general-feedback-discussion

[rancid raptor]

the pachy weighs more than the quetz, or as much. it's logical for the quetz not to do too much damage with a peck

[cyan flame]

Depends on where on the pachy it pecks, and if we're talking a basic peck or maybe some kind of "spear lunge" ability. But assuming ability, I could see it oneshot an omni on the head, so that'd be 300 for the base damage, if omni keeps 1.5 head multiplier.

True enough. But since he is curious on how quetz might end up, I don't really see any issue in talking about it. And most people seem to be inclined to think a quetz should be able to do more than just kill babies (since everyone wants ptera to kill babies).

[rancid raptor]

quetz will not be able to do too much damage to something weighing as much as it, come on now. If anything, the quetz will be afraid of landing anywhere near a pachy or omni.

If it gets pounced, it's byebye. If its fragile ass gets slammed, ti's byebye

[cyan flame]

You keep saying that. You really need to stop thinking that your idea, especially for a game, is the only one that's somehow valid. If the devs want to, they'll make the quetz oneshot rexes. Not that I think that would ever happen, but it could be done.

[rancid raptor]

This will be the case and if you deny it you'll get clowned 2 years from now

[cyan flame]

And yes, I could see the fight going either way for omni or pachy vs quetz. If it gets the jump on them and spears them, they die. If they avoid it they can turn around and retaliate. That still means a quetz can kill them, just that it has to be careful and make sure they don't get a chance to turn it around.

[rancid raptor]

Personally

Oh yeah so quetz will oneshot pachy? That's your hypothesis?

[cyan flame]

With all due respect, I'm not exactly concerned about you coming back in two years to be a clown, after all, I'm getting quite used to you already.

[rancid raptor]

Your hypothesis is so unbelievably illogical

[cyan flame]

I did not say that. Nor do I think it would one shot (since unlike omni, pachy has a lower multiplier on head, so hitting it there would obviously do less).

[cyan flame]

But yours that they would design quetz to not be able to take off from flat ground and having to find a cliff isn't?

[sage yew]

I wouldn't take it as a fact, but as a matter of mechanics, it doesn't sound bad

Assuming that Quetz are quit dangerous, it would limit them staying near cliff sides, with a high risk factor going somewhere else

[cyan flame]

It would also make it almost impossible for them to actually hunt anything, or even scavenge, unless things either A; stayed very near their cliffs, or B; there were cliffs everywhere so they could take off almost everywhere anyway. I don't really see either of those options as that likely.

[feral solstice]

What’s going on now lol

[sage yew]

A mechanic or a principle would be needed, to make a reason for players to go there non the less

otherwise the whole map would be basically Quetz territory and this could be quite unpleasant as well. At least I wouldn't throw of that clif flight idea

[south chasm]

This is the EU experience, every server full, rinse and repeat constantly attempting to join

[cyan flame]

Yep. Just keep trying, you'll get in eventually!

[sage yew]

sssssh, it's normal

[south chasm]

Queue system, and or increase server size

[cyan flame]

There is a queue system, it just... does what it wants most of the time, and most of the time what it wants is to not work properly :p

[sage yew]

then you have 150/150 servers and problems stays the same

the joke is, there is a queue system, but it bugs out because it can't detect people sitting in the lobby

[south chasm]

Perhaps but it'd be a step forward, with the progression server specific its very frustrating

[burnt bone]

plus, increasing the server cap causes a LOT more strain on the server

[sage yew]

it is, but we can't help you with this

[south chasm]

I'm not asking you to, its just the experience most evenings.

[sage yew]

for the sake of it, I simply assume they adjust the system to make it actually work if they're ever gonna attempt it

[sage yew]

#evrima-eu

[barren zephyr]

i need help i m only eu 4 and i m stuck

[sage yew]

#evrima-eu

[sage yew]

@valid carbon tried once to suggest a similiar approach. As it basically couples growth with needed activities. Like for some species, to roam around and not staying at one place for the whole time. Not engaging with the dangers of the world and simply play by a timer till you hit adult.

But people hated the idea. At which point I don't know if they hated it because they like to AFK grow, or that it still could be bypassed. Which I quit didn't understood very well. As multiple parameters could act on this mechanic to discourage bypass attempts, or by trying to bypass it, making them actually playing again, which would overthrow the idea of AFK growing completely.

It's already weird, that you get benefits, from simply waiting, as growing is a nearly completely passive activity

[fallow marten]

i think that sitting around for 5 minutes and then getting debuffs just because you wanted to relax is annoying

i don't even think there should be debuffs besides maybe slower running and worse stamina regen

[sage yew]

you don't play survival game simply to relax. That only speaks for a bad gamedsign

[fallow marten]

i never said to just relax

i said, after a battle, let's say you wanted to just sit and talk to a friend afterwards while healing

[cyan flame]

I think the issue is that having downtime is part of it, or at least a lot of people want that. And they do want the ability to relax at some points as well.

[fallow marten]

and then you get a freaking debuff because you sat down for five irl minutes.

[cyan flame]

So the idea of constantly being on the move, or constantly having something to worry about, isn't that appealing, or so it seems.

[fallow marten]

not all animals go around killing everyone. they relax for hours every day

[sage yew]

well, tolerances should be made big enough to counter such problems, I think "5 min" is just a suggestion

[fallow marten]

owls and birds fly around a lot, yes, but they relax for LONG periods of time

same goes with mammals

[fallow marten]

even then, it should be if you sit around for 45 minutes not moving much

because it gives enough time to relax, chat and get ready for whatever else is gonna be thrown at you in the game

[sage yew]

animals do not necessarily feel boredom. Which does not translate very well into a game

[fallow marten]

5-10 minutes is stupid because you don't become ill because you sat down for an hour irl

[fallow marten]

they very much do

birds and mammals feel extreme boredom sometimes like us... minus the gaming

but what i'm trying to say is

[sage yew]

claiming it being stupid is... dude, simply suggest to extend this period and it's okay

[fallow marten]

if you want to relax for 45 minutes irl, sitting in the isle, then that should be an option

[fallow marten]

if you get debuffs bc u sat down for 10 minutes, it'd be a bit silly

[sage yew]

not really, as you always should have a valid reason to do something. 45min downtime simply amplifies the problem

[fallow marten]

if it's over an hour irl then yeah i'd be ok with it, but not severe debuffs

[fallow marten]

ok i have plenty of valid reasons to sit down and relax in the game

[sage yew]

that does not actually speaks for the game tho

[fallow marten]

1 i do not want to be fighting and moving around all the time because i might be content, 2 i simply want to relax and destress listening to the ambience, 3 i do not want to be constantly on the move on a diet hunt only to be killed by a carnotaurus within seconds.

[fallow marten]

how

[sage yew]

it feels like you're describing a chat-community
lets be happy, sit together, enjoy the time... it is nothing a good game would provide with such an ease

[fallow marten]

what

no i am not, lol

the game is a survival game, not a blood bath

[sage yew]

never said it's supposed to be a blood bath either

[fallow marten]

well it seems like you want it to be

[sage yew]

only that the game should provide you after every step another good reason to engage with the world

[fallow marten]

literally all i'm saying is to give people time to relax and sit down without getting debuffs every 10 minutes

[fallow marten]

yeah that's fine

i never said you HAVE to sit down

but i think being allowed to sit down for extended periods of time before your dinosaur gets debuffs (and hunger and thirst problems) would be nice

and then after that extended period of time you HAVE to stand up and run around for as long as you sat down or something

because otherwise you'll be sluggish

[sage yew]

I don't like the "time" approach either, but coupling it with travel distance

after 5 min, you need to move at least 15m
after 15 min you need to move at least 50m
after 30 min you need to move at least 100m

basically, the longer you stay still, the circle where you get debuffed, grows over time, same for the debuff itself. So you get after 5 min of downtime 1% debuff, after 15min 5% debuff, after 30min 15% debuff

it should scale reasonably, but I want to remind here, that specific numbers are hjust examples and could differ in a real life scenario

[fallow marten]

obviously to make it better would be giving your dinosaur things to do, like swim or rub yourself against something or run around and engage with people could give you buffs, but sitting around gives you nothing

[fallow marten]

yeah that's completely fine

[sage yew]

I agree on this. As a single concept can't work on it's own very well. There is a lot more to be done beside of this.

[fallow marten]

yeah

i think having your dinosaur moving around and engaging should give you buffs, but sitting around doesn't give you anything, no debuffs, no buffs, because your dinosaur is just neutral at that moment, and then sitting around for too long should make your dinosaur a bit icky, and then give the debuffs

[valid carbon]

Yeah I could careless if they move a few feet and rest again, at least the moved and are at the screen.

[fallow marten]

because then moving around is encouraged and sitting around is okay, but for too long it's not okay

[valid carbon]

Exactly

[fallow marten]

and the debuffs last a while, so you can't just sit up and walk around for a few moments and they're gone and go back to your little chat pool

[sage yew]

exactly and they can't simply set their timer to 45 min, but maybe 5 min, and that would make already it better, not perfect, but better

[fallow marten]

maybe

it just depends when you get the debuffs

because i think after 5 minutes you get the debuffs that can be very annoying, because you could be conversing with your friend relaxing (like i do, we still move around a lot, but we still like to sit and chat, too)

[sage yew]

btw. when you just sit for like 15 min, completely out of screen not even moving the mouse, the game should kick you

[fallow marten]

yeah, but give you a warning too

[sage yew]

nah, kick and done, make room for people that actually want to play

[fallow marten]

maybe

[valid carbon]

I don't mind people talking at their screen, but most people fill food/water set a timer for 30-40 minutes then repeat till grown, makes the game seem empty and devoid.

[sage yew]

and it throws the whole demographic over board, as the map gets devoid of juvis and subs and only adults are left

[valid carbon]

If you had to get up and run in a circle for a minute it still encourages a encounter and keeps people not afking, adults can sit and get obese for all I care.

[fallow marten]

not a minute

i'd say run around for 10 minutes in game at least

[valid carbon]

Whatever time, it's just example.

[sage yew]

movement builds up muscles!

[fallow marten]

because then the afk growers have a chore to do to get rid of their debuffs they deserve

[fallow marten]

ya i see

[sage yew]

people react so allergic to specific numbers xD

[fallow marten]

a minute of running around in the isle is terrible!!!!!!

[valid carbon]

Lol, it's better than every non-adult sitting in a bush growing afk which takes away from dinosaurs killing a younger target.

[sage yew]

but the main problem is, that the game design does currently not provide so many reasons to plan your next step, as you are litteraly fed and all done for like 40 min after you are full

[fallow marten]

yeah

i think adding buffs for running around and looking at different parts of the map would give more things to do and encourage walking around

[sage yew]

yep

[urban flax]

Instead of adding debuffs for afk growing, why not make growing interesting instead ?

[fallow marten]

yeah but how

[valid carbon]

remove some of a diets bonus, and add a bonus for movement that stacks with diet, like a well fit boon.

[sage yew]

didn't I just said the same?

[fallow marten]

growing irl isn't very interesting and i don't think growing in game will be very interesting either

[urban flax]

As a stego for example you don't have much of a choice
And as everything, when you're juvie, you don't have anything to do when your stomach is full

[valid carbon]

Almost every stego I run into is that is sub or smaller is sitting in a bush growing.. They need the obese boon 😛

[urban flax]

That's what happens when you make a game about playing animals.
But solving an issue that is caused by gameplay being not engaging by making the workaround tedious isn't a good solution. It actively makes the game less enjoyable to play.

[sage yew]

uff, you seem to missed your childhood
as basically everything of interest happened there and this could be reflected by gamedesign as well

but currently is every engagement just optional

[tepid gate]

You're half right - a situation where someone gets to sit down for 5 minutes because that is the most optimal action for them to take and they have nothing better to do is BAD.

However as it is the game forces you to sit down for 5 minutes if not more at a time due to how it works.

Either way debuffing people for sitting down is an atrocious suggestion.

[valid carbon]

So it's only enjoyable when your full grown killing others?

[sage yew]

for those who want to play afk

[fallow marten]

ya but how to put a childhood into a dinosaur that has no parents

[urban flax]

And those who have a good reason to sit in a bush for a few minutes are denied this option

[tepid gate]

no lol, a lot of animals are much better before they're fully grown and their lethality decreases as they get bigger.

Deino between 40% and 70% is an absolute killing machine. At full growth it gets much less threatening.

[valid carbon]

Ok so my argument is still valid.

You can sit for a minute or 5 but sitting for 30-40 minutes doing nothing is afk

[tepid gate]

I literally attack everything and anything as Deino because I don't mind having to regrow because Deino is just at its best when it's around subadult

[sage yew]

we talked about a time dead zone, it should be made reasonable
so you can still play, like coupling it with... dang just read it
#general-feedback-discussion message

[urban flax]

What I would do to make growing more interesting would be to give players ways of earning more perks or other bonus during their growth by doing some specific things
Also, like Aken mentioned, the game forces you to afk when you're hurt. I'd add specific tasks to do in order to recover from bleed, fractures and lost health faster
Like eating medicinal plants

[tepid gate]

better yet - just play Deino, I afk with it, watch something while having the game running in the background and listen in on any sound that I hear coming from the game, I typically kill at least half a dozen of people before reaching full growth.

[valid carbon]

Almost all Deinos actively grow, sitting out of the water causes dehydration to fast, staying in the water afking you become a tasty deino snack for another deino

[tepid gate]

this is what I call "efficiency" and "multitasking" I'm afk but not really, I kill people and play the game but also not really

[fallow marten]

apparently not that deino

[urban flax]

Needing to move a certain distance after sitting for a set period of time is a very bad fix in my opinion
If people choose to launch a game and then not play it, it means there is a flaw in the game, not in the players behaviour

[valid carbon]

No one said a certain distance, run in a circle for all I care.

[cyan flame]

I think you're meant to be able to get perks as you grow up. Not the same as elder perks but something.

[tepid gate]

I think that's the diet buffs, they're already in the game

[sage yew]

Like I said, you can't solve a issue with one simple concept
there are a lot of more things that need to work properly

don't argue "it's stupid" like some, because it can't fix a issue precisely enough, but see it as something of a bigger picture with many elements working together

[cyan flame]

And I think when we get proper "baby biomes" it might help, since you can be out and be up against things you can handle, while avoiding the things you can't without having to just outright hide and pray they do not see you.

[urban flax]

Yeah, we'll see how it turns out when perks drop
But hat I mean is that I think there should be a way to get perks independent from growing and eating things
So if you wanna get cool perks you have to work for them
And maybe some perks could become unobtainable once you're full grown, to encourage people to make good use of their growth time

[cyan flame]

Pretty sure it's not no. They've talked about perks both when you grow and when you die as elder. And not the same as diets But they could have changed it I guess. Which would be, well, strange but not impossible. Not that diets currently do all that much, but that's another issue as well, as well as a balance issue if they do too much possibly.

[sage yew]

"And I think when we get proper "baby biomes""
I don't think that this is what people need... safe zones where you can play far away from others

[valid carbon]

If they added a scent which gave a area on the direction compass within a certain distance people would have to be a lot less afk, kinda like how deer smell hunters upwind.

[cyan flame]

Did you read all of it? :p

[cyan flame]

Yes, I don't mind getting perks by doing something. I just wanted to mention that I think we're supposed to somehow get perks both while growing as well as if we die successfully.

And hopefully that could work like you describe.

[sage yew]

yea, I just never needed this "extra" protection

[urban flax]

Problem is, I don't really know what could give a dino perks during its growth... Getting a perk from killing a human for example seems a bit out of place

[cyan flame]

Maybe because you've not been found by something sufficiently larger than you. But from what I can tell, a "baby biome" that keeps too big things out while allowing for things you stand a chance against would be good. It is not the same as "safe zone" or "away from others".

Just because an adult carno can't get you in the cycads very easily, does not mean a solo omni cant. But a solo omni you might be able to fight off, while the adult carno will just kill you.

Situations like that is what I mean.

[lapis swallow]

killing a stego as a hypsi

[urban flax]

This is exactly what I meant

[sage yew]

at least I wouldn't call it "baby biome", it sounds like a safe zone
if it's just a part of the flora and fauna I totally go for it

[cyan flame]

Spit in face. Graze. Spit in face. Graze.

[valid carbon]

If perks are like diets that might be to much micromanagement, I feel it's unfair that it's a lot easier to get a perfect diet to feed my babies as a carnivore then it is for a herbivore to obtain a perfect diet. 😦

[cyan flame]

So noted. Hope my example helped clarify it then!

[valid carbon]

Hypsi would stavre to death before that stego would die.

[cyan flame]

Graze!

[lapis swallow]

eaxctly

you gotta have a hypsi megapack

[urban flax]

Herbivore diets rn are pathetic
They're literally the reason I'm waiting for an update to start playing the game again

[valid carbon]

Chance are you'll heal my 2n bite force as you grow with a stego. 😛

It would be like me suckling on toes.

[cyan flame]

How much damage does hypsi spit do? Anyone know?

[urban flax]

It deals damage ?

[valid carbon]

It does damage?

[cyan flame]

Wait, you think it's easier to get perfect diet as carni than as herbi? You mean one of all three things?

[valid carbon]

Yes

[cyan flame]

Last I heard yes.

[valid carbon]

Most herbivores don't have all 3 diets in one place.

[lapis swallow]

you were able to oneshot your children with it

[cyan flame]

Though I suspect they don't do much damage, but apparently it did something, at least according to those that somehow managed to kill their offspring.

[urban flax]

That's brutal

[cyan flame]

Yeah, it's what I heard too.

[lapis swallow]

its funny

[cyan flame]

That's true. Still, you'd think that with carnis having to find their prey and all, it'd be more of a struggle. At least I feel like carnis should struggle a little but more than their herbi "counterpart" when it comes to these things.

[sage yew]

I just sit here to wait for my washing machine to finish and I forgot to turn it on =_=

the life of an adult is so tedious

[sage yew]

it's not that of a struggle, if your main goal is to just kill everybody :D

[cyan flame]

I think we were talking how easy or hard it is to get one of all three diets for the purpose of nesting.

[topaz pendant]

@thin aurora logs that you can go inside are being added on gateway island 😄

[tepid gate]

I can absolutely see how someone can see Deino as being perfectly balanced if they believe it to be losing to a pack of 8 Omnis. A pack of 8 Omnis is nothing to a Deino, their best bet is to stall long enough for it to die of dehydration, if they actually engage it in a fight - they will all die.

I walk into packs like that with Deino whenever they've made a kill and I take whatever they'd killed while typically taking down at least one of them that's brave/stupid enough to try doing something about me taking their kill.

Deino dumpsters Utahs so hard it isn't even funny and any half competent Deino player knows it.

[thin aurora]

[thin aurora]

Anyone know if there will be the possibility to carry other dinos in the future without killing them? For example a deino carrying its babies in its mouth?

[proud coral]

They've talked about it before but I don't think anything is guaranteed. I remember Dondi talking about how it'd be unfair for some creatures anatomically incapable of picking their children up to be unable to use such a generic ability.
Something like that at least.

[sage yew]

why shouldn't some species have that feature?
It's not like everyone needs to have the same abilities

@frozen heron@dry sable
Bottleneck sections like gorges are one of not so many features of open world design, to actually create any interesting aspects of a map.

The need to traverse a dangerous area or to find a way around it, are something that can make a map more interesting. These are no parts of the map that are supposed to be liked and maybe that's why it's easy to hate them. But if you start to strip a map of everything that is uncomfortable, you just devoid the map of interesting landscape features.

More bottlenecks!

[dry sable]

ehhh idk… MAYBE one or two

[sage yew]

@plush vault I don't agree on the flower part and covered cliffs, but I agree on cliffs in general. As they are an interesting landscape feature and plains are just boring, maybe even lazy level design

[plush vault]

Mhm. I understand that. I personally think they should lower the foliage, but I don't think they should get rid of it entirely

[sand lantern]

Cliffs would look cool without all the silly foliage

Or less foliage

[sage yew]

agree ;)
while the best thing would be foliage interactions, if they had for example resistance on movement or even repulsion at collision, you would automatically pay more attention to your immediate surroundings. Because for now you simply run straight through them, as avoiding bushes makes you just slower and it's so easy to get bored and to stop paying attention so you die, because the next cliff just appeared out of nowhere, which makes the whole experience frustrating.

paying attention and actually avoiding bushes, shouldn't just be tedious, but rewarding, in a sense that you are able to traverse faster, not slower - as a straight line is currently the fastest way

@grand folio feels like a generic RPG feature, isn't it?

[grand folio]

Yeah but it makes grouping so much easier

[sage yew]

true, but it takes away the interactions, like actually getting up close to someone which enhances the overall feel. I think it's much more important, than the ease of grouping

But I would like to group with people that I have in my steam friends list tho

[valid carbon]

It's actually easy with organs

[lucid robin]

i remember someone mentioning something about red scent? is this what they meant? that little differently colored part of the scent compass? i can see how itd look red, but i think its white

[icy lion]

East/West

That image shows West, specifically

[lucid robin]

how can u tell it shows west?

[icy lion]

The direction of the lines

The line on the right is pointing up, the line on the left is pointing down

When it's animated, the waves will radiated towards North and South too

[limber hull]

#general-feedback message

pachy already had good tools to deal with omni, tons of stuns and fractures that shut it down
pachy bleed resist gets buffed
fractures get buffed
bucking gets majorly buffed

the fact that people are still saying pachy needs more tools to deal with omni is the greatest skill issue moment in the history of The Isle

[faint moth]

HONESTLY

[slim halo]

._. I just thought that maybe I shouldn't almost die of bleed from being basically nipped

[limber hull]

oh btw before anyone asks, no, i dont want pachy to be worse at dealing with omni, or omni to be better at dealing with pachy, i reckon its fine as is, but it's very silly to suggest pachy needs to be stronger in this matchup

[slim halo]

That's not called a skill issue

I never said that

[gentle flint]

Pachy bleed was actually already buffed this update lol

[slim halo]

Weird

Cuz a 50% Utah pounced me once, on accident and I almost died of bleed

I was adult

Not even a full pounce, just like a nip

[gentle flint]

I mean it depends on how much you were moving around after honestly tbh

[slim halo]

I walked for 3 seconds then sat

I just feel like a nip shouldn't almost kill me

Not saying that "uTaH tOo sTrOnG, BUFF PACHY!!"

[cyan flame]

Were you almost out of food or water?

[slim halo]

No

[cyan flame]

Because last I tested, a omni pounce on a pachy with full food and water, who just stands there, still leaves the pachy with 5% blood and health when it starts healing. And that was a pounce until the omni fell off, since we were testing stam regen for it.

So, I'm uncertain how you took that much bleed damage from what sounds like a tap pounce.

[slim halo]

Idk either 🤷‍♀️

All I know is that I almost died

[gentle flint]

I mean I wouldn’t say 50% blood is almost dying tbf

[slim halo]

Eehhh

Still a lot for a nip

[cyan flame]

It does sound very strange, at least from my experience. I could see maybe taking a bit more bleed than you expected, because even with the minor bleed resistance, pachy still do bleed quite well. But taking that much from such a short pounce does not seem accurate. Especially if you only walked a few steps and then sat down at that.

@slim haloYou got admin on scopes server?

[slim halo]

Idk man it just happened to me

[slim halo]

Huh

[cyan flame]

Guessing no to that question then. Go look in DM, I explained it :p

[slim halo]

ok

[limber hull]

@agile roost thats already planned

[agile roost]

Ok, cool

[left nacelle]

@small anchor There's some playables that need the new map tho, like Beipi. Plus the new map will allow them to add the migration system, making herbivore gameplay more enjoyable

[lapis swallow]

@small anchor there is only one guy working on the map

Everybody else is doing different stuff

[left nacelle]

I don't think it's just one guy, but yeah they are doing other stuff at the same time as the map. Like the animators for example aren't gonna be doing map work, so they have other things they're doing

[small anchor]

o okay

[left nacelle]

@agile roost Sorry, I know it's been a while since you posted your Beipi suggestion, but it's already been confirmed Beipi can dive from places. You can see it about halfway through this video in the background to the right of the waterfall https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhArvxsaNO8

[agile roost]

Yeah

I was kinda thinking like from a cliff it could easily dive without getting seriously hurt

And if the water was deep enough

[left nacelle]

Yeah i think as long as they don't hit the bottom they'd be fine

[agile roost]

Alright 👍

[sage yew]

#general-feedback-discussion message
adding to the discussion from yesterday.

It was mentioned, that you have plenty of reason to be stationary for a fair
amount of time, like healing, regaining stamina, or even socialising.

The point was, to discuss on how to combat AFK growers and how debuffs
could be used, but shouldn't contradict with regular gameplay.

And while no one likes to get a debuff, while playing mostly as intended, It
was somehow totally forgotten that debuffs only focused in this discussion
on growth itself, not on any other stats.

Which wouldn't be an disadvantage for anyone that is currently enjoying a
peaceful moment, but it would motivate to get in movement, if he wants to
enjoy growth buffs over the grwoth cycle. Which would mostly only effect
AFK growers and if someone want's to enjoy a peacefull moment, it's not
such a big bummer, to grow slightly slower in this time. As it could be
argued, that you need a certain amount of stress to gain muscle mass.

[faint folio]

Well, but the thing about afk growing is... The process taking a long time isn't a deterrent, because by definition they leave their keyboard and go do more interesting things, only coming back to check in and get water/food

And this is seen in stegos afk growing currently

As a juvi stego it's really dangerous to try to get all 3 diets because of the spread of the plants in high traffic areas. As a result a lot of afk growers will only get 1-2 and sit in a bush and afk, even though that extends the grow time from 5h to 8-10h

[copper venture]

Hey the isle evrima is lagging so how do I fix it

[left nacelle]

Adjust your settings, other than that, idk if you can do anything else

Try #🔧-evrima-troubleshooting-🔧

[faint folio]

I'd say a decent way to determine afk is if the game gets no inputs for 10-15 minutes. That's not typing in chat, not moving head to look around, probably long enough to heal a broken leg, etc.

As for the punishment for afk? Maybe scavengers or bugs spawn nearby, making noise and drawing attention to the area. Maybe AI dinos (after that's added) have a chance to find you

Because really the way to stop afk is to make it unlikely to survive to adult if you attempt it. With enough tolerance that people can take reasonable breaks

[sage yew]

@eager bane
how about every successful offspring gives during his lifetime a small
buff to the parents? That way parents have an incentive to keep
them alive, for as long as possible.

It would be also nice, if playing as a hatchling would give some buffs,
as they're basically composed from the genetics of their parents.

So you have interest in playing as a hatchling and even provide for
offspring on your own.

[eager bane]

That would be very good! And with an incentive, many more people would nest

[sage yew]

bigger nesting sites could arise from this and I think that people would love to build up small communities to simply care for younglings

with new ways to engage with others, like raiding such nests for nutrients

that could give some nice territorial vibes

[obsidian jetty]

I really hate to be that person, but...wouldn't that...just result in the legacy-clan-structures all over again? With apex mega-mixpacks and people snackrificing so everyone stays healthy....?

[sage yew]

and when it's balanced with nutrients? So everyone has an incentive to leave a nest at some point, as food got farmed around the area by your parents. Without good nutrients, you wouldn't be able to get fully buffed

for example
1/4 genetics
1/4 nutrients
1/4 parenthood
1/4 ????? <<<< whatever this could be

[obsidian jetty]

I honestly don't think the "lack of incentive" is much of a reason for people not nesting as much tbh...the parents didn't get anything out of it in legacy and there been (bet there still are) plenty of nests. I think it's a mix of nesting being a bit of a chore rn, finding a mate in the first place is kinda difficult as well (which you didn't need to do in legacy), the nesting sites being absolutely useless, the absence of global chat (yes, as unimmersive as it was, spamming "A for Allo egg" gets you more takers than a green button on the character selection screen)...and other things I can't really put my finger on rn. The map itself maybe...?

[sage yew]

The problem is, I don't see a reason why I should nest, beside of being it a nice activity you can do, but without purpose?
I also have no reason to go through the hassle of being a hatchling, as the only feedback is that growing up just takes longer

Nothing you can do, should be without a reason. Especially if it's so demanding as surviving as a hetchling or trying to raise some

[obsidian jetty]

That's...a you problem tho, sorry, not trying to sound rude as I'm kinda the same, never been big on nesting and only taking eggs when I didn't know what I wanted to play or I felt like being in some kind of group for whatever reason (meeting new people is a good reason for taking an egg, especially for new players).

But I don't think adding a "buff" of whatever sort to nesting itself solves the issue...like...I wouldn't nest anyway or I'd be annoyed cuz I felt like I "had to" nest to get that buff, even tho I really don't enjoy doing it, but the ones who do, have an advantage.

Maybe the perks are the way to go...like for people who enjoy nesting anyway, they can through nesting unlock a perk path that makes it easier or whatnot.

[left nacelle]

@summer thistle Just an fyi, you can save over old skins, which pretty much deletes them. But yeah it would be nice to be able to outright delete them

[sage yew]

hm, I think the nesting experience could be part of the gameloop, as it's one of the most important things for animals to actually reproduce

and: if people are totally into nesting, they may receive some nice buffs, but they wouldn't be a bigger problem for overall map-balance, as they're spending their time nesting

I also wouldn't say that nutrients and parenthood should be equal
while nutrients can give 15% on something, parenthood could reward you with just 1.5%

"being forced" isn't really a good argument tho
as gamedesign is basically all about forcing players to do stuff, that the game intends you to do

like you are "forced" to eat or drink
or rest when hurt
or whatever else, if the game is not supposed to be a blank slate

[obsidian jetty]

Eating and drinking, healing and resting are a completely different thing tho. It's what you need to do, so you survive. You don't need to nest to survive. At all.

[sage yew]

but you survive for what then? If not reproduction
from the perspective of animals

[obsidian jetty]

And if you take a pack of wolves or...a lot of other species, you'll find out that not every individual in that pack has offspring.

[sage yew]

true and free choice is still given, you don't need every possible buff to survive

also, the nesting aspect could be different for different species

like some just let the babys hatch and they have to care for them selve

[obsidian jetty]

what would be the point in that? That's...even worse tbh xD You spawn in smaller than you would if you just chose that playable and would still be left alone?

Look at it from the hatchling's perspective. there's nothing in it for you at all

[sage yew]

you'll get the genetic buff ;)
would add to this, that genetic buffs would only show at 90% growth and slowly build up, so you don't go suicide after birth, just to get the buff you actually want

[obsidian jetty]

errr, weren't we talking about buffs for the parents?

[sage yew]

both

but basically, easy nesting for some species, where you basically just drop your eggs and move on and some others species that need to care for their offspring

[obsidian jetty]

pretty sure the original feedback was...based around the nesting dinos...not the kids. And from that perspective...that would be awful

[sage yew]

nah, I just try to build on that idea

[left nacelle]

@split junco If you bite underwater, it can't be heard above water. The charging sounds can tho, which makes sense because you're creating a big current when you do that

[split junco]

they can be heard. I just tested it with someone.

[left nacelle]

The bite sounds? That must've been something that was changed recently then

[split junco]

yes, or maybe a bug idk, but it is really bad for deinos

[sage yew]

if I don't mistaken something, you can hear crocs biting under water since u6

[left nacelle]

Then yeah that must be a bug

[sage yew]

I'm sure that wasn't intented, as they changed the biting sound and stuff

[left nacelle]

Report it in #🐞-evrima-bug-reports-🐞

[obsidian jetty]

I mean, as I said, I am totally alright with perks (or even buffs) that make nesting easier for people who enjoy nesting...that's not the issue here.
My issue is that...first, I don't think "gimme something or I won't do it" is the right mindset for this particular topic, as...I see it as an optional thing to do, not a necessary one. And second...there are a lot of other issues that make nesting as unattractive as it is right now that even giving people a full plate armor and laser cannons when hatched won't fix.

[sage yew]

hm, actually, I like the nesting after u6 way more, as it has become somewhat demanding and challenging. Feels more "real" tho

I personally only wait for a reason to nest, because simply to do it because I can is not really desirable for a feature

but when I come by an idea, that makes nesting more desirable without buffs and such, I will surely consider it

[obsidian jetty]

I actually think the whole game is...kinda weird right now. Might be because there's only so many dinosaurs and so little to do in general, but somehow it feels like a lot of people aren't even...trying to play the game yet. They're just growing whatever, running straight towards center or nw or wherever the party's at and beat the living hell out of everything they find, rinse, repeat. So...I feel like it's kinda hard to tell what happens and how the nesting dilemma works out once people start...actually playing the game. 😄

[sage yew]

yea, you can't currently take the game in its state as an example for anything. I'm also taking a break from it right now, as everything is so random

[faint folio]

Yeah I don't know about a parent buff... But really I think 2 changes that would make nesting a much more attractive option are:

1. make a panel you can access in game to view any eggs available and accept invites to them-- you don't have to be already dead to look at available nests and hatch in

2. have growing from a nest be buffed so that the grow time is equal to or faster than growing from spawn. Then full diet, parent protection, etc will be much more attractive than currently

Especially the first change because without global, how are you supposed to know if there's a nest available?

[obsidian jetty]

Yuh, I'm not sure about the accepting an invite part, because of denying food by just poofing mid-fight, but being able to see whether or not there's an interesting egg available before yeeting off a cliff, drowning or running face first into the next deino would definitely be a nice thing.

[faint folio]

There are reasonable ways to avoid food denial. For one, you could have a player dino replaced by AI if they accept an egg, rather than despawning. For two, you could have the player dino "die", leaving behind the body. For 3, you could require a combat timer-- taking no damage 5 minutes prior (or a minute eg safelog time, whatever) before you could accept an egg invite from in game

[obsidian jetty]

Yep, all of those would work (I still don't like dino AI, but that's a me problem 😄 )

[burnt bone]

Or it could be like sleeping, you have to sit down for a minute for the ability to select an egg to pop up, then your dino just dies where you are.

[faint folio]

I mean it depends on how it's implemented, but I'm wary of it too. That being said, it's coming, so I accept it and move on with what we can do with that reality

[faint folio]

Yeah that's a combo of option 2 and 3

Any option or a combination of them would mean that you can't accept an egg to spite another player out of a meal

[rancid raptor]

@pulsar lake keep in mind that quetz isn't a pteranodon
Its wingspan is 40 feet.. It will not look the same as ptera's when folding their wings

[pulsar lake]

It was a pterosaur, and all pterosaurs had backwards folding wings. Their wings are the same, just proportioned differently

Also it just looks awful with the sideways folding wings

[rancid raptor]

Remind me how short pteranodon's wings are compared to quetz?

Their anatomy is entirely different

Quetz is not just a pteranodon x 100

[rancid raptor]

Their wings are absolutely not "the same but proportioned differently" what?

[faint folio]

Tbh if you look at the bones it looks like the wing itself does fold backwards. Just the skin flap is folded on the inside of the wing rather than the outside

[pulsar lake]

Yeah? It’s wing finger is shorter and it’s wing membrane is longer. What about that is fundamentally different

[rancid raptor]

Their entire point is based on their personal opinion on how they want it

They mentioned "all pterosaur wings are the same but proportioned differently" that must be the most interesting thing i've heard so far in this server

Shall we compare the quetz's anatomy to ptera's anatomy? idk why this is even something that needs to be re-proven

[pulsar lake]

Also quit with the hostile attitude. I don’t have patience for that

[rancid raptor]

My intention is not hostility, it's not my fault or concern that you perceive it as such

The bottom line is that quetz anatomy (5 meter tall pterosaur) is entirely different from a pteranodon's anatomy.

Their wings were not the same.

[rancid raptor]

read this twice please

[last lily]

I think you're missing the point on Defenstration's critique..

[pulsar lake]

Their anatomy was still similar with different niches altering them. They are fundamentally the same structures that are altered to fit different niches

[last lily]

it's how the Quetz's wing folds, which is typically pretty consistent in the later pterosaurs, with various modifications pertaining to the various families and genera

[rancid raptor]

Entirely different but a few similarities / = / Similar

[pulsar lake]

^

[faint folio]

I'm not sure the wing membrane was stiff enough to hold the trailing edge above the wing finger if that makes sense? It seems like gravity would sag that skin towards the ground

[rancid raptor]

Unsure why the concept chose that approach with the wings, but as they are devs and we are not - they do know better, and they likely have a reason 4 it

[pulsar lake]

Well the wings of pterosaurs weren’t just floppy skin. They were more sturdy.

[last lily]

To be fair, it is a statue rip

I saw it in person actually and it's pretty good for what it is

if maybe a tad too tall but I'm not sure on that

[faint folio]

That's fair. It may also be an animation consideration as well-- thin membranes like bat, dragon or pterosaur wings that fold and stretch have got to be a pain to try to animate without it looking really terrible

[last lily]

Also this ^

The wing membrane did have some strength to it for sure

[last lily]

Well we do have pterosaur wings as an example already in The Isle and PCE and they have proven to be a pain to work with unless you make it look more leathery as opposed to baggy which I think is the proper approach?

We do not talk about the Ptera scent animation

[faint folio]

That's true. Although tbh I'm not a huge fan of ptera's ground animations related to the wings? It just feels like the membrane near it's wrist bone is too small... Probably because they were trying to avoid weird folding issues with animating closed wings

[last lily]

One criticism I've heard that might've fixed that is if they made the wing membranes thicker,

Hard to describe but it'd help make it look more solid and a little more fluid I think--side note: I haven't seen Ptera walk much in the longest time, rip

Mainly because the game wants to murder my CPU anytime I play it

[faint folio]

The trailing edge of that back wing just seems way too close to the leading edge (near vertical limb) compared to the flying animatioms

[sage yew]

isn't it more of an #paleotalk ?

or am I missing the point?

[last lily]

I do think that might be animation related, though as to which part that falls into (the rig, model, skeleton, animation proper, etc) I'm not sure

[pulsar lake]

It kind of evolved into this from my suggestion

[faint folio]

It's not paleotalk because we're discussing the Isle's models and animations... Not necessarily the real life animals themselves

[last lily]

Kinda both I'd say

[faint folio]

Well yes, but the point is on whether quetzal's wing is modeled/animated right

Paleotalk I would personally save for discussing solely about the actual historical quetzal

[sage yew]

are there any quetz models?

[faint folio]

Not sure. But if the concept represents how they plan on designing the model, then...

[sage yew]

feels like this talk could be done there as well, but I don't bother

[feral solstice]

@proud coral Iirc species specific spawns are already a thing on gateway

[proud coral]

[sage yew]

no more center spam, finally :D

[last lily]

It is mostly about the concept art and how the Quetz's wings are folded(the wing finger folds outwards to the side like King Ghidorah as opposed to underneath like an actual Pterosaur)

Whether or not that'll be a thing in the model whenever that's revealed is unknown and I sure do hope that it doesn't make it in

Just feels like an artistic mistake, sort of like the "hoof" on Shant being on the wrong side

[feral solstice]

Yeah cause I remember seeing Carno have more spawns than Pachy for example, and also different spawns

[faint folio]

It's good for other reasons, too. For new players they will always spawn near favorable habitat and food for instance

[last lily]

also I love how the bot doesn't tolerate swearing in a discord for a game with some gore, violence and mature content

[proud coral]

That was done to cut down on toxicity according to Punch.

[faint folio]

I never understood that, here or on day of dragons... Like, dinosaurs/dragons mauling each other to death and killing babies for food doesn't already tread the line for a mature rating 🤣

[last lily]

Reminds me of Youtube's new censorship/demonetization policy

[faint folio]

I mean I really don't care one way or the other since I don't really swear much, I just think it's kind of funny

[last lily]

It is kind of, but it is mildly irritating sometimes

but this is also kinda offtopic, rip

[sage yew]

what the duck is your problem :D

[last lily]

I don't know, gonna quack about it??

[sage yew]

nah, have other ship to do

[last lily]

Ah duck, very well

[rancid raptor]

@grand folio Sure, on unofficial servers it could be fair for the devs to add it as an option

or generally allow modding on unofficial

but then again that might split the community

[feral solstice]

I believe you pinged the wrong person lol

[rancid raptor]

I believe I did so too

[barren zephyr]

@proud coral that would be awesome. I hope the devs consider your suggestion 🙂

[feral solstice]

fun fact; it’s already a thing

[rancid raptor]

docktor wants them to be spawned directly into their habitat regardless doe

wouldn't that eliminate the whole idea of your first migration as a juvie

[barren zephyr]

Well, the idea of it is good

It can be done several different ways

But you keep spawning at these specific locations and half the map is wasted

[rancid raptor]

I kinda want beipi to be able to jump in the water

Yk, a jump-type fast swimmin

[barren zephyr]

Yeah cant wait for beipia

I think they might hold it off till U7 though

[rancid raptor]

Aww

Are they releasing troodon with gateway tho?

[barren zephyr]

You mean, are they releasing gateway with troodon

[rancid raptor]

Whatever yea

[barren zephyr]

Troodon is 100% confirmed for 6.5

Gateway isn't

But i heard something about beipia in 6.5 recently

[faint folio]

Not really. Spawn juvis into an area that is survivable short term, but not ideal. Easy enough with diets; give juvis access to one diet in their starting zone, but to gain access to better buffs they need to migrate.

Especially for dinos with longer grow times, it will be important to migrate as a juvi to gain access to optimized growth

[rancid raptor]

Shouldn't it be made a bit hard for juvies in their spawnarea? Shouldn't juvies have to travel at least a medium long distance before they get to their desired diets and safe locations filled with other adults of their species? @faint folio

[barren zephyr]

If it gets implemented carnos would know where to look for food then

[rancid raptor]

Wdym

[rancid raptor]

Spawn locations that aren't specific would lead to the opposite of that

[barren zephyr]

These are specific spawns

[faint folio]

I mean... Spawn zones should ideally be far from areas adults look for diets anyways-- I can't count the number of times I've been a baby and been killed by adult members of my species, particularly herbis

[rancid raptor]

I'm suggesting juvies should spawn the same way they are right now, like not spawning right where they want to be - having to travel a bit

The same concept, not the same design

concept of having to travel, not spawning directly where you wanna be

[barren zephyr]

Well i like the suggestion nonetheless

[rancid raptor]

That's how it should be though, what's the fun in spawning exactly where you want to be - not having to travel, and everything being served to you on a shiny golden plate with no risk/work?

[faint folio]

You don't get to pick where you spawn though... Simply that you'll be in a starting zone which provides minimum food not to starve before you have to travel for diets and minimum shelter so that adults can't spawn camp

[rancid raptor]

@faint folio

[faint folio]

That's not what's being suggested. You have to travel to get what you want and optimal build to survive or grow. You just aren't thrown into an area that really isn't suited. Like for example, baby deinos shouldnt spawn in the middle of lemon fields, far from the river. Because they need the river habitat, and it makes no sense for them to be anywhere else

Once you're there, you need to look a bit, but you can find food in the form of fish AI. However unless you want to sit out a very long, painful grow, you really need to also start traveling, looking to scavenge kills, and drown babies

[barren zephyr]

Well right now any sub herbivore is defenseless

They're slow and cant defend against other dinos

[rancid raptor]

i'm glad sub stegos are defenseless because once they're adults they're close to impossible

[rancid raptor]

I see whatchu mean and I agree as long as juvies have to travel upon spawn in order to get what they want

[faint folio]

You don't get spawned right into the middle of a herd with all your diets right there

[rancid raptor]

Yea I'm saying that's what should be avoided, if I didn't formulate that earlier

[faint folio]

But an arboreal species like Herrera needs to spawn near trees. Aquatics need to spawn at water. Etc

And I'd even argue that they should all spawn within reasonable (ie smelling) distance of one diet food, because new players very easily get lost and starving within 5 minutes of spawn because you can't find food and have no idea where to look is going to cause a lot of new people to refund

From there, once you have a full stomach the training wheels are off and it's up to the player to find other food, water, etc based on diet hints

[rancid raptor]

Smelling distance of their food?

I don't see many players complaining about starving as it is right now, where people have to look for diets from the very beginning.

How about this?

[faint folio]

Not many new players know about the discord

[rancid raptor]

Yea well I'm sure they know how not to starve within the very first 3 hours of gameplay

I never had the problem of starving when I started out with my first dinosurvival game, isle

apart from legacy, never liked that branch

[faint folio]

I think you'd be surprised. I've died multiple times back when I was new to starvation due to not knowing where to look, especially on carnivores back when AI was rare and didn't make noise

[rancid raptor]

how new?

were you

[rancid raptor]

Yeah well lets talk current evrima though

[faint folio]

That's long ago now, but still... Sucks to spawn at 20% food and spend the whole time looking for food and just starve in the middle of nowhere

[faint folio]

Within first couple days. Before I heard about vulnona maps and learned major landmarks and food areas

[rancid raptor]

20% food, isn't that like 20 minutes you have of trying to find food? how will you not find food when scenting constantly?

You can also graze as a herbivore, or find AI or corpses as a carni. which is not hard

I absolutely disagree with people spawning "in scent range" of their diets, like come on. We're going to make it that easy??

What's the point of diets when they're right in front of you?

diets are supposed to make you move

[faint folio]

It WAS hard. Back in July, AI didn't make noise. Deer were easiest to find but ran too fast. Boars were also easy but would kill babies. Corpses rely on other people being nearby... And if you don't know where the hot spots are, odds are you aren't gonna find any players

[rancid raptor]

Current evrima

Not july, lets talk abt current evrima

[faint folio]

Grazing is fine as herbi, but without knowing the map you can be trapped in the significant woodland without access to grazing while looking for food

[rancid raptor]

It'll be way easier to find players in gateway due to the great levelddesign we're going to get

[faint folio]

Well, I'm not a new player now, and you asked me about my new player experience so

[rancid raptor]

Yeah but would that experience have been anywhere near the same with current evrima? good AI sound and varied AI numbers?

[sage yew]

it's maybe not like the spawning area will be 50x50 meters, it could be spread on a wider area like 500x500 meters and good luck finding frash spawns as an adult

spawning areas could also partially overlap with different species

[rancid raptor]

I don't think so

[rancid raptor]

Most important thing is that players don't have it so easy that they spawn in "scent range" of their diets as juvies.. they need to find it themselves, travel a bit

Imagine getting to 50% growth so easily, with no risk, just out of spawning near your diets

correction: "scent*range" of diets

[faint folio]

Of ONE diet. One NODE. I'm not suggesting you spawn them in a field with all 3 diets in scent range. I'm not even suggesting spawning in a field with 5 orange trees. One marigold, as an example. The dino will starve unless it leaves to find other food nodes, which are not guaranteed to be in scent range.

[rancid raptor]

One diet makes it 1/3 easier for them to get to 50, they should not even spawn within a minute travel of their diet

not intentionally in design at least

diets should be way more interactable than "ok i spawn now i get my diet"

We already have 1 full diet upon spawn

That is plenty, plenty enough

If we spawned in scent range of yet another diet, we would be 2/3

just travel once and there you go, here is your nonearned diet

nonworked for, nonearned and no-fun diet

[faint folio]

Depends. If it's the same diet we spawn with (or maybe we don't spawn with a diet at all?) I really don't see much difference. But what it would do is allow players to understand how the scent mechanics work at the start of the game, know what they're looking for. After that? If they starve or make it to adult is on them

It's the game's responsibility to make sure the player understands the base mechanics. For better or for worse, that's something that legacy at least does with it's tutorial popup

Evrima lacks this

How well the player applies these mechanics, should determine the outcome

And honestly? It takes all 3 diets to get the 50% buff. If you give the player one of those, and then place the other 2 diets on the other side of the map, I don't see that as a handout or nonearned. You still have to work for your diet, with 2 migrations. But I think it is a better way to introduce scent, diets, migration, and eating/drinking than being dumped in a random spot with a list of keybinds that is half-baked

[sage yew]

would prefer spawning without the first diet tho

[barren zephyr]

True

[rancid raptor]

It's not about preferance, it's about logic and balance. Players should not have it that easy.

[rancid raptor]

It's the player's responsibility to learn the game, and if the player isn't able to keep up as good as most other new players - that is nothing but a skill issue, and the game should not be shamed for it lol

I do not at all see people complain about starving on current evrima, it's such a miniscule complaint till the point where it is irrelevant

We should not gift players the first diet upon scent rage in spawn, that is illogical

Didn't we already acknowledge that everyone spawns with a full and active diet already?

[cyan flame]

@faint folioI don't think migrations are meant to be something you constantly do. More so something that you do when needed, especially if you have sufficient number in the group that you can't still stay around. So I wouldn't really count that as a part of juvie gameplay very much, since they'd not eat much and might be able to stick around an area longer. And hopefully for diet, we get more biome oriented diets, so it's less "I have all my diets across the map" and more so "I have all my diets in my one or maybe two biomes, but the spawn rate and food values are limited instead".

[rancid raptor]

the main problem is this suggestion right here

[obsidian jetty]

may I ask why exactly it would be illogical to spawn an animal in the habitat it is meant to be in? As there would be food for that animal in that habitat it would probably be within scent range... O.o

[cyan flame]

I mean, you could happen to spawn nearby, if the food spawn is there. Happens already, sometime there is food "right there"; due to a food spawn, sometimes you have to move quite a bit. Depends a bit on the choice of spawn too. But unless you make a specific "can only spawn here" and also "can't spawn foodin this area", you would probably at times get better or worse spawns.

[rancid raptor]

the illogical part is spawning a player close to the scent range of one of their diets

[cyan flame]

And if you do spawn in the proper biome/habitat, then there's likely to be food around, in a reasonable distance.

[rancid raptor]

Yeah should happen by small chance, not an average and expected occurance

as stated earlier

[cyan flame]

Could do it that way. I dislike the idea of having to travel around for food, but then I would like diets to lean more into biomes and territory, and use migrations specifically to move bigger number of players (unless they are willing to defend the now scarce resources that is left).

[rancid raptor]

you dislike the idea of having to travel for food?

[obsidian jetty]

no, that isn't illogical at all. If you're a stego and your food is in the swamp, when you spawn in the swamp, there's gonna be your food around.

[rancid raptor]

Within your scent range, served to you on a shiny golden plate - no work required, no travel or searching required?

That should be the regular occurance for spawning players, in your opinion?

The concept of traveling and finding your diets would have less meaning that way

[rare fractal]

I think the intent behind that stance is that the necessity to travel massive distances for all dinos as a replacement for resources being more reliably localized to promote competition is not ideal

[rancid raptor]

It's not at all hard to find your diets as is, idk how it is for herbies as I'm a carni player mostly - but as a carni, it's not challenging at all. specially with organs

[obsidian jetty]

honestly...why not? Of course you could spawn the stegos on the other side of the map just to spite them, because they're slow, but what would be the point? As people know stego food is in the swamp, guess what else is going to be around. Things that eat Stegos.

[rancid raptor]

A few minutes of traveling, ultimately increasing your chances of coming across other players - is not ideal?

[rancid raptor]

Why not? Oh yeah, let's eliminate a part of dieting's purpose in making players move - let's eliminate one of the main tasks of a player alltogether, just because why not

[cyan flame]

I mean, if you mean traveling within a biome, that's fine by me. If you mean traveling between biomes, or over longer distances, less so. I want critters to be more "biome locked" most of the time, and only migrate every now and then due to numbers/neccesity.

[rancid raptor]

"Other side of the map" is a huge stretch. Few minutes of travel max.

[rancid raptor]

Specially considering gateway's great leveldeisgn and smaller area

unbelievable level design compared to spiro clearly

[obsidian jetty]

I love how you chose to ignore everything I said apart from the "why not" tbh, but I'm not surprised. yes, why not. If getting food was the only goal in the game, I'd probably agree with you, but it's not. It's one part of the game, an important one, maybe, but there should be other things too. And just because you spawned right next to food doesn't mean you're good until adult.

[rancid raptor]

Repeat

Players should not have diets served to them on golden plates within their scent range.

First off, this will never happen as a regular occurance. devs are too smart to even consider this, specially as they know we already spawn with a full diet

Secondly, it would cause players to move less generally -which would lead to players having lesser chances of seeing other players alltogether etc.

Couple this with, again, gateway's incredible level design - and your problem of "not finding diets and oh my god help me i'm starving" is no longer existent.

This is an assumption, but I also assure you that players will start complaining if your boring "diets served on a golden plate feature" got considered.

[rancid raptor]

It is not "the only goal in the game" to get food, one of the larger goals however is to manage your diet. A lot of your gameplay is literally hunting specific animals/searching specific foods to fullfil your diet, elly

[rare fractal]

Depends on the playable it's context specific, like for a stego, traveling between pumpkins and sumac can take an hour or more depending on the route and circumstance, plus player engagement can actually be increased by making species specific resources more localized to a tighter radius, because the total volume of players of that species will necessarily be more condensed

[rancid raptor]

It's not "just an important one"; it's a major one. Major part of a dino's gameplay is their diet.

Your diet makes you hunt differently, move differently, act differently.

[cyan flame]

Eh... not really honestly. Most of it right now doesn't do that much from what I know.

Or perhaps so, isn't "needed" in a sense.

[rancid raptor]

assure you that making diets even easier, as easy as @obsidian jetty is suggesting at the very least, would be an absolute flop

[rare fractal]

Diets are very low impact, if anything dietary spread decreases player vs player engagements because the playerbase is so spread out

[rare fractal]

Didn't say I supported that suggestion

I haven't even read it yet

[rancid raptor]

It does make you move differently, which is a huge butterfly effect in your course

[rancid raptor]

it's not a suggestion, it's more of a counter argument to

"Lets serve diets on a shiny golden plate by putting even more diets within scent range upon spawn, even though players spawn with a full diet already"

[rancid raptor]

No dude I would argue that diets are high impact

[obsidian jetty]

First...I will not speak for the devs...ever and I don't know what "will" happen either.
Second, no it wouldn't, because you seem to completely ignore carnivores for one, who have to actually look for players and knowing where they are, they'll go there. And you also ignore the fact that not everyone is meant to see everyone else necessarily.

[rare fractal]

Which isn't a suggestion I agree with, just that diets should be less spread out for the sake of causing every animal to travel vast distances instead of making it context specific

A deino for example shouldn't need to go to the mountaintops for a certain AI that spawns there

[rancid raptor]

It affects how a player moves. I don't need to explain how movement acts as a huge butterfly effect regarding your course in your growth.

It affects what you hunt, where you go to hunt - etc.
Also affects you in terms of boosts.

25% health boost, lets get real here. Huge butterfly effect material, I'm not being sarcastic - that is quite literally what it is

[rancid raptor]

a deino is a semi aquatic that isn't supposed to travel on land

[cyan flame]

Does it really? I don't think I've noticed any difference in my gameplay, aside from that now I don't need to go the full circle for diet when grown. I can just stay in one area and go all three of the same diet :p

So I guess... less movement if that counts.

[rancid raptor]

i have such an easy time finding diets as a carnivore.. give me 15 minutes and i'm close to 50% at the very least

idk how you perform as carni but i've never seen other carnis complain about starving

[cyan flame]

Biome lock for diets, not traveling purposes. Leave that to migrations if anything.

[rancid raptor]

You don't notice it, maybe because you're not thinking?

You realize that where you go - how fast you heal and what you hunt is a HUGE butterfly effect to what happens in your growth right?

[obsidian jetty]

I'm not talking about carnis starving, I am talking about people moving around or never seeing any other players.

[cyan flame]

No, because I can compare my gameplay and see that nothing has really changed. I am not exactly playing in a different manner, neither as herbi nor carni. Except maybe being even more limited in my movement because no need to get all three of the diets.

[rancid raptor]

All of what I mentioned serve as butterfly effects, you know this if you know how the butterfly effect works

[cyan flame]

Also not sure why you're only focused on growth, since diets are a part throughout all of the gameplay.

[cyan flame]

Oh I know how it works. But I've yet to see any noticable difference in experience or result. Not everything have massive changes.

[rancid raptor]

Lets say you chose to hunt tenos. You go where you recall you see alot of tenos usually. After hunting tenos, you go for a water drink. In that particular location, you end up getting lunged - just because you happened to hunt tenos prior to drinking

Or lets say you hunt a particular teno, one thing leads to another and you get stunned, other tenos arrive and etc etc. Or lets say you run into a stego after getting damaged by a teno, which is hidden behind a bush. you don't see it before it tailsweeps you

this would have never happened unless you decided to hunt tenos particularly, according to your diet

ETC. You cannot, at all, deny that diets lead to huge butterfly effects in your gameplay. That is how the butterfly effect works. It's not just a theory, it's something within science that proves how small irrelevant things leads to significant changes in your course

I should not have to explain this bs to you, diets ALWAYS have some sort of butterfly effect on your gameplay

3 different examples i gave you now

[rancid raptor]

I never said diets were not a part throughout all of gameplay, that is what i've been saying this whole time lmao. It affects all of your gameplay, butterfly

[rancid raptor]

Not a problem i have

[cyan flame]

Okay, but all of that could happen before the diet change. If you're arguing a change from before we had diets, to having diets, then I'd agree. But I was under the belief we were talking about current state of diets and so on.

[rancid raptor]

Yeah it could

Yeah all of it did happen before a diet change, but that was 100% purely from your own decision

Now your decision is influenced by your diet

In a way, your diets are in control of your decisions. They do have an influence on you, which in turn leads to a larger butterfly effect

Diets affect what you hunt, your movement, and your whole course of gameplay. Always. That is the concept of butterfly effect

And this is why it would be a significant change if we decided to make diets even easier
let alone having players spawn scentrange to one of their diets while already having their hexagons filled up @obsidian jetty

[cyan flame]

Depends on what you spawn in range of vs what you have filled. Since getting the same in all three spots isn't as useful as a varied diet, at least not for growth purposes.

[rancid raptor]

Aren't most people aiming for 50% as soon as they spawn?

[cyan flame]

Depends on what they play as I'd say.

As omni, no. As stego, no. Stego gets to viable size quickly with new growth. Omni grows in an hour with 30%.

[obsidian jetty]

I almost never do that

[cyan flame]

Plenty good enough in both cases, for slightly different reasons.

[rancid raptor]

regardless

[cyan flame]

I don't mind them having easy access to their diets, I'd rather limit the amount of diet so it's worth something.

[obsidian jetty]

you're like a broken record, good sir...doesn't make me agree...and I won't just because you keep repeating it

[rancid raptor]

you want players to see each other more often, yet suggest something that would ultimately lead to the opposite

[cyan flame]

More food competition would be nice, rather than just having people move around.

[obsidian jetty]

I don't

[rancid raptor]

You know, it's not just moving Erik

You're moving, potentially meeting dangers - potentially seeing other players, maybe meeting a mate on the way. Maybe finding points of interest, maybe finding a different diet and change your mind on what diet you want.
ETC.

@obsidian jetty No offense but your suggestion would make people complain a lot lol

[obsidian jetty]

my suggestion?

[obsidian jetty]

I didn't suggest anything

[rancid raptor]

https://tenor.com/view/dondi-the-isle-dext-pizza-eating-gif-21869494

[sage yew]

whats the current matter?

[obsidian jetty]

all I did was saying that I don't see a problem with dinos spawning in the area they're supposed to be in, even if that means that there would be food within scent range

[cyan flame]

I didn't say none of those things weren't there. I said I prefer if other things were the focus. You can still have some of those even in a biome, especially the whole finding potential future friends, as well as dangers and so on.

[rancid raptor]

Yeah there should be more to the gameplay aside from just moving around, but when you say "Just moving" it's as if it's portrayed as traveling without nothing happening

[obsidian jetty]

yes...exactly. I said that it would not be illogical for a dino to have food within scent range when they spawn in the biome they live in

[cyan flame]

He didn't really suggest anything. He just pointed out that if you spawn in the biome where you have food, you'll have food nearby. This seems reasonable enough.

[rancid raptor]

moving could lead you to die, which could lead another player to have more fun - etc

https://tenor.com/view/haha-mickael-jackson-queendugif-ahah-hehe-gif-13642339

[rancid raptor]

diet within scent range

[icy lion]

At this point, you're preferring to be condescending towards others instead of conversing with them. I suggest you change your attitude

[cyan flame]

That was because you seemed to be focused on having players have to move to get their diets, since you're so opposed to letting them find it "right there". To which I disagree, because I don't see diets being for the purpose of moving, but for biome locking. As such, there's no issue having all your diets "right there", because that just means anything eating you know where to find you, and you're liable to find others to compete with as well, and so on. Sure, you can add that you need to move around, but I see that as something migrations will do for the purpose of limiting numbers in a given area and similar things.

[rancid raptor]

They were talking about diet within scent range and now they said food, how am i being condescending I don't understand
That was never my intention

[obsidian jetty]

well of course it's going to be their diet, if they're supposed to live there...would make no sense for their diet to spawn outside of their biome now, would it?

[icy lion]

Repeatedly pinging someone, spitting their words back at them, refusing to listen to their comments, outright insulting them?

That's condescending in my book

[rancid raptor]

Do you mean I insulted them when I said people would complain about their suggestion

we're pinging each other

[cyan flame]

I think it's more so that you have a habit of... not being the most diplomatic person here.

[rancid raptor]

it's #general-feedback-discussion discussion i'm not spamming them pings as if they're not in the conversation

[sage yew]

Is it currently about this?

btw. only works for herbis, as carnis currently can't smell their prey
but what is the issue if its made in such a way, that you are not necessarily dependent on luck or map knowledge to survive your spawn

[rancid raptor]

I don't insult people, I'm just very direct

It's not by definition condescending unless you say something condescending

[obsidian jetty]

yes, it is about this

[rancid raptor]

You don't really need to be very map dependant to survive your spawn though

Even as a new player

You run around to open areas, use your scent

That's the way I've been doing it, only time I use vulnora is when I need to go to my favorite waters

[cyan flame]

Spawning players in their preferred biome seems like the logical choice.

Since you want them to be there in the first place.

[rancid raptor]

That's not bad but regularly spawning them within scent's range of their diet is a stretch

If it's so often that it is expected, more so

[rare fractal]

I'd argue that the existence of more compact diets is what would keep them in more predictable locations consistently, leading to a more reliable hunting experience and increasing the engagement of players on average

needing to travel really just fills empty time

[sage yew]

because that's where they been to begin with ...if you follow the logic of being born and your playable actually lived before you have chosen him to play. Seems reasonable to find him in "his" biome

[cyan flame]

That too. But more so that diets/food in part was meant to "biome lock", especially herbis because that's one way you can mitigate mixherding between things that really shouldn't work together. And it makes sense that you'd spawn in an area where you have a good chance to survive, not just food wise but really, environment wise too I'd say.

[rancid raptor]

What abt this tho

[sage yew]

but what does biome in this context actually mean, are biomes more defined now?

[cyan flame]

I'd say that they are more so in Gateway yes.

From what I've seen at least.

[rare fractal]

My proposed model for diets being more compact affords players literally all of these benefits without taking as long, if you wanna go outside of your preferred biome to go visit specific places feel free to, nothing besides your diets are stopping you

[sage yew]

could also mean that somewhere near you are just some rabbits that you can hunt

[obsidian jetty]

Yes the biomes are more defined on gateway. And I'd argue you'd find a mate easier within your respective biome than outside of it. And you can go explore at any time. Ain't nobody stopping you.

[rancid raptor]

For what reason would you travel unless you had diets that needed you to? In that case, the whole concept of this is super rare

[rare fractal]

Because you want to visit those places, why else would you go to points of interest unless they interested you

[cyan flame]

Migrations. As in, when the food runs low in your area and you have too many people to support.

[rare fractal]

Again the need to travel should be addressed case by case, some animals should travel a lot, some should barely travel at all

[cyan flame]

There's your reason for moving around.

[rare fractal]

That too...the region of localization can change

[rancid raptor]

Yeah that will be agood replacer

[sage yew]

that's a pretty weak argument tho, as places are only for a limited amount of time actually interesting, mostly only for the first time and after that they become boring

a good game design gives you always a good reason to go somewhere, or to stay somewhere

[rare fractal]

It's an ironclad argument, the context of the point is that you have the agency to visit whatever location that you want with the only limiting factor being your lack of dietary foods, so if you still want to visit that location it's probably because you want to

There can't be any other reason why you'd want to

[rancid raptor]

https://tenor.com/view/dio-jo-jo-ho-ho-gif-19278837

🌜

[sage yew]

okay, but how often have you visited places more often than once? Sure, you can, because you can walk. But without a reason you only do it as often as you want and practically it's mostly just one time

[rare fractal]

That's fine...the natural result would be the player playing their animal where their animal is designed to be played...which is the entire purpose of biomes and migration

[sage yew]

I don't even know if I'm disagreeing on what you say, or if I share your opinion ...sorry, I'm a bit confused as this conversation was hard to follow

[rare fractal]

I think you originally identified a fairly inocuous statement I made without the context of the statement as a broader argument against traveling being an element of gameplay...which it wasn't.
We probably agree based on what I've seen you say in this conversation

[sage yew]

But, if we discussed a book in school, there was always this one question: what was the intention of the author?

In this example, is the gamedesign the author and you yourslef are the protagonist of that specific story

what are your goals, what are your motivations. This needs answers by the gamedesign

[rare fractal]

That's an entirely different conversation

That requires goals to be established

[sage yew]

but arent diets supposed to motivate you?

[rare fractal]

The most basic one is to simply exist

[obsidian jetty]

And because the answers to those questions are going to be different for every single one of us, we're in here debating every day 😉

[rare fractal]

No they facilitate other parts of your gameplay

[rare fractal]

Not particularly, ideally most games have an idea of what the player should be pursuing

Whether or not players on an individual basis want to engage with those goals comes down to how much each player enjoys the game in totality

Even minecraft technically has a linear progression

[sage yew]

lets assume, for the sake of discussion, that the player is enjoying the game

[obsidian jetty]

Well, the main goal is survival, right? Becoming an Elder and all that. But we have very different opinions on what that should look like, how easy or hard that should be or how we'd like to get there.

[rare fractal]

Well...I wouldn't know since I haven't seen either of you argue on that topic xD

We might all agree in borderline uniformity

I wouldn't know

[obsidian jetty]

maybe, that would be boring tho...^^ And the bigger the group the more unlikely 😉

[rare fractal]

Typically that's how people work...but personally I find sensible consensus overwhelmingly satisfying

[sage yew]

I still don't know if it's meant to be like that. Currently for sure, but new features are at the beginning easily accessible, simply for testing reasons

But diets already motivate me to not go for every kill, because this diet wouldn't be beneficial (as it was in u5.5) or target specific species, because to complete a diet gives a good buff

that's fairly good reasons to do stuff, or to go somewhere
and "it's own biome" does not mean you get all 3 diets on a silver plate, where you simply have to pick something

[rare fractal]

Depends on the animal...all 3 diets existing in relatively close proximity can make it incredibly easy for your predators to weed out the juvis and subs before they reach adulthood

I don't presume that close proximity equates to ease of access in this game

[cyan flame]

Diets should still be difficult to get, for plenty of reasons. That's a given, the whole "your own biome" just means I and maybe some others believe that diets primary purpose is to help place the critters in the ecosystem and their niches/areas (as well as to mitigate mixing somewhat.).

[rare fractal]

Because it's a multiplayer landscape with not a single player lacking another who wants them dead

[rare fractal]

Also that, it helps localize playables to prevent niche overlap and partition this already massive roster better

[sage yew]

it feels like, people would get too comfortable in their "own biome" and at the end is every species basically isolated - but again, I don't know if I get it currently right

[cyan flame]

With the roster we have, I sincerely doubt it'd be one species in each biome. This is more so that you have, maybe "subsets" of groupings of herbis and then the carnis that are good at hunting them on top of that. Something like that maybe?

[sage yew]

maybe

so "biome" means here, that you are provided with at least 1 diet?
and everything else emits through gameplay dynamics

[icy flare]

My goal is get in be Dino and kill some stuff . I bet everyone has his own reasons to play this game

[sage yew]

that's definitely not what I've meant

[icy flare]

U said that most games give the player something to do . But I love that This game has not these features

[sage yew]

yes, I said that, but that is a completely different thing. As no one cares for the reason why you started to play this evening

I was talking about reasons inside the game.
Food bar goes down? Go hunt
Water bar goes down? go for water

these are gamedesign elements that are meant to act as your motivation

[faint folio]

@abstract belfry Hi, welcome 🙂 I think the main reason carno doesn't have a grapple is the same reason deino and Utah don't have a charge-- playstyle differentiation.

Deino is your passive hazard (for better or for worse) - he relies on a sudden short distance ambush via lunge and grapple to kill.

Utah/Omni is a pursuit/pack predator-- specializing in endurance hunts and bait and switch tactics to tactically apply bleed and dismount without taking damage.

Carno is a punch-down pursuit predator-- he uses his charge to catch up, deal crippling damage and knockdown prey, giving him time to finish the job with bites before his prey can recover. (And remember, charge does drain stamina over time, just like the other special attacks)

These specials are one of many factors that allow the different playables to feel different. In legacy, all predators had an "ambush" mechanic that buffed speed like the carno charge (without knockdown or inherent damage), but imo it makes playing different dinos feel a bit too similar (a rex and an allo and a Utah more or less fight with the exact same strategy, excepting what size/speed of prey they can target). Another thing to consider is that there are many dinos that will be added in the future, some of which may be carno sized with a grapple ability

[rare fractal]

I think you're thinking of biomes a bit too exclusively, within a biome you can support any number of species intrinsic to the area, so lets just say for example that we have 2-3 species that literally never leave a certain biome outside of migration contexts, then you have 2-3 animals that predominantly spend their time in the same biome but need to venture out for dietary reasons, then you have 3-4 animals that just pass through but have at least 1 reason to come by a certain biome....so you can have loads of interaction within a biome with a few fixed species within it that can change based on the migratory pattern as well...plus it is pretty inevitable that some dinos sorta need to come into little contact with other dinos for the sake of maintaining a niche to some degree...like unless cerato is just REALLY fast, it's gonna struggle existing alongside allo for example....or perhaps allo would struggle to exist alongside alberto...etc...I'm not making any definitive claims on those animals balancing they're just arbitrary examples, the point being that partitioning is going to get increasingly necessary as the roster expands, and having some dinos with very few reasons to leave a certain area can aid in that dramatically, alongside affording some dinos intrinsic benefits (like herreras existing in a highly wooded area for mobility or carno living in the plains to compensate for it's weaknesses)

[rare fractal]

Plus a grapple would be incredibly lame to play as and against for carno

[sage yew]

thanks for explaining it!

[rare fractal]

👍
I tend to have a lot of thoughts when it comes to niche partitioning in this game considering the eventual 60 playables plus strains plus humans

[proud coral]

Who said niche partitioning

👃

[sage yew]

It was interesting, as I have not given so much thought into it
I personally are more into the specific mechanics of it and there goes mostly my whole attention. But it's nice to learn about different aspects

[cyan flame]

I would consider "biome" the place where you have two, if not all three diets in vincinity, plus an envrionment designed for you to thrive in. Such as plains for a carno. Or swamp for a teno (I'd like teno to be more semiaquatically oriented so, but that's just my take on it). I'd rather work on making diets harder to get, not due to moving around, but for spawn rates, food values, competition in different ways, and so on. Migrations then add that "right now there's so little of your food in this biome, you need to move or fight for what's left vs everyone else." or similar situations. So if you're solo, you can stay, if you got a nice little herd going, you need to move or well, cull your numbers.

[proud coral]

Mmmhm, competition and plants actually feeling like a limited resource would be very nice.

[cyan flame]

That sounds pretty good!

[faint folio]

Yeah with that many it's going to be critical to have careful niche partitioning, especially since many animals planned for the isle are grabbed and dropped piecemeal from different irl ecosystems, often resulting in the situation where you have a ton of animals that irl would occupy the same niche/role in an ecosystem (Utah, rex, dilo, and giga were all the apex predator of their respective ecosystems at the time they lived)

[rare fractal]

The specifics come down to said case by case basis, which is harder to grasp without a more comprehensive perspective of how each animal interacts with all the other animals...it's harder to identify in a hypothetical manner, so this is about as far as I can take it xD

[sage yew]

indeed, as resource limitation is one of the main aspects of survival
nothing is plenty, everything is spares

[rare fractal]

Yeah the vast majority of animals in the game are both heavily modified from their original counterparts and picked and chosen across time and location, they aren't designed to go together intrinsically and some of that will bleed over

[proud coral]

Even when a plant does run out.....there's like 50 more nearby. Hopefully with Gateway and migrations, that's changed :3

[sage yew]

yea, I still think sometimes in these "lets spawn center, there is everything" ways

[faint folio]

Not to mention scenarios where two playables are overly powerful if they herd together (teno/stego or pachy/stego for example)

[rare fractal]

Well...I wouldn't go that fundamental with it, you can still have survival with certain resources not being very limited, like for example, water sources are dangerous to go to because of potential predators in or around them, which fills the gap with that simply being a tedious task you need to complete

Instead of making the water literally dry up as you drink it, as that would lead to a whole plethora of balancing issues the game simply wouldn't be able to account for

Dry and wet "seasons" cover that much better than it being player instigated

[sage yew]

okay, maybe I was a bit too one dimensional there

[rare fractal]

I figured you meant it more comprehensively, I just thought I'd clarify for the sake of clarifying xD

[proud coral]

Dry and Wet Seasons would be amazing. I know droughts will be a thing, but I hope they consider the actual seasons in their entirety ;o;

[faint folio]

Exactly. Having some animals soft locked to biomes so they don't really have much interaction is one way to enable greater overall roster variety while giving everything a unique role

[sage yew]

water going out is a good reason to migrate tho

[rare fractal]

Mhm, I just don't want any more "deinos" for a lack of better terms, where visiting a certain resources has a random chance of guaranteed death

This wouldn't be an issue if deinos had methods of detection but YKNOW

Can't have that ig

[faint folio]

Oh absolutely. Imo death should be skill based and not so much dished out to random chance. I'd rather know that dying was due to me messing up (or another player doing particularly well) than just wrong place, wrong time

[rare fractal]

That we certainly agree on...in a game like this you should never...or at least almost never...die because you unfortunately happened upon a circumstance you had no chance of surviving...permadeath is uhhh...it raises the stakes

[proud coral]

Method of detection is a finnicky pickle sadly. Give method: "Great, the ambush predator magically gives itself away because". Don't give method: "Great, ambush predator has no way to counter it."

;o;

[rare fractal]

Just add underwater foliage and obstacles in places where clearer water exists....also...deino should not be making consistent ambush kills regardless

Failure rates for that animal should be higher than almost everything else

[cyan flame]

Method of juking better. Quick movement when eating/drinking, if you move, it "cancels" any impact, such as lunge or pin or similar.

[rare fractal]

That would be neat...problem being that you can't give this to everything deino can lunge because of how much distance it covers

[proud coral]

Mmmhm. I also like the idea of water being disturbed much more easily the bigger you are so that you can't quickly reposition n' such without ripples.

[abstract belfry]

I agree with this most of the time the death is completely random or because you don’t have the time to run halfway across the map to find a shallow bit of water to safely drink from
Also thanks for the info before I just think it’s funky/funny that after knocking someone over carnos have no interesting way to work of it besides spamming the attack button unlike raptors that get bleed and Dino’s that drag you into hell

[cyan flame]

For smaller things, let them get actual movement. For larger things, let them just turn their side. "canceling" effect applies in both cases.

[rare fractal]

Water in many facets needs a lot of love mechanically, this is certainly one of them

[proud coral]

A "lose like half your stam but jump back deer style" method of juking would be nice.

[rare fractal]

Even if it looks stupid I'll take shoulder checking a deino over losing 5 hours of progression

[cyan flame]

Pretty much. Movement for those that are small and agile enough, just a turn/shoulder check for larger things.

[proud coral]

https://tenor.com/view/scatter-deer-run-gif-15405530

[rare fractal]

I don't even really think the stam chunking is necessary at all...it has no relevance to the matchup so I'd just leave it down to timing with a smaller stam cost

[cyan flame]

Yep. Just have stego turn its side. Have omni or dryo jump. Have carno take a step or two.

[proud coral]

For Dryo, it must SPROING into the air first. Because.

[proud coral]

That could work too

[cyan flame]

Obviously!

Base it on the danger call jump!

[rare fractal]

Teno jumps down the deinos throat and pilots it from the inside out from spite of not being given a dive mechanic like it rightfully deserves

[proud coral]

[cyan flame]

Hah! Nah, teno would also do something like carno, a turn/few steps or so.

But yes, teno dive would be cool!

[proud coral]

Teno smacks Deino firmly on the snout as it stops and feels shamed

[rare fractal]

Go full barry and tailslam it's mouth shut

[proud coral]

If they could make 8T Deino feel 8T with ripples being easy to make, wakes being made when sprint swimming, and being a lot less swift in the water maybe it's just me but the adult feels too fast in the water might make me like it more.

So no more quickly running along the bottom to reposition and follow stuff on land. You gotta commit

[rare fractal]

Deino does handle better than a speedboat

[proud coral]

I wanna feel like this GIF when I arise as an adult Deino

https://tenor.com/view/flying-dutchman-gif-26505564

Just BUNCHA water and noise

The weight

The requirement of actually picking a spot

[rare fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/splash-whale-breaching-next-to-boat-gif-14689867

[sage yew]

one thing for deinos
no more vision above the water line, by rotating the camera out of the water ...I hate this >_>

[proud coral]

I actually thought that's what they were gonna go for. I'm all for trying it out :3

Make it like WoWS' submarines I know.... where you can only see above the waterline if you're visible in some way and the camera automatically KA-DUNKS into the water when you submerge fully.

[sage yew]

this
If you want to have a clear view, you'll need to... I forgot the word for reverse-submerge

upmerge?

[proud coral]

Example of what I meant :3

It must have the splash effect as well because

[proud coral]

Surface

[sage yew]

yes, this one!

[proud coral]

Which would be a lot nicer if Deinos could also do what real gators do and just peek with their heads

Currently, our upper bodies are fully visible ;c

[sage yew]

I've tried it so many times, but once stationary, you just sink down

https://media.gettyimages.com/id/1223577457/de/foto/low-angle-view-of-blue-sea-against-sky.webp?s=612x612&w=gi&k=20&c=Nz3Ag_wlK17ot5AY3oAB_vMgwVbvlIelD-lN_Z-GvcA=

total reflections could be a thing too
once deinos can't enjoy a perfect view, it will lead to not being unfair, or "unlucky" when you get lunged, like it is right now, because he invested a lot of effort to get you

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Total_Internal_Refraction_diver.svg/1280px-Total_Internal_Refraction_diver.svg.png

[proud coral]

It also feels a lot more satisfying to properly detect someone rather than just seeing them normally. Like finding someone purely with SONAR. Deino really is just a submarine, huh

[sage yew]

indeed

indeed

[feral solstice]

I’d say every semi-aquatic should honestly

[proud coral]

[feral solstice]

It gives them so many advantages that they need imo

Beipi poking its head out of the water to observe the riversides and see if it’s safe, without revealing itself too much

[limber hull]

i disagree

beipis naturally float up, they can't do what deinos do

[proud coral]

What if I tie them to the ground

[feral solstice]

I don’t care about realism honestly
Just do it

[limber hull]

i'd rather they don't

[feral solstice]

It just sounds nice to have imo

Especially how fragile beipi is

[limber hull]

i'd rather aquatics all be unique

[proud coral]

Actually he brings up a good point, I don't think it'd actually be possible to just float beneath the surface since it automatically floats up

Unless you just constantly spammed C which sounds annoying

[limber hull]

i dont want to see suchos in the depths sticking their heads up as if they're meant to be there

[proud coral]

I still want water crouching at least ;o;

Which miiiight need some water changes in general

I don't get why so few games allow it

Only one I can think of off hand is Crysis

[feral solstice]

Forgot the bot snipes anyone who says “f’ing” lol

[proud coral]

Like this kinda

[feral solstice]

Anyways.
You could very well add a function to where clicking a specific key causes you to float up and stick just your head out.

[proud coral]

Still wading depth for Sucho but ye can duck under it

[feral solstice]

And I doubt adding a small mechanic for every semi-aquatic would ruin their uniqueness

[proud coral]

I still firmly stand by letting em all dive/submerge in some manner honestly

[limber hull]

i'd just rather semi-aquatics have unique interactions with the water dependent on niche and actual environment

[feral solstice]

That’s like saying they aren’t unique because each one can swim lol

[limber hull]

if a sucho wades shallows, why would it need to also need to be prepared to do some periscope thing

[feral solstice]

Agree to disagree, I guess. Some things don’t need it but Im still firm to say that most should have one lol

[limber hull]

i still firmly stand by it being more interesting if some semi-aquatics can't, like cherius and sucho

[proud coral]

https://tenor.com/view/boris-the-animal-mib-men-in-black-lets-agree-disagree-gif-13732230

[feral solstice]

I still disagree

[proud coral]

I finally have a use for the GIF

[limber hull]

i really don't see the value in a shallow wader deviating into an ecosystem where it shouldn't be and still being favoured

[feral solstice]

Just because it can dive doesn’t mean it has to be good at it.
You could very well make it vary between playables

[proud coral]

That's what I'd do :3

[limber hull]

so what, sucho drowns easy?

i dont see how that would make more sense

[proud coral]

I personally wouldn't have it like that 😮

[limber hull]

either
A: Sucho is a bad swimmer
B: Sucho drowns fast
C: Sucho is an good swimmer above water, but the moment it submerges its head, it completely forgets how swimming works and slows to a snail's pace

How exactly do you make it "bad at diving" without making either entirely unrealistic or entirely unfun

[proud coral]

The way I would like to do it (also inspired by Shark's ol' idea for it) would be very simple; Beip but fatter. 😛

So you can dunk down like a bear to snag something but, without a lot of effort, you'll just float back up.

Like how bears will grab salmon n' such that way

No latching of course

[feral solstice]

I wouldn’t mind if it varied like that tbh

Beipi floating up the fastest but taking a moderate time to descend

Deino being kinda the middle

Then Sucho, descending incredibly quickly but floating up slower

[proud coral]

Bary is more "Kurplunk haha now I swim!" Sucho would be more like "KU-DUNK ahha gotcha, fish aaaaand I'm back up"

[clever lion]

The hypos going to com back?

[feral solstice]

Then you have the other semiaquatics which could be in between what was stated above

[proud coral]

Eventually, but not for a long while.

Probably

[feral solstice]

Im not sure if teno should be in between beipi and Deino or not, though

[limber hull]

Here's the thing though, compared to other semi-aquatics (in this case, just deino), beipi drowns FAST from what we've seen. Faster than teno

[proud coral]

Really? That's interesting. Though that might be due to it not properly being released. 😮

[feral solstice]

I doubt it has gone through 100% balance testing yet. Not sure though

[proud coral]

Mmhm

[limber hull]

it seems to catch its breath very fast though

i imagine its intentional, its not meant to be down there all the time

its meant to go down, do some stuff, come back up

rinse and repeat

[proud coral]

Makes me more curious about foraging then

If you can only stay down there a couple seconds, that might make foraging annoying then again we know basically nothing of how exactly foraging works

[feral solstice]

We do. I’m pretty sure it was stated that beipi has to latch to begin foraging (or grazing)

So if that’s the case, it’ll definitely become annoying

[proud coral]

Well yeah but like I'm curious as to how fast it is or how effective it is at filling food

[feral solstice]

Ah

If it’s foraging I’d assume its equal to grazing on land, except you can actually fill up with it

[proud coral]

And if it's essentially just grazing but underwater, that sounds very underwhelming to me <:/ I very VERY rarely use grazing since you have to basically be willingly letting yourself starve to actually make use of it

[feral solstice]

Same braincells

[proud coral]

[limber hull]

the rate at which oxygen drops in gameplay makes me believe it might have 2 minutes of breathing time

much less than the 15 deino gets

[proud coral]

Oh 2 minutes sounds fine 😛 I thought it was seriously like "you got 10 seconds, go"

[daring talon]

yes platy
near undodgeable oneshots fromo resourcecamping creatures that are difficult to determine the location of are not fun

[slim halo]

What

@daring talon also did he even ram you? Because it seems like he just ran towards you, didn't even touch you at all, and you flew like it was a direct body shot

[daring talon]

thats a ram lol
(60 ping btw in the top right)

[slim halo]

So basically he rammed nothing, you flew.

What

Ram is more used than biting 😭

[daring talon]

same with pounce

none of the current creatures have biting as their main use except for ptera and well that doesnt count

[slim halo]

Well

Utah pounce isn't even viable, and they're bleeders, they'll mostly die by almost everything they hunt without pouncing

[daring talon]

(Hypsi and dryo run away with barf or dodge respectively)

(deino lunge is 1 shot why wouldn't you only use it and just leave stegos alone)

[slim halo]

Well, lunge is for ambushing, deinos will mostly just bite u, (mainly adults)

And they normally lunge near the bank or while ur in the water

But carno

[daring talon]

I like how most fights are just who can 1 shoto the other guy

[slim halo]

Well the roster is pretty small

Carno won't one shot everything exactly, just will hit u from across the map that's all

Utah needs it's pounce, herbies need their secondary attack ofc, ptera is a scavenger, so yknow. Deinos don't exactly spam lunge. And carno.

Carno already has decent bite damage

But ram seems to be more spammed

[daring talon]

I just dont like the cheap fight winners

[slim halo]

I liked it where you actually had to time it right, and not just press a button and oop you're dead from a mile away!!

[abstract belfry]

What are your thoughts on stego fights then?

[slim halo]

Tbh

[daring talon]

you cannot fight stego

[abstract belfry]

Lol

[daring talon]

unless you are deino or another stego

[slim halo]

Stego vs deino on land goes to stego ofc, but stegos will legit swipe deinos in the water.

[daring talon]

(If everyone is a grownass adult)

[slim halo]

I think stegos should have an attack speed debuff and stam drain buff slightly) if un water

[abstract belfry]

I do find it funny that stegos will legit stand in the water swinging their tails like a game of golf

[slim halo]

Not fair if stego wins in deinos turf.

[daring talon]

Deino also shouldnt uh

get to walk a mile inland

[cyan flame]

A stego that goes swimming dies to a deino. So it does not win in deino turf. Shoreline is still standing on solid ground, so it's still more land than water.

[daring talon]

and kick a pack of utahs/carnos off their food

[cyan flame]

Also stego can be handled quite well by a pair of deinos, most likely killing it or at least sending it running.

[slim halo]

Not from what I've seen

[daring talon]

if its swimming it cant tail swing

that stego is beyond screwed

[slim halo]

Y e s

[cyan flame]

To be fair, most deino players are utterly atrocious, even worse than omni players. :p

[slim halo]

Ehh, stegos aren't better

[rare fractal]

The deino's you've observed were bad then

It's like a pair of carnos struggling against a teno rn

[slim halo]

I wouldn't say that

[rare fractal]

Not sure why, it's literally the only explanation

[slim halo]

ok

[cyan flame]

Lunge it in the water, use the "water boost", you have added damage as well. Do that, then block the stego and just go ham with alt bite/bite on head. At the very least by the time it reaches shore, it is in no shape to stand and fight, so if you can pull a second lunge from the shoreline there, you can probably finish it off assuming it's not under stun immunity still.

Also omnis can hunt stego as well.

[daring talon]

I do not like the apex carnivore having a safezone from everything except itself that also lets it 1shot normal creatures

[rare fractal]

I mean deino rn can statistically outdamage stego if adjustments are made throughout damage, you shouldn't be losing even alone

[slim halo]

Someone mentioned something about deinos hitbox having a seizure when fighting stego

[barren crater]

You do realise that deinos can body block in water?

[slim halo]

what?

[cyan flame]

Both stego and deno are too "OP" for the roster, though deino is the worse offender in general.

[rare fractal]

Haven't observed or heard about that before

[barren crater]

They can block stegos from swimming across

[rare fractal]

Only back in U3

[slim halo]

Okay

[slim halo]

Yes?

[barren crater]

So they should be able to kill stegos swimming. Any decent deino would do that

[slim halo]

I'm not saying that

??

[cyan flame]

That's because the hitbox is wonky as can be on carno charge right now. It'll be fixed, and then you'll have to actually aim and it'll be doable to juke. You still can juke, just that you're liable to still get a tail hit (not terrible even for an omni but frustrating none the less).

[daring talon]

By that I assume you mean "You can see and outrun stegos. Deinos resource camp and 1shot nearly everything with their ability."

[slim halo]

Deinos hitbox has always been wonky from what I've seen

[barren crater]

You said that you wouldn't say that the deinos weren't bad???????? But if they're letting stegos get across a river, they're pretty bad

[daring talon]

(which is true and i agree)

[rare fractal]

Lunge is pretty bad, but only because it's enormous, besides that deino's hitboxes are pretty tight

[burnt bone]

the hitbox quite literally extends like 1-2 meters on either side of the carno, and lag doesnt do it any favors

[daring talon]

havent been sniped by a deino bite
the lunge yeah but not the bite

[slim halo]

That's not..

[rare fractal]

Yeah getting lunge sniped is....alarmingly common

[barren crater]

That's exactly what you meant in that context bruh

[daring talon]

i think it should at the very least have to be a body hit to grab you with the lunge
would make the tip of the tail hits that are probably 90% of lunges less common

[slim halo]

No it's not.

[rare fractal]

Bird is still correct even if you're talking a stego vs 2 deinos on a shore

If you bodyblock the stego on land during damage it can't escape and WILL die

[slim halo]

I hope in the future deinos can lunge certain parts of the body near the shoreline

[cyan flame]

Sort of yes.

[rare fractal]

Just form a V with your bodies after the first lunge, turn and cycle the lunges

[cyan flame]

I was talking about carno, though deino lunge might have issues too for all I know.

[barren crater]

2 deinos should bring down a stego by the shore and in water

[slim halo]

Correct about what I meant? Then no-

[rare fractal]

Only if the stego stays

[barren crater]

100%

[rare fractal]

I don't think stegos merely going to drink with the existence of 2 deinos should auto kill the stego

[barren crater]

You don't follow a stego inland

[cyan flame]

Yep. It needs fixing. Right now carno is similar to omni when pounce was broken. Hard to make good balance decisions when something is just outright broken.

[slim halo]

Carnos hitbox is something

[cyan flame]

If you got four adults and it's a solo stego, you do ^^

[slim halo]

Sometimes deinos hitbox will break, not render, or just does this weird thing I'm not sure how to explain

[daring talon]

see - #general-feedback message for carno charge dumb

[cyan flame]

If you also have another three subs that can run up and harass the stego, you do so even more.

[feral solstice]

I’d rather we fix carnos hitbox and then see how it plays with the turn rate AFTERWARDS, instead of 100% reverting everything just because “mah ambusher Carno”

[abstract belfry]

Is that why whenever I try to glance a charge I end up getting completely stopped? Body collision seems iffy as hell

[rare fractal]

And subs can chase down tenos on land...so yknow

[cyan flame]

Correct. Same way we needed to fix omni pounce working, before having a look at bleed and all that.

[barren crater]

Reminds me of that one guy that got swarmed lmao

[slim halo]

Magnetic pounce

[rare fractal]

Well it's also like.....ambush carno is titanically stupid

[feral solstice]

Correct

[rare fractal]

Why would we ever wanna go back to that

[feral solstice]

Same logic either way

[rare fractal]

Not that it ever was one but still

[slim halo]

[daring talon]

Me personally run dwn stuff in the open carno would be cooler

[rare fractal]

Actual cheetah carno instead of...idk...cannonball carno?

[feral solstice]

Pursuit predator Carnotaurus is best carnotaurus

[slim halo]

I'm think I'm just gonna nope out before anything passive aggressive happens because, opinions.

[daring talon]

the cannonball cannibal

[cyan flame]

I've had it happen to me. There's a local deino mafia of black and white deinos on eu6 where I've ended up playing stego the most. They like to give it a try every now and then, but since I know that there's almost always 3 or more adults and some subs, I tend to retreat early on. They still sometimes almost get me due to the subs being able to follow for ages :p But then I do risk it by drinking in the river I know they like to hang out in xD

[rare fractal]

We've spotted an ambush carno supporter! Rally the troops!

https://tenor.com/view/dark-souls-gif-23705685

[cyan flame]

Not if you are to believe every feedback about reverting carno/how carno charge was fine and how it's terrible now ^^

[feral solstice]

People unironically want ambusher carnotaurus even though gateways plains are going to look like this…

[daring talon]

non ambush carno would probably make utah more doable

[feral solstice]

Sounds like a viable playstyle

[daring talon]

due to utah being able to not get 1 shot

[cyan flame]

No need to worry, we're pretty chill :p

[slim halo]

I legit didn't even say anything about carno just now, this is exactly what im talking about.

[barren crater]

Deino is hard though. I promise. 10 deinos in one area thriving is such a stupid thing

[rare fractal]

This is why I all but ignore feedback channels for the time being

[rare fractal]

My dude no fear, I'm hard memeing

[feral solstice]

I despise the thought of ambusher Carno, not the people hard agreeing with it

[slim halo]

Just stop and don't bother mentioning me again, it's really annoying.

Respectfully.

[daring talon]

trust me guys i ate 1 elite fish and was adult before i starved and i have a safezone that noone but other deinos can harm me in trust me guys its hard to grow

[cyan flame]

Yes, it's obvious that deino players are struggling. xD But yes, too many deinos, too many stegos too at times.

[slim halo]

[feral solstice]

It’s like a bunch of political parties lmfao

You have the ambusher Carno supporters and then you have the pursuit predator supporters

[rare fractal]

Alright

[feral solstice]

And then they decide to jump each other based on their thought processes

[feral solstice]

https://tenor.com/view/zoolander-walkoff-ben-stiller-owen-wilson-gif-5216128

[slim halo]

Stop.

[daring talon]

[feral solstice]

Good argument. However, your mother.

Anyways I must scram and protect this world from the dangers of AMBUSHER CARNOTAURUS

[abstract belfry]

I kinda feel like Carno is gonna be seriously outmatched when/if larger carnivores pop up a glorified velociraptor that can’t kill anything but little things by itself a easy target for the bigger guys to harass if he has low stamina ever

[daring talon]

I mean thats legacy carno

low stam to die

[barren crater]

Legacy carno had almost 4 minutes of stamina

It just had bad stam regen

[abstract belfry]

Big oof

[daring talon]

yeah

but if you got caught with low stam by anything that wasnt slow you were screwed

[barren crater]

Legacy carno was terrible and I hope we never go back to it. It was quite pathetic

[cyan flame]

Say what now? Legacy carno was one of the better playables, capable of hunting maias and paras, and escape most things (though rex and giga ambush speed is terrifying).

[barren crater]

It was oppressive to them (well maia at least). It was pretty garbage at hunting smaller game.

It was only good because the game was incomplete

Well great at surviving

[daring talon]

(I fought a whole pack of dilos with a carno without getting hit)
(Killed 7)

[barren crater]

I wouldn't even be surprised tbf

[cyan flame]

That much is true, it was better at hunting larger game than smaller. And yes, poor maias, standing no real chance xD

[barren crater]

^

[cyan flame]

Not that para did either, not good enough turn to handle a carno from what I recall at least.

[barren crater]

Maia and cerato were easy to hunt for it

[barren crater]

yeah, bad bleed heal and the attacks cost so much stamina (the kick)

2 carnos would take it down if they knew how to play

But in evrima, carno will likely not be able to hunt maia like that again.

And para

So if everyone is playing the larger creatures (which always seems to be the case with this game), it's a pretty bad pick unless you want to play spectator.

[cyan flame]

Hopefully the choices will be more varied when there's actual factors to survival.

[barren crater]

Yeah. Currently, everything is easy to grow. So why wouldn't you grow larger things?

[daring talon]

To be honest they'll probably massively drop its food drain when its not the largest land predator anymore
give it the ability to actually eat something smaller and be full

[barren crater]

Yeah

What carno should be anyways in the future

When we get allo or whatever else larger than it, they can mess around with the hunger drain

I'd just change food values and buff the hunger timer to an hour

[daring talon]

as bigger and bigger stuff gets added, the smaller stuff will likely have drain lowered and eating speed increased, so that they can kill and eat before something massive kicks them off their food
and have time to kill something else far from said massive creatures

compared to right nw where carno has no time to chill and should be murdering not constantly but if it gets the chance to fight it should

[abstract belfry]

I personally would like Carno to be the pachy of the carnivore group silly I know but he gives that vibe with his charge speed and straightforwardness like yeah a bigger guy can kill ya but you’ll give a hell of a fight/out speed and maim him if he’s not careful

sure you can take my food but imma circle back and charge full force into your shin for it

[limber hull]

honestly, not a fan of that idea. Sounds more like cera. Carno has the speed to simply dash away from these threats, pachy is slower than a lot of its predators, which forces it to turn around and fight. Letting carno punch up to the same scale pachy does would make it almost godlike

[abstract belfry]

Honestly fair even if Carno was F tier I would still try it I just like bull dinosaur lol

[limber hull]

fair enough

i like the idea of carno being cheetah-esque

sits around in the plains, uses long sightlines to spot small prey and larger predators

[sage yew]

short stamina, hit or miss ram?

[limber hull]

sounds ambush carno, which I'm not a fan of

the newer, more consistent ram I prefer to the old ambush-style ram. Not a fan of the hitbox though, that needs reduction

[sage yew]

but isn't a cheetah basically that?
one try and if he doesn't get it, he wont get another chance

[limber hull]

which is the same with carno, i just dont like the "hit or miss" ram that we used to have

since it was 95% miss, unless it was against something big like teno

[sage yew]

previously was the ram sometimes a bit weird, maybe not the best comparison

but I think that a ram needs to be precisely timed with one chance sounds actually good

don't forget that he's pretty fast tho
even without ram

currently many people use ram to basically super sprint

[limber hull]

except it barely increases your speed anymore since the recent changes

[sage yew]

yea, but it doesn't really matter, if he's that fast to begin with

my assumption is, that ram should be highly limited
maybe instant 15% drain, when starting?

[limber hull]

15%? Hell no

[sage yew]

at least it would give enough wiggle room

[limber hull]

5% at most, 15% would cripple the hell out of carno

carno has one of the shortest sprinting times in the game, 15% drain on startup would be abysmal

[sage yew]

how many ram attampts do you need? That's still 6 full rams

[abstract belfry]

Not to mention is stamina total is pretty low to begin with

[limber hull]

sprinting takes stam, charging takes more stam

now you want charge to take 15% more stam, on top of the stam you're already using to
A: Get close to the prey
B: Pursue the prey
C: Attempt a ram

[sage yew]

maybe I'm comparing stamina too much to current omni, as it's totally wasted against carnos stam

but it seemed to me like plenty of stamina

[limber hull]

It's such an absurdly high number

5% would be a good starting point

Even 10% would be too punishing