general

[haughty bear]

..amazing

ICU takes up just under 20mb

and I import a single one of its classes in my entire project

[knotty oasis]

20megs huh

[haughty bear]

what is minimizejar?

[knotty oasis]

its a maven option

[haughty bear]

any equivalent for gradle?

[knotty oasis]

it omits classes during shading that arent imported

dunno

can you send the -all jar?

then I can see with winzip or winrar or whatever whats taking up the majority of space

[haughty bear]

using minimize gets me down to

[knotty oasis]

oof.

[haughty bear]

tasks {
    shadowJar {
        minimize()

        listOf(
            "com.ibm.icu"
        ).forEach { relocate(it, "${rootProject.group}.${rootProject.name}.lib.$it") }
    }

[haughty bear]

discord file size limit

[knotty oasis]

oh I forgot I have nitro

I like to upload videos lol

[haughty bear]

actually it might be due to kotlin stdlib

[knotty oasis]

I thought kotlin was optional

that would be far more of an issue

[haughty bear]

no, the shading just has kotlin in it, which is inflating the file size

[knotty oasis]

lmao

sounds like someone forgot to put the right dependency scope

[haughty bear]

hahaha

unzipped

[knotty oasis]

run windirstat on it, or a linux equiv

[haughty bear]

40 megs

I don't know what windirstat is

[untold meadow]

did you not consider making a nice dsl so the syntax is like kinda readable

[knotty oasis]

looks like this

creates bubbles of folders

then you can more clearly see how the size is used

[untold meadow]

icu is massive tbf

[haughty bear]

it is, it has a lot of data from cldr or whatever it's called

also interstingly, in a file manager icu shows as 26.4 mb

[little frost]

ncdu

[haughty bear]

sorry I dont know any linux equivalents. I can upload the jar somewhere though

[knotty oasis]

probably easier

[little frost]

ncdu for a cli, baobab for a gui

[knotty oasis]

I dont have a drop place running somewhere you can pop it in tho

many just use (free) dropbox

[haughty bear]

dropbox

can i add you so i can dm?

[knotty oasis]

sure

[twin lagoon]

average icu moment

[knotty oasis]

dictionary?

[haughty bear]

so it's all the data

[knotty oasis]

idk wtf this is

[haughty bear]

timezone info

[untold meadow]

i told you icu was big

[knotty oasis]

Resource data used by classes in com.ibm.text.

[twin lagoon]

icu is the one thing we want to get rid of because of how stupidly big it is

and you can't minimize it either

[haughty bear]

is there any alternative to it?

[untold meadow]

no

[haughty bear]

my main thing is handling plurals

[knotty oasis]

icu itself uncompressed is indeed already 26mb

[twin lagoon]

needs more miniphrase

kezz fix it

[untold meadow]

choice format, like i also said earlier lmao

[knotty oasis]

22.4mb is pure data files.

lol

[haughty bear]

lol

I'd use library loader for loading icu in that case

[knotty oasis]

or downloader

[haughty bear]

sure

[knotty oasis]

but why isnt any of this an optional component?

[haughty bear]

because ICU

[untold meadow]

or... choiceformat

[knotty oasis]

im tempted to just straight up fork it tbh

[haughty bear]

does choiceformat support plurals per locale?

[untold meadow]

that's like....... the entire point of it lol

[knotty oasis]

and just split allll the data-using shit in a separate module

[untold meadow]

fork icu

[haughty bear]

https://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/text/ChoiceFormat.html

this?

[untold meadow]

you are kidding

average berger idea

[knotty oasis]

if all I want is locale, simple select and plural, I dont need all this timezone stuff

[haughty bear]

you kind of do

cause the time format also uses tz info

[untold meadow]

i feel like the guy in the brick wall meme

[haughty bear]

and currencies

[knotty oasis]

I dont use those

[limber knot]

the timezone might impact the plurals though

runs

[knotty oasis]

java has time format too

[twin lagoon]

everyday we stray further from society

[haughty bear]

languages are like insanely complex

I'd rather just use icu to handle all of it, even if it's massive

[knotty oasis]

but for <my> users, the majority just wont care enough that theyd want to download a 30mb jar for it lol

[limber knot]

plurals might be different depending on the time of day a word is used in

[haughty bear]

I'd use choice formats, but how would you actually handle different plural formats based on the locale used?

like my earlier example about russian, where [numbers ending in] 1's plurals are different to 2/3/4/ different to 5/...

[untold meadow]

i...

i would read the javadocs

[knotty oasis]

even that can be solved with a select on those specific numbers. Tedious, sure, but not impossible

heck, have select that supports regex.

[haughty bear]

ah, but it's meant to apply to numbers that end in a specific number

[knotty oasis]

regex.

[haughty bear]

so 2's plural also applies to 12, 102, 1002 etc

[untold meadow]

fr man anyone else uhhh do a bit of not reading javadocs

[knotty oasis]

.*[234]:

[untold meadow]

like at all

[limber knot]

it is also different in every language

[haughty bear]

A ChoiceFormat allows you to attach a format to a range of numbers. It is generally used in a MessageFormat for handling plurals. The choice is specified with an ascending list of doubles, where each item specifies a half-open interval up to the next item:

 X matches j if and only if limit[j] <= X < limit[j+1]

can you make this apply to the last digit though?

[limber knot]

👀

[haughty bear]

exactly, I'd like to just use icu

[untold meadow]

i have to leave this channel for my sanity now

good luck everyone

[limber knot]

using a 30MB library vs. compiling your own 30MB of data

[haughty bear]

e.g. ICU has, for english, only the one plural case treated specially. all other numbers are filed under other. does choice format handle this?

[knotty oasis]

or, just downloading the meta files on demand?

why include all those currencies that nobody will even use

[haughty bear]

good luck hacking it into icu I suppose

[knotty oasis]

done worse

[haughty bear]

how big of a deal is 30mb realistically?

[knotty oasis]

my users already whine about a jar being 5mb

[haughty bear]

lol

[limber knot]

30mb is literally nothing

[knotty oasis]

and demand a "lightweight" version

30mb would kill them

[haughty bear]

hide it behind a downloader/library loader/anything

[limber knot]

just download it at runtime and they wont notice

[knotty oasis]

litterally

[twin lagoon]

in the grand scheme of things, 30mb is nothing if you use the library loader or something else

[haughty bear]

I would download it at runtime

[limber knot]

ship a 5kb big loader

[knotty oasis]

thats how I sneak in a full minecraft client jar!

[twin lagoon]

shading it into the jar however

quite annoying

slows down builds since shadowjar is slow as shit

[haughty bear]

I don't see the need to fork icu or strip out unused data or anything, if you can use library loader to load an extra 20mb of data

[twin lagoon]

spigot has a low plugin size limit too

[knotty oasis]

but you could hook the class loader, detect when some data file is loaded, and just download it then

then you dont even have to fork the project

[haughty bear]

I think icu loads them all on init

[knotty oasis]

whaaat

[haughty bear]

that's my guess anyway

[knotty oasis]

but the memory

[haughty bear]

I can run a benchmark

(if I knew how)

[knotty oasis]

dont say its filling memory with 100meg of languages

[haughty bear]

it's 20 megs

seriously 20 mb is like nothing

[knotty oasis]

parsed, it always becomes larger.

the files are obviously compressed already, otherwise the compression rate of the jar would be much more

[knotty oasis]

I know, I agree, but its not programmers you got to convince

[haughty bear]

therefore I suggest the library loader

[knotty oasis]

I have no idea why there is such a vocal minority deciding that large jar=bad

[haughty bear]

and users won't notice an extra 100mb used - if it is that large

[knotty oasis]

true.

or, only shade the essential bits, and soft-disable the rest if there is no lib loader or it fails to download it or w/e

I seriously doubt even 10% of my users would notice when those data files are absent

maybe some text is wonky in their language, nothing worse than theyre already used to in other plugins written by english-speakers

anyway, choiceformat?

is that the conditional string thing I saw before?

[haughty bear]

yes, it chooses the string based on a number passed

I've had a look into it before, I really can't figure out how you're meant to just throw a locale in and expect plurals to come out fine

[knotty oasis]

if it supports regex anything is possible, seriously

you have used regex before?

theres a whole community dedicated to making giant-ass matchers

[haughty bear]

ofc, but imagine having to use regex for every single template in a translation operation

that's like, slow

[knotty oasis]

eh, mostly copy-paste once you got the basics

or like I said, templates

[haughty bear]

slow processing

[knotty oasis]

its a sacrifice

[haughty bear]

that I don't need, because I can just not use regex

[knotty oasis]

but I got to look at who uses my plugins, and majority are english, german, french and chinese

chinese might require some complex stuff

[haughty bear]

naively speaking, I only need to check the last digit of a number

[knotty oasis]

but otherwise, I just dont at the moment need to support very exotic things

[haughty bear]

I don't know how that translates over to other languages though

[knotty oasis]

oh and dutch

ofc

[haughty bear]

regardless, I'd stick to industry standards like icu, even if it's stupidly bloated

[void void]

just get a 20mb regex, no need for a library

[knotty oasis]

hell yeahrr

just one long file of regex replace operations

who needs google translate

if I were to fork icu and make it fetch the meta files lazily, what should I call it?

lazyicu probably

[void void]

LazyIC🥷

[haughty bear]

i wonder how ICU actually works

[knotty oasis]

its also quite likely that those files have a source so I dont even have to host it myself

timezones and stuff especially

[haughty bear]

yes https://github.com/unicode-org/cldr

[knotty oasis]

boom, stays up-to-date

[haughty bear]

I'm not smart enough to figure out how cldr or icu actually work

[knotty oasis]

https://github.com/unicode-org/cldr/blob/main/common/subdivisions/fi.xml woah

@haughty bear can you see what happens if you were to delete the data directory and then try to use icu?

specifically this one

[haughty bear]

I actually don't know how to do that

[knotty oasis]

open in 7zip

[haughty bear]

I would usually use ij test runner, but I can't delete the data folder from there

[knotty oasis]

or similar unzupper on linux

jar is just a zip archive

[haughty bear]

I can delete the data folder, but I have nothing to run

[knotty oasis]

oh

ah yes, I need a special arraylist so I shade in kotlin

[haughty bear]

I set up shading to see how big ICU was. I'm not actually gonna use the shading plugin in the lib

[knotty oasis]

given how many pretty common libs it depends on, best to use the library loader if you use icu at all, yeah

even sponge configurate is in there

and ofc GeantryRef for that good ol' TypeToken

isnt this stuff part of the JDK?

[haughty bear]

don't ask me why it's shaded in there. It probably is

[knotty oasis]

well its mixed in with some icu stuff as well, so I guess its something more special

[haughty bear]

also minimized the jar doesn't even seem to work lol

[knotty oasis]

damn they really did just re-implement the entirety of java's date util lib

tho tbf, javas lib is pretty shit

[haughty bear]

here you go

[knotty oasis]

alright then it does use them

one more test, more subtle

delete just this one file

[haughty bear]

so.res?

[knotty oasis]

if its actually loading all those files into memory Id be kinda shocked

yee

then agaaaaain it might just be doing some sort of package list dir in there

[haughty bear]

works fine

note the main code is

class Main {
    companion object {
        @JvmStatic
        fun main(args: Array<String>) {
            val i18n = StringI18N(Locale.US)
            i18n.register(Locale.US,
                "test" to "Test: {num, number}")
            i18n["test", Args(
                "num" to {1234.5}
            )]
        }
    }
}

[knotty oasis]

and this file?

its the biggest in the jar

[haughty bear]

full path?

[knotty oasis]

sorry

[haughty bear]

works fine

and is now 19M as opposed to 20

[knotty oasis]

definitely might be worth pursueing a lazy loader then

[haughty bear]

if you want to go for that, sure. I might have some sort of interface around icu so someone can use a "full" or your "lazy" impl

do you know how to check how much memory a java app uses over its lifetime?

[knotty oasis]

yeah idea would be that its interchangable

theres probably a few places where it urlloads shit, only that needs to be changed to call some baked function that downloads/caches the resources in /tmp or whatever.

[haughty bear]

I'd be wary of doing something like that on main thread tho

since you can't defer it to another thread - the result needs to be returned

[knotty oasis]

yeah, its risky

buuut since this sort of loading usually occurs during parsing, so on startup of the plugin

its probably fine

[haughty bear]

I reckon if it's as simple as replacing a url load, then that sounds fine

[knotty oasis]

needs a sane timeoutI guess

[haughty bear]

the parsing would be done as the message is requested

as the actual I18N.get call is made

[knotty oasis]

theres no template file it parses up-front?

[haughty bear]

I do partially do that, with the scopes

but ICU doesn't let me template it

you can only turn a string and some args, into a formatted string - there's no option to parse what tokens it needs

[knotty oasis]

alsooo I should say, I may have all these plans to lazyicu it, but I have no time tbh

[haughty bear]

(at least none I've found)

[knotty oasis]

but Ill put it somewhere if I ever have nothing to do (for some reason)

[haughty bear]

I'm sticking with a full icu impl

[knotty oasis]

easier would be just to straight up lazy-load the entirety of icu as a library

[haughty bear]

also, you mentioned including other translations in the current translation - how do you want that to be handled?

[knotty oasis]

still want to see if I can implement a fallback system for the 'new' library loader system for older mc versions

then I can use libraries like normal, and still have it work on ancient forge hybrids

and its a stealthy means to sneak icu without people noticing the size.

[haughty bear]

item.my_wand: "My Wand ({charge}%)"

message.get_wand: "You got a new wand! [ something to replace with `item.my_wand` for arg `wand` here ]"

[knotty oasis]

{item.my_wand({charge})}?

[haughty bear]

assuming from an api standpoint you'd want something like

val wand = Wand("my_wand", 50) // Wand implements Localizable or something
i18n["message.get_wand", Args(
  "wand" to {wand})]

how should args be handled?

[knotty oasis]

wand should probably expose all the different labels/values it has

I still feel like you should then have the full intention in the localization itself

but dunno

when you pass "wand", what youre really doing is passing a dict of charge: 23, power: 12, etc

[haughty bear]

so far:

        val i18n = StringI18N(Locale.US)
        i18n.register(Locale.US,
            "item.my_wand" to """
                My Wand
                 > {charge}%
            """.trimIndent(),
            "message.get_wand" to "You got a new wand: @wand[{_}][\n]")
        i18n["message.get_wand", Args(
            "wand" to {MultiArgs(i18n.safe("item.my_wand", Args("charge" to {15})).map { {it} })} // this gets replaced with just the `wand` object, cause it's a Localizable
        )]?.forEach { println(it) }

[knotty oasis]

idk really, seems kinda verbose for code

why cant you make it so passing a wand translates to passing multiple properties instead?

[haughty bear]

that's what the comment indicates

[knotty oasis]

then you can use {charge} inside message.get_wand

[haughty bear]

it would be "wand" to {wand}

val wand = Wand("my_wand", 15) // implements Localizable
i18n["message.get_wand", Args(
            "wand" to {wand}
        )]?.forEach { println(it) }

[knotty oasis]

what I mean is, isnt it up to the Wand class to declare that it passes "charge"?

keep in mind, I barely know kotlin lol

[haughty bear]

wand would localize itself:

class Wand(val id: String, val charge: Int): Localizable<...> {
  override fun localize(i18n: I18N<List<Component>>, locale: Locale) =
    i18n.safe("item.$id", Args("charge" to {charge}))

[knotty oasis]

ahh okay

[haughty bear]

the .safe call just ensures it's non null - if it's null, it would return a component of item.my_wand

[knotty oasis]

I understand now

[haughty bear]

I still don't quite like the MultiArgs/Args syntax. I'd use lists, but that sounds type-unsafe

[knotty oasis]

and I guess if you want to pass things like Player, as you cant modify it, you got to wrap it in something that has the localize()

[haughty bear]

yes

maybe I can make an extension function-type thing, to let you localize it, but ehh

[junior moon]

can i ask something? 👉 👈

[void void]

https://dontasktoask.com/

does fedora have any advantages compared to pop os

[junior moon]

Hi, im having issues with my server.jar. It works fine at startup and most of the time.
But i use it for hosting a server with friends and i have to leave my pc started all day long, i turn off the monitors because im not at home and leave the pc started.
But when i come back after some hours and turn on the monitor the server.jar crashes and dont save the world. Its normal? Any solution?

[true canyon]

Are you sure you're just turning on a monitor, and not waking it from sleep

[junior moon]

it could be too

But if its sleeping it shouldnt be able to run a server

or its not like that?

[magic river]

Man, it's a whole thing to get an Azure quota increase when you aren't in charge of the Azure account

My normal contact is out of office because he had to go out of state to move all the stuff from one warehouse to another warehouse so apparently instead we've bumped this up to the CIO, fun

Azure is normally an "IT" thing in our company, this project is a special snowflake

[still sorrel]

ok fuck my balanced cable did not arrive after a month

time to DIY it

scuffed af

but costs 20 euros

[void void]

this doesn't look hard to make

[magic river]

DIY'ing one of those is non-trivial

[still sorrel]

normally you'd buy the ends and solder it

but I suck at soldering

[magic river]

You can make a shitty one with some resistors

No no, you can't just join the two together, you'll backfeed

[still sorrel]

?

[magic river]

I had the same thought like 6 months ago in here, went on a whole journey

[still sorrel]

if I wire everything up properly it should work, right?

[void void]

you need to find out how to wire 3.5mm jacks first

because shit is not as simple as you might think

[still sorrel]

why would it not be easy

[magic river]

Is this a splitter or a mixer?

[void void]

so this picture shows me there is polarization

if there actually is such, you can avoid backfeed by using diodes

[magic river]

For a splitter I think you can just get away with a 10k resistor?

Or potentially with just nothing but you risk breaking things?

[still sorrel]

from left to right its ground, right, left

[magic river]

Oh, you're breaking out the left and right channels

[still sorrel]

yeah

need 4.4mm to dual 3.5mm

using right and left depending which side of the dual 3.5 it is as - or +

[magic river]

Are your outputs stereo?

If so this gets complicated again

[still sorrel]

I will have stereo

[void void]

ok shit is real

[magic river]

Like if you have two stereo speakers with a headphone jack on them and want to send only left to one and only right to the other, the straightforward way to do that will only turn on half the speakers in each one

[still sorrel]

I mean I should not need ground for the 3.5mm end

my headphones accept balanced input

[void void]

never did grounding in my entire life of doing electrical stuff

even high voltage

[magic river]

If you don't do proper grounding on audio stuff you get noise

[still sorrel]

you dont need grounding with balanced

[void void]

while grounding is something good sometimes its really bad

[still sorrel]

do you even know how balanced works

[true canyon]

Sleep means it stops doing things and pauses. Make sure your settings aren't causing that

[still sorrel]

Balanced audio works on the principle that two identical signals which are opposite polarities (often erroneously called "out of phase") will cancel each other out. The cables used in such systems are designed to carry two versions of the signal and manipulate the polarities of these signals to eliminate noise.

[vernal moth]

Why did I never listen to lex Friedman's podcasts before? Been consuming one per day for the past days, today was Jim Keller, they are really amazing

[still sorrel]

I mean idk why I also have ground in there

should get a different cable tbh

[magic river]

You started with balanced audio but you're breaking it out, no?

[still sorrel]

I start with balanced stereo

[magic river]

I dunno, you probably know more about audio than I do

I just learned in February (I'm time blind, thought it was longer) that splitters and mixers are way more complicated than I thought

Even if you don't want to do any kind of level adjustment

[still sorrel]

I mean nothing is being split

I just wire up left to l- and l+ and right to r+ and r-

[magic river]

Yeah, so long as what you're feeding it to is okay with a mono input that seems fine

[still sorrel]

you feed stereo into it

there are left and right channels

[magic river]

Oh, I guess I'm looking at this backwards

[still sorrel]

4.4mm goes into the amp

[magic river]

I thought audio was coming out of this plug, not going in to it

[wet storm]

Mini, as a Spring user, have you ever looked at/tried/used Spring WebFlux and reactive programming for backend things in general? If yes, what do you think about it?

[still sorrel]

bigger amps have 5 pin xlr

but smaller amps have 4.4mm

same idea, different connection

[magic river]

Spring WebFlux is basically the NIO version of Spring, no?

Instead of thread-per-connection you do non-blocking streams

[wet storm]

yes, it uses netty instead of tomcat and other things, but it also contains rich reactive API around RxJava and Project Reactor

[magic river]

I suspect Project Loom is about to mess up that whole ecosystem

[wet storm]

yeah, it will

[true canyon]

All I know about audio is ground loops suck

[magic river]

Like, event streams still have the benefit of somewhat automatic backpressure and such but they'll probably go back to thread-per-connection

It just won't be real threads

[worn ember]

We fried someone's lip from a bad ground loop lmao. It wasn't connected properly and the static burned her lip when she touched the mic lol

[wet storm]

but, reactive programming I think will stay, but imo they will rework it all to a new virtual threads ecosystem in impl details, tbh I think it will adapt to the project loom rather than it will mess up it all

[magic river]

I wonder if Project Loom is going to make the old servlet API just scale 100x better

Or if they're going to have to rework things still

Like, presumably if they do it right you could still use JDBC and all

They already have the old school Java 1.1 networking API wired up so it uses NIO under the hood when using virtual threads

And that scales to millions of connections

The only things I can find about servlets and loom are from 2020 when loom didn't handle synchronized blocks yet and the benchmarks were set up to get the same requests per second out of it, the goal was to measure the memory and CPU usage to hit a certain level of performance rather than finding their limits

[wet storm]

I am confused, what is Kafka and when I should use it? Like, I know that it is a thread messaging library based on batches and many other things, but when I look into its docs I feel like reading rocket science book, I know that people compare kafka with lmax disruptor library which I know pretty well, because they both thread messaging libs but have a bit different approaches. But kafka feels like something large which you should use only for large systems...

[junior moon]

its that normal? A jar file crashing when pc wakes up from sleeping?

[magic river]

JVM and/or something in the server or a plugin might not react well to a sudden time change

Or something in the suspend/resume cycle corrupts memory

[crystal lily]

To download old versions of Paper, click here ➡️ papermc.io/legacy ⬅️ and fill out the questions. Note that old versions are completely unsupported and contain numerous bugs/exploits.

[vernal moth]

Generally don't see the why

Like I feel that just makes my code more complex and I don't see the gains

[vernal moth]

Kafka sucks, rabbit is waaaay nicer as a message queue

[limber knot]

rabbit also support mqtt 👀

[magic river]

MQTT is kind of garbage

We use it a bunch at work, it's basically the simplest thing you can make and call a pubsub message queue

Except it's not, that would be ZeroMQ, MQTT both doesn't do much and has a lot of warts due to legacy

[limber knot]

right tool for the task and whatnot ¯_(ツ)_/¯

as long as you can publish and subscribe it's a pubsub

[vernal moth]

We have a Kafka cluster at work now and do the integration architects want to solve everything with it now

And am like, no, fuck off, I use the right tool for the job, and I decide what's right for my job

Am not over engineering a simple rest service

[wet storm]

There is a bunch of web, (or enterprise or whatever are them?) things which I know a name and maybe watched some speaker at some java/scala conference talking about it, but haven't actually ever touched, like apache camel, zookeeper, apache spark, akka actors, ZIO, ZeroMQ and all other ocean of despair, I should prob don't care about em until I meet them, right?

[vernal moth]

Zookeeper I didn't fully understand, but you need it to run Kafka

Akka and zio is stupid scala stuff, am burned on that from sponge's ore

Generally, I read one or two things about stuff like that, just so that I know that that tool exists so that if I have a job I know that I could try that tool

But mostly, when I have a problem, I just google to see how other people have solved it and try out what I like

[wet storm]

I think Imma write some web thing in Scala someday, cuz why I've learnt it if I used it only for one stupid project, but I feel like it is forbidden to use cuz many people suffered from it (including you...)

[wide chasm]

Scala is not a language I'd personally ever pick, but it's an interesting language with interesting concepts, so there's definitely merit in using it.

[magic river]

TIL people still use coldfusion (or at least CFML)

Someone messing with Project Loom and Lucee (CFML for Java) way saying they get like 175,000 requests per second by making it use virtual threads, they didn't give any before numbers but I've never heard of a thread-per-connection Java server getting numbers anywhere close to that

More like 10,000 per second

When I run it more times, I get results showing the virtual threads with all my other optimizations have made Lucee threading anywhere from 400% to 3500% faster.

[vernal moth]

Meanwhile am happy if I get 50000 request per day

[magic river]

Their virtual thread numbers were 15,000 to 175,000 requests per second depending on how many concurrent requests they were hitting it with so that means with native threads it was probably ~5,000 requests per second

[vernal moth]

It's like, why should I care about any of this if I am so many orders of magnitude lower in demand

[magic river]

Ah, later they give benchmark numbers for stock lucee, 10,000 concurrent connections failed entirely, same with 5,000

They got 1,880 RPS with 2000 concurrent and 30,000 RPS with 10 concurrent

30,000 is still crazy for a thread-per-connection model

Then again I suppose the C10K problem was 20 years ago, we have much beefier CPUs, lots more RAM, and better kernels

[vernal moth]

I will be only profiting from loom if undertow chooses to adopt it without changing API, lol

Or well, spring can adopt a new undertow API but I don't wanna touch my shit

Sadly it seems loom will not be ready for spring 6, which seems to be quite a major release

Spring 6 seems to be focused on answering quarkus instead

[wet storm]

wait. how. I feel like Spring 5 was released yesterday

[vernal moth]

This year is the first without a new major I think

[magic river]

?

[wet storm]

https://tenor.com/view/pizza-rat-hungry-steal-gif-17260113

[vernal moth]

Spring normally releases anually, right?

[magic river]

• 1.0 - 2004
• 2.0 - 2006
• 3.0 - 2009
• 4.0 - 2013
• 5.0 - 2017

[vernal moth]

Oh lol

Where did I read this shit then

[magic river]

I guess someone tried to make a wiki page for this exploit and shoving this sentence on the bottom of the spring page was the compromise

[vernal moth]

Lol

[warm anchor]

@void void we need this as sticker

[void void]

I have a better rat somewhere, one sec

[warm anchor]

I will be eagerly waiting here

[wet storm]

same

[void void]

can't remember where I got it from

[wet storm]

wtf monster

[full rune]

[vernal moth]

Did anybody actually care about spring 4shell?

[warm anchor]

@static badge rate the rat

[vernal moth]

Like, who deploys spring as a war?

[magic river]

Is that an albino possum someone is trying to make look like a rat?

[static badge]

not a rat

[warm anchor]

I know I can always trust leaf for my rat knowledge

[magic river]

People who don't use Spring Boot and have been working on the same project since 2008 😄

[warm anchor]

I am afraid your entry has been disqualified for not being a rat @void void

[vernal moth]

zzZZZzzzZzzZ

I wrote an app in 2018 that I already consider legacy and will majorly refactor later this year, lol

[void void]

I'll continue my search for a bigger, realer rat then...

[magic river]

Last place I worked had a Spring app uses XML configuration for wiring up the DI and such, deployed on an IBM WebSphere server

I worked there in 2017 so...

[vernal moth]

Heh I deployed spring to websphere before

Luckily we migrated that to boot years ago

Was the first spring Project at work and they required people to use websphere back then

Cause hur dur enterprise

[magic river]

Yeah but if you don't use WebSphere you can't blame IBM for all your perf issues and pay them 3x what your dev team costs for consulting to make it suck slightly less by changing some config knobs

[vernal moth]

Nowadays you have to justify using jboss over spring at work

[spare venture]

here’s a dead rat that made its way into my college house a few years ago

[vernal moth]

I still can't believe it takes us over half a decade now to get off of db2

[void void]

ew, only alive rats are allowed I'm afraid

[magic river]

Log4Shell actually does have its own wiki page, btw 😄

So I guess it's a big one up there with heartbleed and spectre

[spare venture]

ew is a good reaction

[vernal moth]

Like, we pay per CPU cycle, vs postgres on Linux which is basically free, what bigger business case do you need?!

[spare venture]

we have a dog and cat channel, where is the rat channel?

[wet storm]

rumor falsely spread by server members.

[vernal moth]

That was justified tho, especially since log4j is fucking everywhere and idiot companies like Cisco took weeks to even say if I product is affected

[magic river]

According to Wiz and EY, the vulnerability affected 93% of enterprise cloud environments.

Exploiting it to do anything useful required knowledge of the environment it was running in and finding a ROP chain in that environment

[vernal moth]

My ciso was furious, a security company that can't react to a major exploit in weeks

[magic river]

I don't know if anyone ever actually found one for Minecraft, I know some people thought they were close so it's probably possible

[true canyon]

Eaten by the seagull channel?

[vernal moth]

On old mc versions it was easy cause old java

[magic river]

Leaking information from it was trivial though which is usually just as bad as arbitrary code execution

[wet storm]

a rat or a seagull, that's the question.

[warm anchor]

Back in the day we would never waste food like that

[magic river]

And by old MC versions you mean every MC version from 1.7 to 1.16? 😄

[lavish compass]

s&p 500 looking 🔥

[spare venture]

what the fuck

back in what day??

[warm anchor]

Barty never eat rat before??

[spare venture]

no i’m not a seagull

[warm anchor]

😎

[wet storm]

imagine a shawarma made out of rats 💀

[magic river]

S&P 500 is still higher than it was 18 months ago but it's looking pretty bad lately

[warm anchor]

It should be fine. Can’t lose money if you don’t have money to begin with

[magic river]

We've been due for bear market for a while though

Other than a panic when covid started it's just been nonstop climbing since 2009 and we've been in silly territory for a few years

Fed is in a bit of a panic trying to get interest rates up fast enough to stop inflation but not so fast they collapse the economy, they're in a rough spot since lowering interest rates is their lever to help with a down economy but they're already too low so don't have anywhere to go

[lavish compass]

lookin sick

[magic river]

That's why everyone is talking about stagflation again

If the economy starts tanking while interest rates are still low stagflation seems likely

Everyone saying to sell is probably going to cause a lot of people to catch the falling knife trying to spot the bottom

That’s because high inflation and low unemployment are both strong predictors of future recessions. In fact, since the 1950s, every time inflation has exceeded 4% and unemployment has been below 5%, the U.S. economy has gone into a recession within two years.

Today, inflation is at 8.5% and unemployment is at 3.6% – suggesting a recession will be very hard to avert.

https://theconversation.com/fed-hopes-for-soft-landing-for-the-us-economy-but-history-suggests-it-wont-be-able-to-prevent-a-recession-182270

[warm anchor]

It’s ok. We will just print more money

[twin lagoon]

buy the dip

[warm anchor]

Michale with his filthy Minecraft block money

[charred sleet]

no rats

cant stand the tings

[foggy silo]

Hi noah 😍

[void void]

Hey Owen

[foggy silo]

(Favorite Dutch)

[magic river]

Oh hey nasdaq is officially in a bear market, down 26% since the start of the year

[spare venture]

yeah i mean it’s probably just gonna keep on going down, but i know as soon as i sell anything it’ll start going back up

[magic river]

EU seems to be tanking even harder, Euro is expected to be 1:1 with USD soon

It's already down to $1.06 so not far to go

Last time I was in Europe I think it was more like $1.50

[limber knot]

pretty sure it has bee 1.20 for a while before the recent issues

*been

[magic river]

Last time I was in Europe was 2011 so...

[spare venture]

past two pullbacks have been ~40% bottoms from the previous peak, with it taking 6-7 years to recover

[magic river]

Although that was Cambridge so I don't think that counts

[spare venture]

currently only down 13% from previous peak

[twin lagoon]

if the euro and usd becomes 1:1 i'll be so happy

means usd finally becomes worth something

paypal conversion fees are bad enough already

[limber knot]

yeah, hasn't been 1.50 for 10 years now lol

https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=USD&view=10Y

[magic river]

I was there like once a year for a few years but haven't been in quite a while

That flight sucks

[spare venture]

where to where?

[magic river]

Iowa to anywhere in UK or Europe

[spare venture]

oh that sounds like a long flight

[wet storm]

I love actix and rust... prob I used only bad solutions like weblux in the past, but... in this screenshot I defined plain localhost:8080/blogs to send one content, but send other content if some query exist (for example ?blog=something) I plan to use /blogs for a main page where people search for them, and /blogs?blog=blog-name for some specific blog page, is this a good practice or it is a better to use something like /blogs/blog-name?

[magic river]

I don't think it matters, might for SEO or something, but people generally consider /blogs/blog-name to look better, more professional, etc

People think ? is ugly 😄

actix uses async/await now? That seems like it goes against the actor model that was the point of the whole thing at the start

[wet storm]

yeah, no actors even in documentation... https://actix.rs/docs/

[magic river]

The limit of only 12 query string arguments seems oddly arbitrary considering I don't see any proc macro usage here

I thought maybe it was to keep the compile times down or not go over the type resolver depth limit in the compiler or something but, uh, what?

Maybe they meant they have 12 different things that implement FromRequest (ignoring the wrappers like Either)

That seems to almost match up, depending on how you count them

[magic river]

That's the bit I was talking about

Why 12?

[wet storm]

also sounds weird for me... When I first read it I was really confused

[magic river]

The extractors work even without the annotation so I don't think that annotation is doing any proc macro stuff that would get more expensive with the number of arguments

Their request routing example on the main page shows manually wiring up a route to a function and that function can still use web::Path<String>

[wet storm]

Actix web looks similar to spring webflux imo, (or every web framework is similar to each other and I am just new for them?) like I see many similar traits. (Prob weblux example is cringy...)

[magic river]

Yeah you're basically just showing off a bunch of express clones 😛

Or clones of whoever express copied it from

Flask maybe?

https://twitter.com/LucyDavinhart/status/1523623782023598080

Lucy Davinhart 🍓 (@LucyDavinhart)

New emoji just dropped on work slack

Likes

367

Twitter · May 9, 2022, 11:19 AM

[potent wedge]

flask is godly, flask will allways prevail, flask is used by netflix.

[magic river]

https://0pointer.net/blog/fitting-everything-together.html

TLDR: Hermetic /usr/ is awesome; let's popularize image-based OSes with modernized security properties built around immutability, SecureBoot, TPM2, adaptability, auto-updating, factory reset, uniformity – built from traditional distribution packages, but deployed via images.

TIL there is no protection or validation of the initrd so you can take an "encrypted" system, modify the initramfs, and make it capture and/or send the full disk encryption password next time someone boots the system and has a network connection

Dunno why I put encrypted in scare quotes. It's encrypted and you have SecureBoot to validate the kernel but the piece in between is wide open so it's just security theater

[golden gust]

Yea, I think that's part of the joy and where apple kinda wins here with their T2 chip which deals with disk encryption, etc

or, well, ex T2

[magic river]

His solution is to make the kernel also be the bootloader and have one UEFI binary that is the kernel, initrd, command line, boot splash, etc

And then SecureBoot verifies that binary so you're good

command line as in the kernel boot flags, not a shell or something

[golden gust]

ofc, "magical secure black box" is often a sign that it's probs not as secure as one would hope long term

[magic river]

https://systemd.io/BOOT_LOADER_SPECIFICATION/#type-2-efi-unified-kernel-images

Oh it's not the bootloader, you can still have one of those

But the bootloader wouldn't have to know how to boot Linux, only how to chainload UEFI binaries

systemd-boot does that, conveniently enough 😄

Other systemd bits let that kernel find the /usr/ partition to mount via GPT partition labels and hashes from dm-verity so you don't have to modify the /usr/ image or the kernel depending on what kind of disk(s) you're using

[junior moon]

I keep getting the "Cant keep up" message every time
Im hosting a server with friends (6gb dedicated for server) 5 very light mods and the xaeros mod that i dont know if its so heavy.
I also play in the server with the same pc, but the server is using 12% of my cpu and the game another 10% (it doesnt seem to be overloaded)
My CPU: Ryzen 5 2600
16GB RAM
Server in SSD

[spare venture]

is the server actually lagging

[junior moon]

yeah

[brave mountain]

hey do you know C#?

[spare venture]

use #paper-help and take a timings report

[junior moon]

thank you

[magic river]

Huh, apparently BMW swapped some chips in their infotainment system due to shortages and don't have all the features on the new set up

Specifically Android Auto and CarPlay aren't available

But they claim they can provide them via OTA later so it sounds like the hardware is capable they just didn't have the software ported and/or certified in time

[brave mountain]

BMW make some of the more high quality cars
https://youtu.be/3In3u2QpSUE

[kind agate]

hey

is there a way to query a bunch of usernames and see if they have no name changes?

[floral mesa]

The only issue to that would be driver support, not only would you need to rebuild a giant monolithic binary, you also need to sign it. It defeats the purpose of having an initrd. you might as well just build the modules into the kernel and boot to rootfs

[vernal moth]

Flashbacks to when BMW had an actual good EV department and produced a rather nice car for the time, but then the whole engineering team quit cause they didn't feel like management gave them the attention they deserve (you know, considering it's the only way forward and all)

[magic river]

What do you mean driver support? All the drivers are a part of the kernel already

A SecureBoot kernel will only load signed modules though, true

[floral mesa]

Initrd contains modules also, this helps the kernel loads what is needed before it load the rootfs

Thats the purpose of initrd

[magic river]

Ok?

dracut already supports this, btw

You can make dracut generate a UEFI binary that is the kernel and initrd

[floral mesa]

Signed for secureboot?

[magic river]

I don't know if it'll sign it, probably?

Signing for SecureBoot is annoying, only Microsoft can do it unless you jump through some hoops

[floral mesa]

Well the only exception id see if someone using their own ca for it

[magic river]

But initrds aren't specialized for a system anyway, distros make generic ones that'll boot just about anything

So you only have to care about signing if you want to build your own kernel or distro

Otherwise this method of building an OS basically turns it in to Android 😛

You get a boot partition and an A partition with only /usr/ on it

On first boot it creates the B partition, swap, root, and home partitions

Then systemd-tmpfiles and such produce anything that needs to be in /etc or /var if they don't exist

[floral mesa]

Eh, honestly, most immutable stuff ive seen is usually hacky. Android gets away with it largely since you cant even touch that part of the system

[magic river]

You don't modify the /usr, although if you control the signing keys you can make extensions for it that will be overlayfs mounted on it

Upgrades write to B and write a new kernel to the boot partition then on next boot systemd-boot automatically picks the latest kernel which also knows how to find its /usr and now that one is the A partition

I ended up bailing on Fedora Silverblue because we just aren't there yet but I like the idea of this

This would make it possible to solve some of the problems Silverblue had too

Anyway, it's still true that the initrd isn't a part of the chain of trust on most setups so full disk encryption is just a lie we tell ourselves

[floral mesa]

Its a neat concept, but one of the major hurdles has been devs and admins throwing their shit everywhere. Even though there is some unity in how linux fhs is structured, its usually up to the package manager on what they want to do, or software developer

[magic river]

This system still relies on rpm/dpkg to build the images

So would rely on packagers to use systemd-tmpfiles to handle putting files outside of /usr wherever they're needed

Ideally programs would also just generate those files with sane defaults if they don't exist but until then distros can patch it with a standard tool

I don't think I'd want to use this setup for mostly the same reasons I gave up on Silverblue but I think this one is closer and the design seems sound, we just need the ecosystem to adapt to it

[floral mesa]

Eh, i dont know on that. /usr is a great place to put things, plus moving what should be ro out of /etc would be great

[magic river]

?

[floral mesa]

Read only configs like os-release and whatnot

[magic river]

Oh, right

[golden gust]

I mean, that would sound like it's not really a config and thus probs shouldn't be in /etc anyways

[magic river]

Well the options are to patch the software that uses that stuff to put it in /usr (yeah right), patch them to generate those files in /etc if they don't exist (maybe?), or use systemd-tmpfiles to put them in /etc if they don't exist

os-release in particular is probably a bad example since I bet lots of things read that file directly

[golden gust]

part of the fun is that theres never really been a "dump system info here" type folder

[floral mesa]

Well its in the correct directory, but linux just hasnt been immutable if taken into consideration of traditional linux distros

[golden gust]

Not really in the right directory

[floral mesa]

Even android is bastardized to get it to that state

[golden gust]

Just, "right directory" never existed, and so it was either some rando file in /usr or /etc

[magic river]

Oh yeah, and systemd-nspawn could boot these OS images too so you can use the same infrastructure for making system images and container images

Assuming you want your container to have an init system and such

"boot"

[golden gust]

I mean, I can't really see this taking off outside of the enterprise

The biggest argument for this type of stuff is akin to what nix does

[magic river]

Lennart calls it GnomeBook 😄

ChromeBook but GNOME desktop

[golden gust]

lol

[floral mesa]

Id love to see something like what macos does for app management, but that isnt going to happen

[golden gust]

I think what nix has done is damned bloody amazing, but, it's far from a prime-time solution

[magic river]

His goal is to make something as secure and maintenance free as ChromeOS

[golden gust]

"what macos does for app management" ?

I mean, I have a mac, the app store is literally one of the most stupid/annoying things about it

[magic river]

Oh yeah, factory reset is just setting an EFI variable and rebooting, the same tool that generates all the extra partitions on first boot also deletes and regenerates them when that variable is set

[floral mesa]

Oh no, not store wise, arent macos packages technically just static images?

[magic river]

macOS does AppImage, more or less

flatpak is a better model

[golden gust]

I mean, you have an app file which generally is self contained outside of the OS bundled stuff

it probs wastes a good chunk of space but installing is as easy as just having a "blessed" folder

[floral mesa]

Flatpak has been nice so far, though i think the ability to have everything packaged into a image is not bad

[golden gust]

packing everything into images is really just a hack around the platforms fragmentation issues

[magic river]

flatpak lets you share components still and has a sandbox and security model

AppImage is just distribution, it doesn't handle any of that

[golden gust]

I mean, don't they just use the same "layered" stuff that docker, etc, uses?

[floral mesa]

Similar concept, just remove the daemon and some abstraction

[golden gust]

I mean, it makes a lot of sense as it deals with many stupid issues within the linux ecosystem, but, I partially feel that it's just yet another thing in the environment to have to mess with maintaining, etc

Ubuntu is still tryna push their own platform

[floral mesa]

Snap tries to do everything, flatpak is geared towards gui apps

Ununtu is so hell bent on it that it has been trying to force users to use snap, remove or shim deb files like firefox

[magic river]

AppImage is a FUSE mount, flatpak is... I forget

flatpak is one FUSE mount I think, AppImage is one per app

snap is a bunch of mounts too

[floral mesa]

If i wanted containerized apps, id use docker or podman, not snap

[untold meadow]

they serve completely different purposes and are not really comparable products

[peak ginkgo]

firefox in the ubuntu repos is a snap thing

https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox

[tired fog]

what DOES macos do for app management

[tired fog]

are they contained? theyre just glorified folders like how a jar is just a zip imo

[wet storm]

(I was sleeping) no...

[golden gust]

Which contains all of the libraries to run outside of the OSes interfaces

[golden gust]

It's 11am, I've been up for 11 hours, and I just wanna die

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACbVhgtx9I

[brave mountain]

But anyway I have something you could take a look at, can nce is a block game.

[novel horizon]

huh

really they did include that? it wasn't there before

(warning about self harm etc)

but i guess 🤷‍♂️

[ashen cliff]

I mean, the whole song is about a muffin wanting to die...

[novel horizon]

yeah

it's whatever, it wasn't there before, but I understand it ^^

[scarlet axle]

muffin song is too pro it got a suislide prevention line attached to it

[ashen cliff]

Oh cool. New GPU.

[spare venture]

can’t afford the past 2 generations

with the stock market and bitcoin crashing it may be possible to buy one soon though

of course my stocks drop more than a rtx 3090 price every day

[limber knot]

time to buy more stocks/crypto

[smoky inlet]

Hi

[buoyant fractal]

Am I the only one that's sad about how little there is going on on the forums? I think it has so much potential

[worthy geode]

forums are kinda 2012 imo, idk. Discord is just way more convenient for a lot of things

[twin lagoon]

hard to get users to use forums when you have an easier more accessible platform with faster communication

[ashen cliff]

Forms are better for searchability tho.

[twin lagoon]

they are

[worthy geode]

but tbh everytime I post something in #paper-dev and it just gets lost in new messages I also wish for more forum use

[ashen cliff]

And if Mark won't tell me how to fix a Linux bug he posted about in 2002, I'll find him somewhere.

[little frost]

maybe with hangar(tm)

[warm anchor]

Good old time of actually put in thoughts and compose a proper reply

And spending hours making a perfect reply to why someone is wrong

[jagged egret]

ok so if I have a raspberry pi plugged into my laptop's ethernet jack (running Win10) and I can't ping my windows 10 computer does anyone know why that would be the case

[ashen cliff]

It probably doesn't have an IP set?

[jagged egret]

It does

I can ping my raspberry pi from my laptop just fine, but the other way around doesn't work

Welp, turns out windows is dum as hek and the firewall blocks pings by default

[muted storm]

lmao that's new

[jagged egret]

@muted storm long time no see

[muted storm]

[warm anchor]

@twin lagoon @lavish compass

[twin lagoon]

holy shit great minds think alike

that was instant

[warm anchor]

Lmao

[lavish compass]

wow I'm not in that discord

:noweeb:

[twin lagoon]

cubxity WHEn am i getting an answer from you

[warm anchor]

TRUE

pls answer mcichael

[lavish compass]

the management is NOT answering me

Please respond within Friday

[warm anchor]

Tell leaf. He wouldn’t let me repurpose Tuinity discord for emoji

[lavish compass]

@static badge do it .

[twin lagoon]

@static badge

french canadian furry

[static badge]

next person to ping me gets fucking sent to the shadow realm

[twin lagoon]

@static badge

[static badge]

@quasi valley you know what to do

[magic river]

This isn't 90s Saturday morning cartoons, you can say they're going to die

[warm anchor]

By shadow realm leaf means his bathroom

[still sorrel]

https://images-ext-2.discordapp.net/external/gQhSHqyyocD_Ufitz-5Txl8ZK9-J93Wi4YhkQbFl4qs/%3Fwidth%3D1196%26height%3D897/https/media.discordapp.net/attachments/961374773923971093/973608101414600714/20220510_173022.jpg

cable arrived

[magic river]

I'm still trying to think about how you would make splitting left and right work when you're sending them to stereo sinks

I know that wasn't your problem but it came up when I was looking

[still sorrel]

bro

4.4mm has 5 pins

2 for left, 2 for right

and ground which is obsolete

you just wire up left to left

and right to right

[magic river]

I don't think that does what I'm talking about

[vernal moth]

Wooo, am finally collecting high scores again

[magic river]

Basically you need to take the left channel and rotate it 180 degrees to make it also be the right channel for that stereo sink

[magic river]

Otherwise only one of the two speakers in your shitty little portable speaker will work

[still sorrel]

they didnt send the 2nd female 3.5 connection box

it will arrive tomorrow

[magic river]

Again, this has nothing to do with your setup

I'm talking about a hypothetical

I have two bluetooth speakers that also take 3.5 input, I want to use one as a left and one as a right

[coarse lily]

Hypothetically, what if we had pancakes?

[magic river]

If I just do a naive split the left would only turn on its left speaker and the right would only turn on its right speaker, afaik

[still sorrel]

is your bluetooth speaker mono?

[magic river]

No

[still sorrel]

an individual bluetooth speaker

I mean

cant you use cables with 2 pins

[magic river]

I have one source and two stereo sinks

[still sorrel]

hm actually

[magic river]

I don't want both of them to do stereo sound though, I want one to be my left speaker and one to be my right

If I split my source I'll get two mono feeds

[coarse lily]

Yeah it’s probably not smart enough to have both speakers play the single channel input if you only send one channel.

[magic river]

I need to make those stereo feeds but only left and only right

[still sorrel]

just wire both left and right to one termination on your input

[magic river]

I'm starting to wonder if I need to draw a picture, I don't think you understand still

I don't want to send the right channel to the left speakers

I want to make that left channel also be a right channel for those speakers

So they both put out sound

[coarse lily]

You could probably do some funky wiring so you send left to both channels on one, and right on both channels on the other.

But that sounds like a mess.

[still sorrel]

source - 3.5mm in:
left
right
ground

left - 3.5mm out:
left to source right
right to source right
ground to source ground

right - 3.5mm out:
left to source left
right to source left
ground to source ground```

[magic river]

All I have is 3.5mm jacks

[still sorrel]

cant you do it like this

[coarse lily]

Yeah you’d need to wire some custom shit

You could try it, though. You never know - maybe it’s wired smart enough to just play one channel on both drivers.

[magic river]

If you put the left source in the left and right of a 3.5mm won't that mess up?

I thought they needed to be out of phase

[still sorrel]

idk

cant test it

[coarse lily]

They do

[magic river]

These aren't real, it's a hypothetical based on an unanswered question I saw when googling his set up

[coarse lily]

Yeah, it’s an interesting problem

[magic river]

So let's assume they aren't smart enough to put a mono source to both speakers

[coarse lily]

I think if they aren’t smart then you’re probably just screwed

Because like you said they’d need to be out of phase.

So you’d need to rewire the drivers or some circuitry to make it work, I think.

I’ve never had to mess with that before. All the drivers I work with are generally mono and side-agnostic.

So you just send whatever to wherever.

[magic river]

Huh

This is apparently not just a simple "toss a couple resistors" in thing

Either that or no one cares enough to post online how to do it

Whatever your speakers that work sanely with a mono input are doing, that's what I need to do 😛

But no one seems to know or talk about how that's done

Maybe it's done via some kind of DSP

[coarse lily]

Yeah the setup I’m talking about is larger than a desk speaker.

[magic river]

Probably some kind of software thing then, yeah

AC got added? Nice

[foggy silo]

I mean, there is a paper twitter ik gets some updates every so often

[magic river]

Now you just need to get @warm anchor to put it in paper-chan's optimization guide

[rare python]

you just proved my point lol

[magic river]

I pay zero attention to Paper things though 😛

[foggy silo]

I mean it’s just very easy to look at the paper GitHub

[rare python]

There is no central location to find when minor but possibly interesting things get added.

[foggy silo]

And read the commits

[warm anchor]

Already did 2 minutes after the commit 😉

[magic river]

I just randomly look at stuff

[crystal lily]

Community contributed configuration guide for Paper: https://eternity.community/index.php/paper-optimization/

[foggy silo]

Most commits will explain what is added

[magic river]

Wait what happened to the pullout?

[rare python]

Yes but if you don't constantly check you don't notice

[warm anchor]

😉

[magic river]

They killed paper-chan

[foggy silo]

I mean then you’d be constantly checking this channel made to prevent you from constantly checking the GitHub.

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[warm anchor]

I follow a few PR so I get notified when it’s pulled in

coz you know sometimes it take months

[rare python]

Plus with the github things getting added get burried among discussion about what to add

I had set it to watch to the repository but I had to stop because my emails just became stuff like this constantly.

[warm anchor]

The follow feature is nice but it gets spammy if people start a discussion under lol

[foggy silo]

Yeah so I just prefer to stalk the GitHub channel

[rare python]

All I am saying is that it would be nice to have a channel were a message is sent whenever something is added

[vernal moth]

I just follow but dont get emails

so I check the notifications on github regularly

[worn ember]

Years

[warm anchor]

Lol

Hi ded

[worn ember]

Hai

[warm anchor]

@ornate kernel not the place. Read the rule.

[ornate kernel]

im read rules bro. ITS NOT HIRING DEVELOPERS

[warm anchor]

[void void]

hello

[vernal moth]

o/

[void void]

so is paperMinecraft a download

[vernal moth]

paper is a replacement for the vanilla minecraft server

you can download it from our website

[void void]

oh ok

[potent wedge]

But is it a replacement if it piggybacks off what it's supposed to be replacing?

[wide chasm]

Yes

[upbeat tartan]

Hey I have question is there a way to make it so items can automatically respawn in a chest at a set time or nah

[vernal moth]

sure, you can write code for that

[magic river]

You can do that with datapacks via loottables

Or with a plugin

[foggy veldt]

There is something about this screenshot that is aesthetically pleasing

[magic river]

Not via loottables with a plugin, you have to do it manually

[wraith trail]

this seems like a really good idea, I've brought it up. recently aurora has started doing something sorta like this via twitter, although something more in-depth might be good

[rare python]

Oh nice

[silent grotto]

hola ?

[foggy veldt]

What’s ac btw? Anti cheat?

[silent grotto]

xd

[foggy veldt]

Yo

[silent grotto]

podes hablar ?

necesito ayuda 😭

[foggy veldt]

No but I know ñ

[silent grotto]

😠

kakaka

español ?

[foggy veldt]

I thought that was a good thing D:

[silent grotto]

jajajja

no

😄

[foggy veldt]

Well no I don’t know Spanish, have a nice day tho :D

[silent grotto]

👍

[rare python]

Alternate Current. A Pull Request was recently merged which added Alternate Current which is an alternate redstone implementation which is many times faster then the vanilla one, while still being mostly (or completely, not sure) compatible. See https://github.com/PaperMC/Paper/pull/7701.

[wet storm]

I love how 1.12.2 forge: "dat minecarft ding will implement our impl, any questions?"

bukkit avoiding any nms inheritance changes and making "Craft" things with "handle": 🔪

[high mirage]

Different design philosophies

In a forge mod, you're supposed to interact with raw Minecraft objects

In a bukkit plugin, you really aren't

[wet storm]

In this case imo doesn't really matter, bukkit api from "some alternative universe" could be changing inheritance and making nms classes directly implement its API classes and don't really care about conversions and additional "Craft" layer which maps api interfaces to actual nms logic, but in this case its API would be more dependent on nms and there would be many diff changes to nms classes, so no...

[potent wedge]

Wait has there been a popular-ish game made in C/C++ without a game engine? I just realized all the games that don't have a game engine I play are in java

Roblox doesn't count as it is the game engine (and the only C parts it has it's just for the luau thing)

[lament patio]

I guess the VVVVVV C++ port? https://github.com/TerryCavanagh/VVVVVV/tree/master/desktop_version

[worthy geode]

MMORPGs. there aren't really engines for that kind of stuff.

[magic river]

Minecraft has an engine, it's just not clean cleanly separated from the rest

You could imagine it's engine to be what you'd get if you removed all worldgen, entity types, block types, items, advancements, etc

Usually only indie games are like this because everyone else will start by picking an engine or, even if they're making their own, have a clearer separation between engine and game

[void void]

ur an engine

[magic river]

When you're just one guy screwing around making an infiniminer clone you don't need to worry about proper design

[wet storm]

btw, does mojang do separation of server and client using obfuscator?

[worthy geode]

some games also have a decent amount of code written directly in assembly, at least GW2 has quite a lot of assembly for math things

[brave mountain]

If baremetal
lvm or not?
ext4 vs btrfs

[floral mesa]

btrfs still has quite a ways to go, but on paper is much better than ext4 alone

mainly since it focuses on being a raid & volume manager, and filesystem rolled into one

[void void]

on paper

[potent wedge]

That's like saying "I made a python module that has a function that will print 'Hello World!' this must be s game engine."

[magic river]

Not... really?

Like, Minecraft has, of a sort, a networking system and a physics system and a particle system and etc

[wet storm]

I think minecraft's engine is velocity computing, registries and resources stuff, and also all other stuff using lwjgl

[magic river]

It has a lot of the components of a game engine because you'd be insane to make a game that doesn't

But instead of making a generic block game engine and then putting Minecraft stuff on top it's just all blended together

A big effort of Mojang the past few years has been to unblend it, that's why datapacks can exist

Only relatively simple 2D or text games can get away with not having any engine at all

And they're usually a huge mess because of it

Dwarf Fortress probably doesn't have much you could point at as an engine, everything in that game seems to be a special snowflake of logic

[wet storm]

imo they won't unblend it until they separate client and server into their own modules, and generally make modular the game, iirc they internally have sides together, just obfuscator go brrrr and seperates them...

[magic river]

Terraria doesn't really have an engine, it's literally just giant if/else blocks to test every block and item in every scenario

[void void]

until they separate client and server into their own modules
uh...

why do you think you can download the server standalone already? lol

[magic river]

The first thing the old Bukkit folks did is put the client and server together

Because that's how you make a game

Before they shared some code but the client was a different game with somewhat different mechanics

Now single player is literally just the server but packets go in a queue instead of getting serialized to sent over the network

Which also means they don't duplicate chunk data between the client and server sides so they have to be careful to ensure the client parts don't mess with it

[brave mountain]

So btrfs for paper?

[magic river]

btrfs is the only sane option for systemd-homed

Hopefully some day whatever crazy layering system Red Hat is trying to make on top of ext4/xfs will work

[brave mountain]

ok I use bt on my dayly

[magic river]

https://stratis-storage.github.io/

[wet storm]

Have you ever had some project which you made in a few days without any problems but it is actually an over-engineered concept which no one will ever use?..

[magic river]

Sure, I made my own TypeToken once

And a few hash tables

[red timber]

let me introduce you zfs

lol

[twin lagoon]

zfs 🥺

[red timber]

michale i fixed zorg's sops + remote repos support

[magic river]

Oracle should fix the ZFS license then

[twin lagoon]

hot

[magic river]

Although I think at this point OpenZFS has enough contributions that might not be enough

[red timber]

luckily you can have openzfs easily in recent ubuntus so

don't need to jump through 200 flaming hoops

[magic river]

It's a massive hack though

They're hoping the kernel doesn't remove things they need because they can't be a part of the kernel and drive those decisions

And the kernel isn't willing to keep something just because an out of tree module uses it, even if that module is free software (just with a bad license)

[red timber]

as with all out of tree modules

[magic river]

It's actually even more of a hack than that though

OpenZFS is like the nvidia driver, a generic core and then a bunch of adapters to different kernels

It's not written to fit in with Linux

[red timber]

that's not true anymore

they changed linux to primary target recently

(iirc)

from freebsd

[magic river]

So the FreeBSD people who (afaik) started the project are gone?

[red timber]

lemme try searching the news article

but that could be possible yeah

[magic river]

Even still it's probably at least a 2 year project to actually change the code to be a Linux filesystem instead of a filesystem library with a Linux adapter on top

[red timber]

well ya, and its memory management is kinda ass at times

[magic river]

Not that it matters, if it's not in upstream it's a support nightmare

[red timber]

doesn't play well with linux under OOM situations

kernel will happily nuke processes instead of drop arc cache

linux probably doesn't expose any ways to hook into that OOM killer logic either

but since that's becoming very annoying issue then i might look into writing a patch... at least for myself initially

[magic river]

Wait wait wait, ZFS even duplicated the damn page cache?

Yeah that's definitely not a Linux filesystem 😛

Doing their own thing instead of using bcache I can understand, I think btrfs does too, but their own memory cache is just... weird

[red timber]

either way zfs does its job nicely, and sanoid (or znapzend) is godsend tool for easy snapshotting & replicating

[magic river]

I don't doubt it's a very polished turd

The more I learn about it the less I want to use it though 😄

Maybe it's better integrated on FreeBSD

[red timber]

well, different opinions after all

on related topic: btrfs balance will absolutely suck the soul out from your disk & cpu

[magic river]

Sounds like a RAID thing

[red timber]

and doing this on 128gb shitty kingston disk is very oof

[magic river]

I don't really care about the RAID parts of it

[red timber]

nah, btrfs has this nice issue sometimes where you'll run out of metadata space

so got to do it every once in a while even in single disk setups

but good lord next time i'll just reformat the disk...

[brave mountain]

lvm or not?

[red timber]

do you need lvm

[brave mountain]

I do't know

[red timber]

then no lvm

[brave mountain]

ok

sir

[red timber]

guh

[magic river]

btrfs balance is basically making a new filesystem and moving all of your data to it then deleting the old one

Assuming you run it without any kind of filters

[twin lagoon]

yeah i'll fix it one day

[magic river]

I think that's what this man page is telling me

So yeah, that'll be expensive

[red timber]

yeah literally better of reformatting and rsyncing

will be faster (i bet by 2x)

[magic river]

❯ sudo dmesg | grep -i btrfs

[red timber]

actually it might've been much much faster if i just rsynced home directory to my laptop, reinstalled nixos and then rsynced data back lol

[magic river]

Huh, it removed the empty line

Anyway, no output

[red timber]

https://pastes.dev/upBym5O9r7

exactly 256 lines

amazon S3 is asking money for object size rather than count, right?

[twin lagoon]

they charge for bucket size & actions/requests

[red timber]

so storing each line into its oen object is going to make me homeless

[twin lagoon]

would probably go homeless from bandwidth costs

[red timber]

it's fine if i did this on my own S3-like thing i guess

but yeah ok, i'll figure out where else i can shave time off

[magic river]

minio

[potent wedge]

Will paper become self sufficient instead of relying on the original Minecraft jar

[worn ember]

No

Literally no reason to

[split sigil]

is anyone else having intellij 2022.1 randomly crash on them after going on low memory

i tried allocating it 6 gb

still does it

and often

[spare venture]

does anyone use mobaxterm and figured out how to make it open your default text editor for files instead of the mobaxterm text editor?
mine used to do that, but ever since some update it only uses my default text editor on .txt/.text files. any other file type is mobaxterm text editor

[magic river]

https://twitter.com/chybeta/status/1523552115137810432

Henry Chen (@chybeta)

CVE-2022-1388

Likes

520

Twitter · May 9, 2022, 6:35 AM

I hope Mini doesn't work with any F5 gear 😄

[void void]

Does anyone here happen to know a cosmetics plugin that allows players to preview the cosmetics before buying?

You can do it by self

Guys, how much players your 1.18.2 server can hold?

[potent wedge]

I know someone who made a mc thing and it can handle 2500 players at once

[void void]

at once server instance?

[potent wedge]

Yes

[void void]

Wow

[potent wedge]

This was on like a really good PC no Mojang jar all from scratch

I'm editing so much because I'm half asleep

[void void]

cool programmer

[potent wedge]

Yes he is very inspiring

Their watchamacallit DM's are on though and I got banned from the server I saw him demonstrate it on

[void void]

lol

[potent wedge]

Take paper chan

Paper chan I will give life

[void void]

I'm tired, need going to bed

All the best

[raven berry]

where do i get this

[vernal thicket]

oki nvm

[magic river]

Is that Shia LaBeouf?

[spare venture]

thats my dad

[magic river]

https://twitter.com/molly0xFFF/status/1524034303134470145

Molly White (@molly0xFFF)

i feel like it's a bad sign when your stablecoin community is talking about "buying the dip"

Likes

1393

Twitter · May 10, 2022, 2:31 PM

[foggy veldt]

Lol tru
*opens coin base*

[warm anchor]

[spare venture]

crypto bad

[magic river]

Fedora feels very Windows sometimes