balance-feedback-discussion

[twilit juniper]

Mhm

[azure crescent]

i mean partly seperate

they're both still connected to elders

[twilit juniper]

Mhm

Cant wait for perk system ^^' somethings telling me its gonna be similar to BoB's perk system with all the little skills and the skill tree

might break isle, might not if its like that

[azure crescent]

IDK, from what we know its not gonna be the same type of buffs

its not gonna be the "you'll move faster with this perk" type of thing

it's more gonna be like "your dinosaur can now dive, but now has underwater plants in its diet, and is more at risk of deino attacks because of it"

[twilit juniper]

Hopefully yeah

[azure crescent]

devs themselves have used diving teno as an example before iirc

[twilit juniper]

nothing game breaking

[somber sphinx]

Wait really?

[azure crescent]

i believe so

i wish there were perks for specific growth stages, that go away with growth

like "juvie deino can now climb porly"

(yes gators climb)

[somber sphinx]

I really hope they make perks they change how you survive like teno diving or pter gaining more food from live animals and corpses rather than fish to make it more of a scavenger/hunter

[somber sphinx]

Yeah that to and that juvi Utah can climb but when it’s adult it can only scramble up a smal tree

[azure crescent]

ptera grabbing perk

[azure crescent]

what if there was a perk that allowed ptera to be like an eagle, and could eat small stuff alive, like hypsis while pinning them down

[somber sphinx]

Hmm, that sounds interesting

[azure crescent]

idk if it'd benefit survival but i think it would just be cool visually lol

[somber sphinx]

Perks that changes how you survive and changes mechanics and so on im all in for

[dusky surge]

YEEEESSSSS

[azure crescent]

don't quote me on this

i just vaguely remember it happening

[hasty coyote]

I made that suggestion a while ago lol, devs may consider it.

#general-feedback message

[azure crescent]

based

[strange rivet]

you can already one-shot them with an alt-bite, that's quicker than eating them alive, no?

increase carry weight buff tho...would be the dream of many pteras me included. But i fear it would make them even less involved with the rest of the players.

I wonder how gore and diet will change ptera's behavior

[slim dragon]

Yeah I don't see the point of a perk that allows you to eat things alive
Unless it basically allows you to kill something without emptying its health, in which case it's hopefully never gonna happen

[azure crescent]

i meant visually only lol

i know it has no real benefit

[slim dragon]

@verbal meadow full-grown ptera is 45 kg, so a 200 kg utah is over 4x its weight. It pakes perfect sense that the ptera gets pinned in that situation.

[dusky surge]

he was talking about utahs

"Why a 200 kg utah can PIN a full utah??? This is very nonsense"

[slim dragon]

Uh I misread
I just woke up

But maybe it's also because the feedback doesn't make sense, since a 200kg utah can't pin an adult one
Unless things were changed overnight

[keen plover]

A 280kg utah can

Been that way since forever

[slim dragon]

I thought Utah was changed after update 2 to only be able to pin targets lighter than itself

[keen plover]

Nah. In update 4~ and even now (although you gain weight much later) - you can pin an adult utah when you're around that weight

It was roughly 75%~ grown, 280kg in update 4~

[analog mirage]

It’s due to the weight scale changes

I still don’t understand it

[eager ledge]

For some reason I just thought of the term flesh grazing instead of grazing grass you are grazing flesh on a live animal

[dusky surge]

aint no way someone suggested raptor is countered by a DbD skillcheck lmao

[mellow zenith]

Like bucking wasn't already a thing x)

[dusky surge]

bucking isnt a DbD skillcheck, what?

[mellow zenith]

I was just saying that there is already a counter against raptor= bucking. I don't know why a dbd skillcheck has been proposed

[golden coral]

There's no counter to being pinned, which I think the suggestion was about

[dusky surge]

sure, but the DbD skillcheck tho

[slim dragon]

dbd skillchecks are good
For a game like DbD

[dusky surge]

debatable if they're good in any game lmao

[slim dragon]

Your hate for dbd is unjustified

[dusky surge]

i will endlessly despise it

[slim dragon]

I recently bought the dlc wwith Sadako for it and I had the best fun I ever had in that game

Some things are obviously bad in this game, but others are very good and well-thought

[dreamy fiber]

Dbd is fine in the right games, but the Isle is not the right game. Its minimised any and all GUI elements and having a QuickTime event is just out of left field.

There maybe should be a struggle mechanic, but it's not the way to do it

[azure crescent]

what even is DBD

[idle marsh]

Dead by Daylight?

[azure crescent]

ah

[analog mirage]

To be fair, pounce only pins things smaller or same size as Utah. If you are pinned by a Utah you shouldn’t of let it pounce you, if it got a ambush and got you. Good for it don’t make it even harder to kill things

[dreamy fiber]

Lmao that's easy to say but you can't reliably avoid a pounce. If you pounce a utah you're really likely to end up pounced back and even the slightest connection with you will register.

Moreover, pinning something the same weight as you is very difficult. I'm mostly in favour of a struggle feature for those around the same weight.

Imagine pinning another human your size and somehow they're helpless. They're not. You'd get beat just trying to keep them down, even if you manage.

[slim dragon]

Humans aren't 500 kg
Strength isn't exponential, so it's much easier for a 450kg utah to pin another 450 kg utah than for a 70kg human to pin another 70kg human

That's the square cube law

[dreamy fiber]

Not really. Pinning anything your own weight is always hard.
Its probably be harder for something ike a utah given it has deadly weapons on its toes and in is mouth. It isn't even relying on blunt force like we would. They'd maul eachother no matter who was on top lmao

[slim dragon]

You aren't really in a good position to fight when you're on the ground and your opponent is literally stepping on you

If anything pouncing another utah could deal some damage back to the attacker

[dreamy fiber]

It's a worse position for us who use gravity to get more swing to inflict blunt force trauma than when you both have multiple knives. Lol >. >

[slim dragon]

Don't compare everything to humans
In the animal kingdom, in most cases, pinning an opponent is an instant win

[dreamy fiber]

I'm obviously no satin they're on equal footing but most animals don't pin things their own size and when they try it's usually a brutal fight, not an easy win

[slim dragon]

And as I said, most animals aren't 450 kg either

That's why I said the pinned utah should deal some damage back

Getting free of a pin is not a brutal fight, it just doesn't make sense for an animal that size

[dreamy fiber]

Most animals rather than pinning will attack its areas to weaken the opponent for an easier time, I.e strangulation

The utah attacks in a rather strange way due to the way its designed but humans Compare here too, or literally anything. Is only an analogy by something being equal to you. Human. Human, ant v ant, elephant v elephant utah v utah are all raw fights that don't have anything like 'I am same weight so I can pin and win'
This just doesn't exist in the wild against opponents that are relatively evenly matched. The only out to make it easier is something like strangulation where the opponent will quickly struggle to fight back in any meaningful way.

So frankly I don't know why oure disagreeing when you're agreeing at the premise but 'but 450kg tho' even though it's literally a point that's not specific to humans or utahs ,

Humans, to be clear, were only the example used because the people in the chat are humans and can more likely relate to that idea better than talking about the capabilities of something else in the animal kingdom. It's easier to grasp a point if you have experience of the analogy

Which is why analogies exist

[slim dragon]

Then try doing an analogy with wolves or dogs instead, they're more similar to utahs than humans and elephants are

When two wolves fight, it usually ends hen one gets pinned to the ground, because then it has no chance to win and submits

[dreamy fiber]

Can you read? I already said I did it with humans because the people in this chat are humans and will have a better grasp of their own abilities than that of a wolf or dog.

It only takes the matter a play wrestle to understand the impact weight hss

To do it with another creature therefore fundamentally undermines why humans were chosen to exemplify the point at all. This isn't hard to understand imo

Almost anyone trying to tutor a point will try to pick something relatable to the listener.

[slim dragon]

It's still a bad decision of what example to pick? You should compare two things that are comparable rather than compare everything to humans because people are humans.

[analog mirage]

Pretty sure a Utah can use stam to buck another Utah off. If that’s not a thing it should be

Even though it’s pinned, using stam to push it off

[slim dragon]

I think that just happens automatically when you get pinned
Since pinning costs more stam than latching onto a non-bucking target

[golden coral]

Do you lose stam when you get pinned?

[analog mirage]

If you try to break free I think

[spring dagger]

Pinning is a bad mechanic for similar weighted creatures, there should be more of a struggle since mass is relative. Dietary factors, age and all this lot have an influence over an animals ability to fight afterall.

[golden coral]

Far as I know, there's no struggling free from pin, or lunge. Only pounce/buck has any form of interaction. But I could obviously be wrong, I rarely play something small enough to get pinned.

[analog mirage]

I think the reason no one ever notices it is cause everything Utah can pin usually dies out of damage

Cause they are smaller than it

[glacial kraken]

@fiery ruin

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/778350260027129865/1018967603932307539 - do you not think carno mega packs would be more of a problem?

[slim dragon]

@paper heron There is no leg break chance in evrima
Fractures function completely differently from before, you just shouldn't base anything regarding evrima's balance and mechanics off legacy

[twilit juniper]

I atleast hope rex doesnt get a legbreak bite again x^x A pinning ability or just using its pure size and weight yes though..

[tall bronze]

I imagine it'll have fracture capabilities since....well it's a T.Rex 😛 But yeah, fractures aren't RNG like legacy. Each breakable body part (head, legs, and body) has it's own hidden "health bar" that, when 0, fractures the creature. This only applies for fracture-capable attacks of course, like Pachy's ram.

In the future there will also be severities for fractures. Right now it's just "fracture or none"

[strange rivet]

thx i was wondering about that last part for a while

[marsh marsh]

How is it still ingame that pachy can just shrug off and laugh like nothing happen when carno charges it with 60 mph and also stops its ram xDD

[keen plover]

Are you charging a pachy that is also charging

[copper rover]

https://tenor.com/view/cow-funny-animals-gif-9130616

[marsh marsh]

🤣

[marsh marsh]

Idk

[keen plover]

Ah, well pachy isn't untouched when it stops a carnos charge. It has a body fracture, while a carno has a head fracture. (A bad trade if the pachy is solo)

[marsh marsh]

Ok sorry but I didnt know that lmao

[hasty coyote]

You mean the parry thing? If a carno charges and a pachy rams it, the carno gets a head fracture and the pachy gets a body fracture. So the pachy doesn’t just “shrug off” the charge

(I now see you got answered already, my b)

[winter iris]

maybe it is just me, but I have noticed more than once and using different playables, that many times against a pachy's ram there's a bit of a glitch...it seems like once you're on the pachy's ram's target zone there's nothing you can do, even if there would be more than enough time for a bite or for a kick (if playin as teno). Additionally, pachy's ram gets often delivered even if it hits the tail, and I think that is something that shouldn't happen.
Btw, the glitch could be just my impression

[analog mirage]

I think you are just talking about pachy ram taking priority over other attacks

[neon willow]

In case you didn't know, the game prioritizes different attacks for secondary effects-- things like stun, latch, knockdown, etc. Pachy ram's stun is higher priority than most (actually I think all) other attacks. So in a conflict between teno kick stun and a pachy ram stun, the game will always stun the teno

[keen plover]

Yeah, which is stupid

Teno should have priority

[alpine plover]

The Utah video sample was wasted for the concept

A wrestling mechanic similar to the Ufc fighting game would've sufficed better

Or new tackle abilities, grapple mechanics

Universally '

I always found that the alt attack would've been a perfect fit for such, since the Carni alt attacks(aside from Deino) all felt so awkward

Stationery defensive attacks to animals relying on pursuing, offensive tactics

Rarely ever being utilized in most combat scenarios other than mirror matchups

A waste of a possible utility

[dreamy fiber]

This would essentially make pachy suck. Pachys special becomes worthless if it can't reliably use it, so having priority is a package deal imo.
The only things pachy should have lower priority against are past a significantly higher weight threshold (ones it can probably outrun instead) and other animals of greater weight that essentially share the pachy's niche.

People have a bias against pachy rn. Giving them less reasons to play it is a bad idea.

[calm ibex]

teno vs pachy is very much one sided though

[neon willow]

I think you misunderstood? I wasnt saying pachy should be lower priority, but rather simply explaining the existing mechanic (that it has highest priority)

[keen plover]

For who

[calm ibex]

pachy ofc

[keen plover]

Depends on a few factors that change the matchup, but open field and its pretty even

Yeah

Pachy does really well. I've soloed a few tenos purely because I can cancel their tail attacks

Which makes no sense lol

Teno should have priority on kick and slam over charge, while pachy should have priority over claw attack

Literally cancels your attack currently and takes your stamina

[unborn iris]

A few updates ago when they changed up kick and tailslam, it specifically said tail slam would have priority over pachy headbutt. Think it's just bugged atm while they fine-tune the pachy parry. It seems to be getting messed with behind the scenes in every update.

[neon willow]

@sudden tundra last I heard they're planning to do this (to some extent) with update 6

[winter iris]

well, then it's quite badly designed, because I would get it if it was a well timed ram, but in many cases it gets priority also when it is badly timed...in that case i think whatever attack is delivered first should get priority

[neon willow]

Oh for sure XD

[slim dragon]

@scenic charm Yes it's normal. Ptera is a paper plane while stego is a powerhouse.

[winter iris]

is there any plan to make carno's blood pool a bit more resistant against utah's pounce in the next update? I play both utah and carno and in my opinion it is now too easy as a utah to kill a carno (without even fighting, just 2 or 3 decent pounces and it is over in minutes as long as you make the carno walk as now the only way to stop bleeding is resting), and as a carno it isn't particularly enjoyable to die after 2 pounces or because you literally can't move after these. I agree that in the previous update carno's blood pool was too largeagainst uath's pounce, but the combination of adjusted pounce and huge nerf of carno's blood pool isn't working well for the fun in my opinion

[spring dagger]

Probably not.

[alpine plover]

carno will likely stay the same until another similarly sized theropod gets added

so carno is pretty much staying like this for a good long while

[spring dagger]

Atleast it 1 shots utahs now with a charge to the head.

But my god the pounce is genuinely too easy now.

[thin mantle]

Yeah….it’s depressingly easy and forgiving

[primal harbor]

@glacial kraken what is your thoughts on carno hunger drain?

[glacial kraken]

i dont think it should be changed tbh

although, saying that for the juvis it should be less

but for the adults i think it helps against having massive packs of carnos roaming around

i see plenty of mega packs of carnos as it is, if hunger drain for them was improved it'd be even worse

[primal harbor]

yes but if you are just 1 trying to ambush like how the devs intend you just starve before you find something, AI help but even then

[glacial kraken]

i've been ambushed by plenty of carnos, it just requires map knowledge and to wait near a hotspot

[primal harbor]

it also depends on the situation

because everuthing hangs out in the plains and do not really touch the forest is an issue as well

[glacial kraken]

i think carnos are the most balanced they've been for a while imo

[glacial kraken]

yes but you can hide in the tree line, dense bushes, etc

[primal harbor]

I think if they aren't going to revert the bleed where 2 utahs can reliably take down a carno I think the food drain should be lowered so people can actually ambush without starving

[glacial kraken]

honestly i think if 2 utahs can take you down as a carno it's a skill issue...

[primal harbor]

the increase AI has helped tho

no that is just how it is now

[glacial kraken]

it isnt

if you buck a utah off they get about a 2-3 second pounce

max, and then they have no stamina to run away

you can easily kill them then

as a carno 2 shots a utah

[primal harbor]

but they get off and just go outside the radius of which you can rest but too far away for you to kill them until you bleed out

[glacial kraken]

but your faster than them... how would they get away?

they can turn quicker, true but then just dont charge

your still quicker

[primal harbor]

because carnos turn radius and the utahs utilizing bushes

[glacial kraken]

everything uses bushes though...

carnos hide in them, stegs hide in them, tenos hide in them, everything uses them

[primal harbor]

yes but they also use them to just do a sharp turn and you cannot do anything about it and they take turns pouncing

[glacial kraken]

okay but we're on about just 2 utahs here..

if there's 5 then obviously you're going to die, if you dont then it's just the utahs being bad...

[primal harbor]

yes we are talking about 2

when you focus one one one randomly comes from a bush and pounces you, they get off with stam even with bucking then you try killing that one then the other just jumps on

usually killing 1 is just fine but then there is the other that runs away and once again stays just outside your radius to rest and running makes your bleed MUCH worse

so youll probably end up dying after the fight anyways catching it and killing it

[glacial kraken]

okay... so lets say you manage to kill one and have 60% bleed...

the other one has been biting you as well so your a bit low

then it goes for a pounce, just buck then stand still

if it goes for you just alt bite

[primal harbor]

but it doesnt go for me after the other one is dead

[glacial kraken]

if your sprinting after them then obviously you're going to die, that's what they want...

[primal harbor]

its just far away waiting for me to die

I cant rest

I cant sprint

[glacial kraken]

if you stand still you take little damage

[primal harbor]

yes but what then, I tried that and they just stand there

they aren't stupid

[glacial kraken]

so let them stand there

then when you heal just run if you dont want to fight

you run way quicker than them...

[primal harbor]

do you heal bleed if you stand still?

[glacial kraken]

if you're scared of getting pounced go to a river or a rock, or a tree...

yes you still take bleed damage, but it goes down the slowest other than resting

[primal harbor]

yes but you will still eventually die

even just standing there

[golden coral]

Carno could do with the bleed nerf reverted. And maybe a bit more hunger, though it is doable to survive.

[primal harbor]

it is

[glacial kraken]

if you get pounced as a carno, whilst walking you only take 20% bleed damage...

if your standing im guessing its even less

[primal harbor]

I just think if you are gonna make the bleed be insane make it not have as much food drain to actually ambush or revert the bleed so it doesn't have to rely on ambushing 100% of the time

I also think this could be fixed with utah falling off pouncing on the face

cuz the bleed isnt the biggest issue its that pouncing is easy mode

[glacial kraken]

carnos dont rely on ambush though

ive seen plenty of them just 1v1 tenos and stegs and stuff

[primal harbor]

eh it depends

the devs want it to only have the upper hand if it stuns with an ambush

[golden coral]

This. Make pounce only work on the side where the slot is, and stun on face/tail (or even get knocked down, if we want to be harsher), and it would probably be just fine.

[glacial kraken]

i dont think they should tbh, at first i did agree, but taking into account dsync and ping, I think that there would be a lot of situations where you've landed the pounce on your screen but it's missed randomly and you get hit or die

(like it was before)

[golden coral]

Except before, the pounce bugged out. Now it works, so there wouldn't be that issue, any more than with any attack.

[glacial kraken]

it'd be better in theory but I think for a game mechanic it wouldnt be better

[glacial kraken]

it works because they added an aim lock to the hitbox, that's all they changed I'm pretty sure

[golden coral]

Well if they keep the easy mode no brain magnetic pounce, then a severe bleed nerf for the pounce, and a massive improvement of buck will be needed.

[primal harbor]

exactly, so make it you cant do it from the head at least

then the utah is dead for trying to pounce someone from the head

cuz its kinda a no brainer that doing that is a death wish

[glacial kraken]

nerfing utahs bleed would make utah basically useless...

[golden coral]

I don't know, but it works, which it didn't do before. But the pounce isn't tuned for working, so there's some balance issues. And for some reason they nerfed carno bleed resist, without first seeing how it would go with a working pounce, which is another issue.

[glacial kraken]

it'd ruin the whole point of utah... it's supposed to do a lot of bleed...

[golden coral]

It wouldn't, at all. Right now utah is too good for what minimal risk it takes.

[primal harbor]

exactly that si why we are proposing changing the pounce to not be easy mode

[golden coral]

But yes, it would be more fun, interesting, and better to just make pounce actually require more than half a braincell to use.

As well as make bucking a proper counter, instead of having to hide in terrain

[glacial kraken]

if it went back to how it was, you'd just be landing pounces on your client side but not server side

[primal harbor]

but it wont

cuz they fixed it

[glacial kraken]

it would though... it's how it was before

[golden coral]

Why? You'd keep the working pounce, you'd just make it only work on the flanks/sides, where the slots are, instead of face/tail.

[glacial kraken]

they didnt fix anything though, they just added an aim lock to the hitbox like I said before

[golden coral]

Originally it worked like that, you got stunned or knocked down if you pounced from the wrong angle, so.. it's been a thing I think at least

[golden coral]

And there'd be no way to otherwise change the hitbox or something then?

[glacial kraken]

i think it'd make a lot more issues than it'd fix tbh

[primal harbor]

yeah cuz the issue was the pounce would land on other parts of the body but now since it goes to the side no matter what pouncing at the head should not be allowed period

it would pretty much be an inbetween of how it use to be and how it is now which is exactly what we want

people are saying its a skill issue with carno while utah is easy mode rn

[golden coral]

Well then we're back to a proper buck as counter (which is needed anyway), and potentially bleed resist for the playables, or a bleed nerf for pounce. Because currently I'd absolutely say you get way more from a pounce than you should for the risk you take.

[primal harbor]

^

[golden coral]

To be fair, the pounce was never hard to land, it was the bugs that made it such a mess, not the move itself

In any case, it could do with requiring more from the player, as could the buck interaction, lunge, and probably combat in general really

[glacial kraken]

honestly I think any good carno wouldnt have a problem against 2-3 utahs, it's just how you play

[golden coral]

As per usual, I'll refer to teno as a good playable, with interesting combat and all

[glacial kraken]

but on the other card, 1-2 utahs wouldnt have a problem against a carno

[golden coral]

Oh sure, if you just hug a tree or rock, I'm sure you'll do fine

But that's not, in my opinion, a valid argument because using terrain to counter a mechanic is just not good, much less interesting. See deino for an example there, the best counter is to just not drink at any place where deino can be, and you never need worry.

Much better if there's proper counterplay and other ways to handle things

[glacial kraken]

the whole point of the pounce mechnic is that they can get knocked off and punished easily

there is counter play, that is the counterplay...

it's like when tenos, stegs or carnos camp water/cliffs/bushes

[golden coral]

But they can't. There's no "easy punishment" at all really. No utah that has a braincell will ever get caught by a tree or rock like that.

And sure, but that's terrible counterplay, not proper or good

[glacial kraken]

okay, so what your saying is that it's safe next to a rock/cliff, etc?

[golden coral]

So yes, you can camp a cliff, but that's just bad, when you can make buck a proper counter, and make the whole interaction with pounce and buck better at that

[glacial kraken]

so then sit there until your healed then run away (if your a carno)

as your much quicker

[golden coral]

I'm saying that no utah that has a braincell will get knocked off and put in danger by terrain, since you'd see it coming.

So sure, you can just hide there until you can somehow run away or the utahs get bored and give up, as stegos and tenos and others do

But as I also said, that's boring, and not a good or proper counter to a mechanic, as far as I'm concerned. Especially not when we do have buck, which could be utilized better. On top of that, the entire "click and hold RMB to pounce. Press E to buck" is very lacking in interaction for both sides.

[glacial kraken]

youd be surprised, most utahs I see just pounce randomly without a second thought, the dino they're pouncing just mess up the punish

[golden coral]

As such, there's room for improvement and ways to make it more fun and more challenging, both for the utah and the target.'

[glacial kraken]

it's literally just a skill issue...

[golden coral]

I did say a utah that had a braincell. I've had a utah literally run up my rear end as teno, trying to bite me. Only to get tailslammed into the ground. So yes, I know people are rather lacking in how they play. But we can't balance based on that kind of.. not very intelligent plays.

Or make mechanics or design the game around that really. Then we'd be pretty limited to what could be done.

[golden coral]

There's very little room, if any, for an actual punishment. Missing a pounce is barely a notice, unless you miss right next to the target possibly. Mount/dismount is pretty safe in almost all circumstances.

[winter iris]

reality is that it's now very difficult to punish a failed pounce because the recovery time for pounce is ridiculously short

[golden coral]

You can get on and off a stego rather safely, despite being the one animal where you really shouldn't be able to do that. So you know, just imagine how everything else bigger and slower will suffer. Sure, a carno can run away, a teno or pachy can not, though they are at least small and agile enough to fight back, and has decent toolset (in the case of teno at least, pachy alt is useful too or so I've heard).

[primal harbor]

pounce just needs to be more punishable in some way, if they are going to keep it how it is make getting up from it longer

but i still think you should fall off pouncing on the head

because you are an idiot if you are trying to pounce something on its head

[glacial kraken]

stegos can swing and still hit you, even if you face the head when you dismount

[primal harbor]

you should always aim back end

[golden coral]

A bit more punishable yes, more like pachy ram miss I would say. But more importantly is the whole demanding some skill and thought in using pounce, which would be helped if it only worked on the sides, and not on front or rear.

[winter iris]

in reality a carno can't even run away during the day, bleeding and stamina would prevent it. If you're lucky you run away but generally you can't

[glacial kraken]

pounce is punishable if you miss, most dinos can get a hit in atleast

[primal harbor]

not really

[winter iris]

lol

[primal harbor]

90% of the time you get away and you would have to miss so much from the target because of how much of a magnet it is you are far away from it already

[glacial kraken]

the magnet isnt even big, it's literally just if you pounce their hitbox...

[winter iris]

failed pounce is punishable if it lands right next to the opponent or if the utah player sucks. Otherwise, with the current recovery time you can simply spam pounce

[golden coral]

I know, I did say rather safely. Most of the time you can get out just fine, and get on perfectly safe due to frontal pounce. Sure, the stego can time and hit you, but it's not a given, and now when bucking + moving drains stam fast, it's even less likely since the stego can't turn around while bucking and try and trick you like that for very long.

[glacial kraken]

you cant spam pounce, you lose too much stamina, against a carno or teno that's suicide

[glacial kraken]

most times you fail a pounce you get hit, if you dont the dino your fighting just isnt good...

[golden coral]

... the magnet pounce means you don't even need to aim, just.. go in the general direction of the target and you're set. And missing a pounce is barely a notice, like I said. Sure, you can punish if the utah misses right next to your face (or tail for stego or teno I guess) but if not, it can get away, at most taking a tail hit as punishment.

[glacial kraken]

or they have a 2 second reaction time

[golden coral]

No, you really do not. You don't get hit at all, because there's barely any punishment time any more. Maybe if you're a solo utah and can get all the focus, but not otherwise.

[winter iris]

against a fully grown carno you just need to land 2 decent pounce to bleed it, and to me in a fight if you try 4 pounces in 1 min a half that's spam pounce, and you can do that with stamina

[glacial kraken]

you hardly wouldnt notice a pounce, it makes a sound when it's pressed and a sound when it lands on the floor...

[glacial kraken]

1 pounce does 20% bleed to a walking carno, so 2 pounces would do 40%, leaving it at 60% bleed...

[golden coral]

It does, by the time you hear that, the utah is almost moving again. But I meant more so in the time. if you miss, you're back to moving almost immediately. Which is why there's very little risk of punishment.

[glacial kraken]

if it's smart and doesnt sprint after them it wont have a problem killing them

[glacial kraken]

its still very punishable though

if they pounce they're going to be close to you, especially now as everyone's complaining about it being magnetic, they must be extremely close

[winter iris]

a carno cannot just walk in a fight especially if playing solo, you know that. I have killed carnos with 2 pounces and I have been killed with a bit more than 2, so it's a thing

[golden coral]

It's not. If you truly think it is, you're.. I'm sorry but no. There's so little time that unless you miss right in front of the target, you're not going to get punished in any noticable way.

[golden coral]

That's.. not what we mean with magnetic..

[glacial kraken]

that's because they're sprinting...

why would you sprint whilst you have bleed? it's like asking to die

[winter iris]

lol, c'mon have you ever played carno in a fight against utahs?

[primal harbor]

also if you say its a skill issue if you are bad at carno but think utah pounce is fine you are a huge hypocrite because utah is easy mode

[glacial kraken]

yes and i won easily...

[golden coral]

You do have an impact pounce, which is powerful in it's own right, but distance works just fine too. You have utahs that literally pounce a carno face when it's running at them, tanking a hit to get the pounce and bleed in. And it's a good trade for the utah at that.

[glacial kraken]

ive played carno against utahs and ive played utah against carno

imo it's literally the definition of a skill issue

[golden coral]

Maybe, but on whos side is the question then.

[winter iris]

last person wwho told that to me was a utah youtuber...first time I met him as a carno he tried to cannibalise me and I killed him easily...he claimed playing carno was easy...

[glacial kraken]

unless there's like 5+ utahs then your gonna die

[golden coral]

Because with how easy utah is to play, I'd say it has the advantage vs a carno in most cases, strangely enough.

[primal harbor]

you are just very bad with utah then LMAO

[winter iris]

ofc, carno vs 2 rubbish utahs is an easy win...I'm talking about good carno vs good utahs

[glacial kraken]

ive killed carnos in 1v1s, it just takes a while, i wouldnt say im bad but im not the best

[winter iris]

2 good utahs are more than enough vs a good carno, they have probably more chances than the carno

[glacial kraken]

ive seen a good carno kill 5 good utahs...

i can send you the clip if youd like

[primal harbor]

then those utahs were not good at all lmao

[winter iris]

pre-update I'd agree it was rubbish, I could easily face 7-8 utahs together and win...so it's good that it has changed now

[golden coral]

I've seen all kinds of matchups, so you'd have to compare players of skill on both sides, and then on where they are fighting at that. Since terrain does matter due to being able to "knock off" utahs (but not knock them down I don't think?).

[golden coral]

Yeah, that was either a terrible place to fight for the utahs, or they had no idea what they were doing. If it was the former, they were dumb, if it was the latter, they were bad.

[glacial kraken]

it was dbear and hit friends, i think they're all okay at playing utah

[winter iris]

I've also done it, but we can't base our opinion on occasions...the average that you see is that 2 utahs can relatively easily take down a carno

[golden coral]

They are, but they're probably far from perfect. But I'll take a look at the clip and see.

[glacial kraken]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kHutU7XhOw

i think it might be this one

but then there are good utahs like nappn who can 1v1 carnos decently well

[golden coral]

And you don't see a balance issue with that?

[glacial kraken]

i could say the vice versa, you dont see a balance issue with a carno killing 10 utahs?

[golden coral]

If that's like a thing, then utah absolutely needs some nerf, or carno needs a buff. Because that should not be a thing unless the carno has absolutely no clue how to play, simple as that.

[winter iris]

with clips you can demonstrate whatever you'd like. You're basically taking the top 1% players to demonstrate an average trend. It is a logical non-sense. I could send you videos from Nappn from update 4.5 taking down stegos as solo utah. Would a clip like that mean utah didn't need to be adjusted?

[glacial kraken]

its literally just based on playstyle and skill

[golden coral]

No because from what I'm seeing there, none of them seem to be playing very smart or good at all, so...

[glacial kraken]

he's the one that asked for the clip

[golden coral]

Yes, and I'm having a look. I'm not impressed so far.

Of course, I expect taking terrain into account as part of being a good player so there is that.

[winter iris]

ye yea I know, I was just making clear my idea on the use of clips to then discuss about average trends in game

[glacial kraken]

your right though, i dont think the top 1% of players should be taken into account when making adjustments to games, but then they also shouldnt be adjusting it to bottom 1% as well

which is what you get when you die to a solo utah

or maybe even 2

[winter iris]

by the way, I think that now it is also difficult for devs to find the right balance because the playable roster is quite narrow. As soon as more playables will be in game, I think balance will also benefit

and dinos skills will be set better

[glacial kraken]

i dont think they'll make any big changes for nerfs and that, they've already said they wont change stego as there's no point as they'll have to change it back anyway when they add more apexes

[winter iris]

totally agree

on the top 1% and bottom 1% idea I meant

[golden coral]

Nah, they should balance for the absolute best, since that is what people will get to, eventually.

Which is why you'd need to look at those matchups.

[glacial kraken]

Balancing it for the top 1% wouldn't make it playable for the average player

[winter iris]

those matchups are useful because they reveal many things that an average player matchup wouldn't, but you cannot base adjustments on the top1% player base clips because it is not representative of how the game balance actually is. So, if you're after a decent balance you can see what is not working or what is working from those clips, but the idea that the best utah player can take down a carno so utah should be nerfed or that the best carno player can take down 5-6 utahs playing solo, so carno should be nerfed...well that's very wrong and would destry game balance

[golden coral]

I disagree entirely. It is what you need to do to balance properly. Because it's what will happen, and if you don't balance for that, you will get strange things like those matchups, that shouldn't be happening.

You have to base adjustments and balance on the best possible plays so you get what will be the actual results in the game when you get those matchups. Because people will get to that, and then you'd have to rebalance for that at some point then instead.

[winter iris]

it is like Formula1 drivers...You make them test cars because it takes them 1 or 2 laps to see what is working and what isn't, but you do not build an F1 car for evryone, because the top 0.5% may like that car, but drivers from top 0.5% to top 5% don't, and they would be very good drivers anyway

[golden coral]

Since people will inevitably get good as it were, you need to balance accordingly and take that into account. You don't want to balance for "average" only to then get things like utah soloing a rex because you didn't base it on the best utah vs the best rex to see how it would actually go.

I.. don't think you can compare it like that honestly. I kind of get what you're trying to say, but I'm not sure that's how game balance works, or should work for that matter.

[winter iris]

for this to be true you should watch a thousand match-ups similar to that and see if they all go the same way. The balance is by definition the average trend of the game, that's it

but of course, if you notice something broken or cleraly wrong, that needs to be adjusted. And you can find out a lot more of these things in good players videos rather than in bad players videos

[golden coral]

And this is of course why you need a proper balance team. Because yes, you need to test it properly to see how it goes, with the best players on both sides. Not just one matchup and go by that, since it takes time to learn and get good, and then to adjust for every fight and so on. Maybe I've misunderstood what you mean with average trend.

[winter iris]

yea I think in the end we're probably saying a very similar thing haha...I was thinking that as well

My point is mainly that watching videos from super good players and thinking that that's how the game generally is, is just not true

difference is when super good players face each other which is the best way to quickly try to reach a decent balance

[golden coral]

Anyway, I need to go sleep. For the earlier discussion, no matter the current balance on carno vs utah, utah pounce needs more demands to be an actually interesting and difficult ability to use. And bucking needs to be a proper counter, so there's less of the whole hugging trees or rocks, and the interaction between pounce and buck coudl really use some work to be more interesting, challenging, and fun for both sides.

[winter iris]

which then needs to be tested anyways

[primal harbor]

ultimatly circles back to what I said, if the devs aren't changing bleed on carno or pounce on utah then they should just lower the drain or increase the food capacity, or both

that would be better than nothing

[golden coral]

Pretty much what I was trying to say I think + your second comment there about testing it.

Now then, good night to you lot!

[winter iris]

good night!

[primal harbor]

have a good one

[royal stratus]

I don't think utah should be nerfed, balanced wise, but it sure would need mechanic adjustment. The magnetic pounce for one, it's way too effective, as well as the recovery time from missed pounce and/or being bucked off/hit by tree, it's way too fast. Either they get longer recovery time, or make it that they can't IMMEDIATLY run away, a walk/trot of a couple seconds would be good and fair.
And also, the fact that spawn/juvi would totally reset blood loss, it feels unrealistic for big/adult dinosaurs to suffer from that, those tiny bitty claws/fangs shouldn't tear into the leather of big adult dinosaurs.

[haughty prawn]

Do you remember the time in u4 before they increased carnos food drain? There were megapacks all over the map at most I saw a pack of 20 carnos running around and killing everything they will change it as soon as there are more mid sized Dino’s in the game. And if they give Carno a bigger blood pool carnos gonna 1v10 utahs again (if the carnos don’t have a skill issue)

[primal harbor]

Yeah I do see that happening, like the others said the best thing to do rn is to make Utah pounce not easy mode which I also think is a good way of going about it

[haughty prawn]

Yes I agree and as soon as there are more mid sized Dino’s Carno needs to get a slower food drain for sure

[small herald]

Also I believe that every attack should have priority over pounce. I mean the Utah is in the air and is a small tier Dino. It shouldn’t phase through a teno tail slam or a carno bite.

[keen plover]

Lets be real. It wasn't the bloodpool that let carnos 1 v 10 raptors lol

[haughty prawn]

YES I WAS JUST TOO OP

[keen plover]

Bruh. It was the broken pounce that made raptors die to carnos lol

[haughty prawn]

Uhm yes lol

[keen plover]

It literally has the same bloodpool as before, its just the bleed multiplier is higher for standing, trotting and walking

Running is the same multiplier

[strange rivet]

I STRONGLY disagree with adding more recovery time from a missed pounce, there are plenty of other ways to nerf it.
If anything i would increase initial stamina cost...
I'd rather much more buff the control/mementum/fluidity and responsiveness of other dinosaurs before nerfing one.

[keen plover]

I see what you mean.

I just want raptor to feel like it has a big risk fighting players again. Right now, it feels too easy.

Carno is like the easiest playable to hunt. I miss a pounce, I keep moving since it takes them a bit to turn around

Only weakness I see is low HP / weight for utah

I do think it's showing its strengths a lot since other playables were nerfed (carno and pachy)

So, maybe a buff for them first before they touch raptor

I still do think the pounce recovery is too fast.

[golden coral]

The recovery time for missing is fine, if we had pounce only working from the sides/on the slots. That way you just add the recovery time on miss for hitting the front or rear as well, and you're most likely good to go.

[strange rivet]

carno's alt-bite and the pachy's rocket head hitting invisible walls feels awkward to me.
And we know they have been testing on the stego's running swing and why they set it aside for now so at least there's that

[winter iris]

i don't fully agree. In update 4.5 carno had better movements (now nerfed), better bite hitbox (now nerfed) and the blood pool was really strong (now is ridiculously weak). On the other hand in update 4.5 utah pounce was broken (now is a magnet and can be spammed), so of course an increase in carno blood pool would not recreate the situation of update 4.5 in carno vs utah fights. On the food drain, I wouldn't reverse it to update 4.5 to avoid mega packs, but give carno players the chance to explore the map would be nice, maybe a slight decrease in hunger speed but I am not sure about this because I hated the carno mega packs in update 4.5

I have noticed that many times big utahs have an exagerated bite hitbox. I did notice it because on purpose I made utahs run after me as little carno and all the times (like 10-12 times, they were able to kill me biting me from the tail even if actually they were not even touching me. I didn't notice it when playing as utah mainly because I have naver hunted small carnos running after them (played utah just a few times since update was released).
I did it on purpose just to check this, but did anyone else notice the same thing?

[primal harbor]

putting carno bleed resistance how it use to be would be just fine since they nerfed everything else about it

either that or make it so you cant pounce the face of animals

either of those will make carno a lot more viable

[keen plover]

Both makes sense. I'd revert the bleed multipliers to previously and see how carno is then

[glacial kraken]

This is just ping, it happens with every dino

[glacial kraken]

carno is still really viable, it just isn't an op killing machine and a tank now

it requires a bit more thought and carefulness

[keen plover]

I wouldn't call it that

[primal harbor]

You cant do that if your feed drain is so fast

I can understand making something take more skill but I the food drain is so fast that doesn't matter

[glacial kraken]

even with fast hunger drain you still get an insane amount of carno mega packs

[primal harbor]

But if you increase the food drain megapacking exists

[glacial kraken]

if they changed it and made the drain slower it'd be even worse than what it currently is

[keen plover]

Well yeah, since you need to blitz things in groups

I wouldn't even call what is happening good

[primal harbor]

They still need to revert the bleed or make Utah pounce slightly harder anyways

Cuz once again every bit of it was nerfed since it was an op killing machine

[keen plover]

Raptor isn't hard, yeah. I remember when it was actually risky to hunt things. It's either guaranteed or impossible

[glacial kraken]

it still is risky to hunt things

you try fighting a carno or a teno by yourself

[golden coral]

At the very least they should try out carno with the bleed resistance nerf reverted, because it wasn't taken into account how it would go if utah pounce actually works. And yeah, pounce needs to be way more difficult to use for that payoff, especially if they want utah to hunt way larger things.

[golden coral]

Has it occured to you that both of those are pack hunts?

[keen plover]

💀 Why would I hunt those solo?

[golden coral]

3 or so utahs, if you want to have an actual chance. At least that's how it should be.

[primal harbor]

Yeah that is just dumb

[keen plover]

Get another raptor and it's over, from my experience

[glacial kraken]

well according to everyone here pounce is op and needs nerf and every utah can 1v1 a carno

[keen plover]

2 currently

[glacial kraken]

😭 😂

[keen plover]

No, but it can reliably hunt it in pairs

[glacial kraken]

that's how it is rn...

[golden coral]

Yes, utah is pretty much the best investment currently, except maybe deino because well, immunity to the entire roster.

[primal harbor]

Nobody has said that, everyone has been saying 2v1 no idea where the hell you got that

[golden coral]

And that's not taking the ease of the pounce into account, just the bleed.

[glacial kraken]

best investment imo rn is stego

[keen plover]

Utah has too much going for it lol. Only weakness is the god damn HP on it

[glacial kraken]

just afk for 3 hours and there you go, your invincible

[golden coral]

It's really not. You're way more invincible as deino, and utah is way better at killing stuff. Stego is nowhere as good compared to those for respective goal.

[keen plover]

Pounce from point blank after baiting an attack

[golden coral]

If you truly think stego is invincible, you clearly have never played deino.

[glacial kraken]

people were saying yesterday or whenever we were talking before that they can 1v1 carnos as a utah by just pouncing and running..

im pretty sure atleast, it might've been a different server though

[golden coral]

Now there's a playable that's both one of the easiest to grow, almost as powerful as stego in general and specifically more so when it comes to sheer killing ability, and is immune, more so than stego, to most of the roster.

[primal harbor]

I can see that happening but with same skill I would said 1v2 is how to reliably take down a carno now

[glacial kraken]

honestly i still think its just a skill issue

[primal harbor]

And honestly you can't say carno is a skill issue then say Utah is balanced cuz it is easy mode rn

[keen plover]

Not really tbf

[primal harbor]

No

[keen plover]

Don't waste all your stam pouncing

[golden coral]

I mean, yeah, if you think being a utah is hard, then you have a skill issue.

[keen plover]

have like half and just regen stam

[glacial kraken]

im on about every dino

[keen plover]

Carno chases for a bit, just keep trading pounces

Or it stands, even better

[glacial kraken]

only time it isnt is if it's a pack of dinos tryna kill you

[primal harbor]

Or if they run at you pounce at its face (which should be a death wish)

They should make you bounce off the front part to make carno live more situations

[golden coral]

Well, teno is probably the only critter that actually takes some form of brainpower to use really. Though stego, due to lack of mobility does require some timing as well. Pachy would probably fall in there too somewhere. And then on the opposite end you got dryo and utah, being of the "I have to try to die" more or less.

[primal harbor]

And if not revert the bleed

[keen plover]

Buff pachy 🥰

[glacial kraken]

i gotta disagree on that

[keen plover]

Bring back demon pachy

[glacial kraken]

i played stego once, got fully grown and it was the most boring experience i've had

[golden coral]

That.. has nothing to do with what I claimed.

[primal harbor]

Anything can be boring lol

[glacial kraken]

you said stego requires timing and a bit of skill

[primal harbor]

Welcome to the isle

[golden coral]

But if you compare the mobility, and ability to recover from a failed attack, the faster things have it so much easier and require so much less thinking.

[glacial kraken]

it really doesnt

[golden coral]

It really does yes. Compare to any critter that can just readjust on the fly due to mobility and speed.

[glacial kraken]

you can do 22 consecutive swings before you run out of stam

[golden coral]

Your number of attacks have nothing to do with the point either.

[glacial kraken]

22 of them 1 shot nearly anything

[primal harbor]

Doesn't matter if you have low mobility

[glacial kraken]

pretty sure they 2-4 shot a carno also

[golden coral]

I am claiming that stego lacks the mobility to recover from a failed attack, vs something like a teno or faster animal that can just.. keep going. And risk less punishment for failure.

[keen plover]

2 to the body, 1 to the head

[glacial kraken]

shits mad

[primal harbor]

Positioning takes brain power

That is what he is trying to say

[golden coral]

You say stego requires no timing, which is blantantly false. You can't just swing and "Oh I missed, I guess I'll just swing again a bit closer and hit" because you lack the movment to adjust like that.

[keen plover]

Eh, it kind of needs high damage. I just wouldn't have it in the game (same as deino). Need a roster change eventually

For a good game lol

[glacial kraken]

im saying it doesnt matter if you miss

[golden coral]

While as a teno, I can just.. move around, and go in for another attack with adjusted positioning much easier and faster.

[glacial kraken]

because you literally have no down side

[golden coral]

It does. But that is irrelevant to the point as well.

[glacial kraken]

it doesnt 😭 😂

have you even played stego?

you physically cant die

[golden coral]

Yes. And you're just not comprehending my point so. And sure you can die, quite easily to utah packs at that.

[glacial kraken]

wrong

[golden coral]

Or so I've seen and been told, plenty of utahs that do kill stegos quite easily.

[glacial kraken]

most utah packs dont even bother fighting a stego

[primal harbor]

That is not wrong lmao

[glacial kraken]

all you have to do is move to a river... the deinos are usually too scared to even try to fight you

[golden coral]

No, you're actually wrong if you don't understand how good utah is, and how, relatively, bad stego is.

[glacial kraken]

your funny af my guy

[keen plover]

Yeah, since stego is an anti - flank creature (a terrible inclusion)

[golden coral]

Anf it's surprisingly bad for being that, but maybe in the future we can see a change there. But whoever thought turning stego into a scorpion was a good idea.. xD Though if utahs could only pounce on flanks, it might work out slightly better at least.

[glacial kraken]

your saying stego is bad? 😭 😂

yeah tbf it needs a buff

[golden coral]

Well, you're just clearly not understanding either my points or how the game actually works. Sure, you can "hug a tree" or sit at the river as stego. Great fun and excellent counter. Now compare that with deino, being entirely immune.

[glacial kraken]

it should just 1 shot deinos

[keen plover]

True

Stego needs to abuse terrain

[primal harbor]

Deinos should also 1 shot stegos in the head

[keen plover]

Keep the ground flat and stegos die to raptors

Sure, some will die - but over time

[golden coral]

I am saying stego is bad at being a proper stego. You really do need to actually look at what I'm writing. And yes, stego will need a buff in the future to handle the other apexes, do keep in mind it's one of the weakest apexes on the herbi side (not sure how acro will be done, but it's also possibly an apex, so not sure on the power there compared to stego).

[glacial kraken]

stegos have a realllyy hard time dying to raptors

[primal harbor]

Not really

[glacial kraken]

ive only killed a stego a handful of times as a utah

[keen plover]

I wonder why

[glacial kraken]

and that's when im in a pack of around 6+

[primal harbor]

I've killed plenty as Utah

[keen plover]

Most stego players literally use hills, water, cliffs, rocks and trees

[glacial kraken]

and they've had the brain of a monkey

[keen plover]

I've never seen a stego player stay in the complete open and survive a utah pack over time

[primal harbor]

Just because you are very bad at Utah and good at other things that doesn't mean Utah doesn't need a nerd or other things don't need a buff lmao

[glacial kraken]

i dont bother with stegos anymore, they can just swing and hit you on the dismount now

[golden coral]

I do not think any oneshot between bigger animals is good, or well, between same size animals really. Because it can mean you win just due to luck if all you need is the one hit. Nothing should one shot something unless the power and size difference is sufficient. Even on the head I'd say (and yes, it's stupid that a stego would survive a rex bite on head, but I also don't think oneshots makes for fun or good combat, even between apexes. Or especially between them really).

[keen plover]

Which is funny, since this creature is meant to actually live in the open

[glacial kraken]

so what's the point lmfao

[golden coral]

Has it occured to you that you're maybe not as good at utah as you might think you are? :p

[primal harbor]

Yeah pretty much

[glacial kraken]

wanna go on a private server and try out some stuff?

[primal harbor]

Stego is kinda easy as utah

[keen plover]

After you burn through those 22 swings, you're dusted

Not even 22

Since raptors take stam to buck

[glacial kraken]

okay but lets say you land atleast half of them swings

[primal harbor]

And it's not like you can run from the situation either

[golden coral]

Yes, that's kind of what they should be able to. Wait until you find a trike or rex or something that does not have that sort of ability, then you might have better succcess. Also it should take a full pack to go after any apex really, which is 8 full adult utahs.

[glacial kraken]

that's 11 adult utahs you could've killed lmfao

[golden coral]

Sure.

[keen plover]

Yes, but that's where they bait swings and double pounce you so that you can only hit one of them on dismount. Also costs more stam to buck off with more on you iirc

[primal harbor]

Utah is also fast as hell and are actually smart against stegos

[golden coral]

It does, or should at least, from what I know.

[primal harbor]

You can Bait swings then bite easily

[keen plover]

I'm just saying, stego could be an even better anti flank creature, it's just odd to have it in this roster lol

[golden coral]

The thing is, utahs struggling vs stegos is how it should be. The fact that utahs can kill stegos as relatively easy as they can, is kind of bad, because it does not bode well for anything not stego or anky.

[keen plover]

Depends on player, but you could probably get a few off

[golden coral]

It is. Stego was a mistake to add.

[keen plover]

Hadrosaurs are dusted

RIP to para specifically lol

[primal harbor]

It should have been Kentro 100%

[keen plover]

Para doesn't have the speed of a maia and it also doesn't have the Bloodpool of a shant lol

[primal harbor]

Even kissen said yeah it's op because it's meant to take down other apexes so don't worry about the balance

SO WHY DID YOU ADD IT?????

[keen plover]

[primal harbor]

It should have been Kentro man

[keen plover]

Nothings stopping them from removing both stego and deino

[primal harbor]

Well I think deino I fine because it is completely water bound

[keen plover]

Literally can't balance them for this roster of smalls

[keen plover]

Hell nah

Deino sucks as equally as stego

[primal harbor]

And there are plenty of places in the map where when you know the map it is fine to drink

[golden coral]

Remove stego, downsize deino.

[primal harbor]

Not really

[golden coral]

Much better. Deino can be just fine at 4T.

[keen plover]

Yes, you need to downsize deino

I'd be fine with that

[golden coral]

If you downsize it, it can hide better at those shallower areas too.

[keen plover]

Since then carnos could kill it

and tenos, if it got cocky

[primal harbor]

Bro the current deino is already downsized 😭

[golden coral]

And even at 4T, you'd grab and drown everything else on the roster.

[golden coral]

It's not. It's upsized from what it was meant to be, or so I've heard. We were meant to get a smaller one, but people wanted big croc :p

[keen plover]

Nah, it's roughly the maximum iirc. 14T is not the largest anymore. 8-9T is

[primal harbor]

How long in meters is the current croc?

Cuz in game weights also just make no sense as well

[keen plover]

11.5m or something?

[primal harbor]

12 is the max

[golden coral]

And yeah, apparently deino wasn't quite as big as thought. So ours might be rather accurate after all.

[keen plover]

imo

Even if deino is large irl, it should be 4T with the roster

[primal harbor]

Fadeno tried making it 14 but that makes no sense, 11-12 meters is where it should be at

[golden coral]

But even if we could have bigger deino, it doesn't need it, and would function better for it's purpose at 4-6T or so.

[keen plover]

Yeah, you wouldn't need a carnivore larger than carno for ages as well or herbis

[golden coral]

6T would be fine, then you can drown stuff up to 3T, after which you probably shouldn't because well, no real counter, not so fun to die to a deino. And then you can still keep a smaller sized deino, make it hide better, and give it more speed and mobility, even on land.

[keen plover]

Nah. 4T is great. Large enough to drown things, small enough to get rocked by 2 carnos and tenos

[golden coral]

But 4T might be even better. Not like you need to be able to drown massive stuff to have fun I'm sure.

And unlike stego, you have your very own safety biome so you should be good even at smaller sizes, especially if you're meant to run from spinos anyway. A smaller deino could be faster and more agile maybe, hunting the other things in water easier.

[primal harbor]

Idk since deino literally needs the element of surprise and is completely waterbound AND is a cannibal I think it is perfectly fine, I'd say increase the damage so stego is actually afraid of the water before anything

Cuz if you know where the deino is it is not catching you for how slow it is

And you do not need to kill it

[golden coral]

The point is more so that with a smaller deino, you'd have a bit more options, and you'd still get to drown all of the current roster except stego.

And with a full roster, there'd be plenty of prey even at lower lunge limit.

[primal harbor]

Not really any smaller and I don't think it should be able to nab teno

That is why deino needs a drag limb mechanic

[keen plover]

4T deino could have more land stamina and speed. I think it would be fun change tbh. I'd love to see changes like this, even if it was a test

A period without stego

and a smaller deino

[primal harbor]

They won't do that and you know that :/

[keen plover]

I know

[golden coral]

From what I know, it's actually pretty fun to play as a smaller deino. Granted, the bigger ones eating you is an issue, but as for survivability and capability to hunt, at 4T you can absolutely play pretty well.

If they adjusted stamina to be better at that point, it would work out quite well I think.

[golden coral]

Yes. If they would test things like that, it'd be amazing!

[primal harbor]

OH MY GOD THE AUTO MOD HAS DELETE THE PAST 3 MESSAGES I HAVE TRIED SENDING IMMA KILL SOMEONE

What I was trying to say is so many people have complained about stego and the devs know it's meant to be up against other apexes so they really don't give a sh!t

[keen plover]

Sad

Truly sad

Well, not much we can do

[errant plinth]

the pesky video is outdated and theyre clearly going in a different direction, whether that is for better or worse remains to be seen, but considering utahs and stegos rule everything probably worse.

[winter iris]

lol, I read the messages and nobody said that
Still a good utah can now kill an average carno if fighting solo, no doubt. But saying that utah and carno are OK where they are now is simply denying facts. Teno is probably the only playable that is OK atm (very strong but maybe OK). I am not gonna talk about stego because it is all non sense about that playable

[glacial kraken]

idk... i still think it's just a skill issue...

[winter iris]

So you think that now utahs can take down more carnos because after the update all the utah players have increased their skill or because the code has been changed? Same way, did you think that all people playing carno became better at update 4.5? Skill is a part of videogames, and videogames aren't a real activity or sport in which skill is the biggest part (but still there's luck). When people discuss about things not working well, maybe it isn't about a skill issue, it is just that probably things can be changed for the better. I also don't like the fact that all the people using the term "skill issue" almost automatically put themselves in the category of those with skills (which I have seen in the past it's often not the case, also with people that are really good and one particular playable but not at others). So unless someone tells that he dies of starvation all the times or that he/she loses to smaller creatures all the times, then probably he/she may have a point so replying with "it's a skill issue" is really laughable.
I play utah as well, and denying that pounce and bleeding need to be adjusted is simply deny a fact. Of course if you just play utah, probably you like the fact that you can fight anything with little risk and that pounce can be spammed, but I also read yourself saying that there are too many carbo megapacks (which is currently not true, unless you'd like to have 5-6 carnos in an entire server everytime). What you can often see are, instead, utah megapacks, which are of course better than carno megapacks but they're still megapacks.
I am not very good at utah I think, but I find it a lot easier than carno to play for example

[urban birch]

If they make it to where Utah can’t pounce from the head I feel like issues will occur. I agree that it is bs but the hit boxes of the Dino’s are already so goofy I think it’ll make it really glitchy to pounce successfully. Just food for thought

[fresh laurel]

I mean pounce does have many counters

And a good amount of players dont have 3 nutrients or full hunger and thirst which helps utah

[glacial kraken]

That's exactly what I said, I think in theory changing it so they can't pounce the head/tail would be better but there would be issues because of ping

It'd hit client side but not server side so you'd just end up getting bugged like it was before

[neon willow]

Tbh I haven't seen a solo Utah kill an average or above average carno. The players who easily die as carno against 1 utah generally are in fact bad players.

This is speaking from experience playing both carno (which I am quite bad at and I know it) and Utah (which I am average at), and from watching other players play as Utah/carno. Half decent carnos are difficult for a single Utah to pin down, and have run me out of stamina and killed me before

Good carno players can even solo up to 3 Utah's and win depending on the skill/coordination of the utahs

Yesterday me and a friend killed an adult carno on our Utah's, but it killed me and got him down to <20 health when it finally keeled over from bleed

That being said their hunger drain is a bit insane and could use a nerf for multiple reasons:

1. so they can pick their fights (have better chance of winning) and aren't forced to try to fight everything they see to avoid starving

2. so they get some downtime to chill/nest

[obtuse ocean]

So what, 1 utah shouldt even try 1v1 carno, not even 2. 3v1 it should come down to skill, now its just way to easy to play utah and its no reason to play carno, since the pros of utah just outweighs the pros of carno by a mile. You say they can pick their fights, so can utahs. They can prob hunt 90% of the rooster when its out.

[primal harbor]

@marsh marsh why did you put a clock on it? pretty sure the devs have not confirmed this at all

am I wrong?

[twilit juniper]

Big happ that my post got some people talking about balance and skills again

[neon willow]

yeah, most (hopefully all) of the roster should be picking their fights. right now, carnos largely cant pick their fights because they're hungry constantly, and not taking every fight = starving. similarly, most 1-2 utah packs see carnos and turn and run rather than engage. you CAN kill a newer (read: unskilled) carno player with 2 utahs without too much trouble, but the same is true of every playable on the roster-- if you're unfamiliar with their combat style, you're going to suck at it. that's just the definition of being inexperienced

but like i said, i've seen more experienced carnos 1v3 utahs and win, so it heavily depends on skill and practice to get used to stam usage, sliding stops, and generally thinking ahead to be where you need to be on time

[keen plover]

@nimble valley My man. They already nerfed pachy headbutt to 100n lol. You can survive a knockdown easily. It's almost impossible to die to a pachy in 1 knockdown cycle

As long as you don't get a leg fracture, you're fine against a pachy 👍

[glacial kraken]

imo pachy is the most risk free fight to have if your a utah

they take so long to recover if they miss you can just constantly get bites in

[keen plover]

Yeah. It lacks the punch it needs

[glacial kraken]

and if you use pounce they just stand hardly any chance

[keen plover]

Exactly. Pachy needs to punish more. I wish you could actually aim fractures when knocked down

Feels rng when you try to leg fracture a raptor lol

[glacial kraken]

definitely

ive been hit on the side by a pachy as a utah and only gotten a body fracture

and vice versa, ive been a pachy going after a utah and hardly ever got a leg fracture

[keen plover]

Yeah

It's goofy, since that thing has the power of a pillow in comparison to before

[dusky surge]

utah mains could be capable of 1v1ing a rex with the advantage and still would find a way to call it underpowered

[keen plover]

It's kind of sad seeing them want nerfs to other creatures, when they can - idk? Group up with another raptor to secure the kill. Not like a pachy can actually run down a raptor. If anything needs a buff, it's pachy lol

[alpine plover]

If I can’t solo this 10 ton apex with my 450 kg lizard rat I will literally cancel the game

[keen plover]

Apparently raptor players don't like the idea of running away from some threats

[obtuse ocean]

They normally ask for a buff if they die

[river sierra]

The debate about Utahraptor strength has been going on for as long as I can remember this game. I think there is a simple rule here: Apex is obviously strong. Drio / Gypsy-tier - obviously weak. A Utahraptor is only as strong as the player on it. A person who calls a Utahraptor weak - first of all recognizes himself as weak.

And I think that such animals as the Utahraptor in its current state are needed by the game at least in the amount of 2-3 species. It's... a very specific experience. Ah, yes... I forgot the situation when 30 Utahraptors stray into a pack, but this is a general problem of the game.

[obtuse ocean]

Why do you say apex is obviously strong ? and utah is only as strong as the player ? Dont that go both ways, utah has insane agility/speed/stam/jump. Rex dont, it got health and power.

Fighting is easy as rex, but not the hunt/getting close thats easy for utah.

[river sierra]

We do not know what kind of control and capabilities the rex will have. I proceed from the fact that any mistake Utah most likely ends for him with instant death. Any bite of a large target will end in a one-shot for the Utah.

[winter iris]

pachy seems quite OK to me tbh. But I agree, many utah mains would complain about everything also when they're incredibly powerful

[winter iris]

exactly...you see those huge utah packs and then if someone dies they generally complain of herbivores huge herds or carno megapacks (for them 3 carnos is a megapack generally 😄 )

[river sierra]

But that doesn't make Utahraptor weak or strong. He's fine.

[winter iris]

yea I think utah is pretty much fine. I'd just slightly adjust a couple of things on pounce and probably that's it

[neon willow]

I mean they nerfed carno megapacking by nerfing their hunger. That's probably what it would take to nerf Utah megapacking, not rebalancing an individual utah

[winter iris]

but utah atm is definitely a strong playable

also because it's easy to play

[winter iris]

indeed...in my opinion also the fact that in the same update they adjusted pounce and made utah stronger (which is out of doubt), made many people shift towards playing utah rather than carno. This also reduced the carno population I believe

[river sierra]

Good Utahraptors almost never use pounce, it is very costly and risky to use, I would increase stamina costs but greatly increase the impact.

[winter iris]

the impact of pounce I think it's already quite strong tbh. What I'd change is the recovery time af6ter a failed pounce and I'd make basically impossible to pounce from the front or the back. Say I'd make the flanks and a 45 degrees angle from the flanks as a pounce hitbox. Other than that utah may be fine

[river sierra]

Don't get me wrong, if a Pachycephalosaurus hits your head, you're almost 100% dead. Likewise with the carnotaurus and its battering ram. Utahraptor is... doing... something?

[winter iris]

well, utah's [pounce is actually a lot more reliable than carno's ram or pachy's headbutt for example. Also it keeps making damage without even touching your opponent. Additioanlly, once it is on target there's no way it does less damage than expected. Pachy's headbutt not always provides fractures (the only fracture really providing an almost death sentence fracture is the leg one). Carno's ram is a lot more difficult to hit the target than with pounce, sometimes it's buggy and you have to be at max speed to use it (i.e. in a 1v1 fight can't be used in many cases as it is really an ambush weapon. Of course carno's ram provides a lot of damage , but unless it hits a utah's head you still need a ram and 2-3 bites to kill a utah depending on how precise the bites are. Pounce provides an insane amount of bleeding and unless another dino hits you during the pounce, you are untouchable, and the damage goes on without touching the opponent as I said. So it's definitely already a really powerful tool. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it shouldn't be strong, because I think it should definitely be very strong. I am just trying to highlight some facts in the game

[alpine plover]

They still didnt buff carno(at least the hunger drain) 🙂 but dont worry they fixed the chickens!

[stark knoll]

Balance passes don't get done every patch. This was for bug and crash fixes

[alpine plover]

My bad then

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, as it should. With that speed/agility/stam you have as utah to reduce the risk of a mistake. Im really bad utah player, but for me its just way to good/easy/fun to play right now compared to other dinos.

[urban birch]

A pachy v Utah 1v1 is 100% Utah sided.

[azure crescent]

I wouldn’t say 100%, but it should absolutely be more pachy sided than how it is right now

[urban birch]

^^^

[dreamy fiber]

I would say it's pachy sided. Which all is fine.

Like, sure, if a utah gets a ambush it's pretty cut and dry bit it set up the ambush and deserves it. Fighting a pachy 1v1 is basically suicide and I can happily play both sides of that fight even though I almost never play pachy.

2v2 is generally more utah sided in my experience.

Honestly 2 utah v anything starts to be a whole different ballgame to a 1v1, which makes sense.

[fresh laurel]

Think people forget that pounce has a lot of counters

[neon willow]

Honestly the Utah in general has quite a few counters. It's extremely glass cannon.

That being said would be nice for buck to actually be something you should be encouraged to use when fighting Utah's. Right now, it's kind of a last resort because of how insane the Stam drain is

I mean I guess that's part of balancing a fight-- don't want dinos to buck forever on every pounce, but man it needs a nerf. You can be fighting up to 8 Utah's, but one buck will drain half your stam

[golden coral]

The pounce itself does not have proper counters, buck is more of a danger to yourself than the utah. Sure, you can just hug a tree or rock, and then people complain about that instead, stupid as that is. Bucking should be the main go to to deal with being pounced, since terrain can be used for everyone and everything as it were.

[golden coral]

Yup, buck and even turn to the side, and your stam drain is increased. Do that a few times and you're almost all out of any ability to fight or do anything. So you're more likely to increased the risk of you dying than not if you use buck these days it seems.

[marsh marsh]

why did you not approve what I just wrote

[marsh marsh]

give me a good reason cmon

[golden coral]

@marsh marshIf I understood you correctly, you do not like that stegos can hit utahs on dismount? Which I think is fine that they can, stego would be the one animal that it would not be safe to pounce, precisely because it actually has a flank reaching attack that goes right where the utah want to attack (well, it, kentro and anky, but one has directly unsafe points to pounce to, and the other has armor to negate any effect anyway). And if you make it safe for utahs to attack stegos, it would mean ruin for pretty much every other apex tier that does not have such defenses in the first place. In general, stego and anky are not animals a utah pack should go after, much less with any form of ease/simplicity and safety.

[marsh marsh]

are you a stego player by any chance?XD

just a yes or no would be enough

[golden coral]

I am yes. Though lately I've been dryo and otherwise whatever eggs I can find and be nested as. Not that it has anything to do with the argument, or is otherwise relevant.

[marsh marsh]

enough said

[marsh marsh]

case closed

[golden coral]

I'm sorry if you dislike full answers, but I prefer to explain things properly.

I mean, you've yet to respond to the arguments or anything else properly, but I guess if you're not going to, for whatever reason, then sure.

[marsh marsh]

its a biased opinion of yours which is in no relevance to balanced gameplay and nowhere near to healthy amounts of realistic gameplay...

[golden coral]

It's not biased at all, since I've made clear arguments as to why it makes sense. And it is both balanced, and realistic. Utahs should not be hunting stegos, it is as terrible of an idea, almost, as hunting ankys. This based entirely on how the aimals function, irrespective of if I like or dislike them.

[marsh marsh]

sorry but no long explanation and such needed also am german its late and I just dont want to take the time explaining this to biased stego player

[marsh marsh]

oke after some sleep I will come back to this convo gn8

[golden coral]

Well, we're here for discussion, specifically to discuss feedback given.

Sure, whenever you think you're ready. :p

[neon willow]

Im not a stego player (tried it a few times, ended up deciding 6 hours to grow ain't it. I've never had an adult stego, and most of my experience with stegos has been fighting them as a Utah).

To be honest I agree with Erik on this one.

Have you ever actually tried to hit a pouncing Utah with a tail swipe? I'm not going to pretend it's the pinnacle of skill, but it's harder than it looks because the stego tail actually aims. And honestly, Utah pounce isn't exactly the pinnacle of skill atm either XD

The whole point of pounce is that it should be high risk, high reward (as is the entirety of the Utah build). And honestly, we're in kind of a bad balance spot because utahs are being forced to hunt adult stegos because they're almost the only playable that can atm-- even deinos really struggle. Stego really doesn't have any natural predators suited to it, and the gameplay needs that for things to balance out properly. Imo, a Utah pack shouldn't try to kill a full adult stego 90% of the time because it's too much risk and because you can guarantee a teno or carno meal much more easily, with food for the full pack as well

Being swiped with the only flank attack in the game atm is part of that risk, should you choose to hunt a stego, ESPECIALLY because a stego cannot chase utahs that decide they'd rather skip and go elsewhere for a meal. Stego really can't outrun anything except deino, and it's attacks reflect that, including it's ability to tail swipe Utah's on dismount

[golden coral]

We're lacking a bunch of much more fitting playables from the roster. When we have that, there's very little reason, if any, for a utah pack to hunt any of the apexes really, seeing as there's a good few mids of different sizes to go after as well.

[neon willow]

^

[golden coral]

People just have this idea that utah should be the apex killer, for some reason. Not sure if it's JP fault, something with legacy, or where that really comes from. :p

But yeah, not only will full roster have a bunch of better suited, and still quite large prey, but then you'd also have the other apexes, some of which would be more suited to utah packs. So, claiming that stego, and anky for that matter, are terrible choices due to their weaponry and armor is hardly strange, any more than claiming that going after a deino or spino, or cheirus that are in the water is less than ideal.

[neon willow]

I'll be entirely honest, unless I was a deino, I've never had any issues with avoiding trouble because I pick my fights and don't try to just kill everything that moves. I evaluate if I have a good chance of success first. And imo, risking potentially half your pack on a stego isn't worth it because usually tenos and carnos are common enough that I can safely choose to hunt those instead to fulfill my hunger

[golden coral]

You know that's not how Isle players think. If they see something, they have to kill it, even if it puts itself in a position where it is almost untouchable. It's more logical to complain, than to go "Okay, lets find something else then". (Even stegos do the same to deinos, despite the fact that you're not getting one that isn't willing to engage, and it makes no sense either).

[fickle cliff]

Bleed being it's own pool is such a weird mechanic.

Like really, It's like having two vials of blood you need to worry about. lol.

Shouldn't bleed drain your actual health? Not be able to 'bleed out' but still be 'full health' ... ?

[slim dragon]

So you think that if you lose a lot of blood, then you stub your toe and you die is more realistic ?

Health is the amount of body and organ trauma your dino can handle. Bleeding out doesn't make your heart explode, that's why it doesn't damage health. But bleeding affects other stats. Like the amount of blood you have left directly affects your stamina regeneration (and maybe consumption too)

[fickle cliff]

yes

[marsh marsh]

So to come back to this convo in my honest opinion the way the game is now it should be doable with enough skill to take on stego 1.stego is on utahs diet rn 2.its a game its supposed to be fun getting one hitted without skill is not fun 3.stego is not finished as are its predators so why is he capable of all that power without a real threat think about it

[slim dragon]

1 utah should definitely not be killing a stego
And a pack can already do it

[marsh marsh]

But well for me personally I will from now on just let the stegos life their boring untouchable life until they die of boredom and many more should just ignore them so it gets even more boring to play this lame creature(atm its lame) and hope that they will bring a stego predator soon

[marsh marsh]

Ignoring what I am saying honestly

[marsh marsh]

Never speaked of 1 utah kill a stego

[slim dragon]

Sounded like it from your last message, mb

[marsh marsh]

If you say so

[marsh marsh]

Idk how some cant see that maybe biased maybe not very intelligent Idk but even if youre going 8 utahs against 1 or 2 stego how is it fair that they can just camp and if someone pounces they are dead cuz 1 hot swing as you jump right off zero effort zero skill its freakin game after all how is that fun how is that balanced

[slim dragon]

Other raptors can attack, distract the stego (and even pounce too) while the first one is pouncing
Since stego isn't able to run away from any threat and a lone one can be attacked by no less than 20 utahs at once, it makes sense that it has a chance to fight them off

Also doesn't pounce do a micro-stun now ? If they time it right I believe that if a raptor jumps off while another latches on, the stego can't kill them on dismount

[marsh marsh]

What I am saying is about dismount only its an unfair penalty for playing as you should as utah
But I guess its a skill issue stego players just want the easy life
So ye keep defending 1 hit dismount kill if it makes you happy I wont be wasting time on this ridiculous take that its healthy for the game anymore

[slim dragon]

The problem isn't that stego can kill utahs easily
It is that utahs have nothing else to hunt among large animals

[marsh marsh]

Gosh I am okay with one mistake leading to death its just if you pounce and jump off stego can just 1 hit on dismount without zero effort and skill
But you lack the understanding obviously and I lack time and interest on the topic so cya have a good one

[slim dragon]

Good night, argument-less fellow

[marsh marsh]

Oh wow classy
Where were your arguments huh dont see any valid

[slim dragon]

Just scroll up

[marsh marsh]

Did saw nothing

[slim dragon]

Squint your eyes

[obtuse ocean]

Well hunting larges animals should be incredible hard as utah, with that speed/agility. As utah you have the luxery to choose what to fight and what to run from. Bigger dinos dont have that , they need to take what fight comes to them.

[slim dragon]

Yet some people don't understand that

[dreamy fiber]

@primal harbor because having bleed as a separate health pool means it encourages different playstyles both on the offensive and on the defensive.

Dinos which focus on bleed damage are better suited to prolonging the fight as long as possible. Bleeder would be pushed to attack more than they needed to if bleed was just delayed health damage. On the defensive, you need to learn to manage your stamina differently and decide, especially for utah, if bucking is worth it. Utahs don't present a major threat to a decent health pool, but the blood pools are generally pretty low. This means that bleeder present their own variety of threat which.. Well it mixes up the gameplay.

I don't know why you'd want it to be the same across the board. It didn't really work very well in legacy and the way bleed was handled was painfully boring and slow by comparison.

[analog mirage]

Pounce used to be damage based and it was horrible, you could kill a stego with just 4 Utahs with full pounces

[golden coral]

You can kill stegos as utah as it stands, so if that is your concern, then you need not worry. And yes, it's in your diet, but I do have to point out that diet doesn't mean "kill full grown", especially not in the case of an animal that does take a while to grow and has a decent amount of time where it's far more vunerable than not. And you're right, games are meant to be fun, getting one shot isn't always fun (though it has little to do with if it's skill or not, damage does not relate to skill). Just look at deino, lunge = one shot entire roster except grown stegos and deinos. And with even less counterplay, if any, than there is vs a stego jab since you can bait and juke the jab. And if you want to argue real threats, then deino and stego are the same. The only thing a grown deino fears is another deino or two. The only thing a grown stego fears, is another stego or two (and the aforementioned utah packs that deino does not need to worry about at all of course). All in all, if you want to compare "power level" then deino is the far more "OP" playable between it and stego.

But this wasn't your main argument earlier, it was about if stego should be able to hit a utah on mount/dismount or not, and it should, due to reasons stated earlier. It makes sense, the stego is one of the three animals that has that kind of attack (and I do believe it had more flexibility and reach than anky, which doesn't matter to the anky cause armor anyway). And as also pointed out, if you make utahs safe from the one animal they should not be safe from, then you're giving them far too much power over the rest of the roster that has no such defenses in the first place. And for your last argument, well, I could say the same about deino, it's just as boring. When you're grown, there's not much fun to do. Nothing except another deino is a real threat to you, and you can fight everything but stego on land. And then there's ptera, an almost invincible living spectator cam, as fun as that is.

[golden coral]

If you're going up against two stegos, then you should lose. Just like you should vs two rexes or trikes or something. Hunt the solo ones, in a full pack, and expect losses. The statement concerning rex was basically "You'll need 20 utahs, and you'll lose half of them before the rex dies" and this was against AI rex. So, I think there's reason to believe that losses might be part of hunting an apex. And some apexes are more dangerous to hunt than others at that. (Such as hunting deinos, good luck on that, they can fight you off perfectly fine on land, and if they somehow end up in trouble, they just go into the river and there's nothing you can do to get them. At least stego is still on the ground and has to go get food and water, while the deino has everything in the river).

[marsh marsh]

Aight you do have some fair points and I also thought about it for a while and I have to say I will just take it as dont attack adults and you're good
I was kinda tired and tilted cuz of all the bugs lags and dcs that happened earlier I have to admit and maybe thats why I didnt see it clearly so yeah my apologies for accusing you being biased before

[golden coral]

Also, hitting a utah on dismount does take some effort and skill, since you need to time the attack. You can't just spam and hope for the best (well, you can spam I guess, but then you'll be out of stamina and die sooner rather than later, so that's not exactly a smart thing to do). Now compare hitting the utah on dismount with utah hitting the pounce, now there's an ability that takes barely any effort, much less skill, what with the magnetic pounce and being able to land it from pretty much every angle.

[marsh marsh]

I see anyways thanks for your insight appreciate it^^

[golden coral]

@marsh marshIf we had trike, you'd see what I mean with the flank vs no flank defense. Unfortunately, right now we do lack the roster where utah would shine. But just remember, we're getting things like trike, para, and all the mid tiers. Lots of prey, not quite as tanky, but still very large compared to utahs, and with much less ability to defend themselves.

[marsh marsh]

Yeah I guess I should play stego at least to get to know some weaknesses and certain situatuions you can be in

[marsh marsh]

So its an issue I always thinking about the roster and ecosystem isnt ready for most of its possibilies right???

[marsh marsh]

Possibilities

[golden coral]

Pretty much. It's more so that the roster choices are kind of bad for utahs to hunt. Stego should not be hunted (as I said, only anky would be worse). Deino is well, untouchable, even more so than stego (since it has no real reason to be on land at that, no migration or anything). Then you got pachy, who's designed as a fighter, being agile enough to take on utah and has been seen as a "utah counter" in a sense. Then there's teno, an animal that is a good size to hunt, but dangerous due to being a vicious fighter with a good set of attacks. And then you got carno, the designated small game hunter that should be taking on utahs and pachies and other in that size range and come out on top. Meanwhile, if we had maia, diablo, galli, and so on, you'd have much better choices and success in the hunts.

Dryos would be good to hunt, but dryos tend to be somewhat rare. :p

[neon willow]

Basically yeah. I think Utah has stego on its diet rn because the other things it would be so much better suited for aren't on the roster yet. Teno and carno atm are really the bulk of Utah diet... And the occasional baby stego

Similarly, the dinos that would be suited for stego hunting aren't here either yet

But really, if you think about it-- Utah pounces interact with the side of creatures. Why should Utah hunt the only dino in game with a side attack (stego tail swipe)

[marsh marsh]

Yea I get that now and deleted post

But thanks for clearing things up for me and take your time;)

[primal harbor]

That is fair

[urban birch]

I skilled pack of utahs who are communicating with each other can rip through a stegos bleed pool. If you time ur dismounts correctly and don’t fall for the buck bait u can get off safely. Don’t pounce stegos in a forest and don’t dismount on a hill and you are out of their hit box by shift s’ing on the dismount looking toward the steg. It’s a big animal against a significantly smaller Utah. Why wouldn’t it be one shot?

[marsh marsh]

Look I already stated that its fine👆🤣

[marsh marsh]

👍

[urban birch]

I saw that after I posted but figured we could talk anyway 😂 I be bored in class

[marsh marsh]

Ye no worries^^

[tall bronze]

Fracture severities are already planned according to Punch

[cloud ember]

Allo needs to be added as a direct counter to stego.

[barren shard]

Why

Stego isn’t op

[spare badger]

It's also immune to all other playables, making it inherently unbalanced, even if you only avoid them, because only other stegos can touch them, meaning servers can quickly become overrun with them

[analog mirage]

Honestly my only issue with stego is the corpse gaurding

[dreamy fiber]

It's not immune, but it doesn't exactly fit the roster rn either. Official servers are often too chaotic to have a coordinated group take on a stego with any decent success rates, though I see groups take them down plenty elsewhere. Officials just aren't a good environment to encourage that.

The same argument could be said for deino but I feel like deino provides and acts more like an environmental threat so honestly it feels kinda cool.

[glacial kraken]

tbh after testing out stego and 1v1ing them a fair few times i'd only like a couple of changes

the side swing made to a base 2 second delay rather than the current 1 second

and the bloodpool being nerfed a bit...

maybe the hp down a bit as well tbf- but i think stego would atleast become a bit more managable...

[analog mirage]

Stego doesn’t need a tail cooldown cause that’ll give Utah way too many openings to pounce. Also stego is supposed to be good at covering its flanks so tbh, trike is a better option for Utahs to hunt than a Stego and making it easier to hunt doesn’t solve the issues with it, just makes it more frustrating when a pack of Utahs shows up

While that sounds fine on the Utahs side. Imagine how frustrating it’ll be to wait that long just to swing

[glacial kraken]

i mean, they're already the strongest thing atm, if anything I think it'd be better

it'd mean they cant just swing their 1 ton+ tail around every second 😂

[analog mirage]

Don’t pounce on the side they swing, if someone baits an attack, go for the other side

I find it’s fine

[glacial kraken]

1 second isnt enough time to land an attack at all though...

even if you run from the other side and someone else baits you'll still get hit

[analog mirage]

It’s enough time if you have it surrounded

[glacial kraken]

1 second isnt enough time

[analog mirage]

If you always have someone on each side it works fine

[glacial kraken]

the other 2s and 3s cooldown is enough

but the 1s side cooldown isnt

[analog mirage]

Again, why does it need a cooldown if it’s already fine with baiting attacks and attacking from the side it didn’t swing

If you walk away from them you live. Literally the only issue with stego is body gaurding which could be fixed with gore. And standing in rivers to kill deino which just make rivers deeper at the sides

Most times if you leave the stego for like 5-10 min it’ll usually leave and you get the body

[glacial kraken]

so what your saying is, the herbi that 1 shots anything under 500 kg and 2-3 shots everything else is okay left as it is and doesn't need any type of change?

[analog mirage]

I mean, a psuedo apex animal sure makes sense one shotting a small animal like Utah or teno

Now do I agree with it being added no, but it’s not as bad as people say cause there’s ways to get around it

It’s like saying Rex shouldn’t one shot Utah cause it’s unfair

[glacial kraken]

there are ways to avoid it, yes but that could be the same for anything

nono, i agree with it 1 shotting utahs

i think that's okay

i just think the delay should be changed and the blood res nerfed a bit

[analog mirage]

It’s usually your own fault for going up to a stego and allowing it to hit you

[glacial kraken]

💀

[analog mirage]

Just saying

There’s just no scenario where the swing needs a cooldown where you couldn’t avoid it all

[glacial kraken]

i just dont see how a dino swinging a 1ton+ tail 22 times in a row with a 1s cooldown is realistic

[analog mirage]

It’s fair in a sense

[glacial kraken]

the 1 shotting utahs is definitely realistic though and shouldnt be changed

[analog mirage]

It uses stamina at its own cost so it has to pay attention of where it’s swinging. Mess up too many times and you are done.

Just give me a situation where stego needs a cooldown on attacks

[glacial kraken]

not really, the stam regen on stego is pretty good, you dont have to worry about stamina at all imo

you can legit sit in water and regain it

deinos are too afraid to even attack you most of the time

[glacial kraken]

give me a situation where not having a cd on a stego swing is realistic

[analog mirage]

Hmmm. Deino a animal who has horrible combat abilities is afraid of fighting a spike monster

I wonder why

[analog mirage]

Anything. If you can avoid it and walk away there’s no need for the cooldown. If you actively go to fight it that’s your own risk

[glacial kraken]

so your saying carnivores shouldnt be trying to attack herbivores?

and just leave them alone?

wow what a good idea

[analog mirage]

No. But carnivores much much smaller than stego shouldn’t go after it

Utah being an exception

[glacial kraken]

huh?

[analog mirage]

Why would anything in the current roster need to hunt a stego besides Utah

[glacial kraken]

there's only 2 things that can hunt a stego atm and that's utahs and carnos

and carnos have it rough af against a stego

[analog mirage]

Carno shouldn’t be even attempting that

[glacial kraken]

most utahs dont even know the tail swing delays so they just die within the first second

im telling you bro, it's way too quick

even if it got changed it wouldnt make much of a difference though, they can just tank through like 4 pounces then slowly walk to a cliff or water

then wait there til they heal and throw all the utahs off

😂

[analog mirage]

That’s using the environment to your advantage

[glacial kraken]

so you dont think tanking 4 pounces and being completely fine is a bit strong?

[analog mirage]

If it tanks four full pounces it’s gonna bleed like crap

[glacial kraken]

i was 1v1ing my friend yesterday, he was playing stego and i was playing utah, i landed about 3 pounces and around 20-30 bites on the head

we got bored after 20 minutes

[analog mirage]

That’s just not a realistic matchup

[glacial kraken]

he was only at 50% bleed

[analog mirage]

One Utah vs a stego is a slow process

[glacial kraken]

ik but just look at the stats, 3 full pounces, 30 bites

[analog mirage]

That’s why Utah is a pack hunter

[glacial kraken]

and still 50% bleed

[analog mirage]

Don’t attack it by yourself. Simple

Utah isn’t meant to 1v1 large animals

[glacial kraken]

so you think a stego being able to tank 6 pounces and 60 bites is balanced?

over a course of 20m*

[analog mirage]

If it’s one Utah doing all the work sure

If it’s multiple that’ll stack up quick, now you are 50% bleed in 10 minutes

[glacial kraken]

even if it's 6 utahs, that means each utah has to land 10 bites and a pounce each

[glacial kraken]

it dont work like that chief

[analog mirage]

If one Utah pounces at a time, you gotta pounce, regain stamina, pounce again. Which takes time

If multiple pounce at one or continuously after each other that stacks up faster than waiting over the course of a minute to regain stamina

[glacial kraken]

okay, but on the other note if you did all 6 pounces and landed the bites in a minute

they'd just heal bleed in another 3 minutes

[analog mirage]

It’s also gonna bleed like crap and be super low at that point

Continue the pressure and don’t allow it to heal

[glacial kraken]

it wouldnt

[analog mirage]

I recommend doing more packs of Utahs vs a stego and see how that goes instead of 1v1 which should be entirely on the stegos side

[glacial kraken]

sure if you know any people that wanna test it with me im down

[analog mirage]

Watch any YouTube video of Utahs vs stego

Actually

[glacial kraken]

i think dbear did a few but they're all outdated now

[analog mirage]

In this video I made it’s a perfect example

https://youtu.be/IgJGB884MG4

It’s somewhere in their, we kill a stego easily

[glacial kraken]

they were already fighting it before you got there

you dont know how long they were there for lol

also definitely a bad stego

it had the choice of cliffs and a river and went to neither

[analog mirage]

Then that’s n the stegos part

And as I said, having multiple Utahs gets the job done

[dreamy fiber]

Stego v utah is super doable, people on official just, you know, aren't very good or coordinated usually.

The matchup to me, with the servers I play on, is fine. On official idk, I don't think that stegos have turned out particularly healthy for them just because of the way officials are. You're there for a long time fighting something like a stego, you're bound to be interrupted. It's more trouble than it's worth more often than not, but that's kind of the pony of being something like stego.

I still standby that it wasn't a good addition though, at this point in time. It's exactly the fact thst it's terrestrial and more trouble than it's worth thst puts it on being in a position to corpse guard and annoy people. But we have it and it's here to stay for the foreseeable future

[glacial kraken]

Yeah, fighting a stego as a utah is definitely doable once you know how, it just takes so long and they usually just end up camping somewhere 😂

[analog mirage]

I mean yeah, I’m not saying Utah vs stego 1v1 is impossible. It’s just obviously gonna take a long time but it’s doable.

Most Utahs are just better off hunting in packs which will kill a stego much quicker

[hasty coyote]

I think the main issue with stego is that it literally counters everything in the roster currently, but anything that could hunt it would have nothing else to hunt.
Amazing flank protection from utahs, too big and 1-shots carnos, outside deino’s kill range and deals too much damage while protecting its weak point, too big for pachy to break, and has much more stats than teno.

Then, anything that can hunt stego has nothing else to hunt, they’re just too big and slow.

[analog mirage]

Well Carno doesn’t have any reason to hunt it, Utah is fine as it is hunting Stego, Deino while it shouldn’t be able to straight up facetank tail hits it should definitely get scaled fracture on the lunge or a tug of war mechanic for larger animals

I think people just have too much of a mindset of “it’s alive and I need to kill it” which is not a smart playbook

[hasty coyote]

I’m not saying it’s impossible to kill stegos, just that it’s basically one of the worst targets to fight for most the roster.

[ocean sentinel]

It's not a smart play book for survival, but it's reasonable considering the dead screen time this game suffers from.

The last thing anyone wants to do is to run into nothing for an hour, and then bump into something they can't interact with.

[analog mirage]

Tbf it should still be a challenge to hunt large animal which it is, so making them much easier takes away the point of them being challenging to take down

[ocean sentinel]

Yeah they definitely shouldn't be easy

[analog mirage]

So like I said. Stego itself is fine, it’s just able to abuse corpse gaurding and the water

Which can be fixed with deeper rivers at the shoreline and perhaps rotting bodys will help keep stego away

[hasty coyote]

Yeah it should be challenging, I’m just pointing out it also is one of the worst apexes to fight for most of our current species.

[analog mirage]

That’s cause it’s a animal specializing in covering it’s flanks. Honestly trike is a better option for Utah than stego

[hasty coyote]

Exactly. Hopefully we can get solid mid-tiers soon, they will at least have a better chance of dealing with stego.

[obtuse ocean]

dealing with stegos? Are they hunting you down or something ? Like utahs can do

Im guessing you are the one who choose to fight it

[analog mirage]

Exactly

You can literally avoid it and have no reason to hunt it other than Utah who has it for diet

[glacial kraken]

diets are getting fully changed soon, it'll be fun to see what buffs a stego will give to carnis

[dreamy fiber]

Stegos shouldn't be easy, but they just don't fit in with the official roster. I've never seen a stego actually be hunted on official and most are too wussy to try that I've tried to get on board. On top of that, which is fine but, its super easy to maintain being a herbivore, far easier than a Carno which presents considerably less issues and was Carno got hit for its hunger hard.

This is a problem. While I would be perfectly happy leaving stego as-is this status it has enables it to do the things people don't like about stego and that kind of ruin the game for some people. While it is a challenge to others, playing stego itself does not embody the survival spirit and frankly its super status practically encourages it to act against everything the devs want.

So they could go the way of the Carno and make stego more difficult to maintain, though that'd probably just cause frustration too.

Or they could weaken it to fit with the roster until stegos will feel pressured to sit out on the open and do dumb things less

And.. There's probably other options but I can't think of them

[hasty coyote]

I just meant like something that can hunt them consistently, I’m not the type of person to fight a stego and cry when I die. I just want it to actually be able to interact with things rather than be a “no go zone” that people just use to troll.

[neon willow]

Yeah I really think stegos should need to eat a LOT more than they currently do. Most megafauna herbivores spend the majority of their day eating simply because plants aren't the most calorie dense food. Look at horses, cattle, zebras, giraffes, elephants, deer, moose, gorillas, etc. It will also give them something to do beyond camping bodies and griefing carnivores that don't really want to fight (while still allowing them to hand out a can of kick booty when they need to).

Having predators that consistently hunt stego would be nice too, though I think it will be a while because creating new playables takes a long time.

(As an aside I have seen some Utah packs hunt adult stegos on official servers and win, but those tend to not be very good stego players.... For any semi experienced stego, it's not hard to stall out the fight indefinitely. Which, coincidentally, is one of the reasons most Utah's don't bother with stegos- too much work/time, extremely high risk, and more often than not the fight stalls out and you have to try to go hunt something else)

[golden coral]

The fact that you can have up to 5 stegos in a group is very odd, to say the least. Why are stegos not limited to a pair, like deinos, in the first place?

So yes, they could do with a limit on groups and the upkeep costs to fit with that. There's no reason any apex should come in more than a pair really.

[neon willow]

Idk I'd compare using a Utah pack to hunt a stego to using a pocket knife to open a tin can. I mean sure, you can do it, but not without difficulty. It's awkward, and at the end of the day there are other tools better suited for it

[zealous citrus]

i mean herding dino i dont really see trike shant or any other apex herbi being limited to 2 besides not like more than 2 deinos cant fight something

[golden coral]

Herding, sure, but, not for apexes. You think having a herd of trikes or shants is going to be good? I have a hard time believing that'll be good for balance and the ecosystem at all.

Unless you want the predatory apexes to come in groups as well, but I at least do not want to see packs of rexes or gigas so.

[neon willow]

Honestly all of the herbis have kind of ridiculous group sizes. Teno is roughly equivalent to carno in fighting power, so why can you pack 8 tenos but only 3 carnos? Why 5 stegos but only 2 deino?

I realize herbivores typically herd, but it results in some really uneven fights because they're not balanced around having larger group sizes

[golden coral]

And better targets for your tool at that. :p

[neon willow]

Well that's why the analogy holds up lol

[golden coral]

To be fair, I don't think the teno/carno comparison is that good, since teno is kind of the upper size for carnos to hunt anyway. Pachy/utah might be better to look at there.

[zealous citrus]

i dont think anyone follows the group limits that are placed anyway

[golden coral]

Though deino/stego works too, simply due to their size and power.

Well no, they don't, because limits don't mean anything right now. But that should probably be adjusted, somehow...

[zealous citrus]

husting stego as deino not even worth it you get the same diet as fish

[neon willow]

Well but even that's not entirely fair because Utah's hunting style is largely dependent on group behavior

[golden coral]

Well no, deinos shouldn't be hunting anything more than half their weight, as it stands with current mechanics at least. But aside from their specific hunting mechanic, they are pretty much apexes and so, shouldn't really come in numbers either.

[golden coral]

True, just think it's a better comparison than carno vs teno.

[neon willow]

Honestly I think the easiest way to enforce it group limits is up food requirements and/or limit diet spawning.

At the end of the day, people are gonna play with their friends no matter what the group limit is, but the group limit should ideally be "this is how big of an adult group size you can sustain while traveling together for food or you will start to starve due to not finding enough to fill everyone up"

[golden coral]

Hopefully the migration system will fix that. Otherwise there's some ideas with affinity that could work I guess, increasing food drain if you're around other ungrouped individuals or something like that.

[errant plinth]

i would argue stegosaurus shouldnt be able to group but thats just me being salty that theyre the unchallenged king of the island for the foreseeable future.

like its gonna be a while before there is anything that will make a stego nervous besides another stego

[dreamy fiber]

Teno having some advantages makes sense. People need to be heavily encouraged to pick herbivore. More people will more readily try out Carno to teno, so honestly I'm okay with where those two sit.

Stego doesn't deserve 5 tho. I think for now the group size is best at being alone, or two at most.

[neon willow]

Well the point was that, for similar sized/power leveled animals, for some reason herbis in general get MUCH larger groups than a roughly equivalent carnivore. Teno 8/carno 3 for example, or more relevant to the discussion at hand, stego 5/deino 2.

I'm all for herbis getting advantages for being herbis because they're less popular than carnis, but a group ratio of 2.5 herbis per carni of the same tier is a little excessive lol

Pachy being the notable exception, with the ratio being pachy 8/utah 8

It would make more sense to give tenos a group limit of 5-6, and stegos a limit of 2-3. Still at a pretty nice numerical advantage over carnis, but not overly so

[hasty coyote]

I think the thing is that carno needs a smaller group size to not be overly oppressively against smalls, thats why theres so much to try and limit their packs. A pachy can break and run from a carno generally, but what is it supposed to do against 2 carno? What is a herd of 5 pachies supposed to do when 5 carnos show up and steamroll them? What about other smalls that have literally no way to defend themselves other than RUN, which carno directly counters. What happens to the herd of dryos when 3+ carnos show up? So carno is a bit of an outlier because it needs smaller groups. Thats why teno:carno ratio so feels off.

Stego on the other hand, defintely should be 2-3.

[winter iris]

honestly speaking i think the same. It makes you understand how much utah is actually over tuned compared to what it should be. Utah mains keep saying that utah is fine how it is, but I play utah and other playbles, and utah is by far the strongest (especially compared to its size, and the easiest - hence why you see megapcks). Utah can enjoy a 1v1 against pretty much everything, and that's just wrong I think. I also think that fighting stego is so f'kin boring because of how long it takes. the one thing that drive me crazy is why utah mains think the should be able to 1v1 anything to think the game is balanced (it's just not like that)

[tranquil pawn]

@spiral girder More starvation is the absolute least thing we need, carnivores need to hunt every waking moment ingame already

[winter iris]

only carno needs to hunt in every moment.. Utah hunger is actually very slow

[tranquil pawn]

Well fair enough but if we make them also starve quicker then it'll be the carno situation all over again, it doesn't stop megapacks it just makes them worse, KOSing every single thing they see and also making solo players live through hell

[spiral girder]

You'll never stop KOSing regardless of their hunger. Some people just like to pvp. If you don't want KOSing, then you need to play on unofficial servers that do semi realism rules.

[tranquil pawn]

Ew semirealism

Anywho, gotta roll, cya mates

[spiral girder]

Lol doesn't want KOS but also doesn't want semi realism. XD

[winter iris]

again, Carno has been hugely nerfed compared to update 4.5, so also a reverse of hunger to the previous update wouldn't make the situation as it was. Additionally utah is way stronger than update 4.5, so that would help as well. Having said that, I wouldn't make canro hunger as in update 4.5 to avoid problems, but the idea of carno being back to update4.5 is just a myth.. If devs didn't nerf carno (except blood pool) you also wouldn't have the same situation just because of how stronger utah's pounce is, so, what are we really talking about?

[winter iris]

for example, now you have plenty of utah mega packs that kill pretty much everything that moves (I have been in those packs, and there's no escape basically). Is anyone complaining about utah megapcks? No. The main reason is that people have their own idea of what the game should look like, and they make comments based on that idea (i.e. bias). The game is simply the outcome of the code the devs decide to adopt, that's it. Then there's a part due to skill, but mainly is just the code

[hasty coyote]

@lunar thunder oh its worse, it takes 5 rams to kill a utah, unless you get one as a headshot and the restas body. However, you generally hit an alt swing into a ram, so it only takes like 3 knockdown+ram since you deal 160 damage, unless you get really unlucky and hit the tail/legs a few times, then it takes 4

[primal harbor]

@light zephyr they are planning on it

[lunar thunder]

Oh i didnt knew it was 5. Sometimes it glitches and the utah keeps running when its stunned on the floor and you cant hit it with alt swing.

[hasty coyote]

yeah, pachy ram does 100 damage, and utah has 450 hp

also, that bug where it keeps running is desync. You hit it on your side, but the server didnt think you did, so they play the animation but aren't affected by it at all

[lunar thunder]

damn that its even worse

[small herald]

If your a teno how do you defend against utahs if you are not by a rock that you can jump on to? I’ve tried to circle and buck when I’ve pounce but good utahs will still angle there dismount away from me and I can’t hit them. This makes me keep my teno in the se part of the map since if I ever leave I get killed by packs of 5+ utahs

[glacial kraken]

#balance-feedback message

@lunar thunder

i'm pretty sure it only takes 2 rams to kill a utah as a pachy

because they get knocked down you can get another 1-2 hits

so the first knock they get to half hp, the second knock they die

only thing i think pachy needs is leg breaks easier to hit, I've played pachy vs teno and utah and it's so difficult to break their legs sometimes, even when I slam right into their leg it still only breaks their body sometimes

[lunar thunder]

Well i played pachy many times when update 5 released and it was like 3 to 4 rams to kill utahs. The worst part is that if a utah pounces you and gets knocked down because it ran out of stamina with all the swings and rams that you can do while its on the floor you cant kill it and you will be on like 30% of bleeding. What im going with this is that if a utah gets the WORST punishment on a pounce it gets advintage from that punishment and then it only takes a quick pounce to bleed you out

Maybe in update 4 it was less rams but with the big nerf that the pachy got in update 5 it got worse.

[hasty coyote]

That’s just wrong. Generally, you lead with an alt and then hit a ram. Alt does 60, charged ram does 100. So that’s just over 1/3 of a Utah’s 450 hp. If you managed to hit a utah with a charged ram into charged ram, that’s still only 200 damage, which will leave utah with 50 hp after the second one. The only way you can 2-shot a utah is by hitting headshots and body shots only, which generally isn’t realistic. You’re going to hit the legs and tail a lot unless the utah is just bad and runs straight into your attacks.

Even then, the utah can generally just run away the moment you hit them once, meanwhile pachy is forced to fight til the utah dies.

[hasty coyote]

I have 3 tips that may help.
1: you can try and tail slam them mid-air during pounce, but that’s a bit finicky and a good utah will just point blank pounce.
2: try to move as little as possible, unless you’re running to better terrain, moving while bleeding makes you take MUCH more bleed.
3: abuse terrain. If there’s a cliff, tree, rock, or river, use those to your advantage. You can scrape utahs off with trees and cause them to fall, making them easy kill with kick+tailslam. Water makes it so utahs can only approach from one side, but be wary of crocs. You can just dump a utah off a cliff by just turning when they pounce you. Lastly, a rock is a good way to both funnel them towards 1 side, and you can give them to dismount and get stuck on the rock..

[small herald]

I guess I meant more when I get caught in open plains.

I’ve killed plenty of Utahs with terrain I just can’t if I don’t have a rock or a hill

[hasty coyote]

There’s generally palm trees and bushes there, go to those. Or do what I said and tail slam them mid air.

Otherwise idk much else, I’m not the best teno either.

[glacial kraken]

i mean, im down to test it if you'd like

i dont know the exact stats but usually when i fight pachys 2-3 downs and you're dead

[hasty coyote]

I literally have the numbers

[small herald]

I have a hard time mocking them off with a palm tree it never does it for me

[hasty coyote]

I have already tested this stuff

[glacial kraken]

but I haven't so it'd be nice for me also :)

[hasty coyote]

Yeah same, I think you have to approach it from an angle.

[hasty coyote]

Sure then, give me like an hour

[glacial kraken]

wont be on in an hour sorry bro

ill be back on in probs like 4-5 hours

[hasty coyote]

K, if you want just ping me then. I’ll see if I can get on.

[dreamy fiber]

While I agree to some extent, utah packs on official in my experience tend to suck extremely badly. There is a precedent for utah being stronger than it seems given it's intended to be something that takes on things larger than itself and targets the bleed pool rather than the health pool - presumably other bleeders will also be powerful in this way but we don't yet have a good comparison point.

However, despite being strong they're very frail. They should probably be even more frail if I'm honest, but they're frail enough. They're a good entry-level dinosaur which is kind of important to have. We don't quite know how they stack up until we get other bleeders though

[tulip pond]

Ive just lost my carno to lag 86% adult the lag is so annoying!!!

Its just like

[winter iris]

the argument that utah targets bloodpool and not hp, honestly is bs...bloodpool is, in the end, the same thing as hp in another form and it's simply a lot weaker. Everything that kills you when drained is just your health in game. The fact that utah can target blood pool instead of hp just makes things 1 easier for utahs because of how much weaker blood pool is compared to hp and because of the fact that bleeding keeps working without attacking the prey. This together with pounce, that is yes working, but it is currently just a magnet with absolutely no skill required and with the very slow hunger is making utah very easy to play and definitely the strongest land predator atm. I agree that utah should kill by bleeding and not tarheting hp, but it's just too easy riht now. Carno has got bite hitbox broken, movements nerfed and bleeding is ridiculously weak and this doesn't make it stronger than utah in a fight, quite the opposite.

Of course you can still kill utahs in fight, but your odds as carno are lower, that's just a fact. It's funny to see and read people trying to demonstrate that the game is now balanced or that everything is based on skill: the game is balanced simply when there is agreement that it's ok, not because there's some objective reasoning behind, and skill impacts as much as the code allows. The code is the reason for which bad carnos were able to kill everything in update 4.5 and the code is the reason for which utahs can kill everything now. Then there are of course exceptions, but they are such. I play utah quite a lot, but I start finding it a bit boring because it's too easy, and I'm not even a good utah player. I already suggested amendments to be done on utah so I won't repeat myself. As it is now, I think the game is overall, a bit more balanced than in update4.5, but just because there are no more carno megapacks. Probably a reason for which there are no more these megapacks is because of all the nerfs done to carno, but I think also because pounce is now working (even too much), but as of now utah megapacks are something to be looked after I think, to avoid having the same thing in the future

[slim dragon]

It's easier to bleed things because pounce deals a lot of bleed damage, but no, blood pool is not a eaker version of health. It works differently. First, it regenerates much faster, and bleed damage, as opposed to health damage, isn't dealt instantly but over time, so you NEED to wait in order to make it effective. Also, while all attacks damage health and can leave an opponent vulnerable, trying to bleed an opponent out is doable only if you can keep dealing bleed damage to it on the long run.
As for the carno nerfs, most of them were necessary. Now, both it and utah need fine-tuning in order to be truly balanced.

[lunar thunder]

Bleed its way more op that dealing hp. Tbh i play almost every dino and im pretty new at utah and still utah its the easiest to play for me.

[slim dragon]

It's not bleed itself that's op, it's the amount of bleed damage pounce deals

[winter iris]

I fully agree that carno nerfs were much needed. But I remain of the opinion that blood pool is just a weaker hp, in practical terms. I explain why: now the only playable that targets bleed is utah, so there's no reason to make generalised arguments on bleeding, bleeding is just the damage generated by utah's pounce (and teno kick for some non-sense reason). Bleeding goes down way faster than hp without even touching your opponent after pounce. Pounce does not require skill atm, and is basically a magnet that can barely be punished. Usig trees is an option, but not very reliable tbf. Bleed regenrates quite slow anyway, and that leaves you extremely vulnerable, nevertheless for the fact that it drains much quicker, so engaging a fight with 50% bleed is almost a death sentence, whilst engaging a fight with 50% hp is not (also because your opponent need to come close to you to cause hp damage, with pounce it's just an attack based on the code, so nothing you could do really).
That's my main point on why bleeding is basically a weaker hp in real terms. Then it can be presented as completely different because bla bla bla, but in reality it something that kills you faster than hp, hence is a weaker hp when dealing with utahs (it's a bit like having 400hp when you fight utah as a carno)

[lunar thunder]

I know, but what i mean is that bleed lets you take down almost anything but when using damage you are kinda limited. That is the reason why utahs are more effective than carnos at taking down stegs also i dont think its bad i just say that saying utah its weak just because it deals low damage is not very smart.

[winter iris]

another huge difference between carno and utah is that a juvie utah can extremely easily avoid being killed by a carno, whilst the opposite is basically impossible

[winter iris]

it's not only 'not very smart' , if someone says utah is weak then it's just false as a matter of facts

except stego which I still don't understand why is part of the playable roster atm, the two playables that are definitely stronger than others are utah and teno. And that's also a fact

[lunar thunder]

I think teno its very balanced imo, 2 carnos that charge at the start of the fight and the teno its in big disadvintage, a group of 6 utahs and the teno its in big disadvintage.

Carnos are ambush predators so if they dont do a charge at the start of the fight then its kinda hard to hunt.

[primal harbor]

I do think there should be less damage on the tail slam and more damage on the kick, stun for tail makes sense but actual damage? no

tail should be used to get other attacks in and not be the main damage dealer

[winter iris]

this thing that carn is an ambush predator is another thing that makes me laugh. In nature yes, it was supposed to be an ambush predator (as almost all predators in nature to be honest), but with this rationale then why should teno be able to jump? So don't bring comparisons with real nature only when it suits you bias. Teno is quite in a good position also think, it's just simply the strongest land playable atm. This is a fact, but if we're all ok with that then it's fine. Also, a carno ram and bite makes almost the same damage as a kick, with the difference that it's harder to deliver and drains more stamina and causes less bleeding

[winter iris]

kick is already extremely strong, would you really like to have it stronger?

[primal harbor]

I've heard the tail slam and kick are similar damage?

[stark knoll]

Kick does more

[primal harbor]

which makes no sense because kick is harder to land

I figured

[winter iris]

kick deals almost 400 damage if i am not wrong

[primal harbor]

what does tail slam do?

[winter iris]

still very strong

[primal harbor]

cuz ive heard mixed stuff on the tail slam

yeah the tail should be weaker honestly, doing damage with your tail like that makes no sense, it feels like you would do more damage to yourself then to the enemy

the stun makes it good enough

[winter iris]

I lost interest in playing teno before the update, so I am not an expert. I just know it has the strongest attacks of land playables except stego

[primal harbor]

yeah

the tail should do less damage and it should be used to get other attacks in rather than it just doing damage and stun

I am also glad teno no longer does bonebreak

it was quite literally the swiss army knife of playables

the fact that 1 thing could stun, bleed AND do bonebreak is absurd

[tall bronze]

Should honestly deal fractures again once severities come.

[keen plover]

250n for tail slam, 275n for kick

[primal harbor]

christ yeah in my opinion the tail slam should be less and maybe the kick can be more

[keen plover]

Eh. Kick is already quite powerful if I'm being honest. Would make teno a bit too OP if it's any higher. The damage + bleed + stuns (also knockdowns on smaller creatures) already makes it deadly.

I think it's fine as is

Tail slam has a higher dps and range, which is good - while kick is the main damage dealer and bleed heavy tool

[primal harbor]

tail slam should just be the stun to get another attack off

how I personally want teno is the tail does low damage and everything else does decent damage and you depend on the tail to get hits in because it has such range

[keen plover]

Eh, I guess that could work. It's just that kick is already such a good attack, so if you only nerf slam then teno gets 'nerfed', but if you buff kick as well - then teno can do even more damage (and bleed) per stun cycle. You can probably get like 3 kicks to a carnos head, which would leave it with no HP (and probably bleed it out)

[glacial kraken]

#balance-feedback message

@alpine plover how tf did he have enough stam to pounce you 4 times in 3 minutes?

😂

did you not buck and just run after him constantly?

[alpine plover]

He just did, he literally pounce and jump off me instantly, that was enough, i did run after him, alt left click 4 times him and bite 3 times so explain to me how he killed me

[glacial kraken]

were you 100% grown?

[alpine plover]

Yes

Perfect diet also

[glacial kraken]

do you have a video of it?

[alpine plover]

No, my current pc cant handle recording

[glacial kraken]

ah

did you buck?

[alpine plover]

Instantly everytime

[glacial kraken]

i find it hard to believe that you died in 3 minutes to 1 utah whilst bucking each pounce

[alpine plover]

Each pounce was enough to bleed me out, i avoided running too, just after him few times and not long

Why would i lie

[glacial kraken]

because 3 minutes isnt enough time to bleed out a full grown teno

as a singular utah atleast

you could definitely do it with multiple but not 1

[alpine plover]

Thats why i wrote that in balance feedback

[glacial kraken]

idk bro i find it hard to believe

either he was cheating or you just played it extremely badly

[alpine plover]

So utah bleed is fine right? Doesnt need any nerf

[glacial kraken]

honestly i think it was just you being bad