balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

it's completely accurate to the actual tail, it's actually impressive how well its done

no one is kidding

this isnt a bait or something, this is a legit thing

[thin mantle]

I never bait...it's a waste of time

[dusky surge]

stego's tail has one of the best made hitboxes in the game

just because lag influences the hits to look like they hit when they shouldn't isn't reflective of the actual hitbox

the actual hitbox, in a no-lag environment, is perfect

[thin mantle]

It especially looks bad for attacks that have a short activation time

Like bites or tail swing

Because they appear on keystroke instead of having a windup

Like nobody thinks teno's slam has a bad hitbox despite it actually extending slightly further past the end of the tail's model

Because the timing on that attack rarely means that that nub at the end will be noticed

[vagrant coyote]

na, tenos slam is perfection

[dusky surge]

not as much so as stego's swing, ironically

[thin mantle]

As an attack it's fantastic, but I'm just telling you objectively how the hitbox relates to the model

[dusky surge]

teno is given leeway and an extended/oversized hitbox, stego is extremely tight to the actual tail model

[thin mantle]

I don't actually take much issue with that extension because oftentimes it's necessary to prevent damage trades

[dusky surge]

yea, necessary thing

carno xeno jaw, however, was an inexcusable thing

[thin mantle]

However stego has enough reach to where that isn't needed

[vagrant coyote]

Stegos has always been a bit wacky for me, ig

[thin mantle]

And thus, it's hitbox is super solid

[thin mantle]

It might also be a factor of the hit registering properly and the game taking a second to both process the damage, and transport the body to the tail

Which often looks quite off

[dusky surge]

that does happen

[vagrant coyote]

yea-

[thin mantle]

But the damage application is almost universally on model

[vagrant coyote]

anyway, good talk boyos, imma go to bed

[thin mantle]

Gn cya

[vagrant coyote]

night

[alpine plover]

@frail heron Because that's what they were in real life, Apex's lmao, they were on top of the food chain, being able to kill things like rex

[hollow canyon]

@polar vine It's a bug, Carno's attack socket is bugged and ends up hitting your body on tailhits which causes you to take far more damage than you should be taking. It should be fixed with the next update, the QA are aware of this issue.

[golden coral]

@winter dragonNo, deinos should not be killing stegos, unless they team up. They already kill most of the roster in one shot, they don't need to hunt fully grown stegos as well, when they can one shot younger ones like the rest of the roster.

[slim dragon]

"easily"

[thin mantle]

That’s still hilarious to me

Nothing in this game at full adult should be dying easily

That’s the entire point of the concept of viability

[dusky surge]

This is the most passionate and defensive I've seen anyone get over asking for a small stam buff to dryo, as if they were speaking forbidden ideas that would be shunned by everyone
#balance-feedback message

[golden coral]

Hm?

[dusky surge]

i just like how passionate he is

[keen plover]

People STILL wanting Deino v Stego to be either 50 / 50 or Deino sided 💀

[dusky surge]

the statement "whoever attacks first, wins" shows its meant to be deino sided lol

[keen plover]

Lmao it's sad. Even with all these buffs to Deino, they still want more

[dusky surge]

apex carnivore must win all fight

[keen plover]

It needs kneecapping instead of any more buffs

[dusky surge]

ecosystems and niches aren't real, it's all about size

bigger = better and wins against smaller

unless its omni who should solo stegos

[keen plover]

Yeah. I'm glad these takes don't make it to actual balance

[tiny thicket]

irl Crocodiles have a weak-point in their neck which modern day Tigers and Jaguars take advantage by digging their fangs and breaking the vertebra of so bigger is not always equal to better. I can imagine omni digging its sickle claws into a sub-adult deinos neck to paralyze it. Same goes for stego it has a tiny and vulnerable head which needs to be protected at all cost. So whoever hits the weak spots consistently wins. Thats why I suggested Each part of a playable having its own seperate healthpool as having a single 8000 healthpool without any weaknesses are characteristics of a bad RPG where boss has unnatural amount of hp and difficulty is artificial and not real. Using current health=weight logic even further say omnis head weighs 85 kg so its head should have 85 hp whereas the body weighs 150 kg so body has 150hp each of the hindlegs weigh 50 kg each and front limbs weigh 20 kg and tail weighs 75 kg so 75hp so total weight would be 85+150+(2 times 50)+(2 times 20)+75=450 kg so 450hp in total.

[carmine root]

when deinos run out of stam when drowning something, yes they should be stunned for 2-3 seconds for a consequence for lunging at low stam or running out, but if they let go before they run out of stam, they shouldn't be stunned, right?

[sonic flame]

@fallen vale what do you mean teno stealth nerf? No such thing happened

Kick has always been a pretty precise hitbox, so worse latency this patch may be impacting your ability to land it, but the hitbox size wasn't change at all

it's been the same since, if I recall, update 3

likewise the tail slam camera detection wasn't changed, and checking it myself had it working fine, so I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that it doesn't work now

some of the kicks in the video you showed missed, but due to your camera angle it might've made it seem like you were closer than you were, tho it is quite difficult to tell given hitboxes are only active for a single frame

[fallen vale]

the hit registration on 6.0 is a mess then compared to previous versions. It felt much more snappy / forgiving on 5.5 & 5.0. Some abilities get off worse than others. On the contrary landing a charge as a carno is a big joke on top of the massive turn speed buff

[sonic flame]

Carno's charge turn got buffed and it's able to activate it a lot faster, but the hitbox for it wasn't adjusted either during 6.0

so I'm fairly certain it's just poor performance/latency screwing with hit registration

[fallen vale]

I didn't say the hitbox got adjusted. I said the hit registration is a mess which ends up advantaging some abilities and more or less and nerfing others

[sonic flame]

Carno's charge is a constantly repeating hitbox so it is far more difficult to miss due to timing vs things like Teno's kick

[sonic flame]

I know, I am just clarifying that no hitbox adjustments took place, as it's a common misconception

[fallen vale]

Good to know. There as been stealth nerfs in the past which is a pretty poor practice or just forogtten when writing the patch note. Which sets a precedent

I remember they buffed the teno kick distance I think in 5.5. Right now it feels worse than pre buff

[sonic flame]

those are incredibly few in number to be fair, it's only happened a handful of times over the game's lifespan

yeah update 5 saw the hitbox adjusted to be a bit longer and not as wide as it used to be

[fallen vale]

Still sets a precedent. 6.0 had a few actually. Including ptera turn speed and utah turn speed nerfs which I don't think were mentioned in the patch note

[sonic flame]

because before it didn't go all the way out to the toes and could hit from like 2 body lengths to either side

[fallen vale]

so though to tell what is a nerf, what is just buggy

[sonic flame]

The Ptera turn speed wasn't mentioned in the balance changes but I'm pretty sure the bug that caused it to be slowed down was in the fixed bug section, since that wasn't a dedicated balance change

[fallen vale]

wait it was a bug?

[sonic flame]

tho Omni and Dryo and the other animals that got turn nerfs, supposedly, didn't have their turn rates adjusted

[sonic flame]

Yes, being able to turn so tightly is why you could fly backwards

[fallen vale]

I meant now it turns like a truck

[sonic flame]

no, that was changed because tight turning like before let it go backwards, which was obviously bugged and got patched out, as opposed to it being a specific balance change of Ptera turning too fast for combat or whatever

[fallen vale]

then the turn speed got nerfed..

[sonic flame]

yeah, and like, there are maybe 2 or 3 other examples across all the patches, but I would much rather you double check with someone on if something is bugged instead of assuming a stealth nerf was done

when stealth changes happen they are annoying for everyone involved, but they are also very rare

[fallen vale]

Okay but there was at least 2 in this patch so it's tough to tell what is a stealth nerf and what is just bad hit registration since some abilities are also having bad hit reg but being advantaged by it. Which is what I mean if we can't trust the patch notes then I just give feedback in relation to what I observe in-game

[sonic flame]

You could always try asking if something was changed intentionally or if it is a bug

[wet sleet]

Mine doesn't. It still turns really tight just not ridiculously so. I can still circle above one swarm for fish while skimming for example. And I have seen other Pteras turn tight as well.

If yours turns like a truck there might be another bug.

[dusky surge]

@merry flint ptera isn't, not should it be, a combat animal. It's already one of the most viable animals in the game, and no nerf has ever been able to take it out of S-Tier for the simple fact it cannot die unless it feels like dying

[merry flint]

i mean sure u can afk on top of rocks and nothing can reach u. But i find that the issue, it gets very bland.
im not saying it should become very good at fighting, but having absolutely 0 threat even to most babies is boring.

[dusky surge]

ptera isn't really for you then. Not every animal is a combat animal, and not every carnivore is good at hunting other animals

ptera used to be literally nuts (and still is because it can literally fly). Capable of taking down stegos solo with no counterplay, having enough health to survive attacks it had no right surviving, even now it has the best bite force to weight ratio in the game

[merry flint]

and now it is completely useless combat wise, the aerial bite might as well be removed.
An in-between/balance would be nice

[dusky surge]

it is not completely useless lol

it can still attack animals without counterplay

as long as it can fly, it can attack with ease

[merry flint]

And do 0 damage with those attacks, and die to huge hitboxes that didnt even hit it, that is if it doesnt crash because of the miniscule hitbox on its bite

idk thats how it plays

[dusky surge]

i dont know what ptera you're playing but none of that is true

ptera has exceptional bite force for its size, can avoid most hitboxes because it can fly (and most bites are aimed downwards, not upwards) and ptera can easily just fly over anything and peck it with a good distance (given it can't jump)

[merry flint]

Id be interested to see u playing ptera and attacking dinos. To my experience for any pteras ive seen, 70% of the time they end up dying if they persist, 30% they give up and dont get anywhre

Ive never seen a ptera killing or even scaring anything at all

Ill look out more for it

[dusky surge]

i personally dont fight much when i play as ptera because i find the whole experience extremely lame to play as and against, since it's a lot of chip damage that the victim can't do anything about, hence why I don't want its combat to be improved, but I've seen enough people pull off kills as ptera in U6 to remain firm on my stance on it staying as-is and not receiving any combat buffs

i dont get the joy in "cool my opponent can't do anything to stop me from killing them", it's dull after the first time

[merry flint]

i think u should definitely try the combat a bit, u may change ur mind about it

[dusky surge]

i have, i hated it

it wasn't combat, it was a drawn out and boring death for some random who didn't deserve it

[merry flint]

ye im against that

[dusky surge]

if you're against that, you have to understand why ptera can't be buffed. A skilled player can simply just not get hit ever and chip damage you to death

It's SUPER lame

[merry flint]

i meant try it out more, as u said u dont fight much. U will find that u will rarely kill anything, much more than u will die crappy 1second deaths

[merry flint]

well maybe it should be reworked in some way

e.g stamina nerfs

[dusky surge]

i'd hope so, it's a fragile flying scavenger/fisher vs an actual competent combat-oriented animal

[merry flint]

to aerial atttacks

[dusky surge]

or we can just wait for quetz for the flying combat dino

rather than force the fisher/scavenger into that role

[merry flint]

yea maybe we should wait a couple years

[carmine root]

dude omni needs to be streangthened

i cant do anything without dying to carnos

[dusky surge]

omni doesn't need to be stronger

carno needs to be put back into place

[carmine root]

ye

[ashen frigate]

It seems that omnis hitbox is too large

Everything else I ram I have to actually aim at it

[dusky surge]

no, its fine, the charge's hitbox is too large

[ashen frigate]

Ok

[hollow canyon]

I can confirm that this is not down to performance and latency, I checked it at length on a standing target - Carno's charge hitbox extends roughly a yard to each side of it. This might be FURTHER impacted by bad latency and performance which might result in some absolutely absurd hits, however the very baseline is currently flawed.

Tenonto in my experience worked just fine but I didn't test it at length unlike Carno charge.

[hollow canyon]

yea, I wonder if that has anything to do with it being a very small and fragile animal that would fall apart like a house of cards if it was to take a hit by most of the dinosaurs in the game.

In general though - idk about currently but in the past there were people that could kill a Stego or Carno with a Pteranodon simply because neither of those two animals can even fight back against it.

[merry flint]

yea i agree if it is to have any threat there should be some counter-play to it

historically ptera prob would never attack any dinos, but for the sake of the game it would be interesting/fun

[hollow canyon]

hmm I think you might have some potential targets in the future

remember that the full roster is much, much bigger than what we currently have in the game

[merry flint]

yep smaller targets would be interesting in the future

[hollow canyon]

in the finished game there should be at least a few animals that might die to just a couple of Pteranodon's attacks

this is the unfortunate thing about the current state of the game

multiple animals just don't have the targets they'd normally go for

Carno and Deino are the biggest winners because they are both the largest predators that are punch-down playables hunting targets smaller than themselves

...which is pretty much the whole rest of the roster

meanwhile multiple other animals don't have what they'd normally want to hunt

[merry flint]

yeah

also im assuming being snatched out of air is latency issues

ive been snatched out of air like a magnet by stego and deino attacks

many times, not being close to their attacks

[sonic flame]

Teno was the subject there

Carnos charge hitboxes did not get any wider in update 6, it was the combination of better turning and generally worse performance leading to what we see today

[hollow canyon]

No, it really wasn't the better turning and worse performance

in my tests there was 0 turning involved and performance had no effect because the target was standing still

we were specifically aiming around the body

and yet the animal was getting clipped

to say more about this - aiming for each specific body caused the adjacent one to register the hit

for example attempting to hit the tip of the tail caused the base of the tail to register the hit, when I went for the base of the tail I hit the body and so on

I mean I guess this may have been the case in the past and Carno's hitbox has always been this bad but I kind of doubt it

I've never experienced it working like that on any of the previous updates

I'm not saying that this was some intentional shadowy change

more so that it looks like a bug which occurred probably because something else was changed

If you want we can go and test it together in some sterile environment, I could then show you exactly what the issue is

[golden coral]

@naive raft Absolutely not. Omni was way op back then and carno was not much of a threat.

[hollow canyon]

(also Carno's food wasn't even touched)

[sonic flame]

Yes, because the hitboxes was always giant

What I’m saying is people weren’t noticing it as much until charge as a whole become more useful

Hence why you weren’t seeing the swarms of people complaining about how large the hitboxs is until now, a giant hitbox doesn’t matter as much when you can’t reliably hit anyone with it to begin with

Like it had, as far back as I can remember, hit just about one entire body width to either side of Carno

I made a blender mock-up, but something like this is about as wide as charges hitbox has always been https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/987400897426518058/1078071973051121756/image.png

Wait no wrong one lol

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/987400897426518058/1078072045692260412/image.png

Yeah that’s the one

The top is a proposed reduction in size, but yeah the much wider hitbox has been a thing because again, charge used to have trash turning

So it was massive to try and offset that

Now, we have better turning, worse hit registration, and the hitbox is still massive

[hollow canyon]

Yea, the second one is pretty much exactly what I saw in the tests

[sonic flame]

So you are right, the better turning is not solely responsible for the complaining because the hit box is huge

However, that has been the case for a while now

[hollow canyon]

I will be honest - I don't think it's the right approach to artificially increase a hitbox of an animal just because an attack is difficult to land

in such case I believe the right approach is to improve the attack to be easier to land as was done with the charge

[sonic flame]

It was only now, that Carno has easy access to it, that people even noticed it being janky

[hollow canyon]

it never feels right to get hit by something that doesn't look like it connected

but yea this just about answers all the questions, the important thing is that it's known what the issue is and what will be done about it

[sonic flame]

Yeah it was mostly a case of not being able to reduce charge’s hitbox until it was reliable

Now you can consistently connect with charge so the training wheels can come off

[hollow canyon]

Fair enough, I think that even if the attack was impossible to land in normal circumstances it shouldn't be buffed if the animal isn't wide enough to accommodate that hitbox

[sonic flame]

That’s a fair stance to have, but an attack has to still be functional, and evidently the giant hitbox wasn’t much help to early charge iterations

[hollow canyon]

I'd still say that there should be other ways that the team should strive to explore before artificially increasing the hitbox to where the attack connects even if you don't make contact with the animal

[golden coral]

@fallow blazeA fully grown omni died to three dryos? I don't know, but that just seems like one of the worst omni players around honestly.

[dusky surge]

either that or those dryos are NUTS

[fallow blaze]

Maybe😄😄

Even sub carno runs away after some bites of us
We didnt hunt those two. They attackes us☝️😄

[fallow blaze]

nut-fights are sometimes the best

[fallen vale]

👍

[distant torrent]

@vale echo I do agree that omnis are in a sad position right now but I don’t think a buff will fix it. Removing ram damage to tails (aside from the very base of the tail) would most definitely make omni better. Fixing the hit boxes would also make omni far better. You can get hit by a carno from 10 feet away with the ram not even connecting right now and I never had the problem before the update. Even worse, an omni will take crappy bs damage if the very tip of its tail is clipped

[analog mirage]

@vale echo Omni is unchanged. What was buffed was bucking. Just increase the amount of ticks it takes to drain stam. That way you can stay on for more than 1 second

[twilit juniper]

It’s so odd that everyone calls Omni bad for the animal being bad, and not cause it gets invalidated by others cause others are overtuned 💀 Omni gets destroyed by overtuned creatures = Omnis fault/Omni bad appearently

[slim dragon]

These people only play omni so they don't have the full picture
How would they know teno suffers from the same problems as Omni if they never play it ?

[twilit juniper]

True, that makes sense, but it’s still odd cause that’s being explained to them, given proof for said claims and everything, and they still say it’s Omnis fault 💀

Denial 101

[bright oasis]

Maybe they like overtuned playables and wish omni was also overtuned in a similar way so its "fair"

[twilit juniper]

Possible, would explain why almost every omni main abandoned it as soon as 6.5 launched, a easier to fight other players animal dropped

[bright oasis]

I mean they all liked when omni was overtuned last update

[twilit juniper]

Very true, yes, I remember seeing 10+ Omni packs being a common thing 💀

**Utah

But yeah, what you and Bubu said is true, I agree. I have sort of stopped trying to explain to people that Omni isn’t bad and it also isn’t Omnis fault it gets overshadowed 💀

[bright oasis]

Most players are just gonna gravitate towards the most simple brain playstyle.

cough croc cough

[twilit juniper]

Gets proof that Omni isn’t bad, Nah, Omni bad, ur lying 💀

Ok then

[slim dragon]

That's inevitable

[twilit juniper]

[slim dragon]

Even in games that only exist to show off your skill like MOBAs, people cater to the easy-to-play characters and builds

[twilit juniper]

That’s so true, especially up 5.5 Utah, was the easiest strongest playable

[bright oasis]

Rex mains in legacy

[twilit juniper]

We just can’t let those people rule, technically nothing wrong with wanting to play easy, but also, then they shouldn’t try to inforce actual balance and fairness 💀 and call whatever is overshadowed straight up “useless”..

Atleast for isle imo

I can’t wait for cerato and troodon to drop, if pachy and carno isn’t balanced correctly, I will enjoy the barrage of feedbacks about how op cera and troodon is, cause this and that can’t kill it easily 💀✌️

[bright oasis]

The feedback channels are gonna be both a nightmare and the perfect place to sift thru for laughs

[twilit juniper]

It gets to me though man, I try to avoid feedback channels after an update, cause it’s almost NEVER atleast 60% positive, but I can’t stop myself

And then I get mad XD and lose faith in humanity, it feels awful, but it’s like a drug XD

[bright oasis]

Some are incredibly funny. Like how some people want deino to obliterate stego. Or stego should 10 hit an omni. Absurd takes like that

[twilit juniper]

I thought those didn’t even reliably exist

[slim dragon]

That, or people will complain troodonn is useless because 2 troodons cannot kill a stego

And that cera is useless because it can't solo a stego either

[twilit juniper]

💀 oh god, please, I will lose my mind XD

[slim dragon]

Meanhile ptera is the best playable in terms of survivability, and always has been since its release and people are still complaining that it's too weak

[twilit juniper]

I do believe cera will be a better “counter” for stego than carno is, since ppl want carno to fight stegos so badly

[twilit juniper]

Yup 💀

[bright oasis]

I can already see it now. "Troodon is useless solo, cant even 1v1 adult omni"

[twilit juniper]

I will leave the earths atmosphere if that comes true

I’m so gone

[bright oasis]

Omni being 3 to 4 times bigger than troodon:

[slim dragon]

Closer to 10 times bigger if troodon ends up being 50 kg

[twilit juniper]

Ppl already hate the fact that Omnis are a PACK animal strictly, I can’t imagine what they will say about troodon 💀 they don’t only require packs, they require HORDES

[slim dragon]

And looking by its size in streams and phase three, I doubt it'll be any bigger than that

[bright oasis]

I meant physically. Like it looks 3 to 4 times shorter. And most people's opinion on balance is "I'm bigger so I'm stronger". This mostly comes into play when people leave feedback about small stegos and deinos killing adult omnis or sub carnos

[slim dragon]

Yeah, weight scaling is weird tho

Like a normal croc-sized deino might weigh 3 tons

[bright oasis]

That's true. I'm hoping with 6.5 comes much better balance with weight scaling

[twilit juniper]

True, but I get it ever so slightly

Normally it’s “I’m bigger so I’m stronger” when your in the same tier, not when ur a small tier, against a large/apex tier Dino, they will scale with weight much faster at baby ages due to the fact it has to be 8T at full adult 💀

[slim dragon]

There's also the fact people complain all the time about stego, but no one complains about deino despite the fact deino is more oppressive, more dangerous and harder to kill than stego

[twilit juniper]

Also lately learnt that height has basically nothing to do with how big an animal is, you could be short af, and be dense and the heaviest ^^;
(Said that, an adult Omni is taller than a 25-35% deino, but is technically BIGGER)

[bright oasis]

Eat grass and die™️

[slim dragon]

You read my mind

[twilit juniper]

[slim dragon]

(or just my username)

[bright oasis]

Both.

[slim dragon]

When talking about animals, usually weight is used as a measurement for size. So bigger means heavier

[twilit juniper]

Yeah, figured 😅 but figured only lately

[slim dragon]

Otherwise giraffe would be considered the second biggest animal in the world
Right behind an anaconda suspended to a branch

[dusky surge]

guys let me remind you omni fans are the same people who asked for buffs to the animal in U5.5 when it was the best animal in the entire game

you could buff it however much you want and it'd never be enough

[twilit juniper]

Wait did they actually? What was asked?

They had everything, magnet pounce, instant pounce fail recovery, insane bleed, bucking meant nothing, what else did they want 💀

Oh yeah, and Ez pack finding, cause the server was more than 50% Utah

[dusky surge]

stuff like:

give omni the ability to survive a stego swing on one HP (specifically omni, no one else)
increase omni's health because it's too squishy
increase omni's speed because carnos can catch up too easily

those are just some ones i remember off the top of my head

[twilit juniper]

I didn’t know about this

Now I have much less patience and understanding for the ppl that liked and want UP5-5.5 Omni/Utah

Physically stunned

[neon willow]

A lot of people don't understand that survival isn't mortal Kombat. You can't and aren't supposed to fight everything and have a 50% or better chance to win

Sometimes you gotta hide or run or juke until you can get to a burrow/tree/rock

[thorn roost]

hello can someone help me I bought the game today and I play with GeForce now but I can't update it to envrima

someone would be so kind to support me if you know any solution

Does anyone play envrima with GeForce now?

I would be eternally grateful

[twilit juniper]

Yeah.. that’s the sad case.. even if they add a good survival mechanic for dinos, some will still fight to the death when they’re 1-2 hits away from death.. I get currently in 6.5 it’s hard to escape some Dino’s cause of overtune, but that’s getting fixed 💀

[twilit juniper]

What is the problem?? Not being able to switch over to Isle Evrima?

[halcyon elk]

I kinda want a revert to 5.5 with the simple addition of making Omni drain slightly less than what it does now

[golden coral]

What?

[halcyon elk]

I retract my statement. Rather put it in the middle ground between 5.5 and 6

[golden coral]

I was more so hoping for a bit of a clarification. What should be reverted, why, and in what manner? Do you mean revert everything, something specific, and for that matter, what drain, could also use some clarification.

[dusky surge]

please no

please god anything but that

[halcyon elk]

I retracted my statement

[halcyon elk]

What should probably returned is somewhat Stam drain.

[dusky surge]

reverting carno back to... what, ambush carno, except it can't ambush and dies to everything it's meant to hunt

reverting omni to god and removing the coolest and best buff it ever got

revert ptera to the "flies backwards in a circle above your skull and kills you"

pachy is still pachy so its problematic regardless

getting the old dryo dodge back

i truly think U6 made a ton of the right decisions when it came to balancing the animals, the issue is that a lot felt incomplete in becoming actually finished

carno got a charge that's actually not inherently garbage, but the hitbox was far overtuned, because it was the same hitbox used to compensate for carno's horrid horrid charge turn

dryo got a dodge that isn't worthless and had its speed tuned down so it isn't some galli-lite, but ended up sufferign because the stam values werent perfect

pachy literally got buffed, which I'd be fine with, if they didn't also keep the ram stuns exactly as they were

omni got to be actually balanced for once in its life, but because of the fact everything that tries to kill it is busted and stupid, it ended up getting invalidated

also omni mains believe that everything should be an easy prey item to them which doesn't help much

[tall bronze]

If only these got ironed out a lil bit sooner than months in between major updates ;><;

[dusky surge]

the issue is they wanted the update out by the end of the year

that was the goal

[twilit juniper]

#general-feedback-discussion message, yeah, like what I said here 🥲✌️

[twilit juniper]

Most likely, it was very very rushed

[unkempt sierra]

https://youtu.be/ZXbmWywKcz4

Nerf stegos

Kappa

[thin mantle]

Honestly meme balance

Like if compared to stego and allo in the isle that allo is trying to take down a sorta mid juvi stego

[slim dragon]

This video is so wacky

[dusky surge]

ikr

[azure dawn]

I think it would be cool for Stego and Allo to be kind of balanced, to make it a better and more unpredictable fight

[dusky surge]

if a stego is equal to an allo, that's horrible

[azure dawn]

Ok, nvm

[dusky surge]

6 ton animal vs 2-3 ton animal

stego should win logically

[azure dawn]

Yeah, but what about 2x 2-3 ton bleeding bite animals vs 6 ton animal?

[frail bobcat]

How about that allo wont agile enough to reliably bait out swings

Its not just a numbers gamr

[azure dawn]

I know

[frail bobcat]

So 2 allos wont really kill a stego

Because they cant bait the swings

And stego turn on spot is too quick for them, I assume

[slim dragon]

I think 2 allos could stand a slight chance against a stego, but they'd be better off attacking a juvenile

4 would be the ideal number to take on a stego

[azure dawn]

Ok, now off the topic of the Jurassic heavyweights, what about the Cretaceous heavyweights? I think trike and Rex should be balanced with each other

[dusky surge]

thats very much the plan

so much so that they're being added together as an unofficial server option sometime in the near future

[azure dawn]

Ok

[torpid dragon]

Is there a table or sth that can point the cost of stam when bucking? Just got my 80% stam depleted when pachy buck my pounce... Is bucking stam free or they are depleting their stam too?

[slim dragon]

Bucking costs stamina, and animals can't buck when their stam is empty

[torpid dragon]

do you know how much they lose stam when bucking?

even approximately values will help

[slim dragon]

No, sry

[somber sphinx]

@forest raft teno can easily kill a carno and teno doesn’t need a buff carno needs a nerf tho, especially with its new charge

[forest raft]

No, carno is okay, its balanced

Its not a full buff its just at younger ages its stats are horrible

Tenos stats at fg are fine too but its just at like 80% for example, your able to nest but not able to drop a carno and defend urself and your nest

[somber sphinx]

It’s not balanced, it can just spam charge a teno and kill it and the teno can’t escape because of the hitbox and agility of its charge

[forest raft]

If you have braincells you can time the charge and tail slam right and stop the carnos charge

[wet sleet]

Carno is busted, the new charge is way too strong. It was actually completely fine before, aside from the hunger time.

[somber sphinx]

Bleed resistance was ass too

Died to a paper cut

[wet sleet]

Carno didn't need to be overtuned it needed to be able to afford a failed hunt or two.

[forest raft]

True but also the tenos could use a little bit if a health buff tbh

So it can at least survive a stego swing

[somber sphinx]

No, that also means a weight buff

[wet sleet]

Bleed resistance is something you can play around as Carno. Sure, it makes you weaker in combat but that just means you need to pick your engagements better. You need a longer hunger time for that, though.

[somber sphinx]

Teno is perfect rn, it does not need any changes

[wet sleet]

Teno currently gets overshadowed by Pachy (which is essentially the same niche, too) and Carno. But that's not a Teno issue.

[somber sphinx]

Yeah pachy and carno obliterates tenos currently

[wet sleet]

Yeah, both are too strong.

Especially Carno. At least Pachy has low hitpoints and mediocre speed.

[dusky surge]

this i heavily disagree with

old charge was horridly designed

[wet sleet]

You mean by having clear downsides, conditions and counterplay?

[dusky surge]

no

by being a terribly designed move that failed to compliment the niche carno had

can't be used to pursue because the stam drain makes it entirely unsustainable, can't be used to chase because the agility was horrid, barely usable against anything that wasn't a teno, its greatest use was speeding up juvi carnos

i will never support a return to U5-prior carno charge

This charge is a wonderful step in the right direction, with clear flaws in its design

Hitbox, no initial startup cost, knockdown range too high

Dondi already acknowledged the hitbox, the most glaring of these issues

(a hitbox made ridiculously large because the charge couldn't hit anything with two eyes and hands on the keyboard before U6)

[somber sphinx]

The charge should be a tool for small game for carno and a little dmg nerf for charge I’d like too
And it couId still hunt stuff like teno and so on with bites only but if you feel like you can’t do it alone then a friend can help

[wet sleet]

They removed all the downsides. Not really a step in the right direction. If anything a step in the wrong direction that allows to take steps in the right direction in the future.

[dusky surge]

These changes have allowed carno to actually be a plains pursuit hunter that threatens smaller animals

[dusky surge]

You should be allowed to stun tenos and ceras with it, just not knock it down

My current issue with it is that it simply has too high a threshold

[somber sphinx]

A small stun I’m fine with but the thing I fear too is if there are more than 1 carno that could just keep on charging the teno or cera and stun it

[dusky surge]

With a reduced hitbox and a stun only, it'd be fine

[somber sphinx]

Ye, that sound good

[dusky surge]

But carno being returned to the horrid U5 form I will never agree with. The charge is usable now, it needs adjustments, but it's finally actually being a part of carno's kit in fights, rather than a ridiculous stamdump

[somber sphinx]

Yeah never liked carnos old charge either, balance wise it was better (for now) but niche wise it’s much better and suited for carno

[dusky surge]

Yea. Work from here, don't work backwards

We have the foundations for a truly threatening plains predator

[dawn falcon]

“Just use hills bro”

Meanwhile, gateways grasslands and plains:

[golden coral]

The counter play of take one step to the side and you're good to go. Conditions like startup time plus run movement meaning you cant use it properly for ambush because you reveal yourself long before you can attack, instead of attacking at or near point blank. The down side of being useless if your target had seen you at all, but op in packs, which most people dont like carno coming in.

They made the charge properly useful to hunt smaller, more agile and skittish prey. The issues we have now stem from trying to make charge good in the wrong ways. So it is a step in the right direction, that just like with buck chunk drain reveals flaws now that the mechanics are useful. Those flaws need to be fixed, thats all.

[somber sphinx]

@hexed hound the nerf carno needs is:
-charge does way less dmg
-can’t knock down stuff up to 1 tons
-hitbox (obviously and it’s said to be fixed and looked at)
-gets stunned if it hits solid objects and so on

It doesn’t really need a turn nerf on the charge because it’s more useful now and should be more of a knock down tool used for small game

[dusky surge]

i agree with everything but charge doing way less damage

[somber sphinx]

How much dmg do you think it should do? I’d imagine around 100 probably

[dusky surge]

what the hell

no

[somber sphinx]

[dusky surge]

that makes it ridiculously worthless

[hexed hound]

Me too, charge isnt strong bcs of damage, its strong because its not punitive and the knockout is too strong, however the time needed to charge def needs a nerf imo but I agree with the rest

[slim dragon]

If charge damage is reduced, carno's bite damage should be increased accordingly

[dusky surge]

(carno should have a better bite, idk why it was reduced to 175 in the first place, 200 was fine lol)

[somber sphinx]

Oh yeah forgot that too, it should def need more running speed before it couId use its charge

[dusky surge]

i reckon the minimum charge should do is 250

[hexed hound]

It should 2shot raptor pachy

[winter iris]

I’d agree in principle, but as said by others I don’t think a nerf in damage would be sensible. I think the main issue atm, even more than spamming it, is the fact that ram hitbox is often (not always) huge, and that is non sense. That change with, maybe, an adjustment to stam consumption for utah’s pounce could balance the fight a bit more. I wouldn’t, though, do again the mistake of completely changing stats and balance to find another mess in the end. I think the approach, for balance, should be small changes a bit more often. This way it’d be a lot easier to calibrate

[dawn falcon]

@vagrant coyote Chad for not suggestion ambusher Carno

You have my seal of approval

https://tenor.com/view/cute-animals-cute-seal-approve-approved-gif-17095963

[vagrant coyote]

les goooo

na, carno shouldnt be an ambush predetor

they live in massive open fields

they should just have to get gud to be an apex predetor

[dusky surge]

thank god for more people who realise carno is a horrid ambusher

[vagrant coyote]

i mean, it just doesnt really make sense to me

its coloration isnt really..ambush color, and its built for speed in general not just short bursts of it

[dusky surge]

its a pursuit predator, always had been

this is why the old charge was so bad lol

completely useless in a chase and can only "ambush" something that literally isn't paying attention to the game at all

[vagrant coyote]

fax

[dusky surge]

but yea, the worst thing is the hitbox

and im pretty sure the reason it IS that big is because it was put on a priorly completely worthless attack that needed a bigger hitbox to be remotely viable

[vagrant coyote]

its a realism game

why would anyone make the hitbox for a charging animal in a realism game double the size of the actual animal

[dusky surge]

because it literally couldn't hit anything before

[vagrant coyote]

I mean, maybe if they didn't make their game run at a nice, consistent, wonderful 6 frames a second on most pcs, that wouldn't happen

[thin mantle]

Had nothing to do with it, everything could dodge it with their eyes closed lol

[dusky surge]

lmao

old carno charge is literally still up there for "most pathetic special move" in my books

[thin mantle]

Why do people want ambush carno back....

[dusky surge]

you ever wonder why carno used to be nothing but bitespam?

because charging was an active way to fail the hunt

its like you wanted to not catch your prey once you pressed RMB

[tall bronze]

It irks me when you try to point out it's a plains hunter and as such, ambushing would seem odd, and then you're just met with "lol use the hills and bushes lol"

Not like that's all gonna go away with Gateway but whatever. And regardless, a biome being done poorly doesn't make it okay

[dusky surge]

because people assume its an ambush hunter

because people fail to understand the definition

[thin mantle]

Because it (just like literally all predators in existence) would prefer to surprise it's target for an easy kill rather than fighting or chasing it....yes

Clearly a predominantly ambush focused animal

[dusky surge]

plains hunter
focused on huge speed to catch up to fleeing prey
poor turn radius
needs runup to start its charge

yep, ambush hunter

[thin mantle]

Is, ideally, quite loud naturally

[tall bronze]

That's when they just use the bush/hill argument

[thin mantle]

Then you realize they haven't seen gateway

[dusky surge]

And then I present them with "Gateway actually having actual plains"

[thin mantle]

Or just that that argument sucks on it's own merits

[tall bronze]

Mmmhm

[dusky surge]

Also, I genuinely think carno will thrive MORE in open plains

Because it can see its small prey from MILES away

[thin mantle]

Oh easily

And it's harder to throw them off your trajectory without visual obstacles

[dusky surge]

It'll be a terror, and a fun one at that. Gateway carno seems like such an interesting and fun niche

[tall bronze]

I want tall grass >:)

that renders beyond 20 meters

[thin mantle]

I want grass that renders period....

[dusky surge]

I can't get over just HOW cool carno is when its actually treated right with an environment and niche that suits it

We're getting closer every day to an actually good carno

[thin mantle]

Same with stego outside of a roster designed to be angry with it for being good at it's job

it and carno are problematic till they're not it seems

[dusky surge]

Next thing can we remove its ridiculous cannibalism, and instead incentivise territorialism and killing for ownership of land? Seeing as plains will be scattered on Gateway

[dusky surge]

People are still mad at stego lol. Still one of the top-requested "nerf this" animals, despite not even being in U6's top 4.

[thin mantle]

I love carno's killing eachother, but a self sufficient species in most contexts is simply a definitive negative for the playerscape of a server

[thin mantle]

Oh totally, which has always been a bit bizarre since out of all the animals it's the least likely to directly threaten you next to hypsi and dryo...like U5 ptera was a bigger threat than any form of stego since U2

Cuz yknow, you can use your 2-4 healthy legs to meander in a direction vaguely away from it

[tall bronze]

I despise Stego immensely but even I don't think it needs nerfs. I hate it more because it shouldn't exist yet. >:I

[thin mantle]

I just see it as a necessary evil to make deino less cancerous, so most of my roster disdain for stego falls on deino as the source of that issue

[tall bronze]

Both are stinky

Deino for me isn't just that it shouldn't exist yet, but it just disappoints me.

[dusky surge]

Here's the difference between carno cannibalism and cera/deino cannibalism

Cera: Opportunistic, non-hunter carnivore. Eats what it can, when it can, can't afford to be picky. Also very competitive over limited food, which clashes with its own kind.
Deino: Opportunistic, ambush carnivore. Eats what it can, when it can, can't afford to be picky. If something doesn't decide to walk near the water, its already failed the hunt.
Carno: Competent pursuit predator carno. If it sees something, it more than likely can catch up to it and hunt it. It's fast enough to find food quickly, and can end hunts effectively. Already has ample food

[tall bronze]

I would say it's probably the lamest thing in the game currently.

[dusky surge]

I would, however, make carno starve slower

I would do all of my charge changes (less hitbox, stam on activation, knockdown threshhold to 50%), and then make it starve slower. Because it REALLY doesn't need to starve that fast with an actual competent small-game hunter niche.

[thin mantle]

Deino went from most anticipated playable to my least favorite animal to see at all within a few days of it's release...like...man

[tall bronze]

Rugosus even though that fixes only half of it's lameness

[tall bronze]

[thin mantle]

That's also true, tho I still think the predators with a limited agency at finding their own prey/food and catching it shouldn't be able to thrive off their own kind...like in no circumstance do I think cannibalism should be a dietarily incentivized behavior...nor do I think any animal incentivized to group up should be able to cannibalize at all

[dusky surge]

With cera, I think it works fine

But tbh, it also shows a CLEAR issue with our diet system

An organ-dependent system would minimise the sheer amount of raw nutrients this behaviour provides

[thin mantle]

Especially if it's balanced to a lower tier of power that it is now, so that it's consistently going for smaller targets, and practically ONLY smaller targets, so even if it's making consistent kills it's not getting too much food from each one, so that makes sense to me

[thin mantle]

Mhm, I think that's the core of the issue, unfortunately we have both the shopping list and organ specific nutrients instead of just allowing players to eat whatever prey they are able to kill, and gaining some sort of organ based benefit from that alone, because the body's weight in a single diet from the rest of the corpse provides you with SO much

[dusky surge]

Here's my IDEAL U6.5 balance changes for carno

Charge:

• Fixed hitbox
• Reduced the knockdown range to 50% of total weight
• Added a 5% stam consumption for starting up charge

Diets:

• Reduced hunger drain significantly
• Removed carno from the diet list (in the situation they keep these ridiculous lists)

[dusky surge]

Yep, shopping lists remain one of my most hated things for carnivore

[tall bronze]

Stinky

Especially with organs, now it's just there and it shouldn't be

[dusky surge]

Makes carnis easier to grow than herbis, reduces player engagement (due to AI farming), and restricts hunts to SPECIFICALLY a certain part of the roster

What's that mr. adult carno? A juvi stego, perfectly within your hunting range? You COULD kill that, or you could kill something that actually gives you nutrients with its body. The choice is yours.

[tall bronze]

Hunting certain prey over others should be encouraged via your preferred biomes (come migration) and what you're built to hunt. More natural that way.

Having it be a hard-coded list is lame.

[dusky surge]

Hell, you could kill AI for 30 minutes and be fine!

[dusky surge]

Exactly

Let carnivores assess their prey and decide what's a worthwhile hunt

Don't make them go "pachy give more nutrients so me go that one"

Or "I only want carbs so I'm only hunting pachies"

[tall bronze]

"Hmm, I could risk hunting this animal that I am built to hunt, but it is still dangerous to me, leading to an interesting engagement."

".....nah haha boar go protein"

I do not like the idea of AI being a primary food source, even for small stuff

[dusky surge]

(this is in the universe where pachy is an actually killable animal, sorry for the completely ridiculous example where someone doesn't fear a pachy like the devil)

[tall bronze]

At most, it should compliment a diet. Like tiny tiny stuff eating a centipede and other bugs that they catch now and then, but not ONLY those

[dusky surge]

Piscivores are fine, however. I do think certain animals being piscivores and benefiting from said lifestyle SHOULD be encouraged

[tall bronze]

Oh yeah fish are their own thing 😛

I always forget about fish

[thin mantle]

nah carnis should have to micro their macros for the gains💪

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/fish-eating-fish-eating-from-spoon-feeding-fish-fish-food-yngqis-gif-20301545

[dusky surge]

Piscivores, bone eaters, egg eaters, so on

Hell, gimme some insectivores, throw around some termite mounds with some smaller creatures indulging in them

We're getting bees

We have flies

Imagine stuff like Troodon or velo going for termite nests

(those two animals seem really fitting as termite eaters to me for some reason)

[tall bronze]

They are termites

[dusky surge]

Imagine this. Diet lists are no longer lists, but merely telling you "this organ gives this, and also, here's a special thing you can do". So it'd be like

Ptera: Piscivore
Deino: Bone-eater, cannibal, iron stomach (it's not a piscivore because I refuse to allow it to be)
Cera: Bone-eater, cannibal, iron stomach

Stuff like that

[tall bronze]

Gators just seem more like they can eat fish, but that's it

They eat whatever really 😛

They're not like a bird that focuses on fish but sometimes snacks on other things

[dusky surge]

Yea and I refuse to allow deino to survive off fish any longer

Use it to fill your stomach at most

Cope with the lack of nutrients idfc

You're a gator that can eat rot, bones and each other I'm sure you'll manage

[tall bronze]

If adult (even sub) Deinos were actually a rarity, I'd be more okay with it's size >:I

But no, we have to have "haha elite fish go AFK to adult"

But then you get the excuse of "but you can't predict where prey will be because enough to sustain yourself off of them!" and then you tell them migrations but MIGRATIONS NEED GATEWAY FIRST, THEREFORE

Blame Spiro.

[dusky surge]

Again, if the stomach affects nutrient drain by being fuller to slow it down, fish would still be useful to deino because "nutrients, longer" is pretty useful

[tall bronze]

Would they give nutrients still? 😮

[dusky surge]

No

[tall bronze]

[dusky surge]

Not to deino. He has to get his own damn food

Organs, bones, idc, just figure it out

[tall bronze]

I wouldn't mind more dynamic diets over growth, so perhaps little (and I mean little) Deinos could maybe get a bit from elite fish (in the context they are actually hard to catch) but then they give less and less.

If that makes sense.

Not enough to let you skip juvie basically

And also in the context that juvies don't weigh a friggn' ton

Can't fresh spawn Deinos grab an Omni? O_o

[dusky surge]

No

[tall bronze]

Coulda swore they could

[dusky surge]

Also I'm throwing a caveat onto my diet system and adding maneater. Specific diet type that actively benefits from hunting mankind because I want omnis to relish in murder of gen 2

[tall bronze]

I would normally say humans should be good for everything really (and I'm sure to some extent they will be), but I remember Dondi saying something about "nothing is born a man eater"

So perhaps

[dusky surge]

@uncut trellis latency thing

[uncut trellis]

Explain?

[dusky surge]

more lag = weirder hits

for example, a teno can hit you on its screen, but not your screen

you get hit on the body and stunned, but for you, you got hit on the tail

@hasty coyote i'll be honest, rather than individually changing each sub-adult, i'd just have it be

Juvi = more stam
Sub-Adult = more speed
Adult = more power

So sub and adult would have the same amount of stam, but sub is faster and adult is more powerful

Otherwise we'll be constantly changing each animal

[hasty coyote]

Eh, that doesn’t work well with all animals. Like sub dryo or Gali would just be better than their adult counterparts

That’s why I’d rather then make juvies have unique differences. While that system may work well for most, it doesn’t work for all of them.

[dusky surge]

The issue I have is your suggestion is exceptionally specific

[neon willow]

They gave a specific example to give other people a better understanding of their idea... And in general, it's a good idea. Though as new things get added devs will need to consider their growth individually

[dusky surge]

@hexed hound "And stego beats deino 90% of the time. So stego would be able to hit you multiple times and deal high damage, rex would also need more skill when fighting you than just running at you."

Stego beating deino is not equivalent to it beating rex. Deino is slower, likely has a worse turning radius, has less ground stam, has a lower bite force (most likely), doesn't have a staggering headswing like rex, has a lower frame (easier to hit head hitbox instead of legs hitbox). Rex has tons of advantages over deino that make the matchup concerning

Even looking at rex, stego and deino in that size art, you can see how rex would be harder to hit on the head, and with its higher DPS, more stuns and better groundspeed, on top of greater weight and health, as well as a hitbox that puts the head further away from a stego's tail, it's still a massive threat

[hasty coyote]

(plus rex likely weighs slightly more lol)

[forest raft]

Deino should weigh 12 tonnes AT LEAST should be able to grab a stego, prove me wrong

[willow cliff]

💀

[hollow topaz]

..prove yourself right?

[willow cliff]

don’t take the bait

[hollow topaz]

[slim dragon]

Deino should have 10000 biteforce so it can kill rex like in the hope trailer prove me wrong

[willow cliff]

So true

[fresh laurel]

Give spino atomic breath for viability reasons
Trust

[dusky surge]

@wanton meadow you have to keep in mind that stego is meant to be an apex animal, and thus actually hard to grow (but with migrations, this should be solved regardless and not have you sprint across the whole map constantly)

[wanton meadow]

yeah that makes sense it’s just so time consuming i just wish pumpkins would be the slightest bit closer to the others, everything else im fine with the location but pumpkins is where it’s like drawing for straws

[dusky surge]

yea, yea, i getcha

its really dull, but its the only way to make it somewhat hard to grow

this is why we need migrations and gateway lol

make the food not awful to collect as herbis

[wanton meadow]

what does that mean

[dusky surge]

oh, sorry

[wanton meadow]

sorry i’m kinda new so i haven’t really looked into the gateway but i’ve seen people talk abt it LOL

[dusky surge]

all good

migrations are a new feature coming with the new map, called Gateway

basically, rather than go to three different places to get your diet items, you'd go to one BIG place, along with many of your kind, where food would be abundant, however, other areas will become scarcer on food to compensate

[wanton meadow]

ohh that makes a lot of sense

[dusky surge]

because of the fact that the current map, Spiro, has basically zero biome diversity, it can't be done on the current map

because it's all just plains and forest really

the current plans are for U7 to contain Gateway and migrations (which is the update after this one, probably), since the upcoming update is update 6.5

[wanton meadow]

yeah that would help a lot better when it comes to food, just bc the areas in which the current food grows is kind off

[dusky surge]

yea, the current food system is BAD

they had to basically restrict food to random plains areas

because of the lack of proper migrations

[wanton meadow]

do u have a link that talks more abt the gateway ?

i would like to read up on it

[dusky surge]

search up "Gateway" on youtube and you'll find TONS of videos of people playing on the map. I'm not sure if there's a way for me to give you a defined list of things to come with Gateway, tho

[wanton meadow]

okay thanks so much!

[dusky surge]

all good

[tall bronze]

Actually the developers do not consider it an apex c:

[thin mantle]

Despite it needing to be balanced as one by necessity

[tall bronze]

Pluuuuus ya know just saaaayin' it's an heeerbivoooore soooooo apexes are only predatooooors sooooooo 🤓 👍

In all seriousness, I never really liked the concept of tiers, even by developer standards unless they make iit clear what-defines-what, which currently they have not. Like is it merely the size? Is there some simple threshold of weight that defines apex? Because Deino is eight tons yet isn't considered one.....

Is it power? Even then, what defines power? Damage? How much you affect others around you? Your ability to survive?

I want ANSWERS. >:c

[azure crescent]

It’s just a way of organizing the roster into categories lmao

Not that deep

I personally consider deino an apex that specializes in small tiers

Well, mid tiers ig

[tall bronze]

Lots of people considered Deino and Stego apexes, but according to the developers, they are nowhere near that level.

So tf determines apex then

[unkempt sierra]

We’ll imo as a stego main stego is way overpowered, just today I got 19 kills a lot of them were crocs and I’m literally hunting them in the water no fear what so ever, full grown ones too and just slaying them, they need to do one of two things, either nerf the damage or the health pool of stegos, 1250 damage tail swing and the insane health pool on top of it means stegs literally are uncontestable @tall bronze

It’s 100% an apex on the current patch @tall bronze

[tall bronze]

That's odd because Deinos actually can kill Stego fairly easily, it's just most are uh....not really that smart about it Regardless, Deino isn't designed nor meant to hunt things like Stegosaurus and is supposed to swim away. So I'd blame that on the Deino players and not Stego

Though I will admit, I despise Stego's existence right now even though it's not necessarily unbearable. I just hate that something as large as it (same for Deino) exist when we were meant to have small guys first ;o;

[unkempt sierra]

I guess but here’s the thing, the simple fact that you can walk up fully grown and drink and not be scared or fearful of being dragged in is pretty op, none of the other characters in the roster are immune to being pulled in but steg

And technically full grown deinos

@tall bronze

[tall bronze]

Yeah I've never been a fan of just how comfy Stegos can get around em. Though that may change as time goes on.

We know that Stego is gonna get new attacks in the future for example, but they are holding em back because in the current roster, it is not needed.

So Deino may also increase in power as time goes on.

[unkempt sierra]

It needs to because right now on the current build nothing threatens stegs unless they’re are like 10 full grown crocs waiting to ambush a steg crossing the river @tall bronze

And there are hardly ever 10 full grown crocs working together cuz they are all eating each other anyway

[tall bronze]

One thing I hope for is migrations helping a bit with adult Stegos being so common. Gotta expose yourself more to get good food as well as just having a more demanding diet. 6 tons yet there's so many of em, kinda strikes me as overabundant food 😛

[unkempt sierra]

But that’s the thing you don’t have to be close to fully grown to kill adult carnos and one shot adult raptors you only need to be 2.1 tons and you can literally chase down full grown carnos @tall bronze

[dusky surge]

I'd argue it's more OP that deino can easily carry the rest of the roster to their dooms, more than the fact that stego is an outlier to this trend

Also it's not immune, it can be dragged by deino before it reaches 4 tons

[unkempt sierra]

@dusky surge just camp the safe waters

And you will never have to worry about being dragged in

The only time I see deino being OP is land deinos that are like 30-40% cuz they can sprint quick and drag full growns depending on their size

[dusky surge]

this being said, i'm also adamantly against deino posing enough of a threat to stego that it's even stronger than it already is in the matchup. Deino is entirely uncontestable by anything besides stego, whereas tenos, omnis and even carnos have all found ways to kill stego. Without stego being the poor matchup, deino quickly finds itself even more powerful and overpopulated than it already is

[unkempt sierra]

A good nerf would be that you can’t get dragged in when you are full grown on teno, pachy and maybe raptor and Carno

[dusky surge]

Deino has a no-stamina 500 damage attack it can use it will, a move that grabs and can instantly kill anything below half its weight, the ability to safely retreat to the water to immediately save itself from the rare moment it is threatened, more health than stego, insane bleed resist, so on

[unkempt sierra]

But idk

[dusky surge]

That would make deino essentially useless

An 8 ton gator being incapable of dragging in a 500kg pachy

Deino would be a joke

[unkempt sierra]

Ya but it could drag at 499kg and below 🤪

[willow cliff]

[unkempt sierra]

Literally that 1 kilogram diff

[dusky surge]

Most of the time spent playing an animal in The Isle is generally in adulthood

It's quite rare to consistently come across juvis or less than 100% adults

This would not even just cut deino's prey in half, it might as well mean it will never get a meal outside of being a scavenger, or the VERY rare opportunity

[willow cliff]

the school bus sized apex predator unable to grab anything

[unkempt sierra]

Ya, the question is tho should deinos be super threatening on land when they are around 30-40% or just when they are in the water

It should be one or the other imo

[willow cliff]

sub deino has too much stam

[dusky surge]

subs in general have too much stam

[willow cliff]

if its able to grab a full tenonto deep in land, run back and still have enough stamina to drown it there's a major problem

[unkempt sierra]

True

[dusky surge]

I actually don't think deino should be threatening in the same way on land as it is in water

In water, it's an unseen yet always possibly present ambush threat that could attack at any moment
On land, it's a slow and obvious lumbering giant, but a powerful one that you run the risk of dying too, should you get too confident and approach

Nerf deino's offensive capabilities on land, change it to become more defensively capable

[unkempt sierra]

That would be cool

[willow cliff]

i mean deinos size alone can make it scare off most other predators, so it scavenging is quite a viable option, even when we get some of the larger animals deino should be able to hold its own

[unkempt sierra]

Idk I farm full grown deinos on my steg just today I liked 5 @willow cliff

[dusky surge]

Ideally, RMB in water = water dash/lunge. Will lead into a grab attack to drag prey down

RMB on land = a charged bite with INSANE damage (like, 1000 or up) if landed. Slows the deino to a walkspeed while charging, and makes the deino hiss and open its mouth wide, making itself a very obvious threat and disabling any stealth, in exchange for a threatening defensive display/attack

[willow cliff]

well yeah deino isn't supposed to really brawl with much on land of course, but its size alone would make most of the carnivore roster not want to mess with it

if it wants a kill that said animal made

[unkempt sierra]

Ohh no I killed them next to the water fall NW near pyramid rock @willow cliff

Literally bait them to attack and swing my tail

And if multiple come after me i kite them with tail swings protecting my head

[willow cliff]

there's a strat some deinos can pull off to kill stegos, won't really work if the stego knows you're there though

has to be right by the bank and dumb enough not to run away

[unkempt sierra]

Stun lock?

[willow cliff]

no

run to the side of their head, alt bite them, try to stay in front of their body

[dusky surge]

my issue with that is that it quickly kinda becomes incapable of doing anything from dissuading larger apexes from messing with its territory, which will only become more problematic when stuff like spino exists

[willow cliff]

deino should beat spino in the water

[dusky surge]

apparently not according to devs

spino kicks deinos ass in and out of water

[willow cliff]

that will lead to some problems

[unkempt sierra]

@willow cliff they try that all the time to be it never works

[willow cliff]

what if you're stuck in some body of water like a pond and your only escape is on land

spino just invalidates your existence ig

[dusky surge]

Yea, it's weird, don't like it

[willow cliff]

there's a multitude of videos that prove the strat works

[unkempt sierra]

Ya but a lot of times you can just run away as the stegosaurus unless you get hard stun locked by like 4 deinos

Even then they have to be careful cuz of the AoE damage of a 1,250 tail swing

@willow cliff

[willow cliff]

That is true, however it usually works against stegos that have absolutely 0 idea what they’re doing

Unless you have a sub deino with you but then it just becomes complicated

since of its absurd speed, a very unneeded buff

[unkempt sierra]

They should do this nerf the tail swing damage to like 400 and mega buff the overall health to the point where they are tanks but the long the fight drags on the better it becomes for the stego, and if bleed is too strong just nerf the bleed

@willow cliff

[dusky surge]

NERF TO 400

WHAT

Sorry

[unkempt sierra]

Cuz right now none of the land carnivores fear stegs

[dusky surge]

I may have just misunderstood but 400 damage

Is that like, a joke or

[willow cliff]

Uhhh

[dusky surge]

Are you actually for real

Did you mistype maybe

[willow cliff]

the small tier hunter and the 500 kilogram raptor aren’t really fit for hunting the 6 ton tank so do they really need to fight stego? Omni can still kill a stego in a group soo

[unkempt sierra]

@dusky surge steg would have to get an absurd amount of health to compensate

[dusky surge]

that would require it to be MUCH heavier

[willow cliff]

sauropod weight

[dusky surge]

Its current health (and weight) is 6000, what is your proposed buffed health

Without making it grossly oversized

[unkempt sierra]

Increase health pool will help it last even more than it is now

[dusky surge]

Okay, but what to?

If we're nerfing the damage to 400, what does it get in return

For the sake of understanding here

[willow cliff]

I always liked the idea of stego doing a gargantuan amount of damage but is also extremely vulnerable to places such as the head, always striked me as the glass cannon of the apexes, they just need to make stegos head a little more vulnerable but yeah

[dusky surge]

Given its current health is 6000

[willow cliff]

Stego doesn’t even need a nerf it just needs competition

[unkempt sierra]

That will require testing I’m not sure on the exact numbers but it needs to be tuned to a ration where everything is terrified by a steg, and the steg can’t just 1v100 the server @dusky surge

[dusky surge]

Alright, let me put something into perspective here

[unkempt sierra]

Everything isn’t terrified*

[dusky surge]

By nerfing stego's damage to 400, it is genuinely going to be essentially useless against

• Rexes
• Coordinated omni packs
• Gigas
• Trikes probably
• Acros
• Coordinated allo packs (hell, even a duo might be able to take one)

The thagomizer's whole thing is that you avoid it because being hit by it is quite literally moving death

[willow cliff]

400 damage just sets it as a walking bag of meat

[dusky surge]

Nerfing the thagomizer to not even kill an omni not only makes zero sense, it makes the animal pathetic

It will literally run out of stam before it can kill a rex with 400 damage

Because the swing costs 5% stamina

And a rex has over 8k health

[willow cliff]

not that far fetched for the 6 ton apex herbivore to kill the not even 500 kg small tier animal

[unkempt sierra]

@dusky surge this is without Rex in its current state

This is just purely for the balance of the current emvrima roster

[dusky surge]

Also it's just... Not fun to grow all of that way to then just basically have your MASSIVE SPIKED TAIL be essentially coated in pillows and sunshine for a more comfortable hit

[unkempt sierra]

@dusky surge we’ll full grown Utah has 450 hp, Carno has 2000, not sure on teno or pachy but you have to consider the amount of hits the stego needs to kill these animals and how many hits they need to land in order to kill the stego

[dusky surge]

Okay, deino does 500 damage per bite. Deino's bite comes out faster, and costs no stam, and it can move while doing it. Deino also has more health and takes less damage to the head. This proposed change makes stego quite literally useless

Hell, omni has 450HP, this means omnis can charge stegos careleslly and be let off alive, given they get hit anywhere but the head, the complete opposite of how stego's primarily defence is supposed to go

[dusky surge]

Omni is 450, carno is 1800, pachy is 500, teno is 1600

Weight always = health

A stego SHOULD NOT need any more than one hit to dispatch an attacking omni

[unkempt sierra]

Right, so if the steg lands 1 body shot it’s gonna deal 400, more of it’s a head shot

[dusky surge]

Which is horrible

[unkempt sierra]

But granted

[dusky surge]

Means stego can't even properly dissuade omnis from bumrushing it

[unkempt sierra]

The other Dino’s will have to land more hits than before

[dusky surge]

There is absolutely no reward in growing a stego

You get a lumbering giant which can't chase anything, can't kill anything that enters its area, and is more akin to a large-scale pillow fight

[unkempt sierra]

I mean, it’s either that or nerf it’s health pool down

[dusky surge]

In EVRIMA, whoever has the highest speed determines the pace of the battle

Stego should not be at such a massive disadvantage while also never having control of the battle's pacing

[unkempt sierra]

We’ll right now as it is man, he has no disadvantages

[dusky surge]

He has more than deino

Deino is infinitely superior as an animal

Its only weakness is that if it's a fool and rushes a stego, or runs onto land miles away from water, it dies, which is entirely a player-based weakness for punishing bad decision making

[unkempt sierra]

Idk 2.1 ton steg can chase full grown carnos and 1 shot raptors

[dusky surge]

And a 2.1 deino can also do that, but it doesnt need to stand still to attack you

[unkempt sierra]

Ya it definitely needs to be nerfed

But as it stands right now steg and deino and Carno are like the only thing people play

[dusky surge]

And pachy, because it's stronger than all of those animals lol

[unkempt sierra]

I don’t see that many, pachys but I’m always NW and center

[dusky surge]

People often don't play pachy because they dismiss it as a small, squishier animal and dislike its low damage output. A good pachy, however, realises that these are merely surface level problems that can be entirely avoided

[unkempt sierra]

Leg break op

[dusky surge]

Not even

The leg fracture is hardly the worst or strongest thing about pachy

[unkempt sierra]

Really when ever a Carno gets his leg broken I just run over and kill him as stego

[dusky surge]

Not while it can stun animals almost 4x its size

[tall bronze]

Tenonto:

[dusky surge]

Yep

[unkempt sierra]

Lmao

[dusky surge]

Pachy vs tenonto is by far the worst matchup in the game

And it concretely proves how powerful pachy really is

Even carno can't kill tenos as easily as a pachy

Stegos, deinos and carnos are all worse at killing tenos than the pachy, which just makes it mince meat

[keen plover]

If Omni can tank a hit from a stego, it wins that matchup. As simple as that

[dusky surge]

True lol

[tall bronze]

Such a concept brings me disgruntleness

[unkempt sierra]

@dusky surge back to stegos tho, if you can’t nerf the damage and absurdly buff the hp what do you do to stop stegos from killing anything and everything that moves?

[dusky surge]

Keep pouncing till you get hit, then retreat and let your friends continue. If it's weak, come back to help finish it off

[keen plover]

Imagine being rushed by a pack. You get hit, but then all you have to do is just heal. Get the healing build and you win

[dusky surge]

Walk away from them

Unimaginable concept but the fact that people run headfirst into them is partially the reason their killcount is so high

[unkempt sierra]

Idk about that

[keen plover]

Exactly. Way too easy

If full adult stego does 400 damage, then what does sub adult do 💀

[dusky surge]

In fact I'd argue people sprinting into stego headfirst accounts for 90% of their total kills

[dusky surge]

idk like 12 i guess you're meant to be food anyway

[tall bronze]

[unkempt sierra]

And unstopped juggernaut that can’t be contested by any of the land carnivores? @dusky surge I don’t think that’s what it should be

[keen plover]

Adult Carno walking up to you and just biting your head.

[dusky surge]

You can't really make anything contest it besides omni, and omni already does it decently well (if they aren't, y'know, dumb)

[keen plover]

Stego can 100% be contested. The map is the biggest issue with the matchup though

[dusky surge]

True as, Gateway's non-hilly plains without a tree every 2 meters will be a godsend

[unkempt sierra]

@keen plover it takes 31 head shots for a Carno to kill a steg

[tall bronze]

A Carno isn't meant to be hunting Stegos in the first place 😮

[unkempt sierra]

Just 2 body shots for steg @keen plover

[keen plover]

Yeah. Omnis might even be called a bit too unfair lol

[unkempt sierra]

Do you not see the issue

[tall bronze]

Carno is supposed to be a small game hunter

[keen plover]

2 body hits are fair

[dusky surge]

I do not see the issue in the small game hunter struggling to kill the apex

[keen plover]

31 bites is incorrect

[stark knoll]

It takes 17, and carno has 0 reason to be tackling a stego

[keen plover]

^

(Although Carno should have a 200n bite)

[dusky surge]

yea true

bring that back idk why it was nerfed lol

[stark knoll]

There is no issue, that's not carno's intended gameplay or prey

[unkempt sierra]

Even so you can’t make 2 mistakes as a Carno but steg can make numerous mistakes and be just fine

[stark knoll]

Good

[dusky surge]

yea because one's a goddamn 5 hour grown apex and the other's a small game hunter that takes less than half that time

[tall bronze]

Carno can just run the other way if it sees a Stego 😮

It's like the only non-flying creature that can choose it's fights

[dusky surge]

Carno literally can press shift + W and it immediately survives the matchup

[unkempt sierra]

@stark knoll so it’s it ok if stegs can be hyper aggressive and kill any and all animals in the roster for a herbivore I don’t think that’s what it’s gameplay should be

[dusky surge]

Faster animal = better at picking fights. It's why omni and carno are so good

"for a herbivore"

is this a herbivore = food argument rn

[stark knoll]

Turn the other direction and hold W, stego is very very slow. Not every herbivore is meant to be eaten by everything

[dusky surge]

stegos also CAN'T be hyper aggressive, because again, they're mega slow and literally EVERYTHING on the roster can easily escape it

[unkempt sierra]

“Intended gameplay could also be said the same @dusky surge

[keen plover]

While I would personally love Carno trios to have a better chance (less bites on the head of stego required), Carno should be dying in 1-2 hits

[dusky surge]

Stego is INTENDED to be a massive damage dealing monster

That's its whole thing

[unkempt sierra]

But not a hunter of carnivores

[keen plover]

I think there’s a possible chance of killing a Stego in the open as a trio. I’ve been close many times, but they usually end up hugging a rock or tree

Again, map issue

[tall bronze]

The only carnivores it can hunt are the ones that decide not to turn around and go the other way 🤷

[unkempt sierra]

@keen plover yup

[keen plover]

Even if you made Stego weaker, they will still be untouchable with a bad map

[unkempt sierra]

Then they get 1-2 shot @tall bronze

[dusky surge]

Let's take a look at how the roadmap describes stego

"This lumbering giant enjoys taking things nice and easy. It uses the threat of it's massive size and impressive weaponry to ward off most would be predators. Given its slow speed, it leans harder into fight than flight. Beware the tail! A well-aimed swing can be lethal. Although a fairly consistent sight on the plains, they can sometimes be found foraging on the outskirts of the jungle as well."

uses massive size and impressive weaponry to ward off most would-be predators
leans harder into fight than flight
beware of the tail! a well aimed swing can be lethal

The tail is meant to be the whole "stay the hell away from me" tool. It needs to pack a punch to make people respect that

[tall bronze]

Then that's their fault for not running away from the massive 6T cow 🤷

[dusky surge]

Exactly lol

[stark knoll]

It's pretty easy to do so

[keen plover]

I’m interested to see how stego performs on Gateway

With migration

[unkempt sierra]

Idk when I play steg it’s literally god mode unless there are other stegs

[keen plover]

I do agree that there are too many adult Stegos. Like it’s easy to maintain massive amounts of them. They should limit diet food spawns. Well a lot less than now

[unkempt sierra]

I don’t think it should be in the state that it’s in where I can kill anything and not be threatened by any of the carnivores

[dusky surge]

It's bizarre how stego will be villainised, whereas deino has the following

A: An attack just like a stego one-tap, except you can't see and hear it before it does it
B: Unlike stego, a carno gets zero second chances once grabbed, it's essentially dead
C: You can't shift + W away from it if you both can't see it and HAVE to go to water for a drink

Is it because it's a carnivore that this is okay, while stego's much fairer rules of "don't get near me and you don't die" is despised

[keen plover]

I do agree it can suck. It is TOO early for stego. But the balance idea you have given would make adult stegos free food. Not to mention their sub adults

[unkempt sierra]

I mean if you were to switch the stats for a stego and a Carno I think a lot of people would agree with out a doubt that it would be too op

[dusky surge]

wdym "switch the stats"

[keen plover]

Bro

[unkempt sierra]

Everything

[dusky surge]

stego running at 55km/hr? Sounds funny

[unkempt sierra]

Yup

[keen plover]

??

[unkempt sierra]

But only 250 bite or 230?

[dusky surge]

Anyway... Who exactly is the most OP?

[unkempt sierra]

Stegosaurus

[tall bronze]

Technically Ptera is the most overpowered creature 🤓

[dusky surge]

Yea, I wonder why a herbivore running at 55km/hr would be considered OP

[hollow topaz]

Why is walking away such a wild concept to people lmao

[unkempt sierra]

True

[tall bronze]

Deathmatch mindset

[dusky surge]

PREY ANIMAL PREY ANIMAL PREY ANIMAL PREY ANIMAL

[unkempt sierra]

I meant Carno @dusky surge

[dusky surge]

It'd be a pathetic hunter but a great scavenger, I'll give you that much

[tall bronze]

Though I gotta admit, I can't entirely blame the deathmatch mindset since outside of combat, there's uh.....not much else to do.

In the future though, hopefully that changes. Like nesting being ya know worth doing and things like migrations, acquiring perks, maintaining elder, etc.

[dusky surge]

Wouldn't be able to hunt a single animal under the sun because of that pathetic speed

[keen plover]

Walking away from a portion of the server population sucks, since the map screws with your ability to hunt them. If stego is actually around plains a lot more, have limited diet spawns - then you’ll see a lot more Carno players dropping them and omnis

[dusky surge]

But hey, it could def steal corpses and scavenge

[unkempt sierra]

@dusky surge and it would still be very strong

[keen plover]

Try fighting an Omni pack on completely open ground. Tell me who wins that matchup?

[dusky surge]

Well actually, probably not

I doubt it'd even get to full grown frequently

Its need for food and inability to hunt would more than likely kill it

[unkempt sierra]

Idk 1250 damage bite would be insane

[dusky surge]

Except a bite isn't at all like a tailswing

So comparing them is ridiculous

[unkempt sierra]

We’ll ya you have the AoE but still

If it lands it’s a death sentence

[dusky surge]

Tailswing has windup, cooldown and stam cost, and immobilises the user

Bite is bite, can be used while running, forward facing, no stam cost and far less windup and cooldown

Of COURSE it'd be stronger. That's why it's on the tail, not on the mouth

[unkempt sierra]

And how would you balance it ?

At that point

[dusky surge]

The "carno/stego" stat swap argument is bizarre at best and completely incomprehensible at worst

[unkempt sierra]

But it does have a good point tho, no?

[dusky surge]

Balance the hypothetical "stego but a carnivore and stronger"? I wouldn't add it

[keen plover]

I’m still a bit lost on it

[dusky surge]

no, it has a mindnumbing point i still fail to understand

[keen plover]

Wouldn’t it just be what we have now, but in different skins?

[dusky surge]

One's a carnivore, I guess?

But like... Stego wouldn't benefit from being a carnivore

[keen plover]

Lmao

[dusky surge]

It'd probably be worse off

[unkempt sierra]

An unstoppable juggernaut ravaging everything in its path, and almost impossible to kill unless you have overwhelming force

That’s the point

[dusky surge]

If we were to ACCURATELY swap carno and stego's stats, like you said, carno would have a WHOPPING bite force of

50

Almost a quarter of its current damage

[unkempt sierra]

Nah 50 bite

[dusky surge]

Because stego's bite force is 50.

[unkempt sierra]

We’ll ok

Give it 50 bite and 1259 tail slam

[dusky surge]

Alright

[unkempt sierra]

1250

[dusky surge]

Horrible carnivore, complete trash, it'll starve

That would not be overpowered, it'd be pathetic

It'd be a glorified scavenger

People would run away from it, sure, but not a soul would care about it

Certainly not the stego, who has been blessed with a 55km/hr runspeed and can easily escape this new "super predator"

[unkempt sierra]

We’ll if it starves

Lmaoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

There is a lot of food to scavenge

[dusky surge]

To feed a 6000kg animal that can't catch anything on its own? Yea, not so likely

[unkempt sierra]

The only thing I see being an issue is rotten food @dusky surge

[dusky surge]

This hypothetical carno is complete trash lol

You actually made stego the stronger of the two by swapping their stats

[unkempt sierra]

We’ll Carno is the best land carnivore right now

As it is

[dusky surge]

175 bite force, 55km/hr run speed, the ability to graze to get around the hunger drain it inherited from carno? Hell yea, stego is the best now

[unkempt sierra]

But it would not be able to kill deinos

Or Carno

[dusky surge]

Nothing would

Maybe our megacarno could, but what kind of idiot would run headfirst and be a free meal for this megacarno?

Just leave it to starve, then collect the food from its corpse

[unkempt sierra]

What if you are hungry

[dusky surge]

I'd find food literally anywhere else?

Why would I compete with the 6000kg megacarno

[unkempt sierra]

Same could be said for the mega Carno

[dusky surge]

It can't hunt. I can (because I'm not a terrible animal with no speed)

The megacarno is instant F-Tier tbh

[unkempt sierra]

You can kill deinos

[dusky surge]

If they run at the megacarno, yes. If they value their life and avoid it? No way lol

The hypothetical megacarno is literally just an animal that survives entirely off the incompetence of other players

Which is really funny, because that's EXACTLY how stego gets its kills atm (almost like this hypothetical is ridiculous)

[hollow topaz]

It’s just amusing how all these arguments are literally the same ones that we current have for our roster, except it’s suddenly trying to be forced as “okay” since it’s a carnivore instead.

[unkempt sierra]

@dusky surge at least it would do what a carnivore does and not what a herbivore does

[dusky surge]

Carnivore killing things = good!
Herbivore that kills things which made clear errors and ran straight into it = basically glorified predator, how do we avoid that >:(

[dusky surge]

No it wouldn't. It can't hunt, it's entirely dependent on food coming to it

[hollow topaz]

An herbivore would 100% defend itself if it was getting mauled to death. Most carnivores don’t actually succeed in hunts in the wild.

[dusky surge]

It's a glorified herbivore, except its WAY harder to get food

Nothing about stego behaves like a carnivore

You get close, you die, that's herbivore things

[unkempt sierra]

@hollow topaz but stegs don’t use it for defense they use their damage and health pool for offense

[tall bronze]

So then run the other way

[hollow topaz]

How? Again, walk away.

They’re literally fat.

[unkempt sierra]

It, shouldn’t be an unstoppable juggernaut

[hollow topaz]

If you don’t see a 4 ton jiggling hunk of flesh charging at you with it’s footsteps pounding into the heavens, that’s literally on you

Sorry 6 tons

[dusky surge]

WTF, this animal has a giant front facing weapon that can one tap a ton of animals, a massive health pool to shrug off attacks, charges everything and is super aggressive? They should remove this!

(oh wait, they are doing that)

[tall bronze]

Omni packs can kill it
Deinos who are smart can kill it
Everything can run away from it

I despise Stego existing right now, but I see no reason to nerf it 😮

[unkempt sierra]

@dusky surge rhinos can die to lions and crocs

[dusky surge]

Stego can die to omnis and deinos

[hollow topaz]

I was practicing deino vs steg fights the other day.. if you have 2 deinos it’s INSANELY easy.

[dusky surge]

Art imitates reality

[unkempt sierra]

100 hours on steg never died to a pack of omnis @dusky surge

[dusky surge]

yea it takes a skilled pack and usually people can't be bothered when AI is more abundant and easier lol

(diet issue)

[tall bronze]

Growth being so easy results in many adult players that should not be adult

[hollow topaz]

I could say I’ve never been cannied either, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

[tall bronze]

Deino prolly being the worst (or best?) example

8 ton behemoth of an animal
Can grow purely off of AI

[unkempt sierra]

@dusky surge the only time I’ve died was vs other stegs or a massive pack of deinos

[dusky surge]

its literally so bizarre to me how anyone who fights stego feels an intense magnetic force pulling them into the tail range and dies

[unkempt sierra]

Never died to a Carno on a stegosaurus or an Omni @dusky surge

[hollow topaz]

Almost like.. one of those things isn’t meant to hunt it

[dusky surge]

carnos shouldn't be killing stegos, so thats good to hear

[tall bronze]

Just because you haven't doesn't mean it never ever happens 😮

[hollow topaz]

And the other one is basically extinct right now

[dusky surge]

(because why play omni or teno when every other animal is so much more powerful)

[unkempt sierra]

Ok why have steg in the first place, what does it do for the game?

[dusky surge]

Stops deino from being a menace, essentially

[hollow topaz]

That’s the big question isn’t it lol

[dusky surge]

The greatest service it can provide atm

[unkempt sierra]

Lmaoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo omg I love you guys

[dusky surge]

As long as deino exists, stego has to as well

[hollow topaz]

But you could also literally ask that of Hyspi, Dryo, or any other “useless” animal

What is the point?

[unkempt sierra]

@hollow topaz they are useless

[hollow topaz]

Yeah, but they’re still here.

[dusky surge]

They're incomplete

Not useless

[hollow topaz]

Just because an animal doesn’t have it’s place doesn’t mean it needs kicked out. You suggesting we lower our already minimal roster?

[dusky surge]

Not constantly fighting doesn't make it worthless

[unkempt sierra]

Like 10/100 play hypsi

[dusky surge]

Yea, because again, incomplete animal

IDK how else I can express this except the animal isn't done and needs more work to actually have its proper niche and playstyle

Same with dryo

[hollow topaz]

I only brought them up because of the “what do they do for the game” thing. Which is.. nothing.

[thin mantle]

Depends on the metric used

[unkempt sierra]

I mean there no point in playing the smaller ones even raptor, Carno just stomps on them and the other herbivores can also stomp them,

[dusky surge]

Also stego still has the purpose of "getting deino to stay the hell in its lane" so I will accept it as long as it does that

[hollow topaz]

I just think it’s a dumb argument to say Stego should be discluded because it’s “pointless” or whatever they were trying to say.

[thin mantle]

Theyre the basal implementation of animals that will one day become much more substantive, and their current status isn’t problematic outside of their own playability

[dusky surge]

Bold take but that's more indicative of U6's flawed balance than the game as a whole

[unkempt sierra]

We’ll if nothing keeps steg in check, and Carno and deino can run around unhindered

How is the game gonna be fun and fair

[hollow topaz]

…isn’t it the other way around?

[thin mantle]

Well….stego doesn’t really need to be kept in check

It’s one of the least problematic animals we have

[dusky surge]

Stego is problematic to PvP junkies

If you constantly need to fight any and everything that enters your line of sight, stego will be problematic

[thin mantle]

Survival game moment

[dusky surge]

If you're happy with leaving something to its own devices for the sake of your own life, stego is one of the least threatening animals in the game

[hollow topaz]

I don’t see how getting Stego “in check” would help the carno/deino problem, when I’m pretty sure most herbi mains probably just switched to Stego FOR THE REASON that carno/deino are a problem.

[dusky surge]

You know how many times I've died to stego that wasn't directly caused by me joining in or starting a fight? None

I've died absolutely zero times to stegos unless I'm the aggressor

[thin mantle]

I have once…I was afk in a bush

So it’s entirely irrelevant

[dusky surge]

Just like carno, the perfect ambush predator

[thin mantle]

Where Carno belongs…hidden…in the open

[unkempt sierra]

I would be fine with “you can’t kill it and it can’t kill you” but the joy of getting a kill on something hard should be encouraged, it shouldn’t be an impossibility like it is now @dusky surge

[thin mantle]

Or something…

[thin mantle]

But that’s exactly how it is now

Stego killing is possible

[hollow topaz]

It’s not impossible lmao

[dusky surge]

it isnt an impossibility, and i feel the "joy of getting the kill on something hard" should also apply to deino to the extent you're putting it

[unkempt sierra]

Idk I’ve not died once to omnis or carnos

[dusky surge]

Deino killing is infinitely harder than stego killing

[thin mantle]

And in deinos case, that literally IS impossible

You cannot kill a deino that is trying to live

[unkempt sierra]

@thin mantle true nerf deino

[dusky surge]

You also seem to have no problem with ptera, a much harder to kill animal

[hollow topaz]

Lmao

[unkempt sierra]

@dusky surge I do and don’t

[thin mantle]

I less so think that it needs nerfs and moreso think it’s just fundamentally unhealthy for the game till certain environmental systems are implemented

[unkempt sierra]

@dusky surge thing is with Petra is that I can be killed and there is combat associated with it

[thin mantle]

Like deino, despite rarely making kills, is still too good at ambushing

[dusky surge]

You can't be killed, and combat as ptera is just asking for your invincibility to be revoked

[unkempt sierra]

There is no combat vs stegosaurus @dusky surge you make 1 mistake the server lags 1 time you die

[dusky surge]

(and is in my honest opinion, a horrible way to play ptera)

[dusky surge]

There is no combat against pteranodon, you don't even get the opportunity to touch it in the first place, unless it decides it to be so

[thin mantle]

Well, yeah the lag part applies to all fights on Omni so that’s just a non factor….and I feel like the simple solution is to bait better and time your pounces with your pack

Also dismounting forward from the stego on flat ground guarantees your safety

[unkempt sierra]

Vs the other match ups there is combat

Vs pteranodon

[hollow topaz]

Just play deino if you want to fight stegos. I guarantee you that the reason no one is killing stegos right now is because everyone grows too easily so they have no real skill in the animal other than “eat food in corner and grow big”

[thin mantle]

Anything lacking a jump can’t do anything to it

[unkempt sierra]

Trees @thin mantle

Trees op against ptera

[dusky surge]

I really like the fact that the animals that CAN pick its fights and CAN choose to be immortal (deino and ptera) are apparently not a problem compared to the animal that CANNOT pick its fights and has no option but to engage in whatever wants to tussle (stego)

[dusky surge]

I mean... That's just a ptera issue for even fighting you in the first place lol

Why exactly is the ptera doing that

It's not out of self-defence, like a stego

It's entirely just doing it to do it, then suffering the consequences of not taking advantage of its plentiful survival strategies

[unkempt sierra]

Because if he makes a mistake you can capitalize on it hard @dusky surge

[thin mantle]

I can’t even describe to you how easy trees are to avoid….but even then that’s not really combating the ptera, that’s just hoping the ptera kills itself irrespective of your efforts

[dusky surge]

If he makes the mistake of choosing to fight, sure. Stego doesn't get to choose

[unkempt sierra]

You can’t capitalize on a mistake that the stegosaurus makes @thin mantle @dusky surge

[thin mantle]

Yes you can, they don’t attack faster than you can dismount, I and many other have done this quite a lot

[dusky surge]

The whole concept that because a ptera CHOSE to fight and died for it, that's somehow better than a stego not getting a choice, fighting out of necessity, and winning is absurd

[thin mantle]

Pack tactics are very effective against stego because of how directional their combat is

[dusky surge]

Not to mention their long animation times

[hollow topaz]

It’s super easy to bait a Stego and take advantage of the gap.

[dusky surge]

Bait a swing one way, get the pack to pounce the other

(capitalising on their mistakes)

[thin mantle]

Yeah and without an obstacle they’re just a free pounce, no bait necessary

Just pounce their face, they can’t reach

[unkempt sierra]

Idk @thin mantle I’ve killed so many raptors and again have not died to a group yet as a solo steg

[dusky surge]

and thats on the raptors for picking that fight lol

just because raptors CAN kill stegos doesn't mean it's easy, or even preferred

[unkempt sierra]

I mean it should be easy, but it should be a lot easier than it is now

[thin mantle]

Well that’s most likely because this is an engagement that requires at a very bare minimum, achieving the skill floor of the animal, and largely in part to U5 and because of how much Protagonist Syndrome seems to run rampant in the Omni player base, most players aren’t even close to that

[dusky surge]

lmao true

[thin mantle]

It shouldn’t, if it was any easier Omni would be godlike against everything else in the game bar Anky, stego among the entire completed roster is arguably the second best terrestrial counter to Omni, so if you cater any more to Omni in that matchup then Omni gets buffed far above a reasonable state

[dusky surge]

protag syndrome is near synonymous with omni mains

[thin mantle]

Unfortunately, hence the entirety of balance feedback for months now

[unkempt sierra]

I think Omni raptors should be a lot more threatening to a solo steg, and the steg should be scared, but the think is there not

[thin mantle]

“I can’t solo” is disturbingly common

[thin mantle]

Under no context aside from nesting should an animal of stegos size exceed a group size of 1….also stego is godawful in group defense scenarios

[unkempt sierra]

20 raptors are literally nothing to a steg @dusky surge @thin mantle

[tall bronze]

[thin mantle]

4-5 are enough if they’re good

[keen plover]

Bro… THE MAP. Why would a solo stego be scared when the map caters to them

[thin dragon]

[thin mantle]

Needing 20 is embarrassing

[dusky surge]

if a stego is afraid of a raptor, dear god, i dont even want to IMAGINE how trikes and other ceratopsians will feel about them

[thin mantle]

Hadrosaurs just fall over and die on sight

[keen plover]

If you die as a stego to any Omni pack on Spiro, it’s a you issue

[dusky surge]

oh yea

[thin dragon]

[dusky surge]

no way a para survives an omni pack if they scare stegos

[unkempt sierra]

@keen plover problem is I haven’t yet