💀 it’s not like carnos should even hunt it, ever. (If it’s the carno mains asking, if deinos are asking though, umm, sorry, but get better, good deinos have almost no problems taking out 1-2 adult stegos)
If the reason is cause it’s technically the strongest animal currently in, due to the 1.2k dmg swing, how is that the stegos fault, it’s most likely just the rosters fault. Let’s put a rex that is said to be much stronger than legacy rex against current stego right now, it would literally fold it. (And stego is supposed to tussle, and if not tussle, then relatively easily defend from apexes, as well as be an apex herbi itself)
And a dev has already stated that they aren’t nerfing an animal just cause it’s overpowered in the roster, or just cause it’s simply the tankiest and strongest in the game ✌️

[hollow canyon]

damn, if you didn't say it here I would've completely missed it and I wouldn't have downvoted it but now that I've noticed that feedback I've done my part

[twilit juniper]

We don’t want another “guess I’ll die” situation like we had in legacy just cause 1 Dino came across another it couldn’t run or defend from

Sure stego and deino don’t fit in the current roster with the rest being almost all small-medium sized animals, but how is that the animals fault 💀 I’m pretty sure stego out of all things will need some kind of buff once the entire 30+ playable roster is in

It’s funny how ppl go “you disagree that stego should be nerfed? Wow, I won’t even talk to you if you think like that”, while not elaborating why they advocate for the reason they want the nerf 💀

[twilit juniper]

Which exactly was the post that got so downvoted? was it the Hypsilophodon one?

[hollow canyon]

the very last one

about Stego

#balance-feedback message

[golden coral]

Because stego is fine and does not need a nerf. If anything, it might need buffs in the future. And compared to deino, deino is far more of an unbalanced issue than stego has ever been in Evrima. So first deino needs to be nerfed if stego is going to get a nerf.

[dusky surge]

@mossy grove the fact your entire basis for your argument is an underweight stego doesn't really fill me with much confidence for your argument. Stego is 6 tons.

[mossy grove]

2 ton difference lol

ill change it

[dusky surge]

Also comparing stego vs deino to zebras and nile crocs is fundamentally ridiculous

[mossy grove]

yep i know have to get the point across still tho

what else do i compare lol i will change it to somethin else if ya want me too tho

[dusky surge]

If your example makes no sense, your point makes no sense. Stego NEEDS to be able to defend itself and kill deino, it makes perfect sense for stego to win the matchup for balance reasons

[mossy grove]

yea it should be able defend its self for a quite long time, but stego can just run away 💀 💀

[dusky surge]

and everything else can just run away from steg

deino can just ignore stego

[mossy grove]

deino cant

stego just body blocks it

[dusky surge]

the whole "deino fishing thing" stegos do? yea that requires a deino dumb enough to bite the hook

[dusky surge]

if a deino is that far out onto land, they kinda deserve it

[mossy grove]

point still stands deino weighs as much as a rex

[dusky surge]

like how deino can bodyblock stego in water

[mossy grove]

with 2 of em

[dusky surge]

weight should not be the determining factor of what wins what

[mossy grove]

should be a big one

[dusky surge]

alright

omnis just shouldn't do anything to a stego, ever

[mossy grove]

WHAT???????????????????????????????

WTF

[dusky surge]

weight should be a big determining factor

i'm following your ideas

[mossy grove]

BLEED MAN BLEED

[dusky surge]

omni is too light

shouldn't be touching stegos

[mossy grove]

THERE IS 8 OF EM WTFFFF

[dusky surge]

it should only fight pachies and dryos

those things are within the correct weight range

[mossy grove]

THATS AROUND 4 TONS

[dusky surge]

2 tons less than a stego? yea stego should win

since stego is 2 tons less than a deino and should not beat it

hey. you're right, this kind of balancing is fun

[mossy grove]

ok ok ok 8 omnis are around 4 tons ok?

[dusky surge]

less than

3.6 tons

[mossy grove]

yea

[dusky surge]

therefore they should lose

because we're making weight as our primary argument for why stego should lose to deino

[mossy grove]

3.6 tons worth of jumping on a back and bleeding it out

[dusky surge]

doesn't matter

[stark knoll]

I don't think the thought exercise is working

[dusky surge]

it's lighter, stego is heavier, that's our current balancing philosophy

[mossy grove]

and also i said "a big factor"

[stark knoll]

At this point you're just trolling him wave

[mossy grove]

oh hello there

[dusky surge]

it is fun tho

[mossy grove]

yea

[dusky surge]

because the whole point is silly

[mossy grove]

💀 💀 💀

[dusky surge]

3.6 tons of weight jumping on a back and bleeding it out should kill a 6 ton animal, according to you, but 6 tons of force and spiked weaponry being flung at full speed into the skull of an 8 ton animal shouldn't kill them

how does this make sense?

[mossy grove]

ok ok ok but the deino has armor and is way bigger and is constantly on the head, how does that sound?

so 500 bite force on that tiny head does nothing now?

[dusky surge]

it does 1000 damage

that's a very significant amount of damage

[mossy grove]

look at stegos head for a sec then look at deinos what would happen if deino chomped on it???

[golden coral]

@mossy groveDeino is not meant to win vs stego that easily, and they can still 1v1 one, and 2v1 a stego just dies. Also stego will need to survive rex somehow, so the last thing it needs is nerfs, most likely buffs if anything when rex is in.

[mental roost]

Stego already has 2x damage modifier on its head...that's pretty big, the issue is that most deinos just aren't good at taking advantage of it(as is Deino in general)

Likewise Deino has a massive head, and that armor doesn't mean much vs 3ft long(or a meter ish) thagomizers stabbing it in the head.

[mossy grove]

im laughing so hard rn

[dusky surge]

look at deino's head for a second then look at stego's thagomizer what would happen if stego swing into it???

answer is both animals would realistically instantly die to the other in this situation, but that's not particularly fun

[mossy grove]

deino can lunge

[dusky surge]

the hell does that have to do with what i just said

[mental roost]

Very easy to land headshots on a deino(huge noggin), with the base multiplier(I think..1.2x?), where as Stego has this little head with a higher multiplier than the rest of the roster(so far)

[frail bobcat]

You know that realism does not mean it would be balanced well. And the game needs to be balanced

[mossy grove]

plumb sized head vs giant big croc

im saying if deino gets an ambush he should win

[golden coral]

Omnis are also terribly designed for hunting a stego and should really not be good at it, not even in a full pack. Just like deino is terribly designed for fighting large things, but can one shot everything smaller.

[mossy grove]

if he misses and hits tail of body he should lose

[golden coral]

6T worth of thagomizer force to deino.

[frail bobcat]

Yeah, lets give the playable that always gets free ambushes another free ambush

[mossy grove]

they gotta aim it on the head

stego can drink sideways

[golden coral]

Let them both oneshot each other, good balance xD

[mossy grove]

we aint talkin omni we talking deino

[mossy grove]

plz yes

[frail bobcat]

Which is very easy because the stegos need to drink and stay in that one spot.

[mossy grove]

not one shot but 3 or 4

steg can escape deino can escape equal match up okay??

[golden coral]

Please don't ever have balance ideas.

[dusky surge]

realistically thats how it works

[frail bobcat]

The croc is the most op playable already, why make it stronger?

[dusky surge]

fun-wise? yea nah

[mossy grove]

did u hear what i said after?

lol

[golden coral]

Yes, but you still made that statement first, so you got a response to it. And they do currently 5-6 shot each other, so it's already like that then.

[mossy grove]

im saying they should be equal not one demolishing the other

[golden coral]

Deino has far greater escape chances, and can be untouchable, stego can not. There's no reason a deino should have to hunt stegos anyway, much less a rex or trike or something.

[mossy grove]

i was using it as an idea so they both equal shot each other

[golden coral]

They are kind of equal, with a noticable but not too great advantage for the stego. And that's just fine. They shouldn't be outright equal because deino has so many other advantages that stego does not.

[frail bobcat]

Deino has a literal get out of jail card everytime. It is your fault when you die to a stego as a deino

[golden coral]

If you'd like deino and stego to be perfect equals, then stego should be as immune to the rest of the roster as deino is, and have as easy a time to oneshot them as well.

[frail bobcat]

You are the one controlling the fight

[mossy grove]

he cant do anything to escape if he goes a bit far on land

[dusky surge]

stego should get a lunge from the bushes lmao

[golden coral]

Why do you go on land? That's a dumb deino. Like a stego going swimming into the water. It also will die if there's an adult there that knows what to do.

[mossy grove]

ok ok ok guys just listen they should be equal thats all im saying just plz listen

[mossy grove]

they always just swim in water and just kill the deino

lol

thats why im complaining

[frail bobcat]

They stand jn the water

[mossy grove]

yep

[golden coral]

Hah! No but we could let stego swipe omnis pouncing it off right away, flexible tail, and just up the damage to 1800 so it oneshots carnos on a body hit as well. That's more comparable to deinos water immunity, bleed res, and lunge mechanic, no? :p

[frail bobcat]

Huge difference, they cant swing why swimming

[golden coral]

If the stego is swimming, it can only bite. If you die to that as deino,.... I don't know what to say, stop playing deino?

[frail bobcat]

And the croc can always tank one or two hits and swim away

[mossy grove]

same thing he is in deinos exact territory and he can kill it with ease

[golden coral]

And if they're just standing at the shoreline, swim away into deeper water or to the sides.

[dusky surge]

yea, that sounds like fun and not really annoying haha cant wait for god stego so it can be balanced against god deino

[mossy grove]

i cant even respond now lol too many people replying

[golden coral]

Honestly not opposed to a swipe omnis off your side, stego should be able to, and we've seen bary and some other have concepts like that :p

[frail bobcat]

Deino players when they have one matchup that isnt completely onesided (they call for nerfs)

[dusky surge]

omni mains would lose it

[mossy grove]

[golden coral]

No doubt they would. Just like I'm sure they will when they meet an anky and can't do anything, or a big sauropod :p

[mossy grove]

https://tenor.com/view/out-im-gif-19436371

[golden coral]

@mossy groveIn general, the matchup between deino and stego is just fine.Deino has so many advantages overall in this game that having one, not one shot, matchup, isn't bad for it. And it has great ability to avoid dying to a stego, as long as the deino player has some form of awareness of its surroundings. Deino does not need to kill stegos reliably to be fine, it's already far too good of a playable.

[mossy grove]

ok one thing before i go doodle or somethin they should be equal

[hollow canyon]

it doesn't

[mossy grove]

not rn plz im drawing

[keen plover]

Also Stego should be able to kill a Rex. It’s really not absurd

[hollow topaz]

I’m a little late but the zebra vs croc thing isn’t even comparable.. The sizes don’t even really compare, nor do the speeds. I could just as equally compare them as hippo vs croc, and yeah. Hippos do attack and kill crocs. The fact that you chose a herbivore such as a zebra only serves to make all herbivores weak and non-aggressive, which is actually not true in real life.

[mossy grove]

plz no no

[golden coral]

Nah, let's just have stego die outright, much better of course... xD

I hope stego will be given proper buffs so it can fight off a rex, since I don't see it looking or feeling good to just run, and it's not just rex, you got giga, acro, and possibly the other apex herbies at that, trike, shant, anky, and so on. (anky might be faster than stego too, if we get a runner anky, so that should be fun).

[mossy grove]

[golden coral]

I don't know why you seem to struggle with the concept of making a playable viable against the things it's going to meet in the roster.

[mossy grove]

not that anky being a runner

[keen plover]

Stego shouldn’t be running down a Rex, however if the Rex is hunting it, the Stego should be able to dish out enough damage to either make the Rex go away or kill it

[golden coral]

Ah. Well, we did get a changed anky so it could move around more, so you know, it could happen. :p

[mossy grove]

yea

[golden coral]

But I am somewhat making fun of it, I just don't want to say it won't happen because we don't really know if anky is meant to be "fast" or not, and stego is very slow

[mossy grove]

👍

[mossy grove]

but stego is fa- ok i wont start this

bye

[golden coral]

What? ^^

[thin mantle]

Lol stego is fast now?

Must’ve missed a patch

[dusky surge]

stego is everything deino mains say it is

[thin mantle]

An unstoppable wall of pure rage and unquentiable aggression that you both cannot run from or fight and can in fact by the way solo 10+ Adult Deinos at once
Trust me I saw it yesterday

[dusky surge]

the TRUE predator of the isle

[thin mantle]

The killer, the apex

[dusky surge]

the meek and mild deinosuchus is HELPLESS against this horrible beast

[thin mantle]

The way that croc players tend to describe stego makes it sound like legacy Utah ironically

[dusky surge]

they do NOTHING wrong and these horrible monsters play COMPLETELY unrealistically by sticking their tail into the water, which automatically kills every deino in 100m of the tail

[thin mantle]

Deino fishing is such an archaic issue…like that goes back to the days of Oasis and Pocket

I cannot believe people still to this day say that is a problem

Like if a water source is small enough to the point of you being threatened by this…it’s the game telling you you don’t belong there

At this point

[dusky surge]

deino fishing is great, because, just like real fishing, it only works if a big and stupid aquatic animal chomps down on obvious bait

thus proving that deino mains have an intellect comparable to actual fish

[thin mantle]

At least our fish have learned to counter this issue through flight

The reptiles haven’t caught on

[dusky surge]

the AI fish are better at avoiding it than deinos are

thats just sad

[thin mantle]

I mean, props to hypno I suppose

AI really coming in clutch

[dusky surge]

*amarok

[thin mantle]

I do find it ridiculous that people unironically use “this big thing can kill a bigger thing” as a point against that matchup when Troodon, Pachy, Omni, and Teno all exist

Like we actually have more punch up animals than punch down

The only punch down we have is deino and Carno

And Carno is only by technicality of being the largest land predator

I only don’t mention dryo and hypsi because…they don’t punch

[dusky surge]

deinos when their fast swimspeed, ability to dive to the lowest point of the waterway, effective invisibility, highest healthpool and dash move is entirely invalidated by a stego swinging at them one time

[thin mantle]

From a position that they can’t even reach you from

The heresy

[tall bronze]

I still think a lot of the "must kill Stego" bloodlust from Deinos comes from it's over size and people looking at it thinking big monster.

Which is weird since the developers clearly treat it as something not as monstrous as people expect Deino to be (they even called it a mid-tier once)

Kinda like it was originally intended to be smaller....hmm

[thin mantle]

But Aqua rex doc!!! What about my AQUA REX?!?!

[mental roost]

Me have bite force stronger than Rex(allegedly), me should bite everything to death. Must destroy roster

[dusky surge]

Me read single study on deino bite force. Me refuse to account for other factors in bite damage besides raw power. Me balance entirely around single study

“Realistically deino could bite off stego’s head in one go” mfs when you tell them that realistically stego has an armoured head, realistically stego is 8 tons, not 6 and realistically stego could kill anything in the roster with a single blow to a vital organ

[fresh laurel]

arent there bigger deino size estimates?

[dusky surge]

Deino in the Isle is much more close to irl weights than stego, who’s notably underweight

[hasty coyote]

@winter iris I actually did some tests on this a couple days ago, the hitbox isn't bad... for the most part.
If you're being hit from a mile away, that is latency. The rams seem to work better the better your ping is (both for the target and the pachy). I tested with another person, I had like 30 ping and they had like 60-80 iirc (not sure on exact, but it was more than me). Almost every hit worked perfectly fine on my end, as pachy or not as pachy. However, when i was pachy, occasionally the lagy person would have a ram connect very late. This generally occurred when we were moving fast and turning a lot, it happened after a few omni fights, but basically first try on a carno fight. So on their end they would be stunned/knocked down from like 3 meters away, but on my end they move like 3 meters like normal then fall over. I also noticed when this happened, they don't get the standard knockback from the ram, instead they would just fall over where they registered they fell over. Thats why you can see in a lot of fights (not just with pachy), the stunned dino slides forward like a meter or 2.

However, I did notice 2 issues with the hitbox of pachy / the hurtbox of some dinos.
First, pachy's ram technically extends out like a foot on either end. This isnt noticeable in combat much and is likely there to account for lag, but you can hit any dino while standing right next to it and parallel to it.
Second, the base of the tail appears to be considered part of the body hitbox. While this doesn't matter for most dinos, this is exacerbated by teno. A pachy can basically hit a teno halfway down its tail and stun it. So yet another reason for wavepool to hate this matchup lol.

Other than that, everything seems to work fine from our tests. It seems to mostly be just a latency issue.

[tranquil pawn]

[dusky surge]

listen, i like deino, but i genuinely think deino mains are a scientific experiment to see if goldfish can play videogames and have power fantasies about becoming the top of the foodchain

[tranquil pawn]

Ope, sorry for the ping mate

[tranquil pawn]

[dusky surge]

dude, dont worry about it

im the least easily offended by pings ever lol

unless it's literal spam

[tranquil pawn]

Chad

[dusky surge]

its a little red number idc

also i like talking

[tranquil pawn]

Good mindset

I know people who have gotten genuinely mad at me if I needed something lol

[pure heath]

you always in this channel. I love it.

[fresh laurel]

Simply remind them of the fact that they can basically one shot most of the roster

Deinos legit are able to one tap ko most dinos with lunge with it being in a moment where the prey cant even fight back or prepare much

But stego makes deino fodder as a whole ong

Add spino to smite deinos tbh-

[keen plover]

I’d take them seriously if they also wanted nerfs for their mains

[dusky surge]

its me vs stupid

someone has to do what i do

[pure heath]

the hero we needed but never deserved

[mossy grove]

oh right

[hollow canyon]

@winter iris I tested both back to back. Pachy seemed ok during the short tests I ran on it, Carno did not.

[unborn saffron]

pachy is fine rn doesn't need any nerfs/buffs. Carno require some fixes on its ram

[golden coral]

Pachy is not fine, it has severe issues with its ability to stunlock carno and teno

[dusky surge]

this is just entirely incorrect

pachy's power puts carno to shame

and this isn't dismissing how overtuned carno is

pachy is just so good it makes carno weak in comparison

[unborn saffron]

pachys head is their only weapon used for defense and they die easily to a few bites from a carno. However carno players should be cautious when hunting a pachy and not just randomly start charging and then later getting entire skeletons broken by a single pachy... Either do an quick ambush charge on the pachy and alt bite it to lower its health significantly. Pachys are meant to be agressive strong defensive dinos and a carno is not supposed "easily" kill a pachy without having any difficulty. Hunting one and failing to hunt it should be punishable. And also remember a pack of carnos can easily handle one pachy if they do it right !

[golden coral]

Pachy should not be able to stunlock a carno or teno like it currently can. And no, a single carno vs a single pachy should not be a winnable fight for the pachy, but it currently is due to said stunlock. This is not really up for debate, pachy is not in good place when it comes to its CC and it needs a fix, just like carno charge hitbox need a fix and so on. And do remember, carno is almost 4 times the size of a pachy, so the pachy is far too powerful. And teno dies even faster than carno, so there's an even worse matchup that is also on pachy CC being an issue.

[dusky surge]

The concept that the small game hunter should be afraid and even equally matched by the very small game its designed to hunt is testament to how badly Pachy is balanced, and how bad balance for smalls has been traditionally

[keen plover]

Tbf that’s not what was intended with Pachy. What it’s ‘supposed to do’ is break a carnos leg and get out of there

[dusky surge]

Also "carno ambush pachy"

Can't wait to see you try that on Gateway

[golden coral]

Break leg and run = you live. Break leg and stay to fight = you die. Or however it went, but something like that.

[keen plover]

Honestly, this issue mainly stems from Pachy being like this since release. Kind of the expected state for a lot of people.

[keen plover]

Yeah. Generally not meant to be out in the open with Carno either

[unborn saffron]

No ofc not... look at the pachys concept art(you can also see it attack other herbis, meaning its an aggressive creature, its throwing and bullying whatever it sees or something that annoys it) So basically pachys are supposed to bully the hunter and punish it severely.

[golden coral]

There's breaking the hunters leg, and there's being able to stunlock it to death because it can not fight back at all.

[dusky surge]

Yes, hunters like omni and dilo, not hunters like carno

[golden coral]

Especially when it does concern a much larger and more powerful hunter, or for that matter teno, that ia also quite a bit larger and currently defenseless vs pachy.

[unborn saffron]

well I havent tried it on gateaway but this has worked for me several times on spiro.

[golden coral]

Also you can still allow for a bullying, breaking bodypart pachy without letting them kill things they shouldnt with no risk, or even killing smaller things without them being able to fight back at all.

[dusky surge]

Spoiler, without the horribly designed terrain of Spiro, you can easily tell carno was never meant to be an ambush predator

[keen plover]

I advocate for Pachy to still be a menace in decent groups. I do not advocate for 2 - 3 pachys bullying things many times there size and essentially giving them no chance to fight back

If most players didn’t have carnivore bias, Pachy would be the objective best pick

Barely any time to grow, eats grass & can kill most of the roster

[unborn saffron]

bro ik spiro sucks and also carno is not an ambush predator but I've ambushed a pachy and I've killed it.

I tried it and it worked.

[dusky surge]

(pachy bad probably)

[golden coral]

I feel like you're entirely missing the main point. Pachy can stunlock carno and teno, which means they can not fight back, at all. This is a problem, simple as that.

So pachy is not fine, end of story.

[unborn saffron]

not that everyone should try to ambush as a carno.. its just that I tried it and it worked for me on Spiro.

[dusky surge]

did you know pachy has one of the most one-sided confrontations with another animal, where if it sees a teno, the teno is basically helpless to stop any pachy of any groupsize from killing it?

fun fact

[unborn saffron]

they should do somethign about it stunlocking tenos

[dusky surge]

did you know that pachies account for one of the biggest reasons tenonto players dropped so heavily this update?

[golden coral]

They should do something about it stunlocking both tenos and carnos. And hopefully they will.

[dusky surge]

they should do something about it stunlocking any animal greater than 2x its own body weight

[keen plover]

Good luck to Bary, Cerato, magy, kentro and megalania I guess

[dusky surge]

LMAO CERA

Cera on his way to get turned into mince meat by a single dome headed boy

[winter iris]

@hasty coyote @hollow canyon thanks both for your responses. Might be just an issue at my end then, even if the ping was pretty good (like around 30-40). I’ll see if it happens again in the future

[keen plover]

Head fracture and it’s dead on sight lol. Barely any damage

[dusky surge]

Leg fracture and it's dead

[keen plover]

I’d aim for that first

[dusky surge]

Already confirmed a slow animal

[hollow canyon]

What exactly have you noticed btw?

[dusky surge]

Throw a leg fracture on top of the pile of stuns coming its way

[keen plover]

Yeah… Honestly even with the stun changes

[dusky surge]

"We'll just fix the teno/pachy matchup, I'm sure nothing like this can possibly happen again"

[keen plover]

I wouldn’t want to go near Pachy

As cerato

[hollow canyon]

Pachy needs fixes

[dusky surge]

You have to fix its matchup with EVERYTHING above 1 ton to even start to make it remotely NEAR balanced

[hollow canyon]

it's a broken playable

[dusky surge]

It is arguably one of the most broken playables, slightly lower than deino atm

[unborn saffron]

maybe lowering the duration of stun locks?

[hollow canyon]

Carno is much less of a problem, it can be sorted out with a few changes

[keen plover]

Always has been. I still remember Pachy 2 shotting Omni lol

[dusky surge]

Solves nothing

It just changes the method of how they do it

[unborn saffron]

i swear Omni sucks this update...

[dusky surge]

Omni is fine

Pachy, deino and carno, however, really are not

[unborn saffron]

have u even played it lmao?

[dusky surge]

Yep, tons. It's a shame, it's so well balanced, yet its competition is so horribly overpowered

[keen plover]

Tbf, the bucking needs visual changes. Shouldn’t be too hard

[dusky surge]

Yea, but that's obvious

[unborn saffron]

yea

[keen plover]

Yeah. Apart from that, it performs well against Teno

[dusky surge]

That matchup is the most fun in U6 btw

God damn it's good

Yet it's never seen, because why play teno/omni while carno/pachy/deino exist

But yea, buffing omni achieves nothing, carno and pachy need urgent addressing first

[keen plover]

I hope they seriously look at Deino. There’s a lot there to change imo.

[dusky surge]

Oh yea

[hasty coyote]

I'm hoping they do something with the water clarity like this: #general-feedback message

[dusky surge]

I keep forgetting that the animal equivalent to Poseidon, King of the Depths exists

[keen plover]

That as well as sustainability, land combat & ease of growth due to 90 minute hunger

[keen plover]

Painful. Barely changed since it was released

I don’t recall too many notable changes for deino 🤔

[dusky surge]

Most changes it's ever gotten have been buffs

[hasty coyote]

that too, they should prob make them take much more to fill up.

[dusky surge]

Not even a joke

[keen plover]

Yeah, that’s actually true

5 min oxygen to 10 min

New diets make it somehow even easier to grow lol

[dusky surge]

i LOVE still having the shopping list!

[keen plover]

Currently, 1 deino body fills 4 deinos roughly. So deino needing 4000kg of food to fill up sounds about right

[hasty coyote]

bones is how. Just make them not give all 3 diets, and instead the diet of whatever died

[keen plover]

Bones should just be food imo

Like another avenue to fill up

[hasty coyote]

or that

[golden coral]

@quaint sageMaybe if you also removed the lunge stun deino has, and allowed the stego to still turn around and otherwise avoid attacks from the second deino until it's free from the hold or something. But currently with the stun on lunge, two deinos can already very easily kill a solo stego.

[slim dragon]

I don't think deino should be incentivized to group up, it doesn't strike me as a packing animal

[quaint sage]

Really? I didn’t onow that

[quaint sage]

Yes obviously without the stun, forgot to mention that

[golden coral]

Just have one of you lunge and stun, the other body block/alt bite stego on head.

Or alternate bite/alt bite, use the alt bite to move if the stego tries to turn.

[quaint sage]

Thats also true

[winter iris]

Pachys ram causing stun and damage even if slightly hitting my tail (basically it looked like he missed the ram, but it was delivered)

[hollow canyon]

hmm tail might have a larger hitbox than intended but when I tried ramming around a target it didn't really connect

as compared to Carno charge which connected even from like a yard or two away

[winter iris]

I just tried again, got killed but it was for science haha. Also this time pachy hitbox was way off I think. It basically missed me but I got fractured and stunned. To be honest I think pachys ram just work a bit like “target acquired” and once they have you on target it seems like no matter what you do an you get hit…a bit like Utah pounce before this update if this makes sense

[winter iris]

I agree, carno ram is broken. But what I found with carno is that some times it works fine and some other times it doesn’t (especially when the prey/target is small it seems that the hitbox gets broken more easily). But at least it seems to me that to knock something down you almost need to hit it in a decent way, whilst many times it looks like you deliver damage also by hitting the tip of the tail (which shouldn’t happen). Whilst pachy stun locks you and deliver fractures also if it actually missed the ram. Again, that’s what it seems to me having tried yesterday and today (with ping = 30 more less, so good one)

[hollow canyon]

I have found it to work poorly rather consistently

[winter iris]

You referring to carno ram?

Or pachy?

[hollow canyon]

Carno

I haven't had a single instance during the test where it worked as intended

Pachy worked quite consistently correctly

[winter iris]

Oh yea, I fully agree it’s quite random I have to say. What I was trying to explain is that it seems inconsistent and buggy to me, so some times it seems to work decently and many times the hit box is way off

I also noticed that ramming AI with carno makes AI starting flying all over the map a good 80% of the times, that’s also another reason why ram seems buggy

[hollow canyon]

yes I've noticed that too

it's been a thing for a while now I think

[tall yarrow]

#balance-feedback message what do they mean by that?

[distant torrent]

they mean don’t let dinos like sub deino be busted because of growth that makes it annoying powerful. you know how deinos get a lot of weight and speed rather fast, not to mention the baby stam? yea that

also a random picture from google. exponential growth (the growth we had before this update) was when dinos would gain all their weight, damage, and etc. when they were 100% or close to it. the linear growth (what we now have) means weight and etc. with growth is mostly consistent, so you’re not gaining all your stats suddenly

[tall yarrow]

so the new growth system is better?

well yeah they could customize the stats for deino so that it gets those kind of benefits later on but not the second u hit 100%

[distant torrent]

yes, but it does lead to some busted growth stages for deino, stego, and carno

[tall yarrow]

True!

[vagrant coyote]

@terse torrent if you don't want to get cannibalized, don't pick cannibal dinos. It's a realistic survival game, and shouldn't sacrifice realism just because one person can't figure out how to spawn somewhere else

[random stump]

@orchid prairie well you see its actually a skill issue because you didnt wait 15 minutes to drink or go to shallower water!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Actual arguement I have been presented for deino being ok)

[orchid prairie]

in what world is it ok for an animal that is NOT anatomically mature enough, to carry a 450-500kg animal and sprint at the exact same speed with or without said animal in its mouth back to water and still have enough stamina to drown it i will reiterate a 16% grown deino can do this. 16%! that is far too young for any animal to do anything like that.

[old mantle]

the world we're living in.

[orchid prairie]

unfortunately

[old mantle]

this is fine.

https://youtu.be/9Eqrx0ZN1WY?t=58

[dusky surge]

This is why stego needs to nerfed

Deino needs to be able to do this more

[old mantle]

finally, someone who knows what they're talking about.

[orchid prairie]

that's a little bit more acceptable considering they are at the same growth stage (well similar) but its when a deino who hasn't been alive for less that half an hour to sprint back to the water from 50m+ away from land with a 450-500kg dino in its mouth which is the initial problem i have with it

[dusky surge]

Deino as a whole is just a walking disaster atm, same with pachy and carno

[old mantle]

that isn't acceptable either.

that deino was only 30% or somewhere in that range, hold on.

[orchid prairie]

the carno looked maybe 30-40% im just guessing here

maybe less

[orchid prairie]

i said a little more accpetable i still despise deino being able to do that as well lol

[old mantle]

deino was 33% and already large enough to lunge 1250kg carno.

not sure what exact growth carno would be at that size, but it's definitely more than 30-40%.

[orchid prairie]

50%?

[old mantle]

possibly? maybe a bit more.
still stupid.

[orchid prairie]

ye deino is a big problem when they can just give you the middle finger grab you and you cant do anything when especially when its a smaller one like in that video

[old mantle]

the problem isn't so much that they can grab you, the problem is how fast they are and the fact that they can grab you in the middle of a field and have enough stamina to run back to the water.

[orchid prairie]

the speed is ridiculous and stamina too

i normally hate stego but i am glad we do have its the only thing standing in the way of the land deino take over

[hollow canyon]

it was much bigger than that, you're underestimating it because of how big Deino seems to be

you can kill fully grown Carno with a Deino after some ~90 minutes of growing

been there, done that

but yea some people will ask you "why is that bad" lol

"deino is very balanced"

[neon willow]

I mean, this would be fixed if lunge obeyed the same dragging rule carrying does. Lifting heavy objects is hard and slows you down. If you try to move a really heavy objects, you drag it instead

[torpid dragon]

Never changing balance between little temmies and devs, buff raptor -> next patch nerf raptor and buff everything else lol Time to find more mature dev team that will listen smart people, not crying little temmies

[golden coral]

... xD

[willow cliff]

we have heard your complaints and decided to nerf the dryosaurus!

[thin mantle]

An animal that remained far to powerful for far too long

[mossy grove]

that was days ago and 3 zebras are nearly the same to one stego

[dusky surge]

Lmao raptor was OP, the concept that it didn’t deserve a nerf and that “crying little timmies” nerfed it is hysterical. It’s like saying that carno or pachy getting a nerf in U6.5 is unwarranted and only appealing to little timmies

[hollow canyon]

^

[dusky surge]

@silk remnant the fact that pachy can stun animals 4x it’s size atm is one of its greatest flaws and why it’s so ridiculously overpowered and broken atm

Also fracture isn’t chance based

And stuns work a lot more dynamically atm than how you describe it there

Different attacks effect different weights with different stun types

[random stump]

Well you see the carno simply should've expected the deino 5 miles inland, and its totally fair for the deino to be able to sprint at full speed and still have stamina to drown the carno, oh and ofcourse we drain the carnos stam while its grabbed, just to make sure the deino gets that well deserved kill!

deino grab is almost as overtuned as bob mosa grab

[cyan root]

I genuinely wouldnt mind the grapple/grab if there was counterplay besides “don’t drink”.

[tired urchin]

#balance-feedback message

[tired urchin]

Steg would be more a like a hippo to deino more than zebra

@rigid island

[rigid island]

Hmm even that is not a great comparison. Again, a full grown hippo is heavier than a nile crocodile. Where full grown deino's are heavier than a stego

[rigid island]

The problem is that if you're even remotely close to water you can risk getting grabbed like the video. I think grabbing is a core mechanic so shouldn't really be changed, but the specific scenario that was shown here should not be possible. I think the main fix would be a big speed reduction when grabbing something.

[tired urchin]

I think that crocs bellow 50% growth should only be able to grab 24% ofbthere body weight

25%*

[tired urchin]

Zebras are a prey animal though

[rigid island]

well are we gonna compare real life situations to hypothetical ones? I just think the weight argument is a good point

[rigid island]

hm not bad, but shouldn't be a hard limit at 50%. Make it scale linearly from 0-100% growth and 0-50% bodyweight or something

[tired urchin]

One sec

[tired urchin]

Ig it's a good point. But irl if deino got a grip on a drinking stegs head. It would be game over

On land I think the steg would win

If it knew how to use its tail

[rigid island]

yeah sure, 1 on 1 a stego could definitely win on land. but now it's almost impossible to win even 3 deinos on 1 stego if he knows what he's doing. The risk is too much as the stego damage is so insane.

[tired urchin]

For now I think it's fine, but I hope deino gets a buff when other apex are added

[alpine plover]

The thing is, why are we using a nile crocodile as a comparison

[dusky surge]

for a prey animal, they sure are violent and kill a lot of other random animals for no reason, not to mention trampling young members of their own kind to death

zebras being treated as nothing more as prey is a massive disservice

[neon willow]

Zebras cause a rather large number of zookeeper injuries... A lot of people assume they act like horses and bolt when they're scared, but zebras have a much stronger fight response than horses, and are more likely to try to kick, trample, body, or bite than horses. Also I haven't seen a zebra bite/kick injury, but I have seen horse bites and horse kicks, and both can be quite nasty

[rigid island]

because that is the real life comparison? Unless you want to complicate things even more by thinking of another hypothetical situation where a hippo comes into contact with a saltwater croc....

Like cmon

[alpine plover]

a more reasonable comparison would be an alligator, considering the physical similarities to the deinosuchus in start contrast to a crocodile.
(deinosuchus is 1st image, alligator is 2nd, and crocodile is 3rd.)

considering as well that crocodiles are much less bulky than alligators, and in turn, weigh less.

[rigid island]

you're missing the point. We're making a real life comparison to see how a deino vs stego fight would be. The comparison the pro stego side was making is that a croc can't take on a elephant/rhino/hippo. But hippos are far bigger than nile crocs, where deino are bigger than stegos.

And now you're talking about alligators which have nothing to do with the comparison

I know deino's are more like alligators than crocodiles. While a cool fact, it is not relevant to the discussion here

[alpine plover]

alligators are much more similar in size to a hippo, but ok

[rigid island]

yeah again you don't get the point at all

just stop please

[alpine plover]

technically it is, since we are considering weight and mass, along with bite force

[rigid island]

Nope i can tell you don't get it

[alpine plover]

if you don't want people joining the argument don't post it in public.

[rigid island]

I do, but you're not even trying it seems

Alligator vs hippo is not a real life scenario

We needed a real life scenario to compare the deino vs stego hypothetical scenario

Or at least, that is the argument pro stego side came with

crocodiles cant beat elephants, so deino shouldnt beat stego

i disagree, and the comparison is stupid

[alpine plover]

okay well what I'm getting is you're going way more specific than you need to be and you're getting mad at me for not understanding the specifics that YOU put in place

[rigid island]

stego is not to a deino like an elephant is to a croc

Nah im not too specific, im just sticking to defending against the weird argument the other side was making

[alpine plover]

well I mean uhh- let me jump back

[alpine plover]

you replied to someone somewhere (i forget where and can't find the message) saying "it's not like a zebra, more like an elephant/rhino" with something along the lines of "no because of weight differences" and they replied "I was more referring to defense mechanisms (tusks, horns, etc.)"

[rigid island]

Yeah i didn't say that, that was someone else

[alpine plover]

oh mb

well still, you're going into a flux of specifics to non-specifics that I don't get

[rigid island]

i didn't mean to get mad, it just annoyed me how you stepped in without having read the discussion. But we can gtet back to the point if you want. It was an interesting comparison but flawed in my opinion

how do you see it

should a deino win 1 v 1 vs stego?

[alpine plover]

it's all good dawg, we make mistakes

[rigid island]

ofc a croc wont win vs elephant, but a deino is way more likely to win the fight vs stego than a croc vs an elephant

[alpine plover]

I personally think a 1v1 in completely fair circumstances (on land, no running away) a stego should win, considering the bulkiness of them outside of weight (fat placement), and deino's bite force / fighting style (they can't scratch, only bite)

[alpine plover]

yeah that does make sense

[alpine plover]

but in a 2 or 3v1 (2+ deinos, 1 steg) the deinos should win, considering steg can only focus on 1 thing at a time with its attacks

[rigid island]

So a full grown deino is still like 30% heavier than a stego, and in the animal kingdom weight is one of the most important determining aspects of who wins a fight.

[alpine plover]

to be fair I'm considering it more in the paleo perspective than the ingame perspective

[rigid island]

Well right now, 2 deino vs 1 stego, the deino are at a huge risk of losing at least one deino because of the ludicrous damage of the tail swing

Yeah me too but i try to relativate it

[alpine plover]

indeed, but considering the thickness of the body area of a steg (they have lots of chonk around their belly / vital organs) and deino is more widespread along their body along with their jaw muscles taking up a decent amount of that, and even though they have thick skin, a full-force tail swing could easily puncture their skin. Considering they have much less protection of their organs, it would leave them very vulnerable in a 1v1.

Not to mention deino comes up to like.. stego's knees so it would be hard to even get at the belly.

also the length of their teeth vs the length of the tail spike is another thing to consider

[rigid island]

Now we're getting to the specifics, a stego drinking water and a deino lunging at it's head.. should do quite a bit more damage than it now does. IRL that would probably be a 1 shot

Yeah i think we generally agree

I just think people are a bit dishonest for defending the current state of the stego

[alpine plover]

Yeah that would definitely be a 1 shot

[rigid island]

but you seem reasonable

[alpine plover]

exactly, I am a stego main but I care about balancing. I would frankly enjoy having a challenge

[rigid island]

especially considering the stego head size.. lol it is tiny

[alpine plover]

yeah tiny peanut head, thin skull, that sucker's coming right off

[rigid island]

imagine a big croc lunging on and start rolling it would pop off

[alpine plover]

like a strawberry off of its stem

[rigid island]

yikes

I've played some carno and deino so far, stegos are the bane of my existence

[alpine plover]

But yeah, in the right circumstances (in paleo perspective) they are very well matched, but currently in-game mechanics need to be changed for it to be realistic

[rigid island]

Agreed

[alpine plover]

exactly, they are much too powerful and locational damage is much too slight

[dusky surge]

Completely untrue. Wolves, snakes, wild dogs, hyenas

[tall bronze]

Spiders kinda

🕷️

[rigid island]

Those are not "fights". Your examples are either pack animals vs solo animal or chase to exaustion or venom/trap. In a 1 on 1 situation there are few exceptions to the rule of body mass.

[dusky surge]

we dont have a modern day example of animals with such weaponry like a stegos that are still outweighed by predators so it's really difficult to compare them to anything modern

[thin mantle]

You’d need something like a Cape buffalo to get attacked by an allosaurus

To see how modern animals fair in those scenarios

Because more often than not, prey items with sufficient weaponry outweigh their predators

Disregarding the fact that the matchup in question is an absolute meme

Deinos entire existence is antithetical to hunting creatures in stegos size range consistently

[dusky surge]

like, i'll be honest, comparing stego to anything modern is a useless and arbitrary practice, because there's no currently existing real life world matchup where we have animals with biologically perfect self-defence weapons like a stegosaurus, nor do we have a great deal of quantity of predators that are MASSIVE

[thin mantle]

Tail mounted weaponry is already rare enough…let alone tails that have significant muscle and power devoted to making those weapons powerful and dextrous

[dusky surge]

tail mounted weaponry is seen in insects nowadays, and that weaponry usually comes with venom or irritants, rarely on a goliath like a stegosaurus which relies on power above all

[thin mantle]

Never are tail mounted weapons designed with power behind them

The closest we get to that are crocodilians and cetaceans

[dusky surge]

even in real life, i truly can believe a stegosaurus could shut down an attacking deinosuchus with well-placed blows

[thin mantle]

Which are NOT analogous

[dusky surge]

let's not even discuss the fact that stego is grossly undersized in the isle, with real life counterparts getting RIDICULOUSLY huge

but even all this aside, comparing deinosuchus to a nile crocodile is bizarre

not only is deino just... not a croc at all, there's no valid animal that covers stego's niche besides animals that just outsize and invalidate said croc

[thin mantle]

The fact that people want a terrestrial death roll for deino because animals a 10th of its size irl can do that with great effort and strain is honestly quite funny

[thin mantle]

The closest irl analogue to stego would be an elephant….an elephant

[dusky surge]

for this comparison we'd need a gator one third larger than an elephant's weight

and even then it'd still make little sense

because elephant tusk ≠ thagomizer

[thin mantle]

The fact that animals half deinos size can die via tripping let alone a full size deino turning itself into a bayblade…

[dusky surge]

the whole issue with deino primarily derives from its playerbase's complete aversion to non-favourable matchups, or more specifically, matchups that can't be solved in a single button press

[thin mantle]

The playable has unfortunately conditioned players to expect maximum value from zero effort

[dusky surge]

my main issue with deino is that literally everything is being made out to be black and white for it, nothing displays this more than its "matchup" with spino

where the matchup is it losing

[thin mantle]

Water clarity, terrestrial defensive charge bite…removal of lunge stun

[dusky surge]

god i want a defensive charge bite

[thin mantle]

Fix its absurd land stam ontogenetically

[dusky surge]

deino should be most prepared in a defensive situation against apexes

again, still can't do anything against a stego that doesn't want to die

[thin mantle]

And even then I don’t really care about stego still soloing even a defensive deino

Cuz it’s…stego

It has the luxury of attacking without its face

[dusky surge]

lmao

[thin mantle]

I honestly wish I had some sort of metric to view that would let me see how much time I’ve spent discussing deino specifically over the past 3 years

It has to be in the hundreds

Not like I can verify but my bet is somewhere in the 300 range

[tall bronze]

🐊 👈

[thin mantle]

[tired urchin]

To tigers and crocs they are prey animals anyway.

[dusky surge]

the hell kind of zebra is wandering into tiger territory

[thin mantle]

Clearly you forgot about the African Savvanah tiger otherwise known as the Lion

Their stripes are invisible when exposed to oxygen

[dusky surge]

Also even if he was talking about lions and accidentally said tigers

Zebras will still kick the hell out of lions

And mess them up big time

Documentaries showing zebras getting tackled by lions aren't indicative of how that interaction goes consistently irl

Zebras are violent little bastards who can and will stomp a lion to death if given the opportunity

You expressing your dislike for this truth doesn't really change the fact it's still true lol

Zebras kill a LOT of things because they want to

They literally do what Isle players like to call "herbi cannibalism" where they will beat young zebras to death

[thin mantle]

The reasons why those hunts are predominantly represented is BECAUSE they’re rarer, lions fail far more hunts than they succeed in.

[dusky surge]

also no one wants to see what zebras do to other animals because that's not "survival of the fittest", that's just video footage of zebras being violent assholes

people like zebras as these cool majestic striped horses, not as violent, evil rage donkeys

because in reality zebras are just donkeys but stripy and more violent

yea but im just saying because we're talking about zebras

and there's a common misconception they're just majestic savanna ponies

[thin mantle]

They do that sometimes…

No

That’s simply incorrect, oftentimes prey becoming aware of the presence of a potential threat will prompt them to attack it

The only times they don’t is when they judge the engagement to be worth less than it would bring

Hesitation is a result of uncertain outcomes and a lack of confidence

If you possess either in even small quantities you can be motivated to do anything

The world is more nuanced than that unfortunately

[mossy grove]

ok i said wrong at first i am saying if the lion is sittin on a rock halfway across the savanna and the zebras can barely see him they wont run after the lion

[thin mantle]

Most of the time probably not

[mossy grove]

yay

[thin mantle]

Although something like a Cape buffalo or a hippo very well might

[mossy grove]

yep that do happen tho hippos are freaks

[thin mantle]

Male elephants in their season will kill anything with a pulse

Oh don’t even get me STARTED on Moose as a species

[mossy grove]

yeah they are utter monsters at that time

[thin mantle]

Dear god those animals crawled out of every layer of hell to torture life as a concept

[mossy grove]

true tho true

[thin mantle]

Fun story, I live in the northern US, meaning Moose are a thing we deal with regularly…
A few years ago my friends car had its entire engine block mangled and punctured, 3 of his 4 doors were ripped off, and there was a moose hoof shaped hole through the windshield because they can kick hard enough to rend steel….

Moral of the story, herbivores are clearly not aggressive

[mossy grove]

k this might have to go to offtopic

[thin mantle]

I mean, it’s relevant:p

[mossy grove]

mhmm

[thin mantle]

But yeah when I see a teno coming across the plains to kill me, it being a herbivore has never even crossed my mind tbh

[mossy grove]

all i can think of when that happens to me is "why tho"

[thin mantle]

Because you’re a potential threat

It’s better to kill off competition or predators before they get the chance to ambush you

Taking a fight on your terms is always preferable

[mossy grove]

yeah i understand that but most of the time i zoom away faster than the speed of light then when i get somewhere safe to rest- beep beep beeeeeeeeeeeeeep

[thin mantle]

Mhm, juvis are certainly quite viable rn

Well accept like… dryo

[mossy grove]

yeah they are it is pretty cool

[mossy grove]

i forgot about him

[thin mantle]

I try to

Because thinking about dryo makes me sad

[mossy grove]

same

[thin mantle]

Dryo was once fun

[mossy grove]

in legacy...

[thin mantle]

Nah it was in U5

[mossy grove]

that was a thing????

[thin mantle]

Mhm

We’re on update 6 rn

[mossy grove]

yep i know

[dusky surge]

you're forgetting when it was extremely OP in U3 lol

[thin mantle]

Oh don’t remind me

75dmg peck dryo

The amount of carnos I ate in that update

[hollow canyon]

update 3 Dryo was literally a killing machine, a group of those was like a group of piranhas. They had high attack force, reasonable HP and they were extremely expendable as they grew to full adult without eating and drinking.

[dusky surge]

its so funny that people overlooked this powerhouse because they are inherently repelled from small animals

by the time they realised it, it was changed

[hollow canyon]

I don't even think people realised that

I haven't seen any Dryos around at the time

until the very end

aside from the "people in the know"

[dusky surge]

lmao

god i still find it funny how people think U3 was one of the most balanced updates

the only good herbivore was entirely overlooked, everything else was just weaker than carnivore counterparts

deino was one of the most godly it's ever been

and 95% of the playerbase was a carnivore at any given time because they were all better than herbis except for dryo

[hollow canyon]

Stego stomped Deino on U3 itself

U3.5 Deino ate it alive

and when U.375 rolled out we've arrived where we are now

U3 itself was overall a joke thought

due to how hitboxes worked

admittedly that aspect also didn't work in U2 and previously

[rigid island]

I don't think anyone has problems with herbis being able to defend themselves in a 1 v 1 of similar weight, but right now some are just a tad too strong and people just play them as glorified carnis, playing so aggressive when irl herbis would not often be the one to start a fight. I think this is because it is kind of boring to be a herbi so people seek interaction with other players in other ways. So what can they do to divert herbis from being aggressive?

[rigid island]

Nice 🍒 picks

I didn't claim they never are aggressive

But probably not to the same degree like I see on evrima every day

[bright oasis]

Giving people more things to do, new map to eventually explore, incentives to not fight and die as often like elder growth, perks, unlockable skins for reaching the end of elder and passing away. Incentivizing people to not want to constantly fight and work towards an end goal is a huge step. And elders and perks are in U7, so 2 updates away.

[golden coral]

That's mostly because well, the only fun thing to do is fight, this goes for both carnis and herbis. But yeah, pachy is currently a little too good at murdering things above its weight class, but aside from that, herbis are pretty fine.

[distant torrent]

except teno sadly with carno interactions. it’s too easy to steam roll a herd of them with rams. 1 carno is bad enough, but they’re screwed if there are 2, let alone 3

[golden coral]

Well yes, carno has some issues but we're getting the hitbox fix and that should help a good deal (hopefully some lower damage on charge, would also be nice), I was more so speaking that herbis in general are pretty fine. Dryo needs some help, and pachy obviously needs to not be able to entirely lock down a carno or teno (poor tenos). But someone earlier felt herbis were too strong, and I don't think they are (pachy isn't really strong, it's a specific issue really).

[distant torrent]

dryo fr needs some help

but herbivores do need to be strong to defend themselves. if they can’t outrun or out maneuver their predator, they should be able to be able to reliably defend themselves. no one wants to play something too weak to the point where they easily get steam rolled and can’t even run away

[rigid island]

Then the system should work a bit different, making it easier for carnis to find herbis or something so there's more fights. Herbis starting the fight doesn't make a lot of sense, especially when they're equal weight or smallerthan the carni.

[slim dragon]

Herbis should be (allegedly) discouraged from attacking carnis, not forced to because they cannot hide.

[rigid island]

We just established that part of the reason herbis attack is because fighting is fun and otherwise being herbi would be boring... What are you trying to say

[slim dragon]

I am trying to say that nerfing herbis ability to hide and survive is not a good way to make them more fun

The ultimate goal should be to survive, not to fight everything all the time

[golden coral]

I don't think we neccesarily want more fights, I was just explaning why everyone behaves that way, no matter what they play. And well, herbis can and do start fights, if they see the carni and it's at a disadvantage, why not? Why let it try to set up a better hunt if you can prevent it?

[golden coral]

Proper hunting for carnis, proper defensive behaviour. Choosing a "fight" that is in your favour and maybe ask yourself a bit more often "is this worth it/do I want to go about it this way" and so on?

[slim dragon]

Yep
Cerato, if implemented well, might be the first step in that direction

For the first time we're gonna have an animal that encourages not fighting to the death

(Pachy is supposed to as well but for now it doesn't work super well)

[golden coral]

Cerato will hopefully be really interesting yes, I'm looking forward to seeing how that'll all play out

[fallow blaze]

I understand what you mean and please excuse me for interfering.
I would just like to add.

I actually think that with the Cerato an unprecedented level of cannibalism will ensue.
The way his profile was written suggests that he will meet other Ceratos often.
There will be too few corpses for so many.
the Cerato is very popular.
It will be a battle of demand and supply.

of course I can be wrong. but it has potential.

and if his development should be strongly based on the profile, then he will replace the Carno.
According to his profile, he should take less damage from larger animals and have a certain resistance to bleeding.

if that's the case, we may have a new Leader on the food chain.
I would like it. Because larger animals will be release in future and until then a new animal is welcome to lead.

it would only be natural. not every animal has to be defeated in 1vs1. It's not like that in the real world either.
that would doesn't make The Isle a worse game either. On the contrary. this makes survival even more.
that would be balancing as well.
a food chain consists of several levels.
and theoretically the top chain would only have to fear its own (except for hunting packs or herds from the middle chain).

I hope that the isle will go in that direction in some way.
where you don't have to discuss: for example, I can't stun Rex as a teno. It makes no sense to be able to do that at all. that would be no balancing if you're able to do that.

[dusky surge]

if cerato replaces carno and completely takes its position in the food chain, it's a fundamental failure and i hate it

cerato being just a dominant, unbeatable monster designed to kill every other land carni in the game and be entirely unapproachable, that's just stego. People already hate stego. The fact that people love the idea of a cerato acting EXACTLY as stego does now, but carnivore, while HATING stego is such a hilarious irony

cerato would be a lot more interesting if it exists to be a part of the food chain, not dominate it

[fallow blaze]

that would only depend on how strongly he is oriented towards his written profile.
We don't know to what extent that will affect his stats. Mayve its too powerful written to hype everybody. I was just loud thinking about it.

[dusky surge]

cerato is written to be slow, low damage and small

people just read what they want to read

it has clearly defined downsides

[willow cliff]

Ceratorex fans explaining why it needs to solo the entire roster

[fallow blaze]

I didnt forget that.
disadvantages can be offset with good advantages. but like I said before, we don't know the values.

[dusky surge]

if cerato ends up being leader on the food chain, it very much invalidates pretty much all of its design ideas

a scavenger animal with a sceptic bite to avoid prolonged fights, that also hunts well and kills everything

[willow cliff]

Tbh I don’t like the idea of Cerato absolutely destroying carno, it should be a fairly even fight but it would be absurd for cerato to just to tank hits from the nearly 2 ton ambush predator