balance-feedback-discussion

[analog mirage]

And maybe fill up on less food

[alpine plover]

And metabolism decreased. I've been playing Carno a lot man, and I am constantly on the struggle eating everything I see.

[tropic granite]

Same

[analog mirage]

I’m fine if it has a faster hunger drain if it didn’t require so much food

[alpine plover]

True.

[analog mirage]

Cause it’s not actually that big, just tall

[alpine plover]

I do eat like a Utah, 2 Boar, and 2 deer before I'm full It's a lot of food.

[analog mirage]

You can usually fill up almost full on a Adult Utah

[tropic granite]

I still think it's hunger drain for too fast. Utah can go for ages without eating and it's weird.

[alpine plover]

That true, I play Utah a good bit before Carno and I never felt like food was a negative with them. It was just right.

I never felt like I had too much food or too little as Utah. I hunted and had time to look around for targets. Carno i'm sprinting every where and constantly thinking about the next meal instead of gameplay.

[tropic granite]

And especially since irl, animals like reptiles eat less the larger they get. It's the smaller ones that have to constantly eat

[analog mirage]

Idk Carno is pretty fine as it is, just needs a few tweaks

It’s Utah that’s the main issue with Carno balance

[tropic granite]

And the carnos that go after stegos and end up dying, even tho it isn't even on their diet....because carno is always so hungry and they have to get desperate

[analog mirage]

That’s the Carnos problem

Don’t go after adult stegos

[tropic granite]

Exactly

[analog mirage]

It’s pretty easy to just find ai if you know where to look

[tropic granite]

Ai will only do so much for hunger

[analog mirage]

Yeah they don’t fill up much, but boat def needs to give more food

[alpine plover]

AI made it better, but the thing is I am constantly hunting instead of being able to play the game and choose a meal.

[tropic granite]

In general, carno is just a mess right now lmao

[alpine plover]

Like Utah, I can wonder around and look for things.

[tropic granite]

And it's sad because I used to play carno quite a bit back in legacy

[analog mirage]

I will say Carno should still be a pursuit hunter not a pure ambusher but I digress

Cause ambushing is Allos job

[tropic granite]

Yea, carno is definitely a pursuit hunter. But that doesn't do you any good if you can't take the time scout out your prey first because you're always starving

[analog mirage]

Depends on the situation

You can usually always find food in center

[alpine plover]

That's the ting, god forbid if you leave center. You'll starve.

[analog mirage]

Or go swamp for ai, no one goes there

I find plenty

[somber sphinx]

Yeah pursuit and run down smals like Utah, dilo ect avd ambush things like teno, dibble and magy

[alpine plover]

I'm not saying carno is in a crazy state, but there's enough negatives to really glare at you while you're playing it.

[analog mirage]

Yeah

[tropic granite]

Definitely

[alpine plover]

Like right now, i've been holding the E key for like 5 minutes eating this goat. lol

[analog mirage]

Another thing is that some situations come down to patience, even if you are at low hunger, you still have plenty of time before you physically die of starvation so waiting for good opportunities is always the best move

The only reason I would actually be tense and go straight for the kill without waiting is if I was actually low health while starving

[alpine plover]

I agree, with Carno, you definitely have to baby the situations you get in. Utah, not so much. That's what I'm sort of frustrated with, it's just not balanced in a state where it feels natural.

Utah feels more natural, and I feel like I get myself killed. Carno feels a bit unnatural like this could be better.

[tropic granite]

That is true, but when the majority of your food hangs out in one spot, and with the current situation of Hotspots and mixpackers. That can be difficult to manage.

Not to mention how utah megapacks like to dominate right now, making it harder for carno to thrive in the areas where its main prey items hang out. But that's a discussion I already had lol

But I guess I'll just end off with saying, carno definitely needs some changes in order to play like an actual animal, not some monster that constantly kills in order to survive

I think alot of people still go in with the mindset that the isle is a purely combat/pvp focused game, but its not. Survival is a big part, and Survival takes patience, and risk assessment. For an animal like carno who atm cannot do that because of its own limitations, that's not good.

Maybe it wouldn't be such an issue if the majority of players didn't hang around in one spot all day, making the rest of the map near empty and lifeless, but thats not the case

[frail bobcat]

@arctic summit are you serious about utah?

[arctic summit]

I have no clue I dont play utah 🤣 Just assumed it was hard too

[frail bobcat]

its hella easy

[neon willow]

Utah have the advantage that they eat a lot less than a carno. A carno can eat a whole pachy by itself and get 80% hunger. A full 8 person Utah pack can eat the same pachy (that only really takes 2-4 Utah's to kill), fill up almost all 8 adults before the body is gone. So while you still depend on making a large kill to nest... The definition of a large kill is completely different for a Utah pack and is much more achievable

[carmine patrol]

The hunger drain in fine imo, it just needs to fill up on less food

[analog mirage]

Yeah

[half girder]

y is utah so easy rn

[tropic granite]

Utah is one of those animals that tailor perfectly to trolls. Fast growth, limited survival needs, all while still being deadly. Was basically the same In legacy...without the tail-riding some would consider "skill"

[vestal gust]

Everyone complaining about Utahs thinking they should be able to simultaneously fight off 20 raptors at once and believing multiple half tonne giant lizards ripping their sides open should be but a scratch and easily survivable 🤡 pounce shouldn’t be as magnetic as it is sure but sorry… your precious carno shouldn’t be able to tank 10 raptor pounces and jog off into the sunset without a care in the world

[golden coral]

I think the issue is that the pounce is just stupidly easy to use. If the pounce is as easy, and safe on top of that, as it currently is, then it should take more pounces to get a lethal effect out of it than it does right now. Whereas if the pounce only worked on the flanks where the slots are, and knocked the utah down, or at least stunned it (like the miss stun) if hit on tail or head or something, then it would be perfectly fine if successful pounces were plenty lethal. On top of that, there needs to be something more to bucking, since that really should be the primary defense against pounces. This would also allow pounces to be more lethal if bucking was actually useful to negate the pounce properly.

[tropic granite]

Agreed. At the moment, utahs pounce is far too handicapped. Yes, utah should be deadly, It has those sickle claws for a reason. The issue comes with how easy they made it to use and takes little to no skill to use pounce when you basically gravitate towards your target.

[tropic granite]

Also, no one said anything about a single carno expecting to win against 20 utahs....that's a bit ridiculous.

But 2 pounces = an automatic death sentence for carno is not right. Tenno has better survivability against utahs than carno atm, and carno is supposed to prey on Utah

[half girder]

holy 🤡

dont over think it buddy lol

[vestal gust]

Utahs pounce is to easy to use atm, that is an issue. The solution is not to slam utahs lethality into the ground like everyone is asking for though. Carnos can and do still wreck utahs. 1 carno against 2 raptors is still in the carnos favour. A single charge, it’s over. 3 bites and it’s over. As it should be. But if you’re a lone carno and anymore than 3 raptors attack you… sorry but you should be running, you’re outnumbered and should respect a decently sized pack. We do not need to go back to the days of a single carno effortlessly being able to dismantle a pack of utahs

[golden coral]

On the one hand, it would be more interesting play wise if we made the pounce more difficult to use and all that, but on the other hand, the risk of breaking pounce is probably rather great. As such, it might be easier to lower the lethality but keep the current magnetic and easy to use pounce that actually works.

[vestal gust]

Lower the lethality and carnos just charge into whole packs without having to care again like last patch. 3 or 4 raptors and a carno should be at a disadvantage. Lower the lethality too much and a carno can just run in, tank multiple pounce attempts and then use its speed to just leave the situation

[primal harbor]

Honestly whenever they make Utah V2 this may be a cool idea, pretty much current Utah be very easy to use but less leathal while Utah V2 would be more tricky to get a pounce in but it does a lot more damage

Cuz Utah V2 is going to be bigger

And even if it isn't bigger it would be more bulky and I would imagine more awkward to pounce with

[keen plover]

Carnos CAN not / never have been able to tank multiple pounces while moving. When pounce worked in update 4.5, 2 pounces meant a carno could not run. Also, a carno either has to A) buck off the utahs - leading it to lose a lot of its stamina - or B) not buck the utah and leaving it to have a full unbucked pounce. Also, pounce takes stamina when you trot / walk / run. Without bucking.

Pounce currently is a busted tool.

• Easy to use, magnetises.
• Juvis take A LOT of stamina - bucking / any movement and you lose stam rapidly.
• Costs a lot of stamina to buck, leaving you with the inability to run - while also lowering you stamina recovery due to bleed.

Also no chance to capitalise on the weakness when they miss pounce, since they lowered pounce recovery time

[thin mantle]

See Bird gets it

[keen plover]

Thanks

[hasty coyote]

My main issue with utah currently is just pachy’s lack of damage compared to utah.

Utah does about half of pachy’s bleed with a pounce. Bare minimum 30%, and maximum is a dead pachy. It also cripples pachy’s stamina by making it practically impossible to regen any stam, so I’d say it’s better than a rib or skull break, but leg break still op. Plus, they can dodge pachy attacks with their superior speed and agility.

Meanwhile pachy does about 1/3 of utahs hp with an alt into ram, but it can sometimes take 4 knockdowns to kill a utah if you hit its legs or tail too many time. Then you have to hope you break them before they pounce, or you’re screwed anyway. The main break that makes pachy stronger is leg break, but half the time hitboxes decide “nah not today” when you hit them dead in the legs.

[alpine plover]

Pachy in a group of 2 or 3 can take down a Carno, though.

How do I know? I play Carno a lot. One Pachy is dead. Two Pachy have a shot, three has an even bigger shot. The problem is the Carno's Stamina doesn't usually outlast more than one pachy.

Pachy can outlast Utah / Carno stamina if there's more than one. A solo pachy definitely has a chance to kill a Utah, but granted a Pachy shouldn't be that crazy strong. His bone break is already pretty significant.

[alpine plover]

@harsh jetty You guys are ruining the game

You guys are ruining the game with the massive amount of bleed coming from Utahs

I mean utterly ruining it.

[muted panther]

Lmao someone’s salty his carno died to a utah

[alpine plover]

No, i just killed a Carno as a Utah

It mean he was just slaughtered. They bleed out so easily.

[muted panther]

He was already injured or played badly lol

[alpine plover]

Wrong, he had no damage.

[twilit juniper]

I feel like hes about to be smited by the ban hammer, i dont think @fair basalt devs is allowed

But the bleed of utahs isnt the problem.. its the magnetism

[alpine plover]

I've been playing with them for years, and Punch has always responded.

[muted panther]

How do you know? Bleed doesn’t show scars

[muted panther]

Punch is the exception to the rule there

[alpine plover]

Because I was watching him in a field for like 10 minutes.

[twilit juniper]

Oh ok

[alpine plover]

I lost my Carno to a Utah bleed last night. And now I just killed one. I mean if you get two 3 seconds jumps on the carno, it's screwed.

[muted panther]

Ok, so he probably played badly. Did he buck? Did he use trees to knock you off? Did he run around like an idiot?

[stark knoll]

If you'd like, you can make a constructive and descriptive post in #balance-feedback

[alpine plover]

I just jumped off before he got to a tree. I only held on 3 times for 3 seconds. That's all it took and a couple of bites.

[twilit juniper]

I think ya'll both are wrong sadly.. Utahs bleed is fine to everything else except carno. So clearly its not the bigger issue.. Utahs are literal magnets, imo thats the bigger issue. Casue currently it takes almost 0 skill to be utah due to the magnet, if it wasnt there, alot of utahs would move on to something else (since the overpopulation of utahs is LITERALLY becasue it became the easiest thing to play and became a magnet)

[alpine plover]

Or they can just read the chat from the last few days. The Utah bleed on Carno is out of control.

[muted panther]

Personally I think the carno and utah matchup is pretty balanced right now as someone who’s grown multiple carnos post-u5

[alpine plover]

Nah, killing a carno has never been easier for a Utah. Utah can easily dodge a carno forever.

[muted panther]

If he’s skilled, yeah

[alpine plover]

I just did it over 5 minutes. He bit me once. I got three jumps in a handful of bites.

[muted panther]

A skilled utah should be able to solo an average carno lol

[alpine plover]

And he's laying here dead. Crazy.

I shouldn't beable to kill a carno solo. Last night, when I died as Carno, the bleed rate was so rapid

On top of that, it's fairly easy to dodge a carno.

[neon willow]

Utah/carno matchup depends on who hits first, imo. A charge can easily turn the fight to a carno's favor by elimating 1-2 opponents almost immediately. Also the mistake I see carnos making is running after they start bleeding. Once the bleed is on you gotta play more defensively and let the Utah's come to you

[twilit juniper]

I still disagree with all these ppl saying that the utah stats are the problem.. noones looking at how the mechanic is the bigger issue rather than the numbers..

[muted panther]

Yeah the only issue with utah is the magnet pounce

[alpine plover]

Carno is good at Ambushing, yes. However, your metabolism is so high you're constantly ravenous and hunting. You don't have just tons of time to setup ganks.

[muted panther]

45 minutes is plenty of time

[alpine plover]

Now, you're dying to a single Utah that takes like an hour to grow.

[twilit juniper]

Thats very wrong o-o i almost ambush primarily

[muted panther]

If you’re dying to single utahs you have skill issue

[neon willow]

They can't if you stick on the same one. I've died to carnos before because my packmates didn't come distract the carno. Spent too much stam dodging and died

[alpine plover]

Feel free to stream it and lets see how much you ambush because I don't know where you're finding all these players

You have to find Ai

[twilit juniper]

Its simple.. just dont make yourself that seen and be extremely aware of ur surroundings.. aka bushes and forest are your best friend, and try to not find utahs from sight.. use sound and theyre non stop barks to ambush..

[alpine plover]

Also, the stam drain is too high on Carno. If you get in a fight, your stam is gone in no time.

[muted panther]

Nah adult carno shouldn’t bother with ai

[alpine plover]

Troll. lol

[muted panther]

Nope, it’s too big to get free food

[alpine plover]

You have to get AI or you'll starve. Aren't players or stam to feed your nutrition.

[muted panther]

Idk what servers you’re playing on lol

[alpine plover]

NA1.

[muted panther]

Ai only gives like 5% anyway

[neon willow]

I mean yes. The reason charge does so much damage and knockdown on top of that is because carno isn't designed for extended fights. It does best if you do overwhelming damage quickly right at the beginning. Other things win if they drag the fight out

[alpine plover]

Yeah, but fills your nutrition. 5% is better than zero.

[twilit juniper]

Im sorry if this is mean, but now it really sounds like your not that great at Carno.. ive literally had no issues with carno ever since the utah buff, along with many other ppl.. (except the magnet pounce which has nothing to do with its stats and ''power'')

either i fight dumb utahs or something else

[alpine plover]

It's not mean. I can just tell you don't know what you're talking about my friend. You just said AI isn't necessary, so it sounds like you're not keeping up with your diet.

You sound like a Herbi and you can survive months as a herbi.

[twilit juniper]

It wasnt me that said ai isnt neccesary, and what is this to do with diets xD when your 100% grown diets dont rlly matter, atleast to me

i run around 0 diet and do just fine

[alpine plover]

Then you aren't fighting because you need that stam.

[twilit juniper]

Yeah i am fighting, and alot xD and i have the stam, its not about regenaration, its about saving it and being smart about when to sprint

if you just run after utahs all day, of course it will drain fast

carno is a defensive playstyle now (atleast agaisnt utahs)

[alpine plover]

Defensive against what? An Automatic hook?

[neon willow]

This. Carno is balanced around occasional tactical bursts of speed... Not just running your prey down blindly

[alpine plover]

How are you fighting utahs without stamming ? This tells me you don't know what you're talking about and haven't fought them very often.

They magnetic lock to you and can easily dance around you and jump on you if you aren't moving.

[twilit juniper]

Yeah the magnet is a big problem. but your not talking about it are you =) you came in here saying that utah bleed is overpowered.
Use trees, stand on cliff ledges, buck, dont move too much. That is called defense

[alpine plover]

Yes, Utah bleed is VERY overpowered

[twilit juniper]

Because i go into the fight with full stam and i can make sure to not run out of stam until the hunt is done

[alpine plover]

You bleed out in just minutes.

And you lose all your stam on top of it.

You don't fight. You just said AI / nutrition doesn't matter and it makes a large difference.

[twilit juniper]

You really dont have very good arguments.. just because thats your experience, doesnt mean everyone expereinces it the same. like i said, ive had no issues fighting utahs everyday..

[neon willow]

If you want to chase prey down, raptor is the better choice-- bleed is literally designed to maximize damage the more they move.

Carno is really suited or ambush or defensive fights. Designed to deal medium to high raw damage quickly, especially if you knock down

[twilit juniper]

diets dont make that big of a difference really, do some testing

[alpine plover]

A Utah jumps you for three seconds, hops off, dodges you with short burst, jumps again, you're in trouble. IT's easy

It makes about a 30% difference and it helps a lot.

[twilit juniper]

thats nothing

30%

[alpine plover]

Okay

That's a lot

[twilit juniper]

Im sorry that your having issues with carno, but i fight alot almost everday and i survive, and i do just fine xD I wont argue with you cause its pointless, just get better at carno. (cuz isle is my main game).

[neon willow]

If the Utah is dodging you, that implies you're chasing. Which is the exact wrong thing to do if you're bleeding

[twilit juniper]

^

[alpine plover]

You don't my friend. You're saying 30% isn't a lot, diet mechanics don't matter, dont move around a lot or sprint as carno when Utahs are attacking you. You obviously don't fight them.

They just jump you if you sit still and you get massive bleed. You to move or they just stare at you as you bleed out. So the fact you say don't chase or run means you don't fight them.

Because they can stand there all day and walk around after they just jumped you and let you bleed out.

[neon willow]

I personally don't like carno. But I've seen what my friends do on carno, and I've seen what happens when I attack carnos. If they let Utah's go to them, the carnos almost always fair better. If they try to chase utahs, the Utah's usually win

[twilit juniper]

It doesnt mean that ='D Your funny my guy, i like you. You dont know what your talking about cause im here saying that i have no issues, and your there like ''oh no, you clearly have issues''

So funny

[alpine plover]

..... you said don't run while a Utah stares at you and you bleed out. Are you serious?

[neon willow]

Also ahain-- hitting first with a charge that knocks 1-2 Utahs down is HUGE. Completely changes the fight dynamic if you land it

[alpine plover]

What are you talking about man. You don't know the mechanics. lol

[twilit juniper]

run = bleed out 90% of the time, its simple =) (of course you need to bite, and attack, but not run around)

[twilit juniper]

And also this ^, we could go back to carno charge and how easy it is to pull off even in close quarters fighting, in a field, with about 4-5 utahs =)

Best carno tip for charge, predict theyre movement, its ez then, cause they dont expect it

[alpine plover]

You just said carno charge? You mean lose 30 to 50% of your stamina while your bleeding?

Again, you obviously don't know the mechanics.

Carno is not balanced in the slightest. Utah is easy to play and fast.

[twilit juniper]

Clearly man

[neon willow]

You should charge before you're bleeding... It's an opening move, not a mid/late fight move

[wild mist]

Utah OP, Carno OP, Teno OP, Stego OP seemed all balanced to me 😆

[alpine plover]

I'm playone Utah now and the fact I just oneshotted this carno is absurd.

[twilit juniper]

[alpine plover]

Teno is okay, just waste stam. Stego doesn't have any competition, not OP right now. Carno is just a Ptera.

Just above Ptera since Deino and Utah are top of the food chain.

[hasty coyote]

I can give y’all the bleed values I have from some testing with carno

[alpine plover]

The Carno bleed rate is absolutely off the walls and that's the main issue with a metabolism that is a bit too high.

[wild mist]

in the end its up to the player how well the dino performs

[hasty coyote]

I will need to see if I have it on me first, if anything I’ll post it when I’m at my pc in like an hour

[alpine plover]

God forbid if you move as a carno after you start bleeding.

[twilit juniper]

To the guys responding to Cross, i think you should be better off doing something else This mans is a comedian

[neon willow]

Sounds about right. Basically, any experienced player will beat the snot out of people.

Once fought a teno as part of a group of Utah's. At first we thought he didn't know what he was doing. But he literally obliterated most of the pack by himself before he finally died. He was a VERY good teno and an extremely worthy opponent

[alpine plover]

Atchiett, you're the guy telling people diet and 30% extra stam is nothing. You're a joke.

[twilit juniper]

You are too Thanks for making my day (im legit laughing irl, not just ''lol XD'')

[hasty coyote]

From the numbers I have, a single full bucked pounce generally does around 30% bleed. So 3-4 pounces killing carno does make sense

[alpine plover]

Then you go on to say don't run when fighting Utahs, and let them stare you down as you bleed. Then you go on to say use Charge and use all your stam.

You don't know what you're talking about dude.

[wild mist]

you two should drop that discussion, you both are not going anywhere

[alpine plover]

I just killed a carno with 3 pounces, and a few bites. Just didn't let him sit. It was easy, dodge was easy.

[twilit juniper]

I know, im purposely agitating him xDD its hilarious

[wild mist]

and that is not allowed

[twilit juniper]

Kinda is, 50/50. Cause idk if youve been reading what hes saying, he clearly needs to be put in place, cause appearently his opinion is fact

[wild mist]

i kill a lot of utahs as carno in the end it depends on the player

[hasty coyote]

Then yeah, that makes sense. Just sounds like that carno didn’t play correctly and you did.

[alpine plover]

I mean he couldn't get to me, I can just out turn. How was he suppose to win?

[hasty coyote]

Utah matchups are the most volatile, they are heavily reliant on skill and terrain.

[alpine plover]

Bleed destroys his stamina regen, I jump off before he can buck or hit a tree. And just turn in circles.

Bleeds out a few minutes later

Easy

[hasty coyote]

Chase you down after you pounced since you have less stamina. Or get away since carno can tank 1 pounce. Or find terrain it can abuse to negate buck or funnel you into its mouth.

[alpine plover]

It tried to funnel me , but it was bleeding already. Too late.

It was already dying with no stam by the time it could funnel.

[hasty coyote]

Then it that’s what happens when you don’t find terrain and keep running.

Carno made mistakes, it died.

[alpine plover]

Right, which is bad for a 2 and half hour grow rate and how easy it was for me to kill it

[neon willow]

Yup precisely. I'm terribly inexperienced on stego atm because I've never played it before. One of my friends tried to solo Utah me and I was bleeding out. Not because Utah is unbalanced but because I don't know how the timing works on stego 's attacks, and my friend does know how Utah's attacks work. I've seen plenty of frankly average stegos that kill entire Utah packs. So even though I badly lost, I know stego isn't underpowered against utah

[hasty coyote]

I can show you plenty of videos of carnos massacring utah packs too. Skill is a major component in these fights. And most carnos lack it.

[alpine plover]

How do they massacre utahs when a utah can just out turn it and auto lock onto it?

[hasty coyote]

By abusing terrain, chasing them down, predicting their movements, and capitalizing on mistakes.

[neon willow]

Honestly idk, I'm terrible at carno too. BUT somehow my friends manage it- I've watched their stream as they wipe groups of utahs

[golden coral]

I mean, if you get hunted down by a carno as utah, you're a bad utah. Same if you get hit by a carno charge as anything but a stego, you're just a terrible player.

[alpine plover]

A carno can certainly kill, the issue is, it's not balanced with the bleed and metabolism

[hasty coyote]

Plus, a bad utah still gets bodied

[alpine plover]

When playing Utah, I don't feel like my food drains too fast, I can wonder and look for prey. Don't feel that way with Carno

[hasty coyote]

The main issue with increasing metabolism is megapacks. So they need to be cautious not to be too generous.

Utahs also mostly hunts prey their size and bigger currently (since the small bois don’t get attention atm), while carno eats things a fraction of its size.

[neon willow]

I feel you there. A lot of things frankly just don't fill a 100% carno up. And that's one carno. They can group up to 3. You've got to basically constantly be hunting to keep all 3 fed, or score a very generous hunt against a group of tenos or something

[alpine plover]

The thing is with Utah, i feel like i died because of my mistakes. With a carno, when I die, I often feel like "that could be better". It doesn't feel natural.

Agreed, they can keep the metabolism but the food should be more filling or vice versa. Reduce metabolism but keep food the way it is. The food situation was improved with AI spawns, but definitely doesn't feel good.

[hasty coyote]

Personally, I would essentially just increase the cap of food. So eating something that lasts 30 mins now still lasts 30 mins later, but you should be able to fill up to 1hr of food. That way megapacks still take a lot of food to maintain, but solos can fill up and nest easier.

[neon willow]

I will say with utahs--- mistakes are obvious, immediate, and usually brutally punished (they're usually knocked down, or 1-shot when they mess up)

Carnos mistakes have delayed consequences. It may not be apparent immediately that you're using too much stam or not effectively using terrain, leaving players to feel like they never had a chance to begin with (the connection isn't made between the death and the mistakes several minutes previous)

[hasty coyote]

Good point^

[alpine plover]

I agree, that's a good point, however, when the death comes from a rapid bleed rate that feels overwhelming for a massive creature compared to the Utah, and the massive hit on stamina, it just doesn't jive. It feels abnormal, unbalanced.

[golden coral]

More so that you have to try really hard to make a mistake with utah, compared to most of the others where it's a lot easier to mess up.

[hasty coyote]

My only issues with the current balance personally are pachy’s lack of damage compared to utah and my boy hypsi being left to rot for the past few updates.

[neon willow]

That too. Could be more challenging to land a pounce on utah

[alpine plover]

I died to 3 Pachy's yesterday, came down to the Carnos stamina again. You cannot fight multiple players with your stamina drain rate, plus that pachy neck or leg break

[neon willow]

Agreed. Though dryo too needs some spice

[golden coral]

I wish. But utah has always been stupidly easy to play, no matter how many "utah mains" keep crying about skill.

[alpine plover]

Yes, I agree. Utah is easy to play and I primary a Carno and I do way better with a Utah.

[golden coral]

For some reason people look at bugs as some kind of difficulty added to a playable, and not as an actual bug that messes things up. It's a bit odd.

[hasty coyote]

Yeah, generally you don’t want to go head on with groups of pachies, for obvious reasons . However you can ambush one and kill it quickly, or back off and find other prey.

[alpine plover]

Yes, the carno is great at ambushing. If they would tone down the bleeding from Utahs and adjust the carno food, I think it would feel better and bit more balanced with its weight class.

[neon willow]

That matches up to what Atchiett said-- 3 pachys against 1 carno have a good chance of winning the fight. 1 pachy usually loses. 2 pachys the odds are about even

[golden coral]

Carno is just terribly designed in general. :p

Go hunt the small and agile stuff, while being bad at doing just that.

[alpine plover]

I agree, carno isn't the best, but the food situation and the bleed rate would make it more acceptable.

[thin mantle]

Charge is one of the most confusing abilities I’ve seen in a video game to date

[hasty coyote]

Also, a group of carnos is exponentially more scary than solos, so take that into account

[golden coral]

Just like pachies really :p

[alpine plover]

Yes, charge i only EVER use in a surprise situation, The stamina drain is too much for a fighting situation. I rarely use it personally.

[golden coral]

Nah, if you got 2-3+ carnos, charge is amazing.

[neon willow]

True. Especially if they bait. Honestly grouped carnos is probably why they adjusted bleed resist

[alpine plover]

Yes, if you pack up. Numbers wins anything.

[golden coral]

That's the best use of it. Charge when someone else is distracting, rather than trying to ambush.

[thin mantle]

Charge basically only functions in the context of group tactics were you can actually set up a target and remove its options to move, a target that “doesn’t see you coming” is way harder to hit because of how large you are and how open the environment is needed to use the ability at all

[golden coral]

Anyway. Charge is a dumb mechanic for carno, utah pounce is just stupidly easy to use (as is the animal in general), stego attacks are trash, deino in it's entirety is a "bad" playable, hypsi is pointless and no one cares about dryo and ptera. Pachy and teno are probably okay, if all the others weren't dumb in one way or the other. Pretty much the state of the balance in this game.

[thin mantle]

Yeah Pachy and teno stand out from the rest by leaps and bounds as far as how cohesive their kit is

[alpine plover]

Yes, Utah is definitely over powered right now. I think they did it because of Stegos right now, but they need to tone it down.

I got a stego last week. Took 20 minutes as utah

[thin mantle]

Which is only indicative of a roster issue given how fantastic of a counter stego is for Utah, so then balancing Utah around stego only exasperates Utahs balancing issues

[alpine plover]

Yes. They definitely have a roster issue and it's becoming more and more glaring the more I play.

[cosmic kestrel]

this is carno charge rn

this needs to be fixed alongside magnet utah pounce

[alpine plover]

But of course they'll say, just go back to legacy if you hold us accountable for gameplay. -.-

Carno charge is good if you have foe that is complete caught off guard or distracted, it's too costly for any other situation.

[thin mantle]

Translation: It only works if the other player does nothing to stop you and somehow manages to not spot you

[thin mantle]

That’s not a hitbox issue, one of you has bad latency

Charge’s hitbox is actually pretty tight, tho it is a bit too large I must admit

[alpine plover]

True. Lol There's some definite tweaking the carno needs, but it seems like it's the furthest from the dev's minds. Unfortunately I feel like balancing has taken a back seat.

[cosmic kestrel]

both need to be fixed

[golden coral]

Which you don't, unless the other player lacks braincells entirely (or is outnumbered to a level where you probably dont need to use the charge anyway). :p

[thin mantle]

Yeah….I just wish modding was a thing so I could adjust stats for the sake of testing till I find something that makes sense
That and completely alter abilities or outright replace some

[alpine plover]

You use to could. You could start your own testing server and edit the server files I think.

They use to have a dueling server

[thin mantle]

I don’t think that applies to base stats iirc

[neon willow]

Eh. Utah pounce and deino lunge need adjustments, but Utah is quick to grow, making it easy for new players to practice various shared mechanics, so imo should be reasonably easy to use (maybe not with magnetic pounce tho). Deino isn't a bad playable, just a bit boring, which could be fixed by adjusting lunge slightly.

Stego attacks hurt like heck, but largely that's the main thing it's got going for it-- a tank that needs to kill before it runs out of health. Hypsi/dryo/ptera all have the same problem-- they're too small to really be able to fight anything outside of their weight class, and don't have mechanics to keep the players engaged without the fighting

[alpine plover]

Yup, I hope the devs see all of this. I just really think the bleed rate is too much for the Utah to have a built in aimbot.

Maybe altering the carnos turn rate and making it so we can turn a little tighter could make all the difference. I don't know. I think we all agree some balancing needs to take place.

[thin mantle]

Oh I think you two had a disconnect. Erik is referring to ease in the context of activities that SHOULD be very difficult, like taking down a Carno or stego, 2 animals VERY well oriented to hard countering Utah. Right now pounce makes it far too easy, there’s no punishment for missing and you can cancel out any attack you interact with as long as both land at relatively the same time.

Deino on the other hand, I just disagree completely.
Deino’s entire hunting strategy is contradictory to the entire premise of the game, it’s a predator you can’t out-strategize without locations that make it entirely ineffective, and going to any other place on the map to drink just places you in a game of death you have influence over. It’s bad for the roster, it’s a VERY good playable in isolation in the fact that it’s ease of survival is titanic in comparison to the rest, but in a multiplayer survival game it’s completely backwards

[hasty coyote]

More like every Dino lol

[neon willow]

I think the thing that needs fixing is Utah pounce targeting, not the bleed itself. It's a high risk high reward kind of fighting style, but right now it's missing the risk

[golden coral]

Utah can be easy to use, if it gets limited in what it can punch up to. If we, let's say, limited the power of the pounce and bleed and all that, so anything above maybe 5T is basically untouchable by utah packs, this would be more reasonable. The problem comes when you have an ability that can both punch up to everything, and is as stupidly easy and safe to use, plus being safe in general as a fast and agile playable (again, no reasonable utah dies to a carno following it, they're agile enough to juke and get away).
Lunge is just.. bad due to no good counter and all that, and deino in general is bad due to being designed the way it is, since it affects the map and all as well. (unless we also accept that there are areas with no deinos, but other threats, but then that might bring it's own issues for deinos).
Stegos attacks may hurt, but that does not make them good. Stego does not work as a proper stego and that's a whole issue of it's own.
More or less true on the smalls, hence why I said no one really cares about them. They're just there, being annoying and all that.

[alpine plover]

They could lower the recover rate for a utah missing the pounce, too.

[thin mantle]

Doing so would fundamentally alter Carno’s relationship with the game, Utah is the problem there not carno, buffing Carno would be the wrong move

[alpine plover]

There's a lot of way to balance, and i hope they take a pass at it soon.

I could agree, I feel the carno is in a decent place for combat.

[thin mantle]

Fundamentally tho, you should not be able to pounce the back or front of most of not all animals….the ergonomics make this impossible in most cases and it’d actually necessitate group tactics with Utah….the pack hunter

[hasty coyote]

Plus, buffing carno messes up the pachy matchup, which is honestly great atm.

[thin mantle]

Yeah Carno and Pachy have never been better (with eachother)

[alpine plover]

It's just that bleed is a got dang problem. However, I don't know how they could change the mechanic because it's soo mechanical and intensive. I think the possible long leap time recover could balance it.

[golden coral]

I think most of us would agree that making the pounce more mechanically interesting is preferable to just changing stats. The issue is that the pounce needs to work, and well, it took them this long to get there, so. I can see why it's appealing to work on stats rather than try to make heads and tails unpouncable, only to have to deal with a broken pounce for another few years.

[hasty coyote]

Which is also why I don’t want them to buff ram damage, rather just increase alt or make headslam a finisher.

[thin mantle]

I’d prefer that over playing any animal that isn’t Utah to be a bad idea

[hasty coyote]

Pachy is probably the most balanced it has been so far.

[thin mantle]

Headslam should absolutely deal Carno tier damage to downed animals, I will die on that hill

[alpine plover]

Pachy feels good to play for me.

[neon willow]

I agree on Utah. There needs to be punishment for missing and risk involved (need to hit the side for pounce for example, instead of the head)

I think you misunderstood what I mean for deino. I want lunge adjusted so you CAN outstrategize, so that lunge isn't a guaranteed kill if it lands. I don't like that it literally ends fights with no counter

[golden coral]

Pachy still needs a better trot I'm pretty sure.

[alpine plover]

Stego feels good. Utah feels good. Tento feels good. The one that bothers me the most is Carno

[thin mantle]

Oh right I remember we had that convo a while back! :D
Our ideas were really good….can’t remember them off the top of my head I just remember it being productive lol

[golden coral]

I can't agree that stego feels good Cross. Nor utah. Utah feels easy and I guess that is good, but it's too easy and just.. run and gun sort of feel? Not sure how to explain that one. But stego is just.. like deino, it's.. big, clumsy, entirely reliant on "facetanking" with nothing interesting in it's combat or movement kit.

[thin mantle]

Utah just depresses me to play…

[golden coral]

And if that is how the approach to larger and slower animals are, then I am a bit concerned. And I know that Kissen has said stego has more attacks in the works, but that still remains to be seen what kind of attacks those are, and if they make the animal more fun in general or not.

[thin mantle]

Hopefully something that can be used to apply bleed while trotting…..we can only dream

Or just a more controllable tail

[hasty coyote]

150-200 damage and no fracture damage. 200 max so that a headshot ram and slam exactly 1-shots utah. Less if it becomes an issue.

[thin mantle]

Sounds about right to me tbh👏

Maybe Pachy will actually become a Utah counter….

[neon willow]

Again, I think pounce should take skill to pull off, and not be safe to use. I don't want to limit the power of pounce and bleed, but I do want to increase the stakes and risk of using it significantly, especially against larger creatures. Utah packs should be able to kill large dinos with pounce... But not without significant risk of annihilation.

What do you mean by "stego doesn't work as a proper stego"?

[alpine plover]

The problem is putting that into a mechanic. The animation / coding had to have been pretty intense to get it to work. I think the better balance would be to make the miss cost them 2 or 3 seconds longer than it does now.

Would definitely allow for punishment if they don't time and aim it right.

[thin mantle]

That doesn’t really address most of Utahs issues with pounce tho, it’s ease of use is the problem moreso than how punishable failure is

Mainly because Utah has the easiest ability to land in the game

So it’d only effect the worst of the Utah player base, the status quo would mostly go unchanged

[alpine plover]

Yeah, way too much damage with a built in aimbot. But the cost / time it would take to reanimate and code the mechanic I think would be too unrealistic.

[thin mantle]

I’d prefer that over a busted pounce, if it’s that much of an issue I’d just remake the ability from the ground up so it becomes less problematic with the foundation they made earlier on for it…..but that’s too productive to ever happen

Because then you could actually alter it mechanically without collapsing the entire game

[neon willow]

I don't know how they code it, exactly. But I know they have separate body, leg, tail, and head hitboxes (headshots do 2x damage). They could make it so that if pounce lands on the head hitbox it counts as a miss or a knockdown. Same with tail hitbox

[thin mantle]

That’d be ideal

Needing to aim would be fun

[neon willow]

Would stop players from darting to your head to teleport and force a lot more risk-- gotta get past teno kicks and stego tail to get the juicy high bleed reward

[thin mantle]

Plus it makes groups and strategy that much more important

Which is kinda the entire point of Utah

[alpine plover]

Yeah, pray the devs see these convos because we need a balance pass.

[neon willow]

Which imo is the whole advantage to Utah. The lone Utah dies but the pack survives

[thin mantle]

Hopefully sooner than U9

[golden coral]

Just to point out "large" critter is very relative here. To a utah, at 450 kg, anything carno sized is large really. So limiting utahs wouldn't be bad when they are also a pretty decent beginner dino, and a very popular one at that.

Basically what I mean is that stego should be more similar to legacy, have proper swings rather than these weird precision jabs. Stego should basically be a "to whom it may concern" covering the entire sides with ease and handling smaller and agile critters masterfully, especially compared to something like a trike that should struggle with having to turn to cover itself. In return, stego should struggle with allo+ sized animals, in packs and solo for the really big ones (because we dont want rex packs obviously). While trike in turn should be well designed to handle similar sized "fighters" due to it's own weapons and armor and all that.

Currently we have a stego that seems to function more like a scorpion, rendering it good vs the bigger things (as we can see with deino I suppose) but terrible at handling things that it realistically should handle. Especially in the case of utahs that require the flank access with pounce (if we get a proper pounce where it only works on the "slots" and the utah is at risk if it messes up and on mount/dismount (like any other critter that is at risk of taking damage when going in for a strike really). We have a stego that is not only strangely designed attack wise, but also lacking in combat when it comes to attacks, and movement, and is basically a stationary living turret, very similar to deino on land, which is both not what I consider a good stego, but also outright not fun to fight with, not vs deinos, not vs other stegos, and not vs utahs and carnos or anything else really, because all you do is just stand there, entirely reliant on the attacker messing up pretty badly.

[thin mantle]

Mhm, and something that I feel like isn’t touched on much is how good Utah is even without pounce. It does more damage than Pachy’s alt with its basic bite, it has the highest agility in game (because Dryo doesn’t really exist) and it has one of the largest stam pools in game with the fastest stam regen of any carnivore…..this’ll be especially relevant when the smaller animals (or just more animals in Utahs size range) are added, Utah doesn’t NEED to be taking on everything way bigger than it necessarily, it’s already fantastic at killing everything else

[neon willow]

Plus, it changes up mechanics-- for most dinos, you actually want to aim for headshots-- 2x damage looks real pretty. It'd be interesting to have a dino where you actually don't want headshots

[golden coral]

I would make head and tail pounces act like a missed pounce. Not a knockdown (save that for out of stam and terrain, so it's a proper punishment for being so bad that you just deserve to die), and maybe just add .5-1 sec to the missed stun. So if you pounce tail or head, you get stunned, but can move again quick enough so if the target is slow to react or distracted, you'll be able to get out most likely, if maybe with a bit of damage taken. Also only stego has 2x head shot damage, the others have 1.5, except pachy that has .75 or something due to hard head.

[thin mantle]

[thin mantle]

Mhm, tbf we have that with Pachy, but that’s specific to Pachy, you’re talking about an animal that NEEDS to avoid headshots to be effective, which is very interesting

[thin mantle]

It’s .5 for Pachy btw

[golden coral]

Oh, so noted then!

[neon willow]

I like your analysis, and would be okay with stego getting aoe swings instead of jabs. But, I have a question.

Would you suggest trike replacing stego as a higher tier dino that Utah's could hunt? Given their attacks are mostly near their head and Utah's could use agility to dodge these more easily, it may make more sense than the current setup (again assuming Utah's get a severe penalty for pouncing on the wrong area -- in the case of trike pouncing on the head could lead to self-impalement

[thin mantle]

Intuitively we already know that’ll happen, and tbh I have no idea what trike would even do against current utah……it’d get slaughtered

[neon willow]

I imagine high bleed resist or having diet mainly in forests would be best to prevent Utah from murking trike too easily. Honestly, I think high bleed resist would work well-- it is an apex after all. Utahs should be able to kill it, but... It's going to be a very, very long drawn out process with lots of chances for mistakes and starvation on the Utah side

[thin mantle]

If that were the case, especially considering how thick trike skin is, it could work fine….idk id need to see it tested in game

If obstacle rubbing actually made a full mechanical return this would be more reasonable to me

[neon willow]

Agreed. Testing is important. I just really dislike hard caps on what you can fight. Eg if if you're a dryo and you want to try to kill a stego... You should be able to do damage to it. With the caveat that you had better be the goat dryo, and have the patience of a mountain

[golden coral]

Yes. To me, stego and anky are the "no go" for utah, for similar but different reasons. Same for deino and spino really (safety biome go brr!). Meanwhile, trike, shant, ceratopsids and hadrosaurs in general (para is also pretty big) and rex/giga/acro and maye even allo (due to not being designed for small game hunting, which is why carno should be better vs utah really, it's meant to be the thing shitting hard on them and making them run in fear, like any other critter of that size really.

Pouncing a trike head on would be lethal, this we've seen in videos. So that is a thing (and should go for kentro and stego thagomizer too really, though who'd pounce a stego thagomizer is beyond me...). But yes, trike would struggle more with the small and agile animals, due to it's attack being much more limited in range (front and slightly sideways), and "point defense" oriented. In turn, due to it having armor on head as well, it works excellently for offense, and pressuring those big predators that can't dance around very well. Something stego in turn lacks, and can only really do while walking away (if it gets a proper mobile swing and all).

In general, I make the distinction here between simple/difficult vs easy/hard to take down (dangerous vs time and effort). Stego is difficult to hunt, but comparatively easy to take down (being the most fragile/weak of the apexes at only 7-8T, while everyone else starts at 8T and gets bigger and heavier from there, thus having more blood and health). Trike and shant for example, is on the other hand much simpler to hunt and get pounces on safely, but they're also capable of going for longer and will take a bit more time to take out so its harder to hunt them. So it could come down to how many utahs you're willing to risk vs time invested. Take a stego, lose 90% of your pack before it dies due to the AoE reach. Take a shant, lose 20% of the pack, but add 40 min to the hunt time more or less.

[thin mantle]

I have very mixed views on hard caps, but that’s a discussion for another time

If Utah is ever able pounce Kentro, I’ll be starting another world war

[golden coral]

Oh I agree, technically anything can and should be able to damage something else. But you might starve before you chew through the other guys health pool or blood or something. Like, sure you can nibble a brachi as dryo, but you'll starve before it dies any day of the week. And bleed resist could work quite well with how I see trike and stego. Stego lacking it (though it does have gular armor so there is that), while trike having it. Meanwhile stego being dangerous and difficult to even get to, while trike is rather simple, but requires way more pounces before it goes down. So in general, trike is a good target due to it dying with little loss of your pack and while a long hunt, it gives mass amount of food so very worth it. Meanwhile, hunting a healthy stego is terrible, because while you will kill it due to sheer attrition, you'll lose 9 out of 10 utahs before it dies due to it's tail going brr. On the other hand, find a stego that's been mauled by some acros or a rex or giga, and well, you might only lose 2-3 utahs before it keels over. Much more worth it at that point, making it, anky, and maybe deino and spino targets of opportunity, compared to trike, shant, rex, giga and the others that are more huntable in general.

[neon willow]

Fair enough. Honestly you'd be crazy to try to kill a stego as dryo, and I doubt anyone would be actually interested in doing so... But I still feel like if you're willing to climb that exponential difficulty curve, you should be able to

[thin mantle]

Mhm, it’d just take more time to kill the stego than it’d take to grow own, but theoretically it can be done….or not….actually I think stego outbreaks dryo’s dps anyway so…

[golden coral]

Oh, dryos could kill stegos quite easily not too long ago. Something about high damage, almost impossible to hit due to speed and agility, and being able to just snipe stego head and sometimes even assride due to size.

[thin mantle]

75dmg Dryo….those were the days

Many Carno’s were felled by my U3 Dryo….

[golden coral]

Balance is as balance does in this game xD

[neon willow]

Yeah exactly. I also like the feeling that EVERYTHING can kill you if it is skilled enough, and determined enough. If you hard cap (say Utah do 0 damage to dinos over 5T), then nothing larger than 5T will ever view a Utah pack as a potential threat, and they may even view it like a toy to harass and play with

Idk I think survival genre does best where you always have to weigh the risks of everything you encounter

[golden coral]

Yeah no, hard caps are questionable. Being "untouchable" is more so that stats and mechanics just makes it almost impossible as long as the other player has half a braincell you know. It's like, skill is one thing , but stats have the final say, since that's what determines what can actually be done.

And yes, we need more decision making, aside from "should I attack that thing" and the answer always being "yes" :p

[thin mantle]

Like deino or spino being near water when threatened by any terrestrial threat

[golden coral]

@neon willowI hope I described the stego and trike scenario well enough up there btw! I know I wrote an entire essay for you :p

[neon willow]

Exactly. I want it to be so that Utah's usually won't go for stegos because it's too risky to engage... But that stego better still keep that pack in the back of its mind, because sometimes they do try, and sometimes they get the kill

[neon willow]

You did, very well! It was very well explained and I agree with a lot of your points

[golden coral]

:D

@azure hingeYou are aware that stego can't move and attack, right? Or turn and attack at the same time? And that stegos are really slow at that. So I have to wonder how exactly a stego is "kiting" you.

However, they do need to lower the group to 2 stegos, just like deinos. That would be much more reasonable.

[neon willow]

Stegos can kite deinos on land, or baby stegos (and possibly baby tenos). I think just about everything else is faster

And I agree with 2 stego group limits

At least until more dinos that can contest stego is added

[azure hinge]

@golden coral you know what kiting means in a video game

attack run forward attack run forward

it turns on a dime

it has no reason to show head

so if its a good stego its almost invincible unless an entire pack of utahs want to suicide maybe half their group to kill a single lone stego

and dont worry everyone knows its op so your opinion isnt really valid its just funny to watch the same 10 people put X marks on the same posts every day

love this channel idk how the devs dont read it, its such a good comedy

[neon willow]

Well, the same can be said of any good player. I've seen a pack of Utah's get wasted by a single teno before.

Also to be clear-- Utah's are way faster than stego. The only way stego can nail a Utah is if the Utah is hunting said stego, or caught by surprise, basically. If a Utah noped out of there, the stego would never be able to catch it.

[azure hinge]

yeah but teno is killable and has actual stamina drain compared to stego

[neon willow]

As a side note, Utah's frequently use kiting to kill as well

[azure hinge]

they dont kite they bait attacks

a bit different

[neon willow]

They do both

One person baits, another runs in and kites a bite if pounce is impossible due to terrain

[azure hinge]

i mean yeah but any dino can do that with groups

[neon willow]

Gotta have someone bait at the same time because utahs are seriously delicate. Breathe on them wrong and they'll drop dead

[azure hinge]

only ones with tail attacks can really kite solo

otherwise utahs just run then bait an attack then go for their attack

stego can just run attack turn run attack

[neon willow]

But again the ones with tail attacks won't kite Utah's unless the Utah allow it. Utah can outrun teno and stego, though teno keeps up much better

[azure hinge]

cause they dont need to really reposition since their attack hits from the back

i mean yes but the argument of just run away isnt an argument

just run away from this dino in a game

[golden coral]

I mean.. yes, a deino on land. Why is a deino on land, much less fighting a stego. I figured that one was an obvious exception you know. Also smaller deinos are fast as can be, they might be able to do it honestly if it wasn't for lack of damage and health and all that.

[azure hinge]

sounds fun i want to just run away every time i see this specific dino

love it really engages me in good enjoyment afk growing and only attacking thigns that stand no chance against me

sounds fun yep balance u run away

[neon willow]

If there's a stego that is catching up to your Utah as you are running away from it, that manages to land a tail swipe, it's probably speed hacking imo. Stego has significantly worse stamina drain when running and speed than utah

[azure hinge]

stego can kill deino in water what u mean easily

[golden coral]

Yes. Stego is way too slow to do that in any useable fashion. And way too locked in movement when attacking. A stego running, attacking, running, can't do that reliably against anything but maybe an adult deino that really should not be fighting it at all, much less on land. And even if it can turn, that still locks the stego in place.

[azure hinge]

they just sit on edge and hti through half the water

its just a run away scenario

and no stego is not too slow

deino is TOO slow

[neon willow]

Not just run away. Temporary retreat, then as soon as stego is away from trees and low on stam? Dart back on him and lay on pressure

[azure hinge]

if you want an example of a slow dino in the game it is a deino on land and honestly in water still pretty slow

[golden coral]

Its really not. Just saying. Now if you want to see something invincible, look at deino. Barring stego, an adult deino can fight the entire roster on land, more efficiently than stego can really.

[azure hinge]

its not invincible if its on land what u mean

[golden coral]

And it's not your opinion for that matter?

[azure hinge]

stego can just run up to it and kill it in 5 hits

no its not an opinion from me youve seen all the posts about it being op

[golden coral]

Stego can jab a total of 20 times. That's not much.

[golden coral]

Those are still opnions. Just like mine is that stego is fine.

[azure hinge]

you know it keeps coming up because its true like you and maybe 10 other herbi's vehemently hate hearing that its op

no its not an opinion

it is 100% a fact and u know it

just like everyone knows utah is a bit op right now

[golden coral]

No it's not. It's very much an opinion, just like everyones is in feedback on what is op and not.

[azure hinge]

but its the 1 thing that can cause a stego to MAYBE die

[golden coral]

Because we all have our own ideas of what balance is.

[azure hinge]

so people are okay with utahs being a bit on the op side

no balance means things are balanced wtf

[golden coral]

Considering how many people complain about utahs, I don't know if they're all that okay.

[azure hinge]

bro a scale is not opinion

[golden coral]

Yes but balance is subjective.

[neon willow]

It's an opinion based on the facts of it's damage stats, range, stamina, speed, health, etc. Minor difference but still

[azure hinge]

okay im done typing ur just sad ima go play oldschool runescape

[golden coral]

Scale?

You're actually stupid if you don't realize that "balance" is subjective. We all have different ideas of how a matchup should go, and who should win, how easy, and so on.

[azure hinge]

scale yes balance is a scale, u know when u balance stuff so it doesnt fall down where the term came from

[golden coral]

There's no one way that "this is how a matchup should go".

[azure hinge]

no stego being op is not how it should go

[neon willow]

We don't need to attack people who have strong opinions

[azure hinge]

u saying something should be op because it is op is not balance

[golden coral]

Fair, but he can't claim one sentiment is fact and another is opinion when they're both sentiments on how a matchup should go.

[azure hinge]

not claiming it is fact, its literally true

[golden coral]

But it's not op. You think it is, I disagree. I think utah is op, plenty of people disagree. Because balance isn't a given, much less in a survival game for that matter.

I'd say deino is far more OP than stego is for that matter.

[azure hinge]

so you think being able to hit over 20 times with a tail that does over 1k dmg isnt op and the fact that hitting with your tail is a negative multiplied area on an animal that is already 7.5 tons of tanks is fair?

and can run across half the map with its stamina

yes deino is op in the sense it can be the best afk grower and only need fish i agree with you

in that sense deino is very op,

[neon willow]

We're saying it is should not be op, and it's not op based on the fact that Utah packs regularly kill stegos. It's not easy, but it's done. We're also saying that a stego cannot run a Utah down if the Utah moves out of the way until the stego is forced to give up

[azure hinge]

bro you are so funny i like you

[golden coral]

Well, it is a survival game. You're not meant to fight everything. So running away is very much a valid argument yes. And attacking things that stand no chance is smart gameplay for that matter.

[ocean sentinel]

Both Deino and Stego don't really fit in the game in it's current state and are pretty much entirely above the current roster. We've discussed this countless times.

[azure hinge]

they kill lone stegos not group stegos cause thats all stegos do now is group cause something can finally kill it

[neon willow]

True. He's upset about stego 1-shotting Utah's... And possibly a potential speed hacker stego that can outrun raptors

[thin mantle]

That’s….hilarious

[azure hinge]

just cause half a group of utahs die to kill 1 stego ( if the stego is bad maybe more if the stego is good ) it doesnt mean utahs kill stegos

[ocean sentinel]

It would look pretty stupid if Stego's tail hit didn't oneshot Utahs.

[azure hinge]

that is balance they trade like half a pack to kill a lone stego

[golden coral]

Yes. More fair than being able to oneshot most of the roster with one attack, like deino can. Or having a magnetic ability that is outright brainless to use. xD

[azure hinge]

i never said anything about stegos 1 shotting utahs

idc if utahs get 1 shot

[golden coral]

This is very true.

[golden coral]

I.. don't really know what hackers have to do with any argument to be honest. Much as I can understand frustration if you die to one.

[azure hinge]

ive seen so many people quit the game cause of them complaining about stego its just funny to me to watch people argue otherwise

and now people just resort to "doesnt fit in game"

[thin mantle]

If that’s why they quit I genuinely don’t care about what their complaints are….that’s just….hilarious

[azure hinge]

now deino doesnt fit in game because its a water creature with nothing to kill in the water, and humans know how to avoid deinos pretty easy so

LOOOOOOOOOOL yep ur a great gamer

ur funny

[azure hinge]

u a league player, sounds like a league player take

[golden coral]

I've.. yet to see anyone quit the game due to a stego.

Or any other playable for that matter

That honestly sounds.. well, I've died to some bs in my time.. but quitting due to that, I don't know

[neon willow]

Adults can't run across half the map. They can't even run across half of center, AND they're slow runners compared to most playables. That's the entire reason it has lots of health and high damage (although it wouldn't hurt to decrease their base health SLIGHTLY)

[golden coral]

I mean.. they did kill the stego so.. utahs do kill stegos, at a cost, sure, but still.

[thin mantle]

Stego literally cannot negatively effect you unless you’ve attacked it….if it being “oppressive” is what causes you to quit the game….well….that’s just a colossal self own

[azure hinge]

o so what you are saying its finally a sense of balance?

ty for proving the point for me fluff

[golden coral]

It is actually. Because you see, stego is a terrible choice for utahs to hunt. Now if it was a trike instead, then you'd see much less utah losses most likely, if balance is done properly.

[azure hinge]

trike isnt scary thing moves at a snails pace compared to stego

[thin mantle]

Stego has literally always been this way….

[azure hinge]

yes i know thats crazy isnt it

[golden coral]

Im pretty sure trike will be faster than stego, just so you know. And my point was that trike wouldnt cost half your utah pack to kill, so it'd be a better choice. Thats part of balance. As in, different targets, different difficulty. You're arguing that stego is OP, Im arguing that its not, due to the fact that current roster isnt meant to hunt it.

[thin mantle]

Wait I may have missed it, what is your point? Just for clarity

[golden coral]

Another reason why balance isn't quite so clear, if you want to balance for current roster, vs full roster, is another thing to take into account.

[azure hinge]

something finally got buffed to the point where it stood a chance against a stego

[thin mantle]

But deino already did in pairs, Utah already did…..the only other predator in game is Carno….so……

[golden coral]

Stego can to be fair run for surprisingly long. And it shouldn't. It should however, have a good trot, like most playables. Since trot is what you should use for travel, not running.

[azure hinge]

no deino did not kill stegos unless they chose to swim in the water for a long time

[thin mantle]

Well, that’s just objectively incorrect. So I guess all I can say is no

[azure hinge]

ive killed so many deino 3v1 on my stego

[golden coral]

I can assure you, stegos have grouped all of the time, just like deinos group, despite being cannibals. And you're saying they should just die then, and not be smart and play to survive? :p

[azure hinge]

like every day

[thin mantle]

U3 deino could solo stego for the longest time

[azure hinge]

i fish for deinos for days its so fun

[thin mantle]

Then those deinos deserved it lol, they were titanically bad

[azure hinge]

yeah no u are right fluff on that one in u3

no im just a human and good at video games so i can play against whatever they are trying to do

and they always get frustrated with trying to hit head so they try to start trading

and trading u always lose against stego

[thin mantle]

Like if you’re even dying to stegos as a deino in the first place I’d define that as a skill issue since you possess an environment where they can’t pursue you into

[thin mantle]

Yeah that’s just panic, no competent deino would trade with a stego’s ass

[azure hinge]

no i dislike the run away argument thats not an argument, thats like saying u should just go afk in a bush instead of playing a video game

[golden coral]

No, you shouldn't afk. Thats not gameplay

[azure hinge]

eh its not panic they just get bored of being full grown and not getting much action tbh

[golden coral]

But that's not the same as choosing your fights.

[azure hinge]

most deinos are bored out their mind

[thin mantle]

AFK and surviving an engagement by avoiding the threat are not at all similar

[golden coral]

A dryo runs away from a utah, thats what it does.

[azure hinge]

well they dont stand a chance in the engagement so they shouldnt engage at all

[golden coral]

A rex runs away from two angry trikes. There's no shame or otherwise issue in finding yourself up against something you can not fight

[thin mantle]

So…..it’s suicide…..then why are we discussing those players in a Discussion of balance

[azure hinge]

well probably against a deino vs stego on a waters edge it doesnt really make sense that a stego can 1v3 in the discussion of balance

[thin mantle]

Yes…..literally yes…. Statistically speaking a line deino can solo a stego, it’s just really hard to do, 2 deinos can consistently take stegos down with an ounce of strategy…. This is also a survival game, if you can run from a threat that you can’t fight, then you’re balanced

[azure hinge]

ive never been killed by a deino on my stego

only ever died to raptors cause baby spam holding bleeds on me is fun

but thats only happened like 2 times so not a big deal to me

[golden coral]

@azure hingeYou know, I'll grant you a point that balance can be a scale. But here's the issue, you can have 10 of something, balancing out 1 of the other. And this is where it becomes very subjective. Because in a game, where there's no real "value", we all have different ideas of what should match the other. This is why it's mostly opinion and not facts. Because you can make one, two, three, four, or five utahs match a single teno. All of that can be "balanced", but which number to choose is not a given, because we can change to balance no matter the number.

[neon willow]

Baby pounce is something that needs work for balance, but that's a different topic.

Erik had a really good post explaining balance and picking your battles. The main point was comparing 2 similar quadrupeds with spikey weapons(trike and stego) and their suitability for utahs.

Stego's tail attack aoe makes it well suited to fight smaller packed creatures. This means that Utah's should have a tough time against it, but larger dinos that can tank a few hits, get into the radius of that attack, and headshot should be better suited for hunting them. Things like rexes, eg.

Trike has the neck shield and horns, which makes it suited to tanking damage from the front while dealing massive damage also to the front. That means it's suited to fighting slow, non-agile apexes, but because of its mass, it likely has slow turn, making it a much easier fight for smaller pack dinos to bait and wear down.

This isn't saying it's impossible for a rex to kill a trike, nor that it's impossible for Utahs to kill stego. But with more playables in game, it may be easier and the smarter thing to do to skip over the fight you aren't as well suited for, and choose a fight you have a better chance of winning

[ocean sentinel]

On the topic of balance being subjective, you also have to consider what kind of game any given game is trying to be. Balancing the Isle is very different from balancing a hero shooter, and both a very different from balancing a single player hack and slash brawler.

[golden coral]

That it is. Especially since part of balancing here do seem to take into account the whole "run away" part, no matter if people like that style or not.

[ocean sentinel]

To be fair its easy to see why people don't like balancing things entirely around running away, and it does negatively impact the game, with dryo and hypsi being far rarer than they need to be.

But then again its kinda hard to make them fight back in a way that isn't laughable

[golden coral]

This is also an issue with minimal roster I'd say. Most things should probably have a few things they run away from, a majority of things they interact with, good or bad, and then another few things that are just "go for it".

Even dryo and hypsi can have something they can mess with, just like even the apexes can have something they'd rather walk away from. (other apexes really)

[neon willow]

That's fair. It's not fun if everything is "run away if you want to live". But the big difference between dryo/hypsi and Utah or carno is the latter 2 can fight most things effectively. Not being able to fight one dino isn't that big a deal... As long as said dino is able to be taken down by different dinos instead

[ocean sentinel]

To be honest I don't think the relationship between deino and stego is optimal. Since they are the two most overpowered things in the game currently, I do think it makes sense for them to be encouraged to fight more. Maybe if they could give the lunge a tug of war mechanic so the grab limit can be removed or increased without just making it blatantly op against things that should be able to fight off a deino most of the time, like Stego. Of course thats just my opinion.

[golden coral]

It's not optimal, or rather, both of them lack their own biome based interactions. Ideally, a deino and stego should.. probably just glare at each other and call it a day. Because they both have other things to worry about and no cause to mess themselves up for no good reason.

A deino would not want to mess with a stego even if it could, if it knows a passing spino might finish the job. And same for stego except it'd be a rex or acro or something.

[ocean sentinel]

That depends on a lot of factors

[golden coral]

At least I'd like to see apexes in general be more wary and not just "oh hey, I can fight big things". Yeah, sure, but you're putting yourself in a vunerable position so why would you unless you need it.

[ocean sentinel]

Whether they meet on land or in the water, how hungry the deino is, whether or not any off them have a group

Though your average interaction, with a well fed deino, meeting on the riverside, then they should just keep their distance.

Predators by nature target the vulnerable, Deino definitely shouldn't really be encourage to hunt stego as one of its main prey items, but it should definitely be on the table as a last resort option.

I should note doable and easy are not the same thing

My problem with the stego-deino relationship isn't that Stego has an advantage in most situations, but that it feels completely untouchable except for river crossings. This could just be me having a lack of experience hunting them as a Deino, but I see a lot of people complaining about Stego, so I feel like there's some validity to it.

[golden coral]

I don't know honestly, but my experience in general is that.. well, people are really quite bad at this game. Or in some cases more likely stupid. So it's hard to judge how the matchups really go. I recently had a utah literally run up my rear as a teno to start biting me, when I was running in a straight line in an obvious bait. (yes, the utah regretted that idea well and truly). And for deino vs stego, you really do need to work well in a team, which I imagine most randoms aren't quite good at doing. That and you need to be willing to commit and not react in panic even if the bloody screen looks rather bad.

[ocean sentinel]

One problem that should be noted about getting experience with combat is you don't have many opportunities

[golden coral]

And that is why I've argued for sandbox as soon as possible.

[ocean sentinel]

The best thing to do is to just avoid unneccesary encounters, which means less fights.

[golden coral]

But for some reason the devs do not seem keen on that idea, with somoene saying the roster is too small to make it worth.

[ocean sentinel]

Meaning you just have too little time with each matchup to learn how to perform well.

[golden coral]

So you're spot on, it's not easy to get much experience, especially with the critters taking longer to grow, since if you die, which you will more often than not, it's a pain and a bore to come back.

[ocean sentinel]

In the roughly 120 hours I've played Evrima, a decent chunk of that being as Deino, I've dealt with only 4 Stegos in a violent encounter

2 of them were part of the same encounter

Considering how short these fights tend to be, there simply isn't much time to learn in them.

[alpine plover]

Has anyone figured out if running / walking makes a difference in metabolism drain?

[golden coral]

@fervent cedarIt can't drown a stego above 4T, but considering how the grab/lunge works, and the lack of counterplay, I'd say that's a good thing. If we get better and more interactive mechanics in the future, a deino should be able to play tug of war with any of the large critters, though not neccesarily to the deinos advantage.

[golden coral]

Not that I know of. But I've not tested. Just never heard of it making any difference.

[fervent cedar]

Makes sense. I think a sort of like struggle for Deino for bigger creatures would be interesting to see. Like some creatures can fight off the grip better and for the Deino it would depend possibly on a lot where it grabs on a creature.

[golden coral]

Would be a lot more fun and interesting yes!

[ocean sentinel]

Yeah, you could maybe even grab body parts to prevent them from being used in combat.

Though that might be a stretch

It would definitely nice to see the lunge be more skill based.

[gusty viper]

stego need buff

[golden coral]

Makes sense of course, you go on the offense as one of the most defensively oriented playables and expect that to work out xD

[alpine plover]

Am I the only one who thinks that playing carno is very frustrating?
1- The stomach empties too quickly, considering everything you eat.
2- Secondary attack practically useless in fights.
3- Abusive bleeding, 3 utahs punces you're dead
4- Hitbox. It is absurd that a face-to-face Utah comes and jumps on your back. Indefensible
5- The mechanism of getting rid of a utah only works sometimes
It doesn't make sense how weak it is, considering how long it takes to grow. If 2 utahs know how to play a minimum, you're dead. Knowing that the number of dinosaurs currently in the game means that there are too many utahs, I think it urgently needs a buff

[tranquil pawn]

[half girder]

i get where you’re coming from but 3 utahs should def be a hard challenge for 1 carno, with bleed having little to no counter play your best bet is to just try to use trees, rocks, water or that big mud pool at south if you feel you aren’t capable of timing alt bites etc.

as carno especially solo a stealthy play style is best, avoiding plains and stick to jungles, ambush whenever possible if you have a nice position, hunger isnt too much of an issue if you know the map well and ai spawns

hope that helps

[frail bobcat]

@harsh lark and for what are we gonna have weight then?

[slim dragon]

Weight would still affect the amount of food provided by a body, the amount of food needed to be full stomach, fall damage, pounce and grab thresholds, and trample damage later on, when it gets implemented

[frail bobcat]

ok

[alpine plover]

Just chased down a carno as Utah. Carno runs out of stamina a little too fast as well.

It's faster, but the stamina drain makes it where that speed doesn't account for much when trying to escape. He was screwed.

I honestly just feel like the carno needs a few adjustments

13% less stam drain when sprinting
15% less bleed damage from utah
15% less metabolism drain

That kind of adjust may make Carno feel slightly better without making it get out of control.

[strange rivet]

maybe a greater scent radius to find meat as a scavenger

[frail bobcat]

carno is no scavenger

[frail bobcat]

the only thing it needs is the metabolism change

[alpine plover]

Nah, Utah bleed is too high for a built in Aimbot.

Or they need to make a Utah miss last longer.

[frail bobcat]

that

I suggest giving the face pounces a animation and make them less effective

[frail bobcat]

its a bleeder

and a glass cannon

[alpine plover]

Definitely needs a bit more stam. It's a runner. Utah and Pachy's can keep up with you and that feels off.

[ocean sentinel]

What if juvi Carnos were good jumpers, but gradually lose the ability as they grow?

Could allow them to get onto rocks where adult Carnos can't reach, or cross rivers better to escape.

I'm trying to think of ways to make each dinosaur viable in it's juvi stage, because right now growth feels like an extended respawn timer with much of the roster.

[alpine plover]

Juvi stage can be fun if you get out and take irsk

I usually run around as Juvi Carno and Utah attacking other babies.

[ocean sentinel]

Yeah but the risk of getting caught is too high

And things are generally most interesting once you've grown up, so why risk dying as a juvi?

The only juvi animal that seems viable out of the ones I played is Deino.

[alpine plover]

I think it may be a mindset thing. Juvi stage can be made fun if don't just hide in a bush. It's a playstyle.

[ocean sentinel]

If afk growing in a bush is the most logical way to play, then people will do it, regardless if its fun or not.

[carmine patrol]

True, but why risk dying in exchange of fun?

[ocean sentinel]

Its a general game design rule to make the most fun way to play a game the most optimal in terms of effectiveness.

Otherwise people will play in unfun ways to better optimize there performance.

Therefore every member of the roster should be viable in some way as a juvi.

Or at the very least it should be easier for them to find a group to protect them, which does make them viable in a way.

Though its probably not the most interesting way of doing it

[half girder]

its not. neither is sub adult.

[azure crescent]

sub deino:

(Deino is an exception)

[half girder]

i mean obv, it got a weight buff

[azure crescent]

it did?

[half girder]

yes

it gains weight faster

[azure crescent]

damn lmao

that’s great tbh

[half girder]

and dmg buff

yeah its amazing

[azure crescent]

sub deino is the best non adult growth stage of the game

[half girder]

mhm

wish i could stay at that age tbh, adult deino is boring

[azure crescent]

true

[half girder]

could just keep one diet

[azure crescent]

if deino made it to legacy i could’ve seen that happening

btw i’m planning to make a hypothetical “stats list” for ovi, opinions on making males twice as big as females, with the trade off of females being sneakier and males being more combat capable?

i know size differences with gender are kinda weird but i think ovi is a special case considering how colorful the male is

[half girder]

gl with that

[azure crescent]

do you think it’d be unbalanced for the game or anything?

[half girder]

tbh yes

just wait for the perk system

[warm lagoon]

I miss when utah took skill

[half girder]

since when?

[hasty coyote]

Male Hypsi is also colorful and has more feathers, but it’s still only cosmetic differences.
Plus, I’ll list out a few issues with making different genders have different stats:
1: you essentially have to balance out 2 separate creatures.
2. People will always pick the more meta gender, which can make nesting hard.
3. If they are both balanced, people still will side towards more combat potential.
4. People will be nested in and just die because they didn’t like their gender. People already die because they don’t like colors, imagine stats.

There would also be even more issues in game that we can’t even predict.

[analog mirage]

I doubt Ovi would be combat capable at all. Seems more like it would purely be a thief

Max bite I could see for Ovi would be like 25.

[fresh laurel]

@analog mirage from my gameplay pounce doesnt take priority from any stun moves and carno can still hit you if you try going for the face...
Its about timing

[azure crescent]

I was thinking that the males could have spurs as a secondary attack

[azure crescent]

That is a very fair point

[azure crescent]

Is there a way this can be balanced? I think that if any stat differences between gender can be balanced it'd be really unique for ovi to have it, as it'd stand out from galli

• The males, while bigger and more combat capable (only with similarly sized animals which isn't saying a lot), stand out WAY more than the females, as they potentially have THE most diverse and "bright" skin palette in the roster

both genders have advantages

male:
pros: bigger/tankier (~120-195 kg), has spurs similar to that of rooster on the back of each foot, can do a "rooster kick" with them with RMB or alt-rmb (i assume the latter)
cons: stands out a lot more and struggles in combat with things utah sized and larger, needing to escape them in that situation (females do this better)

female:
pros: normal ovi sized (~40-65 kg), duller/more camo colors, more agile (turns way faster), overall just better at surviving
cons: can't fight things as well as males

[tranquil pawn]

@warm lagoon, first off, all creatures have a cooldown on their attacks, pachy can fracture so its attack needs a cooldown, it's not frickin nearly six seconds, more like half a second to one second and finally ( I apologize if this one gets a bit rude ) but if you're having problems with pachy cooldown that's a skill issue, it's quite easy to time your rams to hit the opposition.

[unborn iris]

I agree juvi/small utahs shouldn't be able to cause bleed on anything significantly bigger than them.. but the rest of that is just you not knowing how to fight utahs. Pounce is so easily negated with terrain. And why shouldn't 2 one hour grows be a threat to 1 two hour grow dino, if you want to use that logic?

[paper tulip]

@quick latch clearly you don’t know what your taking about Decreasing bleed dose not make Utah bad it just stops it from having 3 Utah’s that take 1 hour to grow kill a full adult stego when they just use stam for bleed like I said nerfing a % of bleed so baby’s can’t keep bleed on you when your an a adult and having 2 Utah’s bleed out a carno it should take at least 3-4 for a carno and at least 5 for a stego not 3 so you putting an X and saying Utah bleed is fine makes you a Utah main cause it clearly is not fine yes pounces should be harder but why tf can 3 easy click button dinos bleed a Dino that takes 5 hours to grow just by pouncing for 5 sec running around it and repeating it makes not sense so yes nerf bleed so instead of 3 Utah’s killing a stego they need at least 5

[mint rain]

Play raptor, find 2 other people, try to fight a stego, and come back and let us know how it went.

[paper tulip]

So major skill gap huh?

[azure crescent]

if a stego dies to 3 utahs it's genuinely a skill issue

[paper tulip]

I play Utah couple times 2nd time adult I took out a carno with a friend without even getting hit easiest hunt in my life

Bleed wise You only need 3 Utah’s to end a stego quick if we’re not taking in trees water and smart players into factor

A full adult carno has to bite a rock hiding raccoon 3-4 times while the raccoon just hugs it for 5 sec and it dies if it can’t sit

[azure crescent]

why wouldn't trees and water be taken into account?

[mint rain]

skill cope

[azure crescent]

naturally they'll be put into use

[paper tulip]

Cause not every player is gonna use a tree or water we’re talking open land

[mint rain]

Using terrain vs pounce has been a thing since day 1

[azure crescent]

there's trees in open land too

[paper tulip]

What you want me to say Utah needs buff cause water and tree OP?

[azure crescent]

no lmao

i'm saying it doesn't need anything

[mint rain]

the map is like 90% trees,rocks,water,hills, and cliffs

[azure crescent]

if you, as a stego, die to 3 utahs, you ACTUALLY need to get good

[paper tulip]

1 pounce for 5 sec and you turning and waking and running a bit to dodge pounces will drain your bleed to maybe 40-60% as a carno

[mint rain]

you can still hit raptors as they dismount as a stego too lmaoooo

[paper tulip]

One Utah does that

A Utah that takes 1 hour to grow

[azure crescent]

depends on stamina, hunger and thirst

[paper tulip]

Like a ptera

[azure crescent]

keep atleast 2 of those topped up and you'll be fine

[paper tulip]

Stam hunger and thirst can be full adult you still lose?

[mint rain]

idk what to tell ya

if ya scared hide

[azure crescent]

if you lose to 1 utah as an adult carno with full hunger stam and thirst you are actually the worst player in the game

i'm sorry but it's true

[paper tulip]

Bro it’s a metaphor

[azure crescent]

it's a bad metaphor

[paper tulip]

Okay Utah main

[azure crescent]

i main teno and deino

[paper tulip]

Am I making u pissy over ur favourite Dino

[mint rain]

LMAO

[azure crescent]

no i hate utahs lmao

i kill them on sight as teno usually

[paper tulip]

I’m taking about bleed terms

1v1 with carno vs Utah

[azure crescent]

utah's bleed is fine if you know how to take on utahs as carno

bro carno vs utah in a 1v1 carno wins

[mint rain]

BRUH

[paper tulip]

If Utah hits one pounce for 5 sec carno lost half of its bleed that’s on barley turning running an walking

[azure crescent]

okay that's just straight up not true

[paper tulip]

But if carno is smart carno wins every time

[azure crescent]

hold on

[mint rain]

please link him that video so he can get better

[azure crescent]

https://youtu.be/X_DSe1KLuG4

[paper tulip]

But your thinking full on 1v1 and forgetting I’m talking about bleeding terms

[azure crescent]

bleeding wise carno can do bleed faster than utah lol, utah can just do more in long term

[paper tulip]

I know for a fact your not talking

[azure crescent]

just watch the vid lmao

[paper tulip]

Don’t send me videos on how to get better when I’m talking to a person who plays deino and tento

[azure crescent]

my brother in christ i am trying to help you

[paper tulip]

That instigator ain’t

[alpine plover]

if a Utah hits a 5 second pounce and you’re bucking, you could literally run it down

[azure crescent]

?

[azure crescent]

^

[paper tulip]

Like I said with a smart player not really Utah can do sharp turns causing carno to slide

[azure crescent]

this chart has all examples being a full, non bucked pounce

[mint rain]

bro this game

[alpine plover]

yes but it will have very little stam after that, it needs stam to survive lol

[azure crescent]

only ONE out of these situations ends up in below 50% blood

and these are a utah's full stamina, no bucking

[mint rain]

i thought he said with bucking?

[unborn iris]

It was with bucking.

[azure crescent]

p sure he said it was a full one until the utah fell off

[unborn iris]

Yeah, but with bucking. It's even on the screen as an afterthought, I think.

[azure crescent]

when?

must've missed it

[frail bobcat]

Stam

[azure crescent]

even then, with bucking it's a better example because a carno is naturally going to buck a utah in a fight

[unborn iris]

1:32 it says * With bucking

[azure crescent]

ah

[mint rain]

you'd be surprised

[azure crescent]

oh i know

i'm just assuming that plopper is atleast smart enough to buck

[mint rain]

hit "E"

[paper tulip]

With bucking without bucking 5 sec is short let’s say a Utah pounces a carno for 5 sec he falls gets bucked gets hit once gets away hides on rock not much bleed head that goes to carno gives his bleed back now carno had to chase hit can’t make sharp turns so Utah abuses it hides on rock again now either the Utah continues that or carno runs to hide to heal after killing the Utah and a juv comes pounces carno and he dies

[unborn iris]

Right now 2 utahs is a threat to a solo carno. The more carnos you get I feel like it is balanced more in the carnos favor. Like 6v3 is a little rough. It's a good balance.

[mint rain]

ok he doesn't play this game

[unborn iris]

Juvi utahs should 100% not be doing bleed to big things, though.

[azure crescent]

how does utah hide on a rock without any stam lmao

[paper tulip]

Me and my friend were full grown Frank’s vs 11 Utah’s ranging from full adult to sub to juv it’s a death scenario

[azure crescent]

i mean yeah it's 11 utahs

a 1v1 is way different

[paper tulip]

But we killed 6 before juvs and others kept coming back and giving bleed which we can never heal and die

[azure crescent]

also in that example the carno is the worst player ever and the utah is stam hacking

if a utah falls off it has no stam

[paper tulip]

I play Utah cause if you can’t beat em join em me and my friend hunted a tento and bled it out in 2 min just me and him

[mint rain]

I don't think Juvi utahs should be able to "start" bleed but if I've been pounced a couple times by adults and I'm hurt juvi utahs should be able to keep bleed going

[azure crescent]

and it somehow jumped to a rock???

[tranquil pawn]

[azure crescent]

answer the question plopper

that example is garbage

[unborn iris]

I disagree. You shouldn't just be able to spawn back in as a juvi and stop something from healing it's bleed indefinitely.

[azure crescent]

utah is stam hacking and the carno doesn't know to do headshots

[paper tulip]

If you pounce and they buck you can still pounce for a few seconds have half stam and run away

[paper tulip]

I do ????

[azure crescent]

you said the utah fell off. for a utah to fall off it needs to run out of stam fully

btw if a utah pounces a carno for 5 secs WITH bucking the carno can run the utah down

[paper tulip]

Bro it’s not pouncing until it falls off it pounces for a few sec has enough to get away get more stam and pounce for few more and then bam never lets carno sit carno dead think what I’m saying and stop being a smart ass

[azure crescent]

Hey, you said it not me

[paper tulip]

I meant like latching off

[azure crescent]

ah

[paper tulip]

Like stop holding right click

[azure crescent]

after 5 secs??? with bucking???

idk chief that seems like 20% stam or less

[paper tulip]

It’s an exaggeration

[tranquil pawn]

bucking burns through your stam in like 1-3 seconds lol

[azure crescent]

^

[tranquil pawn]

5 seconds is a fricking lot

[azure crescent]

5 seconds is enough for the carno to get 2 headshots on the utah after it falls to the ground

[paper tulip]

So the utah holds on for 2.3456 seconds but only has 36.777777 stam left which it exceeds a distance from latching off of 1.2 metered which gives… like bro come on

[tranquil pawn]

I've been bucked once and had my stam gone in less than a second lmao, full diet and stam and everything XD

[azure crescent]

2.3 seconds gives utah like 10% stam

maybe 20%?

[paper tulip]

No it does not

[azure crescent]

it does

[tranquil pawn]

it literally does

[azure crescent]

wanna hop on scope to find out?

[paper tulip]

I latched on a carno as it bucks and I pounces bleed for at least 3 seconds and got away with like 30% stam which it took me 5% stam to run away from the fight

[azure crescent]

hop on scopeog's server

let's do some testing

[paper tulip]

I’m on my phone right now can we later?

[azure crescent]

sure

[tranquil pawn]

3 seconds is a lot of time ingame, u sure?

[paper tulip]

I’ll DM you

[azure crescent]

DM when you're ready

[tranquil pawn]

in intense action time can seem to go faster y'know

[paper tulip]

K sorry I pounces for 0.25 milliseconds

[tranquil pawn]

lol

[azure crescent]

that does no bleed at all

[paper tulip]

Dude I clearly pounces for 3 sec 1 free second then he bucks then I get off after losing chunks of stam and run to have 15 metered between me and him then trot (example)

[tranquil pawn]

oh yeah, I forgot, there's a cooldown on buck, that may have been a reason why

[paper tulip]

Omg brain dead Utah mains

[unborn iris]

Everyone's just trying to get better at the game. And respectfully as possible, it seems like you are missing a few key strategies to combat pounce. There are many different terrain options to almost fully negate it.

[tranquil pawn]

I main hypsi

[paper tulip]

So if I latch on in that little millisecond you gonna buck?

No it’s gonna take a second to stop and start bucking

[paper tulip]

Then we shouldn’t be talking right now

[unborn iris]

At least you finally realize it.

[tranquil pawn]

they removed the initial bleed from when you latch on so for like half a second it doesn't do bleed

[paper tulip]

Any other Dino pounce is not an issue except carno and bleed being a huge factor in the amount of little juvs and Utah’s running around

[unborn iris]

That's only for pins, not normal pounces.

So the carno needs to be careful when going around a lot of other dinos that have it on it's diet? Imagine that.

That must be a strange feeling.

[tranquil pawn]

Anywho I've got self deprecating to do

cya folks

[paper tulip]

Utah needs 3-4 carno bites to die Carno needs a couple of pounces 😀😀

[unborn iris]

Carno can one shot utah with a charge. Carno needs nerf.

Your logic just doesn't work.

[paper tulip]

1 charge and a bite

[unborn iris]

No, one charge to the head is death for a utah.

[paper tulip]

That’s the head ffs 💀

Who tf is gonna stay still near a carno

[unborn iris]

👋 😬

[paper tulip]

So point proven?

I’m proving something you don’t want to see

[unborn iris]

Find a friend, let's get on a test server. You go utahs and I'll go carno and show you how to fight them.

Hell, get two friends.

[paper tulip]

Ain’t home right now but I’ll Dm you

When me and my friend get home we’ll hop on and do this test server stuff

And you don’t need to show me how to play carno I know I need you to see how overpowered it’s gonna be for 2 Utah’s that know what to do vs 1 pro carno

You still lose

Cause your always getting pounces and bucking takes stam from you too

[unborn iris]

👍

Because it sounds like you don't know, if you're getting killed by two utahs.

[paper tulip]

I need more than 3 but the average carno dies to 2

I need more than 2 I mean

I’ll say this for the 3rd time ffs me and my friend played Utah no we don’t main it no we don’t play it on the daily but we tried after losing our carnos we killed 1 carno with 2 Utah’s we killed 1 tento eith 2 Utah’s and for the cherry on top 2 of us killed 2 pachys

I’m on session

In*

One*

[unborn iris]

So you are basing your opinion off of a single encounter. Wtf kind of sense does that make.

[paper tulip]

I’ve played 3-4 times Utah same results every time easy kills easy fights easy bleed

I versed many Utah’s easy fight until hard bleed to win

Oh yeah are we forgetting those Utah’s take 1 hour to grow like a ptera while a carno takes 2h30min

Just saying 😬

[unborn iris]

Utah is 70 minutes, carno is 120 minutes. So actually two utahs is more grow than a carno.

So 2 utahs should be a threat to a carno.

[paper tulip]

So if 2 Utah’s are a threat to a carno why tf is carno 1.8 tons not a threat to 2 Utah’s?

🧐

[unborn iris]

It is...

[paper tulip]

Add me @unborn iris so I can add you to this testing group

[azure crescent]

It is, it can one shot them with a right click

[unborn iris]

I actually feel like I've lost any interest in helping you get better. You refuse to see any opinion but your own, built from obviously very limited experience.

[quick latch]

Btw plopper I’m not a Utah main

I see what you mean but utahs are meant to be dangerous and rn the game still has some work to do maybe it’s not utahs bleed and it’s the other Dino’s bleed resistance there is a lot of things going on and I have to admit balancing isn’t the number one thing on the devs plate rn they have a lot going on and while I’m a big advocate for balancing all the Dinos I can understand the devs point of view and I think it just needs to be left to qa to do some work and us to drop our opinions

[warm lagoon]

Oh Josh... you've been a very bad boy

[nimble sigil]

Should there be a buff for the stegosaurus tail hit radius? I noticed people getting hit and killed being no where near the tail?

[fresh laurel]

Carno can just buck

[alpine plover]

Please please fix the Utah bleed rate on Carno

I mean it's utterly game breaking for Carno

[fresh laurel]

Thats just carno bleed as a whole, not just utah being the problem

[alpine plover]

You cannot run away, you cannot fight because you are bleeding so fast

[fresh laurel]

Also carno should want to keep stamina and food and water full when fighting things with bleed

[alpine plover]

Yes, but the bleed stops any stamina regen and I am biting Utahs 5 or 6 times. The bleed rate is just too much ruining the dino.

[fresh laurel]

You could just not engage if you arent sure you can win tbh
Dont fight that one utah pack
Avoid that teno kick
Dont fight stego

[alpine plover]

Utah has too much tank with an aimbot with that bleed rate.

[fresh laurel]

Bleed doesnt stop stam regen

[alpine plover]

Oh yes it does.

[fresh laurel]

Bleed can slow down stamina regen heavily depending how low you get

[hasty coyote]

it does when you hit half bleed, but not before it

[alpine plover]

Right, but if you sprent you're in half bleed within 60 seconds.

sprint

[fresh laurel]

A tank...?

Man has 450 hp

[alpine plover]

Yeah, I just alt bit a Utah twice and still running around after a third bite.

Not sure how he survived.

[fresh laurel]

Dont sprint with bleed that much

[alpine plover]

You don't have to sprint. They can sit there and stare you as you bleed.

Then aimbot jump you after they regain stam.

[fresh laurel]

If they werent head hits then utah can live
You may of hit the tail possibly

[nimble sigil]

I play as a Utah main, I remember at one time taking on a carno was pretty much certain death and still is in a lot of ways providing you aren’t alone and have a good pack.

[hasty coyote]

thats why you don't sprint unless you know you can escape or find better terrain. You should find a tree, cliff, slope, or rock and try to defend yourself there.

[fresh laurel]

A carno mercs utahs still
A good one i mean

[alpine plover]

That's what I did. They just stare at you as you bleed. Get one bite and you bleed forever again

Carno doesn't merc Utah. I killed three in the last two days solo.

[fresh laurel]

You ever heard of buck?

Trees?

Slopes...?

[alpine plover]

Yup, buck works okay. But you're bleeding like a stuck pig. And then they get one bite on you and you keep bleeding and bleeding. heavily

[hasty coyote]

then bite them as they go to bite you

[alpine plover]

I do. I alt bit it twice, and got a regular bite.

[fresh laurel]

One bite from utah wont really do much bleed, its your fault if you let the bites stack tbh

[alpine plover]

The problem is, you shouldnt be bleeding like a stuck pig.

[fresh laurel]

You probably hit the tail at some point

[alpine plover]

I'm sure I did. I couldn't sprint remember? L:ike you said, you're bleeding.

[hasty coyote]

also, were you low on hunger/thirst? that can affect bleed heavily

[nimble sigil]

I mean the more bites the utahs get in the more you bleed. That’s the strategy is keeping the bleed going. But it does stop fairly quickly a lot of times too

[fresh laurel]

You can hit them as they get near

[alpine plover]

Now, I had time to sit for a good 2 minutes and still was bleeding before they got another bite.

[fresh laurel]

Its kinda on the carno for letting the utahs stack bite bleed

[alpine plover]

What I am saying, is the Carno is not balanced, not that it cannot kill.

A Utah has an Aimbot built in by the devolopers that cause mass bleeding.

[fresh laurel]

Kills solo smalls fine thats for sure

[fresh laurel]

What aim bot?

[alpine plover]

Pounce

[fresh laurel]

That isnt a aim bot

[alpine plover]

They can pounce you from like any angle almost

It's an autolock. It's an aimbot.

[hasty coyote]

its honestly a bit too forgiving.

[alpine plover]

I just got pounced from head one. Like really? Teleported to my side

[fresh laurel]

I guess but you can still hit utah as it tries that

[alpine plover]

Once a CARNO has been pounced, escape is impossible.

You have to fight.

[fresh laurel]

Not really, depends how much pounce they got on you

[alpine plover]

No, it doesn't matter. They're getting that 3 second limit. If they're on three seconds, you're screwed if you run.

[fresh laurel]

Apso again, if you arent sure with your skill vs utah, then dont engage

[alpine plover]

I kill Carnos as Utah. I know how it works

I soloed three in two days , adults.

That's the problem. Just bleed them and wait it out.

The problem is, carno does not kill a Utah as easily as a Utah kills a carno.

Unless you take it by surprise.

[nimble sigil]

I don’t know about that

The problem with carnos now is that they can’t turn on a dime like before

[alpine plover]

Yes, if a Utah is a decent player, you'll never get him.

Carno has too many negatives right now vs the goods.

[nimble sigil]

But they aren’t made to be agile

[alpine plover]

Utah on the other hand is satisfying and quick to play.

Right, then they need speed or tank. Utah can fairly easily get a Carno. There's only so many places to run and that stamina drain is rapid.

[hasty coyote]

generally, if a carno sprints away from 1 pounce, it will be left with more than half bleed.
DBear's testing shows that pounce does at most (no food or hunger) about 50% bleed
From my testing: if you're full you have 72%, about average would be 30% food and 80% water which leaves you at 65% bleed

So you can run after 1 pounce, but you better hope they don't find you.

[alpine plover]

Carno has bad turn, okay got it, but it needs more stamina for the straight aways.

I catchup with Carnos most times as Utah simply because they run out of stamina .

[nimble sigil]

It has a lot of stamina, but you can’t expect a heavy animal to be able to run forever.

[alpine plover]

It doesn't run forever, pachy's and Utahs can catch it.

[hasty coyote]

giving it more stamina makes it better against pachy and teno, and honestly the pachy matchup is almost perfect atm, I'd rather them not change it and have the power swing from the previous updates

[alpine plover]

Tento's too if you're not careful

They've nerfed carno too much. It's just too many negatives with this thing. I have way more fun on utah. Grows faster, can kill most things in the game, no problem if you die, you'll be back up in no time.

[nimble sigil]

Yes Utahs do grow somewhat fast, but look how many times you die as baby to carnos and other contributing factors. Unless your able to find food already dead and or a chicken you are out of luck

[azure crescent]

carno is supposed to struggle with teno, it's shown struggling against teno IN A PAIR in the concept

[azure crescent]

also @hasty coyote can this be balanced or would it cause issues with the game? i feel that size differences can be an exception ovi's genders as it'd make it more unique, given they're done right

[hasty coyote]

It would make it unique, but its both difficult to balance essentially 2 dinos at once AND make people play both genders.

[azure crescent]

but would it work if it was like the message i replied to?

[hasty coyote]

maybe, but knowing people, most are just going to play the male because it can fight. If you make it too difficult to escape things, then people will cry its unbalanced. Make it too easy, and they're only going to play male. Plus, we have the issues of current nesting. If you give them different colors, then they would have to be clones of the parent of the same gender. Also, people would just decide to die if they got the "bad" gender

In theory it could work. but it may not be the best in practice

[azure crescent]

i see

[half girder]

carno is pretty good where it is

[azure crescent]

i agree

its matchups are as they should be

tenos are easier to take down in groups, as intended

[unborn iris]

The problem is carno actually requires half a brain now. People aren't use to that.

[half girder]

adding a ambush dino first was prob a bad idea but it can still brawl pretty well

tenos were never ever an issue

rem taking down a whole pack as 3 carnos

[hasty coyote]

First, I think utah's pounce needs to be less safe. Like a smaller hitbox and longer stun after miss. Or they can do the "specific pounce locations" method, but that may cause more problems.
after that, then see if carno needs help in the matchup

[half girder]

if anything pachy needs some love the most rn

[unborn iris]

Yeah, as scared as I am to see the devs attempt to modify pounce any more... it IS too easy to land.

[half girder]

utah needs some tweaks

[hasty coyote]

Its fine for the most part, just needs a bit more damage compared to utah. Which I would give to alt or headslam

[half girder]

alt bite dealing 80 dmg or headbutt dealing 120 would be nice

[azure crescent]

120 damage headbutt would be great tbh

[half girder]

headslam is a qol thing tbh

[azure crescent]

4 bodyshots

[half girder]

use it in a fight the utah will get up before u even shake ur head and get a free bite plus a pounce

unless the utah player has the iq of a bird

so nvm the head slam

[unborn iris]

Headslam being the coco smash?

[half girder]

yes

pachy fractures also seem to be broken atm

[unborn iris]

Being able to point blank bonk kind of makes headslam useless anyways.

Broken how?

[half girder]

hitboxes sometimes don’t work, and fracturing is bugged

took me 4 headbutts to fracture a carnos head

[unborn iris]

I've noticed to get leg fractures you can't "impact" headbutt. You have to hit from range.\

[half girder]

which is absurd

[unborn iris]

To fracture a carno head you have to have it body fractured and come from the side.

It is weird, they messed with hitboxes.

[nimble sigil]

I would bare in mind how long that stun is when you take on a teno or a stego missing a pounce against a stego is death because there is no getting out of the way with the delay of movement due to missing.

[half girder]

no my friends tested it

[unborn iris]

I can repeatedly do it. I tested it a good bit too.

[half girder]

pachy v pachy is also aids

[unborn iris]

Yeah.

[half girder]

like wtf did they do

[unborn iris]

They broke parry, which is a big part of it.

[hasty coyote]

personally, I just think it would help in the long term balancing.
Look at teno, it used to be just spam tail slam to win. But they made different moves do different things and its probably the most balanced dino.
If we do the same with pachy, it could help make sure we arent stuck with 1 dino getting screwed. Headbutt deals to little, now utahs bully pachy. headbutt deals enough to stop utahs, now pachy bullies carno,

[azure crescent]

it was so cool before

[unborn iris]

There's no counterplay. Pachy vs pachy is all aggro.

[hasty coyote]

they can also just remove the shake if you hit a dino

[half girder]

idk

cuz they even shake with a norm headbutt

removing that would be dumb looking

maybe carno players can learn to ambush and not cry about it so pachy can get it’s dmg back

[hasty coyote]

they increased the % of damage thats also fracture, which may have broke it

[unborn iris]

I think it has to do with the impact bonk. Like how you can be touching the dino and bonk. Like with the pounce, how they "fixed" it. I think they always count as body hits.

[hasty coyote]

plus, I generally dislike ram dealing high damage, makes the move do everything and helps pachy punch up when it shouldnt. Giving alt/headslam damage makes a hard cap on what it can/cant kill

[half girder]

game isn’t realistic if pachy can brawl certain mid tiers which made pachy fun in the first place along with countering utahs and actually being devestating then idk i don’t see the issue in its old dmg

idk for diversity in a dino when they’ll be many more to play

utah literally uses two buttons

[unborn iris]

I feel like current damage puts pachy on par with utah against carno and teno.

[half girder]

pachy uses 3

carno uses 1

the diversity in attacks is pointless

if you get bored in using an attack then swap dinos

[quick latch]

@alpine plover Definitely need to buff carnos charge to be an ambush predator like it’s meant to be while also being able to fight utahs and other animals with its bite it also needs to get more food from things it kills however the bleed from utahs should be deadly for it but i do see carnos bleed resistance needing a slight buff

[cosmic kestrel]

they should make carno get more food from eating, keep drain and fix magnetic utah pounce for now tbh

upd4 carnos was p bad for everyone

[fresh laurel]

Carno can cover more ground than utah even if both use full stamina

[alpine plover]

Based off what? I've caught up to them every time I push chasing them if I really go for the kill. They're bleeding out like crazy and losing lots of stam regen.

[paper tulip]

I have been naughty 😏

[paper tulip]

That’s what I’m saying Utah as auto lock on pounces as soon as you got bleed your stuck to fight them then Utah can do sharp turns while the carno slides then eventually enough pounce to just bleed out

[fresh laurel]

Im saying if you had them race or something

Carno covers more ground than utah

[half girder]

#balance-feedback message holy copium

legacy utah main mindset

[frail bobcat]

yeah

its needs 1.5 seconds pounce recovery and a animation for head pounces + tailpounces removed (except for base of tail)

[alpine plover]

And pouncing on the head that teleports you to the side.

[fresh laurel]

Utah already does pounce base tail only-

[fresh laurel]

Due to how simple they made it

Pounce really only seems the same as when update 4 pounce would work tbh

[golden coral]

While also being "balanced" for not working half the time, which is part of the issue with utah currently :p

[fresh laurel]

I wonder if someone will time update 4.5 pounce miss to update 5 pounce miss, i want a side by side tbh

[tight cove]

utah is legit fine 💀

[golden coral]

It's not no. It's not balanced for having a functional pounce, which is an issue.

[tight cove]

how so?

[thin mantle]

The fact that pounce requires next to 0 precision alongside being powerful enough to 1-2 shot all but 2 animals in the game is a bit of an issue for such a fast, small, and agile critter with a high stam pool and regen rate on top of it already doing decent damage. Additionally, it’s pounce damage had never been balanced for the success rate pounce currently has

Plus, pounce attack cancels now….

Oh yeah, and missed pounces logistically lack a punishment window as well

Not like that matters since you’d have to be a complete fool to miss a pounce

[golden coral]

The amount of bleed (though it's a bit more of an issue that carno got an unneeded nerf perhaps). The absolutely mindless ease with which the pounce works in general (like deino lunge, though that one is possibly even worse). The rest of the stats that make it very easy to survive in general. The lack of actual mechanical counter that is useful (bucking is rather useless). The fact that there's no danger in using the pounce at all pretty much, neither at mount or dismount, unlike going in for an attack in pretty much all other cases (even pachy ram requires actual contact with the target on the desired part for the desired effect). The growth time in relation to all of this. The absolutely minimal punishment on miss of pounce (not that missing is easy anyway, see earlier point of ease of use for the pounce).

If pounce only worked on the flanks/slots proper, and had punishment for misaiming (similar to the punishment on miss entirely), then bleed would be far more acceptable. If bucking actually meant "get off now or else" and not "let me sit there and deal bleed anyway", then high bleed would be fine because you'd have to properly wear out the target until it can't buck anymore before you can finish it off.

[tight cove]

do you mean everything besides stego and deino? carno teno and even pachy can easily handle a single utah, and you do have enough time to punish a missed pounce.

[twilit juniper]

I am here, once again mentioning to people in here, why is everyone so ok with Utah being a magnet, it teleports I think there’s way too few people talking about this.

[stray venture]

yall fr are goofy for thinking utah does to much bleed

[golden coral]

No, you really do not, unless the utah is dumber than a doorknob.

[golden coral]

It does, in relation to the level of ease of inflicting it.

[thin mantle]

Yes, because they’re several times the size of everything else, so the required amount of pounces is necessarily higher.
And the capacity to handle yourself against a single Utah doesn’t negate any of its balance issues, as current pounce makes that an unreasonable expectation unless the Utah is monumentally terrible.

[golden coral]

The base stats would be fine if it required more than half a braincell to use the pounce and the playable in general :p

[thin mantle]

Oh trust me that’s not off the hook

[tight cove]

so your saying the bleed should be reduced and your saying bucking is worthless? cmon now

[stray venture]

just make pounce more punishable thats it

not this nerf bleed crap\

[thin mantle]

I don’t think you read everything Erik said…

[twilit juniper]

It seems to be Since I’ve noticed there’s way too many people talking about numbers, Aka the bleed damage, and not how a Utah can’t physically miss a pounce if it aims for a standing target. NO MATTER what angle or body part it is.

Just frustrated me is all, that people are more worried about numbers than actual mechanic “bugs”..

[golden coral]

Bucking is useless as a proper counter yes. And I would prefer the pounce be made properly difficult to use, see examples with pounce slots and punishment on misaim and all that (and yes, the punishment on miss needs a bit of an added timer, not much but something more, like pachy miss on headbutt or some such).

[thin mantle]

Yeah, I’d wish more people would be discussing that instead of raw numbers since with it being so mechanically accessible, it can’t really be balanced properly.
Tho in regards to myself, pounce’s magnetism and ease of use is 90% of what I talk about in balance discussion

[golden coral]

See, I'd much prefer that. See my earlier comments. My main point here is that the bleed in relation to ease of use is a bit much. This hasn't been apparent before because well, pounce didn't work, and thus, we never got proper balancing for the utah. Now that pounce does work, it should not be a surprise that it might need a bit of a rebalancing. (though in the case of carno matchup, just revert the carno nerf, it wasn't needed, carnos didn't solo packs of utahs due to bleed, but due to the utahs missing pounces more often than not, which is now fixed, even made better than before with the magnetic pounce).

[twilit juniper]

I’m glad you do, but even these 2 people arguing in here are talking almost about numbers only.
And people in general and balance feedback too

[golden coral]

Since pounce has never really worked well except some few times where things were otherwise not fully developed, we've never had a "balanced" utah because you can't really balance a playable when it's main mechanic just isn't working.

[thin mantle]

Erik brought up magnetism as a problem, just that without a fix for that a statistical balance fix would be needed