sk-discussion

[burnt topaz]

As a joke, right?

[summer kindle]

well i've been trying to be more active recently but still

[glossy gazelle]

The disease is spawned from reading too many awful takes in this chat

[burnt topaz]

Oh

[opaque sigil]

Nah people who think it's a prequel often genuinely expect/want (they can be a bit imprecise) that

[pallid flare]

guys silksong can't be a seueql if sealed siblings exists

that make no senes

[trim estuary]

But it can’t be a prequel because hornets tools

[glossy gazelle]

I mean even if it was a prequel it’s still gonna be disconnected from hallownest

[trim estuary]

It must be a midquel

[shell yacht]

the disease is this chat. youll never get silksong because this is it, congrats youre all npcs

[opaque sigil]

Exactly

[pallid flare]

damn I am one advanced AI

[opaque sigil]

npcs.. in silksong?

[summer kindle]

wow i'm an awful npc

where's the main character can i go shank them please

[trim estuary]

Huh

[summer hearth]

why cant it be a sequel then

[trim estuary]

It’s your mom

[burnt topaz]

We were waiting for Silksong but the silksong was in us the entire time

[summer kindle]

alr well time to shank my mom

[trim estuary]

#sk-discussion message

[shell yacht]

real talk how many endings yall think theres gonna be
my guess varies from 2-7

[glossy gazelle]

The true Silksong was the friends that we made along the way

[pallid flare]

somewhere between 1 and 100

[summer hearth]

@trim estuary after all she does lay spikey balls down in her second fight and maybe she can't repair the rest in hollownest

[glossy gazelle]

Probably a similar number to Hollow Knight

[opaque sigil]

I imagine at least 2. HK originally had two fundamental endings, THK and SS are kind of variants of the same thing, and dnm is something wholly different

[summer kindle]

i think silksong will have 0 endings

[trim estuary]

They’re different spiky balls

[glossy gazelle]

So so like 2-4

[summer kindle]

IT NEVER ENDS THE PAIN NEVER STOPS

[burnt topaz]

Like 4 maybe then for the real achievement hunters

[summer hearth]

can be attributed to the enviroment

[burnt topaz]

Constantly updated

[trim estuary]

Ok then why not make the others

[summer hearth]

sorry ment prequel not sequel

[summer kindle]

yes

[summer hearth]

doesn't have the materials

[trim estuary]

Then how make spiky ball

[glossy gazelle]

I’m also guessing the 4th ending will be locked by a pain in the rear true final boss

[opaque sigil]

Hornet tells forge daughter that she is without her usual tools, which seems like a pretty clear nod to the spike balls being something she had in HK

[summer hearth]

also how i understand it she doesn't make them only repair them

[trim estuary]

Forge daughter final boss

[summer kindle]

the devs actually cannot die, or do anything that doesn't contribute to the progress of silksong. they are cursed to work eternally until the universe dies and with it they will be freed

[burnt topaz]

But hornets needles can't go through bells, so how...

[summer kindle]

oh and i guess if you stop asking for silksong the curse will be lifted

[opaque sigil]

And TC has pretty explicitly given a mechanism for her to lose her abilities between the end of HK and the beginning of SS, so that's not really an argument for prequel

[trim estuary]

Exactly

[summer kindle]

but sealed siblings !

oops i didn't mean to ping you i'm sorry

[glossy gazelle]

Yeah her weakening caused her to lose Gossamer Storm

[summer kindle]

her needle got brokey by falling

[opaque sigil]

They've also hinted at a possibility of that being solvable

[trim estuary]

Does she use gossamer storm to escape the cage or does she just explode

[shell yacht]

also slim possibility, she may just notice from muscle memory. like say introductory bossfight, hits tool button expecting something, nothing cant recall what bc amnesia

[glossy gazelle]

As for seal siblings, seal breaking bugs in the intro

[summer kindle]

she just explodes

[coarse leaf]

Sealed Siblings

[trim estuary]

Also isn’t it confirmed she uses Naruto hand gestures to activate silk abilities

[summer kindle]

tesseract?!!

[coarse leaf]

Hello!

[summer kindle]

hello

[opaque sigil]

I mean come on, why do you think TC featured the seal breakers so prominently? It was pretty clearly a nod to the sealed siblings ending.

[summer hearth]

can't end if it nevers starts XD

[proud vale]

Hey friends

[glossy gazelle]

Although if the Sealed Siblings bugs are being conducted by Lace, how dafuq would she know Hornet’s been sealed? Or do the bugs just go on auto pilot

[shell yacht]

by lace??

[summer kindle]

XD

[opaque sigil]

I mean she has other knowledge of Hornet's situation so maybe she's been watching or having info relayed to her

[burnt topaz]

Wouldn't be surprised if the bell folk could just take a bug with them

[summer kindle]

sending that hurt

[trim estuary]

#sk-discussion message

[summer hearth]

if hornet is like the dreamers in sealed siblings (ss lol) she could still be walking round. At least i don't remember anything binding the dreamers to sleep eternally

[summer kindle]

but that's benji

[burnt topaz]

Do you not trust Benji?

[summer kindle]

but how get out of egg if she the seal

[trim estuary]

Yeah he’s a playtester

[opaque sigil]

Seal break, she wake, she leave

[summer kindle]

how seal break

[opaque sigil]

Seal breaking bugs or smth similar

[summer kindle]

but what if that is different kind of seal that bug wont work on

[opaque sigil]

Why would it be

[proud vale]

You gotta trust Benji, he's a melee god

[summer kindle]

thats the argument someone used a while ago

[summer hearth]

@summer kindle correct me if im wrong but we don't see her in the egg when it's sealed do we

[trim estuary]

We do
She’s in the room when the knight becomes the hollow knight

[opaque sigil]

It's a dumb argument. If the bugs were intended as a nod to the possibility of escape then regardless of whether there's abundant other evidence that they can break it, it's reasonable to assume that it's at least possible that they could

[burnt topaz]

Shes in the cutscene and very unconcious

[summer kindle]

"what if the hornet seal works differently and the seal breaking butterflies don't work we don't know" essentially

[trim estuary]

So we didn’t have to kill the dreamers?

[summer kindle]

and yeah it is dumb

[opaque sigil]

I mean TK didn't have other ways to do it

Although if you just do EtV you can get away with not killing dreamers

[proud vale]

I think seals canonically weaken over time as well don't they?

[opaque sigil]

I mean there are some that seem to be faded but it isn't really established that they fade naturally, at least not that all seals do

[summer hearth]

i mean nothing tells us we have to, we just do and it works

[opaque sigil]

The dreamer seal is probably somewhat actively sustained by the dreamers, though, I doubt that one would fade

[trim estuary]

No I mean a way to break the seals without killing them

We could’ve just waited for the bell cultists or something

[summer hearth]

i would argue dreamers don't actually have to sleep and they could actively stop the seal if they wanted

but since they do not for us to break the seal we have to kill them

[coarse leaf]

From what do you argue that?

[opaque sigil]

Monomon

[summer hearth]

at the dreamers memorial there is a line our duty holds it shall be done

[opaque sigil]

Tbf it would probably have been too late by then

[shell yacht]

their supposed extra abilities are fading but the seal itself is intact

[summer hearth]

wich could indicate that the steal still holds since they think its their duty to uphold it

[opaque sigil]

If monomon could have deactivated her part of the deal she would have

[shy kiln]

Do we know if The bug in the (forbidden name) trailer that we see mixing up stuff in a Cauldron is accessible right after the first boss fight or if we need more items to get there?

[opaque sigil]

Instead she has TK kill her

Maybe after silk spear, but it isn’t a long time. They were mentioned in edge

I can’t recall whether it was before or after that ability though

[proud vale]

It's probably before the boss fight still in the same area

But behind one of the weaver doors

[summer hearth]

if I remember correctly then monomon was the only one that wanted to undo the seal, her not doing that i always attributed to her mask beeing gone

[summer hearth]

in my mind before she gets her mask back she is essentially a mindless hust, a tool to hold the seal not much more

also there is an uncertainty about how the dreamers where created

is hornet the same kind of seal, did she enter an eternal sleep

[languid linden]

[opaque sigil]

The mask just prevents TK from killing her without it

And even with it she still can’t just wake up

[summer hearth]

But yeah i dont have any particular starting point for this, its just how to justify ss as sequel with sealed siblings ending

[summer hearth]

Objection, speculative

[summer hearth]

Yes but why, so since u enter their mind i always attributed that to her mind not beeing fully there

[shell yacht]

objection you are cheese

[summer hearth]

Thats why i said there is no guarantee that hornet even has to sleep

[shell yacht]

except one wants to undo the seal but literally cannot do it herself

[shell yacht]

there is

[summer hearth]

Where?

[shell yacht]

Monomon

[proud vale]

You can't just object someone on the basis of them being cheese

[shell yacht]

ok Skeletal disney guy

if that is your real name

[cunning geode]

Okay Water
If that even is 70-80% of your body mass

[summer hearth]

It isnt even cheese its a cracker

[shell yacht]

what

[summer hearth]

Its a cracker

[burnt topaz]

That's a nasty looking cracker

[shell yacht]

ugh

[burnt topaz]

I have been wondering what it was though

[proud vale]

that is my real name, yeah

[summer hearth]

No im asking where is the proof that the sleeping is necessary for the seal, mabe it was a concious choice trying to make the seal last eternally

I don't remember any point in the game where it tells us the holders of the seal have to sleep

[shell yacht]

the fact that the one trying to undo it doesnt just wake up?

the fact that theyre called dreamers my guy

Herra doesnt wake up when her only kid visists her etc

Dreamers stay asleep, period

also i think the resting grounds plaque says something about this, or the CoT statue

[summer hearth]

Im not saying the dreamers dont have to sleep, im saying we dont know if its
A) a side effect of the seal
B) a concious choice they made when sealing the hollow knight, trying to improve the seal

[burnt topaz]

The cot statue calls it a sacrifice right? So them having to sleep makes sense

[shell yacht]

Hornet wouldnt conciously become a dreamer as she states her intention to only stay in the black egg temple for a moment so she doesnt get affected by its spells

[silver oak]

This kinda feels like a #hk-lore thing

[shell yacht]

[burnt topaz]

We do anything and everything here

[shell yacht]

except talk about silksong

[silver oak]

Well I know that

[burnt topaz]

Also this is technically relevant to silksong if we're tying it to sealed siblings

[cunning geode]

At least you’re talking about one Hollow Knight game

[nimble radish]

another ss

[coarse leaf]

Close enough

[summer hearth]

I mean there could be more idk its just the 2 i see as obvious

[broken robin]

considering herrah asked for a "dalliance" with the king, it's probably a conscious choice

[summer hearth]

Well actually this discusion is mostly about the viability of ss as a sequel with the sealed siblings ending so its knida talkin bout it

[summer hearth]

The sacrifice in the cot statue is about the hollow knight

[burnt topaz]

Ok, I have not touched hk in a while

[summer hearth]

The question is is sleeping a required part of sealing the egg or a choice that the dreamers made. If its a choice then hornet may be a walking seal

Maybe the eternal sleep is just there to make it last forever

But how can you say that with certainty

[shell yacht]

the seal forces sleep i answered your question already

[safe yoke]

maybe it's two different seals. their sleep creates a seal around them to keep them safe. and the seal that was created from their lives that keeps the seal safe

[shell yacht]

.

[summer hearth]

Then prove it, prove to me becomming a dreamer is the only way to seal the egg

[shell yacht]

what

[burnt topaz]

What are you really looking for here though?

It feels like its been answered to the best of our ability

[summer hearth]

Im not trying to look to prove anything im trying to disprove that its impossible that silksong is a sequal because of sealed siblings

[shell yacht]

how do i prove that the thing we are shown and told no less than 4 times is how they seal the egg? idk man, it just works

[burnt topaz]

What

[nimble radish]

it just works

[summer hearth]

Its mostly about can hornet be the seal and be in silksong

[safe yoke]

probably

[summer hearth]

Thats why the sleeping is important, if she has to sleep she cant

[burnt topaz]

We're going off the basis that the seal is broken for hornet to be in ss

[summer hearth]

Im arguing she doesnt have to be a dreamer to be the seal

[safe yoke]

maybe the sleep caused a separate seal. the one that keeps them safe from physical damage and makes them eternal

[summer hearth]

Thats what i was suggesting yes

[shell yacht]

me stating how the seal works was not denying sealed sinblings as a possible SS starting point. infact Sealed Siblings is the most likely ending since they capture her asleep

[safe yoke]

to keep the main seal safe

[summer hearth]

That is also a theory, maybe it will just make the dream no more ending canon for silksong which is what i asumed so far

[safe yoke]

Maybe it's some form of price for eternal safety

[summer hearth]

For example they seal the black egg and the pale king seals them to keep them from harm

[safe yoke]

It was probably their intention. essentially killing the dreamers, but keeping them alive forever

[shell yacht]

ok possibility, masks were thought to be a seperate craft so hornet would be maskless.
but being in the temple still kinda keeps her safe

[summer hearth]

If its sealed siblings ending and the seal works how you say they would need to break the seal to get her since she is in the egg, which they can only do by destroying her and even if they managed to get out of that conundrum she still couldnt wake up to be ss protagonist

[coarse leaf]

sealed siblings gives clues on because it had a seal of binding on it

[safe yoke]

maybe as a seal barer she can just go through the seal

[coarse leaf]

they might have taken hornet straight from the egg temple, that explains why she is uncontious

[shell yacht]

seal has some specific and automatic reactions. if they somehow get her out the egg then out the kingdom it may wear off

[coarse leaf]

its enough time to put another seal

[shell yacht]

what

[coarse leaf]

how was she captured in the first place is the most important part in this theory

[summer hearth]

What if the price for creating the dreamers in this way was his existence

Then hornet created without that would be diffrent

[coarse leaf]

the pale king probably died from the void, as is an old version of the game says his last words
'false one you may not reach me here'

[warm bone]

🤓

[fiery coral]

which is such a boring way to pick up the plot after leaving it at the Sealed Siblings cutscene

[burnt topaz]

Tc just aren't gonna mention it

[dusty nimbus]

Sealed siblings? Dream no more? Come on it's 20XX let's play silksong

[burnt topaz]

21XX

[fiery coral]

my character is now perpetually imprisoned, and through my actions the one who assisted me is unconscious, and is trapped with me too with no way to escape. Truly Hallownest cannot recover

eh nah this bug you never heard of in the entire game can just get her outta there in a jiffy lmao

[coarse leaf]

[fiery coral]

Hello Tesseract

[dusty nimbus]

Tess now has the non anime pfp

[burnt topaz]

I like the sunset pfp

[nimble radish]

hornet is completely removed from hallownest either way

the affect on hallownest is basically the same, except for the fact that hallownest is extra fucked if the egg is open

[summer hearth]

Thats the point what if he is super dead as a reaction to the dreamers still sleeping

So maybee just maybe silksong actually happens during hollow knight inbetween the hornet fights ;)

[burnt topaz]

Midquel

[summer hearth]

I dont think there would be that great a diffrence except if its sealed siblings ending and she is a walking seal and dies hallownest is fucked

[languid linden]

Hallownest is screwed in the THK ending too

[cunning geode]

so you’ve chosen death

[summer hearth]

@languid linden not necessarily

[pallid flare]

virgin "hornet didnt go all out in her first fight"

chad "hornet was away for silksong and became stronger because of that"

[languid linden]

TK cannot hold Rad forever

[frank marten]

fordo, kindly explain to me wtf are those images

[languid linden]

Upzote and Downzote

[frank marten]

i shall comit no air lung

[glossy gazelle]

Yeah the Knight isn't completely hollow in the THK ending. with the Void Heart in Sealed Siblings ending...debatable

[burnt topaz]

the downzote looks so happy

not so down after all

[frank marten]

and upzote depressed as hek

english not gud today

[summer hearth]

Where does he say that

[tawdry valley]

New to me.

[glossy gazelle]

Being a Higher Being will do that to you

[tawdry valley]

Source would be appreciated

In which case it was cut for good reason

[languid linden]

No.

[frank marten]

cut content should not be taken as cannon

[languid linden]

It is literally impossible for him to have been killed by Void

[frank marten]

maybe the void had a gun?

[summer hearth]

We dont know that for sure, i think the common opinion is that thk couldnt hold rad cuz he was impure, tainted by emotion.
Now there isn't an ocvurence where our character shows any of that canonically, its a mute thing walking around killing everything in its path, sometimes giving ppl money

[pallid flare]

a cannon

[fiery coral]

Hollowness discussion time!

[frank marten]

ey

[fiery coral]

[glossy gazelle]

Same reason that axed Hornet dialogue shouldn't be used to confirm prequel

[languid linden]

One second

[fiery coral]

Fordo about to post the mind/will wall?

[languid linden]

Proof The Knight isn't hollow/pure

Will:
-"...It refuses to trade...? It has a will... all Its own." -Steel Soul Jinn
"You take part in the Ritual, yet I sense you truly have no Master. Is it so?" -Brumm.
These dialogues show that TK acts on their own free will, and is not controlled by the player themself.
-Before the events of the game TK escaped the Abyss, left Hallownest, trained, and returned, showing free will in the choices they make outside of the players control.
-"An emptiness that was hidden within, now unconstrained. Unifies the void under the bearer's will." -Void Heart.
This shows TK has a will of their own since they control the void, not anybody else.
-Sitting with Quirrel shows them acting on their own will, because Quirrel does not ask them to sit at Blue Lake, TK chooses to sit.
-"Though you may fall, your will shall carry you forward." -Seer.
Implies TK doesn't give up, and has a strong will to keep going.

Mind:
-Giving the Delicate Flowers to Oro, Godseeker, and Elderbug shows kindness, which means TK if sealing Radiance is susceptible to the infection. It's highly unlikely TK expects an award from them because Oro asks TK to take the flower back or he'll throw it away, but TK leaves it there anyway.
-Listening to Marissa's music at anytime they want too.
-Nosk transforms into Hornet in Godhome which shows The Knight has a bond with Hornet, which means TK is susceptible to the infection.
-The Knight sitting with the Nailmasters and meditating with them.
-Not killing the Nailsmith shows mercy.
-Saves grubs from jars before knowing of an award.
-Saying yes or no shows free will
-TK has a revelation which is usually tied in with emotion

This wall isn't that TK taking these actions means they aren't hollow, it's about how they can have a choice to take these actions that makes them not hollow. They have the mental capacity to make their own choices, show emotion, etc, which makes them susceptible to the infection when sealing Radiance.

[nimble radish]

do it fordo, execute order 66

[fiery coral]

knew it

[languid linden]

By tropical punch

[minor gale]

When

[glossy gazelle]

Ah I haven't seen a wall of text in a while

[nimble radish]

I would have just picked out the parts relating to emotions

as in, hornet nosk
flowers
so on

[cunning geode]

you used 4 woozy emotes

feeling alright?

[nimble radish]

3 woozies, 1 groozy

[glossy gazelle]

I mean they tried to seal away the radiance away by forgeting about her and that didn't work. I think as long as radiance is in someone's memory she'll come back

Kingdom location is irrevelant

basically what I'm saying is the pale king's plan is flawed from the start

[summer hearth]

So your saying go on a genocide run to make the radiance disapear?

[glossy gazelle]

Until it didn't, and he then tried to do the Hollow Knight plan

Obviously that wasn't intentional considering "no mind to think'

[opaque sigil]

The only reason forgetting Rad didn't work is because she wasn't ever actually forgotten

[nimble radish]

they weren't exactly trying to forget her, it just sorta happened

[glossy gazelle]

Which does beg the question of why he even said the "no mind to think" part to begin with. and the "no will to break" is also wrong so...I will just dub this a Pale King moment

[nimble radish]

🆙

[opaque sigil]

Simplest answer is they aren't literal requirements

[summer hearth]

This its like with ended releationships your not gonna do anything to your ex unless she comes screaching at you

[nimble radish]

it feels pk man

[nimble radish]

this is not a relatable scenario we are gamers we don't date

[glossy gazelle]

The lack of voice is the only thing actually correct, since Hollow Knight only is audible when the radiance is possessing him and it's the radiance shouting through him

[languid linden]

My take on it is that Hollowness cannot work

[glossy gazelle]

I've heard speculation that those word were just spoken to the original Hollow Knight so he could see his goal, and that it's more of a motivation than a statement.

[languid linden]

Because TC didn't think about it as much as we do

[summer hearth]

I mean they made a concious decition to switch gods, not everyone wanted that though

[fiery coral]

I personally believe with the amount of contradictions and the extremely poor/vague definition provided to us, TC just intended us to believe TK is Hollow and not look at the plotholes

[nimble radish]

in that case death of the author applies 🥴

[glossy gazelle]

That's probably the theory I'll go with, considering he was the only one to make it out of the abyss when the Pale King asked. (and the Abyss opens a separate set of plotholes)

[opaque sigil]

If hollowness is viable then by any discernable measure it is arbitrary

[languid linden]

Yeah

[glossy gazelle]

I'm wondering if the Pale King wanted to train the vessel to be Hollow rather than it being hollow from the start. It still didn't work

[pallid flare]

doesnt their statement "every playthrough is canon in its right" contradict many of the points

[opaque sigil]

In what way

[glossy gazelle]

elaborate please

[nimble radish]

thk being doomed to fail fits the narrative of "all things must end" and such

[pallid flare]

mostly this

a player can choose to not do the things listed

[opaque sigil]

The fact that TK is capable of chosing not to do those things in a playthrough is if anything more evidence that a will exists

[languid linden]

Yes we've had this conversation a lot

[fiery coral]

the Knight doesn't actively choose anything it's the player

[opaque sigil]

[fiery coral]

yes yes player isn't canon I know

[pallid flare]

lets not talk about the player

[fiery coral]

but still

[glossy gazelle]

Yeah I know there's not much backing this, but it's the most realistic conclusion I can come to

[pallid flare]

I feel like they didnt think too hard about this

[glossy gazelle]

It's motivation rather than describing the vessel

[opaque sigil]

Still what? Player isn't a canonical agent, no decision making can be attributed to them canonically

[summer hearth]

Which is kind of stupid if you think about it since beeing hollow isnt about learning but more about forgetting

[glossy gazelle]

I would have more evidence pointing to this, but cut dream dialogue isn't canon

[pallid flare]

how much are the knight's actions actually theirs

[fiery coral]

death of the author means something like the author's intentions don't matter when interpreting their work, right?

[pallid flare]

this is the problem I think

[fiery coral]

personally that never made any sense to me at all

[opaque sigil]

Entirely

[nimble radish]

yeah something like that

[glossy gazelle]

I mean it's not really a Kris situation where the Knight is being controlled by an outside force

[pallid flare]

no it is not

[opaque sigil]

You take part in the Ritual, yet I sense you truly have no Master.

[glossy gazelle]

The Knight just does what it pleases

[fiery coral]

the situation is that the Knight is being controlled by us the player because it's a video game

mind blowing, I know

[opaque sigil]

Not canonically it isn't

[glossy gazelle]

That was a joke-

[languid linden]

But not like in Undertale or Deltarune where the Player canonically exists

[fiery coral]

how does Undertale matter though

[glossy gazelle]

I just had to use the Kris comparison-

[languid linden]

They directly address the player

[glossy gazelle]

Already regret my decision

[languid linden]

HK does not

[fiery coral]

if you're going to make a game about a Hollow entity literally anything and everything about the player character will only work by the player's interaction

[warm bone]

🦧

[opaque sigil]

I mean in the case of TK it's explicitly stated that there is a will and that TK has no master

[burnt topaz]

why do his legs look like that

[warm bone]

Ooo ooo aa aa

[burnt topaz]

oh ok

[fiery coral]

TK has no master because Brumm isn't going to realise there's a guy on the other side of the screen who pressed buttons to get TK there

[opaque sigil]

That doesn't change that TK is stated to have a will

And player still isn't a canonical agent

[glossy gazelle]

again that was a joke-

I can hear the jokes going right over Tammo head rn

[opaque sigil]

[pallid flare]

I love how none of the "hollow knights" are actually hollow what the fuck team cherry

[glossy gazelle]

because Pale king doesn't know what the word hollow means

[warm bone]

Filled knights

[nimble radish]

it's very possible that's not what tc meant when they used the word hollow
pure is used for the vessel too

[summer hearth]

No master does not necesairily mean will

[opaque sigil]

Bruh VH explicitly says that TK has a will

[pallid flare]

who is this VH entity

[opaque sigil]

An emptiness that was hidden within, now unconstrained. Unifies the void under the bearer's will.

There's also Jinn and Seer

[terse geyser]

Hi is there some news about the game?

[glossy gazelle]

If pure apparently equals hollow in the Hollow Knight universe, I guess in some weird way they could be hollow

?sspsa

[thin zephyr]

Reminder: The latest news for both Hollow Knight and Silksong is in #hk-announcements.
Check the pinned messages for more information, including a FAQ.

[nimble radish]

yeah it released

[opaque sigil]

Hornet also explicitly states the Knight to be able to make its own decisions

[summer hearth]

Objection, slander. Idk if that can actually be used here since he doesnt know if he has a will since not trading is actually more a point towards not having one. Beeing able to trade is the problem

[opaque sigil]

TK is capable of trading or choosing not to trade

...It refuses to trade...?** It has a will... all Its own. Can refuse. **Jinn will keep waiting... until a gift comes.

[summer hearth]

I mean yes but its void

[opaque sigil]

ie if TK did not have a will it would be unable to refuse

[glossy gazelle]

void =/= hollow my dude

[opaque sigil]

It isn't not trading that's pertinent, it's an active refusal

[glossy gazelle]

Void may have destroyed the Knight vocal chords but it can still make choices

[summer hearth]

But yeah to discuss this we gotta define what mind means in this context. Since if you define minda as beeing able to reason and feel tk might not have one. Since desitions perse aren't indicative of reasoning or feeling

[glossy gazelle]

man this entire conversation about hollowness turned us into #hk-lore 2

[fiery coral]

Because Hollowness has no clear meaning

[opaque sigil]

TK has memories, as proven by winged nosk and its capacity to draw maps

[fiery coral]

And so we are forced to draw our own conclusions

[opaque sigil]

TK has imagination, as proved by its ability to use dreamgate

[glossy gazelle]

Wow brumm doesn't deserve to be bullied

[cerulean sable]

God of War confirmed on PC now

SS is inevitable

[fiery coral]

I'm half sure they never did

[glossy gazelle]

Hi Taco

[summer hearth]

That also releates to no will to break. If you intepret will as a goal then this could also be considered to be absent from tk

[fiery coral]

[opaque sigil]

Hold the Dream Nail tight, wielder, and imagine a great gate opening before you!
If you wanna assert that imagination is possible without a mind, uh... putting yourself in kind of a weird spot

[fiery coral]

Didn't we already establish PK's requirements are stupid and useless-

[opaque sigil]

TK explicitly and unambiguously has a will. Any claim based on the assumption that it does not is objectively and immediately wrong

[glossy gazelle]

Except it does have a goal, depending on the ending it's "contain the infection" or "defeat the source of the infection"

[fiery coral]

Imagine knowing English

[summer hearth]

Why do you need imagination to use the dreamgate

[fiery coral]

This line

[opaque sigil]

Hold the Dream Nail tight, wielder, and imagine a great gate opening before you!
Seer, instructing TK on how to use the dream gate
🐌

Unique you can't snail me I posted it the first time too

[fiery coral]

Watch me

[glossy gazelle]

If you are gonna claim the knight doesn't have a goal, I do question what you think he is doing in Hallownest

[opaque sigil]

You don't snail me I snail me

[warm bone]

#hk-lore

Just saying

[fiery coral]

Thing is

[glossy gazelle]

regardless the goal is still facing the infection

[fiery coral]

We can be less serious here

Whereas in #hk-lore Water will have me demodded if I step out of line once

Especially after yesterday's events

[glossy gazelle]

what happened yesterday?

[viral pivot]

^

[fiery coral]

A pun chain

[warm bone]

#silly_lore

[fiery coral]

And just general fooling around, really

[summer hearth]

The knight has cognitive abilities that can be seen by outwards ppl as a will, which doesn't necesarily mean he has one. It does not mean he has a will as used by the pale king

[glossy gazelle]

I mean I'm guessing she's 30 in bug years

[fiery coral]

Water thankfully was merciful enough to not mute anyone (well except me but I can remove the role myself so 😎)

[glossy gazelle]

or close to that

[opaque sigil]

An emptiness that was hidden within, now unconstrained. Unifies the void under the bearer's will.
If TK had no will, Void Heart would not work

Good thing we have an omniscient source saying that TK isn't a philosophical zombie

[glossy gazelle]

Yeah the Knight isn't a zombie

Although most of the bugs in Hallownest could be considered zombies

[summer hearth]

@opaque sigil its the same as in a discussion i had with a friend.

• a waterfall is falling water
• an avalange is falling snow
• snow is water
  Still an avalange isnt a waterfall because the water used in both statements don't have the same meaning while beeing the same word

[glossy gazelle]

wut

[opaque sigil]

False equivocation, great

It isn't like that at all

[glossy gazelle]

Man I'm so glad Hornet isn't "hollow" so this discussion won't repeat twice

[opaque sigil]

Nor is there any ambiguity about certain other aspects of her physical composition

[pallid flare]

why spider have hip

[opaque sigil]

More or less. A philosophical zombie has no consciousness but outwardly is indistinguishable from a being with one.

Will is a part of consciousness

[charred cloak]

God of War is coming to pc before silksong is

[trim estuary]

anthropomorphic

[summer hearth]

@opaque sigil will can mean control over your actions, it can also mean a drive a striving. My point beeing jin and voidheard use the prior the pale king uses the second one

[opaque sigil]

That's baseless, and Hornet and Seer say that TK has the second kind anyways

[summer hearth]

@opaque sigil that way the statement can be considered true for tk it may have a will but it doesnt have a will

[charred cloak]

who put a no on my statement? show yourself

[glossy gazelle]

yeah because hornet is void died in a hole

[opaque sigil]

TK isn't lacking in will by any definition

[glossy gazelle]

btw how did hornet is void start again?

[opaque sigil]

Used to be a common belief for some reason unknown to me

[warm bone]

Mossbag is all knowing

[summer hearth]

Where do they say that

[glossy gazelle]

I mean Hornet deconfirms that theory herself

[opaque sigil]

...So strong...
You could do it, if you had the will.

Though you may fall, your will shall carry you forward.

[glossy gazelle]

Ah yes, black = void argument. Forgot that was a thing for a while

[opaque sigil]

In the first case, TK notably is able to "do it," it being defeat THK/kill Rad/unite Void and all that

Also

You've seen beyond this kingdom's bounds. Yours is resilience born of two voids.

Clearly this isn't physical resilience

[glossy gazelle]

still dunno what the second void is

[summer hearth]

IF YOU HAD implying he doesnt

[versed hull]

https://libraryofbabel.info/

[glossy gazelle]

why

[opaque sigil]

Except it does, because it is able to do that which Hornet says it could do if it had sufficient will

[versed hull]

Silksong is contained within

[glossy gazelle]

[opaque sigil]

Here, the achievement name for the GP fight "test of resolve" is pretty damning

Plus all along Hornet's been talking about strength of will

The only time she talks about physical strength explicitly is preceding her second fight, in all other instances it's the capacity to bear the burdens necessitated by their task

[cerulean sable]

hi

[summer hearth]

He could do it if he HAD enough will which implies he doesnt.
If i tell you you could buy it if you had the money it means u dont have the money
If you had i would say you can buy it if you have the money

[opaque sigil]

In no other instances aside from those two is Hornet's dialogue comprehensible if she refers to physical ability

[fiery coral]

🌮

[opaque sigil]

If I say "you could buy it, if you had $20" and then you buy it, that implies you had $20

That's what happens here. TK does the things that Hornet says it could do if it had sufficient will, implying that it had sufficient will

[shell yacht]

just hold forward and swing nail

[summer hearth]

@opaque sigil it also implies that u do not think i have 20 dolars

[opaque sigil]

No, it implies that I think you need 20 dollars

Funny then, that such darkness gives me hope. Within it, I see the chance of change.
Hornet thinks that TK is capable of doing everything that she wants it to do

[fiery coral]

To be fair, I've seen "had" more used for hypothetical scenarios

But yeah it doesn't necessarily mean only that

[opaque sigil]

And in this scenario the hypothetical would be realized

[glossy gazelle]

Imagine not losing several attempts to Hornet 2 heh heh heh......I am dead inside

[opaque sigil]

In order to take the Hornet dialogue as evidence that TK has no will you have to assume it's a conditional contrary to fact and ignore everything else in the narrative

[summer hearth]

@opaque sigil anyway my point beeing her statement does not imply he actually has a will

[opaque sigil]

It does. As I have endeavored to explain

[shell yacht]

[opaque sigil]

And it definitely doesn't imply that it doesn't have one

[rotund cargo]

time to check this place again

[shell yacht]

go back to class

[opaque sigil]

Did you mean: #hk-announcements

[rotund cargo]

I'm at home

[shell yacht]

go back to class anyway

[opaque sigil]

Because the place to check is #hk-announcements

[summer hearth]

No for that it would have to more acurately state the transaction

[opaque sigil]

Bruh

[rotund cargo]

nah

I was just checking my own discord and one of the supposedly leaked games from the geforce thing have that leaked release date on steam now, and I wanted to see if people were making weird theories here again

[pallid flare]

I want therefore I do?

[opaque sigil]

That alone doesn't lend any more legitimacy to the date

[rotund cargo]

I know

[fiery coral]

they wanted to see theories

[rotund cargo]

that's why I wanted to check this channel because people make up the weirdest stuff in here

[fiery coral]

well there's plenty of speculation, but the general consensus seems to be that date's a placeholder

[shell yacht]

[dusty nimbus]

They wake up?

Then why can't I wake up from this nightmare?

[opaque sigil]

🇲

[burnt topaz]

i left for like an hour and im surprised to see people still talking here, its nice

[shell yacht]

no you gotta set it to 🇼

for Wumbo

[dusty nimbus]

Mmmmmmmmmmm

[dusty nimbus]

🇳 🇴

[shell yacht]

yes

you need the wumbo setting to understand the bullshit in this channel

[glossy gazelle]

🇱

[fiery coral]

what on earth is wumbo-

[glossy gazelle]

I think you can figure out what l means

[fiery coral]

Wombat you have a new nickname?

[opaque sigil]

Powdered, I don't think anything will let me understand the bullshit in this channel

[summer hearth]

If you look at the dialogue before and after yes you can asume she is right. She says if he has the will he can accept the past and claim responsibility of the future. If he HAS the will to do so. You now say he has a will because he took over the hollow knight. Now to actually see that as a transaction you asume he had a will. Since if he just becomes the vessel without caring about past or future it doesnt matter if its tragic or anything. And her statement is inheritly flawed since she asumes he does this because he WANTS it, which is not the case.

[dusty nimbus]

[shell yacht]

embrace the wumbo

[fiery coral]

we call Wombat wumbo now

[dusty nimbus]

[dusty nimbus]

Wumbo for Wombat

[opaque sigil]

And now this wraps back around to the other definition of will that you arbitrarily distinguished, which TK is explicitly stated to have by Void Heart.

An emptiness that was hidden within, now unconstrained. Unifies the void under the bearer's will.

[summer hearth]

Like im not saying your logic is fundamentaly wrong. Im saying her thinking he has the will to save the kingdom doesnt mean he has a will

[opaque sigil]

.

[cerulean sable]

SILKSONG FEB RELEASE IS INEVITABLE
EMBRACE IT OR DIE

[opaque sigil]

[dusty nimbus]

The knight isn't completely hollow

[dusty nimbus]

[fiery coral]

wait until they release it in December instead

😎

[dusty nimbus]

Bruh

[tulip stratus]

Is someone actually arguing The Knight doesn't have a will in spite of the Void Heart's description? (Unifies the void under the bearers's will)

Also why is this in #sk-discussion ?

[fiery coral]

The channels have started blending together

It's been a long wait

[tulip stratus]

Fair

[dusty nimbus]

This channel is the true blend of all

[fiery coral]

Now to get the art and modding people here

[dusty nimbus]

Modding is waiting to start mining until then they stay dormant

And the art people just draw beautiful silksong hypothesis

[cunning geode]

you're dead meat

[fiery coral]

[opaque sigil]

I mean ss-discussion already sometimes talks about what mods they would like to see, and SS fanart pops up now and again

[coarse leaf]

@sinful flare @azure mural

[dusty nimbus]

Hi Wumbo

[pallid flare]

go on

ping them

[burnt topaz]

go on
ping everyone

[dusty nimbus]

Let's see mods in action

[fiery coral]

[dusty nimbus]

@everyone (I know it does nothing)

[opaque sigil]

hey who pinged

[dusty nimbus]

[summer hearth]

Not arbitrairily im saying its 2 drifrent meanings
No will(dream) to break
Under the bearers will(control)

[warm bone]

Hey who pinged

[opaque sigil]

So Will = dream now

Well TK does dream, that's how it accesses the abyss memory, so you're still wrong

[pallid flare]

who pinged?

[coarse leaf]

||BIG SHOT|| from Deltarune Ch. 2 is violently stuck in my head.

[coarse leaf]

I'd ping kaan if he was online but unfortunately he isnt

[summer hearth]

Dream as in the sence of yearning/drive you know when u where a kid and dreamed of beeing a police officer

[glossy gazelle]

watch someone take this out of context and spread it

[summer hearth]

That kinda thing

[opaque sigil]

TK has that too

[pallid flare]

Moderator from Hollow Knight discord said this.... what does this mean????

[trim estuary]

[summer hearth]

That i think is not necesarily true

[trim estuary]

how-?

[opaque sigil]

Desire is what drives arbitrary decisions, which TK is able to make, such as saving grubs without promise of reward, sitting with quirrel, etc

TK has no reason to bring elderbug a flower aside from wanting to do it

[tulip stratus]

Why would they even bother with this quest if they were actually Hallow? If they couldn't dream of Hallownest being saved? If they couldn't want to save their not-so-hollow sibling from the Radiance? If they didn't have the will to do it?

[opaque sigil]

I mean saving THK is impossible

[coarse leaf]

😦

[opaque sigil]

Except in EtV ig

[tulip stratus]

They do still go back to the void with you in Dream No More.
Which is at least way better than when they were trapped in the black egg temple with the infection.

[opaque sigil]

True

[summer hearth]

No desire can drive desitions, truely arbitrairy desitions arent influenced by it though lts a spur of the moment thing doesnt matter anyway

[opaque sigil]

Arbitrary decisions are affected by desire

Same with spur-of-the-moment ones

And bringing elderbug the flower is pretty clearly premeditated

[haughty brook]

Honestly every action TK makes are on its own, there is nobody both from NPC or in the game itselft that tells you what to do, or a big arrow guiding TK to their objective.

[opaque sigil]

Well sometimes there is, but TK can often ignore those instructions anyways

So the decision to follow the instructions is still present

[summer hearth]

Only if you have a desire. Thats why I say it's a missconception. Decitions are always influenced by a multitude of things. Lets say you need to write something. There 2 pens in front of youa red one and right behind of it a black one. Now i may prefer red so i take the one. Now lets say both of them are black, then i won't matter what color i prefer anymore. It delets the outward factor of color that drove my desition

[opaque sigil]

That hypothetical has no bearing on anything

[summer hearth]

@opaque sigil similarly if he does not care does not have feelings it doesn't matter in the desition making

[opaque sigil]

And of course you again fail to acknowledge that TK goes out of its way to act in a manner that is only explicable as emotional, by bringing elderbug a flower

And you don't have to ping me with every message

[coarse leaf]

@opaque sigil hi

[opaque sigil]

There 2 pens in front of youa red one and right behind of it a black one. Now i may prefer red so i take the one. Now lets say both of them are black, then i won't matter what color i prefer anymore. It delets the outward factor of color that drove my desition
This is technically correct but so is saying "the sky appears blue" and it's about equally relevant

[coarse leaf]

I’m sorry, I shouldn’t have acted as such

[summer hearth]

If you pick one of the pens 100 times you may pick the first 60 times and the second 40 times. It becomes arbitrairy. You can still make a desition but in the end it doesnt matter and it may not have been the same doing it over. And we as the player represent that arbitrary decition the knight makes.

[opaque sigil]

Player isn't an element canonically, any decision the player makes is canonically made by the knight

[summer hearth]

Yes and the canonical knight has the ability to make this decitions. Which doesn't mean he cares about it

[opaque sigil]

That doesn't even merit a response

[summer hearth]

The ones who care, is us, the players. Thats why the knight in our playthroughs seem to care about others.

[opaque sigil]

TK acts based on TK's desires and decisions alone

[summer hearth]

If you asume he has desires

[coarse leaf]

what the hell kinda discussion is this

[opaque sigil]

No, independent of any such assumption

Whether TK's desires are extensive or {null}

[summer hearth]

How the fuck can he act on his desires if hedoesnt have desires?

[opaque sigil]

.

At any rate you've completely failed to prove anything

[tulip stratus]

You haven't proven that.

[opaque sigil]

Your positions aren't even consistent

[summer hearth]

So your saying he always acts on his desires even if he doesnt have any?

[shell yacht]

TK has desires

[opaque sigil]

Acting based on no desires

[summer hearth]

Im not trying to prove he doesn't. I'm trying to say it's possible he doesn't have any

[opaque sigil]

It isn't

[coarse leaf]

i don't think his desires are null, that would just mean he wouldn't do anything...ever right?

[opaque sigil]

TK's desires aren't null, it demonstrates their existence time and again

[coarse leaf]

this is such a weird argument

[opaque sigil]

It's absurd

[coarse leaf]

im not even sure what the argument is tbh

same

[opaque sigil]

Whether TK has will

[summer hearth]

Only cuz we cant imagine it doesnt mean it cant be

[opaque sigil]

That's not what people have been saying

[coarse leaf]

i mean he isnt real so how does he have a will

[opaque sigil]

TK has a will within the canon

[summer hearth]

No i dont care if he has a will or not. Im trying to show he may be hollow/able to contain rad

[opaque sigil]

By arguing that TK may not have a will

[tulip stratus]

Pacman is trying to say that TK is hollow and has no desires (or that it's possible), and hasn't provided any real evidence afaik.

[tulip stratus]

Pretty sure having no will or mind is part of the Pale King's definition of "Hollow."

"No will to break. No mind to dream." or something like that.

[opaque sigil]

No will to break, no mind to think, both of which are incoherent if taken literally

[coarse leaf]

ah right, desires are a bit vague though, the fact that tk moves, surely shows that he has desire, because he desired to move, unless im misunderstanding

[opaque sigil]

The fact that TK acts autonomously and independently suggests that there exists a desire to act in the manner in which it does, yes.

[coarse leaf]

cool, so..discussion over?

[tulip stratus]

Which really begs the question of why they thought The Hollow Knight was hollow.

[opaque sigil]

I mean the existence of a will has been repeatedly established and we're still here so I imagine not

[opaque sigil]

I mean the very premise of the plan necessitated the vessel having a mind

If it didn't have one there wouldn't be anywhere to put Radiance

[glossy gazelle]

Like I said, "No mind to think, no will to break, no voice to cry suffering" was probably motivation

[lone token]

mOtiVaTIoNal

[opaque sigil]

Ultimately it doesn't really matter. There's no discernable metric by which TK would succeed where THK failed, so either it's arbitrary as far as we can tell or both just fail anyways regardless of the actual qualifications of a pure being

[glossy gazelle]

Again, if the dialogue wasn't cut I could back up that theory more

[opaque sigil]

Yeah PV cut dnd would be great if it were canon

[fiery coral]

voting for arbitrary on that one

[tulip stratus]

What cut dialogue?

[glossy gazelle]

Pure vessel's cut dialogue

[opaque sigil]

Do not think...
Do not speak...
Do not hope...
Do not...
...

Note the irony of the dream nail dialogue "Do not think"

[summer hearth]

@opaque sigil i do not belive that. Look at jellyfish they dont have a prain but still have a behaviour

[coarse leaf]

the cut dialogue was "Do not release silksong"

[tulip stratus]

Oh I heard someone mention that in a video about God Seeker lore.
Wonder why it was cut.

[coarse leaf]

"don't think, don't think, don't think, wait....fuck"

[glossy gazelle]

Do not think goes with "no mind to think" do not hope goes with "no will to break" no voice to cry suffering goes with "do not speak"

[opaque sigil]

Jellyfish have a nervous system and presumably act based on instinct

[tulip stratus]

Wait... "do not speak?"
Does that mean they could speak if they wanted to?

[opaque sigil]

Desire is one mechanism of instinct

[shell yacht]

speak is the one complete success, vessels dont talk

[opaque sigil]

Maybe. Void can vocalize and vessels can understand language

Vessels don't talk, but there isn't really strong indication that they fundamentally can't

[glossy gazelle]

Yeah nothing is sayin they can't talk, but it's a common theory that they can't

[coarse leaf]

could they not just use sign language or smthn?

[glossy gazelle]

The game probably would be a lot different if they decided to actually speak

[opaque sigil]

If sign language is even a thing in-universe

[coarse leaf]

i mean, at the very least one vessel could have waved to another at some point

[opaque sigil]

LK bows to TK

ig that counts

[coarse leaf]

oh yh

whos LK

[opaque sigil]

Lost Kin

[coarse leaf]

when does he bow

[opaque sigil]

After the fight

[stoic path]

After the dream fight

[opaque sigil]

Huh, I can't send a picture of LK bowing ig

Apparently discord thinks it's explicit

There we go

[stoic path]

He baowed

[summer hearth]

Yes but possibly if taken figuratively. See if you define will with yearning/desire something that goes beyond reason and mind with the ability to reason. You can reasonably say the vessel may not have it.
Now then lets look at how the hollow knight failed. After this definition the hollow knight should have probably also succeeded. He didnt because while raising him the pale king showed him love desire etc. And therefore he couldn't be still. He yearned to go back to his father. The reason i even get to this theory is because of the dialog the white lady gives you.

[opaque sigil]

TK forms a familial attachment to Hornet, your point is moot. Just drop it already

And that isn't even necessarily the "idea instilled" that white lady was talking about, there's no evidence supporting that

[coarse leaf]

oh damn i didnt even notice

[blazing geyser]

.....huh. The one time a month I check ss disc, it's hollowness.

[shell yacht]

WL instills the same idea into TK
here my kid
go replace big bro
you can do it!!!

[opaque sigil]

Basically whatever concrete thing you try to point at as having been instilled in THK, TK has it too

Familial bonds? Check. Comprehension of their duty? Check. World Sense? Check.

[summer hearth]

Saying "It was tarnished by an idea instilled. But you. You are free of such blemishes. " Which mean that there is some part of the teachings of reasoning species that you cant posses.

[glossy gazelle]

Although she no longer worries if you have the void heart so.....

[summer hearth]

Does he?

[opaque sigil]

Yes. Winged Nosk demonstrates the existence of a bond

[tulip stratus]

Is The Knight even a he? I don't think the vessels have genders.

[opaque sigil]

TK is not a "he"

TK is an "it" or, if you prefer, a "them," although "it" is what's used in game

[wanton eagle]

Is hornet she?

[opaque sigil]

Yes

[tulip stratus]

Yes.

[opaque sigil]

Hornet is not a vessel, so the statement that vessels are genderless does not apply to her

[wanton eagle]

Fair enough.

[opaque sigil]

Also she's called "the Gendered Child" so I imagine she probably has gender

[summer hearth]

No desire goes beyond that. Instinct is the reaction you have towards certain stimuli. Desire does not need any influence it just is. Therefore its not a part of instinct. Since, to bepart of you have to confirm to the same restrictions as the parent object

[opaque sigil]

Instinct can manifest as desire. When you are hungry, you want to eat more food

And again you don't have to ping me with every single message

[blazing geyser]

Doesn't Midwife call Hornet a she anyways

[summer hearth]

Duty and and world sense doesnt matter, it cant be driven by emotion

[opaque sigil]

Ideas are not inherently emotional

Comprehension of one's duty can induce a desire to fulfill that duty

World sense can induce displeasure with the status of the world

[summer hearth]

Actually wing nosk demonstrates a memory not mecesarily a bond

[summer hearth]

It does not have to

[opaque sigil]

Winged Nosk uses the forms of those with whom the prey has a bond

In the deepest darkness, there are beasts who wear faces stolen from your memories and pluck at the strings in your heart. Know yourself, and stay strong.
It's also abundantly clear from the dream nail dialogues of the proximal corpses

Anyways, I'm going to ignore you now. You have unambiguously failed to make convincing points so this is pointless

[coarse leaf]

if instinct is a reaction to current stimuli, you could say desire is just a cumulative reaction to any stimuli previously encountered, anything you desire is based on your previous experiences, so its effectively just a more convoluted instinct

[opaque sigil]

Hornet's pretty open about it

[analog forge]

the fuck else would an idea instilled be?
if thats not the idea instilled, then why was it behind the past of pain?

[opaque sigil]

bc PK wanted it there

It's something PK wanted to preserve or hide

[analog forge]

and why would he want to hide it if it were not something shameful, something that was a mistake?

[opaque sigil]

We don't know that he wanted to hide it

[analog forge]

aka, an idea instilled which corrupted their hollow vessel

[opaque sigil]

Used to contain a powerful force, or to preserve something of great importance.
It was something "of great importance" to him

[analog forge]

thats the codex for seals, right?

[opaque sigil]

For Seals of Binding, the thing outside PoP

[analog forge]

there no point to adding an entire new area and adding one of the like 2 cutscenes to the game if its not gonna be lore significant

[opaque sigil]

There really just isn't evidence that the bond is the "idea instilled" WL talks about. It may be, but there's no evidence for it

[analog forge]

its just what makes sense

[opaque sigil]

Argument from incredulity

An inability to reconcile PoP's difficulty with the possibility that the thing at the end might not be of vital significance is hardly compelling evidence

[opaque sigil]

To be an optional challenge, that would be the point

[analog forge]

This isnt about the challenge.

[opaque sigil]

Either way

[analog forge]

Its about it adding to one of about 1 other flashback.

[opaque sigil]

That isn't compelling either

And the equivocation of the abyss cutscene and PoP scene is a tad absurd

[analog forge]

the flashbacks we get are the fucking abyss, and the pop scene

[shell yacht]

most people - pop proves idea instilled
me - pop proves PK knew THK was impure and hid the fact from himself, as this memory isnt in his own head

[opaque sigil]

Yeah, that works

[opaque sigil]

PoP isn't even TK's memory

[analog forge]

its still a flashback

[opaque sigil]

It's a totally different thing lmao

[analog forge]

even if its not our knights flashback

come on, you gonna argue the semantics of memory with me?

[opaque sigil]

And even if they were comparable, guess what. It wouldn't count for shit

[analog forge]

It just clicks together too well, that it would be the idea instilled

its like saying "these puzzle pieces that were literally made for each other actually go into different spaces, because they technically can fit in other spaces"

absolute lunacy

its like saying that the pale flowers dont murderize void, its just being petty

[shell yacht]

maybe, i see no reason why hed wait to hide the inevitable from himself

[ornate beacon]

boid.

[opaque sigil]

Abyss cutscenes importance doesn’t make PoP cutscene important

[harsh jewel]

does anyone know if ss is after or before hk?

[ornate beacon]

Oh no.

[shell yacht]

after but it wont follow an ending

[analog forge]

they dont, but the lack of cutscenes elsewhere kinda implaces artifical importantance onto it.
Not acknowledging that is, honestly, absurd.
But thats not the main arguement here, and nor should it be

[opaque sigil]

So hornet swinging into cot is of vital lore importance

[harsh jewel]

thanks

[analog forge]

Its the first time hornet meets you and doesnt fuckin murder you

Its the first time hornet speaks to you, its a big turning point in hornets attitudes toward you

[opaque sigil]

Anyways, you have presented no meaningful evidence that pop is the idea instilled, and idc how well you think it fits together if you can’t substantiate it

[analog forge]

first time she speaks to you without threats upon threats, i should say

It just makes too much sense.
We hear from white lady that an idea was instilled.
we see from the pale king he instills an idea.
It being the idea instilled ties up two seperate lose ends

and ties everything up in a neat little bow

[opaque sigil]

“It makes sense” is basically the definition of conjecture

[analog forge]

and has no counter arguement against it.

[pallid flare]

I am right because it is the truth

[analog forge]

Theres no lore that contradicts this view.
So if all the puzzle pieces just fit, and theres no lore arguement against it, why wouldnt it be?

[opaque sigil]

Burden of proof is on you if you want to claim it’s definitely the idea instilled

[analog forge]

If TC came out and said the idea instilled was actually a love of sandwhiches, then yeah, pop wasnt the idea instilled

[opaque sigil]

Argument from ignorance is not valid logic

[analog forge]

then tell me, oh great lore master, what was the idea instilled, and what importance was the pop cutscene?

Surely you must have a compelling counter theory, since you're so hellbent on sayin this one is wrong.

[smoky furnace]

Before Hk i think

[harsh jewel]

someone else said after so now i am confused

[opaque sigil]

I’m not. Just that it’s unclear

[analog forge]

its really not

the way the game paints and implies makes it pretty clear

[opaque sigil]

It’s not

[analog forge]

the problem with implications though is that it leaves little concrete proof.

[opaque sigil]

It isn’t conclusively indicated

[analog forge]

nothing is conclusively indicated

[opaque sigil]

It is a plausibility but not established

[harsh jewel]

ok

[smoky furnace]

Hornet said "I took too much time to come back" So SS is after Hk

[opaque sigil]

So you double down on the argument from ignorance. This is over. Your argument is not logically sound

[serene chasm]

Good morning/afternoon/evening/night everyone

[analog forge]

so much of the lore is left up in the air, or to interpretation, or to tablets.
Rejecting a theory because its not 100% airtight, literally onscreen with text explaining it is not a valid view point

not everything can be the abyss where its literally spelled out

[smoky furnace]

True

[tulip stratus]

Hello

[smoky furnace]

Hello

[languid linden]

If we say it's canon then it is canon smh my head

[pallid flare]

hi curly

[blazing geyser]

1. Not true, dialogue is the primary source of info for lore, much of it is very clear cut
2. Thats an absurdly frequent copout argument to try and justify "well the lore is up to intepretation with no evidence and this is just my interpretation"

[stark estuary]

Sorry, I'm lost. Could someone give me directions to #hk-lore ?

[languid linden]

Oh crap it's this topic nevermind

[nimble radish]

spin around until dizzy and then head straight for the north star, once you get there turn left

[stark estuary]

Thanks

[serene chasm]

Its just past the 9 circles of Hell

[stark estuary]

Guessing this is the 8th?

[glossy gazelle]

Yep

[analog forge]

Dialouge covers a bit of the lore, yes, but most of the actual events that happened are left to enviromental clues, and tablets.
Dialouge mostly covers world building, the state of the world as it were and the state of the world as it is.

[glossy gazelle]

This channel feels like a circle of hell sometimes

[analog forge]

dont worry, it is

its the 11th one

[stark estuary]

You know that Lore Tablets are evidence too, right? Sometimes they can act as stronger evidence than dialogue can.

[spring perch]

Any news on silksong?

[stark estuary]

Obligatory "Correlation does not necessarily equal causation".

[languid linden]

?sspsa

[thin zephyr]

Reminder: The latest news for both Hollow Knight and Silksong is in #hk-announcements.
Check the pinned messages for more information, including a FAQ.

[nimble radish]

yeah it came out

[analog forge]

causation literally equals caustation, what?

[languid linden]

Short answer: not since December 31st 2020

[analog forge]

Correleation doesnt equal causation, but i didnt correlate any causes so

like????

[stark estuary]

Obviously that was a typo, and you implied that the consensus was that PoP was the idea instilled even though it isn't.

And anyway this is an argument from ignorance

[analog forge]

I still dont see what correleation not equaling causation has to do with anything

the most you could say is im suggesting a correlation where none exists, however im not implying cause of anything.

[stark estuary]

The PoP cutscene isn't necessarily the cause of THK failing, even though the two things are correlated with one another.

[analog forge]

I didnt say it was the cause of thk falling, i said it was an idea instilled.
Im correlating the two.
the fact that the idea instilled is what caused thks fall is secondary to that.

[stark estuary]

It may not have even been the "idea instilled" though.

[analog forge]

well thats the entire crux of this entire pointlessness, isnt it?

[stark estuary]

Can you paraphrase that?

[tulip stratus]

What?

[analog forge]

well thats the meat and potatoes of this sugerslosh, aint it?

that more clear?

[runic adder]

Neither of those were too clear

[stark estuary]

Well yeah, you make an argument from ignorance, bring up an irrelevant example, and double down on it.

[analog forge]

I dont see how any of the examples i made were irrelevent

[stark estuary]

Just because something is left open to interpretation does not mean that they are equal in strength or that certain interpretations cannot be rejected. We discuss, and we reach a general consensus.

[analog forge]

also you asked me to paraphrase, when what you really wanted was for me to rephrase.

[potent plover]

Hello

Actually goodbye

[analog forge]

turn 360 degrees and walk away

old joke

[rapid topaz]

Hello

[fallow rock]

hi

well goodbye

[serene chasm]

Hola

[fallow rock]

🍌

POTASSIUM

[summer kindle]

stop everything

[serene chasm]

cant stop wont stop

[summer kindle]

but

[fallow rock]

we demand POTASSIUM

[shell cedar]

is there any sort of consensus on a potential release date? I had something about leaks but i wasnt paying attention for the last few months

[pallid flare]

soon

[coarse leaf]

tomorrow

[fallow rock]

if you are graig you know what happens in the game

[shell cedar]

i am not

[fallow rock]

but i would say next week

[coarse leaf]

are you serious 😂

[fallow rock]

yes

[coarse leaf]

🤔

[opaque sigil]

Probably not more than another couple years

[cosmic widget]

There’s probably gonna be like a 5 hour boss rush XD

[opaque sigil]

If there is a full boss rush it'll probably be longer

[cosmic widget]

All bindings including radiant mode

[opaque sigil]

Unless the standard enemy:boss ratio has increased pretty significantly

[sweet lotus]

The leaked release date looks pretty real. February 1st it is.

[opaque sigil]

No

[cosmic widget]

Release date is before the heat death of the universe

[coarse leaf]

idk about the leak validity, but it still might release in feb

[sweet lotus]

We'll see about that in time. :)

[cunning geode]

jape

[cosmic widget]

Website is probably gonna crash again in February lol

[fallow rock]

hey guys how do you pronuced leif or no

[serene chasm]

Leaf

[pallid flare]

whats a leif

[serene chasm]

Cool ice wizard Moth

[summer kindle]

personally i pronounce leif "ebony dark'ness dementia raven way"

[cosmic widget]

The leif is probably colored black

[serene chasm]

what is this "conversation" even about?

[cosmic widget]

It's clearly about Silksong ;)

[pallid flare]

I have no clue

[fallow rock]

welcome to SS-DISCUSSION

[cosmic widget]

More like #offtopic-2

[serene chasm]

I want to get off #sk-discussion wild ride

[pallid flare]

you can not

it is far too late

[summer kindle]

hey am i allowed to dm you

[fallow rock]

why

also mods can make threads

[summer kindle]

to show a dumb drawing based on this

[fallow rock]

yes

[summer kindle]

ok

[fallow rock]

where is it

[summer kindle]

you got it

[fallow rock]

yea

[fallow rock]

guys i just made a new meme

[burnt topaz]

you gonna put it here or #hk-meme

[serene chasm]

You cant make a new meme

[fallow rock]

no check #art-discussion

its called elfsong

[tribal merlin]

nah, I'm really only interested in zwölfsong

[pallid flare]

drölf

[tribal merlin]

now I really hope Hornet yells "DRÖLF"

Germans make joke - chat dies
classic

[pallid flare]

and they say germans have no sense of humour

[burnt topaz]

you guys have your own sense of humour

[fallow rock]

we have no mistakes the jokes are cringe

[pallid flare]

what

[dusty nimbus]

I have no idea what's happening

[stiff bay]

“:(“

[analog lily]

wait what's happening now?

[serene chasm]

No idea

[burnt topaz]

not much

do you wanna make something happen?

[analog lily]

well depends what something is

[pallid flare]

we're all waiting for something to happen

[burnt topaz]

thats up for you to decide

[analog lily]

well i'm just gonna do nothing

[tribal merlin]

what if it's SilkSomething

[analog lily]

Somethingsong?

[burnt topaz]

now youre talking

[serene chasm]

• pokes #hk-announcements with a stick*

[pallid flare]

c'mon do something

[analog lily]

what is something?

[serene chasm]

turn white

[burnt topaz]

what

[analog lily]

[serene chasm]

It grey. Should be white

[burnt topaz]

oh yeah

[analog lily]

oh yeah true though we can't type there though

[pallid flare]

curly is implying a desire for silksong news

[languid linden]

Wait you can't?

[analog lily]

you can?

[languid linden]

Uh no definitely not

[serene chasm]

Or a random HK update

[burnt topaz]

WOW LOOK GUYS

[analog lily]

another HK update with more bugs?
(as in another patch but has more glitches)

[serene chasm]

TC about to anger speedrunners

[languid linden]

Wouldn't it be funny if they got rid of all the skips

[opaque sigil]

smh low effort

[languid linden]

Speedruns would suddenly be an hour longer

[opaque sigil]

At least make it look like there was server-wide ping, like there would be for SS news

[burnt topaz]

I like to think the bad quality adds to the of it

[pallid flare]

imagine

[analog lily]

What about if we just make our own SilkSong news

[burnt topaz]

but yeah, an actual ping is pretty convincing

[analog lily]

when was the last everyone ping though?

[opaque sigil]

Edge

[languid linden]

#server-announcements message

[pallid flare]

unbelievable that was added 8 months ago

[languid linden]

Edge was the second last everyone ping

[analog lily]

and the last ping before that was the TC holiday sign off

[trim estuary]

Not the riddles?

[analog lily]

riddles weren't everyone pings

[chilly nexus]

this wasn't even intended to be a troll post but it was the first thing i saw when i opened chat and grrr

[trim estuary]

Ok but they didn’t ping everyone with the findings?

[analog lily]

yeah, becuase some people didn't want spoilers ig

[languid linden]

No the last ping before that was #server-announcements message

And the one after that was #server-announcements message

[analog lily]

oh yeah true, but i was only counting #hk-announcements

[languid linden]

and also #server-announcements message

I'm confused about what I'm linking now

[rapid topaz]

Wait is this real ? I mean, is this a recent thing

I couldn't believe they would patch 1221 lmao

[serene chasm]

It is

https://steamdb.info/app/367520/history/

[glossy gazelle]

What would anger speedrunners?

[pallid flare]

wait did they patch an older version for some reason??

[glossy gazelle]

I dunno

[serene chasm]

we dont know

[chilly nexus]

imagine if they're patching SS news/hints/release dates into HK and no one's finding them

like everyday they patch something different into hornet's room in hk or smthn

objectively yes

[serene chasm]

They are patching 1221 to show the SS release date if someone gets a sub 30 time

[chilly nexus]

1221 is the release date already december of 2021

TGA announcement hyppppppppe

[opaque sigil]

Only then will the community truly be done with HK

[hazy lark]

I'm pretty sure they're going to give us an update on the thousandth day since the announcement

[languid linden]

That's in...21 days I think?

[hazy lark]

And it's not far

[opaque sigil]

Why would they do that

[hazy lark]

Cool number?

[chilly nexus]

tbh i wonder how many games made it over 1000 days between reveal and release announce

[opaque sigil]

1000 days is less than three years, probably a good number

[pallid flare]

10th of november

[naive flax]

imagine waking up and seeing 10 pings from #hk-announcements

[tribal merlin]

imagine waking up and seeing Graig's face

[tawdry valley]

5/6/22 - 5/13/22 - 5/20/22 - 5/27/22
6/3/22 - 6/10/22 - 6/17/22 - 6/24/22

One of these dates may or may not be a release date.

[opaque sigil]

Time to ping you on each of those dates.

Except I'm going to forget

[tribal merlin]

well since Leth hasn't officially deconfirmed any of those they all must be the release date

[opaque sigil]

SS release is staggered over a 2 month period

[gray lance]

Release date is always tomorrow

[tawdry valley]

I am eventually going to list every Friday of the year of 2022.

[tawdry valley]

This is my ploy for clairvoyance

[opaque sigil]

And what if it releases in 2023

[opaque sigil]

[tawdry valley]

I will have time during october 2022 to repeat

Edge magazine

[obsidian juniper]

What Is 1221?

[tawdry valley]

2/2/2222 is a cool number; I hope team cherry will release it then.

[opaque sigil]

Feb 1 was the date but they decided to delay it for 100 years and a day for the lulz

[hazy lark]

https://tenor.com/view/kronk-point-debate-argument-angel-gif-17274775

[coarse leaf]

21 of December omfg

[shell yacht]

no

[coarse leaf]

That must mean something 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

1221

[shell yacht]

1221 was the old current patch

[opaque sigil]

So ig it does mean something, just not anything to do with SS

[coarse leaf]

that would make a lot of sense

[shell yacht]

[analog lily]

21 months?
I think i understood that wrong

[shell yacht]

i hate that i have an immediate answer

because that answer is wrong

but it would feed you loonies

[opaque sigil]

Is it September of the following year

[coarse leaf]

feed us feed us

also can someone explain why they're patching things now?

[opaque sigil]

Who cares why

They've been doing it all year it's not like it means SS soon

[pallid flare]

but why on a version that no one uses

[opaque sigil]

People tried that argument 8 months ago and look how that went

dur hur TC's working on HK so they must have finished SS

[shell yacht]

graigs actually locked in a basemrnt fixing HK bc he wont stop shitposting here

[tawdry valley]

#hk-discussion message

[pallid flare]

howd you find that message