speedrunning

[agile dagger]

I got under 5 hours but idk how to set up timer

[hearty adder]

Check the pins for info on livesplit

[agile dagger]

Thanks

[dapper cove]

I need to practice hornet 2 some more

I got close to finishing all skills

Hornet 2 just knocked me senseless and then my hands got more shaky than usual so I kept fumbling through inputs

[stable quarry]

Hornet 2 is hard with only 5 masks

[dapper cove]

It’s hard in general

I think I got close a couple times

I play very defensive with hornet 2

Only moving when necessary

[stable quarry]

I had some suksess just dashing in hitting and then dashing out

[dapper cove]

And i have the move set memorised but I have trouble identifying some of the jumping attacks

[stable quarry]

Yeah they are really quick

[dapper cove]

What I’ve found to be helpful is there are two attacks where you can safely get a heal off

Third that is iffy

When she throws her nail and does the web tornado you can almost always get a heal off

When she sets up the spikes you might be able to

Depends on your distance from her and where the spikes go

[stable quarry]

Yeah if your quick nail trow is safe to heal once in

[dapper cove]

I’ve also found if you intentionally get rid of all the spikes shell almost always put more up which gives you like two or three free hits

[stable quarry]

Tornado, is not as safe bevouse of rng

[dapper cove]

Or if I need a break to heal possibly I’ll try to get ride of all the spikes

[stable quarry]

I just try to jump so I can fire ball her and some spikes

[dapper cove]

I try to stay grounded as much as possible

[stable quarry]

Doing pogo on the spikes is also a nice way to get rid of them while retreating

[dapper cove]

Yeah I do that too

If convenient o my

[stable quarry]

I keep forgetting I have wings

[dapper cove]

Otherwise I just walk away and nail up

[grand token]

Hi y'all, new here, i'm starting to learn any% nmg but having issues with save n quit: every time i try doing so (1.2.2.1) i seem to get stuck into the bench, and i cannot get off of it pressing any button, any solution to that?

[ionic sparrow]

there’s a guide on src about deleting your registry, look at that and it should fix it

Sometimes when you downpatch for the 1st time you need to do that

[dapper cove]

^^

I was lucky to where that didn’t happen but I accidentally deleted some files so now my down patch doesn’t work and I’ve tried reinstalling it twice with no luck yet

[grand token]

Thanks a lot, i'll try and see if it works

[stable quarry]

I had some trubbels having more than one patch. The oldest downpatch could not find the dll file

[dapper cove]

I even deleted my entire hk registry

Which is why I ended up streaming cp instead of 1221 yesterday lmao

I’ll be back in a bit I’m going to take a piano break :)

I consider it a hand warmup for speedruns lmaoooo

[grand token]

Thought about using cp but i think i'll be more confortable with 1221 with the many resources i found for a beginner (one for all fireborn's guide)

Still for now my goal is getting some practice with skips and fights, then maybe go for sub 1h for starters

[hallow orchid]

1221 is easier to pick up from the gameplay pov, especially with the resources that exist. The CP route is largely similar though until we prove spore shroom is faster so fires guide still mostly works

[ionic sparrow]

spore shroom meta

[hallow orchid]

Jamie has a guide as well for cp any%, not sure if it's still in powerpoint form

[dapper cove]

Spore shroom saved me my first ever time doing wk

[ionic cargo]

i desparately want a spore shroom route

[dapper cove]

Not in speedruns just in general

[hallow orchid]

Spore shroom route is viable on cp tbh

Panta got a 37:0x yesterday with it I believe

[ionic sparrow]

It’s bugged vs thk and does way too much damage to them lol

Kinda funny

[hallow orchid]

Yeah it can do like >100 damage per cast to thk lol

[ionic cargo]

thats so cool

[grand token]

What's currently WR for cp? 37.0x seems really good time

[ionic sparrow]

Is it only bugged on 1432 or on all post lifeblood patches

[hallow orchid]

Low 36 is wr on cp

Not sure pest

It's fixed in 1.5 though

[ionic sparrow]

sad

[ionic cargo]

f

[spare inlet]

Rip

[dapper cove]

I’m getting a bad feeling for my runs today considering how my piano warmup is going lmao

Very very sloppy

[thorn jasper]

I believe in you

just make a mental note: achording to slaurent, this won't be too much treble

[grizzled maple]

AW YEAH GIMME THA BASS

[molten aurora]

My mouse finally died and it's 4am so I can't go buy a new one

[vocal dove]

sleep is a time machine to breakfast more runs

[thorn jasper]

~~double tilde to strikethrough if that's what you were going for~~

[vocal dove]

thanks lol

[molten aurora]

I could sleep, orrrr I could watch all the top AS runs for the next 5 hours

[dapper cove]

Thank you slaurent <3

I’ll just take extra time to play piano and warm up

Partially bc I love piano and I want to get better at howls moving castle lmao

Hands down the hardest piece I’m trying to learn

I could sit in vc somewhere if anyone would like to listen to my warmups lmao

The occasional cursing and sloppy handwork

[thorn jasper]

the enthusiasm is great, but let's try to keep the channel on topic

[grand token]

I was wondering if a first "goal" of sub 1h in any%nmg was setting the bar a lil too high for a beginner which could cause more frustration than benefit

Sry of i misspell, eng is not my first language and autocorrector is also pretty bad

[thorn jasper]

I would start setting time goals after you complete a first full run

[dapper cove]

I’ll be in general if anyone wants to listen but you are by no means obligated it’s just if you want to listen to me playing piano <3

My first goal is just to complete a run

As a baseline

And then look at improving splits individually rather than the time as a whole

Because by improving splits you’ll improve your overall time

[stiff delta]

honestly at the beginning i wouldn’t worry about the actual time, i would just worry about getting better

Not worry actually thats not the right word

Focus on getting better

the time means nothing rn, you can think about that later

Gamer rage

[grand token]

Rn i was practicing the splits up to Mothwing Cloak (which is where i have the save n quit issue) and i'm getting nice things like single spike kill a lot and seldom double, and fireball skips like half the time, but my greenpath is reeeeally bad overall

Btw thanks a lot for the advice ti all of you

[hearty adder]

that's alright, practice and doing full runs will slowly make you improve

[dapper cove]

Slow and steady wins the race :)

[grand token]

Yeah that's a slow process, i think i stood like 2h on the aspid Arena trying to learn the spike trick before getting my first double kill out of pure luck

[hallow orchid]

don't feel like you have to know every trick in the run before you do a run. Most of your time early on will be struggling with Watcher knights, so a lot of the run up to that point will be relatively less important

if you enjoy grinding out the practice feel free to do so but remember that late game is harder than early

[grand token]

I guessed so, between WK, uumuu n deepnest, no joke

But i really like trying tricks n skips, they feel real swag

[bright valley]

So I'm learning to do speedrunning and I'm having trouble doing the fireball thing so I can get to hornet 1, any advice

[atomic ether]

Fireborn has a great video on fireballs skips you should check it out

[grizzled maple]

If you really like tricks you could always just mess with rando which can double as movement practice for speedruns but you get to do cool skips

[stiff delta]

Swag is cool thats a fair point

[bright valley]

ooh, thank u

[dapper cove]

Lmao I was prepping for speedruns and missed my therapy appointment bc I thought it was at 3 rip

OH WAIT I DO HAVE A MEETING AT 3 LMAO WOOPS I HAD TWO MEETINGS TODAY

[stiff delta]

Start learning ismas route ez pz

[dapper cove]

Guess speedruning is going to wait lmao

[hearty adder]

hey, remember to keep the chat on-topic

[dapper cove]

Okok sorry

[hearty adder]

Are you using quick cast?

[grand token]

I really like watching some random races, but also i don't think is my cup of tea, but of you have any suggestion of where i could find more to watch i'll really appreciate that

[grizzled maple]

There's not really anything going on right now, just the occassional hk runner doing rando

Most people are doing all skills right now because of the tourney

[vague jolt]

If you want to watch rando races there's a lot of them from the last tourney here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoWICJMgPKUoBuRW7CmxsvRGg5VBzugH

[hallow orchid]

there's a handful of people who stream casual randos still but it's a lot fewer than during the rando tourney. Not many organized races these days

[hearty adder]

after this huge influx of runners, it'd be cool if the rando scene could be revived a bit

[hallow orchid]

I think the last organized one was the DAB at the HK 4 year anniversary marathon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCcuVhFCMnM

[grizzled maple]

Probably will. In the few years I've been here I've noticed we alternate yearly tourneys

Last year was rando. this year is all skills, maybe next year we'll do rando again

[grand token]

Thx a lot

[hallow orchid]

yeah rando will probably revive a bit once rando runners have had a while to cool down from the tourney burnout

but yeah the real trick is to bully Quacksilver into restreaming more rando on HKC

[vocal dove]

i did my first rando last week and it took 7 hours

would love to get into it more though

[stiff delta]

People who can do a rando in a day are wild to me

[hearty adder]

My first rando was 9 hours and my second one was 4:30hs

once i have the time to i'd love to get into it for real

[vocal dove]

seems like the hardest part is knowing where all the checks are

[stiff delta]

I think my first (and only) rando was over the course of like 5-6 streams which were each like an hour and a half, so at least a while

[tardy sable]

when i do rando on my own I just turn off rancid eggs because I really do not know all the rancid egg locations

idk if anyone else does that lol

[hallow orchid]

Getting a bit off topic here, but please use RandoMapMod if you're new

It will show on your map the locations of all the checks, and even tell you which ones are in "logic" (rando expects you to be able to get them)

[stiff delta]

too ez to be a boss

[thorn jasper]

Zote Rescued Vengefly King (Mini Boss)

[stiff delta]

Slaurent your pfp reminds me of the moon in majoras mask (a bit offtopic but i just thought of it)

Idk

[molten aurora]

When you start a run get to the baldur and realize your quick cast and focus have unbound themselves

[stiff delta]

i just thought of it

do you have them bound to mouse keys?

[molten aurora]

Nope.

[thorn jasper]

if you rebound them from the menu in game, do it instead from the main menu?

[molten aurora]

I haven't changed my binds since I first downpatched.

[thorn jasper]

that's correct. it's useful for category extensions

[molten aurora]

Game just hates me, that was a really nice vs split

[hearty adder]

probably better to go to one of the glitched cat channels to ask, since most runners are NMG

[grizzled maple]

or dm kry or insomnia directly

i know for a FACT that allie would do anything to get more glitched runners

and i think insomnia has a tutorial on it

[vague jolt]

Is there a good way of avoiding this enemy? (current patch) I can never seem to go through this room without hitting it, regardless of whether I need shop key or not.

[grizzled maple]

Yeah, you're probably just a little too slow

I would watch some runs and see how others do the movement

[digital jewel]

you can look at the right side pogo strat

it reaches that path a lot faster than going around the left so that guy should never be blocking you

[low bramble]

i have a good strat ill send in a bit

[hallow orchid]

If you're going for shop key, you can land in the opening and then jump up hugging the left wall as much as possible

But yeah if you're getting hit without going for shop key you're missing the cycle

[low bramble]

this is the route i take for shop key

[vague jolt]

Oh I think the secret is that I need to be pogoing the lantern?

[low bramble]

yea the pogo on that lantern lets you get an earlier cycle

and the dash in to the bottom of the wall right under the enemy

[grizzled maple]

aerto's route is the one most people use. the right side thing xero was talking about is relatively new

might be able to see it in some all skills runs

[hallow orchid]

yeah pogo the lantern not the enemy

and yeah the right side lantern pogo is new but faster

[vague jolt]

Does the right side lantern pogo damage tank the lower shardmite?

[hallow orchid]

not necessarily, no

if you do a """dash cancel""" you can beat the enemy

[twin swallow]

you can still do damageless on the left wall as long as you do a small walljump

[hallow orchid]

whose name is apparently shardmite? wtf?

[vague jolt]

What exactly is this?

IK people have been talking about it but I kinda missed the conversations lmao

[hallow orchid]

you dash into the wall and wall jump before the dash completes

also here's the cycle without using the right wall: https://clips.twitch.tv/GeniusAthleticHamSmoocherZ-hbzOlRrTvK78t_hW

[vague jolt]

Cpeaks is hard if you're trying to go fast huh

[twin swallow]

you don't need to stop walljumping btw, it just makes it easier

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/905298550?t=0h26m27s here's that room from my src pb

also I believe you can beat the upper laserbug cycle at the end of that room without fireballing but the cycle is v tight

[hallow orchid]

maybe with the lamp pogo in the beginning

[vague jolt]

Wait, you didn't fireball in that JB?

[hallow orchid]

I doubt you can beat that with the left side climb

[twin swallow]

I never do lamp pogo but have done it damageless one time

[hallow orchid]

interesting

[short spire]

dashjump

[low bramble]

I've never seen that fireball before, thats

[twin swallow]

I don't have a clip of it, but https://youtu.be/MAqkTEyaiiA?t=1521 this is me when v slow in that room and I'm pretty sure I only just missed it

[vague jolt]

Oh I see

[hallow orchid]

is that dependent on laser rng?

[twin swallow]

maybe / probably

[hallow orchid]

in any case with the lamp pogo it should be beatable

[twin swallow]

yeah I did that when I ran any% but honestly forgot it was a thing until y'all mentioned it just now

[hallow orchid]

in any% you can beat the cycle for sure

unless you mean the lamp pogo haha

[twin swallow]

yeah lamp pogo

in any% you don't need shopkey

[hallow orchid]

yeah

lamp pogo I think saves like .5 or something?

just run a quick 112% and you should be good

(I don't know if there's an easy way to unlock godseeker mode)

if you have a 112 file you should have all modes unlocked

[thorn jasper]

Grab a file from src and beat thk on it or something

[hallow orchid]

ah yeah. Maybe need to beat p3 too

[thorn jasper]

There might be registry values you can flip

[hallow orchid]

but finishing the game at all will unlock steel soul. beating p3 is the trigger for godseeker. Probably is a registry value but idk

[grizzled maple]

i can give you a file but you do have to beat p3 to unlock it

also if you unlock godseeker on a godseeker file you softlock lmao

[hallow orchid]

that should work yeah

also lol I remember that em

[grizzled maple]

learned that after that one time i deleted my registry then did p5 runs the next day

[hallow orchid]

debug yourself 2k damage and invincibility if you want lol

[hearty adder]

How so? What happens exactly?

[true palm]

game crashes, it cant handle the paradox

[dapper cove]

i need to re-set up debug as i had to delete my entire hk registry bc i bugged the files on accident by deleting other files

i didn't intentionally delete the files it was a whole mess that i've made sure will never happen again

[true palm]

deleting registry shouldnt do anything to debug, did you delete the save folder?

[dapper cove]

no i deleted everything

every last hollow knight data folder

[true palm]

OH so you deleted the game

[dapper cove]

and reinstalled from steam

yes

[digital jewel]

why

[dapper cove]

i uninstalled it and deleted every last thing

i bugged my game

by accidentally deleting other files

[digital jewel]

you can recover files from the recycle bin you know

[dapper cove]

but i've put measures into place so that that doesn't happen ever again

nono lemme explain

my parents made me set up a google sync thing

when i got my computer

bc i can't connect my laptop and pc bc of the kind of laptop i have

so the files immediately filled up the allotted storage in google drive

so i deleted the files that were on google drive

not realising it also deleted it from my pc

so i perma deleted them

[true palm]

welp in that case would you mind checking this file location

C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\content\app_367520\depot_367521

[dapper cove]

then when i went to run the game it was just completely broke

yeah i did

[true palm]

to see if theres anything there

[dapper cove]

no dice

now there's stuff there bc i've begun work on fixing it

completely redoing everything

[true palm]

well if everythings been completely wiped, 'fraid you're gonna have to downpatch again

[dapper cove]

i know

that's why i was running cp on stream last night

couldn't get downpatch to work

i could get to the title screen

but i got a black screen after i got through the first cutscene with the elegy of hallownest

[true palm]

you might need to clear your registry, do you have any plans on running steel soul, or using the godmaster mode, in the near future?

if the answer is no then hit Windows + R for me and a command prompt should pop up

type "regedit" into there and hit enter

something similar to File Explorer will pop up, and it will say Registry Editor

Computer\HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Team Cherry\Hollow Knight

go to that location

and delete the files

a more detailed guide can be found in the downpatching guide on speedrun.com, in the section about clearing the registry

[slim tree]

Just recently watched Fire's video on the one really hard speedrun route where you get Isma's Tear to get wing's to skip lantern, has it been proven that it's slower yet? If you could skip almost all the relic's and geo grinding, it feels like it would be faster, plus being able to using wing's for movement later in the game. Is there a TAS or smthin that tests this?

[grizzled maple]

First of all, the game isn't TASable in it's current state. We have two existing TASes and they're both controllable segments (PoP and PoH)

[dapper cove]

i did delete those files

didn't help

[grizzled maple]

Second of all, that skip is extremely difficult. It's never been used in a working run, and very few people have even done it as a whole segment.

[slim tree]

But say if someone theoretically got it first try in a run, would it be faster?

[grizzled maple]

Probably not. I'm sure fire covers this in his video. I haven't seen it but I doubt he would leave it out that this was an idea by Mag extremely early on in the game's history

[vague jolt]

OT but do you know where I can see the PoP TAS? I've seen the PoH one, that was pretty

[hearty adder]

Yeah, he does mention it's slower

[dusk portal]

Someone else than Ins0mnia did it?

[grizzled maple]

Maybe this is it??
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1St4y1e7Eb/?spm_id_from=333.788.videocard.3

[true palm]

dont we have the kings pass TAS as well?

[hearty adder]

Yeah, there was a King's Pass TAS pretty recently

[slim tree]

Wait why can't we tas the game?

[short spire]

it's techically possible but just really janky and complicated because unity is bad

[true palm]

1. hollow knight is fps and load dependent so other applications literally change how the game runs

2. we have no way to control rng

[grizzled maple]

A true TAS requires that the game be vanilla, single segment, and start from a fresh file. Using an external application to control RNG and FPS is possible, but would invalidate a TAS

That's the main issue

[slim tree]

Yikes

[true palm]

even with controlling fps and rng, some load dependent cycles might vary slightly

[limber marsh]

Can someone please tell me, why can't I submit a run where I don't use glitches into the category where glitches are allowed, this makes zero sense

[true palm]

iirc

[grizzled maple]

Because the category is for glitched runs...

[slim tree]

Also, what skip's are downpatch only? I only have the game on switch and wanna start doing some speedrunning

[true palm]

because runs are sorted by the most accurate category, ie i cant submit low% runs to any%

[grizzled maple]

If your run is NMG, then it's NMG. You can't just put it anywhere

[limber marsh]

emray by that logic every runner of that category should do every glitch that is possible and if you miss any glitches then your run is invalid

[grizzled maple]

You're clearly missing the point of defining rulesets

NMG is the standard. It gets moved down by which glitches can be used

If you do floats, it's NMMS. If you do MMS, it's AG

[true palm]

check out the current patch powerpoint, and all the other resources on SRC, emray in particular has developed a lot of resources for console and current patch

[limber marsh]

The ruleset clearly says i CAN use glitches not I SHOULD use them

[short spire]

#hk-meme is that way buddy

[grizzled maple]

Yeah idk what to tell you if my last message didn't clear

[slim tree]

Where?

[true palm]

Speedrun.com

[spice cradle]

I believe that one is fake because it uses QoL cycles iirc
This is the real one
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV155411E7c9/?spm_id_from=333.788.videocard.2

[true palm]

https://www.speedrun.com/hollowknight/guides

[grizzled maple]

oh cool. i just searched pop tas in the server tbh

that one i linked was posted by fire

figured it was trustworthy

[slim tree]

Is livesplit avaliable for console?

[true palm]

console is timed rta, meaning your load times are included

[slim tree]

K

[verbal stag]

you can use livesplit but the autosplitter/load remover isnt available

[true palm]

livesplit can be used on your computer to help you keep track for personal uses but is not required

[limber marsh]

that would make sense if it was stated in the rules, because no other game has this

Guess I'll have to redo the run using one glitch....

[true palm]

its literally for verfier clarity

why do you need your run in nmms/ all glitches

[thorn jasper]

what's the point of this? why not submit to the board that makes the most sense?

[grizzled maple]

If you do floats or other major glitches, it's NMMS. If you do MMS, it's AG, if you do no major glitches, it is NMG

that's how simple it is

[short spire]

it's assumed to be common damn sense that runs should be submitted to the most restrictive category that it follows the rules of lol

[hallow orchid]

if you want to submit an nmg run submit it to the nmg category, it isn't that complicated

[steady lynx]

You trying to get 112% AG WR or what?

[dapper cove]

Unity is pretty easy to use for development, but the quality isn't the most amazing thing

[grizzled maple]

It's funny because if they try i'll just go do a 112 run with jonis fury and ruin their night lol

[limber marsh]

I get that, I didn't want to seem negative, I just wish it was stated in the rules not to cause any confusion

[short spire]

the only confusion will be caused to people explicitly looking to become confused and im ok with that

[true palm]

um, because most people want to be compared to runs most similar to theirs since its a competitive hobby

[hallow orchid]

can you even do mms in 112%?

[grizzled maple]

no

[limber marsh]

Well I am at a disadvantage not using glitches so I don't understand your sarcasm

[grizzled maple]

at least not the godhome file version

youre locked out of quests like grimm

[thorn jasper]

If your motivating factor was "I want this free WR in this all glitches board", then it's not a good motivating factor imo

[hallow orchid]

so will 112 AG exist as a permanently empty category?

[grizzled maple]

might be best to yeet it honestly...

[true palm]

Theres literally a SEPARATE board for not using glitches which your run would go to

[short spire]

umm you do realise that nmg exists specifically so you can not use glitches and also not be at a disadvantage right lmao

[thorn jasper]

if you aren't using glitches then submit to no major glitches

[rugged crow]

you cant go back to godhome in a mms file

[leaden python]

maybe there is a way to make mms useful for 112, but we just haven't found yet

[grizzled maple]

our system works the opposite way that you think it does

again, nmg is the default, as glitches are added it moves down the line

[steady lynx]

112% AG has potential of saving a few minutes over normal 112% in main game and then can use Fury for pantheons

[grizzled maple]

if you dont do major glitches it IS nmg

[hallow orchid]

but isn't that 112% NMMS gusten?

not 112% AG?

[grizzled maple]

Yeah gusten that would be NMMS

112 AG is probably useless

[hallow orchid]

oh interesting on src there's actually only NMG and AG, no NMMS for 112

that's probably best

[leaden python]

that would be NMMS without menu storage, yeah

[true palm]

if theres no menu storage for the run, why make the distinction

[grizzled maple]

that probably needs updating from when it was NLDG and jonis fury was in AG rules

[steady lynx]

Maybe we should change that to 112 NMMS on src?

[hallow orchid]

I mean so far no one has done a run so it's not a pressing issue

[formal bough]

You should always submit a run to the most restrictive category that it falls into right?

[hallow orchid]

I just assumed it was like other cats and had NMG/NMMS/AG sub-categories

[steady lynx]

For now it's mostly you can use any glitch

[digital jewel]

you can't get 112% with cp nmms

sadly

[dapper cove]

sorry to but in in the middle of this convo but do y'all have any tips for hornet 2 in all skills cp bc I'm kinda struggling

[grizzled maple]

Here's another example, not about rulesets but categories.

If you did an all skills run, but did TE, it would probably be classified as a TE run

[digital jewel]

you're blocked out of getting troupe master grimms %

[dapper cove]

I'm trying to stay on the ground as much as possible to allow for better movement and i'm not trying to heal unless hornet is doing one of two attacks

[hallow orchid]

check out Pisces' guide on youtube would be my recommendation

[vague jolt]

Is hornet 2 different between 1221 and CP?

(Like how hornet 1 is different because stagger count)

[grizzled maple]

Yes cp she has one more hit to stagger on each fight

[hallow orchid]

I think it's just 1 extra hit to stagger

[leaden python]

it's different a bit, but the general flow is the same

[hallow orchid]

doesn't change the strats for the fight really

[grizzled maple]

5>6 on h1 and 6>7 on h2

[short spire]

do you think it could be used to do stuff with non godseeker files tho

[leaden python]

and I feel like CP doubles are easier to do

[short spire]

like how ag any% uses it

[dapper cove]

i normally don't go for those shots at all bc i save my soul for heals bc i take damage a lot and the fight takes a while

[steady lynx]

I've heard 1432 has some useful glitches like an extremely broken elevator storage but most of us would still probably be slower into Godhome than Monstah's NMG WR

[dapper cove]

i'm learning my own little tricks here and there as i keep trying

[vague jolt]

It seemed from fireb0rn's guide that the strat he used for hornet 1 very much made use of the smaller stagger count, I guess it's not the same for h2?

[dapper cove]

like how if you get ride of all the spikes she'll inevitably make more and you can use that to get easy hits off

[grizzled maple]

if i didn't absolutely hate hk glitches i probably wouldve already done a run

i tried once before and just gave up

[verbal stag]

dont save your soul for heals, spells are your main damage output

[dapper cove]

i save for heals bc i take damage a lot

[true palm]

hornet 2 moves a lot faster to the point where its harder to keep consistency

[steady lynx]

I'm a lowly console runner so Idk a lot of glitches

[harsh mason]

dont take damage then

[dapper cove]

i'm not the best at avoiding attacks bc i have not the greatest motor skills

[steady lynx]

I know invuln since I used that to set up a practice file

[dapper cove]

easier said than done katie lmao

[true palm]

if you use soul to heal, then you wont kill her because it takes longer

[dapper cove]

i just sometimes get stuck in an awkward pattern

[digital jewel]

none of that stuff should work on cp ax. maybe someone could figure something out. the problem is that mms gets cleared when you actually load into a save file so there's not much you can do with it

[true palm]

one double on hornet with shade soul and shamans does 80 damage

one nail swing does 5

[short spire]

oh okay i see

[dapper cove]

but if i don't heal, and i take damage a lot, then it's not worth trying to save if i never get to use it

[true palm]

doing the fight without spells is going to take at least 3-4 minutes

[dapper cove]

my mentality is if the opportunity arises to use it and i have soul to spare and i'm not able to heal during the attack sequence, then i'll use it

[true palm]

at which point your inevitably just going to get hit more

[steady lynx]

spelless TE when?

[stark birch]

gusten I have so many other categories to worry about don't do this

[limpid phoenix]

how should i advertise my idea?

[dapper cove]

cynicism you were there on my stream you know i lowkey am not great bc i'm still learning

[harsh mason]

how many times are you healing

[vague jolt]

Actually as a nail upgrade enthusiast spelless te sounds

[dapper cove]

i know, for now, what works best for me

[harsh mason]

she only has like 7 spells of hp

[steady lynx]

But I have so many other fun category ideas Quack

[true palm]

ye i get it, would recommend downloading debug mod and grinding the fight out

[dapper cove]

i'll adapt as i go but for now i need to stick to what works for me

[stark birch]

nail upgrades no-eyes or markoth?

[dapper cove]

i'm going to reinstall it to grind it out

[vague jolt]

If you can't get spells then nail upgrades only make Markoth easier

[dapper cove]

i'll do what i did with wk and slowly amp up the difficulty until i'm at where i would be at all skills

[steady lynx]

How about... Shitpost%, you have to see every Elderbug dialogue as fast as possible

[dapper cove]

i only start to care about healing once i've taken 2 masks of damage

[limber marsh]

using menu drops is NMMS or not?

[dapper cove]

bc i also start to panic once i get low on hp

[grizzled maple]

how about you read the rules on src egozit

[stark birch]

Aprillomat is still routing all dialogue iirc, so why shitpost so minimally 🙃

[dapper cove]

and anxiety + already shaky hands isn't great

[true palm]

hornet 2 is going to be much harder than all skills watcher knights, and i'd only worry about healing at maybe 2 hp when you're learning, just focus on learning how to be aggressive, and not passive

[limber marsh]

Wow bullying

[steady lynx]

Youtube%, you have to talk to Elderbug and buy compass

[grizzled maple]

wow trolling

[dapper cove]

that's also why i like to use piano as a warmup because it works on intentionally going fast and pressing very specific keys at certain times

[limber marsh]

How am I trolling? I really don't get the rules

[formal bough]

inventory drops are not a major glitch

[dapper cove]

i meant wk any% when i was working on that... i agree that wk all skills is 100 times easier

[formal bough]

so are legal for nmg

[limber marsh]

Thx Alex

[true palm]

idk, would start with actually watching some content like fireb0rns any% guide, might help clear some confusion

[dapper cove]

and again i'm not going for speed just yet i just want a foundation to work off of for later

[rugged crow]

serious question, have you seen a run of the game before?

[true palm]

also heres this guide to explaining the different categories, and where to find resources

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHaOSIMxOEA&t=18s

[dapper cove]

what's the point in trying to make your first run as fast as possible because then you'll never make it to the end bits of the run all in order during a run because you get so hung up on going fast out the gate

[harsh mason]

because healing doesnt help at all

[dapper cove]

it does for me

[true palm]

the point is so you dont build bad habits

[harsh mason]

no

[dapper cove]

maybe not within the game

[limber marsh]

I've seen a lot of runs, why do you think I'm stupid? This category system is nothing like any other game I speedrun, so that's why I was confused

[dapper cove]

but mentally it helps

[verbal stag]

because practicing the fast strats makes you faster

practicing slower strats doesnt help

[true palm]

just watch the video, it explains the sorting

[limber marsh]

Thx for resources everyone!

[dapper cove]

i still haven't finished one run because i'm just trying to get it done

i'm just trying to have one run down as a baseline so i know what areas to work on the most

[harsh mason]

so clearly your healing strats arent working

[dapper cove]

up through claw i have consistently at 15 minutes

you're too quick to give up

[true palm]

and thats fine, it took me 3 months before i submitted my first run, granted it was a significantly harder category, but focus on learning properly

[dapper cove]

it takes patience

even as i do the fight over and over i get more comfortable with her rhythm

and even in the half hour i was streaming it you could tell i slowly got more aggressive naturally

because i learned her rhythm

[short spire]

literally any game with a competent mod team will not allow you to submit a glitchless run to a glitched category if a glitchless category exists what are you on about lol

[harsh mason]

4 heals is less than 10% of her hp, 4 shade souls is over 50%

[dapper cove]

katie i'm not going for speed

[harsh mason]

you'd need to heal like 20 times for it to be worth

[dapper cove]

i'm just trying to win the fight

[true palm]

as you get more comfortable, you'll need to heal less, and be able to integrate more damage

[harsh mason]

ease

not speed

[dapper cove]

you still have to start somewhere

[harsh mason]

if you've healed 8 times, you could have just casted 8 fireballs instead

and just killed her

[dapper cove]

if you throw yourself into the deepend that's not a good way to start

[dapper cove]

that's if i didn't get hit enough times to die beforehand

[vague jolt]

If you want to spend time healing, have you considered picking up a nail upgrade?

[digital jewel]

the goal of a leaderboard is to rank times with the same goal and ruleset. a no major glitches run is ranked against other no major glitches runs

[true palm]

before we continue arguing, do you understand why face tanking works?

[dapper cove]

for i frames and dealing easy damage

[true palm]

because killing the boss fast is easier than not taking damage

[dapper cove]

again i'm still learning

i picked up the route for the first time yesterday

[true palm]

ye no its fine, learn at your own pace

[dapper cove]

you were there cyn

i know what strategies work for myself with learning as i know myself best

[hearty adder]

the best thing you can do is get distance on her and farm double hits. If she gets too close and you don't know what else to do, you use ddark
Pisces' tutorial on All Skills should help you against hornet2 even if you're running on cp

[dapper cove]

watching videos doesn't help me that much, neither does having notes

[digital jewel]

give it a try

[dapper cove]

having notes is only helpful in pathing for me because i have fairly bad navigational skills because i really struggle to memorize maps

[hearty adder]

While going by feel may help on the short term, it could lead you maladapting and learning a more inconvenient/hard way of doing things

[digital jewel]

you're struggling and these are resources to help new players

[dapper cove]

i know

i'm just also saying i have a very very hard time learning in general

and many times just watching a video or having notes doesn't help me as much as it does for others

i had jesse and cyn in chat while i was working through the skips to get to isma so they could provide real time tips

[hearty adder]

It's just that, since there's easily available resources on how to deal with specific parts of the run, people are more than likely gonna lead you to those or just repeat what the resources already say

[true palm]

everyone learns in different ways, i got told to start with an easier category for instance, but the advice we're giving is the best advice for long term success, if you don't want to use it we don't have other tips to give

[dapper cove]

i do try to use it as a general rule of thumb

and i try to incorporate it

you and jesse were saying when to use ddark and shade soul during the fight and if i saw an opportunity to use it i did

[hearty adder]

If you're struggling even after checking the resources and listening to people, then all that's left to do is just practicing the damage rotation and getting better at it with time. There really isn't anything else that can make you instantly better at it

[true palm]

if thats the case, then most likely you're struggling not based on strategy but based on a lack of time

[dapper cove]

i have a very bad sense of time lmao

[true palm]

it took me probably like 6 hours to beat low% watcher knights my first time

now hornet 2 is nowhere near that level of commitment

[dapper cove]

as a joke with my friends we started a stopwatch and i was told to stop it after i thought a minute had passed (i had my eyes closed) and it ended up being around 20 seconds

[verbal stag]

I think they mean you just haven't put in enough practice time yet

[harsh mason]

you know if you keep hornet 2 combod

[dapper cove]

i have a very bad perception of time plus with not amazing motor controls i end up messing up inputs a lot

[harsh mason]

she staggers every 7 hits

[true palm]

hornet 2 is going to be the hardest boss in the run, so take solace in that you're at the crux of difficulty

[dapper cove]

as i said i did pick it up yesterday

[harsh mason]

its so unfathomably easier if you don't heal

[dapper cove]

katie i get the feeling we are just never going to get along

no offense

nothing against you as a person i just think personality wise we don't mix well lol

[hearty adder]

As we said, if you just picked it up yesterday then you probably just need to practice more

[dapper cove]

and i was going to practice the fight later tonight

[hearty adder]

you've just started out, and hornet 2 is one of the tougher parts of All Skills, it's gonna take a bit

[dapper cove]

doing dark room in peaks took me i think half an hour

[harsh mason]

she staggers,
you hit during stagger knockbak, you hit when she lands to wake up,
you hit when she jumps, you hit as she lands from a jump
you hit her again after she lands and double hit her with a fireball
and she staggers again

[dapper cove]

katie i'm still learning to avoid attacks

obviously what you're saying is optimal

[harsh mason]

i mean its like fc / fk

[dapper cove]

and i acknowledge that

but i don't have the skill yet to accomplish that

yet

i get hit so frequently it makes sense for me to heal

even if it's just extending my fight

it's like extra practice

[thorn jasper]

you could turn on inf hp in debug mod and just practice dodging her for a while

[dapper cove]

i mess up inputs all the time bc my hands are twitchy so i need to be able to heal when things like that happen

i didn't have debug mod yesterday bc i had to delete all my hk files

i'm going to install it for practice today

a lot of times i'll accidentally use shade soul instead of dashing bc the keys are right next to each other for me and then i get hit

now i can't heal and i missed out on damage

and i have to try and get that soul back

but i might die in the process

[thorn jasper]

I literally do this same thing, except my keys are two fingers apart

[dapper cove]

which is why i try to use my soul as soon as i get it for the most part

it's one finger for me

dash is L, quick cast is ;, and nail is K

with U being focus

[atomic ether]

@dapper cove I just starting running this game a month ago and was absolutely horrible when I started but like everyone is saying I used resources and practiced fights for hours. Started off dying to everything and slowly overtime got better and found my rhythm and muscle memory. Just last week I was able to get my first PB on the boards. Start slow and practice what you struggle with. You will se progress I promise.

[dapper cove]

i know and thank you brawndo

you don't become a god at something overnight

[harsh mason]

you dont really need to dodge if you practice stagger locking her
monstah had a really bad fight and got like 7 attacks, after first stagger and 2 were parries and 1 was mine setup
so it was 4 moves to dodge

i wouldn't even bother learning the fight

[dapper cove]

katie again my goal is just to complete the run once

so rn i'm just trying to kill her by any means necessary

and i will optimize as i practice

[harsh mason]

and the way that involves her doing nothing

is the easiest way

[short spire]

it's nowhere near that simple in real runs katie

[dapper cove]

i struggle with timing and inputs

[harsh mason]

well its a little harder because of no qs

[dapper cove]

that is if you have a perfect run katie

[short spire]

theres like 10 moments each cycle where she can do something to break out of stagger lock

[dapper cove]

if you have perfect inputs and perfect timing yes that's what you want

but nothing is perfect

i forget the name of the law but anything that can go wrong, will go wrong

[short spire]

with all due respect maybe its not best to give advice so confidently on a fight in a category you dont run

no what

[harsh mason]

would you like me to do the fight nail 0

[short spire]

it was not meant to be a burn

[dapper cove]

sorry i misinterpret things a lot

[harsh mason]

i dont really mind it versus nail 4 qs

[dapper cove]

i take it back

[harsh mason]

what do you use just shaman stone?

[thorn jasper]

nail 0 shaman yup

[dapper cove]

for now i just want to be able to say that i did it

[thorn jasper]

shade soul / ddark

[dapper cove]

that's the goal for now

just being able to say i did the route

even if it's not the optimal route bc i don't have the map memorised and i don't have a map infront of me

[thorn jasper]

have you seen pisces's video on this?

[dapper cove]

nor can i do every skip known to man

not yet bc i've been very caught up in a lot of things

[thorn jasper]

idk how different hornet 2 is on 1221 versus current patch, but his video is probably useful regardless

[dapper cove]

college is relentless and i'm working on transferring and finding an apartment as well so i have my hands full already so sometimes things just slip my mind

[short spire]

i think her staggers take one more hit on cp? but that should be the only diff

[atomic ether]

As a TE runner just you doing spike tunnel is impressive haha I think that is harder than TE shade skip so good job getting that far

[dapper cove]

thank you lmao

i improved exponentially on that during stream

[true palm]

ye spike tunnels not easy, especially learning it mid run

[dapper cove]

it took me at least ten minutes to get it once

then by the end me having to do that due to dying later in the skip i was doing it within two or three tries

and i got the acid skip rather quickly too

i don't use timing to measure when to do things i wait for the visual and audio cues

plus it helps in preventing muscle memory which can lock you down if you memorise it wrong

my experience with trick based sports has taught me that well

part of it is knowing what to do when

but it's more sensory than that

[thorn jasper]

ok so Tooo0f there was a lot of conversation going on in the past 30 minutes. what have you summarized for yourself that you'll take away?

[dapper cove]

reacting quickly once you feel yourself hit the ground after jumping

[sullen owl]

hello, im trying to learn how to speedrun the game any tips?

[dapper cove]

don't refuse help because all help is still helpful to some degree

[thorn jasper]

check the pins

[dapper cove]

even if it's not super helpful to you it's helpful nonetheless

and just keep trying

over time you'll get better

i personally am good at not getting frustrated at things so i can sit and fail at one thing for hours on end without frustration impacting my performanc

[thorn jasper]

and did you remember anything concrete you can take with you on your next hornet 2 practice?

[dapper cove]

knowing when to use ddark and shade

those are the two that would prove most helpful in killing her quickly

[thorn jasper]

excellent!

[harsh mason]

you dont have shade cloak either

[dapper cove]

because in terms of how much i gain from healing versus how much i gain from dealing that damage i need to know when to balance that

[harsh mason]

this fight is harder only walking

[dapper cove]

i personally stay on the ground as much as possible but i'm not afraid to jump

it's just that being in the air provides less mobility and thus makes it easier to get hit

[grizzled maple]

I believe Pisces tutorial should cover this fight pretty effectively

outside of the stagger difference its the same

[dapper cove]

with reaction times it gets easier to avoid things but i'm still working on improving my reaction times

i've never had good reaction times

or even a good sense of what i'm doing while i'm doing it for that matter lmao

i just make a mental list of rules to follow while fighting then go in

i do the same thing with sports practice (apologies for the copious analogies to ice skating it's just a very easy comparison for me to make given my background)

[thorn jasper]

if the analogies help then more power to ya!

[dapper cove]

if i don't have a coach there giving me advice while i'm doing it, i usually film myself doing it, so i can look back after and "update" my list of rules

[true palm]

anyways I've found that the video guides in particular tend to be well done, as someone who has never ran all skills, i did watch Pisces guide anyway, and i dont think theres anything left we can cover that their video wont

[dapper cove]

i've had coaches try to have me focus on how i feel during things like jumps (which last maybe 2 seconds) and i just can't so what we've done is just have me stand in the proper position and walk through everything step by step a thousand times so i know what to do and i don't need to focus on what i'm doing while i'm doing it

i worry more about when i'm doing things bc it's the when that i struggle with

timing is the number one thing i need to work on

improving reaction times and the like

[harsh mason]

here you go ax, nail 0, dashless, all skills hornet 2

[dapper cove]

because with improving reaction times i won't need to heal as often

as i'll be able to respond to attacks easier

[harsh mason]

although hornet 2 is weird without qs its more annoying to stagger, hitting it during jumps still does like 70% of the fight for you

[true palm]

the classic leading with a parry, thats my hornet alright

[dapper cove]

she would always do that with me

[harsh mason]

if i didnt have shade cloak id could press my button it'd be hitless 😔

[dapper cove]

i once had two parries then a tornado when i had no soul

[short spire]

im not sure what you're trying to prove katie

[dapper cove]

i don't either

and i'm the one supposedly receiving this advice

like katie

i understand what to do

i know the best strats for things like this

but it's all easier said than done

[harsh mason]

that i shouldn't give advice on how to kill hornet 2 with all skills, when its like i havent even done this boss in like 3 years

[dapper cove]

expecting me to be able to do everything perfectly without having practiced is rough

i haven't done it in i want to say a year and a half

i did the fight once on console

and never did it again

i remember what it was like to fight back then

i fought very passively

[true palm]

we dont expect you to get everything quickly or first try, we've told you how, but never imposed a time expectation of how long it would take you

[dapper cove]

playing where i only go for one hit at a time

[harsh mason]

its not like my bosses are bad, boss advice is probably the only thing i can give

[short spire]

yeah i wasnt trying to imply that, soery if it came off that way. my point really was just that it's probably more likely for ppl who have lots of experience fighting h2 in these specific circumstances to have the most relevant advice

[dapper cove]

this is how i like to see it

it's the curse of knowledge

it's the reason i feel a lot of teachers and mentors struggle

they already know what to do

[short spire]

the way you described the stagger lock for example made it sound way easier to maintain than it is in runs and im assuming thats cause you've mostly fought her with quickslash and full gear and whatnot

[dapper cove]

albeit they had to learn it at one point they do know what to do and are good at doing it

[harsh mason]

yeah i mainly do it with qs because thats what you do in pantheons

its about as annoying

[dapper cove]

so when they try to teach it to someone who hasn't seen it before sometimes there is a disconnect

[harsh mason]

you lose swings on the way up / jump, but gain them due to shade soul

[dapper cove]

because the person learning may hit a block and the teacher doesn't understand why because it is easy to them

[harsh mason]

which would be a massive damage loss with qs+fury to just ss her away

[grizzled maple]

I still highly recommend watching Pisces's all skills guide. it's for 1221 but a large amount of strats are the same

[dapper cove]

i'll try to remember to do that

[grizzled maple]

Just watch it with a cp run on the side and ask us here about "hey why is this different" if you notice a huge change

[dapper cove]

i'll write it down somewhere to try and remember to actually watch it instead of it falling into the pile of things i said i'd do and never did

[grizzled maple]

the main route deviation is cp actually needing to get shade soul legitimately

[dapper cove]

yeah

i'm big into math and i like knowing how much damage stuff does so if i see some deviation that's the first thing i look at

math and coding are my bread and butter so when i notice changes like that it's fun to figure out why

if there's some hidden reason in the code that it works

[short spire]

dmg numbers for anything relevant to all skills should be the same except petras have more hp

[harsh mason]

also does hornet doing attacks actually stop stagger

i thought it just delays it

like she cant get stagger out of throw but she still gets staggered directly after

or is it just her yeeting herself fullmap and dropping combo

[short spire]

idk how exactly it works honestly

it def doesnt full reset combo

[molten aurora]

According to pisces video, it resets stagger count.

For h1 and h2.

[harsh mason]

hornet doesn't have a stagger count

[digital jewel]

I thought it was a full reset

[harsh mason]

well she does it just doesnt do anything

unless you mean throw resets combo to 0 when it starts?

[molten aurora]

Yeah, the number of hits required to stagger.

[digital jewel]

yes

that's what we mean

[harsh mason]

i mean you hit her 6 times in it free anyway so

[short spire]

its not that rare to insta stagger her out of it

[digital jewel]

[harsh mason]

you're doing what swing pogo dive swing right

dive triple hits

[short spire]

i think it just freezes the count or something

you might just wanna look at the fsm and see if you can make sense of it

[digital jewel]

what did you mean when you said that hornet doesn't have a stagger counter

and then that she has a combo counter

isn't that literally what people are referring to

[harsh mason]

she doesnt count staggers done to her

she infinitely staggers

[digital jewel]

yes

[harsh mason]

unlike other bosses who only stagger a few times

[grizzled maple]

when people say stagger counter theyre talking about the number of hits to hit her to cause stagger

[dapper cove]

she has no stagger cap you mean

[grizzled maple]

at least with this boss

and i'm with ax, i've had her stagger like 1 or 2 hits out of needle throw. i think it just pauses it

[harsh mason]

after she finishes?

[dapper cove]

i know when i was fighting i think it was lost kin the stagger cap was rough bc after a while my heal windows disappeared

[harsh mason]

it sets it to 0 when it starts

so hits during the throw count

[grizzled maple]

they should yes

and whichever hit is when it's done will be the stagger, at least that's how it seems to me

[dapper cove]

and this was before i even considered speedrunning i was just going through regular progression and i normally play very defensive so when the staggers stopped coming it was a nightmare

[harsh mason]

it sits in this state once she starts

[dapper cove]

albeit that made me a better player bc at that point i had 2 options:

1. kill them faster
2. stop taking damage

[harsh mason]

and goes back to idle once she finishes throw

[short spire]

so let me get this straight, the combo counter before the needle attack start does not affect anything?

[harsh mason]

oh actually this isn't programmed correct

[digital jewel]

how surprising

[harsh mason]

it only resets combo counter

but keeps hit counter, and tracks hit counter

so if you hit her 6 times before, and 6 times during

[dapper cove]

are we talking about how the code works?

[short spire]

[harsh mason]

shes currently 12/13 hits to stagger normally

[dapper cove]

if i could see the code i can give a definite answer

[harsh mason]

but 0/7 hits to combo

[short spire]

extreme wack

[digital jewel]

amazing

[grizzled maple]

amazing and that makes sense

[digital jewel]

I don't keep track of the hit counter in fights

[dapper cove]

i love reading code so if there's things hidden in the code i can usually sift them out

[digital jewel]

does it get reset when she staggers?

[grizzled maple]

i have no idea how to explain this to casual who comes in and asks me how hornet staggers work now

[harsh mason]

does what get reset, hitcounter?

[digital jewel]

yes

[harsh mason]

both hit and combo counters do

[dapper cove]

to my knowledge

my baby knowledge

[digital jewel]

ok that makes sense

[dapper cove]

staggers work on a timer and counter system

[harsh mason]

we know how staggers work

[digital jewel]

so hit counter will only matter if you get two needle throws in a row

[harsh mason]

no just one

[dapper cove]

so if you don't hit them enough within a certain amount of time it resets and i believe the attacks play a part in that

[harsh mason]

if you hit her like 5 times, and she throws a needle and you hit her 5 times, you only need to hit her 3 times to proc hit counter xero

but her combo is 0/7

so you'd need 7 to proc combo

[dapper cove]

bc obviously some attacks take a while to do and if played correctly you can avoid that timer counting down by using spells if it's something where you can't get close to them

[harsh mason]

pretty much anytime she throws a needle you're going to proc the 13 hit stagger

we know how staggers work tof

[digital jewel]

true

[short spire]

so the non combo counter does not reset to 0 on needle throws?

[dapper cove]

that's imo half the reason spells are so OP because you can get multiple hits off with one cast and they do insane damage which makes staggers come quicker where you can get even more spell hits off

[harsh mason]

hornet 2 has two types of staggers
totalhits and combohits
combohits are hits with less than 2 seconds between
she needs 13 total hits, or 7 combo hits

yes non-combo stays

[short spire]

what happens if it hits 13 during the throw

[harsh mason]

she can't get stunned until it ends

first attack after it ends will stun

[short spire]

ok makes sense

good to know the specifics of the needle jank finally

[harsh mason]

thats probably why sometimes you dont insta stagger

and sometimes you do

[dapper cove]

now i really just want to sift through the code for the game just to see the specifics of how it exactly works but i think that's not in the public domain plus it would make speedrunning way way more optimised bc everyone would know the perfect way to do things based on the coding

[harsh mason]

you do realize, im literally looking at the code right now

[verbal stag]

people have done that already

[harsh mason]

to tell people how it works

[short spire]

katie literally just looked at the fsm to find out how this works

[dapper cove]

oh i didn't realise it was public domain

[grizzled maple]

the role katie has is modding staff. modding the game is literally what she does

[dapper cove]

i know some companies keep their code out of the public domain to prevent mods and people remaking the game to try and sell it off as something different

oh wait that's actually sick

[digital jewel]

you have the game files

[harsh mason]

reverse engineering is a right

[dapper cove]

but they can still make the files private

some files at least

it's sorta like how in coding there's private and public methods

[harsh mason]

its 100% legal to decrypt and read files and source code of private executables and data

[dapper cove]

oh i didn't know that that's cool

[harsh mason]

its only illegal if you use it to steal, and create copies

note i am not a lawyer

[dapper cove]

i know the main reason my parents were concerned with me releasing my games anywhere like on itch.io was for people to steal my ideas

just steal the code and stuff and try to rebrand it and sell it off

but back to speedrunning

[grizzled maple]

technically without a copyright of some sort thats legal to steal too

but getting a copyright is a whole other thing

[dapper cove]

i'm putting a cap in what i was about to say because i could ramble about it for hours

yeah that costs money that i know i don't have lol

and there's a whole legal process with it

[harsh mason]

anything you do is automatically copywrited

[dapper cove]

i really need to learn when to shut up about things lmao or else i'm going to keep rambling

[grizzled maple]

But without a copyright describing your game in detail, someone can legally just reskin it and call it their own IP

[dapper cove]

so to those here just telling me to switch topics is super helpful bc knowing when to shut up is a skill i haven't mastered lmao

yeah

[grizzled maple]

It happens with art all the time and its garbage

[dapper cove]

you need to have very specific copyright rights

that's why the whole thing with fanart became a thing

and giving credit to artists

especially on youtube

oh shoot speaking of games i need to get some work done on my game bc our sprint is over on sunday and i haven't started my work for the week

[harsh mason]

i mean you literally cant get copyright

any work you do is automatically copyrighted

the best you can do is keep evidence that it is yours

if you dont acquire proof that your copyrighted material is yours it might be harder to win in court

also with games, you cant register any part of it besides like art

people can take your game reimplement and reskin it 1:1 and its perfectly fine to do

[leaden python]

I think you can technically patent the code

but the patent will only be for the one specific version of the code. And it's a super painful process

[dapper cove]

yeah... any updates requires additional patents because it is inherently different from the previous iteration

[leaden python]

but it's stupid and nobody does it apart from some state agencies I guess

[dapper cove]

even if only slightly... which i believe there is a threshold for how different something has to be from a currently existing thing like the rule of thirds from art which basically means if 1/3 of your art is borrowed from elsewhere it can get flagged for copyright

[haughty comet]

how do i get the autosplitter to start when i start a run i can't seem to get it to work

[digital jewel]

do you have any triggers active?

[haughty comet]

are these the triggers

[digital jewel]

yes

ok did you open livesplit before the game or after?

after should work

[haughty comet]

i did have it open before i opened the game i'll reopen it

[digital jewel]

👍

[haughty comet]

it still didn't start on its own

[digital jewel]

run it as administrator

[haughty comet]

does it have something to do with the patch or should it work no matter what patch i'm playing on

[digital jewel]

doesn't matter what patch

[haughty comet]

running as admin didn't work

[old obsidian]

Have you by any chance changed the name of your hollow knight.exe file

[haughty comet]

yes i did

[digital jewel]

ok don't do that

[old obsidian]

yea you're not allowed to do that

[digital jewel]

uhh?

[haughty comet]

okay so put that back to normal

[digital jewel]

how does it even launch

[old obsidian]

yup

[haughty comet]

i have no idea lol

[old obsidian]

bc they changed the folder name as well xero

[digital jewel]

the folder is named incorrectly lol

[old obsidian]

that works

[digital jewel]

it does?

lmao

[old obsidian]

it has to be changed then it starts

yea

[digital jewel]

why did you do it though?

lmao

[old obsidian]

for steam

to show the name prettier

[digital jewel]

schy

[old obsidian]

at least that was my reasoning

[thorn jasper]

schy

[haughty comet]

in case i ever download another patch so its easier to tell them apart

[digital jewel]

you can literally change the name on steam

[old obsidian]

and then I found out you can change the steam

yea

[digital jewel]

these are all named hollow_knight.exe

[old obsidian]

aight I'm never not dumb

yea

[digital jewel]

1006

cursed

[old obsidian]

white palace

2 runs

never again

[hearty adder]

just rename the folder the game is in, not the game itself and the data folder

[haughty comet]

okay its working now thank you

time to try an any% speedrun with no practice at all 👍

[old obsidian]

good luck^

[haughty comet]

ty

[worthy sluice]

Can someone please kill me

[grizzled maple]

me first im older

[old obsidian]

me first im younger

[worthy sluice]

First a run died then as I was grabbing my phone from my sock drawer (I was recording there to prop it up) and a snow globe fell in my sock drawer and shattered

[wooden vault]

i have a 3 hour 27 minute and 35 seconds any % speedrun

Might work on a shorter time tomorrow

[worthy sluice]

Now I'm gunna need to get my foot amputated next time I wear a sock because glass is going to go straight into my damn foot

The run I was on was literally UN salvageable

Unsalvageable means I literally couldn't finish

Not without a metric crap ton of time loss it would've ended up to be probably around the two hour mark

Which I'm not uploading

I lost all my geo before sly

Yes, but I cant save

[digital jewel]

twitch can automatically save your streams

[worthy sluice]

Don't have a computer

Cant save on xbox

[digital jewel]

twitch

[worthy sluice]

I cant get to the save stream option unless I'm running twitch on a computer

I've tried on like 5 different devices

[digital jewel]

there's a setting to have it automatically save

[worthy sluice]

^

[thorn jasper]

xero like they can't highlight the vod

is what I'm reading

[grizzled maple]

hold up im about to figure this out because ive been on my dashboard on mobile before

99% of it works fine if you "use desktop site"

[thorn jasper]

can you highlight from mobile?

[digital jewel]

well being able to highlight or not doesn't really matter

they're saying they can't have the stream be saved

[thorn jasper]

oh I misread

[digital jewel]

which I'm 99% sure is just a general twitch setting and won't change if you stream from xbox

[grizzled maple]

confirmed it is possible to do this on a phone

[worthy sluice]

Where????????????

[grizzled maple]

Use the browser. click "use desktop site"

then top right corner drop down on your image > creator dashboard >Settings > stream > its there

[worthy sluice]

Ok ill give it a shot but right now imma try to clean up my sock drawer so I don't have to deal with glass going into the bottom of my foot

[wet marten]

hello

[grizzled maple]

Yeah this was one of the best perks of turbo before I got partner

[wet marten]

allbench%, npcbench%, dropkick Zote%, and many others will soon be real

[grizzled maple]

prime and turbo are the same only turbo has ad free and prime has a bonus sub

they used to actually be the same thing

[thorn jasper]

there's already a zote% where you fight him in colo 1

[jagged vault]

^ it's a great meme category

[grizzled maple]

theres also already a kill zote% where you go kick his skull at the earliest time he can die

[thorn jasper]

*turbo?

[jagged vault]

(to what slaurent said)

[subtle glade]

Guys is mantis pogo very hard or am I just bad at the game?

[grizzled maple]

okay so mantis pogo

[snow dome]

It can be very awkward

[thorn jasper]

it's hard yeah

[jagged vault]

it's a tricky timing

[wet marten]

yes but dropkick Zote% is just a speedrun where you hit him, and that's all. Hit Zote the fastest way possible, boom

no one like Zote

[jagged vault]

how is that different from the start of zote%

[digital jewel]

keep things on topic please

this is a speedrun channel

[jagged vault]

where the goal is to get to zote as quickly as possible

[steady lynx]

It's one of those days huh

[grizzled maple]

In this document I detail how the mantis pogos work with videos to compare
https://docs.google.com/document/d/10aXiOYQu-SLQlsyb5TTBfqFT8fNmBjyPJH7gJC8u_bk/edit?usp=sharing

[jagged vault]

it would just be the first few minutes of that

[grizzled maple]

This should be really helpful

[wet marten]

ok

[jagged vault]

that and every other category that isn't spellless and goes to greenpath almost

[snow dome]

Mantis Pogo is secretly one if the harder parts of the run. You have to do a lot of reacting.

[neon island]

Yeah, mantis pogo can be a little tricky and it takes some practice

Sometimes the mantises can be rude

[grizzled maple]

I would disagree. It's very mechanical and calculated

[worthy sluice]

Ok my feet should be free from glass ill see if i can find twitches save vid setting and do more any% runs

[grizzled maple]

If you do the steps right it's hard to mess up

[snow dome]

The upshot of it is that failing it loses you a very smol amount of time.

[grizzled maple]

and it's so consistent that if you fail you can tell exactly what you did wrong

[dapper cove]

i suck at mantis pogo and i end up taking like two masks of damage when i try it so i just back off and take the normal route

[jagged vault]

i mean em it's easy to be a tiny bit too slow

for double dash

and jsut miss it

[snow dome]

"If you do it right is hard to mess up" is like... Not particularly helpful.

[dapper cove]

but i also haven't looked at tutorials for it so it makes sense

[jagged vault]

the timing window is quite small to make it

[snow dome]

CP E Pogo is easy if you just do it right

[grizzled maple]

It's helpful when I just posted a doc explaining the steps

[dapper cove]

same for explosion pogo although i know the basic rules of explosion pogo

[digital jewel]

you can do double dash setup and then just pogo twice on the 2nd mantis. that's pretty fast and very lenient

[grizzled maple]

So if you fail just show me and I am happy to help you figure out what went wrong

[dapper cove]

where you want to be in relation to the explosion and the worldspace

but actually doing it is always another story

[jagged vault]

the most messups i have with mantis pogo is the first one barely slipping under the roof to the left when i'm gonna pogo

[grizzled maple]

The reason we have so many resources is so that people don't have to explain things from scratch so often

I feel like most people I see fail mantis pogo dont dash high enough on the first dash left, or they dont take the baby step before the fireball

[dapper cove]

yeah... just having widely accepted sources that everyone can confidently turn to is definitely super helpful

i mess up my inputs a lot on fireball skip so i'm probs going to work on that tonight after i've worked on my homework

but i also just mess up my inputs a lot in general so it's something i need to work on as a whole

[thorn jasper]

i definitely didn't know about jumping high enough on the first mantis. my only reference was fireb0rn's any% guide and it was either not made clear or i'm just dumb

[grizzled maple]

Yeah the right mantis manipulation entirely relies on that dash

if you're too low there's a problem

[dapper cove]

to me just watching a video over and over isn't super helpful because yes you see how to do it but unless it is explained in said video it won't do me much good

[snow dome]

The long and short for "is this hard" to me is that if you make a small mistake on like Spike Tunnel to Isma's, you do the exact same thing again and you're fine getting in.

If you make a small mistake on mantis Pogo, you can't just walk back to the lever and try again.

You need to do something totally different all of a sudden.

[grizzled maple]

Yeah you have to know the backup. This was about double dash specifically though

Someone new asked so i posted the doc

[worthy sluice]

Thanks I had always tried to do it in the app

I think I did it

[dapper cove]

seeing it is more of an add on to hearing it for me because hearing it explained is how i learn best and seeing a visual attached just sorta makes it that little bit easier to grasp

[grizzled maple]

and saying it's consistent and calculated if you follow the steps is pretty accurate

[jagged vault]

double dash backups are mainly improv though

[grizzled maple]

I cover the other option in the doc too btw

[dapper cove]

the way i like to see it is that once you've done it once it gets easier every time but sometimes just doing it that first time can be rough but once you get it you're off for the races

[grizzled maple]

I try to explain how to setup the staircase using a video

[worthy sluice]

Ya boi is streaming attempts

[grizzled maple]

i need to make one that covers airstalls as an option, and i need to add a couple more things to it, and I'll make it public

[dapper cove]

it took me a really really long time to get pogos done correctly but just attempting them wherever i saw i could feasibly do it was very helpful

i believe it is a grub that exists in that section of deepnest that requires you to pogo off of those centipedes over and over to get to and that took me an eternity to get but undoubtedly really helped me learn the timing of pogos

now the only part i struggle with in terms of pogos is when the object you're pogoing is moving upwards... i can do downwards just not up because of the decreased time you have to react

[jagged vault]

speaking of mantis pogo, i wonder if there is any faster double dash backup than something like this? https://clips.twitch.tv/LivelyCrunchyWatercressDAESuppy-suXnnAHJo1KNBxb9

of course somthing like this isn't a second strat you can consistently do if you mess up

[digital jewel]

yeah that looks pretty optimal

[jagged vault]

because each time you mess up you do the trick slightly differently and mess up a different part of it

[digital jewel]

anything that gets you left side is good

[short spire]

it just depends on where the mantis are afterwards really yeah

[haughty fossil]

fireball stalls highkey op for mantis pogo backups btw, i fail doubledash every time and still get pretty gaming pogos thanks to it

[short spire]

you got pretty lucky with the positioning and attack timing of the right side mantis there and probably got the most optimal backup you could have out of it

[thorn jasper]

is it just on my end, or is that mp4 not embedding? i've never seen an mp4 do that

[subtle glade]

Is this on 1.2.2.1?

[dapper cove]

the vid worked on my end and honestly i'd be terrified bc i'd assume i crashed my pc which i bought like two months ago

but it didn't embed (the vid)

it might be because of the file size that that happens though i'm not entirely sure

[subtle glade]

On 1.2.2.1 the game freezes when you kill 2 watchers too fast, because it tries to do that little freeze which happens everytime you kill one twice

[dapper cove]

ok then idk why that happened lmao it was just something to throw out there

my strategy for solving problems is always spitballing and hoping something sticks lmao

[worthy sluice]

I cant play this damn game

Its pissing me off so much

[thorn jasper]

then take a break, nugget

i haven't played much in a couple days

[dapper cove]

when anything starts frustrating me or pissing me off i just walk away

i don't set a time for how long

i just walk away

bc i'll come back when i'm ready

[turbid wren]

i've recently downpatched to 1.2.2.1 and made a debug file for practice, but whenever i try to create a new save file i only get the elegy and then it won't load the cutscene after that. i think i know what the problem is and how to fix it, just wanted to know if it was a common problem.

[dapper cove]

that's what's happening to me dw

i haven't figured out how to fix it yet bc it only cropped up yesterday

[turbid wren]

im going to redownload the depot tomorrow to see if that works