feedback-discussion

[dull copper]

This game I swear

Either It disconnects the whole lobby or chinese hackers roaming around

[vital fractal]

i meant reduces the amount of damage drop off a bullet receives, increasing its effective range

[brisk timber]

On the contrary
If they would increase the recoil of HV further this could be a method to nerf it on high rof weapons but make it viable on the single loaders in particular

So you wanna play HV ammo? Bite the bullet of high recoil or play springfield

[vital fractal]

i think he agrees, since hes saying HV on single fire weapons wont notice the recoil- implying high rof weapons do (but even then they really dont but thats my addition)

also paxmas will never come, crytek ensures this

[hot vigil]

This, it was more to point out that HV downside doesn't matter on single shot weapons or weapons that have too slow of a fire rate to being able to fire before the recoil have settled back to 0 :)

[vital fractal]

Yeah, in general HV only really has upsides unless you run a silenced variant

Compared to FMJ which doesnt really have a downside at all, BUT unlike HV where the benefit can be made up with simple familiarity with the base MV- FMJ provides a benefit that cannot be made up (the damage drop off)

which is why I feel it is a straight up grade, especially in cases of compact/med ammo

[brisk timber]

Oh to me it read like "putting HV on single loaders is bad because it has minimal downside" so my thought was turning a bad mechanic into something worthwhile balance wise

Like a desired effect to mainly push single loaders

[brisk timber]

Christmas Event Santatek gonna lay a Pax Buntline under my tree!

[vital fractal]

I need pax deadeye 1 slot

w/ HV

but schoffield keeps NTRing Pax

[stark fulcrum]

@hybrid forum solid suggestions

Remington revolver and pax double would be awesome.

[vital fractal]

We don’t need more high rof weapons

I’d prefer an accuracy focused weapon like the pax bunt/deadeye

As for the Remington, I don’t see a niche it would fill other than being another swift essentially

[hybrid forum]

that's why I said maybe. I mostly meant that they should add a slow firing remington. It would reload just like pax, but would act like a medium ammo uppercut

also what's y'all opinion on the second part of my post

[stark fulcrum]

If we went the higher dmg route it would bridge the gap to uppercut somewhat. Same as a pax buntline (which they refuse to make lol) would do.

Also the fact we're already past the high rof barrier (which i don't like) means why not a pax double action. Especially being they actually existed in the 1800s.

We crossed the spammy stuff line long ago.

And im all for period accuracy in added weapons.

[karmic ivy]

I disagree with that. Hunt has not passed into "spam" territory. Not even close with the way reloading works.
Its the lowest ROF shooter I know of, with the least amount of bullets availible.

[elder ibex]

asking for remington two years

It would reload just like pax
better like this, gun should have unique feature to not being another mid ammo gimmick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyUC1YS9wfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiYVblWZY3M

[unreal adder]

https://youtu.be/QGzb-0PJadI?feature=shared

forgotten weapons did a video about the gun i suggested

[stark fulcrum]

No doubt, which is why I love hunt. All im saying is adding a period correct double action wouldn't break the game. As I said we crossed that line already with officer/carbine, cyclone, spitfire etc.

Id say I'm more about, did it exist back then vs what it does.

[karmic ivy]

I see.

[brisk timber]

@weak pine #feedback message
So in the past we had the problem that the events (that are meant to be played for a couple of weeks and give players something to do and to achieve) were power grinded by people in a handful of days if coupled to only playing.
But if you cap the ingame earning of event points tho people will complain "why should i keep on playing if i dont can earn further event points?".
So the points were bount to the challenges to give the feeling of proper progression over the course of weeks.
You hop in and you do your challenges - they are not even really grindy compared to past events.

Im not a big fan of challenges aswell because they are an artificial layer put ontop the game id would like to enjoy instead.
But i see their use in the Event system.

So maybe you have another idea how to solve this?

And on another note - maybe this is a bit controversial...
You can also pay your way through the battlepass without spending a single minute.
But if one doesnt want to take this route but also dont wanna spend the time...why even care for the battlepass?

[late quartz]

You can also pay your way through the battlepass without spending a single minute.
But if one doesnt want to take this route but also dont wanna spend the time...why even care for the battlepass?

It's always gonna come down to cost, both in terms of money and in terms of time.
The price of buying BP tiers is quite steep, the value for your money is extremely poor even if you just compare it to buying regular DLC
The time required to grind, and also the medium~long term commitment of needing to log on and grind every week for the whole event is probably also too high. This compounds with the fact that there's a sunk cost once you buy the pass; you don't buy the items in the pass outright, you buy the ability to grind for them. You're also punished for buying the pass later in the event as it will make your grinding less efficient.

Frankly I think the crowd of people who would grind the events out in a few days and then complain are like... sort of sabotaging it for everybody else LOL

Not having any chores to complete shouldn't be something to complain about, it's sort of mind-numbingly selfish. This'll be a tiny minority of players with an extremely abnormal amount of free time, they shouldn't really dictate the balance of the events.

Further, those events had next to no mechanical changes associated with them. These were the old christmas/halloween events where we had no pacts or special weather/ToD changes. All you had was pumpkins/presents or altars. The new events come with more meaningful gameplay changes that keep the game interesting even if you aren't actively grinding.

[vital fractal]

As always, whales with free time ruin it for others-

[weak pine]

Anything but challenges would be better. I come on hunt to relax, have some fun, get cool stuff delivered to me by crytek devs. When I am cut off from being able to access this new stuff because of a massive wall of grind that I am literally unable to do due to other responsibilities, why should I play the game? There is nothing new for me in there, I am basically paying to be provided chores on which I am on a time limit for and with very specific instructions. This is not healthy.

Also.. paying to finish the battlepass? That is somewhere around £80-100+ for like 10 skins? I am paying £10 for 1 skin, a syringe skin that nobody else can see and charms (which nobody wants, they are literally little pieces of garbage stuck to you gun, they are so boring), just so I can get 1 I like out of the 9 other uninteresting ones? This game just needs to get out from my steam library at this point because endless skin DLCs and extremely scummy events is not what I got the game for.

For an idea on how to fix it? Make challenges less limited, I don't want to kill 5 bloodhounds with poison ammo, this makes me get a poison gun, which I despise or a useless poison grenade taking up my inventory space, most likely only getting 1 of 30 points for that task too. Let it be more of "Kill hunters", "Banish targets" etc etc. Things that are more broad that don't require you to sacrifice all the fun when making interesting loadouts.
Another idea on top would be to add a way to pick what to work towards, I don't need 2 gun skins I will never use + 3 useless charms just so I can get that 1 cool skin I actually like 4 weeks into the grind.

[radiant river]

The battlepass value if compared to buying skins for blood bonds is pretty good

I agree the time it takes is decently high but most battlepasses are like that

[late quartz]

That was in reference to buying all the levels in the pass outright

Also, I didn't say buying skins in-game for BBs, I said buying DLCs outright

[radiant river]

Ah ok

[late quartz]

The BB shop is majorly inflated

But DLCs are much better value and for $10 you can get a fair number of skins ,comparable to the BP in some case

[weak pine]

I finish league battlepasses without even doing any tasks provided, I just play and get rewarded for it, dont even need to buy it to get points faster. Hunt battlepasses are not suited for the audience in my opinion, most poeple have jobs + education. There is no time for grind unless you're a full-time twitch streamer etc.

[late quartz]

More if you grab them from the Crytek store with a discount code or on sale

[radiant river]

The main issue imo is how long it takes to unlock the new weapons

If they lock cosmetics behind money or a grind that's fair, but if you're playing casually the guns take forever to unlock and in the past that's made me not try the event at all

Whereas if I could play with the cool new guns I might be inclined to play more to progress the pass

[radiant river]

I think the main differences is the challenges in hunt is that lots of challenges won't get complete unless you focus on it. For me compared to the apex and valorant battle passes (purely anecdotal) they take about the same amount of time, hunt just takes a more concerted effort

Which can also be frustrating when you get bad challenges and have limited time

[weak pine]

This is pretty much the reason I dont like it currently, it is literal chores, I have to finish them before i can actually be allowed to do what I want or else I lose the 1kBBs I invested

[little jackal]

I assume distributing point gains evenly across the entire event duration is a way to keep a consistent concurrent players metric, not because of the people completing events in one weekend.

[vital fractal]

@vernal haven great points

Honestly Roll backs of decisions shouldn’t be as impossible as them seem

It’s clear Crytek overstepped in allowing too many custom ammos to be used amongst too many different weapons

[late quartz]

It's a bit of both

They're sort of intrinsically linked. Players who have a ton of time clear the event too quickly and go "why play anymore", average players are enticed into coming back week over week

[vital fractal]

We agree on something 🗿

[little jackal]

yeah I'm sleepy. I meant not because of time-whales complaining about it

if they're a minority anyway, who cares

[vital fractal]

You’d be surprised

The loudest, squeakiest wheel does get the grease sometimes

[vital fractal]

But I agree with this sentiment

[late quartz]

These are also the most dedicated players who are most likely to continue playing the game and spend money on it, they're a demographic that pays better

[vital fractal]

I don’t know, the average fan (more dedicated than average player) isn’t clamoring for a longer challenge cycle in this case

But I get what you’re saying

I feel like the players going for a much longer event layout are actually very sparse, even within that dedicated fan base population-

I’m not saying most of the dedicated fanbase would enjoy a one day event either but, in terms of the length of the events- I think it’s pretty universally agreed by the fans that it’s a bit too long/chore like

But Crytek makes it that long for a reason, it’s a business after all

And considering they want to push BB sales, the strategy is to drain our saved BBs so we can buy more

It’s why they put headsman back on sale despite the glaring problems with it -> more people want an advantage so they buy it -> event ends and sales slow -> they nerf headsmen after everyone is 1000 bb poorer

[late quartz]

Yeah I agree the "average fan" isn't asking for this, but the people who are asking for it are also more committed to the game

Feeding your whales is profitable

I mean I think it's pretty uncontroversial to say Crytek is pretty bad at balancing events and since As the Crow Flies has consistently leaned on the more predatory side of the spectrum rather than the more generous one

It's not a surprise that they'd go "oh the people who buy every DLC want more to grind for? Fuck it, add a time gate to the grind"

[vital fractal]

Yeah, it’s not surprising-

It’s just disappointing that one can predict in quite a few games. a minority of players tend to cause changes that aren’t truly popular for a majority of players

[late quartz]

Crytek seems to be having a particularly hard time finding a balance that gets them the income they need without burning out their players or making them feel taken for granted

Light the Shadows was the last event I really got invested in and I basically decided afterwards that they weren't getting any more of my money lol

I was happy to buy DLC before but at this point the monetization is far too intrusive. Needing to grind or wait 2 months to use any new weapons is pretty goofy

[vital fractal]

I really do wonder if the new monetization truly helped bring in a more steady revenue stream

Before I see people would buy a dlc here and there and then make up the difference with the BBs they earned

Now I heard in response to the changes, people decided to stop buying DLCs-

Maybe the new event scheduling and emphasis on DLC is to make up for that? But at the same time I’m tired of constant events…

[late quartz]

I'm sure they're making more money than they used to, it's almost certain

The average number of purchases a player makes has almost definitely gone up due to the battle pass

[prisma vector]

Noone wants to play rain and fog half of their games, fix this =please

[vital fractal]

Well, I’d actually prefer more inclement and extreme weather

These “infernos” pale in comparison to the average bondfire, nonetheless an actual forest fire

[mellow finch]

Get moderators and admins who aren't 500Lbs+ and don't have small pp energy 😁

So silly to have a bunch of racists run a official discord, but that’s life

[brisk timber]

And what about this is discussion worthy?
I mean ..ok
Whats wrong having a small pp?

[mellow finch]

I mean it’s pretty blatant why it’d be worth mentioning

But I’ve wasted enough time, chow chow

[brisk timber]

I mean you probably dont even want to discuss but vent

Here are just normal players discussing game mechanics and stuff

#feedback is probably better to vent

[radiant river]

@cloud siren there's a setting that turns that off

It's hidden somewhere I think in ui settings

[cloud siren]

Thanks for that

[last sky]

Getting one shot by a baseball bat to the arm is fucking stupid. Fix that shit.

[carmine needle]

eh, more like make the other blunt weapons make sense looks sadly at railroad hammer

[covert imp]

is there anyone who use axe or railroad hammer beause they want to

its literally the most useless thing ever

[carmine needle]

Eh, I like the axe, but rn the bat has wiped them

hammer was never good sadly, hoping they show it some love

[covert imp]

the axe feels so sluggish in my opinion

would take saber instead

honestly i think they should make it so tomahawk works with weapons you bring

at least you would have an option

but i know it would make people trade weapons

[carmine needle]

Yeah, before bat i mostly took saber

[covert imp]

with friends

[carmine needle]

would be cool. I'd love to be able to throw bomblance akin to how shovel is thrown

[covert imp]

yeet

[carmine needle]

even if it becomes a pickupable weapon if i miss

yar

[covert imp]

it could be a funny secret interaction

if you have 0 ammo

on your bomblance

you chuck it

[carmine needle]

truth

I love me a good bomblance stick, but kabobing someone?

gimme

[covert imp]

hunt needs secret interactions

[carmine needle]

bonus if you can do it to any weapon

[covert imp]

it would honestly be so good

[carmine needle]

pistol out of ammo?

yeet it

[covert imp]

XD

if its a uppercut it one shots from head

that thing looks like solid 10 pounds of metal

[carmine needle]

deals like... 2 damage, but be funny af

[covert imp]

brass

[carmine needle]

truth

i have a replica that's pretty damn heavy

[covert imp]

damn

like a real colt navy revolver?

[carmine needle]

yeah

[covert imp]

america

[carmine needle]

well, "real"

[covert imp]

iwant some of that freedom for myself

[carmine needle]

It's a replica cap gun

[covert imp]

so it fires balls?

ball & cap

[carmine needle]

Sorry, at work. It fires caps- lil gunpowder packets that make a bang like a gunshot but not projectile

Have a glock for actual defense lol. Got the replicas for a Hunt themed DnD campaign

[slim forum]

yea the whole team just got taken out by the bat, they should make that a 3 swing

[humble quest]

A melee being 3 swings to kill is basically never going to be used

[stark fulcrum]

2 swings even

[reef violet]

I’m not sure that’s 100% true depends on the swing rate and the damage multiplier to the head + monster effectiveness

[carmine needle]

Don't do to the bat what was done to the RR hammer. IMO the bat should have been a medium, not a small, and could have a slightly slower swing but it should still absolutely kill on a single swing.

[vital fractal]

A 3 swing to kill melee is absolutely useless in pvp and will kill the weapon- a melee that takes the slot of a gun will never be used if it takes three swings to kill a player to the body-

Dusters take 3 hits to the body, but are a tool slot + blunt + Stam efficient- even then, they are not considered great tools due to the lack of pvp reliability unlike the knife or godsend known as the Knuckle Knife (I love dusters because they are cool tho)

Just run Hornskin vs the bat, otherwise we will end up with another hammer situation

[brisk timber]

Is it true tho that bat kills 1shot to the arm?

If thats the case that sounds really a bit too much

But i also think shotbolts or general any weapon in the game shouldnt kill on a limb hit.

[vital fractal]

It’s not to the arm

It goes through the limbs like other melees

And hits the chest

[hazy quartz]

i just tested it by attacking the arm from the side by being just slightly in range and it seems to be the exact same damage multiplier as upper torso

can't verifiy if actually is hitting the arms tho

[vital fractal]

That must be a bug then cause I’ve survived a bat hit without horn before

They should release the multipliers on a page somewhere

[hazy quartz]

heavy attack to the legs deal 102 damage

the thing because of the horizontal swing its almost impossible to only hit arm. guess they gave them the same multiplier so it feels more consistent and people are not wondering why their attack doesn't kill sometimes

the swing is so wide i can hit a dummy who is not even on my screen

dummy to the left dies which we could argue should be a arm hit.

[crude karma]

what is up with so many people asking for the rocket ball chain rifle/pistol

like jfc

[vital fractal]

Yeah

It’s been spammed and it’s has to be a meme at this point

[next yarrow]

Why is everyone asking for shotgun nerfs recently? They're hardly strong.

[vital fractal]

People get angry that entering within 8-10m of a close range weapon means that the close range weapon performs well

especially slugs for some reason-

[low inlet]

Yeah if u die to shotty it’s kinda ur fault

Literally just stay away

[vital fractal]

people act like shotguns are instant wins when they absolutely are not

they require you to aim and be on target, slugs even more so-

[crude karma]

man, the amount of times someones survived cuz of the shotgun spread being just a smidge enough to where they dont die, shotguns really dont need that much of a nerf

[vital fractal]

they dont need a nerf period

[rotund obsidian]

i definitely think slugs are overtuned, at least on certain guns

they really should be balanced per gun, not by the barrel length category

[vital fractal]

shot guns are all balanced by barrel length- the only thing that changes is the spread, with slug the spread doesnt change leading to the current similar/same performance in all shotguns of the same category- I think thats fair

slugs already got nerfed and have been fine since tbh

[next yarrow]

Buckshot needs a buff tbh

Slugs are mostly fine

[vital fractal]

buckshot on crown, terminus, and some of the handcannons need to be tightened

[low inlet]

Happened to me before where this dude with terminus shoots me and only does like 25 damage then shoots me again and completely misses

I put him down with chain pistol

[vital fractal]

you know its an issue when handcannons are more consistent with pennyshot lmao

(and yes i already watched cornf and i reject his solid, evidence based numbers with my personal experience lol)

[rotund obsidian]

buffing the crown

[vital fractal]

its very unreliable without slugs or pennyshot

if i was forced to use buckshot, youre generally better off with the slate (which is insane honestly) or another shotgun

seriously the slate is probably the best shotgun in game overall

also, it looks like they changed the crosshairs on lemat slugs

dualies at least

before you aimed in, and the crosshairs got BIGGER- now they are reasonable sized and get small when aimed in

i just wish lemat had pennyshot 🗿

would be perfect to supplement my perringer

[rotund obsidian]

speaking of lemat why is that thing's shotgun so horrible

[trail carbon]

I kinda wish shotguns got a complete overhaul from what they are right now. Shotguns currently feel too unreliable to be fun to use in my opinion

[radiant river]

Slugs

[vital fractal]

because it was made back when combo weapons alone meant it had to be mediocre in all stats to balance being 2 guns in one lmao

and the LeFat just follows it for tradition

[trail carbon]

Slugs are kinda silly. They don't really have a downside, which is weird.

[rotund obsidian]

the only real downside is that you can be punished for not aiming down sights, and the ammo count

[vital fractal]

They do, ridiculously low ammo reserve and require increased precision via ADS

[rotund obsidian]

which imo isnt quite enough for the massive upside

[trail carbon]

Yeah, having to aim isn't a downside. Low ammo count isn't a massive issue either

There's a way around that

[vital fractal]

the loss of jump/mobility shooting can be huge

[rotund obsidian]

needing to aim definitely is a downside, it takes extra time and increases the cycle time for certain guns iirc

[radiant river]

You can't hipfire it

(reliably)

[vital fractal]

besides, slugs are only worth it within the ohk range- beyond that, you are better served with a compact rifle

[radiant river]

Being able to jump shot hipfire with buckshot is very strong

[trail carbon]

Yeah, I can see that

[rotund obsidian]

I dunno, slugs have a pretty damn long two tap range

[vital fractal]

less on average compared to compact ammo rifles with less ammo, fire rate (except crown), and worse handling

[trail carbon]

What irks me the most is that slugs get pen and flechettes dont

[rotund obsidian]

yes you're better off with a compact but you also get the insane upside of a oneshot up to like 15m

slugs not only oneshot at a better range but they also mitigate some of the downside of shotguns, which is that it deals like 2 damage past the effective range

[vital fractal]

as i said, its good really only in OHK range otherwise you can just swap to your secondary for the same benefit tho

not saying its not worth mentioning but its not ideal to use slugs for the two tap potential

because buckshot has some nice two tap potential too, and flechette has AMAZING two tap potential

[trail carbon]

Sure, but the same argument can be said for those two

[rotund obsidian]

and flechette trades off oneshot potential for that twotap

[trail carbon]

Why not just pull out your pistol

[rotund obsidian]

buckshot's two tap is.... not that crazy

[vital fractal]

yeah but no one is arguing that flechette is op either lmao

[trail carbon]

When will we get pen on Flechettes

[vital fractal]

thats my point, youll do it with slugs or buckshot- so its not something to really have as a slug strength

flechette pen would be nice

atleast one wood plank

[trail carbon]

I mean, I was saying that because you had said it earlier. There are some instances where you'll need to two tap with slugs. And it's far easier than with buckshot

[trail carbon]

It should be able to pen like medium ammo at least. Perhaps more

Flechettes were originally designed to penetrate better than buckshot

So I was excited for shotgun fmj.

And it turned out to just be bleed amm9

[vital fractal]

yeah but, its useful in such niche situations that- i wouldnt really consider it when considering how to balance it- currently slugs are fine as it, they reward precision but come at a cost otherwise- they are not straight upgrades like many believe

[vital fractal]

flechettes are garbage irl tho so at this point their justification cant be based on irl but rather just the idea lmao

I say compact ammo level of pen would be fair at range

[trail carbon]

Flechettes can still just kill you

[vital fractal]

i mean so can suffocation from mama maye but there are far more efficient ways

[trail carbon]

How are they garbage?

[vital fractal]

look up ballistic testing of 12g flechettes, they rarely fly straight or penetrate deeply

very inaccurate, expensive, inconsistent, damaging to barrels, less damaging than typical buckshot loads- i mean

its not a good shotgun ammo

now, a SINGLE flechette (aka essentially a saboted slug) can do very well

as an AP round

[trail carbon]

What kind of flechettes are we talking about here

[vital fractal]

The most common 12g load is hardened steel darts

to my knowledge

[trail carbon]

Well, there's still different numbers of darts

[vital fractal]

?

[trail carbon]

I think hunts is 6 darts

Meaning they're larger

The traditional flechette load is 14 little darts

[vital fractal]

yes but they dont work as effective as buckshot which can be different sizes too

but since this is a video game

i like the idea of flechette having increased pen at range on top of bleed and tighter spread

[rotund obsidian]

pfft, why even bother pulling out a pistol when crown slug deals more at even past 40m

this shit is more outrageous than i thought

[vital fractal]

this is why i bring a nitro

with shredder so i am always in optimal damage range

[rotund obsidian]

47m two tap range on crown slugs to upper chest

meanwhile pax can't even two tap at that range

with base ammo, at least

[trail carbon]

Can't find an amazing picture, but here is ballistic gel for 8 flechette darts in 12 gage

[vital fractal]

if you run fmj like everyone does, you absolutely can lmao

[vital fractal]

yes, they can be effective but now realize the most common 9 pellet 00 2 3/4" 12 g shells can do the same thing for cheaper and more consistently

[rotund obsidian]

pax fmj two tap is like 55m

[vital fractal]

theres a reason flechette hasnt been adopted in 12g in many organizations

if any actually?

[vital fractal]

ya, within the same range BUT you dont have to use a slug to do it

[trail carbon]

Buckshot usually gets stopped in the gel if I remember correctly.

[trail carbon]

Yeah, because it doesn't pierce armor

To be fair, it wasn't made to be AP, just be able to pierce walls, and other things. I believe it was originally made to pierce the thick hide of a hog.

[vital fractal]

overall in game flechette should get pen i agree

[trail carbon]

Didn't work, because hogs are supernatural creature from hell

But yknow

Yeah, you gave me an excuse to look up some bullshit related to flechettes. As a gun need, I couldn't pass that up

[vital fractal]

i understand, i adore the subject

[trail carbon]

Overall, I kinda want shotguns to change. They just feel not very fun to me right now. Considering you either die instantly to them, or take no damage from them. It just kinda sucks that hunt did what other games do with shotguns.

I'd love increased range, decreased spread, and somewhat decreased damage to counteract it.

[vital fractal]

Enh, they currently are unique compared to rifles- i feel like changing that would remove that uniqueness

play with flechettes to get an idea of how ur idea would be like

[rotund obsidian]

yeah i'd like the damage ranges to be a little closer to flechette, but obviously still able to oneshot at really close range

[trail carbon]

Well yes, I think some of that uniqueness would go away. However, I don't think that uniqueness for uniqueness sake is good

Especially if that uniqueness makes it unfun to use/play against

[vital fractal]

no but it serves a role

a specified role, cqc

and its fine to play against considering we have anti cqc tools/weapons

no one likes losing though so- you cant defend the idea of losing lol

[rotund obsidian]

have yall used dragonsbreath on the lemat/lematc? its actually comical

[vital fractal]

i dont use dragons breath at all

[rotund obsidian]

lematc's buckshot is actually half decent for what it is, but holy shit dragonsbreath is horrendous

[vital fractal]

on bomb lance its insane tho

[trail carbon]

Well, I think it's currently contributing to the stalemate meta pretty hard. Since, if you have a shotgun, you don't want to come outside because firstly, you can't compete with the range of rifles, and secondly, you one shot anyone who would come inside.

[rotund obsidian]

wtf kinda anti cqc tools you rockin with

electric lamp? penny derringer? 💀

[vital fractal]

People say theres a hardcore stalemate meta but... I rarely go a game with that issue unless I enable that playstyle, most of the time its just people slowly working around defenses until an opening is allowed

[vital fractal]

all explosives, fanning, pulling back, wall banging, team work-

again shotguns arent an instant win

also penny derringer should be buffed

[rotund obsidian]

I'd just like to see penny derringer made cheaper tbh, it's kinda meant as a meme tool but it should be dirt cheap to reflect that

[vital fractal]

it needs reserve

i NEED reserve

[rotund obsidian]

yeah it should be 2/2 and 2/4 with frontiersman tbh

[vital fractal]

tru

[stray horizon]

anyone know what this gun is I don't know have enough info to write up a suggestion but it looks sick

it's from 1900

not too anachronistic

[vital fractal]

it looks like its a horrible addition to hunt

[stray horizon]

I mean it's got that little text there but I don't know how much detail they want

[stray horizon]

it would be such a good meme gun though

[rotund obsidian]

I feel like i definitely saw that exact image in suggestions recently

[stray horizon]

I mean isn't that what it's about now, adding ludicrous contraptions at Hunt dollar prices that you would never bother paying for

[stray horizon]

yessssssss

[stray horizon]

not complaining by the way I'm here for it let's get weird

that's the best part of this game is the non-traditional "modern warfare" gunplay

and what's more fucked up than a revolver with also a clip literally what even is that shit

[rotund obsidian]

can't seem to find it, maybe it wasn't in suggestions

but either way, i feel like general consensus is that a lot of people don't want more fast guns in the game

[vital fractal]

i just dont support even more high rof fast reloading weapons in thisgame

the ironside and alamo are cool but awkward and still slow

and reload super slowly lol

so they are good

the cyclone shoots fast, reloads decently quick top off or even from empty- bad

[rotund obsidian]

#game-ideas message there was this, which is the same gun

cyclone is obnoxious, but doesn't seem terribly overpowered, from what i've seen. Glad the price is that high, it keeps the pickrate low, which it should be.

I think officer carbine should get the same treatment of a big ole price hike

[vital fractal]

officer carbine was a mistake

and officer just gets the brawler lol

i take that back

no carbine in general for nagant lmao

[rotund obsidian]

i mean base nagant with a carbine wouldnt be so bad

i think lemat carbine is cool, love that gun

[vital fractal]

yeah but i also like stocked pistols

so id wanna keep that

lemat carbine is cool on paper, and i would adore a pax carbine

[rotund obsidian]

true yeah it already has the precision

I wish the shotgun special ammos for lematc were better though (besides slugs lol)

[vital fractal]

yeah.. again

all lemat should get penny

[rotund obsidian]

i agree tbh

i'd take it for uppermat and lemat pistol but i dunno about lematc

[vital fractal]

for sure

[unreal adder]

might have been the automatic pistol i suggested

automatic revolvers are a thing too

[rotund obsidian]

I think that's a slightly different one, but I saw that one too

I very distinctly remember seeing that exact blueprint though, with the cylinder that holds two rounds.

maybe whoever posted it deleted the suggestion, or maybe it was just posted in general or something

[brisk timber]

Amen
Thats what im preaching for a long time now.

Cut the OHK range in half but double the general damage dropoff range or so.

The gameplay would actually open up way more because in the significant ranges you would have way more 2tap duells.

While a rifle would still avoid going super close and a shotgun avoid going super distant - there would be a fighting range where the two meet on relativetly equal grounds.

Single loaders like the Romero could maybe even still retain a high OHK range for the long reload window as compensation.

But repeating shotguns would gain more consistency over range in tradeoff for higher RoF and lesser OHK range.

When i picture it in my mind it looks so much more fun shotguns actually peeking outside a compound because they have the range to do so. While rifles would take a bit more risk pushing cause the wont get insta 1tapped from 10m.

Gameplay would flow so much better.

[trail carbon]

Yeah, I agree. Unfortunately any suggested change to shotguns is met with mass disapproval.

[radiant river]

would need to nerf crossbow aswell

[brisk timber]

Maybe. Shotbolt probably.
But i think regular crossbow or bow have still big downsides like longer reloads, no penetration, veeery slow MV, one single shot - compared to repeating shotguns.

[little jackal]

nerfing shotguns so people would peek outside. Sounds like a plan. Or does it 🤔

close to mid is what secondaries are for

making shotguns better than pistols at that is meh imo

[next ember]

I mean... one is a shotgun. The other is a tiny gun

The issue is that if you neft shotguns they become completely useless. Unless you want to spend 600 for the crown, if a shotgun doesn't 1 shot body then it is garbage. It would just do the same damage as a rifle but you can't use it at long range. Sure, its easier to get a head shot with it but considering that you can't even use it at medium range, it would be dumb to use a shotgun most of the time.

[little jackal]

exactly my point

[dusky tapir]

sadly can't undo that by making it into the single action cuz then lemat carbine says hi

[late quartz]

Shotguns are really only an issue because there aren't effective counterplay options. The tools we have to disrupt powerful positions and dislodge players off of strong cover are very finite and are generally countered by team play and crossfire. A frag bomb might move a shotgunner out of position temporarily, but a teammate will often be able to prevent you from making use of that opportunity to push.
Its much easier to play passive than it is to play aggressive in Hunt, and this is especially true now that the flash bomb has been nerfed.

I don't think shotguns are frustrating to play against, I think passivity is frustrating to play against.

I almost never feel like a lost fight against a shotgun was unfair, with the slate and C&K being the standout exceptions

[unborn smelt]

I don't really think theres a way to adress that without loosing lots of Hunts tension

Hunt is kind of designed around having limited ressources. So handing high grade nades out all willy nilly is kind of counter productive to Hunts theme.

And usually the shotgunner plays passively inside because they have limited options to fight outside.

Like you make shotguns really weak and you'll get most people tactically waiting outside for the bounties because they picked rifles.

The passive playstyle is largely due to hunts high consequence design

[wary whale]

just ran into my first cheater in a long time. Something new on the market?

[subtle lichen]

I've actually found that a lot of people in my filthy scrub 3 star range don't know what to do if you play aggressively after securing the bounty. Making a breakout quite often catches the rifle toting passives off guard.

But then again if you come up against a team who have deliberately tanked their MMR to clown on the lowbies, you get domed the second you step out of the lair.

[stark fulcrum]

As many "issues" as some say shotguns have, that same logic can and has been applied to all else. Just as many complain about fanning, Bush sniping, long ammo in general. Theres a reason long ammo is and has always been meta. I'm totally againest changing shotguns or any other weapon category unless its a sweeping change across all. Otherwise, its a I dont like dying to x so it needs changed statement.

[covert imp]

is there an "ask crytek" section or something

maybe like an event of some sort

[flat sandal]

At least the penetration should be changed so you can't get one shot trough corners anymore. Feels super dodgy every time. Still don't really know what penetrates what tbh but pretty sure it's detrimental to gameplay for shotguns.

shoot outs indoors without shotguns involved are super fun whenever they happen, just saying^^

comapring shotguns to long ammo doesn't really work imo as they don't compete. Is "long ammo is meta" something that shotgun enthusiasts say? I read it a lot but can't really fathom how that could be the case. Perhaps the time to kill average should be increase across the board though.

[peak berry]

you can really lower your mmr like this constantly picking yourself up

ik its getting reworked but thats pretty crazy

[distant cloak]

How about fixing matchmaking?

[brisk timber]

I dont think that shotguns would massively lose their appeal if the OHK range would be lowered.
It would be comparable to the 2-Slot variants we have right now for the OHK range BUT with the addet benefit of an extremely longer damage dropoff. So shotguns would get way more reliable and probably alot more deadly out of their close combat zone.
Its also a thing that shotguns really feel inconsistent on range right now aswell making most shotgun players scared to even attempt mid range fights at all.

So you would basically still have a weapon for indoors thats extremely deadly when you hold corners and angles

What further distinguishes a shotgun from a rifle on midrange is the pellet spread which would make it way more reliable for hipfire 2taps - you could compare that to flechette but with OHK ability in close combat

I think it would be massively more enjoyable to play the upper variant of a shotgun and most player would probably aswell if they adjusted to it.

[little jackal]

real life huh

[brisk timber]

its an google pic mate dont pick on single words pls

[little jackal]

I just don't understand what problem is being solved here

[brisk timber]

its about the general idea i couldnt care less about realism

[brisk timber]

some people never saw a problem with flashbangs

you maybe dont see one with shotguns

[little jackal]

yeah no shit lol

[brisk timber]

i dont say my subjective thinking is the truth tho

[little jackal]

I just typed exactly that

[brisk timber]

But we are here to talk ideas arent we?

On another note - to not make the impression im just shitting on shotguns - i also would love to see to make long ammo less about pure damage but rather range and penetration - basically nerfing their pure damage output and give that crown to medium ammo.

So we would have guns that have their usecase niches instead of some kind of damage/price tier

this is like a really simplyfied model i always had in mind

[vital fractal]

The pic you use would support making shotguns like insurgency sandstorm where you can one tap people with buckshot out to around 50m 👁👁

[brisk timber]

what? shotgun pellets not even in this pic xD

[vital fractal]

In regards to this?

[brisk timber]

ah thats the general damage range
not OHK range

it would be comparable to the 2-Slot variants we have right now for the OHK range BUT...

[vital fractal]

I mean, flechettes exist already doing what you are asking for already

Also two slot shotguns suck with buckshot, if my 3 slot slate or specter acted like a terminus handcannon at that range- even if it two shotted- I would never use a shotgun again

I would literally just rather use a rifle which would be a near guaranteed two shot all the time rather than get pissed when my long barrel shotgun doesn’t one tap a guy 7m away

[brisk timber]

Yea flechette is basically what i feel like is where it should be at + to retain the OHK ability at closerange to body that flechette right now doesnt have.

I know many people wouldnt like it because it would drastically alter a gameplay they are used to and rely on
But this is somewhat the nature of a nerf that it effects people that are used to the power

[vital fractal]

Yes, but let’s say flechettes are now the standard shotgun pattern and will ohk up to half what a typical buckshot does now (like you say, make HC range normal for full shotguns- which would make HCs fucking useless beyond what they are currently with buckshot) shotguns would be absolute garbage

They would be worse rifles

I mean flechette gets memed on already for being the ammo that turns shotguns into a worse rifle

I don’t see how turning shotguns into faux rifles and, in turn ruining HCs more, will make the game more enjoyable :/

[brisk timber]

They would still retain OHK ability and are still no joke the same way a sawn off handcannon is no joke if you fight inside a compound

[brisk timber]

Flechette is memed because it 100% looses its OHK ability as far as i know (besides Headshotting ofc)

No offense but it seems like you deliberatly let some of the advantages fall under the table or ignore parts that are important

Regarding HC - yea this would be a bit problematic case tho but also not.
We could keep the HC's OHK range and make them both the same.
A big shotgun would still retain its now massively boosted and improved ranged damage.

So a 2slot shotgun would still be viable for close range OHK but only that.

[subtle lichen]

Nah I gotta agree with the guy from earlier. Sounds like you died to a shotty and are bitter about it.

[vital fractal]

Have you tried using buckshot on a Caldwell HC? It is a joke inside compounds

Also, deliberately I am not because again- I know what a HC range is like and it’s pathetic and unreliable, so to make a full size shotgun act as a HC would be so detrimental to shotguns it would literally be a few tiers above the flash nerf we just had (which I will say, I’m ok with the flash nerf)

And then to make the OHK range the same as HCs and the only change to HCs is they don’t even get a revision is worse-

Again, it’s making a shotgun a worse rifle- how is that useful at all? It just ruins shotguns without helping the overall gameplay at all

[subtle lichen]

The OHK range on shotguns is already pretty short, nerfing it even harder would make it basically pointless to take one over literally any other gun.

[wary whale]

the entire MMR system is borked, its so easy to abuse its a joke

[vital fractal]

Hell an added effect to your change is that flechettes would become useless, since their niche will be taken from them… that’s something I just thought about @brisk timber

The only benefit would be to HCs w flechette

[brisk timber]

Sounds like you jumping to conclusions here

I've died to plenty different guns in all my playtime and am not particularly salty over any special weapon
just basics thoughts about how to improve and open up the game in my opinion

because one thing im particularly a bit bored by is the stalemates that sometimes happen because neither rifle or shotgun wanna go into each others territory (besides that active play often is disadvantegous because you emit sound reactive players play off of)

#feedback-discussion message
And like you see here i also campaign for nerfing long ammo damage

But i think at this point we can just agree to disagree
i got my point across already so yeah

[late quartz]

I think the issue here is that nobody is playing to their advantages strongly enough here.

I can totally buy what you're saying, the problem is as players become more skilled your own ability to do funky shit is diminished; players will punish you for making smaller misplays which pushes all parties to be more conservative in their decisions.

I don't really disagree with this fundamentally, that you can still see success as a shotgunner if you play aggressive. I love playing aggro shotgun and prefer to play an active playstyle over a passive one. The problem here is that it takes much more skill and puts you at much greater risk to play this way.
Systemically, your most advantageous choice is to stay inside the boss lair and force opposing players to sacrifice their own advantageous position, vice versa for the players outside.

When I made the assertion that there are no good tools for aggressive play, what I meant was that when the opposing team decides to foresake fun or interesting gameplay in favor of maximizing their chances of winning, you and your team have very little option other than to meet them on their wavelength. Against a team who wants to "play their strengths" you either have to meet their pace and play passive yourself, or accept a massively disadvantageous fight (which most players don't want to do).

As a shotgunner in the boss lair, if you choose to push out you are making a "bad decision" from the perspective of maximizing your advantage. If you chose to stay indoors the opposing teams would have very little in the way of tools to punish you for it. This is where "not having good aggressive tools" comes into play.

[little jackal]

that is why the lair, or the bounty when stationary, or the bounty on the floor, should affect players around in a negative enough way to make them move

too scared to play the game, fine, stay away from the bounty

[late quartz]

I mean yeah I generally agree

This discussion often boils down to "shotguns vs scopes"

And "both sides" of this weird false dichotomy will say "well my side has every right to sit still, it's on the other guy to move"

Fundamentally, the bounty create unique, easily identifiable game states. Players with the bounty have a host of unique mechanics, they're visible on the map, they have DSB, they can redskull revive.

It's sort of obvious from a game design perspective that players who have the bounty are the ones that should have some sort of systemic pressure applied to them to prevent stalemates. "I got here first so you have to come take it" doesn't really make sense, it's not a sustainable dynamic.
He who chooses to take the bounty must accept the risk of having a target on their back. The Bounty is meant to be a risky tradeoff, not an invitation to create a perfect killhouse lair.

This is why serpent is in the game: you can't just sit on the bounty token without taking the risks that come with it, it's a commitment. Leaving it on the floor means other players can serpent it away without entering your killbox

Taking the bounty and then just going AFK in your concertina lair needs more risk associated with it.
I say this all from the perspective of a close range/shotgun player, and as somebody who thinks scopes shouldn't even be in the game. Personally I benefit from forcing players to push into boss lair more than I do from forcing bounty carrier outside.

[stark fulcrum]

Corners yeah thats dodgy. Single wood piece is fair.

The thing i find annoying is when you play shotgun and guys outside with long ammo bitch about you staying inside lol. I play all guns btw. Its just dumb, like sure let me take my short range gun and rush you outside with your mosin.

Despite what some say its 100 percent the attackers job to push and take out defenders, which is why they're called defenders. Not thier job to rush out and die in a hail of gunfire.

When I attack a compound I expect traps and close range weapons to be out. They're defending lol.

Play to your loadouts advantage

[brisk timber]

Tbh what a weird take to artificially force people down a route and deny boss lair area (especially nerfing shotgunners) instead of capping the power curve of the weapon arsenal on both ends - far distant and close combat guns - so that you encourage more active engagements.

[stark fulcrum]

If I run a rifle I'm watching cracks windows etc waiting for my chance. Always get one

[little jackal]

My strong belief is that people are sitting inside not because of their weapons not potent enough. They've been sitting inside since the beginning of times with all sorts of weapons. Shotguns, rifles, avtomats.

[brisk timber]

Well first and foremost ones job is to survive and at best get out with a bounty - in any way. Nobody has inherent job to push or defend anything. The time at some point presses action anyway.

So anyone complaining that the game isnt played how they wish shows a bit entitlement.

Bit it rifle complaining about shotgun camping or vise versa

[brisk timber]

Sure but just imagine you dark sight and see 3 teams around the lair waiting in every corner and suddently your team gets forced out of the lair

That cant be no solution aswell

While the match time basically is that already to some degree

[little jackal]

Right, it should not instakill you of course, I just sketched the general direction. Pyrrhic explained the whole thing fancier than I ever could

[stark fulcrum]

Yep, exactly. People telling others how to play is another level of stupid.

[late quartz]

yeah idk the idea that you should be able to "play however you want" is sort of insane LOL

The bounty is the game's objective, and taking it is a risk. It's not about nerfing specific types of weapons, it's about making sure the central objective of the gamemode encourages good gameplay

"Lets rebalance the entire game's arsenal" is a much wilder suggestion than "lets make some gamemode changes to discourage unhealthy gameplay around the objective"

Shotguns are not unbalanced outside of situations that FORCE other players into their effective range. The issue is that the game gives players low effort low skill ways to create those situations

Engineering a fight that plays to your advantages and creates a big barrier for other players should be skillful and dynamic

Nobody has inherent job to push or defend anything.
That's true currently, and that's why the game slows to a fucking crawl when players wanna min/max their positional advantages.
The suggestion is that the game SHOULD encourage players to make active choices and take risks. Not shotgunners, not snipers, anybody who chooses to take the bounty.

The bounty is not meant to be free, it's meant to be a risk, and right now there isn't a lot of risk to taking the bounty and hunkering down.

Looking at this as a "shotguns vs snipers" situation is goofy

This is about bounty carrier having too much control over the pacing of the match

Don't wanna feel pressured into taking some risks? Don't take the bounty lol. Wait until later in the match to try to grab it. If you pick it up you are consenting to both the benefits and the drawbacks of having it.

[stark fulcrum]

So then play how someone else feels you should play isn't insane? I agree with much of what you said here, but most definitely not that first part lol.

I do like making adjustments to game modes aka timer lowered when bounty is picked up or something.

Just not hey lets nerf x weapon because x

[late quartz]

So then play how someone else feels you should play isn't insane?
Of course. You have to realize this is just... the entire job of being a game designer

[stark fulcrum]

Shotguns are close range kings and long ammo is long and even mid range kings

As it should be

[late quartz]

When you make a game your job is to decide how the game should be played and make subjective value judgements about what would make the experience the best it can be.

[stark fulcrum]

But I'm with you on the camping for 30 minutes dilemma

[late quartz]

"I want everybody to play however they want" just doesn't make any sense from a design perspective. There are obviously ways to play the game that are good and ways to play that are less good or harmful

[stark fulcrum]

Its not a weapon or person's fault though

[late quartz]

When the devs add red clues, they're making a subjective value judgement; players should not be at an advantage by camping clues

[stark fulcrum]

Thats game design purely

Better incentive to push or exit a compound for one

[late quartz]

I absolutely agree with you. No individual person can be blamed for this problem because it's a systemic one.
The game rewards players for playing in a way that makes the game less enjoyable, and players want to win more than they want to have fun

That's why the suggestion is a systemic change; make the mechanics and systems encourage a healthy type of gameplay

[stark fulcrum]

Yeah, its just how and if they'll do that.

Those are big changes, maybe next year after engine update

[late quartz]

Making changes is easy, making GOOD changes is extremely fucking hard

I agree that the solution to the problem isn't obvious or clear cut, but the type of solution does feel quite obvious

[stark fulcrum]

Yeah paths are there

[late quartz]

It makes more sense from a design standpoint to create unique pressures and incentives for the bounty carrier. They get to choose to take the bounty, they have to make a tactical decision about the risks and benefits.

[stark fulcrum]

Just not the so vocal nerf shotguns, make scopes glint in sun etc lol

[late quartz]

For sure

Even if you completely removed shotguns from the game

People are just gonna use fanning and levering lol

Pushing into a building where a player is holding an angle is always going to be risky in Hunt. Players move very slowly in hunt and jump peeking is a relatively weak aggression option. You can't really manipulate your hitbox or use peekers advantage. The game just rewards passive play by default in the vast majority of situations

[brisk timber]

Oh ofc its wilder in the sense that its definitely more work and a bigger change of the core mechanics.
But its like... you can sweep dirt under the rug and call it a day or you can just clean the room properly.
Not saying that this is the proper way but i would refrain from judging a solution to a problem purely by its scale or workload.

So back in the day (wasnt there myselfe but i heard) that bounty completely came without the DarkSight boost.
People were afraid to pick it up because beside the target on your back you didnt gain any advantage.
Now imagine what would happen if you get slowly forced out of lair...

People probably wouldnt pick up bounty or do the boss at all
Everyone would hunker down around the lair and we have exactly the stalemate we wanted to avoid

So we created the problem we wanted a solution for in the first place

Also heavily putting shotguns on the short end - what you all so wholeheartedly refused.

With a mechanic that pushes bounty team out of lair you know how i would look with my mosin?

https://tenor.com/view/rub-hands-together-black-guy-gif-5110440

i somewhat think maybe QM with 2x3slot weapons wasnt that bad of an idea cause everyone could just carry a shotgun AND a rifle

[late quartz]

i would refrain from judging a solution to a problem purely by its scale or workload.
I agree that something being a lot of work isn't a good reason not to do it, but the issue is that this approach suggests the balance of the entire game's arsenal is problematic, which I totally disagree with. I think for the most part hunt's weapon balance is pretty good, and upending it to fix lair camping seems to be putting the cart before the horse.

People were afraid to pick it up because beside the target on your back you didnt gain any advantage.
Now imagine what would happen if you get slowly forced out of lair...
Everyone would hunker down around the lair and we have exactly the stalemate we wanted to avoid

I disagree that this speculation would hold true. Bounty on the floor means players can use serpent to dislodge it from boss lair, those players would then be likely to move because typically buildings surrounding boss lairs are smaller harder to defend and weaker to pushes and explosives.
Further, sitting in boss compound but not killing boss creates the same dynamic. Players who approach the compound will get warning from boss whispers, and since the "camping" party will be further from the center of the compound any approaching team will have more opportunity for flanks and rotations.

If you choose not to kill the boss other players can rotate around you to do it instead. This creates an opportunity for a fight.
If you choose to kill the boss and leave bounty on the floor it's vulnerable to serpent.
If you choose to kill the boss but don't want to take the risk of picking up bounty, you can leave the boss lair and wait for another team to take on that risk before reengaging (something I already find myself doing fairly frequently if I find boss lair early)

[late quartz]

I don't think this would create a negative dynamic for shotguns. I think it would simply increase the skill and reactivity required to wield them effectively.

Quartermaster shotgun builds are incredibly powerful, and don't really lack the capability to fight at mid range, it's simply more powerful right now to play passive because it's such a low risk high reward playstyle

[brisk timber]

hm i dont know if im too pessimistic or you too optimistic
those scenarios would probably hold more true on the both ends of player skill spectrum
the noobs not caring for the downside and the pros playing around the downsides
i think a big chunk of players tho would just not kill the boss because it gets stolen and run off with or you put yourselfe in massive disadvantage inside the lair

[brisk timber]

Yea but this is not the shotguns doin but that the sidearms have gotten rather potent over the last years

But than the question arises why i should pick a really expensive loadout like Shotgun + UppercutP when i get forced out lair?

Probably better of taking a Martini + Handcannon at this point

I stand by this point
Its not healthy if the guns are so strong in their niches that you just deny one gun category their playground

But limit the powercurve on both ends

[late quartz]

All guns exist in a loadout. If you pick really dogshit loadouts that force you into one niche frankly that's sort of on you

Why would you take a 3 slot shotty with uppercut? Because it's insanely strong at all ranges

Is it THE BEST LOADOUT at all ranges? No. Nothing is the best at everything all the time

[brisk timber]

But why should i pick this if the game forces me to play open ground majority of the match?

I could probably fare better with a rifle loadout for less money

if i have to play 90% of match outside anyway

[late quartz]

i think a big chunk of players tho would just not kill the boss because it gets stolen and run off with or you put yourselfe in massive disadvantage inside the lair
The chances of an entire lobby sitting in a circle outside boss lair doing nothing for the whole match seems slim. I don't think is would realistically happen. Somebody is going to get to lair first, and even if they choose not to kill the boss, the chance that every following team will also just sit outside passively in a circle seems to be very slim

[late quartz]

I mean if you feel that shotguns are only good if you can sit in one spot and camp I would just say your experience with them is completely different from mine lol

Shotguns are great for aggression, they're great for pushing, they're great even if you're fighting in the woods

You're not forced to play 70 meter angles for most of hte match just because you can't AFK in boss lair

That's definitely a matter of not being skilled or knowledgeable enough to create situations that favor your loadout.

[brisk timber]

No but i think if youre in the open map and have all the means to rotate and make meters thats a completely different playground then fighting inside a confined space
I never even said camp in one spot - you put that words in my mouth

[late quartz]

Well that's what's being changed

You can't sit in boss lair forever

I'm not saying you can never be in a building or in a compound lol

The only change is that if you have bounty you can't be in one spot forever

Every other situation where you get to play a close range fight will remain the same

[brisk timber]

Welp id be open to test it
but i bet my prediction would hold true

[late quartz]

yeah idk. the idea that the only reason shotguns are good is because you can sit in boss lair forever with no pressure to move besides the timer feels

Not like Hunt Showdown

[brisk timber]

And hell for all means
Even if we do the "force people out of lair"
i think my idea to change shotguns and long ammo would make even more sense 😄

[late quartz]

Sure, you think the game is fundamentally poorly balanced

That's fine I guess

[brisk timber]

i wouldnt say poorly

but it could be optimized yea

[late quartz]

Well, you think almost half the game's weapons need to be completely overhauled

So

Again there's nothing wrong with feeling that way

[brisk timber]

Its not like a gunsmith has to be called and handily change gun parts

its numbers at the end of the day

[late quartz]

I don't think scopes should be in the game at all

I'll say that outright

[brisk timber]

hehe well that we can agree on 😄

or atleast have much more downsides

[late quartz]

But I know that that's not something that can really get any traction, it's not realistic

[brisk timber]

like slower walking and scope glint idk

[late quartz]

I think scopes have a paradoxical, toxic quirk to them

What happened when they nerfed scoped move speed? Scope players camp more

[brisk timber]

they encourage risk free manhunt playstyle which is fundamental toxic to the game

[brisk timber]

They already do tho, atleast you could keep up with their rotations
or ...maybe increase the scope in time so less quick scoping

idk speaking out of my arse here

[late quartz]

Generally when a tool is too good in a game the most straightforward way to balance it is to make it more niche.

The more generalized a tool is, the more situations it performs well in, the more dominant it will be.

The problem with scopes is that the less generalized they become, the more you force those players to rely on their narrow set of advantages.

If you make quickscoping worse you just make it so scope players never want to stop playing at long range

[brisk timber]

well

[late quartz]

Scopes were LESS problematic when you moved at normal speed when scoped in because people would be willing to play deadeye and marksman scopes in close~mid range compound fights

[brisk timber]

delete spitzer

would be a good start

[late quartz]

Now that you just get instantly headshot if you scope in, deadeye scopes are far far less popular

Because they don't allow you to leverage a powerful advantage in their effective range

I don't think scopes can be balanced, I think they will always be unhealthy, and I think any nerfs will only serve to exacerbate the playstyles that make them problematic.

The game is just better when people are in close~mid range duels. Sure that's a subjective take, but that's game design baby.

[brisk timber]

tbh i think this was a good change tho
quick scoping was too strong and deadeye had a very good case to use

now you literally have to really think about if you wanna trade in the quickness of your ads for the advantage of a scoped in view

Tbh i dont really mind if im getting domed by a sniper if i sit around doin nothing

Or when he leads a bullet from 300m - man this not easy

[late quartz]

Again I think it's like... kind of an obviously good change that paradoxically sucks

[brisk timber]

Spitzer tho made it a bit too easy

[late quartz]

Nerfing scopes by making them bad at fighting in close range makes sense

it just has the opposite result that we're looking for

it doesn't make them less common or less problematic, it makes them more likely to play the toxic campy playstyle

[brisk timber]

i dont know - sure the times you encounter a sniper at far ranges have gotten relatively more
but at the same time you probably also encounter less total snipers overall

[late quartz]

Nah definitely not

I encounter fewer deadeye scopes but far more marksman and sniper scopes

Not only because the meta has shifted but also because there are just more marksman and sniper scopes in the game now

I'd rather have a guy with a deadeye scope come into a compound and quickscope me than sit outside the compound with a sniper scope for 15 minutes

[obsidian narwhal]

@upbeat slate at first i was like "whut why are there three rings on that vett"
then i saw it was the archaic 1871 model

[late quartz]

I'd rather these players feel empowered to fight in close range than feel forced to play at long range, because I want more close range fights and fewer long range ones

[obsidian narwhal]

there IS an infantry vetterli that's the correct size

trust me i've seen the 1871 and it's not longer

just uglier

[brisk timber]

yea but they were just...both 😄
for a skilled player there was hardly a reason to not play a scoped weapon besides price
because he could just dominate every range

i know what you mean and we probably are both right

[late quartz]

Sniper scopes were still so much zoom that most players didn't wanna use them, they just inherently made close range fights harder because your sensitivity is probably very low, the FOV change too drastic

So players used more marksman and deadeye scopes because they allowed lots of flexibility at all ranges

While that meant there was less cost to playing a scope, it also meant they were more willing to take risks

And at the end of the day I don't care about scopes being strong or not, I care about the dynamics of the gameplay they encourage

If you get to take a lebel marksman for free but you still fight me in the compound I'm kinda just down for it.

All that said, I'm probably not against sniper glint being added and I think a fairly simple way to make sniping less safe would be making all sniper variant special ammo with a very limited ammo pool

That way you can't just run dual uppercuts or some trash to circumvent it

[severe shell]

I dont think the answer is in nerfing sniping so much as adding tools for counterplay like smoke bombs

[late quartz]

Well, as I said

I don't think snipers should be in the game at all LOL

So my answer is just remove them because they're horrifically unpleasant

Smoke bombs aren't in the game because they're universally insanely good. They're not just gonna nerf snipers they're gonna be dominant period

[severe shell]

in a game that has bees concertina wire explosives etc I dont see how smoke would be "insanely" good or dominant. balancing can always be fine tuned by size of the cloud and time active

you could also let chokes counter smoke

[radiant river]

Smoke + res would be insane

[late quartz]

Extract fights would be horrible, if a team has any lead on you and your only chance is to get a knock to deny extract and they smoke you out it's just a nightmare

[severe shell]

thats the idea, it would counter the long range headshot from the guy with a sniper rifle

[late quartz]

Like, again, smokes have been a suggestion from the start

They're sort of a universal shooter game grenade type

Gotta wonder why they aren't here, right?

[radiant river]

Yeah but they're good at every range

[severe shell]

yes, and thats not a bad thing

if someone is hiding in a smoke cloud throw dynomite, beez, choke, concertina, there are a son of options

hell if you had the bounty you could just scan them too

[late quartz]

Hiding in a smoke cloud isn't generally the issue, blocking LOS is just incredibly strong

it is an issue for extract fights, but like... you can already throw explosives

Often that's just not an option because of the range and environment

[severe shell]

yeah I think having a couple of smokes with the option of blocking line of sight for like 20 seconds a piece is a good tactical adition to the game

[late quartz]

I would defer back to this question.
Why do you think they're not already in the game? This isn't like a gotcha or an appeal to conservatism; just cause they're not here doesn't necessarily mean they shouldn't be, but I'm curious what you think the reason is

because I also have thought numerous times "A smoke bomb would be great right now"

But I also sort of go "well, it would be great, maybe too great... I kinda see why I can't use them"

[radiant river]

Also being able to res after dying to a sniper doesn't solve the issue

[severe shell]

I've asked that question alot to, but just because they havent yet doent mean they shouldnt. the last time a dev talked about smoke they said it was an engine problem not a balance problem but feel free to take that with a grain of salt

[severe shell]

iit would certainly help

[late quartz]

So you think it's purely a technical limitation and not a design choice?

[radiant river]

Say you manage to kill one of the snipers, then they smoke and res?

It goes both ways

[late quartz]

I find it... highly questionable that it's an engine problem considering we have giant opaque smoke plumes from firebombs lol

[severe shell]

and remember you only get 4 tools and 4 consumables, 2 of which is always meds and choke so bringing smoke would still have its oppurtunity cost

[late quartz]

Sure but literally everything has an opportunity cost

It's not really a great measure of balance

[severe shell]

I wondered the same thing too lol

you could make the smoke partially transparent at like less than 25 meters and completely opaque at a certain range if that would help

I just prefer balancing by adding things for counter play not taking things away by nerfing them to the point of uselessness

[late quartz]

eh I think nerfs are just as valid as buffs or additions. It really just depends

[brisk timber]

an idea i once had regarding smokes

#game-ideas message

i would love that ingame

[severe shell]

yes but it stops a sniper from instantly deciding a teamfight only to spend the next 5 minutes staring at the corpse while his teamate just hunkers down wondering what to do next

[late quartz]

Again I just think scopes specifically have zero positive impact on the game and at absolute best they would have no impact at all.

Smokes are their own issue that have a lot of positive and a lot of negative associated with them, but wouldn't solve the problems with snipers even if added

[radiant river]

It's purely defensive counterplay though, there's still no way to fight back. Just leads to more stalemates

[brisk timber]

The smoke column would be pretty thin to really just block of a fairly small sightline
so no big smoke cloud like in other games or like the choke has

[severe shell]

not a bad idea sl ong as chokes could choke the smoke

[late quartz]

Choking out a smoke means that area is an AOE hazard for like 2 minutes

[severe shell]

it still gives options, still gives a second chance. revive, backtrack, rotate.

[severe shell]

yes, and?

[late quartz]

You don't even really clear LOS, you now have a visual disturbance AND zoning CC that lasts, what, 6 times longer?

Kind of a dogshit counter LOL

[severe shell]

then your problem is with choke bombs not with smoke lol

[late quartz]

No my problem is that spending a choke to get rid of a smoke makes very little sense

because you're CCing yourself

Why do we not see people choking out hellfire bombs, or pre-buff firebombs?

because why would you ever do that LOL

Oh shit I can't walk or see clearly through this spot for 20 seocnds, better make it hard to see or move through for 2 minutes instead

[severe shell]

not necessarilly, and your complaint was that smoke was to powerful cause it blocks line of site. choking it would solve your problem

[late quartz]

Again it doesn't even really clear line of sight, you're replacing one visual CC with another visual CC that lasts way longer

It's a bad trade

[severe shell]

then i dont know why your saying smoke is OP when choke bombs already exist

[late quartz]

._.

These two things are in no way mutually exclusive or contradictory

Smokes can both be too good, and chokes can be a shitty counter at the same time

If you had said like, oh explosives clear smokes

That's one thing right

[severe shell]

so should we get rid of the distortion effect/coughing of chokes?

[severe shell]

that would be a neat way to balance it too

[radiant river]

Chokes shouldn't make you cough once you leave them

[late quartz]

No, I think the effect is probably okay as it is. It's a level of visual CC that is acceptable

But still not one you want to like... impose on yourself lol

[severe shell]

my point is add smoke to counter scopes, if you dont like smoke, make it so something counters that like explosives, chokes, etc

[late quartz]

Adding a thing and then adding a counter to that thing doesn't necessarily make the thing balanced

It may just be that the thing is more trouble than its worth, and creating a problem to solve isn't really a good play in the first place

I DO THINK smoke would have a lot of positive impact, but I also thing the negative impacts would be too detrimental to be worthwhile.

I think between chokes and firebombs the amount of visual CC we can create is probably enough

Mind you, it's very hard to see through a firebomb lol

You can create visual cover, I think people aren't doing it because the community hasn't really had their eyes opened to its potential power

[severe shell]

not really though, i kill people and get killed through chokes and fire all the time

[brisk timber]

Well dynamite would probably also make sense to clear a smoke

[severe shell]

I responded to the wrong comment there lol

[late quartz]

Yeah I think you SHOULD be killing people and getting killed through chokes and fire

It shouldn't be that safe to block LoS in hunt

The situations where it would be cool and tactical are there and I totally do vibe with the smoke idea in those situations

But in the situations where they're at their most powerful I think they would be very very detrimental

And "throw something at it" wouldn't adequately remedy the situation imo

[brisk timber]

To be fair a smoke could even be less valuable as a choke

it creates a LoS block

but if you dont choke in a smoke you could even push easier

somewhat of a false sense of safety

[severe shell]

yeah he's talking like line of sight blocking would kill the game or something, I dont understand why thats bad

[late quartz]

lol

I didn't say it would kill the game

it would just create unhealthy scenarios that probably outweigh the benefitial ones

The dolch isn't killing the game it's just silly and always makes the game worse when it's present

[brisk timber]

well a scenario i would see that would become problematic is people creating smoke screens at extraction

would be pretty hard landing any shot at all on them

[late quartz]

Extract chases are a huge one yeah

[severe shell]

it would actually make fights more dynamic instead of just who's holding the right angle at the perfect moment, you'd have the option to temporarily mix things up if you decide to bring the specific tool

[late quartz]

Yeah I agree

[radiant river]

I think the strength of smoke ressing would be annoying enough to offset that

[brisk timber]

Im on the fence about smokes aswell but i would try maybe for an event and see if its fun or not

[radiant river]

You can already use other grenades to get the same effect to a smaller extent

[severe shell]

like I think you got this idea in your head based on your complaints about snipers and shotguns that all fights need to be straight up skill based shootouts at a range you deem "most fun"

[late quartz]

Hunt isn't a serious competitive game

[brisk timber]

i feel like the dynamit smoke is so unreliable
sometimes i get no smoke at all or it lasts way too short
i dont know what the prerequistes are for a proper cloud

[late quartz]

It's built on wacky silly RNG mechanics and AI monsters

I would never try to make hunt a serious competitive game because that's just not what makes it special

[severe shell]

if your close enough to a someone downed in smoke, throw something into the smoke to stop the rez. easy peasy. if your far away the smoke is working as intended

[brisk timber]

true tho

[severe shell]

hunt is special to me cause it a permadeath game that rewards a high IQ plays with time to actually plan out what you want to do rather than bouncing off every wall like apex

[late quartz]

Hm well

I'm not sure that really conflicts with what I said

Just trying to clear up that i probably don't agree with your characterization of my vision for the game

[severe shell]

it doesnt but we still have slightly different ideas about the game and thats okay

[late quartz]

It's not about making everything some perfectly fair skill based duel

[severe shell]

exactly, and thats why smoke would be good cause its rewarding thinking over who's the best at clicking heads, or clicking heads from 200 m away

[late quartz]

there's really nothing unfair about smokes either, I'm not suggesting that they'd be unfair I'm suggesting that they wouldn't mesh well with the game's systems and dynamics in certain scenarios that would outweigh the other very obvious scenarious where they'd add depth and skill expression

[radiant river]

Smoking a body and ressing isn't thinking

[late quartz]

As I've said, I see the upsides

I'm just not sure the upsides are worth the downsides

[radiant river]

Hunt has such complex and large maps that I don't think it needs smokes to create unique situations like they do in a tacfps or other games

I rarely get two fights that go the same way

[severe shell]

smoking to rez becomes more obvious the farther away you are from the shooter, which is what counters the sniping playstyle. smoking in close range becomes more risky requiring more thought about gameplay

[late quartz]

^ Kinda this. The majority of the times you'd use a smoke aren't like big brain outplays, they're pretty obvious and basic situations where controlling line of sight plays a key role in hunt's pacing and flow

[radiant river]

Yes and although I hate snipers I don't think every kill that's past 50m should just be undone

[severe shell]

we wont agree on this but I can agree to disagree, in a game of chokes and fire and bees and barbed wire and when sniping is a problem it makes for a perfect fit to me

[late quartz]

I don't really see how any of those other consumables fit it

[blissful jackal]

Yes it is at high elo

[severe shell]

its still a kill you still get credit and they guy still loses a bar

[late quartz]

LOL alright bud

[severe shell]

then you might be playing the wrong game if you think all those consumables dont fit the game lol

[late quartz]

I don't see how they fit into your point about chokes lol

They're sort of unrelated

[severe shell]

they are all tactical weapons that change the environment or damage the enemy indirectly

[late quartz]

the game certainly has other consumables but beetles and barbed wire and chokes aren't smoke bombs and probably have some fundamentally different features that make their considerations different

[severe shell]

barbed wire is basically smoke that you cant walk through

I actually use barbed wire to block bullets during a rez already

[blissful jackal]

You don't think people are competitive at high elo? You don't think they are sweating?

[late quartz]

Yeah concertina bombs are 100% going to get nerfed. Flashes being nerfed into the floor has massively increased their popularity, and their massive glairing balancing issues are raising to the forefront of the gmae

Concertina bombs are suuuper unbalanced

Lotta fu ntho

[severe shell]

flash bangs needed a nerf because there was no counterplay you just flashed then pushed it was easy, so I agree

barbed wire does not need a nerf tho

[blissful jackal]

I don't think concertina is op.

We wanna nerf concertina just remove concertina and poison traps ty 😁

[radiant river]

They could definitely do something about blocking off every entrance with concertina bombs, since that's basically all they're used for

[late quartz]

That's not what makes a game competitive. People take everything seriously at the highest levels of commitment and dedication.

Competitive games are characterized by an emphasis on fairness, even playing fields, and a lessening of the impact of factors like randomness or chance. Hunt from the ground up is built around an unfair gamemode where players are given a random hand of unearnedadvantages and disadvantages.
Does that mean skill plays no part? Of course not, but you don't see CSGO having random physics based props like CSS did. One is a "serious competitive game" and one very obviously is not.

[blissful jackal]

What are said unfair advantages

[radiant river]

Traits, getting mauled by zombies

[severe shell]

you'd be suprized. I run concertina traps and ive used them for all sorts of things. I'll avoid using them on doorways cause most players arent stupid and they'll pay attention to the doors when fighting in a compound

[blissful jackal]

Css was still competitive bro what are you on lmao

[late quartz]

You get to pick your loadout based on out-of-match metagame mechanics, you spawn in a random spot a random distance away from the game objective, sometimes literally on top of it.

AI, random consumables found in the world, random resupplies from looting

[severe shell]

traps arent op cause counterplay is easy, just dont walk into them

[radiant river]

Battle royals share a lot of these factors and those are competitive

[blissful jackal]

That doesn't make it less competitive

Apex you don't know where circle is

[late quartz]

I fundamentally do not believe battle royale is a serious competitive genre

[blissful jackal]

You don't know what loot you will get

[late quartz]

Yeah that's why it's not a serious game LOL

And apex is waaaaaay more serious than Hunt still

[blissful jackal]

Except people play it at extremely high levels the same as hunt

[radiant river]

I mean, they are balanced competitively and have esports scenes

[late quartz]

Okay. I agree. "People play it seriously" doesn't make it a "serious competitive game"

[blissful jackal]

So your reason it's not competitive is that it's not csgo

[severe shell]

I used to play apex before but dont anymore cause its too sweaty to many streamers and pro gamers just shitting on you every match. many people make a living playing apex alone

[late quartz]

My reason it's not competitive is because it's not built to be competitive. The devs do not balance the game to be perfectly fair so that the best player will win any given match with as few external factors as possible.

Many people make a living playing Minecraft that doesn't make it a competitive game ._.

Even if you're playing a funny PvP mode in minecraft that people take super seriously

"People take it seriously" isn't the brightline

[blissful jackal]

Id argue the playing field is relatively even. You can almost always re roll hunters to have necro. Which is the gold standard perk

[severe shell]

I dont know how your defining competitive but apex is as competitive as it gets

[radiant river]

Also at a high level everyone has infinite money

[blissful jackal]

Minecraft is advertised as a building sandbox lol not a pvpve game

[late quartz]

Who cares how it's advertised

Whether or not people take it seriously and play it competitively is totally independent

[blissful jackal]

Me? Because it pertains to your comparison?

[severe shell]

you basically cant afford to be a new or bad player in apex you will get steamrolled every time by guys working on their 10.0 kdr

[craggy pike]

I just want concertina to actually get damaged consistently.

It feels like half the time I hit it with my throwing axe it doesn't break, and other times I break a piece every hit.

[blissful jackal]

Seems hunt has the same problem

People claim they get killed by hacker and post clips of them getting dunked on every single day

[late quartz]

PvP =/= serious competitive game

Basically that simple

[blissful jackal]

I think your argument works with Minecraft for that

Because Minecraft has more than just pvo

Pvp

Fighting the AI is just a means of pvp in hunt

[severe shell]

kind of but at least you have a half way decent mmr system and things like ive already mentioned such as dynomite, bees, traps, barbed wire - things that reward caution over sweat

[radiant river]

I think it's hard to agree if its competitive because the definition is subjective

[late quartz]

Absolutely. That's the issue, it affects match outcomes through unearned advantages and disadvantages

Eliminating influences other than player skill is what I believe makes the difference between a random PvP game and a competitive PvP game

[severe shell]

people sure do take apex seriously though, and they compete on apex too so it is "serious and competitive"

[late quartz]

We're just using the words differently, this is purely semantics

[blissful jackal]

Such advantages and disadvantages are in every game

[late quartz]

Maybe, but some games aim to eliminate them as much as possible

Hunt doesn't

Hunt LIKES that it's not fair

And I like that hunt isn't fair

[radiant river]

I don't agree with that

[late quartz]

random bullshit adds to what makes Hunt special

[blissful jackal]

Some games do them on purpose like csgo, t side has ak that one taps and ct's have the advantages of being defensive

[radiant river]

It's not intentionally unfair for the sake of it

It's just unfair as a result of certain systems being built in certain ways, for certain reasons

[late quartz]

Asymmetrical games aren't necessarily unfair, these games have side swapping mechanics for a reason.

[humble quest]

They were intentionally built in certain ways for certain reasons, that makes it unfair intentionally

[radiant river]

Like zombies serve as soundtraps and also add to the atmosphere, and have random spawns so things aren't so repetitive

[late quartz]

Aysmmetrical games are harder to balance but fundamentally offer a greater level of consistancy than Hunt does

[blissful jackal]

I think there's nothing I could say to change your mind. People die in apex from unfair shit all the time and it's insanely competitive

[radiant river]

Zombies aren't designed to make gunfight outcomes more random

[severe shell]

I agree! so why do we want to nerf snipers, shotguns, traps/barbed wire, and dont want smoke because how dare they block line of site for like 20 seconds?

[late quartz]

Because some types of gameplay are more engaging than others

And hunt as a PvP game still relies on some level of balance to be fun

[blissful jackal]

Snipers are so busted

They are insanely strong

[severe shell]

engaging according to you I guess. smoke would make the game more engaging to me cause it increases options the players have

[late quartz]

Idk, I love apex, I have thousands of hours in Apex, I think it is a fundamentally unbalanced game that actively cares more about novelty than it does about consistency and balance

[blissful jackal]

Hence why I suggested they add better sound mechanics when ur getting shot at

[radiant river]

They should allow you to carry unlimited consumables

To give you more options

[late quartz]

All design decisions are inherently subjective. Obviously yes, my opinions are reflective of my subjective viewpoint.

Any changes that actually make it into the game will be based on the subjective viewpoints of the developers. This is how game design works.

[late quartz]

TRUE

[severe shell]

Lmao i started playing hunt cause i started sucking in apex and I wanted a slower more tactical experience than getting tbagged by a pathfinder and octane every match lol

[radiant river]

I think the only reason hunt being competitive or not matters is in the context of certain balance changes

[late quartz]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

idgaf how seriously people take the game in 6 star

What matters is what the design philosophy and core values of the developers are

Spoiler alert: It's not making the game perfectly fucking fair

[radiant river]

They make it pretty fair though

[blissful jackal]

Idk they sure try to balance the guns besides snipers

[radiant river]

Or at least it seems like they want to, they're just very slow

[late quartz]

When I say "serious competitive game" I mean the most fundamental balancing philosophy is that players can compete on as even a playing field as possible so that people will care about who wins"

Apex legends and Fortnite do not care about their Esports leagues above their casual audience. They make wild fucking balancing changes season over season so that people will have funny new shit to mess with even if it fucks with esports

[severe shell]

more options about what kinds of tools to bring are not equivalent to that, dont be so obtuse lol. we could let every player bring every gun at once into the match too no need to make a straw man out of this discussion

[radiant river]

So your argument is the way smokes shape the map is the kind of new options you want to add?

[severe shell]

yes, in the context that is gives the player the option to use a tool slot to be able to change the visibility of a single line of sight for like 20 seconds. that way snipers can still snipe but if your sick of getting domed by long amo you could use that as a means of mitigation

[slate jetty]

sounds cool, but you can double stack chokes and do the same thing

the bullet whiz idea should already be in the game tbh

[late quartz]

MOST situations where a sniper is being problematic can't be solved by a temporary LOS block

[slate jetty]

yup

[severe shell]

meh if your hald way decent with scopes you can shoot through choke. i wouldnt recomend using choke as cover

[radiant river]

And even if it can you're still just left with the only option being run away

[late quartz]

Again I think the most common situations where smokes are useful would be revives, extracts, bounty grabs, loots, etc.

Not really big brain tactical shit

Very basic obvious situations where subverting LOS would actually be more negative for the pace of the game

[severe shell]

being able to run away is better than just loosing and going back to main menu without hunter

[slate jetty]

welp a lot of snipers are already de-render freaks who play on stretched res potato graphics

so smokes arent gonna help

[blissful jackal]

I don't think smoke would fix the sniper issue

[blissful jackal]

Awesome and rewarding gameplay

Running away because you literally can't kill them

[late quartz]

Most of the time the problem wtih a sniper isn't that you're pinned down in one specific location and having a single line of sight blocked would fix it

[blissful jackal]

^

[slate jetty]

lol fair and balanced spitzer should totally be in the game!

[late quartz]

"Let me move to that next piece of cover then I'm free"

Pretty rare

[radiant river]

Yes but it's worse than being able to fight back properly

[severe shell]

thats a good point, hopefully they could be done in such a way that the graphics for smoke would be mandatory, that was always been a hhuge problem for pc games though

[severe shell]

fight back properly? what do you mean? how would smoke make it so its harder to fight back against sniper?

[slate jetty]

also look at CSGO, people abuse one ways a lot

[late quartz]

A sniper in a risky spot who gets picked off is easier to revive by a teammate

[radiant river]

I mean relative to other changes they could make

[late quartz]

Especially via necro

[radiant river]

Such as scope glint, or snipers not existing at all (which will never happen)

[late quartz]

What do you do to counter a necro smoke revive at range? Just spam bullets forever?

[radiant river]

Yep, also snipers benefit just as much from smokes

[slate jetty]

i can just see the people who can make smoke one ways, or headglitch inside them etc

dark smoke and headsman sniper

method

[severe shell]

thats my point, you nerf snipers you get it to a point where they just shouldnt be bringing scoped weapons at all. if we use this line of thinking then we should just have 1 gun in the game that shoots exactly the same for everyone and nothing else at all. then that would be perfectly balanced

[radiant river]

No

[severe shell]

and to me adding scope glint would make snipers unusable and i dont even use scopes that much

[late quartz]

That assumes that the goal is a perfectly balanced hunt showdown

Most guns are not problematic

[radiant river]

If someone has a sniper and is sitting ~200m away you literally can't even see them with irons 90% if the time

[slate jetty]

idk bout scope glint ive never liked it, maybe a really bright muzzle flash

[radiant river]

There's no interaction on your end

You just die, run, or bring a scope

There's lot of variety within every other gun

[slate jetty]

smh.. when are they gonna add a suppressed mosin sniper

[rotund obsidian]

I find that the issue is less about visibility and more about steady aim and the ridiculous dropoff on long/spitzer

[radiant river]

Even old avtomat, you can just outaim them and win the fight

[severe shell]

correct, much like real life. in real life we use smokes to help with that too. there is lots of cover in hunt if you can just make it to a treeline you can disapear yourself

[rotund obsidian]

I run 1080p and i can see snipers just fine but it's gonna take a full second for my bullets to reach them and then not even kill on a headshot lmao

[radiant river]

So the solution is extract if they bring snipers?

[slate jetty]

lol

[radiant river]

You realize the issue there right?

Something is so op you can't even fight it

[slate jetty]

issue is theres literally 0 counterplay to snipers

[severe shell]

no, fade then rotate, or go after other boss

[slate jetty]

maybe make the flare gun useful and have it blind scopes if they scope in for too long or something idk

some sort of counterplay

at LEAST

[severe shell]

not a bad idea actually

[radiant river]

You still have a way easier time hitting long range shots with sniper, and getting long range third party kills is also strong. They're just not also practically invisible to normal weapons

[severe shell]

my solution was smoke but i think i like that better maybe

[late quartz]

The question is, even if you add counterplay, is that counterplay engaging and interesting gameplay?

There's an opportunity cost to having one type of gameplay, it means there isn't another type of gameplay happening. This is why people hate early extractors, because it means you don't get to have as much PvP.

Evne if you add smokes and let people get away from snipers... which I'm not sure would happen and I'm not sure is even the issue, would that gameplay be better than a version of Hunt Showdown where those snipers are playing in mid range with a non-scoped weapon?

I don't think variety is always good, some variety is good, some variety is bad

[severe shell]

snipers are strong. so do we remove snipers or give tools for counterplay?

[late quartz]

Scopes seem to be bad variety because they only promote bad gamplay. Yes this is subjective but that's game design

[slate jetty]

tools for counterplay imo

[rotund obsidian]

remove snipers fr 😈

[late quartz]

frfr

[severe shell]

my point exactly!

[radiant river]

Although the new matchmaking changes make it so I run into snipers less, I still usually like to have at least one scope in a trio if I care about winning

Feels basically mandatory

[slate jetty]

yeah

[radiant river]

Which is a sign something is too strong

[late quartz]

Can I get uhhhhh derringer sniper

[severe shell]

thats the problem im having with you guys rn lol

what if you could see scope glare while looking through the spyglass or something? just brainstorming

[radiant river]

Problem is what makes snipers inherently op is built directly into them. The size of the hunt showdown map just guarantees they can be abused to get kills from uncounterable distances

[slate jetty]

then just run away and extract or camp bodies and furthermore encouraged by fucking spitzer

if it took more skill it'd be better

[rotund obsidian]

Buffing compact headshot distance was a step in the right direction but wasn't enough imo. I think one of the issues with the long-ranged sniper who just waits for a headshot is steady aim. why do they get to have zero sway >:(

[radiant river]

Right now snipers can't be seen or be shot back at by non scoped weapon users. Scope glare would still make it hard to shoot back at a sniper but at least allow you to see them and attempt to shoot back.

[late quartz]

Make all scoped variants special ammo, reduce ammo pool. Make it a niche strategy not your whole playstyle :)

Sure you get to play range, but you can't rely entirely on it

[radiant river]

True steady aim should only make sway less while moving

[late quartz]

At some point your advantage dries up and you have to play the game

[severe shell]

if aiming down sites made it obvious where I am I'd never touch a sniper scope ever again

[slate jetty]

does steady aim actually just remove sway? thats nuts

[rotund obsidian]

it's drastically reduced to the point of not really mattering

[slate jetty]

damn

should be like limited to max marksman

[radiant river]

There's still lots of benefits of running them.

[slate jetty]

thats why i dont snipe in any game with the glint mechanic

its so dumb

[severe shell]

I disagree, broadcasting your position is way to big of a downside in hunt

[rotund obsidian]

If a gun's strength is in taking fights that depend on you not being seen at all, I think it shouldn't be strong

[slate jetty]

like i said they shouldve kept HV ammo to the single shot guns and not the mosin etc

[late quartz]

If you're at extreme range you're still much harder to hit even if people know where you are.

if you're in close or mid range people can identify you based on sound, at sniping range you don't give any other telegraphs

[severe shell]

maybe only do the scope glare if you are aiming directly at the person with crosshair near to target, then maybe that would be ok

[slate jetty]

yeah i like that better

but not everyone in the fucking map lol

[severe shell]

half the kills in hunt are about killing someone before they know where you are. you'd completely take that away from a certain weapon

[late quartz]

A certain weapon that has... a ton of other advantages

And would still rely on people looking in your direction

[rotund obsidian]

We're playing very different games, I think dying unaware or getting kills on unaware players is pretty infrequent as someone who runs a lot of compact ammo.

[late quartz]

If a sniper is in front of you sniping at you I don't think it's unreasonable to know that before they take their first shot, since it will be much harder for you to shoot them and punish the mfor it

[slate jetty]

from the gameplay i just dont think snipers even belong in the game

[radiant river]

Sure, like if they're within your scope

[late quartz]

TRUUUUUE

[slate jetty]

it would be so much more interesting if there was no snipers

[late quartz]

Baaaaaased

There's no way to add counterplay to snipers that would be more interesting than not having snipers at all

[slate jetty]

well the combat is about going towards and objective and fighting over it, whats the point of adding something that goes against that

[radiant river]

Is deadeye scope balanced? Or no?

[late quartz]

Doing chores to circumnavigate them is still worse than having a real fight

[slate jetty]

shotguns belong so well

[radiant river]

I like deadeye but I'm biased

[late quartz]

I think deadeyes were fairly balanced before the scope nerfs

[slate jetty]

deadeye should be like max zoom

id be fine with that

[rotund obsidian]

I still just want snipers to not be able to shoot me from so far that i can't even headshot them. Make getting headshotted while you have a scope always lethal 😈

[late quartz]

I think they're too weak now generally, but I think if they undid the scope movement speed nerf deadeyes would be perfect as the highest zoom level in the game

[radiant river]

When and what did they nerf, I took a long break from the game

[late quartz]

You move very slowly while scoped in

[rotund obsidian]

Movespeed

[late quartz]

So you can't duel in close~mid range

[radiant river]

Ohh

[slate jetty]

and it makes sense since its the 18th century i think? idk but they really didnt have scopes that powerful

[rotund obsidian]

Deadeyes receive the same movespeed penalty while aiming that all scopes do, which is 50% iirc

[radiant river]

I just jump shot always at close range

[late quartz]

I never minded deadeyes because they would still play in a range where I could always comfortably contest them

[slate jetty]

exactly

[late quartz]

Even most lebel marksmen mains were gonna be in a compound

[radiant river]

Yeah deadeye past like 80m is hard

[late quartz]

But now with the movespeed nerf nobody wants to risk getting in close range

If you have a marksman scope or higher you're playing in a bush in narnia

[radiant river]

True, aperture sight meta

[late quartz]

Lebel apeture unironically goated

Can't believe it sees so little use

[slate jetty]

a lot of people just dont like the lebel

[rotund obsidian]

i think aperture is the same zoom as the marksman, right?

[late quartz]

yep

[radiant river]

If you're using lebel you might as well spend the 5 hunt dollars for it

[broken musk]

@upbeat slate The moonless nights idea, is something i would love to see

Please Crytek, let us have true nights as a wildcard contract

[obsidian narwhal]

i don't think the aperture zooms that much

i think it's about the same as a deadeye scope

[late quartz]

It's identical to marksman

[severe shell]

maybe? hunt has stealth built into it though. if someone knows where you are peaking usually gets you killed. like more than half my kills are to unaware enemies, either completely by suprize or I get a new angle on them they werent expecting.

[severe shell]

at lose range scope is at disadvantage to irons and deadeye. at long range you have to give away your position to aim - its a loose loose

[rotund obsidian]

yeah tbh im not a fan of the idea of scope glint. It may also just make it even harder to see snipers in general, call of duty style.

[late quartz]

Even if people see you you still have an advantage fighting at that range

It's not lose lose it's just not every possible advantage at range lol

[severe shell]

if your playing against another long amo guy who's somewhat competent not really. just aim for the center of the glare

[rotund obsidian]

man, cod glint was so horrible

[hazy quartz]

doesnt have to be be crazy bright like that

[rotund obsidian]

yeah but there's a range where i feel like it's either still invisible or conceals the shooter to some degree

I feel like snipers should actually get higher sway than base, and steady aim shouldn't be a thing

[late quartz]

Zoom means a lower FOV, which means a larger target, which means a lower burden on your aim. It is just objectively easier to shoot a target at long range with a scope even if both players know where they are

[severe shell]

lol I know how zooms work. I also know that you dont want a 6-8X zoom in ranges that compact is going to be killing you. so why still, would I bring a rifle that has significant disadvantages at close range and also significant disadvantages at long range because of glare? I'd rather be the iron sight shooting back at the sniper, because knowing where the shooter is is half the battle. meanwhile just because you have a scope doesnt mean its going to be clear to you were the enemy is. as I said, significant disadvantage at all ranges

[late quartz]

Because you have an overall net advantage at range

The premise is false

[severe shell]

no, its an overall net disadvantage because the enemy will always see you first

[brisk timber]

this scope glint looks fair to me

[late quartz]

If the enemy always see's you first it's 100% a skill issue lol

Players can learn to play around intel

[severe shell]

no its not if there is an obvious light pinpointing where the scope user is

[late quartz]

Not exposing yourself before you have a good opportunity to take advantage of could be part of Hunt's deep tactical mythodical gameplay

[late quartz]

So don't be in front of people when you snipe them, be off to the side

[brisk timber]

Scope glint would also promote not being in scope 24/7

[severe shell]

if your sniping then you need to be watching out for enemies usually using your scope so you will always be exposed in that regard

if your close enough to hear footsteps then you shouldnt be using a scope anyways

[late quartz]

Out of the 360 degrees around a person they will almost never see more than 137 of them at a time

[late quartz]

GOD FORBID scope players have to worry about being shot LOL

I want snipers to be at risk when sniping yes, I don't want them to just plink at people for free

[severe shell]

so your argument is maybe the person is facing away from you when you shoot them? thats why snipers still have such a huge advantage? be real

again I use scope maybe once in like 20 games if snipers were deleated i wouldnt cry but scopeglares are bad game design

[late quartz]

My argument is that killing people who are completely unaware of your position should not be the default

If snipers need that to be viable then snipers shouldn't be in the game