balance-feedback-discussion

[hardy dirge]

Moral of the story, I'd rather pounce longer but do less damage to my opponent opposed to shorter pounce with an insane amount of damage.

It just feels more engaging to me.

[golden coral]

Fair enough. I feel that the earlier bucking was more or less outright usless, if not even actively detrimental to the user, so I'm glad it's a viable counter now at least.

[frail bobcat]

nah long pounces are boring

buts its your opinion

[hardy dirge]

I mean same could be said about running around waiting to ankle bite or pounce again. I'm sure there's a fine line somewhere.

[golden coral]

I do suspect that if we had longer pounces, but less lethality, people would complain that "I pounce for so long and it does nothing" instead :p

[hardy dirge]

Good point. Just gotta find a middle ground. But that doesn't seem to be their specialty.

[golden coral]

No, it does seem like balance tends to go this way or that rather than being, well, balanced xD

[hardy dirge]

Also there was literally a time where you would briefly start bucking then it would stop and you just had to take the beating. That was the worst. Bucking was fine as it was until it broke in my opinion.

[golden coral]

I think it's more that if you're actively running around, baiting, and so on, you're doing stuff, which the target can also attempt to respond to and interact with.

As opposed to pounce, hold E for buck, rinse and repeat.

[hardy dirge]

Also I say this when I spend 90% of my time as Tenonto or Pachy.

[golden coral]

That still happens far as I know. There's some kind of buck cooldown or something.

[hardy dirge]

Which is funny how I'm complaining about the bane of my existence as those creatures.

Interesting

I had no idea it was a cool down.

[golden coral]

To be fair, pachy buck was pretty good even earlier, it was the bleeding that was the issue.

[hardy dirge]

But there have been times where the initial pounce wouldn't allow me to buck.

[golden coral]

I think pachy is the only one that didnt get the improved bucking.

[hardy dirge]

Pachy is the real deal right now. I think it's in a pretty great spot.

All it needed was better bleed resistance

[golden coral]

I think pounce also stops the bucking, but not sure honestly. As in, inpact of a pounce breaks it off.

[hardy dirge]

Like before I would look at how thick and pebbly it's skin is and not understand why it dies to a paper cut

[golden coral]

Just needs to lose its CC on larger things xD Poor teno, even carno suffers at times.

[hardy dirge]

Yeah if you get fractured as a Teno you're boned.

Teno and Carno are in an okay spot, but the Carno is a bit too favored with it's new charge upgrades. Kinda doesn't feel like an ambush predator. But really, when did it ever?

[golden coral]

Well, that's good, because it never was designed well as an ambush predator, nor should it be one. That entire concept does not mesh with what the carno hunts, much less where it hunts.

[golden coral]

Poor teno! Pachys are scarier than carnos xD

[hardy dirge]

Yeah I've actually been pretty good againt solo carnos but solo Pachys have been more of a struggle somehow. They are easy to kill once you stun them but if you get fractured before then...

[golden coral]

Fracture + the continued "stun" on every impact.

Not ideal, since the moment they've fractured your leg, you're going nowhere.

[hardy dirge]

My only issue with Tenontosaurus, which, has bothered me since it happened, is that the kick deals more damage. It just makes the tail slam feel kind of a burden to stamina.

Yeah if they remove your running privileges you just have to accept it.

[golden coral]

Well, before people just spammed the tail, since using the kick was no point. So there's a reason kick does more damage now, so you need to use the tail for range and better ability to land CC, and then finish things off with kick.

Meanwhile claw is good for bleeding from what I know. So is kick but well, it's in the rear so less good on offense, though it's still doable.

[hardy dirge]

That makes sense. It's not a big deal to me, I do think the kick should be viable, but it feels like it should be used against smaller assailants, not larger ones.

Idk it just looks a bit weird to slam something, then run up next to it to start kicking it

But I honestly don't know how they could work around it at this point

On a side note, they never fixed the kick and claw attack sounds for tenonto. It still plays the sub adult attack sounds when grown. Guess I should file that out as a bug report.

[golden coral]

True, it does. But I understand why they did it, and it does add to being able to have some form of skill for the teno, unlike most playables. With all the attacks being suited for different circumstances and targets, you have to know what you're doing or you'll not last long at all.

Teno is well designed compared to most of the roster, we need a bit more of that I'd say.

[golden coral]

Please do!

[hardy dirge]

Yeah I agree. And I will. Kinda tired of hearing wimpy attack sounds. Sounded a lot more fierce before.

[ashen frigate]

T.rex had a stronger bite that Deinosuchus, it has recently been debunked

#balance-feedback message

[mellow zenith]

do you have a link please ? i like this type of stuff

[obtuse ocean]

You know anything about cera? I have no clue how its gonna be compered to teno/carno. Is it stronger/weaker?

[golden coral]

Well, real life wise cera is smaller and far as I know, would not do well vs a carno, and probably not our ingame teno as well. For the game, that depends a bit on how big our cera gets, and I'm not sure what the chart says, much less what the actual ingame size will be. But if it's supposed to scavenge and claim kills, then it stands to reason it'll be able to do so against carno, in some manner. There's this talk about a septic bite or something that might be a useful defensive ability to deter things from bothering it.

[hollow canyon]

Cerato will be "somewhere" around this size

as per Kissen's statement

[hollow canyon]

@drifting mural Cannibalism is a non-issue, it's encouraged on half of the predators in the game so far. People that complain about it kind of have to... l2p?

[drifting mural]

I just see a ton of people crying and complaining about it, just figured I'd throw out my idea for a 'fix'.

[hollow canyon]

They can cry about it all they want, it isn't something that will ever be getting a proper fix.

There was once upon a time an idea floated by the devs that your dino would turn into an albino if you kept on cannibalising.

But considering that they now allow you to choose albino as a skin that's clearly dead and buried.

[eager ledge]

The more social creatures like like Omni and others they will add like troodon definitely shouldn’t be cannibalising on purpose the should most definitely be punished but dieno and others less social creatures definitely should be fine to canablise as they wish to considering non social animals canibleise each other all the time in the modern day

[thin mantle]

I sorta agree but not on the foundation of any social hierarchy or status…or the necessity for groups to work together…but rather that social species shouldn’t be capable of being self sufficient off their own failure as a group

You shouldn’t be eating the packmate you lost in a hunt…that shouldn’t be a compensation for playing poorly

[hollow canyon]

they are punished for that - they get sick from cannibalism

[thin mantle]

Otherwise we get the Carno effect of mega groups being borderline unpunished for losing a member during a fight because they get the satiation they needed from the deaths of their own group

[hollow canyon]

aside from that they are free to kill each other as they should be

I shouldn't have to tolerate another Utah just because I am a Utah

[eager ledge]

You the muscle spasm thing that’s nothing people just shrug it off like it’s nothing

[thin mantle]

Yeah it’s always funny to me when cannibalism is discussed because typically the complaint stems from the act of kinslaying rather than actually eating the body you made…which is unaffected by canni debuffs…nor should it be

[hollow canyon]

I mean - fair enough?

Let them shrug it off then

it's enough, I personally avoid that like the plague because it ruins ambushes

[thin mantle]

Plus infirtility is probably gonna become an actual factor when progression…exists…via perks elders etc

Because it staggers your ability to complete your goals if you’re even interested in those parts of the game

[hollow canyon]

Idk about that since nesting isn't per se required but it will certainly mess with your diet which you will presumably have to keep up to get the good stuff

[thin mantle]

Depends how elders work

[thin mantle]

@wraith wolf Were you simply not aware that everything got hit with a strange turn rate buff…so much so that dryo is literally nonviable when attempting to juke

[winter iris]

@alpine plover as far as I know carno ram has not been changed damage wise, and typically the ram damage is body weight divided by 6 (at least it is like that for a full adult, so we may assume the same relationship throughout the entire growth). So a 40% carno ramming you, in this update, would cause a base damage of about 120 or 180 if it rammed your head. If the carno was 50% (i.e. approximately 900kg in this update), the base damage would be 150, with 225 if it rammed your head. So I think you likely underestimated the carno size because a 900kg carno would have got almost half your hp also in U5.
All the above damages for a head ram are based on a 1.5 multiplier , but if it’s 2 the head ram damage would be bigger of course

[frail bobcat]

@wraith relic how would call a pachy balanced when its able to spam its ram against a solo omni without being able to be punished because of its low af endlag.

[golden coral]

I'm inclined to think it's a troll post, which only makes feedback even less useful than normally.

[wraith relic]

Wait it can spam ram

Alright guess I’ll take that down

[hollow canyon]

@candid herald

Carnos aren't the most common animals, these guys are:

A literal freaking plague

[hasty coyote]

While I agree that pachy’s stuns need fixing against large things, not much has happened in the Omni matchup. Pachy does 125 with ram, so it only takes like 1 less ram than before, and pachy only got like a 10-20% bleed resist buff, so it still dies in like 2-3 pounces.

The biggest change is pachy having good hit detection, and it can ram an Omni if they hunt off the front. Maybe the Omni turn nerf, if it even happened at all, could be impacting it. So any issues with the matchup are more on Omni’s side rather than pachy being op.

[hollow canyon]

I see more Deinos than all the other carnivores combined

[wraith relic]

The thing people want them to decrease fish spawn rate, but I like rivers to feel more lively and full of fish

[hasty coyote]

It can spam ram as about much as teno can spam tail slam

[wraith relic]

Oh god

[hollow canyon]

I eat other Deinos anyways so wouldn't matter that much to me

[frail bobcat]

My issue was that the ram cant be punished, if you fail it

Damage is fine, hit detection is fine

[hasty coyote]

Which is to say: not much since it costs a good chunk of stam

[wraith relic]

Yeah thought it took longer to get up when you miss it

[candid herald]

from the land dinos i would say that carnos ARE the most common right now.. and that being the "Apex" of the current patch is so annoying

[frail bobcat]

Nah, its like .7 seconds

[candid herald]

i would literally increase carno growthtime by 2h

[frail bobcat]

I would rather balance it

[wraith relic]

Should be as long as Utahs missed pounce

[wraith relic]

Oh hell no

[hasty coyote]

That’s a bit more understandable, they could prob bring it up to like 1.5 seconds and see if that’s enough or too much

[candid herald]

biggest problem is the desynced charges atm

[candid herald]

carno main confirmed ;D

[wraith relic]

Oh hell no

[hasty coyote]

That doesn’t change the fact it’s op, even as a sub. It just delays the inevitable.

[frail bobcat]

Just the same time as omni

[frail bobcat]

Person who can not argue confirmed

[wraith relic]

Deino takes long to grow, you still see them everywhere

[candid herald]

true but less people would pick it up.. cuz in juvie and sub state they are an easy hunt for omnis

[frail bobcat]

I saw 5 adult deinos at one part of center yesterday ...

Apex btw

[wraith relic]

Carno need’s it’s turn to be back like u5 and ram speed

[candid herald]

yeah cuz dinos cant be challenged or hunted!

[frail bobcat]

Sub carno being easy to hunt, good joke

[candid herald]

deinos*

[hasty coyote]

So making it unfun is the way to go? No, make it balanced and add other Dino’s, and it’s population will go down

[golden coral]

But that kind of growth time is entirely unreasonable. And not needed either.

[wraith relic]

They buffed carno in all the wrong ways

[golden coral]

No, what they did was a step in the right direction.

[candid herald]

carno growthtime is way too short though

for being the apex rn

[frail bobcat]

If carno would be balanced, it wouldnt be

[wraith relic]

What u5 carno needed was a smaller hunger fill up

[golden coral]

It's not the apex though, only stego and deino are apexes.

[candid herald]

google definition of apex pls

[hasty coyote]

So teno would also need to have it growth time increased because it’s basically the same sized?

[golden coral]

How about we use the Isle terminology when we play the Isle?

[candid herald]

no why?

[wraith relic]

Carno has always been ment to dominate small tiers but get bodied by everything else

[candid herald]

its a herbie

[golden coral]

In any case, carno is meant to be an effective small game hunter, it wasn't before, it is now. That's really all there is to that.

[hasty coyote]

Google def =/= isle def
Isle def is anything 8 tons or made to fight other apexes (aka stego and deino)

[golden coral]

The hitbox is an issue, the CC and charge damage is an issue in some ways, but the general functionality of carno right now is more as it should be than not.

[wraith relic]

But carnos literal whole just was that it has very bad turns but is very fast

Then they made charge slower and gave it better turns

[frail bobcat]

It didnt fit carno tbh, it was bad at the one thing it was supposed to be good at (hunting smalls)

[candid herald]

never said anything else.. im just saying you see them way too much atm.. more than omnis.. more than herbies.. on land that is.. and for being the strongest land carnivore i think you should do something to reduce population and that would start with growthtime increase (you can always put it back down when other dinos are in the game)

[frail bobcat]

I like the pursuit predator carno approach more

[candid herald]

apex has nothing to do with weight or size.. its the carnivore at the end of the foodchain and that is carno on land ..

i mean just look at my screen on balance feedback.. that was like 20min ago ... its just not normal anymore

[hasty coyote]

I’m telling you, our definition of apex is different, it’s a size category. And carno wouldn’t be an apex because Omni packs can hunt it and so can deinos

[tall bronze]

Everyone has different opinions on what tiers represent which is why they need to g o

[candid herald]

rexes on legacy could be hunted by 1 skilled utah.. so?

doesnt make rex an apex now?

[hasty coyote]

As I said, it’s a size category. By your definition, it wouldn’t be an apex, no Dino in our roster would ever be an apex.

[frail bobcat]

Except hypsi

[candid herald]

its a wrong definition but whatever you feel comfortable with...

i just find it really unenjoyable to play the isle right now with the amount of carno mains out there...

[frail bobcat]

Its the definition of the game. Its something different than the real life apex definition. He is not wrong

You are wrong right now

[candid herald]

sure whatever makes you happy.. i just want this small, non apex dino called carno to be less popular

[frail bobcat]

Ok

[golden coral]

Which is terrible for hunting small game, hence the issues with it. Which is my point, the new carno is more like it should be for the purpose it was meant to have.

[hollow canyon]

charges aren't desynced, they have a very buggy hitbox that will need to get a fix

[thin mantle]

@alpine sleet Why does Omni need a general buff when it’s only balancing discrepancy is Carno’s charge hitbox and the general turn rate bug

Omni is still incredibly powerful post buck nerf…if you’ve never tried attrition hunting with Omni I’d definitely recommend it

[tall bronze]

Technically no one is right since tiers are made up by players

[thin mantle]

Yeah but it’s been accepted slang in the community for several years now

[tall bronze]

Doesn't change the fact everyone has different views on it 😛 Makes it unreliable.

"Acro is apex"

"No it's pseudo-apex"

"lmao no it's a mid-tier"

[wraith relic]

If that’s true then it shouldn’t have been able to hunt like that in real life

[golden coral]

To be fair, most things in this game wouldn't work that way in real life. Not sure how that is relevant, I'm talking about the ingame purpose of our carno.

[wraith relic]

I still don’t think they should be lazy enough to take away one of the core features of an animal at this point, they should take the time to make it work

[obtuse ocean]

Do we as community use apex as diffrent definition? Or you meaning devs

[frail bobcat]

I think the general community views the same playables as apexes

And carno is not one of them

[obtuse ocean]

Yea carno is not apex lol, but in the future i think we mean rex,giga,spino etc

But dont think devs mean size

[golden coral]

It's not about being lazy, it's about designing the critter for the ingame purpose they want. No matter if it fits reality or not. Look at most of our concepts and stuff.

[hollow canyon]

The devs used them too - the old roadmap had all the animals on it labeled with their tiers

[hollow canyon]

The term "apex" is a remnant of the progression game mode. The animals that were at the end of the progression trees were "apexes".

After survival was introduced the term obviously kind of lost its meaning

[tall bronze]

I kinda took that as similar to how Punch may say mercs when referring to humans even if they aren't called that; just so people get what he's saying. But if they do use them legit.....they need to not >:I That or make a better official tier system for them, because relying on community tiers is stinky.

[kindred sphinx]

I think something that could help the balance with the ram is that once RMB is held, the pachy is locked in to walking/running straight until the attack animation is done or canceled. No turning on a dime with the attack. Maybe an ALT-RMB can be added for it (if it's not there) but does less damage and can never fracture.

[hasty coyote]

Nah, the issue isn’t with pachy actually being able to land an attack, as we saw with U4’s turn reduction. The issue is with stuns for the big things, or omni being under powered. ||Or the devs could have decided to go the route of pachy being a hard counter to Omni.||

[keen plover]

That would honestly make the game worse. Sub / fresh adult carnos are the absolute bane of small tiers. 60+km, can do knockdowns, high biteforce and high stamina. If I could prolong those stages, I would enjoy it even more.

Big juvi, 43%~ carno, can beat on 2 omnis

Maybe even more if it can catch them in an ambush

[fallow blaze]

I heard today from two friends. 1 Pachy kills two fullgrow carnos. Those two hit the pachy with 4 ALT-Attacks- pachy dont care.
Is pachy that much OP right now or was it a hacker?
Doesnt have enough time to test it ingame
Thats why im asking

Doesnt read anything about OP-pachy

[frail bobcat]

Maybe tailhits

[fallow blaze]

They told me, the pachy just hit there tails. And those two his body

[frail bobcat]

Were they playing on high ping?

[hollow canyon]

2 alt attacks kill Pachy

[fallow blaze]

Doesnt have problems with that since UPDATE 6

[fallow blaze]

Well then- hacker it seems.
I believe diet on health doesnt make that big differences..

[hollow canyon]

oooor... those attacks didn't land on the body

trust me Pachy's body is surprisingly hard to hit

[fallow blaze]

They said all attacks hit the body🤷

[hollow canyon]

yea but

I read that as:

"They THINK all attacks hit the body"

[fallow blaze]

Cant say

[hollow canyon]

yea I know, just saying I don't generally believe people when it comes to that stuff

because I know for sure that it doesn't take 4 alt bites on the body to kill a Pachy

3 normal bites kill a Pachy

if you land them on the body

but the head takes 0.5x dmg

so if they're clipping that - yea they might need 4 bites

legs take less damage than body too

and then the tail takes even less

[frail bobcat]

There is leg damage?

Like on all playables?

[fallow blaze]

Well thx for that whole of information 🙂

[hollow canyon]

yea

pretty sure on all playables

[frail bobcat]

Do you know the x multiplier?

[hollow canyon]

although I can't guarantee that

[hollow canyon]

I think x0.8

[frail bobcat]

Imma have to test that

[fallow blaze]

Could it be: carnos got a small hitbox. They "bite" over the body, but hit the pachy just on the tail? Know what i mean?

[hollow canyon]

sure, go for it and tell me how it works

[hollow canyon]

I get what you mean the thing is

all the attacks in the game have a very specific way of interacting with multiple areas of locational damage

iirc legs and shoulders actually tend to be the areas that are prioritised by the game

atm at least

I might be wrong about this because I read the patch notes on that ages ago

but I think it was the legs and shoulders that were prioritised

shoulders or arms or something*

locational in this game is very complex actually

and has a tendency to mislead people in terms of how much damage things deal

[fallow blaze]

Ring a bell. I heard that ages ago too.. but really dont know where exactly

[hollow canyon]

It was in the patch notes of 3.75 so... August 2021

I think August 14th

don't feel like looking it up rn though, feel free to do so if you want to check how it works exactly

[thin mantle]

@restive token
1: Pounce has a more egregious hitbox size than stegos tail swing…it’s enormous.
2: Learn how to tap pounce and plan your group hunts against larger animals…Omni is very powerful but is actually incentivized to plan with its group now because soloing isn’t as easy as it used to

Bleed focused hunters should take time and patience to make kills…Carno is literally the only animal in the game that makes this difficult because Carno is the only animal faster than Omni

And even a bucked pounces worth of damage is a lot of bleed during the course of a fight

[frail bobcat]

@solid belfry many people asked for a buck nerf and carno was underpowered. It had to fear omnis, it should be the other way round. Carno is too strong rn, but the buffs were necessary (but not to this extent)

[solid belfry]

Underpowered?

[golden coral]

People need to stop thinking no ones wants the new changes just because they dont like them. I much prefer the new charge and bucking, its very much a step in the right direction.

[solid belfry]

Not at all, this is people who don’t know how to play

[solid belfry]

Let me guess you don’t play utah

[frail bobcat]

You know that carno is supposed to be the bully of small tiers, not the other way round

[golden coral]

Omni was op before, carno wasnt good at its job, buck was kind of useless, and so on.

[solid belfry]

Bully not what it is now

I killed utahs left and right last update but now there is no one to fight

[golden coral]

I do, but that is not an argument so its irrelevant

[frail bobcat]

The main issue rn is the carno hitbox and the inertia bug

I do not say that carno is fine rn, because it is not. But a revert is a bad idea

[golden coral]

I look at the mechanics and the niche and purpose of a playable and measure balance and so on from there. Cliff/tree meta vs pounce is boring and bad so new bucking is much preferable since it now makes sense to buck. Old carno charge was not it good for chasing things, new one is which makes sense when youre meant to run down agile targets. Pursuit carno instead of badly designed ambush carno.

[golden coral]

This. Things are overtuned and all, but looking at the "concept" its better than before.

[frail bobcat]

#balance-feedback message

I like this feedback, but we have to ignore the omni turn buff thingy and just insert "fix inertia" there

[somber sphinx]

I feel they went the right way with the bucking but made it a bit overtuned especially against similar sized prey like pachy where it deletes Omnis stam

[frail bobcat]

You saw the video of scope where a 53% omni pounced a teno and it got its stam deleted in one tick?

[somber sphinx]

Think so, was the teno a full grown?

[frail bobcat]

Yes

It was 45 minute video about the balance

Very informative

[somber sphinx]

Well I don’t really see the issue with that, as a 50% Omni you shouldn’t go after a full teno lol but I feel the buck duration should vary towards the size of what Omni is pouncing so it looses less stam of similar sized animals like pachy, Galli and dilo but the bigger the animal the more stam the Omni looses when it gets bucked off

[frail bobcat]

The other is the fact that its ticks and not a gradual stam loss

Its just "let me delete your stam real quick"

@crisp junco the issue is that the deino growth is WAY to easy

[crisp junco]

6 or 8 hours?

i swear it use to be 12

[frail bobcat]

Its not the lenght

Its the fact thats it easy

[crisp junco]

wdym

i dont play croc so i have no idea

[frail bobcat]

You have no competition, you have free food all the time (elite fish), the only threatening thing are other crocs which you can from as a smaller croc by just going to the land.
Can some deino mains expand on this please?

[crisp junco]

ill pop those into my suggestion then

thanks!

[frail bobcat]

Good

But the balance of other playables does not matter in this subject

[crisp junco]

i didnt know it was easy to grow one so i assumed it was the other playables

no one wants to play dryo, omni, hypsi, tento because theyre all bad now

mainly carnos and deinos, and a few stegs, and minimal pachys

[buoyant marlin]

Deino is super easy to grow but also extremely boring in my experience

[crisp junco]

yea thats why i never play one

[raven sapphire]

how can stego one shot everything ?

how is this fair

[frail bobcat]

Well, you can just go away

[marsh lion]

Hehe spikey tail go swooosh

[golden coral]

Same reason deino can. Theyre apexes vs small and mid tiers and stego does not oneshot teno or carno (unless headshot).

[crisp junco]

it cant?

its like a 4 or 5 shot to a dieno

[cunning bay]

What did u fight the stego as?

[raven sapphire]

carno

[frail bobcat]

Headshot go brrr

[cunning bay]

Yeah uhm... Carno aint supposed to fight stego... What you are supposed to fight is in your diet...

[buoyant marlin]

Stego should rly have a carni predator tho

[dusky surge]

it has deino (which is the only apex that could probably stand a chance with this ecosystem)

deino's not the best at it, but it can still do something (especially in duos or greater)

[hollow canyon]

it's more like 4h30m/5h30m depending on your diet

[crisp junco]

Didn’t it use to be like 12 hr

[dusky surge]

no

[hollow canyon]

not really it used to be

20hours/10hours/7h40m/5h

something like that

[crisp junco]

Ahk thought it was rough at one point

[hollow canyon]

it wasn't, nah, Deino's always been rather easy to grow

atm it's more fun I think because you kill stuff more throughout your growth

and have to cannibalise a lot

I have tonnes of fun growing it

by far the most fun playable in the game in my book right now

[frail bobcat]

But there are still to many adult deinos

[hollow canyon]

yea, I'm sorry I don't have enough time to kill them on every server

[crisp junco]

Ye my mate killed 7 adults at nw earlier tonight and came across another 6 and one hacker at shallows not long after lel

Issue when most of the pop is crocs hiding in water and you don’t play croc

[verbal cloak]

are pachys rams actually blocked by mud?

[frail bobcat]

Yes

They cant start a ram in the mud

[verbal cloak]

ahh thanks man!

[mellow zenith]

The big prob with deino is just the player base that despise the cannibalistic side of the playable and mega pack at the central river

[mellow zenith]

• spiro river system that doesnt suit Deino

[finite yoke]

Personally I don't cannibalise unless there's actually a need for it, ... because it's a lot less risky to drown a Carno/Omni to get that nutrient. Also because I know it takes ages to grow the damn thing and it's a dick move if it's not necessary. But I've chomped a few smaller crocs in times of need lmao

The fact that you can only communicate with your own species doesn't help with that "anti-cannibalism" sentiment. They're the only people you can potentially team up with. Not that I'd want to change that species-specific communication deal, though, but it just explains why it's harder for a lot of people to cannibalise. Empathy. Again, doesn't apply to everyone.

[somber sphinx]

I cannibalize often cause there are too many deinos atm

[solar moth]

I've never had the pleasure of cannibalizing yet as deino, migh be bc i live on fish 24/7 and end up being the one that's cannibalized

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/silco-jinx-dont-cry-youre-perfect-gif-23900193

[eager ledge]

That is why if there is a big dieno starts charging at make sure you bite first don’t trust people getting close unless they they actually make there intentions clear before they get anywhere near you this how I kill canibals before they can kill me then I eat them and basically become a canible myself

[old hull]

as a deino , you have no reason to ever want other deinos to live , they will just eat your food so why not kill every single one you stumble across

hell deino even being able to group is kinda pointless unless they are fighting other deinos , its lunge is not any better when your in a group , you will either grab the dino or you wont

[somber sphinx]

I know

[mellow zenith]

Exactly

[thick stratus]

cannis like yall make the servers toxic and destoy the game.

[somber sphinx]

No

If you are a cannibalic species expect to be cannibalized, it’s simple

[thick stratus]

Simple aspect of a video game you need players to play if new players cant live 5 mins no ones going to play.

I used to tell friends to play this game and i wouldnt recomend in to my worst enemy right now.

[thin mantle]

If they don't expect to die to things that would absolutely kill them when starting fresh in a multiplayer survival game...they need to find a new genre cuz this ain't for them

Now if it was an issue of viability we WOULD have an issue on our hands...but deino is right next to carno has having the most favorable growth

So if you die during growth to larger deinos it's likely that you expected them not to kill your irrationally or you didn't see them coming

[thick stratus]

I get it from a survival stand point your starving sure whatever. But you know damn well that alot of it is on sight kills for no reason then to troll

[thin mantle]

There is quite literally a reasonable justification in this game to make essentially any kill

[somber sphinx]

Or..you know. Competition reasons

[thick stratus]

I have never had a problem growing and surviving as an adult anything without having to kill my own kind other than self defense. Its unjustified as an adult Deno or Carno to sit in less pop areas and spawn kill their own knowing well that they have no chance

[thick stratus]

Example: as a Teri yesturday I watched a Carno kill another carno just to get clapped by a juvi stego whats the point.

[somber sphinx]

There are just too many carnos and deinos atm so cannibalising is the best option (for deino mostly) to keep the numbers down and since they are cannibalistic predators you should expect to be cannibalized if you see one that is bigger and stronger than you

[somber sphinx]

Well that was its own fault for engaging against a juvi-sub stego even tho it had enough food for the moment

[thin mantle]

What's the issue with that aside from the carno attacking a stego that was way too powerful for it

[thick stratus]

Two full sized carnos could easily had taken it and had enoug food for both.

[thin mantle]

Those carnos aren't under obligation to work together

Nothing is

This is especially true if either player finds it difficult to find food, it isn't...but a lot of players seem to think so

So why would you double your food intake requirements when you can solo basically all of your prey items?

The only one that isn't is pachy....because literally nothing can solo a pachy

[somber sphinx]

Deino

[thin mantle]

I wouldn't even consider that one of it's matchups :p

[somber sphinx]

Stego

[thin mantle]

Tbf that just applies to deino generally tho....it doesn't really have matchups

[thin mantle]

Same thing

[somber sphinx]

Ptera

[thin mantle]

Well ya got me there :(

Not really anymore but last patch...oof

[thick stratus]

maybe Teno if you dont run into caro pack

[thin mantle]

Nah teno is fodder to carno rn

If you flank charge em, as in approach from behind but turn off right before hitting them so your gargantuan hitbox clips their leg...they can't catch it

[thick stratus]

TBF lets take a monment to pray for all the Diplos out there lmfao

real MVPs

[thin mantle]

Considering allo is basically the OC carni for this game....seemingly....diplo won't stand a chance :(

[thick stratus]

Okay so take Diplo out add it as AI and put in somthing more balancing

[somber sphinx]

OC?

[thin mantle]

Or just don't make allo busted :p

[thin mantle]

"Original Character"

The literal example of this would be omni

[somber sphinx]

Ah ok

[thin mantle]

But allo shares many of the qualities that make omni is.....ew

For a lack of better terms

[thick stratus]

I think they need to nerf most herbis and force them to play more of a herd gameplay.

I see even solo herbis collecting body counts just because they can lmfao

[thin mantle]

hehe....no

[thin mantle]

That can only happen if the carni players are mindnumbingly awful

You have to feed yourself to a herbi for it to kill you

Deino is immortal....to everything on land...literally

Carno is the fastest animal in the game....omni the second fastest

If you as a carni died to a herbi it's because it was playing defensively

Because that's quite literally their only statistical option

[golden coral]

That's a rather terrible idea.

[thin mantle]

Also...are we dipping our toes into the "herbivores aren't aggressive" argument?

https://tenor.com/view/beasts-of-bermuda-kaperoo-the-isle-path-of-titans-gif-23526654

[thick stratus]

Herbi are inherently defensively agressive not im going to go hunt a carno because i can lmfao

[thin mantle]

Why not...they're a threat to your survival

If you let them live now they could ambush you later

Why risk it

[thick stratus]

Then group up simple im not going to fight 4 tennos as a carno

[thin mantle]

Why should they have to? Cuz they eat grass?

If anything they should be even MORE capable in a 1v1 than their aggressor is because they're forced to play defensively

Balance wise

[thick stratus]

but when you have your ecosystem butt backwards and having stegos run servers in a group and not beable to cull them that forces carnos to eat eachother

[thin mantle]

Good....carnos are cannibals....also idk what servers you're playing on but the server pops universally on officials is deino and carno dominated and it's not even close...followed closely by pachy

Because those 3 are the strongest animals in the game demonstrably

[thick stratus]

Yah 100% Deno is over pop. agreed.

It might just be a problem that alot of players would rather play a carnivore just because. I think it would fix alot of this if herbis had more insentive to play herbis

[slim dragon]

eat grass and die

[neon willow]

The issue is, herbis are very strong. And forcing them to play with other players kinda disincentivizes playing herbis. You don't have a group of friends to play with? Okay, you're a meal on wheels for the first carnivore that sees you

Plus... Both issues will likely be fixed with a more diverse roster

Stego needs predators

[golden coral]

Yeah, the whole group up for defense is terrible. It works on offense because you can still make something viable solo in that case. That is much harder on the defense.

[neon willow]

And carno needs more smaller food items because honestly it has no business trying to hunt stego

[thick stratus]

they dont cuz they just hunt themselves

[thin mantle]

I definitely don't think nerfing them to require more group play would even remotely do this tbf

[neon willow]

Which is why they need other things to eat 😂 they hunt themselves because they often need to choose between that and starving

[thin mantle]

It barely has business hunting teno let alone stegos

[thick stratus]

Like iv said i have never had a problem finding food to survive in the game

[thin mantle]

That is also very true and something rarely brought up....balancing a playable for defensive play in groups necessarily makes them basically impossible to play in most contexts....

[thick stratus]

please explain this ?

[neon willow]

Then... What's your argument here? Besides removing carno from carno diet (which increasing the roster of other potential food items might allow), how do you prevent carno hunting carno?

[thick stratus]

Its that simple remove them from the diet you dont see raptors killing raptors because they are starving

[neon willow]

Say you implement an iguanodon, that is designed to play in herds. It balances so that 3 iguanodon can fend off predators together - say, a pair of allow, or carnos. But because they were balanced and intended to play in a group, they are extremely easy to pick off solo, because their defense relies on having multiple players work together

[neon willow]

They probably will be removed from diet once other playables are added. To be honest I don't really see stego being kept on Omniraptor diet long term either

[thick stratus]

right why is that wong when you have the nesting now you can nest into a group and pick off the smaller ones like a wolf pack

[neon willow]

That assumes anyone is nesting iguanodon, and there really aren't eggs up for grabs that often... It means that if there aren't any eggs available, spawned players of that species are just... Out of luck and gonna die

[thick stratus]

and if they are nerfed they have an equal chance of dieing preventing body gaurding

[neon willow]

Which isn't great for encouraging people to take a chance to play it

People don't body guard because they don't think they can die rhough

I've seen a solo teno body guard their companion after death just to snub the carnis that are trying to eat

[thick stratus]

The way it is now isnt encouraging either

[neon willow]

No it's not. But pointing out that the current way is bad doesn't automatically mean that the suggested way will get better results

[thick stratus]

Thats what i mean if herbis were nerfed that a possible death sentence they signed on their own not them knowing they possibly could possible kill 3 carnos lmfao

[neon willow]

3 carnos working together will absolutely mail a single teno

Even before the update

Maul*

[thick stratus]

I just think they need to give players an insentive to play herbis as a group to kill the pop of carnivores give them a nesting buff of group buff

or*

[golden coral]

You just want people to play herbis more?

[thick stratus]

If they had insentive to play or as a group it would bring down the carno count and if they got nerfed it would allow raptors to acually hunt and kill somthing besides boar

maybe keep them as dangerous but lower their HP

[golden coral]

I don't think them playing as a group will make a difference there. And only risks making them less played.

[neon willow]

Carnis are popular because many players enjoy the challenge of hunting for food and being required to fight other players for survival. Herbis just don't do that

[golden coral]

You do see the issue with making a playable group reliant on defense right? You can't do that very well, because if you need at least one other to survive reliably, most people will die before they find that other person, and then it only gets worse as the carnis can also group up, so you'd need to outnumber them severly to even stand an chance.

So your idea would only make herbis be played less, not more.

[neon willow]

And nerfing herbis would likely make them less popular as min/maxing and being able to destroy other players is something some players prioritize

[golden coral]

Nah, pachy good. Carnis popular because "can kill stuff better most of the time/be on the offense effectively". No one is here to just survive, they're here to just murder stuff.

[neon willow]

Well... I covered that in my next point lol

[golden coral]

So you did! :p

[neon willow]

But still many players don't even attempt to play herbis, even ones like pachy

[calm ibex]

pachies are plagued by trust issues + grouping up is a lot harder as herbivore than carnivore

[thin mantle]

If you're balanced as a defensively oriented combat dino to necessitate group play to simply survive an encounter with any of your predators......you aren't viable...you're simply not fulfilling your purpose and relying on the server playerscape to ensure you won't get rolled whenever you come out of your hiding spot is horrendous...

[thin mantle]

Which is honestly kinda bizarre considering pachy is arguably better than carno rn....actually no...it IS better than carno rn

[thick stratus]

Thats the point of an herbi not stroll across a field because you can solo the whole map lmfao

[thin mantle]

What is the point of a herbi....

[calm ibex]

reminder that only difference between herbivore and carnivore is their diet

[thin mantle]

If they exist to simply be prey for the carnivores...I'd love an explanation as to why things like theri should travel in groups because they just can't defend themselves somehow

[neon willow]

Like I said, I think a lot of players like the idea of "required" pvp. Yeah, pachys hit like freight trains, but pvp isn't as easily justified with them. Yes, herbis can be aggressive, but a lot of players hide wanting to murder everything in sight behind a carnivore having hunting instincts and needing food and such... It's a major justification particularly in canni species

Also I think carnivores arguably have a better gameplay loop right now

[thin mantle]

Mhm...and it's really just a matter of perspective tbh...as a herbi combat is borderline obligated moreso than it is for carnis...all carnis can live off of AI rn and all carnivores have engagement authority over the herbivores...as a herbivore you'll be forced into combat far more than you would as a carnivore simply because of a lack of agency

[thick stratus]

To be alert and causus not juggernuting and mudering maps making carnos surving off eachother instead of a dangerous but squishy herbi.

[neon willow]

Herbivores can have a LOT of downtime, and their food gathering doesn't require the same creativity or skill as carnivores. We really need something to make playing herbivores rewarding and fun

[thin mantle]

So a herbis purpose is to be alert and not kill anything without being engaged first?

[thick stratus]

LOL yes herbis should not be able to go out and look for fights simple as that

I dont go out hunting deer in the woods waiting for one to be stalking me

[neon willow]

Herbis have control over combat too. I rarely get combat when I play herbis because I just go to less popular areas for food. I grew a stego from spawn without being attacked once, even while constantly migrating for food. Same for teno and pachy

[thick stratus]

Now sneaking up on a moose and it charges to defence thats exspected @thin mantle

[neon willow]

Anytime you give a player control they have free rein to choose to go out looking for fights. No amount of mechanics will change this

[thick stratus]

There in lies the problem nerf the players not the game

[calm ibex]

it's as if walking around and holding E on multiple objects was not very engaging

[neon willow]

As fundamentally, these aren't herbivore dinosaurs. They're omnivore humans skinned to look like a herbivore dinosaur

[thick stratus]

That why i see the arguments against my idea because yes they are there to nerf the players ideas not the creature itself

[neon willow]

You can't nerf the players. The only way to do that is to set rules and enforce them, and even that won't stop the issues. Look at how many traffic tickets are handed out for illegal parking, or speeding, or blowing a red light. People still do it

[golden coral]

So how do you nerf the players?

[thick stratus]

Yah but if they dont give them the ability to do the things that are breaking the ecosystem and forceing players to do out of the norm things thats a problem

[golden coral]

So then how do you prevent a player from going "I will just hunt things down", aside from making their playable incapable of it, which in turn leads to issues with people not playing it. Look at ptera, or dryo before current patch. Amazing playables, but not the most popular for that, because no combat.

[neon willow]

The problem is it accomplishes nerfing the player's ideas while also making players effectively unviable when they, for whatever reason, are forced into a situation where they have to play solo. Spawn by yourself? Happy meal. Group is killed or logs off? Happy meal. The only way such a creature balanced to be effective only in a group will be chosen for play is if a player only plays the game with a dedicated group who will always be online and log their dinos in the same location... Oh, wait. That sounds like clans. 😦

[frail bobcat]

we do not want clans here

[neon willow]

Exactly. Clans are really toxic environments.

[thick stratus]

nerf herbis HP so they acually act like prey and not juggernuts. Keep a higher attack for defence capabilities. If your a solo herbi thats life hide eat and drink at night

[neon willow]

And even then, speaking as someone who has dealt with clans, they usually go for things that can fight solo but are devastating in groups. Rexes, Gigas, spinos, trikes, etc...

[frail bobcat]

eat grass and die, I love it

[thick stratus]

LOL what do you excpect this isnt goat sim

[golden coral]

Which I explained to you how that doesn't work. You're nerfing the playable, and peoples ability to enjoy the playable. No one will play a solo herbi like that because they're dead on sight. Do you not realize this?

[frail bobcat]

its a term used for suggestions that say "nerf herbivores because they are herbivores"

[neon willow]

Except hunger and water don't last all day. Also it is REALLY boring to sit in a bush all day because you can be killed on sight, which is a big factor for players avoiding squishy playables

[golden coral]

No matter if you nerf power or health or something else, if you make it so a solo herbi has to hide or die, no one will play it. it's that simple. We know this from legacy.

[bright oasis]

They always circle back to it eventually lol

[golden coral]

At the very least, unless you can make the process of hiding and all interesting, but then it'd be a playable designed for that.

[frail bobcat]

What is this channel without some good old eat grass and die

[golden coral]

But that also would imply you'd never meet that kind of herbi if it plays correctly, so you'd not be hunting it anyway.

[tall bronze]

Just wanna say I like the idea of Ptera eating rotten meat, but personally I think it should be more so resistant to it than straight up immune. I'd give it 50% resistance to it so a completely rotten corpse is only half-rotten to Ptera. :3

[thin mantle]

hehe....so you've never heard of a moose have you

[thick stratus]

I said defensivly

[neon willow]

Really to get people to play herbis they need some activities that challenge herbis to think, much like hunting works for carnis

[frail bobcat]

nerfing herbi hp worsens the carni overpop problem

[golden coral]

Sounds good!

[neon willow]

That's what we're trying to explain lol

[frail bobcat]

and the guy does not get it?

[neon willow]

For some reason they think that nerfing herbis will get more people to play them because they'll need larger groups to be collectively successful

[golden coral]

Which is the exact opposite of what will actually happen. Just look at para in legacy, great example of how that goes.

[frail bobcat]

that does not make any sense at all

[thick stratus]

Look all this stems off me saying to take Carnos off their own diets

[frail bobcat]

lets go and grow a underpowered herbi that needs a herd to survive

[neon willow]

I agree. The question is, what kinds of activities?

[thick stratus]

they are hunting eachother as prey insad of hunting acual prey becasue they are too tanky

[tall bronze]

Players like something
Said something is made worse
Players don't like it now

[frail bobcat]

they are hunting carnis because they cant find herbies, because of carnivore overpopulation

[golden coral]

A good question. Not sure, though I guess maybe diets could be expanded upon. As well as enviromental effects in some manner maybe.

[neon willow]

It's not because most herbis try to hide and are hard to find, while most carnis hang in center and northwest in the open, and carnos are more food than Utah's or pteras?

[golden coral]

No, because they have each other on diet, which makes sense then to cull their own. It's not a matter of them not being able to hunt anything else, far from it right now. Carno is doing quite well, as is deino. It's that people want to kill their own kind as well.

[tall bronze]

Some niche partitioning or whatever it is could help a fair bit (with everything really). Juvie Tenos being excellent divers and gaining easier access to aquatic foods, juvie Pachys dealing decent bleed due to the spikes, etc. Just something to make growing up a lil spicier.

[golden coral]

This as well.

[obtuse ocean]

Thats why i play herbi, its diffrent from carni playstyle. But if im slow and tanky, i for sure as hell not gonna be free food lol

[golden coral]

Yes please! But we'd still need something for when grown too.

[frail bobcat]

different niches for juvies should kinda count for every species

[thick stratus]

but knowing how tanking you are do you go out looking for body counts

[tall bronze]

Yeah that's why I mentioned everything in it 😛

[hasty coyote]

I have been through this song and dance constantly, so I'll just link you my well thought explanation as to why it would just be unviable: #balance-feedback message

[neon willow]

Stuff like dryo or hypsi would be cool to have a primitive building system-- thinking about beavers with dams or birds with nests. Could stretch the old creative mind to create the most effective mini fort

[tall bronze]

I was kinda hoping working towards perks would suffice for that, but it seems you just get them automatically by growing. Elder is still something to work towards though. But yeah, adults need a lil more to do.

[calm ibex]

I think most people want to fight, but only when they won't die, so yes chances are you run into stronger animals on popular areas

[tall bronze]

I 100% support building of any kind.

[frail bobcat]

support this

[hasty coyote]

I'm still hoping for taco to just go full out on building the most intricate burrows.

[obtuse ocean]

You mean stego? I cant hunt anything with that. Unless someone dont pay attention. But this is not how the game gonna be when more dinos comes.

[frail bobcat]

like the bird that builds those insane nests and decorates them with blue stuff

[neon willow]

Still need downtime activities for larger stuff like teno and stego, of course. Because herbis have a lot of down time, even when looking for diets

[hasty coyote]

Now that you mention that, it reminds me of an old idea I had and I don't think I posted it in general feedback, I may go do that real quick lol

[frail bobcat]

nice

[tall bronze]

A part of me still wants a form of comfort system-hear me out-that's entirely optional and doesn't screw you over if you don't participate in it. Just rewards little temporary QoL buffs that don't last too long (depending on the buff), but are nice to have.

For example; "You wallowed in mud! Your more resistant to hotter temperatures now!" as well as regular mud benefits Or "You basked in the sun on an elevated surface (like a rock or something)! Your stamina regen is increased!" etc.

The fact these buffs wouldn't last too long also makes said activity easily repeatable if so desired.

[neon willow]

Yeah that would be cool

I'd also like a hoarding/ornamentation/territory marking system. Nothing fancy, but kinda like how corvids collect sparkly objects

[tall bronze]

Could even have species-unique things like "Your Baryonyx is satisfied after sharpening it's claws against a tree. It loses less stamina when attacking with claws now" just an example

[neon willow]

Or how deer scratch trees to remove velvet, or tigers claw trees to show they live in the area and warn others away

[tall bronze]

[neon willow]

And preferably it needs to be something a player needs to actively do-- the only downside to something like basking is it's sitting not touching keys for a few minutes

[tall bronze]

I'd love for basking to just be a general activity though. Could maybe reuse wallow animations for it if needed. Imagine seeing Tenos rolling around in fields soaking up the sun

[tall bronze]

True, true

[thin mantle]

And that changes nothing...moose are chronic rage beasts that kill anything they find vaguely threatening...like last year we had a Moose walk up to someones car in town and beat the crap out of it for almost an hour before moving on

[neon willow]

Whereas collecting valuables is something actively done-- you wander looking for the items

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/horse-funny-roll-kon-gif-8329089

[tall bronze]

What if dinosaurs gathered acor-

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/slave-knight-gael-dark-souls3-ringed-city-gif-24181378

[neon willow]

Path of Titans moment 😂 I do like that game sometimes, but... They desperately need quests for carnivores that aren't making flower necklaces

[thin mantle]

I wouldn't even say that's an acceptable quest for herbis either...

It's so absurdly boring

[obtuse ocean]

Sounds like chores

[neon willow]

I was thinking more like collecting rare drops, like a fancy feather, shiny rock, etc. Make little decorative "piles" or just for the fun of collecting

[thin mantle]

Yeah but....in necessity for growth....

That's what screws it over

[neon willow]

Not something with a lot of routine "wander and gather 500 of X item" is painfully grindy

And the repetition because it's required for growth in pot and many locations reuse the exact same quest is what kills me

[thin mantle]

It's not even just that...there's just nothing interesting about discovering X thing and tapping Q on it till it's gone, variety wouldn't change that, those quests just shouldn't exist

It's something an automated program couldn't do any better or worse than a player could...nothing about that achieves anything aside from filling time

[neon willow]

Yeah that too. I don't mind "find this thing" quests but the effort should be in actually getting access to it, not repetitively hitting a button with multiple spawns readily available

[thin mantle]

Well in most games...the thing you find actually serves a purpose...that'd be the defining trait that makes POT questing redundant

The items are arbitrary...the variety in collectibles only exists so you have to look in more places

And progress towards growth and achieving the meta for your dino doesn't count for this as those are universal rewards across all quests

Nothing specific to the quest itself

[neon willow]

Grounded is a surprisingly entertaining survival game that does it well. It works a little like ark, with insects (including spiders) but they have fetch quests where you may know exactly where the item is-- on the bird bath, in the pond, on the picnic table-- but the thing that makes the quest take time is putting the steps together to get to X location

Though... Dialogue is a little repetitive

[neon willow]

Yeah true. Honestly as the Isle's lore is about genetically modified dinos anyways, you could even flirt with the idea of more intelligent dinos and primitive ornamentation as rewards, though... For obvious reasons, this has to be done very carefully or it starts becoming garish (cough bob cough)

Maybe getting into human food stores would be a good quest for herbivores? Raiding the granary, etc

Would provide a bit of a puzzle, especially if human food gave buffs to herbivores that can't be found elsewhere

[thin mantle]

Yeah...but if ballistics are actually realistic I don't want there to be any mechanical incentive for humans and dinos to interact outside of the context of strains....

Because that's just you as a dino begging to be killed

[neon willow]

depends on how they do it. they can have mixed realistic ballistics where the trajectory works like real firearms but the damage is predetermined, and dinos are not killed in a few seconds

[thin mantle]

Ideally I wouldn’t want any but the extra smalls to be actual oneshots…regardless of realism it’s just a consequences of having a game demonstrably focused on melee combat

[neon willow]

agreed. maybe slightly larger things could be one shot... but only with "spoiling", rare ammo that is server number locked (eg, only X rounds on any server at a time). It should be extremely rare to incentivize choosing to hoard it to deal with larger threats (strains, etc)

[thin mantle]

I don’t think ranged oneshot attacks should exist period…regardless of the weapon or ammo

You’re not even giving the target the opportunity to account for its potential execution

I think that the larger compounds should be the primary if not the only good counter to the larger animals….with the smaller ones being able to infiltrate them, which would happily necessitate the balancing of guns away from large animals and instead it small ones, that way we wouldn’t have inflated damage numbers so humans could oneshot carnos or something like that

Plus it also sets a really bad precedent for onesided engagements

Especially if humans group up

Team shooting would be busted

[tall bronze]

Can I one shot a Troodon with point blank fragmentation round (yes I know my legs will disappear) filled SPAS-12 because it looked at me funny?

Pls

[thin mantle]

Yes, hence the “balancing towards the smalls”

[tall bronze]

[thin mantle]

Like I don’t think anything below the size of a Pachy or omni should tank a shot at point blank

From a Spas

[tall bronze]

I was actually thinking of snipers the other day and, if achieving guns and using them is done right, being one shot headshot by one as say an Omni is t e c h n i c a l l y no different than say being ambushed by a Rex

Rex was not seen - human was not seen
Rex had to go through the pain of growth - human had to go through the pain of getting the right gun/ammo
Rex had to methodically set up it's attack - human had to methodically set up it's attack
Raptor had no time to react to Rex - Raptor had no time to react to human
Raptor gets one shot by Rex - Raptor gets one shot by headshot

Only difference is that the Rex has an absurdly higher chance to live afterwards to tell the tale as well as if it misses, oh well. If human misses..... 🙂

[thin mantle]

They’re very different…
A rex is massive and much more difficult to hide, the rex needs to get close to the Omni at essentially point blank range without getting either spotted, heard, or simply being noticed charging towards you, upon which you can just…run away since you’re faster…

The circumstances upon which a raptor would have no time to react to a human as compared to a rex would…a human can be hundreds of meters away…the rex cannot, and regardless of the consequences for failure, that doesn’t justify higher results necessarily, that just means you have dumb decisions to make that you simply shouldn’t, so why even mechanically enable those behaviors when all they do is encourage grieving and suicide

Like an Omni shouldn’t oneshot a stego with a pounce simply because if it fails it WILL die

[tall bronze]

Yeah that's why I had stressed the technically 😛 I was just breaking it down a bunch, but I get what ye mean

I use 😛 too much

I definitely would like to stray away from "it's balanced because it's hard". I get enough of that in TF2

Which ironically is from Sniper

[thin mantle]

The minutiae of differences is incredibly important to understand tho, especially when taking into account what humans are…
The idea that you’ll primarily be relying on stealth with firearms being expressly a last resort has been drilled in by the devs numerous times

Firearms are a necessary yet horrible idea to use, I’d like for them to stay that way…

[tall bronze]

Mmmhm. Hopefully situations with a gun being problematic, should they be possible in the first place, end up being one of those issues that are so hard to pull off and require such a perfect scenario to happen that it's effectively never an issue. Like how theoretically, a raptor out of stamina can't run away from a Stego, but that situation is so phenomenally rare that it's effectively non-existent. If that makes sense

Ballistics was confirmed I think, so that by itself could help a lot with things like long-distance gun shots.

Less point and click and more point, click, pray the wind and distance and fall off don't screw you over and even if it hits, haha less damage because far away

[golden coral]

@hexed houndStego can be hunted by omnis, and duos of deinos if they know how to go about it. Sure, the stego can run from the deinos, if it manages, but that's fine, since at least it won't be coming back to try and bother them again. (so no worries about the stego "bullying" the deinos). And if we're looking at "nothing can kill it", then deino is even more invunerable, over a greater period of it's life, and much worse to account for as any playable but stego at that. So if you want the stego to be nerfed, deino needs to be just as nerfed, if not more even, since it's overall the better dino between these two.

[hexed hound]

I have palyed so much deino recently and that statement is just a lie. we were 4 deinos on 1 stego and we pinned him down and bit him yet he sweeped us dealing massive damage and then retreating

also omnis got nerfed and since the hitbox of the tail sweep is very strong it is hard for omnis to hunt it even in big packs, as I have also experienced that.

[golden coral]

No, the statement is true. If you're not capable, that's on you and the others.

[golden coral]

Omnis didn't get nerfed that much really. And most of that wouldn't make much of a difference in difficulty anyway, just drawing out the fight longer, which is not the same thing. So it's perfectly doable, even without a max pack at that.

[hexed hound]

in any way stego cant loose. If the fight is fair he can run away otherwise he is destroying them

[golden coral]

But even if what you claim is true (it's not but anyway), deino has all of that advantage and more, so it's what should be nerfed first if anything.

So you're basically complaining about one "op" playable while ignoring the even more "op" playable.

[golden coral]

Deino can do exactly the same the other way around, even better at that.

[thin mantle]

Significantly better actually

The deino is the one that by necessity begins the engagement

Unless the deino is for some reason on land…even then just turn around and walk for 3 seconds

[golden coral]

Also if you have three or four deinos, you can go after the stego on land and force it to keep avoiding you at the very least.

You just need to have one of you keep using the lunge to stun, and the others to be close enough to capitalize on it.

I wouldn't recommend that if you're only two, but if you have a few more, it can be done.

[hexed hound]

Dein ohas really bad turn he can take a few hit before even beign able to ru nto the water

so deino is so op but you need at least 2 if not more to kill stego ? yo uare contradicting yourself

[frail bobcat]

Are you ignoring the fact that it has instakill matchups for 7/9 playables?

[hexed hound]

And deino has huge limitations on movement since he basically cant get too far from the water and is I think the slowest dino which makes up for his op ness

[hexed hound]

we can argue stego doesnt much more swings to kill most other palyable whil having more movements optiosn than deino since he goes on land which is like 90% of the map not counting beach that is also unfavorable to deino

[frail bobcat]

It does not matter if it cant access 90% of the map

Because all the dinos need to come to it

[tall bronze]

Player sees Stego
Player runs from Stego
Player wins

[hexed hound]

their are a lot of spots where its almost impossible for a dein ot be there and therefore cna avoid the beast

[hexed hound]

doenst mean its balanced since iits on diets and stuff you know so should be killable

[golden coral]

You can survive those hits, that's hardly an issue. And yes, it's "op", because there's far more to what makes a playable "op" than sheer combat ability. If you don't realize that, do remember this is a survival game, not a fighting game.

[frail bobcat]

I think the bajillion deinos in the rivers speak for themselves

[tall bronze]

Young Stegos exist. Teamwork with raptors also exists 😛

Don't get me wrong, I hate that Stego exists right now and would love if it got sent to the stratosphere, but I wouldn't call it OP when you can avoid it so easily. It's about surviving afterall.

[golden coral]

Everyone needs water, so they have to risk a deino interaction in most cases. No one needs to go near a stego. Stego is also very slow, not something you can get to other playables with very well if they pay any form of attention. And yes, deino lunge is superior to stego jab in most cases.

[hexed hound]

young everything exists its nto an argument in the matter since we are talking big stegos

[golden coral]

You know you can hunt smaller stegos right. People need to stop thinking you must kill the fully grown just because it's on the diet.

[frail bobcat]

I just ignore big stegos and be like my idol Anakin Skywalker (I murder the younglings)

[golden coral]

Clearly not...

[golden coral]

Remove both stego and deino, but preferably deino, it causes far more issues (such as map adjusted for it).

[tall bronze]

You shouldn't be going after big Stegos as a Deino then. You have all the power to swim away from em.

[tall bronze]

Both of em getting removed for now of course and replaced with Kentro and Bary respectively is the dream.

[golden coral]

Kentro good animal, better stego!

[dawn falcon]

Dondi said something about moving stego to ai once we get Kentro

[hexed hound]

The fact taht you can run away fro mit doenst make it balanced I dotn get this mindset

[tall bronze]

Mmmhm. Was an idea, but I hope he goes with it.

[golden coral]

Wonder if that'd be permanent or if it'd be playable later down the line again. Though turning it into AI might be even scarier than player stegos honestly. :p

[tall bronze]

That's because the game is about survival. If you live, you're winning. Swimming away helps you live 🤷

[golden coral]

It does when you don't need to interact with it.

[frail bobcat]

Deino is probably the playable I would never want to be removed. Just because of the fear it gives to all the people drinking, deino is the ideal playable for atmosphere.

Balance is horrible

[golden coral]

There's no fear, only annoyance because of how bad the lunge works honestly. Besides, drinking is still terrifying, it always was even back in prog and legacy. People just for some reason entirely forget that carnivores hunt at lakes for the same reason deino is a danger, because people will need to go drink there at some point.

This whole idea that "deino is needed to make drinking scary" is just outright wrong. Carnivores will hunt where the targets are, and someone drinking and worrying about being jumped will worry, no matter where that jump may come from.

[tall bronze]

Being tense while drinking because of Deino is okay, but you can achieve that with camera lock now especially if it's fixed to work properly

Deino if it gets you is just a jumpscare which isn't true fear. It's also immediately washed away by "welp, guess I can't play"

[golden coral]

Hunting around a lake is a guaranteed "I will find people here", because drinking is an neccesity. Same with hunting around dietary spots, like old prog plant areas and similar.

Deino also has no proper counter, which is what makes it less of a tense or scary encounter and just annoyance.

[frail bobcat]

Maybe we just feel different about it. But I like the fact that I have to change my behavior because of one playable existing

[golden coral]

I hope he goes for stego being as terrifying as AI as the rex. Just to see all the omnis cry xD

[frail bobcat]

It really needs a counter and more difficult growth

[golden coral]

Yeah, I don't care for that reasoning I don't think. It's like with humans, they exist, suddenly everything has to change because one playable has stupid amount of "reach" and effect. But in deino case its terrible because the limit it imposes. The only "change" is "never drink anywhere but shallow spots".

Which only removes the potential areas to go to if anything, and limits interactions for everything else.

[hexed hound]

In a survival game there also should be a point where you should be scared for your life which isnt the case for stego

[tall bronze]

When it comes to competent Omnis, it can be. But sadly, that's also an issue caused by it just existing right now.

Which it shouldn't.

[hexed hound]

people play carnos now bcs carnos saly omnis hard

[hasty coyote]

juvie stego is honestly the most scared I have felt in this game so far. I don't mean jumpscare fear, more like dread.
Too fat to hide, too small to fight back, too slow to run, but still took like an hour to get to that point. If something big sees me, I'm done.

[hexed hound]

and frankly yes omnis can take one down but wiht those fps in fight its hard to land a RMB

[hexed hound]

jungle, forest, colors to camouflage

[hasty coyote]

all of which I was using, yet I am still forced to run out into the open for food.

[hexed hound]

some of his food is reachable fro mforest and open is risky but if you are playing with a mate it already is less

and if yo uare lucky you will find nutrients not too far from forests

[golden coral]

More so than it is for deino. Again, deino is by far the better playable. Then you got ptera at that. And dryo depending on the circumstances (last patch at least).

Generally I've found that playing with other stegos while trying to grow tends to be more detrimental than not :p

[golden coral]

At least deinos don't need to ever worry about omnis at all, or carnos either really.

[hexed hound]

deino is cannibal therefore any encoutner with a biogger one, given the limtied area where they are its often, could be your last

[golden coral]

And stegos kill stegos. If you want to compare that "the only threat is my own kind", that applies to both stego, deino, and ptera.

[hexed hound]

they very rarely and the area to ru naway is much better

[golden coral]

It's far more common than you might think, and there's not much better escape routes, unless specific circumstances perhaps. But the point still stands, stegos fear other stegos, just like deinos fear other deinos. And a deino never need to fear a stego since it can ignore it, while a stego still has to worry at least a bit about deino unless it drinks in only shallow spots.

No matter how you look at this, deino has far more advantages and are more "op" compared to stego.

That's just how it is. Yet no one seems to mind that, for some strange reason.

[hexed hound]

But there is area to run away tho

like 90% of the map

ive never seen a stego kill another but if yo usay so

[hexed hound]

prolly cuz its not that much yk

[golden coral]

More likely people just wants stego to eat grass and die. Because everything I've said is how it is, that's just a fact. But yeah, I never see omnis complain about not being able to hunt deinos, and even the carnos don't complain about it (that I've seen at least. Maybe there's also some omnis that do want to hunt adult deinos).

[golden coral]

You can't really run away from something that is as fast as you are and have the same stam. You're just going to run in a line/trot in a line until one of you gets bored at best, or the one being chased makes a mistake that allows the chaser to catch up. This can be applied to deino too. There are those that escape others by doing that, just going on land and keep going, until the other deino gives up and goes back.

[maiden temple]

There's tons of stegos that kill other stegos, it's a daily occurence at this point

You can get away from one though, as long as you're both at the same stam % and none or both of you are bleeding

Although now with the diet system it's probably also who has the best stam diet I suppose, the difference might not be enough to make an impact big enough to catch up AND be able to swing enough times to kill though

[fiery ruin]

@astral basalt rn I think pachy is in a good spot but carno and Utah need to be changed

[frail bobcat]

the ram spam is not ok

[fiery ruin]

For pachys or carnos?

[frail bobcat]

pachys

[somber sphinx]

Pachy being able to stun lock teno’s and carnos is not ok

[frail bobcat]

this aswell

[fiery ruin]

Wdym spam ram?

When ramming as a pachy it takes a decent amount of stam how can they spam it?

[frail bobcat]

it can just spam its ram attack and it cant be countered properly because of low endlag on a missed ram

[fiery ruin]

K

[somber sphinx]

I feel pachy shouldn’t be able to stun things 3x it’s size like teno and carno and would be a stagger instead and the stagger would only apply when it fractures the carno or teno

[fiery ruin]

Idk pachys weight but I’m pretty sure that if something of pachys weight rammed into the side of a carno it would stun it or make it stumble

[fiery ruin]

Stagger?

[somber sphinx]

It’s 500kg, I’m fine with it “stunning” carno or teno but not be able to stun lock it and a stagger for me would be better

[somber sphinx]

I mean when I picture it being an actual stagger, I see it as like knockback without flying. You take a few steps in a direction and very briefly you cannot attack. So you headbutt, stagger them back a bit, then run off.

Then of course there's the issues like stun lock being a thing in the first place and a simple tapped headbutt staggering a 1.8T creature

[fiery ruin]

Kk

[somber sphinx]

A stagger I feel should be for those that uses it offensively like pachy, carno and so on but things like teno, magy and so on would have a stun since you walk into them to get stunned

[fiery ruin]

Is it not skill then since before carno was OP I’ve seen 2pachys vs 1 carno go both ways

It’s not like 2 pachys can kill a Carno 100% of the time

[somber sphinx]

Oh right now a pachy can solo a carno

[fiery ruin]

I’ve soloed carnos as a pachy? Not often but if you get a leg or head fracture it’s quite easy to make them run or kill them

[somber sphinx]

If carno ambushes sure but a pachy can still demolish a carno because of the stuns and the dmg buff it got

[fiery ruin]

But one miss ram from a pachy will end it since the carno 3 shots (or 4 i forgot)

[somber sphinx]

The ram recovery is really quick so it could still demolish carno even if it misses

[fiery ruin]

K

[kindred hamlet]

carnos need a debuff, its impossible, pachy vs carno fights almost always go to carno especially with the blunt diet and with the health buff ect.

[golden coral]

@kindred hamletYes, pachy is the prey item to carno, you're not really meant to fight one, much less kill one. Which is still doable considering pachy "stunlock" as long as you get the leg fracture especially. And carno is not meant to ambush, it's terribly designed for that. Not to mention that pachy is tanky, for what it is. Carno is still 4x your size.

[kindred hamlet]

actually, the whole point of a pachy being able to be able to attack is to defend itself, its not supposed to be an easy kill

[golden coral]

And it can defend itself quite well. But the moment you've broken the carnos leg, or even gotten a body fracture now that they're quite good, you're meant to take your leave.

[kindred hamlet]

also carno is skinny where else the pachy is fat

[golden coral]

Pachy is still very much smaller, "skinny" or "fat". Pachy is 500 kg, carno is 1.8T.

[kindred hamlet]

nope, they should be able to kill a carno because a carno can kill SIX pachys with ease

[somber sphinx]

To similar sized animals and a bit over, not something that’s 3x the size of if

[golden coral]

And pachy is currently plenty solid, especially with how the "stun/stagger" work.

[kindred hamlet]

a single carno shouldnt be able to wipe whole herds

[golden coral]

No. You're entirely wrong.

[kindred hamlet]

they do too much damage tho

they 3 shot pachys

[bright oasis]

thats a skill issue m ore than anything tbh

[golden coral]

Yes. They 3 shot omnis as well.

[kindred hamlet]

bro XD

we was all fighting extremely well, we broke everything and he still had tonnes of health

[golden coral]

This is fine, there are some issues with charge hitbox, for sure. But if you had 6 pachies and a single carno somehow got you all, I'm inclined to think that was some skill issue yes.

[kindred hamlet]

we hit him in the head 10 times and he lives

[golden coral]

So you broke everything, and somehow the carno still not only lived, but killed you all?

[kindred hamlet]

and that doesnt even include all the body hits

[bright oasis]

then run away so you ddont die? kinda a no brainer move in a survival game

[golden coral]

Why didn't you just leave?

[kindred hamlet]

he killed some of us before we broke everything

[golden coral]

And then the rest decided not to retreat?

[bright oasis]

and you stayed and fought and died. skill issue

[golden coral]

Also, with how you can stunlock a carno, you... kind of messed up.

[kindred hamlet]

he got lucky that i missed one of my hits then another got stuck between the carnos legs

[kindred hamlet]

blunt diet .-.

[golden coral]

If you really did fracture it entirely, then you kind of had that win if you'd played correctly.

[bright oasis]

whats blunt diet?

[kindred hamlet]

if you have the blutn resist like that carno did the fracture isnt as high

[kindred hamlet]

2 3 dots 1 S diet

[golden coral]

Yes, but that only gives it a bit of fracture resistance. You did say you broke it, so you got through that.

[kindred hamlet]

its op and shouldnt be a thing for carno

[bright oasis]

LOL

[golden coral]

And far as I know, that should not effect the "stagger/stun" anyway.

[bright oasis]

my guy you died due to your own fault.

[kindred hamlet]

also pachys arent supposed to run they fight XD

[golden coral]

Not against something that big they don't

[kindred hamlet]

things like stego and sometimes teno and hypsi are defence herbivores

[bright oasis]

??????

[kindred hamlet]

bro they should be evenly matched since they are both as strong as one another

i think carnos should have less health regardless because they are ambush predators

[golden coral]

What?!

[kindred hamlet]

they both have their ups and downs

[golden coral]

Are you.. what? Are you thinking of omni rather than carno?

[kindred hamlet]

no LOLL

omni isnt even a real dinosaur its made up lmaoo

[golden coral]

Because carno is way stronger than pachy, as it should be. Pachy is powerful, for the small tier it is. Carno is "mid" tier.

And again, carno is not an ambush predator, it was terribly designed for that purpose. It should and is now more of a pursuit predator, which works and fits much better.

[kindred hamlet]

it is an ambush predator lol thats what the charge is for

[bright oasis]

hard to ambush when you're supposed to live in open plains lol

[kindred hamlet]

its supposed to hide in bushes and run out and charge its opponent

[golden coral]

No. It's really not. Thats why we got a better and more useful charge, so you can actually chase things down. Prior charge was rather useless, even for ambushing (but useful in groups on the other hand).

[kindred hamlet]

also if you are talking about how the pachy is a prey item to carno how about deinos and stegos?

and tenos and carnos?

[golden coral]

Again, no. Run down and chase, not "hide and charge". Charge is not a good ambush tool anyway.

[keen plover]

So the fastest creature in the game, with a minute of running stamina and a good bite is meant to hide and ambush things?

[kindred hamlet]

it shouldnt even have good stam

[golden coral]

Hm? Teno isn't really a good prey item for carno. And stego isn't really a good prey item for deino, due to how deino works and is designed.

[keen plover]

Charge is not even an ambush tool anymore

[kindred hamlet]

it wasnt before

[keen plover]

it's a pursuit tool

[kindred hamlet]

Since Carnotaurus would be meant to have poor turning, it would still have to be an ambush predator even with how fast it should be.

[keen plover]

The way current staggers works is what makes pachy win the matchup, however the plan was for carno to always be a class above.

[kindred hamlet]

size doesnt matter lol

[golden coral]

@kindred hamletLook, carno hunts small game. Pachy is small game. Yes, the carno will be a threat, no you're not meant to go "ah yes I can fight this". You're meant to break the leg, or body, and make a run for it, while the carno can't follow effecitvely.

[keen plover]

Even with a broken leg or body, carno was still meant to kill a pachy

[kindred hamlet]

BUT YOU CANT

[golden coral]

But giving it bad turning is terrible for making it a small game hunter, hence why charge turn was increased.

[bright oasis]

[keen plover]

Yes, with the current balance. However that will be corrected eventually

[kindred hamlet]

you cant break carnos bones, thats my point, you can barely even stun it because of the blunt diet

[somber sphinx]

Pachy is strong against similar sized animals and a bit bigger but carno is 3x the size of pachy and pachy should do the hit and run tactic for it not fight it alone

[kindred hamlet]

smh

[golden coral]

Yes, I recall that too. Basically, pachy breaks carno and run = it lives. Pachy breaks carno and stays and fights = it dies.

[golden coral]

You can absolutely break its bones. You did say you guys did it. And are you sure the diet affects the stagger/stun?

[keen plover]

Wtf

How are you losing to a carno? You know you can tap ram to cancel a charge

[bright oasis]

guys actually as hard headed as pachy

[kindred hamlet]

yes?

[keen plover]

Always face the solo carno to kill it

[kindred hamlet]

bro smh

[keen plover]

Diet does not affect staggers/stuns, only fractures

[kindred hamlet]

yes it does LMAO

[golden coral]

Alright, because blunt is just fracture. As in, it should only give the carno resistance to fracture, not affecting the stun/stagger you also have.

[kindred hamlet]

have you not seen the diet?

[kindred hamlet]

it does affect the stun as shown when i fought it

[golden coral]

I have, and I only recall it saying something like 10/15% fracture resistance.

[kindred hamlet]

my bad when 6 of us fought it

[keen plover]

6 OF YOU AND YOU LOST?

[kindred hamlet]

we hit it 10 times in the head and countless more times in the body

and it didnt die? carnos have too much health

[keen plover]

10 times on the head is over 1800hp of damage, that's enough to kill a carno

[kindred hamlet]

sorry i dont usually play bad dinos like pachy XD

[keen plover]

not to mention you gave it other fractures like leg and body

[golden coral]

Alright, in that case I would suggest you might want to put that in as a bug report. Because that does not seem like it should be a thing. Fracture resistance is one thing, stagger/stun something else. Though honestly, pachy shouldnt stun/stagger a carno or teno anyway, that's a problem that allows pachy to solo carno and teno as it stands, which is should not do.

[keen plover]

So even more damage

[kindred hamlet]

THATS MY POINT IT DIDNT DIE SO HOW COMES IT DOESNT "REGISTER"

[golden coral]

But if you guys hit it that much, it seems a bit odd. Are you sure you either landed the hits, or this guy wasn't some kind of hacker then?

[keen plover]

I don't think you know how to use pachy. It's one of the best creatures against carno.

[kindred hamlet]

yeah it did the animation but idk it didnt die

and when i came as a carno to ask his health he said like 60%

[kindred hamlet]

bro not much can even fight a carno XD

only stego deino and teno

[golden coral]

Pachy is one of the better playables right now together with carno and deino.

[keen plover]

Pachy can 100% obliterate a carno, especially in a group of 6. I don't know how that's even possible. 60% hp?

2 Pachys is enough to consistently down 1 carno

[golden coral]

Must have been either a lot of bad hits, or some other issue. Or they just used tap rams/alts maybe?

[kindred hamlet]

also search it up that carnos are ambush predators, devs, youtubers ect agree

[keen plover]

Previous carno, sure

Current carno is more of a pursuit hunter

[golden coral]

Youtubers are irrelevant. Devs have changed the charge to be more of a pursuit style, which is reasonable, since the prior charge was useless against anything with half a braincell.

[somber sphinx]

As it should be

[golden coral]

And yes, if you want something to hunt small game, you need to make it good at hunting said small game. Carno always did struggle with being designed well for its claimed purpose.

[kindred hamlet]

but researchers agree that carno was an ambush predator using hills shrub and Long grass to hide and charge its prey

[golden coral]

And... we're playing a game, with game balance.

[kindred hamlet]

game balance yk

[bright oasis]

they arent making it the exact same as irl carno. game balance and fun comes before realism

[golden coral]

And a niche in the game decided by the devs.

[keen plover]

tbf, we literally have multiple ambush based creatures in the mid tier size

[golden coral]

Such as acro choking things, apparently... :p

[keen plover]

Although not out

[primal adder]

game balance and devs cant even balance the few dinos we have right now properly lmao

[kindred hamlet]

frr

[golden coral]

Well, we're getting there. At least its going the right way, more or less!

[primal adder]

yea, how is making the omniraptor useless the whole patch going the right way?

how is making the carnos basically god tier going the right way?

the aids instacharge?

[bright oasis]

i was hoping the devs would have sized it down a bit to be a mid tier bullyer, but im cool with it choking animals to death like that in the concept. as long as acro gets treated better than it did in legacy, ill be happy lol

[primal adder]

oh and they can buck aswel

[kindred hamlet]

omniraptor should be removed or smth instead of them making up a made up dino XD

[somber sphinx]

Omni is far from useless currently

[golden coral]

It's not useless. Carno isnt "god tier" either. Balance and bugs are not quite the same thing. Omnis and pachies are meant to be prey to carno, this is nothing strange. The small game will struggle with the small game predator. The charge hitbox is an issue, and the accelleration can be argued, but the new charge and how it works is absolutely a step in the right direction for carno if it's meant to hunt small and agile stuff. Same with bucking, since before now, bucking was useless, if not outright detrimental, and cliff/tree meta was the only way to counter pouce. Now at least bucking is the proper counter, more or less, and makes it so omnis have to actually attrition and wear the prey down over time, something they can do with every other critter except carno because they are faster than all those targets (well they cant hunt deino because water, and ptera cause sky).

[keen plover]

Omni needs a bit more tweaking imo

[thin mantle]

This myth needs to die, Omni is very strong rn

[primal adder]

not gonna argue with carno otps tbh

pointless

[keen plover]

Eh, I wouldn't call it that honestly

[golden coral]

With what? Provide an argument or kindly stay out of it. If you have nothing to back up your claims with, then there's no point in talking.

[keen plover]

Omni is pretty bad, but not because of the balance. They just chose the worst roster to add it in.

[golden coral]

Sure, there's issues, or well, carno and pachy is overtuned. But omni is by no means "useless/unplayable" or something.

But yes, the roster is a fine issue as well.

[thin mantle]

In forests it destroys basically everything rn…but yes it’s in a bad roster…actually everything in the roster is misplaced rn…the only ones I’d say aren’t are dryo and teno….

[keen plover]

The moment the anti - omni creatures are balanced around being anti - omni, the thing becomes useless

[golden coral]

Dondi wants his JP raptor, so we're stuck with this. But we will at some point get an accurate utahraptor as well.

[keen plover]

Well not useless, it's still viable, but there ain't much to hunt

[primal adder]

its everyones opinions i said my opinions i still think its pretty unfair how carno is really strong now but whatever when someone is biased then its pointless to have an argument :D

[thin mantle]

Ok THAT’s not true…Omni destroys tenos and carnos in the forests, and a duo of omnis can still kill a stego on their own quite easily

[keen plover]

Actually, I lied. A lot of players don't know how to play as their playable. The ones that do though, gg

[golden coral]

Good thing we're not biased then. Not as if you came off as neutral claiming "omniraptor useless" or "carno god tier" for that matter, you realize that right.

[keen plover]

Why would you go into the forest as a carno though. Also, stego has the ability to now stand in mudpools and use swing. I've done it against multiple raptors

[golden coral]

Most of the playerbase have no clue how to play, no matter their playable. But omnis and deinos are probably among the worst from what I've seen.

[keen plover]

As teno and stego, I just use inclines to snipe omni packs

Pretty easy counter

[golden coral]

Are any of the mudpools aside from oasis actually useful?

Because last I saw them, you don't get the distance to negate a pounce from being in them.

[keen plover]

Oh they can still pounce you

I just mean that you have the avenue now, I vibe near south as stego, so I use whatevers available

[primal adder]

its called opinions

its not biasing

thats how i feel playing the game compared to the last updates

i played as pachy, teno, utah, carno this update mainly and thats how i feel

[golden coral]

No, you made a claim. You then got counter arguments, and for some reason said "no point in talking" instead of providing your own arguments.

[primal adder]

xDDDDDDD

yea because you jump on everyone as if only what you say its right

[thin mantle]

Well….because how else would you kill any…or at least if the omnis have brains in their heads…if the Carno is wanting to hunt omnis…which aside from teno is it’s only actual prey item rn, and if the omnis aren’t stupid they can control where that fight will occur, Carno can as well but at that point the power dynamic is just dictated by terrain…which I’d imagine has always been the goal with that matchup

[somber sphinx]

Yeah, it’s prey cannot buck it off when they are out of stam is a pretty good buff

[golden coral]

When it comes to actual claims, I do strive to provide arguments and reasons to back up those. When it comes to opinions, sure, we can disagree. But I tend to not argue much opinion wise, since well, it's just opinions.

[keen plover]

Ah fair then. I've just never bothered since most raptor players just chase you out into the open to fight. Never once in all these updates have any omni players wanted me to fight them in the forest.

[thin mantle]

It’s a titanic buff that nobody seems to take advantage of despite claiming Omni is so weak

[bright oasis]

no they arent' they're trying to have a discussion, and you're only looking for people to agree with you based on your messages afterwards. "no point in arguing" after they disagreed. if you're looking for an echo chamber, i suggest finding the isle reddit and joining them

[thin mantle]

And that’s because they’re used to being overtuned enough to solo or duo carnos in an open field…fortunately that isn’t possible anymore, but Omni never lost its enormous advantage in forests against carnos

[primal adder]

i just feel like its pointless to argue when you get denied on ur opinion

[somber sphinx]

Yeah, also makes it more pack oriented when hunting big stuff like carno and trying to wear it down with tap pounces and baits

[thin mantle]

At that point discussions would be impossible, if you weren’t allowed to deny the validity of someone else’s opinion you’d never be able to agree or disagree with anything

[primal adder]

you can disagree while u say ur own opinion but not completely deny the others

[keen plover]

No one has really caught up on this either funnily enough. They still go out into the open to fight carnos as a pairing or trio, not realising they have no chance

[thin mantle]

You cannot disagree with someone without denying their take…that’s what disagreement means

[golden coral]

@primal adderI started off say that we're getting there, balance wise. And that it's going the right way. You then immediately went to say "omni useless, carno god tier", with nothing to back it up. I then provided a full reasoning as to why we're going in the right direction, giving examples of how the interactions work and why for example bucking change was good, as well as pointing out how small game will obviously struggle vs small game designed hunter. And then you went "not gonna argue, its pointless".

[thin mantle]

Mhm…which is probably where all the frustration comes from…
It’s entirely based on going into the worst place you could possibly be to fight the animal that counters you the hardest

[frail bobcat]

so the topic is "omni bad, carno god"?

[thin mantle]

Sorta….as always

[frail bobcat]

since update 6 rolled out

[thin mantle]

Yep

[frail bobcat]

fix the bug with the inertia and rework bucking. bam, omni is balanced

[golden coral]

@frail bobcat No, not really. More so that I had the "gall" to say that I think we're going in the right direction with the balancing, and then got told "omni useless". xD

[keen plover]

Omni is still good against teno tbf. The stego matchup is even better for omni in the open. It just has 2 hard counters (meta picks) that everyone plays.

[thin mantle]

It already is balanced…but the inertia bug does need fixing

[golden coral]

Fix the bug, fix the stamina chunk drain, fix the hitbox for charge. Start there and we'll see. I suspect those three thinsg will help immensely.

[keen plover]

Pachy is a complete shutout for omni, don't even bother fighting it

[frail bobcat]

pursuit carno sounds awesome on paper, but the hitbox is funny

[frail bobcat]

atleast for carno and omni

pachy is another story

[golden coral]

The hitbox is dumb yes, just like the hitbox for bite was. But it can hopefully be fixed, because pursuit carno is a great carno.

[frail bobcat]

cheetah carno cool carno

[golden coral]

Oh yes, pachy needs its CC removed! (well, adjusted at least).

[keen plover]

I wonder how they balance carno when gallis out

[thin mantle]

It should only stun on fractures

[hasty coyote]

I think that is what it was planned to do. but if its not supposed to be a hard counter, then omni is likely the one that needs changes.

[keen plover]

Oh that was the plan

Pachy was always meant to be anti - omni

[golden coral]

Honestly, I'd be down for increasing stam drain a lot on charge, if normal run (with normal bad turn radius) has less stamina drain. So carno can move about and look for prey more and better, but is given a much more limited time to actually catch the prey using the charge to boost turn and knock down the small stuff.

[frail bobcat]

maybe like 15 seconds charge time or something like that

[keen plover]

Funnily enough, people don't realise how OP pachy can be in the carno matchup. Literally tap ram and you can get a carno out of the charge and stun it. You even have the time to land a fracture. Likewise, carno has the ability to nuke a pachy.

[golden coral]

@frail bobcatCheetah carno is great, you can roam the plains, run at things, and then you have a limited "I will get you" charge, and if the target jukes you long enough, then they get away. If you land the hit, they get knocked down and you bite them to death. Or at least that's how I imagine it'd go down.

[tall bronze]

Maybe if staggering things actually staggered them and didn't apply a full on "haha no playing for you" stun, it wouldn't be as bad hmmmmmmmm

[thin mantle]

This doesn’t work generally

[golden coral]

Yep.

[hasty coyote]

Yall, I'm still arguing from the pachy perspective, we cant just remove the stuns entirely. Otherwise you get punished for landing your attack. Making it only stun on fracture also is a bit harsh since you would have to rely on body fracture most the time to be enough to save a pachy, but it isnt enough out in the open (where all of pachy's foods are)

I still agree we need something to tune down pachy's stuns (I still want the exponentially increasing stun timer personally) but we can't be too harsh with it either

[alpine sleet]

I have a question, the carno being able to cast its charge ability almost instantly is a bug or intentional game design?

[golden coral]

Stun attack but not movement, or stun movement but not attack?

[hasty coyote]

I think its intentional now

[frail bobcat]

and it is busted af

[golden coral]

I believe it's intentional, but it could be toned down since carno no longer needs to jump things but can actually chase them.

[tall bronze]

I mean it'd at least feel better than "guess I'll die"

I'd rather have some control than none ;o;

Feels cheap otherwise

[alpine sleet]

will they ever patch it or do they want it like that?

[keen plover]

How about if you get a leg fracture, you can't stun anymore

[alpine sleet]

do anyone knows?

[golden coral]

We will be getting balance passes between now and U6.5. So no doubt things will change. But it might also depend on the new map.

Since that will most likely have some effect on how good anything plays and so on.

[frail bobcat]

I think they will patch. basically the whole community complained about the changes in some way

[alpine sleet]

yes thats why i think they will change how it works

[hasty coyote]

It needs the stuns to not tank a hit in return and be chased down because its bleeding. So whatever can help prevent that while pachy gets the first few hits for fractures, but doesnt continue as pachy should have backed off, would work.

[golden coral]

I just hope they patch based on some actual balance vision and goal, not based on "community complaints", because most of the community is not really that capable of making good decisions.

[hasty coyote]

could work

[thin mantle]

If this change didn’t apply to teno it’d be great

[tall bronze]

I just want more flavors of CC ;o;

[thin mantle]

Sure

[frail bobcat]

I hope they listen to the stresstesters, because there are a few people in there that know how balance should work

[hasty coyote]

https://tenor.com/view/im-doing-my-part-serious-stare-gif-11979677

[tall bronze]

Like if a Teno tailslams a Carno, sure that could stun it for a brief moment. But a kick I'd imagine doing a proper stagger where it stumbles back with crappy movement. Think of it like shoving something in L4D2, except they still have a b i t of control.

[golden coral]

Emphasis on "few" people I suppose :p. But even so, I'd much prefer they have a vision to work from, rather than letting those few people decide on their own.

[frail bobcat]

are you in the ST?

[tall bronze]

And of course other changes like adjusting how large something can be for CCing and whatnot

[hasty coyote]

yeah

[thin mantle]

Nah, the attack would only land once since teno can’t reposition for the follow up, it’d effectively nerf its DPS down to a third of what it is now

[frail bobcat]

You know what to do

[tall bronze]

Isn't that how it's combo usually works? 😮 Tailslam then kick? Or is there more ;-;

[hasty coyote]

LETS MAKE PACHY STUN THINGS UP TO 3 TONS AGAIN
LETS GOOOOOO

[tall bronze]

HUH

[frail bobcat]

https://tenor.com/view/paul-rudd-youre-not-supposed-to-do-that-you-should-not-do-that-stop-doing-that-gif-17011205

[thin mantle]

Kick then kick then kick again if your timing is perfect

[tall bronze]

Hmmm

[alpine sleet]

I know that many times the community doesn't know how to balance a game, but if so many people are complaining about Carnos, there must be a reason for it.

[keen plover]

tbf, there are a lot of omni mains in this game so...

[golden coral]

Honestly, the amount of complaints are what, 200 people, out of a what, 6K playerbase/people on discord.

With that said, there are valid complaints, and less valid ones.

[hasty coyote]

you also need to remember those complaining could be a vocal minority.
Like how no body complains about how garbage dryo dodge is, because no one plays it

[tall bronze]

I just don't know if I like the idea of a kick stunning something like Carno <:I I just really wanna save 100% stuns for very specific scenarios.

M a y b e it could be both a stagger and stun? Kick the body = stagger but kick the face = stun? ;o;

[golden coral]

The poor dryo mains, they just deal with things because well, they're dryos after all. :p

[frail bobcat]

poutinnes overall complaint was good

[tall bronze]

Dryo suffers from "I focus on an aspect of the game that is nigh-non-existent right now" syndrome

[keen plover]

Also carno v teno 1 v 1 is still teno favoured from the amount of fights I've had. You just need to consistently face your tail towards them. Although yes. The teno requires more actual skill than the carno. Which can make it suck, also stamina cost on attacks in comparison...

[golden coral]

I saw it, I agree with about half I think, disagree with the rest. So more or less, but that's kind of what I meant. Some points in peoples posts are valid, like the charge hitbox, or pachy CC issues. Some, like "revert carno charge" or "revert bucking", less so, because then we just go back to prior patch which was no good on either of those points.

[hasty coyote]

tail slam could be the major stun/setup move, then you run in to kick for more damage for less stam

[alpine sleet]

i know but if dryo dodge is bad, because of the stam drain, it only affects dryo players but if a carno is op it affects most of the players

[hasty coyote]

dryo being unplayable means that its 1 less food source for the entire roster, and more people instead play the predators, which means even less food for the roster.

[tall bronze]

Perhaps. I definitely don't want to gut things like combos, but at the same time I really don't want 100% stuns to be something you frequently use.

[golden coral]

@hasty coyoteWith the new bleed resist on pachy, plus the new useful body fracture, will a pachy really be run down if bitten by carno? And would it help to gut carno bleed damage in that case? To work around the need for pachy to stun to be fine that is.

[hasty coyote]

stuns still have their place though

[golden coral]

Arguable, to be honest. :p

[alpine sleet]

yes but you know well that doesnt affects you in the same way a carno does

[frail bobcat]

the "gimme update 5" people dont realise it was bad too

[tall bronze]

Like ideally a 100% stun would occur either in extreme/obvious circumstances (like an Omni being knocked down by a Pachy) and not be essentially the only form of CC we have. Think about it.

Knockdown - stunned
Stagger - stunned
Pinned - stunned
Grabbed -stunned

It's all stuns

[golden coral]

No, they think it was fine back then, that's the thing.

[frail bobcat]

which it wasnt

[golden coral]

Oh I agree, but clearly others do not :p

[tall bronze]

Stuns definitely have a place, yeah. But there needs to be more than that. Losing your ability to play the game isn't really uh.....f u n. So you gotta save it and make it something special.

[frail bobcat]

its honestly sad to see

[alpine sleet]

that sounds more like a "well technically dryo also affects most of players too" but we know that wont make you lose your character, unless you play as a dryo ofc

[golden coral]

Yes and no, it makes sense. A lot of people do want to balance based on "I enjoy playing like this/doing this thing, let me do it", rather than the whole roster/niche/ecosystem balance.

[hasty coyote]

Its more the issue that the bleed can be used to track easily. If I fight a carno, trying to get that leg fracture so I can run, and end up having to run into the forest, that carno can just track me down.
With only the body fracture, I have to avoid dying for like 30 seconds, which doesnt sound like much, but it is definitely enough time for a carno to kill a pachy unless it hits the bushes or forest. Plus, if you're bleeding, it can still follow the tracks and keep up somewhat if the pachy decides to sit and heal the bleed.

[golden coral]

I mean, carno affects the critters its meant to affect. And I think there's the problem. Omnis specifically do not quite want to admit they are prey to carnos.

[frail bobcat]

they have a bias, to put it simple

[tall bronze]

Tracking and scent as a whole definitely needs some work.

[hasty coyote]

plus, the bleed resist is quite minor from what I tested briefly, about a 10-20% increase

[golden coral]

But if it has to deal with a legbreak or bodybreak, it'd not do very well at going after you, and with better bleed resist, you can keep running and hide? And/or plan for the carno and wait for it to come after you and give it another bonk from behind a bush or similar? I think my take was more so that maybe making pachy a bit more resilient would allow it to keep moving away, and/or set up a retaliation if the carno keeps coming. And if carno did much less bleed, you might not even have to sit down and recover, was part of the idea there.

[alpine sleet]

they both are each other's prey, who is the prey mostly relies on the pack numbers

[golden coral]

I mean, not really. Omnis can hunt a carno, but it's not a good choice, since carno is meant to hunt them and designed for it (or should be). This is part of the roster issue, that omnis don't really have good targets, aside from teno.

[frail bobcat]

omni was thrown into a roster with a couple of its worst counters

[golden coral]

Yup. And we all suffer for it. I still worry that when ceratopsids and hadrosaurs come in, if omni remains "balanced" to hunt stegos, those others are just doomed. :p

[frail bobcat]

poor trike

[alpine sleet]

idk if it wasnt for the instant charge ability, wich makes bite almost unnecessary for carno players utah's can handle carnos if they know how to play

and carno is meant to be a prey too because its on utahs diet

[keen plover]

Yeah, but the instant charge is almost necessary, since the turn was gutted. You remove that and carno is easy to hunt again

The threat is the instant charge

[frail bobcat]

its probably on omnis diet because they had to decide between carno or deino being on its diet

[keen plover]

Smaller carnos exist 💀

[frail bobcat]

and this

[golden coral]

Omnis shouldn't really be able to "handle" carnos is the thing. A carno in the open plains is something you fear, or should fear at least. Unless you have quite the numbers, 3-4 at least. Though the charge damage could be lowered by a fair amount, so the carno has to land the charge, then kill via bites.

[alpine sleet]

developers said that?

i actually dont know thats why i am asking

[keen plover]

"Stalk the plains as the terrifying Carnotaurus, the absolute nightmare of every small critter as this ravenous mouth-on-legs blitzes across the island. Whilst it lacks maneuverability of the nimble Utahraptor, its insane speed and ability to knock others down more than makes up for it. Be sure to look left and right before crossing the street!"

Essentially the devs take on carno

[hasty coyote]

As I said, the bleed pool is not the issue, its the ability to track. Unless carno bite does less than like 5% bleed to a pachy who just spent half its stam running away from it, that bleed will not heal quickly. The 10-20% bleed resist (from my brief tests) on pachy also don't change it much. If the pachy decides to retaliate against the carno after being chased, and gets bit again, it now has to run away yet again, and lose even more bleed.

That is why pachy relies on leg fracture to basically immediately end the fight, maybe a head fracture and bushes to escape. Which is also good, because it gives carno a good opportunity to take out the pachy in this fight as well, rather than pachy landing 1 attack and instantly having a "get out of jail free card"

[golden coral]

We're operating on what we know of niche/design for the playable, and what makes sense. If they want the carno to be the nightmare of small critters, it needs to be designed that way, and with that comes the danger for said small critters. Which is why I say omnis would be in danger, they are the small critters that carno hunts.

[dawn falcon]

Here we go again with the godforsaken “Carno is an ambusher” feedback

[alpine sleet]

i've always see carnos and utah's as rivals (in pack of course) but if devs dont like it that way then theres nothing i can argue about that i guess

[thin mantle]

They aren’t lmao

[golden coral]

I mean we could gut carno bleed, that would make it do very little I'd imagine. But I do see the issue, I just worry there's no good way to fix the CC. Because I still like the old take that a pachy that breaks and runs, lives. A pachy that breaks and fights, dies.

[keen plover]

I guess a pack can rival a single carno. However 2 - 3 carnos and you should get to running

[alpine sleet]

i agree with that

[thin mantle]

The idea that carnos and omnis are rivals is just……lol

I mean they have to be now since there’s nothing else but in the future

[dawn falcon]

I dont even think Carno should reach 3 pack members. That’s too much, especially with something that can charge.

[golden coral]

You can still rival carno in numbers as omni. That's fine, the issue has been more so that one or two omnis could take carno more often. If there's 4 or more omnis, I'd say a solo carno should be concerned yes.

[golden coral]

Pairs would be fine for me, but the issue there is mostly that charge does CC on things it shouldn't. Poor tenos! :p

[dawn falcon]

At most I’d rather have carnos work in pairs, but be heavily incentivized to cannibalize

[alpine sleet]

well i like it that way too

[keen plover]

Yeah needing only 2 omnis to take down a carno has always been goofy. I guess if this was purely a fighting a game, it would be fine

4 omnis and then you have a chance against a solo carno

[golden coral]

If it was purely a fighting game, we could have everything balanced for 1v1 xD

[alpine sleet]

the only thing i dont like about carnos is there instant charge but i agree they should be able to take 2-3 utah's easily

[thin mantle]

Use trees

[golden coral]

As in, fighting balance 1v1, not survival balance 1v1 (which we should have of course).

[frail bobcat]

btw I saw 5 omnis today that failed to kill a teno

[keen plover]

Instant charge, again, is what is keeping the omnis from not dominating carno.

[golden coral]

I'd argue three if you're good, and have gotten used to the new situation. Maybe not if you're entirely in the open, but with a bit of planning, I'd be wary of three of them. Carno still does bleed a lot, and you tend to use stamina a lot as well, only increasing the bleed risk.