balance-feedback-discussion

[analog mirage]

I mean it’s balance ideas

[true needle]

@analog mirage pocket sand is to op and would wreck the game.

[frail bobcat]

The devs said that it will be like that

And why would it wreck the game @true needle

[analog mirage]

All it would do is blind an opponent

[hasty coyote]

gali gameplay:

https://tenor.com/view/king-of-the-hill-dale-gribble-pocket-sand-pocket-sand-gif-3699662

[azure crescent]

I don’t like this idea

Pachy should have normal bleed res, it running already makes it bleed more

Galli i mean

40 is bad, it should atleast be able to fight back against stuff smaller than utah, so around 75 is fine imo

[analog mirage]

Above I think we agreed 60 is fine for the kick. I am just trying to avoid the situation where it starts to go and fight things it shouldn’t

[safe birch]

great

[analog mirage]

Never seen that before

[dusky surge]

@analog mirage i actually disagree with low herrera speed. I'd prefer it to be faster with worse stamina, so if it gets out of a tree, it can quickly sprint back

i'd argue it moving faster than utah. I actually liked legacy's herrera speed

An arboreal animal like itself would want to get back to trees quickly when engaged, but should be disadvantaged when away from the trees, so high speed with low stam does that well

[analog mirage]

I say lower speed because it gives it a more vulnerable state so that it can’t just outrun you and climb a tree.

If it is spotted by a Utah it should just run up the nearest tree possible instead of simply being faster and escaping

Doesn’t have to be slower by much though

But I would prefer it to have some average stamina so that it can at least get around the map easily

[azure crescent]

An animal that has a playstyle revolving around leaving trees and coming back in lightning speed being slower than a utah bugs me

I prefer better speed way worse stamina, so that if you find it in a bad place it has a chance to go back into a tree, but if it is too far from said tree you’ll be able to run it down

[dusky surge]

yea

remember it will have to eventually leave the trees for food and whatnot

in which it will be exposed and will need to return to the trees on a coin drop

[azure crescent]

Yeah, and the few bodies it can carry still slow it down

[dusky surge]

like idc if it has worse stam than carno

i just wanna book it to the moment i see danger

[azure crescent]

At most a herrera should be like 200-400 meters away from trees

So that if it gets caught it’s just running for your life

[dusky surge]

like water and food ain't coming to the canopies

[frail bobcat]

And only 150 health feels a bit weird

[dusky surge]

(although if some higher cliff faces have water source puddles emerge from rain, that'd be sick as fuck)

[azure crescent]

Kinda like how rabbits make it their one and only goal to go back into their burrow the second it gets caught

[dusky surge]

nah that im fine with

[azure crescent]

I wish velada gets that since it seems to have a canyon

[dusky surge]

Herrera is like 175kg

[azure crescent]

And a river in the middle

[frail bobcat]

Velada is the arid map, right?

[azure crescent]

Yes

[stark knoll]

We don't know what it is

It might not be all arid

Don't know where that assumption came from

[dusky surge]

i dont get it either

[azure crescent]

Sure, that’s just what the community calls it

It’s temperate if anything

[dusky surge]

If it's supposed to be a new map to remedy the many issues with spiro, it's going to have jungles

[azure crescent]

It does

[dusky surge]

It may just have an arid area

[azure crescent]

It has jungle trees in the files

[frail bobcat]

Maybe because there are screenshots of an arid biome or something but I could imagine that they just implement it in spiro

[dusky surge]

(i personally think the phase 3 post shows off a velada jungle/structure)

[frail bobcat]

Or do they want to make a new map?

[dusky surge]

I mean, they show off the beipi/new map and all of a sudden word of Velada gets out lmao

And Jace has been said to be working on something very big for a while

[azure crescent]

Hopefully not, i want it to be a new map

[frail bobcat]

Beipi in a new map?

[dusky surge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/855527844670865438/1003403762800525322/lordbeipi.gif

[azure crescent]

A new, actually well designed map will be huge

[frail bobcat]

Looking good

[dusky surge]

honestly a new map may be necessary at this juncture. Spiro has proven a toughie to deal with

[frail bobcat]

Where you can actually play every part of it

[azure crescent]

The cliffs don’t have bushes covering them too

And in the canyon there seems to be a river

[dusky surge]

I expected a new map since update 5 because of the way the nesting grounds were introduced. 2 of them looked good but most were pretty barren, a far cry from Jace's prior works, so I knew his attention was probably elsewhere

[frail bobcat]

Its actually kinda easy to avoid those, they have a unique type of bush around them

[azure crescent]

Indeed, but it’s still stupid

[frail bobcat]

It is

[frail bobcat]

Maybe well get a trailer soon

[azure crescent]

An actually well designed map is desperately needed and i’m glad it’d hopefully coming

It seems to take future mechanics into account too

Like bottom walkers (deep water so they dont venture too far) and vegetation that isnt in every cm of the map

[dusky surge]

I'm not sure if Velada will be the replacement or alternative to Spiro, although with how Spiro is seen, I doubt many people will care if its gone as long as they take some of its more iconic landmarks and slap em in the new spot (human structures and the beautiful coasts)

[azure crescent]

And it has landmarks too

[frail bobcat]

And the cut

[azure crescent]

Honestly i want velada to be built around human structures

[dusky surge]

Same

[azure crescent]

It already has a dam wall iirc

[dusky surge]

Me love human structure

ADD TUNNELS PLEASE

If humans are to come in update 6, I want cool structures to explore

[frail bobcat]

Imagine going into the dark tunnel and then you hear a rex 10 meters infront of you lol

[azure crescent]

If we get the choice to play in velada or spiro i’m going in velada every day

[azure crescent]

i want the canyon to have a tunnel opening

In which only smalls fit in

[frail bobcat]

Imma ask punch about velada when I see him in the chats next time

[frail bobcat]

Or the mountain biome where only smalls can go to

[dusky surge]

idk if they'll acknowledge it as it was leaked iirc but

[frail bobcat]

Where herra and utah rule

[frail bobcat]

How was it leaked?

[azure crescent]

From what i’ve seen in the canyon thing it seems herrera and pteras will thrive there

[azure crescent]

Dondi posted the beipi gif in chat and suddenly people started datamining

[dusky surge]

i believe the name itself was leaked

[azure crescent]

And found it in the files as its own map folder

[frail bobcat]

Datamining?

[azure crescent]

And most recently someone posted the biome assets

[azure crescent]

Looking through the files with an encryption key i think

This usually happens right after updates

[frail bobcat]

Sounds illegal

[azure crescent]

Idk man i’m no hacker i just look at the leaks

[frail bobcat]

And what do the leaks say?

[dusky surge]

velada

[azure crescent]

Nothing they just show the files

most recent one

seems it will have beaches, highlands, grasslands, jungles, forests etc

so more biome variety ig

which is a good thing, more unique spots to explore

Glad jace got the chance to do something great

[frail bobcat]

Ooooooh highlands sound like a cool thing

[azure crescent]

Indeed, jace would make it look amazing

[frail bobcat]

Lets hope the map drops soon

[somber sphinx]

A new map made by Jace, my dream came true

[frail bobcat]

Is jace that good or what?

[somber sphinx]

From what he has made in spiro and some ark maps. Really good

[frail bobcat]

Which ark maps?

[somber sphinx]

I forgot whitch

[frail bobcat]

Ok

[somber sphinx]

But yeah the work he has done on spiro is really good and im really exited to see the map

[azure crescent]

Yes

[somber sphinx]

[mellow zenith]

Hope jace did some good work on the rivers/lake/swamp bed.

[somber sphinx]

Hope so to, the rivers that Jace did looked really good

[analog mirage]

I feel like it’s too early for a new map when spiro isn’t even near completion

[somber sphinx]

Yeah but if they release the new map then I hope Jace gets back to spiro

[analog mirage]

Hopefully

Hopefully the new map can come with 5.5 or 6

[trim rose]

bro same

[analog mirage]

We will probably get access to the rest of the structures that need interiors plus the port

Like the radio tower and southern hanger

Or whatever structure is near south

[azure crescent]

Spiro doesn’t deserve completion

It’s never too early to have an actual good map

[somber sphinx]

^ I hope Jace can redo the whole map instead of just smal places

[wet sleet]

@old blaze The funny part is how the sound actually fits the outcome, but the animation seems to lag behind for some reason.

[old blaze]

I went back and checked the original recording but apparently the video and audio are in desync during the whole recording not the game

[frail bobcat]

Where did you find this

[wet sleet]

Okay, then it's a funny coincidence, because the moment the "hit" sound is played you are actually in the exact spot where the Stego would have hit you.

[frail bobcat]

That shit looks amazing

[somber sphinx]

Dondi posted it on #isle-discussion same with this

[frail bobcat]

So they are actively teasing it now?

[somber sphinx]

Mabye, mabye not. Who knows

[old blaze]

ikr

[wet sleet]

Which makes me think the whole thing could be related to ping. Basically your client not getting the animation in time, while on the server you get in fact hit.

[safe birch]

when are they adding piss and poo to evrima?

[somber sphinx]

[frail bobcat]

That would be a shitty feature

[safe birch]

pteras dropping poop on deinos

[somber sphinx]

[fiery ruin]

@alpine nest for this u r getting a sub

[alpine nest]

thx^^

[wise obsidian]

Both you and the utah played pretty badly ngl

So yeah. Skill. But if the utah had a brain, you would die.

[fiery ruin]

I’ve been a pachy in update 5 and the only problem I’ve had is when I’m on my own and a carno shows up other than that utahs don’t seem much of a threat

[teal sand]

@alpine nest totally agree. i was the utah btw. ur the best pachy player i faced and those tactics usually made me kill pachys easily

but you read me like a book 😅

[alpine nest]

Btw i don‘t play peachy very often I am a Utah main and you just need to learn how to use you‘re bonks then you would win 70-80% of the peachy vs Utah fights

[teal sand]

yeah most pachys i face are spamming the hell out of charge. I didnt do my best there bc i was too robotic and straight foward. i tried to do that but looking at the trees of beach lowered my fps for some reason. i usually have good fps there

but idk why people are saying pachy is fodder

people just need to get better at using pachy

a lot of pachys i fight kill their herdmates more than the carnis they are fighting

[alpine nest]

Yeah and I had a bad ping on the server usually I have a 20ping on eu servers and on my screen I hit you many times but you were sliding away so I guess it was a fair fight

[teal sand]

yeah sometimes when you tp u slide

dont know how that works

[alpine nest]

You just have to jump then it‘s fixed

[teal sand]

I wanna 1v1 you again sometime. u are the only pachy palyer i couldnt beat as utah (:

[alpine nest]

Yes we can do a rematch maybe tomorrow or the next days

[teal sand]

👍

[fresh laurel]

Hot take, balance is the best it has ever been since this update

Update 1 had utahs easily biting teno to death
2 had carnos dominating and stego being fodder
3 had machine gun deino
3.75 was the great nerf of smalls and huge buff of bigs
4... had broken pounce crazy strong pachy
While 5, everything has a chance

Except dryo and hypsi ig

[primal harbor]

@misty knot this isn't ark

[hollow canyon]

@rapid bison if there's 2 or 3 Utahs - the Pachy will die

...and there's nothing wrong with that

well technically it can actually defend itself if it plays smart and Utahs aren't too good

but yea if there are some 2-3 good Utahs it will die and that's perfectly ok

idk what makes people think that they should be able of beating multiple carnivores at once with a herbivore roughly of the same size and with a similar growth time

[half girder]

losing to a pachy is close to impossible now

get knocked down and get up with an insta pounce

buck + 3 bites kills pachy if it doesn’t keep still

and baiting headbutts will increase bleed drain

[rapid bison]

that doesnt make the fact that a single 1 second pounce can make a pachy's bleed go down to less than 70 even if the pachy just crouches and sits waiting for the utah to come in for the pachy to make a move fine

[hollow canyon]

Not disagreeing with that

Utah is overtuned

[half girder]

getting leg on utahs rn is very funky but idk, if headshots register as body ig that’s a skill issue 🤷‍♂️

[hollow canyon]

it's absurd how good it is vs Pachy and well... pretty much everything really

there's a lot of coping coming from the Utah mains but yea - the reality is that their favourite playable is broken good right now

it just needs some nerfs, it's really not rocket science

[rapid bison]

one time i headbutted a utah on its butt and it got a head fracture

[half girder]

lol exactly

[hollow canyon]

really it should've been obvious to anyone who's been paying attention to the balance changes that Utah was bound to end up being overpowered as soon as they fixed the pounce

[half girder]

that’s what i said, fix pounce then balance

[hollow canyon]

the amount of buffs it received over the last 10 months when the problem was simply that its main ability wasn't working

yea - fix the pounce then balance it

don't try to freaking buff it left, right and centre and then fix the pounce

[half girder]

and since it’s as good as it is, there’s mega packs of em

[hollow canyon]

Yea no surprise, there's more than one reason for that though

[half girder]

ran into a 10+ pack one time

[hollow canyon]

Utah is just really, really easy to grow

[half girder]

hang on lemme get the vid

[rapid bison]

and theres also only 2 land carnis in the game rn

[half girder]

https://youtu.be/BXe7TRpXkkQ

[harsh lark]

Utah is high risk/high reward. Only change needed is stopping the bullshit where utahs pounce through attacks and tank it for a free pounce.

[hollow canyon]

yea and for the past year or so one of them is concistently just better

[hollow canyon]

yea no, Utah isn't high risk

and there's more that needs to be changed about it

[half girder]

it isn’t lol

[hollow canyon]

than just "pouncing through attacks"

[half girder]

that recovery time ain’t no risk

[hollow canyon]

that, coupled with the fact that juvie Utah is a disgusting abomination that is absurdly difficult to deal with because of how stamina pools growth curves work

[whole gust]

Only nerf it could need is its bleed. Bleed is a powerful weapon, especially since it's paired with the utah's speed and agility. I don't want utah to be weak but if it can take down a pachy (something that has to get up close and personal constantly and deal raw damage) with such little effort, that's a big issue.

[hollow canyon]

just how much stamina bucking actually takes up

I'd just tone down the bleed to 2 down from 3

[harsh lark]

It’s the only 1 hr Dino that can get oneshot by virtually any other big Dino. I know you wanna spin it another way but the reality is that pounce is fixed so utahs are an actual fight you have to consider carefully now

[whole gust]

They fixed it a little too well XD

[half girder]

what

[hollow canyon]

wdym "can get oneshot by virtually any other big dino"?

[half girder]

bro pachy 5 shots utah

carno 3

[hollow canyon]

nah, the fix is ok

the issue is all the buffs it received prior to it

[whole gust]

I'm talking about a utah pouncing your head/tail and teleporting to your side

[hollow canyon]

that's almost always been a thing

[whole gust]

yeah it has. But I'm glad people are talking about it more

[hollow canyon]

I think the only time that didn't work like that was on update 1

gods know why it got changed to the way it is now

[harsh lark]

Every big Dino can potentially oneshot Utah. Carno/teno can stun>combo it, pachy can leg fracture and stego is self explanatory. Definition of high risk is throwing your 1 hr Utah at these Dino’s

I don’t really see how you can downplay it as anything but high risk

[half girder]

leg fracture tends to be broken

[wise obsidian]

Pachy is far from being able to one shot utah

[half girder]

doesn’t really work at times

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto - fair it can oneshot it if you get close enough, Carno can't charge you unless you're standing away from it and giving it the space to charge you + you have to just outright fall asleep in front of your computer, Pachy can leg fracture Utah... just like it can leg fracture most other things, I don't see what your point is.

[harsh lark]

Pachy has potential to effectively oneshot Utah. You get one leg fracture and the Utah is a dead man walking

[half girder]

not really

[rapid bison]

i can just pounce straight into a pachy, then jump off when i have half stamina and get a tail hit at worst. that's not much risk

[hollow canyon]

Not really + Pachy just explodes if it gets hit with a pounce

This idea that Utah is a high/risk high reward dino is just laughable, every dino is going to be "high risk high reward" if it goes after things 4 times its size

[harsh lark]

My point is these Dino’s can still effectively oneshot Utah. No point trying to argue specifics. If Utah plays badly it dies, hence why pounce is rewarding

[hollow canyon]

try going after a Stego as a Tenonto and Carno and tell me is that high risk high reward for you?

[half girder]

that’s a bad take tbh

[hollow canyon]

Yes, if it plays badly it dies which is only the case for Utah obviously

pounce is one of the easiest special abilities to land in the game

[half girder]

the recovery time saves bad utahs

[hollow canyon]

idk make it so that Utah has to run for a second straight ahead without turning before it can use the pounce and we can talk about it being "high risk" as it is it's only high risk because you're going after animals many times your size which can - in some instances - oneshot you

[harsh lark]

That’s fair but that’s the only real issue, which I mentioned earlier with the “front pouncing bullshit”. But there’s no point in being surprised that the pounce hurts or that bucking has a stam cost and isn’t a “fix all Utah related problems” button

[hollow canyon]

What in the world gave you an impression that I'm surprised? I said this dino would have to get nerfed after pounce gets fixed months before update 5 was released.

It being in a dire need of a nerf is only surprising to idk people who haven't been paying attention to development or Utahmains who are still trying to justify that it's balanced right now.

newsflash: it isn't

it's absurdly easy to grow, has a ridiculously easy maintenance, little downsides and can go after pretty much every animal in the game with a decent degree of success

[half girder]

utah pop is through the roof this patch

like old carno

[hollow canyon]

increased hunger time says high

[whole gust]

I saw a megapack of like 20-30 utahs on official yesterday XD it was terrible

[hollow canyon]

that was a good change back when... what was it? Update 4 was releasing I think?

[half girder]

that’s just a common site as this point

[hollow canyon]

We really needed Utah to be able to go on without eating for longer

that was totally the change this dinosaur needed right at that time

[half girder]

the devs don’t think about things sometimes

[hollow canyon]

No, they just wanted to patch the old raptor up for the time being to make it more bearable while its main mechanic was broken

probably also why bucking got ran into the ground over the last year

[harsh lark]

Megapacking isn’t a Utah issue and cutting hunger barely helps stop it. I still see carno megapacks even though they had their hunter gutted. When you make food tight the ones who get to eat first are the guys with a literal army to push their weight around with. It fucks up solo/small groups more if anything.

[hollow canyon]

gaze upon "balance"

the very definition of it

with that stamina cost I honestly don't know whether a Stego should even be bucking if it gets pounced

literally does more harm than good

[rapid bison]

quick unrelated thing here

are people just not able to record stuff at lower qualities

[hollow canyon]

idk, not my video

I don't play Stego

[rapid bison]

every video i see even the short ones take so long to load

[hollow canyon]

let me see one of my own

[rapid bison]

yeah lets make people's main thing they can rely on to counter utah bleed drain huge amounts of stamina which is also one of the main things that bleed affects

[hollow canyon]

that + make it so that you can't fluidly go from bucking to attacking because oh no, a Utah might just get hit otherwise

bucking is literally a free "you can get off safely now" transparent for Utah

it literally tells you when to jump off

because they can't attack anymore - another change requested by the Utah crowd that we got during the last year or so

[harsh lark]

Why post a video of a stego fighting utahs in an open field and complain about it? Bucking is a damage control mechanic. It’s not there to instantly erase a pounce. Plus the dismount change is there because landing a pounce shouldn’t mean getting killed because the other Dino knows how to attack spam in your general direction

It feels like you guys are basing your idea of how effective pounce should be based on how easy it is to land, which is the opposite of what you should want

[rapid bison]

me when i use a damage control mechanic but all it does is worsen things for me because i lose 80% of my stamina

👍

[harsh lark]

Make pounce harder to land so the rewards for landing are actually justified instead of turning a Dinos main weapon into mosquito bites

[mental roost]

Unrelated to the Utah topic discussion above but I've been tossing this idea around in my head since last night(early morning) and I just want to hear some thoughts on it before I actually post it.

The idea is pretty much to add a special attribute to Tyrannosaurus Rex's bite where upon hitting a critical weakpoint(any hitzone with a value of 1.5 or higher(or 1.2, I forgot the exact headshot damage multiplier currently used in Evrima), it does higher damage than usual with a unique modifier attached. The bite damage alone is still high, however this is primarily to reward Tyrannosaurus further for going for weakpoints and still giving it its infamous bite while also adding another con to it, so it can't just bite things in the ass repeatedly till they die.

The idea partially stems from DRG's system where some weapons(M1000 or the Bulldog pistol) while still able to do headshots, can have their critical damage multiplier by raised higher(I don't know the exact equation for it unfortunately) via upgrades(base damage, hitzone value + crit bonus upgrade)

This ability wouldn't be accessible to juvenile or early subadult Rex's as it'd only really kick in once the animal is sufficiently bulky enough to where it'll be needing to more frequently prey on larger game.

Example(note these numbers aren't actually what I'm suggested): base bite damage is around 650-700 as an adult Rex. Sounds low for the Tyrant lizard king right? Well only if you only bite anything but the critical spots. Taking that 650-700 damage, and adding the critical weakpoint modifier onto it and the additional crit bonus of the bite will add up for superior damage output. So for Stego it'd be 650 x 2(headshot) = 1300 damage, now add the modifier of 1.5 and you'll be doing 1950 damage on a headshot, rewarding the Rex for aiming for critical weakpoints further than most, while also keeping it off the path of: just do big numbers to any part of the body.

[rapid bison]

stego still is very easy to land on it's sides

[mental roost]

Sorry if any of the wording is off by the way, I'll refine it if I notice anything or someone points it out👍
If I can make it any clearer, just let me know and I'll do the best I can.

[hollow canyon]

I don't think you're even understanding what the point of that video is

that video was meant to show how atrocious bucking is

This isn't some "fight" that actually happened as far as I know, that was just meant to show how much stamina bucking drains from the person who uses it

[hollow canyon]

yea, let's make it so that a Utah has to run in a straight line for a second before it can even use the pounce or make it so that it has to stop and charge it for a second before it gets to use it, that will do wonders for the game

[harsh lark]

If it was testing it was pretty poor. Why do they have multiple utahs pouncing on at random instead of just having one pounce at a time? It’s not a controlled setting at all.

[harsh lark]

But anyways yeah, more attacks in general should have charge ups

[fresh laurel]

Doesnt that only work on carno since other attacks one shot or stun

[fresh laurel]

Utah only buffs were in this update-

[fresh laurel]

Used to be one utah at a time but was changed since it didnt look cool and uh probably wouldnt help utah do its whole big game hunter thing in packs well

[hollow canyon]

that's absolutely and completely not true

[fresh laurel]

What were the other buffs

[hollow canyon]

no, it works with multiple other attacks, every bite, teno's claw

[hollow canyon]

goddamn that will be quite a list

1. the stamina cost on bucking
2. the food drain
3. the bleed increase
4. the growth time decrease

[fresh laurel]

Anything with no cc that also cant one shot

[fresh laurel]

When you said buffs i was assuming more combat affective stuff

[hollow canyon]

5. making it so that there's a long brear before a bucking animal can attack the Utah

no, I said Utah buffs

[fresh laurel]

Also pretty sure bucking drains utah the same or more this update

[hollow canyon]

wdym "same or more"

this wasn't even a thing earlier on, it's something that was added during the last year or so

before that bucking didn't have a stamina cost

[fresh laurel]

You said last 10 months

[hollow canyon]

Utah got showered with buffs

[half girder]

utah just needs its recovery time increased

[hollow canyon]

it will be slightly more than 10 months

[hasty coyote]

that and/or a pounce cooldown, so you can just immediately pounce after missing

[fresh laurel]

Eh not a fan of cooldowns

[hollow canyon]

pounce cooldown is a worthless nerf

[hasty coyote]

similarly to how pachy has a cooldown on a ram

[hollow canyon]

it would have 0 effect on balance

[half girder]

i think maybe they should not be able to pounce once they get up from a knockdown

[fresh laurel]

You cant really do that

Can you?...

[half girder]

yes lol

[fresh laurel]

Ima test that

Normally i run after getting up

[half girder]

i got a free pounce on a pachy

its so easy to kill pachy

even with body

[hasty coyote]

you can make them miss or get knocked down and immediately get pounced once they're up. it adds more time for vulnerability as they have to back away and try again

[half girder]

leg its very possible

[fresh laurel]

Could just make it easier to punish them for missing

[hollow canyon]

why would a Utah care to pounce something right after missing? I don't understand, your opponent would have to stand right in front of you for that to matter

otherwise you have to get up and set up the next pounce anyways

[fresh laurel]

Find it hard to see a pachy or something standing in a way for utah to do that tbh

[hollow canyon]

Cooldown just doesn't matter for attacks like pounce and charge

it would matter for e.g. stego jab, teno's tail or even Deino's lunge

but not for Utah or Carno

it would also matter for Pachy's ram

[fresh laurel]

Also would feel cheesy to die because you were on cooldown and didnt know...

[hollow canyon]

but these two specifically don't care whether they get a cooldown

[half girder]

pachys are somewhat of a rare sight now

its crazy

[hollow canyon]

I've been seeing them on and off

[fresh laurel]

Because carnivore kos is fun

[hollow canyon]

the most common animals I see are Utahs, Stegos and Deinos

[half girder]

mhm

[fresh laurel]

I see more carnos

[half girder]

teno sometimes

[fresh laurel]

Smh

[half girder]

uhhh what server

[hasty coyote]

its mostly because people who enjoy pachy are also playing utah, which is much more commonly played and basically the same size but a carni

[fresh laurel]

Na1

[half girder]

i was on there last night as carno lol

[fresh laurel]

Couldnt it also be people want to enjoy utah for a bit because it actually works?

[half girder]

easier to play too

[fresh laurel]

How so

[half girder]

ig

[fresh laurel]

Besides growth

[half girder]

play the damn dino man

i dont have to explain lol

[fresh laurel]

I did

[hasty coyote]

I'd say they're roughly the same for the most part. You just need to learn different skills.

[fresh laurel]

🗿

Pachy solo is fun imo still

[half girder]

💀

[hasty coyote]

Utah is landing pounce and dodging
Pachy is ramming and knowing when to fight or flight

[half girder]

pachy sometimes doesnt work properly

[hasty coyote]

its what I am forced to do most the time, I still enjoy it, but finding a group is soo much better

[half girder]

utah works

[fresh laurel]

Tbf grouping is meta

[half girder]

map feels dead as of late too

[fresh laurel]

True

[hasty coyote]

I actually have only seen issues when theres a hill, otherwise it has been good for me except that it like to prio rib breaks

[half girder]

headshots being body, body being head, headshots not giving fracture, leg being body

its all over the place

[fresh laurel]

Leg and body are the most random from my gameplay

[half girder]

had to headbutt a carno 4 time to the head for a fracture lmao

[fresh laurel]

Probably because carno head hurtbox

[hasty coyote]

havent seen body be head yet, but the rest I have seen. It still works if they are not moving much, but speed screws it up apparently

[hasty coyote]

I have had the same thing with utahs, ram them head-on but get a body.

[fresh laurel]

Pachy is break and run gameplay so besides utah... whats the issue

[half girder]

its supposed to counter utah

[fresh laurel]

Ik

[half girder]

not run..

cant really do that anymore

[fresh laurel]

One utah can get malded on pretty sure

[half girder]

not in my exp

[hasty coyote]

the fact that it has the disadvantage against utah is my main issue. Its still a winnable fight, but its more 60:40 in utah's favor instead of pachy.

[fresh laurel]

Pachy issue is bleed

[hasty coyote]

no, its the lack of damage, bleed is fine if pachy can do the same in return

[fresh laurel]

You could give it slight resist idk

[half girder]

im fine with bleed if pachy actually did its job better

[fresh laurel]

Buff alt attack

Hear it does less than utah bite

But ig the stun is a factor

[hasty coyote]

that is one viable option, and yeah it does 60, utah does 65

[fresh laurel]

Maybe 75n?

Pachy can get a good amount of alt hits with knockdown

[hasty coyote]

personally I like the idea of making head-slam a "finisher" of sorts

[fresh laurel]

Is that tap ram?

[half girder]

i dont like that, would be kool tho

[hasty coyote]

you generally get like 3

and it takes 8 to kill a utah

[half girder]

the utah can get a bite and pounce in that time

[fresh laurel]

Buff the dmg to 75n and see how pachy vs utah goes ig?

[hasty coyote]

the one you use to open coconuts, the down slam

[fresh laurel]

Also lord nerf baby utah buck resist

Aint no way it lasts longer than adults

[hasty coyote]

and drains the same amount of stam

[half girder]

look at carno too lol

[fresh laurel]

Doesnt

[rapid bison]

wow that is ridiculous

[fresh laurel]

I was being bucked and lasted a one time

[half girder]

charge after taking one step

2 steps at sub

[hasty coyote]

i mean the one bucking still costs normal bucking stam

[fresh laurel]

Carno ram at baby needs a stamina cost increase imo

[half girder]

weight stuff is aids

[half girder]

prefer more dmg on its headbutt, that will just lead to spam

[fresh laurel]

Ooh yea pls nerf baby utah buck resist or make bucking take less stam on a victim thats bucking baby utah

Also imo baby utah needs more ways to avoid adults

[half girder]

ehhh

[fresh laurel]

Doesnt help how pachy or teno can out run you at some point in life

[half girder]

i find it pretty easy lol

out ran a carno for 2 mins

[fresh laurel]

Most carnos are dumb

[half girder]

i pounce him and everything

[fresh laurel]

An adult carno had trouble killing me as a fresh utah

[half girder]

shit was fun

[fresh laurel]

Anyways

[half girder]

i mean the hitbox is harder now so

[fresh laurel]

The fact that pachy and teno can out run you at some point is ehhh

[hasty coyote]

I still need someone to help me test for exact numbers for bleed but:

1 pounce does about 1/3 (if you dont move much) to 1/2(if you move a decent amount) of a pachy's bleed, and 8 bites kill a pachy.
1 ram does less than 1/4th of utah's hp, and 8 alt attacks to kill a utah.

[fresh laurel]

Or if an adult utah wants you dead then you will normally die

[half girder]

i think its fine

[fresh laurel]

Its not

Really not

[half girder]

baby utahs have such an impact in combat

having them pounce then out run is meh

[fresh laurel]

You are wording it like baby utah doesnt have its bs

Also thats more situational imo

If a adult pack abuses a juvie

But im talking when a juvie needs to get away

[half girder]

i mean yeah ig

but idk, would be annoying to deal with

unless they nerf what babys could do

[hasty coyote]

give juvie utah the pachy treatment: it goes faster than the adults at a point.
then also make bucking drain more stamina based on the utah's age

[half girder]

yes

[hasty coyote]

that way it doesnt contribute to combat as much, but has the ability to escape from adults

[fresh laurel]

Thats what i was trying to say 🗿

[gusty sonnet]

I have nowhere else to put this but it needs to be said. HACKERS ON A DINO GAME ARE SCUM. I cannot believe it even happens. How do you just run right up on me and do a full pounce in the absolute middle of nowhere. No water, no food around, they just knew exactly where I was. Then I got tbagged etc. This community is just way toxic for a dino game. Please for the love of god add a report button or something this is ridiculous. Or like many say the devs are just breeding toxicity and dont care.

[stark knoll]

If you're on an official server, ping the server admin role in the relevant server channel when you believe you've found a hacker. More information is pinned in the server channels

[dusky surge]

@idle delta
1: Pachy already takes reduced damage to the head, taking .75x the damage as opposed to the standard 1.5x damage multiplier
2: Pachy already bleeds out faster while running, as do all creatures. It also has a unique advantage where its buck is far more effective than other animals
3: Last I checked, the alt-bite did 100 damage and hasn't seemed to be changed in any patch notes so

[idle delta]

Oop I must have gotten a lot of misinformation ;-;

[half girder]

#balance-feedback message preach

[idle delta]

We shouldnt need 8 alt attacks to kill a utah as pachy ;-;

[silk harness]

Tbf you only really need to land 3 since you can get at least 1-2 more while its on the ground

Problem is pachies usually gamble on a legbreak ram while the utah is down which really cuts their damage output compared to spamming alt attack

[keen plover]

Cause if you don't attempt the leg break - they just keep on coming back

Every fight I've been in - when I get the body frac - the utah keeps fighting

Body fractures needs to be more debilitating at least if you don't want pachy to be too strong

[silk harness]

I agree that you should gamble for the legbreak if you're outnumbered, but in 1v1 or even 1v2 you should just spam alt attack on their head

[wheat ridge]

the game needs more nuanced nerfs instead of those huge nerf hammers they swing, the patchy nerfs were way over the top, the same happened with teno until it was buffed again, idk why but its always herbis getting over nerfed

[frail bobcat]

I honestly dont know why they removed this

[frail bobcat]

Carno lol

[wheat ridge]

carno is still pretty good, his hunger drain ineeds to be reverted tho

his fighting capabilities are not nerfed

[dusky surge]

it never got nerfed and idk why people think this

the hunger drain is the exact same as U4/4.5/4.75

[wheat ridge]

still a little bit exessive, even more with the little food value most dinos ans AI have

[hollow canyon]

Can anyone remind me why the knockdown time was decreased?

I honestly forgot what the reasoning behind that was

[keen plover]

Specifically for the utah v pachy matchup. Utah was 'getting destroyed'. Although knockdown timers are universal...

[hollow canyon]

Is that really it? Has anyone confirmed that's why they changed it? Because honestly that's probably one of the worst balancing changes in quite a while.

[keen plover]

Was told this in the ST. I think it was the main factor for the change.

Although no official dev comment, like with most balance changes

I wish we knew the thought process behind these changes but whatever

I don't have any official sources, unless I ping a QA member I guess lol.

[hollow canyon]

Nah, that's fine, that's good enough for me

I think that's literally the main thing that has to be changed back right now

it's kind of stupid just how quickly dinos get back up right now

tbh the knock down duration should depend on what's hitting you but if it's universal then it should be just increased for now

[keen plover]

I thought it was fine previously. I don't recall anyone complaining about how long they were on the floor

The one complaint I did see was how long utahs were punished for missing a pounce

[keen plover]

Yeah, at the very least, we need different timers depending on attack then

A pachy knocking you over and a carno knocking you over as a utah keeps you on the floor for the same amount of time...

We're missing a lot of nuance in these attacks. Not every attack should be treated the same. However, most of these are kept on the back burner (like fracture severity, bleed value for bites??)

[hollow canyon]

Yes that's what I mean but assuming they cannot do it(or cannot do it for now perhaps) then the duration of the knockdowns should be increased all across the board.

[ocean sentinel]

Does anyone else think deino's in a weird spot. If one lunges you it's pretty much guaranteed death (unless that drop bug happens), but at the same time you can pretty easily avoid them by just only crossing and drinking away from hotspots.

In my opinion, dinosaurs should be able to fight back against deinos to some extent, but they should also have to come across them more often. I think this would make the game more interesting overall. Less people complaining about deinos, yet more hunting opportunities for deinos, yet a bit more challenge for them as well.

[hollow canyon]

Yes, it's been in a weird spot ever since its release.

Its design is just kind of anti-fun.

[ocean sentinel]

Honestly it needs a bit of an overhaul.

I have a few ideas on how to make deino a more interesting part of the Isle, and sure they might not be the best but it will at least start a conversation.

Ideas for allowing dinos to fight back against deinos:

Allow alt-LMB attacks while grabbed. The idea behind this is simple, by allowing the victim to damage the deino and inflict some bleed, they might be able to scare off the deino, though if the deino knows what they are doing then this alone probably won't save anyone, so it is best combined with other ideas. Since alt-LMB attacks use stamina, it will also reward players better manage their stamina.

Doing above a certain damage threshold will break the deinos grab. This could synergize with first idea, as well as encouraging grouping up more, as your group mates could get a few hits in before the deino gets away assuming they were close to you, which when combined with the alt-LMB attacking could save your life. When the grab is broken, the deino could perhaps be stunned for a second or so, but for short enough time that as long as they dragged far enough from land they could get another chance. This would at least slightly increase deinos depth, as instead of just grabbing someone and submerging to drown them, you'd have to try to quickly rush them to an area where getting out of the water will take longer, so if you drop them it's not over yet.

Another thing that could be done is having deino's stamina drain when holding a dinosaur, the amount depending on the size of the grabbed dinosaur compared to the deino. A full stamina deino would have enough to drown any grabbable dino in the roster currently, but would punish deinos who suck at stamina management, again adding a little more depth to it's gameplay, while also slightly increasing the prey's chance of escape.

Ideas for increasing the rate of dinosaur-deino encounters:

Make the rivers larger. Not much to explain here, the longer dinosaurs have to spend crossing, the more likely a deino is going to pass by and attempt to hunt them.

Reduce the number of places crossing can be achieved. I noticed there are a few areas where cliffs or rocks get in the way of crossing, having more areas with one side of the river blocked off would make migrating dinosaurs more predictable for deinos.

Tell me what you think of them. Do you think this would improve gameplay if all these ideas were combined?

[half girder]

yeah, the ST was... something else, no comms just play, very curious on who voted for some of the things this patch

[keen plover]

bro same. Some of the changes were uh

[half girder]

its almost like skilled players didnt matter

[dusky surge]

i honestly think most of the changes were decnt

and the current balance is better than the prior patch by a long shot

[half girder]

sometimes i wish i were in 4.5

this is both the best and worst patch imo

[keen plover]

Teno is perfect. Deino got better. Dryo got better.

Only carno, utah and pachy need changes imo

[half girder]

yes

[keen plover]

I'd honestly just buff carno in some way + pachy

If utah is still too good, then you can nerf it in some way.

[half girder]

carno seems fine tbh, utah just needs tweaks and pachy slight buffs

[dusky surge]

I still see very little need for a specialised bleed weakness

Since it already relies heavily on movement (thus making it weaker to bleed)

[half girder]

the knock down recovery is just absurd

that can be tweaked too

pachy should be a glass cannon of sort

rn its like im pillow fighting with it

[ocean sentinel]

Teno is pretty good, I can agree with that. Though while deino did get better, it's still pretty dubious. It feels like this underwater boogie man that you are defenseless against but you can easily just go around.

[half girder]

bleed is fine if it gets more dmg, but if this balance stays pachy does need slight bleed res

but idk, if anything id give that to teno

[keen plover]

Teno doesn't need it tbf

then it would be way too good

[hollow canyon]

very decent ideas tbh

[azure crescent]

indeed, but i’d just prefer a tug of war type of lunge that applies to all sizes above 500 kg honestly. More interactive, more of a stamina battle, still allows the prey to escape if they get caught, although not very likely

the way the sizes would work is just below 4T= the deino has advantage by default and above 4T= the deino has to put in way more effort to make the kill

and if the dino is like a trike, the deino either has to get around the armor, or grab the animal BY the armor and in turn take a lot of damage

[ocean sentinel]

Personally, I think just having it be a stamina battle would be a bit 1-dimensional.

Though still better than what we have now.

[azure crescent]

1 dinensional? Both parties can move in all directions and potentially fight back (ex:a deino grabs a sucho’s arm; the sucho can still bite the deino)

[ocean sentinel]

You never mentioned that. It sounded like it was just a test to see who's stamina bar was more filled.

[azure crescent]

that is true, my bad

[twin oar]

Can anyone give me 1 reason why adult Utahs being able to pin each other down with pounce is a good idea?

You could just be chillin' & some random cannibal toxic Utah comes up & pounces you, with nothing you can do other than watch yourself die. How is that good?

& how making it so you don't get pinned, so if you're gonna fight each other its not just a game of who can land the pounce 1st is the winner, which may include some skills.

[azure crescent]

trust nobody

[gusty sonnet]

kill everybody

[knotty geyser]

@arctic summit a longer ramp up to carnos charge would mean having to put more distance between you and your target making it easier to get spotted and increases the likelihood of your charge being dodged. This would make Carno less of an ambush predator imo. I think charge ramp up is in a good spot in it’s current state.

[analog mirage]

Finally someone with a brain

Who thought to make the runner dinosaur suffer when it does the one thing it’s supposed to do.

It already can’t run long, it can’t brawl, the blood loss nerf was just unneeded in my eyes

[hasty coyote]

because it is unnecessary, carno could already die to 2 pounces if it decided to keep running.

[analog mirage]

Yeah it was just poor ideas topped on the fact that Utah actually works now

[hollow canyon]

just for the record - Carno doesn't suffer more bleed while running

it suffers more bleed while doing literally anything else

but still keels over from running really badly just like everything else so

overall - yea, it's just weaker to bleed

and yea Carno's been nerfed into the ground on top of everything else getting stronger

[fresh laurel]

small game hunter
Teno is doable still
single utahs are an option
single pachy too
dryo and hypsi
I dunno it still can hunt

[hollow canyon]

It's not about it being able to hunt or not

Utah could still hunt when its pounce was broken, didn't mean the creature was ok

[fresh laurel]

you said nerfed to the ground which I dont think is true

[fresh laurel]

Utah could barely hunt it with broken pounce lol

[hollow canyon]

It could hunt and so can Carno now

[fresh laurel]

Utah could barely do its job due to pounce just making you stuck in place or send you to the shadow realm

[hollow canyon]

Single Pachy is definitely an option, single Utah - much less unless that Utah is bad

[fresh laurel]

I dont think carno is nerfed to the ground

[fresh laurel]

Carno folds solo Utahs

[hollow canyon]

it doesn't even touch it for the most part

I've been around Carnos many times since the update released as a solo Utah

I am yet to die to a single Carno

[fresh laurel]

most carnos I meet dont even know how to buck lmao

I say its skill issue on the carno end if they lose to a lone utah

[hollow canyon]

it's not

and I didn't say they lose, they don't

well they can but it's unlikely

it's more so that a single Carno is not really a threat to a Utah that has enough brain mass left to know better than to run in a straight line

[fresh laurel]

that goes for anything but deino tbh

[hollow canyon]

Deino can die to Utahs too

I've seen it happen before

massive skill issue involved but that's irrelevant

[fresh laurel]

think the reason why utah doesnt fear carno the most is because
carno can be pretty easy to avoid long enough to reach a rock or forest

[hollow canyon]

well yea it just turns like trash and has little stamina

it's not really a threat unless there's multiple Carnos or you're trying to fight it

[fresh laurel]

turning like trash is fine imo

[hollow canyon]

it would be if it wasn't for other things

[fresh laurel]

would be unbalanced for it to be turning like teno or utah while being faster than them

[hollow canyon]

oh it definitely shouldn't turn that fast

[fresh laurel]

plus you gotta account for other mid tiers

[hollow canyon]

what other mid tiers?

[fresh laurel]

allo and stuff if they ever come

[hollow canyon]

I don't see what they have to do with Carno's turning

[fresh laurel]

carno turning for the most part should be bad for its size tbh

You could make carno accel faster though

would catch more smalls off guard

and make vs utah pack a bit easier

[hollow canyon]

I think Carno's turning would be alright if it wasn't for other issues

it really wouldn't have much of an effect in a fight vs a Utah pack

[fresh laurel]

it would

[hollow canyon]

they'd have a bit less time to react to a charge but

[fresh laurel]

short burst run

[hollow canyon]

Carno already accelerates decently fast

[fresh laurel]

to get a good bite or something

[fresh laurel]

cant think of anything else to make carno be scary to smalls besides that tbh

[hollow canyon]

turn rate

[fresh laurel]

unless.... jumping carno

[hollow canyon]

literally just turn rate

[fresh laurel]

how much ;-;

[hollow canyon]

jumping wouldn't be helpful unless you gave it a jump that would let it climb rocks which would be bad

back to update 2 imo

[fresh laurel]

that was a joke-

[hollow canyon]

keep its bad bleed res, keep the low stamina

[fresh laurel]

also update never had jumping carno

[hollow canyon]

and get the turn rate back to what it used to be

no, I'm saying

turn rate back to update 2 levels

Carno obviously never jumped and it shouldn't it's way too big for that

[fresh laurel]

That was broken turning

[fresh laurel]

was a joke ;-;

[hollow canyon]

it wasn't a Utah could escape it for some time relatively well

[fresh laurel]

keep in mind back then utah turned better than now

and had more hp :P

[hollow canyon]

hp was irrelevant

[fresh laurel]

wasnt

[hollow canyon]

Carno had twice higher biteforce

[fresh laurel]

utah could survive deino bite force on release lol

[hollow canyon]

it put Utah down with 3 bites just like it does now

Yea and Carno had a biteforce not far behind Deino's at the time

[fresh laurel]

utah had over twice its current hp

[hollow canyon]

yea but it still resulted in it getting three-tapped

hits to kill haven't changed

[fresh laurel]

but utah was still hella borked if it wasnt anywhere near a rock due to how quick carno could turn

[analog mirage]

I know

[fresh laurel]

also made it easy for carno to cheese other playables

[hollow canyon]

not really? I mean it cheesed Stego but that was because of how bad Stego was at the time

Utah was just fine at the time, it was actually pretty absurdly broken itself

[fresh laurel]

it was mostly due to carno biting stego tail tip

[hollow canyon]

the goddamn videos of Utahs taking down a Stego in less than a minute

I think it was around 40 seconds if not less

[fresh laurel]

stego was fodder at the time too

[hollow canyon]

Note that Carno also had an absurdly disgusting stamina pool at the time, it currently runs a fraction of what it did back then

[fresh laurel]

good

[hollow canyon]

it also still turned much worse than the current Utah

[fresh laurel]

find it hard to imagine carno running that long again

[hollow canyon]

I mean that would be awful

[fresh laurel]

really didnt

not much worse

slightly worse but still would be horrible for pachy too

[hollow canyon]

it did, I've watched a video of Carno on update 2 a few days ago its turn rate was still meh

[fresh laurel]

teno dealing with that carno again would be sad

[hollow canyon]

not at all

Teno deals with Carno just fine if not outright too well

[fresh laurel]

I could see carno turning fast enough to avoid a slam while hitting the tail

[fresh laurel]

I wouldnt say too well since teno cant run away

at all...

[hollow canyon]

so what?

It can currently take on multiple Carnos at once

I've seen Tenos taking on 2 or even 3 Carnos at once

[fresh laurel]

I've seen 2 carnos clap teno

[hollow canyon]

that's what should be happening

[fresh laurel]

At this point its hard to pin things on skill issue or actual balance

[analog mirage]

The worse bleeding while walking/standing almost encourages you to run more which is bad for bleed anyways. So either way you die to bleed

[fresh laurel]

though I do feel teno kick does too much bleed...

[hollow canyon]

2 Utahs should be clapping a Pachy, 2 Carnos should be clapping a Teno, 2 Deinos should be clapping a Stego

it's really that simple, it doesn't matter that those animals are slower or whatever

if they are outnumbered 2 to 1 they should be dying

[fresh laurel]

anyone have current pachy alt attack dmg confirmed?

keep hearing its 60n only

[analog mirage]

The kick should do fracture damage instead of bleed (once we have scaled fractures) and the claw attack should be used for bleed

[hollow canyon]

Kick shouldn't apply any bleed

[fresh laurel]

fracture kick was horrible a bit imo

the stun plus fracture is a bit meh

[analog mirage]

That’s cause we don’t have scaled fractures

[fresh laurel]

then wait for that

[analog mirage]

Yeah that’s what I mean

[fresh laurel]

until then, nerf kick bleed a bit imo

[analog mirage]

Yeah

[hollow canyon]

kick is fine the way it is, take its bleed away and it's still fine

[fresh laurel]

the stun makes up for it fine

[fresh laurel]

pachy is the only one that I think has trouble following that

[analog mirage]

I feel like with Carno it could probably use a little more stam but with more acceleration

[fresh laurel]

vs one utah can be 50 50 or 60/40

(40 on pachy side)

wait crap brain fart

smh

[fresh laurel]

think stam is fine tbh

not sure whats the biggest use for more stam though

already shouldnt run much with bleed so...

trot is fairly fast

Maybe more rams but eh

[analog mirage]

I feel Carno runs out of stam almost too fast, and then as soon as it needs to heal bleed it gets almost no stamina back and is forced to either sit and still not gain much stam and can’t get away

[fresh laurel]

carno should be using the ram to start fights

long fights should be its weakness

know when to disengage

[analog mirage]

The ram is flawed due to Carno being a large animal with such heavy footsteps being almost impossible to miss

[fresh laurel]

mhm

[analog mirage]

And in a plains you are almost guaranteed to be seen

[fresh laurel]

wonder how you could help ram be easier to use...

[analog mirage]

So being a Ambush predator doesn’t work very well

[fresh laurel]

though landing it is quite rewarding

[analog mirage]

Perhaps much lower stam cost since your using most of your stam to reach opponents anyways

[fresh laurel]

tbf

you can start running and ram when close

though most carnos I see start ramming from quite the distance

[analog mirage]

The issue with that is you’ll be guaranteed to be heard and opponents will act fast and negate any means of a ambush

Atm Carno almost always needs to rely on the opponent being distracted by something else be it another player or be distracted irl to not know you are coming

[fresh laurel]

except ramming when closer is a bit more harder to counter since by the time they hear that weird growl, you'll normally have already hit them with it

dont see how reducing the cost would help with it

at that point just make ram have less noise

[fresh laurel]

I mean thats kinda how it should be for ambushing

[analog mirage]

Lowering the cost gives Carno more of a chance to start ramming earlier plus it doesn’t cripple it if it misses

[analog mirage]

That is heavily situational

[fresh laurel]

not being aware of your surroundings should be the fall of you

if you stay on high alert then thats a good skill to know

[fresh laurel]

starting the ram later gives the same result

[hollow canyon]

it is actually quite easy to use

...if you're in a pack

[fresh laurel]

yea carno pack is pretty strong

[hollow canyon]

the more Carnos you manage to pile up one on top of the other the better charge becomes

[fresh laurel]

though I see more solo carnos now

[hollow canyon]

solo Carno - charge is pretty meh, usable, especially against deaf and blind people who constitute a large part of the playerbase but it's pretty useless against anyone actually paying attention

[fresh laurel]

that sums it up ig

[hollow canyon]

then again inb4 we get another feedback asking for Carno's footsteps to be louder because someone didn't notice they were being charged while watching a video on youtube

[fresh laurel]

anyways carno accel faster when? cus funni

[hollow canyon]

I mean it could maybe help but how fast would you have it?

I don't want Carno to reach full speed too fast tbh

[fresh laurel]

fast enough to catch things on surprise more

[hollow canyon]

even if tbh that's what this animal's anatomy is all about

idk I think it may actually become quite cancerous

if you make the acceleration too good

[fresh laurel]

Would really be effect against smalls

like carno should be

I miss fearing carno 🗿

[fresh laurel]

slower than all current smalls
faster than it is now

[ocean sentinel]

I don't really agree with that statement entirely, sure numbers should bring an advantage. However, keep in mind that in a lot cases carnivores have an advantage in movement, so they control the engagement. This means if you get ambushed by a group, you often can't run away, and if they manage to inflict bleed on you, then the hunt is effectively a success for them because they can just track you and can't hide either. Keep in mind the Isle encourages playing unfair, as the risk of failing are simply too high, however this means that you can get stuck in a scenario where you are literally guaranteed to die, which can be frustrating in a game where death loses hours of progress. The victor should come down to whoever plays their strengths best, not whoever had an extra discord friend available. Noice I said encounters, not fights, I'm not saying a teno should be able to fight 5 Carnos at one and win just because they know how to position themselves properly.

[hollow canyon]

If you get ambushed by a superior number of carnivores roughly your own size - you should die, it's as simple as that. Unless you can pull off some godlike plays or they play it extremely poorly.

avoiding encounters you cannot win is part of the game

[ocean sentinel]

Problem with that sometimes you can't. It's quite easy to get jumped in the middle of a forest with no warning, if they are in VC they don't need to make in game sounds to communicate, and cover can make it impossible to see them coming in time to try to evade no matter how vigilant you are. Sure you can mitigate risk by spending a lot time slow walking to avoid leaving tracks, and sticking to bushes, but this isn't full proof and in a map so large, your not going to get anywhere in reasonable time.

[hollow canyon]

it's part of the game, that's the reality of it, if you get jumped in the middle of a forest with no warning by multiple opponents - you should be dying in most situations and there's nothing wrong with that

honestly imo it would mean that something is really wrong with the balance if people were to be surviving that with any significant degree of success

[ocean sentinel]

You could at the very least give each dinosaur a way to escape in these situations, again I said it doesn't have to be done through fighting. Besides, due to friendly fire it's rare there's multiple of them hitting you at once, so it's not like you have to be able to tank ridiculous amounts of damage.

[hollow canyon]

not really, even with friendly fire it isn't that hard to attack your opponent without hitting your buddies unless you have some large AoE attack but that's beside the point

there are some situations where you simply won't be able to beat or escape a situation

if 1 Carno runs into 2 Carnos that decide they need it for nutrients or if 1 Deino swims into a place where there are 2 Deinos that decide they could use some food

they are just kind of screwed

that's just how the game works

same goes for a Tenonto that runs into a full pack of 3 Carnos

or a Pachy that stumbles upon a Utah pack

[ocean sentinel]

So people are just supposed to put up with the fact they can get checkmated out of nowhere in a game where death loses hours of progress?

[hollow canyon]

yes, or more so they should make such decisions so as not to get checkmated out of nowhere

[ocean sentinel]

I already stated why you can never guarantee that.

[hollow canyon]

if you stumble into the wrong area at the wrong time - you will die, that's just how it works, knowing where to go and where not to go is part of the game

and that's fine, sometimes you're just unlucky

as I said - it can happen to any animal at any time

if you log your Deino out in the swamps and then realise there's a duo of cannibals in the area upon logging in you will most likely die but that's just how it is

lucky is a part of this game, a rather large and significant one at that

[fresh laurel]

if you could always survive such an encounter then you kinda lose the fear of surviving and lose some purpose of the game which is to grow

I mean, gotta die sometime right?

[hollow canyon]

I mean don't get me wrong - I understand the point RandomPerson is making

[ocean sentinel]

The encounter doesn't need to be impossible to survive to cause people to fear.

[hollow canyon]

this game requires an absurd amount of time before you get to full adult

but I think that's more of a problem than anything else

[fresh laurel]

not impossible

[hollow canyon]

oh it will never be impossible

[fresh laurel]

just should have a low chance of surviving

[hollow canyon]

I literally just survived getting chomped by a Deinosuchus 10 times my own size

[fresh laurel]

if you are godly at playing or the enemies are dog water

[hollow canyon]

turns out small Deinos are just absurdly tanky...

[fresh laurel]

I survived 10 carnos chasing my one utah, beat that

[fresh laurel]

I kinda wish they reduced how quick deino gains its weight per age but idk how that would play out

[hollow canyon]

that honestly doesn't sound that hard, admittedly I rarely run into packs of 10 Carnos but I have survived being chased by relatively large packs of them as a Utah

[fresh laurel]

I was in the plains man

all directions

was before update 5 too

[hollow canyon]

Deino's main issue is just how its biteforce scales with the size

[fresh laurel]

how bad is it now?

I didnt play deino this update yet

[hollow canyon]

I mean... it's "bad" in that if you have a fight between two Deinos it takes forever for one of them to kill the other

so I was a relatively freshly spawned Deino today on some server

and I got into a fight against a Deino roughly 4 times my size I think

that guy bit me quite a few times

[fresh laurel]

ok...

[hollow canyon]

I swam away and checked my hp

turned out I've lost maybe a quarter at best

[fresh laurel]

what was it

oh damn

[hollow canyon]

we actually had a fight that lasted for minutes with both of us swimming around, dodging up and down and me trying to tailride him

he was hardly doing any damage to me

I was probably just tickling him

cool stuff all around

[fresh laurel]

imo deino water fight is cooler than land

[hollow canyon]

it's not, it actually feels really weird imo

[fresh laurel]

wish they could make land fights cooler

on land its just alt bite first

[hollow canyon]

the vertical control is really poor in this game

[fresh laurel]

fr

[ocean sentinel]

Well, there's still certainly times where its entire luck based. And sure, I get the Isle is supposed to this brutal survival horror game, but even then its just hard to say that that permadeath, random deaths you can't really escape from beyond extreme lucky cases, and hours needed to progress make for the best experience.

[hollow canyon]

the other guy couldn't land a bite on me due to both of us changing our altitudes in the water, it was just really messy and weird

it didn't feel good for either person involved I'm pretty sure

[fresh laurel]

but you gotta admit

currently deino vs deino on land is who hits first

[hollow canyon]

sort of?

but not really? I've won fights where the other deino attacked me first

[fresh laurel]

gotta see how that went

but deino vs deino on land is just hella boring for me

[hollow canyon]

this guy attacked me while I was resting on land

[fresh laurel]

possible tail hit?

[hollow canyon]

he was also larger than me, I wasn't fully grown there

[fresh laurel]

ok thats weird

[hollow canyon]

I was at... 94% I think?

[fresh laurel]

I need to see a recording or something

[hollow canyon]

I don't record my gameplay

pretty much ever, the best I can do is a very short recording that shows something

[fresh laurel]

I mean how do you expect a pachy to easily survive a utah pack tbh

[hollow canyon]

my PC wants to explode when I just have the game running, if I were to record larger parts of it

it would commit un-alive probably

[fresh laurel]

lmao

you have a worse setup then me?

[hollow canyon]

Idk

[fresh laurel]

im using a gtx 1650 on freaking laptop

[hollow canyon]

I have a Geforce 980Ti

my PC was quite powerful but it's a bit old at this point

I'm just waiting for the 4k series to come out before I buy a new one

[fresh laurel]

yours is stronger

by 90% 🗿

[ocean sentinel]

Not entirely, I was able to kill a similar sized deino a few days back in 1v2, even though they got the first hit. When I retreated onto land, I was able to split them up, and I hadn't take much damage since they were just hitting my tail, so I turned around and hit the one that was still chasing me, while the other rested to regain stamina. I was able to kill them since I opened up with a headshot. Of course the second one was going to catch up because they were regening stam, but I didn't really care because I figured I was screwed anyway, and that one did end up killing me.

[fresh laurel]

what are with the text walls with you guys

🗿

[hollow canyon]

it's annoying to just drop a line after a line, it's much better to write one longer message I believe

[ocean sentinel]

Would you rather have me spam a bunch of text messages to get one point across?

[fresh laurel]

but then I get lost in the words and pain

[fresh laurel]

could just keep it short

[hollow canyon]

here I have a picture of 2 Deinos running away from me

I 1v2ed them

and that was shortly after I killed another Deino

[ocean sentinel]

I never said easily, that would be pretty infighting for type of game this is.

[hollow canyon]

unfortunately I had little stamina to actually chase them

[fresh laurel]

meh death roll when so deino vs deino has more action

[hollow canyon]

Most deino players are just bad

it's really that simple

[fresh laurel]

I mean how else would you improve such a thing

[ocean sentinel]

Well, I have a few ideas. You could perhaps allow diving for dinosaurs, so they could try to sneak away, though this wouldn't be too easy to pull off at least in theory since their oxygen supply is very limited so they couldn't go far, and you wouldn't be able to see anything underwater. In the case of the carnivores, you could give them some defensive attack options, which won't be very useful to the ones attacking, right now their attacks are pretty offensive focused right now, which I understand the logic of, but could still act as a way of leveling the playing field abit, while still giving the attacker an overall advantage thanks to their numbers.

[hasty coyote]

I have a better idea: give us cool rocks.

Terrain that we can use to our advantage to sway a fight if we use it right, but if we mess up we die. Like standing on a cliff face to deter utahs from pouncing. you can kill the utahs if they try to pounce, but 1 misstep and you fall over too. Or a winding cave system that can allow us to lose some predators, or you take a wrong turn and corner yourself. Stuff like that, and more unique rock formations. They have plenty of interesting rocks under the map and in the corners where no one gets to really see them. I just hope they decide to put them somewhere habitable so we can have more varied fights instead of plains, hill, forest, and sometimes rock.

[fresh laurel]

I want this

[fresh laurel]

for something like pachy vs group of Utahs I dont think that would make sense tbh

I dont see that working for anything but teno now that I think about it

also I think the current carnivores already have good options

[ocean sentinel]

I still think it would be worth a shot. I think the combination of permadeath, unpreventable deaths, and long growth times really hurts this game.

[fresh laurel]

what is permadeath XD

[stark knoll]

Losing all progress upon death

[fresh laurel]

ah ok

Though I do think you should rely on the environment and moveset the most if you see yourself in such a situation

using hills, trees and etc

[ocean sentinel]

As long it gives some kind of options without being turning things around and making completely unfair for the otherside, I'm all for it.

[dusky surge]

@zealous void stego has literally zero bleed resist and already has special parameters to take additional damage to the head

also a pack of 4 competent utahs can stand a decent chance against a stego so

[idle delta]

Honestly stegos can be bled out by utah with like 95% hp bc its so hp-tanky. As stego, however, ive been attacked by packs of up to 8 adult carnos and survived(As well as being a 78% stego and surviving 5 adult carnos) easily. Stego should get a hp nerf, but leave the damage as it is. After all, a multi-ton creature swinging giant spikes should tear a carno to pieces

[dusky surge]

idk about a hp nerf

[dusky surge]

@alpine plover cera is not a larger carnivore, carno outsizes it

[alpine plover]

then stronger one way or another

[dusky surge]

wdym

[alpine plover]

someone has to come along who can compete with a stego carno and utah packs. And yes Cera not bigger but stronger

[dusky surge]

cera will likely not be capable of competing at all with stego

its also designed more as a scavenger/bully type role, not an active hunter

[alpine plover]

I don't know that, unfortunately, I've only played it once in legacy cera. But sounds not nice :´D

[dusky surge]

sounds better than legacy cera to me tbh

[alpine plover]

@dusky surge what do you think should come?

[dusky surge]

i mean, i have no real expectations for any animal

[alpine plover]

allright

[dusky surge]

allo isnt planned tho and cera wont be the competition people want for stego

[alpine plover]

Isn't planned you say? Why there in concept arts fighting with another Dinos that planned?

[dusky surge]

its not planned for EVRIMA

at least, atm

it will be added eventually, but its not at all a planned priority

[alpine plover]

This makes me mad xD

[dusky surge]

cera is the largest planned carnivore currently. Plans will likely expand after a lot of the current roster on the roadmap is in

[keen plover]

Don't see why allo isn't planned. Still a mid tier at the end of the day. Should also add maia to the evrima list imo

[dusky surge]

It's planned

Just not for this roster

[keen plover]

I know. My thinking is, although it's not in the inhabitants right now - like bary, austro & diablo - it should be there during the next listing. With maia as well.

[fallen vale]

@alpine nest what is this video supposed to prove loll? The guy miserably failed an easy pounce right in front of you and you got a lucky leg break on the first headbutt

https://tenor.com/view/calculating-puzzled-math-confused-confused-look-gif-14677181

[dusky surge]

raptor pfp
raptor-related username

thats all you need to know

[hasty coyote]

Plus, if anything that proves pachy is at a disadvantage. He had to hit the utah so many times to finally take it down.

[alpine nest]

ik that this utah wasn't the best but I fought many pachy vs utah 1v1s this update and only losed 1 or 2 many guys are only salty that they can't just run around and bonking the shit out of everything anymore pachy is in the perfect spot right now my opinion

[dusky surge]

no, it really isnt

pachy is only in the "perfect spot" because its easier for raptors to kill

people are salty that a once powerful animal now sneezes on a raptor lightly and dies to a single pounce after landing like 3 headbutts because none of them fractured legs

[fallen vale]

I think pachy is fine. I think the utah pounce is way too permissive both in term of "aimbot magnetism", recovery time & teleportation of impact pounce which is just so easy to pull off

Buffing pachy wouldn't change much about that

Stats speak for themsevles

people pick what feels the strongest

[hollow canyon]

Oh no, no, no, it's just the novelty of the pounce working now. See? That's the only reason why almost half of the server runs around as Utahs.

[fallen vale]

sure

[hasty coyote]

It’s in a good spot against everything but utah and teno somewhat (but teno is another issue)

I still need to get the exact numbers for bleed and I’m actively trying to get them, but here’s what I have seen from my experience:
Utah does 1/3 to 1/2 of pachy’s bleed with a single pounce and forces a pachy to play incredibly defensive (I’d say it’s between body fractures and leg fracture effectiveness) 1/8 pachy’s hp with a bite.

Pachy on the other hand deals 1/5 of utahs hp with a ram and 1/8 of utahs hp with an alt.

This means both of them have roughly the same utility with their abilities, but utahs does MUCH more damage.

[alpine nest]

Buffing pachy would only take that there are masiv groubs of pachys that are running around and bonking the shit out of everything again

[keen plover]

There is no way you think pachy is a perfect spot 💀

[fallen vale]

Might aswell put a video of a stego fighting a carno next to a cliff and the stego falling off the cliff and claim that stego is in a good spot while you're at it. this "fight" was ridiculous

[hollow canyon]

When the novelty of that wears off it will totally get back to normal. You're asking when that will be? Oh idk, probably... in a year or two.

[keen plover]

as opposed to utahs running around pouncing everything? At least most things can avoid pachys lol

[dusky surge]

my brother in christ you are faster than pachys

[hasty coyote]

Except the fact that they are only faster than teno (barely), and can’t deal with the apexes

[hollow canyon]

idk if Pachy even needs a buf just nerf Utah

[keen plover]

Pachy 100% needs a buff

[fallen vale]

That's my point. you can "buff pachy" but that's putting lipstick on a pig. Utah is the new carno

[keen plover]

Takes way too long to kill a utah. Quite stupid

[alpine nest]

some people forget that they can press e when a utah pounce them and it takes in nearly no time nearly all of the utahs stamina away

[hasty coyote]

I’d just give it a damage buff to alt or head slam.

[keen plover]

utah also needs a nerf so

[hollow canyon]

Fair I'd probably buff its damage on the alt attack a bit but

Overall - nerf Utah, it's literally as simple as that

[keen plover]

also takes your stam...

[hasty coyote]

I literally took bucking into account with my numbers, still deals that much bleed.

[keen plover]

Bucking is garbage.

[hollow canyon]

Bucking is trash

[alpine nest]

but not so much

[hollow canyon]

literally a kneecapped absolute dumpsterfire of a mechanic

it nukes your own stamina and makes you unable to attack giving Utah a free "get out" ticket

[keen plover]

It's quite a lot when it limits your chance to run, attack... Also juvi utahs take a decent amount of stam

Bucking shouldn't even take your stamina. Only the utahs lol

[hollow canyon]

^^^

That's how it used to be but a certain group of players had an issue with that

[keen plover]

why? lol

Bleed is so good

[fallen vale]

I remember calling out this current balance on the last week of the ST when no one played this version saying word for word "If It ships out like this it will be a utah + deino fest"

#balance-feedback-discussion message

[hollow canyon]

Well - the group of players that play Utah were screeching about bucking being too good

[hollow canyon]

Oh dw, I was saying months ago that if Utah's pounce gets fixed this animal will need nerfs

...and then it got hit with some additional last minute buffs... on top of that

[fallen vale]

Yes of course but it's even worse than expected on this version. I don't recall on previous versions the pounce sticking mid tail on carnos & tenos and stuff like that

[hasty coyote]

I said this before the update and I’ll say it again:

Utah is carno 2.0: now with skill

[fallen vale]

The recovery buff on top of all the other stuff is such a joke

[hollow canyon]

I thought that's always been a thing tbh

and yea that recovery buff is a misunderstanding

so is the shorter knockdown

[hasty coyote]

And knockdown nerf

[fallen vale]

Doesn't take any skill bruh, you "aim" with your eyes close or run up to your target and press right mouse

[hollow canyon]

from what I was told it was changed because Pachy did too well vs Utah

[fallen vale]

Skill was taken out of utah on this version, big time

[hollow canyon]

Yea idk where the skill is in playing Utah right now, you just press rmb in the general direction of your opponent and get off them when they start bucking

oh you also need to be aware of the fact that you can actually turn while running

[hasty coyote]

Yeah I may have been wrong on that part of the prediction. But I have still seen utahs be trash (literally killed 3 as a solo pachy lol).

[keen plover]

also if you miss a pounce on a carno, you recover before it can even turn to attack

[hollow canyon]

Yea well I've fought off and killed multiple Carnos on the previous patch as a Tenonto

[fallen vale]

You don't balance a game with the bottom of the barrel in mind. I know a guy who dies because he keeps on resting in front of deinos by accident, you don't balance around this guy

[hasty coyote]

And immediately pounce it’s face

[hollow canyon]

^^^

You balance around people that play the game optimally

[hasty coyote]

Oh I’m not don’t worry. I’m here advocating for pachy buffs.

[hollow canyon]

if someone does dumb stuff e.g. goes after Stegos as a Carno that doesn't mean Stegos need a nerf or Carnos need a buff

[fallen vale]

Even if you were to buff pachy, the problems with utah would still apply to anyone else.... pachies included

[hollow canyon]

^

Utah simply needs a nerf, what kind of nerf? I'm not sure, pounce recovery should get reverted or patially reverted to what it was before

bucking shouldn't cost stamina

that's what I'd go with

[hasty coyote]

Yes, but my main issue with the matchup is the damage difference. Unless they nerf utahs damage or heavily limit it’s usability, pachy is still dealing much less damage.

[fallen vale]

more time on recovery, probably an actual animation on impact pounce so that you have like ... 0.5s to get out of the way and not just teleport. Pouncing mid-tail on tenos / carnos should not latch on but go through

[hollow canyon]

other potential nerfs would probably be decreasing the bleed down to 2 from 3 and maybe making it so that you actually have to pounce the flank to latch onto an animal and not get CCed

[fallen vale]

I think the bleed is fine

If you're able to actually do some decents baits / punishing moves

[hollow canyon]

yea I'd leave it for now, the first two things are what I'd go with

[fallen vale]

now there's just no downside, no cooldown on pounce if you miss, strong bleed, super fast recovery. You just don't care at all

[hollow canyon]

not being able to pounce the face-tail and then teleport onto the flank is also something I'd hold on with now

same goes for the lowered bleed

I mean I will be perfect honest - I think pounce should be a damage dealing tool with a 1:1 bleed ratio

[fallen vale]

the recovery is number one. If a utah fails behind you because you actually did a decent bait, you don't even have time to turn around... boom he's gone. Same with Pachy. You can punish shittty pounces only if it basically happens in front of your dino

[hollow canyon]

oh yea that one is definitely number one needed change

oh the knockdowns also need to get back to what they were

it's not really a utah thing but a global thing

[fallen vale]

Not only does he recover but if he has half a brain left he can actually follow his recovery into an impact pounce directly if you turned around and ran torward him to bite him

[hollow canyon]

but yea - if you get knocked down that should last longer

[hasty coyote]

If a utah falls off the side of a pachy and goes into that massive stun, getting rammed in the face can actually lower the cc time.

[fallen vale]

I don't know why they changed the knockdowns. It did disbalance the teno / carno matchup in teno's favour now

[hollow canyon]

It's been in Teno's favour for quite some time

[fallen vale]

Which I don't think was needed

[hollow canyon]

Teno stomps Carno now

I've seen them taking on 3 Carnos at once

[fallen vale]

Good carnos were very strong depending on the terrain

[hollow canyon]

Fair, I haven't fought that many Carnos 1v1

I haven't lost vs them in a 1v1 but then again I rarely got to find a solo Carno last update

[fallen vale]

If you faced a good carno in a plain on that last update you would know right away lol

[hollow canyon]

the one good thing about this update is that there's much less Carno megapacks

[fallen vale]

They are rare

[fallen vale]

because the clowns switched utah lol

[hollow canyon]

tbh I fought a pair at one point and one of them was good enough to drive me into the woods

[fallen vale]

Carno is actually a lot more fun to play now

[hollow canyon]

when we went into the woods though

[keen plover]

True, but when they do play carno. It's like a flash flood. 20 of them in one go

[hollow canyon]

well... let's just say it tried to continue the fight in the woods and the effect were predictable

[hollow canyon]

Really? I've seen a lot of solo Carnos and pairs, some trios

Which is something I love

I think Carno should always be kept in low numbers and it should be going after other Carno groups

[fresh laurel]

So is it pachies or pachys? 🤔

[hasty coyote]

I normally never run into more than 3 currently. Mostly 1-2.

[hollow canyon]

either or

[fresh laurel]

Or...?

[keen plover]

Fair. I've seen a lot in AU servers

[hollow canyon]

Carno is also an extremely toxic piece of garbage when it gets into high numbers

[hasty coyote]

I go for pachies since it’s easier for autocorrect to tell the difference between pachies and pachy’s

[fallen vale]

Not on my server 😏

[hollow canyon]

basically meaning that you can use either, it doesn't matter

its a plural of an abbreviation

it's not an actual word

[fresh laurel]

I see more carnos than herbis in general

[fresh laurel]

Oh lmao

[keen plover]

Yeah, actual rules unlike officials. Although do you guys have a no back stab rule?

[hollow canyon]

Oh yea I was asked while showing your stats to someone if you run any rules

[keen plover]

No mixpack, no megapack iirc

[hollow canyon]

idk I see/hear more Stegos that Carnos where I play

[keen plover]

and ah I forgot the rest?

[fresh laurel]

My utah pack backstabbed me as i was logging out one time smh

[hollow canyon]

good stuff then

[keen plover]

Yeah that's the one thing I hate the most. Slimy players.

[fresh laurel]

Never playing none vc group chat for a while

[keen plover]

Puts me off playing with randoms

[fallen vale]

Our rules are very basic. It's essentially no rules minus the usual bullshit. Come check it out

[hollow canyon]

either way - let me get back to my Deinos