balance-feedback-discussion

[alpine plover]

For sure 🙂

[glacial kraken]

tbf, wanna go on a server and test it out?

@alpine plover

[alpine plover]

Maybe you re right, you do find that hard to believe, i also do, alot of cheaters nowadays and obviously no punishment or way to report

[azure crescent]

more like 180 and 300 respectively

[dusky surge]

he was right the first time, those values are just wrong

[azure crescent]

oh alr

i recall seeing that kick did 300 before

[dusky surge]

never has

[azure crescent]

huh

alr

[dusky surge]

@tawdry leaf Deino has more health, higher bleed resist and takes less damage to the head. It's also capable of killing animals up to 4 tons in a single attack with its lunge, whereas stego can't one-tap anything 2 tons or higher.

[tawdry leaf]

Maybe ur right, but in actual gameplay it feels otherwise, i played most likely as carno, and i dont know if its my problem or problem with my game, but carno feels weaker than actual it should be, im just lost 2 hours of my life bcs of stego, and im sure that if i will ask average croc or carno player what devs should buff or nerf, it 70% will be stego nerf, it becomes a local meme that stego stronger than deino, now im played as adult deino only 2 time, and always of this 12 hour experience i lost fight to stego, i don't know what is exactly a problem, hitboxes or internet, deino or stego, but i think it will better to firstly improve balance is some kind way.

[dusky surge]

carno is a small game hunter, it's literally not at all designed to hunt stego

deino is an aquatic creature that specialises also in hunting much smaller animals, facing off against a land apex like stego rather than swimming away is asking for trouble

[errant plinth]

they wont nerf stego because its supposed to be an apex, never mind they could just give its stats back when proper counters to it are added, really i do think that it should be disabled and kentro given priority to be added to replace its niche of the dangerous herbivore that needs pack hunting to take down.

[tawdry leaf]

Ye u right, but since we dont have a REALLY big land dino who can kill bigger dinos than teno, some ppl will think that 2 or 3 carnos can kill stego, and there will be next possible outcomes: 60% of their failure due stegos hp and how they can be killed, 40% of their success due bleeding or other things, most ppl like myself do believe that carno COULD kill stego irl, but hitboxes, bite resistance, and stamina it can be mistaken in the game.

Lets be honest, people take utahs bcs of their stamina and speed, most people pick carno bcs of their bite force, speed force and its literally the only big land carnivore that can really can be a pain to kill it or run from it, but even then good luck because if carno hungry, no person would sacrifice their 2 hours of live due most stupid way to go down, and the most common reason why people take stegos is play as walking tank that every one fears, and how big damage they can do compare to other LAND creatures.

[slim dragon]

Omni is currently the best animal in the game when it comes to killing stego
Although it shouldn't really, but I assume stego won't get buffed until a proper predator for it is implemented

[alpine plover]

i usually refer to this when i see a stego

[tawdry leaf]

Yes, until we got new carnivore apex in evrima, like giga or rex, but untill then we cant do anything, we need to enjoy what we got

[tawdry leaf]

True

[errant plinth]

when an honest to god spreadsheet and a hyper specific scenario that is still going to result in catastrophic losses is needed to beat an animal maybe its too early for it to be in the game and it should be replaced with something similar but more manageable for the roster.

[alpine plover]

lmao yeah id agree with that, but if the only good option is to temporarily remove it, i'd rather they just left it the way it is right now

roster is small enough as is

[golden coral]

Now apply that spreadsheet to deino and see where the difference is. How people can still believe that stego is somehow the better choice between it and deino is so very strange.

[errant plinth]

i disagree i could suffer it being removed honestly

well disabled

you know what i mean

[golden coral]

It's fine to have an untouchable carnivore but not a herbivore clearly. On top that, the carnivore in question works more lika herbivore than not even.

[alpine plover]

there would be the issue of land deinos taking over lol

[slim dragon]

Eat grass and die

[errant plinth]

i mean theyre welcome to try but deino is a joke on land and theyre thirsty lads out of the water

[alpine plover]

yeah they can't do a whole lot but they can take any body they want, and it would just look so odd seeing fields of big crocs roaming about imo

[golden coral]

I honestly do not understand this. Everything they say about stego, is more so for deino. And if people want to use the whole "but deinos hunt each other", then sure, stegos also can and do kill each other. But somehow it's fine for deino to be unhuntable to carno, utah, and everything else bar stegos (assuming the deino doesn't just stay away that is), but stego being unhuntable to everything but deinos (yes, they can and do hunt them) is somehow a problem.

[frail bobcat]

It needs no nerfs, just a competitor (that is not deino)

[errant plinth]

better than stegos hunting people like theyre carnivores and there being no recourse what so ever

only way to really beat a stego is to tar pit it or kill it before it grows up

[slim dragon]

Stegos are joke as hunters

They're the same speed as deino but they also need to stop to attack

[frail bobcat]

If you get hunted down from a stego, ,you should probably reconsider a few life choices

[errant plinth]

yeah its still annoying for players though to deal with and if you get caught off guard you're just dead

[alpine plover]

i think the difference is that deinos are untouchable sure (except for stegs ofc) but they spend 90% of their time in the water, so they have less of an effect on the land ecosystem. Whereas stegos essentially are kings on land, which can be felt by every other dino in the game (bar ptera i guess lol)

and the body camping stuff also makes a lot of people despise stegos even more ofc

[errant plinth]

and well they also kill other herbivores as well just because they can, its a dino for power trippers without any counter really besides running away, and most of the time a stego will be the herbivore most likely to relentlessly corpse guard until a corpse despawns, most other herbivores will just leave once they think youve lost interest but most stegos are toxic enough to just wait until the body despawns, only leaving to lure people out/get food or water.

[hasty coyote]

Deinos only stay in water because they have to worry about a stego finding them and killing then. Without stegos, deinos just become the new stego, plus the ability to ambush from water and are nearly invincible to both raptors and carnos.

Also, deinos can just… drag away and eat the bodies instead of camping them. Which makes them 100x better at body camping than stegos.

[undone meteor]

i think deino is kept at bay only because of the prescence of stegos

[hasty coyote]

Yeah

[undone meteor]

and the speed

[alpine plover]

uhh i wouldn't really call it body camping, is that not just them surviving lmao

stegos have no use for a corpse

[undone meteor]

but i think stego and deino health pool its way too high specially deino

[hasty coyote]

It accomplishes the same goal. You don’t get to have the body anymore.
Plus, deinos can over eat without puking, so they can just delete corpses.

[dreamy fiber]

They're supposed to be high health pools. They're apexes.

[undone meteor]

i know

but its excesive in my opinion

its ok to have high health pool but not that much

[hasty coyote]

Their health is fine, we just don’t have anything that can deal with that health pool. It’s like telling coyotes to kill an elephant

[dreamy fiber]

It's not even that high. Deino is only like 5k which is only a little over two tenos

[hasty coyote]

Deino is 8k

[undone meteor]

deino health is 8k

[hasty coyote]

Drowns up to half its size, 4 tons

[dreamy fiber]

Oh is it? Still don't care thst much but thst makes more sense

Health has always been expontislly larger and the gap in evrima is less so than with legacy

[hasty coyote]

Plus, 2 tenos is 3200

[undone meteor]

a carno would need more than 40 hits to kill a deino

assuming deino is on land

[dreamy fiber]

2 tenos is 4400. Tenos are 2200 each

Carnos are 1600.

[hasty coyote]

They’re 1600, carnos are 1800

[alpine plover]

you don't get the body anymore yes, because the bigger dino wanted it to eat. Stegos sit on bodies, because they know they are virtually unkillable. Sure it has the same effect somewhat but that doesn't stop people hating stegos because they literally gain nothing from it

[hasty coyote]

Takes 18 hits to kill a carno as a pachy, and teno is smaller then carno

[undone meteor]

yeah but pachy can break the legs body and head of the carno making it weaker

[hasty coyote]

So, you only dislike that the people are being intentionally toxic. Rather than the actual action?

[hasty coyote]

I’m just saying how I remember their hp, not talking about the carno deino thing

[undone meteor]

oh ok sry

[alpine plover]

well yeah i dislike toxic stuff, but my original point was just tryna explain why people hate stegos more than deinos

[hasty coyote]

That’s caused by deino being an apex, and carno being the fastest thing in the game and specializes in fighting small prey, thus it’s balanced to fight targets smaller than itself. So carno is just a bad example when it comes to ratios

[ocean sentinel]

Both Deino and Stego are poorly balanced for the current roster, this discussion has been had hundreds of times over.

The Isle is supposedly meant to be a survival horror game, yet neither really have anything to fear but their own species, which honestly ends up being more annoying then anything

[hasty coyote]

Yep

Minmi will solve this issue, it should be added immediately

[undone meteor]

i think that it has way too much health for the current roster maybe they could lower deino health for now and make deino health 8 tons again when the roster is more complete

[undone meteor]

i agree

[alpine plover]

if deino health gets temporarily nerfed surely stego would need it too

would be more stegs than deinos in the river at that stage

[undone meteor]

yeah if deinos health gets nerfed also stegos health would be nerfed

[dreamy fiber]

Honestly I don't think about deino balance much since to me it feels more like an environmental hazard. It's not like the otherwise wholly terrestrial roster is even going to fight it unless it's moved itself a significant distance from water

Stegos on the whole aren't that bad. They can be taken out very reliably by utah packs

But official servers are chaotic and most utahs there aren't well equipped for that fight. They aren't patient, or don't even know when to jump on and when to jump off. It's harder to fight stegos there due to that more than the stego being absurdly strong. Carnos aren't really supposed to fight stegos.

And two deinos taking a stego ehh
It can happen but the stegos gotta be lame

so-- stegos don't really fit the roster, but they do fit their place in the wider scheme
and frankly I don't think they're that bad when you isolate them from the envrionment but :/thats a pretty ideal situation

[winter iris]

some things that need to be adjusted in the next updates in my opinion:

1. Increase utah's failed pounce recovery time (it's too low and pounce is currently spammed)

2. Increase utah's hunger to avoid megapacks

3. Remove the possibility to punce on opponents face and be teleported on the flank, it's just absolute non sense for something that should actually mean almost death (for the utah) when done against carno or other big carnivores

4. Remove the possibility to pounce from the back and be teleported on the flank, not only it's non sense again, but it should be a death sentence when pouncing stego. ATM it is an advantage for utah

5. Please adjust carno's bite hitbox: it is frustrating when in fights you deliver 90%+ of the bites and 10% of them actually work

6. Slighlty increase carno blood pool. It's true that a fight can be done now as well, but the blood pool is ridiculously low and gets drained also by juvies

7. I think the amount of stamina consumption to scroll off utahs during pounce should be decreased in general, but particularly should be close to zero when scrolling off juvies or baby utahs. Bleeding already causes stamina not to regenerate, but is also a barely punishable magnet, so the combination of everything is simply too much in favour of utahs against everything atm

8. Despite what many people say, I think that not only pounce should end when utah hits a tree during pounce, but the utah should also get stunned for a short while. This at least would ensure some skill required for the timing of pounce (currently utah is the playable that requires by far the lower amount of skill, whilst it's supposed to be one of the playables that requires the biggest amount of skill)

Particularly points 1 and 5 are really needed and should be included into the next update I think

oh I forgot one point:

9. it is non sense that juvie utahs cause that amount of bleeding to a fully grown creature. They are currently actively used in fights because they are good bleeders. That's just non sense

[vocal pivot]

erik explain why you put an x

bc everything i said is irl accurate

[golden coral]

@vocal pivot I don't think that A; stego (or any playable) is supposed to "get wiped" by another playable, at the very least not if they're in the similar size/"tier", and even if not, since we do want all playables to be viable and worth playing hopefully. And B; while yes, deino did have bitefore irl, this is a game, and deino in game has been given a mechanic that does not rely on biteforce, with both the advantages and limitations that come with it. Though yes, letting deinos grab heavier stuff that is swimming is reasonable and should be a thing (though it might require some balancing, or at least ways to avoid having to swim for those big targets that would otherwise just outright die, unless the grab and drown is changed). For the NV, this will get adjusted, right now all playables have the same NV range, but that's going to change (hopefully dryo for example get good NV among the herbis).

It is, but since this is a game, some of those arguments aren't really that good, because ingame balance, and mechanics take priority over irl (you're not the first that mentions deinos irl biteforce and all that, but in game biteforce is just a damage value, not related to anything irl).

[stark knoll]

I don't think having a higher BF than rex is accurate anymore, but I haven't heard much on it

Plus, it has 0 bearing on in-game damage

[vocal pivot]

i even said yes rn its not viable bc there is only so many dinos in the game

[golden coral]

I trust I did explain myself reasonably well. I disagree with your statement on how a matchup should go, and your biteforce argument. I agree on the increased grab range when something is swimming. And the NV thing is most likely going to change like that, I'm pretty sure a good few people agree that deino should have good NV.

[vocal pivot]

but this game is trying to be realistic and horror right. i hate to say it but deno aka an alligator is just strong and thats it. a dog isnt gonna last in the water or wilderbeast doesnt stand a chance

bc power

even hipos have respect for nile crocs

[stark knoll]

Realism is separate from accuracy

The Isle has never attempted to be truly accurate

[vocal pivot]

okay true but im not asking to change a major part of the game

[stark knoll]

Deino can currently one-shot things up to 4 tons. Depending on how you look at it, that means it's the highest damage attack in the game

[vocal pivot]

stego does way more

tail swing is like 4 to 5 shots a deno

it does like 1,000 dm

the gator had LITERAL bullet proof armor on its back the only way to kill a gator is behind the neck

how does a few spears with grantit some strong muscle power behind it

hurt it

[golden coral]

That's because you're counting raw damage vs mechanical "damage". As Lunary said, with the lunge, you can oneshot anything up to 4T, since you drown them. So you do technicall have way more killing potential than the stego. Also yeah, it has armor, but.. as you said, some decent sized spears with very powerful muscles behind them, I'd imagine that would hurt quite a bit.

[vocal pivot]

but that doesnt combat LITERAL bullets

lmao

yes it can 1 shot stuff up to 4 tons but thats how its supposed to be. like there is nothing you can do. gonna tell me a deer comes to the water or bull gets grabbed. thats it

thats game

[golden coral]

I don't know how well bullets would compare to be honest, but well, game I guess. Maybe deino would be way more hard to harm and kill irl, but that's not how it goes here, for obvious reasons.

And yes, that is how deino works, you get grabbed, you die. In return for that power, deino is weak to things that it can not grab.

[vocal pivot]

yes true on land your screwd

i agree 100%

[golden coral]

This does not only apply to land. If you're up against something you can not grab as deino, you're in for a bad time, because of your mechanics, you don't get to just bite and fight. Which is why even at the shore, you'd do better to stay away from other apexes (and stay away from spino and probably cheirus in water I'd imagine).

[vocal pivot]

stay away from other apexed???? deno is the apex of apex

i dont think you undestand how a alligator actually works

its like telling godzilla to not be godzilla and dont be strong

water is its home and kingdom

[arctic mantle]

i agree but at the same time deino has a stronger bite force than the rex irl i don't know if they will have it be this way in evrima and by the looks of things it looks like deino doesn't have that strong of a bite force. but i do agree with solis as well because bullets have a hard time going through fat and bone both which deino has in abundance and i dont think that a stegos tail would pierce as far as some of the strongest bullets we have today

[vocal pivot]

on land denos are not crap bc big slow and cant move that much

[golden coral]

Oh I do, but as I pointed out, this is a game. You're not going to get a realistic gator, any more than you'll get a realistic rex (if we did, then goodbye to most of the roster). Deino is an apex yes, but not an apex designed to fight other apexes. It's been said it will swim away from spino more likely than not. Deino in the game is designed to grab and drown things half it's weight or lower, not to bite and fight things bigger than itself. At least as it stands right now.

[vocal pivot]

but we are talkin about in water and by the edge

[vocal pivot]

i get its a game but you cant just chalk it up to its just a game bc games are based off irl

[arctic mantle]

unless hit in the head by the stegos tail which makes sense why deinos get 4 shot head shoted

[golden coral]

I don't think it will have that biteforce, because it does not need it. With the mechanic, your biteforce is kind of irrelevant. Or perhaps you should see the mechanic as your biteforce, seeing as it's the only playable able to just grab things like it does. And maybe stegos tail irl wouldn't, but again, this is a game. I'm pretty sure that most of the apexes will be able to just fight a deino, precisely because deino is designed to be a "mid tier hunter" as it stands right now. Not an "apex killer".

[golden coral]

Yes, but balance is not only based off irl, but also on well, how it works in the game. I'm telling you, currently our deino is not designed to fight stuff in a straight battle, it grabs and drowns stuff, and can do so up to 4T, which when we have a full roster, is probably most of the roster at adult size, and then the rest up to them outgrowing it at sub or young adult or whatever. That's a lot of prey items, for a solo hunter capable of killing whatever it can grab with a kill guarantee and no risk to it.

[vocal pivot]

yes thats what im saying it grabs and drowns THE ENTIER POINT OF MY CONVO is in water combate not on land

your just getting it mixed up

[vocal pivot]

also thats the point alligators and croc drown and grab almost LITERALLY EVERYTHING

[golden coral]

So what's the issue then? I did agree that letting deino grab things that are swimming at a higher weight limit would be fine, though it might require some kind of balancing and all, depending on how often and likely it is to just outright lose your playable like that.

But that's not the same as grabbing something at the shore that's standing there drinking.

And also has nothing to do with the biteforce argument anyway.

[arctic mantle]

yeah i actually like what they have for balanced right now other than for the fact of deino having to headshot a stego like 6-7 times because it makes it so stego players dont feel like the water is a threat when they cross and having it where the only other apex can barly do any damage to stego is a little sad

[vocal pivot]

facs

[golden coral]

Yes, but since this is a game, there's limits to what you can grab. Such as only things up to 4T. At least as it stands right now. But if you're fine with that, then what exactly are you complaining about?

[vocal pivot]

thats just not right stego is just way way overpowered rn

[unborn iris]

A single croc can definitely kill a stego trying to cross any decent river.

[vocal pivot]

not balanced at all

[golden coral]

This is because as I said, deino is not meant to fight other apexes. You'll be afraid of most of them, probably especially spino and maybe even cheirus.

[vocal pivot]

barely and if it decides to stay around the water

[golden coral]

So this means that anything too big to grab, is just.. not something you should go near.

[vocal pivot]

but it can get away

[unborn iris]

You can just body block them. They swim slow. You can kill them before they make it across.

[golden coral]

This is why you only cross at the shortest parts! :D

[vocal pivot]

things super heavy yes but 1 stego is just way to strong and bullys crocs which doesnt make since and in water also not how that works wheel

you can body block them yes

[golden coral]

I'd say you might as well get used to it, or do you think a rex or trike or shant isn't going to "bully" you? :p

[vocal pivot]

but that doesnt last long

[vocal pivot]

it shouldnt be water is its domain

[golden coral]

You do realize that stego is, together with acro, probably the weakest of the apex group. So, you're only going to have a worse time in the future when the rest of the big guys come along.

[arctic mantle]

but they have an amazing turn radius in the water so they can just move their head away from your mouth even if you body block them

[vocal pivot]

if its getting a drink from what your saying erik is it drinks for free besides getting bit few times

[golden coral]

Not as the deino is currently designed to work. As I said, a spino will probably kill you, so you're better off swimming away.

[vocal pivot]

it doesnt need to worry at all

[golden coral]

You're not meant to go up against a rex or something.

[vocal pivot]

deno out weights almost everything

so that doesnt make sense

[golden coral]

Weight is.. only one of the factors though?

[vocal pivot]

also facs

[golden coral]

Even if you upped it's weight to 12T or something, you'd still only grab 6T creatures with the current lunge. So you'd still not be hunting, or fighting, the rest of the big guys, and probably not even the stego if it gets powered up for the future.

[golden coral]

Correct, as an apex, deino is probably not going to be much of a threat, unless you're actively out there swimming. But as for drinking, no, you're better off ignoring the apex or getting it while it's still younger.

[vocal pivot]

i really dont think you understand the literaly muscle power of deno

[arctic mantle]

sorry i read it wrong i didnt see the kg i thought it was pounds

[golden coral]

I don't think you understand that it's a game and thus, irl comparisons aren't that useful.

Like I said, if we balanced this for reality, 90% of the roster would just.. die out. Do you have any idea how OP real life rex was?

[vocal pivot]

but somethings need to be realistic or its not fun to play and there goes a playable

[golden coral]

We can't balance for realism in that sense because we don't have an ecosystem based around that, we have an ecosystem like Jurassic Park, a bunch of different critters from different eras thrown together.

[arctic mantle]

max weight of a spino is 22 tons and deinos estimated max weight was 10 tons

[golden coral]

Yes, and your gator plays like one, in that sense it's realistic. It sits and waits for hours and then occassinoally jumps out to grab and drown something.

[vocal pivot]

like your argument is just chalking it up as its a game you can just chalk it as its a game when its just wrong

your ignoring it almost

[stark knoll]

22T is extremely outdated, and our spino is so far from the real thing that imo we shouldn't consider irl estimates at all

[mental roost]

...Did you get that weight from google?? Because both of those are wrong.. Not getting into the balance thing for right now, but ...yeah what Lunary said basically.

[vocal pivot]

talkin about later on in the game dude

[golden coral]

What do you want me to tell you then? I'm telling you, game wise, mechanic wise, deino works like this: You grab things half your weight or lower, and drown them. Anything heavier, especially something heavier that can also fight back really well, is not a target for you. You ignore them and hunt the things you're designed to do. Just like how carno hunts small game, how utahs hunt large and slow game, and so on.

[golden coral]

Yes, and later in the game, you're still a deino, working like I've just described.

[vocal pivot]

o yeah well raptor is not any where near the weight of stego and you expect them to kill stego ez for food

same thing for deno

[arctic mantle]

yeah i did get them from a quick google search because im tired and dont want to read through loads of articles like i did when i looked at like 30 something articles for deino on a bite force debate and only found like 2-3 that said deino had a smaller bite force than the rex and the rest said it had a bigger bite force some saying twice the amount some saying only by a little bit but most saying it had a bigger bite force

[golden coral]

No, I honestly would not expect the Omniraptor to hunt stegos at all, nor would they hunt anky. I would expect them to hunt trike, shant, maybe rex if any of the apexes, but most likely I'd imagine Omniraptor might end up hunting the midtiers, hadrosaurs and ceratopsids specifically, and then some of the slower theropods.

[mental roost]

Deino is mostly pretty much fine balance wise, ISH. Deino only needs a slight damage boost at most maybe, a few more things to do so that Deino vs Deino combat is actually more engaging, and for the elder mechanic to be applied so it can get larger. The rest falls onto map design, and some weird quirks with Stego's turning in the water supposedly, and maybe it having its headshot multiplier increased from 2 to 2.2 (which I'd be reluctant to do personally).

This is an animal that in its "nerfed state" already has 8000 health, 8 tons backing it up, 500 N of damage, bleed resistance that goes as far as 50%, the ability to choose its fights due to its unique aquatic niche/ability, and an ability that lets it one shot animals half its size or smaller. I'd maybe toss it a dragging mechanic as well for things that are slightly above the half weight margin so that when more animals are added to the roster it can hunt some of the hadrosaurs maybe.

Other then that, Deino'll probably be fine in the future, though it could definitely use some QOL improvements.

[vocal pivot]

but its in the game and thats how they want you to work?

[golden coral]

I'd agree wholeheartedly on the deino vs deino combat. Also apply that to stego vs stego. For damage, maybe but it depends. I'd say deino also suffers from some roster issues, or well, just a lack of roster really. There's plenty of prey for our current deino to be happy, if we had all the playables relly.

[vocal pivot]

right

[golden coral]

And Omnis do hunt stegos as it stands right now.

And if trike was in, they'd hunt it too :p

[vocal pivot]

like i said rn idc deno is in a weird spot but key word LATER IN THE GAME it needs to change

[golden coral]

I don't think it needs to change. Since deino is currently just fine. And it won't really struggle later in the game either as it stands.

[vocal pivot]

bro reaad i said later it needs to change not now

[golden coral]

At least I don't think it needs to change like you want it to, because it is a very solid hunter as it stands. It could do with some more water time, so it can migrate on land (as it should, go out and be vunerable).

[neon willow]

Deino does a ton more "damage" with it's mechanic. It can grab anything under 4T and drag it under the water to drown (and with the exception of the semi aquatic teno it basically always succeeds if it has a full stam bar and deep enough water).

That means, if it lands ONE "attack" it can technically kill anything with up to 4k HP in one "hit"-- way more damage than stego with 1000 damage per swing

[golden coral]

Yes but you want it to hunt apexes, while I'm sahing it does not need to hunt apexes to be a solid playable.

You're fine ignoring the total of 10 or so apexes, and have a good playable anyway. So to me it's not an issue of acro, stego, and the larger critters are off limits.

[vocal pivot]

do you even play deno bc its not a solid hunter if it stays the same later in game wise

[vocal pivot]

it is an apex apex hunts APEX thats how it is

[golden coral]

Yes, I've played deino quite a lot. And it is a solid hunter, in how it's mechanics and abilities work. Also it's probably the best solo hunter in the game (even later on).

[vocal pivot]

its in its weight class your not making any sense

[vocal pivot]

no stego one hits literally everything than deno in the head

[golden coral]

That's not at all how it is. Apexes do not need to hunt other apexes. Also I doubt every apex will hunt every other apex. Giga for example, or acro, does not hunt anky. While rex and spino does. And deino does not hunt other apexes, it hunts midtiers. Just like carno is a midtier that hunts small tier. Or utahs being a small tier that hunts larger tiers.

[vocal pivot]

stego does way more dm

[golden coral]

If you're talking raw damage, sure, but as we pointed out, the grab and drown is a valid attack too. And that one does way more than stego does. So you know, a stego still needs to hit the carno on head to one shot it, deino just grabs it and drowns it. And deino has way more potential to get a carno kill due to how it hunts, while a carno has to decide to mess with a stego to die to it.

[golden coral]

Being in the weight class does not equate to having the abilities to fight others of that weight class, much less effectively.

Look at Omni, it's very good at hunting larger, slower things, and should struggle vs things it's own size that are agile and can avoid the pounce. Same goes for carno, it's a midtier, but a very fragile one, that does not want to engage with anything that can fight back proper, but instead run down and kill the smaller stuff.

[neon willow]

Unfortunately not many of those on the existing map-- too many of the "rivers" are extremely shallow with frequent areas where dinos can wade across

[golden coral]

You can't just look at the weight, you have to look at the damage, and other mechanics and abilities to judge how a playable works and what it can and can not go up against.

[vocal pivot]

THAT being said machanicly deno should kill most things ez bc thats how it is in games and irl

[arctic mantle]

i actually cant wait for the drought system were waters will rise and sink it will be really cool

[golden coral]

Maybe you want it that way, but that's not how it works, or how the deino here is designed.

Drought system so the deinos have to migrate on land!

[stark knoll]

It already does, 4T and below is most of the roster

[vocal pivot]

talkin about later in game when roster is bigger

apex kills and hunts other apexs as well

[stark knoll]

I know, most of the roster is 4T or smaller

[golden coral]

No they don't, not neccessarily.

[vocal pivot]

deno from what your saying doesnt need to touch anything besides small things even tho it has hunted alot bigger

[arctic mantle]

yeah but also dinos have to find new water spots and when the water does rise higher than it is right now then people wont know where to cross

[golden coral]

That's not.. this is a survival game, not a fighting game. There will be things you can not fight but run away from instead. Or just ignore. That's fine.

[vocal pivot]

no lol YES they do

all apexs fight and kill and eat other apexs but your saying deno is an apex and shouldnt do what other apexs dont\

like what??????

[golden coral]

No. I have no idea where you get that from? Has any dev said that all apexes will be actively hunting the other apexes? Because I know at least one dev has said deino will swim away from spino.

[neon willow]

I'd argue stego being on Utah's diet is largely intended to mean YOUNG stego... A lot of irl predators will kill babies but not adults of certain dangerous species. It's nearly unheard of for lions and hyenas to kill adult giraffes and elephants, although the babies are definitely on the menu if they can separate them from their parents...

[golden coral]

I mean, 4T isn't "small" by the way. But yes, I think deino is fine being a "mid tier" hunter honestly. Even if it could hunt bigger, and maybe if it gets a better mechanic it could, but it's not really needed.

[golden coral]

Yes, because not all apexes are designed to do that. Again, apex is just a term for x size and power, not a given way of hunting or anything else.

[vocal pivot]

bc spino is more nibble and has more ways to fight and is bigger spino is a amphibious hunter

im not talkin about deno v spino

[golden coral]

Look at anky, it's probably going to be less of a target to a giga or acro than a rex or spino.

[vocal pivot]

there are some exceptions

[golden coral]

Okay so, you admit that deino isn't meant to hunt every apex then?

[vocal pivot]

but deno shouldnt be running away from caddle at the water or swimming

[neon willow]

And deino one "hits" everything except stego if it lands lunge on ANYWHERE (not just head)

[golden coral]

Because spino is most certainly an apex.

[golden coral]

It should if the thing at the shoreline is another apex. You'd run away if it was a trike, or anky, or rex as well.

[vocal pivot]

spino i swimming nothing deno can do honestly it may be stronger biteforce but spino has alot more on deno

[golden coral]

Or do you imagine you're meant to go up against a shant?

[vocal pivot]

but things on the water that doesnt really swim or needs water should be scared

[golden coral]

Most things that need water, or go for a swim, will be terrified. Again, most of the roster is not above 4T.

[vocal pivot]

or worried not o i need water let me just go get some no worries

[golden coral]

You'll have a whole bunch of playables that will be terrified

[neon willow]

Yeah same! Would be cool opportunity for deinos and other near aquatics to move around

[ocean sentinel]

My problem with designing Deino to punch down is it forces it into a brain dead playstyle. You either kill it with a single right click, or you swim away.

[vocal pivot]

just like some things are an exception a big dino like camara or long necks or biger herbs you dont f with

bc croc s dont go after hipos

but they respect each other

[ocean sentinel]

I'm honestly not sure if it's good to design anything as dedicated punch down predator.

[golden coral]

To be fair, even punching down, you could make the tug of war more interesting. Current mechanic is not very good though, no matter if you let it hunt small or big targets.

Not like it'd suddenly be more demanding if we let deino grab fully grown stegos?

So no matter the limit on the mechanic, we need a better one, not the current one.

[vocal pivot]

swiming where it has no stance or risitance and is light weight

dumby

[ocean sentinel]

I can agree with that statement

But regardless I'd like to Deino to eventually be encouraged to hunt things that can actually kill it.

[neon willow]

I'd compare stego less to cattle and more to an elephant or giraffe... And no, crocodiles don't regularly hunt either

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, I don't mind if we let deino hunt bigger things, as long as the mechanic means there's some actual fight and all that. Not this.. "Oh, a deino here, guess I'll die" and down the drain goes all the effort to grow an apex :p

But as it stands, with the current mechanic, I can see why a punch down predator is reasonable, for balance and sheer enjoyment for that matter.

[vocal pivot]

yes i understand that but im talkin about SWIMMING

you weigh alot alot alottttt less and have no reisistance

[golden coral]

And I did, way back there, agree that if something is swimming, it's fine to let deino grab at a higher limit.

But that's assuming it's actually swimming, not just standing in water or at the shoreline.

[vocal pivot]

then thats my fault i didnt see that brother

[vocal pivot]

yeah bc then its standing and can fight back

[golden coral]

I don't mind if deino can drown even shants when they're swimming, because why are they out there swimming in the first place. (But I also think it's fine to have "safe" crossings, because they'll be dangerous for other reasons, and there might be younger ones there as well that you can try and grab)

[ocean sentinel]

Yes, but to be honest I don't even consider the current lunge when discussing how I think Deino should fit into the game, because it's just that meh to me.

[neon willow]

First, let's clear something up-- apex (coming from the term apex predator) refers to an animal that is not regularly preyed upon by other animals as an adult. Young often have a high mortality, and sometimes apex predators come into conflict and fight/kill each other. Irl examples would be African/Asian elephants, lions, hyenas, jaguars, grey wolves, bears, tigers, leopards, crocodiles, alligators, sharks, whales, etc. I'd even lump some animals like moose, water buffalo, bison, and giraffes into the category.

Apex (both irl and in games) does NOT mean that the animal hunts other apexes, or that they primarily, frequently, or preferentially fight other apexes. In fact, typically irl apexes will actively avoid fights with other apexes due to the extremely high risk of injury or death.

Now, on to deino, irl and game balance wise

[golden coral]

Fair enough! But I think we should, because mechanics are probably not at easy to just change, or even fix, as we'd like (look at utah pounce, works okay, does not work okay, does not work at all, works too good) :p

[neon willow]

So deino is, without a shadow of a doubt, designed to be probably the most environment/biome dependent playable in the game. It's EXTREMELY slow out of water, with terrible dehydration and stamina to force it to stay in it's lane. And it works... But the downside is if it had lower health it would be guaranteed screwed if it was caught walking (and the map has a few places where it's required)-- not good for an apex animal that requires a LOT of time to grow. So, it's got a ton of health and even bleed resistance to give it a chance to get back to water if it's caught in a bad spot

But then the other issue is that it is also easy to tail ride and quickly wear down... So they give it a 360 degree attack and enough damage to deter tail riding, but as it's MAIN hunting mechanic (and most effective mechanic) is definitely drowning, it makes no sense to give it a stronger bite force than rex (whose main hunting mechanic will almost certainly be biting). Realism or no, that's how deino is designed to encourage the intended gameplay loop.

[ocean sentinel]

True, devs are already pretty busy as is.

[neon willow]

The result is that deino is honestly one of the most successful hunters in the game if it stays in it's intended play style-- at the waters edge, it will probably be able to one shot a solid 1/2 to 2/3 of the roster if they're drinking (and EVERYTHING has to drink).

But, because of THAT, they have a problem. Most other apexes can't kill alert small and mid tiers because they are largely SLOW (which is how they balance the apexes- with their high damage, they will likely kill any low to mid tier they get their paws on, so the solution is to allow players to just... Not get apex paws on their non-apex dinos). Deino doesn't have this limitation because everything has to come to it because dehydration. So... The other limitation they put on it is to make it weaker to apexes-- that way, no one dinosaur/reptile is ever considered superior in literally all circumstances. And it doubles as a way to force deinos to not 1-shot dinos with more than 3-4 hours of effort put into them (meaning a greater loss if they die)

If you want to hunt apexes-- there are dinos designed for that niche, but it is not crocodile. If you want to have consistent guaranteed kills over most (but not ALL) of the roster, then crocodile is your go-to.

[vocal pivot]

croc irl hunts very large animals on waters edge

and in water

[neon willow]

And even in the aquatic niches, no dino should be so perfectly designed that they have no threat from other dinos. Deino should not be picking fights with spino or Cheri, for example. But just because it probably won't win a head to head fight doesn't mean it's poorly designed-- most likely, like other dinos that are likely to lose fights against certain playables, deino will have the advantage of speed or stamina to avoid conflicts with the large aquatics, while applying predation pressure to juveniles

[vocal pivot]

your right and thats whats spino is for

[neon willow]

Yes but the point is, this is not irl, and we do not want a situation where any dinosaur can singlehandedly ambush any other dino on the roster and one shot them. Stego is that way right now and it royally stinks, but it won't always be that way as more apexes are added with 8k+ health

[vocal pivot]

but yet your still comparing things to irl as well not only me

your opening statment was irl

[neon willow]

Also it's important to remember that often times stuff like strength doesn't scale linearly with weight, so comparing something a 1000 lb male saltwater crocodile can kill to something an 8 metric ton alligator can kill is probably a bit misleading

[vocal pivot]

in fact since its heavier it should be stronger

iv been phyically in a battle with these things i cant imagine the strength with an 8 ton gator

[neon willow]

And after talking about the definition of a term I regularly see misquoted in this discord, the whole of my deino analysis is solely based on in-game mechanics, niche, and playstyle

[neon willow]

It doesn't scale linearly, though. So you can't just upscale your experience with an alligator and get an accurate estimate of what deino can do. Besides, as I already said... My analysis of deino had no basis in reality, solely it's function and design in game. And honestly... Although an 8T gator that can drag around and drown 12T animals, and has a bite force greater than rex AND armor that makes it resistant to all damage may be realistic... That makes for a very, very unfun playing experience and an unbalanced design in a survival game

And ultimately, the point of a game is to be fun, and competitive, so... In a conflict between the former and realism, realism will lose every time

[arctic mantle]

not going to lie that does sound unfun but stego is that way right now that is why there is so many canni stegs because there is nothing that can fight it other than for like 6-8 utahs and maybe 2-4 deinos and that is just to face like 1 stego

[vocal pivot]

facs

[arctic mantle]

that knows what it is doing

a newbie might be easily killed by like 3 utahs and 2 deinos

but if it is its second or third rodeo then it would take what i said before

[neon willow]

Exactly! Except stego you have the option to just avoid it. Not like you can just avoid deino, because you have to go to the river to drink. No matter how much people try with drinking behind rocks and in shallow areas

And even stego will likely struggle to fight the other apexes once they get added, because despite their high damage, they have rather low health for an apex animal (or semi-apex, as some people call it)

[arctic mantle]

but utahs have so much disadvantage against steg like is a stego is next to a hill and a tree then it is game over for utahs and even if 2 deinos are able to stun and get headbites the stego has like an 80% chance to get away even when they are panicking and can just go heal

[arctic mantle]

not really legacy rex weighs about the same and if they dont scale up the rex's weight then it will die before the stego does because stego has such an amazing turn radius

[neon willow]

You're right of course. On both fronts. Largely because tbh, the stego is a poor choice of prey for both Utah and deino due to it's particular mechanics-- there is no other dino that has so much weight that deino can't grab it (which is it's main method of hunting, remember-- biting is more so for DEFENSE than attacking for deino) and it's also the only dino in game with a flank/side attack, which is typically where Utah's go to pounce without getting hit

[neon willow]

Rex is honestly probably a bad choice for hunting stego too-- it has a very large head and must attack with its head leaving it vulnerable to headshots

[arctic mantle]

not to even mention they are giving stego and attack that can hit heads easier on apexs like rex and it will probably do more than its normal attack because you have to run to do it which is the only downside to the attack

[arctic mantle]

but if that is the case then what is acro suppose to do, the legacy acro weighs about 4.5 tons

[golden coral]

If a rex gets the ambush on a stego, I really don't see that stego surviving. Especially not if rex also gets some kind of ability like a "bite down and go crunch" style attack.

[golden coral]

I imagine our acro might get a bit heavier. Charts (unofficial as they are) have it at 5800 or so I believe. Also the concept seem to imply a rather hefty acro so there is that.

[neon willow]

Honestly the best dinos for hunting stego should have a smaller head or one with a damage reduction bonus, or those with the speed agility advantage over stego who can still tank a couple hits, or those whose main method for attacks does not involve their head

[arctic mantle]

hopefully they dont make it drain stam as fast as it did on legacy or it is not winning the fight in my opinion

[golden coral]

In general I'd say the other big predators with more proper attacks/bite force are going to be a bad day for a stego that tries to fight them. And yeah, mid tiers, like alberto as shown in concept, might be a solid hunter of stego. Tanky enough to take a swing (if we get proper swings that is), and fast enough to juke any more powerful jab from the stego.

[neon willow]

Well, discounting the ambush advantage... Every dino gets heavy advantage if they can sneak up and surprise their opponent

[golden coral]

I don't think we should take any legacy stats and apply to Evrima. So I wouldn't worry about that. And I can see two acros take a stego pretty reliably so it should be fine.

[neon willow]

Anyways stego has its own balance issues atm... But deino mostly is fairly balanced, pending addition of a few other aquatics. Id love to see deino lunge reworked to be a little less of a guaranteed success (to encourage slightly more planning/playing and not just sitting around waiting for a one shot kill), and if that happens then it'd be cool to see it get balanced to have slightly better odds against other apexes to compensate. But otherwise, not fighting apexes is the compromise it took for being so successful against small and mid tiers

[tall bronze]

Deino's lunge not being so simplistic and boring would definitely be nice. ;-; and also 4T Deino

[arctic mantle]

well i mean if it does not have 80% or more stam then it is most likely not going to drown a carno or teno or anything of that size range or bigger meaning that in most cases you have to move wasting stam getting to your target there is a few lucky times were a thing will walk right up to the spot your at. But i do like it when i have to go to my target because then i have to let go right before i hit 0% stam and start bitting my prey and hoping they are out of stam which gives me a rush

but i do agree with solis that deino night vison needs to be increased

[neon willow]

Wouldn't it be lovely if you got a little more of that, though? And if you set up in a good spot, the number of times you actually have to let go and start biting isn't that often

Oh absolutely. Deino's rely on ambush so they need to see so they can set things up

[marsh marsh]

Wait if deino has less then 80npercent stam it cant drown an adult carno and teno??

[hasty coyote]

It can prob still drown a carno, but I could be wrong on that. However, even a deino at full stam can’t drown a full stam teno, teno has too much stam and oxygen.

[marsh marsh]

So a teno with full stam would be safe from 1 deino?!

[hasty coyote]

Unless the deino drags it into deep enough water, and bites it as it crosses.

[marsh marsh]

Ah I see thanks for sharing youre a gem

[hasty coyote]

It still has ways to kill a teno, teno just has the capability to survive if the deino acts like it’s any other dino. It’s mainly because teno is supposed to be slightly semi-aquatic, so it needs a way to survive deinos.

[whole gust]

@fiery ruin carno is a lot more agile and deadly now. If it had its old stamina along with the speed it has right now, it would be bad news for the rest of the smaller playables, especially utah and teno. It's always subject to change but as far as I've seen and heard, the devs want it to be an ambush predator.

[marsh marsh]

Yeah but I hope for more opportunities to actually ambush on the new map velada since spiro is big and open Idk if you get what I mean also carno hunger drain doesnt allow for sitting in forest or bush for too long Imo

[marsh marsh]

But other then that I m with you

[whole gust]

Carno hunger drain definitely needs to be slower

[marsh marsh]

Ye if it stays an ambush predator I think so

[hasty coyote]

@fiery ruin carno also needs that low stam so that the smaller tiers have the ability to run. Pachy for instance would have no chance in escape if it couldn’t out stam a carno. It would make body fractures useless and pachy would solely rely on a leg fracture. Dryo and hypsi would have no way to escape, since they rely on running, but would be slower and have less stam.

[fiery ruin]

So when the roster gets bigger will it have the same stam as legacy

[dusky surge]

probably not

its niche has changed since legacy

especially with its new charge move

[hasty coyote]

Probably not, still will have the same issues as I stated above, maybe even more issues when there are more smalls to hunt. However, it will likely have slower hunger drain because 90% of the roster won’t be it’s perfect hunting size.

[winter iris]

Actually, carno isn’t that agile it is just fast. But movements and acceleration have been nerfed and you can clearly feel and see that in fights. Not saying that it should have stayed as in update 4.5 , but saying carno is agile is just false. Maybe more agile than in legacy, but definitely not an agile playable, at all, especially when compared to similarly sized animals (read teno)

[winter iris]

Agreed, more less. I think that some adjustments, like a bit less stam consumption when bucking or a bit less consumption with ram could help. To have an idea in values:

• When bucking something like 50% of what it is now I think would work
• When ramming something like 80-85% of what it is now

This means that ram would use 80-85% stam of what it does now (so almost the same) and bucking would use half.
For bucking I only refer to adult utahs because for juvies I already said that I think a fully grown creature should use no stam to buck (or anyway no stam up to a certain ratio between your weight and that of the utah pouncing)

Oh, the adjustment for stamina consumption when bucking I think should be valid for all dinos, not just carno

[whole gust]

Yeah, I was saying it's more agile than it was in legacy. A lot harder to dodge it in evrima than in legacy.

[hasty coyote]

I was mainly referring to the running stam, like the other person was talking about. Otherwise I’m not sure about any other changes.

[arctic summit]

@fiery ruin Carno Isn't directly supposed to chase, its SUPPOSED to be (looking at hunger drain) an ambush predator. So its supposed to tread behind it and stalk. Again its SUPPOSED TO, but its hunger drain screws that up.

[fiery ruin]

k

[arctic summit]

☠️

[errant plinth]

its balance, slow things should be distance runners.

[neon willow]

Honestly with the last balance update they probably nerfed carno a bit too heavily. Between the bleed weakness, low stamina, and quick hunger drain, it's probably the hardest dino to play by a good bit atm

Stamina shouldn't be moved because higher Stam + speed = deathball

[arctic summit]

Agreed, but it can still demolish utah packs if skilled enough. Maybe 10 or so hours of fighting and you understand the mechanics of carno. Hunger drain is the only thing about carno IMO that needs to be fixed.

[neon willow]

Bleed could be improved, but tbh given it's an ambusher, I don't mind giving it a reliance on getting that first hit/charge off to win, and it should be disadvantaged in longer brawls

[arctic summit]

Bleed is probably easily fixed by scaling the amount of bleed dealt on a pounce with the age of utah. Aswell as making it not do bleed do adult carnos if its a fresh spawn.

[neon willow]

But if that's how they want to force it to play (as an ambusher that needs to get that first attack to be successful), then they need to give it some more hunger so it can do the setup for ambush and pick it's fights

[arctic summit]

exactly

[errant plinth]

"probably" is a bit of an understatement lol, it was the only check for utahs and now you have to be a good carno player to even survive an encounter unless you get the drop on them but even then theyre just gonna chase you forever and use fresh spawns until you die.

[neon willow]

Agreed. Kinda silly that Utah's can respawn, run back to the fight at 15-20% grown, and completely drain Stam and keep bleed going on the same creature they were fighting. Killing Utah's doesn't knock players from the fight like other dinos

[arctic summit]

Thats true, I like that utahs are stronger now, as a carno main it gives a sense of fear for survival. BUT, face pouncing, and insane amounts of bleed when the utah isnt even an adult ALONG with the fast hunger drain is a bit absurd

[arctic summit]

Exactly

Do mitigate the bleed situating, make mud pools more apparent and nerf utah face pounce. Boom insane balance right there (not considering carno hunger)

[neon willow]

Yeah I like that Utah's aren't pushovers... That being said. Death should mean you can no longer contribute meaningfully to the fight even if you run back. That currently does not apply to utah

[arctic summit]

Insanely true. Baby utahs are so annoying and do insane amount of bleed for fresh spawns

[errant plinth]

i think the bleed should be toned down slightly though still much higher than it used to be when carnos ruled everything, but lower than the ridiculous level its at right now

[arctic summit]

Yeah maybe like 15% more resistance since you rarely find solo utahs anymore

[errant plinth]

right now playing utah and stego(though thats not getting nerfed) is more an iq test than anything, do you want to be the most dangerous carnivore in the game or do you want to be prey.

[errant plinth]

apparently a boar is harder to bleed than a carno lol

[winter iris]

Hunger drain is really fast, but tbh I have died to starvation just once and because I decided to go through the map. Amongst all things it’s the last one I’d amend about carno right now

[arctic summit]

Mhm yeah but not everyone wants to pvp all the time, sometimes i wanna explore the map or nest. But, guess i gotta be a pvp lord...

[winter iris]

True, I also would love to explore the map, but I think that bleeding for example is to be adjusted earlier, and hunger can stay like this if the map stays exactly the same. Also carno bite atm is a bit broken and would need some work

[arctic summit]

ye the hitbox is funky. But i stand by that carno hunger drain needs a buff. There is a lot of cool stuff in the jungle that nobody ever sees because i will starve to death. Also would be cool to nest there.

[winter iris]

Fair enough mate. And yes, the map is full of cool stuff that as carno you can’t explore

[arctic summit]

Much appreciated for not shitting on my opinion haha. Have a nice day lad

[golden coral]

@drowsy wingIf you mean the current raptor ingame, it's no longer a utah, since it's getting a name change to Omniraptor (since it's not accurate to a utah anyway and is a "game" creation). But we are, or so I've heard, getting an accurate utahraptor somewhere down the line, and that one might very well be much more physically powerful (but lacking a pounce most likely).

[keen plover]

80-85n would be insane on omni. Literally the perfect playable at that point.

[slim dragon]

But he wasn't talking about omni he's talking about utah

[keen plover]

Simple mistake on my end

[marsh marsh]

@fiery ruin not saying youre necessarily bad but you could improve fighting utahs also its likely you ran too much and the juked you so you bled out

[fiery ruin]

As the teno or carno?

I think when I was the carno I stood my ground and killed 1 out of 3 utahs but then bled out since I couldn’t get away and sit

[marsh marsh]

Both tbh

[fiery ruin]

Nah I’m pretty bad xd

[fiery ruin]

@zealous void can u tell me what u think is wrong about my feedback (not being rude just wanna know)

[zealous void]

@fiery ruin I think carno is actually in a pretty good place right now. The quick food drain incentivizes constant movement and makes kills more rewarding, plus it prevents massive corpse piles just sitting around. The largest carnivore should be the most difficult to play. If you’re solo, just don’t attack groups of Utah. You can still outrun them, and pick off lone ones with the charge.

[fiery ruin]

i agree except with the food drain you cant nest or have time between hunts i have also had a carno pack starving on a hunt cus it took a while

[dreamy fiber]

It's only the largest carnivore at current. I'd like to be able to nest and chat at a carno, chill out a bit rather than be on a constant warpath to murder everything because I have to do so. Nights as carno are horrendously unfun.

[zealous void]

@dreamy fiber If you want to sit around and chat, herbivores are great for that. Carnivores should be more hunting focused. I do agree about in night thing though. Night vision really needs to be better

[winter iris]

#and don’t agree, quite on everything tbh. Carno is not in a very good spot atm and there are a few things that need amendments. As I said, hunger could stay as it is in my opinion , as long as the map does not change. But there are other bits for which carno is definitely not in a good spot. On the fact that carno should be the hardest to play, I’m not sure. Certainly it is the hardest playable atm . On utah vs carno, it’s not true that you can outrun them always, sometimes it’s true but not always. I’d say in average 1 out of two times you can do it, which is pretty crap in terms of odds. And pick lone utahs is basically pure luck as there are many Utah megapacks right now. Additionally, a single Utah gives something like 25-30% food, so carno should be able to fight 2-3 utahs as a normal thing, even if I agree that ambushing a lone Utah should be the preferred approach…currently if you’re in the wrong location and you’re fighting 2 decent utahs it’s like 70-30 in favour of utahs (and it’s never only 2 utahs). Many people talk about how it should be in theory, but just a few seem to analyse what is practically happening in game to then develop feedbacks. I mean, I play Utah as well, and I know how easy it is compared to carno (in general) and how easy it is now to kill adult carnos. In my opinion it’s too easy to kill carnos and Utah as a playable is too much easier than carno

[thin mantle]

@errant plinth A baby Utah shouldn’t even have the capability of dealing bleed damage to anything Ava sized or larger, they’re the most effective “bleed maintainers” in the game and they absolutely shouldn’t have that power

[errant plinth]

i agree but also i'm petty and want them to die immediatly once someone starts bucking

[thin mantle]

Oh then we’re in agreement XD

[errant plinth]

something the size of a cat shouldnt be a threat to anything other than troodons and chickens

or a really bad human player

[thin mantle]

Essentially

It’s funny that our smallest carni has the most powerful juvi stage lol

[somber sphinx]

Now imagine that kind of power to troodon

[errant plinth]

endless spam envenomation pouncing by babys on adult stegos lets go

[hasty coyote]

Man forgets the existence of ptera
Or just ignores the sky rat

[thin mantle]

Oh god kill me now

[thin mantle]

In my defense ptera is only categorically a carni because it eats meat…..barely

[hasty coyote]

cant blame you on that part lol

[icy prawn]

i mean it hunts so like

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/will-ferrell-elf-buddy-the-elf-throne-of-lies-christmas-gif-3580667

[icy prawn]

it huts fish man

[hasty coyote]

@muted cliff the reason pachy stops after missing is to allow other Dinos to counter attack when it misses, otherwise it would basically have no moment of vulnerability. Ram takes prio over all other attacks, so there’s not really a way to hit a pachy if it can just stun you or run off immediately after you dodge.

[muted cliff]

i think it should be at least walking speed so it isnt awfully easy for utahs to attacks back or pounce

[strange rivet]

With so many people saying "buff pachy's damage" i would rather have it more fluid and decrease that time instead. The momentum right now feels just plain weird.
There's no need to remove it completely, but i don't think it's true that it would removes every moment of vulnerability.

Heck it should favor the main tactic to stun/fracture and run away, instead of rewarding belligerents who just want to pulverize everything in their path

[muted cliff]

also im not sure if thats already planned but there should be some really crippling debuffs after several non stop pachy headbutts to for example carnos. they get hit and only get a body fracture and their legs broken with futher rams only causing damage [HP], i feel like at some point it should barely be able to walk yet they are fully capable of killing anyway.

[strange rivet]

well varying fracture severity is planned already

at least, according to what i've been told

[neon willow]

@fiery ruin I wouldn't cap juvi bleed entirely (babies gotta eat too), but maybe cap it as a weight percentage... Eg you can't add bleed unless you weigh X% of the target's weight until you hit 80% or so

[tall bronze]

👍

[neon willow]

Because a spawn Utah should have a reasonable chance to kill a spawn teno or stego... But it makes no sense that a 50kg raptor can start a bleed on a 1.6T teno 💀

[hasty coyote]

It’s supposed to leave you vulnerable. Plus, if you make it difficult for a utah to hit back, then a carno has basically no chance to hit a pachy. Honestly what I would do is make utah pounce miss take longer too, not as long as it used to, but somewhere in-between that way pachy and carno also have the chance to ram/bite the utah if it misses.

[golden coral]

Why not just make utah pounce and pachy ram take the same time to recover, fair for both sides?

[hasty coyote]

Although I agree the momentum is a bit awkward, that isn’t the issue. The issue is that pachy lacks the damage. Utah should have to and has the ability to juke a pachy. Meanwhile pachy has difficulty hitting, but it should HURT when it does hit. However, it currently only takes like 2-3 pounces to kill a pachy, but pachy needs to knockdown 3-4 times (maybe 2 if the utah is brain dead and gets rammed in the face). So it ends up that pachy has a harder time hitting, deals less damage, and can’t run from the fight.

[alpine plover]

Different mobility stats, different effects.

[hasty coyote]

Also, lowering the stun delay on pachy encourages the “bash til death” rather than the “break and run” since you’re likely to miss more times with 20 rams than with 3.

[golden coral]

The effects I don't think are that relevant, since they're both very detrimental to whatever they hit, so that's similar enough. And while the mobility could be a decent reason, that would only argue that pachy should have the shorter recovery and utah the longer then.

[hasty coyote]

Essentially what I was saying, pachy has 1.5 sec delay, utah has technically 1.5 sec because it has 1 sec delay on the ground and spends about .5 sec in the air

[golden coral]

So, just add that .5 sec to the time on ground and see how that goes?

[alpine plover]

They're detrimental yes, but the applications of both have separate goals.
In this case, Utah needs to capitalize it's mobility to punish the more defensive Pachy given the slim windows of opportunity to apply such.

[golden coral]

But it works both ways with the whole capitalizing on the miss of the other, so that's also similar. Anyway, you said different effects, I just pointed out both of them are about as detrimental to each other, so it's pretty fair there. The goal is another thing, if you want to argue that. And since utah has the greater agility and mobility, it should reasonably be the one with the greater punishment on miss, compared to the pachy, who is at a greater risk of missing. So it'd just be easier to give them both the same timer, not too bad for the utah (after all currently there's no punishment 99.9% of the time), and the pachy as open as it's always been.

[alpine plover]

Reasonable point that the difficulty should be higher to account for the greater mobility

Thought the effects is relevant as in they play by different rules, the Utah cannot afford to make 1-2 mistakes while applying pressure throughout the encounter

A pachy in this scenario is to be patient, weave, and perfectly time a devastating counter

Similar to the Teno/Carno dynamic, but more dialed extremely

[golden coral]

Depends on what you mean with mistake in this case?

[alpine plover]

Say you have a decent pounce, move in to bite to keep the bleed up, overcommit/mistime an unfavorable position

Or not account for stam usage, and be caught in a bad position that could lead to be run down

Not properly baiting, predictable movements that get shot back in your face

[golden coral]

If you have a decent pounce, that's pretty much it for the pachy though. So again, they're rather similar, one hit from the other and it's pretty much over. As for stam usage, I don't know, that sounds like you'd have to mess up so badly you should reconsider how you play in general. But I'd say neither side can afford to make 1-2 mistakes.

[alpine plover]

Then it's a good rule for both, though I do admit that application for the pounce is quite flat

[golden coral]

And most of what you point out, again, goes both ways. Both sides have to try and trick/bait the other. So I'm not sure how, when they are that similar, it wouldn't be pretty reasonable to give them the same timer on miss of their main ability.

Especially when current utah miss is, well, not really there honestly.

So upping it to pachy level should hardly be an issue, if pachies can do fine with that (apparently?), then utahs sure can as well, being able to keep going better from the recovery at that.

[alpine plover]

In high level play the encounter is pretty fine actually, though it does have to be adjusted the general play

Because in the hands of the average player, Pachy is pretty terrible

[golden coral]

The miss of the utah, is not okay, no matter the level of the play honestly.

So, even if high level players can use pachy well, that does not excuse, or relate, to the point of them having the same miss timer to make it more fair to use their mechanic.

[winter iris]

Honestly it isn’t true that pachy has difficulties hitting. Pachys ram, once started is locked on the target and gets delivered even if the opponents would have all the time to bit the pachy or escape (basically the opponent gets stuck for something like half a sec before being hit). So that’s already something only pachy and Utah have. I really don’t get the point about buffing pachys damage. Pachy already deliveres fractures which expose the opponent to serious chances of dying. I think if you play pachy you must accept that you’re playing an herbivore so it’s main activity shouldn’t be hunting down other players (which is something that pachy is already more than able to do). Honestly I think pachy is already more than ok damage-wise. I think people asking for a damage buff are mainly nostalgic of the update 4 pachy that was basically able to kill everything in a 1v1 (which was obviously non sense)

[golden coral]

Also I don't know, but unless said high level play is at least 7/10 wins for the pachy, something seems off. But that's more for general balance.

[alpine plover]

I think extending the missed pounce timer isn't a solution too though, it'll only return to the previous period that Utah was in a bad spot mechanically

[golden coral]

No, because utah was in a bad spot due to nonfunctioning pounce.

[alpine plover]

I'd say you'd have to rework the mechanic of bucking as an interaction to mitigate this issue

[golden coral]

Utah being bad earlier was only due to pounce not working properly, nothing else.

You could up the missed timer to 3 seconds and utah would still be perfectly fine currently with pounce.

Since it's rather brainless and easy to land.

[alpine plover]

I disagree, the long missed pounces made it severely unviable for most players, large amounts of packs would die in singular hunts.

[golden coral]

Because of the pounce not working, not becaused of the miss timer. They died because the pounce left them hanging in the air and other such funny stuff.

That's the sole reason carnos could solo a ten man band of utahs, and the same reason why carno bleed nerf was unneeded.

@winter irisI have to ask what you mean with pachys ram being "locked on target"? In what way, like, can you not dodge it sideways or something?

[alpine plover]

Carnos could solo groups of 6-10 Utahs even when the pounce worked, that's why they made it more severe and to push Utah as a more serious threat

[winter iris]

The only two playable that need some adjustment , as of now, are Utah and carno. Stego is basically out of all considerations, and deino as well (as a consequence). Pachy and teno are ok as they are now (apart form stego teno is the strongest land Dino atm), whilst Utah and carno need some adjustments. Pachy is definitely not the priority right now

[winter iris]

Problem is that now a single Utah can take down an adult carno, and you don’t even need to be particularly good

[golden coral]

No, they could not. That was entirely on the utahs being trash then. They've also not made the pounce "more severe". Now utah is just OP, again, because it's not balanced for properly working pounce.

[alpine plover]

Yes, I acknowledge that, two things can be an issue at once

[golden coral]

Revert the carno bleed nerf, and add .5 seconds or so on the utah miss (to equal pachy) and see how it goes from there.

[alpine plover]

They have, and that was a really dire issue for the state of Utah during those times

[golden coral]

How have they made the pounce more servere?

What do you mean with that then?

[alpine plover]

The solution would be to rework bucking, tie that in together with a grappling/knockdown system

[golden coral]

The only change that has happened is the carno bleed resistance nerf. And the lack of punishment on miss, but that doesn't really make the pounce itself more severe. The issue there is of course the magnetic pounce, but that also just make it even easier to use.

[golden coral]

Well yes, that is sorely needed, same with lunge, we all agree on that I think. Rework the pounce/buck interaction, and rework lunge interaction somehow.

But as for pounce, that could be fixed by negating head and tail pounce, that'd actually make using the pounce take some form of skill, so that'd be a start.

[winter iris]

Nope, and that’s something that also other people here have confirmed. Apparently pachys ram takes priority on every other attack from every playable, hence it doesn’t matter if you were able to dodge, once the player clicks the ram you get hit if you’re in the target zone, even if you would have been able to dodge it or to bite the pachy. To make it easier, it seems that what counts is not the moment in which the headbutt is delivered but when it starts. Additionally, pachy also deliveres its ram if it jumped and is in the middle of the air, which is obviously non sense, not only physically, but also because in theory it would be a mistake from the player and shouldn’t be rewarded with a delivered ram

[alpine plover]

True, though those are mentioned band aid fixes
I'm looking at it from a more fundamental sense

[golden coral]

Huh, that I have to test out. Never heard of that being a thing honestly. Have you reported that as a bug or similar?

[golden coral]

Such as? I'd think pounce only working on the flanks where you're supposed to be is somewhat fundamental to the mechanic honestly.

Also what did you mean with more severe pounce, please clarify!

[winter iris]

I noticed that in a few occasions, asked here to ensure it wasn’t just me and someone told me it’s actually how it has been designed

So I assume it’s not a bug but it’s intentionally like that

[alpine plover]

Reducing the timer for missed pounce, etc would be more band aid
Because Pounce would still be flat and deadly when applied.

[alpine plover]

Lowered blood pools universally, I'd say that was severe good in my eyes as a net positive

[golden coral]

But.. they haven't touched blood pools?

[alpine plover]

I'm pretty sure they have

Lowered them universally for all playables

[winter iris]

I totally disagree for a number of reasons.
First of all, something needs to be done to prevent the smallest predator to be the strongest. But this isn’t even the main reason.
The reason for which I completely disagree with your statement is that it would be true if carno stayed exactly as it was (except hunger) in update 4.5. The fact is that carno has been quite heavily nerfed now, and hunger I think is the only aspect that has been done correctly (to avoid megapacks). Carno bite is not working well atm, it’s movements have been nerfed and it’s acceleration as well. The combination of movement and accelerations nerfs make it more difficult to dodge smaller dinos attacks (pounce and pachy ram), particularly now that pounce is a teleporting magnet. The acceleration nerf itself made the ram less reliable because many times does not get activated (and ram is also buggy for some reason).
Additionally, carno blood pool is ridiculously low right now.
So, honestly speaking, analysing objective facts what you said would not result in a situation that is similar to update 4.5 and it is one of the things that need to be adjusted about utah pounce (increase recovery after a failed one), together with a slight increase in carno blood pool

[golden coral]

Which patch would that be in? Because the last blood pool change I can recall is when weight and health and thus blood pool was tied together

I know they changed weights around, but that was a good while ago, if that's what you mean?

@winter irisCarno bite is probably fine honestly, it's at least better than it having xenomorph jaws like earlier.

[golden coral]

Yes, that's a change to resistances, not blood pool itself.

[calm ibex]

afaik this is the only change that "buffs" bleed

[golden coral]

And I think I did mention that one earlier, at the very least, that's the only recent change that would impact pounce.

[calm ibex]

yes, i don't recall seeing any other changes

[golden coral]

What's more likely, is that pounce bleed is overtuned, and has been the entire time. We just know it now because it actually works.

But since we've not been able to balance pounce because well, it didn't work properly, that's something that should be revised now that it does work. Since the bleed is probably a little too good for how solid and easy the playable is.

[alpine plover]

Some of the issues are a consequence of either bugs, or not properly tweaked, which should be fixed. From an intentional design standpoint though. Given the current roster, it makes sense that Utah(the smallest) is powerful given it's intended design. Which is to pack hunt larger/more powerful creatures than Tenos, etc
Utah is a consistent endurance hunter, applying pressure throughout a hunt to bring it's prey down. Reworking buck would mitigate it.
As in, making Utah's capabilities work along the lines of a consistent smg, reducing the timer fundamentally would be antithetical of it's hunting method.
Making it work more like a Sniper, Like a Teno tail slam, Stego, Pachy, etc.

[winter iris]

I played many hours using carno since the update, and its bite is definitely not working well. I am not saying that the hit box adjustment was a wrong decision. What I mean is that , in practice, more than half the bites that are in target do not get delivered. And again, it’s not only me but many people that played many hours using carno noticed. It’s not a secret that carno bite is not working well

[golden coral]

The pounce needs a proper punishment on miss, if not an increase in timer, maybe a drain on stam or something so you can't spam pounces like currently. Also yes, it's powerful, but meanwhile, the carno was designated to hunt utah sized animals, and it's not half as lethal then to them as it should be. (because people complained when carno did its job properly of course). So I don't know, utah is most likely overtuned in most ways since it has been powered up due to pounce being so broken. Just imagine how quickly a trike would die right now if it was in game.

(I think I misread, anyway, since you mentioned stego sniper, yes stego needs a rework, it should by no means work like it does currently!).

[golden coral]

To be fair, I agree, I've had far too many sitations where I felt it should be a hit but it wasn't. But I don't know how to fix that, unless you have some way that also prevents the whole extendable jaws issue?

[winter iris]

I agree with most of the things you said, except the conclusion. Your conclusion seems to be based on a theoretical idea of what the game should be rather than on the observation of what the changes in the code have produced and hence trying to adjust them a bit. Pounce can currently be spammed with no to little chances of being punished. And this, also considering how strong pounce currently is, is just wrong. Additionally, pounce tpdoes not require any skill to be performed (on the contrary teno tail slam needs at least some good timing ) so increasing a bit the recovery time would, again, not have the effect you are suggesting

[golden coral]

Utah, like the pachy, can come in numbers, mitigating the risk of a miss and mitigating that you miss in the first place by forcing the target to be distracted and focus on all of you. So I honestly do not see how increasing the timer to pachy miss would be an issue at all. Utah would still probably be perfectly fine, and most likely still overtuned at that.

[alpine plover]

Making it too long would bring up the previous issues of Pounce being treated as a Sniper, when it's entire design is antithetical to so.
Imagine if bucking gets a proper rework, together with Utah's pounce miss being extended long. It'd make it very difficult for Utah to apply it's niche.
Though I do agree rn, Utah's pounce works more like poison(which again, is still attrition) though Utah should have differentiation in it's tactics, should be more closer in risky pockets, while still being deadly

[golden coral]

Yeah, I misread a bit. But I don't think having a miss timer like pachy means it's a sniper? Though maybe that's just how we look at the critters and use the word here, so I'll let that slide. I mean, I don't consider pachy to be a sniper, or even teno, due to their mobility and otherwise ability to readjust after any and everything.

I kind of get what you mean, but I guess I don't see it that way, it never occured to me to call pachy that so.

[alpine plover]

Apologies, Sniper is a term used in boxing, like a big hit you can't miss, but if it lands. It's devastating

[hasty coyote]

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say pachy is “locked on target” when it rams.

Plus, I’m not saying “buff ram, me want fight all big things” I’m saying that specifically in the utah v pachy matchup pachy lacks the damage it needs. It takes 3-4 knockdowns compared to Utah’s 2-3 pounces. Also, Utah’s pounce drops your bleed to half, which cripples pachy’s already low stamina. This means pachy is forced to end the fight quickly, or die. However, it can’t end the fight quickly because it doesn’t deal enough damage.

So, in a fight that pachy should have the advantage in (since it’s slower than utah and virtually the same size), it is instead in a disadvantage.
Now, I’m also not saying the fight is or should be impossible to win, just that one side is 60/40.

[alpine plover]

In those terms, Utah should work more as in, small consistent jabs, wear out the opponent until it drops

[golden coral]

Ah, so noted. Yes, it makes more sense then with that explanation. So you think utah should be more of a constant pressure with much more effective buck and similar, than the "hard to land but rewarding" pounce that most people seem to want?

Yeah, figured you out! :p

[alpine plover]

Exactly, yes

I think the current bleed/pounce iteration really is more suiting for Troodon/Dilo if anything

[golden coral]

To be fair, most people seem to go for the "high risk, high reward" mentality so. But I'd still say miss needs a punishment.

So if not a stun timer, what about stam drain then?

So if you miss, three times in a row, you're now out of stam and have to go rest up somewhere?

[winter iris]

I’d agree on one point: making changes can adjust something and ruin something else in the balance of the game. I think we need to accept it until the game gets developed further and also more playable are added to the roster (this would be a game changer imo). But currently the failed pounce receivers time is non existent basically and it (objectively be spammed). So an easy fix would be slightly increase the failed pounce recovery time. I am pretty sure Utah pounce would still be deadly and easy to use, simply it could not be spammed and would force utahs to hunt in packs and lick their fights rather then face tanking a group of 2 carnos as solo Utah because between spamming pounce and movements you can easily avoid being bitten or pounce the opponent

[golden coral]

I think troodon might work how you want utah to work honestly. Lots of timed and consistent pounces to keep the venom in and rising and all that.

If I've understood it halfway correct at least.

[alpine plover]

Maybe make it more like jump yes, but more extreme, the more you spam those jabs and miss, the more trouble you're in. You can still miss, but only sometimes

[golden coral]

Yeah, that'd be fine. Honestly my main issue with the pounce there was always the spamability. I don't neccesarily think a "stun" on miss has to be there, more so that if that utah pounces, misses, and pounces and misses again, it should be a moment of "go sit in the corner and think about how you aim" or something.

So keep current miss stun, and just add another punishment then. I can agree to that!

[alpine plover]

Rework the pounce bleed dynamic too with bucking as well.

[hasty coyote]

Oh so that’s what you meant, you’re half right on that, but that’s like 3 different scenarios.
1: pachy ram takes prio over all attacks. Yes, unless it’s something like deino/stego and carno ram. However I have also been hit by tail slam while in the ram animation, so it may be something with the stun rather than the move.
2: ram hits you even if you move. This is like partially true, but it’s also true with everything: it’s called lag. I have seen the opposite happen too, I have HIT utahs and seen them fall, but they slide across the ground and take no damage. Essentially it just played the animation with no actual effects.
3:ram activates while falling. You can’t activate it mid-air, but if you ram at the edge and fall while you lunge forward, yeah you can ram through the air.

[alpine plover]

Fast paced, consistent and fair for both parties,

[winter iris]

That would be easily resolved increasing pachys blood pool or decreasing bleeding caused by pounce. Pachy is definitely ok damage wise atm. And most of the times when a Utah gets hit it runs away. Then there are particular situations , but my idea is that the overall stats cannot be based on the fact that some people want to fight until the very last second in every situation. Utah needs to kill to survive, pachy doesn’t so it makes sense that its attacks are not designed to go around hunting utahs. Additionally, once pachy gets a hit it can easily land a second and often a third one. So your suggestion would make pachy a lot stronger than utah, whilst adjusting blood pool or pounce bleeding efficiency could work without unbalancing the fight too much. My opinion of course

[golden coral]

If we can get an actual rework on buck and pounce and lunge and all yes. For now I'd be happy if bucking was actually good, and not just a way to die faster as it currently seems.

Would changing how fast you heal from bleed be an option I wonder, to adjust matchups?

Not how fast the bleeding itself heals, but how fast you recover blood that is.

So if a pachy has taken a pounce, but manages to get the legbreak on the utah, so it runs away. The pachy might then be able to recover that lost blood and be ready by the time the utah comes back (since it will, people dont back down in this game unless forced).

[alpine plover]

Right, and for balance/gameplay standpoints, I think it's too easy to drain out prey after landing some pounces and sitting around,
While it's frustrating for the prey to deal with a "Sniper" ability

[golden coral]

I still think you're describing troodon rather than utah Nacen, but maybe you can make a case for swapping them around.

[alpine plover]

That's my case, yes

I'd swap them if I could

[golden coral]

I meant more so a feedback post, not so much convincing me, I'm at the least thinking it would be interesting to test out.

But then I am also a fan of testing even the smallest changes, and testing a lot things just to see what will happen and how it will go so.

[alpine plover]

What happened to blood stages too?
We could bring that back

[golden coral]

Well, stam regen goes down as blood does, if that counts as stage? Otherwise I guess its like with fracture severity, not a thing yet?

[alpine plover]

Fracture severity is not a thing yet

No

[golden coral]

But maybe something to come, at least the fractures thing is. As for the blood, I don't know, if they kept the old concept or not at all.

I'm a fan of the original bleed will affect stam directly and all that. But well, we didn't get that so.

[winter iris]

Oh, and I would also be in favour of increasing recovery time after a failed pounce. This should also help pachy in a fight against Utah

[alpine plover]

Erik, you did mention one time

About stopping "kosing" behavior too

I think diseases, infection, or fractures could reduce that

[hasty coyote]

1: just increasing pachy’s blood pool won’t help it fight other targets of similar size in the future.
2:Pachy MUST be able to fight utahs because it has no choice other than to fight them. If the utah runs off after the first hit, then fine. But if it doesn’t… then pachy lacks the damage to finish the fight in some scenarios. Plus, pachy also has to kill to survive when the predator doesn’t leave until it dies.
3:I included those extra hits in my numbers. It takes 5 rams or 8 alt attacks to kill a utah. If you hit 3 alts or an alt into a ram, you deal 180 or 160 damage respectively, which is just over 1/3 of utahs hp. Now if you hit the tail a few times, then it takes 4 knockdowns.
4: all I’m saying to buff pachy’s damage is to make alt deal like 75-80 or make the downward headslam a move that deals like 150-(maybe)200 but no fractures and only works on knocked down targets. That way it takes 2 knockdowns to kill utah if you don’t go for fractures. That way you have 2 options: fracture and hope the utah back off, or go straight for damage and force it off.

[alpine plover]

Reducing performance, yet able to mitigate that through sandbox items

[golden coral]

I'm pretty sure most people would dislike infections and diseases, but generally, what I'd like to see is time spent vunerable. Because that's also part of hunting, finding the weak prey for easier targets. But so far, I'd say it's rare to find anyone being noticably vunerable, aside from thirdpartying an ongoing fight.

[alpine plover]

Right, well an encounter has to have risks for both parties, even for the term after. Relatively because healing in a bush completely negates the consequence after

[winter iris]

Come on, you would like pachy to be as powerful as a carno but more agile. If you get caught up by a pack of utahs you just need to accept that you’ll probably die. Considering that most of the times you die as carno to utahs now, I think it’s absolutely ok if also a pachy dies to utahs

[winter iris]

I think not even carno ram delivers 200 damage

[golden coral]

Maybe if locked health was both more severe, and maybe recoverable only via eating something (we do have salt ingame, so.. for now?). Thus, if you fight a lot, you'd at some point be running at a third of your health at max (and blood maybe too), and now you'd have to go out to one of these deposits and recover (good luck with that without someone waiting there to jump you). But then of course you might get the issue of someone just whittling someone else down just to get them killed, ala old legacy bleed kamikaze style and similar?

[alpine plover]

There could be infection/disease severity too
It develops through time, not killing you ofc(arguable) but also able to deal with it through materials searched through the map

[golden coral]

You mean it's not a good thing that I survived an encounter with two deinos on my stego with a sliver of my health and not much more blood, and I could just sit in the bush and recover for the next 20 min just fine (no need to worry about starving or dehydrating because I rarely have less than half so it was all good)? :p

[alpine plover]

Yes, exactly. Kind of silly you can regen in a fight like in Apex Legends really

The game could use more maintenance mechanics
Regularly bathing, eating medicines/herbs, treating wounds, interacting with the environment

[hasty coyote]

1:I understand dying to a pack, even a 1v2 is very difficult, but pachy should have the advantage, not instant win, in a fight.
2: I think you overestimate these numbers. I said 200 has a “maybe” because that would be VERY strong. However, headslam is also nothing like carno bite: it takes longer to use, can only be done on knocked down targets, and basically stuns pachy for 2 seconds total, making it very open to counter attack.
Also, each these changes only give pachy a 30 damage increase on knockdown. The 2 extra alt swings deal 120 normally. Two 75 damage alt swings would deal 150 damage, and so would the 150 headslam. So if it was the bare minimum, it would still take 3 knockdowns to kill.

[hasty coyote]

Also carno ram does 300, that’s why a headshot deals 450 and 1-shots a utah

[winter iris]

Ram for carno, though, consumes a lot more stamina and is very easily dodged. Additionally it could expose you to damage if ramming a pack of two because carno takes a lot of time to stop and turn after a ram. Honestly, considering the size of pachy i am more than convinced that the numbers you summarised are more than enough for its damage, and that the increases you proposed would simply make pachy the best hunter in the game (a bit like in update 4 in which people played pachy just to hunt down and kill everything)

[winter iris]

To clarify my point, I think what you’re suggesting can’t be done without changing stats for almost every other playable. It’s not that it can’t be done in general, but just increasing pachy and leaving everything else as it is now would cause balance problems elsewhere. So a slight rework of every playable would be needed

[somber sphinx]

@winter iris press W when resting, it wil make the animal you are playing get up quicker but it costs stam and you can’t to this while being knocked down btw

[winter iris]

Yes I know this, but my point is that for Utah the animation is very long for no reason. I play other dinos as well, and Utah is really slow in the animation

[wraith relic]

dang it wrong channel

[grand cargo]

@primal harbor

#balance-feedback message

I see what your saying I agree however, it is like this because it is a apex, and when a Spino, Trex, Giga, ect comes out it will have a challenge. So for the time being it will remain like this. However, I do wish they would nerf it so it is good for other Dino’s to attack instead of being over powered. It would stay nerfed until the first carni apex.

[primal harbor]

just because it is an apex it doesn't mean you should make its juvi gameplay not fun

[golden coral]

And lacking the possiblity of making the juvie gameplay all that fun, maybe change up how growth works for the playable

[primal harbor]

precisely

something that I hope the isle eventually does which they have been better about since legacy but it would be much better to get into it more so is making the juvi versions of dinos have a different niche rather than being a shitty smaller version of the adult

and Stego is kinda under that plague most of all where the entire time it feels like a worse version of the adult and is not viable in any situation

[golden coral]

Well yes, the only really good juvie for that is rex, of the apexes I think. Spino and cheirus might have something, what with their semiaquatic style. But for giga, trike, stego, anky(?), acro(?), and maybe even deino, what are they supposed to do really. Sure maybe small stegos could run bipedally but, well, that doesn't do that much I don't think.

Alternative might be to make growth for those playables pass through juvie much faster, and keep them at substage for the majority of their time, where they might be sufficiently powerful and independent, but still vunerable to things more often than not.

[neon willow]

I disagree. Deino in evrima actually is a pretty good example of what @primal harbor is suggesting.

Juvi deinos play significantly different from the adults. Sure, they can sit in water like the adults and just be a shitty smaller version of the adult, BUT they're also a lot more independent of the water until they hit 50-70%. They move much faster with better stamina economy on land, with the result being that I think baby croc actually occupies a different niche effectively as a land deino/ambusher from the heavily aquatic dependent adults

But stego babies need help. It's miserable growing them because they're still designed to play the same way as the adults, but with health and damage so severely nerfed that they just can't survive unless nobody sees them until 70% grown, or unless someone takes pity on them and protects them

They're slower than the adults, and have a lot less health and damage. They do have more stam but because of everything else it just doesn't compensate enough

[winter iris]

Why all the people (mainly playing utah) were complaining always about carno bite hitbox in update 4.5 (which was a bit big, but honestly there are identical things for other dinos), and the same people are silent on how physically non sense pounce currently is? Seriously, I play both Utah and carno, but when I play Utah all players still complain about carno, when I play carno player are generally not (and carno currently is quite difficult to play compared to utah which is extremely easy)

[golden coral]

I am aware that baby deinos, at least compared to stegos, are much more fun and capable. I'm not certain on what you actually ambush on land(?), you're not big enough to grab most things even at 50% I don't think. I've seen plenty smaller deinos be up and about, but I'm not sure they achieve much except having fun and being a nuisance and all that. But it's certainly more fun than being a stego, of that there is no doubt.

[neon willow]

A lot of people complain vocally about Utah pounce though

[golden coral]

Though I'm fine with giving most juvies a different niche and more fun abilities, but I also don't think they all need it, the issue isn't neccesarily being a smaller adult in gameplay, baby utahs do fine after all, but for those smaller adults where they are uselsss since they require the power and health and so on that the adult has to work out.

[neon willow]

You can snatch adult Utah's at about 30% (and have the acceleration to catch one if you can surprise it). Around 50% you can also grab sub tenos/carnos. Around 60% I think is when you can grab adult carnos and drag them all the way back to water

I don't have the exact numbers unfortunately, sorry! Haven't grown a deino in a while

[golden coral]

I think you're pretty on point, seems to match up with what I remember.

[neon willow]

Yeah agreed on that. Most juvis do okay on survivability-- it's particularly stego that's really struggling atm

[golden coral]

Mostly because it does not have the speed to run or the ability to hide, and it relies on power to fight. But that's less of giving extra niche and more an issue of how to make it viable. Which could be solved by changing how the growth works possibly. And I think said growth change could fit deino too, and still let it keep extra land ability, maybe for longer at that.

[neon willow]

Yeah I think so too

[azure crescent]

You'd be surprised. While growing deino, i killed a total of 6 juvie stegos, like 2 small tenos, and 1 juvie carno that was getting stam

40% deino is faster than a lot of juvies

[tropic birch]

I'm not sure if this is a current issue. But can the growing phase change but the time keep the same? Trying to say I come across most other players are only one of two things. Brand new growing dino or fully 100% grown. Could be bc the old hide and grow in a bush meta. But how can we increase seeing/interactions witth more non fully grown adult(s) dinos. Or if said Dino sticks to a particular envirment. Like Carnos and Utahs growing faster in open areas compared to beaches or thick jungles.

Just not sure if this was already plan to be adjusted or been cover by other features to do so.

[hasty coyote]

Generally the devs are planning on making juvie gameplay more fun and stopping the bush meta. However, trying to stop an issue like this is complicated, so its probably going to take a while to fully end it.

The migration system does look promising though. But we will have to see how it ends up.

[azure crescent]

They're going to add a sub-biome that is basically a safe haven for juveniles

and will apparently possibly harm large animals that try to get in?

[marsh marsh]

At least they are planning to do that which I hope is really true

[hasty coyote]

Devs have said multiple times that they want to end the bush camping, and as duder said, they are making a biome specifically for juvies and smalls.

The main issue is that surviving when there’s hordes of adults that will kill you is really hard, surviving in a bush is really easy.

[marsh marsh]

for me juvi gameplay is just plain boring except maybe deino but still

[glacial kraken]

tbh to fix pounce

just make bucking start taking away stam instantly

it'd help stop the spam

[neon willow]

Honestly buck would work a lot better if the bucking dino didn't burn through Stam at the same speed as they Utah they are bucking, and if the amount of stam drain of the Utah was proportional to its weight

I don't think you'd need to have it removing Stam instantly to be effective. Just atm, it's almost better to allow the pounce or go to a tree than use the provided mechanic to counter pounce, which is kind of crazy lol

[marsh marsh]

Exactly 🤣🤣

[ocean sentinel]

Bucking itself seems like a pretty undercooked mechanic, its just holding e to drain the stamina of the Utah latching onto you, and sacrificing some stamina in return.

Maybe they could add periodic precision quick time events to bucking and have it drain the Utah's stamina based on how well you do.

Just an idea, probably not the best, but I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard to implement

Ping might be an issue though

[glacial kraken]

it doesnt burn through stam at the same pace btw

i tried it with someone, he was pachy i was a utah, he lost about 10% stam by the time i used all mine whilst i was bucking

so you only lose about 1/10 the stam compared to a utah (as a pachy atleast)

not sure about the rest

i think if they made pounce cost a bit more stam it might help though, people are spamming it too much imo

this is coming from someone who likes to play utah lmfao

[marsh marsh]

Damn the utah/omni mains downvoting my feedback cuz they're scared they'll need to get skill to play them if there will be a balanced adjustment
Lol no one said nerf them to the ground and I have no problem with utahs/omnis being strong in a pack afterall its their strength attacking as a group but rn they're overtuned with how pounce is to easy to pull off with half a brain cell
I mean played Utah myself felt too easy and not rewarding so I moved on to different games for now
No offense but maybe some people downvoting not only this post also other should first play the game more with other playables than just their main
Theres one trick ponys in everygame and yeah play what you want no problem but consider other aspects and playables too and think about the future of your beloved game

[marsh marsh]

Also I am not salty its just dissapointing
I moved on from isle for now and I think thats okay I will likely return
I guess some others feel that way too and not everyone will speak up and be loud about things they dont like so maybe quite few stopped playing cuz of reasons be or not be omnis stegos etc. I just feel it would be best for the community to get things to be fun and balanced so that in the future it will be great game and a great community for everone to enjoy and come back to
Also sorry if my english is not that good I'd like to phrase things more clearly and such its just not that easy for me my apologies

[urban birch]

💀

[stark knoll]

Stop trying to belittle and insult people who disagree with you. This isn't the first time you've done this.

Handwaving all negative reactions as "salty X mains" isn't constructive and doesn't belong in a discussion environment

[dusky surge]

also people were probably downvoting your feedback because it was extremely vague

[neon willow]

Yeah... Not everyone who downvotes a suggestion is a salty X main. I don't main anything, and play pretty balanced amounts of everything except hypsi, dryo, and ptera.

That being said... Your feedback isn't all that constructive. You don't really describe how Utah should be adjusted, nor to what degree you want it adjusted. So... It kinda allows people to interpret your suggestion however they want

Like, what makes the pounce abusable? Is it Stam? Hit box? Bucking? Damage?

What aspect of the mechanic needs to be changed?

Specifying would better allow players to understand your feedback and determine if they agree with it or not

[marsh marsh]

Well I am not dev how am I supposed to know its not my job
Its my opinion that omi is op and unfair rn why am I not allowed to say that
To me it seemed everyone knows about the balance issue with omni I just wanted to point it out again so things get recognized more
And to what degree is dependant on the devs

[marsh marsh]

What makes the pounce abusable is that theres no risk to it when pouncing in face or tail because of side teleport also bucking seems to do nothing

[marsh marsh]

But tbh I wont bother I take a break of the a game and come back if things get better all around so yeah cya

[neon willow]

You are allowed to say Omni is op and unfair. But as with all balancing posts, there will be people that think the opposite. Besides, being able to describe why your opinion is what it is (in this case, as you did in reply to my second question) is crucial to enabling other people to understand your opinion and in allowing devs to understand the effects of their balance decisions

In any case, I don't really see people downvoting feedback that the Utah/Omni pouncing a carno face or teno/stego tail and getting teleported past their attack radius is pretty unfair to the carno/teno/stego

Same with bucking being ineffective. A lot of people agree about both of these points, and saying that in your original post would've likely gotten less downvotes

[slim dragon]

Some people genuinely want to keep the teleporting pounce (or allow to pounce the head for more damage)

[neon willow]

That's fair. That being said usually they also want other things as well (buck/missing being a lot more punishing is common for people who want to allow teleporting pounce, and usually headshot = more damage folks also would be okay with basic pounce doing less damage, thus encouraging more skillful playing/aiming)

[spring dagger]

Pounce is too easy to land atm for the damage that it actually does, being able to kill a pachy in 1 pounce and a carno in 2 pounces completely invalidates it's niche as it's a pack hunter, whats the point of forming packs if you can just do just as well with two or three, without the chaotic nature that comes from big groups?, theres a straight up advantage to maintaining a smaller group of 3 - 4 compared to 6 - 7 which goes against the design philosophy

I'd like to see a reversion to the old missed pounce animation, which incentivised actually approaching at an angle you could land on instead of spamming the pounce and landing it eventually.

Face pouncing needs to go. It's too strong and we already had something in the works way back before evrima release where utah/omni was shown to be killed if it attempted a frontal pounce or whatever. Makes no sense how magic pouncing onto someones side works in this game.

[neon willow]

Thanks for proving my point lol

But yeah I agree. Utah should want to form packs and harry their prey to death. That being said.... There is a balance to be struck. Solo Utah's need to still be viable if someone can't find a pack (note that viable does not mean being able to solo kill an animal 3+x their weight or even really considering standing and solo fighting as an option for anything larger than itself). On the opposite end of the scale, you also have to have diminishing returns of larger groups to prevent megapacking

[spring dagger]

MBMB, i just glossed through and noticed utah pounce talk

[neon willow]

Nah you're good 🙂 my point was that a lot of people agreed with pizza that Utah atm is OP, but that he got as many negative reactions as he did because he was extremely vague about what needed to change

Utah pounce bad is not particularly actionable

As soon as we went into specifics, suddenly people are engaging with it

[spring dagger]

Ye, i mean i'd like there to be like a parry mechanic for certain attacks

For example, pachy v carno, theres a slim window where a pachy can outplay a carno and parry it's charge or something.

Same thing with utah v carno, utah v pachy etc

or atleast an expansion on that mechanic because i've never ever seen it

[neon willow]

Absolutely. I'd like bucking to be more effective for one (it uses a lot of stam for one Utah, and they usually cruise in packs), baby bleed to be nerfed so that death actually knocks people from fights

I don't think there's a specific parry mechanic for a carno charging a Utah...

But yeah more of mechanics like "carno charge countered by pachy bonk breaks both" would be nice

Really part of it is just reordering pounce priority so that it takes lower priority than most other attacks would help

And then maybe so that if you take damage while pouncing, it removes your momentum (almost like a stun but without preventing movement thereafter) and cancels the pounce

[hasty coyote]

Those numbers are off, unless you mean unbucked pounce

[neon willow]

It would result in Utah needing to really manuever for that high risk high reward pounce

[spring dagger]

Unbucked pounce yeah.

Partly because bucking is a death sentence most of the time or it never works for me

[hasty coyote]

You should buck 95% of the time, it drains the Utah’s stam at a higher rate. Plus you lose stamina whether you buck or not.

That 5% is if you can scrape them off instantly

[spring dagger]

I mean i hold E and it just doesnt work half the time i do it; im left stood there like an idiot so i just use terrain most of the time

its easier and conserves stamina

[hasty coyote]

That sounds like a control issue then, have you tried the “delete save file” trick?

[spring dagger]

I've not

[hasty coyote]

Sorry for late reply, had to do stuff:

If you are experiencing issues with your controls since the latest update (can't move camera, unable to court, etc) then please try wiping your config files in localappdata.

1. If running The Isle, exit the game.
2. Open File Explorer.
3. Click the address bar at the top.
4. Type %localappdata% then press Enter.
5. Find "TheIsle" folder. Open it.
6. Open the "Saved" folder.
7. Delete the "Config" folder. Note: This will reset any of your custom settings to their defaults.
8. Restart the game. The issues should be fixed.

[winter iris]

Solo utah is currently quite easy to play, you can survive for days literally as solo Utah. Killing smaller preys is incredibly easy thanks to the combination between speed and agility, pounce and decent bite do the rest of the job

[fickle cliff]

Bleed is borderline too much.

[neon willow]

Yes, it's currently easy and needs adjusting. But we have to be careful not to over do corrections, or we will run into the opposite problem where solo Utah's are ineffective even against smaller prey like hypsi, dryo, pt, etc. I'd even argue a Utah should have a decent chance to win against a solo pachy (being similar weight classes, though, ideally this fight should be 50/50 and dependent on skill to win).

That being said, a solo Utah should be running from carno, teno, stego. Utahs that want the larger prey should be heavily encouraged to pack up

[tall bronze]

I prefer the idea of Utah vs Pachy being more Pachy sided on average with the both of them having to be very careful. One wrong move and

[unique oxide]

I think in a 1 v 1 the pachy should probably come out on top because Utah is a pack Hunter. The more utahs the less chance their prey has.

[keen plover]

Imo, the fight should not be 50/50 for pachy and utah. Pachy is slower and needs to deal with raptors. It was touted as 'anti-utah' in development. I think we should move past the 50/50 way of doing things. Some prey raptors should actually hunt in pairs (even if they're similar sized). Imo, if a raptor doesn't really ambush a pachy with pounce, it shouldn't even think of hunting one. The best way of doing that is by making pachy have a lot more damage to a few of its attacks. Alt swing at 70n, while charge should be 120-130n.

So if you do mess up the ambush, you should ideally avoid the pachy (unless they're bad of course).

[neon willow]

I think you misunderstood. 50/50 isn't talking about damage or stam or anything, but the chances of winning a fight. Pachy is slower, yes. But it should still have a good chance to win against utah in a 1v1 encounter (Utah also needs a fair chance though). Pachys though can also group up to 8, so honestly? They should be packing up too if they want to survive a Utah pack encounter.

I'd be okay with buffing pachy a bit, as currently it does feel like it's a little lopsided towards the Utah in a 1v1 encounter. But gotta be careful because pachys in packs (packys, if you will lol) scale up in difficulty with each additional pack member much faster than any other playable

[keen plover]

Yeah, I know what you meant by 50/50. It should not be a 50/50 at all imo. It should be more pachy sided in a brawl. While raptors should actually ambush and use tactics to secure the kill. Also, pachys scale up as well as tenos and carnos with each additional member. Most combat capable playables do. Nerfing pachy damage was worse for the playable.

I remember one Stress test build where it had higher damage and it was capable of defending really, really well against a raptor. If it was a brawl, pachy was guaranteed the win vs equal skilled players. Now, it's more even. Which makes no sense to me personally. Now Pachy players are less common when compared with update 4/4.5.

[neon willow]

again, i don't think we're on the same page. utah's whole style of fighting is completely counter to a brawl. In a pure damage vs damage slugfest, pachy should win no contest. But a utah playing like a utah (harrying, wearing down, NOT trading blow for blow) and pachy playing like a pachy should be roughly even. imo though, the scaling up of pachys vs something like tenos is completely different. 4 tenos you need to be careful about fighting. 4 pachys? I turn around and head the other way. if they're remotely decent, 2-3 can hit you at one time if any score a knockdown. It just is not worth it

[keen plover]

It's only roughly even because they greatly reduced pachy damage. 140n > 100n charge. Also, pachy alt attack being weaker than a raptor bite. Pachy will more than likely get a buff in damage. Whenever that happens, the matchup isn't even anymore. Which is a good thing.

Also, 4 tenos or 4 pachys, you end up losing to both if they know what they're doing. Depends on the species as well. As a carno, the tenos can bleed you out with a few kicks

[golden coral]

Carnos and pachies scale way better than tenos in groups I'd say. Omni is probably closer to carno and pachy than teno at that.

Consider the charge and ram, both attacks that require either an ambush, or distraction. The second is far easier to achieve in a group. Tenos meanwhile, are closer to stegos, they gain advantages in groups, but it's not as much or as "useful" in a sense.

[thin mantle]

It’s mainly because teno’s attacks make it stop moving as well as their AOE, it’s incredibly difficult to position 2 tenos to be effective against the same target, so you end up breaking off from eachother and waiting for one teno to stun something so you can beat it to death together, which again doesn’t really work because of how short that stun timer is, so it’s back to being “together but separate” just trying to dilute the numbers you’re being faced with down to something more manageable, which against a competent group of 2 or more that focuses one of the tenos….is never an issue

[loud herald]

pachy is harder to grow due to dietary requirements. its also slower and arguably harder to play since it has far more room for error and a much harder to land a powerful attack than it is for dinos that just run at you and bite you.

i think a buff would be well deserved. increased blood pool and letting the pachy hold up its headbut charge infinitely but past a certain duration it starts to very slowly drain stamina (it has to hold up its body in a weird position so it should drain stam)

[spring dagger]

Pachy doesn't really need any changes imo, aside from its bleed pool needs a increase. Pachy does alot of damage consistently and it shouldn't be able to square up to anything bigger than a utah, the emphasis should be instead that pachy can fracture these bigger animals and get away (which it can with exception to deino)

You can still reliably fight a utah, it's just it's utah favoured because of the bleed pool, the damage is fine as it is

[loud herald]

shouldnt reliably be able to kill other dinos alone, i agree. BUT it should be more than capable of deterring other predators that are larger by injuring them making them a less than ideal target

so buffing them in the stamina department wouldnt really help them kill things, itd just help them defend themselves

[spring dagger]

It does that already though

[loud herald]

its inconsistent to say the least

[spring dagger]

Since the body fracture changes, pachy is more than capable of breaking and running

[loud herald]

and so often i charge a headbut and it doesnt follow through

it just cancels right as i attack

[spring dagger]

There are inconsistent hitboxes yeah

[loud herald]

i think letting them hold the headbut for longer would help with it is why i suggested it

[spring dagger]

I mean changing the hit boxes helps too

But I like your idea of perma holding in a defensive stance

[loud herald]

it doesnt really make them much stronger it just helps the dino feel better to use

[loud herald]

thats what im shooting for

cause why wouldnt it be able to do that

[spring dagger]

I agree with you but changes to its stats with exception to its bleed pool are completely unnecessary

Its fine where it is in that department

[loud herald]

also a way to cancel a charged up headbut

yeah i never suggested any more than blood buff

it doesnt need it. its pretty tanky for its size

cause damage reduction to head and tail

[spring dagger]

Ye

I mean I'm a little off on cancelling head butt attacks unless there was a slight delay before you can charge again

Cause tap charge still exists and its still painfully easy to land most of the time

It's just it doesn't break carno anymore which is fine

[loud herald]

thats fine, i just hate being unable to cancel the charge

[loud herald]

it doesnt? i thought it still does

[spring dagger]

Nope

You have to charge it for atleast a second

[loud herald]

makes sense thats kinda lame

[spring dagger]

Yeah I remember release pachy and it was stupidly strong

It was borderline OP

[loud herald]

cant you still just headbut stun with right click then charge up a headbut and fracture

[spring dagger]

Nope

Thank god honestly

Stunlocking still semi works but the timing has to be perfect

[unborn iris]

Look down and let go of RMB to cancel it.

[dusky surge]

i disagree with buffing the blood pool, at least personally. I'd much rather it have better tools to beat the hell out of an attacker, rather than endure its attacks

[hasty coyote]

plus, my only issue with buffing blood pool is that it make is better specifically against bleeders, but still suffer against small tiers with different strategies. Like a bleed buff wont make pachy able to deal with dilo. however, a damage buff on a move used specifically on small tiers keeps its break and run against larger threats, but its still able to fight things of a similar size range.

[spring dagger]

I would like to see dinosaurs have more of an expansion to their toolkits with exception to deino since that thing is already in a good spot in terms of combat design. I think limiting your attacks to two viable and one situational ALT attack moves when instead every dino could potentially have tenonto-esque variation when it comes to attacks is producing diminishing returns for the games combat to an extent.

For example: Utah could have an attack where when pounced, it can use ALT + RMB to have an attack for a sharp dig in with it's claws producing alot more bleed at the cost of more stamina, or a dismount where it sacrifices alot more stamina to jump off it's pounced target having a guaranteed safety net.

[calm ibex]

more complex combat is more difficult to balance, whilst in short term it may be a good idea, once you reach that 50+ playables it becomes a hurdle IMO

[spring dagger]

True but alot of those playables are just dogwater.

Like when more playables come out, what do you think something like troodon or minmi or compy is gonna do?

They're just gonna be overshadowed and outclassed and people will gravitate to the most powerful animal because thats just how the playerbase works.

[calm ibex]

TBH i'm not expecting these playables to see large scale popularity long term due to one of the core design issues the game has, Which is that some playables are just better than others

But it does not mean that its worthless to try make them relevant mind you

[spring dagger]

Yeah, but at the same time what can you do to even make them relevant when the advantages for one playable are so significant that theres literally no point in playing the other playable?

Like again, troodon for all intents and purposes sounds cool at this current moment in time but it is just an inferior utah with venom.

[calm ibex]

I do think its a design flaw yes

[spring dagger]

So getting rid of the majority of these playables for varied combat mechanics instead of having playables been given every single niche to contend and compete (Minmi and Mega) in order to remain viable is better for the game here.

[calm ibex]

Larger playables are on average easier to play since you have pure stats to carry you, so "skill" becomes less and less important

[spring dagger]

Thats true, but small playables in order to actually be worth their salt need some sort of niche in order to compete, and when the big bad thing thats bigger than you can do your niche but better and do so much more, thats the problem here. Thats why i favour more expansion to combat dynamics over inflating the roster because alot of these dinos being added might very well play the same as their contemporaries

You've already said this pretty much but idk man, im just a fan of expansion of combat to not make combat feel the same for everything like it currently does somewhat.

[winter iris]

well, with this rationale also carno had movements heavily nerfed and in fact it's not particularly fun to have fights right now as carno. But I didn't hear anyone complaining about that. Anyway, I think that pachy blood pool needs to be increased, as well carno's for example, particularly in relation to how OP pounce currently is. A change in pachy's stats would require changes in other dinos stats as well to avoid the unbalanc in game becoming a routine (as it currently is: we had carno OP in up.4.5 and we have utah OP now, and probably pachy OP in up. 4)

[loud herald]

just a blood increase wouldnt really make them OP in my opinion

[winter iris]

agreed, blood pool increase would be a good thing

[loud herald]

@analog mirage makes perfect sense. and it is better for balance. utahraptors should have to use teamwork to take down larger prey, not pounce them one by one

[spark pond]

so what you're suggesting is, if 4 Utahs pounce a stego at once the bucking should cost 4 times more stamina?

[loud herald]

no what hes saying is a large dino should use less stamina bucking a utah off its back because they weigh nowhere near the same

like when a deino grabs a small dino its struggling barely uses any stamina of the deino

why is it not the same for being pounced

[analog mirage]

Yeah

[slim dragon]

@vernal mulch If you want to continue talking we should do it in here

[vernal mulch]

https://biomedicalsciences.unimelb.edu.au/departments/department-of-biochemistry-and-pharmacology/engage/avru/blog/are-monitor-lizards-venomous-the-tale-of-toxicofera,-part-4

[slim dragon]

I gave you reasons as to why scientific accuracy isn't relevant for the game

If you're interested in accuracy, there's a game called Saurian that is trying to be pretty accurate

[vernal mulch]

ok, arguing when one says one thing and the other says something completely different is a waste of time

[vernal mulch]

but unfortunately she can't be

[slim dragon]

ell, if you don't have arguments and aren't willing to listen to mine then yes, it is

[vernal mulch]

ex: adult feathered rex

[vernal mulch]

No arguments? It's strange ... I cited articles and quotes from experts when you talk about the interestingness of playing with poison ...

we are just talking about the same topic, but completely different subtopics

so I don't see the point

[slim dragon]

That's not arguments
The only thing you say is "it's not accurate"
I explained to you (or tried to) that the game never was accurate nor realistic, and above everything, IT IS A GAME.
Venom for megalania isn't completely out of the question and at least makes sense since one of its relative, komodo dragon, does indeed have venom.
In a game, hen you make a mechanic like venom, it's better to use it in many situations (so on more creatures) so it's not wasted development time. I think 3 out of 56 creatures being venomous isn't too much, and if you're against mega being venomous, then what would be better as a venomous predator in terms of scientific accuracy AND gameplay ?

You seem to consider The Isle as some sort of documentary or a scientific window to extinct life, while it is nothing such as this. It is a game designed for enjoyment, and as I already said, it's science-fiction.

What bothers me the most is that out of all the inaccuracies The Isle has, you chose to rant over megalania's venom, which isn't even disproven because we have so few remains of it, and no soft tissue at all.

[vernal mulch]

well, you can agree on a compromise about poor blood clotting (in mechanics, make strong stamina costs), since with heavy bleeding, the forces will really leave the animal

[slim dragon]

Bleed already heavily affects stamina in the game

[vernal mulch]

but in fact, fatigue from bleeding is, in principle, logical in our world. it is unlikely that the animal will last long if it bleeds heavily

[slim dragon]

Now I don't get what your point is

[vernal mulch]

if the poison only affects stamina, then there is no question, since these are just real "symptoms" from blood loss

[slim dragon]

Okay but we ould have to see how it plays out in-game
Because if it's just "bleed but it ruins your stamina even more" it's kinda meh

[vernal mulch]

I thought that they would make some kind of super-cunning poison, that even with full HP, having received a poisonous bite, you need to find some kind of antidote or something like that, but if it just reduces stamina, then there are no questions

otherwise you will die (even if full hp)

[slim dragon]

I don't know how it will work
But apparently venom will have its own bar and target's weight and other stats will play heavy roles in how effective it is

[vernal mulch]

well, poisonous troodons will be released in the 6th (next) update

so let's see how they implement poison

I repeat that if the poison only affects stamina, then there are no questions

[stark knoll]

Venom will do different things depending on the species

For example, dilo's venom will cause hallucinations

We cannot be certain what megalania's venom will do based on troodon's

[vernal mulch]

and in general, the effect of heavy bleeding should be the loss of stamina

[slim dragon]

That's already how it is

[stark knoll]

Having a low amount of blood greatly reduces your stamina regeneration in evrima

[vernal mulch]

I didn't know since I haven't had much bleeding yet in evrima

when you are a full deino, then singles bypass, and you keep your distance from groups

in this case, let megalania gain the ability to tear tendons when it hits the legs

and in dinosaurs of 3 tier, tendons are torn only with numerous bite of the legs

[slim dragon]

I wouldn't like a mechanic like that that is specific to megalania and that, honestly, would only work in very specific situations and against very specific targets

[hasty coyote]

So, basically a leg fracture with a different name?

[analog mirage]

I’m so consumed what the argument is now

[old ocean]

Same lmfao

[golden coral]

@neon willow I'd much rather increase the food need than the hunger drain. Require more food to fill up, but last as long, so you have time to do stuff and well, move around, since you still need to make it to swamp every now and then for sumac and stegos are not that fast. The whole "eat constantly" is terrible, I had that experience in progression and it was anything but enjoyable.

[neon willow]

I mean... I'm open to either change, as they both nerf hunger effectively. Though, honestly stego are so slow that unless enemies come to you there isn't a lot to do besides eat anyways

And my thoughts are that while you do need to go to swamp occasionally, I've never really had trouble doing that with the existing hunger, especially if you munch on marigold and other plants in center/SE spawn before you make the trip

It shouldn't be an extreme change, also-- a pair of stego should have no issues staying fed while migrating. But 5 adults should really struggle to meet their food needs

[golden coral]

Shouldn't be more than two adults in the first place. And sure, with existing food and water times it's fine, but your suggestion is to nerf them so? Also, considering how much carnos complain about not having time to do anything but eat, I don't know, doesn't seem like that is a good suggestion for enjoyable gameplay really.

[neon willow]

1. carnivores actually have to have time to chase down, fight, and kill another player, and then time to deal with any body campers, as well as nest as it holds you still to sit on the nest and you can't hunt. Herbivores fundamentally don't have that problem because they can graze anywhere on demand if they mess up, and because diet plants don't run away or try to kill you, PLUS there's a ton of diet plants that no dino uses atm

2. I think last time I went from swamp to center, using the long route (teno fields to center), I lost about 1/2 my hunger on the trip. Thats without stopping to eat on the way because I was trying to make space for marigold. That has plenty of buffer for a bit of a nerf-- there was sumac, ash, squash, mushrooms, potato, radish AND marigold on the route. And those are just the plants that I know spawn there because of playing other dinos

And there are multiple fields of grass on the way as well

So, if they made it so the trip leaves you at maybe 1/3 hunger, or even 1/4 hunger (assuming you don't eat on the way, which is again very easy for herbivores to do) it may be beneficial

And honestly? Higher maintenance requirements is part of balance for higher tier dinos. Deino avoids it simply because it is forced to wait at the water for prey to come to it, as it can't really hunt otherwise unless, again, dinos come to it to try to kill it

[azure crescent]

so literally just the same as a leg fracture, mechanically speaking

[golden coral]

I'm a little uncertain what your argument here is? My point with carno was that people do want downtime to nest, explore, or just sit and chill. Carno for example can not survive the night, or can just barely, if full, from what I know. Not ideal, I don't think at least. As for the grazing point, well, grazing A, gives 20% food at best and B, no nutrient. It's "useless" bar extreme circumstances, and not something you should ever use unless it's that or outright death. Sure, diet plants don't move (yet at least!), but you still need to go all around and get them, which does take time. That there are unused plants, I'm not sure how that's helpful anymore than the "wrong" ai for a carnivore. Sure you can fill up on it, but it still gives you no nutrients and as such, is not something you should pay attention to unless desperate (because nutris are everything, and will be so even more when they are specific stats you boost for your playstyle I would imagine).

Now I do quite agree with higher maintenance, but like I said, that should come down far more to getting all the required food (same way AI challenge should not be about finding them, but getting them. No one likes starving due to "no food" but most can be fine with "I messed up the hunt"). So sure, stegos should struggle, but not because they have to eat more often, but because they need to make sure those particular foods they want are there when they need them (which means keeping other stegos at bay). This would also be easier to do if plants didn't come in "one at a time" style but in clusters, especially for something slow like stego that can't really patrol efficiently, much less run someone else down if they are eating plants way over there. This would also preferably tie into the whole territory playstyle that I'd like to see, vs the migration if you insist on keeping a herd, where you can't just stay in the same place forever due to less food.

[neon willow]

my point is, I have no real problems getting around looking for food, and there's enough hunger left in the tank that imo it could be increased SLIGHTLY without any serious impact to stego. Plus, as I said herbis literally cannot starve because they have grazing as a failsafe, whereas carnos HAVE to hunt constantly because if they don't (even if they kill and eat things that aren't diet!) they will starve to death. I honestly think stegos find it a bit too easy to get food... or at least i have never had any real challenge with it, and i've seen large groups of stegos grouped together, which again implies they dont have any difficulty finding plenty of food. So a nerf would not put them in remotely the same position as carno is.

I agree about getting to all the required food needing to be a challenge, but again that falls back to either 1) forcing competition by nerfing hunger or 2) making food a lot scarcer. right now stegos do not need to fight each other to ensure they get the foods they want when they need them, which is part of the problem. Clustered food would be nice though, but again will not be strongly guarded unless it is a scarce resource, which it currently is not

[dusky surge]

@west sierra
1: Carno is meant to be a burst sprinter, not an endurance hunter, hence the low stam
2: Deino was never meant to be an equal to either stego nor rex, it's an opportunistic small game hunter that attacks animals less than half its size. Also, stego can't KOS if no one comes close enough for it to attack.
3: Utah's bleed damage was never increased, it's the exact same as it's always been, the only change is that the pounce actually works now

also, technically, carno has the same bleed resist stat as every other playable besides deino, the difference is that its standing, walking and trotting bleed multiplier is now higher

[golden coral]

@gaunt trail Deino is no longer meant to be a match for apexes, so the matchup vs stego is fine. If you think stego is a problem, just imagine what a trike or shant or rex will do. You're not an apex hunter/killer, you're a midtier hunter/killer as deino.

[urban birch]

Deino isn’t supposed to kill stegs. The devs has made this clear by moving the diet to the fish diet. They are pushing against that idea and if you wanna be dumb and go for an adult steg that’s on you 😂

[golden coral]

Not to mention that up to 80% or so, a stego can be grabbed. So as long as it doesn't look fully grown, you can probably attack it. And even if the stego happens to be 4.1T, do remember that's 2K less hp for the deino to bite through, and less damage from the tail to take at that.

[bright oasis]

I think it would be neat if hunger drain changed throughout the day. Like evening/night for daytime animals would slow hunger down a little so theres less reason for them to venture out at night unless they didnt fill up first. Then morning/daytime would slow nocturnal animals food drain amounts as they have a harder time hunting without the night as their advantage. Hiding would be a more viable nighttime/daytime option for those who filled up, and those who didnt would have to risk getting caught. It puts more emphasis on survival and fulfilling the animals niche.

Increasing night time to 35 or 40 minutes would work really well then, as then night hunters would have ample time to hunt for food in their niche instead of the 30 we have now. Or make both 45, it's all good with me.

Edit: I only put hunt in my idea, but it could work for both herbs and carnis. As their respective end of active time approaches those who fulfilled their roles could have some down time to chill with their friends or dino families.

[spring dagger]

... or the devs realised that the possibility of the dumb Croc killing anything that isn't a mid tier is not very high so they changed the deino to what it is now.

It's just a bad playable.

[urban birch]

Nah they didn’t want people play croc like it was a Rex so gave them something that keeps them in the water

[ocean sentinel]

Isn't that kinda hard to do that anyway, you're the slowest thing in the game and have the worst sprint endurance, the only way you can catch anything on land is if you catch it by surprise or it comes to you.

And it's quick dehydration rate means it can't stay on land for long, so it's not exactly easy to survive as a terrestrial ambush predator.

[spring dagger]

Which is precisely why it's a bad playable atm. It's a rex locked to water.

[urban birch]

The game would feel dead without it imo. The fear aspect of crossing and drinking is nice imo. And when I’m playing solo chilling on a deino with some music is nice. Just a play style you don’t like ig. I don’t think balance wise it’s bad for the game it keeps ppl on their toes

[spring dagger]

So you dont think having an ability to practically delete other peoples progress in an instant by just holding RMB is unbalanced?

The fear aspect of crossing ties to this one ability alone, not so much the dino itself. Once you're grabbed then theres no counterplay so it's just unbalanced. At the same time, there can't be any counterplay otherwise deino is useless - therefore we end up in a constant loop over what deino can do. This is why it's just a bad playable and is unhealthy for the game.

Theres nothing engaging to it, simply hope and wait something crosses near you and snatch them, the map design had already been catered to the playable twice and look where it got us, a new map is coming granted and i hope to god it's better than the shite we got; otherwise this is the final nail in the coffin for deino in my opinion. At that point it's just unsalvagable.

I dont fear dying to deinos if the system was even and i could outplay them. My only sense of outplaying them is not to interact with them and just use safer routes and safe and shallow drinking spots.

Plus the fearfactor comes purely from the fact you're gonna lose 2 hours of your time in an instant. Hardly a scary thing, just annoying imo.

[urban birch]

I understand where you are coming from in regards to balancing. But Rex will be able to do the same thing in regards to deleting hours of progress with one click. Deino is a jumpscare that’s its purpose. You’re supposed to be scared of loss in this game. That’s just the nature of the game. I agree deino is a boring super chill playable, but I don’t wanna go back to not being scared of waterways. That’s just an opinion and I think we should wait for other semi aquatics before we judge deinos too harshly.

[spring dagger]

If a rex manages to jumpscare you, thats because you're not paying attention. Deino you physically cannot see, or hear whilst it's moving underwater. A Jumpscare with an instant kill delete button is not good for the game at all.

Not being scared of waterways is just something i'd rather than potentially losing my prog to a funny jumpscare animal that does nothing other than that and cant fight anything on it's own two feet, relying upon its ability as a crutch for it's bad design.

Rex and Deino are two very different things here.

[urban birch]

my rex comparison was about the deletion of progress with little to no effort which seems to be what a lot of ppl hate deino for. Death from a deino is avoidable, there are so many safe places to cross and drink. Deino is equipped to fight mid tiers even without the ability. do you think utahs should be removed as well as a pounce can be a hold RMB and dead?

[spring dagger]

No because unlike deino, theres counters to utah. You've missed my point entirely.

You can actually react to rex and make a conscious effort to avoid it, it's big, makes alot of noise and isle players tend to not be too smart so it's avoidable.

Deino, even with the brain power of most isle players is unavoidable, you cant hear it whilst its under water and you cant even see it, you can expect it sure; the counter being to just not interact or potentially interact with it at all as you've said (which still makes it a bad playable since it doesnt actually contribute to the game, yknow; the thing where people are supposed to be interacting with eachother and actually playing a PVP survival "horror" game)

The utah comparison is a horrible one since you can use terrain, knock utahs off or work as a team. Even in team environments if a deino grabs you, you're dead in like 3 seconds.

[urban birch]

the utah comparison isnt horrible because it is the same concept with anything that weighs the same or less than a utah. There is no counterplay you just sit there and die

[spring dagger]

There is counterplay though as i've just said

[urban birch]

none of that counters a utah that is being pinned by another utah. The utah cant move.

[spring dagger]

Thats just unfortunate, but you shouldn't really be fighting other utahs as a utah anyway

[urban birch]

the only way to avoid a pounce from a utah as a utah is to not interact with utahs. much like how the away to avoid being drowned by a deino is to avoid unsafe water ways

[spring dagger]

Or be in a group, but why you would want to go against your play style and actively hunt utahs is beyond me.

That way if they pounce you, just get one of your group to head bite them, this is still an issue but its by no means as egregious as deino.

sorry im in a marauders game atm, hard to type and play

[urban birch]

no one said i was the one hunting. im just presenting the idea lol

and no worries ur not obligated to reply despite ur user

[spring dagger]

Yeye, i meant more in a general sense

[urban birch]

i think if they added some sort off struggle mechanic all the worrries would resolve

[loud herald]

well the issue is you cant just rely on fellow utahs if youre conditioned to avoid them because some assholes randomly decide to kill you with a pin

should be able to wiggle out

[spring dagger]

Yeah the pounce on utah is bad too i agree with you two.

[loud herald]

or not pounce other utahs period

[spring dagger]

I mean there defo needs to be counters for that too but at the same time, deino is still more egregious here

[spring dagger]

They were going to, but apparently its gone out the window

[neon willow]

Both me and @golden coral have been pretty vocal in feedback working out a better deino. The issue isn't necessarily deino itself-- it functions a lot like stego most of the time, with high health/damage but extremely low speed/Stam, making it easier to avoid-- but the lunge ability itself needs a rework.

Both because one shotting is not particularly engaging for deino players, and because being one shot is definitely not engaging for everything else. A counterplay would be nice, or even a rework of the mechanic altogether would help (maybe something like current lunge, but it lasts 2-3 seconds, does no/little damage, and drags whatever grabbed backwards (towards water) before releasing. Then the goal is to pile on damage before they can swim to the shore. OR just providing a way for other dinos to gamble to wiggle free)

[urban birch]

this is a decent idea. i still think its primarily the same idea though. except for maybe teno. carnos dont swim fast enough to get away. utahs are one alt bite to the head. teno is the only one that could maybe get away and as an adult teno this is already the case

[neon willow]

True. Though, tbh part of the issue is the current roster doesn't really cater well to deino. Ideally, deino's preferred diet would be mostly semi aquatics or aquatics, supplemented with anything else that visits.

Right now, that can't be done because teno and deino are the only 2 in game, and teno's diet is so widespread and doesn't really have many spots where they actually need to go near/in the water, despite their swim speed and stam

For example if ash only grew on the islands in swamp, or very close to the water's edge, then something like the mechanics I mentioned might be more fair for deino and prey

[winter iris]

It’s not true. Utah bleed damage has been increased, both by reducing its preys blood pool and reworking pounce. Saying one or the other thing does not really change the outcome. Bleeding now is 100 times more effective than killing by damage. I was able to kill pretty much everything as Utah in this update , and I’m not even that good at Utah

[spring dagger]

Utah much like deino is very much braindead at the moment.

[loud herald]

pretend to attack

then actually attack

hurrdurr run up and pounce

[spring dagger]

Current fracture does alot to carno, even with a body fracture the stamina drain is nuts even in a sustained fight, making sustained fights not last very long. Solo pachies have trouble with carno (as they should) but groups of pachys whilst they're unable to kill a carno outright (they shouldn't be able to) they can weaken it to a point where the carno is forced to retreat allowing them to get away.

I'm hesistant to suggest changes to pachy since i never wanna see pachy return to U4 release pachy

[urban birch]

Pachy just needs a little more blood pool and it’ll be perfect

[dusky surge]

i disagree

i like pachy's low blood pool

A: Because it lines up with its weight and health like the other animal
B: Because pachy isn't really anything that NEEDS it
C: Because pachy has a very active/offence is the best defence kind of playstyle

I think pachy should keep the low blood pool and instead get buffs to its ability to defend itself from utahraptors

buffing pachy in a single matchup against bleeders will only prove it to be helpless against animals like dilo who don't use bleed and instead venom

[spring dagger]

What...?

How does buffing pachy against bleeders make it any less effective against venom?

[dusky surge]

pachy has low damage output and potential against smaller targets (as seen in the current patch)

a dilo will do exactly what a utah does atm and a pachy can't kill it

[spring dagger]

It has a great match-up against utah...?

Aside from it's bleed pool, its perfectly fine in the match-up

[dusky surge]

so many people have disagreed with this afaik

im going based on community consensus here, and people for the longest time have been asking for a way for pachy to better fight back against utah

[spring dagger]

Dilo is also way bigger than a utah. It's likely that whilst pachy can still effectively combat a dilo, it's going to be ineffective alone and will need to band together in groups.

[neon willow]

I mean... To some extent not all dinos will be equally well suited to fight all other dinos. There's going to be dinos that have a bad day against bleeders, dinos that excel at fighting bleeders, dinos who can't take raw damage, dinos who are absolute tanks, dinos that are weak to venom and those that practically ignore venom effects

[dusky surge]

also i just dont agree with increasing bloodpools in general, if everyone but pachy has a consistent blood pool with their health and weight, that's just confusing as hell

[spring dagger]

Dilo is just the same thing as the carno match up only i'd imagine you'd be able to kill it with enough coordination

[dusky surge]

dilo would be much more agile than a carno (not to mention much smaller)

[spring dagger]

Which is an advantage to pachy for sure, if it can knock over a utah and alt it to death, then logically the same premise applies right? only you wont outright kill a dilo in one combo but severely hurt it

of course we dont know how venom plays into the match-up, so thats the deciding factor

[neon willow]

It's just hard right now because the roster is so limited right now, that one weakness feels like it's unbalanced

[spring dagger]

The roster is all competant with exception to stego, dieno, hypsi and dryo

Stego and deino being OP for previously discussed reasons... and Dryo and Hypsi being underutilised because of their glaring weaknesses and problems

Raising the bleed pool for carno and pachy and decreasing the bleed pool for stego is the healthiest direction the game could go rn

[dusky surge]

dryo and hypsi literally aren't done (which frustrates me)

[neon willow]

Yeah... But again stego and deino the problem is the roster is too small to properly balance them, so they feel op. There's no dino in game right now that is particularly suited to hunting either. Sure, stego can kill deino and Utah can kill stego, but that doesn't mean that either are really the best dinos for that job

[dusky surge]

why not just... revert the movement modifiers to bleed on carno, rather than messing with the blood pool

[spring dagger]

Because that accomplishes nothing

[neon willow]

And dryo and hypsi are underpowered because they're missing vital chunks of their survival mechanics mostly

[dusky surge]

it does

[spring dagger]

It's still the same thing of 1 or 2 pounces and you die

[dusky surge]

it means it bleeds out slower

which is what you want accomplished

[spring dagger]

Oh wait i see what you're saying

Sorry, its 1AM, i misread

[neon willow]

You don't die in 1-2 pounces if you stand still. So reducing the walking/running bleed multipliers might actually help

[dusky surge]

the modifiers were an okay idea, but honestly, along with fixing utah, it was doomed to disaster

i would've nerfed carno's bleed output instead tbh

[spring dagger]

Why?

[dusky surge]

no real need for it to be bleeding things out

it's a brute force animal that kills fast

not a methodical tracker animal

its stamina and attacks align with this idea

[spring dagger]

I always viewed it as a glass cannon assassin that can brute force small tiers but for mid-tiers can use hit and run tactics to wittle them down

[dusky surge]

potentially, but even then, carno probably isnt doing that using its bleed

its going to be whittling down your health

[spring dagger]

I mean i dont think carno needs changing, i really just like it as it is

Aside from increasing it's bleed pool and a slight increase to it's stamina and remove its stupid hunger drain

[dusky surge]

fair, but i do think the bleed stuff needs reverting

carno already bleeds out fast because it's a sprinter animal

no need to also bleed it out when it's standing, walking and trotting

[spring dagger]

idk man.

Still think the bleed pool needs changing, its ridiculous to be killed by a utah pair

[neon willow]

Yeah I've never been killed by a carno via bleed. Especially because blood pool and health are the same size, and you do a lot more damage than bleed for carno

[neon willow]

Honestly if they revert the bleed multipliers, and give it a slightly slower hunger drain that would do a lot. I don't think it's Stam needs a buff because 1) it's a sprinter/ambusher that should be doing a ton of damage up front, not trying to prolong a fight, and 2) fixing the multipliers would mean it bleeds out slower when going fast as intended, which in turn means Stam recovery doesn't quickly go to garbage. Because remember bleed affects Stam too

There's also a lot to be said for skill-- atm I think the Utah/carno balance is off because Utah is too easy to play competently and carno is pretty hard to play competently. Revising Utah pounce would help a lot with evening it out.

What I mean by skill is: I know a friend who loves to play carno, and as a result they're really good at it, and can solo 3 Utah's and kill them all unless the Utah's are very good and very coordinated. He might die in the process, but he'll win. 2v1 he will win and live regularly

[analog mirage]

I play Carno a lot and normally I’ll be walking and accidentally run into a Utah pack. This is how I usually die but I’ll take out at least 2 adults before I die

There’s only so much one Carno can do which is fine

Balance changes id do rn is give Utah slightly longer pounce recovery (1.5 sec.), give pachy a slight damage buff, and give Carno a little bit more resistance while standing still/walking on the bleed but nothing major

[keen plover]

• I'd nerf the bleed on carnos bite
• Increase the bite force back to 200n
• Revert bleed multiplier changes

and whenever another large land carnivore is added, I'd increase its stamina pool. So there will hopefully be more spread between playables. Thoughts?

[hasty coyote]

I personally don't see much of a need in changing carno's bite or stamina, since those effect EVERY matchup as well. Like those changes could especially screw over pachy, even though they are minor, and that matchup is about as perfect as its ever going to be. Maybe they could work on fracture hitboxes, but those are broken overall.

[keen plover]

I personally do. They should have never nerfed it to 175n. It was unnecessary change imo

Stamina is not for the current carno

I'll continue my point later

[hasty coyote]

The only changes I'd make from what I can see are:

Revert carno bleed nerf, so it stands a better chance against utahs
Make carno's hunger cap to last an hour. So eating something that would last 5 mins currently would still only last 5 mins. However, you can eat more to last 1 hour instead of 45 mins.
Make pachy's alt do 75 or make headslam (the one you use to open cocos) a move that deals 150 damage with no fracture. That way you deal 225 damage with a knockdown and 2-shot utahs, OR you can knockdown into break and 3-shot them. This also doesnt affect pachy's punch up, only its abiliy to brawl in its weight class.
Make tail slam have priority over pachy ram, because currently a pachy can ram and fracture through a tail slam and be fine.

Then I'd see how those minor changes go and alter from there. Maybe increase missed pounce delay if utah is still too brutal, maybe increase pachy damage if its still strugging specifically, etc, etc

[analog mirage]

Carno doesn’t need a bigger bite, but I’d agree once we have more spread our playables id be fine giving Carno a bit more stamina

[winter iris]

Carno bite is currently not working well. More than half of the bites that are actually on target do not get delivered. So yeah, probably doesn’t need a bigger bite, but it’d be nice if it had a bite that worked

[calm ibex]

^ airbites got removed
bite works exactly how it should work rn

[marsh marsh]

Source?:o

[winter iris]

I don’t even know what an air bite is. I just know (and majority of people who also play carno know this) that carno bite doesn’t work well, and that’s just a fact. I also play Utah a lot, and there’s not a single time that when on target, utah bite isn’t delivered….so yes, there’s a problem with carno bite. Not for how small or big it is, it’s just not working well for some reason that I don’t know. Also the ram, a good 30% of the times doesn’t actually work (I.e. does not inflict knock downs and damage) even if it is 100% on target

[marsh marsh]

Agreed

[calm ibex]

its same as legacy rex bite, having your bite exceed further than the animation implies,
For example you could land bites on tenos without risking of getting hit by tail attacks before fix

[marsh marsh]

Where do you take your information from

[calm ibex]

by playing the game lmao

you'd know this too if you played it

[marsh marsh]

Not valid thanks

[winter iris]

Which is good stuff, but I am talking about a different problem which many people identified “by playing the game” as well

[calm ibex]

go and scroll back on feedback channels and you find posts about it

or go and watch someone play the game during those past patches to find material

[winter iris]

Yea I know the problem and it’s good it has been fixed

[marsh marsh]

See more than enough people feel like carnos bite dont connect well this patch so if you dont have a solid source I wont believe it

[winter iris]

Tbh, there are similar problems with other playable as well though

[calm ibex]

i'm indifferent to your believes

[winter iris]

It was actually a problem in previous patches

[marsh marsh]

And thats ok

[winter iris]

The fact is that now it’s not a matter of beliefs or not, the fact that carno bite has got some problems is factual

[marsh marsh]

I just asked for info you cant give it so... I just take it from my experience and other people who said it

[marsh marsh]

For me yeah theres an issue

[calm ibex]

you need to give example of what those issues are, I believe that damage should only apply where animation shows

actually i can give example myself, bites not landing right under hit socket

but i know why that is the case

[winter iris]

Animation shows bites on target, but nothing happens to your opponent. Similarly, but a lot less, happens with the ram

[marsh marsh]

More than enough times I bit in head body and got no damage while there was a hurt sound also we tested on private server so yeah

[marsh marsh]

Exavctly

[calm ibex]

Now if you really want to make a change, go and make video evidence of it, and explain what the issue is and try to come up with ways to solve it

as detailed as possible

[marsh marsh]

I would but uninstalled isle for now because of several issues

[winter iris]

Well, ways to solve the problem are honestly a developers’ task. We can only point out an issue

[calm ibex]

developers are not aware of everything,

[winter iris]

We can give suggestions on balance etc, but when the issue is likely to be due to code or animations there’s nothing we can do really

[calm ibex]

tbh i'm way too lazy to do such things, but others might not be

[winter iris]

Agreed. That’s why many people flagged this issues on balance feedback

Or on mechanical feedback etc

[hasty coyote]

There used to be an issue where carno bite went WAY too far out, I may be able to dig up the video that proves it. However, I have seen carno bite not reach far down enough. So if something is knocked down or small it can be a bit funky to hit it.

[urban birch]

This could be a ping issue. What’s ur average ping?

[neon willow]

Yeah idk about ping but could also be a desync issue-- client shows the dino there so it draws it and plays the animation for a hit, but then the server actually registers the dino elsewhere so it was a miss being sent on the other side

[urban birch]

That too lol

[winter iris]

I have quite good ping, generally between 30 and 55. Btw, it’s not just me but a lot of people that play a lot using carno noticed the same problem

And again, it doesn’t happen when I play Utah so must be related to carno bite

[winter iris]

@zenith surge fractures already heal a lot slower if you don’t rest and tbh a carno with a broken leg is quite an easy target for a pachy

[zenith surge]

Not really. A good carno won’t give a damn about a broken leg and will just run pachy down anyway

[spring dagger]

If you're predictable or in the open, yeah

[old ocean]

@zenith surge aren't they planning on adding slow damage / permanent consequences over time if you dont heal your fracture?

[zenith surge]

Not sure. Maybe

[loud herald]

UNLESS you get a body fracture too

[hallow spire]

@fiery ruin utahs are already squishy as is so imo nah

[primal harbor]

@strange anchor diets is getting redone next update so i am guessing feedback on diets won't really matter atm

[strange anchor]

I hope the new diet system is good... Any info on it?

[primal harbor]

its in the devblogs lemme try to screenshot some stuff for you

[strange anchor]

Aight thanks, 'ppreciate it.

[strange anchor]

Oooh, I wonder how that'll work. Like how you'll "lock" a slot yknow? That's interesting.

[primal harbor]

gore will be a big part of it so I went ahead and put gore

[stark knoll]

Punch talked about it in #isle-discussion not long ago, apparently filling up on a TON of a nutrient will fill up the slots and give you a strong buff in a type of stat, and you can vomit if you want to help clear them

[primal harbor]

there is another thing I am trying to find

[primal harbor]

OH?

[strange anchor]

Oooh, I might try and look for this.

[stark knoll]

#isle-discussion message

That's part of the convo

[primal harbor]

yeah what I learned is that you can choose specific diet slots where with different combos of diet you get different buffs so rather than you getting all the buffs getting a few select things you can get 1 or little buffs from different combinations of food you eat

its really cool from looking at the dev blog

[strange anchor]

Yeah I agree, pretty excited for that and I just learned about it. 💀

[primal harbor]

so rather than getting speedy growth AND bleed resistance it will be speedy growth OR bleed resistance

[stark knoll]

And another snippet from that day

[strange anchor]

So does this mean the overflow will go into the next slot? For example if I'm at 295% and I want to get to 300% but the food gives 6% the next slot is going to be 1% food? Or is it going to wait until I'm at 300% and then the next bite will fill it up.

[stark knoll]

I guess we'll have to see, since the threshold might change too

[stark knoll]

So maybe 300% would be if EVERY slot was filled, or maybe each one is 150%...

[primal harbor]

YES

very glad they are going into that'

[strange anchor]

Ooh I gotcha, that's kinda cool.

[spring dagger]

How would you buff pachy?

[somber sphinx]

More dmg

[unique oxide]

#ai-feedback-discussion message

Moving my discussion here for a wider audience and to not spam the AI feedback group with balance issues.

@neon willow

Don’t you think the seekers should get better at seeking instead of handicapping the hiders even more then they already are?

The migration system is already a handicap on Herbivores. It’s up to carnivores to exploit the movement of herbivores, sitting and camping an area broadcasting and chatting amongst your herd by a herbivores 1 out of 3 food sources just makes them not go there.

Especially because as it stands each diet option has 2 areas on the map to fulfil

[fresh laurel]

So if i may ask

How come pachy sits and gets up so fast

Kinds to the point where speed getup doesnt even feel needed

Like i dont even think i can be punished that much if a enemy does try to do something about it

[neon willow]

The problem is-- especially with night, you can be literally 40 feet from another dinosaur and never know. And that severely hurts carnivores, but especially carnotaurus, because they can literally starve overnight if they don't get at least one kill.

Besides... I don't think telling the hiders they can't spend 30 minutes in the same bush is much of a handicap, especially if herbivores can use the scent system to try to avoid carnivores as well. I think if you are logged into the game, you should actually be playing it, not tabbed out watching YouTube while you grow (which happens a LOT).

And again, scent should get you close/in the area, not be a bull's-eye to the nearest herbivore.

And you can limit it in a few ways too. If you camp an area, your scent will be stronger and be a lot easier to track far away. If you keep moving, then it will be much weaker and hard to track. If you cross rivers or wallow, then your scent completely disappears and after 10 minutes starts to accumulate again. Etc etc

You could even have wind so that you can only smell things in a certain direction

[calm ibex]

inb4 we have like 15 out of 100 server population running laps around the map as herbis, while the rest play carni at X hotspot in an endless meat grinder

[unique oxide]

I mean this is the case, if you could limit the number of carnivores there would be more food to go around. But there is no way to do that.

[unique oxide]

This is why the migration system is needed, I never keep still as a herbi and I am positive there are plenty others.

There’s just so many carnivores and they all are just constantly attacking each other in center

And then you have the odd stego and tenonto group that have fully grown and wander to the center to have a fight

As a young herbi life is easy. Make your way around the map avoid the center and cross your fingers when crossing a lake.

[neon willow]

But migration is optional, the devs have said this. It will not stop people from afk growing in a backwater for stuff like stego

[primal harbor]

@cursive flare they are redoing the entire diet system

[dire ibex]

The Hunger system is just off-the-wall silly in terms of its tuning. The fact that if you play as a Carnotaurus, you have one leg in the grave if you don't eat 6+ A.I during the course one single night is just... Its just bewildering. This goes for most other dinosaurs aswell. Perhaps not quite as extreme, with the Crocodile - you basically need to empty the river off cooldown over and over and over again in order to just not starve to death - much less find a comfortable position for yourself in your habitat. The Herbivores have it SLIGHTLY better - but they're still nonstop foraging. I understand that the tuning is partly because the game is more engaging when you have something you NEED to do - but by gosh.. I think sometimes devs forget that we aren't literally dinosaurs who just look for food constantly - were HUMAN BEINGS playing as dinos. We want to do other things, like explore, patrol our little territory, play around with friends, and so on and so forth - not JUST seek noms. Given the lack of other things to really do in the game atm - the double edged sword is= if we're not hunting, what are we doing? . I get that. Just the way its set up right now is not fun. Food doesn't necessarily need to be more plentiful - but I cannot imagine a universe where it shouldn't be WORTH MORE to us when we finally get that kill, or find that grove full of veggies. I dont know about what most people think - but I would go as far as making hunger drain at HALF the rate it drains now, across the board - just as a START. Its not unplayable - it just gets 'homework boring' after about half an hour with any full grown dino I play because the only thing worth caring about because of how over-tuned hunger depletion is - is mitigating that. Thanks to @unique oxide for giving me the chance to elaborate. I want this game to do well SO BADLY man. I can't even convince people to play with me in this state - even after buying them the game.

[primal harbor]

yeah its because of the overly exponential weights because of the growth

[calm ibex]

I recently played some legacy and found out that there are dinos that have to eat more regularly during growth, why is this still not a thing?
Would it not make sense to make growth more difficult while allowing adult animal to go longer periods without food, less afking for me too

[spring dagger]

Just change back to how growth was in U2.

Literally all they need to do to make this game fun instead of an AFK fest

[winter iris]

How was in U2?

[spring dagger]

You grew 35% every stage, and you actually got strong exponentionally rather than gaining your weight at the last 10%

you were strong as a juvi, subadult and adult depending on what you hunted.

[winter iris]

The real point is, how much more? Because with this tiny roster, it is really easy to mess up balance just by touching one parameter for one playable

[somber sphinx]

As it was before, in u4.5 it was pretty balanced the only problem was that it stun locked whatever it hit

[spring dagger]

that and it's tap charge was ridiculously OP.

tap charge just shouldn't do damage. at all.

[somber sphinx]

Yeah

[spring dagger]

That and it also body fractured a carno in 1 hit as well.

I personally think 2 hits required to fracture is perfectly servicable for balance, you're a herbivore - isolation is death afterall.

[keen plover]

To what though?