career-advice

[smoky quest]

I think the keyword here is student.
I know plenty of folks across FAANG and non-FAANG and none of them would have such resume or concept of filling up stuff. As people get more experience, they start to understand the benefits of adapting to your audience and get a better understanding of what recruiters/managers look for in a resume.

[gilded valley]

I am unconvinced. An alternative explanation is that they hold different expectations for junior/intern CVs than for experienced hire roles

[sullen sparrow]

not to mention that your random 2 month job stints probably dont help much either

I also think the density of text matches your expectations of people with enough experience to get hired at FAANG. However, random 2 month restaurant jobs and your sorting a SQL database probably dont get you many points. In addition there is a certain element of trying way too hard to the point where like people were saying if you print it, it could easily get messed up

[gilded valley]

I'm making no comments about the content of the CV - purely the text density

https://blog.tryexponent.com/google-resume/

this page has an example of a similar, admittedly slightly less dense and slightly better, CV

[sullen sparrow]

this literally breaks the first 3... it is not easy to understand in 5 seconds the font size and the margins are tiny and half the sutff is bold and italics and some isnt

[gilded valley]

given that it is a screenshot of one page, it very clearly does not break the first bullet.

[dense mesa]

Business revolves around condensing a lot of information into concise points. Look at A3 planning as well as Amazon 6-pagers for example. Too little whitespace is ridiculous tbh

[dark tartan]

tbh, I like googles own resume

It's nice and simple

[dense mesa]

Can you link it?

[dark tartan]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1biE5dEH__VVihHaIZoqqcH2g7uNHcdhAEjuZiiynt9k/edit

[dense mesa]

Is this an official Google resume? Looks very simple

[dark tartan]

I assume it is, it is on my 'start a new document' tab 🙂 .

[delicate bane]

no one has brought up this link https://careers.google.com/how-we-hire/#step-your-resume

[gilded valley]

Because it says nothing of substance

[smoky quest]

Keep it short. We don’t have a length requirement, but concision and precision are key — so think twice before letting your resume move onto multiple pages, and take careful aim with your information.

As usual, be mindful of who is the reader and how they will interpret it

[smoky quest]

They would definitely be more lenient on entry level jobs. But that's not a substitution for quality content and still prove beneficial to get ahead of the competition

[gilded valley]

I'm not saying it is about leniency. I'm saying the expect a more comprehensive CV because smaller details are more important in differentiating

[smoky quest]

that's not how recruiters and managers look at it though

[gilded valley]

Do you agree that the CV I linked is an example of a high quality CV with respect to formatting?

[smoky quest]

The first two are fine. The google PMM is way too dense to be readable

[gilded valley]

Well we're largely on the same page then. There is no major disagreement.

[honest pivot]

Anyone about to finish an undergraduate degree who thinks they have too much to fit on a 1-page resume with a normal amount of whitespace is fooling themselves.

[delicate bane]

i wouldnt say nothing nothing; can provide a helpful mental model

[gilded valley]

I would say every single one of those points is generic interview advice which can't help when discussing very specific things

[delicate bane]

yes it is quite generic, and yes it wouldnt help for specifics; still could be a good starting point

[sullen sparrow]

I feel like we work too hard on our resumes when the best way to get a job is without needing a resume or only needing it as a formality

[near ocean]

how does one get a job without a resume

even if you have a referral, you'll still need a resume

[dark tartan]

Tbh, with today’s market. You probably can’t unless it’s a family business

[sullen sparrow]

u can definitely lol u might just have to submit it as a formality

[near ocean]

where would one get a job like that

[sullen sparrow]

connections

[near ocean]

i dont even know anyone without a cv, regardless of whether they have a job or not

[sullen sparrow]

well thats a hyperbole

[near ocean]

you mean the same way

I feel like we work too hard on our resumes when the best way to get a job is without needing a resume or only needing it as a formality
is?

[sullen sparrow]

no

that isnt at all but go off

[near ocean]

have you found work without submitting a cv?

[sullen sparrow]

yes

[near ocean]

who is this gracious employer

[sullen sparrow]

3 of my 4 jobs Ive just emailed the manager or they reached out to me and I had to submit it as a formality but I already knew I had the job

[near ocean]

what kind of jobs were these

[sullen sparrow]

3 tech jobs and a sales job

[near ocean]

can you elaborate? companies? locations? working the floor at curry's pc world doesnt count as either a tech or a sales job

[sullen sparrow]

lmfao

Intel and 3 other local but still legit companies

but I could definitely get a new totally different job at intel without a cv or resume

[near ocean]

youre saying Intel hired you because you emailed a manager without you showing them a CV

[sullen sparrow]

no I didnt say that

[near ocean]

what are you saying then

might I remind people using this channel about this message?
#career-advice message

[sullen sparrow]

I am a person in the US and I have gotten 3 of my 4 jobs because I knew the hiring manager professionally or personally and submitting a resume was purely a formality therefore, in my experience, the best jobs are the ones where you do not have to compete with 100 other people

is that better

[near ocean]

so this is hyperbole then

[sullen sparrow]

no its not

most companies will not let you be hired without submitting a resume because HR stuff idk, so the "not needed" part may be but the formality part definitely isnt

[near ocean]

do you think the average dev has the connections to get a position without even interviewing, let alone not submitting a CV?

[sullen sparrow]

I think we should all strive towards that

[true harness]

how do you do that without a job

[near ocean]

idealism doesnt pay the bills lol

[brisk blaze]

you need a resume at least..

[sullen sparrow]

you dont need to spend years working on your resume trying to get past every little algorithm and everything

[brisk blaze]

resume, portfolio, linked in

[sullen sparrow]

who wants to be "average" though... maybe thats the problem

[near ocean]

if youre trying to pass this off as advice i would stop right there

[true harness]

did you know that as many as 50% of people are below average

[brisk blaze]

lollollol

[sullen sparrow]

thats simply false

[near ocean]

do you think someone exceptional doesnt have to show theyre the exception? how does this even work

you got a favour done for you, it doesnt say anything about your skill as a dev, borderline nepotism

[sullen sparrow]

the average of 12, 1000, 1000, 1000 and 1000 is 753... which means 75% are "above average"

[true harness]

as many as. actually, it should have been median, since you can have way more people below average

[sullen sparrow]

okay Im not arguing about semantics

[sullen sparrow]

you show youre exceptional in your current position and then you can get a new position easily

[true harness]

how do you do that without a resume?

[sullen sparrow]

by working hard and doing your job?

[near ocean]

how do people know what your current position is lmao

[sullen sparrow]

because they see you in it?

[near ocean]

bruh, if anyone can say anything why do we even have this chat

[dawn leaf]

Definitely not useful advice in this context but it is true that many roles are effectively filled before the job is posted

[near ocean]

what if i was exceptional at all my positions, should i not mention it because ???

[sullen sparrow]

what?

[brisk blaze]

why you need validation?

[near ocean]

how do you build a case for your exceptional ability if youre not compiling a list of past positions and achievements, are you for real

[true harness]

why would a recruiter/manager keep tabs on engineers at other companies to see how well they're performing. how would they even measure that

[sullen sparrow]

you dont get hired by a recruiter?

[cunning shale]

Should I keep studying C++ or start Python? (I've been studying cpp for 4 years)

[sullen sparrow]

its good to know atleast a decent bit of python and it should be pretty easy if youve done a lot of cpp

[dawn leaf]

this always happens based on close personal connections, usuallly the hiring manager knows you and your work

[true harness]

ok, i'm not arguing semantics. but you said this

by working hard and doing your job?
how does some manager/recruiter/whatever notice that? how would they even know what you're doing?

[sullen sparrow]

because theyre your manager? or because they know your current manager who gives raving reviews

[cunning shale]

Yeah, when I started Python, it was really easy

[near ocean]

i dont think you should rely on some manager's perception of your work to get a job, that sounds beyong silly

[sullen sparrow]

yeah just keep working at it. Learn cool tricks. I dont really like grinding leetcode as an interview tool but its great for learning new tricks

[cunning shale]

I see, thank you

[sullen sparrow]

except you dont promote yourself... your manager promotes you

but okay you do that 👍

[near ocean]

in the 4 jobs you've had, you've never had a bad manager? how old are you lol, are you even employed

[true harness]

why would your manager promote you to other companies? how does that benefit them. like, if they promote you well, you leave their company

[sullen sparrow]

no I havent because I knew the people beforehand lmao every job that Ive applied for an like interviewed and stuff has sounded absolutely terrible with managers who dont give 2 shits about their employees and paying well below what its worth

[near ocean]

how did you get your first job if you knew all your managers, what

are you telling me you graduated and got a job without submitting a cv? what are you even saying

[sullen sparrow]

no I got a job in high school for a ladys side business who worked at intel

[near ocean]

this has to be a troll

[sullen sparrow]

🤷 you do you man

[near ocean]

im glad you had such an easy life, i dont think you should try and pass it off as advice

[sullen sparrow]

I had such an easy life because I worked hard at my job in high school and my boss noticed that and offered me a position as an engineer?

also can I bring up this message #career-advice message

[true harness]

yeah. that sounds extremely lucky. was the high school job related to programming/software engineering?

[sullen sparrow]

yeah it was teaching programming but it turned into a managerial role

I didnt say it wasnt lucky

I said it wasnt "such an easy life"

[true harness]

as it turns out, those are quite often related

[sullen sparrow]

🤔

[smoky quest]

tbh, am not so fond of that as it can devolve into arguments of authority. And I am willing to pay the price to argue with high schoolers about things that would be obvious to older folks.
Not saying that some topics wouldn't benefit from some context or color either

[dense mesa]

If you consider a normal distribution, which many things happen to follow, roughly 50% will be below the median, which is roughly equal to the mean

I completely agree that if you can land work without a resume, either by being an exceptional worker or having an exceptional network, that would be way easier than refining a CV and grinding Leetcode like everyone else

Realistically that isn't the case for most people, and not everyone will necessarily want to excel at their work or spend time networking

[sharp void]

@lantz i have a career interview soon

[sullen sparrow]

W

[sharp void]

@queen rose

[sullen sparrow]

It was mostly a snarky response to him calling my experience bad advice lol I didnt sincerely think that message applied to my situation

[queen rose]

@sharp void That's cool meat

I just got recruited

[sullen sparrow]

but my suggestion was dont be most people 🤷 I know a normal distribution of devs would be 50% but it is definitely possible to excel and get top 5%. most basic devs arent the brightest

[smoky quest]

The benefits of having and maintaining a resume far outweigh the cost of doing so.
You are currently effectively limiting your career to the professional network you established in high school.

In addition, a lot of interesting opportunities would still require you to provide a resume, even if you come in highly recommended.

So yes, do be special and do build your professional network for some interesting opportunities, but I wouldn't recommend to neglect your resume either as it may hurt you

[near ocean]

did you go to college? if not, would you also suggest people dont bother because it worked out for you personally?

[dense mesa]

Yes and I agree, however a lot of people may be put off by this kind of perspective

[near ocean]

lmao of course people would be put off, its incredibly arrogant to call other people "basic" when you yourself lucked into a career
Youre not the only person out there working hard, some humility goes a long way

[wheat elbow]

Hello, quick question to all the employed machine learners out there - what was your most valuable resource when pivoting to machine learning? I am intermediate in python and have been narrowing down what i want to do and machine learning seems to be on top overall. Any advice or input would be appreciated!

[peak halo]

Having received a grant to do undergraduate research and subsequently publishing a paper on ML.

[delicate bane]

stel, masters when

or is it phd route for you

[vapid jay]

Which is the best platform to learn Full stack Java? Will someone please help me with this?

[wind acorn]

Freecodecamp?

Go into the YouTube channel you will find many Java course

[vapid jay]

I will dm you if u don't mind

[wind acorn]

Oki

[sullen sparrow]

I didn't call other people "basic" at all but feel free put words into my mouth. I also didn't say I wasn't lucky, in fact quite the opposite, but I feel it would be even more ludicrous of me to give advice based on something I wouldn't do myself. That seems 🤔 just because it's status quo to do something doesn't mean I should recommend it if I don't have experience. I also don't think spending hours and hours and hours on a CV is a good use of time. It may be "working hard" but it's working hard at something where your time would ultimately be better spent elsewhere. I also do believe it is possible for everyone to meet people, I know many of these coding places that employ high schoolers are run by successful managers at different large companies because I interviewed at a lot of them and kept that relationship alive even though I didn't accept their position. I also know a lot of young students who's parents work at tech companies who can see you interacting with their children and can build a relationship off that. It is almost certainly possible for everyone to ultimately avoid the never ending spam submitting resume grind.

Something as simple as going to a career fair, while it may require you to technically submit a resume, meeting the hiring manager and talking to them personally about the position goes a much longer way than how many leetcode problems you can do and how many keywords you can fit on your cv. That being said it of course does not make up for lack of experience, but your resume does not need to be perfect.

And I know you don't care but about college, a degree acts as a safety net. Even though the classes are mostly totally pointless. If it comes down to it and you are out in a big pool of applicants, if u don't have a degree or experience and you are self taught or just went to a coding boot camp it doesn't matter what you do a lot of positions won't even bother with you

I think Steve Jobs experience with college perfectly sums up the value for most people. The coding classes were a joke and barely helpful but that one random class you thought you'd hate was actually the most valuable class youve ever taken. I also met with a senior PE today and he gave the same advice. He said he wishes he took more English writing classes in college because that's not something he can just learn on the job.

But y'know I could definitely be out of touch on the college thing

[brazen trail]

I like to rewatch this every once in while https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LopI4YeC4I Veritasium - Is Success Luck or Hard Work?

[smoky quest]

I may not agree with everything you said, but I do appreciate the open discussion

[quartz igloo]

I want to install kali linux and learn ethical hacking but my parents don't allow me to. What should I do?

[brazen trail]

you can probably learn a good bit with VMs

[timber surge]

what's a legit site to find freelance work on?

https://www.python.org/jobs/ these are too formal...some want cover letters. I guess i'm looking for 'gigs'...

[smoky quest]

upwork or fiverr are pretty popular?

[timber surge]

thanks, i'll look into them

[arctic arrow]

is freecodecamp good ?

[near ocean]

it's pretty decent for what it costs, (its free)

[dense mesa]

It is almost certainly possible for everyone to ultimately avoid the never ending spam submitting resume grind.

You've not particularly said anything that supports this, everything above in the message contradicts it. These were networks you built yourself to some extent, but a lot of this is extremely US-centric, as well as not applying to the vast majority of people who simply don't have these kinds of programs for CS.

And the parents working at tech companies, anyone can benefit from nepotism then claim that "most basic devs aren't the brightest", maybe they'll even get the job without submitting a CV for formalities. But that person sounds like a nightmare to work with, and is the exact reason larger companies demand a CV, and don't let in unknown entities with "good relationships" to current workers.

Unless it's someone in a director/C-suite/board position, if I'm working with them and they joined a tech position without some quantifiable results and reasons why, I'd personally be pretty mad and looking to leave, as imaginably others would be too

[sharp void]

@queen rose you were in the same route as @vapid jay right?

[strange lintel]

Best Full Stack course ?

[gritty rivet]

Try #web-development... also, there is usually no "best" so better to explain your criteria

[pseudo bone]

Qualifications:

Experience and/or interest in the area of driving artificial intelligence use cases as well as a good understanding of digitalization of AI & ML business models and their disruptive impact on corporations
Master’s degree and a strong quantitative background, for example in Business Informatics, Business Science (with an additional background in Informatics), Computer Science (with additional background in Economics)
Ability to convincingly communicate results to upper management level
Strong communication and presentation skills
Fluent in English and German (or a strong motivation to learn the language)
Experience/interest in (agile) project management & cloud technologies

Hello everyone i have an interview tommorow with these requirements i feel like i am confident in communicating but how would you guys recomend me to look prepare for the technical side of the interview

[honest pivot]

Make sure you can talk about anything you've listed on your resume

[delicate bane]

hmm i feel like a few more bullets and that could be a manager position

[vapid jay]

pythonddanda lgbt beklemezdim

[sudden yacht]

We celebrate many events on this server, including Pride. Also, this is an English-speaking server.

[ivory sluice]

!rule 1 4 please check out our rules

[inner wren]

Rules

1. Follow the Python Discord Code of Conduct.

4. Use English to the best of your ability. Be polite if someone speaks English imperfectly.

[coarse crag]

if you were a recruiter/just any employer, what kind of project on resume would make you want to hire the employee despite their experience and education?

[dense mesa]

Hiring someone despite their experience and education?

[true harness]

made linux

[coarse crag]

uhm.. yes

[coarse crag]

well.. i mean creating an os is like too next level... i mean something like great projects but practical

[dense mesa]

Can you expand

[coarse crag]

i watched a youtube video and he said creating a bugtracker would be awesome and employer would want to hire you

[dense mesa]

Your question doesn't make sense though

[coarse crag]

oh i see

[willow onyx]

where can I find people who are really good at python that want a quick job

[coarse crag]

i'm just wondering what kind of projects would be eye-catching

i'm sorry if the question didn't make sense. thank you for the replies tho..

[dense mesa]

Depends on the company/field/location/many factors, I'm guessing you've watched the video that's making the rounds claiming that a bug tracker gets you hired instantly

[coarse crag]

well technically you're right. that's why i wanted an opinion of other kind of projects

[dense mesa]

That's like asking "is this a good book compared to others", you need to be way more specific

[coarse crag]

i see..

[dapper depot]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[dapper depot]

unfortunately, not here

[coarse crag]

i want to get into back-end development. i want to be hired as remote software engineer (i'm not looking for high salary, just enough). i'm still at the beginning and i only know basic python. but i want to know where i should go and what i should learn and what kind of project i should make in order to be good enough to be seen as employable and can learn alot more in the future.

oh lemme phrase it differently then. what do employers expect from a back-end engineers when hiring them?

[dense mesa]

https://roadmap.sh

[coarse crag]

ohhhh, yeah i saw this one before. thanks!

[pale latch]

gay python Xd

[coarse crag]

so if i follow through that roadmap it's good enough?

[lucid vapor]

yes, we celebrate pride month around here

[gritty rivet]

If you have a good handle on everything in that roadmap, I'd say that's beyond just good enough to be employable

[pale latch]

i dont

[coarse crag]

ohh okok! i'm happy to hear that, thank you so much! i'm not yet knowledgeable but knowing what i need to know is enough for me now.

[lucid vapor]

well, if you wish to participate here, you must be willing to conform to our #code-of-conduct

[coarse crag]

thank you and sorry for taking your time.. @dense mesa @gritty rivet

[gritty rivet]

responding to your original question I would say build absolutely anything that interests you (and isn't blatantly NSFW!) because to do something that's good quality and stands out, interest is key. Then as soon as you have a project or two, start applying for jobs. Don't wait until you feel "ready" because applying for jobs and hopefully interviewing is valuable experience even if you bomb the interviews. Obviously you always need to keep learning and advancing your skills, but honestly just knowing some basic Python can potentially be enough to get a decent job with a bit of luck.

[coarse crag]

oh i see.. that's a wonderful answer. thank you again!

[polar dune]

Hello, everyone! I joined this great discord server today. I've been learning python off and on for about two and a half years now, but I have never felt more lost.

Obviously, I'm better off than I was when I first started, but being self-taught comes with it's own problems, like what to "make" for example. I know people say just create a project, but seeing how Python has very diverse use, I don't know where to start. ML? Data Science? Web? Please, I need advice.

[peak halo]

sounds like you're looking for general learning advice rather than career advice. check out #data-science-and-ml and/or #web-development. though keep in mind that starting a career in DS/AI entirely via self-study isn't really doable.

[gritty rivet]

That's kind of how I felt when I decided to do the Nucamp Backend course, and personally it was exactly what I needed to get my first job in the industry. So if you feel like you've gone as far as you can with self-learning right now, a formal bootcamp might be worth considering

[bleak kite]

oi

[placid forge]

can I ask in ask channels about a bit off topic stuff then python? I want to ask something about how cpu runs

[lucid vapor]

!ot would be a better place

[inner wren]

Off-topic channel: #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[near remnant]

Why is it a tool for preventing socioeconomic mobility?

[honest pivot]

Because only the rich can afford to work for free

In particular, "prestigious" unpaid internships are effectively only open to those whose parents can foot the bill for them to live in an expensive city. Helps keep outsiders from breaking into a field, without appearing explicitly discriminatory.

[smoky quest]

These are pretty strong words though. I do see the situation a tad more nuanced

[undone willow]

Can someone help prep me with a mock interview? The boss of this company sent me 3 questions and I want to try my hand at answering it to see how it sounds.

[near remnant]

Oh I see, yeah, actually, I got an offer from a very good and big tech company for an unpaid internship. I could afford it, easily, so I understand your point. Its sad.

[undone willow]

I hope the internship paid off well tbh.

[near remnant]

Because I have money, because I worked while I was at university. So I saved up big money. I could rent a flat for a year or more without working with my money saved up😂

[honest pivot]

I have strong opinions on this. I think universities offering course credits for unpaid internships is only exacerbating the problem, and now you're seeing increasingly many universities requiring such internships to graduate. It's a mechanism for providing free labor (although I know the labor value of an intern is quite low, and possibly negative).

[near remnant]

Well, im not sure if Im gonna take it. They said they want to train me to hire as a junior after the 2 months. I would have a mentor.

[smoky quest]

yeah, it's just that going all the way to calling them despicable sounds a bit extreme

[near remnant]

If I can afford it then why is it wrong? Because of the poor people who cant?

[honest pivot]

I have my socialist days and my intensely socialist days 😄

[undone willow]

Depending if the internship was all that it’s cracked up to be I’d live in a car or McDonalds to do it. But that’s essentially living homeless to work.

[undone willow]

Honestly nothing? We could say slippery slope but at the end of the day just do what you think is right for you. 🙂

Edit: although I agree that the situation is kinda bs.

[honest pivot]

By contrast, for you personally I think if you have an opportunity that will get you ahead, you should take it. You didn't make the system you're living in. But it's nice to understand the context, and to remember it whenever you're in a position to make a decision about how it might affect someone else.

[near remnant]

Sure, I totally understand your point.

Thanks guys for your input, appreciate it. Helps me to decide.

[honest pivot]

Do you trust them to keep their word about hiring you on after two months? Is it in writing?

[near remnant]

I will have a final interview with them about the next steps and the details. I will ask them about this and make sure.

Or even something, like a guideline or anything, what should I complete or progress in order to get hired after. So yeah, I will ask. Thanks!

[honest pivot]

It's tricky, because obviously they can't really promise to hire you. All sorts of things could potentially go wrong with that. So there will be a bit of guesswork and trust.

[undone willow]

So can anyone help me with a mock interview? I hate to ask again. It’s only 3 behavioral questions

[near remnant]

Sure, go on

[honest pivot]

Tell me about a time when an interviewer put you on the spot with an annoying behavioral question

[smoky quest]

what do you need? I ignored it because I thought you wanted a call or voice chat
Or do you need something like some behavioral questions here in this channel?

[honest pivot]

I recently got the question "What could I do to make you angry?" That was fun, lol

[smoky quest]

I am sure you answered truthfully to it

[honest pivot]

I looked at the wall and I did not see a degree in psychology, so I'm not sure what insights they hoped to gain from the question

But yes, completely truthful and specific answers 😉

[undone willow]

“If you could work in any industry designing something, besides programming, what industry would you choose and why?

What are some real-world objects (buildings, animals, etc) that think you are well-engineered and why?

Have you learned any processes or programming techniques from someone that really helped you improve your programming skills?”

This is what was sent to me

[smoky quest]

lol these aren't behavioral.
That said, what type of answers do you have so far?

[undone willow]

1. Social Worker. I really liked helping people even if progress can be slow.

[smoky quest]

Why specifically social worker then. Wouldn't there be other industry where you can help people at a faster and less frustrating pace?

[true harness]

it also doesn't answer the question correctly. that's not an industry where you design something

[undone willow]

One thing is to help someone feeling bad one day. Another is to help someone make and stick with a plan to find shelter, a job, and quit addiction. It can be frustrating but at the end it is much more rewarding to help your fellow man from a bad place.

Maybe I should come up with something else?

Like animation?

For real work world objects: I like cheetahs because they run very fast due to having better legs. I think I read about them having two knees that allow them to run faster.

I was introduced by a friend to flask. She told me about how she used it to set up a back end so she could make her own website. I thought that was really cool and I hadn’t known about web frameworks before so I decided to go into the frameworks documents and YT videos to learn more about it

[delicate bane]

this is always really good to keep in mind

[undone willow]

> I think I would want to become an Animator and create my own shows. I enjoy going on the web and seeing the skits that people make that garners a lot of attention
and possivity. Being around a group of people that I can design things for that we all enjoy together could be a lot of fun.

What are some real-world objects (buildings, animals, etc) that think you are well-engineered and why?

> I really like the Roman Collisuem. On the outside its a simple design of just a circle with another circle in the middle when you see pictures of it. But the
Collisuem was made with a lot of effort and good materials that has kept it ongoing for 5000 years without much maintenance. People who were later not even Romans
enjoyed its presence and never even debated taking it down because of how large and complex it was ultimately. 



Have you learned any processes or programming techniques from someone that really helped you improve your programming skills?

> Initially when I was learning to be a programmer I overloaded myself with really large tasks instead of breaking things down mentally. I used to
always think: "Oh if I do this then how will it connect with the other things" and needleslly frustrating my mind with trivial questions. My friend pointed
out to always try to think of larger programs as features being brought in together. Work on each separately and they will usually come together. And if something
ever dosen't work just read the errors first before fretting too much. ```

Are these better answers for these interview questions?

[astral ermine]

A recruiter from TCS contacted me for an Entry level software engineering position. I've mostly focused on Python for data science and have very limited experience with building any type of system. What should I be expecting? Would their training suffice if I make the most of it?

[vernal rivet]

Maybe the staff team hates me now

[astral ermine]

Who are you in this?

[vernal rivet]

scoutTS

TS=TeamSpeak

[proud rapids]

Hey guy, i'm curious about different between computer engineering and computer science. Are they actually work on diffirent thing in their career ?

[peak halo]

computer engineering is about designing computer hardware. computer science is ("officially") the theory of what can be computed, but the coursework in a computer science degree program will often be about programming, to one extent or another.

[proud rapids]

do computer engineers write code ?

or they just working on circuit like electrical engineer ?

[peak halo]

if they do, it would probably be code for embedded systems, or something. I was a CS student, but computer engineering students at my university didn't deal with any abstractions higher than the operating system.

[proud rapids]

how about CS, do they work on operating system like develop and coding ?

[peak halo]

"computer science" as a concept isn't strictly about modern computers. it's about algorithms, what problems they can solve, and how efficiently they are able to do it. but since computer science is recognized as the thing you get a degree in to become a programmer, many of the courses will be about programming. and programs, once written and executed, are managed by the operating system.

[proud rapids]

how about embedded system thing like raspi project ?

[peak halo]

there are people who do that, I guess

if you're not designing the device itself, and you're just writing code to run on it, I imagine that would fall more under CS

[proud rapids]

ah got it thank you, if so why people make computer engineering and electrical engineering ? arent they the same

they both work on hardware level

[delicate bane]

lowkey maybe.
another pro tip: the smiley face is not actually a happy smiley face

[peak halo]

at my university, they were two degrees offered by the same department. so some of the courses were probably the same, and the instructors were probably largely the same even for the courses that didn't overlap

[proud rapids]

the school i'm planning to apply, they have something like The Bachelor of Science in Computer Science and Software Engineering (CSSE) and i have no idea about that

[peak halo]

that's one program, or two?

[delicate bane]

my cousin's major was ECE, "electrical and computer engineering" -- i believe more modern programs combine the two

[proud rapids]

the pathway show me that they both in one degree, it's called CSSE

[delicate bane]

you can also do separate EE or separate CE

but i think most students at his school ended up doing the integrated program, ECE

[proud rapids]

wow there are a lot of way to earn the degree, how can i find the right one for myself ?

[delicate bane]

this is a great question!

[proud rapids]

because there are CS, EC, EE and they seems similar

[delicate bane]

i think something to consider is what are your interests/what you like doing; something you can explore further in a program like this too

for example, if you explore and find yourself really attracted to cybersecurity, maybe you can take further electives, participate in cybersec competitions, join the cybersecurity student org, etc.

[proud rapids]

so if i graduated cs and i changed my mine, i want to work with hardware level or if i was EE/EC and want to get into software career, is it okay to do that ?

[delicate bane]

i cant speak to the former, but my cousin is doing the latter lol

[proud rapids]

ah ok

[tawdry grove]

I majored in electrical engineering but I really focused in embedded/low level programming. I do C++/C/python/VHDL and more - I'm considered the "lead software engineer" on my team. It's all about the competence you show. My resume had lots of good projects on it and it wasn't bullshitting, so interviewers know I can do what they need.

TL;DR - any of those majors are good. Take the one that's most interesting to you. If you want the most money/demand go into web development

[coral dew]

What should be the in-hand pay of a full-stack web developer, who is just starting?

Unclear thoughts.

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> troll

[smoky quest]

depends on the location, companies, your education level, and local taxes

you may be more interested in one of the off topic channels then

[coral dew]

Say for a remote role from a remote location, with no degree or cs background. What is the least one can expect.

[smoky quest]

Salaries will be based on your location, not the location of the company's HQ.
So someone in a lower cost country would have a different pay than if you are located in the San Francisco bay in the USA

[dull lantern]

Guys my shit brother was typing this i didn't i am a pure career enforcer i will crack iit want air 1 and a nice profession that guy's an asshole

[dapper depot]

@dull lantern please stop disrupting this channel

[dull lantern]

I Am most serious

[coral dew]

well, that doesn't seem fair for the people of 3rd world countries. they deserve equal pay for the same amount of work. Also, the cost to the company should be the same.

[smoky quest]

We can discuss about why and what I think about it, but it won't change the outcome 😉

In general it comes down to:

• It's a market with supply and demand. If you want the same wages than someone in the USA, that's fine, I don't have to hire you as there will be plenty of other folks in your country for less
• There are additional costs linked to you being there. For instance the fact you may be in a completely different timezone or that your labor laws may be wildly different and that I will have to have a completely different process to adjust for the taxes in your country. There are also risks involved with dealing with people with a different culture and different laws and different ways to work

[coral dew]

It is what it is, ig.

[vapid jay]

I received documents submission mail from HR but it's been 20 days since then I haven't heard anything.I contacted the HR on the 19th day and she said she will check and give me the update but no revert till now.What are the chances of me getting further?

[proud rapids]

which one is future proof ?

[tawdry grove]

Which what? I cant tell you what the future holds. But safe to say doing anything with technology will be in demand lol

[proud rapids]

Ah got it! Thank for your advice

[tawdry grove]

Of course. I mentioned web programming specifically because that's the most in demand right now really. But any of them have their pros and cons, you should make a decent living with whichever you choose

[proud rapids]

is it possible to switch a field like for example from web to embedded ? it's just example

[honest pivot]

It is possible to switch fields, but not easy

[proud rapids]

you mean the degree ?

[dense mesa]

It's very difficult to go from CS into hardware/electronic engineering (electrical engineering isn't the same and idk why people keep calling it that)

It's relatively straightforward to go from EE to software, if not a common route

[vapid jay]

Guyysss, im gonna take computer science. Do yall have any advices for me?

[analog sun]

Take notes, ask questions, stay curious

[mystic garnet]

Uhhh how can i varible a programe? 🥲

[gritty rivet]

Not sure what that means but it's off topic here. Try #python-discussion or #❓｜how-to-get-help

[short spoke]

so I got waitlisted to my 1st university… which courses are close or akin to Computer Science so I can easily shift to it the next sem?

my mother suggested to just pick the available course and just shift to it when applicable

[peak halo]

I would check the general education requirements for the computer science program. They should be on the website.

For example, the CS degree will probably require you to take calculus, but that's not a CS class, so you can probably take it anyway. But there shouldn't be any mystery about what classes do or don't count

[gilded valley]

what country are you in? The US?

[short spoke]

Philippines

[dense mesa]

Maths, physics or engineering

[short spoke]

aight ima look into it

[robust atlas]

hi guys! quick question....i am applying for two year college CS degree and doing python institute certificates ... i know i do need more languages in order to get a job in CS but will this be enough to get the first job?? Thanks in advance

[peak halo]

it's hard to measure whether or not you "know" a programming language. once you have a general sense of how programming works, picking up the basics of another one is trivial.

I'm a bit confused by your question. In the US, every two-year college I know of just lets anyone. is this for an associate's degree?

[robust atlas]

yeah associate's degree

so how do they know how much you know? projects?

it's in the US

[peak halo]

usually one gets an associates degree to knock out some of the requirements for a bachelors degree.

so how do they know how much you know? projects?
if it's a community college, they don't necessarily care. the community college I attended was transparently a business that sells courses. a bachelors degree program will be selective, however.

[robust atlas]

your point would be that community college is basically worthless in this case?

[robust atlas]

Thank You!!

[peak halo]

I went to community college to get an associates and do some of the requirements for a bachelors degree. and then I went to a state university and got one.

[robust atlas]

i wanted to get a job before continuing bachelors degree. Like a gap year i want to work in betwee

[peak halo]

unless you find job listings that specifically state that an associate's degree is adequate, I wouldn't count on that being an option.

[robust atlas]

right well thanks anyways

[peak halo]

once you're in a CS bachelors program, you can apply for over-the-summer internships that pay reasonably well. my university also partnered with companies in the state to let students take a break from courses and work for a year.

[robust atlas]

but that is only when applied to bachelors degree?

like you would work for a year after you applied for a program already?

[robust atlas]

so even though you have the same knowledge of the language if you haven't finished something in school it doesn't count as same...wow

[peak halo]

the fact that you're being penalized for writing code "like a programmer would do" is disappointing. my guess is that they want your submissions to look like what they're expecting, to make them easier to grade.

they might also think you were cheating. but I'm not sure.

[vapid jay]

Hi, I have important question
anyone know is there any equivalent/alternative of CS for Commerce/Business Studious Student specific for Bangladesh Student

[robust atlas]

Thank You for Your replies ! I was interested in a point of view from someone who is experienced so know what to expect

[smoky quest]

that's my interpretation as well. It's less about how they wrote (ie. like a programmer) and more about the sudden and large difference in style

[signal hemlock]

@robust atlas many companies (esp smaller tech companies) will gladly overlook academic records if you have a decent portfolio, so use the 2 year time to build a repertoire of projects focused on the field you want to get into (like web dev), take an internship as soon as possible and then just showcase your skills + experience

This is from my personal experience of course (so results may vary)

PS if you do well enough in an internships, you can just contact the company for fulltime offers, but don't expect the best pay

[smoky quest]

Devil's advocate:

• If it is that easy or the same, then why don't you have it?
• Given they have it and you don't, that's an advantage for them
• Companies deal in aggregate with candidates across the country and even the world. They can't spend whole days and weeks assessing specifically what you know and do not. While not perfect, a degree does provide a form of baseline

[smoky quest]

In general, if you are going to spend the 2-3 years on it, you may as well do it in a degree. That would provide a better learning environment and more opportunities and an easier career

[signal hemlock]

You are definitely correct, tbh i value the internship experience more than the teachings personally, but my advice was in assumption that the person might have a constraint to not pursue longer programs

[remote pasture]

Hi all, My name is Arda and I am a Ph.D. candidate in Solid-State Physics and working at an ISP as a part-timer.
Started to study/learn python almost 2 years ago. Trying to be a back-end developer.
I would like to improve my skills and I am looking for an internship to do it, but I don't know where or how to start. Can you give me some advice about it?

[meager plaza]

Can anyone answer the world's hardest question? How does a 15 year old find a job?

[smoky quest]

A lot of internships are listed on linkedin or indeed

[smoky quest]

For long term career, make sure you have the grades to go into college/university and get a degree, especially a CS degree if you want a CS job.
For summer jobs, restaurants and coffee shops are popular summer jobs

[remote pasture]

For summer jobs, restaurants and coffee shops are popular summer jobs?

[smoky quest]

For summer jobs, restaurants and coffee shops are popular places where you could find summer jobs

[remote pasture]

I currently work for an ISP (Internet Service Provider)

ty but i am not looking for a summer jobs

[smoky quest]

I wasn't replying to you. Looks like you mixed the answers

(my other reply was for you though)

[remote pasture]

Sorry for that sir/ma'am I misunderstood and I apolgize.

[smoky quest]

np.
See <#career-advice message>

[remote pasture]

ty so much I will search for them

[near ocean]

If youre 15 and you got so much free time that youre thinking of the workplace, you should do more learning, building, socialising while you still can instead

[vapid jay]

i got into a high school honors ap class with a career center, both giving me high school credits, 13/24 + future 10, and not even in highschool yet

tho it’s gonna take a lot of school service work and extra classes

[dense mesa]

That's good man nice job

[vapid jay]

yeah ig, i don’t rlly care about high school classes bc if i drop out early and still get a diploma, i mean i still want the classes rather than have a whole year of only half days

[primal hound]

Hi guys, is there really a difference between a software engineer degree and a computer science one to become a software engineer??

[balmy spade]

Depends on your country. In some, there is a very significant difference for that engineer title.

[primal hound]

I live in Canada, I need to pick between bio and physics for my grade 11 classes next year, my orientor said that bio was easier, but physics is better engineering wise, so im kinda stuck

[narrow owl]

I've been feeling lately that job requirements for software engineers is just insane. Like every job opening requires experience with so many different services. Like in one job opening you can see "2 years of experience with AWS, proficiency with {insert one of the millions of JS frameworks}, familiar with .NET framework... etc"

It makes me feel like I'm not qualified for any job just because I don't know AWS or C#. So many jobs require one or the other and I just don't understand why. I know Python and C++ and I have plenty of experience with postgres and asynchronous programming and design patterns and just so many things... yet I can't shake the feeling that these job requirements are absolutely ridiculous...

Let me know your thoughts.

[elfin abyss]

Depends on a lot of factors. But in general a software engineering degree is more focused on programming and applied programming things, as well as throwing other engineering-related units in there since you are of course becoming an engineer. Computer science has a much larger focus on math and algorithms and computational theory etc, programming is only half of the picture

[gritty rivet]

Sure, there's no question that job postings are ridiculous. But don't overthink it. You haven't said much about your goals and situation aside from your tech skills, but if you're looking for an entry-level SWE position it sounds like you're on track

[gritty rivet]

Physics is math-heavy, bio is not. So if you're strongly interested in CS, physics will be better prep in that sense. But if you really rather do bio, do it, you'll be fine.

[primal hound]

Thank you for your help! I just decided I will be taking physics and chemistry next year 👍

[undone willow]

Can someone give me some help on something? I am trying to find out more information on a remote job offer but I don't know how exactly to do it.

[narrow owl]

I'm a sophomore in uni and a computer science major. I work part time as a Python tutor. My goal is just to graduate and get a decent paying job as a software engineer.

I'm confident that I'm a decently skilled programmer, I just feel like everyone knows so much more than me. For instance, I still come across a large amount of terminology that I've never heard of, all the time.

I dunno. I'm worried that I'm going to graduate and be rejected from employers because I'm not as good as my peers. I guess I'm just looking for guidance cuz I have such a strong passion for software and coding. but other people are just better than me it seems.

[peak halo]

How do you know that they're better than you?

This sounds like negative self talk.

[smoky quest]

Sounds like imposter syndrome.

In general, when you will talk to your peers, you will notice that they may employ some terminology you don't know in some area, but there would also be parts where you know terminology you know that they don't. That's because the field is so broad and there is so many things to learn. That's fine and even great as you can learn from each others

In terms of companies, they know and expect you won't know anything about AWS, .NET, python or anything. And that's fine. While the more things you know related to the role helps, they will care a lot more about your growth potential.
Anyone can pick up a language in a few days/weeks, but it takes a lot longer to get the fundamentals

[smoky quest]

Also, looking at students as a cohort, you are receiving similar classes than the other students graduating at the same time you do. So assuming you get correct grades, there is no reason to assume you are worse than the others

[narrow owl]

So does this mean the job postings are lying? They say you need experience with AWS, .NET, whatever else.

[smoky quest]

• If they are asking for some years of experience, they aren't entry level jobs
• See it as a cost function. That's their ideal candidate. You don't have to be that perfect fit, you may even be fine being 20% close to it

Like for instance, I would hire some scala backend devs but ended up hiring some python dev (they had great transferable skills like backend)

[peak halo]

@smoky quest in my experience, if the job listing says "one to two years of experience", they'll still interview candidates who meet some of the other criteria.

[smoky quest]

definitely! It's not binary. And even sometimes you would spot something in the resume that catch your attention and make you want to talk to them

[narrow owl]

here is a job posting - the first one on the list. "Entry Level Full Stack Developer" for Speak_
Just in the "basic qualifications" they're expecting several years of experience.
and this isn't cherry-picking - it's nearly all "entry level" job postings that I've looked at

[smoky quest]

yeah, they don't say 2 years of experience in them though

If you are interviewing for fullstack positions, they will ask you questions about how much frontend and backend you know. While they may be satisfied with uneven levels of proficiency, they will list them because that's the job 😉

During your classes, you will also have the opportunity to work on some projects, that will have frontend or backend or even sometimes both. They will help gain that experience and give you the opportunity to put them on your resume

[summer roost]

Yes, job postings lie. What they list as minimum requirements are actually a wish list of what the ideal candidate would look like.

the single biggest piece of advice I give to people when they start applying to jobs is to completely ignore the listed qualifications in job ads.

[narrow owl]

That's definitely good to know... lol

[summer roost]

And - I second the "imposter syndrome" vibe. If you're working as a tutor, you're almost certainly well above average. Sure, there are many people who know more than you, but the fact that there's always more to learn is one of the big selling points of this field.

[summer roost]

I mean - take them as guidance. If they ask for someone with 15 years of professional rocket design, maybe don't apply to that job. But if they ask for 3 years of X and you have 6 months of X and are good at it, you're probably good enough for what they're looking for.

[smoky quest]

it's a lot like a dating advice. When you are looking for someone, you cannot predict what you will find or what you would settle for. So you put forth the ideal candidate and go from there.
Similarly, companies cannot predict who will apply and do not want to close the door to potential great candidates. But they also do want to stir the candidates towards their needs

[summer roost]

the cost function explanation is a good one. When they wrote that job posting, they had a set of qualifications that the ideal candidate would have in their head. The further you are from that ideal candidate, the tougher it will be to sell them on you - but if you have 1 year in some tech that they're asking for 3 years in, that might not be too tough to convince them if you know it well. Or if you know 2 of the 3 things they're asking for well, but don't know the 3rd one at all. Or things like that.

[narrow owl]

Well coming right out of college i'd have no experience doing development other than my personal projects and side gigs

i can probably get an internship before graduation, but not a full time job because of uni schedule

[summer roost]

if you can get an internship, you should. Those count for quite a lot. But, so do things like tutoring jobs, or TA positions, or things like that.

[narrow owl]

Also unrelated question - does involvement in my university matter at all to employers? Like I'm in an org at my school called "Women in Engineering"
Not sure if stuff like that is important or not

[summer roost]

yes

leadership is good. Involvement is good.

[narrow owl]

Okay, well thank you both a lot for this. I think I have a better outlook on things now

[vapid jay]

ive mostly been doing general programming like api wrappers, discord bots, web dev and stuff related to backend, but i cant find what field suits me the most or the one i like, any suggestions over going through all fields?

[vapid jay]

Something that pays money is good.

im not really in for the money, i like chasing my dreams and not money

Oh me too.

thats good to hear

Dreams can pay money though

[smoky quest]

There is always google, but I am sure you already know about that.
Otherwise, some other ideas:

• Go on linkedin/indeed and look at the popular roles beyond the top 5
• Look at the specialties or modules offered in grad school
• Look at various textbooks for ideas of topics

A lot of these will also be gated on your location or ability to move to other locations as well as possibly your education level of past experiences depending on the fields

[plush spindle]

How did you guys learn leetcode for interviews ?

[smoky quest]

you do the exercises and look them up after X minutes

Reading books on algorithms does also help

[buoyant seal]

What u don't like about backend? Hint us with something what to advice as alternative

There is always an option to try yourself in DevOps, or frontend, or in desktop/Android/iOS/embedded programming

Or may be u just need language with higher result quality in backend, like golang

Or may be u just want to be more of architect during backend dev

Or may be u a just missing some important clue in how make not messy code (including in backend)/ how to write clean code/architecture

[plush spindle]

🙏 🙏 🙏

Thanks @smoky quest

[buoyant seal]

Usually the goal is to get just one job from applying to hundred (s) job positions
And preferably getting job the most useful for skill growth

Surely getting just ONE job out of hundreds is possible task

The stuff with all the super requirements will be useful later, it will make an active search by recruiters at a later career stages

[weak turret]

Hi just a question how much knowledge of python will be required to take up an internship and enter the IT industry?

[near remnant]

I've received an internship offer, 3 months, turning into a junior position in the end with insane salary. the problem is, the internship is unpaid.

[gilded valley]

Haven't you already had this conversation at least once?

[near remnant]

Kevin Costner 😂

[near remnant]

depends

[near ocean]

i thought you already had a junior position offer

[native narwhal]

i have janitor position

[near remnant]

https://tenor.com/view/super-hot-sike-fire-ooooahhhhh-gif-11518159

i have a junior janitor position

[native narwhal]

mariosis very helpful across many servers... true and true

[near remnant]

Travel... without moving.

[native narwhal]

I just wanna be react dev in a year 😦 why am I even on this channel... maybe cuz I once loved python dearly

[near remnant]

snacc attacc

[dense mesa]

You've said this like 5-10 times before?

[near remnant]

that's my hobby

sorry mate

[vapid jay]

hii

everyone

[night glen]

pride month = demon

@analog sun

[analog sun]

!tempban 887706411147096155 30d You decided to ignore my previous warning, and it seems like this community is not a good fit for you during this time. Please take this time to reflect on whether you wish to remain a member here.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @night glen until <t:1657369369:f> (29 days and 23 hours).

[undone yacht]

Whats like the bare minimun age to get a job?

[peak halo]

depends on your country/jurisdiction within a country.

[sick sable]

Where can I share a package I released on the server?

[dense mesa]

Sounds good but this channel is the wrong place, consider getting initial feedback in #python-discussion and potentially #community-meta if it's server specific

[tough drift]

do physics because bio is boring

[dense mesa]

@sweet field @vapid jay #python-discussion

[livid moat]

sterlercus be lurkus

[mystic gale]

Hello everyone, my name is Aniss and I am happy to be here today, I am new here and was wondering if recruitment is allowed in this server? (full-time remote)

[analog sun]

No, we don't allow recruiting in the server

[vapid jay]

Hey everyone!

Is there anyone from India?

[peak halo]

I believe a plurality of our users are from India

[vapid jay]

ohh

I wanna ask some questions

[peak halo]

go right ahead.

[vapid jay]

I want to become a programmer and get a job but I don't have any IT or CS degree. How can I apply for a job? and what things do I need other than traditional method of getting jobs? Also, I am from India and here, companies hire engineer degree holders too much.

[small spoke]

What is the best way to prepare for technical interviews I'm going into my third year of CS, so I think I learnt pretty much the majority of DSA concepts covered in interviews, but I'm pretty sure I forgot a lot of stuff since a good chunk of DS knowledge comes from my first year and second year first semester.

[peak halo]

what sorts of positions are you applying for? that information might help people give you better answers than "grind leetcode". there's also the #algos-and-data-structs channel.

[small spoke]

primarily swe internships

[buoyant seal]

In around last thirty interviews I encountered only twice need for leetcode.
If u aren't going to join FAANG internships and companies who try to imitate them, then u aren't going to need it

Better learn git and unit testing stuff
https://learngitbranching.js.org/
And
https://www.manning.com/books/unit-testing

Awesome thing for beginners to serious work

And learn other directly practical or theoretical stuff, do pet projects, read books xD

[small spoke]

Thanks!!!, I'm not super crazy for FAANG as i'm doing this for my first Co-Op/internship which goes for 12 months but I still want to give it a shot.

[mystic gale]

Sure, thank you for your reply, I respect the rules and that's why I wanted to ask before anything, have a wonderful day

[small spoke]

Could I send you a friend request if your ok with it?

[buoyant seal]

It depends on type of future talks.
I would not mind talking in voice
I would mind private talks majorly in text

[small spoke]

just overall talks about how your internship journey was like, advice that you have as a backend developer, what specific area do you like in programming (Web development, ML, AI, Mobile app development, etc...). Any projects that you have done or are passionate about in Python or in a different language. Things like that, I don't mind talking in voice either.

[smoky quest]

• Yeah, grind leetcode X weeks before your interviews
• Read and refresh on DSA
• I wouldn't expect much from an intern/entry level, but some may ask you system level design
• Clean up your projects in github/gitlab and prepare yourself to be asked questions about what and how you did them

[buoyant seal]

By type I was meaning only voice or text xD so feel free to add yourself as long as it will be voice talks
My experience could be a bit diffident from regular situation in your country though.
Local country markets are different a bit country to country.
Or they probably even different just by company type.

[small spoke]

omg I thought you meant what I was gonna talk about 😭

[small spoke]

thank you, thank you!

[vapid jay]

what is a help for pytohn ? the channel ?

[balmy spade]

#❓｜how-to-get-help explains how the help room system works and points you to the available channels to claim one.

[toxic venture]

Any advice or resources you can give for someone interviewing for Integration Engineer position?

[vapid jay]

why did he ping me

[dense mesa]

This channel is for career discussion

[vapid jay]

maybe you're for career disucssion

[smoky quest]

That's exactly why we are all in this channel

[vapid jay]

not me tho

[smoky quest]

You do need to adhere to this server's #code-of-conduct . That will improve your experience here and generate more friendly and interesting discussions

[peak halo]

this is the kind of response we'd expect from a ten year old. we're not anti-fun, but if you're going to make ridiculous comments in topical channels, you should look for a community that accommodates that kind of behavior.

[balmy spade]

The usual to start: Get good sleep, eat a breakfast, stay hydrated, make sure you are presentable.

For the position, if the title is any give-away, I'd expect the interview to include questions about random situations, requests, or processes and how you'd solve them. The goal, usually, not being getting a solution but seeing how you think and react to the unknown. Just take the questions as they come, be open in your thoughts, ask questions on anything you are unsure about, and be open to the discussion.

[toxic venture]

Thank you! This was very helpful

[balmy spade]

It's always tricky to gauge a specific interview because they can vary widely. The general patterns are the same. First impression (look presentable, smile). Small talk/introductions. Tell us about yourself. Tell us how you'd [insert relevant situation here]. Questions and more questions.

[vapid jay]

how many nomroe moe more striked strikes until im out

[peak halo]

You can DM @severe widget if you have any questions about how we moderate.

[vapid jay]

done

[toxic venture]

True true. I agree with that pattern being same but since this was something different from what I do I just was a little curious hehe. I'm not very good at interviews so going to take your advice carefully and add to my prep!

[smoky quest]

Do more interviews. Practice makes perfect

[balmy spade]

Basically.

[smoky quest]

(it will also make them feel like not such a big deal anymore)

[toxic venture]

Hey! Like your name! 🙂

[balmy spade]

While I certainly hope you don't have many before finding that job, take each interview as a learning experience while you go. First, it is a learning experience. Second, it can help take the motivation drop away on the ones that don't pan out.

[true harness]

when the application has "What is the name of your current or most recent employer?" as a required question but you've never had a job 😬. do i just put "N/A"

[smoky quest]

yep

[toxic venture]

How would you handle a "bad" interview? I had one last week and I did not take it well. I was demoralized and demotivated afterwards but I know it should be the opposite.

[toxic venture]

Can always put "You're my future employer"...right?

[balmy spade]

Personally? I handled my bad interview the way I learned to handle the sales that never closed. One more interview that didn't land me a job was one interview closer to the job I wanted!

What @smoky quest says is true too. I've interviewed and been interviewed a lot. By the time I got around to my current position and the interview that got me in, I was the most comfortable one in the room!

[smoky quest]

Do a retrospective / post mortem and remember it's not a reflection of your worth. It's like relationships: it sucks when it doesn't work out, but it could happen even to two great people. Another way to look at it is like a sales job. They didn't like your sales pitch. That's ok and a signal you need to improve your sales funnel.
In terms of retro:

• What went well?
• What didn't go so well?
• Would you have hired yourself with that performance?
• What are the action items for the next interview?

[balmy spade]

And there's the second half to my answer wonderfully spelled out.

[smoky quest]

It's comparable to public speaking too. The first time you are gonna be mortified. By the fifth time you will feel better and by the tenth time, you won't even care

[balmy spade]

True from my experience! You also get better with answers. The first time I was asked "What's something you've done that you are proud of?" I stammered for five minutes.
The last time I was asked, I had the moment already in my head, felt the passion, and sold the answer.

[true harness]

the application requires an answer to "If not currently employed, what was your last working date?", and it forces me to put a date (can't put "N/A"). what should i put 😔

[smoky quest]

realistically, it won't matter. It's just a form that gets recorded in your profile

[toxic venture]

Wow fully noted @balmy spade @smoky quest. Let's see how it goes. Have another one next week so going to make sure I'm more prepared than the last time

[smoky quest]

also read up on growth mindset

failing is not the problem. It's how you deal with it that matters

[toxic venture]

Ahh yes that's something I need to greatly work on unfortunately. Here's to growing!

[balmy spade]

Do you have a book recommendation? I'm curious if it matches mine. :3

[toxic venture]

Thank you both. I really appreciate it 🙏

[toxic venture]

Lol I was just gonna Google but if there's a book then I'd be interested!

[smoky quest]

not really. I would welcome suggestions though

[toxic venture]

I think in some applications you can remove work experience block. Not sure if the job you're applying to has that

[balmy spade]

Mindet: The New Psychology of Success by Carol Dweck

Last one I read. Great book.

[toxic venture]

Just placed the order lol

[vapid jay]

dude, you could get it online

[dense mesa]

Some people prefer having a physical copy of a book

[vapid jay]

my friend, would you rather pay for a book or get exactly the same copy for free

[smoky quest]

We do not support breaking laws and piracy. No one wins in the end

[twilit gull]

hey who knows how to code python 3?

[vapid jay]

i didn't break anything bruh.

just get an online version of the book, on legal websites

[true harness]

lots of people, see #python-discussion . this channel is for discussing careers @twilit gull

[dense mesa]

Supporting the author and having something on hand is better

[smoky quest]

how can you do that without breaking any law or pirating the content of the book?

[vapid jay]

have you heard of open library?

[smoky quest]

nope I did not

[vapid jay]

free books, no laws broken

you'd be a fool not to read it on there

[true harness]

maybe the value of the physical book is more worth it than the cost of the book

[twilit gull]

oh okay sorry

[smoky quest]

I stand corrected then.
They seem to use an interesting trick.

[vapid jay]

you're waffling mate

[vapid jay]

indeed, loads of stuff on there. and there's other services too. prity nifty if you ask me

[balmy spade]

We've strayed from the topic of this room. If you want to continue the value of a book discussion, please move it to an off-topic channel.

[crystal mason]

What do you mean by that?

[near ocean]

it means go and have fun as a 15 year old, study, build things, dont worry about the workplace, its soulless and probably inaccessible to you at the moment

[crystal mason]

I'm sorry, this may be stupid. But what do you mean by build things.

[true harness]

code cool things

[pastel thunder]

I am very disappointed by the response i am getting from professors.
Literally noone is ready to guide me in research project for summer.
I heard people said its easy, but no, i have sent 150 email....had conversations with some, had many replies, but not even a single one is positive.

What to do?
I have tried bulk email/butter email/personalized email/emotional emal .....lmao

+some optimistic ones too

Getting a job is easier then this

[delicate bane]

honestly, im surprised any prof would be willing to accept a student that isnt at their own university / knows them personally. its a lot of risk especially if you dont have previous publication experience

[small spoke]

do you have a high gpa, i'd assume for a research project professor would want someone with a high gpa

[delicate bane]

sorry if this is us-centric, but i found this interesting to see

what they dont mention explicitly (its in the fine print) is that they are including engineering in this "tech" definition, so that probably skews it a bit

as someone who is possibly considering one of these cities, this may or may not be a good thing depending on your perspective i guess

[split oasis]

I love san diego

[delicate bane]

oh yeah?

[split oasis]

yeah! it's the most normal city I've been to... and the weather is never extreme... just perfect

oh and you can walk to Mexico 😂

[delicate bane]

bruh

[thick abyss]

saw this on reddit and i absolutely love it

[split oasis]

it just means they will be focusing more on experience

[balmy spade]

We're still riddle solvers. The riddles are just our stakeholders, challenges of team work, and daily needs.

I feel like adding that I don't believe this should discredit those that put the effort in to be really good at riddle solving logic. Being able to navigate those waters with speed and ease does, in fact, make you a valuable player on your team given an application that needs it. It's also a lot of hard work, so it should be recognized as such.

[thick abyss]

I agree, at the end of the day it's about solving riddles and reaching objectives, I respect the importance of data structures and algos

but there are many pleasant personalities, such wonderful and ambitious people ready, willing, and able to put in the work and adapt to the job's requirements; a 3-hour crash course on a weekend would bring them up to speed.

i love interviewers where you get to build a component or work on actual something you'd deal with on day to day basis, it shows you the true nature of people, how they deal with stress, do they let it consume them or they accept it and let go; are they clear from within, or are they hard to work with, the human psyche is the biggest investment imo, and the most beautiful system of all

tldr; as an interviewer, i need to know how you manage your brain & complex emotional system, everything else falls into place because how you do one thing is how you do everything :D

[smoky quest]

We aren't really talking about anything that requires a 3h crash course though. That wouldn't even register on the radar.

In practice, there would also be quite a few logistical issues, especially as the number of candidates increase or the lack of willingness from candidates to go to such an extensive effort for an interview

[thick abyss]

We aren't? 👀
The first rejection feedback I ever got said I didn't seem authentic enough, they said I made it seem like I knew more than I actually know, inflating my knowledge, etc. but in reality I was nervous, stressed and my mind was occupied with uncertainty and all them things I had to memorize to pass

and in the reality I was living, I told myself ah crap, I ruined the interview already by messing up the fizzbuzz stuff, so when its time to talk about actual problems and how I solve them, my passions and the things I get excited about, the vibe was already off

[smoky quest]

Nope, we aren't. The rule of thumb is it takes ~ 6months for someone to be fully operational. so 3h is nothing. For the same reason, accepting someone because they didn't know the language itself in use (ex: python vs c# vs java) has never been an issue for me or folks in my network

[smoky quest]

I would interpret that type of feedback as them telling you that you wrote some checks you could not cash. But I was not there and can't comment on the specifics. Sometimes interviews fail also because the interviewer is an idiot or in a bad mood and there is nothing we can do about that

[thick abyss]

totally agree, I think we're more on the topic of people who do really well in coding interviews but they are terrible people to work with, recalibrating the priority/importance of fuzzbuzz for the sake of healthy psyche

that's what I would focus on when hiring, an agreeable person that has his mental health together and is pleasant to work with, problems will be easier to solve.

[smoky quest]

I would expect people that are terrible to work with to also fail the interview at some points. That's why there are behavioral questions in general

Nice but useless people are also not desirable 😉

[thick abyss]

I wish some of the companies I worked for had behavioral questions

[smoky quest]

It's also fair to not go forward with companies that do not give you a good vibe.
Candidates are interviewing the companies as much as the company is interviewing them

[pastel thunder]

I have a 8/10gpa.
My university is cruel to to give marks
WES evaluation of atudent at my university converta 7/10 to 3.32....you many understand what is the scene.
Also the branch topper is sitting at 8.7

[small spoke]

that might be a reason, have you tried reaching out to people that did get research position at your uni?

[pastel thunder]

Only 2, i know of, one was topper with 8.7
Other got it through programme

But i know many who have got by cold email

[small spoke]

if your close with the person you ask them to refer yourself to the prof

2 is more than enough, learn what they did and gain advice from what they did

[rose solstice]

What are some computer Paths that one can self learn

me knows the vague ones like programming and ads and stuff

but like specific ones like blockchain or web front back or full or mobile , like these, what are some paths ?

[near ocean]

the easiest ones to self teach are web related, frontend being the easiest of that bunch in my opinion
you can look at https://roadmap.sh/ for roadmaps, they have 10 of them currently

[buoyant seal]

There is a choice by platform target: web, desktop (windows/Linux/macOS), mobile(Android/iOS), microcontrollers.

There is a choice by technology specialization: data science/machine learning, crypto/Blockchain stuff

Web devs are having frontend/Backend/DevOps specialisations.

Some specialisations are generic like: software engineer, or software architect

This is all like Pokémon evolution
Person can start as
Software engineer -> evolve into backend Dev -> evolve into software architect if wishes

Linux fan -> system administrator/software engineer -> evolve into devops engineer and SRE

Mathematician -> evolve into data scientist -> evolve into machine learning

DevOps engineer can evolve into MLOps and DevSecOps

Software engineer -> can evolve into cyber security -> which can evolve into DevSecOps

Software engineer -> Mobile/desktop devs -> Generic highest evolutions of software engineer (e.g. Software architect)
There is dead end QA -> A serious effort could allow to jump out of it to somewhere else
HTML/CSS Layout maker - > evolves into Frontend developer -> Which can become fullstack developer
Backend dev - > can evolve into fullstack too if wishes
Also there is its own ladder for administrative positions like Project Managers, not sure about how they are all correlated to each other yet.

Oh, here is another pokemon tree of evolutions, more oriented to all kind of analytics

[gloomy plaza]

can i do BCA or BCS with commerce with optinal subject Computer Science in 12 and will doing course "Math for Conputer Science" will help me any way to get in college in Canda

[vapid jay]

Hi everyone. I got an internship offer but they lost funding for it. So i will graduate with no internships. Is it that big of a deal or will i do perfectly fine. I would say im perfectly competent otherwise.

[near remnant]

If I'm passed the technical interview for an internship and I will only have the final interview which will be about my contract and legal stuff, etc. Does it mean that I got the internship? They said this final interview is just "formality" and just checking my motivation, etc.

[near ocean]

you shouldnt assume or plan anything around it until you have a signed contract from them
there's nothing keeping them from not giving you the internship at the last moment

[near remnant]

that's true

[brazen trail]

I was just gonna post a wikipedia link to a list of software topics, but I like the pokemon stuff

[near remnant]

I'm just assuming i got it bcus the team leader was telling me that "when I will going to work with them..." and told me to look up some stuff before starting working there to get familiar with the stack

[brazen trail]

I've never had an internship and I'm doing fine

if you want to show future employers that you have experience working with teams, you could contribute to some open source projects

[proud plank]

if I plan to apply for a python job, can it benefit to show your github profile and which repositories you have contributed to/written?

[plush spindle]

Yes, always link your github account

[lilac pumice]

For sure. Sometimes they don't care, but it is a easy way to people look about your previous works and get a better understanding on your skills

[cedar sky]

I just learned python as my first programming language
For data structures understanding many is suggesting to learn C,C++ and Java
What should I do next for placement

[lilac pumice]

What career are you looking for?

[cedar sky]

Web and Android development

[lilac pumice]

I can't say much about it. But what I usually recommend is to go deeper in the language that you've knowledge and only after you have a few projects in hands, Start to learn a new language to deeper knowledge

[cedar sky]

Presently I have some understanding about python, not very deep. For good coding practice I think I need to know data structures and algorithms.

[lilac pumice]

Yes, for sure. The best way to do that, is to build something, initially with a tutorial, them by yourself

[cedar sky]

Thanks for your support 🙂

[gritty rivet]

For web, JavaScript is a must.

I mean, unless you want to be a pure backend guy like I am currently 🙂

[cedar sky]

Actually I'm an electrical engineer. For some personal interest and problems with my previous job role, I left my job. And trying to develop my skills to become a Web & Android developer. Guide is needed although I'm a newbie in this field.

[peak halo]

@grave canopy see #❓｜how-to-get-help. also your picture was sideways.

[delicate bane]

and even then...sometimes offers get rescinded as we have seen so far

[vapid jay]

Hey guys 👀 I'm totally new here, could someone help me with my doubts? 👀

[near ocean]

sure, do you have careers related questions?

[delicate bane]

why do people say doubts when they mean questions? is this a language thing

[near ocean]

looks like it

[delicate bane]

just something ive noticed, interesting

[gilded valley]

"am I good enough?" is a question that comes with an implicit doubt. I think generally it's because people are uncertain about themselves or their ability hence the questions to resolve whether that doubt is justified or not

[delicate bane]

[true harness]

i'm pretty sure it's a language/culture thing. it could just be that that's how it's transliterated into english

[delicate bane]

that would make sense

[near ocean]

anyway
what's the minimum salary bump you would need to leave your current job? percentage or flat rate (pls include current comp if percentage)

assuming similar work environments and other benefits

[delicate bane]

i am also interested in this question

my current situation doesnt count since im an intern atm

[vapid jay]

I didn't know my single sentence, "help me with my doubts", could start a debate here 👀

Anyway, I'm sorry I don't get the notifications, so I'm replying late

[delicate bane]

dw about it bud. just answer the original question mariosis asked you

[near ocean]

i was talking to some recruiter dude yesterday and I gave him my WFH days to schedule an interview or two
my gf was mad that i didn't bend around their schedule, saying that the salary was much higher than my current, i don't see it tbh, i would think hard before i quit my job for this other one

[lone ruin]

Hi, I'm always curious about this question. Whats the difference between data analysts and data scientists? Or are they the same?

[gilded valley]

50% - I'm still early in my career though

[analog sun]

Assuming its in a different location and is not remote: with the way housing is, I would need a 30-50% bump probably to go through all of that hassle of selling and buying a house

[vapid jay]

Tbh, I'm just 17 rn. And I just need an advice related to programming. I mean, how good is coding for career?

[near ocean]

as it happens, this is a 50% raise, from 30 to 45

[gilded valley]

thinking about it - I don't htink % is actually a fantastic lens to look at it through

Future employers don't know your current salary, I think you should just try to have a picture of the average value of an engineer with N years of experience, and target that

e.g, assuming you have 1y experience and can handle an interview, I'd be looking for 50k+

for reference, I graduated <1y ago, and am on 47k TC and feel I could be on more than that with my current skillset
(uk, which IIRC you are as well)

[near ocean]

right now i have 10months and i hate interviewing but i've been looking for something around 50-60k
i really dont know if im overestimating my worth or not

[delicate bane]

i dont think your gf was right to be mad; she needs to chill a bit, since recruiters know working professionals are busy - that's why they always ask for availability

[gilded valley]

no, I think that's perfectly within reach. With the caveat that we're entering a recession or depression, so stability comes at a premium at the moment and might be worth taking a salary hit for

[near ocean]

she wanted me to move my WFH days to accommodate the interviewer, but I feel like it's not that big a deal and don't really care that much if they say no, its a 45k job lol

[vapid jay]

Would anyone reply to my text? 👀

[delicate bane]

you should try coding first to see if you like it; otherwise, it will be an uphill battle if your pursue this career path

[gilded valley]

it's somewhat depressing that the headline amount on what is a pretty reasonable salary is < the bottom 10% salary for a software developer in the US

[near ocean]

also blood red flag if they cant accommodate my wfh days lmao, its part of their job description to interview me, im doing it off the clock on my lunch

[honest pivot]

I would say around 50% as well, plus flat cost of living difference if moving to a more expensive city

[vapid jay]

I've heard coding is one of the most necessary skills to have in this new age, moreover the coding related jobs pay well. I'm learning python and it's a bit fun. What should be a really good roadmap to programming besides learning a language?

[near ocean]

3ish (2.5 responses) for 50% but how much do you currently earn? 50% more on 100k is a different story than 50% on 25k

[delicate bane]

exactly

[delicate bane]

you should try to make some projects and explore further

[true harness]

roadmap.sh is pretty good

[delicate bane]

hmm idk if people are comfortable sharing exact salaries here. also i have my own comments if a SO tried to dictate my work life like that but thats OT for this channel/dependent on one's own relationships

[near ocean]

she means well but i dont care to bend over backwards for some HR dude

[delicate bane]

yeah, i would feel the same way

[vapid jay]

Thank you for your suggestions!

[dense mesa]

Undergrad finally over 👍

[dense mesa]

It's a thing I've seen a lot of people from India say

[peak halo]

yes, it's part of Indian English. it might be that "question" uses syllables that aren't used in Indian languages.

[fleet forge]

This might seem like a dumb question but, I'm a newbie;
How do companies verify your 3+ years of experience in Python, Django, etc.
What stops me from applying and saying I have 3 years of experience?
Can I just write 3 years of experience on my resume?

[near ocean]

theyre going to grill you about them in the interview and possibly ask for references

[fleet forge]

So they mean professional experience in a job position that utilizes those technologies?

[near ocean]

yes

[fleet forge]

How does GitHub factor into this?

[near ocean]

it doesnt, GitHub shows your interests outside of work, everyone needs work to support themselves but if your interests align with your work it looks better for you

tho i guess you could have work on github
freelance projects, other open source things you might do that's not necessarily a hobby

[delicate bane]

@dense mesa @peak halo interesting, interesting. that would make sense

[fleet forge]

I see
Thank you

In conclusion then, I need work experience to gain work experience for the entry-level job, correct?

[true harness]

no, that would be absurd

[lilac pumice]

A entry level job, normally, would not ask you for previous work XP. They for certain, will require to have a knowledge about specific tools

This is why it is called - entry level job

[fleet forge]

Tell that to companies in my area asking for entry-level with 1 year of experience.

[lilac pumice]

Yeah, that is weird. BUT! In my humble opinion. If you do get experience even not in a official pay job with the required skills. You probably would get the job

I got my first job like these. No previous work exp. but I was working' with the tools for more then an year

And for me, if you have a good GitHub as proof... that could help as well.

[near ocean]

Theres plenty of jobs out there that don't ask for any experience

[fleet forge]

Please specify where.
I don't mean this sarcastically, I am actually interested.

[lilac pumice]

I don't know where you from, but, did you extensively looked at LinkedIn?

[near ocean]

On any job board you use, indeed, linkedin, etc

[fleet forge]

Nigeria

[lilac pumice]

Take a look on LinkedIn. And another advice? Look a position, find the person responsible for it, dig a little bit about the company... and send a message to them

[near ocean]

Idk about bothering random employees, maybe only message company HR/recruiters

[gilded magnet]

Amount of jokes that could be said rn

[dense mesa]

<@&831776746206265384>

[lilac pumice]

Yeah, exactly, this is what I mean by person responsible for the position

[gilded magnet]

mate i didnt say that there could be racist jokes

[frozen flame]

HackerRank challenges are super fun, just found them out - are they really useful when you're going to interview ?

[balmy spade]

I don't think any jokes need to be made. :) Let's keep the room on topic please.

[fleet forge]

Lol, I know

[dense mesa]

No one said that, don't joke about people's countries man

[gilded magnet]

ah mate u aint got any sense of humor

[lilac pumice]

hmm... Very hard to say. Of course they will help you to get more knowledge... But each interview is a surprise

[lilac pumice]

You know all this stuff?

[fleet forge]

No, it's the 2+ years of experience part

[near ocean]

Thats not entry level, its just a bad label

[lilac pumice]

agree hahaha

[gilded magnet]

😳

[frozen flame]

True indeed, so probably worth it to run through them casually but be ready for whatever they throw at ya. I guess my question is: are the challenges similar to what an interviewer might ask?

[fleet forge]

A lot of jobs are like that

[lilac pumice]

And we have a lot of bad labeled jobs... this is a reallity.

[frozen flame]

Job description writers are wild with their idea of "entry level" sometimes haha

[near ocean]

Yea well nobody said it'd be easy

[dense mesa]

Yeah it's usually what HR/talent acquisition thinks is needed

[near ocean]

Entry level is probably default and they don't bother changing it

[lilac pumice]

Sometimes yes. For example, in my case. As a Data Scientist. I studied a lot, and did some tests like the ones you did, they helped me on my interview... Not the same questions.

[frozen flame]

Ok def makes sense, thank you !

[fleet forge]

It never stops

[near ocean]

Stop looking at the level field and just look at the description

[true harness]

you can probably just apply

[lilac pumice]

I was just say that... look for the description, if you know the requirements, Just apply to it

[fleet forge]

I don't understand, guys

[near ocean]

The requirements also are not set in stone, if you fit a couple then just apply

[fleet forge]

Oh, I didn't know that

[true harness]

the "requirements" are like a wishlist. if someone has enough for them to be satisfied, they'll hire that person

[lilac pumice]

You will not be a perfect fit for all jobs, sometimes you will be missing something. Just look at one that you are confortable with, and know something

[lilac pumice]

wish, or dream lists right hahaha

[frozen flame]

this is my favorite example:

[lilac pumice]

I Love this one! ahahahahaha 😄

[fleet forge]

Lol
I see now.
Thanks, guys.
I only know some Python, Linux, and HTML

[frozen flame]

lol right - def good advice to just go for it if you fit enough of the requirements

[fleet forge]

I'll give it a shot

[lilac pumice]

Good luck!

[near ocean]

Maybe you should do some more learning

[delicate bane]

sebastian is great; his content is also always top notch

[peak halo]

I think this is great. In the part that you've removed, does it have a reference to your github? (bonus if it's clickable)

[open swallow]

Yeah it does, as well as my email and phone number

Sadly response rate for this summer and fall sucked despite having a bit of prior experience :/

[peak halo]

sorry to hear that. my understanding is that first year students don't usually get internships during their first summer.

is your GPA above 3? if so, I would include it.

[true harness]

i was told clickable links would get flagged by security, and should be avoided

[peak halo]

if that's true, then don't, I guess.

[open swallow]

Yeah it's 3.2 and I'm in second year, although the internship I have on resume I got after my first year lol, I will add the GPA

[peak halo]

ah, right, I wasn't thinking. :/

[open swallow]

Most Toronto postings on LinkedIn usually have over 300 applicants, competition for internships is insane here

Frick I just realized I have a duplicated bullet point in Twitter and G Drive projects, not sure how I missed it

[delicate bane]

really? ive heard opposite advice to use links, but i guess it depends on the ATS system the company is using

[delicate bane]

have you considered remote opportunities? your internship exp def makes you competitive, but the fact that youre only a 2nd year def also brings you down

i would avoid the 150+ applicant ones for sure lol

[open swallow]

Yeah I have been applying everywhere, Canada/US/remote

Just internships though as I'm still in school, not sure if I can apply to jr. developer roles even though they do hire people sometimes without any schooling

[delicate bane]

can you also apply the bold formatting that you did for under "Experience" to "Projects" ?

[open swallow]

Will do that but I did bolden the stack on right hand side of project name

[delicate bane]

yeah i saw that but i think both would be good as long as you dont go overboard

[open swallow]

Any thoughts on this?

[delicate bane]

i think another thing to consider is maybe your resume is a bit too broad and companies are looking for more specific skills? at least that is my initial impression

but i will let others who have more experience speak up

no wait, reading this again your experience seems pretty good. hmm im not sure bud @open swallow

how many positions have you applied to?

[open swallow]

Honestly I haven't kept track but I'm guessing like 60-70

I have gotten few OAs but I suck ass at leetcode so pretty sure that's the reason why I never got to interview stage

[delicate bane]

it took me hundreds before i got my current internship but mine may be slightly more competitive since it is DS

[open swallow]

Ah, I see, just trying to grind LC atm

[open swallow]

DS?

[delicate bane]

yeah i would do alternate that and keep applying for more internships bud

[delicate bane]

data science. i guess my summer one rn is more ML engineering but my previous spring internship was DS

[pastel thunder]

just when i when i was saying i dont get positive email reply

i got one lmao

[coarse crag]

nicee 👍

[pastel thunder]

even though it was from gsu i definately think i can get from cmu noww.......lmao

[coarse crag]

oooh

[narrow owl]

is there anyone willing to take a look at my resume? (in dms ofc)
looking for constructive feedback

[smoky quest]

if you post it here (anonymized), there would be multiple people willing to provide feedback

[narrow owl]

is that allowed?

[peak halo]

yes

[narrow owl]

note: i've noticed that the word "tutoring" is cut off on the right side, easy fix

oh and some context

im a sophomore compsci student

and my GPA is garbage so i left it out

[smoky quest]

• Looks clean overall
• I would recommend to avoid multi-column formats. They aren't parsed well
• I would put your education / bs degree more to the forefront as it's still important. As is, I almost missed it
• Tutoring -> I would like to get a sense to the complexity of the topics you teach (ex: basics of python vs complex subjets)
• Internship -> was there a project or were these just random tasks? Any information of the complexity/size/impact?
• Freelancing -> any information about the nature/complexity of the projects? As is, it sounds too much like "I did things"
• Your project Tau is marked as "2019-present" but the last commit was almost a year ago. Also the project could use some clean up to match expected standards for python projects. But it's great to see a readme and a license!
• Typo in the STEM under organization

[narrow owl]

tutoring: i've been working the job for 1 week so far, im a new hire. it's a variety between basics and intermediate level stuff
internship: random tasks, and mostly i didnt contribute to anything it was just educational stuff
freelancing: most of it is making fairly complex discord bots
tau: i'm currently working on an overhaul for it. since im the only maintainer i havent been doing regular commits.
typo: its not a typo, oSTEM is an organization https://www.ostem.org/

also, what standards for python projects are you referring to?

[narrow owl]

(for the information given, it's hard to put those into meaningful bullet points)
its why they're so vague

thats where im struggling most

[smoky quest]

oh I didn't know for oSTEM. Maybe change the typography or any way to make look less confusing?
The main feedback across your experiences is they describe a bit too vaguely what you did without giving more context. Like you said "managing databases". Great! But what does that mean? How big was it? How many? What cool thing can you tell me about it?

[narrow owl]

hmmm

[smoky quest]

I don't have a link handy and am not the best person for that as python isn't my primary language. But I would expect some things like not being in the root directory, having some requirement/poetry/pipenv management for dependencies (depn.txt is not something people would expect), tests, etc.

[narrow owl]

i see. thank you for the input, its much appreciated. is there anything else?

[smoky quest]

these are the main notes I would make

[livid moat]

.bm

[pulsar drum]

I'm curious how you created this. Is it a template or something of your own?

[narrow owl]

i made it on my own

ive made a few and gotten familiar with MS Word's graphical stuff. also the entire resume is inside of a Table

[pulsar drum]

Didn't expect MS Word. It looks nice. I like the purple. Though I do think the text in those purple pills looks a bit too squeezed in.

[near ocean]

Here's one of them ads i was talking about, this is entry level
near 200 applicants on linkedin

[narrow owl]

should i make the purple boxes a bit bigger?
or the text smaller

[pulsar drum]

Either that or make the text slightly smaller. Try both and see which one looks better.

[narrow owl]

oki doke

[novel pine]

Slight nitpick but having your GitHub name being emisdumb might not be the best thing to have on your resume.

[split oasis]

😂 but it's genius

[delicate bane]

depends on your country/local market

[delicate bane]

i had to change my github username too...

[vapid jay]

stop talking

[true harness]

i changed my github away from "SavagePastaMan" 😔

[smoky quest]

It's not impossible, but not very plausible

Why not aiming for a CS degree?

[delicate bane]

cant say mine but the advisor said it was unprofessional

i thought it was fitting imo

[smoky quest]

what's stopping you from saying it here?

[delicate bane]

hmm possibly peeps finding me maybe

[smoky quest]

fair enough

[delicate bane]

my cybersec class has made me marginally more paranoid than my usual naive self

[daring mason]

my code just worked and i put it together like trail mix from stack overflow
is this what it's like*

to be a programmer? am i doing it

[smoky quest]

there is a lot more to it than what the memes imply 😉

[daring mason]

im sure but as a total newb working on a first project its nice to make progress

[daring mason]

selenium is amazing

[daring mason]

youre right

[smoky quest]

Ah I thought you were asking a serious question about career.
Indeed, learning programming is great!

[daring mason]

i think i picked the wrong section but the topic is serious

[native narwhal]

I was looking at some job interviews and they straight up ask candidates to have answers by hard and not letting them google anything lol
One dude was calm till the end of the interview and in the and said
-Are you the CTO? I have 2 questions for you and if you answer them without google only then I will respect you if you hire me.
The "CTO" straight up disconnected 😄 what the hell
btw they were from a local company that does vue/laravel stuff and bunch of guys applied and recorded the interview cuz its ridiculous

[vapid jay]

Nice 👍

[smoky quest]

Sounds like an interesting character.
But two notes:

• Playing the devil's advocate, asking questions that are about either you know the answer or not, that won't teach much about the candidate other than whether they know about that specific question or not
• Recording people may or may not be illegal depending on the locations. It may also be poor taste to record someone to make fun of them (as tempting as it may be)

[native narwhal]

Yeah its a new company that probably has no experience in hiring/onboarding/interviewing etc
also in my country job transparency laws are all over the place you are allowed to share your package deal info and record your interview for full transparency if in the future a court requires the recording of the verbal contract etc

[smoky quest]

which country is that?

[native narwhal]

I can't tell but in Europe

[smoky quest]

that would be odd for a continental european country. But thanks! Interesting

[native narwhal]

Yep and also companies are obliged to state salary or package details when posting jobs too its one of those new laws that are European Union wide not just my country

[pastel junco]

Some people said that in computer science, your carreer will be mostly just learning learning learning. Whereas in fire-tech you don't need to put much effort and salary is high all time.
In future I want to open my own ROI service agency. Will CS make it harder for me?

[smoky quest]

• It's comparing apples to oranges
• There are many factors that will be part of your ROI, namely luck, how much you are interested in it, etc.
• People who are trying to be lazy or minimize their efforts will very rarely be successful. So trying to base your decision on the least amount of things you will have to learn or work for is a bad start
• I don't buy that part about finance. Finance from 10-15-20 years ago look very different from the one today

[pastel junco]

Tbh I'm overwhelmed as I have so much options. I'm learning python for financial support to my family. But as a fact there are so many opportunities out there one maybe better than other and i don't want leave any good carreer making idea.
I was thinking that there is so much competition in cs that i should go for other things and that's where I found out about fire-tech.

[smoky quest]

There will always be competition for rare and desirable things

[pastel junco]

So how can i get internship with python only?

[smoky quest]

you won't

Work through it backward: why do people go through internship? What problem does it solve? Who goes through it?

[pastel junco]

To gain experience?

[smoky quest]

Just knowing python is a useful but not sufficient condition

[pastel junco]

Should I learn C#

[smoky quest]

your question amount to "should I learn to use excel to get an internship in finance?"

Internships are there to discover the world of the enterprise and give a taste of the corporate world and build some real world hands on experience. So to that end, they will mostly target students

So now, the question would be: what's your current situation?

[pastel junco]

I'm in high school (15yo). I'm learning python through udemy. As I said I'm not in a good financial condition. I see ROI service as in an opportunity. My first step to it is to acquire a skill. That's why I was asking about languages.

[smoky quest]

The best outcome would be for you to find a way to go through college/university for a BS. Without a BS, people won't hesitate to pay you half just because they can. Plus the difficulty to put your foot in the door
So while it's not great you have to worry about these things at your age, I would recommend to take your time to evaluate different budgets and options. For instance:

• Grants and other state support
• Community colleges
• Student loans
• Part time jobs

(assuming you want to pursue CS)

[native narwhal]

wait does your ROI means what I think it means ( Return Of Investment ) ?

[pastel junco]

Yep anything from facebook/google ads to marketing automation.

[smoky quest]

a HS graduate doing multiple times the median income without education nor experience? See https://liheapch.acf.hhs.gov/profiles/povertytables/FY2022/casmi.htm

[pastel junco]

Alright

[smoky quest]

yeah, not saying it's impossible as I am sure there are some exceptional cases, but they they do remain exceptional

I have met a few, and tbh, you would know

Realistically, that would require you to be way beyond that

you would know you are

[hybrid quiver]

How did you guys learn to code

[smoky quest]

it's a start. But short of going into games, that wouldn't really be that relevant

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
This channel is dedicated to #career-advice . You should check out #❓｜how-to-get-help if you want to learn python

You can see some of the skills on https://roadmap.sh/

[hybrid quiver]

How long does it take a beginner to learn enough to pass a technical interview

[smoky quest]

But again, that's a long shot

[smoky quest]

multiple months to years depending on the starting point, target and role

[hybrid quiver]

Complete beginner. To entry level job

[smoky quest]

yearS

[hybrid quiver]

Damn

[smoky quest]

What's your situation? Why not aiming for a CS degree?

[hybrid quiver]

How do kids learn it in college that fast

[smoky quest]

I can't promise anything, but that would get you closer

[smoky quest]

college is typically 3-5 years

[hybrid quiver]

I bought a few online courses a while ago and only learned a bit of html and css and got bored. It will be unreasonable to learn enough to get a job in programming if i dont got a degree right?

[smoky quest]

also, on the creative side, you could try to work on some open source project that a company works on. That could be a way to get some attention. But that's pretty creative and totally depend on the project/company/etc.

[smoky quest]

without a degree, I would totally pay you a lot less for the same job, because I can

[hybrid quiver]

I got a degree. Just not cs

[smoky quest]

Not even considering how it would be for you to get an interview in the first place

[smoky quest]

how close to CS? And then what's the motivation to go into CS?

[hybrid quiver]

Cuz im wondering if i can get a job in it

[smoky quest]

it's high tech. so there is a certain bar to meet for it

[hybrid quiver]

Basically if someone wants to learn enough for a job they gotta dedicate years to.it right?

[ruby elk]

I mean, did your degree contain programming / stem elements?

[smoky quest]

think about the opposite situation: how hard would it be for me to get a job in your field in which you got your degree?

[ruby elk]

It also depends what level of the job market you’re trying to get into]

[hybrid quiver]

What languages do you guys know

[ruby elk]

Internships are going to have a lower bar than junior dev roles / software eng.which are going to have a lower bar than sr dev’s

[smoky quest]

languages are tools, no different than screwdrivers

[ruby elk]

You can also get “programming” jobs that aren’t explicitly software development

[smoky quest]

you may want to describe better your situation, degree and what you are trying to accomplish.
Otherwise it's gonna be a lot of random information for you and not useful at that

[ruby elk]

If your degree is in finance, for example, you can work on trading algorithms

And then your previous experience ties into the area you’re trying to get into

But yeah, above]

[hybrid quiver]

All i wanna know is how many years of learning does an entry level programmer have

[smoky quest]

it depends

[ruby elk]

Depends on what you qualify as an entry level position

Internship? 1-3 years. Jr. dev? Usually 4-5. Sr. Dev? Usually 6+

[smoky quest]

entry level for QA would also be different from an entry level at google

[ruby elk]

^

[hybrid quiver]

Ok. Lets say you had to teach someone enough programming knowledge to land a job as a developer. How long would it take you

[smoky quest]

that's the exact same question than above and you will get the exact same answer: it depends

[ruby elk]

I mean I can’t teach for shit so it would probably take me ages lol

[hybrid quiver]

Ok then how long will it take someone to learn to make an app like tinder

[smoky quest]

3 years

[ruby elk]

Tinder is developed by a huge team, too

[hybrid quiver]

Isnt 3 years like a cs degree almost?

[smoky quest]

yes

[ruby elk]

It’s not just one person

[hybrid quiver]

You talking about studying everyday?

[ruby elk]

I mean, yeah

[smoky quest]

yes, full time

[hybrid quiver]

Are you guys employed as developers

[smoky quest]

no

[ruby elk]

I’m in research but i do software dev adjacent things

[smoky quest]

also for your problem, have you done a cursory search on craigslist/indeed/linkedin?

(and see my other message about open source projects)

[brazen trail]

I work as a developer, though I'm more of a devops person... it's fun, pays the bills

[hybrid quiver]

Is it best to just be very good at one language or know multiple for your job

[ruby elk]

If you can, try to take an intro programming class at a local community college

See if you like the field first. Then make a decision about a career

[smoky quest]

https://roadmap.sh/ <- it will show you the desired skills for different roles

[ruby elk]

But it also depends on the subfield you want to get into. I use python and c++ a lot but mostly what I do is data analysis

If you wanted to do game dev you would learn completely different languages

Probably c# or something

[brazen trail]

it's good to know a scripting language, and Python fits the bill on that, and luckily other things as well.... imho knowing git is important as well

[ruby elk]

Python is generally a good place to start

[hybrid quiver]

For programming i only know a bit of html and css

I know how to make a very simple.python program

[ruby elk]

I mean, if you want to do web development those are good tools. But yeah I would probably encourage you to take a python class

[brazen trail]

everyone's gotta start somewhere

[smoky quest]

it's a great start and keep at it!
As mentioned by others, there is a lot more to it for an entry level position

[brazen trail]

well it's good you already have a degree

[smoky quest]

That's entirely up to you!
But at the end of the day, it's the law of the market: supply vs demand.
So it comes down to what is your competition and what are the companies interested in your skills and willing to pay for it

[ruby elk]

You dont need to go back to school. You can self study programming, but you want to be diligent

Some people just feel that a formal degree keeps them on track with a set direction

[smoky quest]

@hybrid quiver not cool to delete your messages though

[ruby elk]

And like everyone has said, context is everything so do research into your specific situation and what others have done to transition into the industry

[hybrid quiver]

Are bootcamps comparable to self study

[smoky quest]

it depends.
Some bootcamps are better than others. And some bootcamps are garbage.

[ruby elk]

They definitely help! But again it’s about having direction more than anything. Boot camps are good for pointing you in the right direction of where to study.

[smoky quest]

The type of jobs they give access to is also different

[vapid jay]

What are these little yellow footprints people keep talking about...

I got some dude in a smokey the bear hat yelling at me.

[tall goblet]

Hello, so I studied software engineering and had various experiences in this field. I had multiple interviews and I know how to prepare for a job interview as a software engineer.
For a year now, I've been trying to specialize in AI. I'm studying a master's degree in Data Science and i'm trying to study alone at home and have multiple personal projects. I want to start preparing for job interviews in AI. The problem is I don't know what to expect in this field.
I was used when I was into software to preparing for interviews at big tech by preparing coding interviews and system design interviews. There's plenty of ressources about that on the internet. But now that i'm into AI i've been wondering what do I need to prepare in order to do great at interviews for Machine learning or AI positions? Are coding problems still relevant? how to prepare for system design for AI? what do big tech ask for this kind of positions?
Thank you for your answers, i'm really grateful for being part of this discord community.

[graceful mason]

If you haven't already you should start building a portfolio on a site like kaggle.

[delicate bane]

depends on if youre going for more data science-type roles or ML engineering-type roles. much of the prep for SWE will translate over except youll be asked specific ML questions as well. ML system design is its own animal tbh; i dont have one specific resource for that since its so varied.

[tall goblet]

@graceful mason i am, im just trying to know if coding interviews are relevant in machine learning roles and if its problem solving like for software engineering or is it like we need a model that does this and that

@delicate bane ML engineering roles. So do I need to prep problem solving for interviews or do I focus on the ML part?

[gritty rivet]

I always recommend taking self-study as far as you can before deciding about a formal bootcamp. Some people are really smart and disciplined and focus and can build a successful career through self-study. But my path (and I think this is common) was to take self-study as far as I could until I started to feel a bit stuck. At that point I knew enough from self-study to choose a bootcamp with confidence. If self-study doesn't get you job ready, it will help you decide if you really want to commit to a bootcamp and what exactly you want to get out of one.

[latent oracle]

Recently learned I'm moving to a new role at my job and wont be able to continue working on my big project. I'm the sole developer of it and Python skillsets aren't well developed at my workplace. I feel guilty that the work isn't complete, but my management team said they'd be fine with something that is 85% accurate rather than 100 and idk how to feel about that

[peak halo]

I feel guilty that the work isn't complete
sounds like it was their decision and their loss. have you written documentation for it?

[latent oracle]

There's docs for actually using the script itself, and I've included clear variable names and plenty of comments internally

The intent of the project was to make it so it could be used without me present (my move was anticipated eventually, timing is just not ideal)

Basically my big concern was: The script suggests a bunch of stuff, and 80% of the time the suggestion is the same as the actual business decision at the end of the day. I wanted to include a system for reconciling how things look at the end of the day so that the next's days decisions could be more accurate, but they said they'd cope without for a while

[scarlet harness]

Hi Pythonistas,
I am looking to connect with programmers who are starting to code and wish to solve algoexpert.io problems. If anyone wishes to collaborate and learn please do mention me in this chat guys. So we could connect at the weekends to solve the problems.

[delicate bane]

both

[tall goblet]

thanks

[delicate bane]

sounds like youve done your due diligence and as long as you notify the team you were working with about your concerns, then i think it should be fine

[latent oracle]

I feel similarly, I was just so excited to have this very unique project complete and folks to benefit from it, its rough to leave behind the project that really helped me grow

[delicate bane]

yeah i feel that

[honest pivot]

The timing of necessary change is never perfect

It sounds like you've left behind a useful tool, even if you didn't implement 100% of the features you wanted, and now you're moving on to something (hopefully) bigger and better

[vapid jay]

Hello i am looking for some friends to program with and start a project, i know python already 2 months and check out my github i already had some nice projects but i want to know how it feels to work together and have fun.

[inland blade]

are there any jobs that will hire someone for coding and such before said person turns 18

[surreal mica]

What projects are you trying to do?

[vapid jay]

i am now trying to learn networking

[vapid jay]

i just want to make things for fun

[delicate bane]

check your local labor laws

[livid moat]

check the laws where you live, i can work a part time when i turn 14 here in ontario

[true harness]

well, being allowed to work and actually being hired are different things

[ivory sluice]

i do wonder if a market for "summer coding jobs" for students will open up as programming becomes more and more ... and more popular

[true harness]

probably not for high schoolers though. most of us suck at coding xd

[smoky quest]

The main problem in coding jobs is the time and effort it takes to acquire the context and tooling to ramp up. If something could be packaged up in chunks small enough that they do not require a lot of context or learning, then yeah, and that may be happening more in the freelancer side

[brazen trail]

it took me a few months at my job to even feel comfortable changing anything more than config files

depending on the job, there can be a lot to learn before you start changing code

[dense mesa]

This is an interesting idea and it's related to something I've been considering recently

[gritty rivet]

right, I think the best advice for high schoolers hoping to get a summer job writing code is forget about it, but I'd love to find out I'm wrong

[delicate bane]

theres also summer programs to learn how to write code

so maybe thats more in line for high schoolers

[brazen trail]

summer job fixing people's computers and entertainment setups, cash in hand

[smoky quest]

There are a lot of missed opportunities too.
On the employer side, there are many small interesting projects or ideas I would love to explore. The type of things that aren't high enough on the list to warrant being scheduled on the regular business but would be interesting to look at. But then either it's too much effort to package in independent chunks or it's too much effort working through HR/finance/etc. for an internship slot

[delicate bane]

yeah im basically that intern at my company exploring opportunities from my boss' ideas.

i think at our company, its easier to get interns in various departments, since theres a main internship coordinator, who we are technically all under, but she "doles" out interns depending on various teams' requests

seems like that approach helps the hiring managers out a lot by taking care of the admin stuff

[still pasture]

anyone here studying/studied at ETH Zurich?

[smoky quest]

lol nice!

In my experience, that was the opposite with internship coordinators. They try to centralize everything and start introducing so much red tape and process that sometimes it's easier to get a new head count for a full time person than an intern

Or like last time: they decided to centralize the budget for interns and having the VPs fight for the chunks of the budgets for interns.
In practice that meant that they didn't care enough about having interns and nothing would happen

[urban pagoda]

bill nye your moms a guy

[summer roost]

This channel's topic is careers related to software and Python. Do you have something on-topic to say?

[obtuse talon]

Yeah
I started 12 projects thinking i can do alone
And ended up completing only 1
Team work gives the best result
Agree

[obtuse talon]

I guess freelancing

[obtuse talon]

And thats builds the interest in freelancing not in that particular job which bring down the importance of the job work in market

There is a difference between what called
'Earning money' and 'working hard for passion'
Free lancing comes in 1 st one

[inland wave]

Hello guys!

[tired zodiac]

wsg guys im new here!

I'm going to take cs this year for my college and i don't really love programming and coding but i like working remotely and this job makes a good amount of money. Do you guys think it's a good choice?

[peak halo]

how much would you have to make for a job that you don't enjoy to be worth it to you? what if the only programming jobs that meet your salary expectations don't offer remote work?

no one can really answer these questions for you.

[delicate bane]

there are IT jobs that dont involve much coding out there

[peak halo]

well, those probably won't pay as well as developer positions. and if they require maintaining company hardware, it won't be remote, either.

[delicate bane]

it wont pay as much but you can be like a dba or something