sk-discussion

[burnt topaz]

yeah i feel like there are better uses for it than pogoing but the option is cool

especially because you can only use tools so many times

[opaque sigil]

pretty big

Plus you can time its "detonation" by bouncing on it

[uncut citrus]

It seems to expends only when you bounce on it (iirc) so that would be really cool for tactics and stuff

[sage glade]

that is an actual concern. idk what tc is doing about it. pogo proofing areas seems like a lot of extra work

[opaque sigil]

It'd probably be pretty effective against a boss like lace

[opaque sigil]

Pogo proofing is counterproductive

[vivid belfry]

I don't think the bounce is the intended detonation condition

[strange pawn]

They can prolly do it

[opaque sigil]

Probably not but it is one

[vivid belfry]

to me, that seems more like something they put in place so you can only jump off it once

[opaque sigil]

An enemy walking into it would probably also activate it

[vivid belfry]

yeah, automatic triggering sounds nice

there could also be a timer so you can't camp it forever

[uncut citrus]

Ild imagine hitting it normally would activate it

[stark estuary]

Would it act as a lingering hitbox or would it be destroyed once an enemy came into contact with it (following the initial activation)

[opaque sigil]

Although it doesn't really suggest a range for automatic triggering at all, at least not beyond its actual physical size

[opaque sigil]

In the trailer it doesn't stick around

[sage glade]

wdym

[opaque sigil]

Pogo is intended as something players can use

[stark estuary]

I'd expect so, lingering hitbox would be rather broken in the right circumstances

[uncut citrus]

Wait a minute

[opaque sigil]

Why would you stop them from using pogo

[uncut citrus]

I just joined #sk-discussion and it was an actual silksong discussion

[sage glade]

to stop unintended progression into areas

[opaque sigil]

A number of pogo "skips" in HK were deliberate

[opaque sigil]

Who cares? So long as it doesn't softlock no reason to stop that

[uncut citrus]

That’s not possible under the laws on this dimension? What

[opaque sigil]

The ability to use Hornet's moveset cleverly to circumvent obstacles is not a bad thing

If you can get into an ""unintended"" area early, that's just part of the charm

HK in general was pretty loose in terms of progression

[vivid belfry]

yeah, TC has been pretty deliberate about leaving skips in

[burnt topaz]

as long as you arent getting softlocked

[opaque sigil]

In which case better to remove the softlock than the pogo

[vivid belfry]

they changed the background objects at the base of watcher's spire and didn't remove the ones that let you skip monarch wings

they also could have removed the shade spawn location that makes shade skip possible but they left that in too

[hearty plank]

Is silksong out?

[burnt topaz]

take a guess

[vivid belfry]

out buying cigarettes

[uncut citrus]

There’s a lot of places made for HK pogo, there’s places Mase for the dive, I would imagine there would be the same kind of things, although maybe not with tools unless for the first one or something, since it would@be annoying to get back to a bench the equip a tool just to get thought a bridge or smth

[strange pawn]

Probably to not screw over speedrunners while still fixing the game

[gray swift]

if the chat isn't on lockdown silksong probably isn't out, i imagine when it does release this discord will explode

[opaque sigil]

Nah it's intentional

[hearty plank]

If not I’ll continue my Forever sleep then wake me up when it’s out

[burnt topaz]

good knight

[gray swift]

don't blame me if you don't get woken up

[opaque sigil]

In a gmtk video he talks about correspondence with TC where they were pretty enthusiastic about the concept of using things like pogo and shade skip cleverly

[strange pawn]

I been thinking bout this image

[uncut citrus]

FK skip is clearly made for specific stuff like speed runs, there’s things that are made this way

[strange pawn]

Red category = weapons, blue category = self buff

[uncut citrus]

The metal thing doesn’t seems to be a self buff

[burnt topaz]

well what do you mean by self buff because lifeblood syringe is a red tool but that seems to fall under a self buff category
unless you mean passive effects

[uncut citrus]

The thing that makes you able to go to lurien without wings, clearly not places randomly

[opaque sigil]

Yeah it's definitely not that red tools are offensive

Lifeblood needle is clearly not an attack

[stark estuary]

It's an attack on my nervous system

[opaque sigil]

Red tools are active, blue and yellow are presumably distinct in some capacity but the specifics of the distinction are yet unclear

[strange pawn]

There's a Baldurs shell looking item, some kind of drink, and an item that might give armor to your mask (trying to find the image rn)

[sage glade]

neat
didn't know they had a stance like that

[opaque sigil]

Yeah it's not really touched upon outside of that video afaik

Although it is evident from HK's design imo

[sage glade]

potato peeler

[burnt topaz]

i cant see it

[tawdry valley]

You clearly don’t own an airfryer

[uncut citrus]

Y’a i used for exemple, at the base of lurien’s tower is a jump only possible with wings, but there is just one breakable pôle placed in a way to make you able to pogo and get up there, for speedruns

[opaque sigil]

I don't think it was there for speedruns specifically so much as attentive and clever players

[vivid belfry]

I theorize that this is the tool that brings the binding cost down from 9 to 8

[opaque sigil]

Could be

[vivid belfry]

it just looks like it would be used for cutting thread, which is in-line with reducing silk cost from a conceptual standpoint

[opaque sigil]

It does kinda reflect the silk HUD layout

[sage glade]

like, imagine the bottom side of it being like a cup with sharp edges, idk

[tawdry valley]

If I asked you to guess what each of these items did, but HK has yet to release when I show you the image, how close would you even get

[opaque sigil]

On QS maybe somewhere close

[vivid belfry]

defense upgrade, increased jump height, increased attack speed

[tawdry valley]

Best bet here is you say the one on the far right has something to do with your sword

[vivid belfry]

that's heavy blow

[burnt topaz]

far left has something to do with flying

[opaque sigil]

ok in my defense they're kinda similar

[vivid belfry]

indeed they are

[burnt topaz]

id have thought heavy blow would be quickslash

[winged owl]

Does anyone know if there will be charms in silksong?

[tawdry valley]

My point is that for non-stylistic designs like this, we have no clue.

[opaque sigil]

And I also never use heavy blow so I never look at it

So I see that sorta design and think qs

[tawdry valley]

Okay but you use QS all the time because you’re normal

[sage glade]

no. we're discussing the new system they have in silksong, called tools, which replace charms

[tawdry valley]

Similar idea, different system

[winged owl]

Oh nice

[opaque sigil]

Tools have great potential to be an improvement on that system

Partially because it was bad in HK but still

[uncut citrus]

No more Sherma.

[tawdry valley]

Assuming Tc learned their lesson regarding balance since last time

[strange pawn]

I cant find the image showing what I was talking about rip

[sage glade]

wayward compass should've been 10 notches ngl

[opaque sigil]

What can I say, I'm an optimist

[burnt topaz]

sherma will come back but im matching with my friends at the minute

[uncut citrus]

Oh ok

[opaque sigil]

Plus I think the equalized cost will make TC more likely to make each tool comparable to others

[sage glade]

she from the new pixar movie?

[vivid belfry]

I don't think the charm system has a conceptual problem, TC just didn't bother adding scaling to a shitton of charms that really needed them

[tawdry valley]

Hollow knight released in 2017. This joke has been a thing since 2017. It is currently *2022 Cease to exist

[uncut citrus]

Wh...

[opaque sigil]

Not a conceptual problem, just a problem in practice

[strange pawn]

There should have been zero notch charms tbh

[uncut citrus]

2020?...

[burnt topaz]

youre gonna be so mad when you find out its actually 2025

[vivid belfry]

spore shroom, glowing womb, weaversong and defender's crest have damage that is entirely negligible because they stay static when all your other damage sources increase

[opaque sigil]

No, since those defeat the point of customization

Why make them charms instead of just abilities

[vivid belfry]

grimmchild is slightly better in this respect but it still doesn't do much in the endgame

[tawdry valley]

Yeah, these charms in specific only have questionable validity early game, and become redundant once you find actual sources of damage

[burnt topaz]

doesnt help that grimmchilds aim isnt always the best either

[tawdry valley]

Grubsong could also have been a mask return thing. Losing 6 masks and getting a single soul charge is kinda gross.

[opaque sigil]

What's weirder is that there are charms that scale off damage, like grubberfly's elegy, so TC definitely was aware of that option

[strange pawn]

Wayward compass and Gathering Swarm should be zero notch

[opaque sigil]

Eh both are making sacrifices for convenience, that's fine

[tawdry valley]

That is part of minion balance. There’s a reason minions can’t always fly, one homes in, etc

[opaque sigil]

And the one notch cost means it's a minimal sacrifice

[sage glade]

wayward compass being included with the map makes sense casue you buy the map. but gathering swarm saves you the work of collecting all geo, i think it's worth 1 notch

[tawdry valley]

Minions conceptually are questionable, but theoretically they each have their own situational utility.

[high hedge]

Compass really could’ve just been a map upgrade

[burnt topaz]

yeah i know, its just disappointing to see so many charms be basically worthless in the grand scheme of things

[opaque sigil]

If there's a compass in silksong it really shouldn't be a tool

[uncut citrus]

0 notch charmes that would work like flukewarm, but it isn’t really « better » and just diffrent would be cool tho, like a charm that makes your shade soul smaller but deal slightly less damage, thought at his point it would be better to add a full on thing just for that, still would have been nice to have more way to change your gameplay instead of some « boring » charmes

[tawdry valley]

Compass is an optional utility that tc threw in as a nicety, as indicated by its mechanics and cornifers dialogue

[strange pawn]

Not included imo, having to buy it is good bc you have so little geo early game and makes you want to explore without it.

[ocean mulch]

I don't use the compass personally but it's a great thing

[tawdry valley]

TC isn’t punishing the player for wanting to have a map, they are encouraging the player to learn to explore without it, while also not making it too pricy to those who don’t want to.

[vivid belfry]

idk, I've never played a metroidvania other than HK that doesn't have your location available as a default option

[opaque sigil]

That's fine

[sage glade]

oh yeah i forgot to respond
that is a cool tech indeed

[shy stirrup]

why not just make it an option in the settings

[tawdry valley]

I want you to look at the original blasphemous map and then look at the current HK map

[opaque sigil]

What DDX said

[burnt topaz]

hey guys could the HUD changes on the health bar be due to upgrading the nail?

[opaque sigil]

It's crest related

[pale lion]

weirdly Hk was the only metroidvania I've played where I used the map regularly

[burnt topaz]

or is it definitely due to the crests? for sure?

[opaque sigil]

In Edge it was stated to be the crests

[vivid belfry]

players are already encouraged to learn the map by repeat playthroughs anyway, because staring at a map is boring

[shy stirrup]

i think edge confirmed it was crests

[burnt topaz]

ok

[sage glade]

are you talking about the flukenest charm? it has a few combos with other charms that are op. definitely not 0 notches

[rapid topaz]

Is that blasphemous map

[shy stirrup]

blasphemous bad

[tawdry valley]

They updated it later. It’s much better now

[rapid topaz]

I directly recognize it lol

[vivid belfry]

compass costing a charm notch is basically just an annoyance for new players

[uncut citrus]

Well TK is obviously kinda « dumb » or « inexperienced » or « basically a baby », but hornet would be capable of marking her own location without needing a compass so idk, could be a map upgrade

[shy stirrup]

exactly. either just make it an option in the settings or make it like a no cost tool or something

[ocean mulch]

If it is a tool it's probably the least important category

[strange pawn]

Finally found it :D

[tawdry valley]

As is making you buy the map and fill it out yourself. But both serve to proportionalize incentive

[opaque sigil]

Making categories inherently more or less useful is a questionable move

[vivid belfry]

yeah but buying the map is a small, minor fixed cost, not a constant debuff

[uncut citrus]

What in the many Kirb is that

[vivid belfry]

by that logic, there's no reason not to make the compass something you buy once and it shows up on the map like any other map marker

[burnt topaz]

do you want all the HUDs?

[opaque sigil]

Tool system doesn't accommodate variable cost tools

[tawdry valley]

I’m reffering to the gameplay loop, not the system. You need to explore an area to earn its map, both before and after the purchase

[uncut citrus]

[strange pawn]

Maybe this

[vivid belfry]

oh that.
I heavily disagree

[tawdry valley]

Compass is a navigational tool, and is most redundant when exploring an unmapped area and when exploring an area you’ve memorized

[burnt topaz]

i think its just something we havent seen yet

[opaque sigil]

The icon in the HUD and the tool icon would probably be related to indicate what the tool is actually doing

[vivid belfry]

if anything, the map filling system is way more effective at forcing you to learn the area than the compass cost

[sage glade]

pinecone

[burnt topaz]

bee hive with goat horns and bells

[strange pawn]

It just looks like something to do with health imo

[shy stirrup]

idk if its just me but it looks like something you would get for beating the 3 copper lookin guys

[uncut citrus]

It has pharloom icon in the middle

[ocean mulch]

Looks like a deep docks tool

[burnt topaz]

thats more of a weaver ball actually

[strange pawn]

Very much so

[opaque sigil]

It's much more golden than the deep dock colors

[vivid belfry]

I'm about to dock your skull deep in a concrete wall

[ocean mulch]

Skill issue

[ocean mulch]

Ratio

[uncut citrus]

..........i thought it was 1h later than it actually is what is wrong with my mental time thingy I feel like I’ve been awake for two days yet it’s not like I’ve done anything notable today

[strange pawn]

Ratio in discord

[burnt topaz]

shitty quality :(

[uncut citrus]

Nah it’s good

[burnt topaz]

wait nvm its fine

[vivid belfry]

you fell off + jet set radio + alf

[shy stirrup]

i stg why does desktop discord not let u zoom in

[serene chasm]

just click open original

[shy stirrup]

still, its annoying

[sage glade]

opens browser, slight inconvenience but inconvenience still

[strange pawn]

Mobile gang

[serene chasm]

mobile discord sucks

[strange pawn]

Yeah

[shy stirrup]

nah its good

[burnt topaz]

ehh is it?

[serene chasm]

Its fine

[burnt topaz]

its functional

[serene chasm]

You cant send gifs on it

[shy stirrup]

u can?

[sage glade]

you can. it's in the emoji button

[strange pawn]

Imma go out on a limb and say your hud changes with how many masks you have

[burnt topaz]

it doesnt have fav gifs

[burnt topaz]

no its about the crests

[opaque sigil]

Yes, masks will vanish when you get hurt

[serene chasm]

hey I guess you can

[shy stirrup]

that makes no sense

[serene chasm]

but I dont have my red panda stickers on there so it sucks

[strange pawn]

You can send gifs btw

[sage glade]

try regular panda 🐼

[burnt topaz]

the nail does grow longer though and i dont know if its due to the crests or not

[serene chasm]

ewww no

[high hedge]

https://tenor.com/view/komoru-panda-red-panda-cry-crying-cry-baby-gif-19187107

You

[sage glade]

🦊 + 🐼 + 🦝

[burnt topaz]

red pandas are just superior

[shy stirrup]

massive cap

[opaque sigil]

It's consistent for a given crest

[burnt topaz]

ive seen em both before, panda just sat on his ass, ate, then moved to the next pile of food to eat some more
red pandas are mostly always up and at em

[shy stirrup]

but thats what makes normal pandas cute

[strange pawn]

Its so easy to download images on mobile tho

[shy stirrup]

theyre like me but more productive

[stoic path]

Pretty sure the HUD changes depending on your crests

[strange pawn]

Jesus 6.8 mb image wth

[opaque sigil]

And even when the length is about the same it can look different between different crests

[high hedge]

High quality

[shy stirrup]

its prob atool

[opaque sigil]

Plus the needle thing is very directly connected to the crest icon

[burnt topaz]

it is i see that
its just the first 6 HUDs (and 2 crests) have the same length
but the last 6 have a slightly longer length

[opaque sigil]

Same length but different needle things

[sage glade]

do we got any other images with different tools?

[serene chasm]

second one is longer

[burnt topaz]

these ones

[opaque sigil]

Different crests

[burnt topaz]

different crests same long length

[serene chasm]

or at least a bit thicker

[burnt topaz]

short length

[high hedge]

I wonder if the max mask amount will be the same

[vivid belfry]

9 is a nice round number for healing 3 at once

[opaque sigil]

Even the ones with similar length are different designs, it's not the same icon but longer or shorter

[sage glade]

3^2

[uncut citrus]

well no since you will always have 1 mask

[stoic path]

Imagine if it is 12 ;)

[burnt topaz]

yes i know, i just mentioned the length

[stoic path]

Nah, 9 seems like max BASE HP

[vivid belfry]

I can't imagine they would let you hold enough silk to heal nine masks with the default healing mechanics

[opaque sigil]

You wouldn't need to be able to heal all at once

[vivid belfry]

I'm aware, and I'm not talking about healing all at once

[strange pawn]

There's nothing to talk about here, just an observation

[vivid belfry]

I just think keeping the health and healing in multiples of 3 makes sense

[uncut citrus]

...what i meant is that the number 9 doesnt really mean anything since even if you heal three time without getting hit you would heal to 10

[opaque sigil]

Except healing needed is correlated to missing health, not full health

10 max would mean 9 max missing, so an even three heals

[vivid belfry]

okay now I'm gonna embed your skull in concrete

[opaque sigil]

9 max would mean 8 max missing, which is 2.7 heals

[lost coyote]

im shaking crying rn where is silksong 😭😭

[opaque sigil]

At what point did I say you start with one mask

[sage glade]

after you take damage

[vivid belfry]

healing up from 1 mask isn't actually a mechanic that needs to be considered, so having the max health and healing both cap out at multiples of three is just satisfying from a numbers perspective, it doesn't actually have any perfect mechanical significance when the max you can heal is (assuming the same progression caps as HK) 6 masks from full

[stoic path]

You'd always have 1 mask, you can't have 0 masks

[strange pawn]

Never happened

[sage glade]

[opaque sigil]

I guess, and quantifying healing based on a fraction of total health is easier with health that is a multiple of three

[mint valve]

ok I'm going to see how long SS has been in development for. If we count all the time from febuary 2019 ( announcement trailer) to today thats roughly 47 months. If we minus all breaks team cherry had in that time ( 4 months ) thats 43 months or 3 years and 7 months

[vivid belfry]

right, fractions

[strange pawn]

I think you'll have 10 masks

[vivid belfry]

SS development technically started shortly after february 2017

[mint valve]

oh sorry

[opaque sigil]

SS does also seemingly have more sources of multimask damage and is a larger game overall, so they may add more masks for those reasons

[vivid belfry]

but it didn't get full attention until at least august 2018 after godmaster released

[uncut citrus]

yeah 10 maskes would make sense, basically like TK but just a bit more since the healing is so much more and Iframes less

[vivid belfry]

so we can't really quantify how much dev time that contributed

[brittle garnet]

technically full-time development has been going on since August 2018

[stoic path]

Imagine a triple mask damage to account for multiples of 3

[brittle garnet]

any development was from HK's release onwards

[sage glade]

feels good to have known it from 2017

[vivid belfry]

I think taking damage more frequently is already pretty well countered by hornet's increased default attack speed and way more accessible healing

[coarse leaf]

Cool discussion and all, but

[strange pawn]

Cant wait to have 30 masks from lifeblood

[vivid belfry]

if there's anything like soul catcher, it's a done deal

[opaque sigil]

It is, in part, but if attacks are dealing 2-3 masks then 3 mask healing at once doesn't make as much of a difference

[coral glacier]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/283680756159741953/931660119962439680/53213089-179D-4CCC-BF55-ADB64AF42E2B.gif

[opaque sigil]

If there's anything like soul catcher it would be broken

[vivid belfry]

I can't imagine them making 3 masks the default in late game, that's just lazy difficulty scaling

[burnt topaz]

yeah but, its not like any sane person would do that

[mint valve]

oh. no silksong because thats 30 months or 2 years and 5 to 6 months

[stoic path]

And also more maneuver ability options

[mint valve]

[opaque sigil]

True but it wouldn't have to be the default, just occurrent

[lost coyote]

im a team cherry insider silksong will be in development until silksong has finished being developed

[brittle garnet]

I wonder, because if you get more max health but bind healing stays the same then the healing from it won't really be as significant

[vivid belfry]

keeping double and triple mask damage confined to big, obvious attacks like Lace's AOE ball seems good

[opaque sigil]

It will be, if it remains consistently proportional to incoming damage

[sage glade]

what position do you have?

[vivid belfry]

max health is hugely more significant now

[stoic path]

Agreed, or the spikes from the Coral Forest boss

[vivid belfry]

to get the most out of a heal from base stats, you have to let yourself get down to 2 masks, which is a ton of risk

[lost coyote]

chief junior executive creative vice director of tomfoolery

[vivid belfry]

healing from 6 masks to 9 is comparatively super safe

[strange pawn]

I wonder if there'll be crest to change how many masks you heal

[opaque sigil]

Well if you're set up for a heal but let yourself get down to two to maximize effectiveness then it's not a huge risk but it would be more dangerous during the time you're preparing a heal

It doesn't seem too hard to find opportunities to get a bind off

[vivid belfry]

see this is the kind of thinking that prevents people from using spells

[strange pawn]

You already heal super fast in SS so makes you wonder what the upside could be

[vivid belfry]

I think skills will end up being even more neglected by new players, at least in early game

[opaque sigil]

It is but SS spells don't really follow that logic since they're cheaper than binding

You're not exchanging a heal for a cast, you're delaying it

[vivid belfry]

that's way worse though

[opaque sigil]

Ultimately similar in terms of cost, but how people think about it is comparable

[coral glacier]

silksong news will come out tomorrow

[vivid belfry]

instead of going from 3 accessible heals to 2, you're going from 3 to zero

[opaque sigil]

Is it? It's much easier to rationalize delaying a heal when you don't need it than to rationalize "wasting" it

[lost coyote]

I will just use Hornets lifeblood stab move to replicate the hollow knights battle

[vivid belfry]

so if you fire off a spell and start taking damage, you'll be unable to come back

[opaque sigil]

But you remain close to being able to bind

[sage glade]

[opaque sigil]

And focusing wasn't exactly a matter of just having the resources, even if you have plenty of soul to heal that doesn't mean you can

[vivid belfry]

in HK, you're not any farther away from being able to focus

[opaque sigil]

Saving Soul for focusing was easier to rationalize because you're often waiting for a window to heal

[lost coyote]

me when the in the when sleep 😴😴😴

[strange pawn]

Le timezone

(it's 5:40 for me

[vivid belfry]

yeah, but getting in an extra 3 hits as hornet when you're only on one HP isn't a guaranteed situation

[sage glade]

that is exactly me bro 🤝

[opaque sigil]

You wouldn't use it on one hp

[sage glade]

same. but in AM

[opaque sigil]

Once you fall below like 3 hp healing would probably become a priority

[vivid belfry]

so I expect people to be conservative with skills until getting at least one mask or spool upgrade

[lost coyote]

its 10:40pm for me

[vivid belfry]

watching demo footage, newbies get combo'd hard

[opaque sigil]

Oh definitely, but the spool upgrade will be great for making skills more viable since you can use them and still have a bind locked and loaded

[stoic path]

I guess it depends on the player, whether they want to take a risk or not.

[vivid belfry]

I know I'M going to use skills way more often than my first HK playthrough, I'm just talking about the new player experience

[opaque sigil]

So am I, I'm saying I think it will be easier to rationalize the exchange in SS than HK

[vivid belfry]

speaking of spool upgrades by the way, how do we feel about the possible fact that spool is upgraded 1 at a time and doesn't use fragments

[burnt topaz]

or if theyre gonna add another fury of the fallen type thing

[vivid belfry]

we've seen what looks like hornet with 10 notches

[opaque sigil]

Fine, but there would have to be a lot of upgrades in that case

[vivid belfry]

it would be the same number as HK, actually

[lost coyote]

new charm fury of the silksong fans when no news

it would be removed too op 😔

[opaque sigil]

Right, 3 vessel fragments

[vivid belfry]

you get 9 upgrades, but instead of breaking it into chunks of 33 3 times, it's just 1 at a time

[opaque sigil]

Then yeah that would work, and it would make individual pickups more meaningful

[vivid belfry]

plus spool upgrades are numerically way the fuck more powerful than soul upgrades because the -50% income tax is gone

(presumably)

[opaque sigil]

Vessel fragments were useless for the first and second pickup, having notches ready to go right off the bat would be a welcome change

[strange pawn]

Do we know what this is yet??

[opaque sigil]

red tool

[latent mauve]

nut

[lost coyote]

infection juice

[vivid belfry]

yep, even going from 9 to 10 is a big change because that's one less hit to get to binding after using a skill

[stoic path]

9 spool upgrades sounds pretty good, you could get a double bind with max spool capacity

[vivid belfry]

I imagine this will work kinda like holy water from castlevania

[burnt topaz]

it can be used at least 3 times i speculate

[mint valve]

wait a second. in the announcement trailer theres full animations for hornet as well as 5 areas, enemies with full animation and AI, physics engine, and NPC's. Also the announcement trailer came in 2019 so my math is correct!

[opaque sigil]

Yeah, notches will really do a lot to remove the pressures that a full meter bind creates

[mint valve]

oh wait

[opaque sigil]

You're probably way overestimating how much was done

[lost coyote]

was probably not polished very well though

[mint valve]

true

[strange pawn]

2022 feb no sooner no later

If I believe hard enough, it comes true

[opaque sigil]

They had some rooms ready to be shown, not necessarily areas, enemies often didn't do anything and just stood there, and there were only a handful of npcs, many of which had no shown dialogue or interactions

[lost coyote]

thank you diskord for the hopium huffs hopium SILKSONG FEB 2022 WOOO

[strange pawn]

SILKSONG FEB LETS GOOOO

[opaque sigil]

And even the areas that they did have "done" (or at least presentable) in 2019 (MG, DD) got updated significantly

[high hedge]

Your hopium appears to have spoiled, that’s copium

[stoic path]

Though, appearance news is not of absolute certainty

[lost coyote]

no its seeth and maldium

[strange pawn]

Silksongium

[lost coyote]

ligmaium

[mint valve]

SS production started in 2018 august so I was a year late so a estimation I have is 4-5 years if we round up

[strange pawn]

Gamethatwontreleaseeverium

[lost coyote]

yes it has been 5 years since 2018

[burnt topaz]

thats another one for the counter

[stoic path]

I feel like the game is getting delayed for every time we ask about the release date

[opaque sigil]

Don't round up, rounding up is wrong. 3.5. Half of 2018 (at most), 2019, 2020, 2021

[mint valve]

I said 4-5 years

[lost coyote]

it's more like 3 -4

[mint valve]

yes

[lost coyote]

its not August yet so not even 4

[stoic path]

About 3-4 years

[mint valve]

I can only hope

[lost coyote]

hope is all any of us can do

[strange pawn]

SILKSONG 2023 FEB LETS GOOOO

Im sobbing irl

[coarse leaf]

go have some milk and cookies go to sleep y'all

[strange pawn]

It's 5:50

[lost coyote]

I just checked the wiki, HK took about 3 years to develop maybe even less

and they had to change the engine to unity during that too

[coarse leaf]

12am for me

[lost coyote]

which means silksong = beeg

[strange pawn]

Le timezone

[lost coyote]

actually it began kickstarter in Nov 2014 and released Feb 2017 so that's only 2 years 3 months

[strange pawn]

I think christmas 2022 is the absolute latest release date possible

[mint valve]

And fast production time. 1 enemy= 30 min

with AI and animation

[high hedge]

I assume they want to release Silksong with all the polish now that they’re no longer under constraints

[mint valve]

wow

[opaque sigil]

HK was rushed and unfinished

Using HK as a metric is bad

[lost coyote]

but the dlc took an extra year and 6 months so if they plan to launch silksong as a complete product a better comparison would be 3-4 years, coincidentally what we're in now

[opaque sigil]

That's not a good comparison either

[strange pawn]

How long has it been since that first trailer?

[lost coyote]

ok come back here when silksong launches 3-4 years after development began

[mint valve]

for such a big game too. I put over 200 hours for base game in total on computer, switch and xbox and it took 2 years and 3 months. wow.

[high hedge]

An eternity

[opaque sigil]

Working on updates was presumably different in process, and they also had to fix things as they go. SS is also a bigger game that has had more focused development and is made by a more experienced team

[lost coyote]

that's for the first version, factoring in content packs and extra polishing it is longer

[high hedge]

Keep in mind you were playing after all the updates, additions, and bug fixes

[daring hemlock]

YOOO TEAM CHERRY JUST ANNOUNCED THE DATE OF SILK SONG ||not||

[lost coyote]

who is going on a date with silksong

[high hedge]

Me :)

[daring hemlock]

me

[opaque sigil]

The circumstances of development are too different between HK and SS to regard the former as indication of the latter beyond vague overarching strategies

[analog forge]

^

[lost coyote]

I agree to an extent but the situation they are in now would surely be an improvement in development conditions compared to hollow knight

[opaque sigil]

Except some of those improvements are removals of elements that forced them to work faster or made HK take less time

[strange pawn]

HK took 2 years, so let's say since SS is so big it takes 3, we add 2 months for polish, 1 month for random ideas TC got and threw in, 1 months for misc. We get: 3 years 4 months from trailer 1 to release.

How long ago was the first trailer?

[opaque sigil]

Those numbers are arbitrary and meaningless

[lost coyote]

HK was originally supposed to be a lot shorter and their scope kept growing, just like silksong. there are valid comparisons but not all of them are I admit

[mint valve]

well this shows how fast TC can make a game. also this is before the experience of making HK. and with all money and jack vine I think SS is 2022

[lost coyote]

that would place it at June 2022

[opaque sigil]

Pulling numbers out of thin air doesn't make a compelling argument at all

[lost coyote]

28

[high hedge]

Tomorrow. Take it or leave it.

[opaque sigil]

leave

[cunning geode]

take it. but only for me

[lost coyote]

leave it, I do not want silksong anymore

[gilded adder]

Take on me.

[cunning geode]

Take me on.

[opaque sigil]

i'll be gone

[gilded adder]

I'll be gone.

In a day or two

[strange pawn]

If it's not Feb 2022 its June 2022 because my math is obviously infallible and perfect

[uncut citrus]

What is going on here

[lost coyote]

I think it makes a lot of sense for silksong to be 2022 honestly

[opaque sigil]

classic projecting HK dev time onto SS despite its being a bad argument

[uncut citrus]

And why am I still old

[mint valve]

yes

[lost coyote]

this is what we do this is what we thrive on

[brittle garnet]

if it's not Feb then it's March and if not then it's April and if not then it's May and if not then it's June and if not then...

[lost coyote]

its about drive it's about power

[opaque sigil]

Same was said about 2021, and could be said for 2023

[uncut citrus]

There we go

[opaque sigil]

Every year "makes a lot of sense" until it passes

[gilded adder]

I think it takes a lot of cents to make a lot of sense.

[lost coyote]

based on development time 2022 makes way more sense than 2021, 2021 would be optimistic af

[opaque sigil]

Based on nothing

[uncut citrus]

But every year that passes makes the next more likely, since obviously it will release in less than 10years

[lost coyote]

I never thought it was gonna be out in 2021 personally

[modest night]

come on jonny you're not unique nor are you old enough to make dad jokes

[high hedge]

4 years after the trailer seems pretty reasonable to assume. I think 23’ has weight

[uncut citrus]

Jonny (old)

[gilded adder]

You don't know this about me but dad jokes and puns used to be my specialty

[mint valve]

I kinda forgot about HK and SS because no news in 2021

[opaque sigil]

HK took like two and a half years so judging by that dev time SS would have come out in early 2021

[strange pawn]

Bye watching a movie

[modest night]

damn i take it back then

you should keep making them

[lost coyote]

TC will want a finished product this time so add on DLC time and its 2022

HK was released unfinished

[gilded adder]

We don't even know if they're going to do DLC after Silksong releases.

They always could,

[opaque sigil]

SS was being worked on partially before godmaster release

[gray swift]

didn't graig say that he thinks silksong would be done if tc didn't keep adding more and more?

[opaque sigil]

And dlc is a different sort of work so just rolling it in is nonsense

[uncut citrus]

The DLCs definitely weren’t full time, unlike SS right now

[lost coyote]

I meant add on time spent just adding the "dlc" before the game launches instead of after

[opaque sigil]

And even then that would be like three years so SS would have been out in 2021

[gilded adder]

Ari teased DLC in the release video but that was an off handed remark so we really can't say.

[uncut citrus]

Well obviously the base game is already done, but the base game is probably less than 50% so that’s not really helping

[opaque sigil]

And using HK dev time as a metric for SS is bad

[lost coyote]

add on the fact silksong will be a bigger game than HK tho

[analog forge]

No, not obviously

[gray swift]

i just hope it's soon

i really hope it's soon

[opaque sigil]

Which of course adds the perfect amount of time to support your point

[lost coyote]

name checks out

[opaque sigil]

Because you just make up the number so things add up

[lost coyote]

yes that is why I'm making the point not the other way around

[opaque sigil]

It also ignores increased polish, more focused dev, a more experienced team, less financial pressure, preexisting design concepts

It's a bad argument

[pallid girder]

We’ll probs get at least some news soon

[rotund aurora]

I think it’s almost certain that Silksong is gonna be bigger than hk

And hk is pretty big

[opaque sigil]

Fudging the numbers to massage it into 2022 is not a strong argument

[lost coyote]

if TC havent had any severe problems during development I see no reason why SS development would be slower than HK, it will probably be the same pace at most

[opaque sigil]

Could as easily go to 2023 or 2021 as 2022

[rotund aurora]

I think 2023 is extremely likely tbh

[serene chasm]

Just because they haven't said anything doesn't mean problems didn't arise

[rotund aurora]

If it doesn’t release in 2022

[gray swift]

it is and i hate it

[lost coyote]

I'm assuming they havent

[rotund aurora]

We might get something at E3 tho

[uncut citrus]

I mean the base like you could remove entire areas form HK and it would still be playable, most of the game aren’t needed to finish it, Silksong is definitely past the state of the base thing, as TC said them self they don’t want to make « too much content » so if they took like 5 years making content that isn’t « too much » it wouldn’t make sense

[opaque sigil]

Randomly guessing 2022 while mentioning actual numbers does not make the guess founded in actual reasonable deduction

[lost coyote]

doomer gang out here today fr im 100% saying 2022 and I wasnt confident in 2021

[opaque sigil]

I don't care if you were confident in 2021

[serene chasm]

It's game development. Problems can and will arise

[rotund aurora]

Honestly one of my fav parts about release is getting to interrogate TC

[lost coyote]

unless you can show me any proof im not gonna factor it in

[opaque sigil]

Have you never worked on anything ever

[lost coyote]

you cant just say "oh well they PROBABLY did" and state that as a definite

[serene chasm]

See murphy's law

[uncut citrus]

Gonna be graig finally be able to talk to us about the game

[rotund aurora]

Lmao

[opaque sigil]

Base assumption isn't that there was never anything that went unexpectedly in development

Most projects will encounter issues

[pallid girder]

He gonna be like: “ha you guys totally fell for it, nerds”

[lost coyote]

I specifically mean issues that impact development substantially

not them running out of sandwiches or accidentally deleting a few lines of code or something

[opaque sigil]

Anyways it doesn't really matter if significant problems arose since there's no way to infer dev time in the first place

It would affect things that we don't know and can't predict

[rotund aurora]

I don’t think it’s likely that they’ll be an actual development-halting problem

Most games don’t have those. It’s possible, I just don’t think it’s likely.

[opaque sigil]

Whether or not there were or were not problems that took development time doesn't really change anything because that's just part of development

[gray swift]

just pick a date and pray

[rotund aurora]

I think the only development halting problem would have to be something with the base game, but people liked the demo so that’s prolly off the table

[opaque sigil]

no

[serene chasm]

On the topic of development time. SS is meant to be as big as HK as it is now. Not how it was at launch. So you have to factor in the dlc dev time as well

[opaque sigil]

Which is nonsensical because the process is different and would then include post-release procedural stuff

Content updates were probably not produced in the same fashion as the game itself was

[digital mural]

Silksong when?

[glass vigil]

Have they said anything about DLC? I didn’t see anything

[distant saddle]

in 15 seconds

[glass vigil]

Fake news

[rotund aurora]

Silksong is prolly gonna have its own DLC

[opaque sigil]

Not really

[rotund aurora]

Why wouldn’t it?

[lost coyote]

team cherry didn't even wanna do dlc they just didn't wanna take another year to finish it

[opaque sigil]

SS won't have updates for the reasons HK did, because SS isn't under pressure to be prematurely released

[rotund aurora]

Of course, but they may have new ideas and may want to add new content to the game afterwards

[opaque sigil]

If HK had released in such a capacity that it reflected TC's idea for what they wanted the game to be, content updates wouldn't have happened

[opaque sigil]

They'll be busy with their next project

[rotund aurora]

HK DLC was more of an after development kind of thing, but SS DLC could be just new stuff

[opaque sigil]

And content updates are generally inferior to integrated content anyways

[lost coyote]

sure maybe but the reason they did the dlc for hollow knight was because they didnt have enough time to add that stuff for release, not because they thought of it after release and just added it

[rotund aurora]

Yeah. Which could be DLC

[opaque sigil]

It's not

[rotund aurora]

It could be

[opaque sigil]

They stated in Edge that they have a non-HK game due to be created

[brittle garnet]

Well, who's to say they won't wanna add anything to Silksong post launch

[lost coyote]

why would they finish silksong then immediately begin on dlc

[rotund aurora]

Yeah. But that doesn’t mean they don’t want to add stuff to silksong

[opaque sigil]

They have even been accumulating ideas for their next game

[stoic path]

It'd probably be something different than HK

[rotund aurora]

For the longevity of the game.

[opaque sigil]

Why would they do that when they can better use the ideas in the base game

[brittle garnet]

True but it doesn't mean they will be jumping to start making it as soon as they're done with SS

[lost coyote]

I think they care more about the finished product than the longevity

[rotund aurora]

Because they might have new ideas after launch

[opaque sigil]

HK has maintained an increasing audience even after the dlcs, longevity isn't a problem

[serene chasm]

Unless they get some crazy cool idea the day after SS comes out, I don't think we will see any big content packs for ss

[rotund aurora]

Actually, it could be.

[opaque sigil]

It demonstrably has not been

[lost coyote]

they have new ideas all the time, leth stated they have too many new ideas and not all of them will make it into silksong (he didn't state that last part)

[rotund aurora]

Not necessarily. The announcement of SS has probably pushed it along

[opaque sigil]

In the 3.5 years since HK's last update its audience has been growing

[narrow lava]

I hope the post release content updates are great

[rotund aurora]

If it didn’t have the dlcs, it probably wouldn’t be as popular as it is now, albeit still popular

[opaque sigil]

Which was three years ago

[rotund aurora]

New content always makes players come back.

[lost coyote]

I would love post release content updates but the only reason they originally did it was to add content that wasnt finished in time for HK

[glass vigil]

It’s silksong we talking about, people are still playing hollow knight and producing content about it.

[mint valve]

Man I can't believe I've been on the HK/SS discord for roughly 3 weeks and I've got a big voice here, met many HK enjoyers, talked to most mods, and even a admin. thank you all

[rotund aurora]

Yeah. It’s still a new game. Not a one off kind of thing

[opaque sigil]

Players don't need to come back in order to have served their purpose as an audience

[lost coyote]

exactly, no need to release content updates to keep us occupied

[rotund aurora]

But players coming back will increase the longevity

[opaque sigil]

bruh

[stoic path]

what is going on lmao

[opaque sigil]

It's been three years since SS's reveal and people are still buying the game, you can't credit that to the reveal

[lost coyote]

ss discussion

[rotund aurora]

Argument about whether SS will have DLC.

Okay, but regardless players are coming back

[opaque sigil]

Not because of updates or ss

[rotund aurora]

That in itself makes it more popular.

[serene chasm]

Just typical #sk-discussion stuff. Tammo is arguing with someone.

[opaque sigil]

Because it's a cheap game with a timeless artstyle and appealing gameplay

[velvet ruin]

I would like some DLCs but I think they're gonna release the full game from day one

[rotund aurora]

Because you would know.

[narrow lava]

well, I doubt that SS is still selling HK, makes no sense

[opaque sigil]

I would, because even without updates or SS people have been buying the game

[lost coyote]

tammo was originally arguing with me but now its morphed into me agreeing with him and arguing with someone else? idk its confusing

[mint valve]

yep. this is what I love about this server

[rotund aurora]

Perhaps not much anymore, but it may have at the original announcement

[opaque sigil]

Longevity is independent of that

Longevity is about how well it continues to sell, which HK is doing even without updates

[stoic path]

HK is pretty well established, SS doesn't need DLC. Players always come back regardless of new content or not. If they are a part of the community, they'll always come back.

Mods are a good example of this

[rotund aurora]

No, longevity is not entirely dependent on sales. It is dependent on the active player base size.

[lost coyote]

HK in general is easy to grow a community around since its gameplay encourages people to go online and ask about and discuss things, the same will be true for silksong

[uncut citrus]

The players are the sales

But yeah I guess ppls will stop playing if there’s nothing to do

[high hedge]

Y’know thinking back on that Hornet Eyes thing, even the shirt depicts her with inset eyes https://imgur.com/4bVYTJw.png

[uncut citrus]

Ss will probably have mods tho

[rotund aurora]

Well, it doesn’t matter if 1m have bought the game and nobody plays it.

[serene chasm]

What if SS had mod tools

[rotund aurora]

Most definitely

[high hedge]

That means they made all that money though

[rotund aurora]

Money doesn’t equal popularity, and popularity is longevity

[lost coyote]

if they cared about longevity they wouldnt go a year without saying a single word publicly

[rotund aurora]

It doesn’t matter how many people own a game, if nobody plays it, it dies

[vivid belfry]

popularity is not the same thing as longevity

[high hedge]

Is the argument that of Silksong doesn’t receive regular content updates that the playerbase won’t grow?

[vivid belfry]

remember pubg?

[rotund aurora]

But that’s silksong. It’s longevity isn’t really started yet

[high hedge]

No, who?

[vivid belfry]

exactly

[lost coyote]

a year without any news and yet the community has grown further, by your logic this shouldnt be possible

[high hedge]

Fortnite killed and ate pubg

[serene chasm]

All games will die. I'm sure SS will have enough content at launch for people to enjoy it for a while.

[vivid belfry]

there are plenty of properties with small but super dedicated followings

[rotund aurora]

But it’s directly proportional. The more popular, the longer it will stay alive and relevant. The less popular, the more easily it will die

[lost coyote]

there are still people talking about hollow knight over 3 years after its last content update, silksong will be fine

[vivid belfry]

pubg

more than that, game of thrones

[high hedge]

Fall Guys

[uncut citrus]

A...

[high hedge]

Back 4 Blood

[rotund aurora]

Also, tc doesn’t need to make dlc bc of longevity

[vivid belfry]

what matters in keeping a community alive isn't view numbers, it's like, the thing being good and facilitating discussion

[uncut citrus]

Am...

[rotund aurora]

They can just do it bc of new ideas

Grimm troupe is very clearly a new idea

[stoic path]

Fall guys is the best example. That thing was so popular... Then it died in like a month

[lost coyote]

online games have to factor in longevity and produce updates consistently to make that happen, but silksong is not an online game

[rotund aurora]

Not something they were thinking about during development really

[serene chasm]

Mp games are a different breed

[high hedge]

As long as people struggle against bosses, there will be community. As long as there is community there is opportunity for growth

[uncut citrus]

SS is the kind of game you play once or maybe twice, like HK actually idk why we are all still there

[lost coyote]

I'm not a huge fan of online multiplayer games they get boring fast for me

[rotund aurora]

Yeah, as long as they do. But if nobody plays the game, they don’t, and the game dies.

[serene chasm]

It doesn't matter if a million people are playing SS or just ten. It's still the same game

[vivid belfry]

I have like 600 hours in HK, throw hands

[stoic path]

Same, but Krunker though...

[lost coyote]

nah, metroidvanias are designed for huge replayability

especially one like HK that is extremely exploration focused

[rotund aurora]

Eh. That’s not really very connected to metroids

[serene chasm]

Is hands a new tool?

[high hedge]

Silksong is springing off Hollow Knight so it by default has an audience

[uncut citrus]

Beside of mods HK doesn’t have much replayability... even Steel soul really doesn’t change much

[stoic path]

I played HK 3 times before 100%, and apparently that wasn't even everything lol

[rotund aurora]

HK definitely is, but there are plenty of metroids that aren’t

[lost coyote]

I've played all the metroidvania games I own at least twice, HK I think 4 times

I hope silksong has an actual hard mode that isnt just one life mode tho

[uncut citrus]

I’m beating bosses that I already did rn tho, so I guess that’s still replayability but it can be boring fast, after all achievements and HoG there’s really only mods left

[serene chasm]

Replayability can really depend on the player. Some people can replay a game multiple times and others play it once and that's it

[vivid belfry]

TC suggests silk soul will be more involved than steel soul

I think dropping the permadeath and adding new boss patterns/enemy placements would be great but that could be a lot of work

[analog forge]

A dedicated hard remix mode would be amazing, regardless of the work involved

Imagine, different quests, harder platforming, tougher patterns

[lost coyote]

yeah an increase in enemy health or damage or decrease in hornets damage or an increase in shop prices would be cool for a hard mode

[uncut citrus]

If by « suggest » you mean they literally said that then yes

[analog forge]

No, that wouldnt be cool at all pooldonut

[serene chasm]

Please no linear damage buffs or debuffs

[analog forge]

Thats bottom of the barrel shit, even permadeath is better

[lost coyote]

it's way more preferable than permadeath for me

[analog forge]

Permadeath is at least unique

[torpid fractal]

no its not

[vivid belfry]

I think things like permadeath and low damage should be self-imposed challenges, especially in a game with damage upgrades that you can just skip

[lost coyote]

permadeath is just the same game but with jinn it's not unique

[torpid fractal]

permadeath is as bottom of the barrel as a stats change

[vivid belfry]

lost kin with sharpened or even old nail is fun as fuck when you already know how to obliterate the fight under normal circumstances

[torpid fractal]

i'd argue even more than the latter

[high hedge]

Making my fights take longer is just annoying not difficult

[uncut citrus]

I would love to see more advances AI with even maybe a new attack on some enemies with silksoul tho

[high hedge]

At least permadeath is rewarding to beat

[analog forge]

Permadeath grants a different feel, far more so than "bosses take longer and enemies become avoided"

[lost coyote]

permadeath is simply a mechanic that allows for no mistakes, it's not that fun really

[dusty mirage]

any updates yet? :3

[lost coyote]

that or you just cheat it with save and quit which is pointless

[high hedge]

Just one

[analog forge]

Its not no mistakes its "no 5 mistakes in a row"

[high hedge]

That there’s no updates yet

[dusty mirage]

understandable, have a great day♡

[high hedge]

So less of an update and more of a status quo-

[analog forge]

Hollow knights hase gameplay means no one mistake will mean the end, as long as your skilled enough to recover

[rotund aurora]

Permadeath is only rewarding if you don’t quit out

I would know

[high hedge]

It’s me quitting various times that pushed me through to the next attempt

[lost coyote]

I mean if you fuck up on a boss or something that's it save file gone, it's not a fun mechanic

[high hedge]

Though it just gave me a more Roguelite feel

[lost coyote]

permadeath adds tension but that's all I'll give it

[analog forge]

If you fuck up on a boss, you didnt practice enough, and wouldntve have been ready for a normal hardmide either

[lost coyote]

as I said before people make mistakes, a mode that just expects you to be perfect with barely any room for error with hugely punishing mechanics isnt very fun

[brittle garnet]

yeah permadeath in a metroidvania is kinda stupid

[analog forge]

Hollow knight allows tons of room for error before you die

[brittle garnet]

it's really not a good or fun mode except for masochists or ultra god gamers

[lost coyote]

you can have accidental deaths every now and then that have nothing to do with skill but will still erase your save file all the same

[analog forge]

It will always have to do with skill

[uncut citrus]

Or you just stressed

(What if you don’t skill issue me )

[brittle garnet]

skill issue

[lost coyote]

every game has rng

[uncut citrus]

:snailjam: :obamium: :amogus: :zote: :agonyking:

[lost coyote]

enemies being in the wrong place at the wrong time etc

[stoic path]

Imagine doing Steel soul, you fall down from the big room in FC and hit a tick tick

[brittle garnet]

you get crystal hunter knockback combo'd from projectile hit > crystal > spikes

[lost coyote]

my first steel soul death was from my wall jump not working properly and me falling into a 2 mask damage attack

[stoic path]

Anyways, I think Silk soul is gonna be different from Steel soul.

[brittle garnet]

Yeah I think so too

I'd genuinely just prefer a hard mode rather than permadeath

[lost coyote]

yes silk soul will have everything be made of silk

[stoic path]

I kinda feel like TC ia taking their time with Silk soul mode

[analog forge]

Unless you hit 9 tiktiks on the way down, youll be fine

Hollow knight inherently has health recovery as like a base feature

[lost coyote]

only if you have soul, which you get by going near enemies

why am I explaing why people die in HK it's very common

[stoic path]

Most of the bosses you can't even get time to heal

[analog forge]

Yeah, you play the game by being near enemies

[brittle garnet]

anyway this doesn't matter, the point is that permadeath is not a good challenge

[lost coyote]

your whole argument is just "dont get hit"

[analog forge]

most of?
Big ol citation needed bucko

[stoic path]

Most of

[torpid fractal]

most of

[lost coyote]

most of

[analog forge]

Radiance, dream bosses, flukemarm sure.
But most of them give you plenty of oppertunity

[lost coyote]

my point is that permadeath doesnt enhance the gameplay in any way because it literally doesn't change it

[brittle garnet]

well yeah but you also have to understand that not everyone is good at games

[torpid fractal]

most

[stoic path]

Yeah, why does this game have permadeath anyways, is permadeath really a common feature in Metroidvanias?

[lost coyote]

even simple stat changes would change the gameplay a lot more than permadeath

[lost coyote]

no

[stoic path]

Stat change is kinda boring

[opaque sigil]

Permadeath is even more boring

[lost coyote]

I'm honestly not sure why they even have steel soul or god master mode both seem pretty unnecessary

[analog forge]

It wouldnt.
Longer bosses is in no way meaningful, where as permadeath is

[opaque sigil]

GSM makes sense because it lets you access bosses without doing pantheons

[lost coyote]

the meaning being "start again" how fun

[analog forge]

Permadeath is frustrating snd cruel, but its meaningful

[opaque sigil]

It's also largely unnecessary when it could be self-imposed anyways

[stoic path]

Different enemies, different boss attacks, a new mechanic, something like this is more interesting

[opaque sigil]

Steel Soul as a gamemode added very little

[lost coyote]

permadeath goes against the core values of a metroidvania, of slowly bettering and upgrading yourself and learning from mistakes

[serene chasm]

No normal person will self impose a perma death mode

[analog forge]

It added little but its more than stat changes ever could

[opaque sigil]

People do it all the time in other games, that's what a nuzzlocke is

[cunning geode]

Pistol start doom speedruns moment

[opaque sigil]

Or a deathless run of any game

[exotic pier]

Based off the fact Team Cherry said Silk Soul would spin the game into a unique, challenging experience, I feel as though it’ll be a little more complex than Permadeath and small stat buffs

[analog forge]

Pokemon is a team based battler, permadeath works a lil different

[opaque sigil]

It's still self-imposed permadeath

And it does include outright resets

[exotic pier]

Perhaps quests are different, the way healing is changed, or enemy placements are adjusted

[lost coyote]

at least stat changes can't just be self imposed

[stoic path]

Yeah, people make their own challenges, steel soul is pretty much same as a no-death run

[opaque sigil]

Stat changes are also relatively uninspired

[serene chasm]

Only hardcore Pokemon players do nuzlocke. Most people don't. If TC wanted people to have people play perma death they can't just have a message that's says "pretty please deltere the save if you die"

[opaque sigil]

But anybody who wants to can

[lost coyote]

TC basically do stat changes with the nail binding anyway

[stoic path]

A 'mode' should introduce something different

[opaque sigil]

And TC doesn't want people to do permadeath necessarily, it's an extra challenge.

[exotic pier]

I mean, at the end of the day it’s all optional, so if you’re not into it then there’s no reason for you to commit

[opaque sigil]

Furthermore things like an achievement for beating a game without dying does the same thing as steel soul

[high hedge]

Boss Rush challenges are different

[lost coyote]

I would quite like to be able to apply reduced versions of the bindings to normal gameplay tbh

[serene chasm]

Perma death should be a toggleble option for those who want it.

[primal oriole]

yeah that’s the exact same thing with a little less flavour

[analog forge]

Stat changes are bottom of the barrel. Permadeath is the gunk at the bottom

[high hedge]

I would get bored playing through hollow knight with a half damage nail

[lost coyote]

people do old nail only runs already its almost the same thing as nail binding

[stoic path]

Minecraft hardcore mode

[opaque sigil]

Having the game autodelete your save isn't needed for anybody

[primal oriole]

I mean, i don’t have an issue with perma death being an in game option, but it doesn’t need to be

[opaque sigil]

Exactly

[stoic path]

Yeah

[torpid fractal]

perma death isn't really an extra challenge though

[opaque sigil]

It doesn't really add anything that the player couldn't already do

[final marsh]

there is no news about ss

[opaque sigil]

Not really but it's taken as one

[high hedge]

No more speedrun shade skips

[acoustic goblet]

^

[lost coyote]

if you were doing a self imposed no death run you wouldnt be doing them anyway

[stoic path]

If a player wants to they could casually do a 'no-death' run or go even further and do a 'hitless' run. A permadeath option is a bit unnecessary.

[high hedge]

Ah that’s true

[analog forge]

Hard mode doesnt need to exist, full stop

[stoic path]

Yeah

[analog forge]

What needs to be in the game is a silly arguement

[high hedge]

The pantheon is already pretty hard

[lost coyote]

well nothing needs to exist but it adds a little bit of extra challenge for a replay which is always nice

[high hedge]

Toggles like that work better in Roguelites to augment your runs

[stoic path]

I wish I don't exist because life is a huge challenge which I just can't beat without failing

[high hedge]

Providing the right amount of challenge for what you want in that run

[lost coyote]

cant believe god added permadeath to life smh

[high hedge]

Wait you guys have permadeath? I’ve respawned like ten times now

[stoic path]

We need creative mode

[lost coyote]

I wish if you died in real life you respawned at your last bench

[high hedge]

That’d send me back like 2 weeks

[lost coyote]

too bad

[stoic path]

Imagine sitting in a bench in another country

[torpid fractal]

i'd imagine life's version of a hk bench would actually be a bed

[high hedge]

Place a bench at a finish line for racing speedrun skips

[uncut citrus]

Or it would be the living room cause that would mean you can’t die in the living room

Please ignore what I’m saying

[ruby oriole]

Hey

can i ask yall a question rq

[uncut citrus]

Go on?

[ruby oriole]

is anyone else afraid?

[uncut citrus]

Of?

[ruby oriole]

afraid that silksong will be a flop, that it won't live up to hollow knight, that the combat will not be as good, that the platforming will be shitty, that the game will be boring, and that none of the unanswered questions that came from hollow knight will be answered

because, theres a huge possibility that silksong will be the last hollow knight game TC will develop

[uncut citrus]

Nah

[ruby oriole]

(which is mostly why i think making it a prequel is stupid, why end your franchise full of unanswered questions on a fucking prequel)

[serene chasm]

It is going to be the last HK game they develop for a while. And that probably why theyre taking their sweet time. They want it to be perfect

[glossy jackal]

We're not afraid, it's a guaranteed fact that silksong will not be as good as hk

[ruby oriole]

what if it isnt?

[serene chasm]

We move on I guess

[ruby oriole]

what if it doesn't live up to hk

[glossy jackal]

go play something else

[gilded adder]

The last point will probable be true though and that's totally fine. Silksong is its own game with its own lore and world, staying as far away from HK as possible is to its own benefit since they said they want Silksong to be accessible as someone's first HK game.

[worthy lichen]

daily elderc:

[uncut citrus]

Well Graig implied Hornet’s skillset is way better than TK’s, I wouldn’t doubt too much that ita at least as good

[ruby oriole]

yeah, but they how else would they answer those questions then?

[glossy jackal]

TC won't answer any questions

[ruby oriole]

i understand making it a different game with its own story, but it still has the roots of hollow knight, hell, the game's called HOLLOW KNIGHT SILKSONG

[ruby oriole]

i'm talking about the game.

[glossy jackal]

Ik, TC doesn't answer questions in game either

[serene chasm]

Not like HK was that amazing. The combat is pretty simple, and the platforming was as well. If it wasnt for the story, characters, and world. HK wouldnt be the big hit it is

[ruby oriole]

i'm talking about at least giving hints

why not at least gives us a clue of what happened in hk in your final HK game

[glossy jackal]

They wont, they literally want all endings to be canon

[ruby oriole]

i'm not talking just about the endings

[uncut citrus]

It will tho?

[glossy jackal]

what will be revealed?

[ruby oriole]

stuff like the void society, who killed the pale king

etc etc, why is grey prince zote so handsome, where did the knight come from and why was he outside of hollownest

[glossy jackal]

Again, i'm pretty sure those things wont be answered

[gilded adder]

I still think it was that amazing

[glossy jackal]

they didn't even bother to explain why oro disliked mato

[ruby oriole]

a lot of those things are pretty big plot points, i don't expect tc to answer all of them

[ruby oriole]

yes, thats exactly why i think its a waste of potential to not answer those questions

[glossy jackal]

Well it's TC, don't expect much

[ruby oriole]

it doesn't have to be in SS(since its set in another kingdom)

[serene chasm]

It was the sum of its parts. If you took any of those away, it probably would have been as good

[gilded adder]

True and it seems Silksong is going to take every aspect a step further and that's what has me so excited for it.

[opaque sigil]

No but a real hard mode would add things beyond what the player could self impose

It's not that a permadeath mode is unnecessary, it's just redundant

[serene chasm]

SS is HK turned up to 11

[surreal crown]

Silksong isn't the last game TC is making. They have already stated they are partially working on the next one (through planning).

Also next game isn't HK related.

[uncut citrus]

Most of those question already have answers or only 2-3 real possibilitie... if you want answer so bad ask in #hk-lore about it ppls will tell you if we know or not...

[gilded adder]

Yea, Curly said that SS was the last HK related game they're making for a while, which I believe is true.

[ruby oriole]

I wonder tho, if hk gets a third sequel, who would be the main character?

[uncut citrus]

Sherma.

[serene chasm]

I'd want to play as Quirrel

[surreal crown]

Oh, my bad.

I think a change of pace after Silksong will be nice anyways.

[serene chasm]

FF hype

[true vine]

tammo

[ruby oriole]

but his fate was already (supposedly) sealed

and we already got the quirrel comics to serve as a prequel

[serene chasm]

Make it a prequel. What did he do after leaving hallowbest

[ruby oriole]

zote wins every boss fight by dumb luck

like big giant cockroach enemy charging at you? rock falls on its head and it dies

[serene chasm]

Oh. Or maybe we can play as iselda during her time as an adventurer

[ruby oriole]

enemy slicing their nail at you? they trip and their accidentally stab themselves with their nail

[ruby oriole]

i don't think iselda is enough of a big character to serve as a protagonist, compared to hornet and the knight at least

though, if silksong is really a prequel(which i doubt), it would be nice to maybe see her? i doubt that would happen, but it would be cool

[split tide]

I mean you can make anyone a protag

[serene chasm]

Play as the pk. HK 3 is a cty builder game

[uncut citrus]

Maybe that’s why TC didn’t answer for tidetale’s first thing to be a quirrel prequel, they wanted to make one themself

[uncut citrus]

Also why does the like wjskskdn wh en when I see your name I think of A maggus plz help

I

[split tide]

Or PK is just a kaizo maker

[uncut citrus]

I’m going to sleep

[serene chasm]

good knight

[opaque sigil]

It's much more of a waste to sideline SS's story to explain inconsequential minutia

[serene chasm]

TC should just release a lore bible in like 10 years

[opaque sigil]

Everything needed to understand the narrative of HK was present, nothing needs to be explained, no questions answered

[ripe fossil]

Except a Silksong release date

[torpid fractal]

dying in a bed is just as likely as dying in a living room

[split tide]

Yeah honestly HK is pretty finished with the first 3 endings

I.e. only replacing THK, sealed siblings, DNM

[opaque sigil]

Eh even EtV is fundamentally similar to DnM, it's just weirdly framed

[split tide]

Yeah that’s fair

It just has this oddly dramatic cutout, but realistically it’ll probably be similar since infection is gone

[opaque sigil]

yeah it makes very little sense that they presented it like that

ig THK emerging from the egg is exciting though, its survival is the one really unique thing about etv

[torpid fractal]

i always thought THK was drawn weirdly in that ending

[opaque sigil]

Well it's limping and leaning on the nail, and the angle's weird

Just gonna drop spoilers for the final boss of a game with zero context and no spoiler tags.... very cool

[mint valve]

sorry

[opaque sigil]

It's not a big deal, my response was needlessly harsh, sorry

Just be considerate of that sort of thing in the future

[mint valve]

So I think SS full production was in 2018 august. And I has been 42 months roughly or almost 4 years. If we minus the weeks/months that TC took of. ( 2 weeks per year I think ) thats 2 months. 40 months of development. I could be wrong so correct me if I am

[stark estuary]

You are. SS has only been in development for two weeks.

[young saffron]

why does no one talk about this weird creature
Who is to the right of the starting area in mossy grotto

[opaque sigil]

42 months is like 3.5 years exactly, which is around right

[stark estuary]

Incredible quality

That's Dave. People have spoken about him in the past.

[mint valve]

what is there to talk about?

a massive creature.

[young saffron]

wassive

[opaque sigil]

It's Dave. You can technically kill Dave in the demo, supposedly, but nobody did it because it's dummy hard

[stark estuary]

Apparently it was possible to kill him in the demo but doing so was incredibly difficult.

Snessel'd

[mint valve]

did you get anything

[young saffron]

I kinda wanna see how he dies :O

[opaque sigil]

Nobody was able to do it, but probably not, since you probably weren't expected to do it

[mint valve]

Probably no death animation either.

[opaque sigil]

Might've had something of a death animation

[stark estuary]

Yeah I'm sure he just phased out of existence when you killed him

[coarse leaf]

It was probably a troll enemy and has infinite HP

[opaque sigil]

Maybe. The source for being able to kill it was Graig, after all

[coarse leaf]

HEY! MY NFT!

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-spongebob-cry-gif-20104177

[mint valve]

maybe

[short wagon]

Does the silkSong trailer have this image?

[stark estuary]

Demo

[young saffron]

demo from one of the players in e3

[split tide]

I remember dave discussion some years ago

[stark estuary]

Not much to say, really

[split tide]

Yeah

[young saffron]

do we have a clear pic of dave?

[stark estuary]

Unless you were interested in hearing the mind-blowing Dave theory I haven't written yet

[young saffron]

ty dave is hot

[stark estuary]

Yeah, he's sitting there.

[coarse leaf]

Wait is his name actually just Dave

[opaque sigil]

No, it's a fan name

[coarse leaf]

Why Dave of all things

[burnt topaz]

because it suits him

[mint valve]

yes. dave=chad

[coarse leaf]

Aight fair enough

[stark estuary]

Dave is probably a juvenile Wyrm or something by the looks of it

[burnt topaz]

is that your theory

[coarse leaf]

Oh my god it’s the Yellowwyrm

[short wagon]

I expect to see SilkSong on Nintendo in February

[stark estuary]

No, I haven't made my theory yet

[opaque sigil]

PK 3rd form, godseeker can't detect it because it's too small to have a beacon yet.

[ruby oriole]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT5YUNwEsYs

why is no one talking about this?

[opaque sigil]

nothing to say

[ruby oriole]

you monster, can't even wish daily silksong news a happy birthday

[stark estuary]

It does have a beacon, it's just too far away

[shy stirrup]

Im so pissed no one else went left in the ss demo

Literally #1 rule of any metroidvania ever

[ruby oriole]

for shame tammo, for shame, they do their best to bring the most fresh silksong news out of any other channel, and you have ''nothing to say''

[opaque sigil]

Left is the right way

[mint valve]

Thats were chad dave is. the left

[shy stirrup]

Ye that's what im talking about i qanted to see more of dave

[stark estuary]

The reason there are seal-breaking flies in Pharloom is because of Dave, they're attracted to Pale Beings. We see the same flies in WP and AB (ignore the differences in the number of wings and the fact those have a tail, also ignore the fact that some of those are Monarchflies). Another thing to note is that Dave was apparently ridiculously difficult to kill. Checks out, he's a HB after all. Also, if PK had foresight then that means he could predict the fall of his kingdom and just...leave. And no, he did not die from Void. Now you may be thinking about the fact Dave has limbs. Well, Bardoon just says Wyrms have less limbs than him, a requirement Dave satisfies (we know Wyrms can have limbs from the Colosseum Bug/Lord Fool anyway). Did I mention Dave's colouration? He's... pale. Know who else is pale? Bingo. Think about it.

[mint valve]

Dave=villain?!? no

[young saffron]

hornets cloak is called the hunters cloak
that means shes the hunters daughter??

[stark estuary]

PK is not a villain so yes.

[coarse leaf]

I'm not a villain

[short wagon]

I wonder if the E3 demo had some kind of agreement with TC and why am I only seeing other footage of the E3 demo now

[opaque sigil]

TC made the E3 demo. And how would a demo have an agreement with anything, it's just a piece of software

[short wagon]

After all, E3 is in Los Angeles and I can't get a demo in China

What a sad story

[serene chasm]

what

[opaque sigil]

The demo was at some other events too...

But nobody anywhere can get a copy

[serene chasm]

I wonder if graig will get permission to release it way after SS comes out

[tribal merlin]

I don't believe the "demo" is a standalone distributable piece of software

[vagrant umbra]

If it’s the same as Hollow Knight’s demo, it should be soon(tm) + 4 years

[tribal merlin]

there's strong indications it was only planned to run on some dedicated machines

[vagrant umbra]

The demo? That was on the switch cabinets.

[tribal merlin]

exactly

[opaque sigil]

The HK beta was built for PC

And built to be distributed accordingly

[shy stirrup]

tbf i think we have enough footage of this demo anyways

the original hk beta we had like no footage of

[vagrant umbra]

On a scale of Stardew Valley to Minecraft, how popular do you all think Silksong will be in pop-culture? I’m thinking and hoping somewhere above Deltarune Chapter 2.

[opaque sigil]

Probably below deltarune tbh

[vagrant umbra]

[opaque sigil]

Even if it's a better game, undertale and deltarune are just more well known

Then again deltarune craze passed pretty quickly

[vagrant umbra]

Fortunately, Spamton memes will never die.

[opaque sigil]

Fortunately?

[vagrant umbra]

What can I say? He’s hilarious.

[opaque sigil]

Maybe but people randomly putting brackets in messages because of him isn't

Although that has died down

[copper knot]

queen memes > spamton memes

It Means Tities

[burnt topaz]

that line made me audibly laugh

[copper knot]

that shit made me chuckle in game

[long comet]

WHAT THE F[ifty percent off]?!

[copper knot]

What If I Start Typing Like This (LMAO)

[burnt topaz]

please dont

[copper knot]

lmao

[serene chasm]

I hope nothing is SS is memeable

[gilded adder]

They will find a way. They always do.

[burnt topaz]

Like large-scale memable, like there's not gonna be a sans or something

[opaque sigil]

Trobbio and Sherma seem pretty memable

[serene chasm]

[opaque sigil]

HK had Zote as the meme and that worked out ok

[gilded adder]

Zote the Mighty and Sherma the Puny

[coral glacier]

We also had hornet is void as a meme

[gilded adder]

me when song

[coral glacier]

Me when milksong