general-chat

[blissful roost]

Indeed...

[tardy badger]

I’m trying to calculate how I’m going to get the funds together for the final prototype for my FPGA dev board I’m trying to sell.

[blissful roost]

I need to find all my kit, so I can get my weather monitor working..

I should look at prices for the RGB sensor.

[ebon dew]

the UV light sensor is another good one to add for a weather station. i'm still trying to save up money for the sparkfun weatherstation and a 3d printer. and design a 16 step sequencer pcb, and do a lora mailbox project. so much cool stuff to do.

[raven thunder]

Is it just me who would really appreciate the dyno bot that blocks links to be made a little less sensitive? I understand having some protection against people spamming etc., but it trips so easily

[crystal ore]

Thanks for the heads up. Yeah, that's a recent change, and the mods were worried that it would be overly trigger-happy.

[tardy badger]

Dyno isn’t really targeting the link per say, but a banned word inside the link.

But also spammed links

But also it’s not consistent at all lol

[night crescent]

ASK AN ENGINEER 8/31/2022 LIVE! https://youtu.be/vkIxxGsw21E

[violet parcel]

accidently ate the seed in my peach 😦

[crystal ore]

How the heck do you do that? Peach stones are rather large, hard, and often sharp...

[violet parcel]

the core was pierced when I got the peach and didn't think about it and accidently swallowed it whole, the little almond in it was rather small and looked like an almond/chopped walnut

[rapid geode]

the seed has cyanide. youre going to want to vomit that up real quick

usually there isnt enough to cause serious harm

[blissful roost]

It will take 5-10 bitter almonds for a child.. around 50 for an adult.

[rapid geode]

to kill you yes. but even one will make you quite sick

[blissful roost]

Derp

[rapid geode]

and that is almond. google says 10-15 peach seeds will kill an adul

t

[violet parcel]

well my local anti-poison have a web page about it ( ontariopoisoncentre.ca/household-hazards-items/fruit-pits/ ) so I'm going to trust them over discord

[rapid geode]

obviously

[blissful roost]

Good call

[violet parcel]

but they shouldn't put things like that in peaches imho, they should use gibberellin that prevent seeds in bananas, oranges etc...

[blissful roost]

Ohh, goodness no.

I'd never buy them.

[rapid geode]

the basic rule for peaches is (obviously dont eat the seed) but if the pit is cracked or open, do not eat it.

as in, do not eat the whole peach

obviously 1 peach has a low risk

but, it is still there

[violet parcel]

I'm more worried that I swallowed it whole honestly possibly along with some pit fragments

kinda like fish bones can do damage

[rapid geode]

i think the pit fragments arent going to do anything

its only the cyanide that is a worry

"The pits are more poisonous if they are ground up/crushed or the seeds are chewed"

so maybe swallowing whole is lucky

[raven thunder]

Yeah, my issue is the "posting links too fast" thing

also, this amused me, still not sure if it's deliberate

[tardy badger]

It’s deliberate

I think Kattni helps write some of the product descriptions

[burnt tendon]

I can assure you that if I wrote the descriptions they would be worse.

[raven thunder]

Did you used to use Flickr quite a bit by any chance?

[burnt tendon]

Yes.

Ooooh.

Right.

Name did look familiar.

[raven thunder]

plays the Flickr jingle

though unfortunately I can't find the PARP remix James made years ago

[burnt tendon]

You know there's a Flickr discord server right?

But yeah an astonishing number of people end up here and then realize that the Wirehead who makes puns they know elsewhere is the Wirehead who is here with the mastet punster role.

[ebon dew]

https://tenor.com/view/i-found-this-humerus-humorous-funny-hilarious-lol-gif-21266301

[fleet rampart]

made a little breakout for this sensor. MA702.

it's a magnetic position/angle sensor 🙂

[raven thunder]

ooh

[brazen jungle]

hax

[fleet rampart]

get gud get lmaobox

[brazen jungle]

pretty sure my led matrix is cursed. clock and latch read 5v when powered on

[fleet rampart]

ordered the breakout boards. they will teleport here, thank u JLCPCB

[late fulcrum]

Some circuits will tend to pull inputs high for various reasons, it might be worth seeing if it's just vaguely pulled high or actively driven high before hooking other circuitry to them. Hooking a 1kΩ resistor from the input to ground should pull it low if it's a safe, high-impedance pull-up. If that doesn't pull it low, something else is probably going on (in my experience, when I see stuff like that, I've often somehow gotten the connector pinout backwards).

[waxen canyon]

I think "hobby knife anti-roll wing"
could be short for
"How well does it fly?"
Might need disclaimer with Darwin not always getting his way anymore...

[fossil glacier]

Hello. Has anyone gotten the raspberry pi pico with APA102 LEDs working?

[shadow siren]

from a quick read they are addressed by a spi interface and yes pico has spi

from what I see the DI is data and the CI is clock, the other tow wires are power
http://cdn.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Components/LED/APA102C.pdf
http://cdn.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Components/LED/S60102.pdf
https://www.digikey.ca/en/maker/projects/apa102-addressable-led-hookup-guide/093dc573bcf2487ab2146cec7fd870b3

[umbral phoenix]

@fossil glacier the led is controlled by the wifi chip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WbU1tmKuCw

[fossil glacier]

@umbral phoenix I failed to mention I have a Pi Pico not a Pi Pico W.

But that is interesting.

Thanks @shadow siren I believe I have been through all that already but will look again.

[sonic prism]

what environment are you programming in ?

[raven thunder]

If anything that's handy as it's already fully supported in CircuitPython (assuming you're using it..)

Have you been over this @fossil glacier ? https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-dotstar-leds

[winter trellis]

Question about https://www.adafruit.com/product/1463 it says they need to be powered with 5v, but can the neopixel data signal from a microcontroller (say a feather or teensy) be 3.3v or does that data need to be 5v as well?

[raven thunder]

https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-neopixel-uberguide/logic-level hopefully has you covered

[winter trellis]

ah i c

[shadow siren]

@fossil glacier as far as SPI goes does not matter which pico you use

Just need to know the pins on the pico

[raven thunder]

You've got a lot of options for SPI pins on the Pico https://learn.adafruit.com/getting-started-with-raspberry-pi-pico-circuitpython/pinouts

[brazen jungle]

it's kind of strange. i grabbed a nano and just tried driving it setting just red bits for every led. on the scope, the clock line only sees a low of ~1v.

[late fulcrum]

That is odd. 1V may well be low enough to be interpreted as a low logic level, but that seems suspicious.

[brazen jungle]

I don't know the purpose, but there's also 8 100r resistors near the hub75 connector that feel like they are probably at 1/4w. They are hot and transfer heat through to the pcb to the LED side

[gusty torrent]

This is my go-to circuit for neopixel data line level shifting:

[late fulcrum]

5V would push 50mA through 100Ω, dissipating ¼W in the process, so I would expect them to get warm. What I wonder is why they're there. I've seen setups with series resistors to reduce reflections, but those wouldn't get warm.

[late fulcrum]

I wouldn't tend to use a PNP transistor there.

[slim shard]

data line should be somewhat high impedance?

[gusty torrent]

I use a 2SA1015 though

output is low-impedance in this circuit

[late fulcrum]

With the output low, it would put a 5V drop across the transistor and two resistors, which is fine. With the output high, it would put 5 - 3.3 = 1.7V across the transistor and two resistors. R2 will give emitter degeneration, but the transistor will still conduct some and it will reach some sort of equilibrium, but it's an odd lashup.

[gusty torrent]

It gives sufficient swing to meet the datasheet specs for the worldsemis.

[idle iron]

I saw a counter-clockwise clock and now I want one.

[late fulcrum]

They're easy to build

[slim shard]

45 degree mirror?

[idle iron]

do you just add 1 gear to get it to go other way?

[late fulcrum]

Most of them use a synchronous motor that will happily run either direction, along with a spring clip that kicks it back if it randomly starts the other way. Reversing the clip effectively reverses the motor.

Removing the clip entirely lets it pick a direction every time it's powered up

[whole jacinth]

so reducing it to a microwave turntable motor 😆

[late fulcrum]

Exactly

[whole jacinth]

because apparently it's so much cheaper to make a 1-phase synchronous motor and mechanically kick it in the right direction than to make a 2-phase motor with the right capacitor or driver?

[late fulcrum]

That's my guess too.

Now I'm thinking I could paint hands on a microwave turntable and use it to tell time. It may be geared to some other speed than 1 RPM but since you mentioned it, I'm thinking the speed should be predictable.

[whole jacinth]

they seem easy to back-drive, though, so maybe not geared low enough for stable speed. my observation is that with any appreciable load, the speed is much less predictable

[late fulcrum]

That would make sense, there's no reason to optimize for speed nor torque. Still, I'm tempted to try it, perhaps with a lightweight hand (I suppose multiple hands aren't really needed)

[brazen jungle]

150r only pulls down 5.1 to 3.1v off the clk pin. lol

[late fulcrum]

That's a really stiff load. Even TTL doesn't source that much current out of its inputs.

[brazen jungle]

probably safe to say this isn't how it's supposed to be. and maybe why that nano is acting a little funny

[late fulcrum]

I'm inclined to agree with you.

[whole jacinth]

oh, wow. having seen an increasing pattern pop up here and in the forums, i'm starting to think it might be a good idea for any CircuitPython "Hello World" examples to blink an LED instead of/in addition to printing text to the console, to make sure that the code is actually running on the board instead of locally on the host

[stray wind]

We almost always point folks to a blink example immediately. However, making the default code.py created when installing CircuitPython include blinking an LED would be a bit involved as not all boards have a little red LED, not all boards have a status NeoPixel, etc. I agree that should definitely be the next step, but it is difficult to make it the default step.

[tropic urchin]

just throwing it out there since I'm in the neighbourhood but why not a board.STATUS device or something that accepts HIGH or LOW and can be mapped per-board to whatever indicates status (by default).

[whole jacinth]

i guess import board failing is a pretty strong signal that they're running Python on the host, but it could also spuriously succeed if they have Blinka installed, right?

[tropic urchin]

I haven't tried Blinka on a non-raspberry pi yet, personally.

also, ah I missed that show and tell had its own channel. redirects above post

[violet parcel]

gratz for getting helper role!!!

[tropic urchin]

🤔 I should try mangling Blinka to do cool things on my LattePanda one of these days... could handle the main GPIO and the Leonardo's (via firmata?) potentially.

[tidal lance]

I'd like to make a copy of the Amazon Dash button, but having trouble finding APIs where I can order a pallet of Diet Coke. Any ideas? Instacart API seems to be the best so far but would love if there are others. Needs to not have a minimum order, like Zinc.

[limber tundra]

you guys should include the current draw of the n00ds on the product page!

[violet parcel]

50ma

[lusty fossil]

huh

I typed out a binary number and it was spam?

Anyone good at excel/gsheets transfers? I have some binary numbers in a spreadsheet that I want to download as a CSV, but when I open that CSV with excel, it gets interpreted as decimal numbers. This worked once but I don't know what changed between then and now.

[stray wind]

Duplicated words or characters. Sorry about that.

[lusty fossil]

np, figured it was something like that

oh gosh I forgot you folks swapped chat and tech. I guess this is an OK spot

I figured it out, sorta. You can change the excel formatting to "text", copy, then paste with "match destination formatting"

[raven thunder]

Finally got my latest haul, and yup, Pimoroni really did make custom pin badges to celebrate their 10 year anniversary.

[ancient rivet]

fun stuff! neat badge. got something nice to show the MLX90640 images on?

[raven thunder]

Yeah, planning to use it on my ESP32S2 TFT Feather

Hoping/assuming that Adafruit's library for it will work, as the sale meant Pimoroni's breakout was 40% off.

[ancient rivet]

should work fine

[raven thunder]

Going to hopefully use it to work out how terribly badly insulated my apartment is, obviously nowhere near as nice or high res as a Flir, but it is also around 5x cheaper than even the phone ones they have.

[ancient rivet]

what's your plan for wiring it up to the feather?

[raven thunder]

A Stemma QT -> jumper wire cable that I'll put into/onto headers on the MLX90640

[ancient rivet]

easy peasy

[raven thunder]

Hopefully yeah, though still wish someone made friction-fit jumper wires

[ancient rivet]

don't forget about the stemma power thing:
https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-esp32-s2-tft-feather/power-management#stemma-qt-power-3123061

[raven thunder]

Which thing in particular?

[ancient rivet]

it's not always on. it's a feature for low power usage.

just need to remember it's there and enable it

[raven thunder]

It seems to be always on in CP at least, and I'm pretty sure turning it off was broken last time I tried doing it

[ancient rivet]

yah, it might be. same for arduino. but if it not, then simple matter to manually enable. just set digital pin high.

[raven thunder]

for context, I've had the Feather for a month or two

Though this might explain why invoking the EN pin only dropped the current used to around the same as in deep sleep (around 90uA):
"The ESP32-S2 TFT Feather is equipped with a STEMMA QT port and NeoPixel which are both connected to their own regulators. Unlike the one controlled by the ENable pin, these two are controlled by GPIO."

[raven thunder]

Ugh darn, Pimoroni sent me the old versions of the Qt Py, and just realised my MagTag's display isn't on straight either 😦

[burnt pine]

Does anyone know how much current this coil requires? https://www.adafruit.com/product/5140

[blissful roost]

That's a very good question... I found the datasheet for the XKT-333, but that doesn't seem helpful to my mind.

I have no idea how you'd work out how much the peak current would be, considering losses.

[royal quarry]

Wich IDE / Editor are you guys using for ciruitpython?

[dusty citrus]

I think they recommend 'mu' for beginners.

I'm a 'vim' person so everything I do has to work with that constraint. ;)

[violet parcel]

So last night I dreamed a bit about morrowind and electronics, and was told by Azura that 4 microcontrollers must name me Nerevarine

[raven thunder]

I'd assume it depends a lot on the LEDs themselves, though wireless power is usually around 50% efficient at best

[sick adder]

https://www.lo-tech.co.uk/downloads/manuals/tandy/Tandy_1000SX_Technical_Reference_Manual.pdf ooh this has a full description of the Tandy 1000 keyboard protocol. It's not particularly similar to a PC keyboard.

also http://www.smbaker.com/tandy-1000-upgrades-ps2-tandy-keyboard-adapter and https://github.com/sbelectronics/ps2-tandy/blob/master/ps2tandy.c has some source code

[raven thunder]

I think I might have gone to a Tandy store when I was a kid

[late fulcrum]

Radio Shack was a division of Tandy Leather, so you could buy a lot of Tandy brand stuff at Radio Shack.

[sick adder]

I just have the keyboard and boy is it filthy

[late fulcrum]

One common approach is to take the keyboard apart and run all the plastic parts through a dishwasher (some people like to put the small parts in a mesh bag so they don't get flung around and lost)

[raven thunder]

Tandy Leather?

[raven thunder]

https://tenor.com/view/schitts-creek-ew-gross-david-rose-disgusted-gif-18489037

[late fulcrum]

Yup. Corporate history can take some bizarre turns. Votrax (the speech synthesizer chip company) was a division of Federal Screw Works.

[sick adder]

The keycap construction is interesting

[raven thunder]

Looks a lot less fiddly than the one on my MBP heh

I really want to take the keys off to clean under them but I'm just a tad afraid I'll break them in the process. The official repair manual they released shows that the Official Apple Way of doing it involves a special tool with specially cut adhesive strips and then you discard the keycap after...

[sick adder]

Special shape for the lock keys with led

[raven thunder]

That is both really cute design and also oh my god the filth is so bad I'm surprised the bot here isn't filtering it 😉

[sick adder]

It was in a basement for probably about 20 years

[raven thunder]

I both like this plan and wonder if the plastic/lettering will survive the temp/washing, maybe test it with just one mixed in with a regular dishwasher run? Also, mildly related PSA, use the prewash compartment of your dishwasher, and if it's one that takes in hot water from your home system, run the hot water tap to get it hot before you start it. If you're wondering why, here's 32 minutes going over it 😉 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

[sick adder]

I'll start with soap and water outside the dishwasher but these look like they'll be tough to get clean

Plus toothbrush

[tardy badger]

Daily garden update, I am apparently growing 2 types of watermelon lol

[sick adder]

Pet photos is over there🤣

[tardy badger]

Lol

[late fulcrum]

Give 'em a good soak first, it will reduce the amount of effort required and possibly help preserve the key markings if they're delicate since the grunge will come off with less scrubbing.

[tardy badger]

Well, they do say that plants are the new pets

[raven thunder]

Oxo make a little small + tough cleaning brush that I'm so darned pleased I bought years ago for stuff like this: https://www.oxo.com/categories/cleaning-organization/kitchen/sponges-and-brushes/deep-clean-brush-set-orange.html

[raven thunder]

I wonder if you could wrap a FSR around to track their growth? 😉

[tardy badger]

Maybe 🤔

[raven thunder]

I mean, waterproofing aside..

[tardy badger]

I want to get a time lapse camera to track growth next year

Going to see if my community manager will let me have a third box next year just for watermelon and pumpkins

[sick adder]

Before

After

Ignore the color difference

Weird internal construction of key switches. They're little dome switches and to get more travel they have these metal levers

[raven thunder]

Is there an official/easy way to report a potential issue with a learn guide? The only way I can see it to find it on Github and post an issue there, might be handy to have a link, even if it's smallish, on each guide page.

[raven thunder]

https://tenor.com/view/squeaky-clean-clean-shower-bath-cleaning-gif-15628038

[sick adder]

@raven thunder on the left hand side of every guide page, you can use this link:

it's quick and anonymous, even when you're signed in to adafruit

[raven thunder]

This is almost as bad as me submitting feedback to Digikey to ask them to add a "highlight differences" thing to the comparison tool, and then realising within 30 seconds that there's a "hide same" button at the top 🤦‍♂️

Going to reply to the person from there who emailed me to point it out with this GIF

https://tenor.com/view/coneofshame-dug-up-gif-5972447

In my defence, I was very sleepy..

[sick adder]

No worries! There's a lot of stuff there and it's easy to overlook

[violet parcel]

Since I dirty my keyboard so much I guess I should build my next one 😦

[sick adder]

hehe

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3478494 is the first full keyboard I built, it was a fun experience when I was done, but halfway through I said "I'll never hand-wire a keyboard again". So then I created and built https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4129809 which is also hand-wired 😭

[burnt tendon]

But by only quoting two keyboard designs you are really cherry-picking your data set.

[dusky estuary]

Hey guys, any ideas on how to attach a neopixel strip to clothing?

[raven thunder]

https://learn.adafruit.com/flora-rgb-smart-pixels

Though ah, you specifically said strip

[violet parcel]

was looking at one-tech stuff, they are pre-wired I think

but you can change the keys themselves and the keypad under the keys

but that doesn't help with the easy cleaning part

[dusky estuary]

Yeah I've seen those before, but I was looking to do a strip. Not sure how feasible it is though

I would want to put them under something like this https://www.coppercompression.com/products/copper-compression-long-arthritis-gloves?variant=38115265675444&currency=USD&gclid=CjwKCAjw9suYBhBIEiwA7iMhNK6PO2fRKQ-FGCW7GcEv6lMQibaQt7g0bflptCplqq-NvTgjqnO_uhoCeggQAvD_BwE

(No, I do not have arthritis) 🤣

[raven thunder]

going around or up and down the length of your arm?

I think how much they'd have to constantly flex might be a bad thing

[dusky estuary]

Along the length of my arm

@raven thunder

[raven thunder]

@dusky estuary: While I still think the Floras are probably your best bet, and if the RGBness isn't a requirement, the new n00ds might be a good option:
https://learn.adafruit.com/cosplay-glow-fur-raver-bandolier
https://learn.adafruit.com/glowing-whoville-hat/introduction
https://learn.adafruit.com/rainbow-chakra-led-hoodie
https://learn.adafruit.com/bandolier-of-light

Though be aware that a lot of those guides are a bit old so they're likely to recommend older microcontrollers than what might be optimal by now

This is reminding me of how I keep wondering if Adafruit should have some sort of Recommended Board picks that are kept updated so those newer to this stuff can be shepherded to good boards to start with depending on their needs/priorities/budget. Like Wirecutter: Adafruit Edition.

[dusky estuary]

Yeah I was thinking of going with those if I couldn't figure out neopixels

[raven thunder]

The n00ds?

[dusky estuary]

Yeah

[raven thunder]

Neopixels are a bit more complex in some ways, though you get adjustable colour and brightness and don't need to deal with figuring out resistors etc.

[dusky estuary]

Yeah I've used neopixels a bunch, just never integrated them into clothing

[raven thunder]

though it's a shame I can't seem to find RGBW Flora Neopixels

I'd probably go with Flora Neopixels and use silicone wires to connect them, not just because I'm a silicone wire fanboy, but because the flexibility is most definitely your friend for this

Though on the sewing front I have NFI heh

[dusky estuary]

Yeah ig thats what I'll have to do

[raven thunder]

How are you going to power it?

[blissful roost]

I'd be keen to see what stains it leaves on sweaty skin, if there's any actual copper in there. 😅

[raven thunder]

Oh and yeah, obviously do not use something infused with a super conductive material like copper haha

[blissful roost]

Yuh huh.....

I love the smell of burning flesh in the morning.....

[dusky estuary]

Yeah that was just an example of the type of material

[blissful roost]

Ohh... And I'm reasonably sure that copper can be absorbed by the skin too.

[dusky estuary]

LiPo

[blissful roost]

It's ok, I'm not having a crack at you at all.
I just have a severe allergic reaction to snake oil. 😂

[raven thunder]

Trying to remember how well NeoPixels are fine with the voltage from them, also obviously be very careful if you're using a pouch lipo or the burning flesh might still be a thing..

Any idea what board you might want to use? What do you want it to do/how do you plan to control it?

[dusky estuary]

🤣

[dusky estuary]

Prob was gonna custom make a pcb for this

Want to integrate a barometric pressure sensor

[blissful roost]

BME280?

[dusky estuary]

Yeah probably

There was one I found a while back that has an integrated temp sensor and can determine change in altitude without me having to do any math

[raven thunder]

Think that's probably a bit unnecessary

Though depends how big/teeny you want it to be

[blissful roost]

Yeah.. that's part of the bonus.
Temp, pressure and humidity.

[raven thunder]

the ESP32S2 Feather has a little unpopulated pad for a BME280

[dusky estuary]

Oh wait thats awesome

I didn't know that

[blissful roost]

I got one for my Pico W

[raven thunder]

yeah, though a QT Py + breakout would probably be stackable depending on the dimensions that are most useful

that said, if you are gonna use lithium ion batteries, you get built in charging and a JST with a Feather

[dusky estuary]

Yeah

[raven thunder]

oh wait, no, you can get it included, think it's just an unpopulated space on the TFT version: https://www.adafruit.com/product/5303

Obviously won't be as accurate in temp/humidity terms as one on a breakout partly because of thermals from the board, especially as the SHT40 is more accurate to begin with, but in terms of integratedness

[dusky estuary]

Yeah I don't need anything super accurate

[raven thunder]

Planning to use CP or Arduino?

[dusky estuary]

Arduino

[raven thunder]

cool

This could also be good and you get way more sensors and Bluetooth: https://www.adafruit.com/product/4516

[blissful roost]

The BME280 is pretty darn accurate, but they can self-heat.. Maybe compensate for about 1-2c.

YMMV

[raven thunder]

I wonder if the APDS9960 could work through the material, so you could control it by moving your hand over it

Mouser have it in stock: https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Adafruit/4516?qs=OlC7AqGiEDnRC96XjvDUSQ%3D%3D

no Stemma QT though, which is a shame

[blissful roost]

I've not really considered anything with Stemma QT myself.
I breadboard all my prototypes, so it doesn't seem to add anything for me.

[dusky estuary]

Ok so I think I have a plan

Gonna use this as my micro, as recomended https://www.adafruit.com/product/5303

[raven thunder]

If you end up needing/wanting 5V, Pololu have you covered with teeny boost boards:
https://www.pololu.com/category/132/step-up-voltage-regulators

Also, if you want to use safer NiMHs for this, with buck/boosts that'll deal with variable voltages.
https://www.pololu.com/category/133/step-up-step-down-voltage-regulators

[dusky estuary]

And I'm going to use it to control a single neopixel strip that is ~8in long

I want to mount this to my forearm, so I'm going to 3d print essentially a gauntlet to go over my arm

And the neopixel strip will mount to that

And then I'll put the fabric forearm thing on top of that

[raven thunder]

If you are going to use lithium ion cells, I'd suggest going with the cylindrical ones/packs Adafruit sell. You still need to be very carefully with them, but at least they have a metal outer shell instead of being simultaneously squishy and must not squish.

[dusky estuary]

True 🤣

The microcontroller, battery, and a display will all be in a hard enclosure on the back of my hand

And then since the micro has wifi I'll be able to configure everything remotely

[raven thunder]

Keep wondering if Pimoroni got these custom made for them: https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/galleon-400mah-battery?variant=40061068673107

[raven thunder]

On your local network?

[dusky estuary]

Nah I'll have it in access point mode

So I can connect to it over wifi

I wont be near an open network

[raven thunder]

Ah, I have no experience with using that, though that might be a bit annoying if your phone thinks it should provide a real network connection, definitely one advantage of the NRF route.

[blissful roost]

You might want to look at power consumption against other MCUs, like the Pico W.
Just a thought.

[raven thunder]

Pretty sure the Pico W is higher power than the S2? Certainly in terms of deep sleep.

[blissful roost]

Not sure, but it's worth a look.

[dusky estuary]

Its power consumption compared to the neopixel strip should be negligable lol

[blissful roost]

Haha

[dusky estuary]

Would just write a custom desktop app to run on my laptop

[raven thunder]

The ESP32S3 does exist, gives you an extra core and BTLE, and is probably more stable in Arduino than in CP, though I don't know if it's still a bit buggy.

The Arduino world is not mine heh

That said, while the S3 Feather has a space for a BME280, it's not included, so you'd have to do some teeny soldering/hot plate/air work to add one: https://www.adafruit.com/product/5477

[raven thunder]

Don't forget the capacitor

[dusky estuary]

True

[raven thunder]

Was the plan to try to feed them power from the BAT pin on the Feather?

not sure what how you want it to work, though the DoF Accel + Gyro in the Sense Feather might be fun

fling out your arm and have the lights change with it etc.

[dusky estuary]

Yeah probably

I'd have to look at how much current that pin can source though

And how much the neopixels will draw

[raven thunder]

Indeed

this is good https://learn.adafruit.com/sipping-power-with-neopixels

[dusky estuary]

Ooh yeah

[violet parcel]

@raven thunder I was a bit let down a few years ago by top gear and I more or less stopped watching english TV. Like someone pointed in the comments section for the show similar in germany partnership that the spitfires they supposedly sent to belgium to meet the other show never actually left a RAF base and the german show was just filmed reacting to nothing

[sick adder]

The before photo

[violet parcel]

I'd expect a show like doctor who to be green screen/3d model rendering but not one like top gear and I don't know what to trust in it anymore

[raven thunder]

Yeah, I stopped when they did that absurd "let's lie about electric cars in one ep and do hydrogen puff pieces in another" thing, though British TV is definitely a lot more than just Top Gear.

[violet parcel]

true, but bbc charge a lot in canada to see their stuff so I basically just buy doctor who seasons on my xbox instead of having a british TV plan that cost like 15$ a month

[raven thunder]

Heh I stopped watching Dr Who years ago when Moffat took over, though I guess I don't watch as much BBC stuff as I used to

[raven thunder]

I feel like I can somehow smell how clean it is from here

[sick adder]

too bad I don't have anything to test it with. The connector is oddball (DIN-8) so I'll have to order it I guess

and then write a USB converter for it in CircuitPython

[violet parcel]

I liked a couple of scenes in top gear like the eurofighter typhoon race, the mall test and beach landing etc but since we don't show some stuff in the "same scene" it could have just been filmed 2 weeks apart and composited together with green screen etc

[raven thunder]

Just order enough stuff from Adafruit that you get a free KeeBoar 😉

[sick adder]

I'll be using a QT PY RP2040 I think

[raven thunder]

Or you could technically just cut the connector off

[sick adder]

😱

this connector is inside, I considered making an internal USB mod

it's close enough to .100 pitch that a 6-position header fits in, and red/black are vcc/gnd, that much is easy to tell from the schematic

[raven thunder]

Looks like Stemma QT+

[sick adder]

"Stemmmma"?

[raven thunder]

https://tenor.com/view/stella-stellaa-face-palm-marlon-brando-gif-7989614

(but imagine the text said Stemmmma)

[sick adder]

so ... I'll think about it, vs getting a matching connector from digi

[violet parcel]

so for custom keyboard can you start from a normal keyboard and replace the keys and key base ?

The spacebar that is hanged from two sides by a metal wire annoyed me feel years and feel very cheap to me (and can't be put back in)

[sick adder]

getting the "stabilizers" properly installed is another painful part of keyboard making.

I'd say if you want to modify a keyboard look for guides or videos where people have done similar stuff .. I haven't done that really, I've done more building of fully custom keyboards (PCB or not), or (just in the last week or so) making converters to hook obsolete keyboards to USB

[violet parcel]

yeah I think you are lower-level than what I would do

[raven thunder]

sure there isn't already one for this?

[sick adder]

for instance, without verifying it, I wouldn't assume that you could put custom keycaps on an inexpensive USB keyboard. The "stems" are probably different

[violet parcel]

I looked at stuff like epotech and that just touch the frontend of the keyboard

[sick adder]

not sure if this is the brand you mean but holy cow this is adorable ... https://epomaker.com/products/epomaker-kitty-keycaps-set

[raven thunder]

ugh is there a way to stop the big MagTag LEDs from flashing on errors?

[violet parcel]

so I'm not sure if that is what peoples mean by "custom keyboard"

or if it's an option between normal ones and custom

[unreal marsh]

any hints on modifying an IBM PS2 keyboard (with the round connector) to use USB ?

[sick adder]

I'm not sold on the letter-forms but the other keys are cute

[raven thunder]

Feels kinda Charles Rennie Mackintosh

[violet parcel]

there are many adapters

[sick adder]

@unreal marsh I haven't done it myself but https://github.com/hirsimaki-markus/arduino-PS2-to-USB/blob/master/PS2-to-USB.ino looks like it might work. The basic idea is that the microcontroller listens for the signal from the keyboard on 2 pins, and translates it to USB HID.

With a PS/2 keyboard it could theoretically also send codes OUT to the keyboard to control the LEDs but I don't think this project does it.

[blissful roost]

I was just thinking about my own keyboard project...

[sick adder]

There's also this project from adafruit, though it uses a bluetooth module instead of arduino or circuitpython: https://learn.adafruit.com/convert-your-model-m-keyboard-to-bluetooth-with-bluefruit-ez-key-hid/code

[violet parcel]

"Because nothing screams "portable" like a 6 lb keyboard." 🤣

[sick adder]

er I guess arduino gets loaded on the module? I don't know, I just looked at it real quick

[violet parcel]

remember doing "sword fights" with ibm keyboards back then 🤣

[blissful roost]

I'm looking at mounting a Pi Zero 2 W inside my IBM SK-8815.

... might be worth stuffing a Pico in there too, with the GPIO ported out.

[violet parcel]

are you guys really serious though? because making it usb/bluetooth won't make it faster since you won't be replacing the printed contacts on clear sheets under the keys...

so this wouldn't be suitable for gaming

[blissful roost]

....

The typical Model M is mech.. the RBDs are a bit rarer, I think.

But, that shouldn't make a difference either way.

[sick adder]

qmk also seems to have some PS/2 "converter" firmware https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/converter/ibm_terminal/readme.md

[blissful roost]

Besides that... "Faster", for gaming... ?!? 😅

[sick adder]

@blissful roost what's an "RBD"?

[blissful roost]

Rubberdome

[sick adder]

ah

[blissful roost]

I've never actually seen a Model M rubberdome in the wild..

I've destroyed plenty of the mech ones thought. 😈

[violet parcel]

yeah that's what I'm looking for

I have to replace my PC keyboard if it was for a project I'd have asked in general-tech

[sick adder]

how did you destroy them? I've hit them out of anger and ... they're fine. my hand is bruised.

[blissful roost]

That.. and smashing them with hammers... and crushers, shredders, diggers. 😁

[violet parcel]

mine had a metal front/back plate back then...

not sure which one it was though

[blissful roost]

Way back in.. ohh.. 99-2000ish.. I must have destroyed about 60 of them.

[violet parcel]

when you need bleach to clean your keyboard you know it's time to throw it away

[sick adder]

that's too bad, I think they're even valuable-ish now

[blissful roost]

I know.
I was paid to dispose of them.

I pinched 5 to sell, obvs... 😅

[winter trellis]

Anyone know how chainable these are https://www.adafruit.com/product/3449 I want to connect 4 of them to a single feather. The lights won't all be on at once, but I'm wondering if I would still need a capacitor and which pins it would go across if needed

[blissful roost]

I still fancy making a rubberdome keeb, but I have no idea what type of controller to use for a full-size keeb.

I believe that's the last ever IBM keyboard.

[sick adder]

@blissful roost seems like you need >100 but <=110 keys for a true "full-size keyboard" so that's 21 I/O in a matrix, giving 10×11 = 110 possible keys. That already excludes a LOT of boards. Raspberry Pi Pico is still in the running.

[brave copper]

Got my lcd With their backback now I need some female header wires

[blissful roost]

In that case... Would it make sense to do a split keeb, with two controllers?

[sick adder]

I've never used a split so I can't answer that

[blissful roost]

If a Pico is viable for full-size.. I have two spare. Lol

[violet parcel]

If you want to use a single keyboard for both connecting to a pi and a computer (like 1 usb in 2 out) it's a kvm switch right ?

same for mouse and 4k screen

[blissful roost]

Oh, no.. two different projects. 😁

The IBM is the one I want to mount a Zero + Pico into.

The other would be a custom keyboard, just to build.

[violet parcel]

I guess for my keyboard issue I should just get a completely sealed one like they use in hospitals 😦

[blissful roost]

The Zero keeb will just be like a portable PC.

Throw in a Pico as a gimmick.. 🤪

I think the SK-8815 is perfect, because it has two USB ports on the back.. easy mouse connection.

Seems viable, I just need to work out the practical.

[violet parcel]

maybe it's time I get a wireless keyboard...

[blissful roost]

..but you wanted something "faster" for gaming?

Wireless = moar latency.

[violet parcel]

why do you put "" between faster?

[blissful roost]

Sarcasm.

Personally, I think it's a massive joke.

[violet parcel]

I'm talking about the poll rate, found my keyboard has a 2400hz poll rate, how is that sarcasm ? I paid for a usb 2 keyboard that has 1970 AT connector speed

[blissful roost]

No. I'm being sarcastic.

Sorry.

I should be clearer.

I've used a £10 Logitech K120 to beat people who've spent just dumb amounts of money on "gaming" keyboards and they always bleat about "latency" and other nonsense.

[violet parcel]

I'm trying to avoid 200$ gaming keyboard / mechanical / etched keys etc

[blissful roost]

Definitely do avoid....

[violet parcel]

just want something where keys wont fade in 6 months like my current one and that make me pays 60$ for a AT connector from the 1970 poll rate

[blissful roost]

The K120 is pretty much a generic USB rubberdome keeb. It's so basic. 😁

[violet parcel]

finding one that's easy to clean like 1980 membrane keyboard (I could put them in water with dish soap) and have replaceable keys would be ideal

[blissful roost]

Personally, I think it's more important to have something that feels right.

The SK-8815 is great for gaming, IMO.. but it's too big for my desk.

[violet parcel]

My current one does but I'm sick of paying to replace it every 8 months because the keys fade

5th time in a row I buy it...

[blissful roost]

Why I don't pay for keebs. Lol

[violet parcel]

also the mouse always fade to the plastic and has wiring faults

so on my previous one I'd get electrocuted

also it stays on when the computer is off

[violet parcel]

what do you want me to do exactly ? wait till the keys are faded ?

[blissful roost]

Nah.. do as you will.
Just don't get ripped off by the "gAmInG!" fad.

[violet parcel]

or the custom keyboard fad I guess ?

seems like a waste of money to pay 100$ for the pcb, 100$ for the plastic case, 100$ for the stems and 100$ for the keys

[blissful roost]

At least then, it's more "because I can!".

[violet parcel]

oof when an improperly ratedmultimeter meet an electrical breaker box 😱

[tardy badger]

Vector calculus is soooo much fun

[whole jacinth]

wow, did you set it to the wrong range or function or something?

[violet parcel]

no worry not me. not me , this is a video Im watching on youtube. Someone tripping breakers on purpose

Keysight multimeter too...

Since it abruptly stopped at 120V I guess it wasn't rated for above it

They probbed an outllet with a screwdriver too (but with a big plastic pommel)

I'm not sure what happened really

Yeah I think they are doing it on purpose

Don't want anyone getting bad idea so I removed the culprit 😄

that's why I like my multimeter having leds near the test points

to tell me which ones I'm supposed to use

[violet parcel]

Just watching mains education. What bother me most about mains is how quick things can get bad

[whole jacinth]

yeah, mains power stuff really can get bad quickly, especially if you're not careful enough. 1.5kW on tap in a small volume of space is something to respect

[violet parcel]

Just learned the dangers of having a power cord with prongs on both side as well. I hope it's not the same with diy electronics male/male jumper wires...

[whole jacinth]

it depends on the voltages and currents available. 12VDC from a car battery can be pretty nasty because of the low impedance

[violet parcel]

yeah that's why I haven't done r/c yet

seeing 120A 12V on an ESC to turn motors is a bit weird to me

those motors can pull as much watts as my stove (just for far less long)

but what happens if I'm accidently in the way? Or nothing because motors are probably high impedance ?

[whole jacinth]

a cold motor at startup acts like a very low impedance short circuit

[violet parcel]

Also I once encountered a downed power line and called 911 but they told me it was a telephone line and they didn't care 😦

[brave copper]

does adafruit sells wires for thir LCD Backpack I can use?

I need female ones that connects to the GPIO Pins

[sonic prism]

like jumper cables ?

(which backpack ?)

[brave copper]

Adafruit's i2c/SPI one with terminal blocks I've got their standard LCD with extras - using it as a pi display status

[sonic prism]

they have a whole selection of jumper wires like those (there's a menu on the right to chose other types)
https://www.adafruit.com/product/1954

[brave copper]

will it be secure on the Terminal Blocks?

[violet parcel]

you could also use female & male headers

[brave copper]

it's a perma thing it's going into my amiga 1200 case

i2c or SPI - I'm planning to use I2c for my pi

[violet parcel]

I suspect they measured a voltage with the probes into the current holes

[whole jacinth]

that seems plausible

[violet parcel]

also when I touch the buttons on it to reset/change boot and it's powered not sure if the pain is the pin pressing against my skin or electric heating 😦

[whole jacinth]

which board? the QT Pys reportedly run a bit hot even under normal conditions

[violet parcel]

qt py esp32-s2

like it's not instant hot but if I keep my finger there for long (like when you have to boot into the backup bootloader) it get uncomfortable after a while touching the pin

[brave copper]

it says pin 1 is near the logo and it should be like this

correct way to solder the backpack on the LCD?

[late fulcrum]

That depends: which pin is pin 1 on the LCD?

[brave copper]

here's how it's set up

16 - 1

Just making sure it's correct so I don't blow anything

[sonic prism]

yeah ESPs run hot and the QTPY has little surface to spread the heat on

[violet parcel]

can it get very hot to the point I get a small burn and I'll need to plan better with the qt py so that I don't have to change wires/touch buttons while it's running etc ?

Also I couldn't find a ready-made case at all for it

[brave copper]

pin 1 is the one on the right on these LCDs from Adafruit

okay the terminal block is at the edge like the assembly now

[sick adder]

I'm typing this on my Tandy 1000 keyboard using an Adafruit RP2040 Feather to convert it to USB HID. This converter is a bit harder than the one for the XT keyboard because it's a weirder keyboard in terms of layout and how the lock keys work but gee it feels nice to type on

for instance with num lock off, the keys marked "2478" send "`|\~" instead (and those keys don't exist in the standard locations)

Wiring not approved for permanent use

[brave copper]

that's pretty cool maybe you can do an Amiga 600 Keyboard and get it running on one

[sick adder]

it might be possible! From the images I found it looks like this is a matrix type keyboard without diodes, so you need a larger number of I/Os -- someone's actually made a board that goes with the Pi Pico to do it! https://github.com/thinghacker/Amiga600KeyboardUSBAdapter

[brave copper]

the MPU is on the keyboard itself expect for the 1200 that's on the motherboard

[sick adder]

interesting, I'm not super familiar with Amiga so I was guessing based on some photos

[brave copper]

I'm working on creating a raspberry pi Amiga os inspired computer that runs Amiberry all inside an A1200.net Dark Blue Amiga 1200 case

[violet parcel]

I guess since I'm powering the qt py with USB the LBO step-down must eliminate the excess voltage as heat as well

[violet parcel]

When you really like some food and your body is like MOARR!!! but it's expensive so you couldn't make a lot

basically mango salad with bell pepper and lime fish sauce with 2-3 cups of cilantro/mint (it's really just an excuse to not just eat the cilantro/mint like a salad)

[ebon dew]

@sick adder looking forward to reading about the tandy project!

maybe we'll see it on show & tell this week?

[crystal remnant]

Hey Hey!
Newbie here.
Quick questions:

1. Are you guys still giving away patches for joining the discord server?
2. BME680 - Im looking for deets on how the Gas measure works, and how important it might be for my project

[ebon dew]

I haven't heard of patches for discord since I've been active which is about 6 months so where ever you heard that my guess is no.

the bme680 learn guide is here https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-bme680-humidity-temperature-barometic-pressure-voc-gas if your question isn't answered by that then you'll probably want to ask it in the forums.

[violet parcel]

They mean #3617 (This is the "Adafruit Flower Discord" badge - we aren't selling this badge - you have to earn it! Join us on Discord at http://adafru.it/discord and be a good cyber-citizen. Our moderators award these free badges to helpful community members) and #3718 Adabot Discord Skill badge

[sick adder]

I don't know that I'll give it a full write-up. I did a small blurb on my personal blog with a link to the code though. https://emergent.unpythonic.net/01662257474

[timber plinth]

does anyone have any links or functions for scrolling text on a 64 x 32 led matrix

[violet parcel]

and I got blocked for asking the above above badges on the community channel 😦

[ebon dew]

hmm ok so where is that question coming from? is there an old post or video that mentions it?

[violet parcel]

shrug probably something when they launched the discord

I don't personally care but since someone asked I though of asking in #help-with-community for them

[whole jacinth]

those badges still show up in the shop under "badges/patches" as "not for sale". no idea if they're still giving them out

[whole jacinth]

specifically for asking about them? or was it a bot action due to detecting link spamming?

[violet parcel]

bot action (some unmentioned reason)

sent a DM to kattni to ask but forgot to ask for permission so deleted it 😄

[junior quail]

What would be the best place to provide feedback on adafruit learning pages? (in this case: the RGB matrix tutorial points to external documentation that no longer exists)

[sick adder]

@violet parcel I'm not sure what's up with the question you asked in the help-with-community channel. It looks like a fine question to me (I don't know the answer though). For some reason, Discord noted it as a "flagged message" but at least for me the message remains visible. I've also raised the issue separately with other moderators, so we'll get you an answer.

@junior quail Look for the link that says "Feedback? Corrections?" on the left of each page. The info you leave is anonymous, even if you are logged into your adafruit account.

[junior quail]

@sick adder Ah, I did look for that at the bottom of the page but it's in the menu 😅 thanks

[violet parcel]

others don't see it I guess but you staff can I asked for @crystal remnant who said "Are you guys still giving away patches for joining the discord server?"

[sick adder]

It's easy to miss! and you're welcome

@violet parcel I checked with my non-moderator account and I think the question is still visible to others. But, do you mind DM'ing (or public posting) me a screenshot of what you see?

[ebon dew]

Yeah don’t dm kattni without permission, grab a moderator first if it’s not an emergency. Making admin mad always a bad bad idea. 🫣

[rustic marsh]

Hey folks! Hope you are all doing well. Might be a semi weird question: has anyone seen a Neopixel Ring with flexible pcb?

[raven thunder]

Though this video is for the 688 rather than the 680, it might include some discussion that covers some of what you're wondering about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudty379x4g

This covers how this kind of sensor works: https://sensirion.com/media/documents/0083CDF4/6294DFEA/Info_Note_MOX_sensor.pdf

[dusky estuary]

I made quite a mistake...

Ordered smt placement on this pcb, but didn't realize I had the micro usb port backwards

Oops

Anyone know of ways I can surgery this back to life?

[lusty fossil]

Ouch! I've done stuff like that before, don't feel too bad.

[dusky estuary]

Any way for me to fix it on this batch?

[lusty fossil]

I don't know of a way myself

[dusky estuary]

oof

Annoying thing is I cant even see if I made any other mistakes since I won't be able to plug the thing in 🤣

[whole jacinth]

it might be better to ask more specific questions at #help-with-hw-design or #help-with-projects ?

[blissful roost]

For testing, you'll have to bodge it..
Desolder the socket, remove it.. and solder on a chopped USB cable.

[dusky estuary]

Oh sorry I thought I was in that channel

My bad

[dusky estuary]

True, I can try that

[blissful roost]

Now... Go to your room and don't do it again!
😂

[night crescent]

Desk of Ladyada - Goin' With the Flow Control https://youtu.be/bEKBof-NqB0

[dusky estuary]

🤣

[blissful roost]

😁

[waxen canyon]

other than the cable thing, maybe if you relocated c9 you could get a 90degree plug in?

[tardy badger]

Found an inch worm trying to take an inch out of my pumpkins so I decided to pull em

[light harbor]

Hey is there anything about a kb2040 with battery and wireless? Seems like a logical step forward with the pico dub

[tardy badger]

KB2040 would need a battery breakout to assist with managing battery power.

[dusky estuary]

Omg I never would've thought of this

C9 is a decoupling cap for the input voltage going into the voltage regulator

But I have another decoupling cap out the output of it

So I should be able to remove c9 without any issues

[raven thunder]

I think the PicoW is just the RP2040 chip plus a STM (?) WiFI/BT chip, though when you say battery do you mean a battery connector like a Feather?

[blissful roost]

Infineon CYW4343

Not enough coffee... I have the dumbs.

[raven thunder]

hey I'm the one who confused chip makers heh

[blissful roost]

Too early, not enough coffee.. got woken up at around 1am by thunder and rabbits. Lol

..then I had to wake up at 6am for an overtime shift. 😅

[blissful roost]

Age check! 😅

[raven thunder]

Anyone know what happened with EYESPI? It's on 3 displays but I'm not sure if Adafruit sell any boards with it?

[late fulcrum]

I guess you could try cutting a ring out of this... https://www.adafruit.com/product/2294

[late fulcrum]

I came along slightly later, I was [seismo,allegra]!mimsy!eneevax!spam

[blissful roost]

👍

1973 is before my time, but I recall being quite impressed when I first looked into the origins of our beloved internet.

[light harbor]

Yes

[late fulcrum]

By the (later) time I got online, the nascent network had been extended by UUCP, allowing computers to connect to each other via phone calls and modems (generally in the middle of the night) and hand off information that way. While not a real-time connection, it was good enough for email, usenet, etc. Automated routing wasn't reliable yet, hence the practice of giving your email path from a well-known hub (such as seismo, the Seismic Research Lab, which was a well-connected one near me). Then, if someone wanted to send me an email, they'd know their path to a hub and could then build the complete path from their machine to mine. The email would be handed off from machine to machine, traversing the "bangpath" until it arrived in my inbox.

[dusty citrus]

We used a Commodore Vic-20 with the matching modem to dial into one of those MIT nodes.
Commanded a printer at MIT to print something out, then took a walk over there to pick it up.
Pretty sure it was still ARPANET and I didn't understand much of what I was seeing on his display. ;)

A few years later I was using gopher and telnet and ftp and email (on a dial-up account into Uni VAX) but the WWW was still in the future. By 1994 the first ISP accounts were available without 'knowing somebody' (open to all takers, about USD $30/month).

Prior to that I'd heard of arrangements where the person wanting access agrees to pay for the installation and maintenance of .. a telephone line! .. at the source end of net connectivity. ;)

We did talk about a radio-based network but never got past the talk stage, in our computer club.

[brave copper]

I've tested my broken male to male jumper wires and the male jumper pin is tightly on Adafruit's Terminal Blocks

[hasty quarry]

@tardy badger Another gem just now

“0.999… is already smaller than 1 so there doesn’t need to be a number between them for them to be different”

[late fulcrum]

What is this in reference to? Sounds mathy.

[hasty quarry]

Yesterday I talked about a bunch of people refusing to believe me that 0.999… = 1

[hasty quarry]

And I told them…for any a < b, there exists a number c such that a < c < b. What is c such that 0.999… < c < 1? and they responded this

And it went on and on yesterday. “But you need to account for the infinitesimal added to it”, “No but we could just invent a new symbol that represents that number between them”, “It’s how computers can’t show you decimals properly, so 0.999… isn’t real”

[static flare]

algebraically, if two numbers are different, you can halve the difference and add that to the lower number, getting a new number, no matter what

[hasty quarry]

Well, mine was more general, but the same idea

“What is a number that lies between them?”

Not just asking for their mean, but just anything between them

[dusty citrus]

@hasty quarry Seems to me entirely arbitrary what you're saying. Its a definition. You would usually show 'a series of things' to show where it fits in.

I have no problem with your (their) definition; I do have a problem with the eye rolling (a minor one; I get it can be frustrating when you know 'the doctrine' and they do not).

Gödel's incompleteness suggests only human insight (and no machine algorithm) can 'intuit' that the two are 'the same' (0.99.. and 1.0). I typed more 9's to make it clear it's a repeating decimal but the bot rejected that one as spam. ;)

[hasty quarry]

Yes, exactly. 0.999… is not hardware representable. My response was that we were never talking about hardware limitation, which has nothing to do with the concept of 0.999…

They may be correct that it can’t be represented, but it just wasn’t the point. They fundamentally disagree with me that 0.999… is 1, mathematically, not computationally

[whole jacinth]

catching up… are you all talking about the equivalence of the repeating decimal 0.99… and 1? under what assumptions? one of the standard interpretations of the real numbers, or something else?

[late fulcrum]

When you said "refusing to believe me that 0.999… = 1", it seems to me like you're saying it is 1.

[hasty quarry]

It is

Or at least, yes, yes that’s exactly what I’m saying

[late fulcrum]

But when you say "is not 1", it seems to me like you're saying it is not 1.

[hasty quarry]

Oops, typo

[late fulcrum]

It gets quickly into the calculus of limits and infinitesimals.

[dusty citrus]

;) Hey I was fine with a person saying it 'is' one ('1') if that's generally agreed upon in the literature.

I wonder if there's a known statistic on the precision of decimal representation that .. says a particular numerical entity is the very most precise number we know about (in terms of 'legitimate' digits of precision).

[hasty quarry]

I argue it doesn’t really have to get very complicated, nor do limits need to be involved. 0.999… is the concept of the never-ending 9s. You need to agree with the rule that the 9s never stop, so there is no number that lies between 0.999… and 1

Making them the same number

[dusty citrus]

that's just xeno

[late fulcrum]

Depends on the assumptions and axioms you're using, more than anything else.

[whole jacinth]

i guess there is a question of whether you choose to interpret 0.99… as the infinite series 9/10 + 9/100 + … or as the real number 1 resulting from evaluating that infinite series

[late fulcrum]

Like a Planck's constant of mathematics?

[hasty quarry]

I don’t understand what can be nonstandard about what I’m saying. I’m confused on that

[late fulcrum]

And "infinite" depends on which version of "infinite" you mean (there are countable and uncountable infinities, for instance)

[dusty citrus]

I don't know .. of precision? We were taught to look askance on 'extra' digits of precision.

[whole jacinth]

i'm not sure how an infinite summation can be any other than a countable infinity?

[hasty quarry]

I guess countable since you can count the 9s but they never end

There can’t be a number between 0.999… and 1 because no matter how small a number you add to 0.999… the result will be slightly over 1, and not exactly 1, because the rule is you can always (and must always) assume there are just more 9s making 0.999… slightly bigger and bigger

[dusty citrus]

still xeno

[hasty quarry]

I don’t understand

[late fulcrum]

I'm not sure I accept "because there's no number between them, they are equal". For instance, considering integers, there is no integer between 1 and 2, but 1 and 2 are not equal.

[hasty quarry]

Why do you say considering integers?

I’m talking about the dense continuous real numbers

[late fulcrum]

To give a clear concrete example of an argument where your assertion is demonstrably false.

[hasty quarry]

The rule is that between any a < b, there exists at least one number c such that a < c < b

[dusty citrus]

I can easily visualize a half-unit at the .999.. level that interleaves ;)

[hasty quarry]

In the set of real numbers

You can’t just say:

0.999… < 0.999… (but slightly bigger) < 1

That’s just not the concept

[dusty citrus]

after all, 999 is in base ten, which only has ten 'things' to represent other things.

The entire .999 construct is on the face of it a work-around for an impoverished system of expression

[hasty quarry]

This could happen in any base with whatever repeating “decimal” comes before whatever “one” is

[dusty citrus]

sounds like you're just throwing resources at a defense (the original argument was somewhat compelling; whereas now it looks like additional cement patches here and there to shore things up).

[hasty quarry]

This is my main point at the moment, sorry

[hasty quarry]

I agree, sorry. My main focus is that comment above

[dusty citrus]

I would just say xeno here and leave it at that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno's_paradoxes#Proposed_solutions

[hasty quarry]

Can you please explain what you mean by that

[dusty citrus]

well like Aristotle argued about 'things infinite in respect of divisibility'.

[hasty quarry]

Oh, that paradox

[dusty citrus]

He's claiming a soft continuum I think. No hard boundaries. Quantum <foo> wants to say that yes there are discrete things in the Universe.

Your 0.999 to 1.0 is like when on (1966ish) Lost in Space, one moment nothing is there, and the next, a creature. They stopped filming, and then added the creature, as in clay animation.

Like the universe has a void between the two. ;)

It's probably just as hard to assert 1.000.. (repeating) meaningfully (in a decimal place notation).

To my thinking these are construction numbers, only, and are most useful when building machinery.

[tardy badger]

I think the bigger issue comes down to what people are trained to do when they see any base 3 division, any infinitely repeating valued over 5 is rounded up for the sake of ease in computation. Most people don’t understand proofs by Taylor series expansions and limits applied to them.

We tend to Intuitively say that 2/3=0.67 because by the same argument that 0.999… = 1, you can’t add any value between 0.666.. and 0.67 in which is larger/smaller than either. Thus, when we add 1/3 to 2/3 we just say it’s 1. Adding 0.333… to 0.67 then just makes 1.

Rational in math is complicated for sure. And without understanding the underlying principles, it can be hard to make equivalences.

[dusty citrus]

smalltalk delivers the answer in fractional notation! (squeak, cuis, pharo).

22/7 = (22/7)

1 - (1/3) = (2/3)

[crystal ore]

Handy. I presume it has integers of unbounded size too?

[late fulcrum]

Slightly related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LKy3lrkTRA

[dusty citrus]

Seems to - not sure. 100 factorial produces a very large number and it's printed. ;)

[dusty citrus]

opinion on crosley audio equipment?

[normal forge]

any one knows a decent server where people discuss stuff that pretain to firmware hacking ?

[late fulcrum]

The original Crosley gear is pretty solid vacuum tube era gear. The modern stuff is cheap with the now-abandoned Crosley name slapped on it.

[dusty citrus]

alr i was wanting to get a crosley speaker and a crosley radio

[dusty citrus]

'information implies surprise'

• James Gleick 'The information: A history, a theory, a flood' not sure if he was quoting someone else or doing his own synthesis

[dusty citrus]

aha:
https://www.extremefinitism.com/blog/why_every_proof_that_0-999_equals_1_is_wrong/

I had this one in mind (possibly; looks like it):
"ARGUMENT 3: The argument that there is no number between them so they must be the same."

[late fulcrum]

That's the one I demolished with my integer example.

[dusty citrus]

Haha I think that you did. ;)

I'm guessing that base 16 is adequate to show something 'in between' as it has a higher resolution (density) of expression. 16 symbols vs 10. We don't have a 'dot.decimal' expression for base 16 but I don't see anything at all privileged about base 10.

[late fulcrum]

The argument (and numbers) are proportionally equivalent, with the hexadecimal assertion hinging on whether 1.0000...₁₆ is equal to 0.FFFF...₁₆

Similarly with binary or any other base: to me, the base is just a representation of the "actual" numbers.

[dusty citrus]

Right. But there's a 'half unit' value that is easily imagined (decimal number * 0.5)

[late fulcrum]

True, but not terribly relevant, as the argument hinges on where (and whether) that digit can be located.

It all boils down to "a digit at position ∞" versus "a digit at position ∞+1" (hence my asides about countable and other infinities)

My assertion remains that 0.9̅ is infinitely close to (but not identical to) 1.

[dusty citrus]

That seems right.

[late fulcrum]

Others disagree, which is of course fine. I happily consider counterarguments, but I'll poke holes in them if they seem unsupportable to me.

[dusty citrus]

I was mainly concerned with whether there's an accepted answer or not. Seems the subject has been covered .. ah .. adequately. ;)

[late fulcrum]

It's one of those annoying notions where there is more than one accepted answer

[dusty citrus]

I'd be more curious to hear what high-profile mathematicians have to say about it. Especially for a lay audience' benefit. Roger Penrose and John Horton Conway in particular. ;)

[crystal ore]

My favorite proof that they're the same is to assume x=0.9999... Then 10x = 9.9999.... Now subtract, so 10x - x = 9.000.... So x = 1, Q.E.D.

[late fulcrum]

I'd be curious to see what someone like Jae Choon Cha has to say about it, as there are some concepts (like this) where Korean mathematicians have some different takes on things.

[dusty citrus]

Good points (both).

otoh Ed you're saying x is two different things in your proof, I think.

[late fulcrum]

That "proof" also hinges on countable vs non-countable infinity

[dusty citrus]

cancel-ables seems to be part of it.

[crystal ore]

No, it's demonstrating that 0.999 is the same as 1... start with one value and arrive at the other.

[dusty citrus]

tautology

[crystal ore]

I don't believe so. A tautology would assume the conclusion before you get there.

[tardy badger]

Good news is math only cares about assumed equality. We say that 0.66.. is roughly 0.67.

[late fulcrum]

You could also assert 10x - x = 8.9̅

[tardy badger]

8.9?

[dusty citrus]

"Measure with a micrometer. Mark with chalk. Cut with an axe."

[late fulcrum]

eight point vinculum 9, so ~9

[tardy badger]

I would argue the only time the diff between 0.9999.. and 1 matters is quantum mechanics.

[late fulcrum]

Not to math theorists!

[crystal ore]

Well, the subtraction is just going digit by digit. The intention is to leverage that digit-by-digit reasoning into drawing a conclusion from it. Although technically 8.9999 is the same as 9 too.

[late fulcrum]

What numbers mean is everything to math theorists

[tardy badger]

My brain read “math terrorists”

[crystal ore]

(Since I think even people who think the numbers differ would generally agree that 9.9999 = 9 + 0.9999, and therefore 9.9999 - 0.9999 = 9.)

[tardy badger]

The Limit of x—> ♾ for the Taylor series approximation for 0.99 would lead us to 1.

But the difference between 0.99.. and 1 will always be 0.0..1

[whole jacinth]

…which is zero in the limit

[tardy badger]

And the limit of the Taylor series to approximate the difference between those two would be 0

Yes exactly

[crystal ore]

A concept like "an infinite number of zeros, then a 1, and then it stops" is kind of nonsensical to my mind.

[tardy badger]

Yeah

Which is why these approximations are so mind bending but necessary

[whole jacinth]

the limit of 10^{-x} as x approaches infinity

[tardy badger]

{10^(-x)}

Dang, thought maybe latex was supported

[late fulcrum]

Alas, no

[whole jacinth]

i've seen people ask for it, but it's apparently not implemented

[tardy badger]

I wonder if there’s a discord plug-in

[whole jacinth]

i think someone recommended KaTeX? though i'm not sure i want to relax whatever protections Discord has on JavaScript execution enough to make that work

[tardy badger]

Yeah, same

[dusty citrus]

I think there's a kind of LaTeX bot in the Arduino discord already
https://gitlab.paradoxical.pw/team-paradox/paradox

[tardy badger]

Off topic of math discussion, I am really appreciating how my “Electromagnetic Fields and Guide Waves” and my “Antenna Analysis and Design” class compliment each other

[whole jacinth]

nice

[tardy badger]

Doesn’t relate so much with my solid state electronics class though which is fine

Having to use homework help to jog my memory how to do vector calculus and visit khan academy to relearn curl and divergence. Fun stuff.

The downside of undergrad is you take Calc 3 but never really use it

[whole jacinth]

for me, 3rd semester Calculus was differential equations. learn all these convoluted techniques to get exact solutions, and then get to actual engineering classes, where it's all "oh, let's just Laplace transform everything to reduce it to linear algebra and that's good enough"

[tardy badger]

I took differential equations as a separate class

I need to break out my old math notes

Thankfully they are out in bin in the garage

[tardy badger]

Ohh great haul of peppers

[waxen canyon]

yum

[rapid geode]

theres another 50 or so that are still green

now i need someone to give them too

[dusty citrus]

"If we would accept the equality '1 = 0.999..' then we must accept that (on infinity) '10 = 9'."

[blissful roost]

Sega Mega Drive Mini 2 available to pre-order on Amazon.... and I can't afford it. 😭

[tardy badger]

One thing that I wish I could find was a detailed report of at what point in the totality of an electric car does it become carbon neutral. Meaning the total amount of carbon to manufacture everything down to the last bolt vs the amount of carbon of an ICE + time driven in daily life. ICE obviously will never be carbon neutral, but given how much you drive would be relatively the same.

Up until some point

[dusty citrus]

consumption isn't neutral though. It's consumption. If it weren't consumed it'd still be available to be consumed, later. ;)

[tardy badger]

I guess I’m asking given the life of an electric car, it’s carbon impact due to manufacturing of all components, the manufacturing and maintenance of all charging stations, is there a point where it’s net Cardin impact is negative. Assuming all charging stations used are “renewable” sources

From my layman’s view, electric cars don’t really solve the problems we face with congestion, pollution, or climate change. It seems like electric busses/mass transit would have a faster return than singleton cars. Especially because most people are not car pooling and riding alone.

[rapid geode]

electric cars are currently disposable, which is a big problem. 5-10 years, they go in the bin

[raven thunder]

Eventually we can probably get to a point close to carbon neutrality, but the key thing is mostly how much better they are environmentally overall than ICE vehicles, and it's not even close.

[raven thunder]

This just isn't at all true.

[rapid geode]

sure it is

[tardy badger]

We can recycle things

[rapid geode]

it does not have to be true, but it is right now

[raven thunder]

Again, it simply isn't at all true.

There are 10 year old EVs on the road right now. I can literally buy one right now: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202208128720115?postcode=sw1a2aa&year-from=2012&sort=relevance&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&radius=1501&advertising-location=at_cars&model=Leaf&year-to=2012&make=Nissan&include-delivery-option=on&page=1

[rapid geode]

but you cant get parts to fix most of them. at least not for a rational price.

[blissful roost]

The majority of materials in EVs are recyclable.... The main "concern" is the cost of recycling.

[rapid geode]

recycling is a different topic

[raven thunder]

That's quite a climbdown from "they go in the bin", but can you provide evidence for this statement?

[whole jacinth]

individual enclosed passenger vehicles aren't really long-term environmentally sustainable. tires and roads are both consumables that require a lot of petroleum

[raven thunder]

Though I'm a big fan of mode shifting and not designing homes/places to be inherently car dependent, EVs do help solve a huge array of CO2 and other pollution issues, plus a massive number of EVs out there can potentially be used as batteries for the grid as well, which is a very useful thing in terms of wider decarbonisation.

[raven thunder]

By "negative", did you mean compared to an ICE vehicle?

[rapid geode]

depends where you live. in some areas served by goal or gas, it is worse to use electric for consumption, however they can "clean" the emissions better in a big plant than in individual cars.

[tardy badger]

Sure

[rapid geode]

where i live its 90% hydro and nuclear

so electric is better, IF the grid keeps up

[raven thunder]

Even in places with relatively fossil fuel powered grids, they're still far better

[raven thunder]

Ohhh, that they definitely do, lemme find you some data

This is pretty old, but it was true even 7 years ago and grids in the US have gotten a lot cleaner since then: https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/cleaner-cars-cradle-grave

[tardy badger]

I tend to think that there should be more regulations around commuting for work. For instance, unless a job has a truly verifiable need to be in person, in an office, that job should be remote, or localized to a local cowork space rather than having someone drive 45m+ to work

[rapid geode]

in another 50 years it will all be electric and we will wonder why we though gasoline was a good idea. just not quite there yet

[raven thunder]

oh dyno, whyy

[raven thunder]

Why do you think it'll be 50 years?

[tardy badger]

We saw some of the cleanest air in decades because of people having to stay home yet the push to be “back to office” has put us right back where we were

[rapid geode]

random number. i would hope/expect things are all worked out by then

could be 20, 30, 100

50 seems safe

ha

with switching heat to electric our grid is taxed pretty hard.

[raven thunder]

https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/how-clean-are-electric-cars/

[rapid geode]

cars will be an even bigger upgrade

[raven thunder]

If you use heat pumps for it, which is the best way to do it, it uses less energy because heat pumps essentially multiple the electricity you put into them.

[rapid geode]

they way or gov works, ill giv em 50 years haha

yes, but its still electric, where it was always gas before.

so it is a big hit

[raven thunder]

Plus as above, EVs can be a very good partner with more intermittent renewables in terms of when they charge, alongside acting as batteries for the grid.

[rapid geode]

we are supposed to expand nuclear power. that seems to be what they are baking on

(here)

[raven thunder]

In a whole lot of places gas is a core part of how electricity is produced though, and obviously the alternative is permanently destabilising our climate so shrug

[rapid geode]

wont be permanent, just till we are all dead 😛

haha

yeah

all im saying is i expect it to take a lot more time than some people wish

i mean we cant even manage phone service properly here

hehe

[dusty citrus]

,tex $10^{(-x)}$ on the arduino discord

[tardy badger]

Oh cool

[raven thunder]

I think the switch is going to happen quicker than a lot of people think, especially as the upfront cost keeps dropping, once you hit parity the much lower running costs change things a lot, Norway is a preview of this.

[tardy badger]

Okay so the first link said something along the lines of a Tesla would require 18 months of drive to make up for the carbon emissions in the manufacturing process

[dusty citrus]

works in their #voice-text type channel (possibly only in that chan?)

[tardy badger]

Smaller EVs, around 6 months

[rapid geode]

we'll see. i still say 50 years is a safe bet. if after 50 years we have any more than a few classic cars on gas running around, we have done it wrong.

[tardy badger]

I wonder how that compares to EV busses

[raven thunder]

Yeah, the first one is a bit old so the numbers are likely even better now, but obviously as people tend to have vehicles for longer, they're quickly much cleaner, plus many of the embodied emissions are possible to clean up, while it's inherently not possible to do that with tailpipe emissions

[tardy badger]

EV buses would theoretically remove something to the tune of 40-50 vehicles off the road given that most people drive alone

[raven thunder]

I'd expect EV buses to pretty quickly do something similar considering the huge amount of diesel an ICE bus uses

[rapid geode]

we have had ev busses since the 70's

[tardy badger]

We already know that ICE bus usage is correlated with a reduction in overall greenhouse gas emissions compared to the comparable car emissions for the same people transported

[rapid geode]

but they are wired

weird things

ha

[dusty citrus]

having a living room you can drive down a cement and rebar highway at 60 MPH clearly is not a rational thing to be doing, at scale.

[rapid geode]

we have had every type of bus here. fuel cell, natural gas, electric. deisel still wins out (for now).

[tardy badger]

If we legally reduced the number of people having to commute but putting restrictions on the kinds of workers could work in person, we could put a huge dent in emissions

[dusty citrus]

they pretty much paved every single square foot of the lot behind the building next door. It's barely ever used (most of that paved surface only displaces vegetation, and serves no good at all)

[tardy badger]

Exactly

[dusty citrus]

The problem is crazy people.

[tardy badger]

Large office complexes are worthless if the same work can be done from home.

[rapid geode]

my dad used to drive to his sisters house. 4 doors down the road. (not even a joke). we need to burn away the car culture here.

[tardy badger]

Obviously not everyone can have a machine shop in their garage

[rapid geode]

i can

😛

[tardy badger]

I’m contemplating getting an EV bike to make small grocery runs rather than pulling out my huge car.

[dusty citrus]

otoh people who had access to a privately owned vehicle had a serious advantage when covid arrived.

[tardy badger]

Only thing is cost, EV bikes are a we bit pricy

[raven thunder]

Be surprised if diesel actually wins out compared to a modern EV bus at this point

[rapid geode]

well, it is complicated. they invest instead into new subway lines and streetcars. but they keep diesel busses everywhere else

[raven thunder]

I think the bigger issue in a lot of places, especially in North America, is how places are physically built to essentially require you to use a car to get places, suburbs and zoning that means that even assuming you can work from home, you're likely going to need to drive to get food or do anything else

[tardy badger]

True

The community I live in, thankfully I can get to Walmart with an E-Bike

[rapid geode]

i expect the battery problem with busses is not overcome yet. a bus runs 500-1000km every day, 300+ days a year.

[tardy badger]

Costco might be a stretch but it’s like 1.2 miles away

[raven thunder]

Doesn't mean they actually do win out though, often just that the money hasn't been put forward to cover switching over to them. This is now 4 years old and it's arguably sped up since then: https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/10/24/16519364/electric-buses

[whole jacinth]

you don't undo a century's worth of heavy government subsidies of the automotive and petroleum industries overnight. doesn't mean we shouldn't do something anyway

[dusty citrus]

They did a 'busway' from Hartford to New Britain Connecticut. Basically a private highway for busses, routed along Amtrak. Rubber wheeled subway - board the bus on a platform (like a train) at the station.

[raven thunder]

The miles travelled each day varies a lot depending on the route, and rapid charging is a thing. They're partly excellent candidates for electrification because they're so predictable in terms of route/distance and where they'll end up for charging.

550km range: https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/man-sets-the-standard-for-range-fully-electric-bus-breaks-the-550-kilometre-barrier/

[rapid geode]

Yes, but you are swapping out a $100000+ battery almost every single year.

[raven thunder]

No you aren't..

[rapid geode]

when that becomes 25k every 2 or 3 years, i think its a no brainer

[raven thunder]

Where are you getting this from?

[rapid geode]

if you charge the bus 300-600 times a year, that battery is not lasting much longer than that

[tardy badger]

My other issue is at the company office right now, it’s a solid half mile between the building my cube is in and the labs so it’s either walk in 95+° heat in summer/snow in the winter or drive. Most opt to drive

[raven thunder]

Let me rephrase this. Can you provide evidence for this claim about electric bus batteries?

[rapid geode]

this is about batteries in general. they dont magically become different in a bus

[raven thunder]

If what you were saying was the case, they just wouldn't be getting deployed as widely as they are around the world.

[dusty citrus]

@tardy badger That's because you feel foolish sacrificing when literally nobody else shows any signs they 'care'. So you end up not doing it either. ;)

[tardy badger]

I work from home to avoid it lol

They are condensing my building my cube is in to the other complex next year so that problem will eventually solve itself

[dusty citrus]

When I do mass transit I'm resigned to those half mile walks but they definitely are a challenge that I wouldn't just put in my path on a druther. It's just dealing with what resources I had on hand. When they offered me a cab ride you bet I took them up on it.

[raven thunder]

Battery packs in EVs are generally designed/managed very differently than those in consumer devices. Aside from how you have many more cells, alongside usually having active cooling/heating systems, it's also common to use a narrower state-of-charge range that improves battery lifespan. Plus you can potentially use lithium phosphate cells that have a much longer inherent lifespan as well, though at the cost of some energy density, and it's not like after lots of charge cycles a battery is suddenly just dead and useless, you'll just have the range go down a little.

[rapid geode]

we have apparently 60 electric battery busses in testing

out of over 2000.

[raven thunder]

Every single bus in Shenzhen is electric. More than 16,000.

[rapid geode]

as i said, weve tested everything. we will see what happens with the electric ones

[raven thunder]

Just to continue my love of David Roberts articles, this one is great too: https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/4/17/17239368/china-investment-solar-electric-buses-cost

[rapid geode]

solar is mostly useless here. we get very little sun.

and almost out of spite, wind is not very good because it is TOO windy

[raven thunder]

Where is here?

[rapid geode]

they always have to lock them down

[raven thunder]

Where are you getting this from?

[rapid geode]

from the windmill a few blocks from my office, always locked down due to 100kph winds

it is crazy windy here

i thinkg the turbine only runs like 40-60 days a year sadly

[raven thunder]

What country are you in?

[rapid geode]

the best one

😛

theres one of our electric busses

from the 70's

they were neat

[dusty citrus]

That .. that can be addressed. Not in 70 years. Not in 50 years. In 20 years of steady effort, that can get done.

[rapid geode]

except that we are actively trying to spread out populations

we need high speed interconnects now

like in europe

most of my electricity comes from a creek down the road...

60% apparently. thats crazy

[raven thunder]

Neither solar or wind are useless in Canada, I think it's mostly just that right now you have so much hydro, though wind and solar are going to dominate additional added capacity, largely because they're cheaper than the alternatives:
https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/canada-energy-future/2021/canada-energy-futures-2021.pdf

[raven thunder]

I see that, and raise you the folks who live in Llanberis who get a lot of their power from a mountain 😉 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Jx_bJgIFhI

FWIW, this is the UK grid right now

[rapid geode]

Not where i am. other areas of canada sure. Locally, wind doesnt pan out. solar technically works of course, but we get so little sun the cost isnt justified. if i cover my entire roof with solar panels it wouldnt give me 1/10 my yearly power consumption sadly.

there are places in BC suited to solar

[raven thunder]

Yeah, though a lot of it requires political support and will to get done, and a lot of people are really attached to everything being car dependent unfortunately.

[raven thunder]

Not sure where exactly you are in Canada or how much power you use, though you don't need to live in a super sunny place for it to be useful, I'm in the UK and my mother's power bill for the last week, while we have record breaking high electricity costs, has been -£12.

[rapid geode]

i need a continuous 3kw in the winter for year. i have 8 hours of daylight, 70% overcast.

[raven thunder]

Wait why do you need a continuous 3kW?

[rapid geode]

plus that daylight is a very low angle sun

cause it takes 3kw to hear the hose

house

when it is -35c

[raven thunder]

Resistive heating?

[rapid geode]

no, that with a heat pump

resistive would be horrible

[raven thunder]

Air source?

[rapid geode]

air source is the ony system available

[raven thunder]

Pretty sure at temps that low, your air source pump is going to be massively supplementing things with resistive heating, ground source wouldn't be but it's pricier to install upfront.

[rapid geode]

ground source is impossible

air source works down to -25 at least

[late fulcrum]

I did use (basically) resistive heating for a couple of days once when I had limited options. A computer drawing 1.8kW along with a couple of vacuum tube oscilloscopes heated the room nicely, but gobbled a lot of electricity in the process.

[rapid geode]

it may or may not be suplementing, but if it is, it is inside the system, now separate (i didnt own that system so i didnt poke inside)

[raven thunder]

Depends on the system, thought the CoP is inherently dependent on the input temp and worsens the bigger the gap it has to fill is. Why is a ground source heat pump impossible?

[rapid geode]

resistive in this house is 4-6kw

[raven thunder]

How good is your insulation btw?

[rapid geode]

insulation is fine

why is ground source impossible? did you not see the little waterfall? im on 5 miles of solid limestone

[raven thunder]

Unfortunately it's all I've got in my apartment right now, though it's a small place and we're getting what should be better insulation right now.

[late fulcrum]

If you're stuck with resistive anyway, may as well run computers and oscilloscopes.

[rapid geode]

ha

[raven thunder]

How deep until you get to the limestone?

[rapid geode]

i used to have a 600w pc that would heat my condo almost on its own

1"

and it will take 40 years to justify the cost of the air source heat pump as it is.

most of these things simply do not make sense cost wise

[raven thunder]

One inch? Okay yeah that might be a challenge, though obviously most people don't live in places where that's true.

[rapid geode]

heat pump saves me about $300 a year

people here do. the entire city is rock

[raven thunder]

I didn't say nobody, I said "most people" 😉

[rapid geode]

there is rarely more than 4 feet of soil anywhere in this region

[raven thunder]

I thought you said 1 inch?

[rapid geode]

frost line is 4 ft.

yes, my house is directly on the rock

but i mean for 100km around

[raven thunder]

Though be happy that you haven't got to deal with the energy costs we have in the UK because we're so reliant on gas, heating your house in winter with our rates would probably bankrupt you. Average bills are headed to $448 CAD a month here (we use far less), electricity rates at $0.79 CAD/kWh.

[rapid geode]

8.5 cents here

off peak

pats the waterfall

[raven thunder]

https://tenor.com/view/water-splash-spatter-smear-gif-17131830

[rapid geode]

in winter my bill is $120-$150

[raven thunder]

Yeah, for context, the rates we're getting next month are almost double what they are now.

[rapid geode]

use gas. i hear thats cheap and plentiful in europe right now

[raven thunder]

Haha, we do, but it's still more than doubling.

[rapid geode]

gas doubled here a while back (not europe related). but even then it is relatively cheap

usually cheaper to heat with gas

for now

its kinda even now with heat pumps

the gov is paying you $5000 to get a heat pump though.

so, that makes up for it

[raven thunder]

I mean if you can insulate more, I definitely would.

[rapid geode]

insulating an existing house is (mostly) pointless.

SEALING it is critical

[tardy badger]

My power bill is fun. Up over $200 in the summer and down to $80 in the winter

[rapid geode]

mine is $60 in summer

ac on full blast

however, this house is kinda small

[tardy badger]

I’d love a $60 summer power bill

We have to keep the house cold at night otherwise my daughter gets sick

[raven thunder]

Why would that be pointless?

[tardy badger]

Around 18-19C at night

[rapid geode]

well, youd spend $10000 doing it and never get more than a few bucks a months back

[raven thunder]

Maybe for added context, basically nobody in the UK has AC

[rapid geode]

sealing the holes though saves $$$$

and costs little

[raven thunder]

Would you though? Again, I'm not sure where you're getting these numbers from. Sure, sealing holes is great, but it's not an either/or.

[rapid geode]

i did all the math

[tardy badger]

Sealing for airflow leakage and applying good R value insulation can go a long way

[rapid geode]

the attic is the primary heat loss after holes.

the wall and floor, meh, dont add up to a lot

[raven thunder]

It depends a lot on your home construction and the kind of insulation you can/do go with, solid wall insulation is pricier to do.

[rapid geode]

solid exterior r10 is the only think that would be useful, but thats a $50000 job (new siding etc)

[raven thunder]

Hmm, I'd be surprised unless your wall/floor insulation is already excellent

Got a cavity wall?

[rapid geode]

walls are r12

this is canada, what i call no insulation is what california calls a fortress

but the walls are 2x4. so r12 is max. unless you start padding.

on a NEW house, then everything is on the table, you build 2x8 walls and go to town with the spray foam

but the work on an old house is too expensive for the benefit

eventually i will redo the siding, and THEN i will add r5 or r10 underneath it

[raven thunder]

Not heard of "R12", lemme see if I can convert that to W/m²K

[rapid geode]

the attic is the same. blow $600 of cellulose into it to save $200. doesnt make sense.

oh

yeah

canadian r12 as well, not US

and not effective

its all stupid calculations

[raven thunder]

California actually has probably the best energy efficiency in housing in much of the US btw

Btw, someone tell me if all of this energy nerd chat is verboten here btw, I've been assuming that as long as we keep away from politics/religion and keep it civil it's okay.

[rapid geode]

my frieds house in LA is plaster over studs, hollow walls, windows dont have seals.

that is not efficient

[raven thunder]

How new is it?

[rapid geode]

who cares, we are talking old houses. new ones are a different topic outright

[raven thunder]

It's pretty relevant when it comes to what I said in terms of regs

[rapid geode]

i have no idea. 80s, 90s maybe

my house is 1945

brand new houses here need R20 walls PLUS r10 continuous sheating

R60 attic

and mixer taps

runs

[blissful roost]

There's loads of Police outside my apartment building....

Being nosey.. lol

[rapid geode]

they are coming to steal your arduinos

[blissful roost]

Lel

I'd go for the Picos and the Dell servers. 😅

[rapid geode]

see i hide all mine in dusty boxes so they will never even know to steal the rtx 4000

and they cant steal this no more, its gone 😦

dumbest story ever too

basically, i wanted them to warranty the frame - fix or replace. they first tried to dodge it, and then had the retail store refund me and take it back. which made no logical sense at all. i gave them the frame (no parts) and they refunded the cost of the whole bike. except the price i paid pre covid is half the price of the new one, so somehow i still got screwed.

blah

haha

[raven thunder]

This chat reminds me, I need to try the thermal camera breakout I got

[rapid geode]

to inspect air loss in the house?

i want to try that

the way i do it right now is look at where the snow on the roof melts first

😛

[raven thunder]

Heat loss generally but yeah

It's super low res compared to a Flir, but it's also literally 10x cheaper than a Flir..

[rapid geode]

ah

we were looking at flir cams for a scanning setup. adds up real fast when you need 80.

[raven thunder]

It's the Pimoroni version of this, got it for around £33, 40% off the normal price https://www.adafruit.com/product/4469

[blissful roost]

I get the impression something very not good has happened

[rapid geode]

O_o

[blissful roost]

They are questioning other residents.

[rapid geode]

oh

[raven thunder]

reminds you to check your legal rights when it comes to talking to cops

[blissful roost]

Ohh, I'm fully aware.. lol

Great thing about studying one's rights in this country..

[rapid geode]

you have the right to pizza. i think thats one

[blissful roost]

Pizza sounds really good right now.

[rapid geode]

order one for the cops

ha

[violet parcel]

Someone blew the breaker, find multimeter/soldering iron in suspect apartment 😄

[tardy badger]

Intel’s A380 has been out since Aug 22nd and they’re already getting scalped lol..

Retail for $139, sold out, and sold on eBay for $200+

[violet parcel]

Not sure what's the point of a gaming chair if there is no usb cable/ports in it...

executive type office chair have a lot of foam in them too...

[blissful roost]

Uuugghhhh

USB ports... On a chair?
Nope!

[violet parcel]

why nope? what's the point of a "gaming chair" if I can't actually game on it (like a support on it for joystick/mouse etc)

[rapid geode]

O_o

kids....

goes back to work

[blissful roost]

Because chairs move ....

[violet parcel]

ok....

executive chairs half the price also move...

[ebon dew]

i think you're taking the term gaming chair too literally

i mean there are gaming bean bag chairs.. no one expects to have a usb port in those.

[blissful roost]

Yeah... Guess what doesn't like moving..

Cables that are plugged in.

[whole jacinth]

auto-retracting cable reels or coiled cables exist

[blissful roost]

Yeah and those are a PITA too. Lol

I can't imagine anything getting in the way more than a cable attached to a chair.

.. unless you've got a cat. 😅

.. or a rabbit.

[whole jacinth]

how much are you moving your chair around while gaming anyway?

[blissful roost]

Quite a bit, personally.