balance-feedback-discussion

[keen plover]

Already doesn't do damage to carnos (barely any if so) and it also stuns the pachy

[spring dagger]

As it should

It shouldn't even do damage to utah

But if this is the case then the damage should be increased by alot

[golden coral]

@fleet torrent I don't think there's anything in the game right now bar another stego that's supposed to 1v1 it.

[fleet torrent]

I dont understand what you mean could you explain me?

[golden coral]

Well, your post is mentioning 1v1s, I'm just saying I don't think there's anything in the game that's supposed to win a 1v1 with a stego unless it's another stego. Not sure how to clarify, aside from that. You mention changing the attack speeds (not that they're that fast in the first place, except maybe the specific side jab), but if your reasoning is to make 1v1s more fair, I'm just saying there's nothing that should go up 1v1 vs a stego (aside from another stego) and have much of a chance, or a chance at all.

[fleet torrent]

I'm talking in general, I'm talking about combat with a stego. And for the 1v1s it only goes for the "unnofficial" servers that are dedicated to growing for example, but I'm talking about combat with a stego in general. And if you take into account the points that I mentioned honestly if he attacks fast, how could you adjust it to make it more acceptable to play against this dinosaur?

[neon willow]

I think Erik is saying stego is an apex animal, which means theoretically the only thing that should 1v1 it and have a decent chance of winning is another apex... Which basically limits it to deino. But deino really isn't designed to fight other apexes.

Other dinos can fight and win against apexes, but they have to group up. Eg a pack of Utah can wear a stego down

Slowing down stegos attacks so eg a solo Utah can kill it would be horrible for balance

[golden coral]

Considering utahs can take down stegos decently, and deinos can as well, even on land if they have a group and know what they're doing, I don't really see an issue as it stands, especially not since most of the roster isn't meant to fight stego at all really, much less reliably win. On top of that, it's only really the side jab that's fast, the rest of the jab angles are pretty slow. You'd have to give more specific matchups if you want my opinion on if said matchup is supposed to be winnable or not and so on.

[fleet torrent]

Not so much, stego may just wait for it to pounce and when it lands just attack

[fleet torrent]

Well for me it's pretty fast every m2 that it gives, plus with ping delay that both players have it basically has no cd. When you see the stego attacking in their screen they maybe available for another attack, the things are really delayed because of those points i mentioned in feeback

[golden coral]

Well, ping and other such issues isn't really something you can base balance on, I don't think. You could make that argument for any playable and any attack, no? I've gotten hit by carno charges as dryo because my fps or ping was too off so they hit me while it still looked like I had time to dodge. So I'm not sure that's a way to balance stuff, because you can't really "fix" it like that.

[fleet torrent]

You can do things for the perfomance go better also you can change things to try to match with those issues and "fix" a bit it

[golden coral]

Well yes, I have no doubt that we'll get better performance at some point. It's more so that if you adjust for that, how do you then adjust for a matchup where there's no such ping issues? Wouldn't that in turn make that matchup be off?

[fleet torrent]

Look honestly in most cases there are ping issues, I doubt you are constantly finding local people to play against. In the hypothetical case that happens, I don't think I would cancel it because taking my proposal to make the M2 of stego slower as an example, it's getting used to a change and that's it. We all get used to changes of the updates, whatever they are, and continue to play the game. So I don't think it cancels people's gameplay

[golden coral]

That's.. not quite what I meant though. Yes, there are ping issues, that goes for every playable and all that, so I don't see why we should change one playable for that then. And there's no need to change this, the attacks are hardly too fast, I'm pretty sure most attacks are faster than the slower stego jabs, or at the very least not slower, so it's fine.

[fleet torrent]

We keep at the same points, its a loop, for me isn't that "slower" at what i've been playing stego and playing against stego this time..

[winter iris]

@analog mirage , I think the last thing teno needs is other buffs to it’s attacks. It is already the strongest land playable (apart from stego of course), despite not being the biggest (again apart from stego). The damage it deals is already more than enough and it has got plenty of attacks to use and already causes decent bleed with kick and claw attack.

[analog mirage]

Tbf, when we have scaled fractures they will be going to lots of things across the board. For example Para and shant would use them, Rex and possibly deino, Carno charge, so giving it to Teno kick isn’t out of the question

Scaled fractures doesn’t mean pachy levels, they are less severe but obviously can be ramped up the more applied

[winter iris]

Sorry maybe I did explain myself in an unclear way. I just meant that as of now, regarding base damage, teno is more than ok. Later with a bigger roster things will probably change yes

[analog mirage]

Fair enough

[neon willow]

@versed rune Teno claw attack is the little brother of the kick attack. What I mean is:

The kick attack can only really be used defensively. You can swivel and deal a TON of damage, bleed, and a small stun to an attacker (or a chaser) with it, but because the hitbox is behind it can't be used offensively.

Teno claw attack is imo primarily offensive. You shouldn't use it if something is attacking you, but rather to keep bleed on something as it tries to run away. So it has lower damage, but it allows tenos to bring the fight to a fleeing carnivore, rather than how stego kinda just has to hope they come back because stego can't chase long and has no high damage attacks at it's front

The tail slam's utility on the other hand, is not it's damage, but the stun. It has a much longer range and can be aimed, so the goal is to stun with tail slam so that you or a herd mate has time to use other attacks to take the threat out

Kind of a similar reason for using a pachy charged ram, or carno charge. The stun allows the ability to combo with several higher damage follow up attacks

[unborn iris]

If you're not using claw on teno you're not using teno to it's full potential. And I would bet you're struggling against utahs.

[neon willow]

^ claw is great against agile opponents like Utah's that run in and then run out.

[azure crescent]

I use the claw attack and i still feel that it is not deterrent enough for anything bigger than a pachy, even though carno's concept shows teno using it's claw attack to defend itself

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/778350260027129865/1031296010384855114

Thoughts on this are appreciated

basically my "solution"

[unborn iris]

It's all situational. Like everything about teno. If you have time to turn and kick, obviously you would do that. If you don't, then you claw because it's much faster and easier to hit.

I really like how teno is right now. So I guess I disagree, not that it's a horrible idea, overall.

[azure crescent]

I like it too, i just feel that it's kit could be more versatile

Hence why i made kick do less stun but more knockback, but tailslam do longer stuns with longer range, in turn for having lower damage

[unborn iris]

I really feel like that just makes teno stronger.

[azure crescent]

Elaborate please

[unborn iris]

You really don't change the same strategy of tail slam to stun then follow up kicks. Except now your tail slam stuns longer and further.

Then you add even more utility vs Utah.

I don't see any downside to the suggestion really. It just makes teno stronger. Where it's pretty strong in the right handss already.

[azure crescent]

the range won't change lmao

i mean longer as in, longer than the other attacks

[unborn iris]

Yeah, I guess I misread that part.

Either way. There's no real downgrade for the upgrades. As you said the combo is tail slam into kicks. You would be able to land another kick again presumably. And then you're making claw stronger.
As it stands right now I would say kick doesn't even need it's stun and teno would still be good.

Honestly though, I don't think it would be a bad change.

[neon willow]

@vestal sky Utah pack size is 8. They get more per group than carno (3 carnos in pack) because they're a lot lower health. If you ran into a group of 20 they were over packing, which theoretically carnos can do too if you want

And bleed is worsened by low stamina and running, so you ideally want to limit both to effectively fight utah

[fleet torrent]

@vestal sky i think utah bleed is good, also if you are a solo or a small group of carnos you are not supposed to rush so much utahs 20, you talked about.. I mean knowing the risk that now the utah is a really scary dino that deals a good bleeding.. For me the bleed they do its good, im not a utah fan or main, i play everything and when i had my fights with them i felt them balanced

[dusky surge]

@primal heart they never nerfed carno's blood pool, it's still higher than teno's

[flat thicket]

carnos also like 2-3 times the size of a teno

[dusky surge]

no they ain't wtf

they're like 200kg more

[flat thicket]

they're def a lot bigger

they're like 1200kg less than a carno

[dusky surge]

no they aren't

carno is 1800kg, teno is 1600kg

[flat thicket]

Teno is not 1600kg not IRL anyways

they're like 1000-1200 max

[dusky surge]

okay cool but this is the isle

[flat thicket]

600-1000kg

[dusky surge]

and in the isle teno weighs 1600kg

[flat thicket]

then the isle has it wrong

and the carno is suppose to weigh anywhere from 1.8-2.1 metric tons

[dusky surge]

isle has lots of things wrong but it does what it does for game balance

[flat thicket]

that doesnt make any sense for balance

[dusky surge]

i'm talking about game balance, i do not care about how much they weigh irl because that's an entirely different story

[flat thicket]

either way the carno is supposed to be quite a bit bigger theres no reason for them to be similar health

thats total bs

[dusky surge]

they have similar health and blood pool because they are similar weight

[flat thicket]

they arent supposed to be similar weight

[dusky surge]

it does not matter how heavy teno is irl because that's a meaningless argument in the context of the isle

[flat thicket]

the teno is a fair amount smaller than a carno

[dusky surge]

not in the isle

[flat thicket]

why do they have similar health?

[dusky surge]

because health = weight

[flat thicket]

yeah but why are they like that in the isle

yeah so why do they weigh similarly

[stark knoll]

Because the devs want it to be

[dusky surge]

because if teno was realistic, it'd be a garbage playable

[flat thicket]

thats dumb

then why'd they add it

[dusky surge]

because they wanted to

[flat thicket]

that just makes the carno not fun to play

[dusky surge]

they gave carno a charge (which isn't realistic), pachy a ram (which isn't realistic), utah a pounce (which isn't realistic), hypsi a spit (which isn't realistic), ptera a running takeoff (which isn't realistic), teno a tail slam (which isn't realistic)

i think it's fair to suspend some level of disbelief when it comes to The Isle

[flat thicket]

the carno charge pacy ram utah pounce how are they not realisitc?

[dusky surge]

it would literally break the neck of the animal

carno and pachy would break their own necks trying to do those attacks

[flat thicket]

thats bs they're literally designed to

[dusky surge]

no they aren't

[primal heart]

Same,they accelerates the bleeding rate, no difference in performance

[dusky surge]

pachy's head was used for swings, not for rams, its neck literally could not support a ram

carno's neck was built for swinging and biting, not for using its head as a battering ram

these methods of combat would kill the animal

[flat thicket]

its definitely strong enough to take it but the carno usually used it top jaw and slammed it down but still them having the same or similar health makes no sense

[dusky surge]

or severely injure it

just accept the fact the Isle deviates from realism to ensure the game is balanced

a realistically weighted tenonto would be doomed within the ecosystem

[flat thicket]

ok but why is the carno underweighted?

[dusky surge]

its too small and weak to fight back against predators like carno, and too slow to escape it

[flat thicket]

by like a lot

[stark knoll]

It isn't

[dusky surge]

carno is fine?? carno weighs around 1.8 tons irl

that's perfectly reasonable

[flat thicket]

it can but thats on the small-medium size

[dusky surge]

so? it's still realistic by all means

[flat thicket]

and yet it doesnt seem to be very useful in the isle

[dusky surge]

it is tho

[flat thicket]

doesnt seem like it they die really easily

[mental roost]

No...that's about average for a Carnotaurus most likely, considering we only have 1 specimen of Carnotaurus so far described.

1.8 tons is just fine where it's at, the elder system will allow Carnotaurus to grow larger than its current size, sameway all the other playables will.

[dusky surge]

it can easily catch up to and dispatch small prey in a chase due to its speed, and knock them down with their (unrealistic) ram attack

[flat thicket]

but currently the only "smaller" prey are utahs which usually have a huge pack and can out maneuver the carno and bleed it

also why couldnt a utah pounce?

[stark knoll]

It was far too robust

IRL utahs were the largest dromaeosaur

[flat thicket]

ah

[stark knoll]

And it's thought that all raptors engaged in raptor prey restraint, which is more of a pin

Even then, they didn't slash with their toe claws

They pierced and grabbed

[flat thicket]

i'd imagine the claw was more for grip

[stark knoll]

Our utah is so unrealistic that it's getting renamed, for context

[flat thicket]

like cheetah claws

[stark knoll]

At the end of the day, balance and engaging gameplay and mechanics take precedence over everything

The team tries to stick near the dino's real sizes, but both weight and length/height are free to be adjusted to fit the intended idea and character of the animal

IE tenontosaurus

[flat thicket]

i suppose just makes the carno feel less like a large carnivore

i also dont see why if you have to inflate the teno so much why even have it in the first place?

[stark knoll]

The team wanted to have a tenontosaurus. They also wanted a brawling herbivore

Voila, Isle teno was born

[flat thicket]

i suppose but i feel like there could've been something else that fit the role better but it isnt my game

but thats the point of discussion so just saying because they wanted to isnt very helpful to the discussion

[stark knoll]

Relatively speaking, carno is on the small end of our roster

[mental roost]

Interesting gameplay potential and niche if reworked, that sort of thing... Tenoto is just kind of one of those animals that's flexible enough to be reworked and made viable.

Also basically everything Lunary said, as well as Zerg. If things were balanced realistically, as others have said in the past: T.Rex would likely be making most of the medium and other large theropods obsolete.

[stark knoll]

What else is there to say? They wanted tenonto to be like this, so it is

[primal heart]

It's hard to bring animals from different periods together and make them equal. In reality, the Carnosaurus would have killed off Tenontosaurus and Pachycephalus, these herbivores weren't that strong

[flat thicket]

yeah but i want to know the reason behind it not just they wanted to i can gather that much myself

[primal heart]

So in terms of playability, it makes sense that Tenontosaurus is buffed

[flat thicket]

thats why i was in general feedback discussion saying it would be interesting if there were different maps that allowed certain dinos

[stark knoll]

Unofficial servers will be able to choose their own roster(s)

[flat thicket]

or a big map that had different sections or something

ah yeah that makes sense

[stark knoll]

So if a server wanted to have different maps available, they could hand-pick the animals on each map

[flat thicket]

guess its less work for the devs to just do that

but then you run into the issue of people just picking random things and destroying the balance between the dinos

[stark knoll]

That'd be on the server owners to decide on

If they want only dryos and rexes, they can do that

Probably won't get many players, but they can

[flat thicket]

thats what i meant the server owner not picking things based on balance in mind so most dinos are just useless etc

yeah but still i would personally like it if it was based on the geography of whatever map it was on but that would be more work for the devs all in all i love the game and where its headed but that doesnt mean i cant whine about things

and i respect tf outt the devs for doing quality over quantity making everything functional before adding more content (mostly not everything can be dealt with)

[stark knoll]

Yea totally! I'm especially excited to see just how many server options are available

And even if something can't be a server option, you could definitely mod it in

Probably would be able to hand-tailor diets to make dinos stick in/near the biomes you prefer them in too

[flat thicket]

that would be awesome to keep certain things where you want them too

[winter iris]

I’m not sure about this. There are scientific papers that actually state that carno’s neck muscles and skull structure are able to sustain the impact of two adult carnos running into each other at more than 20km/h, and they are supposed to be creatures weighting more than 2 tons. Not sure if this theory has been fully rejected nowadays, but I don’t think so

[winter iris]

Overall I agree, most of things aren’t realistic , including teno jump. But that’s the nice thing of a videogame, make it more fun than real life I suppose hehe

[winter iris]

Of course if you decide to fight 20 utahs you die, and you would have also in U4.5 tbh. But the carno v. Utah fight is currently not balanced at all. I play both Utah and carno, and killing a carno as Utah is incredibly easy, especially comparing their size. A solo Utah can 100% stand a fight with 1 or 2 carnos, and against 1 carno if you land 2 pounces you kill it most of the times (and landing a pounce is the easiest thing in the isle). On the other hand as carno, you’d better avoid utahs at all costs because Utah is Ron the easiest to play and deadliest playable for carnos. The wrong choice that messed up the balance in this fight was, in my opinion, the fact that in an only one go the devs decided to: rework pounce to finally make it work (good) but created a magnet (not very good), heavily nerfed carno blood pool, heavily nerfed carno movements and acceleration (making a manoeuvred fight quite difficult and ram less reliable), decreased carno bite hitbox (which is a good thing, but honestly many other playables currently have exaggerated hit boxes for their attacks including teno tail slam and Utah bite for example - and as a note there’s something wrong with carno bite rn). The combo of these changes made together (so effectively buffed Utah and hugely nerfed carno) made the fight unbalanced in my opinion. I play carno more than utah now, but mainly because Utah is now so easy that sometimes it isn’t even particularly nice to play.
I understand that the goal was to avoid carno over population, but Utah this strong has ruined the balance I think (especially vs carno, but also in general). With the current pounce mechanic, also with the U4.5 stats the utah vs carno would have been more balanced than it is now I think. OFC I’m not saying that carno should have stayed as in U4.5, but you get the point I think.

As of now utah is a playable with pros only and no cons basically: very easy and very fast to grow, extremely deadly to pachy and carno also playing as solo Utah, and deadly to teno when in packs of 2-3
The only con about Utah is that its growth curve making half the growth happen after 97% is non sense

[winter iris]

Lol

[winter iris]

Indeed. And I also assume that stats will evolve together with roster during time to ensure there’ll be balance

[golden coral]

The statement is true, the resistance was changed, not the blood pool itself. Far as I know at least.

[winter iris]

As other people told you, the main reason is the devs choice which is more than enough. They ofc also consider that the player base of the isle also want the game to be somewhat realistic so having a small Dino able to kill everything would just make people leave the game.
Another reason for which the game cannot completely stick to reality is that irl animals have different behaviours than those of humans controlling them in a game. For example even if you were the apex predator irl, you wouldn’t have killed all the preys at once just to have fun, but this is exactly what we do when we play the game basically. So ofc some balancing interventions are needed from the devs

[winter iris]

It would be a bit like saying “there’s 1000% inflation but my salary is still the same” knowing that your salary was 100 before and after inflation. Is a true statement if you ignore real consequences, which make the statement clearly false. That’s it

[slim dragon]

But in that case saying carno's blood pool was nerfed is like saying your salary has been lowered, although it literally hasn't. It'sz not a question of what the result is but it's poor wording

[stark knoll]

Differentiating between effective vs actual blood pool would prevent the semantic arguments from happening all the time but ultimately people are talking about the same thing regardless

[winter iris]

In fact if with inflation your salary stayed the same it is lower in real terms

[winter iris]

Balance is by definition the result of the stats, nothing else

[slim dragon]

Semantics
It's factually the same, but with less possibilities

[winter iris]

Not semantics, basic definitions actually. If with inflation your salary stays the same then it is lower in real terms

[stark knoll]

Keep this channel related to game balance, please

[winter iris]

Same for blood pool. You’re actually using semantics to state something that has got no meaning in real terms. The only thing that count is the outcome for balance. Same for the salary the only thing that counts is what you can buy what a given amount of money

[winter iris]

Yep, sorry. Was just trying to explain it in a way that was clearer. But apparently it wasn’t

[slim dragon]

Well lowering a playable's bloodpool is different than increasing its bleeding rate, since bleeding rate is tied to its locomotion, and not all of carno's bleeding rates have been changed. Therefore it matters wether people say "nerfed bloodpool" or "nerfed bleed rate" because the end result isn't the same.

[winter iris]

Ok, I’ll put it your way. Carno blood pool makes carno resist less to bleeding than it used to be. I didn’t use the word nerfed, so this should be ok now

[slim dragon]

It's not a problem with the usage of the word "nerf" -_-

[winter iris]

Then your point has got no implications on the actual outcome of the modification they’ve done on carno blood pool. So we’re discussing about nothing because it is clear to everyone that carno bleed resistance is rubbish right now

[golden coral]

The "problem" is that you're arguing a change that hasn't actually happened, which is an issue for proper feedback (and "misinformation" on what the devs have actually done, as well as where the issue lies) Sure, the result of a lower blood pool or a lessened resistance both yield the effect of bleeding being more dangerous, but you still need to acknowledge what the actual change is, in order to balance things properly. Since one change affects everything and the other only the specific movement, we can adjust things differently. Why not just refer to the nerf for what it is, a change in resistance to bleed when standing/walking/trotting (since run wasn't changed), when you argue if it should be changed and how. Would it maybe help if only the standing resistance was increased again? Would it be better to also add the walking but not the trotting (to give some more mobility but still limit the carno more)?

[thin mantle]

TLDR: Be as specific as possible when formatting feedback so both the devs and community don’t interpret a completely disconnected message from your feedback, resistance, bleed pool, and drain rates when taking actions are defined separately

[golden coral]

@winter irisAside from my issue with your choice of words, I do agree that the bleed nerf was unneccessary, and more importantly, should only have been done after utah had been properly tested with the new, well performing pounce.

If anything, that is a very good point you brought up, the tendency to both buff and nerf, with the usual results of taking things too far in one direction or the other.

[winter iris]

I think real misinformation is saying that carno blood pool hasn’t changed. Because people don’t see the effects of bleed rate when standing trotting etc, they see their blood pool going down 20 times faster than it used to despite fighting in the same way they used to. And with the current pounce and movements+acceleration nerfs for carno there’s no way you rest or don’t move in a fight with utahs (unless you decide to die anyway). As Utah player I also don’t find enjoyable when a carno is forced to go half in water to try and avoid bleeding out, it is just not good fun.
But anyway, I think I explained what I meant in the end

[golden coral]

Yes, you see your blood lowering faster. But that's all, you don't see if that's done due to less blood, or less resistance (taking more bleed damage). And I don't disagree with your balance sentiment, since I agree that carno got nerfed for no good reason.

So I'm all for reverting those changes, and see how well utah performs with just its new and "too" good pounce.

[hasty coyote]

2 pounces is incredibly generous. That would require carno to basically have no food, no water, and no stam (or be dumb enough to not buck). Even then iirc, it takes 3 if the carno doesnt keep running. If we take constantly walking at 30% food, 80% water, full stam, with a full bucked pounce as a ROUGH average, carno will lose about 30% bleed per pounce. This means it takes about 4 pounces to kill a carno. However, Utah’s damage is highly variable, so a good carno can likely make it up to like 5-6 pounces by knocking utahs off or making them too scared to pounce.

[winter iris]

Not sure if completely reversing it, but yes it could be a try. As I also said other times, it would have been better if they left everything as it was except hunger (which needed to be faster to avoid over population), at least better than now in order to have a “control” point to start balancing

[winter iris]

I have checked myself that a 0.5 seconds pounce (so literally clicking right button and that’s it) causes 10% bleeding to a standing carno that doesn’t move.
OFC 2 pounces are not enough to kill an adult carno, but it will have to basically stand still to avoid arriving to blood levels that are too critical. If the carno doesn’t kill the majority of utahs within the first 2 pounces or right after, its fighting style needs to change so much that it becomes very easy to land bites and other pounces. If it keeps running (as many times it has to in order to escape) it anyway arrives to critical blood levels, so it is dangerous and potentially deadly for him anyway
But yeah, just 2 pounces wouldn’t ne enough to kill a carno

[golden coral]

Well, if you reverse it, then it'd be like they left everything like it was, no? I think an interesting compromise might be to keep the trot resistance change, but not the walk and standing one. Thus putting carno more on the defensive, but still giving it a bit more breathing room compared to right now.

[hasty coyote]

Yes, but that applies to basically everything else that utahs fight. You have to start playing very defensively when you get low on bleed. Generally, I try to run myself to a good spot before getting too critical, because standing still in the open is just a death sentence. That tends to work very well. Especially if you stand near a tree(which are basically everywhere) you can just immediately scrape off any utahs. Even better if you stand near a bush with a tree.

[winter iris]

You can take 5-6 pounces if you’re in a good location for your fight, otherwise there’s no way because as of now bucking is not a good option because it drains too much stamina so the best way is to try and knock a Utah on a tree (that never works) or on rocks. So effectively, in real game terms, 4 or max 5 pounces are likely to kill a fighting carno in a relatively short time when fighting in a location that is not friendly to carno (I.e. narrow with obstacles but where it can move anyway)

[winter iris]

Teno has got more chances because it can 1 shot a utah and, if I’m not wrong, has got better bleeding

In fact As Utah killing a teno isn’t easy

[golden coral]

Yeah, carno is the only one that got bleed resistance nerfed I think. The rest are a bit better off, though current pounce and buck makes up for it pretty well I'd say.

[hasty coyote]

It has slightly better bleed and reward for hitting a utah, but struggles a bit more. Especially since it’s attacks cost stam, which the utahs are constantly draining and bleed limits it’s regen heavily.

[hasty coyote]

Plus, buck is always a good option because it severely limits the bleed you take from a pounce. Although, I do agree scraping is 10x better and you should generally do that first.

[winter iris]

Don’t know, as Utah I find killing carnos incredibly easy and killing tenos quite difficult. Teno has got incredible mobility, whilst carno mobility sucks

Also, apart from stego, teno is the strongest land playable by quite a lot. Even if I think it is probably ok as it is

[winter iris]

Yea probably a good compromise. I’d also slightly reduce the stamina drain when bucking. Especially when you buck baby or juvi utahs , also some reduction when bucking adults considering how strong pounce currently is

[golden coral]

As long as you don't move, maybe. If you move and buck, you lose massive amounts of stamina. Why they deicded to add a stam drain on utahs just being on you, combined with how efficient their bleed is and how useless buck is at that, is beyond me.

Just remove the stam drain on movement when pounced and it'd be worth bucking while trying to get to a better position since that's needed anyway as the only actual "counter" to a pounce as it stands.

Which is of course not so good of a situation in the first place, why can't we just have proper mechanics countering each other. Also would hopefully cut down on all the complaints about those actually using terrain as the counter.

[hasty coyote]

I can agree with a bleed nerf reversal, but I also don’t want any other buffs to carno exclusively, since that will impact every other matchup that is actually fine for once. If that doesn’t work, I’d just nerf utah.

[golden coral]

I don't think carno needs to be buffed, I think the main issue was that they both fixed the pounce, and nerfed carno at the same time.

Utah being way too easy and powerful aside from that particular matchup is an issue with utah and how it and pounce and all works.

[winter iris]

Yea that’s why I’m not sure on completely reversing carno stats to U4.5. In case I’d be more up to make acceleration slightly better than it is now and not touch other things, but just to make ram more reliable because now many times it doesn’t activate because a pixel slope can cause you to slow down , and accelerating again takes time

Like carno vs teno is quite nice now

[winter iris]

Of course I’d touch bleed resistance as you said …acceleration would be on top of that in case

[hasty coyote]

The issue with that is then it affects the pachy matchup, since pachy sometimes has to turn around and ram asap before the carno catches up. Buffing acceleration would make the small time frame to ram even slimmer, as well as affecting other situations with pachy. So I wouldn’t do that unless it was truely needed.

However I do agree charge can be a bit jankey. I’d personally make it a hold, so the moment you hit top speed, you start charging. Then when you let go of rmb, you stop (rather than having to stop sprinting to stop charging then start sprinting again).

[winter iris]

Yes this could be a thing indeed. Although, pachy ram takes priority on other things so actually what counts is if when pachy clicks the ram the opponent is in its hitbox, it doesn’t count if you moved to dodge it (at least this is what I was said when I noticed that it wasn’t possible to move right before pachy ram, hence like if I became a fixed target). Also, your suggestion of making ram a hold sounds good actually.
The only other thing I’d add for acceleration, is that it could also be made less than U4.5 and anyway in U4.5 it wasn’t impossible to fight a carno as pachy.

[hasty coyote]

That’s just lag/desync you can notice the same effect when teno tail slams a ramming carno. Plus, pachies have the opposite thing happen with them. You can ram a target, see them get knocked down, but they slide away and get up without a scratch. Since your side thinks you hit, it plays the animation, but the server thinks you missed so they don’t receive damage.

[winter iris]

Yeah probably, I was just told that on top of potential lag there’s also this other aspect (which I ignored honestly). For teno tail slam, ofc some of it may be caused by lag, but teno tail sla hit box is also huge

[primal harbor]

Well the diet system will be getting remade next update so it will work completely differently than this update and most likely will not be an issue anymore @winter iris @quiet knot

[quiet knot]

great to hear!! :D

[dusky surge]

@primal heart carno's alt-bite has more damage than its normal bite

it doesn't do 150

[primal heart]

Oh Maybe I was wrong,so how much damage it does？

[dusky surge]

around 200 iirc

[primal heart]

Ok...still 3 shoot a utha

I really think they should buff carno more,especially when no bigger carnivores will be release recently

(Recently=maybe another year )

[hasty coyote]

I don’t think buffing carno is a good idea (unless you mean specifically for the utah matchup with more bleed resistance). Carno v pachy and carno v teno are actually in a good spot atm, and any major change to carno will likely ruin those matchups. And carno presents a massive issue if it’s op (as we have seen in U4.5) since we they are faster than everything, there’s no counterplay other than to fight or hide. If you buff carno too much to fight utahs, you risk removing the counterplay of fighting them from pachy and teno. Removing the ability to fight makes getting spotted instant death. Which makes everyone go carno, which makes it harder to play anything else.

[old hull]

seeing alot of carno buff requests , but really you just have to adjust utah , like the missing a pounce having no punishment anymore is ridiculous and i dont get why that changed

tho giving carno its old damage back is not a bad idea , have it be a speedy glass cannon that cant take hits

[winter iris]

Agreed, buffing carno’s damage would need a change (maybe small) to the stats of the entire roster except stego and deino. For example pachy and Utah would maybe require additional hp. Also, carno can 3 shot a utah with normal bites as well, which I think is fine as long as bleed resistance will be increased. Additionally, carno can ram and this is the best way to enter a fight as carno (ramming your opponent). By doing so you can potentially kill the utah with 1 ram and 1 bite. If I remember correctly ram is about 250 or 300 damage

[old hull]

its kinda funny how carno was changed to not be braindead left click spamming anymore , but then utah had basically all its downsides removed so now it is the braindead 1 button spammer lol

[hasty coyote]

It’s 300, so you can potentially just 1-shot a utah with a headshot.

[vivid aurora]

I agree, with you. Carnos are especially weak to Utahs, Utah is easy to grow yet has a powerful bleed, really good stam AND speed. It can bleed almost anything out.

[dusky surge]

@primal harbor
1: Diablo is smaller, not larger, than teno
2: Dilo doesn't really solve anything stego-wise, it'd be as effective as a utah would be more than likely
3: Paleo-accurate utah would get OBLITERATED by Isle stego, no chance does it stand a chance

Paleo-accurate utah more than likely isn't pouncing its prey

[primal harbor]

that is why I said with Dilo and Utah would be iffy and I am not sure

they could help but we dont know enough

and yes diablos is about teno sized and I was going to mention this but word cap go brrrr. it will still fit the niche of something bigger than teno because based on how it was in legacy it was able to bully Mid-tiers very well

so with diablo I was saying "bigger than teno" balance wise rather than actual size

[dusky surge]

Diablo is smaller tho

[primal harbor]

I am aware

[dusky surge]

Like it's not going to operate how it did in legacy, you can't just assume it'll carry over

[primal harbor]

that is fair

[dusky surge]

Legacy portrayals of animals are up to complete rework or just outright scrapping

(because legacy is bad)

[primal harbor]

I will take diablo out of that because I was iffy with it too

I went ahead and put plateo in because that does make more sense

[ocean sentinel]

What about RPR?

I know that isn't going to do much against a Stego in particular, but it could be implemented into a sort of pounce move for use against targets up to a bit larger than the Utah.

[ocean sentinel]

To differentiate it from the current Utah, you could have Realistic Utah's RPR be more damage based, maybe even allow it to inflict a head fracture with enough hits (Utahraptor's bite force is often compared to that of modern crocodiles, so perhaps giving it a fracture move involving bite isn't that far fetched). As a trade off you can limit it's use to targets below a certain weight, making realistic Utah more of similar sized game hunter that has less punch up ability at the benefit of better at dealing with similar sized animals.

[winter iris]

First time I hear that Utah raptor had a bite force comparable to modern crocs (which have a huge bite force). Most of the info I found during time is that Utah bite force wasn’t probably very big because it didn’t need to considering it had also other ways to kill its prey

[ocean sentinel]

Well, I'll admit I don't even know where I got that from

It's probably just an assumption based on a lack of studies done on that matter, which isn't exactly the most reliable thing in the world.

I remember it's skull looking a bit more robust, but I'm looking up pictures and it doesn't seem consistent.

[winter iris]

Since when herbivores are able to track?

[neon willow]

Herbivores don't see footprints but they can smell blood like anything else so if you bleed they can track that

[winter iris]

Ok, so considering that now the tracking system is basically useless, they pretty much have the same ability as carnivores hehe

[slim dragon]

On the other hand it wouldn't make sensefor herbis to be unable to smell blood...

It already doesn't make much sense that they can't smell footprints

[winter iris]

Then why shouldn’t carnivores be able to smell plants?

[slim dragon]

Because it serves no purpose to them ?
But I wouldn't mind if they could either

[winter iris]

I wouldn’t allow carnivores to smell plants, but the logic would be the same, that was my point.
And the reason for which herbies don’t follow tracks is because they have other skills in the game, even if it could in some way be realistic. Anyway, I am not 100% sure but I don’t think herbivores in nature are able to follow tracks (not even all carnivores though)

[hasty coyote]

Why not give them both the things they lack, but weaker.
Herbivores can smell tracks, but only like 1/5th and they have to be on the ground for a while. So you can tell something is there, but you don’t know what.
Then carnivores are able to smell plants that have been eaten from after a bit. Or, rotting plants if they go that route.

[slim dragon]

Herbivores in nature are 100% able to smell tracks
Well actually irl you don't smell tracks you smell the other guy
But if a deer can smell a hunter from 100 meters away, I can assure you they can smell when they're literally walking in the tracks of a predator

I don't see what's the problem in letting herbis smell track either since they can't focus and track them anyway

[hasty coyote]

Also herbies cant “track”

[slim dragon]

Honestly though the compass gets kinda cluttered when you can smell plants, for carnis it would feel like an annoyance rather than something useful in most cases

[winter iris]

My point was more based on the fact that whilst players using carnivores need to kill to survive, players using herbivores don’t. So giving herbivores players that possibility, considering they have a lot more stamina, would mean that a carnivore would never be able to run away from a fight (that he has to pick up to survive). Additionally, with the current roster,teno is already by far stronger than other land playables (not stego ofc), so giving it also the possibility to track things down would destroy the balance. And that’s basically the same reason for which I think they shouldn’t even be able to follow blood tracks as accurately as carnivores. If you kill the opponent during the fight, good, if you track him coz he didn’t chose a location that has an escape, good, but hunting down your opponent to kill it (as if it was needed for your survival) seems a bit too much of an advantage to me

[slim dragon]

Herbivores are already slower than carnivores and can't sniff while moving
I think that's enough for them to be unable to track and, honestly, I've never seen herbivores ever track down carnivores who went further away than 50 meters

[winter iris]

Well, also carnivores basically can’t sniff while moving. You dint detect anything unless its literally 5m from you. Otherwise you have to stop and sniff

[winter iris]

Happened to me like 80% of the times I had fights

[slim dragon]

The range is much more than 5m

[winter iris]

They are slower, but they are not that slow. For example Teno, compared to carno (its main fight), is slower but has got way more stamina and better acceleration, massively better manoeuvrability, way stronger attacks. So as teno if you die to a carno is mainly because you’ve been doing worst than carno during the fight, considering the majority of advantages on on teno’s side

[neon willow]

But insofar as tracking utility, a carno has the speed to render footprints useless for tracking as a teno, even if they could see footprints

[neon willow]

I mean I've found dinos based only off their footprints before. It's not as reliable as tracking blood but it does work okay as long as you can somewhat keep up with the dino

[ocean sentinel]

To be far giving herbivores tracking could allow them to group up easier

They could track down each other

[winter iris]

That’s not true. Teno has got so much stamina that could track down a carno for hours. With blood they already can track you , hunt you and find you pretty much all the times (if they decide to come after you)

[neon willow]

I've seen a Utah pack lose a carno even with tracking just because the carno turned and ran away. Footsteps fade with distance and don't last that long so by the time the carno is near render distance you can no longer follow their footprints. And of course after they hit render it's a moot point anyways.

And tenos are much slower than Utah's, so again tenos would not be able to track a carno for hours if the carno was actually trying to get away

Also at least adult tenos cannot run for hours. Maybe a minute or two if you use absolutely all your Stam (which I don't like doing because the attacks use Stam)

[spring dagger]

I think allowing herbis to walk and sniff is good for the game, I disagree with tracking however. Tracking should be a carnivore exclusive thing just for the sake of balancing. Herbivore tracking just reminds me of the days of pachy u4 release too much and that physically hurts me

[dusky surge]

herbis should be allowed to smell blood, corpses, but not footprints

[loud geyser]

@west sierra Migration system coming next update what will be a complete rework of the current diet system so wait for that and then complain^^

[opaque beacon]

Do people still think stego is balanced?

[somber sphinx]

as much as i hate stego for this current roster it is "balanced"

kind of

[keen plover]

Why are people against the idea of juvi rex being fast?

[dusky surge]

who's against it?

the most recent post hasn't gotten any negative reactions and basically wants juvi rex to be fast

[keen plover]

The one above it. Is it because of the wording?

[dusky surge]

ohhh

i think its because it implies they want juvi rex to be the FASTEST therapod

which is silly

[keen plover]

Depends how fast tbf. I don't think anything should be faster than carno

[bright oasis]

Juvi rex should have some capability of speed but not be like, utah fast either. They still need to be hunted as they're apex juvis, so maybe making it around 30-35 km or so. Make it much slower and it would get run down by almost all adults, and if it was any faster it would be a but difficult to hunt as it would be faster than the things that should be hunting it. It needs good survivability but not be too fast to die.

[ocean sentinel]

That depends on its stamina capacity and regen

If it has poor endurance it should be able to get away with pretty impressive top speed.

[primal harbor]

And this is why it makes no sense to put rex in this ecosystem

Rex was so op irl they have to do the dumbest things to nerf it

Because rex has by far the strongest bite EVER, It's juvenile stage is built similarly to an ornithomimusaur so it is insanely fast, then it bulks up quick then is able to take on really anything it's size or smaller

I heard something about them making adult rex slower than a human in this game which is like 💀

Balancing apexes is one thing but balancing rex itself is..... hell

[stark knoll]

Rex back then is like komodo dragons now

List what they're capable of and you have the definition of an OP playable

[primal harbor]

You mean legacy?

Or like prehistorically

Oh I get what you mean lmfao

Idk it feels like you can balance komodos a lot easier than with rex because rex was a literal ecosystem destroyer

Everything in hell creek was specifically built to fight rex and if you weren't you were somewhere else or dead lmao

[stark knoll]

Strongest bite like, ever
Juveniles were possibly the fastest theropods ever
Potentially had an immense sense of smell
Potentially had amazing vision
Potentially had amazing endurance
Potentially had near-silent footsteps, like most other theropods, even at 8+ tons

The silent footsteps I feel would be the worst part of balance and IMO shouldn't be included

[primal harbor]

[stark knoll]

As it'd mean EVERY theropod would almost be undetectable before you see/smell it

[primal harbor]

Yeah I do understand the devs making the footsteps loud

But I also think they are too loud in legacy and I dislike the sound effects themselves in evrima

Like why does carno have thunderous booms?

[stark knoll]

I wouldn't be surprised if carno's footsteps get their volume adjusted once we get more large animals

Since right now they're LOUD, and most of our theropods are even bigger

[primal harbor]

It's not even the volume it's the sound effect itself

For its size it makes no sense

Back to rex, I do think there are some ways to balance rex but if you nerf it so much it just won't be rex anymore besides the name as well

[ocean sentinel]

From a realistic perspective an atheletic human would be able to outrun an adult Rex, from a gameplay perspective having humans being able to run faster than a Rex while also able to use guns capable of dealing significant damage to it is a bad idea, so at least one of those would have to go.

[primal harbor]

unless they have some weird genetic things going on cuz i have heard that it is implied that these humans were made genetically I guess that makes sense but they should have absolutely nothing on them, I do wish there is a weight system that slows you down because if you have guns equipped with armor you will DEFINATLY be slower than rex

So an isle human at top speed with nothing on them should be able to go faster maybe but any other gear, armor, weapons or full inventory rex should be faster

Ig that would be a good way to balance it

[ocean sentinel]

Its already bad enough humans could potentially get away with circle camping big dinos while they shoot at them, don't need them to run faster too.

[primal harbor]

That is what I mean, if they have guns or any major gear on them it should slow them down quite a bit

A weight system would actually balance the guns a bit I think

[ocean sentinel]

If they can match the dino in speed and maneuverability, they could literally just camp under them where none of their attacks could land, which would be horrible to deal with.

And there's no way the Rex is going to be able to outmaneuver a human, so it will need the speed.

[primal harbor]

Well I personally think if you can just be under them you should get trampled

Like apex's should just trample humans to make them easier to kill

[ocean sentinel]

Maybe, but that requires their feet to actually step on you. It does at least add another complication to camping under them, but if they can find a spot none of the feet or attacks can hit, they could still do it, though I'm not sure how difficult it would be.

[primal harbor]

It would be very hard to, at that point you are nitpicking and it would be a death wish either way

And the only time like I said someone can be faster than an apex is when they have very little gear

So doing that with melee makes no sense lmao

Going off of the weight system I had in mind I mean

[ocean sentinel]

I've seen my fair share of people circle camping large dinos to death with guns in another game, and the Isle's mechanics give me no reason to think it would go differently, other than maybe ALT attacks, then again I'm not sure exactly how humans will perform.

So no I'm not nitpicking, I am expressing concern based on past experiences where the conditions may line up closely enough for the same issue to occur.

[primal harbor]

You weren't talking about circle camping you were talking about standing under the dinosaur WHILE trample exists

I do see circle camping probably being an issue as well

[ocean sentinel]

I did talk about circle camping

And yes admittedly it stray away from that, but in the end of the day the concept is similar

Its camping in a spot relative to your target where they simply can't hit you.

[primal harbor]

Fair

But once again that is why I think a weight system is needed

[ocean sentinel]

It would definitely help

[primal harbor]

In my head you will be forced to out gun them as you are not nimble with a lot of gear but when you have nothing you will be forced to be nimble to get away

[slim dragon]

@primal harbor It would feel better and be more realistic if heavy gear affected stamina consumption and regeneration instead of movement speed

[primal harbor]

I think speed should be a big part otherwise fully geared people would be able to get away with what people with nothing on them could do but with a gun

[slim dragon]

But moving slow because of your gear is straight-up annoying and breaks group cohesion if someone is lightly-armored and another one fully geared

It's also much easier to balance something around stamina than around speed

[primal harbor]

Not really?

Like stamina should be effected but speed should be the main thing

[slim dragon]

The difference between outrunning something or not is huge

[slim dragon]

I'm tired of videogames making people believe you can't run in heavy armor

[primal harbor]

Because if you are very heavy and have a lot of gear you are going to be slower

[slim dragon]

This is exactly what I'm talking about

[primal harbor]

When did I ever say you can't run

I said overall slower

[slim dragon]

If you are overburdened, you may go a bit slower, but military gear is designed to not over-burden people. It's just more tiring to run with heavy gear than with nothing, and you're just a tiny bit slower

[slim dragon]

"speed should be the main thing"
There's the problem
It shouldn't be

[primal harbor]

I think tarkov is a pretty good example, it's a good balance of Stam and speed getting lowered

If you have a full inventory and have really good gear you are going to be slowed down either way

and it balances people being fully geared being able to out maneuver things like you would if you have nothing

[slim dragon]

You still can't outmanoueuver something if your stamina depletes in 30 seconds

[primal harbor]

you kinda can

[slim dragon]

not for long

[primal harbor]

you realize a gun is in the equation right?

[slim dragon]

and ?

[primal harbor]

id say it is out maneuvered if it is dead

[slim dragon]

You think it will take less than 30 seconds to kill a rex with a gun ?

[primal harbor]

I am not talking about the biggest things in the game tf 💀

[slim dragon]

Also how fast you can run doesn't matter if The Isle is like every other fps and you can't run backwards...

[slim dragon]

But then they won't be outmanoeuvered because apart from rex, stego anky and sauropods I don't see what will be slower than a human

[ocean sentinel]

Speed and maneuverability are not the same thing

[slim dragon]

This is not legacy anymore where dinos move like cars

[ocean sentinel]

Carno could certainly outrun a human, but its worth asking if a human could circle camp it.

[slim dragon]

It couldn't
Because carno can also trot and turn in place

[ocean sentinel]

Carno turning in place doesn't seem that fast.

[slim dragon]

And I don't think a human run would be much faster than carno's trot

[ocean sentinel]

Even the ALT bite has quite a bit of telegraphing and gives ample time to change course and avoid.

[slim dragon]

It's definitely not slow enough to allow someone to circle it

[ocean sentinel]

I'm not sure exactly what it's turn speed is, would be useful if someone here has a clip of it turning 360

But I played it a bit recently and it felt pretty slow.

[primal harbor]

WHAT LMAO

dude carno is meant to have a really bad turn speed lmao

[slim dragon]

And ?

[primal harbor]

a top speed human could 100% outrun it turning

[slim dragon]

You know you have to run REALLY fast to circle something that is standing still ?

or even moving towards you for all that it matters

[primal harbor]

especially since carnos turn is really bad while it is sprinting and it is probably sprinting at you and with the momentum you could probably juke a carno in the forest

[slim dragon]

Alright
Can a teno circle a carno and prevent it from attacking it at all ?
Cause a human isn't gonna be faster than that

[primal harbor]

no but teno is long asf 💀

you are literally saying speed is the only thing that matters

if a teno is behind it you can pretty much hit it because if its tail

[slim dragon]

So you're saying if a teno tried doing that to a carno it's guaranteed to only take tail hits ?

[primal harbor]

and it would be easier to alt bite because it is longer

and teno does not have as much of a turn radius compared to what humans would have

teno and humans are very different my guy

[slim dragon]

You also assume than human speed will be increased compared to how it was in the mechanic test

Because back them humans could circle anything but deinos (but because the bite hitbox was lame af)

They could dodge carno charges, but that's all

[primal harbor]

humans were also not out long enough for people to somehow abuse their movement because with enough time someone could probably figure some really irritating stuff out

[slim dragon]

People did figure out how to solo adult deinos with only kicks
If they could do the same to carnos I'm pretty sure they would have done it

[primal harbor]

there will be those "movement god" people who will know exactly how to dodge a ton of attacks on a dino and imagine that with a GUN

A GUN

even if it is not that much time because of stam as long as people have movement they will be able to pull shiit

[slim dragon]

So it boils down to "please make something unviable because otherwise I'm afraid someone will manage to do sick things with it" ?

[primal harbor]

not really sick its more abusable

its something that the devs obviously did not intend

[slim dragon]

You may have to rethink your definition of "abuse"

Because then is a raptor soloing a stego by dodging all of its attacks and timing its pounces very well considered abuse ?

If a dryo attacks a resting deino afking and kills it, is it abuse ?

[primal harbor]

like movement in tarkov, the devs do not want that, in there are so many "movement" issues that it use to ruin the game until the devs added a ton of inertia

[primal harbor]

?

you are making no sense

[slim dragon]

Dryo is definitely not intended to kill deinos, therefore by your definition of abuse, if it somehow manages to kill one then it's abuse

[primal harbor]

I mean in normal circumstances

[slim dragon]

What about the raptor example then ?

[ocean sentinel]

Trust me there's a lot that can go wrong that I don't think the Isle community is aware of. Use Primal Carnage as an example. There you would have people who abused the fact that turn radius in FPS games is solely dependent on mouse movement and sensitivity to jump, turn and shoot, and turn back to keep running to attack without ever slowing down. You have people would use subtly terrain features to climb into unreachable areas and shoot down on dinos. And yes you'd have circle camping, a lot of it, it was regularly used tactic. Yes the Isle is a different game, but not only is turn rate still a factor, from what I've seen dinos in the Isle are a bit less maneuverable on average.

[slim dragon]

Should omniraptor be nerfed because there's 10 people in the world that can solo a stego ?

[primal harbor]

this

[slim dragon]

Are you joking ? Dinos in primal carnage move so much like trucks that I've seen plenty of people die off cliffs because they were too close and didn't have enough space to turn back (also happened to me)

[ocean sentinel]

A pachy in primal carnage extinction turns way faster than a Carno in Evrima.

[slim dragon]

What if you compared PCE carno to evrima carno instead ?

[ocean sentinel]

I don't see PC:E Carnos run off cliffs too often. From memory I can't really compare, it would be useful to have a clip of both turning.

It definitely feels a lot more maneuverable in game, that's for sure.

[primal harbor]

another thing to add on for isle is humans will be decently hard to hit as a lot of big things as well

because they arent long like teno

with things that are bigger you are pretty much biting at a spec

cuz remember, isles dryo is about as tall as a human

[ocean sentinel]

But that could be due to things like jump turning to rapidly turn 180 while sprinting or getting stuck on walls to suddenly jolt in another direction without losing momentum. In terms of pure turn speed while walking, hard to tell.

[primal harbor]

so imagine dryo but you are only hitting the head and a bit slower

[ocean sentinel]

Also it should noted that if you stop to turn faster, they could just run out of ranged, and if you run after them, they could start circling you again. To be fair this could just be accepted as part of the combat, as it comes down to who can better time their changes in movement, but it does means humans could definitely evade a Carno's attacks effectively and needs to be considered for balancing.

[zenith canyon]

Disagree with the juvie Rex speed feedback being „much“ faster than adult version

I am just not fully but a bit more a fan from the legacy juvie aspects being weaker slower to their adult version. All in all juvies in general being based more on hiding than outrunning most Stuff is the goal of the horror gameplay the game as well aims for and overall it sounds better for me. When juvie Rex outspeeds a adult Rex, it will include him being able to outspeed other apex as well which I don’t like at all. This is just a personal preference of the juvie gameplay being more like legacy’s hide and seek

[primal harbor]

it makes sense to do that for a juvi here and there but overall it is not too much fun, something the devs should do is rather than having juveniles be just very bad versions of the adults you alter their stats so they have a different niche as they grow up like actual animals

so rather than just being a bad rex, the juvi would be very fast but not do too much damage so it would be going after completely different things than the adult

it would be going after things different than the adult either way but giving it lets say speed or some other things will make it so as a juvi you can specialize on specific things

Tyrannosaurus irl had such a successful juvenile stage there were barley anything around its size, in general where there are tyrannosaurs there are like.... no "medium" sized carnivores

[ocean sentinel]

Problem with forcing them to hide is that more often then not, thats all they do. They just sit in bushes AFK growing for long periods of time and only come to maintain their hunger and thirst meters.

Its harder to do with carnivores, but its not impossible. Deino in particulary has places juvis can live just fine with basically 0 risks.

[zenith canyon]

People do that regardless of any changes

[keen plover]

Carno exists * and 30-35km is SLOW. Imo, juvi rex being around utah speed is fine. You also have to take into account that larger medium sized theropods exist like allo (which is fast), so anything too slow and it will just be food the moment it's spotted.

[bright oasis]

I suppose all things considering it could be bumped up to 40-45, but without knowing how fast its predators are it's hard to place a speed for it without it seeming like too much yk

[ocean sentinel]

Some people will, yes, but the less you encourage it the less people will do it.

[sand smelt]

juvi rex being 40-45 probably isn't realistic, what I am trying to say is 40-45 is very fast for a creature built for raw strength and muscle

[slim dragon]

Juvie rex was theorized to go above 50 km/h

[tranquil pawn]

I did say proportionally, not in general just faster in base speed, I meant proportional speed.

[zenith canyon]

„it should definitely be much faster proportionally than adult rex“
The sentence makes no sense then if you mean equal speed?

Can you change it to: „ definitely be proportional to adult Rex“

[tranquil pawn]

I mean faster for the size

Baby utahs are much faster than adult utahs proportionally

but not in actual speed

I don't see how the sentence doesn't make sense, proportionally to size, juvenile rex should be faster

[azure crescent]

juvie and subadult rex IRL were around that speed, if not faster

this is because earlier stages of a rex's life aren't as bulky as the adults

[primal harbor]

Even its younger it's built almost like an ornithomimid

It is fuucked

[tall bronze]

I like the idea of Juvie Rex being all about speed but kinda frail and weak in other areas. :3

[sand smelt]

technically they are well thought out estimates, and there is no definitive proof

being so fast as a juvi-sub would make catching them very difficult for larger slower creatures capable of killing them, and anything smaller would be unable to run away, which wouldn't be very balanced, as it would likely be easier to grow in comparison to other apexes

[dusky surge]

@sand smelt Carno doesn't need a buff to bleed resist, it just needs the changes to its bleed movement modifiers reverted

[sand smelt]

It needs to not bleed out from 2-3 tap pounces

[thin mantle]

Same thing

[dusky surge]

That's what I said, yea

[primal harbor]

Yes they are, doesn't change the fact that juvi rex would be around that speed

[sand smelt]

but the balance

I could say I doubt carnos in real life bled like fire hydrants, but it's for the balance 🙂

[primal harbor]

To be fair that we do not know much anything about

While just off of proportions if you do not make it around that speed it will look awkward

Hell look at juvi Utah, it is way too fast so the running animation is funky as hell

It not tightrope walking doesn't help

And it is also a juvi, everything else could be DRASTICALLY low on stats, they could just make it a good runner so it can get smaller things and AI easily

I'm just saying being fast is juvi Rex's thing and if you take that away then at has nothing really

[maiden temple]

Carno should have a different bleed multiplier when standing still, I feel like that's the middle ground between running like mad and basically killing yourself and getting slowly murdered just standing around raptors after pounce

[keen plover]

The issue people had, which I thought was fine, was that previously - carno could tank multiple pounces and just stand still and be fine. Although it couldn't run, it could still defend itself. They didn't like the idea of the bleeder playable actually taking time to kill an opponent lol.

[thin mantle]

It continues to baffle me how much issue many take with Utah not killing its targets expediently….that’s it’s whole point, or well….that was it’s point, now I think it has more consistent stopping power than it warrants generally

[unborn iris]

Agreed, I would really like to get the impact pounce removed and actually need to land pounces again, if they've fixed the ghost pounce issue.. which seems like they did. Utah is way too easy right now. My favorite dino and I don't even play it because it's a joke. They increased utah's hunger pool and intake because it's meant to be a slow killer.

With that being said, there's still some issues with dismount. If the target being pounced just stands on the edge of a hill or drop or anything you can't directional dismount, you just do the default launch straight off the side. Would be nice if they could get that figured out. Maybe something to do with pathing somehow.
Would give a little more outplayability to the rather easy "stand beside tree or cliff" to negate pounce meta.

[sand smelt]

#balance-feedback message @vocal pivot, what you could do if you see a stego mixpacking with another species is run away since the rest of the mixpack has to wait for the stegos to arrive, assuming you can kill the other species in the mixpack...

[golden coral]

@sand smeltIngame biteforce does not correlate to anything irl, see it as a damage number, nothing more. And if you want deino to onetap a stego it'd need a damage value of 3000 at the least.

[sand smelt]

I was kidding, about the deino nerf I am surprised if anybody took that seriously :/

[ocean sentinel]

I wouldn't mind Deino actually being a threat Stego, but oneshotting it even with a head hit seems unfair. If it were to jump it while drinking the Stego would have no counter play, at least give it time to turn it's head out of the way.

[thin mantle]

People are that dumb trust me....

[hollow canyon]

Deino is a threat to Stego

it just takes a lot of skill on the side of Deino to kill one

[ocean sentinel]

The only way I can think of Deino actually threatening a Stego that isn't caught in deep water is if you had at least two, with one rushing it and lunging to stun it while the other ALT bite spams it's head, but I have yet to try this so can't confirm its effective, and even if it was I certainly wouldn't consider it skill intensive, just basic teamwork and surface level knowledge of Deinos few attacks.

[hollow canyon]

Not at all, I can send you some videos of a Deino killing Stegos

you generally need to protect your head and land headshots on the Stego

Stego takes a lot of damage from headshots

you are very low to the ground so it is relatively easy for Stego to miss your own head

I myself have killed Stegos with Deino by clipping under their feet and making it impossible for them to land hits on my head

but that method is a bit buggy so I wouldn't suggest it

https://youtu.be/66kISY7m09o?t=151

this guy kills Stegos quite often

check his videos and see how it's done is my suggestion

admittedly as per what he says - he's got over 2k hour on Deino so

go on some free growth server and practice what he does if you want to do it consistently I think

either way Deino is definitely a threat to Stego but it has to be controlled by a competent player

Deino in general is extremely powerful in the game, in a way so much so that people get decent results by playing it without much effort and all around rather poorly, most of Deino players in my experience aren't very good at actual fighting(which to be fair is perhaps not what this playable is supposed to be focused on as it's an ambush predator)

[ocean sentinel]

I'll check it out later

[vocal pivot]

Stego lovers I swear to god

[broken hull]

I hate stegos

[night compass]

Just because I think that stego shouldn't be removed, doesn't mean I'm a stego lover, sir or ma'am. Actually, I happen to be a pachy, and teno lover. Also, I don't think they should remove the stego, just to add it back later, it seems counterproductive.

Another thing, just because I reacted with a salt emoji, doesn't mean you should come to my DM's saying stego lover. That's pretty childish.

[golden coral]

Considering how that feedback reads, and how 90% of it is just more or less outright wrong, I'm not surprised it got that kind of reaction. Would be a lot better if it was proper feedback and not just a "rant".

[broken hull]

Stego tail swipe should do less damage against deinos since deinos have thick armored scales

When a stego hit the head then it should do the damage as a body hit with the tail

[slim dragon]

Balancing 1 specific attack's damage against 1 specific target is never gonna happen.

[broken hull]

I know

[slim dragon]

And deino's armor is already taken into consideration into the game since it has a 50% bleed resistance

[broken hull]

Doesn’t make sense to me since it have 50% bleed resistance since it can get killed easily by a stego

[slim dragon]

Deino VS stego shouldn't be in favor of deino anyways

[ocean sentinel]

Stego should definitely be at an advantage overall, but not enough that it shouldn't fear Deinos.

[broken hull]

Right

That’s what I want to say

[golden coral]

@vocal pivot I'd like to see that video, are you sure it's not just doing the quick standing anim and then swinging? As for hitbox, considering current performance, I don't know if that's a hitbox issue, or just lag or ping or any other reason. And the tail hit thing, could be that if you strike the tail, and also hit the body, it does body damage I believe. This was fixed because earlier, when the first hitbox hit counted, omnis could and would "tailtank" and get away with taking hits they really shouldn't. But if you get a proper tailhit, it should not do the same as a body hit, since deino has locational damage as well, as far as I know.

[golden coral]

Well, stegos do fear deinos, at least stegos that know how deinos can kill them do.

[vocal pivot]

Sure thing but I’m not home atm

[golden coral]

No worries, just poke me when you got the video. Also, much better feedback this time around!

[hollow canyon]

Deino's armour wouldn't be able to withstand a whack from a thagomizer of a 6t+ Stegosaurus.

iirc that thing could produce some 1.3M kilopascals of force last I've read about it

[wraith relic]

I think the rename my take out half utahs players base, some people who main it might think it’s gone

[hollow canyon]

the vast majority of the Utah playerbase only play this animal because of how broken it is anyways

as long as the animal is good people will play it, I also doubt anyone is actually leaving the game just because some animal got dropped(if that was to even happen)

[golden coral]

I doubt it, omni or "utah", it's a JP raptor, that'll guarantee it's popular

[marsh marsh]

True and people will leave also leave the game if some playables wont get nerfed like utah/omni because of how frustrating it is dying to them

[sand smelt]

That was obviously a joke, which I why I didn't address it in the main paragraph it's aimed at pachy and carno

I like how I made a joke abotu buffing deino to unrealistic amounts, and that's all people decided to address, and not the actualy problems I addressed :/

[stark knoll]

That's generally because #balance-feedback isn't the place for jokes

How should anyone know it's a joke?

[sand smelt]

obviously the deino shouldn't have 10,250 bite force

but I removed that from the paragraph since people though I was actually serious about making deinos bite 21x stronger

[stark knoll]

People have made serious suggestions for that in the past

[sand smelt]

Solis is home now, you can ask him for the stego footage

honestly in the next update instead of piling nerfs/buffs onto single species such as Utah for example anytime you nerf something give it a small buff as well so is playable at the least, would be my suggestion for the devs, to keep every species somewhat playable. I've seen 12 Dryos since the update, 2 Hypsis, 10-15 Stegos, 7 Tenos, 20-25 Deinos, 8 Carnos, 2 Pteranodon (probably because they're flying), but I will see massive packs of Utahs because they can kill anything other than a stego

barely any players not playing Utah, because Utah is just so good people get annoyed, and assimilated into the Utah playerbase

[sand smelt]

:/ really, deino wouldn't even be fun if it one-tapped everything

[stark knoll]

The only thing it wouldn't 1 shot would be sauropods, and I've seen serious suggestion for deino to 1shot them too

[ocean sentinel]

Yeah never underestimate how dumb a serious suggestion can get

[hollow canyon]

I think I vaguely recall one person being very vehement about Deinosuchus being capable of oneshotting a Brachiosaurus with a headshot back in 2019.

[tall bronze]

I remember.....

I'm all for having it's bite feel like a proper gator bite, but that is um.....a bit much.

🤏

[hollow canyon]

Regarding this - Utah hasn't just been overbuffed in a single update. It actually only really received like one buff in update 5. It's just that its pounce got fixed following a long line of buffs lining up one on top of the other which the animal received between August 2021 and now.

The animal definitely needs some nerfs, the fact that it applies such an absurd amount of bleed while also draining opponent's stamina and having a borderline non-existent recovery makes Utahraptor too good, especially that its main predator got nerfed into the ground.

[tall bronze]

And bucking, the thing you're supposed to use against a pouncing Utah, actually makes things worse. So basically pounce....

• Applies high amounts of bleed (which hinders stamina regeneration greatly)
• Drains stamina if you simply move with it on you
• Has little downside when the target bucks
• Is not affected by bucking differently based on size (so a Juvie takes as much to buck off as an adult)

And to make it all even worse, bucking absolutely tanks your stamina. The thing you REALLY need.

So no stam allowed basically

It feels like someone took the concept of pro/con and put like 1 con against 50 pros

[hollow canyon]

Yes bucking got nerfed into the ground too

[vocal pivot]

@obsidian yacht how are you gonna dislike my feedback are you just a straight up stego lover like I’m literally saying stuff that is game break and everyone in the community is saying

You make zero sense like actually

[somber sphinx]

bro

Just because he disliked it dosent mean he’s a stego lover

[vocal pivot]

Bro like how are you gonna dislike it

Like it’s game breaking and not fair it’s just to powerful and can hit for miles away

Literally how is that not a stego lover would disagree with

[somber sphinx]

Can you show me the vid of the stego doing that then?

[stark knoll]

You've already been warned about keeping these channels constructive

If you have a bug to report, use #🐞-evrima-bug-reports-🐞

[vocal pivot]

It is

How is it not ?

[stark knoll]

Harassing and belittling someone for disagreeing with your post is not constructive

[mighty oxide]

[vocal pivot]

It’s not belittling it’s me asking how is it not just straight toxic to disagree with factual game breaking things that it has

[stark knoll]

And it seems to me like you're trying to report bugs instead of making balance feedback, for that, you should use #🐞-evrima-bug-reports-🐞

[somber sphinx]

[vocal pivot]

I get warned after taking up for myself against passive aggressive toxic behavior

Interesting

[stark knoll]

They put an X on your post, that's expected in the channel

[vocal pivot]

Mmmk

[golden coral]

@vocal pivotDo you have the video to show me? Aside from that potential bug or issue, I think stego is fine, especially these days when deinos are seemingly getting the hang of how to solo and duo stegos, and even hunt them on land if they have a "megapack" sort of.

[vocal pivot]

Lookin through my clips

And dude stego can hit you in the tail from so far away and it does massive damage

How does that make any sense

I wasn’t a deino when this happened

[golden coral]

Considering issues with performance, I can't say if the hit from "far away" is an issue with the hitbox or just lag or something. And well, yes, it does damage. That makes sense?

[hollow canyon]

because those things aren't factual, Stego hitting you from a mile away is a ping issue, in normal circumstances that doesn't happen

Stego is alright, it may at best have a slightly too good of a match up with Deino but just by a tiny bit if at all

It's perfectly fine with regard to the rest of the roster

and before you call me a "stego-lover", I find it to be the most boring animal in the game and I've played it only once since it came out - back in December 2020 shortly after its release, I'd have to get paid to play this snoozefest of an animal again

[tall bronze]

Stego exists which makes me dislike it

Really hope they go with the idea of it becoming AI only once Kentro is introduced.

And before anyone says "but that creates land Deinos!"

🚶 🐊

[golden coral]

Kentro would be fun, and hopefully more of a proper stego than stego currently is! Though people would have to get used to either never making any kills remotely near the shoreline, or have all their kills stolen. So that should be fun for the carnis I guess.

[vocal pivot]

Dondi literally said in his stream stego is to strong to be in player hands and should be ai only

[golden coral]

Meanwhile, deino being the superior playable between stego and deino. But then Dondi may not have the best understanding of balance in the game I suppose.

@sick streamDeinos can absolutely 2v1 a stego, even 1v1 it if they go about it right.

Besides, considering how OP deino is overall, and vs everything else, it's probably good that it has something it can't just oneshot.

[sick stream]

Ok, maybe some skilled deino player might do it, but, like, I know they can't do this, but a deino bite to a stego's head should crush it instantly, so I think it should be more of a short fight than a 15+ min battle

[sick stream]

I woulnt say deino is that op, it has to eat really often, and it fulfills it role of making drinking harder for land players pretty well

[golden coral]

Yeah, realistically that'd happen. Realistically deino would also die from thagomizers to the head, and realistically, our omni would not be pouncing. And so on. It's already a rather short fight from what I know when the fight does happen.

[hasty coyote]

Granted I was fighting 2 of the dumbest stegos in existence, but I managed to 1v2 stegos as a half grown deino (I was like 4 tons). You just need to position yourself to bite their face, and they will only be able to hit your tail

[sick stream]

I woudnt say im the best player at any dino at all, probs not even intermediate, but then it comes back to opinions.

[golden coral]

I don't know, maybe OP isn't the right word, but just consider all of this. A, it can grow 90% safe, more or less. B, it has a guaranteed food source in fish that both give a nutrient (so no negative diet) and can feed two grown gators perfectly well in the right spots. C, it's immune to being hunted by anything aside from another deino (or two vs one most likely). D, even on land, nothing short of a stego, or a megapack of carnos or extreme megapack of utahs can actually defeat it. E, if it does get into trouble on land, it can retreat safely to a biome where nothing else can touch it, completely wasting any effort a terrestial has done since it can now safely recover (unless it has somehow taken so much bleed it will bleed out, but that's hard with the extra resist and 8K bloodpool it has).

[sick stream]

anyway, I'll just retract my feedback, I got called out for it and im not super aboard editing it

[ocean sentinel]

I'd like it if Deino was harder to grow, but a bit more powerful and interacted with the rest of roster more, so it would be worth the effort.

[golden coral]

It also has a actually vaguely useful and fun juvie/sub stage, and can escape larger members of it's species, something I'm not sure stego can do any longer (honestly not sure if subs are fast enough to escape an adult these days). And while stego does have the guaranteed food in grazing (vunerable as that makes you with such low food) and easier to get good/perfect diet, it is more vunerable to being hunted during it's growth. And more vunerable to being hunted when fully grown.

[hasty coyote]

Honestly, it just takes a bit of coordination and precision. One deino lunges out the water and bites it’s head. You need to make sure you stay on its head while alt biting. If it runs then back off. While the first one is fighting, a second then lunges to also stun the stego. This stun alone should give you enough time to land like 2-3 headshots, which is about half its hp.

[golden coral]

Also juvie stego is kind of, not at all something you can play actively. At least not unless I've missed some amazing trick that makes it viable.

[ocean sentinel]

Yeah growing a juvi Stego is like watching paint dry, you just spent 95% of it sitting in a bush

[golden coral]

Neither of them are any fun to grow at all, but deino has some potential fun, or so I've been told at least.

And yes, both of them should be far more difficult to grow, and generally be more fun and better designed as playables. Since they both kind of are meh in their interactions with their own kind, each other, and the rest of the roster.

[ocean sentinel]

They're basically environmental hazards

[hasty coyote]

Going bush croc as a juvie land deino is fun, especially in populated areas. Just run out, lunge, and drag it back to the larger deinos.

Nobody expects the bush croc

[golden coral]

It's not fair! :p

[ocean sentinel]

Honestly given the current state of the roster it would make sense to make Deino and Stego sort of rivals, since they are both blatantly out of place due to how far ahead they are in terms of power. Give Deino an in depth tug of war mechanic for animals larger than 4 tons, but then allow Stego to use its tail whack in deep water.

[hollow canyon]

Cause the rest of the roster is too weak to deal with it, only Deino and Utahs pose any threat, not to mention the former is also untouchable

cancel that - the former is literally untouchable to anything other than another Deino

it's the best Utah counter in the game while Stego is very much killable to those

[golden coral]

It's hilarious, but I think deino is better vs utahs than stego on land. Like, put them both on flat ground, and the utahs will struggle more with killing the deino than the stego most likely.

[hollow canyon]

Yesn't - Deino is better vs them as long as it doesn't dehydrate mid-fight

as long as its close enough to water to get a drink it doesn't care about Utahs

you can't bleed a Deino out, Utah kills it with damage before the bleed gets it

[tall bronze]

I still wish Deino's buck was a roll.

[ocean sentinel]

Make it crush Utahs and instantly kill them, someone's gotta put them in their place.

[tall bronze]

[hollow canyon]

Deino isn't doing anything to Utahs on land, it can't chase them down, it's just that the Utahs can't really kill it either

[golden coral]

Just let the stego swipe omnis off itself and there we go!

[hollow canyon]

I mean you can kill them if they're dumb enough to try to fight you

I've wiped an entire Utah pack at one point with Deino because they were dead set on killing me

[tall bronze]

Acting like I'm walking away and having them try to run up only for me to 180 them is so fun 😛

[hollow canyon]

also - I haven't played this game in months but Deino players are still as bad as I remember them being

[golden coral]

And true, neither deino nor stego catch anything on land. Unless it's either not paying attention, or being third-partied.

[hollow canyon]

literally the first pair that I've ran into, the big guy attacked me out of nowhere and they both got yeeted without even taking half of my hp

[ocean sentinel]

Yes but unkillable damage sponges that oneshot you but can easily be outrun aren't exactly interesting for gameplay now are they.

[tall bronze]

That's what happens when growth is painfully easy ;-;

Bad players gain access to the big guys

[hollow canyon]

it's not even about that

people are just really bad at fighting with this animal

maybe they're good at ambushing stuff

[ocean sentinel]

Its because they don't have a reason to

[hollow canyon]

for all I know they might be much better than me at that

but most deino players just don't know how to fight

[ocean sentinel]

You aren't encouraged to fight anything as Deino

[hollow canyon]

the best they can do is spam alt bite and pray their opponent's hp runs out before their own does

[hollow canyon]

you are - other Deinos since they are a part of your diet

[golden coral]

Not really no, at least not unless they have their own "tier" of things to deal with. I still think stego should be removed for now so it can be reworked (since AI playable does not make for good actual playable), and just downsize deino to 4T if it's to keep current lunge. It'll still grab anything else in the roster, but now it's at least slightly more killable perhaps.

[tall bronze]

Hnng D.rugosus ;-;

[hollow canyon]

Stego too in a way since that's also a part of your diet although you have fish as an alternative

[ocean sentinel]

You pick off the juvis or you gang up on a lone adult and spam ALT bite. Nobody goes around dueling as Deino.

[hollow canyon]

I do

[ocean sentinel]

There is simple not enough of a need for combative skill as Deino, your answer to almost everything is right clicking or swimming away.

[hollow canyon]

there clearly is

as in - there isn't much but people clearly can't do even very little that is required of a player playing this animal

I notice whether the Deino I'm fighting is any good or not almost immediately based on what they're doing

this one was I think just mashing lmb hoping for the best, not even alt biting so getting the first hit amounted to nothing

I've fought some that were alt biting only too and these guys die too pretty much all the time

[golden coral]

I think it's fine that deinos don't fight, but rather just hunt. As long as it's somehow understood by the playerbase that this means that if it's out of your effective hunting range, you just ignore it, and don't try to get it anyway. Deino is an excellent hunter, it doesn't need to be a good fighter too.

[hollow canyon]

it is a pretty good fighter if you how to control it

the funny thing about this animal is that you get results even if you just spam the alt bite so most people don't really actually practice with it and just hope for the best

try doing that with any other animal and you just die

well i guess except Stego

[ocean sentinel]

The problem with that is it it makes every encounter straight forward and basically braindead. You either right click it or avoid it, which is always going to be a low skill playstyle.

If you want Deino to be more difficult, it needs to get into fights more

[tall bronze]

Apparently Deino is also missing some stuff (same with Pteranodon), so whatever that stuff may be may help it be more erm....interesting and not so simple.

Basking may be one of those things. I mean I know that isn't really a combat thing, but still worth mentioning 😛

[golden coral]

That's more to do with how the lunge works I'd say, not neccesarily the hunt over fight style. Besides, aside from teno, not like any of the other playables require much, despite being more suited to fighting over hunting. And difficulty does not have to relate to fighting, you can make growing and sustaining one difficult in other ways I'm pretty sure.

[golden coral]

Basking for nutrient! Would be interesting I think.

[ocean sentinel]

Combat is without a doubt the easiest way to add challenge to a playable, as there are already a lot of mechanics in place for it and it puts you against other players.

And if you were to make it so the challenge came entirely from managing different meters, then it would mean that fights between Deinos would be mostly decided before they even start, since who managed their Deino better would be at the most advantage.

[golden coral]

It might be easy, but I'm not sure it's good. Especially considering we need more PvE stuff anyway, and it's supposed to be survival, over fighting. So playables being geared towards hunting proper, rather than fighting, might be a good thing. You can be up against others players in other ways at that most likely as well so.

And well, being able to keep your diet up or whatever, and get your bonuses should make a difference I suppose, otherwise why bother. Sure, it should not deciede everything, but with equal skill/smarts, it might?

[ocean sentinel]

I'm not saying Deino should become a dedicated brawler, it should keep its ambush predator playstyle for the most part. However if they could put a bit of combat into that, it could work really well.

[golden coral]

But that could be part of it too, more knowledge of how to survive and thrive in general, and how to measure when to fight and when to back away, and all that.

[tall bronze]

I still yearn for a defensive charged bite for it. ;o;

[golden coral]

No no, I'm pretty sure we're both just talking in general terms right now. And I'm not opposed to deino, or stego, being better designed for combat (since they both kind of don't do it well at all right now), but more so that I think it's good that deino is such a great hunter, solitary one at that.

But I think that comes down mostly to giving them more attacks, and more mobility, fat as they are. Since at least that seems to be what makes good combat, the ability to actually readjust and try and change things around during the engagement.

[ocean sentinel]

I'd like to see a tug of war mechanic for Deino against targets above 4 tons thats designed in a way where both sides actually compete with each other rather than just watching some meters go down until one loses, and I'd like for it to be harder or more costly for Deino to just run back into the water and instead have to defend itself on land at least long enough to walk back into the water.

I think a temperature management mechanic could help make Deino more defensive on land. At the right temperature range you get good stamina regen, but if your too hot or cold it becomes lack luster. So you'll have to spend some time out in the open on land in the sun to heat up, which would put you at risk of being attacked, and the more time you spend in the water the more you cool off. Since you wouldn't be able to heat up during the night, you'd need to spend as much time basking in the day as you can, which would penalize you for ditching dry land frequently.

This would make Deino entirely focused on ambushing during the night, but mostly defensive during the day with a little bit of ambushing every now and then.

[dusky surge]

you can also do that against stegos, shocker

[tall bronze]

Doesn't mean they should exist currently At least Deinos are somewhat water locked 😛

[keen plover]

If stegos shouldn't exist, deinos shouldn't either. You leave deino in and 70% of the server will be deinos. They're already heavily populated rn, imagine when they have no threats

[tall bronze]

I'd say Deinos being everywhere is more of a mix of growth being painfully easy and Deinos having no semi-aquatic predators. Though I'd be okay with Deino being put on the backburner if something took it's place Beip

Or make it D.rugosus like originally planned heehee

[azure crescent]

a deino vs stego 1v1 is a short fight

[hollow canyon]

Not necessarily and in reality it wouldn't have to be a short fight either. Deinosuchus isn't a T.rex to just pulverize the thing it is biting

[azure crescent]

i mean currently in game

[hollow canyon]

as I said - it isn't necessarily a short fight

unless both sides go full out without backing off

which isn't necessarily a smart thing to do

[azure crescent]

which is typically the case

[hollow canyon]

especially for Deino

yea that's also part of the reason why Deinos typically lose

[azure crescent]

a smart stego knows to avoid smarter deinos, because those are still a big threat

[azure crescent]

yeah, a short fight

[hollow canyon]

if a Deino is good it can just attack, dish out damage, protect its head by keeping it low and dodging away from the Stego and then come back for a round two shortly after

it is possible to win an all out left/right-click fest but it's risky and depends on the situation

[azure crescent]

Yeah

The only situation where i can see it being a long fight is if the deino is trying to mentally exhaust the stego by repeatedly coming in and out

https://youtu.be/66kISY7m09o?t=151 here is an example of a good deino

positioning is a huge factor in this matchup

[ocean sentinel]

Deinos like that must be comically rare, I have never seen one do that.

[slim dragon]

Skilled people in The Isle are comically rare in The Isle

[ocean sentinel]

Though to be fair I could maybe count the times I fought Stegos as a Deino with other Deinos with my fingers, so not much opportunity for observation.

Honestly its impressive how they can make a fight that basically involves two people spamming their one move of choice have a kind of depth to it.

[slim dragon]

Everything can involve skill when everyone involved is dedicated enough
Remember there are beyblade masters out there

[ocean sentinel]

Combative dinosaurs games tend to get made fun of for their lack of depth, but I guess your right about people being able to find depth in basically everything.

[slim dragon]

On the other hand, Isle combat DOES have much more depth than any other dinosaur survival game (and most survival games overall)

[hollow canyon]

It really isn't that hard if you understand how both animals work, there's actually quite a bit more depth to both Stego and Deino than it might seem at first

[primal harbor]

@wraith relic it should be faster than stego, that is all carno has against stego, even with a broken leg

[hasty coyote]

I have been a carno with a broken leg running from a stego, you run at about the same speed and have roughly similar stamina. Running to the forest generally works, or a bush if you have nowhere else to go. If the stego manages to catch up, try to make it hit your tail rather than your face.

Also, stego can't break your leg. So thats a mix-packing issue and shouldn't be accounted for in most balance scenarios since it shouldn't be happening.

If you make the changes you suggest, you run the risk of other unintended issues: nerf stego stam? utahs are stronger. Nerf stego speed? deinos are stronger. Nerf anything about bone break? pachies are much weaker.

[wraith relic]

I just really think stego should be slower so that “a light pace in the other direction is always a viable solution

Toxic stego mains need to be humbled

[lavish timber]

stego already feels pretty slow if you’re conserving stamina, walking anywhere takes ages. they just need a counter in the playable

[wraith relic]

It’s just that stego should be able to have an equal match against one of two allos yet it can hold it’s against a couple deinos which are supposed to be apexes

[thin mantle]

One or two allos would get demolished by stego, 4 is more likely, and deino is only an apex via size, it’s purpose in game doesn’t align with that distinction

[hasty coyote]

a good comparison would be cano being a mid tier. Yeah it is, but another mid-tier like allo or alberto just bullies it. They're both punch-down animals

[thin mantle]

And if your leg is broken not many courtesies should be afforded to you, I don’t care if stego is a slow apex, you should be in trouble because your femur is in 5 pieces

[thin mantle]

Good comparison, it’s the anti Utah

[wraith relic]

I mean it doesn’t change my stance on deino, in real life it most likely would be able to mostly hold it’s own against Rex even on land, it also should have just as powerful of a bite as Rex really, if Rex and deino keep their current bite strength even in water Rex could demolish it if the deino is in range

But it also probably shouldn’t be buffed until they add other apexes

[hasty coyote]

Thats the issue then. These dinos are not the same as their irl counterparts. Magy, teno, pachy, and many other things would just be unviable. Herrera and hypsi wouldn't be arboreal. etc etc

[wraith relic]

But in the hope trailer they showed deino and Rex literally having a standoff implying that they are somewhat equally matched

[stark knoll]

Cats and bears have standoffs

A scene from a trailer is not indicative of game balance

[ocean sentinel]

The problem I have with this is a solely punch down predator is something that is easy to mess up. You can end up with something that interacts with the rest of the roster by either curb stomping it or ignoring it. Funnily enough this seems to have happened with Deino, and even with introduction of other large semi-aquatics there's no way ones big enough to threaten it would be able to outswim Deino, so it can just look the other way and swim at full speed. Now you could fix this by forcing Deino to play defensively against other apexes, but that still requires it to be able to kill them.

[thin mantle]

The deino was 4 calling and the rex was 3 calling while the deino was in a river, hardly indicative of a rivalry

[thin mantle]

Even then, as Lunary said, the trailer isn’t indicative of balance

Especially when that trailer is about 3 years old

[hollow canyon]

Deino's bite was nowhere near as devastating as that of a T.rex - different dentition and higher biteforce of the T.rex made its bite more impressive than that of Deinosuchus.

Having said that - Deino would still maul a T.rex in the water if Rex was in the game right now, it wouldn't be even close unless the Deinosuchus player was really bad(which to be fair - most are).

[wraith relic]

oh god i think the entire server hates me now

[hollow canyon]

Nobody hates you

[wraith relic]

not literally

[hollow canyon]

It's just that you seem to sort of misunderstand what Deino's point is in the game

Also - Stego cannot hold its own against a couple of Deinos unless - again - those Deinos are bad

[wraith relic]

i mean i just think it should be powereful than the way it is right now

[hollow canyon]

2 Deinos maul a Stegosaurus without much issue unless Stego tugs its tail and runs for its life

Deino is probably the best animal in the game right now

I'm playing only Deino since I got back

I mean I guess Utah is equally broken but Deino is the best counter for it so

[wraith relic]

for me deino is like right inbetween an apex and that class under that's not quite mid teir

[hollow canyon]

Just for the record - Deino was supposed to be a mid tier initially

the old roadmap had it labeled as "medium carnivore"

that roadmap was done after the trailer showing it hissing at T.rex came out so

Deino is most likely not going to be an apex as in - an animal capable of going toe to toe with a Spinosaurus, Tyrannosaurus or Giganotosaurus

although the latter two will still get mauled in the water

unless idk the devs let them be amazing swimmers and allow them to have some AoE attacks and make them dive but that's unlikely

[wraith relic]

look no madder what deino should be able to beat stego on the waters edge

[hollow canyon]

Spino will most likely dumpster a Deino though

[hollow canyon]

it is able to do that

You just can't swim into a Stego and mash lmb hoping it dies before you do

you won't be winning if you do that

@rain bane Utah is incomparably easier to grow than Carno, it's one of the easiest animals to grow in the game. They aren't even close.

Also - yes it does make sense to grow herbivores. Tenontosaurus is stronger than Carnotaurus and Utahraptor while having shorter growth time than the former. Herbivores are also much easier to maintain when they're full adults.

Pachy's growth is hardly longer than Utah's. I don't play it but I went on to grow it once just to test how long it will take me without having any idea what its diet is and what the most efficient strat for growing it was - I've done it in 72 minutes or so and that's with a lot of running in circles while looking for my diets. Utah grows marginally faster than that assuming it plays it optimally.

Teno also doesn't have to travel the whole map, you need to look for a better way of growing it because update 5 made some changes that buffed Tenonto's growth quite a bit via changes to its nutrient spawns

[tall bronze]

For Teno, it says radish is found NW but I've found them down near the southern swamp.....

Spiro. 👏

[hollow canyon]

^ one of the ways to do it

[somber sphinx]

Only in spiro

[rain bane]

I lost many hours on the utah, and on the carno, and on the teno, and on the pachy. Yes, Utah grows faster, but when diet problems start, growth slows down a lot. Being small, it is not possible to catch an adult for the third diet, and meeting juvies is good luck. Carno for all three diets has bots and I've never had a problem maintaining a perfect diet on it. Also, carno quickly reaches a size in which it can compete with adult pachy and tenos (risky, but real, unlike utah).

[rain bane]

The fact that teno is “stronger than utah and carno” is negated by experienced players. All tenos have a delay in attacks, which are not so difficult to avoid. This is purely a skill, and right now the balance works well enough that just like predators can easily overpower herbivores, and vice versa. Herbivores have problems precisely in the fact that the growth itself is more complicated and longer than that of predators, due to the fact that herbivores from the very spawn are forced to look for three diets, and predators are given decent enough time not to care about it.

[golden coral]

Can't you still almost hit adult on omni/utah if you time your food intake and fill up just before you "overgrow"?

[winter iris]

@rain bane Utah’s growth is by far easier than carno’s (but really by far). So can’t really understand your complains

Additionally, it is quite easy to have a perfect diet as Utah, whilst basically impossible with carno

[winter iris]

From this comment it is quite clear that you haven’t played carno a lot actually

[rain bane]

Yes, specifically this exists, if you get enough in time. But this is a matter of luck. While Utah should be lucky to saturate all three diets, Carno is well positioned to sustain diets due to the presence of bots.

[winter iris]

Teno is stronger than Utah and also than carno, and that’s just a fact. Then experienced players may be better to play one or the other playable, but this doesn’t change the fact that teno is the strongest land playable apart from stego.
Your point on teno attacks is a bit laughable, considering how easy it is to dodge carno ram (which is also a lot less reliable than all teno attacks and more risky because it exposes your head and not you back, plus teno attacks are all stronger than carno ram). So if you die to carno as teno, you have simply been doing worst than the carno most of the times. With utahs it depends, but generally 1 teno vs 2 Utah is in favour of teno

[rain bane]

I do not know how <whilst basically impossible with carno>. All the carnos I have grown have grown the first time with all three diets (EU 2-5 official servers). While the Utahs were usually on two if not one diet.

[golden coral]

I can agree that utah might struggle a bit more than carno with maintaining the diets, but for growth specifically, I'd say utah can get to adult with max nutris easier than carno (yes, you do need to have the food available, but honestly, I don't see that being an issue 90% of the time, if you have food, you probably have enough to fill up that one last time before you "overgrow").

[winter iris]

I think honestly, you didn’t play as much carno as you claim. Unless you feed on ai after server restart the two lines are always empty for carno. Utah, on the other hand, has got more diet sources (and that’s a fact) and can easily fill up on other players, which is a more reliable way to get perfect diet than ai which is very limited after 1 hour the server restarted

[golden coral]

I don't think all teno attacks are stronger than a carno ram. Kick and tail (maybe? not sure what it does any more), but I don't think claws do as much damage. And yes, 1v1 I'd say teno has the advantage in general.

[rain bane]

I may have expressed myself incorrectly in my original post (English is not my native language), but I meant dieting as an adult too. Carno has a big advantage because of all three diets, Utah often doesn't. This is what is strange, because in my understanding, the stronger the dinosaur, the more difficult it must survive.

[golden coral]

On the other hand, you can bait a teno kick or slam, so there is that.

Also yes, maintaining all three diets on carno isn't that difficult, or at least it wasn't for me.

[winter iris]

This is just wrong. And this is a known issue of the diet system rn: in fact as carno having perfect diet is quite rare. If you struggle with diet as utah, then you’re playing that poorly because it is very easy to have a perfect diet

[rain bane]

If the carno approaches teno's back, then of course the teno will win. But carno bites do a lot of damage, and if you bypass and breed correctly, then there will not be a huge advantage in the direction of the teno. Now both of these dinosaurs are fairly well balanced In my opinion. If carno is a good player, he will win. Also with teno. Most teno players get divorced very easily, and then simply remain without stamina. Also, a lot of carno players just go under the tail.

[golden coral]

Eh, you mentioned growth which is what I specifically answered on. But no worries, I do agree that the stronger the critter, the more difficult it should be to survive. But carno do struggle with staying alive due to sheer food requirements, if not for nutris speficially. And considering the power of the utah/omni, its not unreasonable that it struggles as well. Power isn't only sheer stats after all.

[winter iris]

As Utah, baby carnos and baby stego provide S and Two lines, then boar and pachy provide the 3 dots. I don’t think there’s a playable for which perfect diet is easier than Utah tbh

[golden coral]

Teno vs carno is a decent matchup yes, not ideal most likely, but pretty good at least.

@winter irisConsidering that you can find deer and boar pretty easily, especially boar, and there's rarely a shortage of utahs or carnos, I'm not sure how it's that difficult to have all three nutris?

[rain bane]

I mentioned in my original post that Utah has a problem with luck. It is not always possible to find a small stego or a small carno, often already adults or subs are found, which are difficult (but not impossible) to overcome alone utah.

[winter iris]

But that is valid for all playables

[golden coral]

Finding small carnos shouldn't be much of an issue, smaller stegos might be rarer, simply due to the best choice for said small stego is to hide in a bush and never be seen :p

[rain bane]

Carno, in my opinion, has much less problems here. I've never had a problem finding bots if I know where they spawn (not only after a restart - but during normal game time).

[winter iris]

Plus, a single corpse can feed many utahs, whilst for carnos it doesn’t

[winter iris]

You haven’t played carno enough then. Carno, rn, is a lot more difficult to grow, sustain and play than Utah , by quite a lot

All aspects considered , Utah is probably the easiest playable atm

[rain bane]

Yep, I haven't played <100 hours> of carno, but I've grown it over 10 times, about the same amount as utah. But yes, I'm teno main. I agree that I haven't played a lot. But I wrote what I noticed for all these times.

[winter iris]

Teno for example requires a lot more skill than Utah, and probably more than carno to play it very good

[rain bane]

I don't usually have a problem killing when I'm a teno. But I also met good players who used attack delays at the teno to breed for blood or hits.

[errant plinth]

at this point i just assume anyone X'ing requests to balance utah and stego are utah and stego mains and their opinions dont matter, granted the devs have said they wont be nerfing stego cause i guess they dont want to buff it back up later? its called a text document with the values of the uncounterable apex tier stats as they are now, and its not really a good justification when they said they will be buffing deino later when apexes are in.

[ocean sentinel]

Well, I guess its just one less set of stats for them to worry about later?

[slim dragon]

Actually devs have said they're gonna buff stego later anyway
They consider balancing it an unnecessary headache right now

[ocean sentinel]

I know Stego might be getting a moving tail whack, but what else are these two likely to get?

[errant plinth]

theyre going to buff the stego from where it is now.

right then i guess in the future if you see a stego just drown yourself to rob them of their murderhobo joy

pretty sure the stego as it is in evrima now could easily take a rex maybe two.

[slim dragon]

A moving tail whack could already be quite a nice buff if stego has to fend off apexes

[ocean sentinel]

Makes me wonder what Deino's gonna get

[slim dragon]

A proper lunge mechanic, hopefully

[somber sphinx]

A skill based lunge mechanic I hope for

[slim dragon]

Deino also has the massive problem of being a 100% one-trick pony

Even utah has other options if it cannot pounce, but deino relies on lunge way too much, especially considering how hit-or-miss the mechanic currently is

[ocean sentinel]

Yeah the right click or run gameplay Deino has right now needs to be replaced.

[old hull]

why? its what it was designed to do , you are gonna grab and drown people and thats basically it

as cliche as it sounds if you dont enjoy the whole grabbing and drowing then the creature just is not for you

[neon willow]

Because there are more interesting ways to implement grab and drown mechanics beyond the one we currently have, particularly several that encourage players to think more critically, strategize, and plan

Though I wouldn't go so far as to call deino a one trick pony-- it's fairly decent in fights, assuming things decide to come to it, as it really can't chase or pursue anything

The other issue is deino on deino fights often come down to who attacks first-- actually this is true of all same species fights, and it's also kind of underwhelming. May as well give up if someone attacks you first atm, rather than trying to figure out how to get out of it.

For Utah/Utah and pachy/pachy matchups it's as simple as tweaking their abilities. Pounce/pin needs to have a counter, and pachy probably needs to be able to headbutt when fractured. Deino needs a little more thought to make deino/deino combat more interesting... Possibly larger rivers would help some with potential hiding spots

[old hull]

in that case yeah for sure , croc on croc fights reek of legacys terrible combat , even if you are the first one to bite the colision on deino is so bad you can barely tell what you are even hitting since both you and the enemy are just shoving your heads through the others body

[hollow canyon]

You are doing something really, really wrong with Utah if you end up running into issues after your diets kick in, when I play it I get to full adult after one meal without ever slowing down. Carno doesn't compete with Tenontos at all until its fully grown unless the Tenos are trash. Even a fully grown Carno gets dumpstered by a Teno that's any good at the game.

[hollow canyon]

No, it isn't, it's literally created by experienced players. If you put bad players on both sides Carno will win almost every time, it's a much easier animal to control than tenonto. Trash Carno beats trash Teno every time, experienced Teno beats any Carno pretty much all the time.

Also - the growth of Teno is NOT longer than that of Carno, it's shorter, if you're taking longer to grow a Teno than Carno then you're playing it wrong. Growth of Teno is absurdly simple if you know what you're doing, it's reliable and can be done pretty much every time. Carno relies on luck and RNG. I'd grow Teno over Carno any day of the week.

[hollow canyon]

I guess this explains it a little bit - idk why you're trying to rely on killing other players as a fresh spawn Utah - sure it can do that but why bother? Just kill AI and get to full adult by sitting in a bush, there's really hardly any skill or deep philosophy to growing a Utahraptor since Update 5 came out.

[somber sphinx]

@coral wind 150 I feel is a bit too much, if it was a full on charge then I could kinda agree but I would mostly make it either 120 on a Full on bonk and for alt attack 70-75 or whatever it had back in u4-4.5

[ocean sentinel]

Whats pachy's current damage numbers?

[somber sphinx]

I don’t know but a lot weaker than it was, it takes 6 alt attacks to kill a utah and 4-5 I think with a fun charged head but

Or it was 6 full charged head buts to kill an Omni

Either way it’s a bit too weak atm, it’s a glass canon without the canon sort of say

[thin mantle]

Give pachy a 150 vertical slam....

Do it

[somber sphinx]

Vertical slam?

[stark knoll]

Down slam?

[thin mantle]

Your coconut cracker

[somber sphinx]

Ooooo, me like

[thin mantle]

Makes it a finisher for smalls or similarly sized targets so it doesn't make pachy to competent against larger targets in the damage department

[stark knoll]

As long as it crunches troodons like the concept art I'm happy

[thin mantle]

That's the dream :D

[wraith relic]

Indeed

[somber sphinx]

I’d still prob give it a little dmg buff but a buff for the downwards slam or make it do dmg I love

[thin mantle]

I mostly just want ram and alt to be utility attacks with slam being the main damage dealer, ofc with alt having enough damage to deal with smaller targets alone

[somber sphinx]

Yeah but also it’s full charged head but feels like it should do a little more dmg than it currently does, i still kinda like the downward slam be the dmg dealer but a little buff wouldn’t hurt

[golden coral]

@fleet torrent The bleed was always lethal, the only thing that made it bad was a broken pounce. But then the pounce got fixed, but without any balancing to go with it. Also when someone does use terrain (and what does that say, that you have to do so or just die to the raptor? Does not sound very balanced at all really, nor fun) they get called out for being cowards or otherwise "abusing" stuff. On top of that, game balance takes precedence over how realistic it might be to lose this or that much blood or damage or whatever. The fact is that the playable is stupidly easy to play, has almost no risk to it, has massive output for said minimal risk and effort/skill, and grows very fast at that, so it's no real loss if you die (and then baby utahs can abuse the spawns at that). Also, what would be the difference between suggesting increasing blood pools, or nerf it's bleed, aside from the fact that the first affects everything else, while the latter only goes for omni/utahs matchups, which would be better and easier to balance.

[fleet torrent]

@errant plinth you dont have anything else to just call "main"? If you're not going to add, don't subtract.

[errant plinth]

im done pretending people that are fine with utah being able to body people with little effort arent the same utah mains that abuse juvie/fresh spawn pouncing to keep bleed up.

it should get a nerf to its bleed, not to update 4 levels where it was only useful against other utahs and juvie animals, but less ridiculous than where it is now.

and bring missed pounce recovery slower so it can actually be punished, maybe even back to where it was in update 4 or at least similar to it.

high bleed is good for a utah but when literally everyone plays utah there is a problem, just like when everyone played carno and why people still play stego when theyve had a bad day and wanna make it everyone elses problem

[hollow canyon]

Update 4 levels were the same as the current ones just fyi

Utah received a truck-load of buffs over the last year

increased bleed wasn't one of them

because its bleed has been broken for ages now

the only reason why Utah wasn't as oppressive as it is now is because its pounce was broken and worked like a dino version of Russian roulette

[errant plinth]

well something is clearly screwy if everyone is playing utah

[hollow canyon]

sometimes you lived and sometimes you didn't

yea because Utah is absurdly overpowered

to the point that it's not even funny

the people that claim otherwise don't comprehend how the game works, they either don't utilise Utah properly or they're abusing copium to a level where it might be a health hazard

the amount of things that pounce does is just absurd, it applies an enormous bleed, to counter it you have to buck which makes you unable to attack and causes you to lose stamina, pounce itself also drains your stamina even if you're not bucking

this coupled with Utah's maneuverability, lack of punishment for missing the nuclear warhead it has attached to its rmb and the ease of growth

all just make it an absurdly strong playable

[fleet torrent]

I prefer to you come and talk instead of acting sped calling main out of nowhere, even being stupid bc i cleared im not utah main.

Lets start there we are also talking about utah adult, the juvis abusing are a thing appart from those feedbacks, its something that may be take in count i agree. Its stupid jubis abusing pounces.

It should not get nerf bleed, nor buff. Its okay as how it is, it's a bleeder. (In my opinion<<< I dont say this must be like this)

Missed pounce recovery it's just helped with the ping delays, you can just still attacking utahs because they are delayed, or you. Idk, whoever has the worst ping will have the advantage/disadvantage. You know. False hits.

Probably they play utah because now it's fun to go as it, iknew lot of people in up4 were playing carno bc utah was garb, very bad to use. iirc)))

[hollow canyon]

no, missed pounced recovery didn't "help with ping delays" it helped Utahs to avoid getting hit after they missed their borderline auto-aimed ability that has to be pressed in the general direction of their opponent

People play Utah because it's absurdly strong and it's by far the best terrestrial carnivore

it's also the best animal in the game if you consider the power of the animal relatively to its ease of growth

Also - you might complain about him calling you a Utah main but it's not like you're engaging with any arguments that are brought forth anyways so

[errant plinth]

not to mention the carno what is currently supposed to be only balance to it can get killed by 2 pounces and the utahs only defense of that is "lol stop moving then" when thats just going to get you pounced again or bit to death, and the notrious "just use a tree" sometimes a tree isnt close enough and you shouldnt have to abuse collision boxes to dislodge utahs, i actually think smacking a pouncing utah off of you with a tree at full tilt as a carno should deal damage and depending on speed maybe even bone break honestly if thats supposed to be the solution, cause it sure isnt bucking for over half your stamina while a megapack is on your arse to dislodge a single raptor regardless of if theyre an adult or a fresh spawn.

[fleet torrent]

Look, I'm from Arg, SA. I guess, it's called like that in your region.
Here the truth is that the ping differences help or not, many times when I had to kill an utah that failed a pounce I was able to do it correctly without problems, another thing to keep in mind that we are not naming is that it was an agile animal, it was not something slow, heavy as not to recover quickly.
I will not talk more about the people who play it since I do not know their intentions or reasons for using it, I speak for myself and it is a fun animal that imposes quite a lot of fear when used. As it should have always been, not a simple utah. Something that is scary, that you know that messing with them can carry a great responsibility that can be losing the dino.
Your m2 is not self-assisted. It is improved, which are different things. The only thing I will say is that it is wrong to do M2 to the head, and appear on the opponent's torso. That is the only point that I agree with the user feedback, since it is unfair and has happened to me too many times.

[fleet torrent]

And what are the args here? The typical that talks about "x" can't counter a pounce, can't accept the utah it's agile, can't accept to lose the dino?
Yall here want the things so easy and are not taking in mind some things that are a bit more important

[fleet torrent]

I just mean, as how i said yall here are complaining a lot. A LOT. Of carnivores, started with carno and now continues with utah, Yall don't find a damn middle ground of satisfaction, man

Everything it's a problem around the carnivores, that the bite speed it's too much, that the bite deals too much damage/bleed, that the dinosaur can not stand still to give a free hit after a miss attack...

[hollow canyon]

The arguments here are that the pounce is a completely overloaded ability which is also extremely easy to land - it's quite possibly the easiest special attack to land barring perhaps Pachy's ram attack.

It does decent damage, an absurd level of bleed, has hardly any drawbacks after the recovery was reduced(and honestly with how easy it is to land this thing you shouldn't be going into recovery anyways). It drains stamina by just pouncing the opponent, it also lowers the stamina regen via bleed and you need stamina to counter it. Trees aren't an argument, a good Utah will not let you hit it with a tree.

Carno was alright

atm it's a bit too weak, especially against Utah which it should be hunting

Utah on the other hand is not alright, it hasn't been alright probably since it came out

it's always been a problem child in this game

it goes from being a broken overpowered god-dino to a broken garbage not even worth playing, I guess it was closest to being balanced in update 2

Idk what you mean when you say that m2 is "improved" the thing basically lands as long as your model makes contact with the hitbox of the other animal allowing you to dodge attacks and teleport around, it's just an absurd ability. I have no idea why they buffed it like this instead of keeping it the way it was in update 1 where Utah was getting knocked down if it pounced the wrong body-part.

Utah simply has so many things going for itself that it's not even funny. All the things I've mentioned above are just about Utah's pounce and while that is bread and butter of this dino it also got a lot of freebies in other departments.

It has an abnormally high hunger time, it has amazing growth where it has to kill just one thing to get to full adult.

[keen plover]

Utah's only weakness is LOW HP, but all the other abilities let it avoid being hit MOST of the time.

[hollow canyon]

This dino is currently the FotM for a reason, people play it because it's just that good.

[fleet torrent]

"Trees aren't an argument, a good Utah will not let you hit it with a tree."
A good dino will not let the utah pounce it, would know how to counter the attacks.

Okay, remove the reduction of missed m2 for the utah, the randomly stamina draining when no bucking. That i think they dont make sense if you must need them to have a comfortable gameplay.
But still complaining about the bleeding? Really? I talked enough about it, it's not absurd. It's such a wrong argument, realistically it's so wrong. I doubt that this game is not designed to meet some real factors, otherwise the mechanics would not be some mechanics as they are.
I mean, for some reason it'll do the bleeding that it does. Whether there is difficulty in countering it, or whatever, is the player's problem. And if assistance is needed for such, it is better to ask for it than to try to cover it up with the typical "does a lot of bleeding damage"

[hollow canyon]

Idk about bringing realism into this discussion

Utah would literally go extinct with this roster

Utah and Tenonto would both go extinct if they had to coexist with Carno

not to mention our Utah isn't really similar to an actual Utah, it's just some made up animal based on JP raptors

[fleet torrent]

Stop talking about why people play it, you don't own the truth to guess or tell why what people do about choosing a playable, you can't know their intentions. Just when they confirm it you will do it.

[fleet torrent]

because it doesn't suit with what you're trying to discuss

[hollow canyon]

Yea I definitely don't know why I started playing it suddenly after update 5 came out despite the fact that I haven't touched it for months.

[hollow canyon]

No, I don't know about bring realism into this discussion because it really won't go in your favour

Realistically Utahraptor would be fodder

it would have even less health than it does now

or it would be much, much slower

pick your poison, irl Utah was a slow, bulky predator the size of a polar bear

the one in the game wouldn't weigh as much as it does ergo it would have less health

[dusky surge]

no one was playing it update 4 because it was a buggy mess, everyone was playing carno. Now that utah is fixed, the potential it had to be extremely powerful was realised without bugs holding it back, and with the nerfs to carnos and more buffs to itself, it's a monster without rival. The only true predator to a utah atm is a deino, which relies on the deino to be in the perfect place at the perfect time and perfectly land its attack

[hollow canyon]

the JP raptors weigh some 170kg

[fleet torrent]

You can talk and know what YOU do. Not what OTHERS do, if they have not told or confirmed at you their meanings.
Constantly the "all play it because its good" it's annoying. Just stop its just a free playable that anybody can choose

[hollow canyon]

Oh no, no, no it's not just bugs that were removed, this animal also got showered with buffs over the last few months

And yes - Deino stomps Utah

which is why it's probably the second best animal in the game atm

[dusky surge]

defending utah in its current state jeopardises diversity in the ecosystem and actively discourages a wider and more diverse animal roster

i LOVE playing utah but damn this thing is good

[hollow canyon]

Sure anyone can choose it and most people do, I wonder why

[dusky surge]

i wonder why, with this complete freedom of choice, the nerfed carno and pachy are getting dropped for the buffed and fixed utah

[fleet torrent]

What do you mean bulky pred?

[hollow canyon]

it was fat

not exactly "fat" but more or less

it had short legs, was very large, it was nowhere near as gracile as in the game

enormous head, it's nothing like the animal we have in the game

[dusky surge]

utah irl was a slow, larger predator. It was a big bruiser which brawled prey, not an agile pack hunter

[hollow canyon]

This is what irl Utahraptor would look like more or less

this thing isn't going to be running and jumping around the way the one in the game does

put this thing in the same ecosystem as Carno and it would go extinct very fast

the one in the game on the other hand would be lighter=had less hp than it does in the game

that thing wouldn't weigh 450kg

my bet is it would be somewhere in the 250-300kg ballpark

[hollow canyon]

also this ^

So yea, you don't want to bring realism into this, it's not going to go well for the Utah

[dusky surge]

utah irl was also the apex of its ecosystem, it wasn't built to face off against larger preds at all

[hollow canyon]

or any other animal for that matter, T.rex would just roll over the rest of the roster and the majority of playables would just get outcompeted and/or killed off by Tyrannosaurus if all those animals coexisted

[dusky surge]

true lmao

[hollow canyon]

some small carnivores could maybe survive

idk Velociraptor, Troodon etc

The rest just dies, including Utah, young T.rex would be faster, more agile and more powerful than it and it would just outcompete it

Now let me get back to my croc farm since there's no better feeling than slowly walking into a pack of Utahs as a big, fat croc just to eat whatever it was they hunted down knowing you're the one animal that is effectively immune to raptors

[dusky surge]

that is extremely amusing yes

[golden coral]

Unless you miss the pounce right next to the targets attack, you're liable to get out safely, with the lack of pounce recovery. Yes, you can still die, because every now and then, you land really badly, but you kind of have to try to get there. With how fast and agile the omni/utah is, you have very few, if any, excuses for missing your pounce in the first place. I honestly do not know how people keep missing, it's such as simple thing to do, just lead your pounce like you'd lead a bullet and you're set.

[hollow canyon]

Admittedly Utah being so good does indirectly buff Deino too since it has that good of a match up against it.

[golden coral]

Get yourself a few friends and hunt stegos on land too, while you're at it!

[golden coral]

You can't prevent a omni/utah from pouncing you, and aside from a full speed carno, you can't outrun or otherwise juke the pounce. There's no "counter" to the pounce because there's no requirement for the pounce that you can negate somehow. If, let's say, it only worked to pounce on the sides/flanks, and any other location resulted in being stunned or even knocked down, then you could counter a pounce by facing the omni, or similar. And that would then require the omni to either surprise you, or have a packmate to distract.

[dusky surge]

(not to mention deino got good buffs too with additional oxygen and faster oxygen regeneration)

[golden coral]

Well, the extra oxygen was needed, not much of an ambush hunter if you can't actually hide and wait properly.

[dusky surge]

yea true

[thin mantle]

Still an additional ball in deinos court nonetheless

[dusky surge]

honestly i'm unsure how to feel about the deino balance discussion. Personally, I think deino needs more aquatic competition and, more importantly, environment diversity. We need lakes, rivers, swamps, isolated ponds and weather to consistently change the landscape of aquatic environment and make certain animals prefer certain biomes. Ideally, with stuff like beipi and austro, we can have early warning signs of deino activity (they will migrate away from deino-active areas), shallows would have suchos and cherries as a consistent threat in them and animals like bary and spino would curb the population in the earlier stages

[thin mantle]

As far as I'm concerned deino is fundamentally imbalanced until it's lunge is addressed

[dusky surge]

i'd rather the ecosystem naturally responds to deino, with other aquatics allowing non-aquatics to go "deino population is probably low here because there's a good deal of beipis comfortable here"

[golden coral]

So, deliberately let the beipis live so they can be used as bait for better targets!

[dusky surge]

beipis would migrate to the areas with the least aquatic threat, which means players can use beipis as an early warning sign

panicking beipis might mean there's a threat you can't see

calm beipis probably mean the waters are clear

(for instance)

[thin mantle]

Considering the sheer number of water sources on the map that'd be impossible

Ideal but impossible

Plus that's a mixpack made in heaven

[hollow canyon]

good point, good point

[dusky surge]

with lunge, i do like the idea of a struggle tug-of-war lunge, but I still think some situations should literally just have deino pick you up and carry you into the water (if you're below 1/4 it's size, you should not be allowed to be fighting back). 1/4 to 1/2 should have a tug of war, but pretty deino favoured (but enough to drain its energy so that you may have a chance of escape). You could even allow it to lunge stego-sized opponents, but with a great deal of risk due to its heavy weight and struggle to pull it in

[thin mantle]

I wouldn't have any problem with how lunge functioned if water clarity wasn't crude oil levels of opaque, ambient life or other players shouldn't be relied upon to inform you when it's safe to drink....and I'm no fan of roulette mechanics in a game that demands this much time from the player with no saved progress between fail states....

[dusky surge]

True as

Honestly, they could absolutely run with weather and make it that heavy storms cloud and dirty the water like irl

Some water sources can be consistently dirtied/obscured

Some are usually clear but become dirty when weather dirties it

[thin mantle]

Tbh this level of water clarity we have in game is total bs and shouldn't exist anywhere

No creature should necessitate the level of luck it takes to survive drinking, even if it's uncommon, player deaths should be as avoidable as possible in games like these

Plus even as a deino, I really dislike how entirely onesided the engagement is....I don't have to go deep to stay out of sight before bursting upwards as fast as possible to grab the target because they might see me if I'm too shallow....I just need to remain mere inches below the waters surface and wait for them to start drinking, then press lmb

[ocean sentinel]

If they made the water more transparent, most of the rivers are probably too shallow all the way across for a Deino to properly conceal itself. This could definitely be fixed by making the rivers deeper, as well as larger so you can also have a shallower part the Deino has to pass through to give a short warning to anyone who's drinking.

[thin mantle]

Well....then there's this.....if deino can't lunge from literally every shore on the map it's basically a scavenger

So there's no good way to really design the map around it's mechanic aside from making it the most oppressive creature in the game

[ocean sentinel]

True, the mechanic itself is the problem.

[thin mantle]

||It's one of the many reasons I simply wish deino was never added or significantly smaller than it is now to at least reduce the amount of playables it can delete from existence but yknow||

[ocean sentinel]

Maybe animals below a certain weight could be given a sort of dodge they can use while drinking to avoid a Deino last second, while ones above get a tug of war mechanic?

[thin mantle]

Tug of war is just buck but worse tbh

[ocean sentinel]

Depends on how its done. Maybe they can attack with any body parts that aren't grab by the Deino.

[thin mantle]

Well then it's just the current stego deino facetank relationship only the deino can't attack

Plus at a certain size retaliation is irrelevant because you're so much larger

Once you're in the water you're done

[ocean sentinel]

Which is what the dodge is for, if a playable is too small to retaliate against a Deino in a tug of war scenario, then they can maybe press space bar while drinking to jump out of range and escape.

Also the tug of war fight doesn't necessarily have to end in the water either, could have it where the victim can still attack, and Deino is still losing stamina, just at a slower rate to reward them for getting their prey into the water.

[thin mantle]

Anything short of a stegos dps is getting annihilated, so everything smaller than a stego would need a dodge

[vale tangle]

its lunge will be effective on literally only like 5 things when the game is fully released without straight 1 shotting it

[thin mantle]

How do you come to that conclusion? Anything 4 tons or lighter is capable of being 1 shotted with no counter play, that’s way more than 5

Here’s everything that’s just not allowed to drink

[vale tangle]

Weird cause people are drinking just fine right now
the problem is deino is the only semi aquatic animal currently in game and has to deal with nothing bothering it other than other deinos

[thin mantle]

That's because there are safe places to drink on the map, rendering lunge a completely irrelevant mechanic with no purpose when it's evasion is possible, if those safe places didn't exist it'd be the opposite problem

Lunge is not a nuanced ability, the entire map caters to it and it works far too effectively, but if not it doesn't

[vale tangle]

Yeah if a deino is actually there, there are a lot of unpopular drinking spots on the map that deinos never go to that they could
Plus tenos get out of 90% of deino grabs cause they can outstam them
so just make a system where you have to actively try to break out of the jaws of the deino so that it isnt just an instant kill like with everything that isnt a teno

[thin mantle]

Or just make it so water map wide isn't as opaque as milk

fixes so many issues

[golden coral]

If you have full stam as adult deino, then I'm pretty sure a teno will die, no matter if it has full stam or not. Sure, if you're at 80% or so yourself, you might have to let it go before it's drowned, but it's still not very likely that it'll get away if you've retreated sufficiently into the deeper parts. But it would make sense that the "semiaquatic" playable we have is slightly less likely to die to a deino than the rest, it doesn't fix the rest of the issues with deino.

[keen plover]

there's a lot more, but they're tiny lol

utah and pachy not on the list, but galli is

[thin mantle]

Yeah I typically shy away from things that just get bitten and oneshot

They just muddy the discussion

[keen plover]

True, that's the vast majority of the playable list, not to mention any of the bigger creatures during growth

I do wonder if they'll give the larger creatures like maia, allo and alberto longer water times

Since they'll probs be like 3 hours and still be one shot

[thin mantle]

Hopefully deino just gets downsized or the map stops getting designed around it

[winter iris]

@tight cove @fleet torrent your points on Utah are, honestly, ridiculous. I mainly play Utah, and also carno, and Utah is by far the easiest and (relative to it’s ease of growth) strongest playable atm. Additionally, it is too easy to kill everything (except deino and adult stego) as Utah right now. Pounce is basically an aimbot with no skill required and can be spammed with basically no risk of being punished. The excuse of “use of environment to your advantage” is just BS tbh, because the only thing that environment does is stop the pounce without any damage to Utah or any stun. Right now if you keep on fighting after a pounce, not even running you’ll bleed out almost certainly because not moving implies other pounces or being bit to death (considering that pounce works as teleporting, you can easily arrive to the same conclusion).
I used to have fun fighting carnos as Utah, now it’s not fun anymore because it is too easy. Tenos are a bit more difficult but a decent 6-7 utahs pack can relatively easily take down 2 tenos.
@fleet torrent , I also think you have a wrong idea of what Utah was irl (just to mention one thing, it wasn’t able to jump)
@tight cove , I watched your video in which to try to demonstrate that Utah isn’t op, and you almost died to one of the worst Utah packs I have ever seen and saved your Dino because you were lucky. An average Utah pack would have killed you quite easily
To summarise, Utah is OP because of how it currently interacts with other playables, the idea you have of what Utah should be is not relevant at all.

[tight cove]

When you say that “the only thing that the environment does is stop the pounce without any damage to the Utah or any stun” this is simply not true because if you knock a Utah off of you using a tree it does indeed stun the Utah and deals a tiny bit of damage. Also in that video I wasn’t a full grown carno in that first clip, what I’m saying is that a smart player that plays to there advantages can fight utahs without dying like I have done many times. Also please suggest what you would do to make Utah not “op”in your eyes because I hope you haven’t forgotten how bad of a playable Utah used to be. Utah vs pachy 1v1 is fair for the most part, a Utah can bleed out a pachy but at the same time a pachy can kill the Utah, carno always has the option to pick and choose there fights since there the fastest Dino, and a good teno can fight utahs if it plays smart, 1 tail slam and kick combo and the Utah is dead so please explain.

[analog mirage]

Only reason Utah is good rn is cause Carnos blood while standing and walking got nerfed making it easier to kill, and the pounce recovery got buffed which was unnecessary

[tight cove]

For even better PROOF of this look at the video that I made last month when I was a lone carno and I fought a whole Utah pack and survived. I am not just saying stuff knowing that it can’t be done.

[keen plover]

-Universal knockdown timers were shortened, so the window for when a pachy can beat a utah up is shorter.

• Nerf to pachy charge damage, charge 5 shots a utah.
• Buff to utah bite, it now 8 shots a pachy via bites. Down from the previous 10.
• Utah miss pounce recovery was shortened. Smaller window for a pachy to actually hit a utah that misses.

I personally don't think utah should be brawling a pachy, but these changes made it that way. I wouldn't call it "fair" for the pachy

Pachy should honestly just curb stomp utahs that don't even attempt to ambush them

Utahs should avoid all hits, yet can currently tank a few and still fight. Even if the pachy wins, which likely happens. You're left really hurt and weak to the next creature

I don't think utah needs a lot of nerfs, stat wise. Just an increase to the missed pounce recovery and maybe actually aiming their pounces rather than impact pouncing like right now

I'd revert carno and buff pachy charge damage

[tight cove]

Yeah I agree with that, I’d be ok if the downward slam used for coconuts got a increase to damage but not the regular ram because that lead to pachys just straight brawling with carnos and killing them.

[keen plover]

I mean, 2 pachys still slaughter carnos. Stuns make it that way. You can also just bite them to add additional damage, so pachy charge goes from 100 damage, to 130n. But fair on that point. A downward slam would probs work best

You could also solo 'hunt' carnos if you get the leg break early

[tight cove]

Yeah even now 2 good pachys can kill a carno if you get a leg break early

But it used to be way worse that’s why the nerfed it

[keen plover]

Thing is, if you nerf it for one matchup, it also changes the other ones.

So yeah, they can't kill carnos as quickly now - but now utahs have an easier time fighting you

The update 4.5 damage was fine

[tight cove]

I’ve seen other ppl suggest an increased miss pounced recovery but I have noticed that when I’m fighting utahs I’m still able to hit them after a missed pounced so idk. Also honestly with how absolutely broken and busted pounce has been for the longest time I really don’t want them messing with it anymore because they finally have it working consistently well and can be used for the baseline for all future grapple abilities so I don’t want it changed so it can be broken again. 💀

[tight cove]

True, this is why next patch they should just increase downward slam damage and now the problem will be solved. Pachy can fight small teirs really well but things larger than it’s knockdown range it should just try to fracture then run.

I have also suggested multiple times that leg fractures should only be able to get healed while resting. This would really help pachy without directly buffing it

[hollow canyon]

I think he said he's already seen that video and stated:

" I watched your video in which to try to demonstrate that Utah isn’t op, and you almost died to one of the worst Utah packs I have ever seen and saved your Dino because you were lucky. An average Utah pack would have killed you quite easily"

Now I haven't seen the video and I know it's possible to kill Utahs with a Carno, I've done it myself after U5 even though I barely touched Carno, the point is that it kind of requires Utahs to be really really bad.

[tight cove]

Oh I thought he was talking about another video because I have a video titled utah isn’t op lol

[hollow canyon]

Idk which one you guys are talking about tbh

I haven't seen either

[tight cove]

Ah

[hollow canyon]

A video is circumstantial evidence anyways so unless the claim is that it's completely impossible to kill one animal with another(like the people that say that Deinos lose vs Stego 4v1 or whatever other absurd thing) posting a video isn't necessarily going to change anyone's mind.

I remember Scope's video where he and another Carno survive an encounter with a Utah pack just by sheer luck.

I wouldn't consider that as evidence of Utah being balanced either.