folia-help

[arctic tapir]

ur mom

[earnest shore]

hi

[untold juniper]

new Channel

This is Going to be Awesome

[prime juniper]

https://tenor.com/view/panda-shocked-bowl-chopsticks-gif-15979771

[hidden leaf]

hello!

[fiery vessel]

New channel who dia

Dis

[hidden leaf]

nobody here seems to need help yet

[fiery vessel]

DAMN IT

[keen parcel]

not second

[livid crag]

Alright guys, I have the ban hammer knife ready.

[hidden leaf]

fifteenth

[scenic sky]

is folia good for my smp with 4 players running on a cpu with 6 cores 12 threads?

[fiery vessel]

Whoa whoa whoa

[untold juniper]

xiaomi??

[livid crag]

you may run at degraded performance; however, if you have a niche need of having multiple region having its own mobspawning logic, yes.

[dreamy dirge]

⚠️ Please do not share any links to builds of Folia at this time. We are intentionally not providing easy to find/obtain downloads right now - when the time is right, everything will be available through official PaperMC distributions.

[scenic sky]

all players are mostly in the same area

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme: https://github.com/PaperMC/Folia#readme
• FAQ: https://github.com/PaperMC/Folia/blob/master/README.md#faq
• Regionising logic: https://github.com/PaperMC/Folia/blob/master/REGION_LOGIC.md
• Detailed overview: https://github.com/PaperMC/Folia/blob/master/PROJECT_DESCRIPTION.md

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[hidden leaf]

interesting

[fair merlin]

For the public test we had:

2x 480GB SSD
10x 6.4TB NVMe
2TB RAM (500GB allocated to Folia)
25TB Bandwidth
25Gbps Network```

We had 327 concurrent players on a mostly out of the box config setup.

(Note: the server had 2x 7713s but we disabled one. NUMA is not supported.)

[hidden leaf]

cranberry sauce

[ionic cradle]

Already building on my fork, what do you want to do?

[hidden leaf]

[Larry pinned a message to this channel]

[ionic cradle]

💀

[hidden leaf]

lmao

i wanted the sauce pinned

[livid crag]

it should all taken care off

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[livid crag]

[fair merlin]

#folia-testing message GC chart for the public test

[fair merlin]

Quick like bunny Larry

[oak gull]

nibble nibble

[hidden leaf]

Larry is awesome

[viral coral]

#folia-testing message Public test results with 300+ players

[oak gull]

(that's the noise bunnies make)

[scenic sky]

i love larry

[hidden leaf]

Larry will pin this

lol doesn't seem to work any more

[viral coral]

you can cut the pin this stuff now

stay on topic

[hidden leaf]

:p hopefully it will become on-topic soon

sorry

[oak gull]

So here's a fun fact:

if you're reading this, there's a very high likelihood folia will not help your server

in fact, it probably won't even run

[mystic marsh]

Will folia be incorporated into the normal paper?

[oak gull]

no

[wicked mantle]

jokes on u larry

[mystic marsh]

How come?

[oak gull]

too much breaks (all plugins, for example) so it won't be normal paper merged ever

[livid crag]

it will continue on as its own fork @mystic marsh as it is not for everyone.

[mystic marsh]

oh I see

[oak gull]

AN OUTLIER

[hidden leaf]

my pc hasn't exploded

[viral coral]

this is nothing?

[livid crag]

Larry owns a datacenter in his backyard

[oak gull]

I have 2tb of DDR69 RAM in my drawer

so much memory it remembers the future

[wicked mantle]

michael, I do not have a way to rent a 256 core system smh

[jovial helm]

you haven't gotten to the magic smoke step first

[finite hinge]

In theory some day after hard fork if Folia is really stable, plugins are commonly supporting it, and the overhead ends up not being so bad or can be reduced I could see it getting merged

But probably not

[viral coral]

aslong as you keep believing in it

you do

[hidden leaf]

LOL

[wicked mantle]

Well I mean, I know where to, but I don't have funds to

[hidden leaf]

i notice nothing

my pc hasn't exploded

[ionic cradle]

Download folia here: https://github.com/NotMyFault/Folia/suites/11901607768/artifacts/622911022

[hidden leaf]

i'm guessing my hardware simply can't take advatage of it

[oak gull]

lmao

[scenic sky]

i was expecting a sponsor link to be behind that

disappointed

[oak gull]

probably best to not even pretend to have a link

PSA: WE DO NOT HAVE FOLIA JARS FOR YOU

[hidden leaf]

i wish github actions had a "rickroll" option

[ionic cradle]

The link works for me 🙃

[jovial helm]

https://github.com/lucko/spark/tree/feat/folia

[hidden leaf]

heh

probably because it's your repo

[ionic cradle]

You are welcome to support me regardless 🙏

[scenic sky]

i have sponsored you enough already

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Folia will:

• NOT be backported to older versions <1.19.4
• NOT be merged into Paper
• NOT be ported to Fabric nor Forge

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[ionic cradle]

I pressed x and doubted

[arctic tapir]

what about Quilt????

[oak gull]

no port

@arctic tapir

no

[echo vessel]

yeah

[scenic sky]

i bought plotsquared like 3 years ago, hows that?

[arctic tapir]

guess you’ll need to update the message again

[oak gull]

no :D

@arctic tapir

[arctic tapir]

who replied to this message

[wicked mantle]

I am also the 5%, of a different chart

[shell violet]

just wait 10 minutes for ppc64le to get on there

[arctic tapir]

ty discord being discord like usual

[dreamy dirge]

⚠️ Please do not share any links to builds of Folia at this time. We are intentionally not providing easy to find/obtain downloads right now - when the time is right, everything will be available through official PaperMC distributions.

[ivory sentinel]

For proper understanding, Github says that a minimum of 16 cores is recommended, which would cost us $250+ at OVH.

Most of the performance problems we have with chunk loading, i.e. players exploring the world with Elytras very quickly.
Our server currently has "only" 8 cores/16 threads, so would Folia not be an option for us at this time? (Small SMP with 10-30 player max)
Thanks in advance!

[arctic tapir]

it would not

use paper

[finite hinge]

Chunk loading is already threaded for that case

This is for ticking chunks after they're loaded (and the entities and such in them)

[viral coral]

a small smp is unlikely to be the target for folia

[livid crag]

only for very very very niche use

[prime juniper]

guys how to build this

[livid crag]

aka if you want your mobsapwning like single player @ivory sentinel

[viral coral]

https://github.com/PaperMC/Paper/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md

[scenic sky]

im wondering how you are having performance problems with 10 players

[exotic leaf]

Hetzher 120 euro, 16 cores for you

[zealous marsh]

The question is, what plugins are currently already working on Folia?

[ivory sentinel]

I see, we tried Chunk Pre-Loading but it made the world size very very large. 400GB+

Ticking like Automated Farms, Mob Farms etc?
Or just the normal "single player" experience?

[scenic sky]

the ones that claim to work with it atleast

and some really simple ones

[viral coral]

luckperms, spark, viaversion, coreprotect and more have already started to implement or have already implemented it

[chrome mural]

So for implementing this into a existing linux server. I Have a bunch of settings changed in many of the files.

What files would i in theory need to replace from the folia server, and overwrite in the paper server to make the changes work?

[near crater]

PlaceholderAPI is like 80% done. It loads and parses placeholders, but some logic has been disabled until it's done.

[livid crag]

Chestshop, FAWE, Chunky, and even essentials too!

[dreamy dirge]

spark migration

The Timings profiler that has been bundled with Paper for many years has been scheduled to be removed.

PaperMC has plans to bundle spark with the server in the future.

You may continue using the Timings profiler while it is supported, but may be requested to provide a spark profile when requesting support.

For more information, please visit Paper issue #8948.

[viral coral]

the server jar

[zealous marsh]

SPARK!!!

[livid crag]

well kinda related but Folia does not have timing to begin with.

[marsh yew]

spark's just better

[viral coral]

and 99% of your plugins

[ivory sentinel]

We have been to Hetzner, but they say the connection is not great for gaming, even though the support is very good.
OVH was recommended to us and is used by many German servers. But yes Hetzner is unbeatable in price / performance.

[north sluice]

Does folia work with paper plugins?

[viral coral]

aslong as they have folia-supported set to true in plugin.yml or paper-plugin.yml

yes

[scenic sky]

almost all EU minecraft servers use hetzner

its crazy

[livid crag]

Paper team worked closely with the nice developers of spark months before this push. A lot of feature you seem are suggestions from Paper and lucko made it happen! We will never take something away without a replacement that's ready!

[ivory sentinel]

no, only if they reworked/adjusted for it

[zealous marsh]

Question, is it possible to see on the forum in the plugins section a filter that is responsible for the fact that the plugin supports Folia?

[fair merlin]

Paper plugins will probably not work on Folia by default. Plugins will have to be modified to explicitly work on Folia.

You can try tossing your plugin on it and seeing if it runs, though.

[daring nimbus]

there will be a filter on Hangar

[livid crag]

that is planned and will likely be on hangar. yes

[scenic sky]

is jroy's chatcolor2 ready?

[livid crag]

A lot of things are going on behind the scene and you just have to wait!

[hexed ice]

jokni when will you be releasing chatcolor3

[scenic sky]

soon

[ivory sentinel]

The gaming bandwidth and the protection for DDOs attacks should not be optimal, even if most of the extren protection provider.
Nevertheless, Hetzner is not suitable for gaming, at least I was told by several and the support team. I myself had few problems, just not 376 players to try it out haha

[hybrid shore]

leet's gooo

[chrome mural]

thats it? nothing else?

Oh also I know it suggests being in a server with 16 cores. but as for lower end servers with 2-6 cores would this also in theory speed up timings and (from what i assume) reduce the likelihood of the "server is running 100ms slow or 1478912 ticks behind" from happening?

thats asked stupidly but i think you get what im trying to ask

[scenic sky]

hetzner is just fine for gaming, probably a misunderstanding from the support?

ddos protection being mediocre is valid though

[ivory sentinel]

Was this self-hosted / own server in the data center? Or do you have a specialized server provider?

[rare steppe]

Vultr

[finite hinge]

Folia only helps if you have people spread out enough to have multiple regions and enough CPU cores to actually run those regions at the same time

It won't make your farms faster it'll just make your farms not slow down someone 1000 blocks away from them

[rare steppe]

https://gyazo.com/4f58c45bff50dfa64bcf40ed9277899c

[fair merlin]

it was a Vultr server rental for a few hours

[finite hinge]

Unless your farms kill your OS because your hardware is underpowered

[oak gull]

yes, I imagine so, but as for how, you'll need to ask in #folia-dev

[fair merlin]

No.

[oak gull]

what

[fair merlin]

Oh with a plugin, sure

But like a config?

[silent python]

🎉

[oak gull]

lmao no with plugin only

[ivory sentinel]

Thanks for the info, very heavy but of course necessary for such a performance test.

[livid crag]

it was also partly for show and see just how well it would go with the best of the best hardware.

think about it, it will be the only plugin that supports it 😉

[chrome mural]

ok so a server for like 15 people, with elitemobs (adds custom arenas, worlds, and adventure maps. all in other worlds (has a seperate map folder in the server files) on a 4 core server wouldnt really benefit much?

And i didnt mean it by that. I wasnt asking if it would speed up the farms my wording was a bit off sorry

[livid crag]

it may yes

[ivory sentinel]

Good invested 50$ if it was rented only for a few hours.

[fair merlin]

As the FAQ says: you need 16 CPU cores minimum

[viral coral]

was quite a bit more than that

lol ratelimited

[finite hinge]

Not enough CPU cores most likely and Folia doesn't support loading extra worlds right now

[livid crag]

there is no "preorder" or "reserve" @viral coral was lucky enough to see it available, he has to rent them a day before and you are charged every hour and cannot stop it until server is deleted.

so yes it was a lot more than $50

[ionic cradle]

@paper siren The faster you update it, the sooner we can test it on one of my 9654 epycs 👏

[floral oyster]

I've been seeing some people posting around about Folia not being worth it unless you have 300+ concurrent players. Is it so simple, or would 100 concurrent players still benefit? Been seeing a lot of doom-posting lol

[viral coral]

aslong as you have the hardware and the right server type for it

sure

[livid crag]

the defination of "worth it" or not is really on you

[finite hinge]

It'll benefit 10 players if you run on a powerful machine and each player is off doing their own thing in the world

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Folia will:

• NOT be backported to older versions <1.19.4
• NOT be merged into Paper
• NOT be ported to Fabric nor Forge

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[viral coral]

readme contains info on whether it's right for your server type

[finite hinge]

If those 100 players are in an arena or something Folia won't help

[ivory sentinel]

understand, fortunately there are many community supporters and sponsors! <3

[charred depot]

are there any numbers as to how many players could theoretically be on one server with no tps drops, or does it come down to hardware now that there can be as many threads as the cpu can handle?

[finite hinge]

You need people to be separated enough to actually get multiple regions created

[viral coral]

try it and see

plugins will still affect performance, hardware etc.

we hit 330 players at 20tps

[finite hinge]

327 people trying to kill the server couldn't in our testing

[viral coral]

up to someone else to beat that

[finite hinge]

Although one one was trying to break it by spawning 1 million bees or something

[real heart]

just set the render distance really really low and then you should be able to beat it

and peaceful mode

[finite hinge]

iirc one region did basically die but everyone else was fine

[viral coral]

i would never

[livid crag]

yeah it was impressive af no one crashed our public testing....

you know they DO BE TRYING

[charred depot]

so if a mob moves from one chunk to another on another thread, they just change threads somehow?

[viral coral]

see the regionising logic document

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Folia will:

• NOT be backported to older versions <1.19.4
• NOT be merged into Paper
• NOT be ported to Fabric nor Forge

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[oak gull]

linked there ^

[charred depot]

alright will read through thanks

[livid crag]

you know leaf wrote all that doc but he STILL cant update chunk doc in good o' paper

[tranquil epoch]

it died often

those issues have been resolved though

[finite hinge]

Yeah I meant died like tanked the server tickrate

[drowsy briar]

speedrun for folia egg pterodactyl?

[finite hinge]

Crashes were expected

[viral lodge]

Will Folia make any difference running on a server made for at most 30 people on at once? Looking to run this on an always on m2 pro mac mini (10 cores). i also know they suggest 16 cores, so would any lower not be beneficial?

[tranquil epoch]

oh the tickrate never really died

[fair merlin]

As the FAQ says, you want 16 CPU cores.

[finite hinge]

It depends, if those 30 people are all off on their own playing singleplayer most of the time it might help

[tranquil epoch]

FAQ number is adjusted for non-pregenerated world

can probably be ok with 12 but you're pushing 8 with non-pregenerated

[charred depot]

ahh it says cpu cores required roughly for folia
netty IO :~4 per 200-300 players
chunk system io threads: ~3 per 200-300 players
chunk system workers if pre-generated, ~2 per 200-300 players

[tranquil epoch]

you do need other threads on the server, as it notes

[livid crag]

Folia*

[trail briar]

Is the are any instructions how to make a build?

[shell violet]

see the paper repo, same instructions apply

[fair merlin]

The contributing guide for Paper does, yeah

[finite hinge]

Note that if you aren't a programmer you almost certainly don't want to be running this right now

You can probably run Folia on a VM with 1 core it'll just be slow 😛

[hidden leaf]

it seems to work on my pc 😛

*bad pc

no smoke (yet)

[tranquil epoch]

there are no core limits preventing boot or even warnings

[finite hinge]

The recommendations are for when you might want to even consider Folia over Paper

[fair merlin]

In theory, yes. But for testing it might die. So YMMV

[hidden leaf]

we don't want a -Dcom.destroysomething.folia.IReallyKnowWhatImDoingISwear=true

[daring nimbus]

Not sure if worth reporting as an issue or not: Loading a corrupt or invalid chunk (for example, height too large, broken heightmaps, etc) on Folia instantly crashes the server. On Paper it does not, you just get console errors

[viral coral]

might be worth sending said chunk

well, region

[livid crag]

its worth reporting

[daring nimbus]

Pretty sure its not chunk specific. Just tried it with changing the height & then removing the datapack again

alright, gonna make an issue then

[oak gull]

report it with repro-steps if you can, Malf

[chilly gate]

are command blocks woking?

[viral coral]

should be

[jovial helm]

All vanilla features should be working

[shell violet]

nah there are commands disabled

[chilly gate]

they doesn't work for me

[jovial helm]

Anything else? Good to know what isn't

[viral coral]

thought they worked somewhere during the test

[chilly gate]

normal commands work

[oak gull]

/execute might not all work

[short wind]

Will Fiola use less RAM with the way it operates?

[oak gull]

no

[scenic sky]

ram should be the least of your concerns with folia lol

[oak gull]

#folia-testing message

this was our GC for the public test

not that it needs 500gb

[tranquil epoch]

probably uses similar amounts of ram

[oak gull]

but it's not magic

[short wind]

RAM is always a concern for me lol, but always happy if there's improvements 😉

[scenic sky]

then folia isnt for you

[short wind]

very nice saw pattern

[kind cliff]

If folia has its own tick regions what happens to force loaded chunks?

[short wind]

I like TPS too

[oak gull]

tps is per-region now

[tranquil epoch]

force loaded chunks load the chunk and the result isn't much different to players loading chunks

[shell violet]

https://github.com/PaperMC/Folia/blob/master/patches/server/0004-Threaded-Regions.patch#L10912-L10999

[kind cliff]

So it’s just gonna be it’s own tick region as well?

[shell violet]

also command blocks disabled (https://github.com/PaperMC/Folia/blob/master/patches/server/0004-Threaded-Regions.patch#L20170)

I think all actual gameplay features should work though?

but datapacks certainly won't

at least one with functions

[tranquil epoch]

credits don't work

[oak gull]

social credit system ?

broken?

@livid crag

[fiery vessel]

The credits?

[tranquil epoch]

yeah credits disabled

the game typically pulls the player out of the world to do credits

[oak gull]

like, ender dragon defeat credits?

hahaha

[tranquil epoch]

but in folia if you do it then the player doesn't tick

[livid crag]

leaf on behave of CCP you should reenable credit ... wait wut

[tranquil epoch]

the scheduler wont tick for them

[fiery vessel]

Well, you learn something every day

[tranquil epoch]

and the connection wont tick

[jovial helm]

Out of the world? Like worldless?

[tranquil epoch]

and it's just a mess

[ivory sentinel]

he played this game in speedrun haha

[livid crag]

someone should open an issue as placeholder for that issue anyway.

[proven tinsel]

Just wanted to say thanks for making Folia, very cool server tech.

[lone stratus]

should definitely be a tracker somewhere with all known things that don't work, either intentionally or non intentionally

[untold juniper]

Folia ftw

[fair merlin]

A few more frequently asked questions:

"Q: Do I need Folia?"

A: Folia is designed for higher end servers. So if you aren't sure: probably not. Stick with Paper until you know exactly why you'd use Folia```

```json
"Q: Can I run this on my 4 core hosted server?"

A: No, you need 16 CPU cores (32 CPU threads) to run Folia.```

```json
"Q: Do I really need 16 CPU Cores/32 CPU threads? Will it run on less?"

A: It will boot on less but it won't sustain players. You can run it on lower core hardware for plugin testing and development.```

```json
"Q: Does it make sense to run this for 100 players for a minigame in a 200x200 area?"

A: No, Folia is better with players spread out to benefit from the multithreaded regions.```

```json
"Q: Will it work with 50 players spread out around a 50k radius world?"

A: Yes! Each spread out region will benefit from Folia's multithreading. Folia generally wants players to be at least 1500 blocks away from each other at all times to work best.```

```json
"Q: What about my 20 Core Apple M1 Ultra?"

A: We don't know yet, but it's probably not going to run as well as on x86. If you try it let us know.```

```json
"Q: Will Folia use less RAM than Paper?"

A: Folia is designed for more powerful systems so it is designed to use more RAM than Paper.```

[finite hinge]

It might be its own tick region, it might not, depends on what/who is around it

[gloomy vessel]

Am I missing something, or are the coordinates for the regions incorrectly calculated?
I am at 10.000 y 10.000, which should be the top shown region. I have added the chunkCenter position to the text for better visualization on whats going on.
Clicking it will teleport to the displayed (presumably incorrect) coordinates!
|| They appear to be ~factor of 16 wrong 🤷 ||

[finite hinge]

Region doesn't mean MC region

[hybrid shore]

Is it possible to configure that regions can be created earlier than ~ 1500 blocks from another player?

[finite hinge]

It means some arbitrary isolated area of the world

Isolated means more than view-distance plus some buffer away from another region, more or less

[fair merlin]

Yeah to Folia "regions" are "groups of chunks I put together because they're active and nearby"

It has a bunch of internal logic to select how that's done.

[finite hinge]

The "region around" stuff is talking about the block and chunk coordinates that region is centered on

[gloomy vessel]

Yeah, that's not my problem. My issue is that I would expect, when I click on that message, that I would get teleported near my current location (which should be in the top region)

[rancid pendant]

no

[hybrid shore]

And will there be a possibility?

[finite hinge]

I dunno, this is starting to sound like #folia-dev and/or a github issue talk

[visual falcon]

Wait is it still best to use G1GC for Folia? Or will there be a new flags recommended for Folia?

[tranquil epoch]

haha they are wrong

[rancid pendant]

no

[tranquil epoch]

I'll fix this in a sec

[fair merlin]

Bug of chunks.

[covert sluice]

Will folia ever support less than 16 cores?

[hybrid shore]

srsly?...

[fair merlin]

See pins

:)

[tranquil epoch]

it returns the center region section, not the center chunk

[covert sluice]

I’m asking for in the future

[fair merlin]

As the FAQ and pins say, it's designed for higher end stuff

It's not designed for smaller systems, so no

[finite hinge]

If anything it'll require more cores in the future, software doesn't usually get lower requirements over time

It'll run on lower setups but it might hurt performance instead of help

[scenic sky]

everyone wanted multithreading and now its too multithreaded

[livid crag]

I mean tbf if your multi threaded setup only has 5 threads it ain’t gonna do much

[ivory sentinel]

I think I'll have to start a second job to buy Folia compatible hardware.
But still very exciting and I will follow the progress with interest. Great work!

[livid crag]

Should be thankful that it will still boot lol

[covert sluice]

Still more than one thread no?

[livid crag]

Yeah but naturally Paper already use other threads for stuff

So your break off point isn’t gonna be 5 or 6 more

[finite hinge]

Folia running on fewer cores might have better tickrates but slower chunk loading or higher latency

[fiery vessel]

I can't get a machine with enough threads but if it could just isolate the TPS issues, it'd be amazing. Guess I'll just have to wait and see how it performs on lower end hardware.

[finite hinge]

Or just be slower all around

I can confirm Folia runs on an M1 Max 😄

No idea how good it is, I just started it so it'd show up on bstats

[livid crag]

Take a while yeah

I am the server with 32t on bstat rn

[stark agate]

due to chunk loading and networking being already multithreaded?

[finite hinge]

Right, in Paper chunk loading and networking are already multithreaded

If you add more threads for region ticking but don't have more cores to support them they're stealing cycles from those other tasks

[livid crag]

In addition to stuff like mob spawn logic @stark agate being independently each region

[stark agate]

oh, yeah, I recall that

[livid crag]

So i can see niche usage of small server tankin soem performance degration for that

Worth it? Maybe maybe not. It’s up to the server owner to decide

[mortal fox]

What is the recommended way to play test Folia Plugins if one currently does not have access to a computer with 16 cores?

[fair merlin]

See pins

You can run it on a lower core system, it just won't run great or play well

So for basic testing go for it

[visual falcon]

Well I’m sure you can test on lower, but probably not recommended.

[mortal fox]

Thanks

[daring nimbus]

I've just tested Folia on a 6 core CPU. I can confirm that there is a certain point at which it will be completely bottlenecked by the low core count. Most noticeable with chunk loading being almost completely stuck as soon as more than 25-30 regions are loaded.
So yeah, that recommendation of >16 cores sounds pretty realistic based on my limited testing

[livid crag]

It is still added complexity and overhead yeah

[daring nimbus]

With less than 30 players it seemed to work, but thats a playercount Paper handles perfectly fine. So yeah, Folia is for big servers for sure

[livid crag]

Paper can handle around 60-80 vanilla-like config

Up to around 200 with those sadge big server config

Then yes Folia

[stark agate]

I have not inspected the code of Folia, so I don't know the memory model, but I could see a case where multithreading could in theory result in better resource management by the OS?

[fair merlin]

Better than what, though?

You're inherently using more resources than Paper, so it's not really a case of "I can use Folia to save memory over Paper"

You need more cores and more RAM, and you're taking advantage of those cores and RAM.

Right now Paper can't do that.

[covert sluice]

So is it better for server performance to not use folia, or downgrade single core performance but get a 16 core processor?

[fair merlin]

There's no good easy answer for that. It depends.

[oak gull]

If you're above 200 players on a server, Folia will start to perform better than any paper option, but will require more hardware etc

[livid crag]

Ideally you should be using Paper if you are asking that

[daring nimbus]

and you still want some single core performance - lots of people might be in one region

[fair merlin]

But yeah, this is probably true ^

If you aren't sure, you should use Paper.

[oak gull]

psa use paper unless you know exactly why you need to use folia?

[fair merlin]

Haha

[stark agate]

probably worth it to put it in FAQ lol

[oak gull]

@fair merlin get on it

[lucid pagoda]

The word "multithreaded" probably attracts a lot of people that don't know what they are doing

[fair merlin]

Done!

I was formatting

[oak gull]

nice

your wording is not my wording

I reject it

it's dead to me

[fair merlin]

Okay I accept rewrites

[oak gull]

Use Paper unless you know exactly why you need to use Folia

[fair merlin]

Oh I see

[oak gull]

for the last sentence

[fair merlin]

Standby

Fixed

Agreed yours is better.

[oak gull]

good stuff no longer dead to me

[fair merlin]

The adage of "If you don't know why you need this, you don't" is true here for sure

[stark agate]

idea is that OS could assign CPU time from less utilized cores? really need to inspect the multithreading in Folia lol

[livid crag]

Please do not fight with English major. You will not win

[fair merlin]

Less utilized cores than what, though?

Like I said, you're using more cores than Paper.

[stark agate]

curiosity is killing me, but 2 AM is not a good time to jump down a rabbit hole

[fair merlin]

So you aren't "saving" anything, per se.

What Folia allows is for you to use more resources to run more players with better performance.

It's not for 4 cores / slower systems.

[arctic tapir]

what about 5 cores

or 4.5

[oak gull]

**it's like running a full copy of paper per region. but at the same time it's not quite like that. Hope this analogy helps. **

[fair merlin]

Don't shitpost in help channels cas

[arctic tapir]

sorrrryy

[fair merlin]

This would be like owning a very fast car but only having a single driveway that's 40 feet long. Sure you could drive it the 40 feet, but why would you? You want the wide open road.

Folia wants a large system with a lot of resources.

Then it can run better than Paper can on similar resources.

[stark agate]

oh, that makes more sense, thanks

[fair merlin]

But for 4/8/whatever cores it's going to run slower.

[oak gull]

oh wow I'm glad that helped

and surprised

[fair merlin]

haha

The best part of the public test was seeing a region straight up crash and die, and people 2000 blocks away playing just fine.

[foggy blaze]

that's actually really cool

[stark agate]

Folia is incredibly niche, but incredibly cool at the same time

[fair merlin]

On Paper that would crash the server. But you need the cores to be able to run that.

[stark agate]

looking forward to adoption by big servers

[fair merlin]

Niche but cool.

[foggy blaze]

in order to "reboot" the region, people would just have to go back to those coords right?
I know regions are more fluid and don't just "boot" on and off

[livid crag]

Someone contact fitMC

[oak gull]

fit mc is not here

I would have pinged. sorry.

[foggy blaze]

bruh as soon as 2btb get's their hands on this...

[lucid pagoda]

rip this server if he makes a video

[covert sluice]

Nah 2b makes too much money with their queue

[fair merlin]

Good question. During the public test we had to restart it because it didn't crash gracefully.

In theory right now it'll just tank tps on that region until it's better.

[oak gull]

@tranquil epoch will make things better. he will let regions restart gracefully.

[foggy blaze]

haha but they could still add folia so that the experience as a whole improves

without getting rid of the queue

[foggy blaze]

❤️

[visual falcon]

He is a goat.

[oak gull]

🐐

[livid crag]

The lag machine rendering useless part alone is worth tbh

[oak gull]

baaaba ababaaaaa aaa

[night mesa]

what are the recommended JVM flags for folia?

[arctic tapir]

nothing specific atm

[charred depot]

how can we try Folia? I see the github but the jar.bat file doesn't run properly

[arctic tapir]

build it yourself

[foggy blaze]

okay cool! Yeah it's super dope that one part of the server just eats shit but it doesn't effect anyone else! The magic of ⭐ scalability ⭐

[fair merlin]

You need to build it to run it. the paper repo build instructions should work.

[carmine leaf]

I could see this becoming the standard for large survival servers. really cool

[lucid pagoda]

Oh yeah, once regions get merged do they get split again after some time if possible? How does that work?

[fair merlin]

It's magic

That's a Leaf question

[livid crag]

It’s outlined in the repo. Read read read!

[foggy blaze]

I think the github also specifically mentions something about what criteria must be met for a region to split

[lucid pagoda]

Oh I haven't looked at that yet, maybe I should

[foggy blaze]

you should

[red lintel]

Anyone has a server jar that I can test? I'm not yet knowledgeable on how to build a jar from a source

[viral coral]

you probably wouldn't want folia yet then

[dreamy dirge]

⚠️ Please do not share any links to builds of Folia at this time. We are intentionally not providing easy to find/obtain downloads right now - when the time is right, everything will be available through official PaperMC distributions.

[red lintel]

I see, I was just here to test it out so I can report any bugs.

Do we have an ETA for the public builds release?

[fair merlin]

Nope.

[oak gull]

no eta never

[fair merlin]

We never really have ETAs for anything.

[oak gull]

ETAs are a myth

[dreamy dirge]

⚠️ Please do not share any links to builds of Folia at this time. We are intentionally not providing easy to find/obtain downloads right now - when the time is right, everything will be available through official PaperMC distributions.

[red lintel]

Ok, ok. I'll remember that.

[night mesa]

so far using folia im impressed its actually running quite stable so far

[red lintel]

I'll just EAT my breakfast lmao.

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Folia will:

• NOT be backported to older versions <1.19.4
• NOT be merged into Paper
• NOT be ported to Fabric nor Forge

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[oak gull]

here's info for those who have not read all the above links yet

[fair merlin]

(And there's stuff in pins also)

[oak gull]

of course you'd shill your little informal miniFAQ

[fair merlin]

(Some of which was co-written by Larry)

[oak gull]

well, you deserve to

it's great

[night mesa]

should I be using aikar flags or just none for now?

[livid crag]

Yes

[night mesa]

yes to what? I kinda asked two questions sorry

[oak gull]

use aikar flag

[night mesa]

[fair merlin]

Yeah those flags should be fine for now.

[oak gull]

until larry flags drop

[golden mica]

That’s great!

[night mesa]

[keen parcel]

larry flags when

[oak gull]

no etas

[keen parcel]

crying in the club rn

[golden mica]

No eta but hope it coming soon

[charred depot]

alright once I compile this, if I was to copy an existing paper server and then just replace the jar with folia what should happen?

[viral coral]

your plugins won't load

that's it

[charred depot]

ah alright

[oak gull]

command blocks will also break

and the end credits after you kill the dragon won't happen

[wicked mantle]

and a handful of commands

[daring nimbus]

Is there a list of things that break somewhere?

[oak gull]

my mind

but it's incomplete

[charred depot]

are those things that are still being worked on or?

[somber jolt]

so I'm reading the github pages, it talks alot about the schedulers but how much is actually required to convert a plugin to work with folia? (obviously you'd have to ensure your code is thread-safe, but I more mean API side)

[oak gull]

only leaf knows all

[daring nimbus]

Can you put your mind on Github please

[livid crag]

No Larry no. No mind break

If you want to start a list that would be epic @daring nimbus

[daring nimbus]

Theres also a todo.txt that has some stuff

[oak gull]

anything in the plugin that works with the scheduler or relies on it or otherwise interacts with the world will need to be looked at and partially or completely rewritten

it depends on the plugin

[somber jolt]

right okay, I saw for example entity.teleport is deprecated in requirement of teleportAsync, that makes sense- does it also mean that other methods which shouldn't be used are deprecated and that removing all those would be a relatively good guide to knowing whether your plugin will work or is it still trial and error at this stage

[daring nimbus]

Might make sense to make a github issue with that (so leaf can edit it too). But probably better if someone from the paper team does this

[oak gull]

eternity should do it

[daring nimbus]

I agree

[wicked mantle]

I too nominate eternity

[livid crag]

a....are you sure about that...? https://github.com/PaperMC/Paper/pull/8949#issuecomment-1486124779
|| eternity when asked to approve ||

[daring nimbus]

that looks like you are very qualified for the job

[wicked mantle]

[tranquil epoch]

resolved by latest

@daring nimbus fixed your issue

[daring nimbus]

that was quick now its at 0 open issues again, Folia confirmed perfect

[wicked mantle]

give it time

[silver sierra]

I should open an issue about no task execution between ticks

[tranquil epoch]

I'll open an issue internally about you

[daring nimbus]

Did you just volunteer for creating an issue listing all the things that don't work?

[silver sierra]

already got one open for you don't worry

[fair merlin]

It's not really recommended to toss it on a live active world. Still unstable so there could be bugs or data corruption or something. If you're going to experiment with it make sure to take backups.

[gilded adder]

Can’t wait to try it out

[little bone]

Folia in beta or this full realise?

[sudden tusk]

Did you read the announcement?

[viral coral]

if it was a full release you'd have a download link for it

[little bone]

Ok

[graceful bear]

Does Folia generate the regular paper config files or something else. I just don't seem to be able to identify the config files

[livid crag]

they are the same, correct.

they will be inside /config/ folder in your server root directory

[graceful bear]

ok thanks

I had looked their but on first glance I didn't see enough of a difference for me to think it was. I chose to come ask rather than read the full file 🤦‍♂️

[livid crag]

We are here to help. No worries

[slate owl]

So if I wanted to test each of our current plugins on our server with Folia, I should ask my developers to add folia-supported: true to the plugin yml? Does Folia require all plugins to use a specific database type like other "sharding" jars do? This sounds very different to sharding, excited to see what comes of it

[viral coral]

1. yes 2. no

[slate owl]

I guess I don't quite understand the "They do not share data, they do not expect to share data, and sharing of data will cause data corruption" part of it. Does this mean 2 regions should never interact with each other physically, or via plugins like Towny or Lands

[scarlet burrow]

for the broken API section of the readme, does this include specifically the API or anything to do with the bukkit API in terms of world gen? (will this cause regular, unmodified worlds not to load properly?)

[livid crag]

Folia's approach is very different from those sharding servers. Instead of bandaid bunch of smaller server together and hope it doesnt fall apart, Folia is more like a proper divides within a server so stuff generally dont need those additional hacky way to make things appear normal

[inner swift]

Just loading worlds specifically through the api, with plugins

[slate owl]

Yeah sounds almost like its running plugins "independently" per region?

I assume not, but the way it treats their data

[scarlet burrow]

thank you 💖

[daring nimbus]

its running entities per region, as well as the region themselves. And plugins would need to consider that

[slate owl]

Okay, makes sense. A setting in a plugin that has a limit of mobs per world per se, would now need to define per region

[livid crag]

correct and the scope of update needed depend on the plugin, its best to ask nicely if the plugin is public but allow time for developer to work out and decide if it's worthy for them to spend time to support it.

[daring nimbus]

I was more thinking about something like Towny. For example if a player teleports, Towny might check the target destination of the teleport for something. But with Folia, that target destination might run an entirely different thread than the player teleporting

[slate owl]

Right, I am lucky to have a team of developers, but I can see how this might be hard to access for owners that run free plugins. I am sure once a method is developed then developers will follow in sync

[slate owl]

Right, Towny would somehow need to store the data internally of what region something is in

Does a player load when going to different regions?

As in, a connection screen?

[arctic tapir]

no

[somber jolt]

that's no different to how it is now, if they're loading new chunks then they'll go to a loading screen, as in, far away

[shell violet]

two ticking regions don't collide

if they get close to each other the regions will merge into one

[daring nimbus]

regions are dynamic. so no, thats not it

[arctic tapir]

what

[somber jolt]

players wont get a loading screen moving between regions usually, but going between worlds they will

[slate owl]

Weird, now I'm even more confused I'm sure it will make sense when trying some stuff

[somber jolt]

same way it works regularly

[silver sierra]

besides making sure your own code is thread safe devs need to read the documents in the repo and ensure all state is accessed using a task on the correct scheduler

[arctic tapir]

you said something else

[somber jolt]

that's what I meant then-

[fair merlin]

No, moving through regions works just like Paper.

[somber jolt]

yeah

[fair merlin]

Moving through worlds does also.

[somber jolt]

that's exactly what I said

[somber jolt]

here

[somber jolt]

and initially, "no different to how it is now"

[fair merlin]

Yeah this part was confusing.

[silver sierra]

yeah but your description of what happens regularly was off

[somber jolt]

apologies

[silver sierra]

you only see a loading screen when switching dimensions

[fair merlin]

^

[somber jolt]

ah yeah that's what I was going for

[silver sierra]

when teleporting far away at worst you'll fall into the void for a sec

(within the same dim)

[somber jolt]

I did correct it 😂 apologies for the confusion

[silver sierra]

no worries

[slate owl]

Ngl if someone wants to make a drawing of visualization of how this data processing per region works, us smooth brains will be thankful

Thanks for the answers those guys, sharding did always seem like a bandaid to this issue, hopefully this project goes far

[daring nimbus]

someone should get Owen on that, his explanation drawings are great

[wooden echo]

https://tenor.com/view/that-is-history-lance-geiger-the-history-guy-thats-an-important-moment-we-have-to-remember-that-gif-20426491

[remote zodiac]

Can download it?

[viral coral]

no

[severe talon]

when I do "./gradlew createReobfBundlerJar"

FAILURE: Build failed with an exception.

* What went wrong:
Could not determine the dependencies of task ':createReobfBundlerJar'.
> Could not resolve all dependencies for configuration ':serverRuntimeClasspath'.
> Could not create task ':folia-server:jar'.
> Command finished with 128 exit code: git -c commit.gpgsign=false -c core.safecrlf=false rev-parse --short=7 HEAD
> ```

[wooden echo]

it's time to unfreeze my E5-2683

now I'll get 10 tps instead of 5 with 10 people

[severe talon]

you will get a lot more

[fiery vessel]

I feel like we're missing alot of context to that comment

[wooden echo]

https://www.ovhcloud.com/es/bare-metal/rise/rise-5/ gud deal

[covert sluice]

does each folia instance need 16 cores dedicated to it?

or just on the machine

[fair merlin]

If by instance you mean like server/JVM instance?

[covert sluice]

no like can you still run other stuff that may be utilizing part of those cores?

or say two folia instances

[fair merlin]

No.

Each instance of Folia needs 16 CPU cores / 32 CPU threads.

If you had a server that had, like, 64 CPU cores and 128 CPU threads you could maybe run two side by side.

But that's a lot of hardware.

[sturdy steppe]

I would assume the OS would thread swap though

[fair merlin]

Yeah I mean we haven't tried that.

[charred depot]

you need 16 cores? I thought that was just recommended

[fair merlin]

So it's definitely "who knows"

[fair merlin]

Read the pins.

Anything less wouldn't make sense to use. Just run Paper.

[muted hatch]

How to download folia .jar

Give me link pls

[fair merlin]

There's no jar available yet. You have to build it yourself

[dreamy dirge]

⚠️ Please do not share any links to builds of Folia at this time. We are intentionally not providing easy to find/obtain downloads right now - when the time is right, everything will be available through official PaperMC distributions.

[charred depot]

even with 12 cores wouldn't it still run better than the whole server running on one thread?

[fair merlin]

Probably not, no.

[covert sluice]

Thats kind of what I was thinking but apparently not

[fair merlin]

Paper doesn't really run on "one thread".

There's a main thread and a lot happening off the main thread.

Folia doesn't have a "main thread" as such but because of the multithreading nature you'll run into a bottleneck very quickly if you don't have enough system to run it.

[muted hatch]

I'm new I don't know how to do it can you help me

[fair merlin]

Sorry, no. If you don't know how to build it you'll have to wait for public builds to be available.

[devout steeple]

then its probably not ready for u tbh :/

[fair merlin]

If you don't know how to build it you probably shouldn't be running it yet.

[wooden echo]

do you think in the future maybe folia will be able to auto-allocate resources

like use what it needs

[fair merlin]

Probably not, no.

It's not built for or intended for lower end servers.

[covert sluice]

it would be nice if it could just make larger regions if it has less threads available

[inner swift]

Uh, aren't there concerns with dual cpu setups currently?

[fair merlin]

Yeah

You'd want to disable any second CPU.

NUMA isn't supported

[urban folio]

AMD Epyc 7371, this one good for run folia?

[covert sluice]

that's really unfortunate because I think multi-threading could help a lot of smaller servers run vanilla mechanics

[fair merlin]

#folia-help message

[fair merlin]

Paper is already multi-threaded in tht sense.

[wooden echo]

probably but for the price I think a 3950x it's a better option

[fair merlin]

Folia was designed to take advantage of a lot more threads.

[fiery vessel]

So NUMA would be needed to utilise multiple processors?

[fair merlin]

Yeah

That's what NUMA is, basically. Multi CPU

[covert sluice]

The main tick still is and always will be an issue

[fair merlin]

You'd want to test it with that, or a 3950X. I'm not sure how well it'll run on either.

At the moment we've only tested on a few CPPUs.

But I will say that it didn't run great on a 5950X.

YMMV

[fiery vessel]

Ok, I know I can't ask if there's plans to do it cuz thats not how it works, but do you think its possible?

[wooden echo]

oh

[fair merlin]

No plans. I wouldn't bet on it.

Bit of a nightmare.

[fiery vessel]

Alright, thx

[fair merlin]

But you could test.

You never know.

It's possible NUMA would work.

I'm sure more people will test with more CPUs and stuff as time goes on.

I'd just not recommend people spend any actual cash on beefy boxes unless they know for sure.

[wooden echo]

👍 makes sense

[pseudo ibex]

Wow I didn’t realize folia had so much ram on the test server.

[covert sluice]

I mean that would be about 8gb for each core, makes sense

[muted hatch]

How to download folia

[daring nimbus]

you don't

there are no builds for Folia yet

[muted hatch]

I see people using it

[slender light]

nuh uh

[fiery vessel]

You have to build it yourself

[fair merlin]

Already told you that you have to build it yourself.

[muted hatch]

I'm Vietnamese and I'm not good at English to understand it

I communicate with you through google translate

[fair merlin]

Understood

No build yet. Have to compile.

[dreamy dirge]

⚠️ Please do not share any links to builds of Folia at this time. We are intentionally not providing easy to find/obtain downloads right now - when the time is right, everything will be available through official PaperMC distributions.

[fair merlin]

Read pins in this channel and the Github FAQ

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Folia will:

• NOT be backported to older versions <1.19.4
• NOT be merged into Paper
• NOT be ported to Fabric nor Forge

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[fair merlin]

Info there ^

[normal vale]

Will Folia have a forum?

[fair merlin]

Good question. Not sure.

[pseudo ibex]

@leaden palm

[golden mica]

I want to ask a question. If I use 13700k to turn off the Ecore and the full core speed is 5.6Ghz, in this case, is it better to use folia to turn on the Ecore or off, or can I replace a two-way 8124m at the same price?

[viral stone]

We can't say

the software is literally brand new and nobody has done that type of testing

[fiery vessel]

Well wouldn't it need a proper scheduler to utilise e cores correctly?

[golden mica]

Platinum-8124m X2 will 36core and 4.0ghz

[tranquil epoch]

there's currently no kind of p-e core type stuff

so it runs on whatever thread the OS says it should

now whether that's ideal? lol who knows

[brittle hound]

hey leaf, amazing job so far. check this out:

[fiery vessel]

WHa-

[inner swift]

Are these real players?

[golden mica]

I have now turned off Ecore to prevent the paper from running on Ecore. It seems that the core scheduling of winserver 2022 is not so good.

[brittle hound]

yep, all moving happily through the worlds and receiving fresh chunks constantly without noticeable lag

[fair merlin]

You generally don't want to run Minecraft on Windows anyway.

[fair merlin]

You have 800 real players, not bots/scripts? Which server is this?

[inner swift]

Neat, what kind of hardware is this?

[karmic agate]

I believe this was mentioned in the technical explanation, but still wanna be sure - Wouldn't it be beneficial to be able to limit the region count with a configurable option? So that medium core count processors are able to take some advantage over Paper

[karmic agate]

That's just insane

[tranquil epoch]

region count can't be limited, it's based off of what chunks are loaded

[viral stone]

artificial limits make no sense cos then you'd have to have logic to merge large regions for 0 reason, that would jus be ass

[tranquil epoch]

impressive. have you overallocated the threads on the machine? tps is pretty low

well, tps is low without MSPT being high

[golden mica]

@fair merlin But if you run Minecraft servers on other systems such as Linux, won't there be any problems with core scheduling?

[viral stone]

linuxs scheduler is generally more tunable vs windows

and, well, it has more nerds looking over i

[fair merlin]

^

[viral stone]

not to mention the various different schedulers available, etc, etc

[brittle hound]

I stuck with the numbers in the readme, so 4 netty per 200, 2 io per 200, 2 worker per 200.

[tranquil epoch]

I wouldn't expect linux scheduler to be better at E-P core scheduling

[covert sluice]

it wouldn't be zero reason, it would allow lower core count cpus to take advantage of folia without making the entire server choke when it creates too many regions

[fair merlin]

But you might lose enough in the slower windows FS to be not worth it

[viral stone]

I mean, vs the amount of logic involved to deal with that BS, it would be virtually 0 reason

we don't care about low core count CPUs

folia is not the software for those environments, as stated

[golden mica]

Thanks it helps me a lot

[livid crag]

that's pretty sick thanks for sharing

[covert sluice]

I just feel like multi-threading could benefit smaller servers too, not just to get high player counts

[viral stone]

I mean, it could

[fiery vessel]

In niche situations yes

[viral stone]

if multithreading in general wasn't so expensive to pull off in the first place

[brittle hound]

one thing I noticed, the server can't save chunks fast enough to disk and builds up a huge buffer.
if I stop the server, it takes around 3-4 minutes to save the remaining chunks.
is this something you've noticed too?

worlds are not pre-generated btw.

[livid crag]

yeah that's pretty normal because all region need to be stopped and saved one by one there.

[viral stone]

those in low core environments are generally limited af so much so that adding more threads will often just compound the issue, rather than helping it

[tranquil epoch]

it shouldn't pile up like that

[brittle hound]

most of the chunks don't even have players anywhere near them anymore, but due to high server load and new chunks constantly being generated, the server doesn't discard the old ones fast enough and after some time the IO threads (I assume) start to get overwhelmed.

[tranquil epoch]

yeah you may need more I/O threads too

[livid crag]

ok that may be an issue

[brittle hound]

if you have anything I can try config wise, lmk 👍🏻

[tranquil epoch]

I would suggest like 4 io threads

but

that only works if you have fast SSDs

if you're on a HDD lol

you're screwed no matter how many threads

and if you're on a HDD you only want 1 thread as well

[brittle hound]

PCIe 3.0 NVMe with north of 2.9GB/s read/write

[fair merlin]

Are these bots/scripts? If they're running around/flying around a lot that might explain it.

[brittle hound]

another time I could try Gen4 NVMe if you want to see if it makes a difference. (it probably will)

[fair merlin]

Whereas you aren't as likely to get a bunch of regular players consuming so many chunks.

[left swan]

I'm curious about this too, if they're real players or not

[fair merlin]

Unless they're in an elytra contest

Which CPU is this also?

[tranquil epoch]

also what CPU are you running this on?

[fair merlin]

Jinx Leaf

[brittle hound]

they're flying around at player walk_sprinting speed at 5.612 blocks/s

[fair merlin]

Ah so it is bots?

[livid crag]

so they are like scripted baritone with a preset action...?

[brittle hound]

yes, custom made, each can be considered a valid minecraft client receiving the same traffic.

they're not scripted, they're standalone java programs running on multiple machines to deal with all the load of dealing with chunks like normal clients do.

[left swan]

Okay but that's not "real players" lol

[livid crag]

I see. still pretty cool nonetheless

[tranquil epoch]

don't care about those details, it was obviously some form of bot from the ss

[brittle hound]

does it matter? they cause more load than "real" players as they all fly in a unique direction with constant speed 😄

[fair merlin]

What about the CPU?

[brittle hound]

so if folia can stand this, it should stand 800 real ones given they're spread out well enough

[brittle hound]

5950x for the time being, might try something more fancy another time

maybe also gen4 nvme

[tranquil epoch]

oh you overallocated the threads

[brittle hound]

so you're saying TPS could be better with 800?

[tranquil epoch]

16 tick threads is too many for a 5950x

[brittle hound]

oh these

[tranquil epoch]

the general rule is that you have 4 netty io threads, and if you're pushing this many players you're probably pushing 4 netty threads and need more

and the default worker count is... something like 6 threads for a 5950x?

and those are probably pushed

so before you even get to tick thread you're pushing 10/16 cores

[brittle hound]

defaults are 1 io, 8 worker & 4 tick

I will run default real quick and show the numbers

[tranquil epoch]

and then GC comes along and it pushes some number idk what it will

but you've pushed too many threads on the system, that explains the weird TPS

but it is impressive still

[tranquil epoch]

these would be ok but you'll have a hard time generating chunks with that worker count

if the world is pre-genned it's ok

[brittle hound]

when I tested default settings earlier chunks wouldn't load fast enough for all players

[tranquil epoch]

yeah so I'd say you're certainly bottlenecked by 16 cores

[brittle hound]

so I am running 1 IO, 8 worker, 4 tick now, 800 bots

[tranquil epoch]

now you'll probably choke on TPS with that low tick count, but that is probably the best you can do with that # of cores

[brittle hound]

server cpu usage went down from 70% to ~40%

worse experience, so maybe more than 4 & less than 16 tick threads?

[tranquil epoch]

could probably trade a few threads between worker and tick

[brittle hound]

so double tick & half worker maybe?

so 8 tick & 4 worker instead of 4 tick & 8 worker?

[brittle hound]

a snippet of the pile up with default settings

[tranquil epoch]

oh that's normal for a lot of regions

the shutdown process needs to "pretend" to be every region when shutting down

and it can only pretend to be one at a time

[brittle hound]

CPU back at >70% usage

[tranquil epoch]

pretty close to ideal

[brittle hound]

50-70% actually

[slate owl]

CoreProtect updating to support Folia lesss goo

[sly elm]

i just finished merging folia support into chunky too

therell probably be a lot of plugins doing that in the next few days

[slate owl]

That's good to hear, hopefully the process is not too complicated to get my devs to update our plugins

[sly elm]

it depends on what it is but the main thing that is immediately noticeable is the bukkit scheduler stuff missing lol

[fair merlin]

Chunky+++

[rare steppe]

a bunch of well-known people have had access to Folia for ~a week to give them time to prepare a bit for the initial public release of Folia, which is why spark and LuckPerms (for example) had commits out days ago

[slate owl]

Nice, exciting news

[brittle hound]

in any case, I will keep on tinkering with this and also a lot more powerful hardware. incredible job so far though! if you want these "real" "fake" players to help out at your next big test, feel free to ping/dm me! if need be I can make sure thousands if not tens of thousands will join & help performance testing/debugging. 🫡

[tranquil epoch]

we probably wont do another test tbh

[slate owl]

Doesn't seem necessary if people are already testing themselves

[brittle hound]

well, the offer stands anyway 👍🏻

[livid crag]

[sly elm]

you know what comes next

[livid crag]

been waiting! actually wannna test on my machine just to see the cps

[floral oyster]

VERY helpful analysis Bicrypt, thanks for sharing your findings here. My dedi is also running a 5950X so nice to see some numbers 😄

Jealous of your stress-testing system haha

Looking like we may need to invest in some beefier, more core-driven hardware to make large-scale use of Folia... 🤔

[barren edge]

Let’s say I wanna run a massive event. For that reason I will use a premade map to do some sort of a challenge that will last a few hours or days, a reasonable size for 600-800 players is normally like 3k by 3k (as we don’t want them to explore, just to complete a certain goal). Players should spawn randomly by the world corners, basically they need to be spread out to compete against the other groups.

Based on that, I have some questions / suggestion.

1- how often(in terms of chunks or blocks) Folia creates a region?

If it just creates a region each 2k blocks(as example), someone who run casual or massive events like the mentioned won’t benefit of it as basically all the “world” will be a single region (as I understood reading the docs and also adding the case that folia only creates a region each 2k blocks). It would be nice to be able to choose Folia instead of sharding solutions that demands a lot of bandwidth to do peer to peer(which as all we know, it’s really expensive)

2- Idk if there is or will exist an option to set the amount of blocks Folia should consider to create a region.

With that second case, we can let Folia create a region each 1k blocks and take advantage of all the power using custom size-limited worlds. The hardware is not a problem if this is a concern, sharding systems basically needs big machines too but instead of invest on bandwidth, we can redirect resources to good cpus and more ram.

Thanks in advanced!

[floral oyster]

If your players aren't super spread out, Folia probably won't do you a ton of good.

[fair merlin]

^

[livid crag]

Both 1 and 2 can be answered by the doc readme. I suggest you to take a deeper dive

[fair merlin]

^

[severe talon]

Will there be in a future an option to disable region merging, that would be (if its even possible) really good for small worlds. You have 1000x1000 map and divide it in 4 regions, each one running in a separate thread.

[livid crag]

You, too, should read the readme. You will know it's not possible and that's not how "region" is defined.

[sly elm]

keep in mind i made regionized the default in the commit right after folia

there will probably be some speed difference, I think I already told you about it before though

[livid crag]

[ocean geyser]

It's support waterfall?

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Folia will:

• NOT be backported to older versions <1.19.4
• NOT be merged into Paper
• NOT be ported to Fabric nor Forge

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[teal dagger]

I have never been involved in compiling plugins, much less dealing with kernels. Can anyone throw off a ready compiled jar kernel? Naturally, only for tests.

[viral stone]

no

[dreamy dirge]

⚠️ Please do not share any links to builds of Folia at this time. We are intentionally not providing easy to find/obtain downloads right now - when the time is right, everything will be available through official PaperMC distributions.

[teal dagger]

😦

[scarlet burrow]

out of curiosity, where did the idea for the name come from?

[ocean geyser]

I didn't find any info about waterfall support.

[viral stone]

because it's irrelevant

waterfall support has not been touched, i.e. it still works

[prime juniper]

Do we have already some plugins working for folia? Or we just have the Server working and little to no plugins?

[finite hinge]

Papers make a folio but that's too generic to google (I made this up, I have no idea)

[scarlet burrow]

i like that tbh lol

[finite hinge]

You can control the region size by turning down the view-distance but assuming 3kx3k, view-distance of 10, and the players evenly distributed even if the regions were allowed to touch (and they aren't) once you hit 80 players you'd have one massive region, assuming I did the math there right

Since the regions have a buffer around them to avoid accidentally touching it would be even fewer

Of course they wouldn't be evenly distributed so you might be able to get a few regions running at a time, each one with multiple players in it

With 800 players I would assume basically every chunk is loaded though which means one big region

Unless you crank the view distance way down

[covert sluice]

Folia use case seems very niche

[viral stone]

yes

[covert sluice]

Big player count + big map

[viral stone]

as we've been saying for weeks

folia is literally useless for 99.9% of servers

[finite hinge]

A PvE server where people congregate in a few cities could get multiple regions if the cities are spaced out enough

Or a factions server since people will similarly congregate in those

[covert sluice]

Still doesn’t seem like it would be enough to justify folia

[viral stone]

it's a pet project by leaf

[finite hinge]

You've never had people try to automate production of basically every resource 😛

Letting their city run at 5-10 TPS while saner people are still at full performance is worth it, if you can afford the hardware

[covert sluice]

I have and that’s why I wanted to use folia but I don’t have enough cores lol

And I’m not going to sacrifice single core performance for it

[scarlet burrow]

i think the readme did a good job with the skyblock example, it would be a relatively niche thing yes but from ive read it would be perfect for handling player distribution across a wider spread, such as with skyblock servers

[viral stone]

basically, the work that folia is doing is not cheap on its own merit, and then you've gotta hae the extra threads to deal with that, and then you've got the fact that there more threads you need, the slower the core performance is, which is where the entire ratsnest forms

[finite hinge]

Skyblock is also a use case that would be even better handled by a kube swarm

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Folia will:

• NOT be backported to older versions <1.19.4
• NOT be merged into Paper
• NOT be ported to Fabric nor Forge

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[scarlet burrow]

fair

[covert sluice]

I feel like sky block is too spread out

I mean wouldn’t it essentially give each player their own region?

[scarlet burrow]

it really depends

[covert sluice]

You have a lot of players and I can see that being an issue

[finite hinge]

Something like the old days of the reddit minecrafts servers feels like the ideal, assuming you can get a powerful enough server to run it

Lots of community interaction so you want people to just be able to explore the world and walk from place to place but people also tend to congregate in a few areas so you can get regions for each of them

[scarlet burrow]

love me some classic mc servers 🙏

[covert sluice]

Towny or just basic survival / anarchy basically

[livid crag]

So basically 2b anarchy

[finite hinge]

If all your players are packed in a small area all the time, spread out so far they may as well be in different servers, or you don't have powerful hardware then folia will probably hurt more than help

And for 800 players a 3kx3k map is a small area 😛

[covert sluice]

I feel like 2b players would find a way to destroy folia

just maximize Region count

[livid crag]

That’s not how that works…

[finite hinge]

The thread pool is capped to N threads, if you end up with 100 regions they just tick up to N at once

If N is 1 you're losing, if N is 10 it should still be a win

[winged skiff]

By the way, how does redstone work cross-region?

[finite hinge]

Redstone cannot cross regions

[livid crag]

They don’t

It will be one region

If it need to be

[finite hinge]

Region doesn't mean anvil regions, it means a section of the world that doesn't touch any other sections that are loaded

I did ask how instant wire works in folia though, assuming that still works in vanilla minecraft and/or paper

I suspect that is a case that could break things

Otherwise the region will just expand as needed and merge with other regions if they get too close

[coral radish]

Hello, can anyone provide me a jar . i want to test it locally

[livid crag]

I think an arbitrary large number is picked in the end so only very edge case of people intentionally trying to make a super long one will break.

[dreamy dirge]

⚠️ Please do not share any links to builds of Folia at this time. We are intentionally not providing easy to find/obtain downloads right now - when the time is right, everything will be available through official PaperMC distributions.

[mortal fox]

I think you have to compile it from the source code for now

[livid crag]

If you do not know how, it’s probably best to wait…

[coral radish]

Nvm i can compile myself

[prime juniper]

how to download folia

[fiery vessel]

Dude

Read like 5 lines above here

You need to compile it from the source, just follow the compile guide for paper and it should work.

[floral oyster]

[stray magnet]

Is this a plugin?

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Folia will:

• NOT be backported to older versions <1.19.4
• NOT be merged into Paper
• NOT be ported to Fabric nor Forge

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[stray magnet]

ah rip

1.19.3 would be nice since almost all the survival servers still use it

[finite hinge]

There are I think 5 public plugins that support it right now

This is for people who write their own plugins

[stray magnet]

Is there a list?

[finite hinge]

So they can also move to 1.19.4 themselves

[livid crag]

Not yet but a plugin place of our own is in the making @stray magnet subscribe to #announcements for future updates

[stray magnet]

Nice

[finite hinge]

Spark, ViaVersion, and Chunky are 3 of them, to give you an idea of the kinds of plugins

You can't even load extra worlds right now

You do not want to use Folia

[livid crag]

There are more but most of them require you to compile a dev branch. Yeah. Give it time. It just went public today.

[finite hinge]

This channel exists so people won't plug up #folia-dev with discussion that isn't about how to port plugins to it

[scarlet burrow]

Failed to read upstream data.
Upstream data file does not exist.

someone tell me im stupid and not crazy, gradle createReobfPaperclipJar or any variation isn't doing the thing

there has to be something im missing 🤔

[viral stone]

probs failed to applyPatches

[scarlet burrow]

you know what

you're probably right 😂

[finite hinge]

Folia needs a 5950X, 7950X, Threadripper, EPYC, or Xeon E5 to even consider running it for most people

[pulsar mauve]

🍯

[finite hinge]

It almost certainly has bugs

[pulsar mauve]

(sorry for ping)

[finite hinge]

There is known missing functionality

And there are no plugins

Don't bother trying to compile and run it unless you're doing so to work on porting a plugin to it

[buoyant tundra]

Hey, so I'm making a large survival server and we're all obviously very excited about this. I'd love to develop a small custom plugin and run an event on it where people are trying to build farms.
If we do this, are there there any additional metrics or stats we should record and send in to help with development?

[finite hinge]

Other than spark profiles when you run in to issues I don't think so

Make sure you have a CPU with at least 16 cores

You can maybe get away with 12 if you pregen your world

Not threads, cores

[raven crow]

out of curiosity, what is the highest available core count right now?

[buoyant tundra]

We could try see if it works with 12.

[floral oyster]

Physical cores? Somewhere in the realm of 128 I think

I don't think there are CPUs out there with more than 128 cores, at least that I'm aware of.

[finite hinge]

EPYC has some with 96 cores, 128 coming soon

I think Xeons go up to 28

[floral oyster]

And even their 64-Core CPUs are $10,000 🙂

[livid crag]

ARM processor

[floral oyster]

No exaggeration lol

[finite hinge]

M1 Ultra has 24 cores although you probably only care about 16 of them

[floral oyster]

My team is currently looking into 32-Core machines

[pulsar mauve]

he already knows lol

[finite hinge]

The ARM stuff is usually low performance cores meant for web servers and such

Lots of low perf cores so you can do a lot at once while staying on the lower end of the voltage/perf curve and keep the power usage below 1kW per server

[raven crow]

hmmm... could you potentially get away with a multi-cpu setup?

[floral oyster]

Don't see why not?

[livid crag]

Not tested also noted on readme

[finite hinge]

NUMA hurts but probably

[floral oyster]

Ah fair

[livid crag]

The public test was with one cpu disabled for that reason

[weak tundra]

Can probably be optimized the same way VMware optimizes that sort of thing
Though I'm not sure the JVM wouldn't have to be modified for it to work

[finite hinge]

Oh btw Xeon goes up to 40 cores these days, TIL

[raven crow]

so you are saying i shouldn't drop like 30k on this?

[weak tundra]

I feel like we are gonna see what this lady can stand once somebody throws dual or triple 96-core ryzen server CPUs at her

[plain matrix]

[finite hinge]

The OS is pretty good about keeping processes/threads on the CPU where they're accessing memory but yeah, the threadpool and allocator would have to be NUMA-aware to ensure it didn't bounce things around

[weak tundra]

If it were I think we could run into other hardware limits long before the cpu resources are exhausted (read: memory bandwidth or SSD IOP latency)

[finite hinge]

zgc is apparently NUMA-aware

[weak tundra]

[pulsar mauve]

the use case is MMO

[finite hinge]

Don't forget -XX:+UseNUMA

[pulsar mauve]

[weak tundra]

We are gonna see bigger community events for sure. Plus I know a few servers that regularly try to cram 500 people onto a single server so I wouldn't worry too much

[finite hinge]

Oh yeah and don't use Windows, the JVM doesn't really support NUMA there

[pulsar mauve]

never use windows...

[weak tundra]

Running java on windows

[pulsar mauve]

running anything on windows

enjoy half the disk speed even with antimalware disabled

or more

my nvme ssds are 4x slower on windows in real world scenarios

fast in benchmarks though

[finite hinge]

The Windows vfs is tuned for different things

[pulsar mauve]

ntfs war crimes

[finite hinge]

I don't remember the specifics but there are things it does better

It's not even NTFS, it's below that

[pulsar mauve]

file systems is one of the things linux does really well and has for a long time

[weak tundra]

This is off topic but even windows server in modern versions is so bad that I've had to resort to using a custom ameliorated install to "fix" (read: run) an unusable production app before

[unique forge]

omg where do i find servers like these..

specifically ones that plan on using folia

[weak tundra]

I'm sure the event coordinators for a few big YouTubers will have a field day with this one

[weak tundra]

Most big factions servers do that or try to do that on the regular. Complete community events like a server war or the like usually bring the most traction for any communities so I wouldn't be surprised to see it more often now

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Folia will:

• NOT be backported to older versions <1.19.4
• NOT be merged into Paper
• NOT be ported to Fabric nor Forge

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[kind cliff]

if I have a server with 100s of 1000s of command blocks that lags to 15 tps with an 11900hk with 2 people on the server will this help?

[floral oyster]

It will not. Folia is for large quantities of players spread out across a large world.

[kind cliff]

ah

[weak tundra]

Not sure how many performance cores that cpu has but I would assume you'd get the same or slightly worse results

[kind cliff]

8 cores

11th gen has no big-LITTLE cores yet

[weak tundra]

Once we release general-public downloads you should try it

No harm in doing that

[kind cliff]

alright then

thanks tho

[astral pilot]

How does Folia handle it if there are a ton of people in a single area? I would imagine it expects players to be more or less divided over a large area, so what happens if they're not spread out?

[pearl cloud]

Same as a regular Paper server

[fair merlin]

Yeah it works, it's just not really what you'd wanna use if that's your primary use case (see pins).

[jovial shoal]

How would folia work on things like online Minecraft server hosts that only give a certain amount of cpu threads/cpu usage per server? Would folia still run as expected or would it still be better to just run paper.

[viral stone]

better to just run paper

there are overheads to managing the stuff folia needs to manage, if you're not gonna have the resources to do that, it's gonna perform worse

[plain matrix]

Good enough?

[fair merlin]

Please see pins

[plain matrix]

Oky

[ashen spear]

where can i download folia

[dreamy dirge]

⚠️ Please do not share any links to builds of Folia at this time. We are intentionally not providing easy to find/obtain downloads right now - when the time is right, everything will be available through official PaperMC distributions.

[ashen spear]

bruh

[fair merlin]

You can build it if you want, but there's no download yet.

[ashen spear]

so i have to build it

[fair merlin]

And if you don't know how to build it you probably shouldn't be running it.

[plain matrix]

[ashen spear]

i know how to build it

[fair merlin]

Source is public but it's not really production ready.