thank you youtube, very cool
#general
worn ember
vernal moth
@neon bramble it you only look at modern versions, the numbers for paper are muuuuuch higher
neon bramble
May we continue then?
neon bramble
<@264852356821286912> it you only look at modern versions, the numbers for paper...
A lot of servers are still stuck on 1.8 
ok nvm
vernal moth
neon bramble
it is only 7%
vernal moth
Servers on 1.8 literally doesn't matter
Like, no thing we do today will affect them in any way
They don't update the server, they don't update plugins
There's no hope
neon bramble
<@264852356821286912> it you only look at modern versions, the numbers for paper...
it kinda makes sense, the newer the version is, the bigger performance difference between spigot <-> paper
I mean
I am pretty sure that someone will just create a fork which adds it back
honestly I wouldn't be surprised if purpur added it back
vernal moth
They will be irrelevant tho
neon bramble
They will be irrelevant tho
Will they?
still sorrel
Fried my laptop
vernal moth
If the majority of big plugins follows us
still sorrel
Water on keyboard not good
Well it was running surprisingly long while wet
After drying the surface and booting it up again it held out decent
neon bramble
btw, if you want to remove the legacy api, why isn't it marked for removal?
(Deprecated#forRemoval)
wraith trail
there aren't any immediate or concrete plans to remove it
afaik it's more of a dream at this point
magic river
That flag is new in Java 17, isn't it?
neon bramble
That flag is new in Java 17, isn't it?
honestly? No clue.
wraith trail
pretty sure that is 9
magic river
Deprecated normally meant it would be going away soon
neon bramble
honestly? No clue.
lemme check
wraith trail
yeah 9
magic river
They added the distinction because they decided some of it wouldn't go away but you shouldn't use it
neon bramble
Deprecated normally meant it would be going away soon
well, that flag is there to confirm it, in some cases you might have @Deprecated flag on something you do not plan to remove
magic river
That's a silly level of software engineering for block game
neon bramble
magic river
I'm surprised it has kept going this long, I burned out on it after 2.5 years 😛
neon bramble
I'm surprised it has kept going this long, I burned out on it after 2.5 years 😛
i mean, is the legacy api such a pain to mantain?
worn ember
yes
wraith trail
either way, this isn't a couple months, or probably years or ever thing
neon bramble
Glad for that, as much as I've tried, I wasn't able to avoid it in some places
wraith trail
the most user facing issues is that whenever a plugin uses some of the legacy stuff ingame features go away
such as, hovering over a death message to view a weapon
magic river
I still think the hard fork will be the death of the project, looking back at it
neon bramble
well, you could make it naggable
wraith trail
broken on probably 60+% of bukkit servers
magic river
But I also think it'll die a slower and more painful death if they don't
So...
I'm also super jaded about all things Bukkit
neon bramble
well bukkit is bukkit
magic river
It's a shitty API that has been maintained and expanded on in shitty ways
neon bramble
agree
but there currently really isn't a better alternative (as far as performance goes)
worn ember
discord changed some colors and its really throwing me off lmao
neon bramble
unless you do not need vanilla features
neon bramble
discord changed some colors and its really throwing me off lmao
did it?
worn ember
the new message line is more red, for starter
vernal moth
Bukkit doesn't have anything to do with performance?
golden gust
"I want modern things but I also don't wanna lose my 10 year old plugins" really doesn't work longterm
theres been years upon years of data loss or damage due to craftbukkit
neon bramble
Bukkit doesn't have anything to do with performance?
I mean, that the most performant servers use bukkit.
(Paper)
Or is sponge faster?
vernal moth
See, Bukkit is an API
magic river
Sponge was at one point probably faster
golden gust
much of it which is unfixable as it stands because god forbid we yeet outdated stuff
magic river
But that was like 1.12
vernal moth
Paper is a mess of patches
golden gust
e.g. legacy text creates consistent issues due to the back and forth conversions
magic river
Although their API is heavier so it may have balanced out, I don't think anyone benchmarked it
worn ember
Sponge was at one point probably faster
Speed is Optional
neon bramble
"I want modern things but I also don't wanna lose my 10 year old plugins" really...
the issue is, many new plugins still use the legacy api to mantain compatibility with spigot
sorry for ping
golden gust
I mean
neon bramble
didn't realize
magic river
Fuck Spigot 😛
golden gust
either we move forward and adopt new features
vernal moth
We will sort stuff out, worrying about it today doesn't help really
golden gust
or, we stick in the past and further diverge from vanilla
We're not aiming to fuck everything up day 1
worn ember
just use paperlib and dab on spigot users
vernal moth
We haven't met all dependencies for a hard fork so talking about it leads nowhere
golden gust
we aim to have a sane deprecation policy to allow stuff to slowly move forward, maintain compat where possible as much as possible
but, between legacy plugins and moving forward, we're gonna eer towards moving forward
worn ember
talking about hardforking instead of working on hangar smh
neon bramble
does hangar have some kind of plugin that would update the plugins on the end user side?
vernal moth
Just rest assured that we will make sure to take everybody willing to take part in a modern community with us on our ride
magic river
Day 1 of hardfork should be removing all deprecated things 😛
neon bramble
well then, I am fucked
vernal moth
That's exactly what we will not be doing
magic river
They've had months to years of warning at this point
worn ember
hangar package manager wen
void void
hapt-get™️
twin lagoon
hapt
golden gust
Issue is that deprecation from spigot is generally a joke
neon bramble
it is
golden gust
Like
getting a map from its ID is deprecated
ignoring that ids are and have been the only way to get a map from the server for god knows how long
magic river
We should have broken things more back in 2012 is the real problem here
vernal moth
Once we have Bukkit as source we can make sure to do better
magic river
Before that Bukkit broke in some serious way every few months
neon bramble
Once we have Bukkit as source we can make sure to do better
I am afraid that won't happen
magic river
We bragged about plugins from beta 1.6 working on release 1.7 instead
And now no one wants to change anything
golden gust
find an API or project which has existed for 10 years and hasn't had any major API breaks and I'll show you a shit project which isn'tmoving forward
and, that's the issue with bukkit; the server has supported custom biomes for what, 2 years now?
worn ember
Log4J had no breaking changes or exploits in the past 10 years 
neon bramble
neon bramble
doesn't it? lol
magic river
The only way to do anything useful with command tab completion is to bypass the API
void void
They are working on removing some of the enums to allow for custom stuff (biomes, etc) though
golden gust
mojang is only going to push harder on moving forward, making datapacks more powerful, and right now the API is in this state where the shit we shoulda done 6 years ago
neon bramble
mojang is only going to push harder on moving forward, making datapacks more pow...
better 6 years late, than never
golden gust
i.e. moving away from enums, etc
magic river
How does Forge deal with command clashes? First one loaded wins? Should probably just switch to that
golden gust
is now biting us in the ass because now we've got spigot which refuses to do anything without maintaining stupid backwards compat
neon bramble
is now biting us in the ass because now we've got spigot which refuses to do any...
similarly to bungeecord
neon bramble
oof sorry
magic river
Having the minecraft:foo vs essentials:foo stuff is nice but confuses people and datapacks
neon bramble
thank god I use velocity :D
golden gust
Bungee fucking sends json strings through the API
vernal moth
Bungeecord is basically deprecated too
neon bramble
I still don't understand, why people do not use Velocity
like
most of the plugins you need on proxy are available
vernal moth
Because people are scared of change
untold meadow
most
there's your answer
magic river
Uh, you're bitching about API changes
But think people should use velocity
A completely different API from bungeecord
golden gust
I mean, thing for velocity is the ecosystem
neon bramble
>most
there's your answer
The only one I know about is JPremium
golden gust
many things have changed since then
neon bramble
But think people should use velocity
The duality of a man
golden gust
i.e. we used to think that handling chat purely on the proxy was a good idea
worn ember
why would you use velocity if you gotta make every plugin yourself cuz there is no eco system 
neon bramble
well, because there is :D
golden gust
eventually we learned that people want features like placeholders, for data which only exists on the servers
worn ember
barely compared to bungee
spare venture
you don’t really need to do a whole lot on the proxy level
neon bramble
like tell me what do you need on proxy?
golden gust
Well, that's part of the issue with a new ecosystem
neon bramble
LuckPerms?
spare venture
luckperms doesn’t need to be on proxy
golden gust
You have to remember that bungee only won out cos it was associated with spigot
neon bramble
eventually we learned that people want features like placeholders, for data whic...
Sucks
pallid edge
ah yes bukkit & bungeecord bashing, lemme get my popcorn and enjoy the read
worn ember
then why would you use velocity if you dont need many plugins 
golden gust
theres been proxies before which where much more performant than bungee, bungee won out cos spigot and java APIs
neon bramble
luckperms doesn’t need to be on proxy
why wouldn't it tho?
spare venture
velocity has like 2 commands
neon bramble
theres been proxies before which where much more performant than bungee, bungee ...
Were there some proxies not in Java?
golden gust
now you have a new ecosystem which performs much better which requires that people slowly move their stuff over towards it or break their older concepts
neon bramble
velocity has like 2 commands
well if you have some moderation plugins on the proxy
you need it.
magic river
lilypad was such a nicer system than bungeecord
spare venture
why would you put moderation plugins on the proxy
quasi valley
why not
twin lagoon
still works, still in use by some
golden gust
no data sync if you're doing it on the network
neon bramble
why would you put moderation plugins on the proxy
idk because well things like bans etc. should be ideally handled on the proxy imo
spare venture
i just put litebans on every backend
golden gust
boot connections arelier into the connection stuff so you use less resources
neon bramble
^
golden gust
I mean, litebans on everything works but it's hardly a great solution for scaling
magic river
lilypad had a control server which managed the actual proxy instances and did pub/sub so servers could communicate but beyond that you basically did everything just on the servers
neon bramble
which is a bad idea IMO
magic river
No figuring out what should be on the proxy and what should be on the servers and how to deal with conflicts, the proxy only knows how to send people to servers
Let the server figure out everything else and give it a way to coordinate with the other servers
twin lagoon
right so instead you want to move that to the proxy
neon bramble
yeah?
twin lagoon
and if your proxy goes down, everyone gets disconnected
magic river
The proxy which is handling multiple servers
neon bramble
well everyone get's disconnected anyway if your proxy goes down
I don't see your point?
magic river
Yeah, that sounds like how scalable things work
twin lagoon
okay but not everyone gets disconnected if one server goes down?
magic river
Push all the work to the thing you have fewer of
neon bramble
okay but not everyone gets disconnected if one server goes down?
I am missing your point?
If you put your moderation handling on proxy
which will only reduce load on servers
where is the issue?
spare venture
I was just saying there aren’t a ton of velocity plugins because there isn’t a ton you need to do outside the proxy. Only things I can think of for general people are permissions, punishment, and chat.
magic river
I guess I can see the need for permissions to support doing bans but I would just make the server send a message to the proxy to add/remove a ban or put the bans in a DB
vernal moth
Not like a moderation plugin would steal any performance from your backend servers, lol
magic river
Chat makes no sense on the proxy
golden gust
You can scale proxies ez if you're in the need for scaling anyways
neon bramble
^
golden gust
moderation is a really weird area, however
vernal moth
It's way more complex tho cat
neon bramble
i mean, you will get in that state if you have like 5K players?
golden gust
Like, being able to boot early has some pros, especially if you're expecting stuff to be sane
neon bramble
I think at that point, you can afford that.
vernal moth
i mean, you will get in that state if you have like 5K players?
Something 99% of servers never reach
quasi valley
yeah lol
vernal moth
But you can also just do it on the backend
quasi valley
and if you have 5k players scaling should be easy for whoever you have
golden gust
I mean, shit gets nuanced
a ban plugin on the proxy is gonna have less load on the overall network vs the servers themselves
neon bramble
lemme get my dictionary
fuck, google translate does not know definition for word nuanced
golden gust
and, if you're at the point where scaling proxies come into play, you're gonna need to be setup for that anyways
golden gust
basically none in the scheme of things which is my point
neon bramble
I mean, if you have a good scalable system
worn ember
i just solved your issues
golden gust
at the point at which the load of a ban plugin becomes an issue you're probs gonna be dealing with scaling issues anyways
neon bramble
you can just throw velocity on 2x 64c/128t cpus /s
worn ember
just make it anarchy so you dont need a banning system
neon bramble
at the point at which the load of a ban plugin becomes an issue you're probs gon...
Honestly, at which point does that happen?
like with 10k players?
you need to scale far before that anyway
radiant oriole
If you’re anywhere close to needing to scale, then you’ll be able to solve that problem with your wallet.
neon bramble
exactly.
worn ember
your storage solution could be a bottleneck by then sure, but eh gl scaling your instances to hold 10k players to begin with
worn ember
No.
neon bramble
ok :(
worn ember
request denied
neon bramble
:(
magic river
Clusters generally lose latency to gain throughput and scalability
golden gust
in all my years of working with rando servers, I've literally never seen a server need to get into clustering
magic river
So might be too slow to use
golden gust
and, at the point at which you get into clustering, your software needs to cater for that
neon bramble
in all my years of working with rando servers, I've literally never seen a serve...
yup, modern databases can handle huge loads
waxen panther
golden gust
i.e. auto increment is a MASSIVE issue on clusters
is it?
waxen panther
average cluster user
twin lagoon
@waxen panther
waxen panther
worn ember
database cluster
just do like the company i have to clean up their infrastructure for. Put everything in an access database with no relations or normalization whatsoever and then be surprised when the azure instance takes 2 minutes to load a form cuz it has to go through 480 queries to get a result
neon bramble
magic river
autoincrement requires two phase locking across the entire cluster on every insert, afaik
neon bramble
imagine using MS products :)
neon bramble
autoincrement requires two phase locking across the entire cluster on every inse...
does it? Fuck
I mean
vernal moth
That's why sane people use guids
neon bramble
I will probably never reach a stage when I need it
golden gust
yea, idk anything which really deals with that well outside of the db's which basically have their own offset for clustering
magic river
This is why twitter invented snowflakes
golden gust
^^
worn ember
so are its users lul
golden gust
Much of this stuff is already solve, ofc
magic river
uuids index and cluster poorly
golden gust
but, issue is that plugins rarely need to cater for this scale, and so nobody does
worn ember
guids then
magic river
So people make uuid-like things that don't require locking on insert but also sort better
golden gust
UUIDs are a pita because "they should never conflict"
warm anchor
This is why twitter invented snowflakes
Two kinds of snowflakes 
static badge
Two kinds of snowflakes <:PepeLa:798951090539987004>
neon bramble
That's why sane people use guids
In some scenarios using autoincrement bigint might be beneficial. A good example of this is some kind of a report system, you want to have some relatively short, easy to type ids, so mods do not eat you alive.
magic river
In my experience most of the group complaining about snowflakes are the actual snowflakes but we probably shouldn't get in to that 😛
golden gust
your issue is that db's in the cluster need to agree with one another
otherwise what happens if two db instances in the cluster try to use the same id for the auto-increment?
neon bramble
which leads me to another point
golden gust
hence, snowflakes
neon bramble
which leads me to another point
how do you guys synchronize data between servers?
golden gust
snowflakes are basically a mixture of the time and some other data to ensure uniqueness in a db
magic river
postgres
golden gust
depends on the data lifecycle
vernal moth
In some scenarios using autoincrement bigint might be beneficial. A good example...
For such a db you don't need a cluster tho
neon bramble
For such a db you don't need a cluster tho
you usually dont
golden gust
i.e. eco is dangerous to cache on individual instances so for that you'd query directly against the DB
magic river
No
golden gust
hypixel doesn't do live DB stuff afaik
vernal moth
You don't want to use the stuff hypixel uses
It's prolly still filled with legacy stuff
golden gust
they load data into some system which keeps data loaded during the players instance
magic river
hypixel probably doesn't have enough DB load to require a cluster
golden gust
which is part of the ideal world is that you have the speed of in-memory stuff with a sane API to do stuff
vernal moth
Where's oncle agent to tell horror stories?
neon bramble
i.e. eco is dangerous to cache on individual instances so for that you'd query d...
and that is exactly my issue, I have a profile which consists of some balance and that's pretty much it, I need to access the balance synchronously therefore, it must be locally cached, however I need to update and read that same profile on multiple servers at the same time.
using mariadb, considering redis
golden gust
In my years
neon bramble
which is kinda unavoidable
neon bramble
i've literally NEVER had any issues with eco in a db
i am super paranoid, like really really paranoid
magic river
Still don't want to do a network call on the main thread
golden gust
do what you can off the main thread, but, the instances where you need to do it on main are not all that often that it's a pressing issue if you designed stuff properly
magic river
But you shouldn't need to either
neon bramble
Still don't want to do a network call on the main thread
ikr? That is exactly my issue
golden gust
Well, issue is that every plugin accesses the eco on the main thread more or less for things like commands
part of why we wanted a new vault is so that we could push stuff like Futures, etc
neon bramble
do what you can off the main thread, but, the instances where you need to do it ...
Currently, the only place I need to do it, is chest shop (yes those are still a thing)
magic river
Unless you care about rcon users you can just return from the command after setting up an async task to do the lookup and give a real response
neon bramble
Well, issue is that every plugin accesses the eco on the main thread more or les...
That ain't an issue for me, I have pretty much all things own
neon bramble
Unless you care about rcon users you can just return from the command after sett...
that is exactly what i do
all my commands run async by default
i push almost everything off the main thraed
golden gust
yea, I mean, part of the joy these days is that if you wanna do stuff properly, you really need to do it yourself
I don't think that there is any real competently maintained eco plugin these days
magic river
You could make a shop that does the purchase async but it'll be more complicated and custom
neon bramble
yea, I mean, part of the joy these days is that if you wanna do stuff properly, ...
Like you cannot imagine, how awkward I feel for using Zrips's residences
golden gust
But, eco is this weird area where the plugin gets stable and doesn't need to do much more than that
neon bramble
You _could_ make a shop that does the purchase async but it'll be more complicat...
that is currently my last resort, it will substract the balance, try to remove the things from the chest inventory, if it fails, add it back
golden gust
and so the plugins basically become "complete", bugs are discovered over the years but people already moved on
that's what transactions are for
waxen panther
using external plugins 
neon bramble
but back on the topic, how do you synchronize data between servers?
golden gust
cache what can be local locally
have a messaging system which allows you to bust caches on the network
optimise what can't be cached, etc
neon bramble
ok, how do you prevent race conditions?
golden gust
depends on the scenario
golden gust
Like, you're asking one of the mystical issues which CS has yet to solve
magic river
If Microsoft got Windows to run on the Xbox it would basically destroy all the other competitors.
neon bramble
it will take me a while because my english lol
neon bramble
> If Microsoft got Windows to run on the Xbox it would basically destroy all the...
they got running chromium on it :D
neon bramble
it is lol
magic river
It's an NT kernel, DirectX 12, etc
It's like Windows but you replaced explorer.exe with the xbox UI
And it has Edge so you can already use it as a desktop version of a chromebook
void void
Where's oncle agent to tell horror stories?
I think his IRC ping for the word hypixel broke 
neon bramble
ok so we have server A and server B
Our player "John" is playing on server B, however he also has a chest shop on server A. He has 100$ on his account, now at the same time someone sells him 100 $ worth of diamonds on server A and John buys 100 $ worth of idk... sand on server B. So, this will happen:
server A fetches John's balance -> 100 $
server B does the same -> 100 $
both servers proceed, because they see that john, indeed has enough money to do the action
now
server A sends a query to the database to substract 100 $ from John's account
server B does the same
the result
John now has -100 $, which, especially assuming we would use unsigned numbers, would be a huge issue.
These are the technologies that I can utilize
mariadb (I store data there)
redis and rabbitmq (I do not use either of this ATM)
golden gust
that's where transactions come into play
neon bramble
ok, lemme make this a bit harder
server A needs to do the substraction part synchronously
golden gust
start transaction
do mutation and lock db row
do stuff
commit and end transaction
after the row i locked in the db, nothing else can read or write to it if you lock it properly
native wolf
It's like Windows but you replaced explorer.exe with the xbox UI
You can even run UWP apps on Xbox lol
neon bramble
ok, what if, the item becomes unavailable in the chest on server A, meanwhile we do the DB action?
glass crag
you could reserve them before the transaction, or do the checks while you have control
golden gust
pre-serve
neon bramble
how would I reserve them? (I am not that advanced with mysql in java)
glass crag
take diamonds from chest, wait for transaction, if successful, pass them on, if not, put them back
golden gust
nobody has solved these issues nicely
you basically just start getting into multiples of transactions potentially
neon bramble
that is pretty much what I wanted to do except redis. So there isn't really any simpler way?
golden gust
or queing such transactions up somewhere so that a single threaded thing can just run through work
radiant oriole
ok so we have server A and server B
Our player "John" is playing on server B, ho...
You can also escrow money across servers for sync. So say the John’s total balance is 1000. Server A wants to deduct balance. So server A asks server B “hey, send 100 from bob’s balance into escrow”. B does this and all is well. Once the money is in escrow, server A transfers the money out of escrow, and now it’s in A’s control. A deducts the money, and bob is left with 900.
neon bramble
my solution was, to keep those things in redis cache
glass crag
the technology you use probably wont solve the problem
neon bramble
and then lock the resource when I need it
glass crag
if you're doing a get + a set, the value could change in between those 2 calls
golden gust
which is why transactions exist
radiant oriole
if you're doing a get + a set, the value could change in between those 2 calls
Which is why you wrap it in a transaction
golden gust
you literally lock the row so that no other mutations can occur
but, once again, this is one of the many unsolved issues of CS
neon bramble
ok, would placing a cache between this (redis) make the process faster?
golden gust
there are many means to work around the issue but each of them has their own caveats and limitations, especially when dealing with multiple resources which mutate
glass crag
yes i agree, just highlighting that redis doesnt magically solve the problem
neon bramble
ik
golden gust
if redis supports transactions, I mean, yea, you'd just work across the in-memory db
neon bramble
I just thought it could help to solve the issue
neon bramble
but, I mean, this is literally nothing to a properly configured db
I am (at least currently) on a shared host
this is not in my control
golden gust
Like, within 50ms a tick, stuff matters a lot harder than it does vs to humans
much of the stuff people panic about caching on MC is just typical to do directly against the database everywhere else
radiant oriole
if redis supports transactions, I mean, yea, you'd just work across the in-memor...
Redis can do this kind of thing with a LUA script.
neon bramble
well,from this conversation I know one thing for sure
I need to completely redo my db system 
radiant oriole
You really don’t need redis for this
neon bramble
I want to be prepared for scaling
radiant oriole
You just need a proper DB schema
Only design for the next order of magnitude.
If you’re at 10 players now, don’t design for 1000 players.
neon bramble
also, when I update something, I somehow need to tell other servers to update the local cache
neon bramble
If you’re at 10 players now, don’t design for 1000 players.
i am bored
And want to learn this shit
better try it with 10 players than with 1k
golden gust
I mean, as I said, we get onto data lifecycles
cache invalidation is yet just another unsolved CS issue
spare venture
well it takes a lot to attract those players, maybe work on that attraction first 😉
golden gust
you can poop messages around the network to tell stuff to invalidate data, but, theres always gonna be potential for races outside of storing everything in some central system which manages all of that and everything is queried from it, etc
neon bramble
well, my current system works until multiple servers need to access the same data, so I will leave it that way for a while
radiant oriole
better try it with 10 players than with 1k
You missed the point, you should only design for 1000 players once you hit 100. You should think in orders of magnitude. First figure out how to get 10 players, then 100, then 1000.
glass crag
keep things as decoupled as you can so things are easier to replace
neon bramble
you say that as if it’s a guarantee
it is not
spare venture
odds are you’ll never need to refactor
radiant oriole
^
neon bramble
I just work with the worst case scenarios
golden gust
Basically
radiant oriole
If you get to 1000 players you’ll be able to solve this problem with money.
golden gust
go get a piece of paper
spare venture
not economical
neon bramble
or best, depends on how you look at it
golden gust
write down all the chunks of data you need
neon bramble
If you get to 1000 players you’ll be able to solve this problem with money.
ok, but I also want to learn how to do it :D
neon bramble
it is not.
golden gust
do i need to cache this? does caching it impose any risks? etc, etc, etc
radiant oriole
Listen to cat, this is how you design distributed systems
neon bramble
listening.
glass crag
each problem is really going to be unique
radiant oriole
Ideally you don’t design distributed systems at all lmfao
golden gust
solutions vary depending upon the data involved and how viable and safe it is to cache stuff ^
spare venture
there are literally only a handful of servers that do more than 1000 players ever
golden gust
sometimes you get into the corner where you need to redesign stuff to be able to cope with it
magic river
Just put this in production and use a single DB
neon bramble
ok, if querying on demand is not viable and caching imposes huge risks, am I fucked?
radiant oriole
I’ve only managed 800
magic river
It basically does intelligent query caching and invalidation automatically
golden gust
I mean, unless you find a magical solution for it, you're fucked
neon bramble
magic river
(it's a research project, don't do that)
golden gust
ofc, many issues where people think that data can't be queried on demand, it can be, easily
spare venture
and most servers that get to 1000 players are lying and have less
magic river
It does actually work though
golden gust
databases are MUCH faster than people given them credit for
magic river
They proved you can do it
golden gust
(especally if you configure them properly)
neon bramble
databases are MUCH faster than people given them credit for
ikr? but the issue is, the database might be in a next country than the server
golden gust
that's stupid
neon bramble
it is
golden gust
Never do that
neon bramble
but I have to work with it currently
magic river
noria won't help you there, it sits in front of your DB but you can't run multiple of them
Also, don't run any of them 😛
neon bramble
i do not plan that lol
golden gust
Nothing can solve the latency issue
golden gust
No
magic river
wow though
golden gust
This is why you need to fix your broken architecture
neon bramble
ikr?
spare venture
is there really anything to fix if you’ll never get 1000 players
not to be pessimistic but
neon bramble
I wont
spare venture
you’re worrying about the wrong things
neon bramble
The point is, I want to learn how to do it + be prepared if it somehow happens
spare venture
gotcha
magic river
It basically turns your query in to a graph, computes and caches the values of each node of that graph, and then since it knows what the inputs to each node are when you do an insert or update it invalidates those nodes automatically
Or something like that
So if you do two similar queries some of the cache for the first one can even be used to make the second one faster
golden gust
spoopy
magic river
And they have math and logic and shit to show this won't have invalidation problems
golden gust
that actually sound pretty cool af
magic river
Just off by one errors and similar mistakes in the implementation 😛
ashen cliff
The point is, I want to learn how to do it + be prepared if it somehow happens
I'll give you an idea.
Get 10 players, keep lowering the CPU performance till you hit issues, look at what's using most of it, fix it, and repeat.
_After that, do the same with memory. 
_
wide chasm
Bro, that's cursed
ashen cliff
Bro.
sage vessel
the /modmail command
mint patio
(it is my account lol)
mint patio
ok done
magic river
I also recommend either disabling DMs that aren't from friends or at least disabling them from public discord servers like this one
warm anchor
Yeah if someone wants to reach out to you, they will find a way
plucky sparrow
I’m yet to get a message from those scammers
worn ember
Even the bots don't want to communicate with you
heady solstice
This is not paper, but I hope I get some inside of this
Im looking to some app dev and as far as I have read, usually the apps do api calls to rest apis and such, some of them may need authentication, how does generally deal with that? I assume some type of access token? If so, how do they determine that the token is being used in the same device at it was generated?
worn ember
Take a look at jwt tokens
heady solstice
Take a look at jwt tokens
As I can read, thats just a replacement/alternative for Bearer tokens, right
But that token have something that identify the device? Does app generally check the device or rather something like the iP'
?*
cosmic raft
@warm anchor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzQyo76BTjE
warm anchor
halcyon horizon
Anyone willing to help me set up a server restart script?
Im so lost with this
I dont know what gist or chmod or tmux are, and it seems like this tutorial assumes that you know exactly what to do already
lament patio
Are you Linux or Windows?
halcyon horizon
Windows
spare venture
where is that tutorial
lament patio
Ah, well, in that case the tutorial doesn't cover it
halcyon horizon
where is that tutorial
Pinned message in the paper help chat
spare venture
well yeah the tutorial assumes you understand linux, considering 90%+ of servers are run on linux
lament patio
You'll have to look for some start.bat script, but I can't recommend anything specific
halcyon horizon
Ive never heard of a server run on linux 😂
spare venture
you’ll need to specify windows when trying to find help stuff
warm anchor
Literally majority of Minecraft server runs on Linux
I can’t think of a host that uses windows
warm anchor
Tfw windows NT
halcyon horizon
Okay so, in spigot.yml, I set "restart-script: ./start.bat" to whatever my "runtheserver .bat" file name is?
golden gust
the script there won't work for windows, on windows you'd just have a "goto" loop and deal with stopping it yourself, basically
proud lance
Anyone willing to help me set up a server restart script?
just use nssm or firedaemon
halcyon horizon
What are those?
proud lance
wrappers for windows apps to run as services
so if your server crashes its automatically restarted and you can control stuff like starting the server on a different user account, etc
halcyon horizon
I just want my server to start back up when I type /restart 😅 I dont understand why that isnt just part of it by default
spare venture
I just want my server to start back up when I type /restart 😅 I dont understan...
because that’s not how most people do it
golden gust
It is
spare venture
the script there won't work for windows, on windows you'd just have a "goto" loo...
do this. it’s the simplest.
golden gust
Just, the entire mechanism is flawed
spare venture
i rarely see anyone set up a restart script using spigots stuff
proud lance
I just want my server to start back up when I type /restart 😅 I dont understan...
...so do /stop and it restarts...
golden gust
imagine if you where dying and you had to pop out a new one of you to keep the world moving
spare venture
every guide i’ve really seen tells you to use a loop
golden gust
it just, not great
am sure you could do the fancy thing we do for linux in powershell
or maybe even batch
It just requires that somebody knows how to work with other of those things and do it, and, thus far, nobody has stepped up
:restart
java ...
goto restart
or whatever it was, is rundementaty, everything will restart even when you don't want it to, but, it works
spare venture
can get as fancy as you want too
tropic flame
or maybe even batch
and I felt inspired so here it goes
@echo off
chcp 65001
:loop
java -jar server.jar
choice /C YN /T 30 /N /D Y /M "Would you like to restart the server? (Y/N):"
if %ERRORLEVEL%==1 (
echo Restarting server...
goto loop
)
echo Server stopped! Press any key to exit...
pause>nul
exit
batch ain't as bad as some make it sound lmfao
(this will basically restart the server automatically after 30 seconds if you don't go to the command prompt and press N to cancel)
tropic flame
well, it's mostly the equivalent to what I have for my servers' scripts on linux so it's pretty good to me
golden gust
But, nobody here wants to learn batch to do something for an environment they don't care too much about
tropic flame
now I'd only add a second choice to ask if I want to make a backup of the world
and probably use 7-zip's CLI tool for that
nocturne urchin
what's a recommended server jar for 1.8, or are you guys gonna tell me to have 1.18 backend ._.
tropic flame
what's a recommended server jar for 1.8, or are you guys gonna tell me to have 1...
yes
nocturne urchin
fair enough
tropic flame
and probably use 7-zip's CLI tool for that
but yeah i guess that on linux you can set up cronjobs and other fancy stuff, idk much about it
i just felt like flexing with my first language ever a little LMFAO
elfin cipher
how to enable individual mob cap on paper?
warm anchor
It’s enabled by default
Unless you are running a super old 1.17
Per-player-mob-spawn in paper.yml
elfin cipher
alright,but i've experienced low spawn rates on mob farms when people are in a far
how to fix that?
spare venture
low spawn rates compared to singleplayer?
warm anchor
That’s just how it works
elfin cipher
if one player is far away from mob farm the spawn rate is low
warm anchor
Even with per player if someone has a less than ideal condition for mob to spawn around him, it will be more likely to pop up around others
golden gust
mob spawning is naunced af
many issues are down to misconfig/not understanding how mob spawning works
elfin cipher
i see
golden gust
but, generally, mob spawning is just broken af and the only good fix for it ever is gonna be to just completely replace mob spawning
warm anchor
I pinged you in #paper-help (which is the correct channel for questions) read that wall of text @elfin cipher
golden gust
per player helps mitigate some of the wider issues and even vanilla does that in 1.18, but, there is no overall magical solution for all issues, it involves tryna pick off more individual stuff
spare venture
alternatively design your server around different mechanics
singleplayer doesn’t translate well to multiplayer
golden gust
plugin idea: virtual farms
spare venture
yeah i thought about that a while ago
had a system designed so that it wasn’t just loot appearing in a chest
golden gust
I've been saying that one for a good year or few 😄
was thinking of basically a gloriful inv UI which would let you do stuff like "feed" your animals
spare venture
however i hate automation so i just started going the route of more manual stuff
warm anchor
People in my server just built at spawn and share farms. Works quite well
spare venture
i.e. sieving gravel to get gunpowder
golden gust
thing would scale the capacity based on a ringed fence would would have NPCs which roam around for the feels
Just, am not really interested in much plugin stuff anymore given that most of the stuff I do work wise is around MC
spare venture
when designing mechanics on my server i try to do two things: encourage active playing that isn’t too grindy, and try not to get stuck in a GUI
lament patio
A very effective strategy in my server was not to whitelist anyone who messed with redstone
Nah, on a serious note, I just make the restrictions very clear in the application process
golden gust
yea, that's part of why I was also semi iffy about it
but, I mean, in part it's not like most beef farms, etc, care
spare venture
i’ve evolved a lot from having an afk farm server
golden gust
but, depends on server type, etc, as to how well that plays out
big issue ofc i that "general server overload" is the biggest unsolvable one
warm anchor
Good technical player can work around it and avoid some of the most heavy farms
warm anchor
But sadly majority of people who build farm is just copying
spare venture
the less automation you have with vanilla mechanics the less your server will lag too
spare venture
yeah
warm anchor
Lol
spare venture
0 ability to adapt to the multiplayer bukkit mechanics
because they don’t know how shit works in the first place
warm anchor
At least for every minimum effort make a ON/OFF switch
And no you don’t need 200k bamboo
golden gust
goood I fucking hate node...
warm anchor
It’s not even a good fuel
spare venture
mfw my pc started and said that it didn’t load correctly, i click continue, it restarts anyway, and now it’s updating my bios
pure fear
minor otter
Better than Vayne yourself
spare venture
i made it
vernal moth
Happy tows-day tuesday
pastel torrent
golden gust
memes
true canyon
There are two things cat doesn't tolerate - bullying anyone over their choice of programming language, and fools who use kotlin
golden gust
I pity the fool who kotlins
what's fun is that the spigot IRC channel used to change "fuck" to kotlin after there was muucho discussion around it
vernal moth
And after the old censor, hypixel, didn't make sense anymore cause agent left irc
ripe sphinx
There are two things cat doesn't tolerate - bullying anyone over their choice o...
Consistency!
vernal moth
does anybody care about my api diff thing?
apparently it has been broken for a while
should be up to date again now
somebody know a new api and can confirm?
void void
I noticed it was outdated a while ago, but thought it was just updated manually
vernal moth
nah monday is my patch day, thats where I schedule all this kinda stuff, renovate, etc
paper adds 243 methods btw
void void
somebody know a new api and can confirm?
getSimulationDistance is there
vernal moth
excluding stuff in our own package of course
get_maven_sources 'https://papermc.io/repo' 3 'com.destroystokyo.paper' 'paper-api' paper-sources.jar
it can't work, lol
ok I give up
jdiff isn't compatible with java 17
Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: com.sun.javadoc.Doclet
and if I don't use java 17 it can't work cause it can't parse switch expressions
solid siren
any idea how to disable bows on spawn or lobby so it is not spammed by arrow
worn crest
any idea how to disable bows on spawn or lobby so it is not spammed by arrow
With a plugin called worldguard
prime coral
charred sleet
Nice little story
lol this is true
lilac moon
enderman farm enchanting area
deep slate bricks looks just like the one block from tinkers construct
beautiful block though
velvet garden
That feeling when you're almost free of static getters but then citizens2 comes through the door like "oh yeah gotta have no-param constructors for traits" ._.
cosmic raft
hm?
neon bramble
That feeling when you're almost free of static getters but then citizens2 comes ...
You could use guice
Nvm
That wouldn't probably work
Well, citizens is at it again
meager tusk
Citizens is terribly made.
vernal moth
nah, its always Wednesdays, 3 weeks
zenith lodge
oh
magic river
The following NEW packages will be installed:
libgnome-desktop-4-1 pkexec polkitd
Can I not?
Oh, I think this is them splitting pkexec in to its own package so maybe I can remove it after the upgrade
Instead of just policykit-1 I have packages for each part
hmm, guess that's not done yet
vernal moth
now my favorite part of the sprint review comes, the performance marketing team presents stuff
maybe I get to see tiktok stuff again, that was fun last time
lmao, the focus on a single product now because it sells like crazy on social media
ashen cliff
Thank you Discord: https://posili.me/i/uHfnCS4S-2022-02-22_13-28-23.png
velvet garden
hm?
what hm xD traits can't have params in constructors since citizens instantiates them via reflection
red timber
umm
what are you doing that you need a static getter for your trait?
you do realise that traits are instantiated per NPC?
red timber
ah forgot that
JavaPlugin.getPlugin(YourPlugin.class) then
iirc that worked fine in onEnable
vernal moth
well, a static getter is faster
but ye that will work in most cases unless you do fancy stuff with class loaders
glass crag
what hm xD traits can't have params in constructors since citizens instantiates ...
You can pass in a supplier to use instead of reflection
I created a blank abstract Base class which the actual trait inherits to satisfy the no-args constructor requirement
marble lark
There are two things cat doesn't tolerate - bullying anyone over their choice o...
wait
didn't cat literally say once that he adores Kotlin
red timber
yep supplier solution is way better
didn't even remember you could do that lol
been too long since i touched minecraft
magic river
heh, from the same episode https://twitter.com/Dawg_in_Houston/status/1496108444155367424
velvet garden
You can pass in a supplier to use instead of reflection
Oh, that's cool 
I'll have to try this, thanks!
why does plugman have to break everything, plugin works fine ->/plugman reload plugin -> e.getInventory().getHolder() instanceof X returns false even though it's supposed to be true
pallid edge
marble lark
why does plugman have to break everything, plugin works fine ->`/plugman reload ...
issue with classloading
reloading a server does some janky stuff that can result in stuff like that (I assume that's what that plugman command does)
magic river
Netflix is going to be $20/month
velvet garden
reloading a server does some janky stuff that can result in stuff like that (I a...
myeah, just wondering if there's any sane way to fix it or just forget about using plugman, tbh I don't need it myself, it's just that our other admins like to use it
ashen cliff
Unload stuff correctly on disable?
solid siren
is there a way to give players like speed boost when they enter a specific world like spawn or lobby
marble lark
listen for PlayerChangedWorldEvent
then when it triggers get the world they're switching to
which you'd do by event.getPlayer().getWorld()
(iirc PlayerChangedWorldEvent#getTo was removed quite some time ago so you'll have to do the above instead)
tropic flame
myeah, just wondering if there's any sane way to fix it or just forget about usi...
honestly, to "fix" it you'd have to change how the JVM fundamentally works
it wasn't exactly made for loading and unloading code on demand - you can do the former easily but not the latter (or at least without eventually getting a chronic headache)
marble lark
you'd only really have the change the classloading code (In practice this would probably mean the code inside share/classfile and share/cds), the JVM runtime itself doesn't really bother when and where code was loaded or unloaded
ashen cliff
marble lark
lmaoo i just realised that
magic river
it wasn't exactly made for loading and unloading code on demand - you can do the...
OSGI 😄
magic river
You have to very carefully keep all your modules isolated from each other, makes working with it a huge PITA but keeps it all very flexible and afaik it can unload stuff cleanly
ashen cliff
Just hire a whole team.
true canyon
Salary range 10-15/hr depending on experience
magic river
Is this a job working on the JVM for Oracle, RedHat, or IBM?
ashen cliff
Some better send that comic.
marble lark
Is this a job working on the JVM for Oracle, RedHat, or IBM?
Job listing for Oracle
specifically the OpenJDK project
magic river
Sounds about right then, must be a senior position
For that kind of position I would expect the pay to be at least $150k/yr
true canyon
That list was "choose two" right?
magic river
Unless it's in the EU, then cut that in half 😛
marble lark
Sounds about right then, must be a senior position
yeah pretty sure it is I couldn't find any junior JVM positions no matter how hard I tried
spare venture
at least $150k/yr? maybe if you’re in kansas
marble lark
For that kind of position I would expect the pay to be at least $150k/yr
that would be enough for me to escape poverty and even retake my previous failed degree at a leisurely pace lmao
and i guess get a new PC that's actually good
my current one has the fan grinding against its insides whenever it powers on
vernal moth
you should be able to escape poverty with way less than that
marble lark
yeah pretty much
also depends if the speculated 150k a year is in US currency
pretty sure it is though
magic river
at least $150k/yr? maybe if you’re in kansas
The average in California for a Senior Software Engineer is $136k
This is a very senior position but also for not for one of the big 6 so I'm not sure you'd get a lot more than that
marble lark
For that kind of position I would expect the pay to be at least $150k/yr
just checked the conversion, that salary equates to about $16810 a month in my local currency
that's a lot
marble lark
That's $12,500 a month in my local currency 😛
yep 12500 USD
marble lark
Is yours CAD?
SGD
vernal moth
now I understand why you aren't impressed by 150k, lol
marble lark
who?
marble lark
5000-8000 SGD from what i remember
12500 USD is more than twice as much as what most people earn here anyway lel
quasi valley
12k is more than twice as much as most people on earth earn
magic river
That's almost twice what I make a month 😛
quasi valley
you don't have to be poor or even above average to be impressed by 150k a year
vernal moth
I was more like hinting at singapore being an expensive city, no?
warm anchor
I guess a lot of people here make 6 figures so it may not seem to be a lot
marble lark
I was more like hinting at singapore being an expensive city, no?
well you're hella right
everything here is costly af
magic river
I probably could make six figures but then I'd have to live somewhere where $200,000 for a house is a steal instead of being on the high end
warm anchor
For a cool million you can buy a toilet sized room in Singapore 
vernal moth
also, typical disclaimer that comparing wages across currencies and countries is useless af
magic river
Hell in those places $200,000 would be the down payment on a house
vernal moth
a 80m2 flat here would cost me half a million
marble lark
For a cool million you can buy a toilet sized room in Singapore <:krappa:7398677...
my old (and honestly still current) home cost my dad like 800k last i remember
now an apartment smaller than where i live is like 1.6 million
magic river
My house is 140m2 and in the current market is still only $120,000 at most
Well, I could probably get more for it, if I put $10,000 in to some cosmetic work first
Not interested in selling though so... I'll get to those eventually 😛
charred sleet
eh i guess singapore doesn’t have much space
marble lark
I probably _could_ make six figures but then I'd have to live somewhere where $2...
200k for a home is ultra cheap here xd
charred sleet
granted i have been there and it seemed pretty open in the north
marble lark
even public housing costs upwards of 600k
warm anchor
You can literally jog across their border in a few hour @charred sleet
From one end to anther
charred sleet
god they must be expesive
marble lark
they used to be dirt cheap until 2020 i think
marble lark
back then no one really considered buying a house there
then that changed pretty recently
sales rocketed pretty high
and with that so did the prices
quasi valley
housing prices are zooming
marble lark
that's a small city for you i guess
marble lark
it's kinda of both city and country anyway xd
the education here is probably on par with south korea in terms of mental health issues lmao
someone did say "It's nice to visit but don't live there" while referring to Japan once
not sure if it holds up for this instance too
warm anchor
It applies to pretty much all Asia countries tbf
I will visit all of them as tourist
charred sleet
lol what happened to google maps, its like they tried to do a 3d look but got it the wrong way up haha
all falling over 😳
marble lark
lmao
warm anchor
You should check Aus it’s all upside down
charred sleet
lol
marble lark
managed to get the chinese swimming club in the view
used to go there and just sit at the arcade machine without actually playing it
i probably looked like a dumbass
warm anchor
Oh no shaerman is one of those
marble lark
<https://www.google.com/maps/@1.304227,103.9103279,2292m/data=!3m1!1e3>
that's decently close to where I live
charred sleet
tell me, are the buildings falling over lol
marble lark
well
warm anchor
I know someone from Singapore
marble lark
if you don't count that one time a hotel imploded on itself in the 1980s I guess not?
warm anchor
We can take Sherman out 
charred sleet
😳
charred sleet
somewhere here
warm anchor
Oh yes
charred sleet
just gotta search like a million people ig
quasi valley
found him https://i.imgur.com/WJV4Qqe.png
marble lark
fuck
warm anchor
As leaf would say, one nuke will be enough
marble lark
somewhere here
?
charred sleet
are you not?
marble lark
not?
quasi valley
somewhere here https://i.imgur.com/SMFDmnh.png
marble lark
yes
warm anchor
TRUE
charred sleet
knenny got it
void void
kenny casually doxing millions of people smh
marble lark
smh my head
warm anchor
we should find Noah next
quasi valley
somewhere here https://i.imgur.com/V8Fq49n.png
warm anchor
Wait Noah is Briti*h ??
quasi valley
no 
smoky cloud
Imagine being British 
(this is sarcasm I am British)
charred sleet
yes
warm anchor
marble lark
Imagine being British <:harold:707266368365658132> (this is sarcasm I am British...
a very angry cat is now approaching your location
charred sleet
i can imagine
twin lagoon
@waxen panther thoughts
warm anchor
I would ping cat but you will need to pay me enough for the risk
smoky cloud
Cat will get lost at the sheer volume of roundabouts my town has
charred sleet
britain is shit
waxen panther
my thoughts on what
untold meadow
@waxen panther thoughts
charred sleet
do not come
waxen panther
there's too many words
void void
my thoughts on what
being british
waxen panther
sorry
warm anchor
Being Briti*h
marble lark
you said you were decently close to there lol
charred sleet
you dont need to dox urself
warm anchor
Sherman really want people to visit him
marble lark
i only gave the location of the train station closest to me
charred sleet
close to the f1 track then
warm anchor
We are hitting it too real for Sherman now
charred sleet
in other news
marble lark
lmao
spare venture
The average in California for a Senior Software Engineer is $136k
huh it just sounded like it would be higher
void void
I doubt Russia's actually gonna do it tbh
they're literally already in ukraine lol
spare venture
entry level is $104k in seattle
marble lark
i know, but i doubt they'll actually start fighting
marble lark
or at least i hope
charred sleet
its not like they need more land
spare venture
politics 😳
magic river
entry level is $104k in seattle
Average for senior in Washington is $149k/yr
spare venture
weird that it doesn’t go up that much
marble lark
im confused as to what they gain
long story short they don't like the idea of NATO being right next to them
charred sleet
long story short they don't like the idea of NATO being right next to them
they should be honoured lol
marble lark
honestly though it'll probably be a compromise
solar meteor
happy 2/22/22 paper people
smoky cloud
marble lark
Putin isn't dumb to start such a devastating conflict + the Russians back at home also don't want a war
spare venture
i wouldn’t assume much about him
i know of another place with similar history: sudetenland
i’m sure we all know it ended there right
marble lark
well... yeah
magic river
It's a pretty common way for imperialists to justify their expansion
spare venture
yup they are protecting those people from the evil illegitimate ukraine regime /s
marble lark
might just be wishful thinking on my part
magic river
30 years ago 85%+ of the people in that region voted for Ukraine to be not Russia
marble lark
but i doubt Putin is extreme to the point that Hitler was
spare venture
why do you doubt that
unkempt drift
Hitler was an ideologue, putin isn’t.
spare venture
he loved a country that collapsed and is now a hollow shell of what it used to be, and now he has a chance to try to restore it to former glory..
unkempt drift
Yeah, but putin can be expected to be much more rational.
unkempt drift
Hitler was irrational, especially towards the end of the war, not using slave labor, but killing millions instead
marble lark
but even if he didn't have the human decency to consider that the decision to go ahead will effectively murder millions of innocent people, there's still his support back home that risks falling
spare venture
but i sure hope no world war is starting over ukraine
marble lark
the Russians (and probably the soldiers currently being deployed rn) don't want to start a war too
cunning raft
Drop it
spare venture
2/22/22*
charred sleet
wow australia is such a spoil sport
ashen cliff
22/02/2022.
charred sleet
kelvin 🤩
foggy silo
It’s twosday innit bro?
smoky cloud
Two for Tuesday
spare venture
<a:clappywappy:755822344253210625>
ok mr upside down man
charred sleet
It’s twosday innit bro?
as a british person, i take offence to this
spare venture
jeoy
viral hornet
ok mr upside down man
WTF
left swift
funny
viral hornet
Where is my australia prefix barry??
ashen cliff
@meager tusk bro!
meager tusk
Bro.
spare venture
sorry camm you don’t get one
meager tusk
What's up?!
magic river
They deleted it
frank otter
yeah that link is not going anywhere
there's a no-call sign one I think in Russia nearish the border
but it's registered under a commercial airline
vague lagoon
There was a drone(?) a while ago on it