balance-feedback-discussion

[golden coral]

Well, I'll have to pass, due to personal reasons.

[green onyx]

then you should be working on that lol

[neon willow]

To be fair, while I understand the original argument you made, now you're moving the goalposts. Instead of balance you're pointing at something that is clearly a bug. And there are many reasons they're moving to a new map-- partially because gateway existed in legacy and they want to add it to evrima, partially because they can switch game engines and run the map more efficiently, partially because they have a dedicated map designer with experience in creating open worlds and allocating resources to guide player choices and spread, and partially because sometimes it's easier to start from a clean slate than try to adapt an existing product.

[green onyx]

everything about a game is programming mess something up trying to change things or BALANCE THEM, then you get weird results and it breaks the game, so now they are starting clean as they did with legacy and now as they are with the new map but they dont know what they want its thats simple

[dawn falcon]

I multitask all the time so it’s fine

[green onyx]

yes thats what i was saying they are starting from scratch again as they already tried

[golden coral]

I'm starting to think you just use "programming" for everything in a game, no matter what it is.

[green onyx]

omg it is programming

of course

[dawn falcon]

Balancing?

[golden coral]

Level design? Sound design?

[green onyx]

if i program something wrong i get a problem if i keep doing it without fixing the initial problem then more problems happen and if i keep going i break things and if i lose track of my mistake and break too many things then i cant fix thousands of pages of code so its easier to start over

[golden coral]

But making a terrible map is not coding.

Or sounds for that matter.

[green onyx]

im sorry what

[neon willow]

I mean... Yes games medium is programming like a painting's medium is canvas and acrylic. But balance is to games as the vision in the artist's mind is to a painting. The goal is to get there, while the outcome is what you see on the canvas along the way. But like a painter makes adjustments and paints over parts that don't quite match the vision, programmers modify the code to fix parts of the game that don't match the balance

[golden coral]

Or balance decisions, such as how a playable should behave, it's intended niche, or even what mechanics it should or should not have.

You just seem to think it's all coding/programming and that all issues spring from some form of broken or bad code, or questionable "logic" in the game.

[green onyx]

of course its code, they tried to make a map with code and the tech that couldnt support the huge concept, this is why gateway has supposedly smaller assest count

[dawn falcon]

I-

No. That’s not right at all.
You don’t code a map. You place down assets and design a giant sandbox until it becomes a good map.. that’s the whole point of a “level designer”.

Is this flamebait?

I’m going insane

[golden coral]

@stray venture Let's not get back to a useless carno charge. Carno should not be ambushing, its an open plains critter. Pursuit works better, and now charge can at least be used against more than afk targets. Pachy CC is an issue, that's where it's problems are at. Bucking needs to work on sprint style drain, not the chunks, that'll help the omnis out.

[golden coral]

Are you.. aware of how yu can make a map? Are you aware of all the issues with a map that has nothing to do with coding? Are you... you got to be trolling by now, you got to.

[green onyx]

omg im going insane, code is absolutely part of a map design this is why maps break and rocks arent solid and you cant walk through them, they have no collision box, wtf

[golden coral]

I told you, it's also about the design, layout, style of the map. Not just performance. It's not just about the performance, but what kind of assets they want, like the new cycads.

You seem to think everything is just code, when it's not.

[green onyx]

yes im aware i am a game dev and im using unreal 5

[golden coral]

You need to separate between the performance, vs the layout of a map. The difference between balance decisions vs the performance of the mechanic in game. And so on.

[green onyx]

no i made this for my game yet i have no idea how games are made

[dawn falcon]

I hope to god you’re getting “program” mapping confused with “map design”. It’s surprising that even a game developer will call map design a form of programming even though you can find a hell of a lot of companies separating the two..

[dawn falcon]

Good for you. Congratulations. It looks nice.

[green onyx]

map design is absolutely reliant on programming and correct code

[golden coral]

Honestly, as cool as that looks, no it doesn't mean you know how games are made. That's a model, that's all that is, from what I can see at least.

[dawn falcon]

Then there’s no point in calling someone a map designer lmao
At that point they would be a programmer but, Jaces a map designer…

[golden coral]

Design does not relate to that. You keep looking at performance vs actual design/layout. Those are different things.

[green onyx]

there is a map designer just like there is a set designer in movies, doesnt mean their job works without a director or money from a producer

[dawn falcon]

I’m just going to believe game companies when they separate the two. Programming is 100% different from map design. I’m sure there is some programming involved but that’s besides the point. Map design is its own thing.

[green onyx]

performance is something you get with good programming, like optimization which is like checking code and making sure its as efficient as possible, map deign is going to fail if your code doesnt work and you dont have limitations in place for your map, hence why designers and 3d artists are given design budgets for their polygon counts to limit bloating of memory and lag, even on map design

[golden coral]

@green onyxI could design a terrible map, and you implement it, and it works perfectly fine, because you're a good programmer. That does not make that map good, because my design is terrible. And it could go the other way around too, I could design a map that is great to play on, but there's all kinds of issues due to bad coding (such as rocks you can pass through). But those are still different things.

So performance, you're spot on. But performance is not the only thing that decides if for example a map is well designed and thus good to play on or not.

[green onyx]

the map is too big and too bloated with assests, thats why it doesnt work and performance is no good,

anyway i gotta go, i hope they fix the game and get it right.

[golden coral]

You know the new map is bigger right, at least in playable area. :p

[rustic pivot]

dog carno charge was made for ambushing

ask the devs carno was made to be an ambush predator, carno is the ambush pred, cerato is what you want carno to be right now, and bary is the bleeder

[somber sphinx]

Ah yes the tall, loud, small game hunter, plans hunter should be an ambusher. That sounds about right

[bright oasis]

Not this statement again

Dude it's a short burst pursuit small game hunter.

Erik you might as well just save a typed paragraph since it comes up every single day

[rustic pivot]

dog ask a dev next time they are in chat

[golden coral]

No it wasn't. Open plains, no hiding spot, small and agile critters that can sidestep you and avoid you easy due to charge being so bad. Does that make sense to you? Cerato is by no means a pursuit predator, its a corpse bully, a "this is mine and you cant change my mind" playable. And maybe an endurance/persistence hunter, but that's not the same as carno. Carno has not been stated to be ambush from what I know ,that all comes from some youtubers idea.

[rustic pivot]

carno was made to be an ambush pred

[golden coral]

Maybe I should.

[golden coral]

Then it was horribly designed for it.

[spiral patrol]

Bruh

[rustic pivot]

carno gets all its kills by ambushing

[golden coral]

So that makes little sense. If they wanted it to be a ambush hunter, then charge is a terrible mechanic for it.

[somber sphinx]

Ah yes the animal that hunts small, fast and agile prey needs to ambush

[golden coral]

Yes, with a useless charge, you kind of need to hope for an afk target if you want to use it. I guess that much checks out, but that does not mean it was made, or well designed for it. Saying "you need to get the jump on something to even make a kill" does not mean you're well designed to do so, and carno wasn't.

In any case, they've changed it, so we'll see how it goes.

[golden coral]

Yo? :D

[rustic pivot]

charge was not useless beforehand

[hybrid thunder]

thats literally what an ambush pred is, no?

[bright oasis]

No its not

[somber sphinx]

It was, it really was

[rustic pivot]

i get it, we want payables. but that doesn't mean we make carno a cerato and allo at the same time

[hybrid thunder]

that's wild

[somber sphinx]

Like I said, carno is a tall, loud, plains hunter and small game hunter that needs to ambush, it dosent make sense

[somber sphinx]

Allo is an ambusher, cera we don’t know

[rustic pivot]

im sorry but you guys just need to get better, carno did just fine last update, sure utahs were a challenge but maybe challenges are good sometimes you know?

the game can't be easy bro this ain't pot

[somber sphinx]

Omni as able to solo carno last update, it was not fine

[rustic pivot]

bro.....

you want 50 percent carno to solo a damn utah?

[bright oasis]

Skilled™️ utah main response incoming I can sense it

[somber sphinx]

How much does a 50% carno weight?

If it’s bigger, it should def have the advantage

[rustic pivot]

i'm a carno main and I still want it nerfed

[obtuse ocean]

What utahs challenge ? it can prob run from 90% of the rooster, carno is something that you should worry about. Not challenge it.

[rustic pivot]

utahs challenge is carno, teno, stego, catching the smaller stuff

carno is a small game hunter as all of you are saying.. so why should we not challenge it

[hybrid thunder]

ah yeh carnotaurus, the most powerful mf in the roster

[rustic pivot]

I guess a pack of 7 utahs must run for the jungle when they see a single 80 percent carno

[golden coral]

Vs anything that had any sense of awareness and wasn't ganged up on by packs of carnos, it was.

[somber sphinx]

If you want to hunt a carno as Omni then be in a pack like it’s supposed to

[hybrid thunder]

bet all the tenos are shivering in their timbers

[golden coral]

I mean, a 50% carno would be 900 kg or so, its not unreasonable that it can fight a solo omni. After all, omni can solo other omnis quite well, why shouldnt a larger critter be able to do it?

[somber sphinx]

That’s def skill issue if 7 Omnis loose to a 80% carno (but subs are pretty busted)

[obtuse ocean]

Its a challenge if you choose to, carno is prob in the future more or less some of the few you need to worry about.

[hybrid thunder]

cerato and allo, and pretty much any other carnivore would like to speak to u

[stray venture]

Its also a skill issue if you lost to a single utah as a carno last update. While bleed was a op if you lost to one utah then that was a skill issue.

[obtuse ocean]

Yea if your dumb and dont pay attention, sure

[rustic pivot]

in the future when we actually have playables carno will be a pest yall know that right? if a carno is in your sight you should not have to be worried. its when a carno sees you first and rams you that you get scared

[somber sphinx]

Bucking was pretty useless and add with the fact that carnos blood pool was a joke so unless you had a tree or stone you would most likely be doomed

[golden coral]

Let me clarify. Ambush as I use it = deino. Sit and wait predator, then attack and kill. Pursuit predator = carno. You chase the target down over very short distance (due to low stam or other limit) and attempt to get it before it gets away. Persistence/endurance hunter = omni in a sense. Basically, you follow the target over long periods of time until it is exhausted and can't fight back, then you kill it.

[obtuse ocean]

You mean small dinos ? i doubt carno gonnna be ramming allo

[rustic pivot]

exactly

just because carno can't ram a stego doesn't mean we have to buff it to fight a stego

[golden coral]

Sure, you could fight one, but the amount of effort on either side was, not exactly in the carnos favour. Now, with improved bucking, and a useful charge, it should work out a lot better.

[golden coral]

Yeah no. If you see a carno, you should be worried ,if you're the small game it's meant to hunt. That's kind of the thing with it. It sees you, it runs you down.

[stray venture]

So carno is just allo but worse.

[hybrid thunder]

literally the same concept, the Same concept. Allo is confirmed to be an ambush predator, and carno also falls into this

[golden coral]

That makes no sense. Allo grapples stuff, holds it down and kills it. Not sure how that translates to cheetah style "I will run you down" when it comes to hunting smaller game.

[rustic pivot]

not really, last update you were able to move out the way, now its impossible to escape ruining the idea of an ambush pred. do yall want this game to be carno rules over all sim?

[golden coral]

Literally not. If allo plays more like deino, it would not play like carno. Deino and carno do not play similarly, not should they at that.

[golden coral]

That's because of the hitbox right now. Last update you had to try to get hit by the charge. If you had any sense of surroundings and the carno, it would never hit you with a charge.

[hybrid thunder]

how th is deino like allo. there are literally modern LAND animals that use the same tactic

[rustic pivot]

how is carno running you down if it has horrible stam??? because it doesn't run you down it ambushes you and forces you to fight as a pachy would

[golden coral]

You're the one that said that allo is confirmed to be an ambush predator (not sure, are we just going on concept or actual statements?), and if it is, then it would be closer to deino than carno in how it plays.

[rustic pivot]

exactly, im saying it should be like last update

[golden coral]

Because it is faster and can now keep up with you. Again, like a cheetah. You have a limited amount of time to get the target.

[golden coral]

So you want it to go back to being useless. So noted.

[rustic pivot]

it's not like the concept and what the devs say are accurate anyway

[hybrid thunder]

oh so a lion or leopard arent ambush predators?

[golden coral]

Not according to how I use the terms no. I am aware that there are differences in how this is seen. But to me, croc, snake, praying mantis, are ambushers. Basically, sit and wait predators. Something carno was not very well designed for. Hence why I think the current design is better, more cheetah style, as in, sneak up on target, and run it down. Don't just sit and wait and then "jump" it.

[somber sphinx]

What has lions and leopards to do with that

[rustic pivot]

go watch carno gameplay from last update, it had trouble in brawls because it should not be brawling. I am fine with it brawling utahs but that should be challenging because the ideal thing to do is to ambush with the charge

[hybrid thunder]

uuuhhh idk, maybe cuz they actually ambush their prey

[golden coral]

See thats the thing. Ambush carno didnt work out well, and the charge was terribly designed for it. Also it shouldnt struggle with "brawling" an omni, omni is its prey.

[somber sphinx]

Well yeah and cheetahs goes for a more pursuit option, like carno should also and is doing

[rustic pivot]

sure that works, but the charge was made so you could ram them and then finish them off, or get a headstart in the upcoming fight

[golden coral]

@somber sphinxI guess I'll go get the wikia articles again xD

[somber sphinx]

Also how is an animal that’s tall, loud, small game hunter AND plains hunter be an ambusher?! It doesn’t make any sense

[somber sphinx]

Lol

[golden coral]

It was, and it wasn't well designed for that purpose, is what I'm trying to say. Did it work, sure, did it work well, no. Hence why the new changes are good, it also means carno can now be in the open and not rely on having to "hide" and find an unaware target (which means it can be in proper plains and all).

You can still ram and finish off, that's how you should do it. Hence why hitbox needs fixing, and damage/CC needs a work as well.

[rustic pivot]

you want omni to be defenseless?

[hybrid thunder]

the whole pursuit concept is pretty synonymous to the ambush concept. while yes, deino ambushes in a different way, but anything that is cat like etc also falls into the ambushing category

[golden coral]

It's more so that you use the ram as you chase targets, not from them standing still and being unaware of you.

[golden coral]

I know, which is why I did clarify earlier.

[rustic pivot]

there are so many clips by so many different people proving carno was fine

[golden coral]

Not at all, I think it should be running away however.

[somber sphinx]

It isn’t lol, if you want to stay away then run towards the jungle if you see a carno or use a pack to kill one

[golden coral]

Again, hitbox needs work so it can do so more reliably and not get hit from a mile away.

[rustic pivot]

them standing still and not being aware is exactly when to use it 💀

[somber sphinx]

Again, plains hunter and ambusher does not fit together

[rustic pivot]

then whats the point of playing omni? omni fights things bigger than carno

[stray venture]

Grapple serves a similar role to ram. Its a tool used to slow down prey so you can apply damage. Allo will most likely have bad stam but good speed much like carno. Allo can do the whole ambush and chase prey for a short while thing like carno. Then trot its prey down. Not to mention the new ram speed makes carno more of a brawler if anything. So what you guys have created and want to keep is a brawler that is also mobile that also stomps the only other herbi around its size (teno) because it can brawl better than it due to charge being able to knock it over. Don't say im just being dramatic either, it happens all the time. Why do you think the carno population is so large? Tbh it plays like a brawler with good speed instead of a fragile for its size small game hunter.

[somber sphinx]

In a pack yes

[golden coral]

Which it wasn't good at, because it required distance, and made noise, and is used by a large and visible predator. Could you do it, sure, did you have to, yes because only an "afk" target was hittable. Was this good, no not according to me at least.

[rustic pivot]

it does though, i did it today. and every other time I play carno

[golden coral]

Right now, omni has no good targets. This is an issue with the roster.

[rustic pivot]

teno, and stego which it was made for. and carno to bro

[somber sphinx]

Carno is tall, it’s loud and it hunt small, agile and fast targets. The last thing it would do is ambush

[golden coral]

We have a "punch up" predator in a roster of one thing that is meant to hunt it, one thing that is meant to counter it, one thing that is the second worst apex to ever go for, one thing that is untouchable in water, and almost as untouchable on land. It's not an ideal roster for the omni at all.

[stray venture]

Just forget hills in the plains the bushes and the treeline to hide around and in.

[golden coral]

No, carno is it's hunter, not something it should hunt. Stego is also a terrible choice and should not be hunted by omni at all really.

Omni would be better off vs trike, or allo.

[somber sphinx]

Well yeah but still, having something that’s meant to hunt things much smaller than it that are really agile and on top of that being extremely loud it would not ambush

[rustic pivot]

so you think the prey should not fight back, meaning you want stego to sit down and die when a utah shows up

[rustic pivot]

yes but if something is trying to kill you, and you have the power to fight back. then why not fight back, no matter if its ideal for it or not, which it is ideal for utah because carno is weak to bleed

[golden coral]

I don't imagine that grapple and ram will work the same. Especially since I doubt the two of them will hunt the same targets anyway. And I doubt allo will trot targets down, there's nothing indicating that from what I know. Allo might have some kind of ambush ability, if we go by concept, but it could also just mean allo has a really fast run and galli has a bad start run time.

And I did say carno CC and damage needs looked over. I don't think carno should be able to knock down a teno, only stagger it at most. And carno is fragile, compared to the other mid tiers. But that's just it, we don't have them in the game yet to compare to. But I don't see an allo being able to chase after an omni and keep up with it at all. So it wouldn't do the same thing carno does with charge right now.

[golden coral]

What?

[somber sphinx]

That’s not what he said at all

[golden coral]

I don't think you're meant to have the power to fight back much against the designated small game hunter. You can run, which is fine.

[stray venture]

man yall goofy bro I can't lmao

[golden coral]

And if you do have 3-4 omnis vs a solo carno, then you can fight it.

[somber sphinx]

Well you can fight back but also being alone would not be a good idea especially against something 4x the size of you

[golden coral]

Though I would still advice not doing so in the open, since that is kind of carnos domain.

[rustic pivot]

dog he said utah should fear carno for its life, sure if its alone but a duo should fight them

two or more utahs should be fighting back

[somber sphinx]

Duo should also have to worry, 3 couId

[golden coral]

3-4 at least. Not a duo, are you serious? Carno is four times your size/weight.

[obtuse ocean]

lol duo should run

[rustic pivot]

just because carno has the title small game hunter doesn't mean it should kill all of them without trying, whats cerato gonna do go hide in the jungle?

[golden coral]

Cerato might get a bunch of really powerful defensive abilities. Also it's not that "small" :p

We might get the 1.3T cerato or so I've heard. That's... over twice the size of an omni.

[obtuse ocean]

I have no problem with carnos, unless i run out in the open

[rustic pivot]

it is a small tier tho

[golden coral]

Ah yes, because there's no variation in size and abiltiies for things in a tier.

[somber sphinx]

Cera is around the 1 ton mark so it would ofc be able to defend itself from carno like teno is

[golden coral]

Obviously. If they want cerato to body carno then it will, just like teno can fight back despite being "smaller". Doesn't mean an omni or pachy should be able to thoiugh.

[rustic pivot]

and sure duos should run but you get the point, carno's charge should not be for chasing but for ambushing

[somber sphinx]

But why? Why should it?

[golden coral]

Also cerato is heavily implied to be of the honey badger/wolverine variety, so very powerful and vicious for it's size, capable of defending itself from larger targets.

[rustic pivot]

because carno was made for ambushing?

utah is our small tier pursuit pred btw

[golden coral]

Well, I guess we disagree there then. I feel like it makes much more sense to use the charge for chasing/pursuing over some kind of "sit and wait" ambush. Especially if allo gets the speed boost/"ambush" jump on things (if we trust the concept that is and interpret it correctly at that).

[somber sphinx]

Carno: tall, loud, plains hunter, small game hunter

Hmm yes this animal ambushes it’s prey

[obtuse ocean]

If you play carno, prob fastes in game. And im supose to crawl/hiding around with that speed. Sounds bad

[golden coral]

It's an attrition/endurance/persistence hunter. Not pursuit.

[somber sphinx]

More endurance based than pursuit based

[golden coral]

Carno was really not well designed for ambushing, and the kinds of targets it hunts does not lend itself well to ambushing either, especially not with the biome it lives in.

[rustic pivot]

lets say even if carnos charge was for chasing down, you can't lie its so overtuned

[golden coral]

Yes, the hitbox is off. It could do with a startup cost, and the damage should be nerfed, as should the CC.

[somber sphinx]

The hit box is the biggest issue currently, fix that first until we change things

[sick vine]

is the hitbox actually really bad or is it just a ping+speed thing

[golden coral]

Also pachy CC needs to get dealt with. No good that you can stunlock a carno or teno on your own and kill it slowly.

[golden coral]

From what has been tested, it's bad.

[sick vine]

i play on like 100 ping servers

[rustic pivot]

hitbox is the worst part, but why is bro drifting at max speed

[sick vine]

yea carno turn is kinda cringe

[somber sphinx]

Imagine magy, dibble, kentro, cera or bary if it dosent get fixed

[golden coral]

To be fair, the concept art had pachy break kentro so xD

[somber sphinx]

[dusky surge]

i like carno charge with actually decent turn

[hollow canyon]

Carno will have challenges, Utah aint supposed to be one of them unless it has a serious advantage in numbers.

Utah is exactly the kind of animal Carno is supposed to be hunting. It's obviously overtuned right now but so was Utah last update.

[hollow canyon]

I think the charge is ok it just needs the couple of fixes we all mentioned on more than one occasion

it can't stay like it is right now

[dusky surge]

of course, the hitbox is insanity

[hollow canyon]

hitbox is obviously the biggest issue followed by just how insane the damage of that ability is

it deals more damage than Teno's kick atm

[dusky surge]

im fine with the damage, less fine with the knockdown ranges

[hollow canyon]

I'm not fine with damage at all, this thing can oneshot a Utah with a headshot

which Carno should never be oneshotting a Utah imo

under no circumstances

[dusky surge]

i dont really see why not though, it's hunting small game, if you let a carno run into your skull, i dont see why you should keep on kicking

[hollow canyon]

there was that one update I think 3.75 when Carno could just straight up oneshot Utah with charge(which didn't have locational at the time) damn that was messed up

[hollow canyon]

it's not so much about it getting oneshot on headshots, it's more so about how much damage it deals when you hit any other bodypart

300 dmg is an insane number for any ability

Carno should deal the lion share of its damage output via bites

not by running into stuff

[sick vine]

see the thing is rn mass utahs are not a danger to carno since you can just cycle charge

unless there are actually so many utahs that you get stammed before you can kill them all you are unkillable

[hollow canyon]

Carno has only 60 seconds of base runtime

and charge drains it even faster

it's not cycle charging much of anything unless it gets to kill them fast

[sick vine]

you only need 0.75 seconds of run time to charge one of them

[hollow canyon]

which Utahs shouldn't be allowing to happen

[sick vine]

you can't really prevent it from happening

[hollow canyon]

nah you need to run a bit longer than that

Carno needs to take like 5 steps before it can trigger charge

I've checked that right after the update came out

[sick vine]

if you latch on them you get bucked and ether lose all your stam or just stunend and killed

[hollow canyon]

it's more than 0.75 seconds

[sick vine]

it's like actually 3 steps bro

[dusky surge]

i dont think omni SHOULD be a real danger to carno tbh, always weird to me how the carno was more happy to hunt an animal nearly its size (teno) than the actual small game it was advertised to hunt down (this is still a problem with how pachy just punches WAYYY out of its size tier and basically doesn't fear carno). I'd prefer it if pachy and omni actually respected it more, whereas teno didn't fear the two-legged monster would just cycle charge it to death

[hollow canyon]

If Utah stays latched on for so long that Carno eats up all of its stamina then that's on the Utah

[hollow canyon]

Pachy fears nothing in general

it abuses the hell out of Tenonto

[sick vine]

pachys are mad broke rn tbh

[dusky surge]

pachy is completely stupid, 100%

[hollow canyon]

they were broken since they came out

it's just this update really emphasises it

[dusky surge]

i will stand by the fact that it staggering animals over 2x its size is wrong and stupid

[hollow canyon]

last update they were controlled by the broken overpowered Utah

but atm they can actually abuse Utahs and keep the current broken Carno in check

which honestly says a lot about how strong they are

but yea this animal is kind of conceptually broken

[hollow canyon]

it is, it's more like 3x+ its size

[sick vine]

like the only way a pachy dies rn is if ambushed by a carno or deinos i guess

[dusky surge]

how i'd do pachy is by making it that if you fracture a limb, you get staggered (falls, pachys, etc). Pachy can only stagger animals 2x its size and below, meaning it can only stagger a carno/teno 3 times, then it has to heavily consider retreat

[rustic pivot]

Pachy fears nothing but a carno can kill it if played well

[hollow canyon]

yea Carno sure can kill it, no doubt about that

but Pachy can even 1v1 it depending on the circumstances

it's a skill match up 1v1 between a Utah-sized animal and Carno at its most broken op in ages

[rustic pivot]

Pachy vs carno pretty much comes down to who sees who first unless there’s a skill difference

[hollow canyon]

nah, Pachy can counter Carno's charge

[sick vine]

yea

[hollow canyon]

unless you get hit with the charge out of nowhere

you're good more or less

[golden coral]

Tap pounces. Bait bucking. Bait charges. Run the carno out of stam, then it can't buck at all, and just dies.

[rustic pivot]

That’s what I’m inferring yeah

[hollow canyon]

that's fine then

Pachy needs some changes

Carno just needs to be tuned down

[dusky surge]

but yea, pachy should be more of a "fracture and run" against animals like carno, but still a "i will slaughter you for the transgression of approaching me" against smaller animals like omni

[hollow canyon]

Omni needs its stamina to go down fluidly and maybe have it run out slightly slower

and everything needs more runtime

especially Dryo

[hasty coyote]

especially since that interaction is bugged (I hope its a bug and not some buff that wasn't noted). I still want the trade like last patch, that interaction was actually good.

[sick vine]

bro dryo feels so bad rn using dodge actually takes like 15% of your stam

[hollow canyon]

10%

[hasty coyote]

only 10%, but still insane amount for poor dude

you dodge like 3 times and now omni can just run you down

[sick vine]

how much speed do you even get for dodging forward

[hollow canyon]

that's 12 seconds of runtime

every time you dodge

you have 15 seconds more than a Utah does

so technically after dodging twice

[hasty coyote]

barely any

[hollow canyon]

Utah will kill you unless you can lose it in the remaining time

[sick vine]

yea i was juicing some utahs as dryos and after like 3 dodges i was like where is my stam

it's brutal

[hollow canyon]

Utah has 105 seconds of runtime to 120 seconds on Dryo

[sick vine]

utah is like what? 4 mph faster?

[hollow canyon]

km/h

not mph that would be insane

[sick vine]

dryo is 43 to 46.8 or something

[hasty coyote]

so, the animal whose sole escape option is running, has less speed and essentially less stam than something who can 1-shot it... that is the definition of unviable lmao

[sick vine]

nah i don't mind being slower but you should 100% win the stam game

i rather dryo not become hold W+shift to escape

i actually made a post in #balance-feedback about my ideas to help dryo out a bit

[hasty coyote]

slower, sure, but not being able to outrun it omni is insane. Sub pachy is literally just a better version since its faster, has more stam, and can fracture omni.

[golden coral]

Just need to remove, or really lower the cost on the dodge, and add some runtime. It should be slower than omni, but maybe not by as much, could up the speed to 45.something maybe.

[sick vine]

i personally would much rather they double down on being evasive for dryo like i said i really really don't want dryo to just hold w+shift to escape all chases

[golden coral]

Yeah, evasive/bouncy dryo is preferable to just running. Let galli do the running instead.

[sick vine]

45 is too much imo it's only like a 4 kmph diff so any change is massive

4kmph diff for utah i mean

that's a 80% effective decrease in speed for the utah

[hasty coyote]

I wouldn't remove the cost entirely, since you can just spam forward jump and go ZOOOOOM.

[sick vine]

while that would be pretty fun i don't think it would be very fair

let dryo dodge midair 😏

[golden coral]

Fair, just lower it to 2.5-5% or so then. And up the speed a bit for normal run then.

[golden coral]

I mean, omni can pounce midair... :p

[sick vine]

TRUE

only fair devs chop chop

[golden coral]

Omni would still be faster though, but would 44 be better then? What we have now is a bit slow I'd say.

[sick vine]

yea i think 44 would be a good number

[dusky surge]

honestly, i'd rather it be buffed in other ways than speed

[golden coral]

That's fair, but I do think it could do with a little more speed, between 44-45 would be nice. How fast is pachy?

[dusky surge]

like, 41 something iirc

[golden coral]

Thanks!

[dusky surge]

ideally, i'd like nocturnal dryo with crazy NV (obviously, I keep talking about how much I'd like it), better dodge stam and so on

[golden coral]

Nocturnal dryo would be awesome yes!

[sick vine]

honestly at least make the dot diet for dryo less annoying to get so i can get useful buffs

[dawn falcon]

Would you even say third best NV, below Dilo and troodon?

[dusky surge]

i'd think that'd be great, yea

[dawn falcon]

Agreed

[sick vine]

best nv atm is actually pter fun fact

it's nv is like a cone downward

[dusky surge]

nothing has the best NV

[sick vine]

play pter it has the best and it's not close

[dusky surge]

all NV is the same

[dawn falcon]

^

[dusky surge]

ptera has the same NV as literally everything else

[dawn falcon]

You’re smaller so it gives you the illusion of having farther NV.

[dusky surge]

not a single animal has better NV than another animal

[sick vine]

fly into the air

[dusky surge]

that's just flight interacting weirdly with NV

ptera's NV is still the exact same statistically

[sick vine]

the NV seems to be a upside down cone so the higher you are the more you can see

which pter can fly so

[dawn falcon]

It’s the same with Tenonto.
You’re larger, therefore your camera is zoomed out farther, and gives you the illusion of a smaller radius

So it’s not that everything has different NV.. it’s that it doesn’t actually vary between species yet. But rather, your camera angle and zoom will make it seem larger or smaller.

[tall bronze]

Punch had mentioned in the past that NV will be getting more depth to it in UP 6.5, including species-based NV. Hopefully there's more to it than just ranges. Like color and even clarity.

[sick vine]

@wraith relic really not a fan of that idea unless you would be able to toggle it. i would prefer to keep full control of my dodge direction

[wraith relic]

Oh yeah it could be togglable

[golden coral]

I agree. I always liked using the alt and camera to look around and decide dodge direction.

[dawn falcon]

Personally. I think the cost for dodge should be decreased significantly.

People don’t realize just HOW useful the dodge is.
If somethings about to bite you, you can dodge behind them and force them to skid.

Cutting down the cost makes it significantly more useful because it won’t tank your stamina lol

[dusky surge]

i'd be happy with a 3% stamcost tbh

what is it atm, 10%?

[keen plover]

Yeah 10%

[dusky surge]

yea, that's absurd lol

[dawn falcon]

100% ^

[keen plover]

Isn't the stamina pool equal to omnis as well

[dusky surge]

(then there was that guy who suggested carno charge should have an initial cost of 15% lol)

[keen plover]

or barely better

[dusky surge]

higher

[keen plover]

Is it significant?

[dusky surge]

like, 15 seconds

one dodge basically makes them have the same stam lol

[keen plover]

And with omnis better top speed, yeah gg

[dusky surge]

120 - 12 = 108. Omni has 105 seconds runtime iirc

[keen plover]

I feel like dryo should be a stamina beast

Being barely better than omni feels kind of bad

[dusky surge]

IDK, I feel like it should probably get burrows and nocturnal habits as a niche tbh

Full-on rabbit style, hides/stays close to burrow in day, ventures out for food at night

[keen plover]

I feel like it being that small, it could be a blend tbh. I don't see how it would harm dryo to have better stamina. You still have a lot of chances to get caught by an omni. Ambush, mid chase etc. I feel like omni chasing you out of stam isn't that fun in the current game.

Until burrows at least

Then it can get those changes

[dusky surge]

Honestly, I personally dislike the fact that dryo has to engage with omni and carno

[keen plover]

Yeah. Maybe when we have a complete night life ,Dryo would be better. But we'll probably only have troodon for it to play against at night. Also, Omni isn't that bad at night as well

Need both burrows and different night vision ranges for Dryo to actually have its own place

And with galli being relatively soon in terms of dinos we'll get, it's kind of stuck in a place of being 'worse galli'

[sick vine]

i like the place dryo is in (other than their stam game atm that's awful) being evasive is waaay more fun than hold W to escape that galli was

[keen plover]

Oh yeah, it is. The issue is that omni is not only faster, there is barely any noticeable difference in stamina. Also, if a smaller omni exists, you kind of just die. Since they have the stamina, agilty and speed to keep up. I'd make it where Dryo beats omni in the stamina game (by a lot), while omni can opt into ambushing and giving a decent chase to kill a dryo

[sick vine]

I think omni being faster is good but the stam game with dryo is so bad rn

like i said just being able to run away is extremely boring to me

but dryo no longer has the tools to actually get away anymore due to awful stam game

or rather can not use it's tools to get away is a better way of saying it

[fleet kelp]

They destroy the less balance they had had whit the last Update.
Carno charge do way to much dmg, it should be a a stun function but it do mor dmg than a bite were is the logic?

Crocs are now way to fast and had to much Stam to run around like a Lizard. A sub croc can garb and carry ppl over the half map.... on Land they should be Slow and use much stam to run. in the water they can make the Stam better for Grab but not on land.

The Teno is ok, but also he can may get less Bleed, its like impossible for Utahs to kill anything now.

For Utahs the Stamina drain is to insane also whit the buff, if you make The drain for the Pounce this hard they mus use less stam for running everything can run them out of stam after a Pounce.

Its so sad that they make it mor worse whit every update....

[hollow canyon]

If you think they make it worse with every update then you haven't played this game for very long

Utah was utter garbage for almost a year and ended up getting buffed repeatedly before it reached the state it was in on U5

The balance hasn't been destroyed since it was garbage for a long, long time, it's just shifting from one update to another.

The current state of Carno and Pachy is definitely not intended, they will get nerfed for sure(just like it was quite obvious that Utah was not going to stay in its overpowered state of U5)

Teno is anything but ok but you're probably saying that because you play mainly Utah. This animal suffers so much abuse at the hands of a Pachy that wants it dead that it isn't even funny(admittedly this has been a thing for quite some time, it's just that hardly anyone realised that until now)

Crocs being having as long of runtime as they do while subadult is the consequence of how stamina scales across the growth, that's the thing that needs to be looked at by the balancing team

Smaller animals have such insane stamina pools that they can use their abilities and run forever before getting tired, I understand this is intended to give them some advantage over their fully grown counterparts but goddamn it's overtuned right now

[neon willow]

Eh personally I think the 2 changes that would help Utah out a LOT is to fix it's hitbox (carno charge, stego tail swing, deino lunge, etc all seem to collide with the Utah despite the Utah rendering nowhere nearby on the Utah's screen, which leads to Utah not being able to dodge because it doesn't know where it is relative to incoming attacks) and to make bucked Stam drain smooth Stam over time, rather than in 2-3 large chunks

Utah would likely be in a much better place if that happened

[golden coral]

The charge is on the carno side, not the omnis, and the same goes for the lunge, from what I know at least. Stego is not an issue from what I've seen. There's nothing wrong with the omni hitbox that I've seen, no idea where that comes from.

[thin mantle]

Stegos tail actually has an alarmingly tight hitbox, so that’s a latency issue

[neon willow]

Well... Having personally seen it, I'm not sure I entirely believe that. I've always had really stable, fast internet, but since the update I've been absolutely butchered by carnos a million miles away from me. It's to the point of not wanting to play anymore because I can't avoid attacks that appear, to me, to be nowhere close to my dino

[thin mantle]

Oh yeah Carno charge is broken

[neon willow]

And again, my internet hasn't changed, but the game has

[thin mantle]

I was just talking about stego

[dawn falcon]

Lmao what are those reactions

[golden coral]

No idea. Not sure how apex has anything to do with it, much less how it relates to where the issue with a hitbox is. Carno charge is an issue with the carno, not the omni hitbox.

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message
i basically disagree with every single balance change posted in this lol. Not with the idea, mind you, carnos and pachies need nerfing, but the way it's proposed is ridiculous. Also reverting omni SHOULD NOT HAPPEN, otherwise it will immediately become the most dominant animal in the game again

[sick vine]

yea people got some short term memory when it comes to stuff like this. Omni itself is fine rn it's just carno and pachy are unbelievably broken

[golden coral]

I take more issue with the whole "there's some good and bad in here, how do I mark it" :p That feedback in general should maybe be a rule!

[dusky surge]

i actually dont like any of it lol

besides maybe the sub changes, but sub in general is weird

i'd rather the stam buff wear off earlier, at around 50%

rather than the speed be nerfed

[hasty coyote]

Could be neat where you go from good stam and bad hp and stats. Then good stam and speed but bad stats. And lastly average speed, stam, and stats.

[hollow canyon]

<@&933486433342222376> The reactions - Edit: pardon me didn't realise those people are already banned/muted

[hollow canyon]

@stone glen Perfect diet makes you grow Stego/Deino in less than 5 hours on this update.

[stone glen]

Well.. Mb we playing different versions

[hollow canyon]

Yea although I think you'd have to be playing update 4 for that to take over 5 hours with a perfect diet.

[stone glen]

Idk how but here it is

[hollow canyon]

the current growth time of Deino and Stego with a perfect diet throughout the whole growth is somewhere over 4h right now

[verbal zenith]

@orchid prairie Deino's are more closely related alligators, but they both will charge in the hopes of eating something. There are also videos of people mimicking a Alligator hatchling which has female gators charge them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6VDjweHg9M

[orchid prairie]

Keep in mind that isle isn’t meant to 1:1 with real life. Deinos play style for the isle is to be a water based ambush predator and considering it can drown a lot of the intended roster there’s no real incentive to go hunting on land considering everything needs to drink. deinos should only really be on land for specific reasons such as basking, nesting ect. Not hunting unless it’s by the waters edge and something either doesn’t see you or you surprise whatever it is. When you take into account deino is an apex, allowing them to hunt on land effectively without heavy discouragement like I suggested creates unnecessary problems for the game.

[sick vine]

deino doesn't need to be more overwhelmingly powerful than it already is

[golden coral]

@marble gull
For the omni, crouching already gives you longer pounce distance. And aside from that, I can see this being a new version of "just crouch mid combat". Sure, it would add a warning to the target that this omni is planning to pounce, but it might still look a bit silly if they keep doing that. You're also sort of negating the concept of first wearing out the target, and then pouncing. While omni, like most things, can benefit from getting the jump, it makes some sense that they would hunt the slower targets and bait them before being able to pounce and actually inflict any real damage. Ambushing for omnis should be more of the reward of getting all the omnis on at the same time, to start off the fight good, then surround and harass until the target is worn down, and this can be done due to the extra distance on crouched pounce. I'm also not sure omni should be that good vs "same lane" animals if it is allowed to punch up as much as it is. And for that matter, the only "same lane" animal we currently have is pachy, the "hard counter" to omni as it were.

For carno, it's not really good at the whole ambush thing, nor do I think charge should be used like that. The new charge lends itself far more to pursuit and is suitable for hunting agile targets. The issue in the matchup there is that carno can just knockdown tenos, instead of being more limited in what it can actually apply to them, as well as the very high damage on the charge that probably shouldn't be a thing, similar to how carno should not do as much bleed as it does. Aside from that, there's a few ideas such as adding a startup cost to charge to prevent it being spammed, and it could also be looked at how much stam the charge drains, if it needs to drain more or something.

Pachy, you kind of got it right, though I'm not sure we need to add debuffs, we just need to prevent pachy from being able to consistenly stun/stunlock targets like carno and teno. There's a few ideas around for this, that still allows pachy to get stuns when it needs until it gets the fracture in or in other ways making sure that the pachy can properly fight back, but only until it has gotten the result it needs to be able to safely run away instead. A single pachy or possibly even a duo that remains to fight a carno or teno should just die if it doesn't back away in time.

Concerning stego, from what I know it's not really that much more "advantaged" in comparison to the others in growth. You reach 1-2T relatively quickly now thanks to new growth, but a stego at that size is vunerable, since you can get knocked down by carno (or stunned if you're a little too big), you have less damage and less reach on your tail due to size, and obviously much less health and blood, so much easier to kill overall. But if you were to "lock" stego at a smaller size, you'd inevitably would have to do the same with deino, as well as most likely adjust their growth times (or at least stegos, since deino would still be way more "op" even at a smaller size). As it stands, two deinos will kill a solo stego, a few omnis can do the same if they know how to go about it. It is by far more vunerable overall than it's "counterpart" deino so if one is changed the other absolutely needs to be changed too.

I do find it a little funny you talk about skill considering the only playable that actually takes any form of skill is teno, and it got no mention. Most of the other playables range from easy to very easy to play, and currently most of them aren't really that interesting or engaging in combat, or otherwise. Lunge have no proper counter, pounce/buck is just click/hold RMB or E, and so on.

[hasty coyote]

Saying teno is the only one that requires skill is quite an understatement honestly.
Omni needs to know pack tactics, dodging, and when to pounce and jump off the target.
Pachy needs to know the timing and angle to hit the breaks it needs of large things, and needs good timing on small things like Omni.
Teno just needs to know the hitboxes of its attacks and when to use each.

Overall though I do agree with the criticisms on their arguments though.

[marble gull]

Hey, thank you for taking the time to read and reply!

Starting off with what you said regarding omni, since i can type freely here, i can elaborate on what i said.
The example was with crouch but i did also mention that it could be any other action. Now regarding the effect of the enhanced pounce, the buff could be that it applies more bleed and takes a % of that animal's stamina off to make it easier to wore down and chase. At the same time, missing said pounce would result in much heavier punishing window as the omni could even fall down completely do to the force it is using.This should be a move designed to either provide a huge advantage if used correctly or a fatal disadvantage if not. Now, the only animals that can get easily killed by multiple of theses are single stegos which i believe should be the case. Currently, in order for a 6 stack of omnis to take down a fully grown stego not only posses a great risk dew to one shots but also the fact that it takes waaaaaay too long to bleed it out before it reaches a tree to stick its head into or go knee deep water. Having played the new map that will come out soon, those two defense mechanism will be even easier for the stego to pull off as there is more water and tree like objects in the map. Tenos and carnos can still run quite fast with an omni on them to avoid other omnis while still bucking at the same time. Remember, if you get ambushed, you should be at a disadvantage and your top priority should be to get again. Also a solo/duo omni doesnt really have a lot of options when it comes to hunting. I'm taking examples from my personal experience in this game, i rarely see solo herbs either the same or different species in the game. So in the current patch, omni can "safely" kill a bad pachy, a very young stego or a bad carno that is bellow 60% growth (after that the damage speed and stam of the carno makes the matchup unplayable, which should be the case). This is why i believe a "buffed pounce" would benefit the game in general. Now this could have also a big cooldown or other mechanics not make it less spamable and only used for kill shots or ambushes, when the prey is going to get hit 100%.

Regarding the carno, like most if not all predators, ambushing is always the best strategy, getting that stun/knock down into a headshot bite should always be the way you start a fight. An enemy that has seen you before has a way higher chance to counter your charge than an unsuspecting enemy. Whether you can pull it off or not in every single fight is a different topic because it has a lot of variables like landscape, stam, species, etc. When it comes to the penalty I suggested, its all up to what works better, yours is a very good example as well as it makes the carno commit to the fight before landing a hit as their stam is taken away as they charge. That means though that the charge mechanic will need to change to where you can use charge attacks after going into the charge animation for X amount of seconds because right now you can just run full speed and only press charge right before hitting the enemy. All in all, it's just something that would give the animal more of a higher skill ceiling and create less casual stomping.

On pachy it seems that we agree so ill go straight to stego.
Stegos should be vulnerable as every other animal in the game when faced with other bigger animals (growth size i mean). That is the only healthy part of the stego in this current roster as when it becomes full adult it has little to no bad match ups and I say little to non because you mentioned the deinos. Which lets be honest, for that to happen the stego needs to stand still while both are biting it which if true, it deserves to die, no? Other than that it can easily avoid omnis with the tactics mentioned above which have no counterplay.

I didnt mention tenos or deinos because they are perfectly balanced in my humble opinion as i said in the initial thread. Again, thanks for the reply!

[marble gull]

I agree with what you mentioned here as every animal in the current roster requires skill to survive as intended. Of course there are some exploits that make it easier for some and harder for others but they will hopefully be addressed!

Also, I would like to add that I'm biased to solo play as I'm a 90% solo player so ofcourse my opinions do not reflect the majority of the community.

[golden coral]

Teno needs more skill because it actually needs to use different attacks for different circumstances and to achieve the goal. While all the others are much more limited in their options of attacks and methods, and as such, are far easier to play. Most of what you mentioned is quite frankly very easy to learn. Knowing when to use different attacks, and being good at using them all, is still more demanding than just knowing when to attack/avoid ,or just having timing. Teno needs as much timing for all of it's attacks, and the same knowledge of when to do an attack or not, but it also has the extra of which attack and why to do it, which is why it has more demands than any of the others.

[hasty coyote]

I don’t see that any differently than pachy’s ram personally.
Teno has to tail slam a charging carno and kick it while it’s stunned, maybe hit an alt attack while on the offensive.
Pachy has to use its ram to get the fractures it needs, if you just spam ram against carno, you’re likely just going to get a body fracture. If you actually know where to hit, you can easily get all 3 fractures and escape.

If teno fights Omni, it likely needs to angle its tail at them and use tail slam, and use alt if it gets a chance while they are in front.
Pachy fighting an omni needs to decide if it should try a charged ram, tap ram, or alt swing, to try and catch the omni. Then once the omni is down, the pachy has to decide which attack to use again. If it goes for a tap ram, it needs to see what break it needs to get and what break it can get.

Now I’m not saying teno doesn’t take skill, but others need a good amount as well. Teno may have the highest skill floor, but the others still show a massive difference between someone spamming buttons without care and someone actually knowing what to do.

[golden coral]

I'll start off by saying that elaboration is really good, since it gives much more depth to your suggestion. If you do make the crouched pounce more reward, but also more risk, that could be interesting. Let's see. I would still worry a bit about the whole "crouching in mid combat" style, but that is more of an "immersion" thing to be fair. Making a crouched pounce add a bit of stam to the "impact", but working the same aside, would be interesting and would help with the concept of wearing the target down. Add a longer recovery rate (maybe the whole knockdown instead of just stagger) and that could work out. Not sure I think using those pounces should be more dangerous aside from the stam drain (now that you can't buck when out of stam, that'd be very helpful). So being killed by multiple of them seems odd, the point would not be to kill, but to achieve the state where killing is doable easier if you get how I mean. (yes you can run while bucking, but if you do, you'll just run out of stam immediately. You drain stam just by having a omni pounce you if you move already as it is). And it does make sense that a solo/duo omni struggles, both because they're a pack hunter, and because the roster isn't good for them. Pachy is the "hard counter", and carno is the designated "small game hunter", and then there's stego, see the next paragraph.

Honestly, stegos should not be hunted by omnis, the one animal in the roster with flank defense vs the animal attacking the flanks? It just doesn't work out, and only wounded solo stegos should be a "good" target for omnis. What we need there is more reason for stegos to be solo/pairs only and more reason to not get along so well but rather fight each other (more like deinos, but hopefully working, since we all know deinos come in huger numbers despite any infighting they have). So all in all, stego is probably, aside from anky, the worst target for an omni pack, as bad, if not worse if done correctly, than going after a deino on land. And omnis stand very little, if any chance, at taking down a deino as it stands, even if it fights them the entire time on land. At least from my experience. So stego should be just as hard, if not worse, if it's done properly. It should take at least 7-8 omnis for a potentially successful hunt, and that should include a good amount of losses, they are fighting an apex after all, it should by no means be easy or "painless".

And while I do agree that if something gets the jump on you, you're worse off, you already kind of are, taking one or more hits before you can retaliate, which goes for most things from what I know at least. So that's not really a species specific thing. And sure, carno do benefit from getting the jump, so does everything. You can get the jump on anything as anything else and benefit, even if you're a dryo nibbling a carno or something (you get a free hit before the carno tries to murder you, for what that is worth!). It's more so that I don't see carno really "headshotting" an aware target, and with carno living in plains, open areas, there's no real excuse for not seeing it coming. (also why is the semiaquatic teno in the plains, and not the swamp or similar area with you know, water to use to escape stuff? Teno could do with being more water oriented really, or live in biomes with more water easily accessible for use, at least in my opinion).

But to me carno should play more like a cheetah, you want to get near because you have limited stam to use, but you're more so using the charge to "keep up" with the omni or pachy or dryo in turn radius (maybe not pachy cause ram counter but still, that might need a look at too). And as such, I don't think an added debuff on using charge is a good thing, more so just adding start up, and high drain so it's a matter of "Can I get close enough, and keep up, so I can knock it over and then finish it off with bites before it jukes me too much and I run out of stam entirely", again think cheetah but stam instead of "overheating". You can just run for now, but have you seen the new turn radius in normal carno run? It's even worse than before, so now the charge is your way of getting a better turn, combined with the ability to take the target out.

Stego is vunerable to most others if they're about the same size. I honestly do not see a stego winning vs a carno if they're both around 2T and the carno knows what it's doing. Even a teno could probably fight that, much as it is more defensively oriented. Especially with that size stego less reach on jab, and teno tail slam on the stego head. So from what I know, stego is vunerable, plenty so. There's also the issue of well, stego can't really escape or hide, so it does have to do something, which comes down to fighting. So I'm not sure what more you want vunerabiity wise there. Even a 2T stego can most likely be killed by a solo omni knowing what it does, and at the very least a pair or trio can do it. As for deinos, the lunge does more damage now plus the stun, wich means one of you stun, the other goes ham with bite/alt bite on the head. The stego dies unless it runs as soon as it can, and that still depends on if you can "block" it with one of you or not long enough. And yes, a stego that does not run vs two deinos deserve to die.

I can agree tenos are quite well balanced. Deinos, I honestly have no idea how you can consider them balanced, much less well balanced. If you feel that stego is not vunerable enough, then I have to wonder where you see deinos vunerabilities. So far, 90% of all advantages if we compare those playables, goes to deino. So for all that you don't see stego as vunerable to "same size" opponents, deino is even less so due to well, safety biome of water. And the same goes in any matchup. Stego can die to carnos, omnis, tenos, probably even pachys. A deino on the other hand, just goes into water, dives, and is literally untouchable even if you have a megapack of something to fight it. And it can do this at any stage of it's growth. And even retaliate vaguely safely (depending on size and what you're up against), due to lunge. A stego can maybe put head into rock, a deino does not even need to find a rock. (not to mention it's extra blood pool and the massive bleed resistance it has on top of that).

.... So much text! I'm so sorry, apparently I enjoy writing entire essays! :D

[hasty coyote]

Me writing essays for school:
Me writing essays about the balance in a dinosaur video game:

[golden coral]

Which is kind of the thing. Teno has to use both slam and kick, and use the right one at the right time. And be able to land both, knowing how both of them work. While pachy "only" has ram most of the time (though it does have a useful alt so it's maybe slightly more demanding I suppose). Though considering right now, getting a body fracture is very useful from what I've heard, so that'd possibly be good enough. But ram is still just one attack, even if you have to attack more than once with it.

Obviously there's a difference between just spamming buttons, but that's also not what I would even count as skill. Skill is more so the actual demands to be good with the playable, and compared to the others, teno has more things you need to be good at to be good at it as a whole, unlike the others. Most of what you argue, applies to them all in the sense of knowing how the attack works and which area to aim for and all that, but most of the others are overall far easier to figure out and get used to.

[golden coral]

Pretty much, though I was pretty good at writing those too! :D

@marble gullThere, maybe that'll make it a little easier to read :D

[thin mantle]

To be a bit more specific with deino, it moreso circumvents the concept of balance in this game, it completely negates any advantages or weaknesses that other animals it engages may have because it's ability works equally well against everything aside from the 1 animal it doesn't...which it has no need to fight off or hunt as it's fairly well supplied, and exists within an environment that affords it complete exclusivity, the only way you can make deino balanced is by making it either irrelevant, or fundamentally altering it's mechanics

I prefer the latter personally

[marble gull]

i tried to reply but i got timed out for some reason

[stark knoll]

The bot times out swears, can you still access the message?

If not I can send it to you in DMs

[marble gull]

oh ok i copied it, so ill just remove the swears, ty lunary 😄

[golden coral]

Did I make you that angry with my response? xD

[marble gull]

I see your points but what is really surprising to me is the huge difference in experience that we have while playing the game.

From my end, every time i play as deino, im always scared of other deinos because most are cannibals' and because i play solo, i get killed by duos almost always if i stay in the middle area so i have to play as far away as possible to avoid them. Lets not forget that as an adult deino you cannot escape other adult deinos no matter what you do, you are forced into a fight whether you like it or not.

Regarding stegos, again almost always stegos are in groups of 3 or more mix packing or carebaring other species which leaves me no choice but to hunt something else. I have also never in my time playing the isle, seen a 2T carno kill a 2T stego. All the items ive seen by good and bad players resulted in a fast retreat by the carno as the bleed from a stego hit is much stronger than a carno bite. I can see tenos killing stegos and i have seen it happen but only when its a solo stego facing multiple tenos. It is a very rare site but still i have seen it happen. A 2T stego should be vulnerable to a fully grown solo omni in my opinion as it excels a fighting close to same sized slow enemies. That's if it doesnt do the water or tree thing and also has to be alone. Last thing I've experienced alot with stegos is that fully grown ones usually mix pack with other herbies so they can "get into fights". I have seen multiple stegos forming a "safe wall in the water" for other herbs to drink, which is something very problematic for the deino's diet.

When playing as omni, i could handle 1v1s against tenos and pachy, some times also against bad carnos (all fully grown). I say could because i meant before this patch, as now pachy is practically suicide unless it's bad or you get a really good ambush or you are in a pack and in vc at the same time cause pack hunting as omni needs to be raid like coordination to work properly.

Carnos also usually are in packs of 2 to 10 (not even joking) so again really hard to kill one or come across one as another solo carno and not get stunlocked to death.

For the reasons above, i usually play as deino because i like the whole concept of it and i can most of the time play solo, although it is really hard to pull off in areas that are not 5v5 rust aka in the middle of the map. I say its hard because people by now know where deep water is and abuse it alot by drinking from places a deino can never reach them (I do believe this will be fixed with migrations). Having deinos in their current state provides a possibility of certain death for every fully grown animal in the game except stegos.

Again I'm mentioning all of this because its seem like we are having completely different experiences with the game and i do not know if it has to do with luck/server or time.

[marble gull]

no i just typed some swear words to describe fear and bad situations so it blocked my message xD

[golden coral]

Ah, in that much I don't think our experiences differ at all. When I do play deino, I always expect any similar sized or larger deino to attempt to kill me, and plan and react accordingly. (though I've heard you can escape another adult, or at least make it pay if you just go inland and see if it follows. At some point it'll either let you go, and then you might be able to log for the time being, or you'll both die due to dehydration, or if a stego finds you maybe). When I say that deino is advantaged, I'm looking at the whole of the playable compared to stego as it's counterpart. Sure, most of the time stegos do come in numbers, but I can assure you, so does deinos (at least on my chosen server there's a local "mafia" of deinos and all).

Mixing is an issue, but it's not stego specific, and honestly I'd say pachy combo with teno might be worse than either of them comboing with stego (if only due to the other twos ability to reach the target better, and with less risk of collateral, unlike relying on a slow stego to take advantage of a stun or fracture and the obvious risk of the jab taking you out with your target). Though hopefully mixing will be solved in other ways, it's no good to let two combat capable critters work together, since it really messes with balanace. Hopefully on Gateway we can have a bit more proper "biome locking" and keeping herbis more split apart, which should help with stegos getting involved where they should not (and maybe get people to get over the whole "but we're all herbis, we must be friends".

Well, last I tested and all, a grown carno should be quite okay handling a smaller stego (though now with terrible turn radius when running, it might struggle a bit more), and even if stego does decent bleed, so does carno on bite, especially on stego heads. And that stego will be less capable of turning at that (since smaller stegos for some reason retain the terrible turning, unlike the adults who does have a good one). And I'm pretty sure a single or duo of tenos or carnos will take that sized stego quite easily if they know how to go about it. So I'm not sure stego needs to be more vunerable per say, more that it needs to spend more time in that vunerable state, just like deino needs to (stupid "invincible" playable). I don't think it should be vunerable to a solo omni, (though with face pounce and less reach, it might be more vunerable than you think). A 2T stego is still, well, four times the size of an omni, and a stego to boot, so you should probably at least have to have 2-3 omnis to take it out.

And well, I don't think you're meant to "handle" 1v1 as a solo omni vs carno or teno. Those are both three to four time your size, and you're a pack hunter by design. The fact that you could fight them before says a fair bit about how overtuned omni really was. I'd say 2-3 omnis for a teno, 1-2 for a pachy (due to hard counter pachy to omni, it should be a very difficult target), and 3-4 for a carno, for a more or less "fair" fight. I kind of have to disagree on needing to be raid like, but maybe I'm just better at it than most are (to be fair, most of the playerbase does not seem to be good at all, so that's probably the reason why everything seems so much more difficult than it really is).

Carnos coming in megapacks is an issue, as is anything coming in megapacks to be honest. I've seen 3-4 adult deinos + another 2-3 subs, not really fun to engage with at all, grown stego that I am. (also not a fan of meeting full herds of adult stegos, why stego comes in more than pairs is beyond me.). Deino is a good choice for solo, it's probably the best solo hunter we have in the game with the lunge and how well that works for a single target. The issue is more so the whole congregation of deinos we have, for one reason or another.

And yes, lunge is certain death, unless the deino messes up. This is why we need proper counters, like bucking is to pouncing now, and not just "just use terrain, drink in shallow spot", because the latter is neither engaging nor requires much skill, if any from the playable. Hence why the whole "just stand next to tree or cliff to counter pounce" is just as bad. Terrain is useful, but mechanic should counter mechanic. I've suggested a "quick movement" for drinking/eating that could also allow for a "cancel" on deino lunge, so if you react in time due to seeing/hearing or even suspecting the deino, you can get away.

Well, varied experiences are a given, but this is more so a discussion out of stats and balance at times, and that we can check with matchups. We could always try a few combat practices out if you'd like, and see how it goes.

Discord really needs to allow longer messages by default! :D

[marble gull]

You cannot understand how much i want the test maps to come back just to be able to practice my mechanics on all the animals im interested in. Right now, its really time consuming just to get to the full adult phase in order to practice, possibly lose your animal in one minute and then have to regrow it again. I know its possible to get better like this as its the way ive been practicing till now, but it still takes way too much of my time T.T

[thin mantle]

Oh believe me we do....we really do

[golden coral]

Oh but I can, I very much can. You're hardly the first one who wants sandbox back for the purpose of practice. It would be so nice, since I main stego and like deino, it takes a bit to get back to. Even omni, that grows really fast, it's still a bit "draining" to just regrow for the purpose of knowing you're doing to die more often than not only for practice. But at least we do have Scopes server and similar, so we can go there and practice if you want. As well as test specific scenarios and see how good smaller stegos really are vs different things, compared to smaller deino and so on.

[thin mantle]

I just want admin settings that allow me to adjust dino stats on said server for balance testing purposes

And just...to fix some of the issues the main branch may be having

[marble gull]

is scope's server EU or will i be playing on a million ping? T.T

[thin mantle]

It's NA but if Erik is able to play on it with me, someone who lives basically right next to the server location and function relatively normally, you might be fine

[marble gull]

oh that sounds promising! I'll get on tomorrow and message both of you on dc for steam stuff. Its 5am here so i need to hit the sack. Was awesome discussing with you Erik. Have a good night both of you!

[thin mantle]

Sounds good! I'll send a DM or request just for the ancor :)

[golden coral]

And here I was thinking you were operating on a different time zone and if I should tell you I really need to go sleep or not (it's the same time here for me, makes me wonder where you're from!). And the same to you, it was really fun to debate with you, sleep well, and we'll make sure to test out some of our points of contention on the server.

[sick vine]

#balance-feedback message
utah pounce was a problem and a problem doesn't justify the existence of another different problem, more than one thing can be an issue at once

[thin mantle]

Plus, pounces only issue impacting it's performance negatively is how the stam drain chunks instead of reducing smoothly and linearly

Otherwise omni is still very strong

[fresh laurel]

The collision bug:

[hexed sorrel]

@fiery ruin ur pushing it

[frail bobcat]

@fiery ruin since when are 35 kmh and 46.8 kmh the same?

[fiery ruin]

Sub croc was basically tail riding me but idk it’s exact size

[frail bobcat]

Then it was hacking

Sub croc is 35 kmh max

[fiery ruin]

Oh idr I knew subs crocs were fast and had decent stam so I though that was somewhat normal

[idle thistle]

Aren’t younger crocs faster than older crocs on land?

[stark knoll]

Yup

[somber isle]

What I can’t grasp is how Deinos can only catch fish at juvi and sub stage, but can’t grab land Ai at all since it still moves away even when the Deino is hidden underwater.

[rigid tulip]

deinos shouldnt be able to make it near 50% growth off of one fish. by the time they are around the size of modern crocs they shouldnt be surviving off of fish imo, it needs to be difficult to grow something that can one shot most animals by camping a resource all animals need

[sick vine]

people are finally complaining about deino in mass it's about time lmao

[mellow zenith]

Mostly because subadult deino is too much of a threat on land

[vale tangle]

#balance-feedback message
Deino grapple NEEDS to be a thing
and they need to make it so deino straight up CANT lunge when not in water
it is stupid what they can do by just completely abandoning all sense of stealth and ambushing potentially to marathon onto a sitting teno and run back to the water for a free kill.
But also, Deino compared to dinos that arent even its size is incredibly weak such as stego. Deino should have a grapple mechanic for bigger dinos that involves high risk high reward, because rn stegos can just body block potential prey and are completely fearless next to banks because they know nothing will happen to them even though they are 2 tons smaller in weight compared to a deino. While yes that is only 2, dont forget that it is in TONS not to mention Deinos straight power it has with its muscle and jaw strength. It NEEDS to be able to grapple larger prey if it is to compete against other animals in the roster that arent below half its weight. Sadly though I believe a grapple mechanic will never be introduced, the devs have said before that the way they implement dinos into the game are usually their final version minus some small value changes to balance things. Which is my biggest worry and it has been realized. I believe Deino will be left in a state where he cant compete with even mid tier dinos when he should be able to and it seems he will be left that way forever unfortunately.

[golden coral]

@vale tangleDeino can lunge and drown anything up to 4T right now, so what kind of "mid tiers" are you thinking of that it can't "compete" with?

[vale tangle]

Stego like I mentioned

Stego is a mid tier herbivore

[golden coral]

... Stego is not a mid tier, it's an apex, or very close to one

Deino is an apex too, or at least in size and power it is, even if it's not designed to fight other apexes, but it's very much designed to hunt midtiers.

[dusky surge]

stego is an apex, not a mid-tier lol

[vale tangle]

Okay well so is Deino so it doesnt really change much

[dusky surge]

deino is literally fine, it doesn't need to compete with stego lol

already one of, if not the strongest animals in the game rn

[vale tangle]

Stego is the strongest animal in the game right now and it weighs 2 tons less than deino
Deino is only strong in the most niche of circumstances

[golden coral]

Except you claimed it couldn't compete with mids, when it's designed to just grab and drown most of them with little counterplay. Sure, deino isn't designed to hunt or fight other apexes, but that's fine. It's not an apex killer from what it seems at least, nor does it need to. Spino would be a concern, as would any of the other apexes really.

[vale tangle]

Then excuse me, it cant compete with other dinos of its same tier

I said mid cause I thought stego was a mid tier

[dusky surge]

lmao, no, stego is not nearly the strongest. It only has a favourable matchup against deino, that's it's single best factor

[dusky surge]

good. it's not meant to

deino is meant to punch down, not fight its own size

[vale tangle]

Stego isnt its own size

[golden coral]

So noted. You're excused. And you're right, it can't compete with the others of it's own tier, and that is, from what I can tell, by design. And it could be due to as you pointed out, we have a lacking grapple mechanic. Because as it works right now, it'd be very bad to jut lose a fully grown stego the same way you lose a teno or carno.

If we had a better grapple mechanic with actual counters and all, then it could probably allow for deino to hunt other apexes, but as it stands, that'd not work out well due to how lunge works.

[hasty coyote]

deino is already a MASSIVE punch-down animal, fighting things its size should be difficult. Plus, deino (going by stats and strats) can 1v1 a stego unless the stego runs away to heal

[golden coral]

Though I'm not sure if deino is meant to hunt rexes and stuff or not to be honest. People may or may not take that Hope trailer out of context a bit.

[vale tangle]

I guess I just dont understand how a 8 ton alligator cant even challange a 6 ton stego without nearly dying because it simply cant just grapple it
A feature that was also mentioned to be released later after deinos release but as of now it seems that possiblility is gone

[vale tangle]

From Hope's trailer it heavily implies it

[dusky surge]

hope's trailer implies a lot of things lol

[vale tangle]

But from how the game is now, deino would get literally stompt

[vale tangle]

It is very misleading i know

[dusky surge]

i dont see an issue in deino getting stomped by rex anyway

[hasty coyote]

plus, what would be the point of playing basically anything else when deino can literally murder the entire roster with either no, or very little counterplay?

[vale tangle]

Me neither

[stark knoll]

Cats hiss at bears, but I don't expect them to be evenly matched

[golden coral]

Because of how it's design is, and how it's main mechanic works. You can't only look at stats, but also how it functions in the game and all that. Sure, stego is "smaller", but that is only one part. Look at how omnis can punch up, and is expected to hunt apexes, despite being the size it is.

Also we may or may not get a more powerful stego anyway.

[dusky surge]

thats also true, at no point in hope do these animals actually fight lol

[vale tangle]

Im not saying deino should be able to face rex
especially not on land
Deino should get absolutely demolished as it should on land
my point is that Stego is smaller than it yet can wipe them or at least die with leaving the deino with slivers of health

[stark knoll]

It's smaller in weight, but size isn't the only deciding factor in a fight

[dusky surge]

stego is still an apex with one of the strongest weapons in the game

[vale tangle]

That is a very good point

[dusky surge]

if we are to believe it can defend itself from animals like rex when it comes out, deino should also be an opponent it can dispatch of

[hasty coyote]

because stego is basically a glass cannon, made to defend itself from things like a rex. Thus by some basic logic:
stego>rex and rex>deino
thus, stego>rex>deino and stego>deino

[golden coral]

It can fight deino due to deinos main mechanic being the lunge, which means you have little "power" in normal fighting, while stego "only" has the normal fighting, the tail jab. If they did change how the lunge worked, it'd open more opportunities, but as it stands, the reason stego wins is because of lunge and the "lack" of damage otherwise (because otherwise why not just bite the target to death instead of using your lunge if you don't have to?).

[dusky surge]

i've seen how fast rex is. Stego isn't outrunning it, which means it needs to be capable of defending itself from one

[vale tangle]

I guess I wished for more versatility with Deino, only a handful of animals are gonna be 4T-, and some of them are already in the game
Also when I say 4T- I mean anything that doesnt just die instantly to being lunged like a dryo

[stark knoll]

Right now lunge does its job, but once we get animals in the 3-5 ton range a rework may become necessary

[golden coral]

There's a lot of things that'll be around or under 4T, and do keep in mind if it's just 4,5, you can still probably kill it with lunge damage + bite damage. As well as subs for all of the apexes.

[stark knoll]

Currently the only thing that falls in that range is sub stegos, and they pass that mark decently quickly

[vale tangle]

with how the lunge works now it 4.5 wouldnt work cause if you lunge something too big you get stunned longer than your opponent, although I guess that wouldnt be as detrimental if it was anything other than a stego which has crazy damage for its size because of its jab

[golden coral]

Deino can still grab 3-4T perfectly fine, it's only if it goes over 5T, but you could upsize deino to 10-12T, and upsize stego and acro to 7-8T so they're still out of lunge range, if deino for some reason needs greater hunting range.

[sick vine]

i said this before but imo deino should be left alone(other than stam drain while carrying on land) since deino's ability to actually get in range is the current environment which atm is extremely easy

gateway will have cleaner water

[golden coral]

You do, but you also do a lot of damage, which means if that target decides to fight, you can overpower it. You're not good at hunting it no, but you're capable of fighting it as it were.

[vale tangle]

You can actually pick up a stego 90% growth or below so they take a big to become invulnerable

[sick vine]

and is a big indirect nerf to deinos ability to kill things

[vale tangle]

Is lunge damage and bite damage seperate?

[golden coral]

70% from what I know.

[stark knoll]

The reason I bring up the "less than but close to 4T range" is because if that's your adult size, we're getting into real feels-bad-to-play-against territory

[golden coral]

Lunge has it's own damage, that was upped with this update at that.

[vale tangle]

I guess I cant read then I wish I had known that lol

[golden coral]

Fair, I can't imagine being about 4T and just dying outright to a deino, if that's what you mean. It's not really fun due to the lack of counterplay. Give quick movement that "cancels" a lunge please!

[stark knoll]

And also make quitting drinking/eating instant since I don't see a reason it shouldn't be

[sick vine]

^

[stark knoll]

I'd be fine with either a delay or a camera lock, having both doesn't feel good

Personally I'd prefer just the lock

[vale tangle]

I think its cause it would look unatural if your dino just jolted up after letting go of E

[golden coral]

Yes. I really want a "get up quick" alternative but for drinking/eating. Let it also "cancel" a lunge or pin (so you can react in time and thus get a way). Adjust anim for jump/step/turn, depending on size and all.

[hasty coyote]

we could do the same thing like with sitting, press a direction to immediately stop with a slight stam cost

[golden coral]

Add a movement alternative like that, and both camera lock and the normally slow stop is fine, since you have a stam draining way to just get moving real quick if you thnik you need to.

[sick vine]

just like how resting works

[golden coral]

That's the idea yes. Then you just adjust anim for the size. Dryo and similar does a little hop to get extra distance, allo and similar does a step aside, rex and larger just turns their side to it or something.

If there's something like that, you have a way to react if you think you heard or saw something

[hasty coyote]

though, with a global mechanic like that, you have to think of all the extra animations that need to be done. It would probably be better to change deino's lunge than change everything else.

[sick vine]

could just speed up the stop eating animation

[golden coral]

Fair, but if we change deino lunge to a grapple or something, it'd probably require it's own anims for different sizes and targets too

And there's a point in favour of adding eating/drinking reactions since they can apply to any situation, including maybe omni pin (though that one has its own issues), or just a quick reaction no matter where you're at eating or drinking. Whereas lunge is only for deino, for now at least.

[sonic flame]

I could see it for the sake of visual fidelity if the animal has a super distinct and clearly not good for moving pose while eating or drinking

Like how Stego rears up while eating tall plants, or in legacy, how Pue had to stance up to drink

Might look jank for them to suddenly pop into a super different pose in about 3 frames

[stark knoll]

Yea, that's the one big issue. Cutting the length will cause some jank in visuals

[sonic flame]

The movement lock could def be shortened a bit either way, but outright removal is probably off the cards to preserve visual fidelity

[hollow canyon]

@analog mirage Not that I disagree with the general promise of what you're trying to get across but I feel the numbers are off. Charge should deal less damage than that.

Bite should not be touched or maybe even buffed up so that you're incentivised to charge then bite, charge then bite and so on rather than just nuking targets with repeated charges.

Charge damage down to 100 if you ask me, maybe even 50, biteforce up to 200 or left as it is with no changes to the bite.

I don't think Carno needs a stamina buff relatively to the rest of the roster but it needs a stamina buff along with the rest of the roster - everything has too short of a runtime rn I believe.

It is especially prominent on Carno to the point where this animal is honestly not enjoyable to play even though it's quite obviously too strong right now. It goes hungry very fast while having an extremely poor stamina pool that it has to use up to move around.

The old idea of trots being the main means of travelling is a joke at this point. They are way too slowly to move you around the map. If you try to travel by trotting you're setting yourself up for either starving to death or losing your nutrients.

This isn't an issue that's exclusive to Carnotaurus but it's probably the most noticeable on it.

[analog mirage]

That is true, trots need to gain more stamina all around and globally creatures should use less stamina to run

The reason I say charge should still deal more damage is cause Carno should be encouraged for hit and run charge rather than spamming bites

[hollow canyon]

I don't think it's desirable for Carno be hit and running with charge

I think that's not a good plan for the gameplay on this animal

it's easier to pull off and less conditional

repeatedly charging your opponent to win is a bit easier than knocking them down so that you can bite them to death

I think Carno should still be about biting, the charge should merely make it easier for Carno to land the bites at all/land the bites without getting punished

e.g. if you try to bite a Tenonto just like that you should be eating a mouthful of its tail and a kick or two meanwhile if you charge it you should be free to land two bites and have to disengage afterwards

that's why I want Carno's charge to deal less damage so that Carno has to bite instead of just nuking things with the charge

[thin mantle]

@high moth You'd have to also remove deino from the game or downsize dramatically, stego is a necessary evil for keeping crocs in the water....if you played during U3...you already know this.
Also deino is simply a more problematic animal than stego, it has the same capacities as stego to be oppressive to anything smaller than it only it's invisible 90% of the time and can inhabit a resource that you're required to visit on all playables every 20-30 minutes...as opposed to stego which you're never forced to interact with and is easily spotted in all contexts.

I'm also baffled by any carnivore's growth being stunted by stegos interference....how is that even remotely possible

Deino's literally never engage them during growth, and carno's omnis and pteras have plentiful sources of food

Actually no lemme rephrase...stego is the most avoidable animal in the entire game...anything having it's gameplay severely impacted by them is doing several things wrong

[obtuse ocean]

Why not ? Carno should be devastating to smaller dinos, especially if they are out in the open. I dont think playing carno as a rex would be fun, if you need to sit and wait for an ambush that also means i need to be running in the outskirt/dense area so i dont get seen.

[thin mantle]

Ambush carno is awful, but carno dishwashing any open area with it's charge is also insanely lame to play as and against, needs to be more for utility than it is rn...like a massive damage nerf and CC reevalutation, because right now you can kill anything in the game that's smaller than you (accept for pachy) by tapping rmb, turn around, rinse repeat

It's astronomically boring for both parties

Like charge and ram being as good as they are rn have effectively removed teno from the roster

[obtuse ocean]

Off, gotta disagree with everyting you said here lol. I dont have problem with carnos unless im omni as i should. Teno i can fight back/play it smart. Its still a "problem" but im not free food. Pachy i have no "problem" with carno. Carno should be a problem to smaller dinos, carnos ability is only good vs small.

[high moth]

im on ure side to nerf deino as well. he has to mcuh stam atm . but tbh as long stego is here he doesnt need to be nerfed.

[thin mantle]

Oh, well then I'd love to know how you're avoiding a guaranteed double stun cuz rn you can't counter carno charge without a perfectly timed slam, and you'll still take damage and CC...against 2 carnos, no amount of herd numbers makes this manageable, 2 carnos charging the same teno can't be interrupted and they will stun it to death, no I don't have a problem with carno's steamrolling small omni groups in the open, yes I have issues with teno's needing to try astronomically harder against carnos to simply survive engagements with a near guaranteed loss of half your hp even if you played perfectly...

[high moth]

alot of times when my pack was starving and we finally found prey and kileld it or almost killed it a stego apears and is guarding the body. leaving us on low hp with no food and no time to find something else. it got better with the adition of more ai . but i feel liek there is only more ai in crowded areas if u hunt a bit more off teh road and soemthing liek this happening u ded. i starved quiet a few times cause of this.

[thin mantle]

AI spawn rates and calls rn don't permit even groups of up to 3 carnos from starving so I honestly can't sympathize, especially since you can cause the stego to leave by also leaving, and if that doesn't work...well...that sucks...this kind of behavior will literally always exist, whether it be from a rex, or a shant, or a trike, or an anky...or a deino

This isn't an issue, this is inevitable, either observe your hunting locations better or hunt smaller targets that don't attract as much attention

[obtuse ocean]

I was talking 1v1 here, 2v1 im prob a dead teno yes. But that sounds fair ? To be honest i dont actually know how big carno is compared to teno. You know the size diffrence ?

[high moth]

just saying what i experienced. dont play carno to much. i mostly play omni.

[thin mantle]

Well no I specified 2vX amount of tenos...charge is such a basic yet astronomically powerful mechanic that it essentially negates a numbers advantage...and again, the fact that a teno that plays perfectly will almost certainly walk away from a fight with a single carno sub 50% hp because charge can't be countered without a perfectly timed counterattack that will still result in a double stun is a massive issue

Also it requires a perfectly timed attack that only exists as a damage hitbox for a single frame from one animal....and it requires aiming in the general direction of your opponent and holding RMB for the other...this is laughably disproportionate

It's also even made funnier by how carno controls the engagement necessarily

[high moth]

i also think thats a big issue. there should be at least a kind of ai in water like boa that attcks the deino baby and is also able to kill it. like boa for omni juvs

[thin mantle]

It requires significantly more skill and timing to prevent your death from an animal that has complete authority over when you fight

[thin mantle]

No that would be titanically awful, I don't want any player to be subjected to randomly dying to the environment, which ironically is what deino sorta acts as for the rest of the roster...I just want water to be clearer so that deino can be perceived before it lunges you so that prey has a chance to counter it

[high moth]

i dont think so only having elite fish is boring for the gameplay as deino and having something that actually does dmg is needed in my opinion. when u think its awful then boa is also awful cause it can like 2 or 3 hit a juv ?

[neat forge]

Then u would take away the reason Deino is in the game

[thin mantle]

No, you'd make deino survivable, it currently isn't

You need to visit locations that literally negate it's existence to survive it, cuz encountering it means you've died

[obtuse ocean]

I see your point, and not saying your wrong. But i dont have much trouble with carnos as teno in dense areas. So much stuff i can use to my advantage. I wont be killing the carno unless he does a mistake tho. But faster dinos more or less controls the fight, omnis control the fight vs stego they choose where and when. You react to what they do, they dont need to react to you.

[high moth]

deino is the playable im dzing the least off. its mostly pachy and stego im dying to at encounter

[neat forge]

It shouldn't be for everything it can grab his purpose is to bring Horror aspects into the simple task of getting water

We already had a Bug where u could see Deinos in water so u had a 100% Chance of surviving it

[thin mantle]

I'd probably have to conclude that the carno's you're facing are exceptionally terrible, which makes sense given how spoonfed carno is rn, so the playerbase can be expected to be VERY bad....in testing and in game facing "better carnos", corroborated by a number of people both testing privately and playing the game as intended...the matchup cannot favor teno, which it demonstrably should given carno's speed and size advantage over it and teno's necessarily defensive semi stationary playstyle

[neat forge]

Yep so chose your drinking place carefully
Any attempt of trying to drink at an Hot Spot because ur very low should have a chance to die

[thin mantle]

"chance to die" in a permadeath survival game is fundamentally bad

[thin mantle]

Me too...cuz I know where these drinking spots are

[neat forge]

That's the literal reason we have Deino to die because u drank at an hot-spot

[high moth]

so its pretty much avoidable

[neat forge]

That's why it's called Survival

[high moth]

why has stego 1 hit attacks what doenst bother u then ?

[thin mantle]

No, this is a survival game, or should we also add lightning that has a random chance to kill any player on the map when it rains...or for players to spawn in with terminal illnesses, or for animals to take irl years to grow as opposed to a few hours, because "it's survival"

[thin mantle]

Because stego doesn't reside in a necessary resource, and also isn't invisible

Plus deino effectively has a higher damage cap of 4000 as opposed to stegos

[neat forge]

Dude is overreacting

[obtuse ocean]

Yea could be true, i have not played much carno after update so i might have a bad opinion. But i do agree, teno is not supose to be free food for carno in a 1v1.

[high moth]

can u rephrase that i dont really get it

[thin mantle]

Just applying the same standard you responded to me with...."survival" can be used to justify all of the mechanics I listed

[somber sphinx]

Survival shouldn’t be chance based if you want to drink

[golden coral]

You can't compare "RNG" death to a normal attack.

[somber sphinx]

You can see the stego, not deino

[thin mantle]

Nothing should be chance based in a game with significant consequences

[somber sphinx]

Exactly

[golden coral]

@neat forgeRNG in a survival game where it should be about skill and smarts, mechanical interactions and all that, is just bad. There's no reason or excuse for RNG.

[thin mantle]

Deino's maximum lunge size is 4tons, that effectively translates to 4k damage as hp and weight are directly correlated, giving it a higher damage ceiling that stego over 2 times over, 3 if you don't counter headshots

[golden coral]

Deino is just ... very badly designed, or the lunge is at the least. There's no counterplay, there's no real way to interact with the playable, aside from when you're a grown stego maybe, and even then that interaction isn't really meaningful either most of the time (deino fishing).

[high moth]

ok but we also already talkes about that drinking in hot spots is not a good idea and to die from a deino in a not hotspot is a really low chance. but i think a stego guarding bodys is a 100 % chance that ure pack gonne be at least 50% or less after teh fight for the body

[golden coral]

If it's a chance, it's inherently not very good. And the interactino with deino is terrible, because the only proper way to interact is to just not go to certain spot and only go to others. This does not make for good or engaging matchups.

[neat forge]

Then don't drink at a hotspot

U will never die to a Deino unless u are stupid enough to drink at an popular spot
Or u just unlucky to come across a Random Deino in the river

It's a Survival Game and on top a Simulator that Simulate Nature there is no fairness in you trying to drink and getting killed that's exactly how it's supposed to be

[thin mantle]

The consequences for a stego taking a body, and a deino oneshotting you are drastically different

[golden coral]

Do you not see how utterly bad that design is?

[somber sphinx]

The difference between deinos lunge and stegos attack is that you have to get close to stego do die, but you have to drink so you just die to the deinos

[high moth]

same for stego for me when ure not a stego to . avoid it or ure dead. its teh same logic for me tbh

[neat forge]

It is but its a Simulation its not intended to be fair or skill based in that part

[thin mantle]

You're trying to justify a fundamentally flawed mechanic by virtue of the medium it resides in with counters that only reduce the likelihood that you'll instantly die instead of actually preventing it

[golden coral]

Except you can, well, avoid a stego. You can see it, and move away from it. You can not do this with a deino in the water where you have to go drink. And deinos lunge does not have any form of real counter, while you can bait and juke a stego jab, like any other attack.

[golden coral]

It's not a simulation?

[obtuse ocean]

Well sorta, but deino "forces" me to walk/run to "safe" spots. It does make me walk around the map much more

[high moth]

bro dont drink NW river and dont drink center u have a 99 % not to die from deino

[thin mantle]

Yes it is....this has been stated by the devs, and by virtue of it being a game

[thin mantle]

I don't care, deino is horrendously designed regardless of how likely it is it'll kill you, it's only preventative counterplay relies on gambling

[neat forge]

Guys are just Toxic to randomly die to Nature in a Dino Simulator

[high moth]

i thik tzeh same about stego . something that has this much of hp shoudn be able to 1 shot 99% of teh roaster

[thin mantle]

Deino is literally the only animal that can kill you this way, and if criticizing a mechanical interaction in a video game is how you define toxic, I'd say the word has lost it's meaning

[somber sphinx]

Ah yeah “toxic” we don’t care if we die in a survival game but if we can’t do anything to escape it then there is a issue with it

[thin mantle]

Why? Stego is incredibly easy to spot, nothing has to go near it, and it's too slow to catch anything...it's not comparable to deino

[high moth]

guarding bodys is toxic for me .

[obtuse ocean]

If you could somewhat see the deino if you payed attention and you still got grabbed it should be no counterplay to it tho

[somber sphinx]

You can see stego, you can’t see deino. There’s a huge difference

[high moth]

avoiding hot spot same easy

[golden coral]

That's not the issue. The issue is the lack of interaction and counter in the lunge. You could have other reasons to move around, you had in legacy after all, no deino there.

[thin mantle]

This doesn't guarantee survival, it increases the odds that you won't instantly die, it doesn't remove them...these animals are not comparable

[somber sphinx]

There would still be deinos and you don’t seem too see the issue with it

[thin mantle]

It will literally always exist in this game, plus it's a herbivore trying to deprive it's main predators of their foodsource to reduce their numbers ideally, that's just smart

[neat forge]

This whole Deino Lunge needs counter play gives me the same Vibes of the Guys that are crying because the Stego is sitting on the corpse

[thin mantle]

They're fundamentally not comparable

[high moth]

liek i said b4 i also think deino is a bit op but i have mroe issues with stegos . ive seen 2 stegos kill 10+ crocs and all other carnivoir that thaught oh the stegos r low hp now .

[somber sphinx]

those are completely different things

[neat forge]

Uhu

[thin mantle]

Deino can currently solo stego, those deinos were literally not playing the game

[somber sphinx]

That’s a huge skill issue on the deinos part lmao

[golden coral]

If you can't see the difference there, that's on you. Also they've said they're going to do something about "corpse guarding" so there is that too.

[neat forge]

But it's the same?
There is no real counter play

[thin mantle]

Yes there is, find food elsewhere or fight off the corpse bully

[high moth]

its also skill issue to drink at hot spots in my opinion

[somber sphinx]

You can see the stego and you have to get close to die to it, with deino you actually have to get close to drink so you are dead

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but not sure a counterplay should be a thing if you get grabbed. It should be a chance if you pay attention to see or hear it. I doubt you gonna have much counterplay to a acro ambushing you if your lets say cera.

[golden coral]

There's no counterplay mechanically to the lunge, a specific attack. Every other attack you can somewhat react to, manuever around, or otherwise bait or juke or so on. Lunge, you literally can not, if it's there, unless it messes up, you die.

[somber sphinx]

Lmao ok

[thin mantle]

Water clarity or dodge mechanics

[neat forge]

Nice thank you you said it

Then let's compare this sentence to deino

Find Water Elsewhere??

My work here is done

[somber sphinx]

Deinos are still there:

[golden coral]

Yes. If you do get grabbed, there should be no counterplay, there should however be counterplay to avoid being grabbed. Such as a "quick move" or something that takes you out of range, or "cancels" the lunge if you react in time, or similar.

[high moth]

i literly never died from drinking in this game expect the first weak of u3 release

[obtuse ocean]

Ahh yes

[golden coral]

You still don't get it. You can not compare a mechanic and it's interaction to something else.

[keen plover]

💀 This is pointless

[thin mantle]

Deinos can still be there, also the consequence gab for these two actions is titanic....one deprives you of a kill...the other turns you into one...and AI is PLENTIFUL

[somber sphinx]

Also you don’t seem to see the issue with deino, you can see stego and can actually get away from it, you can’t with deino

[golden coral]

You can potentially see the acro ambushing you, similar with others. You can not, right now, see a deino. That's the difference there.

[keen plover]

They're just arguing just to argue. Apparently common sense doesn't apply here

[high moth]

ye we will not get on 1 point i think

[neat forge]

https://tenor.com/view/pirómano-meme-jeje-odio-bomberos-gif-15722930

[obtuse ocean]

True, but i remember that bug where you could see deinos. That was so easy to avoid em lol

[keen plover]

"Avoid hotspots" Implying that deino won't exist in any other place

[thin mantle]

The smugness is so ironic

[golden coral]

Common sense is not that common :p

[keen plover]

💀

[thin mantle]

It's like handwaving carno being imbalanced with "just don't go in plains" as basically any animal

[golden coral]

It's not even that, it's the whole lack of mechanicl interactions and counter that's the real issue. That's what makes lunge and deino so "bad" to play against.

[high moth]

avoid stego. implying they not interfere every hunt and guard every body they see on map

[thin mantle]

There aren't physically enough stego players to do that...

[keen plover]

Thinking they're any bit the same says a lot 💀

[golden coral]

Also you can kind of see the stego. Don't make a kill near it, could be an argument. Just like you can make the argument of don't make a kill near the shoreline, because deino will steal it.

[somber sphinx]

https://tenor.com/view/elden-ring-frenzy-madness-balrick-gif-25041201

[golden coral]

But those are not the same as the issues with lunge and deino itself.

[thin mantle]

"Pachy dumpsters teno and counterplay for this basically doesn't exist because of how stuns work"

"Just avoid pachies"

[golden coral]

I don't think anyone complains about deino coming up on the shoreline to steal a kill, they will do that, they can do that. That's fine, and not the same issue as the lunge/interaction.

[somber sphinx]

Omni pounces you? Just avoid it

[neat forge]

Yeah because
But idk if you ever realised that but most of the time there is Muddy water around the Deino
So u can't see it good job sherlock

[high moth]

not respecting other opinions and saying says alot says alot

[thin mantle]

Well...it CAN be an issue....which is why we have stego ironically

[somber sphinx]

Then make the water more clear, simple fix and give back the waves deino made

[keen plover]

The opinion is wrong. They're not comparable. It's actually amazing you think they're similar

[high moth]

i on my end can at least say that i try to understand u guys and also confirm that i think both r op

opinion is wrong ^^ok thanks for the chat

[keen plover]

🫡

[thin mantle]

When your opinion is regarding objective and observable engagements in game, I can't see how it'd be respectful to simply agree with you if I genuinely don't. I have more respect for you inherently to respond with a counter than to placate you

[golden coral]

If we had water clarity, more visibiltiy and notice if there is a deino in there getting ready to act, and a quick movement or otherwise ability to "cancel/parry" a lunge and similar, then you'd have a case. Because then you can actually do something gamewise/playwise to counter the deino attack. Just like you can see a carno charge and juke it, or bait a teno tailslam, or a pachy ram even.

[thin mantle]

And make those waves appear at greater depths

[high moth]

i was speaking about my experience i see every time i turn on the game

[somber sphinx]

Indeed, especially when fast swimming

[thin mantle]

Because deino is a rex sized log

[neat forge]

It shouldn't have waves when it underwater just when parts of its body are looking out so u can't at least see waves when it goes down to spy on you and that's allready enough counter play to not die to it

[somber sphinx]

https://tenor.com/view/alligator-see-you-later-gif-15611461

[thin mantle]

Well...yes...and your experience regards objective information, hence the counter. If you just said "I like deino" or "I like stego" there would be no counter, how could I, that's your preference. But stego or deino being OP is measurable, hence the discussion

[somber sphinx]

It should have, especially when fast swimming making it have to swim slower trying not to create any waves

[thin mantle]

Even a hippo makes noticeable waves a foot or two beneath the surface of the water...deino is several times your average hippo's size

[high moth]

loll ok where i said i like ?

[thin mantle]

you didn't, I specifically noted that you didn't

[high moth]

okok sometimes my eng goes bad in understanding xD

sry

[thin mantle]

I gotcha, language barriers can be rough

[dusky surge]

rex is released
is faster in every way to a stego
outdamages stego
has more health than stego

i guarantee you, in this situation, people would still claim "just avoid the rex" or "group up lol"

[golden coral]

Group up is an argument I've seen. "Just get a herd" :p

[somber sphinx]

Plant eaters needs herds to be viable

[thin mantle]

Rex would basically be what current pachy is to teno, only worse, if it had that stat balance....just wait for the rex power fantasy enjoyers to come out saying it's fine

[thin mantle]

"eat grass and die"

[dusky surge]

however, if the stego won, it'd be literal pandemonium. How DARE stego beat the mighty rex consistently!

[keen plover]

Stego should beat rex though 😄

[thin mantle]

When stego would logistically 1 tap a rex if it hit 1 of several locations on it's body.....LOGISTICALLY.....
But no "rex had an INSANE bf so it should deal over 1k per basic bite"

[neat forge]

Sounds fair

Or should a Raptor be able to kill a Rex like in legacy

[thin mantle]

Arguing with logistics against logistics

[dusky surge]

wh-

what

[thin mantle]

[dusky surge]

what brought you to that

i never once mentioned raptor

[thin mantle]

Imbalanced rex kills stego = Legacy utah kills rex

[dusky surge]

how are stego or raptor remotely even comparable

[thin mantle]

Mhm...yep

[golden coral]

Oh yes, I am quite sure that if stego gets a proper fighting chance vs rex and giga, we'd see a great amount of the "but tiny weak head" argument.

[thin mantle]

Just counter with "but giant muscular spike tail"

[dusky surge]

people don't like playing teno too much because it's a specific playstyle for extremely competent combat players, rather than an "RMB = win" playable like carno, pachy, so lots of people really don't care if it gets dumpstered atm, because it has a smaller fanbase

[golden coral]

I did show you that comment, didn't I? Let's see if I can find it.

[thin mantle]

Teno being fodder is basically the only reason I don't actually play the game rn outside of testing...it's the only animal I find entertaining

[thin mantle]

I don't think so

[dusky surge]

worst part is, teno isn't even statistically bad

[neat forge]

It was a Example u gigabrain Because u are all crying of skill based stuff when there is stuff that needs to be unbalanced
That's how Nature works and this game wants to come close to it

If everything can fight anything just because it know how to play

[thin mantle]

Just gets hard countered by mechanics

[golden coral]

I like teno a lot, I just happen to love stego, so it's my go to choice. But if stego and kentro weren't a thing, I'd be a teno main like before.

[dusky surge]

?????????

baffled

[thin mantle]

Nothing needs to be unbalanced, imbalance is an objectively poor state for a game to be in...hence why the term exists at all

[keen plover]

Video game.

Nature works, when these things were never alive during the same time period. What even?

[obtuse ocean]

But you can make it unbalanced, with using skill : P

[thin mantle]

Also nature doesn't translate well to gameplay sometimes...there are some species that survive simply through reproduction rates...gameplay wise that would be awful

[thin mantle]

Balance accounts for skill ceiling's and floors...

[digital oak]

Whatever you can't kill, you should be able to run from, whatever you can kill, do your best to kill it.

[thin mantle]

If a single exceptional omni is able to kill your average stego...that may be indicative of a balance issue

[keen plover]

Generally that and using parts of the map you're better in to avoid risks

Like deino with water

[thin mantle]

Or more specifically, whatever you can't fight or defend against, you need to have an avoidance method or playstyle

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but if your rex and im allo and you manage to sneak up on me. Thats gonna be unbalance for me when you attack : P

[thin mantle]

Like herrara doesn't necessarily NEED to outrun omni if it can climb away from it

[digital oak]

btw, 75% pachy is super op, it's faster than an adult utah and can still break limbs, just has less health and bleed

[thin mantle]

Well for one, mixpacking is an aspect of balance that needs to be addressed...so that's bad...that doesn't need to be countered...
And secondly, the availability of a numbers advantage is also an element of balance, how many juvis are reaching adult, how volatile those adults can be...and EVEN THEN...I'd argue most animals should be capable of surviving an engagement with a significant numbers advantage

[keen plover]

Can be pinned and the charge can be avoided tbf

[thin mantle]

Uhhh....charge can't be dodge rn

By anything

[golden coral]

What? No, we're "crying", or I am, because I want more skillbased stuff in the deino/lunge interaction. Which you for some reason seem to not care for.

[keen plover]

Pachy charge?

[thin mantle]

It outturns dryo dodge rn

[thin mantle]

Oh I just call that ram for the sake of efficiency, charge is a "carno word" to me

[high moth]

bucking shoudl be a think at lunge mechanic

[keen plover]

Gotcha

[thin mantle]

It sorta loses it's utility if you can escape it with a button press...just needs to be more avoidable, intuitively

Like water clarity, ripples, shore depth...etc

Wouldn't it be neat if the only ambush predator the game has actually had to try to be stealthy?

[mellow zenith]

would love a "crouch" swimming mode for deino tbh

[high moth]

if u everytime see croc and he doesnt get to lunge woudn it kill also the machanic

[obtuse ocean]

So numbers over skill ? Sounds like a really bad balance

[thin mantle]

No, the mechanic would just prey on people not paying attention, it's not complex enough to allow anything else

[thin mantle]

No, actually I specifically said that I want every animal to have ways of circumventing numbers

Meaning skill > Numbers

[golden coral]

To be fair, deino should probably have a very high failure rate on hunts, especially as it's mechanic is much less reliant on stats than most others.

[obtuse ocean]

Ahh yes, then we agree.

[thin mantle]

Deino should have the highest failure rate of any predator in the game with the hunting mechanic it has

[high moth]

hm i think at current state of the game not manz peopel ambush lung anyway cause like we know hotspots no one drink i mostly just see peopel lung on land and ran water .

[keen plover]

Depends on the numbers tbf

Sometimes, you get overwhelmed

[thin mantle]

That in and of itself is a balance issue, groups of creatures with engagement authority becoming large enough to entirely negate a skill gap

[obtuse ocean]

Yea ofcourse, im gonna be running if im 1 allo and i see 2 allos etc.

[thin mantle]

But heres the thing

That's still balanced, you can run

In this game the ability to survive is what defines balance, hence why ptera is the most viable animal next to deino

[keen plover]

Meant it more like there's 6 omnis and you're a solo teno. Depending on location, you can get away, but in an open field or something, you just die

[thin mantle]

Nothing besides pteras can kill pteras...and even that is VERY difficult

[high moth]

all mighty ptera

[obtuse ocean]

Yea true

[thin mantle]

That'd be a matter of positioning...and the omnis would still have a period of time where they have to bring the teno down, they don't just instantly steamroll it, which can give the teno time to find those circumstances that enable survival....

Emphasis on "can", some poor positioning just leads to death

But I'd want that to be rare

And entirely intuitive

[keen plover]

Tbf, omnis can in the open end the fight pretty quickly, but likewise, you can retaliate and take a few of them

[thin mantle]

Mhm..and again we're discussing the difference between very difficult and impossible...even in U5 I managed to fight off or kill packs of 4-6 omnis on my own as a teno...because teno is the animal I demonstrably spend the most time playing and I practice privately a lot, so again it's POSSIBLE but most of those times I either almost died or died after they did

[obtuse ocean]

Or they mixpack and you can just click the quit button : P

[thin mantle]

Yeah or they bring a carno or pachy and you just die

Not even, just sit back and let them do all the work

[obtuse ocean]

Nah, im not gonna entertain them : P

[keen plover]

Agreed on that point

Tbf, I dislike the premise of numbers just giving you no chance, but sometimes, there's just no way around it. You messed up by playing solo against 8 omnis. I wouldn't want this for all playables and hopefully they have a counter whether it be an area these packing creatures can't go to, or simply the size / power to kill them all.

[obtuse ocean]

If you push quit button, you dissapear or will it be a body in game ?

[keen plover]

Body will still be in game

[obtuse ocean]

darn it : P

[keen plover]

5 minutes

[obtuse ocean]

Ofcourse its a good thing, if not 99% would quit when they realised they lost

[thin mantle]

Well...ideally the teno would be playing near water...which it can swim away with...that's sorta my idea behind most if not all playables having ways to mitigate or negate numbers...granted this isn't viable rn since deino exists...

But that's it's own imbalance that needs addressing

[keen plover]

I love using water sources but DEINOS AGFDHXBVVNVBNC

[thin mantle]

Wouldn't you just love it if water lightning wasn't a think...would be neat

[keen plover]

What's the point of swimming fast and for long periods of time.... WHEN DEINO EXISTS

[thin mantle]

Why even drink...just die

It's still better than feeding a deino

[obtuse ocean]

New map is bigger lakes, rivers etc

[thin mantle]

More isolated water sources and shallow water too

[keen plover]

Lakes will be nice. I hope they up the water clarity by the shallow parts

[thin mantle]

and bridges

[obtuse ocean]

No way im gonna following something in the water if they swim twice as fast

[thin mantle]

They have.... :D

[keen plover]

Cause on gateway, even the shallow parts are a bit too dark

If you look closely, yeah you can see the bottom, but it's kind of obscured

[high moth]

hmm even when we trz to be objective i see how every one is hard influenced y the dinos he plays here . >D

[keen plover]

The shader for water makes it tough

[thin mantle]

They are still a bit too dark admittedly

Better than crude oil but still barely functional as a fix

[keen plover]

Yeah. Don't get me wrong, you can see the bottom, but it isn't anything close to the oceans shallow parts

[thin mantle]

And even then the ocean is weird

Ocean clarity is great, but it hard cuts off at a certain depth

And I mean...HARD

[obtuse ocean]

No way im gonna get killed by a deino if i can see that clearly , im already on high alert when i drink

[keen plover]

I hope they make it where Deino can't access Lakes. So other semi aquatics can exist there

Like Bary

[thin mantle]

That's basically a foot deep, doesn't give you enough time to react still...but if the water is that shallow then we're good

[keen plover]

tbf, the only times people got caught on gateway (at the shallow parts) was when a sub deino came running in

[thin mantle]

I just kinda wish deino wasn't a think so semi aquatic ecosystems could...exist

Or at the very least...lunge just being ineffective against them

[high moth]

u guys played gateway?

[thin mantle]

Cuz lunge is the actual problem

[keen plover]

I have

[high moth]

oh wow how come ?

[thin mantle]

testing team

[keen plover]

Yeah ^

[high moth]

oh nice im happy for ya

u had a chance to play troodon ?

[obtuse ocean]

You shouldt be able to react, if you can see it. Its GG then

[keen plover]

It's confirmed to be in QA, so no

[thin mantle]

Well...you should...hence the issue of it oneshotting you without counterplay

[obtuse ocean]

Is not if you can see it, thats the counterplay

[thin mantle]

Oh if you can see it long before it hits sure

[keen plover]

The shallow part of the Gateway lake is actually very long

[high moth]

ah i thought that would be part of testin team xD

[thin mantle]

Hopefully it doesn't get...drained

[keen plover]

💀 If so, I've given up

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/kyungsoo-exo-guessilldie-gues-ill-die-i-dont-know-gif-13548418

[obtuse ocean]

If a deino spends tons of time waiting for something to drink while not making sounds, and whatever comes down to drink can see in the water if it pays attention. But you still get grabbed, thats 100% deserved kill from deino i think.

[keen plover]

I wish we had troodon, but maybe in the future. Who knows

[thin mantle]

Sure

[keen plover]

🥹 I hope it never happens

[thin mantle]

Flashbacks to shallows

[keen plover]

Fun times

Even with shallows, deinos still thrived

[thin mantle]

Ironically...true

Still probably the most played animal at the time

[keen plover]

It was. Since it came out, I don't think that's ever changed

[thin mantle]

Only during oasis

[keen plover]

Yeah, but even then. It was still like top 2-3

[thin mantle]

Oh surely

Top 3 were probably pachy teno deino

Then carno

[keen plover]

Yeah

[high moth]

any tips for teno growing one rn and dont have much exp w it

[keen plover]

Isle players tend to always pick the largest class. Which sadly is also some of the easiest stuff to grow

[thin mantle]

Find a cliff, jump off, choose pachy

You won't enjoy it rn

[high moth]

xD

[thin mantle]

I love teno but the only thing that won't curbstomp you rn is omni

[high moth]

i love small and mid tiers. my most picked r omni ptera pachy. cnat wait for trodon i think it will be hella fun

[keen plover]

Or spawn south, go to the old oasis mudpool, follow the path west and there should be 2 of your diets there

[keen plover]

I love playing smalls / mids as well

[thin mantle]

Thanks for doing what I wouldn't

[keen plover]

Smalls / mids are the best things in the game

[thin mantle]

The only apexes that excites me are shant anky and brachi

[obtuse ocean]

They are, but its hard solo as i like to play. So im forced to play something bigger so i can actually defend myself lol

[keen plover]

Trike for me. Solo apex that can somewhat move and eats grass lmao

[high moth]

quetz for me if u consider that as apex of sky xD

[thin mantle]

You basically described shant for me xD

[thin mantle]

Quetz scares me from a balancing standpoint

[keen plover]

Carno is good mid tier to play solo tbf

[thin mantle]

The likelihood of them makin it way too strong is very high

[high moth]

ye i see the complain tsumani already 😄

[obtuse ocean]

I hope anky can walk up to a pack of allos and say hello and goodbye and noone does anything : P

[mellow zenith]

The funny thing is that by knowing hotspot and drinking mostly on safe drink spot (resulting in less opportunity), the deino should rely on cannibalism more BUT it doesn't happened that much. Because human mind

[obtuse ocean]

Yea for now, but im talking when more playables etc : P

[keen plover]

Yeah, but Shant is a bit too large for me. I kind of want to be challenged by packs, while still dominating rexes in a 1 v 1

[thin mantle]

I just hope anky is basically the other end of the ptera scale....it basically can't be killed at full size but is a threat to nothing

[frail bobcat]

"howdy lads" niche

[high moth]

i think only way to balnace him is to make his bite not to strong and make him stamina lak luster

[obtuse ocean]

lol yea

[keen plover]

Yeah, A lot of Isle players hate cannibalism as well.

[thin mantle]

Apexes only appeal to me for their capacity to be untouchable....hence my choices xD

[keen plover]

So you get inflated numbers based purely on that fact

[thin mantle]

I'd just make it so they have to be on land to attack

[keen plover]

Allo / alberto 🫡

[obtuse ocean]

Exactly, i mean i can still die. But thats not gonna be free food : P

[thin mantle]

Which is ironic considering how popular realism arguments are in this community when cannibalism irl is VERY common

[thin mantle]

Yeah and only by a select few things

[high moth]

pfuu i think thats to much tbh. but im also verry influence by ptera i just love ptera and wish for a pick up move for small dinosaurs

[mellow zenith]

agreed

[keen plover]

Fair. I want the ability to be semi - untouchable while still being untouchable to all those rex players 👍

[frail bobcat]

Airieal (how do you write this crap again) lunge

[obtuse ocean]

Yea they can work 😛 I hope cherius gonna be good solo tho.

[keen plover]

Pretty much realism until we don't like it

[high moth]

ye i dotn mind cannis to mcuh even i dont do it

[high moth]

tolerance pardox

[thin mantle]

It's what's made the conversation about locked cams so awkward to me...it's praise is primarily around realism and risk....when it's basically just another chance based death mechanic that disregards the fact that 99% of our animals have side mounted vision

But yeah realism amirite

[keen plover]

Camera locking + the audio currently being scuffed + current pachy & carno is horrific

[thin mantle]

Gotta love being turned into paste by the silent invisible battering ram duo

[keen plover]

I got ambushed by a stego because the audio didn't play

💀

[high moth]

i just cant stand mixpacking ( herbys and carnis both is lame 4 me but thats a topic i dont want to open again xD )

[keen plover]

Ever since that, I've just picked up pieces of food and have set my paranoia to 10000

Great gameplay ✅

[high moth]

in general i tollerate evrything cause there no rules so

[keen plover]

Yeah not much you can do

Just got to accept it, even if it makes the game unbalanced

[thin mantle]

I just play ptera
Games just gotten too annoying for me

[keen plover]

I've already had a few rants I guess about locked camera, so I won't

but damn 💀

[thin mantle]

Oh believe me...I sympathize

I literally don't see any value in it

[keen plover]

Same... Anyways, gotta go. Peace guys

[thin mantle]

Cya bird

[high moth]

cya

[obtuse ocean]

Thats cus we are balancing the game around a few playable that interact with each others, if we threw in 10 new dinos today. People could be asking for pachy buff now.

[stone garden]

Throw 10 new dinos in, I'd rather play them while being balanced..

Allo FTW

[golden coral]

If they had a bunch of them to just throw in, they probably would.

But we're not there yet, and we're still lacking more important things than just new playables at that.

[stone garden]

I can't argue that, don't balance anything until elders/perks is released. Just going to require rebalancing.

[golden coral]

@random stumpWhat good would it do?

[random stump]

it would, at the very least, allow babies to avoid those that they SHOULD'VE been able to trust, and lead to at least a few less angry players after getting cannibalized when they shouldn't have needed to expect it

[slim dragon]

But most people who kill their own as utahs don't eat them afterwards

[random stump]

ok but at least a few do

[golden coral]

Anyone that intends to keep killing would just not eat any. Not sure it would make a difference.

[slim dragon]

It would punish people who got no choice but to eat the meat of one of their own kind (who are already being punished by doing so) more than it would punish those who kill their own for fun

[random stump]

ig so

[hollow canyon]

The vast majority of Utah players that end up eating their brethren do it by mistake. They see some meat because it's marked on the compass and start munching it. You'd effectively have those people marked as cannibals while the true perpetrators who killed other animals of their kind just got to walk away with nothing to worry about.

And if you ask how I know that - it's because there's regularly someone on this discord who's asking: "hey why do I have muscle spasms etc?" and then it turns out that they must've eaten something that was another Utah without them realising what they were chomping on.

[random stump]

what if your own kinds corpses (including organs and meat chunks) was marked with a skull of your species, so that you knew not to eat it

[hollow canyon]

That would be quite helpful regardless of whether your suggestion is introduced or not

[dusky surge]

@silent ruin i dont think teno needs a buff as much as carno and pachy need a serious looking at

[silent ruin]

I agree. Teno is in a good spot where it is but I honestly don't see why a single teno can't defend itself against multiple pachys or even one for that matter. Your left with a stun a break and your out of Stam rendering teno completely helpless against pachy. It's especially ridiculous when you look at teno being a defensive stance fighter yet not being able to defend whatsoever. Yet pachy can use its defense as an offense more effectively then teno yet still has the upper hand. Like who the hell balanced that lmao

[dusky surge]

oh, 100% agreed, but i dont think teno needs a buff, the pachy needs to be tuned way down

carno too

i like teno as-is

shining beautiful pillar of good balance

[silent ruin]

Yea I probably should rephrase my suggestion lol

[humble heart]

Unfortuantely if you nerf pachys offense it becomes useless on defense then useless overall, which makes it really hard to balance it. Carno will be a bit easier since it has different defense from offense

[mellow zenith]

@alpine plover Deino hunger is fine, if you die of starvation its pretty much on you. And for the part about not wanting to eat smaller deino (its my take) maybe deino isn't for you.
I know that isla Spiro river system is bad for deino but younger deino can EASILY avoid bigger one by running on land. That playable is a cannibal and its pack limit is two, TWO. You don't want to attack other deino ? fine, go away but please don't add to the megapack mentality

[alpine plover]

megapack mentality ? first of all, i play alone, maybe i failed trying to explain good enough what i think it could be interesting, more realistic, and not adding any bad experience at all to the game, as i see it, of course. I understand the cannibal role and i respect it, i know the bigger crocs are avoidable and dont have any problem at all with that, but the food bar decay speed is just ridiculous. In fact it should be faster when the croc is younger.

[slim dragon]

Deino has the slowest hunger drain of any playable

[alpine plover]

100% mature ? are you really sure of this ?

i know the time is relative but doesnt feel like that at all

[hasty coyote]

It has like an hour and a half of hunger iirc, meanwhile carno has 45 mins and Omni has 1 hour.

Though, if you’re not cannibalizing and just eating fish, you aren’t filling your hunger much. So that could also be the reason.

[slim dragon]

yes

[hollow canyon]

yes, it was the first animal in the game with the hunger drain that slow, all the others were getting hungry 15 minutes faster until Utah was buffed up to last just as long as year for... some reason.

[slim dragon]

Omni's hunger buff was added when it became a bleeder and needed to go on for 45min+ long hunts

[hollow canyon]

No, it was added looooong time after that

specifically when pounce was broken

it was one in a series of buffs that Omni received at the time

[alpine plover]

only 50 hours atm here so, maybe you are right but i dont feel like that hunger drain is right or realistic on that kind of dinosaur

[hollow canyon]

No hunger drain is realistic by any means, most predators including theropods can go on for a rather long time without making a kill, but that just doesn't work for the gameplay

if you had a very slow hunger drain you'd just eat once and grow to almost full adult allowing for almost all out afk growth

also - there are nutrients in the game

and hunger drain being slower without a slower nutrient drain would be a serious downside since you would be unable to keep the nutrients up, on the other hand having slower nutrient drain would be a very serious buff

since again - way more afking and way easier time growing

admittedly one thing that could be done to fix this is to make it work like in legacy where young animals have to eat much more often than adults but this could encourage megapacking

which isn't meant to be a thing and besides Deino's are meant to be encouraged to kill other Deinos

since they are the only thing that can effectively kill Deinos

[neon willow]

That might change when other aquatic predators are added (bary, spino, etc) and I'm kinda hoping deino gets to be a little more generically opportunistic (being able to eat almost anything for some kind of nutrients, but the efficiency strongly depending on diet) as opposed to strongly favoring cannibalism because of the nutrient, providing a lot of food, and generally being contained/predictable.

[hollow canyon]

It won't really ever change Deino was always intended to be a cannibal and since it's a cannibal - it's getting nutrients for eating its own kind. You might have less of a reason to kill other crocs when they don't constitute half the server you're on but it will never be discouraged per se.

Besides to be perfectly honest getting away from an adult Deino isn't particularly difficult right now.

It kind of depends on your growth stage but a fully grown Deino is really just kind of bad compared to its younger counterparts so it's not that much of an issue unless you don't notice the big guy that's coming at you.

[dusky surge]

not true. both pachy's offence and defence are broken as-is, so nerfing them would not make it useless. Also, all I want is to reduce its capability against animals significantly larger than it, not against stuff like omni

[sick vine]

i think only making pachys stun larger animals if they actually break a bone would fix the main issue with pachy

[hasty coyote]

I think they are saying that pachy's strong offense is its defense. Say we nerf its offense by removing the ability to ram things over 2x its size at all, which would solve the problem of bullying things too big. However, that would then cause the issue of pachy being unable to defend itself since it relies on fighting to break and run. So balancing it is a bit of a tightrope where you don't want to make it strong enough to bully big things to death, but still be strong enough to ward off a big threat.

[dusky surge]

thats why you let it stagger on fracture, allowing a safe hit

a leg fracture is a guaranteed escape, a body fracture allows you to easily out-endure your target and a head fracture reduces their ability to keep track of you and hit you

[hasty coyote]

that is one way of doing it, but I have also heard another idea on top that allows pachy groups to still be a lethal threat while solo or duo are not much of one. Only doing stuns on fracture makes pachy groups non-lethal to carnos, so a pachy group can easily just be terrorized by the same carno repeatedly since it has no threat of actually dying. However, allowing pachy to still stun on headshots no matter what could make it lethal if the threat decides to pursue or walked into too massive of a group. Since it is quite easy to protect your head from 1 to maybe 3 pachies, you can just juke the headshot, not get stunned, then trade a hit back. It also helps with the teno matchup since it can just face its rear weaponry, tank the body hit, then 1-shot the pachy with tail slam and kick, or even just 2 kicks.

[dusky surge]

i just dont really see WHY we need this level of lethality

[vagrant coyote]

I have an idea

What if we keep pachy about the same, intil it meets something about 2x its size. Then whenever it charges, it does ever so slightly reduced damage and a litte bit of self damage

[hasty coyote]

as I said, otherwise carno has literally nothing to fear of pachies. "Why not charge head first into 8 of them alone? Its not like they can kill me." and then after it uns off and heals, "why not do it again? They still can't kill me."

[vagrant coyote]

Not enough to be worrying with 2 or 3 hits, but enough to where if you tried to kill whatever you were hitting, it'd start to add up

[dusky surge]

i really dislike that idea, punishing pachy for an engagement it HAS to take at times barely seems fair

[vagrant coyote]

The idea for me was to incentivise breaking all of its leg bones then booking it

[hasty coyote]

same, it would have to basically deal 10th of pachy's hp to make it an actual worry

[dusky surge]

just don't allow it to stagger animals 2x its size or above

make the stagger happen with the fracture

[vagrant coyote]

Solid idea

I love that actually

[hasty coyote]

still, punishing pachy for doing the thing its forced to do does not sound right, especially when it would need to take like 10% of its hp in damage to make it fear trying to kill thing

[vagrant coyote]

Not 10%

That's waaay too much

Something like 3-5% per hit

[hasty coyote]

it can kill teno in 13 hits or less with headshots

if you make it any less, then the pachy just doesnt have to care

[dusky surge]

yea, then it just goes unpunished for being a teno killer

the recoil would be annoying, but that's it