general-feedback-discussion

[limber hull]

"welp, my rex died, fortunately for me, i can upload this one from last night on EU5 and get right back into it"

[latent olive]

oh boy that giga is going to be surprised when he sees me again

[pale badge]

so the empty servers is sopmething that would be a problem but it would be impossible to fix only restrict with the linked servers making them less probable to be empty

[limber hull]

i have a fix

dont implement an upload system

[pale badge]

okey thank you mister funny

[latent olive]

just

uhhh

don’t give one player access to multiple playable creatures at once

if you want to play something else then that’s on you

[limber hull]

i have swapped servers and killed dinos to deal with these issues

makes it absolutely impossible to revenge kill outside of alts

[latent olive]

You can always just play on a server that you haven’t grown anything on

There’s like 5 American and 5 European servers

[pale badge]

yeah but imagine in the moment where there are 50 playables

[pale badge]

yea i tried enter in a na server and i couldn't move

[latent olive]

At that point in time, the natural death and elder system would mean you could play a full life of a creature, die of old age, and then play something else

[limber hull]

there aren't 50 playables and i am 100% prepared to send one of my 50 possible dinosaurs to elder in order to try out one of the other 49

[pale badge]

yeah but if i am not wrong to get elder you have to get some expecific path and diet to die of age

[limber hull]

i mean.... its not out

so we can't really say anything about how it will work

[pale badge]

yeah

[latent olive]

Personally I prefer the elder system and old age to be a thing regardless of dietary path

[limber hull]

yea, im on the same side, idk why it'd be perk/diet related

[latent olive]

can’t believe the devs are pushing the false narrative that junkfood makes you immortal smh

[limber hull]

strains being perk related i could see making more sense

[pale badge]

It is supposed to be a stage that only ultra healthy dinos get

[limber hull]

i hope the unhealthy dinos just die before they even reach elder

lmao

afk grow and suffer a lame death

[urban flax]

I hope elder isn't forced so if you're not interested in the perks you gain at dying of old age, you can simply keep your dino as long as you wish (or until it dies a horrible death)

[latent olive]

But it becomes a dicey situation

Because just like now, you can have stegos that have been controlling the server for actual months

[urban flax]

I feel Elder system should be achieved by following a certain diet path after reaching adulthood, so having a perfect diet is still necessary, but once adult you get the option to become elder, enjoy the temporary strength and get a perk afterwards

[urban flax]

Stegos controlling a server comes from the fact they have nothing to challenge them, not the fact they have an infinite lifetime

Cause every animal can live infinitely, but you don't see dryos dominating any server

[pale badge]

well thank you for sharing your opinions

[latent olive]

True, but what about the inevitable rex clan megapacks?

[urban flax]

"Inevitable" ? What makes you think they'll be inevitable ?

And what makes you think making elder system forced will change anything about that ?

[latent olive]

There will be rex megapack clans

There always will be

[urban flax]

If megapacking as rex isn't viable, there won't be any
Or they will die out quickly
Either way the problem becomes nonexistent

[latent olive]

Because the rexes WILL die over time

Rather than just fighting something, backing away, and healing while their clan members do the work

thus, immortal rex

[urban flax]

What if they can, you know... just respawn and grow again while being protected by the rest of the "clan" ?

[latent olive]

Then that’s a moment of weakness

And hopefully members of the roster can take advantage of those new rexes

Although it’d be pretty hard to do

[urban flax]

So you assume adult rexes will be invincible but juvie ones will be unviable, that's right ?

[latent olive]

I mean

I can see an adult carnotaurus or two easily taking out a few juvenile rexes

While fat ass rex parents can’t catch the carno

[urban flax]

And the "forced elder system" which would probably annoy a lot of players would exist just to give very determinated players a short window where they can maybe cull rex megapacks by one member ?

[latent olive]

“short” window

[limber hull]

honestly, i think it'd be kinda cool to have a limited lifespan personally, especially if some animals age faster/slower than others

[urban flax]

Unless you make rex's maximum lifetime only 10 hours, the time it's still gorwing and vulnerable is a short window, yes

[latent olive]

apex growth at 7 hours minimum tho 💀

[urban flax]

If the lifespan is long enough, I can deal with it
But I still say it would do absolutely nothing to megapacks

[limber hull]

rex's lifespan should be like a whole-ass 24 hours of uninterrupted playtime AT LEAST.

[limber hull]

oh no idc about megapacks, i just think it'd be cool

[latent olive]

As with pretty much everything

[urban flax]

But a 5 hours-grown rex is not vulnerable by any means

[latent olive]

unless you get fly niche ptera or something lmao

[latent olive]

No, you have other apexes and theropods for that

[limber hull]

frankly, if you can seriously still find joy out of the same damn utah by the fifth time you log in and play it, you're mad

[low canopy]

we all have our own joy, i get bored of any playable within hours unless with friends

[urban flax]

Thanks for reminding me of my mental illness, but I didn't need that

[limber hull]

i also like the idea of the inevitable being a thing, really would make AFKing feel way less worthwhile

[latent olive]

Deinosuchus will probably get a size buff in the future once apexes roll around

Right now it can grab up to 4.1 tons

If it gets increased to, idk, 11 tons or whatever, it’ll be able to grab possibly 6 tons

Rex megapack goes to drink, you have a wide array of targets

[latent olive]

what

[limber hull]

you're wasting valuable hours and minutes you could spend playing the animal

[urban flax]

Well as I said, I can deal with it as long as it's long enough
Maybe there could be diet paths that allow you to shorten or elongate your lifetime to a certain extent (shortening it would allow for a quicker access to the famous perks)

[latent olive]

I have 3 deinos on 3 seperate servers, I join into one, swim around a bit, maybe eat a fish, see if there’s any action and if not, I log out and come back later

[limber hull]

i genuinely want elder to be kind of a conclusion to the animal you've played for a long time, with a ton of inheritance buffs and other cool shit as a reward

[limber hull]

i like the idea of elongating your lifespan. Perks and good healthy diets making an animal live for longer could be really cool

I love the idea of some merc coming across an ancient anky lmao

[urban flax]

Then we got an agreement
I wish you were still QA

[limber hull]

so do i

idk, i feel the inevitable being not only something that keeps you playing to make sure you capitalise on the hours your animal has, but also being something immersive would be cool. I doubt after playing an animal for super long, you'd be too pissed about it dying of old age, especially if you get compensated with a ton of inheritance buffs for next life

[urban flax]

I'm actually starting to see the benefits of forced elder
Growth wouldn't feel like a waste as much, and it would help diversifying the dino population, so it wouldn't be 90% adults and 10% juvies

Would make the game feel more like a roguelike, where death is inevitable but you get something out of it

I wonder what kind of perks would convince a player to die as the same species 100 times and still be entertained
Faster growth sounds nice on paper, but would probably be the most terrible thing ever

[limber hull]

also frankly, i'd rather see an elder and marvel at his perseverance and age, rather than his ability to follow a perk path and diets. Albeit, I would still be impressed by these things, just, I love the ideas elders represent

the elders of a pack genuinely being older, stronger animals that have gone through tons of hardships is infinitely more interesting than "yea i just fully invested into elder perks"

[urban flax]

That's true

"Respect your elders" I guess lol

[limber hull]

i feel like the exact people who would object to this idea are the same people who play apexes to put themselves in power play situations and never ever invest in the game, often forming megapacks and mixpacks to keep the power fantasy going

idk, i love the idea of elders being inevitable, but their quality, how long they last and so on determined by how the animal lived prior. A healthy animal will have stronger elders for longer, an unhealthy animal will have a weaker elder that dies faster

everyone gets elder, elder just isn't always a great thing

[urban flax]

There is plenty of ways this could be done right

[limber hull]

i agree

[barren zephyr]

@bleak atlas I like all of it, I just felt that maybe the armor fractures are rather tedious. But besides that I like the idea of resistances and more damage locations. Not too sure how I feel about weaknesses because yeah sure we could have that but we're dipping more and more into dino bash simulator when we get into specific stats and details for pvp let alone the balancing that goes along with that. Another reason its dipping into the dino bash stuff is because we literally only have fossils to go off of when it comes to dinosaurs really, how many dinos with armor would there be? Because I don't think there is a lot. I feel like it would be better to just stick with the resistances and give armored areas higher resistance.

[bleak atlas]

Yeah orignally it was only resistances and those are mainly for armor. I just included weaknesses because its an easy possibility and should be mentioned. The devs don't have to go with it and i wouldnt really find any use for them, besides making spikes, horns, platt weak to fracture maybe. Idk just wanted to mention it
The new type of fracture was also just an possible idea and isnt something they have to go with. Just wanted to mention it too

[barren zephyr]

Yeah thats cool, I do like the resistances in general though and more damage areas. Because like for example I feel like Rexes feet should be somewhat resistant, given they're constantly walking going through bushes, picker bushes, breaking sticks small logs, etc. But then the thigh up higher would have not as high of a resistance or something since surely the skin would be not as strong there. Same with anky having high resistances to stuff in its armored areas, but its belly would be weaker sorta thing

[bleak atlas]

Yeah it would make similiar dinos maybe a bit more different and in generel. Experience would matter a pot more. Knowing your enemy. For example as bleeder it would be good to know who is resistant against bleed and who not

Something i could maybe add is a growth multiplier for resistances
Just like spikes getting bigger the skin of animals gets thicker while growing and the resistance with it. Idk if that would be good

[barren zephyr]

Yeah thats one of the things I got lost about with all the math was the growth stuff, like it only makes sense armor or tough spots would only get tougher as they grow but it just sounds like a lot of numbers for minor benefit given non adults are already trash (honestly they're trash combat wise) when it comes to fighting as it is right now. So adding some sort of multiplier (which would "nerf" non adults given they're not fully grown yet) would make them even weaker.

So all that makes sense and it makes it more realistic, but at the same time it might just be easier to give the dino in general x base resistances that don't change regardless of the growth because if its a juvi vs juvi fight then the fight is just as fair as an adult vs adult fight instead of "nerfing" the juvi with armor because its not developed yet. And the numbers in general wouldn't matter if an adult attacked someone growing because adults are just so much better.

None of your idea is bad, its good, it just depends on the amount of realism the devs or whoever wants in the game

[bleak atlas]

That was just, because otherwhise carnos would cry after running full speed in a fresh juvi stego spike and nearly dieing

[barren zephyr]

Oh okay well that makes sense then

[bleak atlas]

They cry already that the small spikes that arent even spikes really too so much dmg
Imagine a utah dieing or carno getting massive dmg from it
The salt in here and stego hate in the feedback would skyrocket

[proud coral]

Kinda late but while I definitely understand and even like the points for inevitable elders, it's also kinda odd to have the reward for surviving, the goal of the game, to be losing all your progress.

Like "Congratulations! You've survived as a T-Rex for over 10 hours and have achieved elder status while also gaining special perks throughout your life! Your reward?"

Literally undoes all of your progress

But you get a neat perk afterwards at least!

Like why punish the player for doing what they're supposed to do? I mean I'm fairly certain that's the dev's exact reasoning for elders being optional.

Plus I can even see it encouraging more of a deathmatch mindset, something we're trying to get rid of. Because if you're gonna die anyways, you might as well go nuts and fight whatever.

I totally see the benefits of them being forced, but at the same time (especially with how growth is planned to take hours and hours for some things) I feel it'd backfire.

I do like the idea of what you've done throughout your life affecting your elder stage though.

AFKd a bunch and got into pointless fights? Have fun with crappy elder

[tight oxide]

I thought if you die normally as a elder thats how you get said perks

not if you die in combat

[proud coral]

There are perks and elder perks. Normal perks are just their own thing you get as you play. Elder perks though are special and stick with you in your next life, but yes those perks require you to complete the elder cycle properly.

[burnt bone]

Still, once you get the perks you like, no point in dying of old age

I’d still say elder is optional, but greatly rewarding. That way you have a reason to go elder without losing all of your progress because the game forced you.

[burnt bone]

@barren zephyr why would you want to remove pachy's tap ram?

[barren zephyr]

instant attack that breaks bones

kinda cringe

i mean they can leave it in, it just shouldn’t break bones. but at that point its just a crappy alt bite.

[tight oxide]

imagine rex

💀

[tight oxide]

they claim it fractures arent rng based so they could reduce instant ram fracture dmg instead of removing fracture completely

[barren zephyr]

tap ram jus shouldn’t fracture. its a lil unbalanced.

[tight oxide]

Its really not since your whole strat against pachy is to avoid the head

[barren zephyr]

the tap ram allows the pachy to turn almost instantly and break bones.

[tight oxide]

it does?

Pretty sure you have to turn with w a s d then use tap ram

[barren zephyr]

yes but its easy

[tight oxide]

like pounce

or like any ability ingame rn

[barren zephyr]

its not like legacy turning radius lol its so easy to do a quick 180

[tight oxide]

if it was legacy turn radius then I dont think anything would enjoy fighting utah

[barren zephyr]

yeah obviously

[tight oxide]

and carno would just wanna die

[barren zephyr]

ye ik. im not saying we should have legacy turning.

[tight oxide]

Dont really know why you brought it up

[barren zephyr]

you said you have to use w a s d to turn to tap ram, therefore making it harder than an alt bite. i made a slight joke by saying its easy to turn and tap ram bc its not like we have legacy turning radius.

[tight oxide]

when I said w a s d I meant in general lmao

not a full circle turn

[barren zephyr]

ik that

[tight oxide]

either way without tap ram Pachy matchups would become pretty dog water on pachy side

[barren zephyr]

not even lol

[tight oxide]

it really would

[barren zephyr]

instead of tap ram just alt bite and charge a quick ram

[tight oxide]

you cant exactly do that quickly

not efficient

[barren zephyr]

alt bite is meant to used to create distance as pachy. ram is meant to do real damage.

[tight oxide]

also imagine trying to do that against carno or something

[tight oxide]

alt bite is meant to be a cc move pretty sure

[barren zephyr]

yes thats what i meant. knock them over at close range to create distance.

with tap ram being as good as it is the alt bite isnt used for its intended purpose

ppl just alt bite and then tap ram

[tight oxide]

alt bite helps for things behind you or on your side...

[barren zephyr]

yes and tap rams work as well

[tight oxide]

less efficient since alt is still quicker

plus would be pretty easy to bait alt bite

[barren zephyr]

yeah its easy to bait tap ram too. its just the fact that an instant attack can break bones.

thats dumb

[tight oxide]

its a easy to avoid attack at times tbh

it really makes sure you dont stay near pachy front

which is pachy whole defense

instant ram also still does less fracture damage so...

[barren zephyr]

it still fractures which allows the pachy to land more fractures

[tight oxide]

only to things its size

[barren zephyr]

in an active fight the severity of the fracture doesn’t matter. its abt the fact that you are fractured.

[tight oxide]

a sensible pachy would normally land the leg fracture and try to run against bigger threats

[barren zephyr]

ive had the shit beat out of me as a carno constantly soooo

[barren zephyr]

yea but what abt the plague of kos pachy packs?

[tight oxide]

I mean Carno still has that bite energy

[barren zephyr]

not when ur head is fractured lmao

[tight oxide]

thats a server issue and not pachy issue?
a kos pack of anything is bad

shouldnt be nerfing something just because of overpacking

[barren zephyr]

ig so but its especially powerful for pachy imo

[tight oxide]

nah that goes to utah

[barren zephyr]

its not even necessarily overpacking

[tight oxide]

a group of pro utahs is godly

[barren zephyr]

lmao ye me and my mates were tearing it up the other night as utahs

[tight oxide]

Im just saying we should balance a playable based on its intended gameplay

[barren zephyr]

ig so yeah

[tight oxide]

Utah works well in packs but eh alone

[barren zephyr]

tru

[tight oxide]

Pachy is viable alone

and even more if they fix its bugs and how healing fractures work

[barren zephyr]

it shouldn’t be tho. pachys were pack animals.

[tight oxide]

pachy should be viable alone...

I say pachy does its job well in the ecosystem when it works

[barren zephyr]

agreed but tap rams are just a lil much

[tight oxide]

I never had an issue fighting pachy with its tap ram tbh

[barren zephyr]

alt bites work perfectly imo but i jus say agree to disagree

[tight oxide]

agreed

[barren zephyr]

wait till they alt bite you and then cave your ribs in lmao

[tight oxide]

utah vs pachy is just a game of who lands their ability first lol

Carno vs pachy is pretty favored for Carno if Pachy is alone

[barren zephyr]

tru. even then on bad terrain pachy will kill utah every time.

[tight oxide]

actually I would disagree there

on bad terrain both have trouble landing their abilites

so then Utah if it plays careful could over come and win

I mean it depends on if Pachy is easily

[barren zephyr]

tru but if a utah initially lands a pounce and then jumps off up a hill it’s doesn’t launch far enough to get away.

[tight oxide]

Utah can still win without pounce

[barren zephyr]

yeah but its a lil harder lmao

[tight oxide]

You can just bait pachy to miss its rams and keep biting

dont forget Utah vs Utah can be a quick fight even without pounce

[barren zephyr]

with the lag and desync its easier said than done

[tight oxide]

lag and desync is not the intended part of the game

[barren zephyr]

obviously

but thats a whole nother issue so oh well

[tight oxide]

can only wait

[barren zephyr]

fr

[tight oxide]

I just want stable fps bruh

[barren zephyr]

same

[small anchor]

i just want 60-100 ms 😭

[burnt bone]

@barren zephyr sorry I’m a bit late, didn’t get an @ so I assumed you didn’t reply. Tap ram is much harder to hit than an alt and has more end lag, so more risk for more reward. Plus it only works on things it’s size (basically only utah and babies). So I think it’s balanced, plus utah can pounce and take down like 1/3 of pachy’s bleed with buck, which is a death sentence if the utah can keep up the pressure. Pachy can ram and potentially kill the utah with a break if it keeps chasing. Lastly, utah takes less time to grow and pachy can’t run from utah, so the fight should be pachy sided and it is. The fight is in a good spot, a skilled utah can bait out attacks and kill a pachy, but it’s difficult. 2 utahs have the advantage in the fight, and 3 is almost a guaranteed win.

[burnt bone]

And also this: #balance-feedback message

[barren zephyr]

@drifting rose I saw you put a question, it fixes the weird dip in Anky’s original concept

[burnt bone]

It is a very nice change

[drifting rose]

lol i thought it was a joke that the dip in the back annoys the community i didnt know it actually annoys yall]

i didnt even see the difference

[barren zephyr]

Ye it’s just a super odd and ugly decision, it’s something super minor that bugs me a lot

[drifting rose]

i think it adds some uniqueness to anky

its not that huge of a dip to me they both look ok but the dip looks better

i feel like they didnt want anky to look roundy and they wanted a more rough flat look but not a major one which is why its a small dip

[barren zephyr]

They’re saying that it isn’t a dip

But a fold of armor like how Indian rhinos have

[drifting rose]

well what ever it is it looks unique and interesting to me

[burnt bone]

They made it rhino anky, but the dip looks bad on anky, my boy is supposed to be fat and round

Plus, the spino concept art makes it look so much better, but I can’t tell if it had the dip or not

[drifting rose]

too me i think the acro is weirder its fat hows it supposed to be speedy if it looks like it lives a mc Ds

[barren zephyr]

Yea idk why those chose Acro to be speedy

It’s like one of the slowest large theropods

[burnt bone]

See, imagine a slender dino being fat, and a fat Dino being slender and has a dip

I’m fine with everything about anky, except the dip. The dip makes me mildly upset.

[drifting rose]

no its not supposed to be fat its just u have only see anky as fat and derpy and round and plump

[barren zephyr]

Anky be wide and round af tho

[burnt bone]

I never said derpy, I guess a better term is stocky rather than fat

[drifting rose]

the dip only makes it look skinny if u saw the spino concept hes fairly chunky

[burnt bone]

That’s what I said, it looked better in spino concept. But I’m not sure if that’s the actual design, if it had the dip at all, or if tapwing decided to draw it like that.

[barren zephyr]

The reason it looks good is because you can’t see the dip

[burnt bone]

Tapwing’s concept art isn’t 100% accurate. Plus, I believe we have the model, but it might be outdated (hopefully) and I have to go check.

nvm, this model is good. theres no dip

[drifting rose]

i dont think the dips that notice able XD

[barren zephyr]

There’s a dip if you look close enough, looks better then the art tho imo

[burnt bone]

i dont think there is a dip, but if it looks like this and not like the concept im good

[burnt bone]

wait i see it now

yeah, its a bit odd, but much better than the concept

[glossy matrix]

Anky does not need to be "improved" lmao

Its already by far the largest and widest animal of its entire group

instead they decided to make it suck at defence so that it could be a miniscule bit faster

[last lily]

^This. Everything with this. One hundred and ten percent.

[uneven mist]

How do you know that it suck’s at defence when it isn’t even out

[glossy matrix]

Because it's thin af and barely covered by the osteoderms

Predators will be able to get their jaws around it

[lapis swallow]

He needs to be T H I C C B O I

[uneven mist]

Make anky this round and its perfect

[uneven mist]

It might get a smal change but still, it looks good. The only thing they need to do us make it fatter and fix the dent

Pluss i feel like armadillo/rhino anky is more unique than a generic anky

[glossy matrix]

we went over this already, anky does not need to be changed or edited in any way to make it viable

changing its proportions in favour of speed makes it less viable

The longer legs open up the underbelly for easier attack

[uneven mist]

Ok, so they should. Make the legs shorter, fix the dent and make it fatter. There our perfect anky. Mabye make the Club bigger too

[stark dust]

Legacy anky is better

[uneven mist]

While i do aggre that our anky looks too skinny and is too tall so i hope they can change it a little

[uneven mist]

https://tenor.com/view/well-yes-but-actually-no-well-yes-no-yes-yes-no-gif-13736934

[uneven mist]

To something more like this

[glossy matrix]

I'd make the osteoderms cover more of the animal too

Then it'd be pretty good yeah

[pure quiver]

@maiden anvil I love your suggestion! The disorienting sounds to deter smaller predators is a smart idea, perhaps a stun where the animals scratch at their own ears, essentially a "Sound Stun" giving enough chance for the young ones to run and the adults to fight back with a sideways kick! Which is another idea I absolutely love! Omni-directional kicks depending on where you're looking! And maybe kind of like the Utah pounce you could do a "trample" attack by trapping the victim underneath and pretty much jumping on them! Although that may be an attack that would only work on smaller animals.... Still, the kick is cool! And maybe a weak headbutt, because Para's head is pretty bony! But maybe instead of bonebreak it just stuns the victims? Pretty much a close range "sound stun" but also causes minor damage.

As a side note, it would also be amazingly cool and freaky if Para could also somewhat copy other calls, like the rumble of the Deino's call, or the bellow of Stego's call! All to drive predators away!

[maiden anvil]

Seems like you really liked my idea which is nice to see. Although stuff like headbutt and mimicking for para is a little ehhh…

[limber hull]

headbutt on para seems eeeeehhhhh

its got a very hollow skull

[maiden anvil]

Exactly ^

[pure quiver]

true

[pure quiver]

Shoulder bump and foreleg stomp sounds good to me as attacks besides the side kick

[tight oxide]

carno moment

[fallen cargo]

i like the uniqueness for the sound attack, though how would you do counterplay to it?

i suppose if it had a pretty good tell, like maybe you hear the para winding up for the attack giving the predator enough time to get outta the range before they get hit

[maiden anvil]

There’s always ways to balance it. Being a highly tweakable thing. Range as well as stuff like you said can always be considered to be added

[fallen cargo]

true. i did think of something neat tho, if you "aim" the head forward it could come out as a cone for more of a stun in a more controlled radius, but if you aim at the ground the range will be shorter but it comes out like a shock wave. just an idea i thought was neat

[frosty willow]

Bite is better

Especially since horses do bite as an defense alot

[proud coral]

Para bite sounds painful.

[burnt bone]

@clever thistle theres one major issue with "flesh grazing" mechanics like that, its abuseable. People can just mixpack with like a pack of utahs and a stego and sustain the utahs between hunts easily. If you decide to make it deal too much damage to be sustainable food source, then its too good in combat. If you make it feed too little, then its basically useless. Its a good idea in theory, but is too easily abuseable.

[tight oxide]

make flesh grazing take stamina
have a sorta limit on how much hunger it call fill your bar, almost like grazing on grass
while making the actual move itself do decent damage and amazing bleed

also have it so you cant drop it to feed others

though im not sure how one would balance it so you can feed your babies

I assume you just eat the flesh and throw up the food for your babies

[burnt bone]

still can cause the issues i said before, a stego can just be a living buffet, or its too good in hunts

or its just not viable at all

[tight oxide]

how so if it would more so just stop you from starving?

you could make it give no nutrients too

so theres more reason to get the actual kill

Like I thought lets say Giga does flesh grazing and and max it will get 25% hunger filled while gaining no nutrients

If you decide to just run away after flesh grazing you miss out on the nutrient buffs

[burnt bone]

still can be used to keep a pack alive between hunts with a mixpacking steg. All they need to do is hunt one thing and fill up on nutrients, then just follow the steg til the next meal. Or, it could become too risky for the reward and wouldnt be worth it to use, as you said, why not just go for the kill from the start?

[tight oxide]

dont think it would be a good idea to keep flesh grazing a stego friend since the bleed would start to pile up

[burnt bone]

if the bleed is enough to cause more bleed than it feeds, it could end up being strong in a hunt, it makes hit and runs easier with some burst bleed

it would need to be very carefully balanced, which requires frequent changes, but the devs only update like once a month at most, so it will likely stay unbalanced for months

[tight oxide]

wouldnt that be how such bleeders work?

you keep stacking your bleed with bites

[burnt bone]

yeah, imagine landing like 2-3 bites worth of bleed at once and running off, changes the combat quite a bit

[tight oxide]

except you sacrifice a good amount of stam

[burnt bone]

anyway, it would need to be carefully balanced, there probably is a perfect point of balance, but it requires a lot more balance than what is needed, and the devs already have difficulty with the current balance and infrequent updates

[tight oxide]

To be fair the Devs are trying to balance the game when its dealing with a somewhat horrible ecosystem that's full of combat breaking bugs
They are trying to balance Carno the small game hunter to coexist with only small game and 2 different apexes
one apex one shots everything but one playable and is water locked
while the other can only reliably die to a pack of utahs which is currently dealing with their special move being broken

I would want to say we wouldnt exactly have so many balance issues if the devs thought a bit more on what they were adding

Like adding Stego? The one with the best matchup against Utah compared to other apex Herbivores?

[burnt bone]

yeah, its kinda messed up a bit atm, but the infrequent and massive changes make the game unbalanced in certain aspects for months

[tight oxide]

Not gonna lie, I kinda hope the devs try to release stuff in small but faster updates

But some reason as you saw with update 4 the smaller stuff got mixed together (Pachy was suppose to come later)

[burnt bone]

if they had more frequent balance updates, it would be better. like maybe once a month or 2, but they decided to make a massive balance patch that just swung the balance the opposite way

[tight oxide]

update 3.75 be like

[burnt bone]

pachy was only supposed to come later so they could get better data on diets first, but pachy was already completed and we were waiting for a long time for update 4, so they decided to release it early

[burnt bone]

the current update be like

[tight oxide]

Ngl they did a bit too much on the changes

Buff Carno while nerfing Pachy

Kinda wish nerfing Pachy came first before buffing Carno but eh

[burnt bone]

lets change the whole environment and diets to spread out the herbies. ok
lets nerf the over tuned herbies. might be a bit much, but ok
now lets buff carno so it can better fight its competition. ok wait a second

then the issues with tracking became apparent, and more issues with hitboxes.

[tight oxide]

now lets talk about pounce :D

I would argue it became worst ngl

[burnt bone]

so literally every issue atm is helping carno. hitboxes, diet, buffs, nerfs, food, and tracking

[tight oxide]

Why is that though

Why does almost every problem help Carno?

Also surely they saw what would happen if they made tracking work like this with Carno

[burnt bone]

didnt play utah much in up4, so i cant say much. but pachy's ram went from versatile and consistent, to predictable and not work half the time

[tight oxide]

wonder how

[burnt bone]

just coincidence and lack of foresight, hopefully they learn from this one and fix the issues in the future.

[tight oxide]

do you think they will do a complete hitbox readjustment soon?

aint no way they will keep Carno bite hitbox this way forever

[burnt bone]

prob not a complete readjustment, but a decent one. carno has too big bite, i got no clue what they did to utah's pounce, pachy's ram is canceled by lag or a slight incline, teno's tail slam does not reach down at all (has been a minor issue since up3), and i still see carno rams knock down tenos from their tail tips

[tight oxide]

Also another question, do you think pounce dismount should get an adjustment for hills?

since as you know its kinda just a bad idea to try dismounting on a hill (sometimes pouncing)

[clever thistle]

good point, thanks for reminding me

[burnt bone]

Sorry for late reply, had to go do something. I personally see it as a good idea to adjust it to not be as bad on hills to an extent. Some hills should be steep enough to be a problem, but a slight incline shouldn’t negate an ability.

[tight oxide]

and how would you go about stopping negotiating pounce by being near mud/water?

[burnt bone]

Prob wouldn’t change water, it’s still risky for the steg or whatever to be by the water. And it should be taken account for when hunting things, teno is decently reliant on using water to escape. Similar thing with mud, you need to play around it. But personally I think mud should allow you to use abilities, but at a higher stam cost. Plus, you can generally trap whatever decided to sit in the mud and it will need to leave eventually. It’s basically the utah equivalent of carnos and rocks.

[tight oxide]

For the water I mean how you can get pounced on then turn the other way to let said raptor fall and get smacked by you due to reduced speed

same for mud too

What Im getting at is it feels a bit too easy to counter pounce those ways

[burnt bone]

Still, I’d prefer them to fix pounce then decide what to do from there, if we make it uncounterable then it’s carnos all over again

[tight oxide]

Well theres still trees and bucking

ones that actually make sense

[burnt bone]

I’d rather small changes than fixing every issue at once and the ability becomes op

[cyan flame]

Terrain should matter and be used, be it against pounce, or by just cutting of attack vectors, or other ways. There's nothing wrong with that.

[tight oxide]

Do you mean fixing actual pounce?

[burnt bone]

Dismount could go a bit higher and further imo, but I’m not sure what that could affect. Fix pounce, then decide if it needs help

[tight oxide]

I think a farther dismount would end up helping the whole mud and water thing

[burnt bone]

Yeah, make it actually work and not float/not do anything and probably keep momentum. Then see what dismount needs with the added data.

[cyan flame]

Last thing we need is a safer dismount

[tight oxide]

Ehh

Depends

[cyan flame]

Alright. Just think about how it will go vs a trike, or better yet, a parasaur or shant. What are they supposed to do to counter utahs?

[tight oxide]

Depends on their abilites

Trike just has to keep its head forward

[burnt bone]

They could also adjust dismount per Dino if it’s needed

[tight oxide]

that would take more work it seems

theres probably at least over 20 playables Utah can latch onto rn

not sure on how many 500 kg and up playables are confirmed

[burnt bone]

That’s why I say we need more data on pounce when we fix it, then we can decide what to do with dismount easier

If utah still gets bullied, buff dismount. If utah is fine, no need to buff it

[tight oxide]

I mean rn I cant tell if dismount is bad due to oversized hitboxes, lag or desync but if all of those are fixed I think we can get a better grasp on how good dismount is

[cyan flame]

And if you keep head forward, then your flanks and rear are totally open? Not sure how that'll save it :p

Dismount is only bad due to roster choices being bad most likely

[tight oxide]

I dunno what you want to me say about Trike defending itself against multiple raptors since Trike is going to be utah go to apex herbi to hunt

[cyan flame]

But the risk of adjusting utah for current roster is that it becomes impossible for the proper prey to survive

[burnt bone]

Almost Everything is basically anti utah atm

[tight oxide]

yup

Though dismount shouldnt be affected by that

[cyan flame]

Hence why I'm concerned that if we "fix" utah for current roster, it'll be too good for other things

[tight oxide]

dismount should be the same around the globe lol

[tight oxide]

Utah rn seems like it would clap anything else if it plays right
even then it can clap current roster if it plays right

[burnt bone]

Then we can nerf it when the time comes

[tight oxide]

NOOOOOOOOO

I dont even know what to nerf on it rn tbh

[cyan flame]

Oh sure, I'm fine with that. I don't think most players who'd be used to something different would be :p

[tight oxide]

Utah seems to be the most balanced thing rn

Well when it works

[cyan flame]

Yeah, bugs are the main issue. The second being balance in relation to current and future roster.

No point in balance if things don't work at all unfortunately

[burnt bone]

Look at pachy, most of us just adapted to the new ram

[tight oxide]

I would say Utah would have the best time if they fix desync and hitboxes

[cyan flame]

Do you remember the reactions when utah went from damage to bleed? :p

[tight oxide]

wdym new ram? the new turn?

[tight oxide]

remember when pounce did great dmg and bleed but utah only had 15n bite?

funny times

[burnt bone]

No, wasn’t into balance til my Dino got gutted

[cyan flame]

Mostly great damage, bleed had it's own interesting time :p

[burnt bone]

Turn changed the playstyle drastically

[cyan flame]

Shred stego in 4 seconds xD

[tight oxide]

Stego tbf was horrible in general back then

[cyan flame]

Haven't really gotten better since then, just saved by the bell (stats) more or less :p

At least utahs no longer teleport, that was also a good time!

[tight oxide]

btw why did they introduce iteria (turning changes if I spelt the term right)

[cyan flame]

I think because they wanted the turning to matter more? Making the critters feel it more if they were bigger/heavier?

[tight oxide]

definitely took utah mains some time to adjust to that lol

[cyan flame]

Considering I'm pretty sure they messed up the values or something, yeah :p

[tight oxide]

wdym messed up the values?

[cyan flame]

Small things having way more inertia than they should and stuff like that, also some fps affecting it somehow. Is it still much of a thing? I've not been utah much but I've not really noticed anything xD

[tight oxide]

I mean I feel like turn is much more noticeable on Utah than before

[cyan flame]

Maybe it is, I don't think I've played the smaller and faster things enough to notice honestly

[burnt bone]

I basically only play the smaller things, so it’s just natural at this point if they changed it.

[tight oxide]

carnos are gonna have fun trying to bite utah and dryo

[blissful onyx]

it really depends on what direction its taken by the devs but if i had to guess it'd be like something that slows you down and does damage

i think its best to think of my suggest as less of "this is how exactly its gonna work" and more of "if this is added here is one way it could work but there are other possibilities"

[proven river]

Sounds like a dope idea tbh though

[blissful onyx]

"like a carnivorous plant" you'd have to swim into it

[blissful onyx]

thanks i appreciate it

glad you like it

[urban flax]

Oh another beelzebufo suggestion
Now that I know how large the thing actually was, the sound of it swallowing a hypsi whole is even more ridiculous

[proven river]

Dude yeah even for a hypsi that frog is smaaal

[last lily]

Time for steroids.

[elder fox]

We need carnoids, the isle needs them

[uneven mist]

@primal hatch #🔧-evrima-troubleshooting-🔧 check pins or pin an admin

[lapis swallow]

@cobalt echo Mixpacking cant be stopped on official cuz its a no rules server

[cobalt echo]

shame because it should be a rule

[ashen wasp]

Should be incentivized against via mechanics imo

[simple cosmos]

Can I ask something

[uneven mist]

Go ahead

[simple cosmos]

@uneven mist I’m new but what’s the best way to grow up the baby rex I want an adult so bad

[uneven mist]

I dont play legacy and i havent played rex in a while but from what i think. The best way to grow is by either being nested or starting alone and afk grow. Stay near water and be Well hidden and if ai dont spawn then move

[simple cosmos]

@uneven mist do people ever like one play as Carno and other herbivore and just let them eat the other to grow?

[uneven mist]

Sry… i dont seem to understand that. U mean kill an herbie is ok?

[simple cosmos]

@uneven mist I mean two people team up one play as carno other herbivore and just let the carno kill them and like speed level

[low canopy]

some use multi account like that but its really rare, mostly because growing anything is easy

[uneven mist]

If you mean mixpacking then no. Most people hate it

[low canopy]

btw, secret to growing apexes is abusing the AI spawn system, you want to grow when server has like 80 or less players on it to guarantee that you get all the AI spawns needed to grow

[simple cosmos]

I just have such a hard time finding ai

[low canopy]

more players server has, less chances for you to get AI spawn

[simple cosmos]

Yeah I was on last night and there was like 120 people in the server couldn’t find anything

But it was a high ai spawn noob server

And I started to run with a pack got to like 85% then another pack came and killed me closest I have gotten to growing lol

@uneven mist how do you unlock the spino

[uneven mist]

You either have to join their discord server and earn point or buy a growth.(dont buy it, its a waste of money)

[simple cosmos]

How do you buy growth I’m so confused lol @uneven mist

[signal beacon]

You buy it with cringe ass points if your server offers it.
Officials have deceased on legacy so community servers just fester there

[uneven mist]

^ what syrus said

[simple cosmos]

Ew

[signal beacon]

Idk how the whole process works I just know it's just a big cash grab

[uneven mist]

Idk Why people bother buying dinos or growth

[simple cosmos]

What server do you guys play on normally

[low canopy]

i dont play legacy anymore

[uneven mist]

If i play legacy again (for some reasion) i play teutonic

[simple cosmos]

What’s the difference between legacy and none legacy

[tight oxide]

life finds a way or nycta tbh

[signal beacon]

Because legacy spino is the embodiment of jp fantasy.

Man literally cannot die to a single herbivore in game.

[tight oxide]

pretty sure legacy spino can die

to a herbivore

[simple cosmos]

Can I play with someone later tonight when I’m off work so you can explain this to me and show me the ropes

[signal beacon]

They'd have to be braindead. Spino got that Utahraptor turning

And practically infinite health

[uneven mist]

Evrima? Evrima has more mechanics and unique dinos. Legacy has less mechanics but more dinos but they arent unique at all(they are mostly the same)

[simple cosmos]

How do I play evrima?

Is that how you get that cool T. rex with like 5 rows of teeth

[uneven mist]

#videos-and-streams message

[uneven mist]

? No, rex isn’t in yet and hypos arent either

There are 9 playables in evrima rn. Those are teno, dryo, hypsi, pachy, stego, utah, ptera, deinosuchus and carno

[simple cosmos]

So when they adding hypos

[uneven mist]

….not for a long shot

[simple cosmos]

Damn I always see pictures of them

And they already have the Dino model so why not just add it

[uneven mist]

@simple cosmos Also here is the roadmap. Keep in mind that most of the dinos in the inhabitans list could come at any given time bc they arent tied to an update exept troodon (Also no dinos wil come around update5 but most likely 5.5) https://trello.com/b/G5tsb4XI/public-roadmap

[simple cosmos]

Ooooo cool when’s the next update?

[uneven mist]

No eta, but mabye mid- july or late

[simple cosmos]

Well anyone wanna help me get the T. rex and hang later?

[simple cosmos]

I just read about the spino and that’s my fave Dino so I’m big sad now

[uneven mist]

Have u seen its consept?

[simple cosmos]

No I just read that it’s most likely unplayable unless your in sandbox

[uneven mist]

Well heres evrima’s spino when it comes out

[simple cosmos]

So like why is there a evrima and why don’t they just add it to the normal isle? @uneven mist

[uneven mist]

Legacy’s code is too broken so if they add something everything breaks

They had to start everything from scratch

So now evrima can have more mechanics and more dinos in evrima have mechanics

[simple cosmos]

That kinda makes me mad lol so why not just come out with the isle 2 or something I mean games still in beta

[uneven mist]

Its still in beta and in development so it isn’t finished yet

[icy lion]

They didn't want people to have to pay for a separate game

Evrima is what the Isle was always meant to be, so why make it a new game?

[uneven mist]

^ what Luna said

[simple cosmos]

Yeah but now you gotta download all this stuff

[tight oxide]

plus rn you kinda get 2 games for 20 bucks

[uneven mist]

[elder fox]

Tbf its only just a beta change

[icy lion]

You'd have to do that either way

[tight oxide]

you can have both evrima and legacy downloaded at the same time

[elder fox]

Should take less than 4 seconds to switch

HOW TELL ME PLS

[tight oxide]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Db9VMtrXSc

[elder fox]

Tysm

[simple cosmos]

So wait why not get rid of the game code they currently have and replace it with evrima copy and past and just update that every month like any other game?

[tight oxide]

that wouldnt speed up updates

plus people still like legacy so the devs iirc want to keep it up until Evrima is more complete

[simple cosmos]

But isn’t the same just like less bugs and more Dino

[elder fox]

No they play a lot different

[uneven mist]

Its not really the same, evrima has more complex mechanics while legacy didnt have so many

[icy lion]

None of the coding is the same

[simple cosmos]

I’m like deep in Dino beta matrix so it’s basically a beta within a beta

[tight oxide]

Legacy has its fair share of bugs ngl

[uneven mist]

Legacy is build opon bugs

[tight oxide]

lmao

Though Evrima doesnt get the green light on bugs yet

[uneven mist]

Yep

[tight oxide]

question, how long do you think it will take to finish setting up the nest invite system for update 5

[simple cosmos]

So the damn game is broken and they got rid of workshop so we can’t have fun with it even though it’s broken

[uneven mist]

i honestly dont know

[tight oxide]

||I mean there are modded servers||

[finite marsh]

the isle has modded servers?

[tight oxide]

yea...

[simple cosmos]

Yeah but you have to do scetch stuff to get in those that can mess up your pc so I’m good

[tight oxide]

just kinda not official

[tight oxide]

Pretty sure its just there

[finite marsh]

i wish all dino game devs just combined to make the sickest one haha

id invest

[uneven mist]

…that would prob be a shit show tbh

[simple cosmos]

How long has this game been in beta?

[finite marsh]

debatable, but yeah it could be

[finite marsh]

came out in 2015

[icy lion]

Evrima was released to the public late June 2019

The Isle as a whole became public December 2015

[simple cosmos]

Jesus Christ

[finite marsh]

yeah...

modders would really help, but seems to be an issue. wish we could know why

[simple cosmos]

You think if they got support from a bigger title company it would come along

[icy lion]

Money isn't an issue, and the devs are actively hiring for more team members

[finite marsh]

so its pretty funded?

[icy lion]

What do you mean?

[finite marsh]

like they have the money to finish it?

[icy lion]

Yea, the devs have said they make enough from game and merch sales. It's why they reject the idea of Patreons or kickstarters for the game, as well as microtransactions

[finite marsh]

oh interesting. seems like the game would be further along, ya know? But i dont know anything

[icy lion]

Evrima's only existed for about 3 years now, which is important to consider

[simple cosmos]

I don’t want to sound rude but what’s stopping other Dino game creators from making something like this like if the people that make ark made something like the isle

[icy lion]

The only things ported over from legacy were models and some sounds, really

[icy lion]

There are other dino survival games that have different gameplay from each other. It's a matter of preference

[finite marsh]

wow... thats really unfortunate

[simple cosmos]

Is it way easier to hunt ai in evrima

[icy lion]

There's more variety of ai, but they don't spawn on top of you and scream constantly like in legacy

And the boars will kill you

[simple cosmos]

I just have a hard time finding them in legacy like your survival is based on luck sometimes

[barren zephyr]

its based on map knowledge mostly

[tight oxide]

imagine the bugs... the models, the combat and clashing ideas lmao

[finite marsh]

i mean yeah, thats true. but there could be objective goals that the team could have

[simple cosmos]

I was told to follow the river and that’s my best bet

Or I wish they would spawn corpses along with ai

[tight oxide]

I dont see how anything would help
I mean look at how Path of Titans wants their game to be, MMO RPG while The Isle wants survival

[simple cosmos]

What is path of titans

[tight oxide]

another big Dinosaur game

[barren zephyr]

thats bad advice lol

[tight oxide]

when you kill something compys will come to try and eat

at least in evrima

[simple cosmos]

Oweee

[finite marsh]

yeah it would have to stay true to what The Isle is as a survival game 100%. other devs probably have to take other directions because it would be difficult to compete as another survival game. lowkey i bet other devs would be on board if everything worked out, but definitely not an easy thing to do. gotta have a team that has the same vision and goals

[tight oxide]

And imagine how balancing would go with beast of bermuda team behind it....

[finite marsh]

tbh haven't played it, but im assuming the balancing is bad?

[tight oxide]

Velo can kill an Apato

[finite marsh]

ah yes lol

[simple cosmos]

So is path of titans like the isle?

[sick dirge]

well

both games have dinosaurs 👍

[simple cosmos]

Where do you get path of titans I wanna try it

[tight oxide]

aldreon games website

[simple cosmos]

I guess we gonna try the mobile first

So does evrima have like the rex and all the og Dino still

[sick dirge]

no

[uneven mist]

No, it has teno, stego, pachy, dryo, hypsi, deino, ptera, utah and carno

[sick dirge]

remaining og's are utah, carno, dryo and pachy

[burnt bone]

evrima is focused on adding core mechanics before adding all the dinos atm, so theres not going to be many dinos for a while. Then they are also focused on adding and balancing out the small dinos first, otherwise everyone would just go pick the big bois and they wont have enough data on how to balance the smalls. So things like rex and giga are WAY down the line

[simple cosmos]

Still pissed about what happened to me on a server last night lol

So if I get adult rex in legacy is it really worth it because it’s gonna take awhile

I found a carno group with an adult rex last night called him dad and they killed me

[burnt bone]

maybe, but if you run into a group of 2 rexes, or another rex that knows how to fight well, you kinda just die

[simple cosmos]

Why I’m a baby rex don’t eat your own kind

Family

[burnt bone]

these dinos are people, they like to canni a lot because they find it fun

happens in evrima too. even though some dinos are not cannibal and get sick from eating their own and others cant because they're herbivores, they just kill you for sport and leave the body.

[simple cosmos]

Well imma try again but stay away from people but my adhd says wow big chunky rex friend so imma post if I fail getting to stage 2 or if I make it

[remote thunder]

@alpine prairie There's actually a few caves in Evrima, some of which I've just recently found. I agree they could have more however.

[rough hemlock]

@cunning anvil is there a reason you removed your reply? I thought it fit really well with my idea

[cunning anvil]

Yeah.. I was not entirely sure and confused about an aspect of my addition. I thought it could be wrongly understood so Im gonna think a little more and then reply to yours.

Btw awesome feedback!

[remote thunder]

@gritty terrace You deadly mistaken if you think those Legacy players are going to just pick up Evrima without more playables...

And oh, there's Global... because let's not forget the fact that just because you want to be over Global's removal, they aren't.

[limber hull]

not moving to an inherently superior version of the game because you cant ask a rex halfway across the map to group with you is fucking silly, and new playables are going to keep coming, while legacy will continue to get nothing

[gritty terrace]

well based off of the new dev blog Gali, Cerato, beip and Herrera is coming out by the time Gore happens and that with what we got is quite a bit, really the main reason a lot of people are not playing evrima is because of no nesting and skin customization and that's getting implemented very soon, also I don't really care about global. I am just thinking more of when people buy the game not knowing about evrima they would just see legacy. When evrima by the time gore comes out would look a lot better for a first impression

[remote thunder]

Your opinion doesn't matter. What matters is what the majority wants, and they're playing Legacy still.

It's a fuckin' stupid idea to delete Legacy this early.

[gritty terrace]

I'm not saying delete it this early I'm saying delete it when gore comes out 💀

[limber hull]

if my opinion doesn't matter, neither does yours. Legacy will be deleted, like it or not, and it's on the devs to decide when

[gritty terrace]

or after gore

[remote thunder]

Yep. Just remember that customers don't need to stick with a product they don't like.

[gritty terrace]

wh-

[limber hull]

i dont believe anyone was arguing otherwise

[gritty terrace]

thats why I say having evrima being the main version would be better lmao

yeah Im confused now lmao

[limber hull]

EVRIMA should be the main version after U5 honestly, sick of having people download the game to play with me, only to be stuck on legacy and having to do another long download to actually play with me

[gritty terrace]

^

[remote thunder]

I can agree with making it the main version, just not deleting Legacy this early. I'm saying this as someone who hasn't touched Legacy in months.

[gritty terrace]

something else they could do is make evrima the main version and make you use the BETAs to get to legacy

[remote thunder]

I fundamentally disagree with you here. There's two main reasons Legacy players don't play Evrima:

1. Lack of playables
2. No Global

If you don't believe me, go ask them.

[limber hull]

and one of those is being addressed, the other one is silly to outright reject an entire game over

[gritty terrace]

I have they said nesting and skin system 💀

[remote thunder]

I find that hard to believe, but OK. Those clearly aren't the same ones I talk to regularly.

[remote thunder]

May be silly, but it is what it is. I've explained to you the benefits of allowing Global as an option for community servers, and why it benefits them.

[limber hull]

which is why they'll be able to mod it in

[remote thunder]

And technically you didn't say they "said" that, you stated "the main reason a lot of people are not playing Evrima" as if it was your opinion.. 🤔

[remote thunder]

Eventually, hopefully sooner than later, but I doubt it will be within the new few years.

[gritty terrace]

?

yeah I literally said they said that?

I'm just saying that based off of my friends opinion

[remote thunder]

I'm just reading your reply above dude. It's not worth getting into an argument over... plus I need to go to bed.

G'night!

[gritty terrace]

you are starting the argument but alright then...

have a good one

[barren zephyr]

Legacy shouldn't be deleted or shelved until post Update 6

That's when ALL the previous mechanics would be reintroduced and improved from the predecessor branch. Not alienating nor having previous players wait on mechanics from said branch.

This would be the most appropriate

Introducing most/the average player to an "improved" branch while simultaneously moving forward in new mechanics on a more stable nifty foundation.

Though the progress of this game is buggy, sometimes game breaking and the optimization is a constant battle. So they'd have to figure out how to crawl before they should start running

[urban flax]

Troodon will apply venom through pounces ? That sounds great, but how do you know that @candid mulch ?

[limber hull]

@urban flax i just looked and wow, you're right, spino literally can't swim according to tap. That's... really odd

[whole furnace]

It says underwater walker. I doubt this means it can’t actually swim tho. Tap stated the Spino will be less buoyant so perhaps it will just take more stam for it to actually swim rather than “walk” along the riverbed.

That’s just what I gathered from it tho and it’s possible I’m way off the mark here

[manic flint]

I think it'll be like a hippo, it can swim but it sinks

[proven river]

how is it a dumb idea? hippos don't drown lol, it could jump to the surface to breath but overall have underwater rather than overwater swimming locomotion

[proven river]

also filipe said in isle discussion

[jagged jewel]

we also have spino animations, does that mean its coming out by gore?

[proven river]

[gritty terrace]

mans haven't looked at the dev blog

[jagged jewel]

i have

animations being worked on does not mean the animal is coming soon

[proven river]

but I sure hope we get herra, beipe, galli ( especially ) and cerato by U6 but y'know

[jagged jewel]

same but lets be real we’re only getting one of those by then

if any

[proven river]

by U6? I think 2 is plausible even if unlikely

cerato should come out by U6 though

[jagged jewel]

@candid mulch where’d you get that info? i’ve seen special attack mentions but no mentions of pouncing

[jagged jewel]

ye i agree cerato is needed

[proven river]

@jagged jewel

eventually it'll come in isle news updates lol dw

wait it's out lemme get a screenie

[urban flax]

hippos can swim

[proven river]

they don't swim, they run under the water

[urban flax]

Common misconception
Hippos are good swimmers

[urban flax]

They walk on the water floor because that's where their food is, and it's less tiring
But they can swim pretty well

[proven river]

they are good at underwater loccomotion, not Swimming they are better at moving underwater but they don't swim

[urban flax]

As I said, that is a misconception.

[proven river]

anyways whatever, spino would be fine lol

[hoary dawn]

spino isn't a hippo anyway

[urban flax]

Something that lives in water but cannot swim is bound to drown

Unless it has gills

[proven river]

do you think they'll make spino drown bud?

[urban flax]

I don't think so, that's why I'm confused at tapwing mentioning that spino will not swim.

[proven river]

oh good greif

[jagged jewel]

oh wtf

[urban flax]

Troodon's venom bite pounce is literally what I posted in general feedback some time ago

[jagged jewel]

nah there’s videos of hippos swimming for real and they’re damn good at it, they just choose not to a lot of the time

[proven river]

under water walker

[urban flax]

Yes and that's the stupid thing

[proven river]

ok fair enough but they're still also damn good at running underwater

[jagged jewel]

faster when swimming tho lol

[hoary dawn]

i would be surprised if they didn't have a way for spino to surface for air. like at least an underwater jump that carries it to the surface momentarily

[urban flax]

None of us said otherwise, the problem doesn't come from being able to walk underwater or not, it comes from not being able to swim

[proven river]

Thank you!

[bleak bison]

I want to know what @limber hull thinks about spino getting a hippo walk and how it’s not going to swim

[limber hull]

i mean, seeing as we now KNOW for a fact spino can swim, it just comes off as odd. IDK, I think it's... fine unless sucho is a designated swimmer, in which case, it's really dumb

honestly, it's not awful, but it's weird

If their plan is bary dives, sucho wades and spino walks underwater, that's fine by me

[urban flax]

I wonder how someone would justify spino not being a swimmer tho, because it really doesn't make sense
Bary can swim, sucho can swim, rex can swim, carno can swim, but for some reason spino can't ? By what sorcery ?

[limber hull]

actually we have no confirmation that sucho is a swimmer

but if it's proficient at swimming and spino isnt, that's going to be ridiculous

[urban flax]

I mean, the probability that sucho at least can swim is above 90%
The only animal I can see not being able to swim is anky

[limber hull]

i dont really have an issue with sucho swimming, just it being a proficient swimmer

like, i'll be honest, if teno outswims sucho, i wont be upset

i dont think sucho should be favoured in the depths

[bleak bison]

I think all semi aquatics should be able to swim,all the roster should,but semi aquatics should be better at it obviously

[dusk meteor]

Spino: has body designed to float and swim
Isle spino: make it look like spino more but ignore why it looks that way
🤷 what was the point in even making it relatively more accurate in one way and less in another?

Honestly everything should be able to swim anyway. Most animals can swim, and something semi aquatic not being able to is rather silly. Animals that tend to struggle to swim are those that get water logged rather than just size

[limber hull]

idk if everything should swim. I'd honestly be fine if anky just sinks lmao

[coral yoke]

quite like the idea of underwater walking on spino, but not at the expense of not being able to swim, don't understand why it cant be both, with a preference for the walking

[elder fox]

I think they’re going to make them like hippos, hippos aren’t able to fully swim but however can be seen floating on top of the water to take breathers

[uneven mist]

Yep I remember dondi or someone else wanted spino to be more of a hippo

[stable mica]

as long as it can atleast float instead of outright swimming I think thats fine

[dusk meteor]

@limber hull Just because something is heavy does not mean it sinks. That's the whole basis of the float-and-bloat as to why we find them on their backs and they were found to be more stable than nodosaurs. Probably wasn't fast, probably a bit of a terrible swimmer. But it could most likely float and therefore could most likely paddle and there'fore anky could most likely swim.

also, it's pretty dumb to think an anky would sink. It's wide and flat, a great great shape for displacing water and weights less than a Tyrannosaurus which is a worse shape for floating in general, and pretty much no one contests that rex could swim these days.

[limber hull]

its extremely dense though

which is my point

obviously, weight does not = sink

[ivory summit]

I think this is meant by special ability

[dusk meteor]

@limber hull not especially. Again, super wide super flat. It's not that heavy relatively speaking either with the biggest anky we have (on the most current estimates) sitting at 6.5 tonnes. It'd be fine.

correction: 9 tonnes. My mistake.
Even so, the amount of displacement is still huge. So uh, yeah general sentiment I have on it is that it could probably paddle. If it got turned over there's zero doubt it'd drown though LOL

[urban flax]

Flat stones sink
Anky is more similar to a stone than it is to a boat or a log

[dusk meteor]

Making a stone out of a living animal is not a good equivalent. Animals are considerably less dense than stones.

[urban flax]

Except for ankylosaurids

[dusk meteor]

And not necessarily just in bones. It has plenty of blood and organs, and it needs to breathe. It is not pure armour or bone.

[lapis swallow]

A better anticheat is needed

[cunning anvil]

are there still cheaters?

[lapis swallow]

Yes

There are reports everyday across the chats

Like super obvious hacks

Teleport, speed, tracking, infinite stam

[cunning anvil]

[lapis swallow]

The anticheat kinda sucks

[cunning anvil]

imagine hacking in survival game without even points/leaderboard/score/kd etc.

[lapis swallow]

@small anchor because the update is very close as far as I understood it

[small anchor]

But that had nothing to do with it this whole time the people was asking for a quick bugfix

They needed it more than the upd i guess

It made the dinosaur a bit "unplayable"

[lapis swallow]

But they wont do a bugfix if a update is gonna come in a week or two

[glossy matrix]

the buoyancy paper though

[rare fractal]

I feel as tho this ignores the fact, that in the context of our spino this aspect of their biology is irrelevant to their in game skill set and niche

[teal parrot]

@near tiger FUnny that so may likes are on your suggestion to fix tail biting. But I distinctly recall last year, I made several posts and suggestions regarding this issue, prior to update 4, bone breaks and diets.
I suggested that tails and legs should be vulnerable to bone breaks and bleeds, but damaging limbs and tails should not directly reduce hit points. I suggested that only torso and head damage should reduce hit points. Essentially its the exact same suggestion you made, which 26 people liked with ZERO objections. Except a majority of players nixed my suggestion last year. Its puzzling to me why people liked your suggestion but objected to mine, which was the exact same suggestion, but with mechanical detail.

[rare fractal]

Partitioning spino would be significantly easier if they can only hippo walk, puts them at a sever environmental disadvantage in deeper water, which gives an opportunity for literally everything else but spino to exist in said deeper water

[rare fractal]

The answer to your confusion is time

[teal parrot]

tell me more, im listening.

[near tiger]

perhaps they didnt see it as such a problem then, but now they must xD because i find it to be pretty brutal. im sorry that people objected to yours tho, hopefully it will get fixed tho in some way!

[teal parrot]

So you think it just took time for the problem to mature?

[near tiger]

yeah, probably

[urban flax]

I don't think making spino outright unviable as a semiaquatic is the solution to "niche partitioning"
And it also looks like the best candidate for a deep water dweller

[teal parrot]

Maybe you can offer some insight as well. You were one who objected to my suggestion last year, but you didnt explicitly object to the tail biting suggestion this year. Thoughts? Has tail biting become more of a felt problem, in your estimation?

[urban flax]

I don't know the actual damage from tail bites, because hitboxes are wonky
But anyways it seems very high, a simple reduction would be welcome
I think it's 50% damage for base of the tail and 25% for the tip of the tail ?
If it was 25% damage for base of the tail and 10% for tip of the tail it would already be much better in my opinion

I don't think that "tail bites should never kill" because the way the game engine and combat works don't really allow that
If biting was, for example, grabbing your prey and trashing it around to deal damage like in Depth or Animal Revolution (yes that counts), I would understand tail bites never killing
But since being bitten on the tail doesn't even slow you down, I think tail bites should be able to kill
But only if the size difference is massive or if the prey has almost no health left

[rare fractal]

How does it make it unviable in any way

[urban flax]

A semiaquatic animal that cannot swim is not a semiaquatic animal
So unless they make spino fully terrestrial (which would then turn it into nothing but rex with a long nose), it would become unviable

[rare fractal]

So no, spino would still be a semi aquatic without unrestricted 3 dimensional mobility in water

[urban flax]

You really have no better argument than showing a dictionary description for describing a videogame problem ?

[rare fractal]

No I do, you just were basing your argument on its status as a semi aquatic. Is your only good counterargument saying that your misuse of words is irrelevant?

If you could, can you describe why spino not being able to ascend and descend at will is a problem?

[urban flax]

You seem to forget that every semi-aquatic animal irl, except crabs, can swim or at least float on water. It's not possible to survive as a semi-aquatic animal without the ability to swim

[urban flax]

Because it would drown

[rare fractal]

Why would it drown, it can just walk out of the water

[urban flax]

Also there is literally 0 sense in disallowing spino to swim
Why on earth would justify that ? What makes spino so heavy and inadapted to living in water so it cannot swim, while every other theropod can ?

[urban flax]

So it needs to leave its environment every 5 minutes or so in order to not die from just being out ther,e living its spino life
And if there is already something like a pair of rexes or stegos on the shore, then spino either dies to them or drowns

Or if the coast is a little too steep ? Spino dies

[rare fractal]

I only see it as a good opportunity for balancing an animal that is very difficult to balance, we have weather manipulating mutants in this game so the science is borderline irrelevant

[urban flax]

It tries to cross a slightly too large body of water ? It dies

[urban flax]

Making sense is still relevant
I would have called bullshit too if utahs, with their current model and skin, were able to fly

[rare fractal]

Yes, it’s a land oriented semi aquatic, leaving the water every 5 or so minutes isn’t a problem. Especially with how much water there’s going to be on the map/already is. If you happened to go up for air on the 0.01% of the shoreline that has something that can threaten you that’s simply your fault

[rare fractal]

Current pounce is already a massive fuck you to physics, they’re already doing things that are logistically not possible

[gritty helm]

If spino literally cannot swim that just sounds like an artificial way to make it so Deino can logistically have a chance at escaping it

[urban flax]

Yes but what about having something that is both unrealistic, stupid and not justified ? You could say utah can pounce because it has strong legs
What would justfiy spino outright sinking and not being able to get back to the top of the water ?

[urban flax]

What if the guys on the shoreline have legs, and as such can follow you to prevent you from getting out of the water ?

[rare fractal]

You literally just need to stick your nose out of the water, not go for a jog

And again, you’re a goddamn spino, you have very few legitimate threats

[urban flax]

The ones I gave are enough
2 rexes
2 stegos
One trike could probably also do a good job at preventing you from reaching a shore

[rare fractal]

Well, no it’s moreso that they can latch onto the flank of an animal by pouncing their face

[urban flax]

I don't see how an unfinished mechanic correlates to an intended mechanic designed to ruin a playable

[teal parrot]

I can see justifying 1% damage from tip of tail, and 5% damage at base. 1% of damage from a large carnivore is still significant against much smaller targets. However, I’d only support that if there was no bleed stacking. But with stacking bleeds, tails are not immune to potentially lethal damage. Enough bites on a tail should stack up to fatal exsanguination. And for that reason, any kind of hit point damage to tails is not justified IMO. why? Because hp damage is effectively LETHAL or VITAL damage. And there’s no vital organs in tails or legs, save blood vessels.

[rare fractal]

How can they prevent you from reaching the shore, if the water is deep enough to the point where you’re just stick your nose out of the water there’s very little if anything those threats can do to you without you having more than enough time to dip.
Alternatively you could learn the shallower shores on the map to make the process even easier, it’s not much of a challenge

[rare fractal]

Well, for one they couldn’t pounce like that always, it’s only as recent as 3.5 that they could, doesn’t seem particularly unintentional. And this doesn’t ruin them, not even a little, every challenge you’ve presented is within the absolute worst case scenario, and even then, those challenges are negligible

[urban flax]

I agree, but try to think about it from a balance perspective. When it's bitten on the tail, an animal still reacts, and it still feels pain. Imagine a player trying to kill another animal by biting their tail (I know it's stupid) the other creature would react but never die. That would feel like a bug. In real life, the tail would have ended up being torn off, but this doesn't happen in the game, so having a tiny amount of damage applied to the tail is still the better option in my opinion. Just assume the dino died of pain, it can happen.

[rare fractal]

Yeah a lot of animals will go into shock from the pain before actually dying due to fatal injuries, it’s essentially the same effect functionally, the animal helplessly falls over

[urban flax]

When i'm talking about the fact making spino unable to swim is ruining it
And as for the pounce, if you assume teleporting is intended and final, I guess you also assume the fact it phases through the target half of the times is intended too ?

wrong channel

[rare fractal]

No, that’s a bug, teleporting to the flank of the animal is intended, they weren’t always able to do this and it was added on purpose to make pouncing easier

I don’t like that this is how pounce works, but that aspect is absolutely intended

[teal parrot]

Ok the simulation of tissue loss is a good point I think. Not the pain argument, as lizards and tons of animals lose their tails and they will never die from it. But a tiny amount of HP damage to compensate for the lack of reaction and tissue loss, that I accept. Your argument is very good.

[rare fractal]

I don’t share the same disdain for a permanent spino hippo walk

[urban flax]

I'm pretty sue that teleporting isn't definitive, because it's never been mentioned that utahs were able to teleporter
If anything, it may be a placeholder until they have an animation for it

[rare fractal]

It’s definitely a placeholder, I’m sure of that.
Regardless that doesn’t change anything about spinos aquatic limitations I’m advocating for being any less legitimate, other examples of things that shouldn’t take place exist in the game that aren’t placeholders, the precedent exists

[urban flax]

Even assuming it doesn't make it unviable, even considering spino could fare very well on land, being unable to swim still makes no sense
And would make it so players would simply not go into water, unless it's for crossing it

[rare fractal]

Why wouldn’t they, it gives them an ambush location and affords them protection from pretty much all terrestrial threats, it’s the environment they’re the safest in by far, I can’t imagine being unable to ascend or descend without the aid of a slope would detract from this, plus if you simply allow spinos to walk up any underwater slope no matter the incline whilst they use a different “climbing animation” at a certain angle, then they’ll never be threatened by their inability to get a breath

[urban flax]

Ambush ? How can you ambush something with a giant sail on your back AND needing to stay in shallow waters in order to not drown ? Sure, even hippo walking could go in deeper waters and make itself invisible, but doing so, it takes a high risk of drowning and will have a very limited time in that situation, that the least efficient way of ambushing I can imagine
Hiding in bushes would work way better

As for being safe... there's still the problem of oxygen. If you can breathe, then the water is shallow enough so you can walk in it and have your head emerged. If so, then a rex can do so a well. Great protection indeed.

And why should SPINO, of all things, be locked to shallow waters ? If spino doesn't go there, who would go into deep waters ?

[rare fractal]

Because being underwater, borderline invisible when fully submerged, affords you a much greater ambush window then running out of the tree line or in an open field, spino doesn’t need to be particularly good at ambushing, but it can still use it as a strategy just like literally all predators can.

I’m convinced you didn’t read what I wrote, I said that spino could have unrestricted access to shores with an additional underwater climb animation that plays when a certain incline is reached… you’re really stuck on them not being able to catch a breath when that isn’t even remotely an issue, or at least not one with a difficult fix.

Spino isn’t locked to shallow waters, I’m not sure what gives you that impression. It’s disadvantaged against other semis because of deep bodies of water since they could just swim above it, but that’d be apart of balancing spino and making it unique amongst the semis. This also aids justification for making spino stronger than a theoretical free swimming spino, since it has more limitations when in water and can this can be avoided by those who can swim freely

[urban flax]

If you can't breathe underwater and you can't swim, going into deep water is just a terrible idea, and I would never do such a mistake. Your only argument seems to be "balance out spino" while it isn't even out and there are plenty of other ways to balance it out without involving locking it under a mechanic that makes no sense.
You also haven't answered yet to my question, when I ask what in the world would justfiy spino being physically unable to swim.

It looks like it can swim (like every other theropod), it lives in water, it's part of a dino family that are known as good swimmers but... can't swim ? Because of magic I guess ?

[rare fractal]

Well I’m not concerned with the mechanical justification, inventing a bio mechanic that causes it to do this is entirely acceptable for a creature birthed from a magical copy machine. Especially with how separated it is in both niche and design from its irl counterpart. Not that I don’t care, I would prefer for that justification to make sense, but again I’m only really seeing it as from a design opportunity POV.
And no my only argument is not to “balance spino”. Balance is only relevant to that mechanic because it affords many new possibilities and factors to consider when balancing spino, not that it needs it to be balanced.
My primary argument is that rendering spino either a terrible swimmer than relies primarily on its hippo walk, or simply something incapable of swimming and solely hippo walks would make it much more unique than it would if spino could swim with high aptitude…. Which again, the compromise for it being a terrible swimmer that can still ascend and descend is totally fine as long as it’s severely held back as far as mobility, then relying on its hippo walk for quicker movements.

Applying additional limitations and variables to playables is what separates them from eachother, I’d prefer spinos only separation from bary or Sucho to not be its size

[urban flax]

So you're not saying spino should absolutely be disallowed to swim anymore ? Because that's my only grief
If it can surface, or simply move in water like any other dino could, there is no issue, but it's just that completely not allowing it to swim and forcing it to crawl at the bottom of water sounds and feels stupid.

[teal parrot]

I agree

[rare fractal]

Something sounding or feeling stupid is subjective, I can’t really use that when considering whether the mechanic is a good idea or not, because from my perspective it makes spino much more interesting, which is why I’ve primarily been taking the stance that it further partitions it from its smaller variants for it to have those kinds of limitations (basically I’m trying to remain objective), and as the largest apex carnivore in the game it having mobility constraints even within its optimal biome is fine….

Oh sry lol lemme change something

I missread

[urban flax]

It's beyond mechanic interest at this point. Disabling spino from swimming opens up for some possibilities, but it closes a lot more. And the reason I despise it so much is because it MAKES NO SENSE. Also since people call it "hippo walking" it carries the misconception that hippos can't swim, so it's a bit personal too.

[teal parrot]

Id personally prefer imposing greater mobility constraints OUTSIDE its natural biome, but giving it no mobility advantages within its natural biome. To me, just being apex is not enough of a pro to justify other PHYSICALLY unrealistic nerfs. Now, if the physical model of the creature justifies nerfing its swimming, im all for it.

[urban flax]

Unless spino is literally made of stone, I don't see it only walking on the bottom of the water making sense.

[rare fractal]

Well, on the topic of the hippo misconception, it just doesn’t. Hippos are one of the few animals on earth that can walk on the bottom of lakes or rivers because of their bone density, that doesn’t carry the baggage that hippos can’t swim, that only applies to incompetent braindead buffoons, which neither of us are. So on that topic I simply don’t care to entertain the idea that must cater to the lowest common dominator with my terminology.
Hippos are just famous for their ability to do this, if it makes you feel better we could just call it river walking or something along those lines, but hippo walking sound better to me ig
Anyway, enough with the tangent.

Can we just forget about disallowing spino from swimming and instead change it to the variant of the 2 we both prefer, which is it having poor swimming but incredible “river walking(hippo walking)”?
Just simplifies things so we can move past an idea we both aren’t a fan of anymore.

The whole idea of imposing limitations is to eliminate opportunities, I want to eliminate the opportunities shared by dinos that are very similar to make them more distinct, like bary Sucho and spino.
As the largest of the 3 and with the most muscular developed legs, it having a trade off like the one we’re discussing would aid in that. Aside from logistical issues, is that not something that would work?

[teal parrot]

As annoying as this sounds, I would be in favor of damage nerfs and buffs based on hunger and fear. So for example, a herbivore fighting against predators in a herd would get a damage resistance buff for every ally they are with, up to three allies, because its confident and they watch eachothers backs. But maybe it gets a damage buff when its outnumbered by predators, because its scared and fighting for its life.
And a carnivore gets a damage nerf if its stomach is more full than 75%, because hunger makes it more determined or something.
Stuff like that might make carnivores less dangerous when they are full, less powerful when full, and be better "nerfs" for apexes than stuff that impacts the playability and fun of the species.

[urban flax]

Yes
I can agree with spino not being a fast swimmer at all

[rare fractal]

The confidence those animals have should be expressed through the actions of the player, who gains confidence in greater numbers. There’s no need to aid that with a mechanic that separates your confidence from your playable avatar’s

[urban flax]

I've always been against this kind of buff/debuff, especially if they're tied to a dino's mental state
You're playing the kind, it's your mental state that matters. The dino doesn't feel anything. You do. And this kind of buffs would just be minmaxing and unimmersive mechanics
Being scared doesn't make your skin harder. It makes you continue running or fighting in situations where you would normally crumble, but that's it.
Being hungry doesn't make your teeth sharper, desperation just reduces your consideration and self-preservation so you become more ravenous. So no buffs.

[rare fractal]

If anything a fuller stomach should apply weight buffs and increase your stam, I wouldn’t in a million years want this but that’s the level of logistical adherence these kinds of mechanics imply, which I don’t think fits

[urban flax]

Yes
I'm glad we can finally have the same opinion on something

[rare fractal]

Well I adore consensus so me too lol
Although we kinda have an understanding in regards to spino, or at least I think

Terrible swimmer, terrific hippo, demon of the riverbed and steamroller of penguins

[teal parrot]

agree to a point but one thing thats wrong is that being scared makes you stronger. Animals have adrenaline too, and it makes a difference when fighting for ur life.
But one factor which you meantion i agree with, being confident doesnt make u toughter. thats realism. But this IS also a game as you pointed oout and there are things which sometimes can be simulated thru unrealistic mechanics.

[rare fractal]

The adrenaline the player experiences effects their reaction times whilst negatively effecting their judgment, this mechanic is already prevalent in a less arbitrary format irl through the player, it’s not needed and can easily lead to abuse of the mechanic

[urban flax]

There is also another side of the coin to it being a game. Balance. Randomly buffing or nerfing dinos because of a specific situation breaks balance and makes it a lot harder for something unnecessary. Games are always best when they stay simple.

[rare fractal]

Plus having reliable consistent stats is better for the players comprehension of their own capabilities

[teal parrot]

Also, human behavior and motivation in a game is very different from animal behavior and motivation. And people do horrible silly things like killing fields of prey for no reason. So artifical incentives or disincentives are useful in game mechanics to sort of mitigate the statistical liklihood of certain behabior.

[teal parrot]

ok i concede to the abuse argument that i hadnt considered.

[rare fractal]

Well, I wouldn’t necessarily agree, but I think what you mean is games are always best when the information the player has isn’t undermined or betrayed by the game. Suddenly you deal 50 less damage per bite and it messes up a strategy of yours, you didn’t necessary deserve that death because you were going off the information you’ve been made aware of throughout your playthrough

[urban flax]

Dinos are animals. They always hit as hard as they can because they have no mental blockers like us humans (it's real but I don't have time to explain this I'm gonna go to sleep). So no damage increase
Damage is based on literal body trauma, as you mentioned. Once your heart has been ripped out of your chest, no matter how much adrenaline you have in your veins, your body stops functioning and you die. The Isle isn't an anime.

[teal parrot]

True to a point but if the choice comes down to ruining the playabilty vs implementing a situation dependent nerf/buff, I think its better to go the situational route.

[rare fractal]

Ideas like yours sound incredibly interesting and cool, and in concept they are, but removing the players personality and input into their fate in a game as “hardcore” (as in literally no progress goes with you after death), I wouldn’t have such stat fluctuations throughout gameplay unless you were made aware of methods to prevent them from happening at all. Like how diets work.

[urban flax]

Thing is, the choice doesn't come down to this. There is always plenty of ways to balance out a playable or a situation without relying on this kind of artificial buffs.

[rare fractal]

Plus this leads to the precedent that allows for a players max health to change based on how full their stomach is, which s just… no

[urban flax]

Now I'm getting off to sleep, as much as I'd have liked to continue this conversation further, I should have been gone more than one hour ago. See you guys, and good night. Or day. Or morning. Depends on your timezone I guess.

[teal parrot]

No animals dont always hit as hard as they can, I can back this up with real world data. Snakes for example. Rattle snakes judge their prey and inject only enough venom for the kill. Unless they are babies. Other predators like big cats modify their behavior based on hunger. For example, predators ignore prey if they are full, but may pursue prey even at extreme peril to their lives if they are starving.

[teal parrot]

Good talk!

[teal parrot]

youre right. Nix the confidence idea.

[rare fractal]

But seriously thanks for the discussion, a decent conversation in here is rare, it’s always an assemblage of vague platitudes or assertions that are just assumed to be universally understood… it’s so damn annoying so thanks for the welcome refreshment

[teal parrot]

I agree about full disclosure and players knowing whats up. I stand by my idea for nerfing carnivore damage when they are full.

[teal parrot]

yeah back atcha mate!

[queen ember]

@blissful flame U5 has really only been 3 months of full development. January was their break and February was basically an entire month dedicated to a patch

[plush rampart]

@icy lion I don't understand why that was deleted, it was commentary on the game and its condition. Not me trying to make the devs aware of a bug I'm sure they're well aware of.

[icy lion]

It was a snarky, non-constructive comment about fatal errors existing.

If you'd like to help the devs find the issue, please report any information you have in #🐞-evrima-bug-reports-🐞

[plush rampart]

I didn't realize feedback had to meet a certain criteria... if that's the case then "general feedback" is hardly an appropriate name for the channel

[stuck latch]

I believe once a good amount of playables are in the game and servers swap over from legacy issue like that will be solved

[tight oxide]

think if a carnivore was hungry it would just attack quicker instead of stronger?

since it would be more crazed

though i dont think being hungry would make you stronger compared to a healthy hunger bar

[stuck latch]

The issues you are talking about are just survival game norms, i like server rules because they make it much more realistic but until the game has a bigger playable base and players move over we just gotta play with what we got

[teal parrot]

I agree, what I was thinking about was that hunger will give you a will to kill. Take a cat for example. Ive watched my cats play with rats and lizards when they are full vs hungry. When they are full, they play and paw and bite, but dont break the skin, they just bat them around harmlessly. Terrifies the rats, but they dont appear to have interest in killing them. But once they get hungry, the game changes. They REALLY bite, and their claws come out. The rats bleed. its a mess. And then once they have terrorized them enough, they finally give a killing bite and chow down on it. So i was thinking about a damage nerf for when carnivores are full, to express a kind of instinctual unwillingness to do harm unless hungry.

[tight oxide]

But what about basing this idea on birds and other reptiles instead of cats? Since I dont think dinosaurs exactly have the minds to play with prey when face to face

Even then I think a dinosaur would still go all out if its in danger

Like even if you were fully filled on hunger, you would still fight for your life if you were face to face with such a thing

[teal parrot]

the other guys made some good points about not trying to overly control players with game mechanics, and that a players adrenaline etc has all the combat influence thats indicated. and I agree. to a degree. but I also think that instincts control ALL creatures, regardless of what we think or feel, so i imagine instinct is a decent justification for SOME situation based mechanics.

[tight oxide]

But wouldnt that be pretty abusable?

Like you being at a disadvantage because some other player was hungry while you were full?

[teal parrot]

Yes and dinos were apparently bird/reptile hybrids according to how they appear to me. lol but I observe the same behavior from reptiles and birds too. very few animals, including snakes, seem to have a will to do harm unless they are hungry.

[tight oxide]

But notice when they are in danger
they go all out if they can

[teal parrot]

yea for sure. Thats how it works in the wild too tho. A hungry animal may take GREAT risks to kill and eat, while a non hungry animal often just tries to get away.
But You can make the point that such a mechanic would encourage a kind of "feature creep", where an injured animal instantly loses their hunger damage nerf. And it could get complicated and convoluted.

[candid mulch]

Just seen a statement from one of the devs on a vid.I can give it to you if you want

[candid mulch]

I can link video of a statement from one of the devs

[tight oxide]

But since this is a game... Players may just go out of their way to kill you even if you try running
Also it just isnt fun or fair to have to run from someone your size or same species just because they delayed their hunting
Also adding such a mechanic to avoid this would just make the original reason of adding the whole hunger buff useless

I mean also wouldnt this be very unfair for apexes to abuse?

Like just go Rex and get that hunger buff to kill

Also imagine running from a slightly smaller Rex as a full grown Rex just because you got the damage nerf...

[teal parrot]

yeah. ur right. Id just rather people had an incentive to run and not fight, or wait to fight till they are hungry. BTW im not suggesting a damage buff when hungry. Im suggesting it for carnivores only. A normal damage when ur hungry, but damage nerf when you get full. I said over 75% at first, maybe over 85%.
Humans like to fight no matter what. but being a carnivore, and being at a disadvantage might make carnivore gameplay less mindless and meaninglessly chompy.

[teal parrot]

yea totally I imagine that happening too. I like that it conveys a need to get out of there cuz u would rather fight at full power, as opposed to just always being rough and ready to rip the heads off of everyone.

[tight oxide]

I know what you meant, I just worded as you would be buffed compared to a full hunger player. Also I dont think thats the way to go about making Carnivore gameplay less mindless since the issue is also for Herbivores seeing as they dont have to compete for plants and can go ham. I would say when we get more mechanics that makes you have more things to lose thats when you would want to avoid 24/7 pvp

[tight oxide]

I mean nothing stops you from doing the same thing as people do now just lower hunger

[teal parrot]

But another problem i can see with the idea is, how would you know if someone who is attacking you is hungry or not? I guess it might not matter to some ppl but would def matter to others

[teal parrot]

by puking?

[tight oxide]

I mean you could do that... or just not go to 100% hunger after eating

[teal parrot]

yea ur probably totally right. lol

[tight oxide]

I mean I think devs want to implement skinner looking models for starving dinosaurs

[teal parrot]

oh yea for sure. And it would provide a meaningful reason NOT to gorge. Like, you would have survival decisions to make. Do I gorge, or not gore, to stay ready for facing threats? Thats actaully a big problem with the game. survival elements are way to meta. Very little dynamic factors which require creative decision making for survival.

But like you said, i think ur right, once more goals get implemented it will change how people play, as long as the goals are good. Like, playing as a carnivore that only hunts to eat u wanna get perks for that role. and u have benefits and negatives but u gotta play a certain lifestyle to earn them. or if u wanna play an aggressive carno, etc. same thing.

[tight oxide]

Thing is... there would never be a reason to be full lol

Plus I think perks might also make one avoid dying for sure

[teal parrot]

hmmm yeah thats true... under the current metabolism trash we have, it would be noting but a disincentive to fill up with no meaningful pro. I mean, filling up to get a full stomach of food is a pro but not meaningful enough huh?

[tight oxide]

bingo

Unless there are more benefits to getting full hunger I dont see a good reason to be weaker for being full

[teal parrot]

BUT! If we had a gorging mechanic for carnivores, which allowed eating a LOT of extra food, at the cost of some agility stats and stamina burn...

[tight oxide]

wouldnt be worth it

[teal parrot]

THAT would be useful. If you happen to be a pack carnivore like the Utah, and you have a safe place to rest, yeah its veryy worth it

[tight oxide]

ummm

Utah relies on stamina and agility?

Not the best example ngl

Also being able to hold more food isnt exactly a good enough benefit

[teal parrot]

or even if ur just a solo carnivore, but you just have a very safe hiding spot to rest and grow, gorging would be invaluable. Eat waay more meat from a kill than you should, and guarantee not having to hunt again or worry about carcass despawn. Also its a huge benefit for getting perfect diet.

[teal parrot]

Like if I eat enough of one type of meat, and then find another diet item, I have to wait to eat it till i have room. and it goes so slow. Gorging gives the option, if you feel ur safe, to go ahead and eat ur fill of that diet item, pay the cost in being sluggist till its digested, and take the calculated risk of being at a combat disadvantage if you get jumped.

[tight oxide]

Whats stops you from eating one diet item a bit and leaving space for the next one you will find

[teal parrot]

Needing to fill the diet item up. Happens to me all the time. I need to switch biomes to hunt for a different diet item. By the time I find what I’m looking for, I’ve burned thru my first diet item. So if I can gorge one item before switching biomes to search for another type, I always do.

[tight oxide]

your nutrient bar can go to 300% iirc tho... so...

[teal parrot]

Yes. But ur stomach can’t.

[tight oxide]

your nutrients drain slower than hunger bar

[teal parrot]

So if you need to get to 200% on a nutrient, it takes a long time. That’s one useful thing about gorging. You could eat much more food, pay the sluggish penalty, and it’s all good.
ALSO, which would you prefer, to immediately puke and get sick if you eat a LITTLE too much, or immediately get gorged and sluggish? I mean yeah puking is cool if you go over ur gorge limit.

[tight oxide]

I just see gorging cons out weighing the pros no matter what
I mean if you are a in survival world you always want to be at your best since you could always be ambushed or attacked

[tight oxide]

I mean I never really had trouble getting 3 nutrients but then again I play carnivore

[teal parrot]

Yes but no factor. Ur still sitting around unable to fill up on available food, waiting to digest. Then you might get frustrated cuz someone else eats it while ur waiting, or it despawns.

[tight oxide]

At the same time you are using gorging as a way to fix an issue with a diet system that will be getting changed...

[teal parrot]

Oh? What’s that?

[tight oxide]

Well for one gore will change carnivore diets heavily
two devs iirc confirmed that diets as a whole will be getting changes here and there (hopefully mostly for Herbivores)

[teal parrot]

Naw there are no gorging cons. I mean, if you puke, ur dealing with a con. If you get fractured, you got a con. So yeah getting gorged is a con but it’s one you can choose to avoid, and if you have an eating accident, it’s a better con than throwing up. Which is a big pro.

[tight oxide]

Having reduced agility and speed is a con
factures are debuffs
puke is a debuff
both arent suppose to have any pros unlike gorging is suppose to have?

[teal parrot]

Yea they aren’t gonna change anything meaningful. I’d almost put money on it. These guys don’t have a good compass in their heads for fun gameplay mechanics. Fun to them is annoyances.

[teal parrot]

Reduced agility is a rebuff.

[tight oxide]

Not really... They really only messed up on diets I would say
everything else seems to be good choices (except the playables dinosaurs)

like new movement is fun

Unless you like assriding?

or the (normally) better hitboxes

[tight oxide]

rebuff? what

[teal parrot]

I know you don’t see this, but mechanics options like the option to gorge are what makes survival games fun. It’s part of the trade off for utility model. You need a reason to not always eat more than 100% stomach volume or 100% means nothing. But you also want the ability to SOMETIMES stretch ur limits for tactical reasons. Having the ability to gorge maybe an extra 50% would also make the existing puking penalties feel more fair. Because taking the risk to gorge, if you over gorge, lands you in a worse position than if you hadn’t been greedy; ur sick and ur food and water are at 50%. So pretty much in every way, it’s a good gameplay mechanic.

[teal parrot]

Oops sorry typo. Lol means Debuff. Autocorrect actually. I spelled debuff but the damn computer thinks it knows better.

[tight oxide]

But I said reduced agility is a debuff-

[teal parrot]

“Having reduced agility and speed is a con
factures are debuffs
puke is a debuff
both arent suppose to have any pros unlike gorging is suppose to have?”

I thought you were saying it’s a con, not a debuff. Sorry i misunderstood.

[tight oxide]

But isnt your point of having gorging to deal with one of the diet system issues?

I kinda wanna say to see how diets are "finalized" before gorging

[tight oxide]

Oh its fine just meant how it was a con compared to the pros of gorging

Dont get me wrong though gorging sounds interesting

[teal parrot]

Yes. I think it deals with several issues.
One of them is what we talked about but there are others too.
The problem is that devs don’t want a sensible diet system, they like their over simplified unrealistic and problematic system. Gorging is an idea that would fit in to their existing BS diet system, but would alleviate a lot of the issues with it.

[tight oxide]

wanna see what I had as an idea to rework the diet system?

[teal parrot]

YES

[tight oxide]

#general-feedback-discussion message

[barren zephyr]

@lean escarp I couldn't agree more with you. Yesterday, me a smol little Teno just travelled along the dam just for a Pachy to attack me without any reason. Sure "it's a survival game, you get killed" but... Man.

[tiny compass]

Related to the recent video with the physics, why the hit/push box is still not in the head, why the head has to go thru the gate/wall?

[teal parrot]

@near tiger door pushing?

[near tiger]

look in Isle-Phase-Two!

[frail sigil]

That feedback is fine, but please remember to read each channel description and pins before posting, as these guidelines are stated

[icy lion]

That was not what their comment was referring to, either

[severe idol]

The mindset with the rule is to keep the screenshot channels similar to being a gallery.

[icy lion]

They posted an image in #spiro-screenshots with text. The channel description explicitly states that text is not allowed. Hence, their post was removed

[severe idol]

For any questions or concerns with rules, tag the Senior Administrators instead. We wrote them. (Rule 3)

[mellow maple]

@barren zephyr You had to use the worst fucking Giga design I've seen Lmao

I get ur point tho.

[barren zephyr]

It was just the first decent gif that popped up under "Dino fight" that represented posturing, also I figured since some people are hype about the movie it might grab attention to the suggestion

[mellow maple]

I gotchu

[stoic epoch]

Hmmm. . Advertisement Strats. .

Interesting.

[barren zephyr]

https://tenor.com/view/think-about-it-use-your-brain-use-the-brain-think-brain-gif-7914082

People react to movment, visual images and video and pretty colors. Just gotta figure out what works best for you

[stoic epoch]

However, this does not help the fact that you played World of Tanks for 22 Hours.

[cunning anvil]

tfw you wrote a feedback so hyped and confident
realize it has a major flaw
delet

[drifting rose]

@slim thunder thats an ability that was teased in compy art... it was a few compies cleaning a deinos teeth also what ptera trust a deino they legit on there diet why would they go in its mouth (pause) to clean it

[drifting rose]

affect less semi aquas... wdym ? i was talking bout compy concept lol

ohhh wait are u reffering to my suggestion??

[drifting rose]

oh well it makes sense for semi aquatics to be able to sniff in rain because there natural environment are places like swamps and rivers n other wet places so they are already use to water interfering with there scent seeing as they live in it so it makes sense that water while still affecting them doesnt affect them as much giving them the ability to sniff during storms it wouldnt be a huge sniff radius but a fair size

[proven river]

[drifting rose]

this guy gets it^^^

[limber hull]

@topaz palm cool concept, me likey

[topaz palm]

tyty!

[limber hull]

@placid iron Z walk reduces bleed rate, increases stam regen and allows for quieter movements on animals that can't crouch

[topaz palm]

Precise positioning can also be very useful when you're climbing, Z-walk doesn't really need any extra flair to be functionally useful imo

[urban flax]

Haast eagle is back

[limber hull]

@barren zephyr since its pretty obvious you are against corpse guarding, how exactly do you believe it should be addressed in a way that doesn't create far more problems than it fixes?

currently, you can literally just leave and find another food source or just wait for the herbi to get bored and leave. I have yet to see a single "fix" for corpse guarding that doesn't make it extremely easy to abuse herbis without anything they can do about it

[barren zephyr]

I made the suggestion that they could add debuffs but they wouldn't take effect on herbies around nests or herbi food. Also you could make it so the effects are more harmful the closer you are to a body, but also go away quickly. So herbies could escape and debuffs go down fast because they're not guarding the corpse, but if they run back to attack and guard it they would just go back up when they get close to the person eating allowing the (most likely injured) person to fight back more effectively.

It can be tuned to work and be balanced, but whenever I give a counter to peoples questions and find solutions I feel people just disagree to disagree. They would rather just ignore it and say "oh its not a problem" because they don't care or don't wanna put in the effort to find a solution. Even when half of people who have voted on my poll so far see it as a problem and bad for the game. Its clearly an issue.

If you or anyone has questions feel free to ask

[limber hull]

it just seems like it'd be awful to
A: Be in a fight and have to constantly move away from a potentially advantageous spot because now the debuff radius has spawned
B: Have carnivores use meat to grant an advantage in a fight by applying debuffs
C: Have herbis CONSTANTLY smell the air for meat incase they accidentally step over a corpse and suffer the consequences
D: Have things like stego and trike, which impale animals on their main weapons, also be debuffed from said animals

[jovial hazel]

Just because people don't like something doesn't make it inherently "bad for the game". In this case I would agree with you. Unfortunately this dead horse has been beaten so many times before. There's just not a "good" solution yet.

[barren zephyr]

"A: Be in a fight and have to constantly move away from a potentially advantageous spot because now the debuff radius has spawned" - I don't see how herbies moving 25-50 feet or so (just an example bc the radius doesn't need to be big) away from a body is worse then killing a pachy as a utah or carno just to have a fat stego run up on it and stand over it just so you can't eat it. Keep in mind going away doesn't do anything, people mostly die in areas around hotspots like NW, swamp wall, etc. So herbies camp up there and will run down to guard the corpse again if they see you trying to eat it.

"B: Have carnivores use meat to grant an advantage in a fight by applying debuffs" - How many bodies are you really expecting carnivores to drop here? I don't see what your point is. Need to explain it better.

"C: Have herbis CONSTANTLY smell the air for meat incase they accidentally step over a corpse and suffer the consequences" - They should be doing that in general to avoid danger, but again the amount of corpses isn't high. Its not like you find one every 2 feet so this really isn't a issue.

"D: Have things like stego and trike, which impale animals on their main weapons, also be debuffed from said animals" - Not related, has nothing to do with guarding corpses or this topic.

[barren zephyr]

Thats because people just argue for the sake of it instead of actually working to find a solution, because thats how the culture is irl rn.

[jovial hazel]

I could go through post history and find you so many examples of people giving ideas to combat it. Then just as many shooting those ideas down. I don't know how long you've been around, but this idea is nowhere near new.

Not to downplay your thought process. It's worth thinking about.

[barren zephyr]

Cool but I would like to debate mr cerato here or whoever about it

Idc if it hasn't worked before I wanna try

[jovial hazel]

Yeah, he's probably been a big part of the many conversations before about it.

[barren zephyr]

Because I actually care about the game

[limber hull]

i still think its a problem already solvable by just finding something else to eat or just waiting for the herbi to leave. I haven't experienced it much at all as of late

But I do most of my hunting outside of the main hotspots so there's that

[barren zephyr]

This isn't a good response, all it is imo is "this issue is too complex so I think we should just ignore that its an issue and tell people to go somewhere else" without even thinking about someone who is starving. As of right now sure you can go find something else to eat, but we already know its not always going to be like that later down the road, its going to be harder to find food at some point

[limber hull]

It's rare I see body guarding, and when I do, it's rarely an issue for me since I can just find something else till the herbis get bored and leave

[limber hull]

how is it possibly going to be harder when AI dinos and other such easy food sources are planned?

[barren zephyr]

"Keep in mind going away doesn't do anything, people mostly die in areas around hotspots like NW, swamp wall, etc. So herbies camp up there and will run down to guard the corpse again if they see you trying to eat it. "

Like i said before

[limber hull]

If anything, carnivore meals are going to be even easier

[barren zephyr]

The predators are going to get bigger and have bigger need for food as well

Plus there will be a lot more of them

[limber hull]

same playercount tho

[barren zephyr]

Even now when a server is full AI doesn't always spawn great

[limber hull]

unless that decides to be changed

[limber hull]

boars are literally everywhere in my experience

and those guys provide great food for all species

[barren zephyr]

Well the other day I had to log out multiple times because I couldn't find fish as Deino, I swam all the way from NW to center multiple times and there was nothing

Its not the only case either

[limber hull]

i fail to see what that has to do with corpse guarding tho, that's just poor fortune

[barren zephyr]

This issue is mainly focused at when you kill someone in a populated area like NW, center, swamp wall, etc tenos, stegos, etc all will camp the body if given the chance

[barren zephyr]

It was in regards to your comment about AI spawns

[limber hull]

either that or they were already there to begin with and don't want to move

not everyone is out of their way to be malicious

[barren zephyr]

running over 100 feet from the rock to stand on the corpse is corpse guarding

Not just not wanting to move

[limber hull]

idk, i just dislike the idea of say, a group of pachies, weak, huddling on a rock, surrounded by carnos. Some carno hauls a dead pachy they killed from the herd near the rocks and all the pachies are either forced to leave and die or punished against their will

[barren zephyr]

Okay but how often would that happen vs corpse guarding that (while it may not happen to you all the time) happens to many people a lot of the time.

Plus keep in mind the debuffs don't need to cause any damage, they're just debuffs, if the carnos can't reach them on the rock then dragging a body over there will do nothing if they just wait. Same as if there was no debuffs and carnos just waited for the pachys to starve, get thirsty or they decided to leave.

[limber hull]

what WOULD be fair debuffs, anyway?

[barren zephyr]

I didn't think I would get this far since so far people just throw the topic under the bus before it gets here anyway.

But off the top of my head I think reductions in damage, maybe attack speed, etc could work. But I think the devs would come up with a good solution if they tried as well.

[limber hull]

and see, there's issues like, a bunch of utahs dropping chunks before every fight with a pachy, for example

[barren zephyr]

Just make it apply to bodies not chunks

[limber hull]

so i grab a bunch of juvis

or rabbits

or chickens

[barren zephyr]

that would take a long time, also good luck doing that

Its about making it not appealing to body guard

No solution will ever totally stop it

[limber hull]

this is a video game, people can and WILL find ways to abuse it in fights

[barren zephyr]

Its just to make it harder then "oh let me run and camp this body to be a dick"

Also for realism sake its not normal for a herbi to camp a body anyway in this sense, unless their baby died then it would spend a few minutes registering its dead before moving on. Even then it wouldn't come back afterwards

[barren zephyr]

Everyone uses that excuse for any argument

Regardless of the topic

Its also true, but my point here is to make it less appealing to camp the body, not stop it entirely

Do you have anymore questions or concerns?

[runic steppe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXWogwy5WOs

@thorn grail

[lone ember]

One last thing, because people bargained in on our discussion.
What are solutions to these problems, how would you avoid situational things like this,
because just walking away is often easier said than done. (I hope you can read the stuff)

[barren zephyr]

Just a sec and I will give it a look

[rare fractal]

@duder#7625 I can’t even see a reason why deino of all things would need/have a quick recovery…. The only thing I could possibly see stunning it are Anky, Shant, and the greater Sauropods…. If you’ve been hit by ANY of those as a deino you deserve death….

None of those are targets you should go for as a croc, and none of those targets are even remotely difficult to avoid

[barren zephyr]

Firstly would like to say its pretty awesome that you drew all this up and actually seem to care about the subject XD, this is perfect and the kinda debate I wish we could have on all kinds of issues to find solutions to stuff people don't like without making the game worse.

As for the first part on the left hand side, where the body is picked up and moved to the bleeding herbie. You could perhaps make it so debuffs don't happen for corpses that have recently been picked up or dragged, because I don't think herbies can pick up bodys? can they? If they can you could always remove that option because I don't see the need for it. Which would stop carnivores from abusing it in that way by dragging bodies close.

Now for the part about drinking from rivers with corpses, that could be problematic. I could just say "oh well go drink somewhere else" but then I would be no different then the people who act like corpse guarding isn't an issue. So I will say thats a complicated one and I would like to brainstorm together to find a solution if you would like to.

Lastly the part where dinos are stuck on rocks, I talked about this with Mr cerato in that say a group of small herbies were being trapped up there by carnos the debuffs wouldn't make a difference. Simply because you can outwait the carnos the same way you would without corpses around or alternatively carnos don't need debuffs or corpses to aid them because they could just wait at the bottom of the rock until the herbies starved or ran out of water.

So whenever one of those things happen the herbies would simply have to die on the rock or make a run for it, which if they made a run for it none of the debuffs would effect them much because they would wear off quickly right once they got out of range.

Edit: Also just noticed the part where I mentioned herbies dragging bodies, it wouldn't matter even if it was a thing, so just ignore that.

[rough hemlock]

I’m considering making a suggestion about adding seasons to the game but I don’t know if they’re planned or not. Does anyone know anything about if the devs have considered adding seasons?

[lone ember]

First off all, I simply want this to go through and both sides having a clear understanding.

1. Herbivores cannot drag corpses, which is good. Adding Timers is a finicky thing, so sometimes with drawn out fights and plenty of Players dropping during it,
   it could also become problematic (Stego v. 9 Utahs, Utah's die, Buff applies, Stego cannot move, it has been pounced to often and would bleed out and the Utah's cannot eat other Utah's)

2. I really don't see a solution, there will be more aquatic and semi-aquatic Dinos added, that could abuse this, by dragging corpses on purpose into the water or Deinos carrying them around to have better combat. (Don't wanna brainstorm on it, since my solution is kind of at leave it where it is, as it is not currently a problem outside of hot-spots / I am on the side of fake indifference

3. Indeed, stuck on a Rock is a horrible situation and they often can only log out, but making a run for it against Carnos is rather,,, hard, at least at the moment.

I just wanted you to show that a Debuff system would not work and the water Dinosaur Point I made, was a bit double sided, because indeed the Dinosaur could just try drinking somewhere else, which is why I added onto that in Point 2. and explain it a bit more.
I currently do not see a system that would not be abuse-able, it would just switch sides from 'Herbivore sided' to Carnivore sided and would leave it as it is.
(Unless major balance changes come late on, but I will not think so, in the end this is a survival game and it's about being smarter than the people around you, be vigilant and to find solution to problems you encounter, which not always have to be solved by the game itself, it might not be 'realistic' but my brain isn't the same size of a Utah or a Tenonto and I will play in the most rewarding way for myself, at the cost of others)

[drifting rose]

ik right ill sugfgest it again when update 8 rolls around

[barren zephyr]

"1. Herbivores cannot drag corpses, which is good. Adding Timers is a finicky thing, so sometimes with drawn out fights and plenty of Players dropping during it," - Can you explain how a timer would be finicky? When it came to the dragging thing I was just saying that if a carnivore picked up a body to move it closer to a sitting dinosaur thats bleeding to give it a debuff you could just make it so the debuff doesn't happen for x number of time (maybe 2-3 minutes) so they can't abuse it like that.

"it could also become problematic (Stego v. 9 Utahs, Utah's die, Buff applies, Stego cannot move, it has been pounced to often and would bleed out and the Utah's cannot eat other Utah's)" - I could see this being problematic for sure, do you have any ideas on how to fix it or would like to brainstorm for a solution? You don't have to, I'm just offering.

"2. I really don't see a solution, there will be more aquatic and semi-aquatic Dinos added, that could abuse this, by dragging corpses on purpose into the water or Deinos carrying them around to have better combat. (Don't wanna brainstorm on it, since my solution is kind of at leave it where it is, as it is not currently a problem outside of hot-spots / I am on the side of fake indifference " - Ah, well okay, its fine if you don't see it as an issue. I just think many people do find it an issue and for the time being we can wait and see if the game changes, but if not way down the road or if it gets worse (with say shant or very powerful herbies) it might be an issue that actually needs addressing. Which at that point I'm more than happy to brainstorm and come up with solutions for any issues if you or anyone would like to

[lone ember]

1. 2-3 Minutes is a good Timer in general, but sometimes fights can be really drawn out and to move that even futher up would at some point feel like it didn't even exist in the first place. Or perhaps one of the group attempts to drag the corps away from an actual guarding Herbi, so now the timer is up and the Debuff doesn't take place or perhaps there even is a mixpacking group abusing this.

2. I again see no real fix that can be implemented and would still see it fit to just leave it out.

3. Perhaps it would be a good solution, if you are with groups, to show them ways to avoide the corps guarding, going away for a few minutes and letting everything settle or go for AI, so more people can find a solution around the problem.
   Also not to forget is that more powerful Carnivores will be added to and give these bored Herbivores a challenge or they will simply be more interested in nesting

@barren zephyr

[barren zephyr]

I will reply later!!

[lone ember]

kk!

[marsh valley]

Can anyone tell my why when I try to get on the isle legacy it says failed to start the isle

[rare fractal]

@barren zephyr Bodygaurding is a necessary evil, it’s functionally identical to a larger more powerful carni stealing your kill, if not much more lenient since the herbi can’t eat the body.

If bodyguarding is such an issue for the animal that you’re playing, then you’re probably not playing an animal that suits your specifications, play a larger more powerful animal that preys upon smaller targets so that bodyguarding from larger threats becomes less common.
Perhaps leave the area and come back after they leave.
Perhaps don’t engage in fights that would rope in animals capable of bodygaurding, you should absolutely have to assess the region and the local playerbase for potential threats before making hunts anyway, if you didn’t do this well enough and your body is stolen from you by a larger carni or guarded by a herbi, fight them off it, wait for them to get bored, appear to leave, or consider it a failed hunt.

It’s a challenge that if mechanically disabled by causing proximity debuffs would result in FAR more grieving than it’s worth, you can delete all progress made by a herbi player on their nest of eggs by dropping a body on top of it.
You can also strategically drop corpses near herbis during a hunt to force them to move…. This is absurd

Asking a player to leave a quite possibly rare point of advantage because their animal is arbitrarily too scared of a dead body combat would DRASTICALLY CHANGE

Especially for animals reliant on terrain advantages

[barren zephyr]

1. 2-3 Minutes is a good Timer in general, but sometimes fights can be really drawn out and to move that even futher up would at some point feel like it didn't even exist in the first place. Or perhaps one of the group attempts to drag the corps away from an actual guarding Herbi, so now the timer is up and the Debuff doesn't take place or perhaps there even is a mixpacking group abusing this. " - Yeah I could see where mixpackers could make it so the debuff gets removed, though we wouldn't be able to tell much with that yet because I think the devs are going to be doing something about mixpacking. Either way you make great points of why it wouldn't be easy to implement which I appreciate, hope at some point people can find a solution or maybe the game just changes and people don't do it as much anymore. Who knows.

"Also not to forget is that more powerful Carnivores will be added to and give these bored Herbivores a challenge or they will simply be more interested in nesting" - Yeah hopefully big carnivores can do something about it, maybe at some point there will just be so much to do in the game that its not really anything to worry about anymore, I can only hope XD

[lone ember]

I would also very much agree with Criminal Fluff for my own personal Opinion,
as the previously made points where more from a point of understanding.

[barren zephyr]

I get it no worries

[slim thunder]

If the deino had some benefit from it, it would refrain from doing it maybe

[last lily]

. . .I'm certain the parasite picker idea has been suggested before for Pteranodon, and I'm just going to say it.. Parasite pickers are better off as AI, and something "optional", that's more so top off stats, instead of a necessary objective. It could also be done with Compy, but this would require both: more competent, complex AI, and a reason to spend time, money and resources on this(particularly microraptor, since it'd be needing a model, rig, textures and animations).. It'd add potential immersion and world building but gameplay wise.. ..ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh?? Nice idea on principle at least, so I will give that at least; the environment really does need to feel more alive.

I don't really like the idea of elder being blocked off by it either; should check out I THINK it was Waverpool's idea on Elder's being inevitable, just that the quality of it differs. Don't quote me on that, it probably could've very well been someone else who suggested that idea that death to old age will come.

[candid mulch]

@hollow belfry I put a check and X because it’s a good idea but some parts I disagree.All Dino’s shouldn’t get bacteria and stuff as they grow BUT maybe when they have to go through dirty water, stay around carcass too long, basically stuff like that

[hollow belfry]

It's just a conceptual idea. I only said microraptor, so that it would not be confused for a compy or troodon at first glance. And with that micro raptor has its own abilities.

But my thought was if you found your way to hidden or great falls where a lot of players congregate (Yes I know that is v3 legacy) and there are a couple players there as parasite pickers moving from Dino to Dino and grooming them. Maybe giving them temporary health buffs, or some other benefit.
Will those large carnivores eat them or lay down for them to be groomed. Does that open up those bigger dinos to attack? Lots of risk to give or receive a grooming but also reward for both.

I don't see it as a super popular Dino to play. But it's something outside the normal playstyles.

I would love to see what other ideas folks could come up with for the parasite picker.

[last lily]

I don't really know.. I will admit, Microraptor IS a cool animal, but I feel like that sometimes, it's better to just let things be a little simpler and serve the environment more than anything. Think something along the lines of Red Dead Redemption 2, or Monster Hunter World with various critters in the environment, that don't necessarily play a huge part in the game mechanics but still aid in the visuals and immersion. I wouldn't mind having little birds or other critters land on resting dinosaurs in-game sometimes, and clean them(on a visual level. Gameplay wise, not much is really happening, outside of the Ai and what not making decisions).

Something simple, but still helps to make things feel more alive without being overly complicated. Also side note: would be kind of cool to see them scatter or fly away when startled, when either their ride gets up abruptly, starts sprinting, or makes a loud call(broadcast, threaten or alert/help in particular), or when their ride takes damage.