balance-feedback-discussion

[warm saffron]

hell pachy is better off
//and its bugged

[dawn falcon]

Are you still saying tenos damage was nerfed lol

The gentleman and video above proves otherwise

[warm saffron]

it doesnt feel the same as before, i used to main it and was capable of handling myself - now its not the case anymore.

carno wrecks it

[dawn falcon]

Yeah, I am also a teno main. However it’s moreso indirect issues that are affecting it, right now.

[warm saffron]

its faster and wins - its possible for a teno to win but fairly difficult

[warm saffron]

other dinos stats im guessing?

[dawn falcon]

Carnos charge out turns tenos turning, Pachys ram goddamn prioritizes tenos attacks, not to mention a body fractures means teno can only kick and tailslam 4 times

[dawn falcon]

Very much so

[warm saffron]

yeah i figured those two were the issue- Utah isnt ever really a threat to me and well im not dumb enough to fight a stego dhajsdjs

is there plans to fix this stuff?

or is teno just screwed?

[dawn falcon]

Dondi did say there’s going to be a major combat stress test in between 6 and 6.5.
However, when that happens, is another story.
Developers are on break right now, so.

[warm saffron]

shizzle, alright. Thanks for the info!

[dawn falcon]

Example of one of the things included in the stress test will be: Being able to use attacks even without stamina, but they’re slower.

[dawn falcon]

No problem!

[warm saffron]

oh nice!!
That sounds nice

[dawn falcon]

Yeah. I’m hoping there’s a bunch of mechanics to make combat more fun, cause certain aspects are just UGHHH

How does a teno with giant arms stop attacking you when it’s loses all its stamina? Last I heard, an animal is still dangerous even when exhausted.

Lol

[warm saffron]

mhm, just slower and not as hard hitting

wear a horse out and itll still kick your face in

[warm saffron]

actually what do you think could change to balance them out?

[hallow quiver]

Made a more interactive combat with some big creatures
Like Deino can pull stegos on the water, but will need to damage its feet or bite his head first to make it a little confuse

Not a estego tail whiping 10 times and a deino alt bitting 12 and the one who get Lucky or hits 2 or 3 hits before alive

[distant torrent]

worst of all, I wouldn’t doubt if it takes 6 months or longer for anything to actually be updated and changed. just stuck with teno being sucky and not worth growing

[smoky harbor]

no reason to play anything other than a carno every server has 50+ carnos running around

[dawn falcon]

Carno and Pachy?

[alpine plover]

@wispy cave So you want it to be MORE overpowered? 2 Pachys can dominate a server right now.

if there's a full pack of 8 Pachys, there's no point in playing on the server as anything other than a full grown Stego or Deino.

[wispy cave]

I think you're exaggerating, I sent my feedback because pachy in my opinion is a little weak; he is dependent on a group to be someone better.

just my opinion.

It's annoying to depend on groups and other people to have a good gameplay.

[alpine plover]

plus their hitboxes are screwed up. It's hard to get a body shot on them.

[wispy cave]

Because in my opinion pachy is only strong like that.

[alpine plover]

I fought 2 as a full adult Carno before the update and I only killed one, hitting them roughly 7 or 8 times

[smoky harbor]

the problem is there are groups of 5+ carnos you will never win against on pachys

[wispy cave]

exactly.

pachy gained bleed resistance, that was good, but it still lacks some strength...

[alpine plover]

At least people found a way to beat them. Unfortunately it's with the OTHER OPAF dino.

[wispy cave]

But we are referring to pachy

He has to be a little more independent.

[smoky harbor]

stegos and deinos can easily kill carnos but no carno will ever fight them and they have no chase to keep up with carnos

[warm saffron]

Pachy and Carno need a nerf or Tenonto needs a buff.

Pachy and Carno can catch and kill them, easily.

[dusky surge]

@tame jacinth Ptera absolutely does not need a buff, especially to its combat ability

[slim dragon]

Ptera bleeding peck
Yas

[naive raft]

ey did we get any balance changes yet?

[golden coral]

You mean after the recent patch?

[trim sphinx]

love how utterly unplayable utah is now it’s pounce is just straight garbage can’t even use it anymore

[naive raft]

i mean after update 6

is carno still op?

[vapid owl]

I am confused by reading/hearing different things, is the new charge for carno intended or not?

[golden coral]

We've not had another patch no, and I doubt we're getting one, at least not over the holidays. Not to mention that there'll be a balance pass somewhere between now and u6.5, so that might be when we get something new, or for u6.5 itself if the balance pass changes are given then.

[naive raft]

ye carno charge is just too op

[golden coral]

That depends a little on what part of the charge you mean. The hitbox is a bit broken and hit stuff it shouldnt. But the turn increase from what I know is intended, so that charge can be used to "run things down" as it were.

[naive raft]

and utah is trash now

[golden coral]

Omni is not "trash", it's just that pachy and carno are a bit overtuned. Carno hitbox on charge and pachy has similar issues I believe, as well as the fact it can still "stun lock" things.

[vapid owl]

the thing I'm most concerned with is how fast they can charge now, I don't find a way to counter that for teno

they literally walk up to me and charge instantly

The smoother turn I can live with

[golden coral]

That seems about right, teno does struggle. I believe you can, but it's a lot harder now that you can't really dodge and your slam may not override the charge (if it does at all, I honestly dont know, but in prior patches Ive been able to shut down a charge by slamming them). At least it's not quite as terrible as if a pachy finds you :p

But the new charge could probably do with a touch more start up, now that it can actually be used in a chase better. Less ambush and more "I've seen you, I will now run you down" sort of.

Or just don't let it apply knockdown to teno, but only stagger, as well as much less damage overall (also not needed if it works better while chasing to knockdown smaller stuff).

[vapid owl]

I thought carno and teno were probably the most balanced, same tier, dinos in the previous update.

[vapid owl]

for sure! there's plenty of ways this could've been fixed if some carno players found it rough to deal with the charge. I really didn't think this was an intended enchantment for the dino which is why I was shocked haha.

[golden coral]

The new charge turn and possibly the acceleration is probably meant, at least the turn. Now they need to figure out how to deal with the hitboxes, and both carnos and pachys CC. Just wait until you meet an angry pachy, you might just wish for a carno instead then :p

[vapid owl]

bahaha, yes as far as I've read and heard about the pachies i'll probably wish for that! haven't encountered any yet (haven't played much either)

[golden coral]

Yeah, from what I know they can stunlock you, and their ram overrides your attacks.

[vapid owl]

going to have old-oasis flashbacks again from the raging pachy era

[golden coral]

They can do the same to carno, so if you get tired of the carnos hunting you, go pachy and slowly kill them. Fracture their leg, then just wait the "stun cooldown" out, rinse and repeat.

[vapid owl]

as if their stun wasn't hard-core enough from previous updates

[vapid owl]

but wasn't that already a thing in upd 5?

[golden coral]

It was yes, both for teno and carno. It's only worse now, with better hit detection for the pachies and potential hitbox shenanigans for them too and so on.

So it's nothing new, they're just better at it now!

[vapid owl]

oh lord

I've really been missing out these past few weeks, holy

[golden coral]

Pachy CC is the issue, and it does need a rework.

[vapid owl]

might take a break from the game lol

[golden coral]

Nah, just mess around, new growth should make deaths easier to bear. As well as the diet system, so you can try out things. There are fracture resist and bleed resist builds and so on.

[vapid owl]

the growth time is the same though, no? just new buffs depending of which combination of diets you choose from. It doesn't make up for highly unbalanced changed imo. If anything I mighty try utah again, but i'll probably be bulldozed by pachies or carnos lol

[golden coral]

The time is the same from what I know, but the "get 90% of power at the last 10% of growth" is fixed. Now you grow up much faster, so you get enough stats to be out and about earlier. Which should help mitigate the whole "I died, now I have to sit in bush forever" situation. Also yes, the diets give you buffs, and some might be better than others. Especially since you as carni can now eat the organs for all nutris, instead of only the specific critters on your diet list. You could consider trying out a full NV build as omni, play the part of an assassin in the night as it were. Or go full stam regen and be the one to keep pressure on a target the best.

[vapid owl]

I personally like the new diet concept, I've tried a few different combinations on the carnis and herbies I play the most ♥️

i'll go utah for a while until I give up

[azure crescent]

Also juvie speeds were buffed globally

Sub stego now gets to 35 km/h

teno gets to like 43 iirc

carno to 64

[bright oasis]

I heard croc gets 34 on land as well at sub

[trim sphinx]

should have just taken away a bit of bleed dmg from utah not kill it off entirely

[bright oasis]

I'm guessing it's just an issue with stat scaling after the growth rate was fixed. I'm hoping we get a decent patch shortly after devs come back from break

[trim sphinx]

how is utah 3 hit now from pachy

[azure crescent]

It does

[hasty coyote]

you mean 3 knockdowns or 3 rams? ram does 125, so unless they are hitting headshots, it isnt a 3 hit.

[bright oasis]

Utah is designed to be a small pack animal and now plays like one. Dont try 1v1ing adults constantly anymore. That's not survival mentality, that's call of duty mentality.

[alpine plover]

The problem is all these utah players are complaining they aren't decimating the server and the carno is actually playing how you imagine the carno playing.

The issue is the lack of dinos in certain weight classes.

[bright oasis]

That's really the only issue now

[alpine plover]

You're trying to balance dinos in completely different weight classes and it's not going to work.

[hasty coyote]

Plus, I did some minor tests and pachy's bleed is relatively the same. Its like a 10-20% resistance compared to last update, so relatively minor. However, I will prob do more tests to fully confirm it.

[alpine plover]

If they want carno to be an ambush predator, it needs time to setup ambushes and wait. However, they have carno draining food like a mother fer, slightly better than before, and you don't have time to ambush, so the carge skill needs to be an active skill

If they turn Charge into a passive skill like before you have to take down the food drain dramatically on the carno.

[hasty coyote]

My main issues with charge is that they fixed every issue it has at once, now theres basically no counterplay unless you can stun the carno mid-charge. So either increase the stam drain so it isnt spamable, or make the turning somewhere between U5 and U6.

[golden coral]

Some of them a little excessive yes, though sub stego going fast is terrifying and hilarious xD

[frail bobcat]

They like to fix every issue at once (pachy)

[alpine plover]

That's exactly what happened. They FIXED the carno with no balance dinos to keep it in check. It's the land APEX as it technically should be with the current line up.

The issue, to me, is not the carno, it's the lack of dinos.

[hasty coyote]

plus the pachy ram and carno charge interaction is either bugged or was shadow buffed in favor of pachy, neither receive fractures now and only carno takes the damage of a ram.

[frail bobcat]

And body fracture is op now

[alpine plover]

I dodged a carno and a raptor yesterday for a couple minutes each as a Dryo yesterday. I really do not understand the complaints against the Dryo or the carno right now and I'm not even a great player, maybe average.

[golden coral]

Yes, the roster is very much an issue, because it makes it hard to balance things properly when you have things like a small game hunter in a roster of small game only, and then you thrown in two apexes too, and ones that neither the carno nor omni should be good at hunting what so ever. What we need is things like maia, galli, and honestly, trike would also work out.

[frail bobcat]

If something is op, the cause the issue of the thing that is op (and the devs that made it op)

[alpine plover]

Don't know anything about Pachy.

[frail bobcat]

But roster is a issue too

[alpine plover]

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. This game has WEIGHT CLASSES. On top of this Weight Class, you have certain abilities.

This is NOT a BLACK and WHITE balance issue. Stop saying what you're saying. It's wrong.

On top of the weight class, the Tento is the PREY of the Carno. Raptor is too. The Carno is going to hurt you. Howerver, what's the carno prey to? Nothing ..

[hasty coyote]

yeah the issue with body fracture is that unlike any other fracture, it doesnt have an immediate effect, and instead increases in effectiveness as the fight goes on. So it either feels too strong or too weak with basically 0 middle ground.

[golden coral]

Roster is very much the fundamental issue with carno vs the others. Carno is meant to be a small game hunter, so if you introduce it into a roster of small game only, and you balance it for what it should be, it's going to oppress everything else. That's not a balance issue, that's the lack of everything else to keep carno limited, as well as other options aside from being a small game.

(aside from our two apexes that both have their own issue, but if they've kept to the "smalls only" roster, then carno would be undisputed if done correctly)

[frail bobcat]

They had a roster of 56 possible playables and picked some of the worst ones together to make a roster of 9

[golden coral]

Teno shouldn't really be prey for the carno though, to be honest. It's almost as large as it, not exactly small game. One solution could be to make carno only knock down things up to half its weight ,and maybe stagger things up to its own weight. That way a teno will still take a hit, but can then fight back much better.

[golden coral]

Thats kind of what we've ended up with yes.

[alpine plover]

Tento's tail slam nullifies carno charge and lets it get in extra hits. It hurts a lot. Tento does present a challenge to a carno. Remember also the devs do keep some logic in the game, not necessarily pure gameplay mechanics.

In real life ... a Tento would be in trouble against any carno, and the devs do implement this kind of logic.

[frail bobcat]

Yeah true, but this does not justify destroying the balance (cause it cant stay that way)

[golden coral]

It would, as would a cerato, but still. I don't think it's good when carno is meant to focus on small game. Limiting the charge knockdown to only a stagger is still rather terrifying, if not quite as bad.

[alpine plover]

You're right, and I think they should release several dinos before they continue adding mechanics. I think they should release them quickly now that there's a solid foundation in envirma.

[frail bobcat]

And they need to add something that contributes to the balance (no beipi)

[winter iris]

@wise obsidian I am pretty sure that saying that carno bleed resistance has been buffed is a false information

[alpine plover]

Two 2 to 3 seconds pounces had me bleeding badly enough I had to run after a minute or so against 2 raptors. I think the bleed is still pretty strong. As you know, bleeding as a Carno is a death sentence.

[frail bobcat]

Pounce has been actually buffed

Damage/bleedwise

[alpine plover]

What has helped a good bit is the raptors not auto aiming a latch and not being able to pounce from the front.

[golden coral]

Beipi will hunt the deino and cull its pop, obviously! :p

[alpine plover]

However, a common dodge tactic raptors are using now is jumping which is really effective

[hasty coyote]

I'm looking at the patch notes rn, it says otherwise

Latch damage per tick decreased

[alpine plover]

I don't know if you guys have tried that, but several avoid my charges just by jumping.

[frail bobcat]

Isnt that it

Or am i wrong?

[hasty coyote]

no that means it deals less per tick, the stam nerf is somewhere else

[frail bobcat]

I just misread it

So they nerfed basically every aspect of omni, great

[bright oasis]

Its balanced in the size class it belongs in now. What's missing is more of the roster. Omni shouldnt have been punching up as hard as it was solo.

[frail bobcat]

Yeah, but they nerfed it too much. The pounce endlag change is fine, the buck change is too much and the agility change should not have happened in the first place. I am fine with the pounce nerf too

[hallow spire]

Agreed the stam drain is just crazy

[alpine plover]

If they take away the buck changes, they'll have to nerf bleeding more. Like I said 2 or 3 second pounces are still bleeding dramatically.

[golden coral]

The agility is questionable, whatever happened there. The buck was neccesary, that's fine. Before, buck was closer to useless. At best, it was something to use if no terrain at all was available, at worst it was outright detrimental to use, since you just wasted stam and thus would only bleed more when you got pounced again.

Buck should be the main and first counter, not a "last resort" if nothing else works. Unless people truly enjoyed the idea of just standnig next to a cliff or tree, both as the target and the hunters? But I don't think I've seen many people saying that was fun for either side.

[golden coral]

Pretty much, they'd have to nerf the bleed massively, which would probably not go over well either :p

@dusky surgeIf you're upping damage, don't forget to gut bleed! (for carno that is)

[alpine plover]

I also like how they got rid of the blood trails, made it way too easy to kill everything.

[dusky surge]

i think i've done enough to carno with these proposed changes

it'd be too large a hit otherwise imho

i dont want the animal invalidated

[golden coral]

You think it would? I'm not sure, would carno even need bleed with more damage there?

Also I'd like to see a little more speed on dryo, it's a touch slow to be honest. Still slower than omni is fine, but maybe not by so much. Otherwise I think you're pretty spot on honestly!

[dusky surge]

I don't think a bleed nerf will MATTER, I just think that people who like carno will likely already be on the verge when it comes to liking the suggestion. Bleed nerf is salt in the wound

I'm also against overnerfing animals

[alpine plover]

Personally, I just want more dinos in the game. Maybe another land predator that can challenge the carno and the carno challenge it.

I think that would help.

[golden coral]

Eh, not sure I agree there. I don't think carno should rely on bleed at all honestly, it's a quick damage killer, or should be. And I'm not 100% on changing the bucking, except maybe specifically for carno since it can actually pressure the omnis when they're off it.

[dusky surge]

Bleed isn't carno's biggest issue atm, so I didn't address it

It relies a lot more on raw damage than damage that does bleed, due to the strength of its charge

[alpine plover]

Yes, if you're smart, if you are pounced more than twice, you have just enough time to escape as carno.

[dusky surge]

Issue is, I don't think there's a proper animal that can fulfil that position

People say it's cera, but I honestly think cera not only won't be great on the offense, it's too busy minding its own business to care about carno, unless carno actively gets between it and food

[alpine plover]

Isn't the Certatus the same class?

Ceratus, whatever it's called.

[golden coral]

It's not, but I'd still say it's an issue. But we can absolutely start there, though leave the bucking alone and give dryo some more speed, please and thank you!

[dusky surge]

Cerato is much smaller than carno and not really geared to take the fight to carno

[golden coral]

Cerato is a bit smaller yes, and hopefully very defensively focused. On the other hand, this can mean taking food from carnos and limit them that way.

[dusky surge]

Carno takes the fight to cera, or cera challenges for food

[alpine plover]

It sounds like the Cerato would have been the better choice than the Carno to implement in Envirma play testing.

[hallow spire]

😂sorry but the way carnos leg are is just hilarious to me all the time

[dusky surge]

The most cera likely will do is compete for playable spots. People who play cera will likely not be playing carno, so we have less carnos by it just existing

[alpine plover]

Again, the balance is the type of dinos. I just don't think Carno is unbalanced, I just don't feel there's a counter in the ecosystem for the carno. Cerato may have been a better choice for play testing.

[hallow spire]

Yea and during the time it was added there was a lack of “small game” imo for it to hunt

[alpine plover]

Ecosystems are balanced by predators. Since that kind of logic is in this game, that's what you need to balance out some of this stuff.

[hasty coyote]

@dusky surge you realize that removing the stuns entirely would just gut solo pachy out of existence right? If you can't stun carno with ram, the pachy will tank like 2 bites for every ram, which means you get 1 ram and you're immediately at 1/5th of your hp and are now bleeding out while a carno is chasing you with only 1 fracture.

[dusky surge]

you COULD have it that a stagger is done on fracture?

but that seems weird and unintuitive

the issue is, you keep pachy as it is, it's going to be odd and not fit the niche it was built for

and of course, completely obliterate teno without a workaround

[hasty coyote]

gets body fracture then hits the leg and gets body fracture twice...
now you tank hits, you're bleeding, and the carno only has a body fracture

[dusky surge]

i mean, you can out-agile and exhaust the carno. Once you have the fracture, you can either lose the carno (head), out-endure the carno (body), or outrun it (legs)

Or you can just tank the carno, since head also drastically reduces damage

[hasty coyote]

My idea is to just make the stun timer increase with every stun. so like the first 2 rams play out as normal, and allow a pachy to break and run easily still. But if you push your luck, eventually the carno basically becomes immune to stuns

[dusky surge]

That's not great tho

That basically is entirely unintuitive and completely confusing as a mechanic

Because it's an entirely unique effect ONLY for pachy

[hasty coyote]

how is punishing pachy for landing an attack its forced to do any more intuitive?

[dusky surge]

New players will be baffled why stuns that worked before no longer do, and the animal will feel unsatisfying

My only other option is you only get a stagger when you actually fracture

So you can get 3 staggers

And get a safe hit then start running

[hasty coyote]

as I said before, its just going to end up with hitboxes completely screwing over pachy

[dusky surge]

You have to remember how good fractures are in their current state

A fractured leg is a guaranteed escape, and a fractured body will allow you to easily wear the carno out

[slim dragon]

Even better solution : tiered staggers. So a pachy will only deal a light stagger, but still a stagger

[dusky surge]

But that would still probably be oppressive to teno?

[slim dragon]

Also you forgot to mention the changes you suggested for carno were for the charge

[dusky surge]

Oh damn

[hasty coyote]

or you could just make teno's attacks have prio over pachy

[slim dragon]

Not if you can still move when under the effects of a light stagger, OR light staggers don't cancel heavy attacks like a charge or a tailslam

[dusky surge]

Make teno have animation armour on a slam. If it gets staggered while slamming, it'll keep slamming lol

(half joke)

[hasty coyote]

exactly, just give it smash bros super armor lol

[dusky surge]

Honestly, slam having armour makes sense to me. The tail is still coming down

Knockdown beats armour. Armour beats stagger

I still don't like pachy punching up to the extent it currently does

[hasty coyote]

still, the main issue with pachy is that pachy can bully a carno after the leg fracture. Before the leg fracture, pachy just dies to a carno unless it can quickly lose it in the bushes. Maybe I need to see if this is easily possible with gateway, and I'll say fine. Potentially we can do your suggestion with a leg fracture. so once a dino has a leg fracture, it can't be stunned unless by another fracture

[hasty coyote]

I don't like it either, I just don't want pachy to just end up having a pillow for a head and not be able to survive.

[alpine plover]

Literally picking on raptors and carnos right now as Dryo. They don't seem OP.

I just don't get the complaints

Finally died. Good times. Leave it at that.

[errant plinth]

love it when guess doesnt allow people to react to stuff

[frail bobcat]

He blocked you

I guess

[errant plinth]

its a bot lol

just on the fritz or something

[frail bobcat]

Fritz?

[errant plinth]

being glitchy and weird

oh wait nevermind thats only a feature of the general feedback channel guess is a real person lol

was dyno that i was thinking of

[dawn falcon]

This is moreso an experiment with stego balance, but I wouldn’t mind if stegos head took significantly more bleed damage, mainly for the Utah packs in the game right now.
To encourage Utahs to risk their lives trying to bite the head and ramp up the bleed.

And also keep it ramping up

[alpine plover]

@river plover do you have prepatch numbers aswell? Kinda hard to compare

[river plover]

Sadly my spreed sheets were lost in a hard drive failure but I'll see what I can grab. Iirc the water change in September brought a nerf of half damage and half bleed. Kick doing 10% of a resting teno down to 5%. Claws were dropped from 5% to 2.5% and kick/slam damage was reduced to 200-250 the regional damage modifiers made getting precise numbers but it was enough to drop a Utah to almost dead on head hit. I want to say base was at or near 250 without modifiers. I'll also ask others on the eqg if they have the spreed sheets. All I have remade so far are the growth stats for player, what logs show/admins see in games, and the set growth numbers. :Y

[hollow canyon]

I have to say - I find the numbers presented there bizarre

some of them are correct but others just seem wildly off

• Teno Tail-slam on Stego: ----------------------------------------

• Head
  91.67% 6000 * (1-0.9167) = 499.8 damage

How do you get this for the tailslam and then

-- Teno Kick on Stego: ----------------------------------------

• Head
  95.47% 6000 * (1-0.9547) = 271.8 damage
  95.42% 6000 * (1-0.9542) = 274.8 damage

this for the kick?

Did kick somehow deal slightly over half the damage of the tailslam on your test?

How?

[river plover]

It's appears the kick and tail have different crit modifiers. Otherwise I haven't a clue what devs did. Her and I will be doing a series of ten of all teno attacks to carno body, head, tail base, and tail tip and likewise as carno to ten in the hopes of getting an average. But it has me scratching my head too

[hollow canyon]

That's not how it works

there are no different "crit modifiers"

there are no "crits" in this game

What's happening on your test most likely is - you correctly land the tailslam on the head

but the kick clips through another body part making your attack register as something else than a headshot

[river plover]

Pardon regional damage, functionally does the same thing .

[hollow canyon]

because some of the results you're getting are correct while others just randomly suggest a completely different locational

[river plover]

Was side on, if I clipped through the stego head there was nothing but air.

[hollow canyon]

you could've been clipping the neck too, neck iirc has a different modifier than the head

there's no way tailslam does that much more damage than the kick - kick as a matter of fact deals more damage than the slam and that's been the case since U4 ST

actually let me reiterate that - there's no way the kick does that much LESS damage than the tailslam

because the damage of the tailslam in your test is correct, it's the kick that's completely off

[river plover]

Since u4 kick/slam have always done the same damage as each other in my testing xD and there is a way it does that much less damage very easily, devs changed it. 🤷‍♂️ remember we only had a couple minutes to do this and we will test it more throughout but that's what we have

Pardon my phones disdain of spelling

[hollow canyon]

that's not right, the kick has consisntely done more damage than the tailslam since the change in U4 ST, I will run a test on that later on to ensure that this hasn't change but that's how it worked in the past - with the kick doing marginally more damage than the tailslam

you get the correct damage for tailslam most of the time from what I can see:

• Upper tail
  98.33% 6000 * (1-0.9833) = 100.2 damage

• Lower tail
  99.58% 6000 * (1-0.9958) = 25.2 damage

the kick however is all over the place in your results

[river plover]

We played different tenos. <- that is a joke. We may he tested on different patches. They like to shadow patch the game constantly. So who knows what's happened or happening behind their obfuscation

[hollow canyon]

Nah, not really, they don't make shadow changes to damage, if something like that happens it's a bug

but I don't think it's a bug in this case

Tenonto's damage was not changed on this update, it's the same as on the previous one, I've ran only a short test to check how much damage it dishes out vs Carno and it's consisntent with the last update

[river plover]

U5 teno damage was changed 3 or 4 times without a patch note that was brought to me. I gave up reading them one shadow patch means the devs notes aren't ever trustworthy so I don't read them. If I see the patch number change I test every dino again. 🤷 but regardless I'll post numbers later on when I have more data.

[dawn falcon]

People still think tenos damage was nerfed

[hollow canyon]

yea no, it wasn't, the damage of Tenonto stayed consistently the same throughout U5 and 5.5, better yet - the damage has been the same since U4, I entirely expect you to notice changes without a patch note or perhaps even without a patch throughout this update too

[hollow canyon]

I can see what's happening with some of the results you're getting

you get somewhat consistent results on the tailhits but youre body damage is off all the time

I THINK you're clipping the leg hitboxes

but that's just my suspicion

[river plover]

Even if damage wasn't it's potential was since the Stam cost was increased for slam/kick

[dawn falcon]

are you actually kidding me
No it has not

[hollow canyon]

goddamn when?

[river plover]

That is why I do averages. It's one thing to know the base on paper damage but if it's impossible to apply it consistently due to hit box detection then that damage is only on paper and not in practice.

[river plover]

Sometime between October 21 and like a week ago. They use to have 22 slam/kicks like the stego a change that came with u5 now is 12.

Full Stam bar, with triple diet, (u5) ... ... = and ... ... ... for u6, spamming without stop

[hollow canyon]

but... the kick and the slam have a different stamina cost and have ALWAYS had a different stamina cost

[wintry mountain]

What the

[dawn falcon]

^

[hollow canyon]

I'm so confused by what I'm reading

[river plover]

You and I are and have been testing different games the costs have been the same for me since February when I started playing

[wintry mountain]

Stamina cost hasn't been touched since up4 rebalance, what are you on about

[hollow canyon]

^^^

the kicks are 22 si, the tailslams are much more costly though

there's NO WAY you can get 22 tailslams

with one stamina pool

please check it and record it if you do

[river plover]

🤷 this one I'll leave to the devs. I'll have someone else do the damage dealing in my test.

[river plover]

I can't. It was changed months or weeks ago o.o

I believe I've said as much two or three times?

[hollow canyon]

you can't and you couldn't, if you EVER got 22 tailslams before running out of stamina that means someone trolled you hard and used admin commands to restore your stamina during the test

[river plover]

Not sure islanders admins, official, or an empty scope server would? I don't know why we're getting such radically different numbers but you are the only ones saying that info is off/wrong. If I would have thought to record I would have. Going forward I will. I suspect the game may have more troublesome bugs under the hood than I was already aware of. It's unfortunate much of this info has to come from community servers and from what I've been lead to believe devs will not take bug reports from anywhere not the officials. So next time I post I will try to include a YouTube link assuming they don't delete my comment for that. 😬

[hollow canyon]

Please do, especially if you get that many tailslams off, that shouldn't be possible

[river plover]

Until I do testing I removed my balance feedback comment since it may or may not be applicable. I'll repost it after I redo things

[hollow canyon]

goddamn that would be some goddamn buff

Sure, I get it

and trust me I sometimes got wildly different results too but it was pretty much always down to locational

[river plover]

Aye. I've heard that the locational is more of a, how'd the guy put it. Like a heat map of key locations hitting dead center on the hottest spots is the only way to deal full damage otherwise it quickly drops off. Or something to that effect. I don't know how they do it without being able to open up the game in ue4 (I think?) And check it out formyself. XD but it's worked as an analogy for me at least

[quick latch]

utahs stam drain when getting bucked is a little too much you cant keep substantial bleed when one buck drains almost a half of your stam

[wintry mountain]

So prioritize draining the targets stamina via baiting attacks and just cycling pounce to make it buck.

Fiarly simple task when Omni controls all of the engagements minus carno

[swift beacon]

I heard there was fire

[fresh laurel]

I think this balance wave is a nice example of changing too many things at once

[hallow spire]

^^^

[obtuse ocean]

That would require skills, omnis dont like that.

[opaque marten]

the Pteranodon should be much stronger and able to lift Juvis. He is currently a decoration dino

[golden coral]

That's.. kind of what ptera is, it's a fisher and scavenger, and it can still peck juivies to death at that.

[keen plover]

Not every playable should be made for combat...

[golden coral]

Also I'm not sure how good it would be to give anything flying the ability to just grab and fly away with something. Do we need a flying version of lunge? :p

[twilit juniper]

Example, beipi 😅 it’s literally not made for combat

[keen plover]

It kind of is though

[twilit juniper]

Is it 😅?

I thought it’s just a penguin, that has cute animations, it will fold for a troodon/Utah and anything bigger

[keen plover]

At least in monos concept, it's fighting 2 things multiple times larger than it. If it wasn't made for combat, it would have been running

[twilit juniper]

Interesting

True that, but can’t rely 100% on consept art many consept art ideas got scrapped for no reason

[keen plover]

Yeah, but those claws will probs be used to handle things around its size.

Could be different in gameplay, but there is no reason why it shouldn't be a mini glass cannon

[twilit juniper]

It’s very smol, and a penguin, no body armor

Maybe it can defend, but someone or something said that beipi won’t want to leave water

It’s gonna be more on the surface of water then on land

[keen plover]

Could be one for the tiny creatures

Glass cannon for its size range, but obviously gets trumped by larger creatures

[twilit juniper]

Probably yeah, but there’s not many super small Dino’s

It could tussle with troodon I think

Cause a Utah is considered “small”, so what could be even smaller, there’s not much 😅

[keen plover]

True...

[obtuse ocean]

Is that troodons taking on an acro? or something

[slim dragon]

I think beipi is larger than troodon

[slim dragon]

Omnis fighting an alberto

[obtuse ocean]

ahhh

[golden coral]

You sure those are omnis? They look a bit small

[twilit juniper]

Yeah they don’t look like omnis 0-0 that’s troodons

[golden coral]

Considering the alberto just kind of.. steps on them, I don't think those are omnis, but I guess they could be

[twilit juniper]

Too skinny and long faced to be omnis

Devs did say that troodon will be hard to master but very good when mastered

So I’m guessing they meant better than omni 😅

Plus they look like my paralysis demon, so I’m expecting decent things

[slim dragon]

They're closer to omni size than to troodon

[obtuse ocean]

Alberto kinda big guy then

[slim dragon]

Unless I'm overestimating alberto's size, but judging by its size when compared with a teno on the other image I'd say they're omnis

[twilit juniper]

Doesn’t to me, since look at the body of the smaller Dino, there’s no way that’s omni 🤔

[slim dragon]

But also
CONCEPT ART SIZES ARE NOT MEANT TO BE ACCURATE

[twilit juniper]

True

[slim dragon]

Then I base myself off what makes more sense
What could realistically take on an alberto, 4 omnis or 4 troodons ?

[twilit juniper]

But these are omnis with a baby/possibly sub Alberto, which are almost bigger than the Alberto

[golden coral]

I mean, troodons taking on stego you know. :p

Or so people would have it at least!

[golden coral]

Those are all albertos I believe

[slim dragon]

Who ever said troodon should take on a stego ?

[golden coral]

No nvm, they do look like omnis

[golden coral]

You've missed people in Islecord arguing for that? I've seen a good few, can't recall any names, but it's been said at the very least.

[slim dragon]

Bruh

[golden coral]

Oh I agree, but you shouldn't be surprised honestly, you've been around here long enough!

[slim dragon]

Yeah
People were saying cera was the stego killer for a long time after all

[twilit juniper]

they have sickle claws x^x only raptors are known to have those

[slim dragon]

Giga

[golden coral]

I noticed! I'm sorry, I was thinking of the other panel!

[twilit juniper]

its ok ^^;

[twilit juniper]

gigas have a sickle claw?

[golden coral]

I'm not sure, but I think I've heard something about that, or similar at least

[twilit juniper]

they have one at the back of the foot

but its not rlly used for latching onto things, since thats what a sickle claw is for, to pounce and hook it in

[slim dragon]

From what I've gathered a relative of giga (Tyrannotitan I believe ?) Was found with a sickle claw. Since we haven't found giga's feet yet it's possible that it had one as well.

[golden coral]

Not a sickle claw, but something so they would potentially actually kick, which sounds cool

[twilit juniper]

i would be scared to see a giga pounce xD

[golden coral]

That sounds both terrifying and awesome!

[slim dragon]

Yeah
But I don't know what use it would be of for such an enormous animal
Scratching itself maybe, like beavers ? (Beavers have one exceptionnally curved and sharp claw that they use exclusively to scratch themselves)

[somber sphinx]

Those are Omnis, troodon has a skinny build and those raptors are too bulky to be troodon

[alpine plover]

Slightly less saturated night vision, for troodon maybe?

Opinions?

[dusky surge]

after fighting against a pachy group as a tenonto herd, i entirely stand by the idea that pachy has no place staggering creatures 2x greater than itself

the fractures are more than substantial enough for pachy to make a move

pachy vs tenonto is by far the worst balanced matchup in the whole game

[frail bobcat]

I think hypsi vs deino is pretty bad for deino too

[dusky surge]

i get that this is a bit, but not even. Because the hypsi can run away

Like, I understand that there's a joke here, but it doesn't even apply because hypsi has the option to flee. Pachy both outruns and out-endures tenonto

[frail bobcat]

Idk why they didnt fix this a year ago

[dusky surge]

they actually made pachy better at it

3x stam drain just completely removes teno's primary defence mechanism

[hollow canyon]

I've been saying that for a year now

[dusky surge]

i've been agreeing the whole time, but experiencing it for myself is just horrid

[hollow canyon]

Yea I know, having people play Tenonto and making them run into a bloodthirsty-dome-headed little monster would spread the word quick

but yes it's just stupid like the idea that idk an alpaca should be able to stun a bear

[dusky surge]

i genuinely think pachy has no place stunning things over twice its weight, let alone almost 4x

[hollow canyon]

most certainly

as I said it's like an alpaca stunning a bear

[azure crescent]

the most a teno can do to a pachy is like tail slam it if it somehow misses a ram but thats it

i hate the pachy vs teno matchup so much

and just how CC works with pachy

[keen plover]

They haven't experienced it much I'm assuming, since herbi's attacking other herbis is usually disliked by the majority of the community. It's so easy to solo a teno, especially with an ambush as pachy. Imo, current pachy could possibly 2 v 1 and win against teno.

[hollow canyon]

@arctic summit They didn't touch Utah's movement and the queue system is already in the game and has been for some time.

[arctic summit]

lol

[hollow canyon]

It only works when you have 100/100 players

I got to use it... once during this whole time

[arctic summit]

but it never says 100/100

[hollow canyon]

yea once in a blue moon, that needs a fix and idk why they didn't fix that

[dawn falcon]

Ah hell nah, are we going back to saying every creature was nerfed again, aside for dryo

[hollow canyon]

but yea the queue system itself is technically in the game

[arctic summit]

Technically sure, technically there are bird models in the game but we pretend it doesnt exist

[nimble valley]

Yeah I agree with basically all the complaints about update 6’s balancing why did Utah need a nerf the balancing in u5 was completely fine

[thin mantle]

hehe....update 5 was not fine

Omni could duo a stego

[dusky surge]

Update 5 balance is anything but fine

IDK why people have such a huge hateboner for U6 carno when Omni was as, if not more oppressive than it in U5

[keen plover]

Omni in one sense has a better buff iirc

When a creature is out of stam, they can't buck you.

It happened twice to me oddly enough, so I doubt it's a bug (although bugs can happen multiple times )

Nvm, it's in the patchnotes

• Made bucking ability end when out of stamina

That's a decent buff to omni

Once a creatures stam is drained, it's over.

[hollow canyon]

Omni was anything but fine, its nerf may have potentially been to hard(or should I say - the bucking buff may have been too strong) but it definitely needed to be toned way down.

[stone garden]

Bucking was made to strong, raptor is garbage again. Carno killed 8 raptors solo and walked away anyone who pounced was instantly bucked and killed. I believe pounce and bucking was spot on before change.

[bright oasis]

sounds like you were only good at right clicking before. pounce is harder to use on playables bigger than you, as it should be. if 8 raptors cant fight one carno in a coordinated pack, maybe thats a skill issue from relying on broken mechanics and not a "bad" playable

[brittle path]

i only manage to pounce if i get within 0 range, even if the jumps lands on the pray, it doesnt seem to connect.

[twilit juniper]

I’m so glad I’m seeing more and more people who don’t instantly go “Omni unplayable, Nerf carno and revert everything” Yes everything is a bit overturned right now, but goddamn do I hate the people that think Utah should be able to kill everything with enough skill, or that it should decimate something that is meant to decimate IT realistically. (Since y’know, carno hunts small game as a small/mid tier, and Omni is perfect example of small game)

I am seeing less brainless ppl in here everyday, I’m glad (Atleast the times I do read balance discussion), I just hope no one takes offense to it. I more so mean brainless as ppl who think balance should be balanced around how something can kill something, our case, how omni can or can’t kill something. When it should be more about the games/dinosaurs balance.
Shocker ppl, bad/not “fair” matchups are allowed to exist 💀👍 a rabbit will never stand a chance against a fox. Some Dino matchups will simply be better for some, and worse for others. Doesn’t mean it’s instantly “unplayable/unviable”.
Omni just simply doesn’t have a good matchup with our roster atm..

I get that the carno overpopulation isn’t fun rn, frankly im not playing much cause of it too as a carno main, but I don’t think it’s the dinosaurs fault =
it’s just that MOST people want the strongest, easiest pvp dino and just go around killing everything,
Why else do you think there was an overpopulation of Omnis in UP5-5.5 “totally coincidentally” after it got a huge buff 👁️👁️

[golden coral]

I wish people would stop with the whole "just revert x", that's not ideal at all. If we revert carno changes, it'll go back to being bad at hunting small game. If we revert dryo, does that also include removing the new dodge since we didn't have that before. And so on. Instead, try and focus on what to work with from what we have, and try to understand that some changes weren't neccesarily for buff/nerf purposes but to get something to a position it should be in the ecosystem (carno vs the small stuff) or to make a mechanic do it's purpose properly (bucking). At times it kind of feel like peoples feedback relates mostly to "this is how I want it" purely based on how they feel something should work, with no thought into if it makes sense or not, or if it aligns with the goal of the game and so on.

[dusky surge]

"A skilled utah should be allowed to 1v1 a rex!"

This mindset and playstyle is one of the many reasons legacy is so godawful

[twilit juniper]

Won’t be able to get rid of all of those people sadly. Every community has its flaws, even the best ones.

[dusky surge]

yea

omni needs work, i wont lie, but the fact that people are upset that the ability to fell carnos and tenos with "skill" is gone is kinda absurd imho

Omni also got shadowbuffed by bucking not working while stam is out. The new playstyle for omni is absolutely wear down and tear down

[twilit juniper]

Ofc, even in my text, I didn’t deny it needs changing cause everything is overturned but not reverted (not actually everything ofc, but “everything” from those peoples mindsets)

[dusky surge]

You want to get your prey to waste stam on missed hit and bucks, until they have no more stam and get torn down

It's def a way more interesting way to go about it

[twilit juniper]

For me too imo, Utah in 5.5 was just click right click in the general direction of the target, easy get on, easy get off and just run around it. I don’t consider that skillful

[ripe spruce]

So you think pachy soloing carnos and tenos now is good yeah?

[dusky surge]

Pachy could always solo tenos

It's actually stupid how easy it is for pachy to kill a teno

Worst balanced matchup in the game

[twilit juniper]

I’m 50/50 on it personally teno is bulkier but it’s a small tier just like pachy

[dusky surge]

It's not a small tier

[twilit juniper]

I wouldn’t consider teno mid tier, it will get bodied by things like allo that is mid tier

[obtuse ocean]

Strong and big is not always the easiest ones, speedy ones are normally easier ones to survive with : P

[dusky surge]

Teno is quite literally over 3x the size of pachy. There is zero argument to be made for it to get THIS hard countered by pachy

[ripe spruce]

Why do u think its not right for a skilled player to down a carno solo?

[golden coral]

Which sounds a lot better and a lot more fitting, you know, playing smart and using tricks. Instead of just relying on dryo level agility and thinking that is somehow the "skill".

[twilit juniper]

I wasn’t denying it fully, that’s why I said 50/50 x-x Srry ig

[dusky surge]

Because omni is a pack animal, not a "lone wolf epic murderhunter that can punch up four times its own size >:)"

You now need to rely on forcing the carno to make foolish mistakes and outwit it

Wait for it to tire itself out, then strike

You know...

Skilled play

[golden coral]

No, but that is due to pachy CC, it could do that before, there's no change in those matchups aside from pachy doing it better now.

[twilit juniper]

I’m pretty sure in a real life environment, a Omni would think twice about attacking something that large compared to it

Especially solo

[dusky surge]

100%, but they LOVE the feeling of killing something they have no right killing

[golden coral]

Because it was never about skill. And because of the roles omni vs carno plays, their place in the ecosystem, and how the game in general should work.

[obtuse ocean]

Well to be honest, i mean i can drink coffee and eat food while fighting larger prey who dont have speed. Since the only thing i need to worry about is my timing. Not that they are reacting aggressively . In legacy i had to constantly move/avoid and attack.

[golden coral]

Just so!

[ripe spruce]

Exactly! So soloing 1 is very hard indeed! Hardly anyone could!

[dusky surge]

No...

The issue was that basically anyone could.

It was SO EASY it was sad

[twilit juniper]

👆

[ripe spruce]

Pachy is also a pack animal but they can still solo stuff

[dusky surge]

Pounce is a magnet, recovery is instant, bleed is BRUTAL and carno takes SO MUCH bleed damage

It was RIDICULOUSLY easy to 1v1 a carno

[obtuse ocean]

Rex was easy when i finally got close enough to attack. But damn i had a hard time getting close without beeing seen tho lol

[golden coral]

Pretty much, you have the speed, you control the engagement entirely.

[dusky surge]

U5.5, omni was the favoured animal in a fight between carno and itself, which is just... Ridiculous

[ripe spruce]

That's what we were doing before

[dusky surge]

U5.5 was not skilled

[golden coral]

Because working in groups only works on the offense, not the defesense, otherwise you get legacy para. There's a difference there, also pachy being able to solo tenos and carnos are bad, I don't think any of us think those 1v1 matchups are good.

[dusky surge]

I'm sorry, I am an omni player, but omni was so stupid easy in 5.5 I cannot believe people genuinely believe it was a skilled gameplay

[obtuse ocean]

I killed carnos solo as omni before the update, i honestly think im the worste omni player to ever touch the isle

[golden coral]

People truly believe that the second best terrestial critter aside from dryo is somehow the one that requires the most "skill". Despite the fact that dryo was even more "brainless" to use than omni.

[golden coral]

It wasn't no, omni was almost as easy to play as dryo, and dryo was the easiest and simplest of the terrestials to be.

[dusky surge]

Look at thing
Press RMB
Hold RMB until stam low
Run away and watch them bleed at insane levels
Get stam back
They are bleeding so their stam recovery is heavily reduced from the bleed
You recover faster
Repeat until prey is dead

Even if you messed up the pounce, you recovered SO FAST that it didn't matter. I liked the skilled play of omni, but 5.5 omni was not skilled. At all. Took a lot of the fun out of it for me

[ripe spruce]

So why change the utah and make it worse but not the pachy

[twilit juniper]

(More infuriating to me that ppl still think omni CANNOT have unfair/bad matchups by NATURE)

[obtuse ocean]

This is perfect explained, im so afraid that this gonna be a thing.

[golden coral]

Because the issue with pachy is its CC/stunlocking.

[dusky surge]

This is because it's squishy. Basically, they think being a glass cannon justifies it being a glass nuke

[twilit juniper]

Yeeeah.. 💀

[dusky surge]

"Oh it dies in one hit"

Except omni can EASILY evade most attacks in the game, and controls most engagements with its superior stam, speed and agility

[twilit juniper]

Not currently, since of the broken hit box of the charge, but overall, yes it very much can 👍

[ripe spruce]

Have you ever tried to solo a carno as utah in the last update?

[dusky surge]

Omni has ALWAYS had this advantage, it can choose the tempo of the fight better than any other terrestrial predator. Carno's turn radius can open it up to attack, as well as it's lower stam/trotting stam regen. Omni has no such issue, its endurance and mobility are currently unmatched

[twilit juniper]

Absolutely

[dusky surge]

A solo omni NEEDS to be vulnerable

It should prosper in packs and play more as a scavenger/small game hunter as a solo

[obtuse ocean]

Problem is that utah players will try to solo a carno, in reality it should be running the split second it sees a carno. Thats how i feel balance should be

[dusky surge]

A solo omni should NOT make a carno/teno genuinely afraid

[ripe spruce]

So what your basically saying is , no one is allowed to be the best utah anymore

[dusky surge]

Lmao no??

[keen plover]

This. You shouldn't go into the plains and expect to fight whatever as an omni

Solo that is *

[dusky surge]

This mindset is genuinely harming the animal lol

[keen plover]

Yeah

Omni / utahraptor had this player mindset from legacy

[ripe spruce]

What????

[obtuse ocean]

But even in packs you need to fear something as omni, you cant have the luxery to run around just picking targets without the fear of getting caught off guard.

[keen plover]

Its always been the go to "I must kill everything with skill"

[twilit juniper]

(Remember, it’s about the animal and how it would function as if it was still alive irl, not a game killing machine)

[dusky surge]

I am australian. I play on 200 ping and am genuinely not the best at this game. I managed to fell several carnos and tenos as a solo omni. You cannot tell me that's okay

[golden coral]

No, why would I, I didnt before either, because I never thought I should. I play survival, not some combat sim. So I balance for survival, not combat. I reckognize cano as the main predator and therefor I avoid it unless in packs and in a favourable position (as in not in the open plains preferably).

[keen plover]

They take the playable as a fighting character and not a creature that has a role in a survival game

[ripe spruce]

Lmao omg are u serious? How many players did u know who could solo an adult carno solo as utah?

[golden coral]

There's no "best omni". You can still be "skilled" or "good", that hasn't changed. What has changed, if anything, is what you can reasonably achieve. Which is fine. This is a survival game, not a fighting game.

[obtuse ocean]

I saw in one concept art that Bary i think grabbed a pouncing omni, i hope that is a thing

[dusky surge]

It's not about who could, it's about who would. Lots of people were too scared to do it, but once you figure out how to do it, it quickly goes from daunting to easy

[golden coral]

Being squishy have nothing to do with skill of the playable. People need to stop thinking like that, it's just not how things work.

[keen plover]

2 omnis were enough to consistently drop the majority of carno players

[ripe spruce]

This is a game! Not rl

[golden coral]

Yes, exactly so.

[keen plover]

Omni's only weakness last patch was simply to not get hit.

[twilit juniper]

Yeah but it’s not about combat, it’s not a horror fighting game, it’s a horror SURVIVAL game

[dusky surge]

I played in the stress test, and versed two omnis as an adult teno. They didn't kill me, but had they had more skilled omnis on their team, they likely could've. It was actually crazy how determined and skilled they were, it was a good fight.

[dusky surge]

And games need to be balanced

[plain iris]

Favorable position is the plains, forests are where you run when things go bad

[dusky surge]

Real life has snakes that can bite an animal over 50x their size and kill it. That's not balanced for a videogame

[ripe spruce]

How was it not. How many ppl were taking down carnos on their own?

[dusky surge]

More than there should've been

[golden coral]

Omni is not favoured on the plains vs the plains predator that carno is. Vs a stego or something, sure, teno, sure. Carno, no.

[twilit juniper]

Why do you think there was a mass overpopulation of Omnis as SOON as it got a buff.. because it became easy to kill things and people want easy kills..

[golden coral]

Also I got a full response for you!

@plain iris Balance 5.5 was not better no, at the very least barely better. First off, the turn changes (if there are any) does not seem to have been meant, so that's more of a bug. The issue with carno hitbox and other (omni pounce and so on), is just that, an issue. But the charge turn is good for carno, it needed that to work as it should. Bucking changes were absolutely needed, before this bucking was almost useless, instead of an actual counter. You can still pounce, just do shorter ones. However, the stam being drained in chunks is a badthing and should be changed. If it drained more like stam drain when spriting, you'd have much better reaction times. Omni was not great where it was at, it could do stuff it really shouldnt, and was one of the most "brainless" and easy playables in general of the terrestials. Magnetic pounce, massive bleed, bucking useless, carno terrible at hunting them instead of good, and so on. Omni was very much bordering on op in the last patch. Omni is still relevant too, you can still play just fine, and you need to give it some time to adjust to the new style of pouncing, and to well, avoid carnos more often than not since they are your main predator.

[keen plover]

Imo, unless the player doesn't know how to play, a carno should always beat a solo omni. That's what the balance should be

[golden coral]

The fact that people could is the issue.

[twilit juniper]

Damn this was a good response

[ripe spruce]

How many carnos stegs and tenos did u solo as utah then?

[golden coral]

I don't know how to phrase this better. If you're a solo omni on the plains, and you see the main predator, small game hunter, that carno is, your only option should be to run away.

Not fight. You're not meant to fight 1v1 omni vs carno, no matter your "skill".

[twilit juniper]

Especially stego 0-0

[plain iris]

Maybe if it was real life, but it's not. A tree will knock you off and kill you in the forest. You can maintain distance in a field however, and attack when it suits you

[ripe spruce]

Then you killed complete noobs

[golden coral]

The animal is three times your size, and designed to hunt small game, it's not an allo or alberto, or a para. It's an animal designed to hunt your kind of plyable.

[dusky surge]

Shockingly, I don't play The Isle to categorise each and every kill I have ever gotten, I play for casual fun, mostly with friends. I would say maybe, 5+? Can't expect me to remember this, what exactly is the argument you are trying to make here?

[obtuse ocean]

The problem is that a carno shouldt fear omnis even in packs, ofcourse up to a certain point. But what are you gonna fear as omni? Carnos is more or less the only thing that can catch you off guard.

[golden coral]

Tap pouncing. And specifically vs carno you don't want to be in the open. Vs stego or teno, or even pachy (especially pachy I'd say) you can be in the open.

Remember, different playables, different approaches. This should also be a given.

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but im also a complete noob as omni

[dusky surge]

I feel like this should be said, because you may be getting the wrong idea here, but I DON'T want omni to stay as-is. I also, don't want omni to revert back to its god-killing state. I would rather they go this direction and build off it, not throw it all in the trash to appease the people who want to have their David and Goliath fantasy

[golden coral]

Or maybe the omni really is that simple to play. How come it's always everyone else that has "skill issues" to you and never that you have the second easiest playable in the game?

[keen plover]

Yeah, likewise, carno needs tweaking. However a solo omni should never have a chance against a carno. 3 and it should be a tough to equal fight

[golden coral]

Pretty much Bird, 2-4 omnis, 2 being carno advantaged, 4 making the carno regret it.

But one omni should never be a threat to a carno in the open plains.

[ripe spruce]

So you think it's good that a omni player now has to hide in the forests as can't go out in the open anymore as a carno will kill it

[dusky surge]

I doubt we're going to make a dent in their views, it's more than likely they're completely headstrong in their viewpoint that "rexkiller" omni should be both reverted to as it was and buffed furthermore to complete the task of eradicating every animal, large and small

[keen plover]

Ah... yes. If you're not in a pack, get to hiding

[obtuse ocean]

yes, and thank for that. Wy should you as a omni have the luxery to do whatever you want without fear of getting caught off guard.

[dusky surge]

"This just in, person mains small-tier, realises that small-tier might need to play stealthy around large threats"

[twilit juniper]

Literally this

[keen plover]

They reduced base growth as well, so you can grow quicker. So that's a plus, right? 💀

[golden coral]

Yes. Just like how everyone else had to use terrain to counter pounce in the last patch. That was fine with you omnis then I recall, though you also liked to call everyone using terrain cowards. But I'll excuse that stupidity for now.

[golden coral]

Yeah, that does seem the case.

[dusky surge]

It's literally one of the smallest predators on the island, and you want it to be fearless in the face of threats meant to dominate the foodchain

[golden coral]

Think like a dryo!

[obtuse ocean]

You can prob avoid and choose 90% of the rooster what to attack and what not as omni. To kill something should be though if its larger.

[frail bobcat]

Its more than 90%

[ripe spruce]

Well yes you are. Look at it from our point of view. Yes the majority of utah players DID need a big pack to kill carnos, but what if one of those players wants to be the better than all the other utahs. What if that player wants to be the best? That player wants to find a way to take that carno solo and be the best. Someone ppl look to in awe and want to be just like him. Now that is a satisfying game

[golden coral]

Is it? Carno is the only one that omnis don't outspeed. I guess deino if we consider the RNG lunge, but well, that goes for everyone. Deino is a problem all of it's own.

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but also in the future its not gonna be much it cant attack or chase down

[keen plover]

Galli herds

[golden coral]

The majority of omni players are really bad so that means nothing. You can be better, even the best, but that does not grant yuou leeway to do whatever you want in the game. Same with any other playable. How is this difficult to grasp? Why do you think that you should be allowed to do x or y jsust because you're "good". That's not how games work, not even fighting games work like that.

You are basically arguing that your "skill", nonexistant as it is in 99% of the cases, should allow you to break the ecosystem. How does this make any sense to you?

Should we let a skilled rex solo an entire trike herd?

Because well, it's "skilled", right, so I guess no balance then.

[dusky surge]

That's not satisfying for the opponent. You are looking through an entirely selfish lens. You can still be a good omni, baiting attacks, weaving through enemies, getting vital pounce, draining your opponent's stamina. This is still possible, but you should NOT be expected to be killing these creatures on your lonesome. Let your actions inspire your pack, don't play without them, play with them, leadership is a skill, teamwork is a skill, coordination is a skill.

Be a skilled player.

[keen plover]

^ Last update, a lot of solo raptors attempted to hunt me as a carno (they lost, but the mindset was there.) Now they run. Imo, that's how the dynamic should be

[golden coral]

You can't argue that you can't be good, or skilled, with a playable unless you get to fight and kill whatever you think fits. Thats not how it works. I want to be a really good hererra, I still don't think that means I should kill stuff above my weight class.

You can still be a really good omni, that has not changed, nor will it. The only thing that has changed is what you can achieve, being "skilled".

Also we do balance based on the best players, as we should, so there is that too.

If the best omni can solo a carno, then there's a balance issue, simple as that.

[plain iris]

Tap pouncing still constitutes an unnecessary risk, but i do get your pov and have done it myself.

As for your response to my feedback at the bottom i mentioned it could've at least been a start. I know omni was borderline OP, it was obviously overperforming. But massively buffing stam damage compared to what it was on top of nerfing pounces damage is too much.

Regardless, most of your points i addressed. Magnetic pounce needed nerfed, missed pounces needed punished, carno/pachy needed increased bleed resist, bucking was fine but could used a small buff, now its OP.

These things don't take experts, but just because a good omni can do things with one that most others can't don't mean it needs nerfed into the ground.

[ripe spruce]

It wasn't that easy! Your making it sound like you just needed to practise solo for a week then u cracked it. No no no no no. I was practising for 3 months and still couldn't do it. But what kept me addicted to the game was to keep trying

[twilit juniper]

I rlly want them to answer this whole thing, it really puts it into perspective

Don’t ignore it

[obtuse ocean]

if they are afk growing yes : )

[twilit juniper]

Dam

[dusky surge]

Practice working with packs, I don't see why you're so discouraged from playing with others as an animal designed to do so

[golden coral]

Fair, just pointed out a few things I disagreed with. Like I said charge for carno needed to be good so it can actually be the small game hunter it should be and prior charge well, you only hit afk players or distracted ones, it was useless for chasing the small game you should chase. And bucking needed to be useful and viable. Last patch, bucking was a death sentence more often than not (and never as good as just standing next to terrain) when it should be primary counter.

The thing is though, we balance for what good players can do. And omni isn't nerfed into the ground, it's not as bad as people make it out to be, and some of the issues are bugs or otherwise not balance related, such as carno charge hitbox, or the "turn" whatever that has happened there. And the stamina drain might be fine if it didn't drain in chunks, so there's something to keep in mind too.

[keen plover]

Please don't play the pack hunter if you're only going to play solo (unless you want to hunt similar sized creatures and smaller)

[twilit juniper]

Balance isn’t about what can kill this or that, it’s about how the animal would act realistically

[ripe spruce]

And now their is an overpopulation of carnos and pachys because ppl want easy kills. Wheres the balance?

[golden coral]

Because they really value their own "skill" for their.. ego I guess.

[ripe spruce]

Then the carnos were rubbish!

[twilit juniper]

That doesn’t make it unbalanced, it just means people want to play easier kill Dino. Carno and Utah aren’t balanced right now, but it shouldn’t be entirely reverted to the point where a Utah can solo something DESIGNED to hunt it

[keen plover]

I get it. You don't want balance. You only want Omni to be the one causing the issues

[golden coral]

I just don't understand the argument of "I can't be a good omni now", like yes you can. Being good or bad at your playable has nothing to do with what the playable can do.

[ripe spruce]

Then I'm not even gonna read your comment as u have no idea what I am talking about

[keen plover]

There's a reason why all the meta players have switched over from omni to pachy & carno. I promise it wasn't skill.

[golden coral]

I do, I know all that I need.

You just refuse to actually think about things.

[twilit juniper]

I don’t get why we’re all even arguing about this X-X it should be common sense

Carno is so much bigger, and even designed to hunt small game

That should say enough

(Enough about how 2 creatures should interact realistically)

[golden coral]

Claiming that you can't be good at omni anymore because you can no longer do what you used to. As if good with a playable relates to what it can do. That's not how balance works. That's not how things work in general. If you can't understand how reality worsk then maybe you should start there. You can still strive to be a good omni player, just like any other playable can strive to be good with theirs. This has not, and will not change, no matter what the omni is capable of doing or not, since it can still do things.

[twilit juniper]

Not how the human wants the animal to work

[golden coral]

So the whole delusion about "I can't be good anymore" is just that, a delusion, a lack of understanding concerning how things work.

[ripe spruce]

But it's not lol

[ripe spruce]

Very few could and it took a long time. Something that u know nothing about as you've never tried it

[golden coral]

It didn't take half as long as you claim, and that I know because I do play omni as well. Just because I prefer to not take unneccesarily dangerous actions does not mean I can't do them, or don't know how to do them.

[keen plover]

Ok. In your eyes, what should the balance be like

For all the creatures. I just need to see it

[golden coral]

But also, I don't need to, plenty of other people have shown it, on both sides. And stats and mechanics at that, tells me how things work out.

[ripe spruce]

And your not understanding what players WANT. Some actually found it a good challenge to do it

[plain iris]

I get it, carnos charge may very well not be as bad as it seems (the ridiculous hitbox it seems). I don't even care about the other buffs done to it, in fact the sustainment is probably a good thing. But with the buffed 0.5 second charge (why?) and turn rate they don't even need it.

Again, i would've suffered a buff to bucking if it was really that bad. Truth be told i didn't play enough herbi enough to get a real feel for how good/bad it was. But honestly i'd rather just take a set stamina hit and get thrown off over what we have now.

No matter what the facts are there, and 90% of the omni population disappeared over the course of a few days while carnos are suddenly everywhere.

[golden coral]

Though honestly, I don't care about that anymore, the fact that you think you can't be a good player because you can't get the result you want has invalidated anything you might possibly say. Because if you're so far gone that you don't understand how skill even works, then there's no hope of settling this in any reasonable manner.

[twilit juniper]

I wish they wouldn’t ignore some points to support they’re own, like Erik’s rex and trike example and some others 💀 but don’t hope too much

[ripe spruce]

Omg! How is it wrong for someone to want to be really good at a game. Oh my god

[keen plover]

Yeah... I don't even care about the points anymore. I'm just trying to see other takes

[twilit juniper]

Well she won’t explain that 💀 to u or us. (Most likely)

[keen plover]

It's fine in that case

[twilit juniper]

I continue sticking to what I said that started this whole conversation to begin with, that I’m happy to see less “brainless” people who only care about combat and not realistic balance or survival. But I was proven wrong again

[golden coral]

The accel I don't know honestly, and I dont think that was needed, now if charge can be used "on the run". That seems more like something you need if you want the carno to be an ambusher (which it shouldnt in my opinion at least). The turn rate on charge was needed if you want the carno to use charge while chasing. And for that matter to hit something that isn't afk or otherwise distracted by group mates. (carno did really well in groups).

I think the bucking is fine, I honestly think its the "chunk" drain that is the issue now. Not the strenght of the bucking, but just how stamina goes in chunks, instead of a steady drain. If it was a steady drain, you'd see and have much better time to react to the bucking. And honestly, I'm down for a more proper bucking and pounce rework anyway, it needs it. Not like current one is much anyway, it's click hold RMB, press and hold E, let go of RMB.

Honestly, the population will recover, it will be fine. This happened when we went from damage to bleed on omni as well. And probably at other times too, we've barely seen tenos at times, then it's been pachies, and so on. And now there's probably even less dryos than anything else. My point is more so that we need to give it time to let people adjust and get used to all the new stuff and to figure out their new approaches, before we can see how it really is.

[golden coral]

At no point have I said its bad to be good at the game, or want to be good. You just don't understand my point.

[ripe spruce]

Lmao OK. Watch how fast the omni population goes down now. No one is gonna play it. Rip lmao. I'm gonna go now as your wasting my time. U will never understand. Not everyone agrees with u I'm afraid. I'm gonna go now and grow my pachys on ever server and kill everything cos that's how the devs want it to be now ☺️

[keen plover]

💀

[golden coral]

As a matter of fact, I'm fine with people being good, current playerbase is pretty bad in general, so we could do with better players. But that has nothing to do with your incredibly strange take on what "skill" is and what "good" should mean resultwise.

[twilit juniper]

Bruh 💀

[keen plover]

I love balance feedback

[twilit juniper]

[golden coral]

Hope you're enjoying then! :D

[obtuse ocean]

But there will be plenty of stuff to 1v1, that is possible to kill if your good. But some will almost be imposible, thats also for the sake of people actually daring to attack you as a pack of omnis. If im allo i shouldt wory about attacking 3 omnis, i should be guy that will hunt and kill omnis. And that goes for everything, its how you get a good ecosystem.

[keen plover]

On another note, Pachy does in fact need rebalancing. Or rather staggers

[frail bobcat]

Omni vs dilo will be a sick fight

[keen plover]

Staggers as a mechanic is pretty awful

[twilit juniper]

It’s no worth arguing with that kind of mindset Erik, Just don’t get heated, unlike someone

[frail bobcat]

Body fracture should get a nerf

[obtuse ocean]

Yea thats gonna be amazing : P I doubt im gonna fight them at night tho : P

[keen plover]

Imo, the fractures are whatever. It's the way the staggers work that's sad. Although yeah, 3x can be bad depending on creature.

[frail bobcat]

With the nightvision build, it could be a pretty fair fight

[obtuse ocean]

oww, thats a good point yea

[frail bobcat]

20 second of sprint stam on carno

[golden coral]

It'll be fine, just like last time, and just like any other playable when they've had a bad time. Tenos, dryos, carnos, and so on. This panic reaction is unncessary. People still play teno, people still play dryo even, and it's far worse off than omni. And again, there's not a lack of understanding in my part, it's you that simply make false claims. But then you don't seem to quite understand how skill works so that is no surprise really. And yes, do have fun with pachy, but I suggest you try dryo or teno, and see how fun that feels, if you think omni is so terrible right now. And sure, not everyone agrees, but not everyone agrees with you either, so, let's call that a draw I guess!

[golden coral]

Yes, pachy CC bad!

[keen plover]

imo, the issue isn't that you have 20 seconds of stamina, rather you have 20 seconds before a pachy staggers you and adds another fracture on top

The staggers making you unable to fight back is awful, not the fractures

[twilit juniper]

Am I dumb but what does cc mean when talking about pachy X-X?

[golden coral]

Dilos are bigger I believe, might not be that fun! :p

[keen plover]

Crowd control

[golden coral]

Crowd control

[twilit juniper]

Ooh ok, thnx 😅

[frail bobcat]

Then omni agility has to shine

But that matchup could be one of the best

[thin mantle]

It directly translates to crowd control but the vernacular in the context of the game usually means Knockdown or Stun

[thin mantle]

Dilos are basically the size of cerato only less chunky

[frail bobcat]

Maybe 700 kg

[thin mantle]

Maybe 1k tbh....it could fall into a range

[golden coral]

Maybe. I honestly don't know how I feel about omni and "same lane" animals. Especially if omni is supposed to be allow to punch up to apexes and all that.

[golden coral]

Last I heard it was something like 900 almost?

[thin mantle]

Mhm that sounds about right...but for balancing purposes it can change wildly....I mean omni used to be 1k back in survival legacy :p

[frail bobcat]

Same lane?

[golden coral]

Ah, term some others I know use. Same size/equivalent.

[obtuse ocean]

I think they made a concept art where some dinos just grabbed a pouncing omni.

[thin mantle]

Ehh....idk I feel like this is a roster issue...because I've been doing testing basically all day and I've done loads of pachy v omni fights...omni is still VERY agile...moreso than pachy as well as being faster...but pachy is able to punish all attempts of an omni trying to gain entry...which is kinda it's whole purpose...so I feel like this is an example of a matchup that is entirely intended to be slighted MASSIVELY to one side over the other

[golden coral]

@frail bobcatAs in, if omnis are meant to hunt rexes and other apexes, I'm not sure they should also be good at hunting same sized opponents.

[thin mantle]

If anything they should be downright incompetent in their own size range

[golden coral]

If they're very good at punching up, very high above their weight class at that, then I'm just not sure how good they should be in their own lane

[frail bobcat]

But they will be dominant to everything below (pin)

[golden coral]

Please don't tell me you think pin is fine as it is?! :p

[thin mantle]

No I know omni is a convoluted walking contradiction

[frail bobcat]

Actually, I like that. A playable strong to basically everything, but its own size range

[thin mantle]

Like omni is one of the most bizarrely conceptualized and implemented animals I've ever seen

[frail bobcat]

Pin is horrible

[thin mantle]

Oh thank god

[frail bobcat]

But even with the supposed rework it will still be pretty strong against smaller stuff

[plain iris]

I think everyone can agree old pin was horrible

[golden coral]

Just so! :D

[obtuse ocean]

Imagine all the stuff they gonna add, i mean a spino can flip an anky. Im prob gonna die to a spino flipping me from the front teleporting to the side

[golden coral]

I don't think we're going to get that ingame, but we'll see!

[thin mantle]

Then it should probably specialize in small apexes and mid tiers....which is what it does now...and leave the larger dinos alone...since it's already so effective against almost everything in it's tier....

[frail bobcat]

I really hope that this move is only gonna be a finisher

[obtuse ocean]

It did in the concept : P

[thin mantle]

Hehe....if this gets added I'm raiding Isle headquarters

[frail bobcat]

What do you mean with larger dinos and smaller apexes?

[golden coral]

Yes. I wish it was "locational" based. Think that if you hit the other omni from behind, it goes flat on stoamch, and you can kill it rather easily. If you hit it from the side, it lays on the side, it can fight back somewhat, but you'll still get the kill and survive. If you hit it from the front, it falls on its back, and can now fight back fully, so while you will get the kill, you'll also die in return or something like that. So if you see an omni as another one, you would aim to keep your face to it, to discourage it from trying to pin you.

[frail bobcat]

Imma join you then

[obtuse ocean]

: P

[golden coral]

Okay fair. Poor para then, it runs from allos xD

[frail bobcat]

Gosh I despise this concept art. It only shows fighting

[golden coral]

Honestly, I agree. I get what they're going for, it's JP spino after all, but it would be nice with something else.

[obtuse ocean]

And i dont wane to be grappled from the front and then the spino telepots to the side and throw me over lol

[frail bobcat]

That would make pin a nice ambush tool, I want it suggested in #general-feedback now

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but what happends on the top right picture ? I cant tell

[thin mantle]

Well I think tiers are bs...but I understand they're common vernacular in the discord so I use the terms...but I don't think omni's prey range above it's own weight should be that large....a select few apexes should even be vulnerable to omni packs with most just being downright unbothered by them....which is fine...mechanically speaking most apexes can't deal with omni...trike being a good example...it would get fodderized...so some simply being granted a massive statistical advantage to their damage application method so that they can even survive two of the buggers

[golden coral]

I just want more interactions with mechanics, pin/pounce, buck, lunge and so on. Quick step to juke a lunge, pounce/buck brace and attack mechanic.

[thin mantle]

Yeah I just don't trust the artwork whatsoever...it's such a colossally awful idea gameplay wise that I can't imagine it'll ever exist

[slim dragon]

Maybe spino can do that only if anky is out of stam

[golden coral]

Feel free if you think it'd work out and you like it. But do spend some time to think about it yourself as well, just to make sure it's not just something that sounds good but would be terrible in the game or something.

[frail bobcat]

Omni gonna be a bane to bigger ceratopsians

[frail bobcat]

Could have its issues with ping

[obtuse ocean]

lol yea, but tho be honest whats out as for now. Actually reflects the concept. So we need to deal with it : P

[thin mantle]

I don't think I can make any positive or negative claims on whether that would work since I don't know anything about it's combat...that could work or it could not work...but I'd have no idea

[golden coral]

Fair, though I was thinking mostly ingame otherwise, not performance (since thats an issue for most things and a different kind of issue to fix at that).

[thin mantle]

Well not really...that's why it's concept art...it's designed to vet ideas

[golden coral]

I keep thinking of the edit with "But can it kill the allosaurus" :p

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but so far most is accurate. Not 100% tho but we get a good picture of whats gonna be

[golden coral]

What a fine mess that was :D

[slim dragon]

Fair point
I just hope all pins/instant death attacks are locked behind a specific condition in the future

[thin mantle]

No I know...but that's mostly because we haven't had any animals implemented with concept artwork that shows them doing something insane balance wise...this in comparison to the implemented creatures would be a unique case

[thin mantle]

They should/have to be, that's for sure

[frail bobcat]

Deino mains on their way to disagree

[obtuse ocean]

if im rex and i cant one shot a omni unless a specific conditions, somethings off : P

[thin mantle]

The specific condition being that rex is statistically hard countered by omni and is easily able to avoid it by seeing it coming, that's a special case

Same with stego's tailswing

Getting hit by that attack is entirely the fault of the target because of how blatantly easy it is to avoid

[obtuse ocean]

lol yes then we agree

[frail bobcat]

Basically everything that focuses on face defence is statistically hardcountered by omni

[thin mantle]

Flank defense...but yes

Tho not really rn since you can land a pounce on the targets face

Which is bs but who needs engaging combat when we have raptor oc :D

[frail bobcat]

😦

[thin mantle]

Actually...OC is giving it too much credit...Unoriginal Character is better.....UC

[frail bobcat]

But I still like the fact that we can play the JP raptors.

Which Jurassic Fan would not want to do that?

[thin mantle]

I'm indifferent to it...but it does make me sad as someone who designs characters regularly...it's just creatively barren

[frail bobcat]

Yes, but its something we can look over considering the other cool design

[thin mantle]

I don't know why we'd look over the nugget of crap in the mountain of gold but alright

Just makes it smell bad

[frail bobcat]

And atleast we have a cool looking Pachy, unlike a certain other game

[thin mantle]

That's true

Pachy is glorious

[obtuse ocean]

By the way, how big do i need to be to not getting grabbed by deino as stego ? : P

[frail bobcat]

67 percent I heard

[obtuse ocean]

oww, good

[thin mantle]

mhm, it's down from 75-80....thankfully

[obtuse ocean]

Just released that deino might have a good amount of dinos on its grab menu

in the future

[dusky surge]

you could remove staggers on pachy hitting animals greater than 2x its weight, i doubt it would do much harm, since the fractures are easily decent enough to compensate

[keen plover]

Hmmm. Would this mean a pachy would always at minimum take a hit? I guess with the current map, that would be an issue. I'd love to see Pachy on Gateway

[mellow zenith]

Currently, a pachy hitting a charging carno can have free hit, thats so dumb lmao

[dusky surge]

?

[mellow zenith]

Like the headbutt will stun the carno, and by the time the carno get out of the stun, the pachy can hit the carno again for free. (Sometime even stun it again, preventing the carno from bitting)

I saw a video of ScopeOG testing carno charge against pachy headbutt

[twilit juniper]

That’s true ^, seemed pretty busted to me too..

[willow cliff]

Yeah but I mean carno can also dispatch a pachy in less than a second if it plays correctly so…

[hasty coyote]

I’m pretty sure it’s a bug since it isn’t in the patch notes, likely caused by then fixing the pachy “joust” or “clash” mechanic.

[small sphinx]

Has to be a bug because the pachy gets a 1 sec cooldown from all movement after the charge (its the animation finishing). In short I've charged carnos, get the stagger but then I too am locked in place. Generally turns into a 50/50 chance of either being bitten by the carno or getting out of the way just in time. Pachy needs another 16+ head butts to kill the adult carno after stagger. If the carno cant manage to get 2 more left click bites over the course of another 16 headbutts that carno deserves to die. The only dino that needs stagger love is the teno since its stuck with only a 34dmg bite...

[golden coral]

You are aware that the pachy staggers every time it hits, aside from cooldown time, right? You can "stunlock" carno and kill it pretty easily, do the same to a teno even easier.

[small sphinx]

Do you video proof of stunlocking a carno to death...would love to see it along with the rest of the community...As pachy player i've never stunned someone to death..as a teno I've never been stunlocked to death either...

[willow cliff]

No, you can’t “stucklock” a carno to death but the advantage definitely goes to pachy if it gets a solid legbreak, that’s if there isn’t another 24 carnos behind the other one

[small sphinx]

^ I'd say a fair trade considering the pachys dies in one left click bite and a single charge...

[willow cliff]

I like how people wanted pachy to be strong again, they buff the animal now people want to complain

you can…what..kill a pachy in less than a second as a full adult carno by clicking right mouse button? I think it’s fair

you can also bait a pachy quite easily and go in for a bite, since it’s essentially a glass cannon

[golden coral]

Do I need a video when it's quite well known? Are you not aware of how the stagger/stun works?

[small sphinx]

yes...burden is on you for saying it..

We'd all love to see it

[golden coral]

You can. Every time you land the ram, the carno gets staggered and can't do much. You just have to wait out the cooldown and you're good. If you've gotten the legbreak, then the carno can't really get away, so now you can slowly kill it.

[golden coral]

Alright, I'll see if I can get some friends to show it when they test things out next time.

[small sphinx]

Cheers, would help the devs too

[golden coral]

I'm pretty sure they are aware, or at least QA is.

[hollow canyon]

it's not a 50/50 a Pachy that doesn't get out in time is doing something wrong

[golden coral]

The issue is pachy CC, not the damage (or at least the main issue is the CC it does, no idea if it does too little or too much damage right now).

[hollow canyon]

if you do that - that means the Pachy missplayed - it can counter Carno's charge with the ram

[willow cliff]

I just only find an issue with pachy in groups which is oddly rare to find considering how well it can deal with animals similar to its size (demolishes omni) but then again not many people play omni now due to the initial nerfs

[hollow canyon]

I see a lot of Omnis

ran into a pack of half a dozen today as Deino

killed one and took the young Carno they'd killed

[willow cliff]

I’ve seen only a handful at northwest, don’t really see them anywhere else due to the plains being a death sentence for them which makes sense I suppose

[hollow canyon]

yesterday I've seen them quite often too

I see them in the center

[willow cliff]

might be the server, not sure

[hollow canyon]

and south

and north west, they are not the plague they were back in U5

but they're still very common in my experience

[golden coral]

How did the teno matchup go btw, did you survive?

[hollow canyon]

they are maybe slightly less popular than Carno and definitely less popular than Deino

which is now a complete plague

on any server I have played on so far

[willow cliff]

Deino will always be played, until rex or another X large carnivore gets released

although I’m not sure how they do it. Deino gameplay is an absolute snooze fest

[fresh laurel]

Big chompa

[fallow breach]

I dont think Magy is 100% useless and can be more than a free meal but m a n

[somber sphinx]

Tbh I see it would have a fair chance against stuff like cera and carno but anything bigger would obviously kill it

Like allo and Alberto for example

[fallow breach]

Heres my idea for Magy:
It is a meal on wheels but the wheels are spiked monster truck wheels.
It can't run fast nor is it the most agile but by swinging the neck mid-run or tail it can knock away foes and maybe even knock them over to put more distance between the two. It won't have much in terms of raw damage but it shines in incapacitating foes and winning battles of attrition with a big (for its tier) healthbar.

[somber sphinx]

Yeah magy I see would mostly rely on stuns and knock downs like a wrestler and have a lot of stam to outstam those it can’t outspeed like allo

But I also have ideas about it’s combat capabilities

Lmb: should be a click and hold option so if you click lmb you bite that would deal not much dmg but some but if you hold you would be able to throw animals 1/4 of magys weight like Herrera, troodon and sub Omni

Rmb: a tail attack that would act as a bat, it’s tail is too short and to stiff by the looks of it to be a wip but perfect to act like a bat

Alt lmb: a pivotal stomp that would also have a click and hold option. Click: the stomp would be fast, do little dmg, drain not so much stam and deal no fracture. Hold: woukd have a long wind up, cost more stam, do lots of dmg and fracture to animals up to carnos weight

Alt rmb: a knock down ability that could knock down things that are carno sized and would also have a wind up and if you do knock down a cera or carno then you would be able to do a full stomp (hold alt lmb stomp) that’s my idea on its attacks

[fallow breach]

Basically a Strong Man vs those muscular dudes

[somber sphinx]

Indeed

[fallow breach]

I disagree with this. I don't think Magy's neck would be able to support this very well, not to mention the potential issues with ragdolls and stuff...
Y e sssssss. Most sauropods might have a "whip" tail but Magy would just go "BATTER BATTER----- BATTER UUUUP!" More damage the closer to the base it is.
Yes and no. I think it should be able to stand on its hind for a few seconds like the pachy before slamming down and instead have a tap be just it kicking forward a bit.
Fitting and is essentially a combo finisher

Heres my idea for a moveset however:

[somber sphinx]

The reason I chose the throw ability was also because it was shown in its concept and would be a basic attack for smaller stuff like troo

And the stomp should only be for a few seconds yeah but also why chose a tap hold option was cause the tap one would be to catch smaller stuff like troodon or Herrera and would kinda be like tenos alt attack and the big stomp would be for bigger boys like cera and carno

Also damn I wish his legs were thicker

[fallow breach]

LMB: Magy swings its head slightly to the sides. Not much damage, decent knockback and is more like a stego biting.
RMB: Kick both front legs forward or both back legs depending on where you are viewing.
A-LMB: Charge up the head swing. There is a delay between release and the swing (start-lag) but you would swing to the side you are facing and deal great knockback and damage. Small foes will be knocked quite a bit away with a huge amount of damage, medium would be knocked over and large would be stunned.
A-RMB: Only usable while facing forward. Magy stands on its hindlegs temporarily (2-3 seconds?) before slamming down. This has a three damage zones. Furthest to closest: 1: A forced stagger. You get slightly blown away and falter, making your dino step away. 2: Your dino takes some minor damage and gets knocked over. 3: Really [redacted] close up you straight up take massive damage- and i mean huge. Leg and body fracture is guaranteed and a big chunk of your hp is taken off, this forces anyone unfortunate enough to be hit to be taken out of the fight

[somber sphinx]

I like it tho idk if magys neck is thick enough to do that and I’d replace its leg kick with the tail bat thing I said before

But I do like a magy swinging it’s head slightly to knock down smaller things

[eager ledge]

I down voted because you said pachy was over powered it was very wimpy before it needed the buffs I agree with everything else with exception to the pachy@muted citrus

[somber sphinx]

I mean…pachy Is pretty overpowered this update, sure it needed a buff but not to this extent

[eager ledge]

It’s still 3-4 shot if just bites to a carno but with ram it’s another story that doesn’t end well for pachy so I don’t know what you are talking about It’s not like it’s unkillable it is still very killable unless you have a skill issue

[somber sphinx]

Yeah you can still kill a pachy bit pachy can just dominate against a Omni especially with the buck nerf and bloodpool “buff” and pachy can just solo a carno cause it stunlocks it

[eager ledge]

Ya that is agsactly why I agreed with guy say omi was to wimpy currently but that other thing you just mentioned is hole other rabbit hole

[eager ledge]

That is why you need to do hit and run combat as carno then you can avoid getting stund

[stark spear]

patch is needed for carnos running over tiny ass hills and absolutely yeeting themselves and breaking a leg. bit of a joke. Its a 2 ton animal. That just doesnt happen

[hollow canyon]

You say that but I have more action on Deino than on any other playable in the game

so far on 2 Deinos that I've grown I'd killed half a dozen to over a dozen of people during growth itself

that's something that doesn't happen on any other animal in my experience

[dusky surge]

LMB is always a bite attack, always. Make LMB a basic bite, make Alt+LMB the headswing, since you've already done that

[muted citrus]

I guess you have not seen a carno getting bonked from 1 stun into another all 3 seconds while being tripple fractured and that is what a single pachy can do - now the most people aren't even playing alone that means 2 3 or 4 pachys.

I am not a carno main and I am barely playing it - I rather play pachy but still it is stupid as hell. I do not disagree pachy could needed a buff to its blood resistance and what else but if you saying me that this is good how it is right now then you are disillusion.

[bright briar]

You can fight 1v3 raptors or even more as pachy now. Just easy right clicks and you have no problems, cause pachies have even better turn radius. If raptors suppose to be the main rivals of pachies, then the current balancing is not correct. As pachy you can even easily 1v1 a teno. Think about it

[fallow breach]

@muted citrus while I agree with a lot of this, the isle devs arent the only ones who are guilty of this but the devs who do such things usually are looked down upon and hated as a result (such as Dead by Daylight devs in the past, but they have made efforts to improve on this and the community has given very positive feedback as a result.)
In general it is a very bad move for devs to make changes without giving reasons or even saying so in patchnotes (or in the case of DBD, outright adding changes that werent in the stress test)

[golden coral]

@lofty talon To be fair, all of those people saying how it would be better this way or that, are rather few in numbers really, and there's most likely just as many being quite happy with the current state of the game. As for some of the changes, I'd say they were less buffs or nerfs outright, though things do need to be fine tuned. But some changes were absolutely needed, such as the bucking now being actually useful, and how carno functions since it now leans into actually chasing things down with the charge and dryos new dodge and so on. Are there issues, sure, carno charge hitbox is terrible, dryo needs some help to make it's dodge worth using, pachy needs its CC severely limited, bucking needs to drain stam continously and not in chunks, and so on, but overall, this is far from the worst or "unplayable" the game has ever been, or most likely will be. On top of that, "listening to the community" is rather questionable at times, since there's far more often very bad ideas and takes than good ones, especially if we're looking at what the devs are, as far as I know, attempting to achieve. A lot of the people that are now "writing essays", had no issues with the game before the patch, despite allthe balance issues that had, so make of that what you will.

[lofty talon]

Fair enough the essays part was an exaggeration btw.

[golden coral]

Hence why I put it in "". :p

But generally, while the current state do need a lot of fine tuning, no doubt about it, people tend to exaggerate how badly something is, especially if their main playable has been impacted. And we know there'll be a balance pass between now and U6.5 as well, so no doubt things will change again.

So there's no real need to act as if this is the be all/end all and everything is ruined, as some feedbacks kind of make it out to be.

[lofty talon]

True

[wispy kite]

Oh boy, people claiming Carno is alright in this state. smh

[golden coral]

@lofty talonI need to go get food, but I'll give you the carno charge turn and the bucking as something I personally think they did right. The charge because I want to see carno as a pursuit predator, that runs you down and uses the charge to keep up with you. As such, it has to be good enough to be used vs the small and often agile game that the carno is meant to hunt. This is also why I don't believe carno should knock down teno. The bucking is because prior, the meta was to find a tree, or better yet, cliff, and just stand there until the omnis either pounced and then died, or gave up, and I do not find that to be engaging or good combat. So I'd much rather have bucking be a proper, useful counter, so I can keep engaging the pack where they find me and actually fight back and forth.

[wispy kite]

The small and agile prey is supposed to have to opportunity to get away. Others are not supposed to be “free” food for your digital dinosaur.

[golden coral]

And they can get away as far as I know. They can also fight back, especially pachy though that is more so because CC is a bit broken. But prior, the charge was useless in actual chases, and only really good in groups, where it kind of was too good at that, especially against things like teno.

[wispy kite]

Charge was never useless. You just had to predict well.

[golden coral]

Mind you, the turn changes, or whatever happened there, since the verdict is still out, is not something I take into account since it apparently was not intended in the first place.

[golden coral]

So almost useless then, because really, if you got hit with the charge and you already knew of the carno, that was entirely on you being bad. Did it work against unaware targets, sure. Did it work against targets that knew how to move aside, not in the slighest.

[wispy kite]

Charge is supposed to miss, just as pounce is supposed to miss if the other one dodges it.

But now nothing can run from carnos endless charge.

[golden coral]

And that is not at all how I see it. Also you can't really dodge pounce anyway, especially not the targets an omni is meant to pounce.

Like I explained earlier, I want charge to be useful in a chase, not some kind of ambush tool because carno should not be an ambusher.

[wispy kite]

I played mostly pachy and Utah before the update. Now I only play Carno. It’s just totally op. The only thing that kills a Carno nowadays is another Carno or a cliff.

[golden coral]

So no, I don't think it's "supposed to miss", at least not in the manner I think you speak of. Miss in the sense of the target juking you properly, sure, miss in the sense of "I take one step to the side and I'm good" not at all.

[wispy kite]

Why should Carno not be an ambusher?

[golden coral]

Before this patch, the only thing killing a dryo was well, boredom or recklessness. Before this patch, the same applied to omni. There are issues with carno, especially the hitbox on charge, but that's not the same as the charge or the idea for it being bad.

[golden coral]

Because A, It makes no sense, you're a plains animal, an open grounds animal, which is not ideal for hiding and waiting for prey to come close enough. B, You have the speed and movement to actually chase and you're meant to hunt small game, that tends to be agile and skittish and C, because I personally think it doesn't make sense so I do not like that design and would much prefer carno working lika cheetah, since that would play out well with how it would chase targets but have a limited time to actually take it out and if the target jukes enough, it gets away due to carno being out of stam.

[wispy kite]

I played omni. I died countless times, whenever I overestimated my skill.
I think the population speaks for itself. Before U6 there was every playable present on the map. Now it’s just carnos and Crocs and very few herbs

[golden coral]

So basically, you were reckless and made bad decisions. Yes, I died as dryo for the same reasons, we both played badly. This happens, but if we had both played well, we would not have died :p

[golden coral]

Honestly I couldn't say much, the new call change kind of makes it seem dead

So I've yet to find many people at all, carnos or anything else really

But it would be interesting if the devs applied a "heatmap" for it

Then we'd actually know

[wispy kite]

Bro, the map is dead. 3 days ago I was nested I to a Carno mega pack of 10 Carnos. One was even a developer with red name. Carnos are ruling the map and there is not much that can stand in its way.
A game is supposed to be balanced and fun. Realism comes second.

Not even the developers are playing anything else but Carno.

[golden coral]

But I have met two tenos, a few omnis, a random dryo (twice), seen a bunch of tiny deinos, met one full stego family (too many stegos in once place), and seen a few tiny pachies, as well as two small families of carnos (one adult in both cases and one sub/large juvie).

[golden coral]

Correct, but what constitutes balance is not always easy to figure out, especially not when we're working with a limited roster and an ecosystem balance. As for that, well, I've yet to see more than those carno families, and this was on EU official, full server, so I don't know. Maybe the servers do vary a lot in what people play, but I've not met any carno hordes despite expecting it.

[bright oasis]

3 days ago my carno pack died to a 7 man teno group with 2 pachys. Theres still people who play not carno. You're just only going to the carno hotspots

[wispy kite]

@golden coral I’ll stop here and let you grab your food. We ain’t going to agree anyway.

[golden coral]

Fair! My food is getting a bit cold, so much appreciated. And I don't think we neccesarily disagree much, just have slightly different approaches to how to do things.

@wispy kiteI will however ask you to put down suggestions for server + area to be in to find people, because it has been rather boring to barely see anyone, and I'm not up to date with the hotspots as it were.

[wispy kite]

Met most people on EU servers. North west (rather close to the Utah/pachy/teno rock) and south east map border are always herbies growing + a lot of Carnos killing them while they are small.

[calm ibex]

Heat map by itself would be pointless, you'd also have to get access to dino pick rates and K/D ratios

[hollow canyon]

Carno's anything but alright but the update was a step in the right direction

now it just needs to have its charge hitbox fixed and the damage + CC lowered(imo)

pretty sure it's broken right now because they simply didn't have the time to fix it before the end of the year

Also - Omni sure as hell needed a nerf on U5 it was completely broken back then

[golden coral]

That'd be part of it, at least the dino picks/rates, the purpose would be to see which critters are the most/least played and all that. Since people claim this or that, or to have seen or not seen something. So it would be nice if we could know what the actual "landscape" looks like.

[calm ibex]

sure would

[drowsy girder]

Am i the only one that feels like none of the feeback stuff is being read? 😞 it feels like we get no acknowledgement from the devs on anything that we put here

[golden coral]

It might feel that way, but from what I know, devs and QA and so on do read feedback. It's probably more so that they can't respond to every single one, or even feedback as a whole in a good manner. On top of the fact that we don't always know what their goals are, so in many cases the feedbacks might not even be all that relevant in the first place.

[somber sphinx]

@hasty coyote yeah pachys dmg is just overturned and I’d wish it was close to u5s dmg but a little better but it’s ram downwards would be its main dmg dealer to things it knocks down this would also help it not soloing carno or teno (also not make it stun lock things 3x the size just stagger them a bit)

[hasty coyote]

Pachy's charged ram damage barely changed, from like 100 to 125 damage, which is not really much. it still takes 15 rams to kill a carno. Tap does 75, i don't remember what its previous value was, but likely hasnt changed much. Alt actually got a nerf to 55. However, pachy's damage is not the issue (as we saw in U4 to U5), its the ability to stun lock. Which I addressed with the scaling stun immunity idea.

[somber sphinx]

Yeah the stun lock and being able to stun things 3x it’s size is absurd

[hasty coyote]

as I said, it still needs to be able to stun carno to get the fractures and run. Or its likely just going to be run down because you get punished for landing your attack: lose 1/3 hp and are now bleeding heavily, so you can't rely on hiding in a bush. However, I agree the stun locking needs to be fixed, just not by removing stuns entirely.

[somber sphinx]

Yeah a bit of a stagger would be better not a full on stun

[round jolt]

im playing pachy with a friend
i have the -15% stamina decay decreased
he has the bleed regen diet
and i felt like he had more stam than me even tho i have the -15% decay
so we did a test both ran same time 100% stam and when i ran out of the stam he still had 8% to 10% left
it worse using the build that is supposed to let you run longer

[hasty coyote]

that sounds like a bug, you should prob try to report it.

[winter iris]

Come on, I’ve played Utah quite a lot and, especially in U5/5.5 there was no way you could miss a pounce whilst a ram (as carno ) was almost always missed when the opponent was aware of you. In this update I played like 3-4 hours max and only as carno as of now, but omni is definitely able to dodge the ram. So ram can still be missed , and pounce seems to still be working quite well but not as an aimbot anymore (which might be good so it requires some skill)
The point on which I agree is that omni cannot juke or bully carnos as it did in U5/5.5 , which I think is a good thing tbh as I lost the count of carnos I bullied and killed as Utah in that update. My view is that in the last 12 months there’s been no playable better/stronger than Omni in U5/5.5 , which I consider even stronger than U4.5 carno especially in light of the very low effort in growing and surviving that omni required compared to carno.
Additionally, some people apparently tested that there has not been any turn radius nerf on Omni, but I’m not sure about that because I still didn’t play it unfortunately and did not read all the feedbacks accurately. But if Utah/omni has mainly become a playable that actually requires some skill and attention while playing (unlike U5 in which you could do many mistakes without being punished), I’d be happy at least with the direction taken. Then I’m sure carno will be adjusted in the next patch and I’m also pretty sure that the balance changes introduced in this update are also in light of future playables in the roster

[wispy kite]

I believe that the population on the server speaks for itself.

[thin mantle]

That's moreso a product of omni not decimating carno and carno having a useful ability now rather than omni being too weak...charge needs it's stuns borderline completely removed and it's hitbox actually needs to be tight but it's really not that bad

[muted saddle]

@crisp junco About you comment on deinos on land- in real life crocodilians in general though slow at walking, can run quite fast on land. It takes more energy from them, translated into the game through stamina. It’s realistic. It’s fast by takes up lots of Stam. It makes sense to me and is realistic.

[crisp junco]

They are travelling inland mainly because the sub adults can sprint way quicker now, it’s ridiculous to think crocs sprint far inland to kill something

[muted saddle]

True. But it’s realistic to an extent- for a lone animal crocodilians can easily run on land to an unsuspecting individual without a herd or other form of protection and get an easy meal. I think that adding a new dinosaur that can combat a full deino on land would balance that out, be a solution to this.

[crisp junco]

It’s not realistic, they very rarely Venture inland to find a kill, they wait on outer banks and in the rivers and stuff for unsuspecting prey.. I already crap myself enough going for a drink, now I can’t eat a meal 500m inland without getting charged by a deino with no sound. They also shouldn’t be able to outrun sub raptors

[hollow canyon]

what? No?

"Crocodiles" and "running fast on land" don't go together in a sentence

unless it's "if you're being attacked by crocodiles you should be running fast on land" I guess

cause yea that's something they generally cannot do

Having said that - I think it's cool that they do that, there's far more interaction between the crocs and other animals, now I'd just gut the stamina pool of subadults and decrease how fast they dehydrate and stop the rivers being interconnected(already a thing on Gateway afaik) and the game instantly gets better.

[winter iris]

I don’t post in the feedback but here in the discussion coz mine is mainly a question.
Was there really a need to make leg fractures heal only when resting? Whilst it seemed good to me initially, after having thought a bit about it, I know believe that it’s not been a good decision because leg fracture already was almost a death sentence, but now is 100% death with an only one hit. Additionally, I think this makes pachy a very good playable to hunt others down (better than Utah in that basically) which is not the first idea i have about a small/medium herbivore. I’m not too sure about this second point as devs and other players may prefer pachy to actively hunt down other dinos , so it’s just my personal view. But on the first one , it seems that leg fracture is a bit too rewarding for literally one single hit now. At least it’s doing way more than giving pachy the possibility to afeli escape from big predators or to kill small/medium ones (like Utah). My view is that also with leg fracture healing while walking (although not realistic) already gave the possibility to pachy to safely escape and/or inflict a lot of damage and potentially kill big predators (carno is the only one at the moment), so was there really the need to decide that one single hit needed to be more powerful?
I thought that maybe, if leg fracture can heal only when resting, then it should probably need more than 1 hit on the leg location to cause a fracture depending on the size of the opponent.
Am I completely wrong and/or missing something?

[muted saddle]

@crisp junco @hollow canyon what I mean is that realistically crocodilians can preform short bursts of speed on land.

[hollow canyon]

emphasis on "short"

they traverse roughly their own body length or half of it

at a very high speed

but that's it

they don't run fast

[small herald]

My teno had to waste half a stamina bar while I got chased by a sub adult croc. It was just as fast as me and I went way inland before it stopped

[muted saddle]

That’s where stamina drain comes in.

[small herald]

@muted saddle

[hollow canyon]

a Saltwater crocodile can move for a split second at a speed of 40km/h+

but it can't run like that

the fastest extant croc is the Cuban crocodile - some 18km/h

[small herald]

Yeah but they have these guys running 500+ meters at that speed. It’s completely broken

[obtuse ocean]

Devs have said deino will be 100% water, ofcourse land if your very close to water. Its gonna be a death sentence when bigger dinos comes if your on land

[crisp junco]

Crocs don’t chase things for ages, but because they upped the speed they all come inland and that’s the issue, idk if they changed stamina that was a guess

[crisp junco]

Atm it ain’t that tho which is the issue haha

[small herald]

Sub adult still has really good stamina pool

So they can realistically be like 3 tons + and chase down prey on land

[crisp junco]

The amount of times I’ve been so far inland and sub adults have bolted at me and 1 tapped me, I’ve lost count

Aka not realistic

[small herald]

I’ve seen dienos hiding in bushes more than in water.

[crisp junco]

They should be sticking to water and outer banks

[muted saddle]

The subs I think should have a larger stam drain on land, like the adults

[small herald]

To bad it’s going to be like 6 months before it gets fixed

[muted saddle]

Everyone is just hounding on me at this point

[small herald]

Same with the broken carno charge

[crisp junco]

And be slower so they know to not come so far inland for a kill, they’re already broken because if you fight them, they’re so tough and will run back to water safety if hurt

[crisp junco]

I mean you @ me about it lel

[muted saddle]

Respecting others opinions

That’s what I mean

Aken was being rude about it, you were okay

It got heated fast

Felt hounded on

[hollow canyon]

There's no "heated" I denied a completely wrong statement which was just pure misinformation - crocodiles do not "run" fast

There's nothing realistic about what deinos do in the game

And it's not that I even disagree with them being able do it in the game, I think it's cool and makes them more interesting, I vehemently disagree with your argument for it though because what you said is simply completely untrue and wrong

[muted saddle]

You’re being very rude about this.

[hollow canyon]

I'm being direct about it, it's just not true and it's simple misinformation just like what was written in the #balance-feedback now

if you write something that's wrong in a large forum you will have people correcting you

@glass gate
A/ Stegos don't kill Deinos in 3-4 hits
B/ No, Deino didn't have a higher biteforce than a T.rex
C/ Deino doesn't need a buff, it's already good enough as it is if not outright too good.

[muted saddle]

You can say “I don’t agree with your proposal, and here’s why” instead of “NO! NONE OF IT IS REALISTIC BLAH BLAH BLAH”

[hollow canyon]

No, you said that it is realistic and

[muted saddle]

Yeah. But it’s the way you went about it

[hollow canyon]

"it’s realistic to an extent- for a lone animal crocodilians can easily run on land to an unsuspecting individual without a herd or other form of protection and get an easy meal"

It's not true, it's not realistic

[muted saddle]

Yeah???

[thin mantle]

Proclaiming that a fact is indeed a fact is rude?

[muted saddle]

Dude

[hollow canyon]

this isn't my opinion, it's just factually wrong

[muted saddle]

Your missing my point

[hollow canyon]

I don't even disagree with your proposal

[muted saddle]

I’m trying to tell you the way you’re going about this so rude, that’s my problem

[hollow canyon]

I already said that

I disagree with your line of argument for it because it's nonsense

[muted saddle]

But you do? You inferred it

[thin mantle]

The rudeness is honestly lost on me if it exists at all….

[hollow canyon]

No? I think Deino being able to run like that is good for gameplay

I object to it being realistic

because it ISN'T

[muted saddle]

From my point of view you were saying that is isn’t realistic AND shouldn’t be in the game

[thin mantle]

It DOES bug me how fast deino subs can peak at in relation to how much stam they have but I like that they aren’t useless on land past 50%

Just isn’t counterbalanced properly

[hollow canyon]

you didn't read what I said then - in my first message:

"Having said that - I think it's cool that they do that"

It's good for gameplay, it's absolutely not realistic at all

it also needs to have a lower stamina pool as a subadult

it can run for too long atm

[thin mantle]

Mhm….what does sub deino peak at I can’t remember?

[hollow canyon]

its stamina pool needs to taper off faster during its growth

[hollow canyon]

over 35km/h

I didn't pay attention to the exact number

[thin mantle]

Like I’ve seen duos of sub deinos chasing tenos and biting them to death with…essentially no possible resistance…which is absurd to me

[hollow canyon]

I think Deino should be faster - the adult one, the subadult should have a lower stamina and should keep its speed(maybe tone it down a bit) decrease their dehydration rate

and force them to go on land

water shouldn't be interconnected

matter of fact - it ISN'T on Gateway so it will need to go on land anways

and rightly so, Deinos should be vulnerable at some points during their lives

it being fast and better on land is better for gameplay but it should be allowed to be on land and it should be forced to take that risk

good gameplay but NOT realistic

[thin mantle]

Yeah the inter connectivity of spiros river systems makes deino gameplay…well…the risks are very opt in comparatively…

[muted saddle]

Alright you win, good point

[hollow canyon]

Yea I didn't meant to be rude about it, sorry if you felt that way

I am very direct in my criticisms

and I don't disagree with your point

just your argument for it

[obtuse ocean]

Yea would be good balance now, but later on its gonna be a death sentence when bigger stuff gets added.

[thin mantle]

If larger things being added is what changes the viability of that gameplay then we’d already experience that with stego in the game

[hollow canyon]

well you've gotta be sneaky about it

atm Stego will kill most Deinos on land

[thin mantle]

Yeah I’d imagine the idea wouldn’t be to fight everything you come across…or come across anything really

[hollow canyon]

I think that Deino should get a slight speed buff tbh

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but running around chasing/hunting etc gonna be though : P

[hollow canyon]

and Stego maybe a slight speed nerf

[thin mantle]

Nonono it’s only for travel

[obtuse ocean]

Ohh! yes ofcourse, i totally agree on that

[hollow canyon]

oh I don't think that Deino should necessarily hunt on land I mean sure it can do that if it can pull it off but

[thin mantle]

What would that be servicing? Are we intending for deino to out speed stego on land?

[hollow canyon]

my sanity which breaks a little bit every time I see the galloping stego

[hasty coyote]

I think most the juvies need a slight speed nerf, I like the idea they are going for, its just a bit overtuned when a 4 ton stego can still run at about 32 kph

[hollow canyon]

yea the subadults are a bit fast

nerf that, increase the stam pool of adults

and tune down the stam pools of juvies a little bit

not to where they are close to adults

[obtuse ocean]

I doubt rex gonna be catching stegos, cus that gonna look dumb then lol

[hollow canyon]

but goddamn it atm the difference is too big

[thin mantle]

Oh I hate it too but for balancing purposes I don’t like an animal that will literally always have the ambush engagement advantage with nebulous numbers being faster on land…

[hollow canyon]

oh no, I don't want it to be faster, I want them to be closer in speed with Deino being slightly slower

[thin mantle]

Sub carnos running at 64 kmh is comical

[hasty coyote]

lmao

[hollow canyon]

thinking of something like 20km/h-22km/h

so a 2km/h difference

that's -4km/h on Stego and +2 on Deino

[thin mantle]

Ok that’s fine…it’s a slippery slope I’d hope not to go down…so thankfully that isn’t the proposal

[hollow canyon]

that's what the speed difference used to be

back in the day before Deino's speed nerf

I also think Stego should have a compensatory buff to its runtime

[thin mantle]

Back before hitbox collision existed for it too

[hollow canyon]

in exchange

I will be honest I really like how Watt's done it on his PoT server with how Stego works

[thin mantle]

Yeah that’d be good…it’ll probably end up needing that in the future as well…unless they just balance stego with the larger apexes in mind

[hollow canyon]

it just survives apexes but it doesn't do well if it attacks them at all

[thin mantle]

I still need to test it

[hollow canyon]

just good agility, good damage but it doesn't run at all fast

and as long as it keeps its head away

it just whacks away at a Rex and Rex dies if it keeps going after it

[obtuse ocean]

Thats cus its useless balance in that game, christ. Im still dizzy after 1 fight in that game, needing to hit something 20+ times

[thin mantle]

Just enough to maintain viability against them and still strong enough to decimate smaller animals I’d imagine

[hollow canyon]

nah, in base game T.rex devours a Stego

[thin mantle]

One of the reasons I really want a running “waggle” for lack of better terms

[hollow canyon]

I'm talking about a sever with modified stats

[thin mantle]

For our stego

[hollow canyon]

oh yea

[obtuse ocean]

Oww, never played on that. You can actually kill something then faster ?

[hollow canyon]

so it depends on somethings do indeed get oneshot there others not so much(e.g. Alioramus) but their hp regen is slow enough to where they can't just besiege you and slowly wear you down if you're an apex and they're Alios

[obtuse ocean]

But i do think stego gonna easy avoid a rex here, while just making sure its behind the tale.

[hollow canyon]

the server isn't open to public per se yet, he's still figuring out the balancing

[obtuse ocean]

But no way a stego gonna kill a rex attacking it either

[hollow canyon]

also - really offtopic

we should get back to TI but yea that's how I think Stego should work vs apexes

absolutely atrocious offensive capabilities

extremely good on the defensive

[obtuse ocean]

The devs have said stego nor deino is an apex multiple times, so they prob gonna be running

[hollow canyon]

the issue is that with that setup Stego doesn't really run and without autowalk it would be excruciating to play

then again I'm a person who grew a double defense spinosaurus aka the biggest slowpoke in the game before discovering that autowalk existed

I still think autowalk should be in TI

there's 0 reason not to have it