💀┃acolyte

[obtuse quest]

They’re effectively fodder or meatshields in most setups.

Are you looking to fight the end game content’s final boss?

Or the finalfinalsuper boss?

If you’re only leveling then any setup works, but people only make builds in relation to endgame content

[arctic osprey]

Im still learning the systems and stuff and ive mostly been trying to make a build to farm and eventually try the endgame boss i guess

[obtuse quest]

It's ideally better to reach/try a bit of the endgame yourself then come back, since the time before that is effectively the best time to mess around and find out

[arctic osprey]

Reason why i asked in the first place was when i faced one of the dubble bosses last night, killed the first one after one of those islands a second void boss spawned and completley whoped my minions and me seconds after

[obtuse quest]

Oh, welcome to the gatekeeper

If you can't beat him, empowered will 1000% whoop your butt

This is when you need an actual build.

Skeletons are most commonly used in either sacrifice setups, or as skeleton rogues

[arctic osprey]

Would this be good for rogues aswell?

[wintry flame]

I mean the only good mod is minion melee damage. Skeleton rogues you either go crit or poison

[tender fractal]

Yeah honesty skeleton warrior/archers are just bad

[arctic osprey]

I may just have been playing D2 for to long, i miss my skellies 🥲

[tender fractal]

I was experimenting with necro recently and had success with ice golems (using the uh, chest piece that lets you trade in your skellies for a second golem) + cyromancers + cold aura of decay

Fire would probs do work too tho

Cause honestly acolyte has better overall fire support

[wintry flame]

Fun fact my fellow minion enjoyers a lot of minions have hidden modifiers or mechanics, some of which you won't know in game. if you used either https://lastepoch.tunklab.com/minions or https://www.lastepochtools.com/minions/ you can see these modifiers. In the example you can see rogues have a 40% less damage modifier, more attack speed, and a bit of poison chance. Something that isn't explicit is that they also hit with their basic attack twice per hit, so their damage effect is actually 150% instead of 75% and they are really good at applying ailments because of this. Just some tips for build planning minions

But this is why some minion variants are just ass because they get some bad modifiers inherently and nothing ever makes up for it.

[tender fractal]

The big problem I ran into with poison necro is that you can’t convert mage actual damage type to poison even though they can apply it

So you’re doing split damage types for your dot and the quite strong actual casts

Which is obnoxious

[wintry flame]

I mean unfortunately Mages just aren't good in general. Little more multipliers and they have a inherent damage loss. That's in comparison to something like rogues which gets great support from lethal concentration and has quite a lot of multipliers in it's tree, especially when using Dread Phalanx and Individual Operator

[old hull]

That's just how poison works in this game, it's usually applied by hits, and hits don't deal poison damage

it's one of the weaker ailments, so it only works when a skill has excellent support for poison, like rogues do have

[forest fog]

I have a question, How can I make my golem a tank and take more damage? I am level 30 and my armor is weak

[wintry flame]

More Damage = getting flat on weapon or the flat melee cold in tree

[forest fog]

This is what I have so far

https://www.lastepochtools.com/profile/mellowfresh/character/Marty

[wintry flame]

More defense = sustain so you probably are missing minion health regen

I doubt it’s getting one shot or anything at that level probably just slowly dying

[forest fog]

what side is defense and offense/

[wintry flame]

So like that weapon unique is likely not any better than a blue with some flat minion melee affixes on a 2H and you don’t have any regen as suspected

Typically prefixes are damage modifiers but for minions it’s kind of spread. Minion health regen, minion health, minion area & damage and % minion damage are prefixes

Minion flat damage, % minion DoT, and minion penetration are suffixes on weapons

[forest fog]

i honestly get so confused with this part cause idk what to put it i on mainly i stack minions

[wintry flame]

Goal 1: find a 2H with double minion flat either both melee, if melee or spell if that.

[forest fog]

that's my hot bar

[wintry flame]

Goal 2: find minion health regen on helm, belt, or relic. Usually 1 or 2 can sustain you for a while

If you go melee convert your mages to death knights

[forest fog]

how do i do that

[wintry flame]

Their tree

It’s a node you can take

[forest fog]

do you know what part of the tree left right?

[wintry flame]

Bottom right

[forest fog]

got it.

i specc'd out of skeletons

[wintry flame]

Use your loot filter to find the minion melee flat affixes and minion regen

Just make a top rule and highlight the affix a color or something

So you can’t miss it and that will help a lot

[forest fog]

right now gonna download the loot filter and try to find all minion loot gear

i downloaded this one from max roll

i kind of get overwhelmed with loot filters cause i have no idea what i am doing

[wintry flame]

that should have the stat highlighted I believe

[forest fog]

So should at the bottom of the LF is it at the bottom for my class

[forest fog]

how's it going

[rich stag]

It follows the rules bottom to top

[wintry flame]

if it's not on there just make a new rule, that recolors to some color that is bright and noticeable to you and make an affix rule, then select the minion melee & bow, minion melee & spell, and minion health regen affixes

[hard eagle]

Hi how does the mana flay lich compare to other S-tier builds?

[pearl snow]

I didnt play the others but even looking at videos online a geared mana flay feels like its in its own tier

[vapid kindle]

it’s roughly equivalent to warpath, reflect, acid flask for maps but it does have a higher dps ceiling than reflect/warpath for higher corruption, for bossing it’s also one of the best although bear would likely cap higher with maxed gear

[sly forge]

Idk about warpath but mana flay lich kills bosses much faster than erasing strike void knight.

[pastel pagoda]

<@&1161418687471956101>

[zenith scarab]

Hello, what's the best way to increase cast speed as warlock ?

[tired tendon]

Nodes, stats on gear and maybe some uniques?

[muted mist]

T7 cast speed on weapon will be the largest single source if you can afford to do that. T8 would be even better if you don't need a unique weapon or any other primordial items.

[zenith scarab]

Yeah i saw that t7 cast speed on 2h weapon is more than wand + catalyst

I was thinking of alchemist laddle too (cast speed per intelligence)

[tight sapphire]

https://www.lastepochtools.com/db/items/UAzAcGYEZSA with t7 cast speed slam

[zenith scarab]

36% cast speed max roll is pretty nice

[zenith scarab]

Is there a bug with spirit plague and the node that make it an AoE? Since i took the node sometime SP disappear instantly

[obtuse quest]

What's your spec tree for SP?

[obtuse quest]

Unless you have something that consumes curses, I don't think SP itself is the cause.

[zenith scarab]

i'm spreading SP with soul feast after

but since it took the node on the left for SP, i noticed that sometine it just disappear instantly

but the mobs are feared

[obtuse quest]

Fear and spirit plague are seperate debuffs, it just applies fear along with spirit plague

I don’t have a clue whats happening to your sp though

[fluid ridge]

do wraithlord nowadays pick grand spirit of command (100% inc minion dmg) or grand body of obsidian (320 armor) for high corruption

[zenith scarab]

yeah its really weird, gonna do more test with or without

[sly forge]

Hi guy, I want to ask about infernal shade necro https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D-x90sd09reU&ved=2ahUKEwjm86aV_oSSAxWDcfUHHdAjNxcQo7QBegQIExAG&usg=AOvVaw11Bjb2bPJDwJiJa5TK3YO0. I would like to know where does most of the damage comes from, since I tried the build and sometimes it does insane damage while sometimes it does no damage at all.

Also, the build is quite hard to play isn't it? Since I quite mess up the skill rotation, for example, it is very hard to aim for casting dread share every 2 sec most of the time and do I summon wraith all the time or just summon them sometimes?

[wintry flame]

Flickering shadows and upkeeping enough shades that overlap

also wraith count of course

[sly forge]

I don't get it.

[wintry flame]

The build gets a stacking multi from Flickering Shadows in Sacrifice, Wraiths give more dmg via Ghost Maker, Flickering shadows makes the shades have a 2sec duration but you can extend that by casting Dread Shade before they expire, up to 2 times per infernal shade. You also get flat spell damage from Rip Blood. If enough shades overlap while you have a bunch of these buffs applied the damage potential is insanely high.

[sly forge]

So how to use the build perfectly? Since it is quite hard to aim dread shade every 2 secs and casting wraith too much will make me run out of mana.

[wintry flame]

in single target scenarios it shouldn't be hard to aim the Dread shade as you're usually targeting the boss. Clear situations don't need Dread Shade tbh

[sly forge]

But should I cast wraith often?

[wintry flame]

But the build is extremely difficult to play perfectly as it has an inherent damage variance due to the shades not really targeting and needing sufficient overlap

I doubt the wraith stays alive in many ST scenarios so I'd just cast when not low on mana

[sly forge]

Idk the build is a three button build, each require good aiming of when to cast.

And somewhat depends on luck

Since sometimes it deals insane damage and sometimes it not.

[wintry flame]

yupp

[sly forge]

The playstyle is quite chaotic, and the weakness when fighting uberroth is that when there is a harbringer appears, sometimes it won't kill it.

[wintry flame]

yeah it's not one I'd recommend for most

[lost gale]

The timing of casting infernal shades and sacrifice is also outside of your control (and quite important)

As well as how the shades are aimed

[sly forge]

Ah, it was actually because I summoned wraith too much that my necro did not have enough mana to trigger shade and sacrifice. If I only summon 2 wraith every 2 sec then the damage is more stable.

[pulsar tundra]

Anyone know what happened to the updates to Summon Skeleton?

[old hull]

They just didn't make it in time, is what I figured. Probably still planned, but for when, no clue.

[zenith scarab]

wasnt that the aggresive / defensive toggle for minions ?

[pulsar tundra]

That is not a feature that only affects Summon Skeletons. That is a QoL for all classes that have a minion/companion.

[zenith scarab]

ha right

[pulsar tundra]

That message says "Balance changes to Necromancer Minions" And 2 icons under it. One for Summon Abomb. Yes it got changes. The other is for Summon Skeleton. There have not been updates to that at all.

[wintry flame]

Boy I wish I knew

[zenith scarab]

this affixe on Curse of perseverance also reduce the damage of ailment applied by hungering soul right ?

[wintry flame]

yes

[rich stag]

Which baffles me as EHG have had nothing but time… But hey

[old hull]

It definitely wasn't the only thing they were working on

they do have a relatively slow dev cycle

[wheat forge]

I just hit 60 and monoliths with Warlock. How do I safely transition to Harvest flay lich? Getting the boots drop first?

[obtuse quest]

Flay lich is pretty gear dependant, so yes

[steady spade]

flay mana lich is basically ES build but with cool form tho

stacking mana and you gud

[sly forge]

And it does more damage than ES?

Btw stygian coral is gud too

Don't know why it got b tier but it can kill uberroth as quick as any other A tier.

By stacking intelligence and mana and cast speed

[obtuse quest]

Harder to build, and iirc it is bugged right now.

[steady spade]

it was bugged (marrow shard) but its fixed already

thats why people use death seal instead

but with right gear, you should be able to do uberroth without much problem

[sly forge]

In terms of uberroth (and bossing in general), I believe it ties with abomination necro and only behinds bear.

[steady spade]

before bug fixed? sure

after bug fixed? nope lol

abomination can do 55s uberroth meanwhile without marrow shard, mana flay lich takes more time

[sly forge]

I saw some glass cannon builds taking uberroth in 36 secs without bugs

Also abomination takes too long since they are defensive builds

[obtuse quest]

Abomination? Defensive?

In the same sentence?

[steady spade]

Bruh since when abomination is defensive build

[sly forge]

1. replace the two red rings with hollow finger and phantom grip, 2) replace the two currently equipped shield with horn of uhkeiros, 3) replace brewmaster or strand of soul belt with jungle holder belt, 4) replace immortal wise for an exalted gloves that allows 3 prefixes, same for the tundra hat. Also it is easier to obtain endurance in exalted gear and endurance is actually an offensive status.

[sly forge]

nah, I just say that the gear is too defensive

[obtuse quest]

The heck is horn going to do?

[sly forge]

+16 strength?

more pen from aura of decay?

[obtuse quest]

Str? Is this a cleaver setup?

[sly forge]

yes. are there even other choice for good damage?

[obtuse quest]

Run normal wands and just stack int like a normal acolyte? You know, the class with the most access to Int?

[sly forge]

but dinosaur benefits from BOTH str and int and their roar can give the minion those bonus

if you only stack int you lose minion dps

also endurance

stack as much endurance as possible

[obtuse quest]

Oh it's the dino setup, that makes more sense.

[sly forge]

16 str= 19.2 pen, 64% increased minion damage, 9.8 flat melee damage for abomination

[steady spade]

36s vs 52s between these two uberroth fights isn't that much different

iirc noobzor did that with bossing gear such as 2x Julra ring and other flat mana stuff

oh btw, if you're comparing timer across classes, there was explosive ballista did uberroth in 30s tho

[rich stag]

It can be very, very tanky

[sly forge]

Well it is a build that makes you reach over 100% block chance and a lot of armor so not surprising.

[tacit plinth]

Warpath killed it in 26 seconds too

[rich stag]

Surprising to some it would seem

[wheat forge]

Would you have a rough plan for how one transition properly to this harvest flay build from acolyte/warlock leveling build?
https://maxroll.gg/last-epoch/build-guides/harvest-lich-guide

I take it Army of Skin boots is bare minimum, but would I want anything else before transitioning?

[pearl snow]

Those weapons. Obviously you dont need 2LP but getting your hands on good weapons is a great start in addition to the boots

There is a starter gearset in the guide

Take a look at it and see if you have something similar

[sly forge]

do you have the video link of this? I can't find it. Please tell me that the build does not require changing items midfight or use any bug.

[zenith scarab]

what's a good defense for warlock ? beside lot of ward ? armor maybe ?

[compact sorrel]

What warlock builds do you play? Paste a planner please:)

[zenith scarab]

i'm trying to make a damned warlock with soul feast. My character atm : https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/QdzzbmRY

[stuck owl]

Warlock, Level 89

:white_check_mark: This character build is verified

Game Cycle / Version:

Beneath Ancient Skies / 1.3.5

Class:

Acolyte (20) / Lich (5) / Warlock (77)

General:

▸ Health: 1,901, Regen: 0/s
▸ Mana: 109.95, Regen: 13.52/s
▸ Ward Retention: 238%, Regen: 38/s
▸ Attributes: 4 Str / 4 Dex / 90 Int / 4 Att / 24 Vit
▸ Resistances: 80% / 46% / 65% / 60% / 40% / 157% / 44%

Defenses:

▸ Endurance: 38%, Threshold: 380
▸ Dodge Chance: 8% (203)
▸ Armor Mitigation: 15% (373)
▸ Crit Avoidance: 115%

Used skills:

Profane Veil / Transplant / Spirit Plague / Soul Feast / Hungering Souls

[zenith scarab]

i still need to cap some resistances but after that i dont know

[pearl snow]

Warlock can kinda scoop up many layers of defense.
You can have some block with shields like the Erased one or any of them really.
Dodge if you dip into Lich passives
Armor across the board is just nice mitigation especially if you get Crit reduction with the affix
Having all Res capped
Red Rings / flat damage reductions sources help massively in endgame. These are things like Null Portent too

[zenith scarab]

didnt know about the lich passive, dodge per intel would be really good for me

red rings could be my next goal i think

the other thing depends on my build, i'm playing with a staff atm so i cant have shield

cant have null potent too since i need to use exsanguinous

[rapid halo]

I think i have perfected my rot forged colossus necromancer build.

with my big army being a living superorganism.

with the skeleton warriors, archers, and rogues being the bones, the bone and deathchill golems being the muscle, the Wraith's being the metabolism, the volatile zombies being the acidic blood, and the death knight mages being the heart.

It's a system that runs itself and keeps me alive while i just keep it going.

[wintry flame]

I'd run Isadora's reforged set on helm, belt, and gloves more damned chance and more pen

then you could run T7 missing hp as ward on gloves

[zenith scarab]

OH right forgot we can add set on the gear now

Isadora is huge for damned build

[zenith scarab]

Didnt found one yet 🫠

[wintry flame]

yeah, def ideal for your type of build

[zenith scarab]

set affixes can go on unique item with LP ?

[old hull]

No

[zenith scarab]

Ha sucks

Cant put it on boneclamor barbute

[obtuse quest]

They would be everywhere if you could

[peak flare]

I theorycrafted a build like this a while ago, but never actually tested it. Here if you wanna take a look: https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/owLL2qrM

[stuck owl]

Warlock, Level 100

Game Cycle / Version:

Beneath Ancient Skies / 1.3.5

Class:

Acolyte (26) / Lich (28) / Warlock (59)

General:

▸ Health: 2,908, Regen: 23.6/s
▸ Mana: 342.51, Regen: 11.04/s
▸ Ward Retention: 444%, Regen: 181/s
▸ Attributes: 20 Str / 31 Dex / 202 Int / 20 Att / 47 Vit
▸ Resistances: 105% / 70% / 70% / 67% / 87% / 337% / 122%

Defenses:

▸ Endurance: 20%, Threshold: 582
▸ Dodge Chance: 40% (1418)
▸ Armor Mitigation: 42% (2,445)
▸ Crit Avoidance: 91%

Used skills:

Soul Feast / Spirit Plague / Chthonic Fissure / Bone Curse / Transplant

[peak flare]

I use aspirational gear (double t7), so beware of that. You can also change Shattered Worlds to Erased Acolyte or Twisted Heart.

[sly forge]

just want to ask: between skeletal rogue and flame wraith, which one is stronger?

[wintry flame]

Idk if you can snapshot well on wraiths, so rogues. If you aren’t snapshotting, probably wraiths but idk tbh.

I haven’t seen wraiths done properly in a minute and their upkeep isn’t something I’m interested in

[zenith scarab]

thanks for your input ! didnt know about the primordial ring, it's pretty good

you think the boss dps would be better with chtonic fissures ? i use hungering souls atm with curse of perseverance

[sly forge]

Just realized that there are no affix shard that inceases flat throwing damage for rogues

[obtuse quest]

Rings.

Oh, did you mean skele rogues

[wintry flame]

the throw is very little of their total dps as their melee attack double hits

[tacit plinth]

Rogues are kinda busted when they have what 40 less damage and they still do damage😅 kinda cool

[wintry flame]

cause of their total dmg effect and scaling, they have access to a lot of multis, flat, and poison dmg with lethal

the innate double attack is what kind of saves them, they sucked before that

in the reddit thread I suggested they do this more with necro minions. Archers could chain or pierce, Cryomancers shotgun (like they used to), Pyromancer chance to cause explosion on hit, etc.

[sly forge]

Hmm, is there a reliable way to buff them?

Since dread shade drains a lot

I want to try new minion other than abomination

[obtuse quest]

I thought rogues can use Lone Watcher and ignore the drain anyway

Not sure if they use Infernal Shade

[sly forge]

Yeah as long as the others do not run out of the buffed one's aura then it's good

I wonder if I should go for poison rogues or poison wraith

[obtuse quest]

poison wraith

You're going to do NO damage

[sly forge]

Oh

Too bad

Guess rogue then

Just hope that they are at least as good as flame wraith

[wintry flame]

Lazy - Lone Watcher and snapshot the area with enough minions to max it the area per minion node
Active - Take the Everlasting Poison node, resummon and recast as they get low. You can take the All for One node and apply a shade on each rogue if you get increased shade count from Dread Shade and Infernal Shade and take Dread Phalanx in skele tree

[sly forge]

Is there any othef lazy way that does not use snapshot?

[wintry flame]

just don't snapshot the area

and command them or use a targeting skill like Rip blood

Stench of Blood will help to have them target same enemies and stay in range or just simply press A

if you build poison res for them the Active playstyle they stay alive for quite a while with leech

[fluid ridge]

is abom the strongest minion build for acolyte right now?

[sly forge]

yes

no doubt

@wintry flame for rogues poison build is it best to go for dot for hit damage?

using the lethal spear?

[obtuse quest]

Pretty much

[peak flare]

Actually i prefer to compare Hungering Souls with Soul Feast, not with Cthonic Fissure, since HS or SF is the skill you'll be spamming on bosses. And the answer is: HS with Curse of Perseverance is much better for single target damage, but SF generates so much ward. Cthonic Fissure is there for complementary damage while you're spamming one of those skills.

[obtuse quest]

If they're comparing it in a general sense, Fissure always will do more damage.

[peak flare]

I mean, of course i could replace Cthonic Fissure with Hungering Souls, then for mapping i'd use Wheel of Torment with Soul Feast and for bossing i'd use Curse of Perseverance with Hungering Souls, but in that case i wouldn't have complementary damage in the form of Chtonic Fissure (unless i replace Transplant with Hungering Souls).

[old hull]

There is no poison hit damage, so you'd have to run it as a DOT build - yeah, use the spear

[sly forge]

@old hull so to use the spear, you need to run a DOT build?

[obtuse quest]

Otherwise the spear wouldn't do anything.

[old hull]

Yeah, basically the idea is you stack some player poison/generic damage in addition to minion damage and minion poison chance (and other minion poison stuff)

[sly forge]

hmm, right now I'm not sure if the build is uber viable or not, but is the build stronger than flame wraith?

[old hull]

Note that player DOT does not work for the spear effect, only poison and generic damage stats. More damage effects work, too, like when you have dread shade apply to yourself it also applies extra to your rogues

[sly forge]

what about chance to poison on hit?

does it work on rogues?

[old hull]

Only minion poison chance

The spear basically takes the "poison damage" stat on your char sheet, multiplies it, and slaps it on your rogues

[sly forge]

hmm

for tanking, do you recommend going low life?

[obtuse quest]

No

[sly forge]

Hmm, tried the skeletal rogue build but unfortunately they are weaker than flame wraith

[rich stag]

It’s next competition isn’t even close sadly

[compact sorrel]

How to equip dagger and axe on flay lich? I can only hqve one weapon equipped

[obtuse quest]

Did you take this node?

[compact sorrel]

Thank you:D

[wintry flame]

You can go low life or you can go regen w/ vessel as you'll be stacking a lot of vit and can scale % regen and flat regen from idols

[sly forge]

hmm, but it will not be very tanky right?

[wintry flame]

relative to what? you'll be near capped armor, have plenty of sustain in either option, but will miss out on block and likely red rings unless you fit those in the build

like you won't be as tanky as other necro setups for sure

cause some can run block and get higher ehp values with Tyrant's, while still having great sustain and near cap armor

[sly forge]

huh, I dont see how we cap armor with this

the only source of sustain i see is ward

[sly forge]

Well, I am a bit torn between flame wraith and skeletal rogues

Since I hope to make at least one of them uberroth viable, at least in offline

But both deals too low dps while the necro defense in them are not tanky enough, and he last phase of uberroth requires you to kill very fast (like mana flay) or tanky enough to face tank (like forge guard or paladin)

[dense surge]

is there a way to prevent summoning another abomination? i keep acidently press it and redo my summoning

[lost gale]

Dread shade has a node for +25 armor per vitality in the aura buff and another node which lets you benefit from the aura buffs too, when combined they make any minion DOT necro (using VIT for the dot multi in the passive tree) very very tanky

at least, it does when you're in the aura, if you move out of it you become squishy

[wintry flame]

dread shade gives 30 armor per vit and you stack vitality for more dot dmg and you make dread shade apply to you. you get like 3k+ flat armor which is scaled by your % increases

[wintry flame]

rebind the key it's on

oh didn't read someone replied already haha

[sly forge]

Ah I see, it also make me does more damage and added flat poison damage and this value is again, applied to my rogues, right?

[obtuse quest]

flat poison damage

[sly forge]

In flame wraith does that node only buff my survival?

Or does it also buff damage?

[obtuse quest]

What flat poison damage?

[sly forge]

Woops

Did not check them carefully

So I would like to ask the benefit of the node "symbolic apparition"

On other minion builds

Does it has no other benefit than my survival?

[obtuse quest]

You're not going to be doing damage, so the damage buffs won't really ever help you, it's mostly for defensive purposes.

[wintry flame]

all the dread shade buffs affect you and the minions, anything that is given by the aura. So the more damage, poison chance, increased poison dmg, etc. Same with Flame Wraith. But the only thing given to rogues is poison damage, it's pretty much just % inc poison damage.

[sly forge]

But for flame wraith, i just get more defensive

[wintry flame]

yeah

[sly forge]

For rogue, I also get increased poison damage

And do I need to stay in the shade aura?

[wintry flame]

you need to for the defensive buff mostly. the majority of their damage comes from just % increased poison mods on yourself

[sly forge]

I see. But the "more damage" buff also apply to me, which in turn increase my poison damage right?

[wintry flame]

well it might apply since it's generic more dmg, I'm not sure I've only ever played the active version tbh. It'd be easy to test as the buff would snapshot on the rogues if you summoned them while under the affect, so wouldn't need to stand in it

[sly forge]

@wintry flame btw, I wonder if anyone has killed uberroth with flame wraith

[old hull]

Yes, generic "more damage" and "more poison damage" are both applied to your rogues via lethal con

the "more DOT" does not

(but obviously still a good node since it applies to your minions directly)

[old hull]

They stack also

[wintry flame]

what stacks sorry?

[fluid ridge]

which is what? wraithlord? rogues?

[wintry flame]

def not wraithlord, probably snapshot minion army

[sly forge]

Since from what I experienced so far, flame wraith is one of the better playstyle vs uber aberroth

it plays similar to ballista except that you have ward as defense

you keep your distance from uberroth and summon wraith as turret

[wintry flame]

yeah but idk it's annoying to play imo

[sly forge]

fragility of aberroth does not affect you a lot since you can summon wraith that avoids the void puddles

but it's one of the better one for bossing, especially uber aberroth

it is way easier than sorcerer and melee classes like spellblade

since uberroth hates melee a lot

it;s just not as op as abomination but totally good vs uber aberroth

[fluid ridge]

whats the ranking of acolyte minion build anyway

[wintry flame]

ranking in what?

[fluid ridge]

minion build, like abom probably #1 then what after abom, flame wraith? wraithlord? golem? rogues? etc

[sly forge]

Abomination >>>> wraithlord >= flame wraith >= everything else

That's what people say

But from my experience flame wraith is not inferior to wraith lord

[fluid ridge]

i havent try abom yet but wraithlord seems okay

[wintry flame]

wraithlord isn't 2nd

[sly forge]

I can't see how wraith lord deals better damage than flame wraith

[wintry flame]

I wouldn't even put wraithlord in the top lmao

[fluid ridge]

dont people say wl is better at bossing while flame wraith is for mapping?

[sly forge]

My maxed gear wraith lord deals 5M damage per attack while my maxed gear flame wraith deals 400k damage per attack per wraith

[sly forge]

I cant see that in terms of dps

And I saw via real experiment rather what people said

[wintry flame]

5M per attack and it attacks how fast

[sly forge]

Same as flame wraith

Ah actually a bit faster due to infernal shade

[wintry flame]

it's cast rate out the gate is 0.8 cast/s flame wraith is 1.17 cast/s

[fluid ridge]

so faster than flame wraith

[wintry flame]

slower

[sly forge]

Since I tested them long ago I can't quite remember

But I remember the number well

[fluid ridge]

i read that as 0.8 sec per cast vs 1.17 sec per cast lol

[sly forge]

Flame wraith deals 400k attack per sec

[wintry flame]

and you get 12 wraiths no?

[sly forge]

While wraith lord deals 5M cast per sec

[sly forge]

20

I said maxed gear

I tried wraith lord and flame wraith with maxed gear

Including stacking necrotic and fire resistance for both cases

For minion pen

[obtuse quest]

Are you really going to spend spec points just for 2 more?

[wintry flame]

wraithlord is like same dps as snapshot pyre golem

[obtuse quest]

When slapping in abberath gives you 18?

[sly forge]

Yes

[sly forge]

I don't get it

[obtuse quest]

You know, this thing.

[sly forge]

Why not,

[wintry flame]

they use it and the + 2

[sly forge]

I'm trying to maximize dps

[obtuse quest]

I'm saying the +2 is not worth the spec points

The node before isn't that useful anyway espically if you immobilize them

[wintry flame]

but you say flame wraith is 400k per atk or 400k per sec?

cast wraiths are gonna attack way faster than wraithlord even without infernal

[sly forge]

per attack with 4 x t7 gears

just experiment

[obtuse quest]

At least be realistic

[sly forge]

if realistic then we just remove the res stack which does not difference

[fluid ridge]

do you use aberrant now still for f wraiths?

[obtuse quest]

Why not?

[wintry flame]

yeah you have to

it's too much dmg

[obtuse quest]

It triples your wraith count

[fluid ridge]

im asking because its been a while since i last play flame wraiths lol

[wintry flame]

I think wraith max is easily higher than wraithlord tbh

[sly forge]

I stack necrotic res with wraithlord too for the 5M damage

so it's fair comparison

[wintry flame]

snapshot crit rogues are 27mil, snapshot army is like 30mil+

[fluid ridge]

is this about dmg, survivability (self or minion) or both?

[sly forge]

regardless of realistic or not

[wintry flame]

dmg mostly

wraithlord tbh loses in survivability too potentially, since you isolate dread shade to itself

[fluid ridge]

what kind of build you guys use nowadays for flame wraiths?

[wintry flame]

idk probs just whatever Maxroll has

[sly forge]

maxroll one

[fluid ridge]

is maxroll one good/updated?

[wintry flame]

I could make snapshot version

not much has changed with the build tbh

[sly forge]

but can be changed for more damage like using custom exalted ring instead

and custom exalted helm that has +10 minion spell damage implicit

for uberroth you just do whatever you learned from ballista

[fluid ridge]

is it worth using exalted rings instead of phantom grip for that extra base crit?

[sly forge]

and you are allowed to make more mistake

due to insane ward

you are not really affected by fragility of aberroth

that's flame wraith's strong point

[fluid ridge]

looking at maxroll's they didnt use teleporting minion affix even though using stationary wraiths? do you keep summoning wraiths?

[sly forge]

they do?

look at aspirational gear

[fluid ridge]

even aspirational gear only brings 7 minions

i feel like if its important affix you would put that in endgame gear, no?

and not needing to keep recasting wraiths feels like a huge qol

[sly forge]

7 minions?

Ah that depends

if you are lucky you get higher

depend on your luck farming the experimental affix

[fluid ridge]

yea i mean if its aspirational shouldnt they put at least 20 minions something tier on the affix

[sly forge]

regardless I would rank flame wraith higher than wraithlord

[fluid ridge]

unless its not that important

[sly forge]

14 is max

cannot higher

But I agree that the more the better

because from my experience flame wraith deals higher damage

at least in this season

[fluid ridge]

tbh wraiths looks cooler but abom is still better huh

[wintry flame]

thats what I was saying wraithlord isn't great

[sly forge]

maybe the comments about wraith lord being more op is from people playing the previous seasons

[wintry flame]

wraithlord isn't op anymore since helm nerf

[sly forge]

and they did not bother to try again with flame wraith to see how their wraithlord are nerfed

[fluid ridge]

whats the nerf anyway

[fluid ridge]

how high can you comfortable do with flame?

[sly forge]

If I want a single powerful minion playstyle then there are LITERALLY NO REASON to select wraithlord because the existence of abomination

[wintry flame]

they nerfed dmg from helm and it being able to absorb infinite minions

[sly forge]

maxroll got 1k+ corruption with it I think

at leat I'm more chill doing uberroth with flame wraith than spell blade, sorcerer and many other melee classes

[fluid ridge]

oh 1k is not that hard though, ive just returned playing again, and trying wl 1k is not that hard with medium gear, abom is definitely would be much higher

[sly forge]

I can't speak for realistic situation since I'm experiment how OP they are with maxed gear

[sly forge]

abomination 4k+ corruption with maxed gear is no problem

I think flame wraith could do more than 1.5k to 2k+ corruption with medium gear

since I have no problem farming 3k+ corruption with flame wraith maxed gear

but it require some lucks to get easy shades whoses attacks can be dodged

there are some shades will kill you at that corruption no matter how tanky you are, for example the shades that create blacks holes that explode releasing shards

those attacks are extremely hard to dodge

and flame wraith necro mainly survive by dodging shade attack at high corruption

like it mainly survive by dodging uberroth's direct hits

@fluid ridge for my opinion, I would rank abomination>> flame wraith>wraithlord

not sure about skeleon rogue

but they are quite good and has high survival

abomination is the meta right now

I love them

I also love flame wraith

maxroll is quite right about their tier

you can also try infernal shade necro too

other builds rely on minion

this build use minion to support and empower your spells

[wintry flame]

minion army is probs higher than wraithlord too

[sly forge]

infernal necro is a strange case

it would require you to do some "setup" to maximize the damage

but when you maximize it, the burst damage is insane

@wintry flame what about skeletal mage ranking?

the one that sacrifice normal skeletons for necrotic damage?

[wintry flame]

pretty garbage, even profane oblation

[sly forge]

oh

lucky I did not try them

and you know what, I see that flame wraith and ballista are true totem builds in this game

because they are much better than whatever totem shaman's doing

[rich stag]

Really not sure I would include snapshotting into equation myself

[rich stag]

Abom > Everything else basically

Like, it’s not even close

Wraithlord, Rogues and Wraiths are the next top contenders and they’re all decently close to each other I would say but Abom is in a league of it’s own.

[sly forge]

Currently wraith>wraithlord, at least in this season. Rogue is quite ok too but dps is not good as wraith. I don't know how rogue compares to wraithlord since I have not tested them

Wraith is still a bit worse than sabertooth but not much if we compare across all minion of all classes

[sly forge]

Still it sucks that there is no online uberroth kill using flame wraith this season

[fluid ridge]

you can be that person

[sly forge]

No I can't. Not enough time to farm and play online now.

[fluid ridge]

i thought you already have bis gear for flame wraith?

[sly forge]

I said online kill

[fluid ridge]

oh you meant you didnt have time to do it

not to farm gear to be able to do it

[sly forge]

Meaning that you need to farms thing from start

And not very good gear

[fluid ridge]

your bis gear not seasonal?

[sly forge]

Seasonal but they are maxed gear offline

[fluid ridge]

ah offline

[sly forge]

Legal items but realistically impossible to obtain

By legal I mean they can theoretically be possible to obtain

Maxed gear offline can kill him easily. Took 1 min 45-50 secs. Realistic good gear online should double the time or a bit less than double.

It's one of the chill class to kill him

I'm too old to have time farming intensively :(((

[rich stag]

By that do you mean like 4LP and all T7s?

[sly forge]

Yes

[rich stag]

A 1min kill with that kind of gear is pretty bad

Not many people would have the patience / skill to get the kill on online

Technically anything is possible with enough skill and time but yeah

[sly forge]

Idk. Many good gear online has almost 2 t7 prefixes where most of the offensive comes from

4 t7 gears are not that far above

Like it reduces 40s to 30s or 50 to 40

[rich stag]

That can be very impactful but I’d have to look at Flame Wraith specifically to say

That is quite a significant decrease in time in any case

10sec could the difference between a clear or not for some people

[sly forge]

Yeah but I mean that if this is the case then an average flame wraith might takes 3 min clear

Which is the time of most A- or B tier bosser

People can still do it in 4 min without problems :)))

@rich stag so for you, how many second do you expect an A tier bosser to kill Ubers?

For me it would be around 2mins on good online gears and around 1 mins 15 sec on maxed gears

Since I tried maxroll builds and the result are like that except some cases like judgement paladin (which I changed go the aura version)

[rich stag]

1min itself is good, I’m just saying in the context of having unreasonably good gear it’s not great.

[wintry flame]

Why not? Most of the snapshotting is intentional design lmao. Even Abom was changed to still incentivize snapshotting

[dense brook]

Is chaos bolt lich on Max roll a solid build ?

[rich stag]

What makes you say say? Didn’t EHG explicitly say they were changing Abom because snapshotting wasn’t intentional and was also unfun?

[vapid kindle]

if you exclusively try with full 4t7s you have no real concept of what average gear is and how long that might take with average gear. furthermore, the amount of benefit builds see from going from 1t7 or even 2t7 to full 4t7s varies substantially from build to build, so it’s not like you can just use full 4t7 gear and extrapolate from that information alone.

[wintry flame]

They said that and then redesigned the skill to be built where you want to maximally snapshot it, lmao. The only aspect of snapshotting they reduced is gear swapping

[old hull]

Abom's whole summoning process IS snapshotting, it's like the skill's identity to a certain extent

[wintry flame]

and even then it's not completely removed.

[old hull]

they mainly want to avoid gear swaps and skill point swaps to snapshot, though they haven't been totally successful in that

[wintry flame]

like idk most skills ask for some snapshotting and some builds need it to even compete, but like your shades, specific nodes, etc idk you're just shooting yourself in the foot by not taking the extra min to snapshot damage, area, pen, etc.

like every minion build that can should snapshot Lich's Scorn

it's free 150 flat and free cold pen

[rich stag]

While snapshotting exists of course it will be the optimal thing to do, that doesn’t mean it’s intended though.

[wintry flame]

Currently in their game design it is intended

It's purposefully designed that way

[dense brook]

Snapshotting is lame

[night hemlock]

#👨┃ask-the-devs-not-support-no-bugs message

Decided to ask for myself as I was curious, now you know

[wintry flame]

Snapshotting without removing skills or items is intended

it's literally how they designed abom, you have to spec the skills and have on the appropriate items on summon and can snapshot the absorbed minions

[wintry flame]

#👨┃ask-the-devs-not-support-no-bugs message

[night hemlock]

That doesn't say whether it's intended or not, just that it is. As far as I can tell it wasn't an intentional decision made by someone, just a side effect of how they did things.

[wintry flame]

Abom?

they literally designed it that way

[night hemlock]

Not going to repeat what I already and not something I care to argue over either, if a Dev comes out and says that it was an intentional decision then fair enough.

Also not here to say you should or shouldn't use it, I was merely curious.

[wintry flame]

idk it's what they said leading up to the skill rework and after the fact

[night hemlock]

Fair enough

[wintry flame]

there are unintended snapshots like double dread shade, some gear swaps, and probably shades in general being permanent even if items change, but they haven't addressed skill snapshots as a whole yet.

but abom yeah nah it's meant to be snapshot. I asked Mike about it on stream after the release, cause it just embraced snapshots instead of removing it for the skill

[night hemlock]

Seems odd but probably easier than the alternative

[wintry flame]

unless a snapshot gives like infinite damage, like puncture, they won't care enough to fix it currently 🙁

[night hemlock]

Probably a good idea given the state of things atm

They have much bigger fish to fry

[wintry flame]

ye, indeed. but the more they add to the system that enables it I feel the harder it will be to remove it. idk we shall see maybe the paradox class tech does something

[night hemlock]

Perhaps, we'll have to wait and see

[old hull]

Yeah, they did fix when you could snapshot infinite damage on abom, too, lol

but it's more of a design question in general, some snapshotting is very intentional and some is for technical reasons... when it's a problem is when it degrades player experience

and those are the things that get targeted for "fixes"

[obtuse quest]

Buff snapshotting is a thing whether you intend to do it or not and is basically unavoidable so there’s that

[old hull]

tbf, they could program it however they want, technically - might be a pain in the ass though lol

[obtuse quest]

Done not well enough is how we got the “abom dies on dino roar” bug

[peak flare]

I remember in one of dev streams Mike said the reason why they were removing (or diminishing) snapshot in season 3 was not because "snapshot is OP or bugged", it was because that creates a not fun playstyle in which you have to swap items, use your skills, swap items again everytime you enter the game.

[tacit plinth]

You can kill uber in 26 seconds by snapshots gear with warpath a lot of swapping for my taste but this game has quite a bit of snapshot

[old hull]

Warpath doesn't snapshot afaik, that insane stuff is hotswapping

ironically, the way they would eliminate that playstyle is by making warpath snapshot lol

well maybe not THE way, but it's a way, and one that would cause other problems

[rich stag]

Or just locking the inventory while in a map / in active combat

[wintry flame]

No way they do that, restricting inventory is way more problematic.

[old hull]

Yeah, imo cleanest solution would be to just interrupt channeling when you change gear

[wintry flame]

yupp interrupt, refresh, whatever anytime gear/skills change.

[sly forge]

yep

just test minmaxed wraithlord vs flame wraith again today

the damage of wraithlord is not even close to flame wraith

like double the time to kill dummy

I don't understand the where claim "wraithlord is better for bossing" come from in this season like this one https://www.reddit.com/r/LastEpoch/comments/1pjvayr/flame_wraith_vs_wraith_lord_necro/

[vapid kindle]

wraithlord has been pretty bad for quite a while now tbh it’s been living off reputation for forever

[sly forge]

but some people did not realize it in this season

and keep saying that wraithlord is better

like the post above

[obtuse quest]

It was still pretty decent last season that someone cleared 5k corruption easily online

This season? Ehhh

[sly forge]

I hope they won't nerf abomination to that point

please

at least make abomination remain a viable uber killer

wraithlord is so pathetic in this season

I beg EHG please don't nerf an S uber tier abomination to a non uber viable tier one

[vapid kindle]

that was 2 seasons ago and it was pretty bad even then, that person just liked the build a lot and had hella endurance

[obtuse quest]

Oh wait we ARE at season 3

Miscounted

[wintry flame]

it's because no one plays either build lmao

[dense brook]

Wraith looks really cool though, there's no good version now ?

[tender ridge]

wraithlord and flame wraiths are both pretty decent still iirc

they're just not top tier

also really depends on your goals. if you're not trying to push high or kill uber then they're both fine

[dense brook]

What counts as high

[wintry flame]

The threshold for high depends on the player tbh, but probably 2-3k corruption would be the average for high

[tender ridge]

yeah I'd say 2k is the start of "high"

I tend to set my minimum for at least "successful build" at like 500 if I'm playing some kind of jank homebrew

[wintry flame]

yeah 500-1k is like ideal, 300-500 is minimum, below that is just tutorial lmao

[tender ridge]

basically yeah. Abby questline requires you to get to like 300 min right?

and that's just to unlock Abby

[wintry flame]

yupp

[tender ridge]

speaking of homebrew jank, I'm thinkin Drain Life mainskill for my acolyte this season

not coal, just good old fashion drain life

[wintry flame]

do it! idk how good it scales tbh

[tender ridge]

pretty mediocre. It's a Spell DoT that can't overlap

i might revisit the necro dot build I played in early access. Spirit Plague for clear, DL for bossing

most likely warlock, but lich does technically have tools for it too

[wintry flame]

I see, sucks spell DoT is meh Wish it was better 🙁

[tender ridge]

yeah

coal is honestly nuts. does everything you want for drain life and also turns it into hits so you can scale with crit if you really wanted to

[wintry flame]

yeah it's funny how making it a hit just makes it better

[tender ridge]

yup. makes the damned scaling node way more consistent. gives you more ailment axes to scale with

[wintry flame]

DoTs need some love

[tender ridge]

specifically spell dots. Damaging ailments as a whole are generally okay even if I have my problems with their current system

i still don't like that every ailment build plays essentially the same

[wintry flame]

yeah no identity, very boring

[tender ridge]

Whenever I bring up that and mention that ignite and poison need some kind of cap or mechanic to differentiate them, people always go "But we already have spreading flames and plague just make more support for those"

yeah well that doesn't change that all of the other damaging ailments play the same way dammit. not to mention that spreading flames and plague are nearly the same thing just with a different damage type

[wintry flame]

yeah and those are meant to be supplements not main damage so idk lmao

[tender ridge]

my main suggestion has been to make ignite have a hardcap on stacks, and a multiplier for being either at cap or above X% of that cap. You can still have your rapid applications with lower chance, but it gives you room to have single large hits that apply lots of stacks at once

leave poison as it is with an infinite stack cap. damned needs like a million things so idk what exactly to do there

[old hull]

We got time rot as a slightly different one, and electrify is a little odd, but those are both 100% tied to a specific mastery also

That was pretty recent, so I hope they continue to spice the ailments up as they go

[tender ridge]

Time Rot is a good example of doing them differently. Electrify still functions the same as other damaging ailments where you just want to stack it to the moon

[old hull]

So yes kinda, electrify is odd because it has crit scaling and is a lot more limited on which skills you can use for it

LE big time lacks the "one big ailment" type setup

[tender ridge]

yeah

let me play ignite EQ dammit. Every time I look at Bhuldar's Wrath I cry at what could be.

because it just can't apply enough stacks to matter

[old hull]

Too real

[peak flare]

I mean, there's Brand of Deception and Witchfire, but you can argue that's not much.

[obtuse quest]

The problem with one big ailment stuff is that you lose out on application speed as a damage multi.
Witchfire and Time Rot mitigates this by just providing you with a seperate damage multi so fat that you’ll be stupid not to abuse it

[lost gale]

if there were any way to apply witchfire with skills it would be a really nice build

the no-skill-multis application doesn't have enough dps for single target

[old hull]

True, I often forget brands exist. The brand is fairly close to that, it just unfortunately is in the same boat as time rot, only on one mastery.

And since it's not a standard ailment, it makes it kinda wonky to support imo

[sly forge]

is there a way to make witchfire become as good as time rot?

[old hull]

No

Largely because time rot is just busted, but also witchfire is mega clunky even with the relic, hard to fix the mechanical issues

[tender ridge]

Honestly witchfire never felt that clunky to me. Chaos Bolt pretty easily handles both ignite and damned applications then activates both overloads itself

The problem I've had with it is that the single target damage doesn't scale well. It's fun being a walking stink cloud but killing bosses isn't great

[thorn flower]

I'm a returning player. I vaguely recall a way to make Volatile Zombies auto-cast on minion death, but I do not remember how to do it. I saw that Dread Shade can do it, but it seems to only apply to the minion whose health is being drained by dread shade.

My build idea is to auto-cast zombies which auto-cast sacrifice and infernal shades while spawning skeletal vanguards on death, with sacrifice chaining to multiple summons and creating Blood Spectres and drastically enhancing the damage of Infernal Shades. So, I'd be casting wraiths, which would cast zombies, which would cast sacrifice and infernal shades.

Also, what's a solid horde summon build?

[wintry flame]

so a couple things, the auto cast on death is in the VZ tree, it's a 30% chance at max investment. Blood Spectres aren't wraiths so they won't count for the ghost maker damage, as far as I know. Horde summon would be using the Maxroll leveling guide and doing something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKLfZQVkWQ4 or a diff variation

[thorn flower]

Thanks!

[thorn flower]

Ghost maker damage?

Back when I played more, fire wraiths were a solid horde damage setup. Is that still the case?

When VZ auto-casts on minion death, can it utilise the node that summons multiple at once?

[wintry flame]

you'd probably be looking to do somehting like this where it's just auto looping minions. You can accomplish this with ghost maker, and killing your own minions with infernal shade, which spawns wraiths (you can get a bunch to spawn if you spec and do the cooldown side of the tree on the right side), then minions die to spawn wraiths or zombies and you can have the cruelty item sac or have zombies sac to spawn blood spectres. I've never really messed with it outside of getting it to loop.

[wintry flame]

yeh ghost maker pretty sure only works with the summon wraith skill, wraithlord and spectres aren't wraiths.

Fire Wraiths are pretty good, but a different setup

VZ indirect casts only have a 10% chance to spawn multiple

[thorn flower]

Thanks for the clarifications.

Is ghost maker a unique? What item slot?

Wait, Ghost Maker says it requires you or your wraths to kill enemies.

Does it count for minion deaths?

[obtuse quest]

No

[thorn flower]

So, this is an on-kill build and the kills are required for minion looping?

[thorn flower]

Well, this is crazy. Sheesh. 😂

[thorn flower]

I am confused about this, though. Isn't it better to make as many damage instances as possible do the same type of damage?

[wintry flame]

it does count for minions deaths, in a way

Infernal shade kills on minions count as your kills

so it procs on-kill effect like Ghost Maker, ward on kill, etc.

[wintry flame]

what do you mean for this?

[thorn flower]

The build guide uses a lot of different damage types: physical, necrotic, fire, poison, and cold. Why use so many?

[wintry flame]

it's just cold damage mostly

all the minions are melee, melee perma wraiths, rogues, and death knights. It uses Lich's Scorn to get a bunch of flat cold, then Pebble's set to give your skeletons flat cold as well which with all the int you get a bunch of cold pen as well from dread shade and AoD which is cold converted.

The poison convert in Dread Shade is overwritten by the Cold Convert from the Catalyst. Rogue Skeletons are one of the better minion types. although I would've taken dread phalanx and removed warriors. Pyromancers, Cryomancers, and regular Skeletal mages are worse than DKs in many ways (the mage variants have a 14% less dmg modifier thats inherent). Wraiths are permanent, they wanted a lazy setup you can opt for casting them but mana sustain and keeping max wraiths becomes an issue also they are squishy. Dread Shade can be made to not drain HP with the Lone watcher node in the tree, but you can only have 1 shade. Set items can be shattered into shards now via a woven echo to craft them onto gear, but can't be slammed to uniques or anything. Sorry, saw you asked questions on the vid, idk if that guy will get back to you. @thorn flower

[thorn flower]

It's weird, then, that the guide has pyro mages and flame wraiths.

[thorn flower]

Thanks. And no worries. It was worth a shot asking anyway.

What woven echo lets you break down and slam set items onto stuff?

[wintry flame]

the pyro mages get overwritten by knights, I mean I def would've taken diff nodes. Flame Wraith has the more multi on it and it's just a chance to summon the flame ones, you just cast until you get 2 melee wraiths

[wintry flame]

https://www.lastepochtools.com/endgame/monolith/woven-echoes/the-great-bridge

[thorn flower]

Thanks!

[thorn flower]

What makes skeleton rogues the best?

[wintry flame]

more multipliers than other minion types and it's basic attack double hits, so it's effectively 150% dmg effect. It pairs really well with the Dread phalanx node and the individual operator node

[thorn flower]

More multipliers? How so?

[sly forge]

But they still deal less dps than flame wraith

[thorn flower]

Oh, I see now. The multipliers are split

[thorn flower]

Por que no los dos?

[sly forge]

?

[thorn flower]

Spanish for "Why not both?"

I just find it funny to say it that way

[sly forge]

Okay but not everyone understand Spanish

[thorn flower]

True.

The urge to just keep switching languages to commit to the bit is so real

😂

[wintry flame]

I mean flame wraiths is a very particular playstyle I believe rogues end up doing more dps than flame wraiths, especially in a minion army setup

[thorn flower]

I don't mind just going skeletons, mages, wraiths, dread shade, and infernal shade

[sly forge]

Hmm, how do you setup your rogues?

[thorn flower]

I still like my zombie auto-cast bonanza

[sly forge]

I use infernal and dread shade

And aura of decay

[wintry flame]

yeah that would work, I'd also figure out about going low life or something so you can spawn revenant when you use transplant on cooldown

[thorn flower]

So what skill should I not have on the bar, then?

[wintry flame]

revenant is a pretty big dps boost too, it's skill is actually crazy scaling lmao

[thorn flower]

Wait, really?

I thought it was a throwaway skill point

[wintry flame]

swap dread shade after it's placed and put an unspecced transplant

[sly forge]

What skill do you have for your rogues

So far I think of rogues, aura of decay, infernal shade, dread shade

But don't know which is the last one

[wintry flame]

https://www.lastepochtools.com/minions/revenant its CD skill is a throwing scaled blade that hits 150% like 6 times for a total of 1000% damage effect

[thorn flower]

Fair

[thorn flower]

What even the frick?

[wintry flame]

for what version?

[sly forge]

Poison?

[thorn flower]

Too many details aren't visible in-game

[sly forge]

Or do you do hit version?

[wintry flame]

crit probs does more damage, but poison is a great starter type build

[sly forge]

Hmm which weapon do you recommend for crit?

[sly forge]

Damn so the vitality and poison damage stack cannot beat crit?

[obtuse quest]

Considering lethal con is the core reason why the poison setup even works decently...

[wintry flame]

Cold crit is pebble set w/ lich's scorn. Phys crit is Cleaver for int/str scaling and then you can do a block setup with face of the mountain.

[thorn flower]

Is bone armour actually useful for skeletons?

[wintry flame]

I haven't done proper dps check on either version not snapshotted

[thorn flower]

If I'm going infernal shade, what minion do I chuck it on?

[sly forge]

Huh, same as abominatiom except you summon rogues instead of abomination?

[thorn flower]

'Cause its damage ramps like crazy

[wintry flame]

similar, less str more endurance.

[wintry flame]

what do you mean? how are you using infernal shade

[sly forge]

Is its clear speed better?

[wintry flame]

also which version do you want to play active or what?

[sly forge]

Because if not I would rather sticking to abomination

[sly forge]

Whichever does the most dps

That does not rely on snapshot that will likely to be disabled in future patches

[wintry flame]

I'm not sure without snapshotting

and no minion build compares to abom, but yeah most minions will have better clear speed

[sly forge]

Idk snapshot is not safe

[thorn flower]

For the minion buff version. You can get it to boost minion attack and cast speed

[sly forge]

Stormcrow used to be OP with snapshot

And the devs make them no longer work I think

[thorn flower]

I like having a skill to spam, or maybe some to cycle between to maintain debuffs and whatnot, and then a bunch others working passively.

[sly forge]

And recently the devs also fixed the frost wall snapshot for hydra

So for me snapshot=not safe in the future

[thorn flower]

Also, is sacrifice just a meme or no?

[obtuse quest]

Sacrifice is effectively a Lich build.

[sly forge]

Again I want whichever version does the most dps

[wintry flame]

oh yeah you want to make sure you put them on minions before dread shade, get minion fire res, get minion health regen, and either nerf your int or spell damage to put shades on.

[thorn flower]

Noted.

I was thinking of using a bunch of autocasting to get it to spam

[sly forge]

I can play flame wraith and abomination well

So I can accept all

[obtuse quest]

And run out of mana? Curelty is still unsolved for 2 seasons

[thorn flower]

Ok, fair. My spell damage doesn't matter, considering it's all about minion damage.

[thorn flower]

Curelty? I'm a returning player.

Idk what that is, sorry

[wintry flame]

Idk without snapshot. I said, do you want the snapshot version?

[sly forge]

How do you snapshot

Not sure if I will use it but I would like to know

[thorn flower]

Wow

I was legit just thinking of a meme.

Volatile Zombies auto-spawning from wraiths dying out, then casting infernal shades and sacrifice on death, with sacrifice chaining to multiple targets and spawning spectres while also enhancing the effectiveness of infernal shades.

Thought it'd be a funny loop

[obtuse quest]

Mana, what mana?

[thorn flower]

Yesss, mana is a thing.

[obtuse quest]

Yeah you'll get zero mana running that

[thorn flower]

Often, my weird auto-casting meme builds burn mana

[obtuse quest]

Sacrifice procs cost mana

[wintry flame]

you can just cast rip blood on minions for mana

[thorn flower]

Even when it chains?

[sly forge]

We have a similar playstyle called "infernal shade necro" for that, except you num lock to auto cast zombies.

[wintry flame]

or not worry about mana tbh

[obtuse quest]

The chain increases the cost.

[sly forge]

Good uber killer

[thorn flower]

Hahahaha which'd start the whole loop if it killed them, too

[wintry flame]

it does do damage mhm

[thorn flower]

Zeckar showed me. Looks cool.

I'm on my like... 10th alt?

[sly forge]

I love that one

[thorn flower]

Meme builds are life at this point

[sly forge]

Another side of necro

Uses its minion to empower its spells

And fire damage

[wintry flame]

put on lich's set, put 10 infernal shades out with minimal int/spell damage or summon skeletons with fire res, then put dread shade on one and you can swap gloves back to julra's and face of the mountain

if you play active version you can't snapshot

[sly forge]

What is active version?

[wintry flame]

run cold crit will be something like this, but I haven't updated it https://maxroll.gg/last-epoch/planner/t899l0qm

you can either get points for chaos bolts or do rip blood

but that planner is abit off lmao

[sly forge]

Hmm that's for cold version I see

[wintry flame]

yeah cold crit

[sly forge]

Can I just use the physical version from dinosaur relic like abomination?

[thorn flower]

Yeah, I've seen affixes built around that

[sly forge]

The poison version sucks

[wintry flame]

https://maxroll.gg/last-epoch/planner/0493l0q2#2 something like this ish once again an old planner

https://maxroll.gg/last-epoch/planner/zp24b0qf I use this as the snapshot version

probs can do the same for the active version but you want to figure out how to have rogues sustain infernal shade and dread shade for a good duration

[sly forge]

How does active version work?

As long as the build can reach the level of sabertooth BM then I'm fine with it

[wintry flame]

summon skeleton -> place dread shade -> place infernal shade on the skele do that constantly when one gets low

you get 5 skeletons each with an infernal shade and dread shade

[thorn flower]

Do multiple dread shades stack if their auras overlap?

[sly forge]

Why need to đo so with skeletons at low health?

[thorn flower]

Also, wouldn't it be good to run Bone Curse for the sheer volume of armour shred and mark for death?

[sly forge]

Well I do bone curse

For slow too

[thorn flower]

Shouldn't I rather just go mages, wraiths, bone curse, infernal shade, and dread shade?

[sly forge]

At least in playing abomination

[thorn flower]

Abomination do be stronk

I remember it one-shotting stuff

Like bosses

[sly forge]

Hmm you go for necrotic mage?

Idk I heard that mages are weak

Not sure since I did not try them

[thorn flower]

Honestly, I'd probably go pyromancers and flame wraiths to make the damage types match. Mark for Death is all res down.

[sly forge]

I don't recommend adding pyros

Their added damage is negligible compared to 20 wraiths

And they will be drain out of health very quickly due to the effect of the staff

[thorn flower]

What staff?

[sly forge]

Aberrant call

[thorn flower]

Tbh, it's probably somewhere in my hideous vault

xD

[sly forge]

I would rather spec transplant

[thorn flower]

Yep, it's in there somewhere

[sly forge]

For cooldown recovery speed

[thorn flower]

I don't want pure wraiths, though

[sly forge]

And defense

[thorn flower]

Does Dread Shade scale with bonuses to my spells?

[sly forge]

But that staff incentives you to go for temporary minions

[sly forge]

No?

[thorn flower]

Really? That's surprising

[thorn flower]

Aren't there alternatives, though?

I mean, if I went for the sacrifice meme build, it'd definitely work

[sly forge]

Well yes

[wintry flame]

no the only way to get get auras to overlap is if you have one that gives no aura buffs and only buffs the minion its cast on and having the aura one on, but you have to respec the tree to do taht

[wintry flame]

the shades slowly kill them

dread shade applies poison and infernal shade does constant dmg

[sly forge]

But why do you use sacrifice in a minion build?

[wintry flame]

rogues are betterthan mages

[thorn flower]

Because memes. I just want to see what stupid stuff I can pull off

Aberrant Call gives a solid chunk of mana regen, which could help compensate

[wintry flame]

no

[thorn flower]

But I love going with auto-casting shenanigans

[thorn flower]

Thanks

[sly forge]

For mana just spam rip blood

That's literally how acolyte handles mana in infernal shade build and many others

[wintry flame]

yuh

[thorn flower]

I'm honestly just experimenting to see what half-functioning garbage heap I can make. xD

[wintry flame]

yeah there is something to explore there, tbh

[sly forge]

Is there no way to make skeletal mage good?

I wish there is a good item that provides chance for minion to poison on hit.

[thorn flower]

You can use them for spell damage

[thorn flower]

You can be round-about and use bone curse with lots of global poison on hit chance.

Technically, each minion hit procs bone curse and then can poison

[obtuse quest]

Pretty sure their best setup is profane mages

And it's kinda mid

[thorn flower]

So, basically, if I want an army... Just no?

[sly forge]

Idk for army go for dragonflame staff

[wintry flame]

mhm idk how, mana stack, and use profane oblation but it's limited by having to scale your cast speed and theirs. idk tbh

[sly forge]

Idk if they can even be good with mana stack

[wintry flame]

yeah that's their only real scaling multi, so idk

[sly forge]

Damn their multiplier is pathetic

Guess I will try physical rogues

[thorn flower]

Wait, why is the mage multi bad?

[sly forge]

Their ONLY damage multiplier is your max mana

[thorn flower]

Also, don't affixes which say "increase number of skeletons" apply to both normal and mages?

[thorn flower]

WAIT WHAT?

[sly forge]

Normal only

[sly forge]

So if you stack 2500 mana they only do double damage

[thorn flower]

That's the only thing that multiplicatively increases their damage?

[sly forge]

Yes

[sly forge]

So yeah they suck

[thorn flower]

Bruh

Me hate

[wintry flame]

yeah they bad

[sly forge]

You stack 2500 mana and they only do the same damage to a flame wraith

[thorn flower]

I love the idea of having mage backliners in my own personal army

[thorn flower]

25 mana=5% damage at max points invested, so it'd be 500 mana for the 100% bonus

[wintry flame]

multis are like Abom > Zombies > Wraith > Rogues > Golem > Mages

[sly forge]

Oh wait 1% is per point

[thorn flower]

Yes

[sly forge]

So 500 mana is equivalent to a flame wraith

[thorn flower]

Definitely still a yikes

But I do have a very mild argument.

You can get them to fire a lot of projectiles, so if you give them flat damage, that'd apply to each projectile, no?

[sly forge]

Still you can't stack 2500 mana with an acolyte

[thorn flower]

You mean 500?

[wintry flame]

you can get % mana on acolyte

[sly forge]

I mean 2500

[wintry flame]

via chest and helm slams

[thorn flower]

You only need 500 for the full 100% damage bonus

[sly forge]

But 2500 is realistically impossible

I would say 2000 is the limit

But if you stack mana you will lose a lot of % minion damage and intelligence

[wintry flame]

yupp

[sly forge]

So 2000 mana skeletal mage will do much less damage than 4 flame wraith

[thorn flower]

Why again with the 2000, though, when you only need 500 to get to +100%?

[sly forge]

Because 500 sucks

Like it takes 500 mana for a skeletal mage to reach a level of a flame wraith

And you have like 5-7 max mages I remember

Tbh it might require more than 500 mana

Because I checked a mage vs a wraith where my mana is like over 300

And mage does half damage as flame wraith

[thorn flower]

And I assume you have like 10+ wraiths or something?

[wintry flame]

20

[thorn flower]

Yeah, makes sense why mages suck, then.

Just sucks that they suck

[wintry flame]

yupp pretty bad

[sly forge]

Damn just tried physical skeletal rogues

They deal slightly more dps than flame wraith

speed clear is between abomination and flame wraith

[fluid ridge]

physical not poison?

also between abom say 1000bp and flame wraith say 500bp can be from 501bp to 999bp amirite

:p

[sly forge]

yes

physical

[sly forge]

what is BP?

I would say somewhere between 600 and 650

[fluid ridge]

i mean like battle power lol

[sly forge]

yeah somewhere like 600 or 650

[fluid ridge]

still a bit far from abom

[sly forge]

nah

abomination is one of the big three most DPS

together with mana flay and bear

nothing can compare to abom

but rogue can be equivalent to sabertooth in BM

[fluid ridge]

what kind of gameplay is mana flay lich

[tacit plinth]

The best kind of gameplay to be honest super fun

[fluid ridge]

is it crashing into enemies while spamming buttons?

[sly forge]

flay triggers chaos bolt+ marrow shard

chaos bolt+marrow shard deals 20% more damage per 100 mana

some guy killed uberroth in 36 secs using mana flay lich

no snapshot and no bug

[tacit plinth]

Basically flay acts kinda like a teleport to enemies i click attack and if there is an enemy I am teleported to it then it dies then do same mapping pretty fast damage is amazing and I am tanky enough

[fluid ridge]

kinda similar to diablo's explosive blast, kinda fun

[tacit plinth]

Most fun I had since static orb frostclaw to be honest

[fluid ridge]

its quite expensive to build though, no?

[sly forge]

btw

is there no good dot warlock build?

for good I mean doing 1500+ corruption and can handle uberroth

I am aware of three uberroth viable warlock builds: profane veil, flame whip and zombie summon on profane veil

[obtuse quest]

Witchfire isn't good enough for uberroth, but can most likely handle 2k corruption.

[sly forge]

I will be surprised that you can kill a shade of orobyss at 2k corruption but cant kill uberroth

[obtuse quest]

Why should you? 2k corruption shade has 1/10 of uberroth’s health.

[sly forge]

But they are much more likely to kill you than uberroth

At least uberroth is predictable and some of its attacks can be tanked

[obtuse quest]

Uberroth’s time rot is 1/3 of shade’s hardest hitting skill. Shade only has 2x damage multi compared to uberroth

[sly forge]

Huh I don't quite get your point here

[obtuse quest]

Uberroth’s basic melee is 1/2 of shade’s meteor in damage

[sly forge]

Since some of my charcters can tank uberroth triple slam, melee attack

[obtuse quest]

You can absolutely tank 2k shade’s meteor then

[sly forge]

But instantly die to shade's meteor absorb and void shard

The attack that creates 3 black holes

Then each releases void shard

Another attack is it dash

[obtuse quest]

Shade’s fight also lasts much less time than of uberroth’s, so with enough dps you don’t need to do much, he had 1/10 ehp of uber’s

[sly forge]

This I agree if you have enough dps and can manage to dodge 1-2 attacks

[fluid ridge]

btw why abom didnt use apogee like wraithlord

[obtuse quest]

Nothing is dying.

How would apogee be useful

[sly forge]

But shade at 2k corruption still have a lot of hp and if you cannot kill it quickly you will die

Since its attacks are very hard to dodge

Harder to dodge than uberroth

[obtuse quest]

1/10 of uberroth’s. It’s much much less dps required

[sly forge]

But still a lot

[obtuse quest]

A decent amount yeah

But compared to uberroth? A 5 min uberroth fights becomes a 30 second fight for 2k shade

[sly forge]

And I don't believe ghostflame can kill it quick enough not to get hit by one of its attacks

[sly forge]

No way you can fight shade at 2k corruption at 30 min if you don't do sufficient damage or stun lock

You will have do dodge its attacks a lot

And find some chance to attack it

[fluid ridge]

chilling and doing more dmg to chilled enemies?

[obtuse quest]

Abom’s damage is major physical before shades

That only boosts necrotic and cold

[tacit plinth]

Meh when you have enough damage shades are a joke at 2k corr compared to uber

[obtuse quest]

We’ve seen builds that can clear shades like nothing but suffers against uberroth

Wraithlord is a good example

[sly forge]

Question is do you have sufficient damage for witchfire warlock?

[obtuse quest]

4k corruption? No issue.
Uberroth? Walled

[tacit plinth]

Witchfire is a clear build not a bossing one and thats ok

[fluid ridge]

Oh abom is mainly phys?

[sly forge]

If the build is like shatterstrike spellblade then what you said is true

[obtuse quest]

It probably ends up as 60% physical 40% necrotic

[obtuse quest]

Witchfire is basically “I will super dot 2/3s of the screen at once”

[fluid ridge]

So abom doesnt do penetration either?

[obtuse quest]

So it’s clear is basically peak

[sly forge]

But if the build is glacier sorcerer then I'm not sure

[tacit plinth]

You want to run cleaver anyways that way you can run the primal relic and abomination goes ham

[obtuse quest]

Minion pen is just here and there some amount

[tacit plinth]

You get pen from trex and physical damage melee flat

[fluid ridge]

What about that shield axe

[sly forge]

Nah

You need cleaver axe for optimal dps from trex

[obtuse quest]

Pure defensive. You probably don’t want that when cleaver exists.

[tacit plinth]

No you run cleaver and then you run shield 2 choices cheaper one is bastion,more expensive that gives more damage is the shield mountain and you stack endurance but that is a pain to get on every piece

[fluid ridge]

Even if you use cleaver you would want to use mountain shield no?

[sly forge]

Well most people use mountain shield

I use the horn shield for +16 strength

To maximize dps

[tacit plinth]

No really mountain shield takes a crap ton of gear to get going to get 100% block while I put bastion and I am pretty much tanky

[wintry flame]

How did you play it?

Yeah I’d do mountain shield over Bastion or any other

You can endurance stack pretty easy

[wintry flame]

Pen comes from relic and aod

[wintry flame]

Apogee is pretty meh tbh especially because you have to fit in a minion death and a melee attack to trigger that multi

[sly forge]

spec dread shade, infernal shade, aura of decay, summon skeleton and bone curse

infernal shade choose the nodes that gives maximum +2 shades

and we wont ever use it

now we have exactly 5 dread shades

For dread shade I spec the everlasting poison to let my skeleton live long

Now the playstyle is passive:

summon skeletal rogue and cast dread shade on them

stack endurance if possible

get t rex relic

for physical damage buff

bone curse is to buff skeletal rogues

same for aura of decay

the playstyle is almost the same as abomination except I use the julra obession gloves instead

no snapshotting required

guess necromancer just has great support for physical minions

damage is slightly better than flame wraith

[thorn flower]

What do you usually build on bone curse? Armour shred and mark of death?

[sly forge]

in maxroll I would rank them A tier

there is a node that boosts their physical dps in bone curse

and also yeah, mark of death

well the reason to play them is the same as "why do you go for sabertooth and raptor when you have bear or frog?"

I just want to find good minions other than abomination

and I have flame wraith and rogue now.

Also for rogue I don't spec vile flask

the damage is negligible

[thorn flower]

Oh, really? Interesting

[thorn flower]

Thanks for the ti[

*tip

Do flame wraith attacks count as minion spells?

[sly forge]

Most of their damage comes from melee attack

[sly forge]

armor shred can be done by slamming affix into julra gloves

[sly forge]

yes, flame wraith use spells

btw DO NOT EVER hear the saying that "wraithlord is better"

they are people whose mindset is stuck in patch 1.1 or 1.2 Idk

[thorn flower]

Wraithlord being the chonky wraiths?

[sly forge]

well I tested it takes double the time to kill dummy for wraithlord in this season compared to flame wraith

the damage is not even close

[thorn flower]

Wow

Also, I assume skeletal vanguards are a joke?

[sly forge]

well I have not measured their DPS

I just hate one thing

there is no good poison build in this game after all

poison skeletal rogue is my last hope

and they suck

[thorn flower]

Hahaha

[sly forge]

so for BM we have bear, frog, crow, sabertooth, raptor

for necro we have abomination, skeletal rogue, flame wraith

for falconer we have ballista

I still love this game for having many good minion builds and some of them are even S tier

for shaman we also have totem shaman which can be good after minmaxing

but not as good as flame wraith

[thorn flower]

Should I build minion crit chance?