career-advice

[vapid jay]

But old Europe, No insane payments and only 50% remote

[analog lark]

What degree do you need for data science and/or AI?

And is it possible to get in the field without a degree?

[gilded valley]

Not really, no. You need a strong foundation in maths, the python/CS side of things is secondary if you want to become a data scientist

[dense mesa]

Computer science would be the first choice, followed by something like Maths and/or Statistics. Some universities offer Data Science as a standalone degree, which could potentially get you in

[peak halo]

I work in data science/AI, and my degree is in computer science with a data science concentration. It is a very difficult space to break into, and it's pretty much impossible without a degree.

The previous speaker is right that math (in particular prob/stat, linear algebra, and calculus) is more important than programming ability, though a lot of AI code is written only from the perspective of proving the viability of a concept, and is often incomprehensible and difficult to adapt. Being a skilled programmer certainly helps, though.

[edgy ice]

does anyone know if Revature is a scam?

@dim pelicanI watched some videos that went over the "hidden strings" behind Revature.

[smoky quest]

never heard of them, but if something sounds too good to be true, it generally is

[edgy ice]

one of the major concepts to their success was their 2 year contract commitment, they can place you in any job, even if it is not computer science related, and if you break the contract and get hired through someone else you must pay them 35k$

they profit off of the students failures

[smoky quest]

sounds like you got the answer to your question then :p

[edgy ice]

the school is located in texas and you must relocate in order to attend, they pay 8$/hr during training

i was just wondering if their is anyone on here that used them and can attest to all of what i said @smoky quest

since of what i have heard is just from a youtube video

[lament radish]

Hello everyone , I have a Bloomberg interview next month for the Python Developer role. If anyone has been through this, can you please tell me what they'll ? Thank you !!!

[summer roost]

junior level or senior?

[lament radish]

Its junior part time role

[summer roost]

I work for Bloomberg, though I haven't been involved in junior hire interviewing in quite a long time, and I don't know what our current processes are. Last I was involved, the process would have been an initial ~30 minute technical phone screen that wouldn't be too much more involved than fizzbuzz or an easy leetcode question, followed by an in person interview (which might be remote now, or might be in the offices, I'm not sure) where you'd have something like 2 rounds of 1-hour interviews with two different groups, mostly focusing on leetcode or hacker rank type questions.

I believe each of those two 1-hour interviews would be with 2 developers, if I recall correctly.

[lament radish]

Thank you for sharing , I couldnt find any info about this position anywhere .I received today an email saying that the first round would be phone screen 1 hour coding through hackerrank .I need to brush up my coding skills though ,I hope they'll ask easy LC type question .Im still at college but want to start somewhere it seems like a great opportunity 🙂

[true harness]

when you say "phone screen", does this mean an actual phone call? or would this extend to like, zoom or something

[lament radish]

They'll send me a live hackerrank coding link and I believe it will be through phone not zoom or something ,thats what I understood .But the other ones 1:1 with engineers will be through zoom probably.

[summer roost]

I haven't conducted external interviews since before the pandemic, but at that point it was still phone calls. Now that video conferencing tech is more ubiquitous, that might have changed - I really can't speak to the current process at all.

[summer roost]

this sounds like what I would have expected, though - phone for the initial screening, video conference for the more in depth interview.

[dim pelican]

It’s not a scam. They are seen as a scam because they want you to stay with them for 2 years before getting a new job else pay 35k. And apparently they are very upfront about it.

[lament radish]

yeah the process changed after pandemic thats what I heard too .

[summer roost]

not too surprising - a lot of things in the world were pretty shaken up by the pandemic, heh

[lament radish]

definitely !!

[dim pelican]

After training they pay you 45k and a 10-15k raise after one year so 55-60k but that’s only after you’ve been placed.

[summer roost]

for what it's worth, the initial phone screen is 1-1 - just you and one developer.

and it's designed to be pretty easy to pass. It's much less challenging than the actual interview would be

[lament radish]

that sounds good though ,really need to start somewhere and knowing that the level of difficulty is easy LC is great .

[smoky quest]

depends on the company.
But from what I see:

• hr recruiters still prefer phone calls
• manager screening do prefer zoom/meet

[peak halo]

Revature isn't a scam, because they are transparent about how everything works. but the way it works is ridiculous, and no one should agree to it. they obviously know this and are predating desperate young people.

also, the early termination fee is based on the idea that the trainings they have you do have value, but one could argue that if those trainings don't come with some kind of external accreditation (like a degree), they don't have any value, as youtube is free.

I wonder if there are any reports regarding how many revature people complete the two years and how many of those stay with the company at which they were placed for longer than a year thereafter.

[delicate bane]

one of the things ive also heard (not confirmed) is that they can place you anywhere around the country...including not so fun places...

honestly, i dont like it when things are predatory. it makes me experience second-hand discomfort. mostly bc i feel like i am susceptible since i am too trusting of others

[abstract mauve]

I want to earn money but I can't because i don't have a degree or any skill and I am 22
I am studying computer science from my parents money, i don't believe anyone would hire me. I was a bright student in school , i got selected in a good college but i dint had enough money to pay tution so i self studied, i know basic web dev, intermediate python, beginner in dsa, but mainly i work on machine learning and ai projects , primarily computer vision,i have created many projects attended conferences, participated in hackathons , although i need to earn, but i want to go in research and publish my own machine learning paper,but all that but i don't feel like someone would hire me, because i have not created a good resume or a good github profile. I don't know what to do .

[brittle thorn]

Actually hard to trust others once you hab actual experiences in startup land or ebil mega corp land. .

Bring out your lawyer have 'em examine all contracts lmao

[brittle thorn]

Network with your peers and maybe you will get lucky ....it seems you are doing the right stuff already... if nobody will hire you right away...freelance

[smoky quest]

You may want to investigate further finishing your degree, whether through grants, community college or student loan. Especially if you want to go into research.

[vapid jay]

Hello people...

I am a bcom student and i want to enter into coding field... Can you help me in getting started?

[brittle crater]

im doing a career shift to QA, if anyone that works in or worked in the field can dm me, i have some questions and would greatly appreciate it.

[near ocean]

youre shifting to QA? usually i see people try to shift out of QA

[brittle crater]

well, let me fix that statement by saying im not doing a career shift

im changing my plan to go into the career of qa and not engineering, i want to do QA for a year or two and hopefully do projects on the side and apply to be a developer

[near ocean]

why not try to go straight into dev?

[brittle crater]

because I want a job as fast as possible, and QA seems to be a faster option

[pastel thunder]

Some days ago i asked what to refer to research work i did under professors whoom i asked myself to mentor me in the research.....i was thinking referring it as "research internship" on resume is misleading....
But now i have came across numerous people referring the same as "research internship"....can i too refer it in same way......
Is it actually misleading??

[honest pivot]

Were you an undergraduate student? Then it sounds like a reasonable way to describe it

[vague sandal]

i am not english so please respect me . blender is good for pyton ?

[near ocean]

This isnt the channel for that question, try #game-development or #python-discussion

[vague sandal]

okay

[pastel thunder]

Yes

I wrote an email, told about my interest then worked on a research

[sudden rover]

Hello guys! I work in tech support since a couple of years. i've discovered a passion with python, finance and algorithmic trading and in the future that's what i would like to be my income. Still i like a lot python in general and i'd like to transition my career from tech support to developing (i'm studying hard python and data science). I started in november and now i'm fairly proficient with basics.
Question: is there some technical mock interview for a junior python developer? How can i check if i can apply to those position or i'm still not prepared enough?

[dense mesa]

Apply for positions you know you won't take, and "practice" the interviews with those companies

[near ocean]

the interviews for algo trading/quantitative analysis have less to do with software skills and more with mathematical modeling, finance knowledge (greeks, var, bsm model, etc)

[sudden rover]

to be honest for now i would consider absolutely anything that would get me closer to this world. to practice with interviews that's a good advice.. anyone that made a career change wants to share first job in programming?
PS: i know quantitative analysis is more specialised and mostly requires a degree for that which i don't have... so i was more open to a simple junior python developer position

[dense mesa]

I don't study CS but got a part time python role and a full time tech PM offer

[delicate bane]

tanuki, come protect me from others who are evil

[delicate bane]

this seems like a solid plan. if you can do automated testing (rather than manual) in QA, that may help too i believe

[brittle thorn]

Lmao I wish I can but im not a diety....just a mortal that drinks a lot of coffee lmao

[errant light]

hi, what is the best python certification?

[dense mesa]

Python certifications are generally not well respected

[near ocean]

A CS degree

[vapid jay]

Half the people on the internet: “Coding is awesome because it’s not about degrees or how well you dress, it’s just about if your code runs.”

The other half: “Of course you can’t get a job without a degree you idiot”

[near ocean]

You can cut down a tree by kicking it. But using an axe is easier.
the degree is the axe in this metaphor

[gilded valley]

what's the tree?

[near ocean]

hmm I guess the tree is the hiring obstacles (recruiter/HR/"talent specialists"), cutting it down gets you in front of a technical person where things that matter more than the degree take over

if youre already getting calls back and interviews scheduled, a degree does nothing for you

[slim basin]

It sucks that they aren't generally even though the Python Institute it's self is the on giving them out and honoring them.

[vapid jay]

hello guys, would like some advice. I would like to develop a game similar to fifa and add some deep learning features to the game, or should i try and commit myself to a data science project? I would like to add my projects to my portfolio

[slim basin]

What kind of job are you going for?

[vapid jay]

data science, but i would like to specialise in machine learning hopefully

i have my eyes on nlp, but i still need to learn the theory for both machine learning and nlp. a game would be easier to start with since it requires less study time

[slim basin]

I say do what you enjoy learning about. Because passion will help you get through the hard tines in the development possess.

[near ocean]

the python institute is not an accredited institution, they issue their own certificate with nothing controlling the quality of their programs

thats probably why people dont care

it also doesnt help that theres no professional standards bodies or chartered organisation for the development of software

the upside to that however is that it makes the industry more accessible, if you had to be a member of some standards body like IEEE to work as a software engineer it would pretty much kill self-taught dev hopes

[slim basin]

True I had to take mine Proctered through Persona Vue idk

True

[near ocean]

(of course qualified SWE would probably be paid 3x more what they get now, but talking hypotheticals isn't that helpful)

[delicate bane]

another alternative is to get experience somehow but those opportunities can be quite rare

[delicate bane]

i like this metaphor very much

[near ocean]

inb4 people kicking down trees to prove a point

[delicate bane]

do you think this is contributing to the decline of traditional engineering jobs vs. SWE or am i just imagining this decline

[near ocean]

I think youre imagining it, but why are you

Have you noticed something? I see lots of jobs put there for all levels, not just seniors (but i live in london so that might be it

Ever since i asked for a title change i've even had recruiters spam me

[true harness]

have you played Minecraft?

[vapid jay]

I made Minecraft in python once

[near ocean]

Lol, no, do you punch instead?

[vapid jay]

from minecraft import minecraft

Run(minecraft)

[vapid jay]

When you’re starting out yes, but an axe is faster

[vapid jay]

well the axe and kick metaphor really depends on what college you are from(cause buying golden axes on emi's is harder than kicking the damn tree or some axes are so blunt that it only deteriots your productivity)

[delicate bane]

oh i meant decline of traditional engineering like mechanical, electrical, civil, etc.

but maybe i am just seeing many in those fields switching over to SWE and that is biasing my thinking

[near ocean]

Oh, well its kinda hard to work from home if youre needed at a worksite to oversee lol, i can see why people would want to move careers

Also i would think a chartered engineer with some demonstrable experience in software, hobbyist or professional, could get a mid dev position straight away

[delicate bane]

there was one engineer guy here talking about transitioning to SWE (i think he was mechanical..? i dont remember)

the guy with the dino pfp 🦖

[obtuse talon]

🤣

[dense mesa]

I study mostly manufacturing engineering (with some software modules that are for engineering programs) and got into software

[dense mesa]

The python institute isn't the python foundation

They just offer overpriced certificates which don't show much about your ability

[delicate bane]

ah yes i knew you were engineering but i was referring to a more a recent guy who is currently transitioning i believe; but actually what is your take on people moving from traditional engineering to SWE? should i be recommending some of my traditional engineering friends to consider picking up some software skills?

[broken furnace]

Could anyone tell me if it's common practice to have to interview in a language you're not familiar with? Applied for a junior position coming from a Python background, the job uses C# - they've asked me to come in to complete some algorithms etc and expect me to use C# but: 'none of the complex language features and if you have prior experience in other languages it shouldn't be too difficult'

[grim turtle]

what do you guys think of this video? https://youtu.be/sO1ctUNQ1k8
Its about why you shoulnt learn python and is it true what he says?

[smoky quest]

Any specific arguments you want to discuss?

[smoky quest]

It's not great, but when it does happen, I would reply "Sure, let's just be mindful of the fact I don't know the language and may have to make up some constructs on the spot". Nothing to loose in trying anyway

[dense mesa]

Most people in traditional engineering are now having to use data/modelling/computation/software in some way. Engineering students who don't know how to write basic programs are kinda disadvantaged

[dense mesa]

If you list a few of the main arguments that would get more responses, people aren't as likely to watch a 10 minute video otherwise

[near ocean]

Disregard youtuber opinions, they only exist to get clicks

[grim turtle]

Make sense😅 than i want to ask is it true that there ar nearly any jobs for junior or starters with python that company's only want programmers that ar further in mastering python

[grim turtle]

i think wanna ask is it true that there ar nearly any jobs for junior or starters with python that company's only want programmers that ar further in mastering python

[delicate bane]

yes but its usually like matlab or autocad, not really stuff like python usually

[analog sun]

Hello, please don't post unapproved advertising. Feel free to DM @severe widget to let the admins know more about the event and how it relates to python.

[smoky quest]

https://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=python&explvl=entry_level found 28k jobs

[broken furnace]

Yeah I think I'll have to make that clear in the interview - hopefully I can always say 'I'm not sure how I'd do this in C#, but this is how I'd do it in Python'. Thanks for your response!

[dense mesa]

I don't understand the question

[dense mesa]

MATLAB is basically a more abstracted version of Python so a lot is directly transferable. My uni is leading some research to get people learning Python in engineering, which what my part time job is

[smoky quest]

exactly!
Don't hesitate to roll with the punches and to take it with stride

[languid crater]

Hi is there someone here with like a linkedin and available to answer like 5 questions about the industry. I have an interview for a technical writing class -_-

[dense mesa]

Yeah

[brittle thorn]

Been happening a long time

[brittle thorn]

Yep had somebody in academia push matlab on me after I submitted a Numpy script since its what they are used to

[delicate bane]

but index = 1...

[brittle thorn]

That is a tiny annoy yep

[brittle thorn]

Also stuff like solidworks and moar eso eng stuff

[brittle thorn]

Rawr maybe he is awesome dinos are

[delicate bane]

[brittle thorn]

Early movers had advantage ...find the fresh ecosystem...move in before it gets crowded...move to new one

[brittle thorn]

Not just you lmao....I hab done that and seen it too...also heard from Dean at Eng school complain of declining enrollment at major eng uni

[brittle thorn]

We can discuss this topic a long time over coffee lmao

[delicate bane]

[thick juniper]

This is exactly what I did on a Java interview I had a couple months ago, and my interviewer seemed to take it in stride. In fact, we had a very good conversation overall, I thought.

Of course, I also didn't get the job, so you should take the advice for what it's worth.

[broken furnace]

The role I'm interviewing for is junior/grad, and I was thinking earlier that if I happened to have chosen C# as my main language rather than Python when I started learning, I may look much more knowledgeable/competent while interviewing for this role, even with the same level of experience, just due to the fact I'd be comfortable with the syntax. Makes me wonder why pseudocode isn't used, or why they wouldn't just test for the correct output regardless of language.

[brittle thorn]

Because some employers sadly want employees with a better initial fit. If you are applying to a small startup then they may not hab money for training up. Big corps do but there is opposite problem as they maybe swamped with applicants after free training lmao...

[brittle thorn]

Career transitions are hard wish you better luck next time

[delicate bane]

interesting since department of CS falls under college of engineering here

[brittle thorn]

Same here but eng is split and some eng like EEE which had Com Eng doing well... Chem Eng Mech Eng and Civil not so well

In some eng there is overabundance of faculty since job market not too gud ...I did ask if I can be ChE faculty the Dean told me there too many applying

Was friend of ME dean too he told me of declining enrollment...there used to also be Mining Eng ...that disappeared sadly

[brittle thorn]

Moar coffee we can take this off topic if you want

[tranquil ingot]

Anyone want to teach me some basic python coding for fun right now?

I'm brand new to everything IT related.

[brittle thorn]

Go to General this is for career stuff

[tranquil ingot]

10-4 thanks buddy

[delicate bane]

its okay. i dont have anything else to add

i do like it when job postings have this in their "Preferred" section instead of including this in "Requirements" section for entry-level jobs

[muted sapphire]

I’m currently an electrician. Make pretty okay money and I enjoy my job most days. But I know the day is going to come where I want a desk job and I’m not busting my back anymore. I know a little bit about python programming, but for the sake of my career I want to learn more. Specifically, I just want to start a project. I’m not sure this is the right place here to ask, but what are some personal projects that both look good on a resume, as well as have a deep spectrum of concepts to learn. I work 10-12 hours a day so I really want to try and get the most out of my time. Thanks for the help in advance

[brittle thorn]

Depends on your interest so start any....if you enjoy it you will stick with it

[true harness]

<@&831776746206265384>

[smoky quest]

Ideally, something you are passionate about. It helps sound excited when talking about it, but also helps staying motivated when working on it.
So something helping you out for your electrician job would be a natural fit.

Otherwise a clone of a popular product would be natural.

[thick saffron]

hey does anybody here have a good website for finding full-time remote jobs except linkedin? I am not interested in freelance/contract based ones.

Or do you know how can I only see abroad remote jobs lol

[smoky quest]

linkedin and indeed are the most popular ones.
So what's wrong with linkedin?

[thick saffron]

I am looking for abroad ones. And in locations there is only my country exists.

If there is abroad option for remote I would be okay with linkedin. Couldn't see it

[smoky quest]

you can specify a remote option in linkedin. However, I am not sure if it's what you are looking for

[thick saffron]

it is not unfortunately. Like I said, linkedin only shows my country results.

I am okay with getting on-site jobs abroad as well at this point

[thick saffron]

in locations filter I have only my country's cities

[smoky quest]

You may have to specify he country in the location and then set the filter to remote

Also note that you salary would still be based on your location, not the company's HQ location

[thick saffron]

how do I specify that location?

[smoky quest]

the top bar?

[thick saffron]

I can put a country there but it is limited to one country. I would like a normal worldwide search

[smoky quest]

that's odd. That doesn't seem to match what I see

[thick saffron]

can you share an ss to me to pinpoint on what do you mean by top bar

it defaults to turkey when I search for remote

or I can search in the location box for another country

[thick saffron]

yes when you click location textbox and select remote on dropdown there, it defaults to turkey for me

[smoky quest]

works on my machine.

I can pick any location in the header and then set a filter to remote.
Maybe it's a Turkey specific behavior?

[thick saffron]

yes I can pick one location as well

I can't search for world wide & remote & data scientist

when I search for a job title with remote as location, It only shows results from turkey. But I can search say in germany and then filter remote

[smoky quest]

yeah, I don't think there is a "worldwide" location

[thick saffron]

I wish to find where it is because it makes sense when I am searching for a very niche remote job

[hidden sparrow]

ok

[analog sun]

Hello, these channels are topical discussion channels (the topics are in the channel descriptions), and not meant for advertising. Thanks

[true remnant]

Hey there,
I've got a few questions: 🙂
How often and how long do you study coding?
Have you had setbacks, if so, what did ya do to come back on the track?
How to be more perseverant rather than a procrastinator?
I'd like to hear the real and personal suggestions 🙂
Thank you!

[gilded rune]

location reveal

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until <t:1650466035:f> (9 minutes and 59 seconds) (reason: duplicates rule: sent 4 duplicated messages in 10s).

[ivory sluice]

@lime current pls don't cross post your question, see #❓｜how-to-get-help to claim a help channel

!silence

[inner wren]

✅ silenced current channel for 10 minute(s).

[ivory sluice]

please move to off topic: #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

i don't understand how or why you are trying to guess each other's locations

but it's not appropriate here

!unsilence

[inner wren]

✅ unsilenced current channel.

[ivory sluice]

!cban 966372875672125570 ban evasion

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @jaunty delta permanently.

[analog sun]

!cban 966380549352587395 ban evasion

[dense mesa]

<@&831776746206265384>

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @pastel venture permanently.

[dense mesa]

There's spam right above my message

[sudden yacht]

@chilly bobcat This is off topic. This is not server to drop random tweets or videos.

[summer inlet]

tips for ethical hacking?

[analog sun]

Sure, dont do it. This is also off topic for this channel

[summer inlet]

ok, why does it say career discussion then

[sudden yacht]

Ethical hacking isn't a career in of itself. Maybe you want to become a security researcher or pentester.

[near ocean]

there's no such thing, it's called penetration testing
there's CompTIA certs, and for hobbyist stuff there's hack the box, there's tryhackme

were you not just banned again for ban evasion?

[summer inlet]

Much appreciated have a good day sir

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384>

[peak halo]

did you think it was going to stop?

[ivory sluice]

!cban 966382863102664734 ban evasion

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @bronze fox permanently.

[dense mesa]

Btw when people are using multiple accounts, it's usually from stolen tokens. They'll look like legit accounts because they were at one point

[peak halo]

we investigate that sort of thing behind the scenes. let us know in #community-meta if you have any questions.

[near ocean]

john hammond on youtube has cybersecurity content, so does LiveOverflow, both pretty good

[summer inlet]

ah thx a lot i found a server deticated to it anyways

[shadow mountain]

.

[viral oxide]

it's in carrier discussion? e

[lapis orchid]

Hello everyone, I just joined the server and my brain has been melting over this topic, I recently just enrolled to seek a cs degree and I have been wanting to learn python but I have no idea where to start or what to study first, can anyone point me into the right direction or show me a roadmap?

[dapper depot]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[dapper depot]

this is a good place to start

[peak halo]

if you want a roadmap, you should probably use a book, since those tell you what the learning objective for the book is and present the information in a deliberate order. there are books (including free ebooks) on the page that Scofflaw linked to.

[lapis orchid]

Alright thank you I appreciate it

[fickle flax]

@lapis orchid hey, also besides wanting to learn python is there a specific career in mind? Python is just a lang- it doesnt really matter if you learn it or not as it can be learned anytime it just a lang

unless first time coding then python is a great lang to start with

[lapis orchid]

I HAVE NO IDEA I just know my dad did cyber security and a bunch of intel stuff in the military

He wanted me to try out cyber security stuff but Idk what I want to do really

[plush lichen]

well here's the thing I have plenty of other accounts but if this one gets banned i'll just adopt a new name and not bring this up again but you all havent even heard my side of the story yet and are just blindly banning

[analog sun]

Join the appeal server on your main account, so you can receive our messages

[plush lichen]

I mean the main accusation against me was ip grabbing which is nearly impossible to do on discord

[analog sun]

!ban 960546978201215006 ban evasion

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @plush lichen permanently.

[fickle flax]

@lapis orchid oh okay, yeah in that case i am assuming this is your first time learning to code so in that case yeah the resources that were mentioned can help. Everyone has their own learning style but for python you want to master the basics of coding which any tutorial covers that includes loops, variables, functions, arrays, data structures, OOP.

Can also ask your dad the kind of projects he works on and tie that in with what you are learning in python to see if thats what you are interested

it will also give you work experience in. a way which is important for any job

[lapis orchid]

If it helps when I was in middleschool /high school I did a lot of modding and stuffs using atom.io and one of my biggest things was always coming up with crazy ideas and wanting to make things all the time so if there's a career that involves making things that would probably be more in tune with how I am as a person

unfortunately my dad can never tell me anything cause he did stuff in special forces and a lot of hushy hushy nonsense

[fickle flax]

yeah, you can also do little projects with cyber security in python to get an idea the kind of field cyber is

also asking others in your school professionals or here what cyber security do. Youtube also shows this a a day in life of cyber.. But yeah no worries just do what youa re doing now then you can try different things to see what you want to do

[lapis orchid]

Yea my friend showed me the tryhackme website and the hackthebox while also showing me how to use workstation pro and download kali

[shadow moss]

Is Python the language used at your university?

[mortal wedge]

Which job boards has everyone found helpful to use, either in finding employees or finding jobs?

[smoky quest]

linkedin/indeed/company's website

[potent root]

the future of python developers contains a large amount of anime pfps

[dense mesa]

Not funny or relevant to the channel 😃

[rancid hearth]

How hard is getting a job in data science? If aiming for the top tech companies, GAFA.

[gilded valley]

It's quite difficult. A lot of people want those jobs, so they can be incredibly selective. Generally if you want to be hired into a data science role you want a masters or PHD from a very good university

[rancid hearth]

I'm studying in physics, highly interested in Data Science. I get a premium account of DataCamp and trying to learn things. Will it be a waste of time if I don't have any masters or PHD from a very good university?

[vapid jay]

Hi I have a career question. I have been learning Python and Django for a few months and looked at the job market and it is not strong for Django developers. Should I transition to JavaScript (MERN stack) to get a job?

[peak halo]

it's very difficult to break into, and you have to constantly keep up on developments in technology. if you don't have a degree that is related to scientific computing in some way, it's very unlikely that you will get a job doing it.

if you're sure that that's a direction you want to go, you should probably switch majors.

[rancid hearth]

Well. It's gonna be very difficult for me. The university I'm studying does not have Computer Science major. Yes, I can go to a private university, but I don't think I can afford it.

[gilded valley]

My company (very much not FAANG) hires physics people into data science roles fairly often. But if you're set on GAFA or whatnot, then you will almost certainly want a higher degree probably related to CS
you can do CS/Data Science masters coming from physics though

[peak halo]

are the physics degree holders doing data science that relates to physics in some way?

[gilded valley]

no - not at all. It's finance

the reasoning is that as long as you know the maths, you can probably pick up the developer side of things fairly easily

[rancid hearth]

"you can do CS/Data Science masters coming from physics though" - this is some hope.

[gilded valley]

when I say "you can do" I mean that there are programs which will accept you

in the UK/EU* (should have said this earlier, I'm not sure what it's like in the US)

[peak halo]

so these are people with a BSc in physics and an MSc in something computational?

[gilded valley]

no no - these are people with a bachelors, masters, or Phd purely in physics

[dense mesa]

It's not uncommon to take engineering/physics people for software roles in the UK

[rancid hearth]

Well, I'm not from UK/EU or US. I think after completing BSc, I should try for a scholarship in those countries. If that's an option.

What about if I drop GAFA and just think about a good job.

[peak halo]

is GAFA basically FAANG? in either case, the visibility of the company that you work for isn't a statement about how well it pays or how much you'd enjoy working there.

[rancid hearth]

GAFA is basically FAANG.

[honest pivot]

Is Netflix out of the acronym already after their recent gaffes?

[peak halo]

I don't really know why they were ever in it. they don't influence public perception about technology, and they're lower-revenue than microsoft or IBM

[gilded valley]

it was always a bit weird for Netflix to be included in the first place, I think it has a lot fewer engineers than the others

[honest pivot]

I think it's so they could make the word FAANG

[peak halo]

AAFG

[gilded valley]

FAANG started out as an investing term, it makes more sense for Netflix to be included there because it was about the explosive growth

[ivory talon]

I mean, Netflix was quite a big deal before others started competing with it.
This might be a bit of an exaggeration, but as far as I can tell, they essentially created the streaming market (excluding youtube/twitch, which have a very different kind of "product")

[vapid jay]

I've got a question. I've been coding for a long time, from a job perspective, what is probably the best language to narrow down on? My favourite languages are C / C++. But these don't seem like favourable languages in the modern world.

[peak halo]

C and C++ are still widely used for low-level programming, and probably will continue to be used for that for quite a while.

[vapid jay]

There's not many jobs is the problem =\

It's great for open-source (free). Outside of that, it's hard to find anywhere that has that as its core outside of embedded.

Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places.

This is such a wrong question, and I know it, lol.

I guess what I'm looking for, in short, is this if I spend the next year solving complex programming problems in python, armed with a background in low-level programming, like x86 / m68k, a degree in CS and a minor in mathematics. Will I be able to continue to code in python once I'm in the workforce, or will I probably wind up landing a job doing low-level systems programming?

Is the job market saturated with python talent right now?

Also, if it is the case that this is true, what are things people can recommend that one does to stand out. Are there resources anyone can share concerning programming competitions, mentor programs, or anything other than leetcode?

[dense mesa]

No it needs it

[dense mesa]

Do useful projects and contribute to open source

[vapid jay]

I have been.

[gilded valley]

IME there are very few jobs where Python is the main ask. There's a lot of jobs - data engineering, SRE - which use a lot of Python, but usually the ask is for ability with something else like data pieplineing or infrastructure. There's not a huge amount of pure python software roles

[vapid jay]

Interesting, so possibly I should just stick with Java, C++ and C.

[gilded valley]

you would probably benefit from learning Python to some degree - because if you know those other languages it's very easy to pick up

[vapid jay]

I know python already.

[gilded valley]

then what is your ask? No one is forcing you to pick one language (except the occasional C# or Java job)

[vapid jay]

I don't know it well, but I can code anything in it, i just need access to resources.

Well, I am kind of forcing myself to pick one. I need to narrow my focus down.

[gilded valley]

what are you focusing for? In order to maximise your chances of landing a job? It seems to me that you'd be better suited by finding the kind of job that you most want to do, and looking at what those jobs generally ask for - there will probably be a lot in there besides just the programming language

[vapid jay]

I'll clean toilets at google if that's what it requires.

[gilded valley]

what is "it"? What is your end goal? Any employment? If so, then web dev seems like the easiest field to break into - learn to build a full stack JS or JS/Python app and then just start applying to every company under the sun

(calling "web dev" a field at this point is a bit silly given that it probably encompasses a significant majority of software engineeringesque roles)

[vapid jay]

Hi I have a career question. I have been learning Python and Django for a few months and looked at the job market and it is not strong for Django developers. Should I transition to JavaScript (MERN stack) to get a job?

Here's the problem with learning. I spend a lot of time doing it, and I know its pitfalls. When one goes deep into topics, a lot of the stuff falls off. I'm sick of wasting my time learning archaic things coming back to the surface and learning some new items from a - z. I want to start narrowing down on a field and become an expert in it to get paid to specialize. I don't know what the job market is looking for. I don't have a favourite part of tech; I love everything about science, math, and computing. So it's not a matter of what I want to study; it's a matter of what I should study.

[vocal vale]

@vapid jay can you check your dms

[vapid jay]

Kindly don't dm me programming questions. Ask in the help channels here. I don't know who you are, @vocal vale.

[vocal vale]

Ok

[gilded valley]

If you're question is "how do I maximise my long term salary growth via specialisation?" then I doubt anyone here as a great answer for you. My own approach is to find someone to pay me to do something bearable which I think has reasonable long term growth prospects - data science related software development - but that's very much a personal opinion thing

[vapid jay]

That's actually good advice.

[delicate bane]

i would say netflix is up there. their pay for their engineers are on average higher since they make that a priority. their tech blog is one of the better ones too

[vapid jay]

Thanks

[gilded valley]

it's not about what they pay their engineers - it's about the amount of engineers they employ. ~10k for Netflix vs 100k+ for the rest of FAANG

[delicate bane]

but why are we talking about numbers of engineers as the reason why they should be included in the acronym or not?

i thought it was always about quality/attracting top talent

[gilded valley]

Number of engineers relates to the likelihood of getting hired there. If the only question was about quality of talent, then there's lots of other companies which are up there with Netflix

[delicate bane]

i think i missed most of the convo, i just wanted to plug netflix's tech blog tbh

that is all.

[fickle flax]

@vapid jay hey, one advice I would say is there is no need to learn different stacks for the sake of getting an interview. Because some get into habit of trying to learn every tech. You can learn it if its popular, React is and Node for sure in my area along with flask, but even so you can learn MERN but one you do learn a stack, just apply to jobs even if they use different stacks or langs. Just let them know during interview you will learn on job unless specific jobs that ask for years of experience in a stack but even so learn one stack in this case you can learn MERN but then just apply dont learn every stack- will be a waste of time

[graceful mason]

Any reason why you're against getting a job doing embedded/low-level stuff?

[vapid jay]

I'm not at all, i just cant find anything lol.

Every job posting is, "We want 15 years of experience"

I'm looking for an internship, a QA spot, something to this effect.

[honest pivot]

"embedded" is a pretty broad field

[vapid jay]

I want a position where I can learn from the company long term.

[honest pivot]

That's pretty vague

[vapid jay]

You are about as helpful as spell check. Can I package you up and store you in my system somewhere, Aurendil?

[graceful mason]

at the end of the day you need to decide what you want to aim for, and what you enjoy working with the most
companies that hire people for low-experience roles do it with the expectation that they will teach them as they go, and they want to hire people who have the best chance of learning. that means they want you to be passionate about the kind of work they're doing - going in saying "i'll just do whatever" won't get you very far

[vapid jay]

Yeah, I figured as much. I'm just kind of getting scared because of the reality of what I'm seeing in the workforce. All of these companies are screaming for talent. Still, I look in the recruiting ads on linkden or some other source, and what they call for is underpaid overqualified senior devs.

[coarse wharf]

anyone knows where i can learn python the best? i’m new (;

[vapid jay]

I'd imagine not in a career discussion channel @coarse wharf

[coarse wharf]

bet

[vapid jay]

try #python-discussion

[coarse wharf]

thanks

[vapid jay]

I have intermediate python knowledge, should I be applying for jobs now?

[dense mesa]

Apply and see what you get

[vapid jay]

Sure thanks

I think I might be getting stuck in this tutorial hell

[plush phoenix]

it may be difficult to get a first programming job in python. do you have any professional experience in the software dev space?

[vapid jay]

No, but for a junior role, should that be important?

[plush phoenix]

even for "Junior Developer" a lot of companies will still want some experience, which sucks. And for a language like python, there arent a lot of entry level positions out there. youre much more likely to find a truely entry level postion with a language like Java, JavaScript, or C#

[vapid jay]

Sure if I know Python well enough, it won’t be problem switching, no?

I understand OOP concepts well, so if I were to do them Java, it’s not going too hard.

[plush phoenix]

learning a new language once you've got one isn't difficult, especially if you're moving from one OOP to another. Learning something like Rust or C may be challenging if all you have is Python under your belt, but JS or Java or PHP or C# or anything like that should be straight forward

[vapid jay]

Ok I might try to apply for their other languages. I think I understand the concepts well.

It’s junior roles so I don’t expect it to be weird in the requirements. I’m sure I can pick up a language quickly on the job because in my confidence in finding the answers and asking the right questions. Thanks for your advice. I will take a risk and apply!

[plush phoenix]

You should learn basic syntax for a language before applying to a job with it. They all have their own quirks that change how you use its features, especially JavaScript.

they will likely ask you questions about the language, and if you cant answer them, you wont be hired

[smoky quest]

It depends on the job.
Software engineer is way more than just knowing a programming language. See https://roadmap.sh/ for instance for examples of skills based on the role.
Companies will look for:

• Compelling resume with education (if possible), projects, experience
• Ability to pass the interview, which are based on the role

[dim pelican]

So signing up for Penn Foster worked. Only problem is I’m getting full time positions rather than part time :(.

[vapid jay]

Thanks for the advice 😊

[delicate bane]

congrats? kinda?

[fickle flax]

@vapid jay @plush phoenix yeah i heard that it best to learn a lang that related to the job once you get an interview offer, instead of before as one may not get job and would only keep learning multiple langs for sake of job application when it should be only after getting interview offer. Can also apply for another job that uses the lang you know

[true harness]

i have no experience in the professional world at all, but that doesn't make any sense to me. how are you going to get a job with a specific language if you don't know it?

[summer roost]

indeed, I wouldn't learn a language just to apply to a job, but I also wouldn't apply to a job if they say their primary language is one I don't know.

[smoky quest]

It's about transferable skills.
The first language takes a lot of time to learn as you are also learning about algorithms and how to deal with memory and functions and objects...
But after that, learning another language is pretty quick and can be done as fast as in a matter of days in some cases.

And what companies look for, are engineers able to solve their problems which in general are about building a backend, frontend or a mobile app. These activities require many skills beyond the programming language and are the most time and effort consuming ones to learn.
Which is why there would be no issue hiring someone who did backend in python at a job doing backend in java (or some other language)

[true harness]

but wouldn't it be preferable to already know java

[smoky quest]

It's about who can get the job done the most or is the most promising. If the non-java engineer is able to demonstrate better skills, I would have no qualms hiring them over a java engineer

If someone is good, learning the language is just "an implementation details"

That's also another reason why I advise people to focus on education and school over bootcamp/self learning. Anyone can learn a language and piss code but it's a lot more time and effort consuming to go beyond that

And that's also why most jobs are about "software engineer" and not "java engineer". The implication is the "java engineer" is a one trick pony while the "software engineer" can be responsible and accountable for the entire stack, lifecycle and solution

[summer roost]

this becomes true at the senior level, but it's certainly not true at the junior level. At the junior level, you're extremely unlikely to get hired for a job if you don't know the primary language they want you to use.

[smoky quest]

This has not been my experience. If anything, the language matters less as they are just too fresh to have built any sort of meaningful experience. I can't even expect juniors to be familiar with git or build systems or specific tools.
What I have seen for juniors is companies caring a lot more about the leetcode part as a proof they can handle the job. But that may be location specific and ymmv

A language is also more than being able to type a syntax and I haven't met any junior with a good sense of design patterns and craftmanship from the get go

[vapid jay]

Any others here making a change to learn coding into their late 20's or 30's?

[gilded valley]

This isn't really true in the UK. Lots of companies will hire you as long as you know a language and tick some other boxes

[craggy wave]

We do require the applicants to have knowledge of the primary language advertised for that position in my company (The Netherlands), although we have jobs for quite a few languages. Still, if I'm interviewing someone for our Pythoneers unit (which is the on I work for), I am looking for knowledge of Python.

[karmic token]

I haven't seen this to be true at least at the companies I've worked at in bay area california

If you show proficiency in any language, then it doesn't really matter since learning a second one is pretty trivial

assuming its even remotely similar... If you're good with java and you're applying for a primarily SQL analyst position, that's not going to work

[vapid jay]

Are the salaries as crazy in the UK/Netherlands as they are in the US/

if not, do people from the UK desperately try to get into a US company?

[smoky quest]

lot's of people do try

[summer roost]

The salaries in the UK are substantially lower than the US. It's still a good paying job there, but they don't have quite the same income extremes as the US has.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @tidal belfry until <t:1650523193:f> (9 minutes and 59 seconds) (reason: role_mentions rule: sent 4 role mentions in 10s).

[rustic schooner]

Hi can I dm you a few questions about being hired in the netherlands?

[honest pivot]

I would also like to ask you about the Netherlands

[gilded valley]

The UK isn't even really that close looking purely at salaries. Even adjusting for the better work/life balance and healthcare costs, most of the US is probably quite far ahead

[craggy wave]

Sure, although if those questions are not personal, feel free to ask your questions here, since it may interest others as well

[craggy wave]

No, salaries in The Netherlands are good for Dutch standards, but nowhere close to US standards.

Still, the job market for Python developers is quite good in the Netherlands at the moment. A lot of options and good benefits for the Dutch market.

[honest pivot]

Can I ask where in the Netherlands you are, and what salary ranges look like?

[craggy wave]

I live near The Hague, my company's main location is in/near Utrecht, although we also have an office in Amsterdam, Groningen, and Eindhoven (and offices in Belgium). We're an IT service provider, consultancy company, and solution provider, so we also work a lot for clients. I mostly work remotely and only go into the office one day per week on average.

I'm not so sure about the general salary ranges, but do know that secondary employment benefits are important in The Netherlands. On top of your base salary, employers may offer you quite generous additional benefits. For instance, my employer offers you either a budget for leasing a company car or an "alternative travel allowance" (which for me would just be an additional ~700 euros per month on top of my salary).

If I look at yearly salary ranges, I can find entry level jobs that start at about €40,000 yearly to €80,000 for senior positions. There are higher paying positions as well (leads and so on).

[honest pivot]

Yeah, I know it's common in Belgium for companies to provide a car, something about the tax law incentivises it

Although I'd rather be paid enough to buy my own car, so that it doesn't vanish if I leave my job...

[brittle thorn]

Neat I live in asia seems like a good deal

[near ocean]

what is this shabby job advert

[marsh wind]

!rule 9 please do not advertise jobs here, refer also to the channel topic line

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[vapid jay]

Should I learn NGINX or APACHE first?

[vapid jay]

Yes I was told by someone who works for Microsoft in the UK to apply for jobs, even though I told him what I know. He says the language don’t matter. FYI he’s a Azure Specialist (so not really a software engineer.) Thank you all for the messages. I appreciate it.

In your team, would you prefer someone who was really good at one language, knows TDD, OOP and Data structures algorithms very well, or someone who knows all the languages in your stack but never done any of those mentioned?

[near ocean]

All of those can be taught

I would rather have someone that doesnt give attitude whenever im trying to help them or asking for help from them tbh
So many of these people around, skilled or not

[calm vigil]

What kind of projects do data scientist jobs look for? Just got my MsC so just cleaning up my portfolio

[fickle flax]

im currently working on data science project myself too, self taught thoguh but i would say search what entry jobs in your area look for in job description , requirements bit. My project is NLP fullstack using dockers, kuber, flask, API, documentation, visuals liek rasberypi and cloud

i chose this since most jobs for DS in my area require knowledge of dockers, cloud, python backend framework, data cleaning knowledge etc so knowledge of Machine learning in general

[tacit mortar]

hi there, what you suggest to learn to become junior python dev ?

[peak halo]

what does MsC stand for? I work in an AI/ML position, and publications are more important in prospective employees than portfolio projects.

[tacit mortar]

of course except python :D, what kind of projects are good to have in portfolio to get 1st job ?

[near ocean]

a blog is a popular project

[tacit mortar]

to combine with which technologies?

[near ocean]

a database, a backend framework, a frontend framework, docker maybe, and others

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384>

[dapper depot]

!cban 947971742004043786 troll

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @grave jackal permanently.

[craggy wave]

It's probably an M.Sc. (Master of Science) degree

[calm vigil]

MsC is a masters of science yes

[peak halo]

MSc (with or without the dots) is how I typically see that written, or just MS. I think people use BSc so that it's not "bullshit". Anyway, if your goal is simply to clean up your existing portfolio, perhaps you'd be interested to post your github here?

[calm vigil]

It's a mix of existing portfolio and new ideas to work on while I'm completing a temp job. None of my work is currently public on GitHub and I'm at work rn

I'm assuming by publications, you mean web articles? Similar to the tutorial ones? Or is it something different

[peak halo]

papers published in journals

though I'm referring to the expectations at my company, which is the only one I have worked at. it might be that many companies don't care if you've published.

[vapid jay]

hi i from russia

my name is ilyas

[buoyant seal]

Hello Ilyas. Tell us your question related to career topic of the channel, then we will try to answer it

[vapid jay]

this isn't python specific but where would one get paid more: network engineering or low-level programming

[peak halo]

can you think of a job title that a "low-level programmer" would have? you can look on glassdoor.com to see salaries for different positions.

[gilded valley]

Depends on many specifics for both. My quick look at glass door says that embedded software engineers earn about 3-4% more on average

[peak halo]

for a margin that slim, it might be better to look at which one is in higher demand. though it also depends on location.

[vapid jay]

it's just that networking and low-level programming are the 2 fields i like the most

and i guess a job that would be a mix of both is penetration testing

[smoky quest]

If we are talking about compensation, one framework you can use is to look at the impact and amount of $ attached to the responsibilities.
The reason engineers working in ads are more valuable than IT is because they bring tons more $. Similarly, whatsapp engineers are more valuable is because of the number of users per engineers.
Similarly, the reason that the higher up you go in the chain, the more expensive you are is because the impact on the business will be higher as well

[vapid jay]

One you’re passionate about is a good start.

[frail bison]

guys plz like it

[analog sun]

Hello, this channel is for discussing careers, not for sharing links for "likes"

[open socket]

To anyone who has a career in development, how much of what you do day-to-day is architechture vs technical problems like algorithms? How much do you have to learn new stuff? I want to be a developer and I'm a sophomore in HS and I just want to know what skills to focus on developing.

[buoyant seal]

Depends on the company and scope of responsibility

If u a in startup and responsible for entire parts of backend. U need architecturing and everything else at the same time.
Probably not so much of the cared to hire real senior devs for that xD

If u a regular Dev in big companies. All u need learning testing and code quality as main things

Algorithms and data structures is just basic education, it is assumed to be known as person knows language syntax

The beginning of code quality path

[fickle flax]

Hello, I appreciate any feedback on this even though this is not python related but it is career wise related, I was wondering, im working on a personal project but which is better, 1) java Spring + react application of a shopping app, using java design patterns like MVC or 2) same as 1 but with java GUI so no Spring/React just a Maven Project
the reason is , the project alone is quite heavy, and adding front-end can be lots of more work and I just wanted to put this project on resume since it will show case many software engineering skills such as

1. Unit testing, code coverage
2. Best practice + sofware patterns
3. ULM knowledge and code implementation based on requirements
4. Version control + Ci/CD
5. API knowledge and SQL
6. Documentation

Also, i already worked with other frameworks , but will my project stand out more if i use frameworks or front-end over some GUI?

[dense mesa]

Just do one

[fickle flax]

so any is okay? I will do the first one then

[graceful mason]

Spring/React are popular frameworks so will be good if this is for showcasing

[fickle flax]

@graceful mason oh okay, so like i already have knowledge of react and flask , does it really stand out more than if i dont use them? It because I find if i were to make a front-end application for this project it would be more work involve unless i just tie in a backend framework like java srping and use GUI to make UI simple

[graceful mason]

if you can already show your react/flask knowledge it can definitely be seen as excessive. picking the right frameworks for a project is as important as knowing them, and being able to demonstrate that you can take a project from start to finish is great

[fickle flax]

oh okay, hmm I guess I will choose no frameworks for this project since it just a personal project and my other projects already have frameworks , this project is just to showcase software engineering skills

[smoky quest]

Even if using a gui, that would still use an API and remote access to a backend, right?

[fickle flax]

@smoky quest i believe so maybe , it like django or flask the end point interacts with the framework, i not sure if it same for java spring and GUI

[smoky quest]

It totally depends on how you architect and bundle your code.
But the benefit of a decoupled backend is it gives more opportunities to showcase some backend/data skills

[fickle flax]

oh okay thanks il try to look into this

[pastel thunder]

has anyone heard of SIROP, if so how long will it take to hear back for any update on the application?

[brittle cloak]

i have a proplem who can help
how can i use if with words i mean like
tt = wrong
ttt = right

if tt
print("wrong")

[lime tartan]

You're setting a string to a variable

[lime tartan]

You just have to say if tt print(tt)

[brittle cloak]

that's not what i mean i want it to print wrong if i said tt

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
You are asking in the wrong channel as this is #career-advice .
You would have more chance for help by checking #❓｜how-to-get-help

[brittle cloak]

uhhh i think i wont get replay's but i will respect you so...

[lime tartan]

[fickle flax]

hello, sorry I not sure if this is right place but I want to use Dockers for my project, however my macbook pro is from 2016 and i cant seem to upgrade it. As a result I dont meet requirements to install Dockers as mine is version 10.13, should i get a new mac or can i still upgrade my mac version? I checked software update but dont see any updates

[summer roost]

That's not related to careers, or even to Python. Try an off topic channel

!off-topic

[inner wren]

Off-topic channels

There are three off-topic channels:
• #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval
• #ot1-perplexing-regexing
• #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

The channel names change every night at midnight UTC and are often fun meta references to jokes or conversations that happened on the server.

See our off-topic etiquette page for more guidance on how the channels should be used.

[undone willow]

Hi all. I found some universtiites that do online BA CS programs around me. They are run by State Universities both but are not ABET acredited (This is in Florida, U.S btw).

I wanted to ask if anyone here felt that going back to getting a Masters was needed in the world of programming to get higher positions or if that was not considered as much?

[smoky quest]

It's a correlation vs causation.
Having a degree or a more advanced degree is not a guarantee for anything, but it sure does increase your odds.
With higher education, people will be able to go deeper, faster, better, etc. and thus tend to do better and climb faster the corporate ladder.
So for me, if you just want to build a basic website, a MS is not necessary. But if you want to work on more challenging and rewarding problems, then a masters can help

[undone willow]

What about for the world of government work? I kind of like the idea of working for the government and get a pension (retirement is something I try to be serous about)

[smoky quest]

Can't speak much about it as I haven't worked for the government.
But the people I know who do are complaining about very low pays comparing to the market and a few other typical problems you hear about when referring to government jobs

[smoky quest]

With the type of compensation software engineers get, retirement is not something people do have to worry too much about. (but it's great to start preparing for it early)

[peak halo]

you might also look at companies that make 401k contributions

[undone willow]

I’m in a company that makes contributions but I don’t think I’ll last long or if it’s worth investing in it.

[karmic token]

make sure to open a roth ira

absolutely worth it - the sooner you can start contributing the better, because in a software eng job, you'll pretty quickly go over the income limit and you won't be able to contribute

you get to contribute 6k a year unless you're making over 140k salary

and its completely tax free - no capital gains and no tax when you withdraw after 65

401k can work in tandem with this, since you can contribute 22k a year to a 401k which then subtracts from your income

so you can continue contributing to roth up to 160k salary

[thick saffron]

I don't know what it is like in usa but usually, governments takes funds from you for your pension, lets you invest in certain stocks etc. with that by giving you some extra money. That extra money is usually limited so what you want is to invest it enough to get that full amount of money.

[undone willow]

27 and making 15.50 not sure if i can but I’ll ask my benefits person later how I can get started. Im assuming we have the talk at day 60? But I’ll email just in case

[thick saffron]

They have certain protections for you, but so does many investment companiess

What I usually do is give that extra money to some reliable trust funders.

Unless you want to micromanage all that asset as well.

[smoky quest]

Hi! I understand you are frustrated, but you have been touching on a bunch of topics at once. This makes it unclear what it is that you are trying to specifically address here.
Can you help us a bit by narrowing down the specific problem you want to fix?
I am sure people have some opinions on all these subjects but I believe it would make the discussion easier if we were to look at them one at a time.

[polar compass]

Hi! I dont know if im rushing or not but im about to finish my 3rd year and am looking for an internship in data science/analysis. I have mental fatigue for 6 7 years which sometimes prevent me from studying. Now, i lack some skills (not too much) but idk if i ever got admitted. Can you help me how to get an internship with minimum experience or what employers want most from an intern in this field? Thanks

[smoky quest]

There isn't anything specifically concrete.
There aren't any yes/no specific criteria for internships. It comes down to how promising you appear to the interviewers and how you do relative to your competition. The good news for you is you still have plenty of time to learn, grow and catch up on whatever you feel to

[rustic schooner]

<@&831776746206265384> this channel isnt for job offers

[craggy wave]

Hello, @rich raptor, we don't allow recruitment/advertising in our community. Please see the topic of this channel. Thanks for understanding.

[mystic summit]

Hi so uh I need help deciphering this job posting. I jhave a hunch it's just like, monitoring and operations which is not fun. But maybe I'm mistaken. English not being my native language and me not being privy to like, what terms actually mean (like I know competitive pay means "minimum wage if you're lucky" but beyond that idk) makes it really hard to judge if this is really worth my time or not

[near ocean]

looks like a devops position, you'll help with deployments, provisioning infrastructure, automation, etc
Go and python are popular languages for devops, docker-compose was written in python and now go

competitive pay doesnt mean minimum wage, it just means theyre going to try and low ball you

you'd be hard pressed to find any devops position that actually pays min wage

[mystic summit]

devops positions usually pay less than min wage?

[near ocean]

no? what?

$115k for the same title in los angeles

[wheat roost]

What's the average pay of a fresher web developer in England? 🤔

[near ocean]

just under 30k

[wheat roost]

Okay 👍

[craggy wave]

Just do keep in mind that it would be in pounds. 30k in pounds is about 38k in dollars.

[wheat roost]

Yeah👍

[near ocean]

Seems kinda high tbh, its from glassdoor
Most graduate jobs (from agencies targetting geaduates and entry level people) list jobs starting at 25k

[karmic cave]

is it possible to switch from network engineer to back-end developer withoud a degree ?

[gilded valley]

Probably, yeah. It's not necessarily easy, but if you can pick up the requisite skills and demonstrate them in interviews, your experience might be enough to get you in the door for said interviews

[buoyant seal]

Could you explain better your range of duties as a network engineer?

Anyway, it sounds to me like a close enough role to get Linux Administrator role, and from there DevOps engineer

Backend dev is more or less goes in parallel with this way. Requiring just more of a software engineering first approach

[fickle flax]

Hello, I would like to please ask , do employers care more if we implement MVC or software archetech pattern from scratch or use a backend framework like flask for a project? The cons of the first option is code wont be as clean in a big project and not scalable compared to using backend framework. If I were to build a shopping app, using MVC pattern from scratch would look good but it be like not as easy as using a framework and not sure if employers prefer frameworks over patterns from scratch

[brittle thorn]

Depends on the employer ..most would go for a safe and popular framework

[fickle flax]

oh okay, so from your experience or what you heard of, if i were to build project in python using a software architech pattern from scratch, would that be more impressive to you or if i use flask and not use software architech pattern but software patterns instead

because flask also shows backend skills in a way i think

[brittle thorn]

But building one from scratch takes skill and that is moar impressive

[analog ice]

im not familiar with python but it wouldnt hurt to ask directly?

[fickle flax]

Oh okay, it because if i were to build from scratch I would need to use GUI for the UI but if i use a framework i can make the UI more pretty by web development.

in addition, there wont be routes or api without a framework since will be using GUI for this python project if going for first option

[brittle thorn]

Most would judge it by looks unless techy

[graceful mason]

Most companies aren't going to spend the time and money making frontends from scratch, they will use a framework

[fickle flax]

oh okay, yeah this is hard decision as I dont want to implement two projects, but not sure if i should use flask or no framework and implement pattern from scratch

[brittle thorn]

Depends on you

[fickle flax]

yeah, this project more for backend.

[brittle thorn]

If you feel you will grow by implementing stuff from scratch go ahead I had done that too lmao

[fickle flax]

i already research jobs in my area for developer and a lot say experience in one framework- but i already worked with frameworks except in this project it will be to showcase backend skils.

oh really? wow... yeah i guess i thought there would be a straight forward answer to this question, no framework but implement MVC from scratch or use framework and just tie in software patterns

[brittle thorn]

None lmao

[dense mesa]

Maybe just build something instead of over analysing what to do 😅

[fickle flax]

@dense mesa yeah but it just like on resume not sure if employers prefer framework over no framework with software architech MVC pattern for a project

dont want to do framework then on job board ask for MVC knowledge, or backend framework

[dense mesa]

No employer is gonna go for 100% one or 100% the other, paralysis by analysis is worse than just picking one

[ember abyss]

@craggy arrow Can you add me its dars22

[craggy arrow]

why did you write this in #career-advice

[tribal orchid]

Hello guys, should I do Bsc in Programming and data science by IIT Madras, it's a online degree program of 3 years or I should do BTech ?

[ember abyss]

Idk but can you?

[vapid jay]

@lavish fox tu é br mano?

quero te falar uma coisa no pv

[near ocean]

!rule 4, english please

[inner wren]

Rules

The rules and guidelines that apply to this community can be found on our rules page. We expect all members of the community to have read and understood these.

[void kelp]

Im considering PCEP how hard is it? are their any good pretests? just don't really want to pay $300 and fail it.

[near ocean]

Certifications are not worth anything let alone $300

[dense mesa]

It wouldn't be worth the time investment even if it was free

[near ocean]

Look at the exam syllabus, this must be a joke
https://pythoninstitute.org/certification/pcep-certification-entry-level/pcep-exam-syllabus/

[void kelp]

Iv heard realy mixed things idk proly wont spend the money on it tbh. Just gona go towards basic CompTIA

[void kelp]

💀 bro

[near ocean]

Come on man, you dont need to throw away $300 for someone to tell you you know what None is

[void kelp]

thats like basic 💀 dam im gona take python next year for school so ima get free credits and if thats what a certification needs then school is gona be to ez dam

Do you think a good GitHub profile helps at all when applying for a job. do they even ask for that

[near ocean]

Yes, my current company did

Besides, its something to do in your spare time

[dreamy crane]

boss is asking me to interview some guy who's applying for his first programming job

it's in 90 minutes. i'm thinking of adapting an Advent of Code puzzle but we might only have a whiteboard to work with, that sucks

[true harness]

do fizzbuzz!

[near ocean]

First couple of days of aoc

[pastel thunder]

Does anyone know about SiROP.org ?

how long it takes to hear from them after application?

[worn bobcat]

UK - Recently got offered a position as a data science degree apprentice --> I'd get a relatively good salary for the location and a fully paid for Bachelors degree. The program would last 4 years and there's a good chance I'd be able to get full-time employment from the same company upon completion. My only question is if this seems like an issue as I've heard PhD's and master degrees are often preferred and offer much higher salaries in DS. I guess I could get a masters upon completion? Anyway I'd love to hear your thoughts, thanks.

[inner wren]

Hey @vapid jay!

You either uploaded a .txt file or entered a message that was too long. Please use our paste bin instead.

[gilded valley]

Can I ask what the salary you're being offered is for my own curiosity? For reference, my salary as a recent graduate in a data science role is £45,000pa.

Having a masters or PHd is very valuable in the data science field, but as long as you end up with an accredited bachelors at the end of your program, you could do a masters after the fact if you still thought it was necessary. On top of that, you don't actually need a masters for a lot of very high-paying jobs, you just need very very strong data science skills and to be able to demonstrate them

in general my advice is to be wary of apprenticeships, I've heard quite a few stories of apprentices being given no real training and just end up becoming the general office dogsbody, not actually building the skills. I'll admit I'm not too sure whether they were degree apprenticeships or not, and I also don't know what the balance of classroom to on-the-job learning is like in a degree apprenticeship. But the classroom learning is valuable for the data science field because all the cool companies are working at the cutting edge so you want to be able to keep up with the research

(BBC article about "fake" apprenticeship courses for something other than just my anecdotal experience: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-50973579)

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @fringe fog until <t:1650659686:f> (9 minutes and 59 seconds) (reason: duplicates rule: sent 4 duplicated messages in 10s).

[worn bobcat]

it's £21,000 per year to begin with. It's at a large company and it's 80% on the job 20% off the job (uni). It's in a cheap area as well so the pay is not too bad tbf. I met actual data scientists during my interview so I'm pretty sure the training will be good. Also that's quite reassuring about being able to get a fairly well-paying job with a bachelors, so thanks.

[warm gull]

I need help

[gilded valley]

read #❓｜how-to-get-help @warm gull

[warm gull]

Yea I did but it's kind of urgent so I'm trying to get someone as quick as I can

[gilded valley]

generally the fastest way to get help is to ask the people who are wanting to give help - and the way you get access to those is by following the steps outlined in #❓｜how-to-get-help and reading the how to ask good questions guide

[gilded valley]

21k is a pretty good salary compared to -9k which is what you get with a normal degree gives you. I've seen the occasional grad job offering that much. If you're confident that the training will be reasonable, then it seems like a pretty good choice, and if you're good at being a self-motivator then your future career prospects are pretty good when compared to most people doing a BSc at a normal uni

[worn bobcat]

Thanks a lot for the replies. As someone with no direct exp. in data science (being at college currently), what would you say are some important things to read-up on and self-teach before I start? I can programme relatively well in Python - should I brush up on that and then learn R?

I was also considering taking the CS50x course to learn some rudimentary computer science knowledge before starting - is that a good idea?

[gilded valley]

My suggestion would be to pick up some of the non-science skills in Python, learn to get comfortable with using rest APIs, SQL, and probably building FastAPI web apps - this is stuff that every data scientist has to do and lots of them are pretty shit at it. You can also learn this stuff by doing - e.g by making something like a tracker web app for a game/hobby that you enjoy, making something that you yourself will use - which can be a lot easier to motivate yourself into than learning purely for the sake of learning

CS50 will very probably be valuable, iirc it introduces a lot of valuable concepts

[worn bobcat]

thanks, will have a look

[graceful mason]

SQL and cloud computing (e.g. GCS) are good to learn

[gilded valley]

IME for cloud computing it's much easier to learn in a work environment, to just be thrown in at the deep end. But learning some of the basics of Linux and how to use the command line is probably a good first step in that direction

[vapid jay]

How do you know it's time to give up on pursuing a career in programming? I'm starting to think that I spent too much time and didn't do tests to know if my situation is catastrophic

[smoky quest]

It depends on your current situation, your goals and what it would take to reach them.
As is, you haven't shared enough information about yourself for us to help. So can you share a bit more?

[outer dragon]

Is there anyone here who has maybe been a hiring manager or somebody who knows about resumes and would be willing to review mine?

Or I guess even anybody that has a good resume

[gilded valley]

censor out personal information and post a picture of it here

[outer dragon]

Okay I'll have to do it in an hour or so

[vapid jay]

.

[smoky quest]

Hi!
This is in the wrong channel. This channel is dedicated to #career-advice .
You should try #❓｜how-to-get-help to increase your chances of replies and help

[vapid jay]

I'm in college and I can choose between R in the department of statistics and remote sensing and analysis of satellite images, on the other hand I have a friend who owns a trading company and today I heard from you about it and I had already offered him the construction of automated stock buying and selling bots. He has the working capital and I am familiar with the programming and support of that server, which is clearly the help I need to build the bots. But I don't have any experience outside of the hobby. (I will write more)

[dense mesa]

<@&831776746206265384>

[smoky quest]

None of these seem to point at you giving up a career in CS?
If anything, it looks like you are already getting opportunities

[vapid jay]

What

[vapid jay]

when the problems appear I can't solve it, for example I had a .csv file and I had to extract the values ​​less than -1 and greater than 1 and I couldn't at the moment

[gilded valley]

If your friend is going to let a random bsc student be his sole quant dev, I don't think he's likely to be running a successful company for too much longer.

[smoky quest]

Well, that's why you are in college. There is still tons to learn 🙂
I wouldn't worry about it as long as your grades hold up and you graduate.

The best students would typically not only go through their classes, but also have side projects. That seems to match what you are doing.
But yes, it does mean you will encounter a few things you haven't seen yet and will have to ask for help or look for answers

[dense mesa]

You can't share that kinda stuff her e

[vapid jay]

I deleted it

[fringe pine]

To be clear, you can't share it in this channel because it's off-topic. But feel free to open a help channel if you'd like someone to go over the code with you.

[vagrant tartan]

how do i edit a python file

[ivory sluice]

this isn't a help channel, but you can try #❓｜how-to-get-help

[vagrant tartan]

oh ok thx

[outer dragon]

Here's my resume. Thoughts/Comments/Suggestions appreciated. Not to be a choosing-beggar but would love to hear from anyone with hiring experience or senior dev or something

[smoky quest]

looks clean and ok overall.

Some notes:

• It's a bit confusing. After reading it, I am not sure in which box to put you in
• Don't start the whole resume with "self taught developer". You happen to be self taught but it does not define you. You are also selling yourself, so what matters is what the "buyer" is looking for and not how you got there. Employers aren't looking for "self taught developers", but they are looking for "software engineers", "frontend engineers", "backend engineers", "mobile engineers", etc.
• ATSes still have a hard time with multi-colum formats. So I typically recommend to avoid that along with anything that you wouldn't expect a computer to parse nicely
• Everyone watches stuff on youtube/udemy/etc. So that last part has little value on your resume
• The description of your projects lack a bit of impact and could be made more sexy.
• I only see projects related to data transformation in python. That would put you closer to ETL/data engineering. If that's not what you are looking for, then you may want to add some projects that are closer to your target role

[outer dragon]

Is it legit to put "Backend Engineer" on my resume if I've never worked as one really?

[smoky quest]

It's a mix between what you are and your aspirations. If you aspire to work as a backend engineer and apply to backend engineer positions, then it's totally legit. But you also need to make sure your resume reflects that

[outer dragon]

Hmm. Ok. I have a question about the data transformation topic

The crypto trading bot involved quite a bit of data transformation, but it also involved a lot of python that was used for creating the trading bot

I guess I'm wondering if maybe I just didn't express that well, or if I did and you still consider it a mostly data transformation project

I would say the crypto bot and the Freelance work were both about 50/50 data transformation and straight up python coding

I'm asking because I don't know how much of a normal developer's workflow is dealing with data etc

[smoky quest]

There are tons of things to express around these types of projects:

• Is it streaming based or offline based?
• Is it deployed on the cloud?
• Any API you wrote?
• Any challenge or anything interesting
• Any message/event broker involved (Ex: kafka)
• Any cache or special datastore?
• Any specific items regarding scalability or availability?

[smoky quest]

depends on the job. But there can be quite a bit

[outer dragon]

Ok maybe I'll try to re-word it to be less data-heavy

Last question. Do you think I have any chance in hell at getting an entry level job? Things that I have doubts about are my age, relative lack of experience, work experience in an entirely unrelated field that isn't known for "intelligence"

Obviously I'll continue to code and try to add to the resume over time, but it's hard because I work a lot. Usually 70 hour work-weeks.

So I'm wondering how far off I am currently. Also not having a college degree

[smoky quest]

Realistically, you do. Would it be at google? most likely not, but you don't have to work there.
The field is big enough for people with your type of profile.

What I guess you would need to up your chances:

• Continue some freelancing to build up some xp and try to find projects closer to your target role
• Since you seem interested in backend, have a project (or more) to demonstrate it. Look at the skills at https://roadmap.sh/backend and make a project that demonstrate these skills. You could expand your trading bot or have a new project (typical one would be a shopping/ecommerce or another clone of a popular app)
• Prepare for interviews

[outer dragon]

Ok that's nice to hear. I applied to hundreds of jobs before but I was using a different resume that had similar info but it was not as well done as even the one I just showed you. I didn't get any responses for anything, so I'm hoping it was just because the old resume wasn't professional.

I've only applied to a few with that resume I just showed

I'm going to switch it to single-column and I will try to implement the suggestions you gave me

And I suppose I'll just keep my fingers crossed

[smoky quest]

if you applied to backend jobs, then I understand. Your resume doesn't look the one of a backend engineer (yet)

[outer dragon]

I applied for everything lol

Front-end, back-end, data science. Literally anything I thought had a low-enough bar

I'll have to make different versions of the resume. I do have different projects I didn't include

[rich pelican]

Is anyone enrolled in CodePath for the summer technical review track?

[smoky quest]

I would expect more complex tasks/projects for these roles

[outer dragon]

What else is there though?

Everything I applied for was "Junior" or "Entry level"

I'm working on a nice portfolio site also so maybe that will help

And I mean, the crypto trading project was basically full-stack

about 800-1000 lines, though I know that's not a good metric to judge by

But regardless, all I can do is keep trying

So that's what I'll do. I appreciate your time and your help a lot and hopefully with a few tweaks I'll be closer to that first job

[smoky quest]

There are many skills not demonstrated that I would expect from a junior engineer. See the link from roadmap I shared earlier. It doesn't help that your freelance experience is pretty close to your personal project in terms of demonstrated skills

In terms of frontend, you haven't demonstrated the ability to build a frontend as none of your projects/experience reflect that.
In terms of backend or data science, your project/experience reflect a subset of the expectations of a junior engineer.

Your competition has been studying and working on CS for 3-5 years full time. So they will come in with more complex projects demonstrated they have the skills and potential growth. This means you also have to come to the employer with similar or more complex projects.

While I did say it's possible for you to find a job, it will also be some work to get there. But CS is fun and can be a great journey if you enjoy it.
Good luck!

[frozen spear]

Any good side gig sites that are worth the time? Or how is everyone going about freelance work these days? Hoping to pick up some projects on the side

[gritty rivet]

Check out previous discussions as this is one of the more common questions here. Platforms like UpWork and Fiverr are popular but competitive. You have to be highly skilled and/or determined to make it work. Expect your first gigs to be very low paid until you build reputation

[frozen spear]

Ok will do. oof on pay

[lime bay]

I just started a job last week as a junior. Everything I've learnt so far has been me learning on my own. I've noticed that the code on the job site is a bit harder than the code I used to learn. So my question is, how do I grow and become a better dev than I currently am?

[smoky quest]

• Ask questions
• Learn to read code bases you didn't write
• Continue reading books/blogs/watching videos/etc.

[lime bay]

Two questions. Where would one find the code bases to read? I'm assuming Github but then the code there is too much so just picking a random repo and reading it would be of no use.

Also, how would one find the good books, videos to read?

[smoky quest]

For the codebase, your company's codebase is a good start :p
Start with one flow and keep along.
Tests are also a good way to understand the expected behaviors

With regards to book, you can ask for specific topics.
For instance, code complete is a good book to get started on craftmanship but there are others

(fyi, I always have 15-20 books laying around on my desk, not including the ones on my shelves)

[lime bay]

Thank you. Helpful

[smoky quest]

also remember that most people love to talk about their work and themselves.
So stay away from google-able questions (ex: "how does spring work"), but do not hesitate to ask questions about how the services interact in your company and why specific choices were made (ex: "why did we choose mongodb for a datastore?") or how specific things are done (ex: "what is the typical process to migrate the schema for our db?")

[lime bay]

Right. That's actually something I would not have thought off

[sudden sonnet]

Any Reinforcement learning expert?

[summer roost]

I'm sure I was a very annoying junior, but I asked questions constantly. I spent probably 2 hours a day for the first year just asking questions and discussing ideas. I don't know that it would work for everyone, but I think it paid off very well for me.

[lime bay]

So anything you didn't understand you went and asked questions about?

[smoky quest]

just make sure these are not google-able or easy questions.
Questions are great but you don't want to look inadequate

[lime bay]

Combining these answers with roadmap.sh I can see a path forward. Does one need to do projects on their own to really get the experience from books and videos?

[smoky quest]

the best reward would be by doing both.

[summer roost]

Well, yes, but - I'm not sure how actionable that advice is. My advice is "if there's something you don't understand or are curious about, ask someone about it". Adding a caveat that you'll seem inadequate if the thing you don't understand or are curious about is something that most people at your level already know is true, but it's not really useful, either, considering that someone who doesn't know something probably doesn't know whether other people know that thing.

I guess the best advice would be to ask a lot of "why do we" questions and not as many "how do I" questions, but that's just a rough rule of thumb...

I think your caveat might wind up boiling down to "if you're behind your peers, asking questions might reveal that" - which is true, but also... if you can catch up at the cost of seeming incompetent, it's probably better to work on catching up. Sure, doing that in your off time would be better, but doing it during work hours is better than not doing it at all.

[smoky quest]

It's also that, in the age of stack overflow, I see way too many simple questions that could have been answered with a simple google search or basic thinking.
So it's more about making sure the basics are covered.
Beyond that, you are right, and finding the right balance is not always easy

[red pagoda]

@smoky quest 999 days since u created the account
how does it feel

[smoky quest]

That is most surprising. I don't recall creating it that long ago

[red pagoda]

almost 3 years

[honest pivot]

How do you plan to celebrate your 1000th day?

[red pagoda]

delete the account

[smoky quest]

same way I would celebrate the 1000+1 day

[mortal wedge]

Man, this is the exact opposite of the junior at my company. Goes off and works on things for weeks by himself, then when he declares he found a solution better than all of ours he gets super salty when we tell him it's dumb.

[smoky quest]

that's a sign they need tighter supervision

[honest pivot]

Maybe talk about solutions before spending weeks coding them?

[mortal wedge]

Honestly it's probably because his boss doesn't really understand what he's working on so just listens to his glowing reports of his own work. "I found something that will increase revenue by 100%!"

[mortal wedge]

Yeah. Nobody wants to tell him that he needs to stop working on it, so when I asked him why he worked on it without consulting any subject matter experts, I've caught an endless wave of grief.

[honest pivot]

People unwilling to say "no" cause all kinds of problems

[mortal wedge]

Agreed

[honest pivot]

Also people who just start writing code without working anything out on paper beforehand

Might help to understand his motivations? Like why does he think he needs to do things this way?

It could come from some insecurity where he thinks he needs to impress someone, and thinks being the lone rockstar is the best way to do that.

[mortal wedge]

That's a good insight and it would make sense for him. I'm a rockstar and he's the only other engineer of my specialty and I'm the one getting groomed for leadership. He thinks he can turn the tables by coming up with something amazing that overrides my previous work. But he's either being unethical in the data/statistics he's showing or he's just incompetent. Either way it's been a massive headache for me.

[honest pivot]

If that's what's going on, then yeah, sounds like he feels the need to compete with you

[smoky quest]

could also be he is cocky and young and gets positive reinforcement from the manager since they are listening to him nicely

[buoyant seal]

I did not have people to ask. Except people in Discord.

I try Google first, ask free people in Discord, while asking there same rubber duck method is applied.

If I understand I am stuck or I don't have some crucial information that only code owners know... And I could not read this info on my own in reasonable time... I ask then

My juniority was kind of lonely without mentors around. I grew to be depending mostly on myself. A lot of self education, a race to learn things fast in order to make less mistakes in architecturing projects tomorrow

xD I was thrown to architect solutions while being junior

I had choice only to learn as fast I can

Now I am in a new big company. I am just having plain regular Dev duties

Feels kind of downgraded being just a regular Dev. Much less amount of things is practiced in every day life. At a less scale at least

Wishing in a future probably joining some small company again. So I could own more of development process

Developing not just backend, but whole infrastructure, whole planning for the project

It is probably good that I am just backend Dev today... Learning to the next level Code quality in big code bases...

...I think I will be able to make a switch to infra guy easily anyway. But it did not look like it will be useful in a long run I think.

Getting more backend exp looks more perspective from career point of view at the moment

[keen locust]

I have udemy full webdevlopment and DSA also course with life time access
At just Rs 250 only
Hurry up
If any one interested can dm me

[near ocean]

Are you trying to sell or are you asking if its worth it
Protip: its not

[broken sedge]

250 RS is basically nothing so yeh

[pseudo bone]

This is my resume and i have been applying for android jobs as well

i recently got an email from a company to submit an assignment

regarding android app in kotlin. i havent used kotlin till now .i have to learn everything from scratch to understand the online tutorials in order to make that app. my question is should i learn this language just to hopefully get this junior level position

or should i focus on applying for position that match my skillset better

i am from germany. and advice that you give will be much appreciated

[dense mesa]

You're not allowed to advertise

[granite void]

I am lost, tell me what to do?

Is AI and ML hard? I always get scared.

[dense mesa]

It's hard at the start while you learn the maths, but stuff slowly clicks into place. Are you asking in context of careers?

[granite void]

What to learn in Maths?

[modest phoenix]

Calculus, Statistics, Probability and Linear Algebra

[mortal wedge]

AI and ML are easy to implement in Python but harder to understand. With guidance from a senior or subject matter expert as to which model to use and how to interpret the results, then it's really straightforward. If you want to become a subject matter expert in this area or a senior in this area, then it is vital to know the maths as previously mentioned.

[mortal wedge]

I would generally focus on applying for positions that match your skillset better. I understand the desire to get a job right away for anything and if you want to take the time to learn and do an assignment for a position go for it, but it's going to be a lot of effort for just an increased chance of getting that specific position. It's up to you, but it wouldn't be worth it to me unless that was something I thought would be useful to learn in the long term

[mortal wedge]

Small companies give you a lot of breadth. This can be good or bad, depending on your temperament and mentality. This is because small companies generally can't afford to fill all the different roles of the stack with multiple people, so you generally fulfill more roles at once. I think it's great for someone in early career to get a taste test and experience in different roles that at a larger company some positions (like software architect) would only be going to people with 5-15 years of experience.

Large companies give you a lot of depth. They can afford to fill all their roles, so they want people who are experts at the one thing they want them to focus on. Pay and benefits are generally better as well. But you generally have less autonomy, the projects you propose and work on have to be agreed upon by various stakeholders and since, as you mentioned, you don't have full control of the pipeline from start to finish sometimes you have to deal with incompetent coworkers who block you from completing / implementing tasks. I've also seen a trend where it's much easier to get fired at a larger company than a small one, this is because small companies generally don't want to shoulder the costs of seeking a replacement and don't want to lose their only X, even if they are not performing optimally.

Ideally where you want to place yourself in the long term is up to you. They all have their pros and cons. I'm personally working at a venture right now, it's larger than most startups but still <100 employees.

[buoyant seal]

Some person mention article, where the will of company to fire you depends on their domain and how they see IT developers in general for their business value.
I work in outsourcing company, and I bring direct profit to the company. Hopefully it should be a strong enough position.
But yeah, understandably... small companies are going to be screwed much higher in case of quiting
The startup i quited, was existing only because of my pressence. It died with my exit at the same kind of day. The owner tried to find the replacement... but the requirements became sort of ridiculous to find people for a similar cheap salary (he was not willing to find people for higher salary of course) (plus the general cost of finding people is yeah screwable)

[mortal wedge]

There's three steps to having a successful career and unfortunately they don't necessarily have overlapping skillsets.

1. Getting an interview
2. Nailing the interview
3. Not getting fired

It sounds like you're stuck at step 1. The primary thing here will be your resume. I don't know the specifics of your situation, but you do want to make sure you're presenting whatever your situation is in the best possible light. I've been on both sides of the coin here, I've applied to tons of positions but I'm currently in a position to affect hiring decisions. But I'll be honest, whenever I see a really ugly resume my gut instinct is to throw it out. I don't and try to evaluate it fairly on the merits, but part of me is still screaming at me to throw it out. If you're wondering why people are so critical of small mistakes or visual choices on resumes, it's because by the time it gets past HR/Recruiters it goes to people who, and I cannot stress this enough, don't want to be reviewing resumes and just want to get back to our jobs. There's usually multiple resumes to review and it's not like anyone has had formal training in resume review. They just want to decide who has the best one and move forward.

[buoyant seal]

dunno. I just don't really intend to be long in any company. I think being for like 2 years (3 at maximum) is already the limit
I am afraid to be stuck in one place without growth? In my job market area I think it is better to change the job at least every 2 years
May be once I met the company where I paid good and having on edge skills growth, perhaps I will think being there for longer. But I don't think I will encounter such company soon.

[mortal wedge]

IT really depends on the company culture, some companies recognize talent and want to cultivate it. But it's also a common prolem in the tech sector that if you want a raise/promotion you go to a different company. Some people leave for higher positions at a different company and eventually find their way back to the same one, but now at a higher position/pay.

[outer dragon]

This does make sense to me. I also read some resume advice from TechLead the YouTuber and he said something similar. So I definitely am going to go to the single column format, and I am listening to everyone's advice here. If I sound contentious at all it's just because this whole process is a little bit frustrating/exasperating, but I do appreciate all the help and am listening

[mortal wedge]

Oh, it's absolutely frustrating and exasperating. But resume building is a skill just like any other skill and it's worth devoting the time to learning. I went from getting no responses to getting responses all the time once I really buffed my resume building stat.

[outer dragon]

Any tips on mine other than what was already said?

[mortal wedge]

Can you repost it? I haven't seen it yet

[outer dragon]

From what I've gathered so far it's mostly an issue of my skills just not being quite "there" yet

recursive_error did mention some cleanup I can do. Changing title, improving descriptions, more specific courses, single column

[mortal wedge]

Got it. So, one thing to keep in mind is that this is a resume whose visuals may work for a person, but when it goes through an ATS (Applicant Tracking System) most resumes are converted to plaintext. What this means is that you may get weird stuff like "col_header_table1928" or something appearing on the resume as this whole thing is converted to text. I personally don't like resumes of this style, but they may work if you have a referral at the company. I would have a separate resume that can be converted to plaintext when you're just applying off company sites without referrals.

[outer dragon]

Ok no problem. I used a resume service and they have a lot of templates to choose from. I believe some are optimized for ATS

[mortal wedge]

Fantastic!

[gilded valley]

The only project you list is the kind of thing which there's tonnes of tutorials out there for - everything that's on this CV seems like hacky stuff, which is fine and useful, but you need something more material to back it up. Something like a full stack web app which is shown off on an otherwise active GH page

[outer dragon]

After I finished my crypto bot I saw someone selling a course on Twitter for like $180 that was basically the same exact thing I just built lol

I was like

[mortal wedge]

I also recommend, for the positions you really want, to customize your resume to the position. You don't have to rewrite it from scratch, but run it through a service like jobscan.co which will mimic an ATS and tell you what percent match a recruiter is seeing when they look at your resume. Recruiters/HR don't have the technical expertise to know what you're talking about, so they'll just be looking at the percent match on their ATS of choice and briefly scanning the resume if you're lucky.

[gilded valley]

if I google "crypto trading but tutorial" there's a bunch of youtube videos and whatnot that come up doing near enough the same thing - I really don't think it's enough to make you stand out. And right now, there's not really anything on your CV which would make someone want to invite you for an interview afaics

[outer dragon]

Oh that's interesting. I didn't know that

[outer dragon]

Ok so what type/scale of a web app should I be thinking about?

I suppose type doesn't matter

[gilded valley]

a full stack web app deployed and hosted somewhere would be what I would be aiming for. Something like a tracker for a game you play or for some hobby you're involved in - a guitar learning tracker site or something - made with a SPA JS frontend, and backed by an SQL database

[mortal wedge]

Even a website that someone can create an account and log in to and do almost anything will help out a lot.

[gilded valley]

yeah - you'd want to make a site where anyone could sign up and start doing something useful. It doesn't have to be the best thing in the world, but something that demonstrates you are capable of delivering utility on your own

[graceful mason]

I think your skills should mostly be a summary of projects/work experience
What I mean is you list CSS/HTML/SQL/Javascript but don't have any examples to demonstrate you can use them

[outer dragon]

I did consider making a web app that would allow me to interact with the data from the crypto bot. If I made something like that with a user login and data visualization and some selectable data transformation features would that work?

[gilded valley]

Probably. You'd definitely want to use something other than Dash for the frontend though. And doing something other than the crypto stuff would probably help show that you're a well-rounded person

[outer dragon]

There are some examples on the pages that I linked to that are blacked out, but yeah I understand. I do need to create specific resumes for different jobs

I have some old front end stuff on CodePen. It's all pretty old though. I'll have to keep building

[graceful mason]

Most of the time the person reading your CV isn't going to check those pages out, that's for when you get past the initial selection processes

[outer dragon]

Ok. I think the bottom line is I need to be thinking bigger

[mortal wedge]

I can say I find it really annoying when somebody has links on the resumes that say they go to projects but then go to nowhere or don't work.

[outer dragon]

I need to make more impressive stuff

[mortal wedge]

Like, not annoying to throw out the resume or anything, but you don't want a decision maker annoyed when reviewing your resume, lol

[outer dragon]

Right lol

The crypto bot wasn't simple though, just saying. And it wasn't from a tutorial. Sucks that there's no way I can express that

[mortal wedge]

Unfortunately, your first developer job is highly competitive, due to the sheer number of applicants you'll be squaring up against. Some larger companies it's normal to get literally thousands of applicants for a single job posting.

Please don't advertise here

[outer dragon]

Yeah. I've also heard I should start a dev blog

[dense mesa]

<@&831776746206265384>

[gilded valley]

you're coming in with no degree and no relevant experience, you really need to work hard to stand out enough to even get a response. If you check the pins, there's a reddit post from a guy who got his first job in a situation very similar to yours, and the volume of stuff he studied in order to get there is pretty insane

[mortal wedge]

It's definitely doable and you'll be fine once you get that job, but this is going to be your biggest hurdle

[dark arrow]

@solemn canopy please don't post job postings, its against our rules

[outer dragon]

Sheesh. Yeah it makes sense. I mentioned it earlier but it's tough for me to be super consistent because I work 70 hours a week as a truck driver and that's all basically wasted time

[delicate bane]

yeah there isnt. but if you get to the interview stage, you would be able to prove that. but ditto to what others said, especially the part about more projects focusing on web dev since thats what you mention in your intro part

[gilded valley]

fwiw, you should definitely consider the fact I ( and others giving the same advice) might be completely wrong - you can try just throwing out applications and seeing if you get any responses, but my guess is that it's not super likely to work

[mortal wedge]

Which will work sometimes, but be expectede to be applying to 20+ jobs a day, and that's on the lower end.

[outer dragon]

Yeah I've applied to a lot with an old bad resume and no responses. I've applied to a few with this resume but it's only been a day or two

[gilded valley]

a suggestion might be to try listening to audiobooks and podcasts about relevant areas - it's not near as valuable as actually doing things, but it's at least working towards your goal

[outer dragon]

Yeah I do. All day lol

[mortal wedge]

Another thing you can do is network. This also requires hustle, but if someone at a company is willing to vouch for you, you'll bypass the ATS step which is probably what's chucking your resume out.

[outer dragon]

[gilded valley]

then I'd suggest looking for some books on more relevant topics - I'm sure there's decent architecture, database design, and security oriented books which could let you start adding some more specific skills to your CV.

[outer dragon]

This is the current one

[mortal wedge]

For a lot of companies there are referral/signing bonuses. For example, a friend of mine has offered to refer me to his company and he would make 20 grand if I joined and stayed for a period of time.

[gilded valley]

the value I can see in* the books is to use them as a sort of force multiplier for the work you actually do - so you can make the time when you are free more valuable. So you can make a decent database schema, web-app architecture, or learn how to harden a server in 50hrs instead of 150hrs.

[mortal wedge]

But to be fair, that amount is probably for more senior positions

[outer dragon]

Ok. More work. Better work. Be the best

Ezpz. Lol and network

[mortal wedge]

It's going to be a lot of work, but incredibly rewarding once you get there

[outer dragon]

Okay one more question. I maybe should have mentioned this but I'm not really trying to get a job at like Google or anything. If it's going to take me that much work to get an entry level Dev position, would it maybe be more worth it to just try and build a service that I can sell or continue freelancing?

[gilded valley]

I've heard that there's very good money to be made working as a ReactJS contractor on Toptal

[mortal wedge]

That's ultimately your call.

[outer dragon]

Toptal seemed very competitive from what I saw

[solemn canopy]

Alright, sorry all.

[mortal wedge]

No problem. It's just that it's impossible for us to vet all the positions someone might advertise/share.

[gilded valley]

the problem with Fiverr/Upwork is that it takes a ton of effort to get to the point where you're making any money because you need reviews etc, and even when you do, you're competing with people in India/Pakistan/Other low CoL countries which means it's very hard to get an edge. It seems difficult to get started as a solo contractor with 0 relevant network, but if you think you can do it, it's areasonable shot

[outer dragon]

Okay I appreciate all the advice guys. I think basically I'll just keep working and keep iterating and keep updating my resume and keep applying but I appreciate all the tips and it's good to know what people are looking for on a resume

[mortal wedge]

I did contract work for a while, mainly to get relevant and recent job experience. The issue I personally ran into was that I needed a more stable income. I was a contractor at the start of the pandemic and work started drying up fast. So after my next contract, the company wanted me to do another, I told them that if they wanted more work from me I needed full time employment.

We're happy to help! We've all been there at the start of our careers and many of us are self-taught like yourself.

[outer dragon]

Someday I'll get there 🤞 lol

Actually... I just had another greedy thought. Anyone willing to do a code review to see if I'm accurately representing the project on my resume or if I could represent it better? I know that's a big ask so not expecting anyone to want to do it. Just thought I'd throw it out there 😆

Nvm lol. You guys would probably puke at seeing my code

[gilded valley]

I don't think there's actually that much value in it for you to go through that - whether someone says it's good or terrible doesn't really change any future action you will take

[brittle thorn]

Yeah attend in person meetups if ever they return in your area

[agile turtle]

guys i am just starting to learn and to create videos teaching computer science , i am going through the learning curve , i am doing it because it helps me revise and also may help me in getting a job easier , i wanna know will this youtube game affect my studies ?

[cosmic skiff]

No,yo learn as you product

[spark zinc]

hi guys, due to personal issues, my gpa this semester TANKED (down from 3.5-ish to 3.2-ish)

this is because i failed my software design course

im wondering that, since ill be applying to canadian internships in the fall of this year, will having a fail on my transcript matter that much? ive heard that employers usually dont even look at ur transcript but ive also been told that a failed course is really bad

can someone provide some insight? does good experience cancel out a fail on a transcript? what is your brutally honest opinion on my situation?

keep in mind this is for CANADIAN internships, i have no interest in going to america

Thanks in advance, and please ping if you reply!

[peak halo]

@vapid jay I deleted your message, since we don't allow soliciting

[vapid jay]

i did say i hated the actions of another server

but the font stuff and UI/UX stuff was just advice

[delicate bane]

i just wanted to say, i am glad i am seeing more apprenticeship opportunities opening up, so if you think an apprenticeship is applicable to your particular situation, i would highly recommend it

[mortal wedge]

Wow, that's really cool

[summer roost]

Do the companies you apply for internships at get to see your transcript? I'm not from Canada, but that sounds surprising to me.

here in the US, the only way they could get your transcript is if you send it to them or grant the school permission to send it on your behalf, and either of those would be strange things for a company to ask for.

[delicate bane]

sometimes they do ask for it (my current internship did). for what reason? im unsure, but i sent them my unofficial transcript

are there applicants that lie about their education credentials? thats a potential reason i could see why a company might ask for it

[summer roost]

there are, though it's obviously unwise to.

[ruby zephyr]

Hi guys which degree do you guys think have a better career path? ai, data science and bioinfomatic (data science in medical way)

[gilded valley]

Depends on the country, the university, and your personal career goals

[karmic blade]

Hello everyone. I learn python from 2 years. I know OOP programming, JSON , tkinter and some API's. I train my skills every day. I don't know what's next. Where i can get a experience in bigger project? Maybe i have to learn something more?

[vapid jay]

internshiips maybe

[mellow cypress]

is there a super beginner channel? lol

[ivory sluice]

we try to always be accommodating to users of all skill levels as per our #code-of-conduct ! check out #python-discussion to get started if you're super lost

if the pace of that channel is too much for you, you can also claim an individual help channel #❓｜how-to-get-help

[mellow cypress]

i did get some help in #help-chili. thank you

[fickle flax]

@karmic blade it also good to learn how to take requirements and make ULM out of it then code it. In addition software patterns like SOLID or builder pattern etc

[weary tundra]

hey, do you think that python is still worthy to learn knowing that all beginners in programming start by it and, therefore, there is a huge offer of python devs ?

[dense mesa]

Not all beginners start with Python, obviously this server is biased towards it though.

The second point doesn't follow either. Not everyone who has a first language (Python or not) is going to become a developer in it.

[weary tundra]

you're right indeed

[gilded valley]

I would definitely say there is a surplus of Python developers relative to other languages. I see very few jobs where Python is the main ask, but plenty of jobs asking for Java/C#/C++/Golang

[balmy scaffold]

Hi guys I am gonna start learning Python for data analysis. Does anyone have some tips and useful info to share with a noob?

[onyx locust]

could somone evaluate the best degree for me, Computer Science or Software Engineering. Im somone who wants to be a tech lead some day, im already wel verrsed in many modern languages and i belive that ill be ahead of 60% of the population in either degree. I want to develop apps and software for companies and have a decent employablitiy but im very biased towards Engineering(software), does anyone know the reality? i dont want to learn and be equipped with computation knowledge, i want to be equipped to design software and be valuable for a company.

[gilded valley]

What country are you in?

[onyx locust]

Australia

[gilded valley]

Probably depends quite a lot on details specific to the Australian job market and university system.

If it were the UK, then the relative quality of your university matters a lot more than degree title

[summer roost]

Software Engineering sounds like it might be the more appropriate degree for you, based on everything you're saying. It sounds like you understand what CS is, understand what SE is, and you're more interested in the SE direction than the CS direction.

[graceful mason]

In some universities SE and CS are fundamentally very similar, for each university look at the modules and see which you think you'd prefer

[summer roost]

they're usually very similar, but where they differ, it's usually because SE adds courses that focus on design and project management, and removes courses that teach things about the theory of computation or low level computer architecture

[karmic blade]

Thank you for help

[tacit quiver]

Hey guys

Any developpers or programmers dm me pls

[strange apex]

hi guys, what should I do after I have build some simple python program, like hangman, calculator and tic tac toe? ( if I want to work as a programmer as soon as possible)

[fickle flax]

@strange apex you can but I would say dont build something that everyone else does

Remember that there is competition with those who have education or experience

So you want to showcase something that proves experience.

[strange apex]

hmm, sorry for my bad english. I meant I already build those simple program and is wondering my next step

[fickle flax]

Have you seen your job boards in your area (linkedin , indeed)

[strange apex]

have no idea what that is

[fickle flax]

Oh You are in north america? It because thats what is used here for job applications

[strange apex]

no. ilive in europe

[fickle flax]

Oh ok, then try to find out online what companies are looking for entry level developers or internship

That will tell you if you are ready to apply which is the next step

[strange apex]

so I am ready? dont i need more knowledge or something

[graceful mason]

roadmap.sh

[fickle flax]

If you feel you can do the job descriptions like a few of them then apply

If cant get interviews because maybe resume isnt impressive that means you would need help to improve to pass ATS and learn more skills that is required for jobs like the roadmap mentioned above

[strange apex]

Alrighty, thanks for explaining

[strange apex]

ty too

[ocean sandal]

I have to pass a python assessment in order to move forward with an interview but I told them I didn't have strong programming skills yet lol. I have maybe 6 months experience with Python. Think I'll be able to do it?

[true harness]

how are we supposed to answer that, just try your best

[ocean sandal]

I was asking based on my experience level if that should be enough to score well as I've never taken a programming assessment for a job before and thank you will do!

[fickle flax]

Well it hard to quantify 6 months python experience. You will find out once you do assessment, just try your best

[gilded valley]

If everyone here said "yes" or "no", would that change anything you'd do?

[dense mesa]

We don't know what your 6 months experience is like, we don't know what the test is like, or how it's structured, you've not given a company name either

If you've never taken an assessment like this before, you're not going in with any prior experience of that specific format. Make of that what you will

[thick saffron]

do you guys lie in resume about your school? I am not a CS major but they require it.

[true harness]

they require you to lie?

ohhhhh. lie about what school you went to? no, that would be strange

[vapid jay]

i mostly like doing backend stuff like api wrappers and other tools useful for developers what do you guys recommend my career should be? i was thinking a back end software engineer but im not quite sure if it would suit what i like any suggestions?

[vapid jay]

honestly i think robots and artificial intelligence and machine learning is really cool

[vapid jay]

mhm it seems like a cool topic ive never discovered it really i will probably look into it tho i always like to try something new!

[brazen linden]

im not sure what field of programming i want to go in

[vapid jay]

well what do you like

[brazen linden]

theres game dev, web dev, front end and backend, theres also ai/machine learning, and data science stuff

ive dabbled into all of them and i genuinely like aspects of them all and im kind of lost where to go

[vapid jay]

well which one were u the best at

[brazen linden]

hmm, game dev, web dev, both front end and backend, for sure i think

but it kinda evens out there

[vapid jay]

game dev is really good but unless your a really good pro your game wont get far
web dev is kinda saturated with tons of ppl doing front end, but if your good at backend then thats a really good skill

i recommend ai and machine learning because its in big demand and not a ton of people are doing it, (if your looking for like a future job or anything)

[brazen linden]

i was thinking about full stack, how is the demand for that

[vapid jay]

full stack is really in demand

[brazen linden]

yeah i see, i like how ai works i think i would like it, i just feel like id be missing out or something from the others

[vapid jay]

information from business insider:

1. Artificial intelligence specialist · 2. Data Scientist · 3. Robotics Engineer · 4. Full Stack Engineer · 5. Cloud Engineer
   in terms of demand and growth

[brazen linden]

ooh okay

i think then those two might be my options

[vapid jay]

which ones?

[brazen linden]

fullstack and ai

[vapid jay]

yea id definitely get experience in both because by time you are at the age to get a job (if you are already then dont mind this) by time your at that age either one of them could have taken the top spot as most in demand job

[undone willow]

Job details
Salary
$50,000 - $60,000 a year
Job Type
Full-time
Contract
Benefits
Pulled from the full job description
Health insurance
Full Job Description
Work experience as a Python Developer
Expertise in at least one popular Python framework (like Django, Flask or Pyramid)
Familiarity with front-end technologies (like JavaScript and HTML5)
Job Types: Full-time, Contract

Pay: $50,000.00 - $60,000.00 per year

Benefits:

Health insurance
Schedule:

8 hour shift
Work Location: One location

========================

Does anyone know how hard this would be to get for an entry level programmer? I know Django and sorta know HTML5. But not Javascraipt. I am curious what others think of this job.

[vapid jay]

what company is this from

[undone willow]

I28 Technologies Corporation

I found this job in Indeed.

[vapid jay]

btw if you want to learn AI id highly recommend python and C++

[vapid jay]

have you done any more research on it

[undone willow]

Honestly no. I prob should.

I am interested because I have no experience so it seems like I may have a chance.

[vapid jay]

i looked at the google reviews and saw this? they only have 6 reviews so id take it with a grain of salt

i litterally have no idea what that means but yeah

[true harness]

60k sounds pretty bad, compared to what you could be getting at other places

[vapid jay]

^

[brazen linden]

right now i think im trying to go into web dev, or well, i indirectly am, but currently what im trying to learn in order: advanced css -> django -> react

or something like that

[undone willow]

What if your brand new? 60k sounds great when I make 15$ atm. Not that saying it isn't low but just that it still looks pretty good.

[brazen linden]

ive used only flask for a long time but i dont think many companies hire that compared to django

[undone willow]

cries in Flask after trying to learn it

[brazen linden]

did you find django easier?

[undone willow]

I have never used it personally. I wish I could find someone to hellp me learn it.

What are some other job sites for programmers?

[vapid jay]

which ones do you use now

[undone willow]

Just Indeed atm. I used to like browing stackoverflow but it seems they want to end that part of the website to concentrate in other things.

I also have an interest in looking for a job overseas in Japan (I am from the U.S) but thats more of a niche that is hard to finish.

[vapid jay]

linkedln for sure

im not really looking for a job atm (im still in high school) so im worried about first hardening my skills but linkedln and indeed are really good sites
a google search could find you other sites that match what your looking for though

[undone willow]

27 y.o. I know the basics and how to work with a framework in Flask and HTML. My main goal is Backend and later fullstack. I have no degree though so its tough finding my first job. I sometimes wonder if I should blindly appply despite seeing a "REQUIRED Bachelors degree" requirement.

I find a lot of jobs with Revature that I am trying to avoid because I have heard its a scam company.

Does anyone know if Front End Devs have an easier time getting entry level jobs? Or is it the same problem?

[vapid jay]

is it still possible to get a degree?

[undone willow]

Potentially but it depends. I am getting a bachelors in business. And i'd have to go back for a CS degree after walking away the first time. I had a teacher who ruined I think hated his job and it effected me.

[vapid jay]

Is there a different teacher now?

[undone willow]

He retired. This was like a year ago.

Now I need to get loans and hopefully be able to pay for everything from there. They have an online BA Computer Science program that I can go back to. But I need a stable job. I'm thinking of going into teaching maybe or something else. Or develop my skills and get a job.

[vapid jay]

So is it an option to go back into CS after leaving

[undone willow]

I mean in general yes. But it depends on whether I can help my mom pay for house and stuff.

[vapid jay]

honestly i dont know much about getting a job and stuff so you might have to ask someone else for advice on this but i think if you wanna get a job you should at least have a degree of some sort in a computer related field
just to show to the job your applying for that you actually have some experience and maybe try and get a few internships

[ocean sandal]

Just my two cents regarding not having a CS degree... I have one and the market has been awful regardless. Most of the interviews I have gotten were a result from recruiters hitting my inbox on LinkedIn, submitting me directly

[summer roost]

18 year olds with no degree have stories about applying to 100 jobs without ever getting a single interview. 22 year olds with degrees don't have that same experience, from what I've seen.

[ocean sandal]

I have a BASc in Network Engineering and have been rejected by the hundreds. It could be an anomaly but like I said just my two cents

[summer roost]

that's a Bachelor of Applied Science in Network Engineering? Is that in addition to a Computer Science degree?

also, what country are you in?

[ocean sandal]

I'm in the United States. That is the CS degree lol

[summer roost]

OK - I'm also in the United States, but so far as I know, Network Engineering is an entirely separate field from Computer Science. In my mind they barely overlap... Did you have courses that covered Data Structures and Algorithms, Software Design, Computer Architecture, and Theory of Computation?

I'd have expected Network Engineers to mostly learn about creating physical networks - OSI model, ethernet, IP, TCP, UDP, fiber vs twisted pair vs coax, crosstalk, attenuation, switches vs routers, BGP, DNS, and so on - all of which is either not at all or barely covered by a typical CS degree

in particular, I think of network engineers as being more involved at the hardware level, and computer scientists being more involved at the software level. Network engineers work in data centers, computer scientists generally work as software devs in offices, or as researchers in labs

[summer roost]

also, are you applying to software dev jobs or network engineering jobs?

or something in between?

[ocean sandal]

Yeah it was an interesting program kind of like a hybrid. Idk if I can post links but these are the areas of interest listed:

AREAS OF INTEREST
Computer & Information Science
Engineering & Technology
Interdisciplinary Studies
Mathematics, Statistics & Data Science

I've mostly been applying for Cloud Engineering roles

[summer roost]

links to the program curriculum? That would be fine

[ocean sandal]

Cool here you go https://www.arizona.edu/degree-search/majors/applied-computing-network-operations-emphasis

[summer roost]

the listed courses for the 3rd and 4th year there don't seem to overlap at all with what I think of as a CS degree. Did your courses involve much software development?

I expect you'd have a lot more luck applying to jobs with either "network engineer" or "systems administrator" or "Dev Ops" or "SRE" / "Site Reliability Engineer" than applying for jobs as a "Cloud Engineer" or a "Software Engineer"

[ocean sandal]

Correct, yeah, the Computational Thinking course was more or less Python 101. The jobs I've gotten interviews for were some form of Cloud Engineering and DevOps that require a healthy mix of everything. That's why I had to take a Python assessment for the most recent.

I definitely get what you're saying though. If I had another degree that was pure "Software Engineering" then I'd probably not be struggling in getting interviewed for these roles

[summer roost]

yeah - you're missing a lot of the classes that aspiring software devs who have taken a CS degree will have taken. If you are most interested in software development, you might find that taking a boot camp helps to give you some of those skills

[delicate bane]

if youre brand new, you should look into getting an apprenticeship, theyre paying you to learn too

[ocean sandal]

I am, yeah, I'm kind of sad I feel like I chose the wrong emphasis. Thank you, by the way, I really appreciate the advice. I think you likely solved the problem I've been having lol

[delicate bane]

many programs are similar where a BS isnt necessarily always required

[summer roost]

They have a bachelor's degree, but it's not a Bachelor of Arts or a Bachelor of Science, it's a Bachelor of Applied Science with a focus on Network Engineering

but the point about there being programs that would help close the gap and give them the development skills is a good point

[undone willow]

Where can I apply for this? How can I search them up?

[undone willow]

Is Jobhat a real website? Angie used this?

https://www.jobhat.com/reg/create-employer-profile

[karmic merlin]

!warn 968004614735683604 our server is not an ad-board. Don't use it as such.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @gentle sparrow.

[delicate bane]

this one was tech talent south iirc. but you should just search up "technology apprenticeships" in general since i believe many of them have opened up their spring applications

keep in mind, you are competing against other applicants, so i would def make sure you have some good projects that can help showcase your skills on your resume

[carmine monolith]

hi

[dense mesa]

Please remove this message and ask in #python-discussion or go to #❓｜how-to-get-help . This channel is for careers discussion

[uncut sedge]

yes sorry I am new and didn't know where to ask.

[crystal flume]

Should I study software engineering

[near ocean]

is that the whole question? how are we supposed to answer that

[undone willow]

I’ve read this line for so long. I wonder if I can even some up with a good idea or something to re work for that.

Thank you though Rex. I’ll try to set something up.

[dense mesa]

Does it matter what we respond with lol

[glass moon]

Hii

[brazen lagoon]

Maybe

[delicate bane]

we should have the bot have an 8ball function for these moments

[dense mesa]

True lol

[dark arrow]

||we do||

[delicate bane]

.8ball should i use an 8ball to decide my future career options?

aww it only works in #sir-lancebot-playground

[smoky quest]

The neat thing is you don't even need a good idea. You only need something to show your skills.
The main constraints on the idea is that it should be something interesting to you enough so that it's easier to find the motivation to work on it.
Other than that, as long as it's something you can show in a professional environment, no one will care about the idea.

[full temple]

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CodePath is currently looking for volunteers to serve as industry mentors for these students and to help facilitate small group practice pods for one hour per week this summer. Click the link below to find out more and apply before May 13th! https://info.codepath.org/summer-technical-mentor

[novel raptor]

Hey everyone. Does anyone know if a devops engineering position is a good starting place for someone wanting to get into software/tech industry? I have some experience but not yet at a large company or big team. So its hard toget my foot in the door as i come from a different engineering background

[narrow kettle]

Jobs on UpWork, what do you think?

[smoky quest]

It would be a detour. And like all detours, the amount of efforts to get to your final destination will depend on your skills, luck, opportunities...

[gilded valley]

<@&831776746206265384>

[analog sun]

!cban 445614054698909741 nsfw

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @wary shadow permanently.

[novel raptor]

detour in what way? I took a masters in big data and worked for a while for a startup programming, but not super solid experience as I was mostly self taught and didn't have a mentor. I am currently in a different position where I'm not doing tech related work (at most some SAS)

[smoky quest]

I may have read too fast your initial question. If your goal is to develop software, then devops is a detour.

If your goal is to work in a tech company, then it's no different than in any other industry.

If you have a master in CS, then I don't see why you would not be able to applied to your target role right away

[novel raptor]

I don't have a ton of background on devops, but isn't it still software development, oriented towards automation?

[smoky quest]

devops is a culture, not a role.
But the term got overloaded by candidates/companies and end up beign a lot a mix of ops/release with sometimes a hint of dev (that hint may be stronger depending on the company)

[novel raptor]

The masters was a bit broad and short. So I got mostly experience in data science related context, so data mining, machine learning and such. I like this, but I am still lacking more "formal" software dev experience. I have applied to a few of these positions, and I could likely get in. Problem is that data science/data engineer roles mean different things to different companies, so most stuff I see it's either more analyst oriented or they require more "formal" dev experience (or a phd, etc)

[smoky quest]

the development done in devops roles, will also frequently be considered weaker than normal development. So you would have to demonstrate you are a strong candidate

[novel raptor]

I see, so it might not necessarily open many doors in I want to move later on to a more software development role

[smoky quest]

But is it a masters in CS with a major in big data or is it a masters in big data?

[smoky quest]

I mean it's better than going from QA, but there is still a "cost" to break the wall

[novel raptor]

it's a masters in Big Data, my background is not CS but different engineering

I hear you, I am currently trying to break that wall lol

just trying to find a way in, as I know I can progress faster once inside, but currently a lot of my time is burnt on other stuff

[smoky quest]

Have you applied to dev roles for juniors/1-3 years of xp? And how did it go?

[novel raptor]

I'm starting to, thing is the work market in spain is not great I think. Lots of expectations for little pay and such, so you barely see any positions labeled junior

[smoky quest]

Are you open to move or remote jobs?

[novel raptor]

definitely remote, but moving less so atm

[gilded valley]

What country? For what kind of companies?

Country definitely matters.

Also your level of education and experience

[near ocean]

What is that purpose

Do you have any projects related online?

[gilded valley]

What country are you in? US, EU, India?

[near ocean]

So you have no work experience and no hobbyist projects?

[gilded valley]

If you're in the EU, currently studying for a PHD, and know basic python and data structures and algorithms - then you should be qualified for a fair few internships. My suggestion is to just google computer science student cv or something and follow a guide on there

if you want more specific advice when you've already made your CV, then come back and post a version with your personal information removed

you have 0 experience? You've never worked a job?

any kind whatsoever - delivering pizza, photocopying in an office, working in a call centre, working as a TA alongside your PHD

that's experience for the experience section - you can talk about the relevant transferable skills

have you made any kind of CV at all yet? If so, then posting a depersonalised version here would be useful

[near ocean]

Do you teach classes in comp chemistry? Are you a lab assistant?

[gilded valley]

well - make one following the formats you find online, then ask again here

[near ocean]

Also part of computational anything is programming, idk why you keep saying youre not a programmer

[gilded valley]

you can include a broad strokes outline of that stuff in your non-academic one as well

[near ocean]

Programmers are people who program, it could be for software dev or it could be for research or anything else that uses code

[gilded valley]

make something - do your best effort - then ask for feedback

no one can realistically baby you through it step by step, and the people here aren't going to give much better advice than google

at least not for the broad strokes stuff - when it gets to specifics feedback is a lot more useful

hide them then
take a sc and black them out

[restive tangle]

Hey there!

Would like to request some thoughts/your view on my situation

I'm DevOps/SRE/Platform engineer and I use Python for some automation routines: a little bit of HTTP requests, a little bit of metrics exporting, a little bit of service/API stuff
But since my tasks are focused on infrastructure part, I have insufficient time to invest into code style, tests, overall architecture
This makes my inner perfectionist unhappy

• Do you think it's a good idea to make a switch from SRE to a Developer?
• Do you think senior role-A becomes junior/middle/senior role-B? Is it about overall problem solving skill/previous experience or more about role context and specific tools?

Thanks in advance!

[gilded valley]

• Do you think it's a good idea to make a switch from SRE to a Developer?
  Are you asking about this from an economic perspective?

[smoky quest]

Can you also rephrase your second question? I don't follow it

[restive tangle]

As far as I know, compensations for same grade SRE/Developer are about to be equal, or at least comparable, so financical part is not a priority
Please let me know if I'm wrong here

[smoky quest]

It's comparable but dev is slightly higher

[gilded valley]

no - that sounds about right. But if you're not asking from the economic perspective, then "should I" is a purely personal one which people here can't really answer - if you don't like being an SRE or think you'd like being a SDE, then sure, switching might make sense, but that's all on you to figure out

[restive tangle]

Sorry, not a native speaker 😭

Do you think person's grade drops to 0 when switching to other role?
... to 50%?
... stays the same?

[smoky quest]

It's a cost function. The further away from what you know, the more you have to catch up

[gilded valley]

Comparing Glassdoor results for "Site Reliability Engineer" vs "Software Engineer", SRE is about 50% better paid in the UK (63 vs 44k)

comparing SRE to senior software engineer, it's 63k for SRE vs 59k for senior dev

[gilded valley]

so a glance at the first data available seems to say the opposite of this

[restive tangle]

Seems like I need to make a transfer, but sort of soft and slow.
I guess I'm afraid to lose too much and find myself at the beginning of the road.
Not a bad thing, to be honest, just a little bit scary to leave "comfort zone".

[gilded valley]

there's plenty on there to get you in the door for internship interviews. Condense it down onto a single page, add your experience teaching, add all the relevant tech skills you have

[smoky quest]

too long, you need to reduce it

[restive tangle]

Wow! Is it a gross amount?

[gilded valley]

then you have plenty of experience - I'm not sure what you're asking. Follow the guidelines in an article you'll find from a google search and you'll have a perfectly reasonable CV

[smoky quest]

up to you

[gilded valley]

yes, Glassdoor also isn't super accurate - but is almost certainly better than anecdotal experience

[vapid jay]

damn is that your resume

[gilded valley]

Condense the publications down a bunch, and beef up the skills section to make a big deal about all the computing stuff you have done and it will be fine