career-advice

[summer roost]

Java is quite heavily used for Android development, AFAIK - as is Kotlin

[smoky quest]

and backend

[ivory talon]

except that using things they didn't teach will just give you a zero because they'll want for you to do things the dumb way they taught so far instead of the right way

[summer roost]

eh, that's usually only true for particularly poor teachers. But yeah, that can happen.

[smoky quest]

That wasn't really my experience though. As long as it fits within the theme

[ancient star]

I'm 'smoothly' running a 3.77 or so (still waiting on final grades...) so I think I can focus on maximizing my learning safely! Yeah, that's the main reason I even bring up Java (because of the use in Android)

[ancient star]

I agree with this, I had to use a lot of resources outside of my Python course to actually nail the content, and my instructor feedback was all positive because I was taking it on myself to fill in the gaps. Although, I guess a lot can be said about a course that leaves you needing other resources... Shrug.

[peak halo]

I learned all the Java material that my program ever planned to teach me (which probably wasn't all that in depth) before enrolling, and those classes not actually being any work gave me more time to focus on courses that might have flunked me out.

[summer roost]

I suspect those classes wouldn't have been much work for you anyway, given your "which probably wasn't all that in depth" caveat.

[delicate bane]

thats when you double major instead

[delicate bane]

any idea what type of roles you think you want to focus on? that will help with projects for resumes too

not just languages

[ancient star]

That's how I feel about my current HTML class. Sincerely, a whole 8 week class on HTML?

[ancient star]

I'm not really sure yet. That's why I'm pursuing 'generalized' knowledge currently haha. I have an interest in development, data analysis Android app development... But I have absolutely no clue where I want my career to actually reside. .-. I'm really indecisive because I'm interested in pretty much everything at one level or the other.

[delicate bane]

thats ok, you should just try multiple things and just eliminate what you dont like; thats a common strategy.

the more things you try, the more you can eliminate and find what you actually like and what to invest your time and energy towards

[ancient star]

I'm currently pursuing an AS in Computer Science because it was the most generalized degree I could think of haha. I plan to pursue a BS in something or the other afterwards, assuming I don't land an enjoyable job before then.

[delicate bane]

keep an open mind bc you never know, true

[sudden quartz]

Majority of the time youd just want to maximize your learning and grades by actually choosing to study the language beforehand. I recommend picking up just 1 language outside of class boundaries in your third/fourth years.

Just learn C++ . You know what come first ? your grades and project presence. and general respectability as a developer.

[ancient star]

current project presence: 0 😦 but I'm okay with that as I'm still learning what I like and what I don't. I know that my presence and respectability will (ideally) grow the further along with my learning.. At least, hopefully.

[delicate bane]

projects are a good way to learn and solidify concepts

at least for me, if its not used in a project, it can become easily forgotten

[sudden quartz]

you could graduate as an unskilled worker

cant code, cant read code, cant fix code, just trash

[summer roost]

What you learn matters much, much more than your grades. The knowledge will stick with you for the rest of your life. The grades only matter for your first job after college.

[ancient star]

This has been a legitimate fear of mine! Fortunately I'm on track and actually retaining stuff lol. If I graduate and can't code I'm gonna let someone kick me.

[sudden quartz]

Bullshit, if you focus on your grades that knowledge will stick with you and so will grades, because grades open up opportunities. Opportunities give you resources and learning. For example, grad school. As I said, just focus on C++, and in doing so quickly raises your respect level and early experience, which looks good to future employers. The best option here is to go with the language you will use to obtain grades as well and learn it well, because you wont be a master after the courses, but if you start now, thats possible, and youll be ahead of the pack

[summer roost]

I couldn't disagree any more strongly. Learning all the material for a class before taking that class is a waste of money (you're paying someone to teach you something you already know), a waste of time (you could be learning something useful with that time instead), and a waste of effort (you still need to do the exams and homeworks for that class, even though you already know the material and aren't benefiting from the class at all).

in the long term, grades don't matter. What does matter is learning what types of work you enjoy, and exposing yourself to new opportunities, and developing a broad base that makes learning new topics in the future and keeping up with changing tech easier for you.

[sudden quartz]

Courses are only about getting tested and assignments. You arent there to actually learn. Youre there for accredidation and thats the unfortunate truth. Thats why youre graded in a pack of students. You dont learn from sitting in lectures talking about code... and you wont retain anything for the future, you learn from coding. Lectures are a waste of time too often in CS. But the courses are a good supplement to your own learning. So its good to grab the good grades anyway. Besides if you were in a good CS department, youre getting exposed to a ton of things if you navigate well. Some people need to study early or will ultimately fail in a tough CS department. And struggling and stress results in the worst retention of all. If CS courses come easy to you, then sure, go crazy. You could also take 6 or 7 courses each semester. You cant go wrong with focusing on your grades and it can obviously return some great learning benefits if you do. That is all, as you were.

[summer roost]

Absolutely not, couldn't disagree more.

[ancient star]

This is how I feel about paying for a freaking HTML class. Sure, it's an easier grade, but all it's doing is allowing me to focus on my other classes more. Currently taking a written communications class as well, and that is very boring. A lot of reading.

[summer roost]

Written communication is an incredibly useful real world skill, especially now that many jobs have at least some remote work. A class that's forcing you to put in effort to refine your communication is great, since that's something that would be a lot harder to motivate yourself to learn on your own. Most people only get good at that through a lot of painful trial and error.

[true harness]

a class to simply learn a programming language, i can probably agree there's not much use for it. but for more complicated cs topics, the class gives you classmates, a prof, TAs, whatever that you can ask for help and talk to. there's also much more structure in a class compared to learning on your own, which might be helpful for some people

[ancient star]

I'm one of those people. I tried teaching myself Python at various different times in life and just couldn't grasp it until now, where there's that structure. I've had very little interaction with my peers or instructors (once got told I should tutor...nope) but the structure of content is nice. I can also agree with them being a waste of time because the structure is very similar to most tutorials as is. I suppose I'm holding myself accountable to learn now by telling myself I'm not going into student debt for nothing! 😄

It could also very well just be that I'm finally mentally ready to actually learn and that I wasn't in the past though.

[summer roost]

structure and a curriculum really does help. As well as curation - getting introduced to concepts at the right time after the groundwork has been laid for you to understand the material.

[true harness]

a common topic in the #pedagogy channel 👀

[high aurora]

Question : what is that website that shows you live people getting high paid jobs in computer science?

[summer roost]

"live"?

[peak halo]

you mean like, a stream of headlines saying "Person x got y job with z salary"?

I'm not sure why that would exist. I guess you could look on linkedin.

[smoky quest]

levels.fyi

[smoky quest]

Sorry @ Pope Stelercus!
I meant to reply to @high aurora

That said, I would definitely watch a live stream of people receiving their paycheck

[peak halo]

> not having direct deposit in 2022

[smoky quest]

yeah, not meant to be taken literally. Figuratively, it's always great to see good news being delivered. I would settle for raise/awards/bonus announcements

[peak halo]

Well then you'll be glad to know that you've won the Togolese lottery. Just send $20 in the form of a steam gift card and I'll transfer the funds to you.

[smoky quest]

On a more serious note, being able to actually reward your people and show your appreciation is one of the perks of managing people.
Unfortunately, they will never know all the hard battles behind the scene to fight for that budget

[peak halo]

do you work in management?

[smoky quest]

yeah, parts of it

[peak halo]

interesting. did you start in a purely technical position? do you do a blend of managerial and technical work?

[smoky quest]

yeah, started as a pure technical engineer, especially backend.
But got heavily involved in startups where you wear many hats.

And yeah, I do have folks reporting to me

[peak halo]

I see. was it part of your plan initially to do both?

[smoky quest]

I am only there for the fun and the challenges.
So if it means managing people, sure, I can do it. While I do enjoy it in a startup and it can be a healthy tension, it does end up as a handicap in larger companies where people are put in well defined boxes

For instance, you can't really go that far up if the teams need you. So you would need to make sure you can operate at a higher level without them needing you, which also means you going further away from the most technical details

But managing people is fun and rewarding too. It's just a different job. Debugging people can be quite different from debugging machines

[peak halo]

@smoky quest I don't have anything else to say, but thanks for sharing 😄

[smoky quest]

np.
If you are curious about transitioning to management or leadership positions, feel free to ping me

[peak halo]

there's no way that's happening unless I at least get a masters, so that's probably seven years out at the earliest

[smoky quest]

If you are in Europe, going into managing people may happen sooner than you think with a masters

[delicate bane]

inb4 accidental masters

[brave matrix]

Any body in the data science/ analytics field?
I wanna ask how much more do i need to know to get a basic/ junior data analyst position

[peak halo]

what credentials do you have currently?

[thick phoenix]

Can someone send me good resume example. i am trying to build my resume

[sudden quartz]

Just chuck projects into and you cant go wrong

[peak halo]

you can anonymize your resume and post it here.

[brave matrix]

So i crrently have a pretty good knowledge with Python, ik Pandas PyPlot and Seaborn pretty good as well (i have used all three of them on some datasets of mine).
And some basic SQL query like; creating, reading, iterating, and appending rows and doing some filtering in the query. (Ive used SQLite till now).

I have made two scripts that ive worked and refined for a long time; one is an api that allowes me to buy/ sell stocks thru my broker (and other functions like; fetch spread, locate HTB shorts, check if im invested in a certain symbol..) with selenium and uses sql to store records
The 2nd script uses the requests module to get a JSON containg a table with a list of stock symbols and over 20 cols of attributes wich i then clean and format and if the conditions are met i will forward the symbol to script number one to buy.
The main take away is that l have been dealing with alot of data and altough i dont have any mathematics or statistics knowledge im still very good at cleaning and formatting data.
Do u think this is enough to land me a basic job ?

[peak halo]

@ionic plover is this related to careers, or is it self-promotion?

[ionic plover]

Ok it is self promotion I guess

[brave matrix]

These two pyhton scripts are the best projects i have made, but i have over 10 - 20 scripts in my python files to give u an idea of my Py experience

[peak halo]

do you have a degree, and if so, what is it in?

[brave matrix]

And sorry if its so long):

[brave matrix]

Unfortunately nothing, not even a high school diploma

[true harness]

how old are you? also what country

[brave matrix]

19, from italy
However since my english is pretty good, i reckon i could work from home and apply in different countries..

[brave matrix]

Do u think its feasible to get smth basic ? Or if not what should my next step be? (Other than making a degree)

[peak halo]

Your English skills do seem good. EU citizens can work in any EU state, yes? If you were in the US, I would tell you that you have to get a bachelors degree to continue. I don't know how it works in Europe.

[brave matrix]

Im a US citizen too btw
But do u really need a degree ? Coz i see so many YTbrs that say thyre self taught (without any formal education) yet they have some decent jobs.
Not the best paying, but still some entry level jobs..

[true harness]

that's because there aren't YTbrs saying how they failed

[peak halo]

are they working in data science-related positions, or other branches of programming? In either case, there's probably a significant luck component involved there.

[brave matrix]

For sure

[brave matrix]

Swlf taught, usually in data analyst wich like data science but without the need for statistics

[peak halo]

remind me why it is that you want to avoid university at all costs? because having a positive attitude about learning is necessary to succeed in any programming field.

[brave matrix]

But i was thinking maybe i should get an apprenticeship, even if im working for free that way i could get some real world experience, is there anything like that irl ?

[brave matrix]

So i just think its not very efficient whatever u study in uni in 2 years youll do in a 1/4 of that time, and it costs money.
Im not against learning more in fact im still studying (i started learning python like 3- 4 months ago), however i would rather study online then on university

[peak halo]

It's not inefficient when it's the best way to get credentials that employers will recognize

[brave matrix]

Man everybody says that its the real world experience that matters and not that piece of paper
Im legis so confused

[peak halo]

If degrees didn't actually matter, why would anyone get them?

though I think what those people mean is that tangible experience (whether it be from a university education or in industry) matters in the log term--a degree is like four years of your life, whereas careers last for decades. But for a first job, at least in the US, it's hard to find one without a degree.

[delicate bane]

survivorship bias, yep

[ancient star]

I mean... I'm getting a degree in a field that isn't really prevalent in my area. I'm going to have to move if I want a career in a related field. But that's something I'm aware of already so...

[ancient star]

ffffffffffffffrrrrrr <-- My cat apparently said hi while I was afk.

[frank ravine]

how long to realistically get a python job?

[sharp wind]

Unless you 100% focus on python, I'd say awhile.

I'd recommend looking at getting a job where you use python to help with your role

[ancient star]

It can take a while. Do you have any degrees, certs, etc.? Any contributions to projects? There seems to be a general consensus that these are good things to show for jobs in this industry, especially if you're only focusing on the one language. I put my current progress into perspective whenever I see how much more advanced y'all are lmao.

[frank ravine]

might have gen ed degree soon and transfer to comp science degree

[lime anchor]

Python seems like a hard way to get in at entry-level without a CS degree

[frank ravine]

hard compared to what

[lime anchor]

i had more success with applying to JS positions

[frank ravine]

tahnks for all input

[frank ravine]

python is just easier to learn and im already started a decent amount

[sharp wind]

In order to be good at programming, you need to understand complex algorithms, data structures, efficiency, which requires a fair amount of math.

[frank ravine]

shitty, i don't plan on using math often

[ancient star]

Don't remind me, I have to pass a precalc class for my CS degree and I'm /terrible/ at math.

[sharp wind]

Pre calc is easy. Even calc 1 is easy.

[frank ravine]

ew no

[sharp wind]

calc2 is where it starts to get more challenging.

[frank ravine]

so get a normal job and not a python job basically

[sharp wind]

Get a job that doesn't require programming but use programming to enhance your efficiency at the job.

[frank ravine]

useful tip

dont know exactly where to even look

that would be a remote job and i've had shit luck, def not cold calling anyone

[ancient star]

Like... Using Python to help write employee schedules at my basic AF retail job?! Haha. Gotta love retail management. .-.

[sharp wind]

Depends on what you have interest in. I started as a network engineer, and started using bash because of linux machines, and then moved to using python because it's more scalable. Now I'm a release engineer and use python to build out full enterprise applications for my teams.

[ancient star]

The goal is to move up from retail to a corporate software or it position with the same company tho

[frank ravine]

sounds badass

you really use a lot of math..? isnt theres functions for that...

[frank ravine]

interesting..

[lime anchor]

depends on the type of programming. If you wanna get through whiteboarding interviews then you'll have to learn data structures and algorithms. I think calculus is used primarily in data science roles

[sharp wind]

So I use statistics more so. But I also have a minor degree in electrical engineering, where I used C to program embedded systems and OSs. So I have a good background in low level understandings.

[frank ravine]

i was told no math for programming

[ancient star]

Sorry, /MY/ goal is that anyway. Unless I get a job elsewhere of course lol.

[sharp wind]

One of the engineering teams I'm working with is using linear algebra.

[frank ravine]

also really interesting in working for myself and not company..

very interested in scamming scammers, but apparently that makes me a bad person

[sharp wind]

Gl makaing a living. I make 180k for working for a company. Def worth it. You'd have to do a lot to make that on your own.

[frank ravine]

the problem is id like to be very good at whatever i do, and as of now i'm not a good programmer..

[frank ravine]

well you have the skills to make a billion dollar company

[sharp wind]

no one is a good programmer starting out. you have to practice -- alot

[sharp wind]

No - I just work for a billion dollar company.

[frank ravine]

its all perspective... and chat needs slower cooldown

[ancient star]

Neither am I. That's why I suck it up, work a relatively lame job, and go to school and work on learning more. I'm trying to build my "reputation" and knowledge before I even start applying for software jobs.

[frank ravine]

i feel like the biggest procrastinator

[ancient star]

Goals. How was the interviewing process?

[frank ravine]

conversation is so much better than this "white hat hacking group" i joined lmao

[sharp wind]

Tbh, for release engineering role, I wasn't interviewed on my python knowledge. It was a requirement, but I was only tested on my SQL. Probably not the standard release engineering panel though.

[frank ravine]

tiny tip, but i did learn many of the times job descriptions are drug out. obviously you should know the skill , but at least 30% is learning on the job

[sharp wind]

But I moved up within the company, so they probably knew what I was able to do from talking with my managers.

[frank ravine]

entry level in this industry is obviously a scam..

[frank ravine]

what is the easiest coding position there is that not a thing

[sharp wind]

The job description is the "ideal unicorn" candidate. Rarely does someone hit all the checkboxes. You should be familiar with the concepts of each bullet point, but you don't need to know everything. Because if someone does hit all checkboxes, it's like why do they want this job? They won't learn anything else. Shows that the person might move on more quickly than someone that knows 70% and needs to learn 30%

[frank ravine]

nice

[final plover]

Perhaps you could give me some guidance/direction?

[sharp wind]

Like?

[final plover]

I've been self teaching myself programming at my company and in free time. I made some simple things -

a script with os.walk to grab all files with certain extension in our drives which then grabs the files path and adds it to a pandas dataframe, letting users type relaitvely close the name of the file - which it then takes the path and opens said file.

a simple web scrape that grabs all emails off our company site and allows you to "batch copy" all emails from the department you type in

a simple discord bot that pushes notifications to my friend when game updates or youtube channels post something new.

I love this automation/increasing efficiency thing. What can I do to build this into a career?

[frank ravine]

keep doing what your doing, sounds like you're providing value and know what you're doing

continue learning and start charging for work 😄 if you want to freelance

[sharp wind]

Depends on what you want to do with programming. But yes, keep doing what you're doing. When you make things, look to make the modular, as in, reusable. Create modules that can be imported into other programs. Look at creating unit tests so when you make changes, you can confirm nothing broke instead of manullay testing things.

[frank ravine]

wow learning all that right now 😄

but yes function with specific name for each action

code should read like a book starting with main

want to hop right in making crazy returns find a web3 project

[sharp wind]

web3 is a joke and I wouldn't waste your time

[frank ravine]

they will pay you in currency that doesn't inflate , and increases in value

[frank ravine]

how so...

[final plover]

My only issue is this stuff is more of a side thing when I'm at a standstill with my actual job(automotive designer). Guess what I'm saying is, there is no position for that automation at my current company - its just another value.

I really have a strong passion for it, quite obsessed. I want to make a career shift for it and dip out. Looking to be pointed toward a career path that does similar work. Sorry for being so broad, just not sure how to ask where to start.

[sharp wind]

Web3 is based on blockchain decentralization... the internet is already decentralized. And you can never get people to afford the cost of the servers to "own" their own data.

[frank ravine]

the server is the blockchain

[summer roost]

often for mid-career switches, the best option is to try to find a job that leverages your current expertise and also requires some degree of programming. I have no idea what that might be for an automotive designer, but I'm sure such positions must exist.

[frank ravine]

was a better of the points i've been told, but still not really one

I want a great reason for anybody against web3 cryptos and nfts on why they are currently and will miss out on the craziest gains of their live

it's like people saying the internet wasn't anything back then, now we are all discussing it on the interenet. thats exactly what crypto is, a technology, code mind you.

[summer roost]

because they're entirely speculation. There's no intrinsic value to any of them, just people pumping them up in the hope of getting out while they're at their peak. You're just playing a game of chicken with other "investors".

[frank ravine]

understandable, until you realize there is utility...

[sharp wind]

The research I did, along with the knowledge I have indicates that it's a joke, but I could be wrong.

I also think bitcoin is still a pyramid scheme. Eventually we have to have something like it in the world, but bitcoin isn't it

[frank ravine]

most are jokes, you aren't wrong. but access to clubs to things you already buy for a discount or free, free airdrops, staking

it's undeniable the opportunity. when your dollars are losing second by second, you could earn 100% interest and thats a measily

[sharp wind]

could Chances are you won't

[frank ravine]

it's always people who never bought a nft or coin, scared of losing, when they don't realize money is already fake

[summer roost]

There's obviously no utility in NFTs - no one even pretends there is.
If there was utility in cryptocurrencies, people would use them to make purchases. They don't.
There is some value in blockchain, as a distributed ledger shared by mutually distrustful parties - but in most real world cases where parties are mutually distrustful, government entities or corporations act as middlemen between them to establish trust, so the interesting tech that is blockchain isn't useful.

[frank ravine]

no you do... the oculd is my 158k apy a year that is currently compoun interesting in my account

[sharp wind]

With all of the winners, there's more losers. Just go look at vegas. The city isn't as big as it is because of winners

[frank ravine]

it's honestly like learning new things and perspectives, cant listen to what you're told. big campaign against the future

you want to listen to global news ,or the people who are actually in it you know what i mean

[summer roost]

it's also totally unrelated to careers.

[frank ravine]

most of what you've heard also has came from somebody not knowing what they are talking about... and it's completely related to careers

[final plover]

thanks for the advice. Need to see if there is something out there like that.

[frank ravine]

Collateralized backed loans?

many of you could use that right now. most people who started big businesses leveraged debt

[summer roost]

The topic here is "the world of work". Investing advice isn't on topic.

[frank ravine]

web 3 was on topic sorry you don't believe so

[summer roost]

web 3 sort of is on topic, insofar as we could discuss how many jobs there are in it, or things like that.

[frank ravine]

yes, we should

[summer roost]

ok. "practically none" is the answer.

99.999% of programmers are working in something other than web 3.
That probably needs more 9s, honestly.

[frank ravine]

number is very low

but when you say web3 is deceiving, google ofc won't know the number as id consider it to encompasses all crypto

not to mention your bank card in your pocket is crypto...

[summer roost]

huh?

[frank ravine]

bank cards are crypto

[sharp wind]

Cryptography yes. Blockchain - no

[frank ravine]

it's a technology that people can't get with today, yet they have already been using everyday.... same thing..

[summer roost]

right. Bank cards use cryptography. They're unrelated to cryptocurrencies or blockchain.

[frank ravine]

I guess, but it's next up they aren't going to call it web 3 for no reason, deniable to an extent

also i bet those 18k web developers get paid way more than most web 2

i lied its about the same

[summer roost]

you claimed that coins aren't experiencing inflation - that should be all the proof you need that they're not really currencies. Every major currency in the world is experiencing inflation right now, and crypto currencies aren't. Because their value is unrelated to purchasing power, because people don't use them to make purchases, and instead they're propped up by speculators.

[frank ravine]

lol.. i'd prefer you argue any point other than the currency printing money whenever you want especially your evil government is never a good thing

and usd is a real currency because they told you so? lol.. do you not see the contradiction

and people do use them to make purchases dont know where you been the last 5 years...

[summer roost]

If they were real currencies, their purchasing power would be dropping, like all other heavily used currencies.

[frank ravine]

... im listening

thats a very bland statement, what do you mean, you describe a currency as something that inflates? man do i feel bad for your pockets and any wealth youd try to save

its a millionaires game, unless you have a millionaire we are fucked

[summer roost]

inflation is a rise in the price of goods and services. If you used to be able to buy 10 bananas for a dollar, but bananas have just gotten more expensive, now you can only buy 9 bananas for a dollar. That's inflation.

If the amount of bitcoin that it takes to buy 10 bananas doesn't go up, but the amount of every other currency that it takes to buy 10 bananas does, then clearly whatever bitcoin is pricing in isn't value.

[ancient star]

Seeing people argue with moderators about what's on topic.

[summer roost]

indeed 😄

[frank ravine]

we are off topic now

[ancient star]

😛

[summer roost]

yeah, on that note, if people want to continue this conversation, let's move to #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

[gilded valley]

Inflation is directly tied to the purchasing power of normal people - it's the price of a standardised basket of goods. Right now real world effects are reducing the amount of goods available for people to buy, which means there's the same amount of money fighting for fewer possible goods

[frank ravine]

you are misunderstood on your inflation thing tho btw i got homework to do otherwise id love to

[summer roost]

I assure you I am not.

[frank ravine]

if bitcoin goes up how would it cost you the same to buy the bananas

do you get it..

we aren't talking inflation we are talking price fluctuation

[summer roost]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation

[frank ravine]

lol...

[summer roost]

read those first two sentences.

[frank ravine]

can you answer the question instead

[summer roost]

in any event: we're off topic here. I'm cutting this conversation off - if you want to continue, do it in #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

I'll delete any further off-topic messages.

[buoyant seal]

Made my new yaml styled cv, any advices what can be improved in it?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D8zavVbChjdcVn3hSGdpf1Gla-KfFjIe/view

[gilded valley]

make it actual text not images

[summer roost]

yeah, I can't copy-paste out of that, which seems like a really big no-no

[buoyant seal]

seems like small thing, but well, if you say it is big, then it is big

[summer roost]

seems pretty big to me - if I can't get text out of it, neither can ATS systems, I expect.

[buoyant seal]

I was making it in Figma. Going to be a bit of confusion to fix it

[ancient star]

My resume is a crapshow 😄 but it's .docx and .pdf so... Readable by systems, hopefully.

[buoyant seal]

Oh wait. Figma has PDF exporter, yay!

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Kt3TnmaFMGBd5T1JCZC139BHhziUnf53?usp=sharing
version text selectably fixed

[graceful mason]

Preferring to format with: Black - This isn't really a skill, not sure if it's worth listing
Preferring to test with: Pytest - Is this the only unit test framework you know? If not, I'd list all of them rather than the one you prefer
Cloud providers: Hetzner, DigitalOcean, and some others - Either list the others or don't, doesn't seem like there's any reason to put and some others

Under tech skills you've listed 30-40 things and it has taken half a page - might be worth condensing the info so it doesn't take as long to read

English - somewhere around B2-C1 - I'd just put B2 - C1

Time: started: Sep2016, length: 4 years - I'd make Sep 2016 blue here to match the rest of the formatting, same with the other job

One man army to replace all missing job positions - Seems a bit weird to put One man army

SoftwareAnalyst/Frontend - Maybe split SoftwareAnalyst into 2 words

Learned, proposed, and applied framework - What framework?

Setting up logging and monitoring systems - Using what logging and monitoring tools?

[upbeat shoal]

NATO does this with their BRs and it’s so goddamn annoying

[upbeat shoal]

Copy and pasting is definitely a big thing lol

[gilded valley]

Made planning and design of the programming product -> Planned and designed of the programming product
Made fully automated infrastructure as a code deployment. -> Fully automated infrastructure as a code deployment.

[buoyant seal]

in startup everyone who is able is one man army, it is the most descriptive name of duties. Too many hats roles.
I was even content writer and SEO optimizer

[graceful mason]

I'd just list everything you were responsible for to imply you were a one man army, rather than putting it explicitly - to me it comes across as you not valuing the people you worked with

[buoyant seal]

Developer in a startup in a nutshell

[gilded valley]

The language throughout is very informal and casual - not necessarily a problem afaik, but it is fairly atypical

[buoyant seal]

all other points are good ones, thanks, fixing stuff

[graceful mason]

Try to imagine how an interviewer would react if you said this directly to them, if they would have any obvious follow up questions etc

[gilded valley]

you also don't list the name of the startup, which feels a bit funky

[buoyant seal]

[buoyant seal]

I guess it is good to remove just to be having less ego boasting attitude. Lets try to make more nice soft impression

[graceful mason]

exactly

[buoyant seal]

Under tech skills you've listed 30-40 things and it has taken half a page - might be worth condensing the info so it doesn't take as long to read
I think it makes somewhat clear picture of me where I stand with reading the bits from Jobs and About Me section to supplement it
I would better to have it. Because every small bit is important

[graceful mason]

I agree than the info is important, but you need to keep in mind the person reading your CV has a small amount of time they'll do it in

[buoyant seal]

like... some ridiculous people don't know how to wield Git and reject its usage, I will prefer to point I know how to use it (hopefully)

[buoyant seal]

that's why it has Yaml and Syntax colorization. To have all of it readable. It should be fixing the problem of having a lot of stuff

[buoyant seal]

and at least the CV is having just one page
I think it can be quite quickly scanned considering the colorizations

and in comparison to regular cv builders I have at least only real stuff mentioned, without extra unnecessary stuff out of the strict cv builders

probably should read the CV few more times tomorrow before sending out

[buoyant seal]

thank you very much for all sugestions

[graceful mason]

Consider Preferring to test with: pytest, you've used 5 words to get across as much info as you would with Pytest.

[buoyant seal]

Testing framework: pytest, or simpler Testing: pytest

[worldly fern]

any matlab guys in here

[graceful mason]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[worldly fern]

ok

[buoyant seal]

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Kt3TnmaFMGBd5T1JCZC139BHhziUnf53 fixed all things in cv, going to wait for a day though
I will re read tomorrow just to be sure for sure One day is not a hurry I think anyway. Better to check everything one more time.

hmm, may be to add the dates when I graduated? I finished master's degree 1.5 year ago, right between the two jobs. The part time first job was during my university time

Excited about finding a new job. It has a been 1.5 years, and two very long projects. Yay. At last the change of a company

[near ocean]

This is cute and all but i doubt it'll get past automated cv screening software

[buoyant seal]

huh?

[near ocean]

Employers usually use automated cv screening tools to grab content from the cv, if your layout is weird or theres too much formatting it just trips the tool up and you might get rejected

[buoyant seal]

that sounds awkward. I mean who the hell uses CV parsing tools if every CV is having its own unique layout

at best we can extract only key words, which means cv screening tools are buzz words extractors. They will do it regardless of the CV layout

[near ocean]

Employers who dont have time to wade through thousands of CVs being thrown at them

I would be cautious about the amount of formatting put into my cv

[buoyant seal]

i mean, highly likely good cv parsing tools probably not considering the layout of pdf. Keywords extraction should be working without considerations of the layout.

[near ocean]

Should is one thing
Do they is another

[smoky quest]

As a concrete example, I haven't seen any ATS which doesn't mix things up when getting a multi column format CV/resume.

With regards to your resume, it does look cool but there is way too much cognitive load to read it and parse it

[buoyant seal]

in infra tools, everything is yaml. Perhaps I am overly used to it and not having the cognitive load because of it
to my eye it is the most easily parsed thing to have. I thought other people would have it easily parsed too

[smoky quest]

That has nothing to do with it.
It's more about all the extra titles lke "First project", "Responsibility scope", etc.
It doesn't help these titles are also called out in a different color and the actual information is in a uniform blue color. So they divert and distract the attention

[buoyant seal]

oh, ok.

[smoky quest]

Take for instance the first "Applied technologies". You have a single one in green and surrounded by 4 lines of blue things. So the eye will skip the blue and focus on that title, which is not the desired outcome

[buoyant seal]

hmm, i see

I mean, the green provides easy sub headers
to navigate through it

I am just not sure that it can be fixed in any good way beyond that

[smoky quest]

yeah, I understand the intent. But 99% of the resumes I see don't need it through their formatting

When people are reading your resume, they will only spend something like 15-30sec before deciding to stop or to continue if they see something interesting/worth their time. So if they spend these first 15-30 sec trying to figure out what the heck is going on, that reduces the likelihood of getting further

[buoyant seal]

perhaps the original formatting will catch their eye, they would scrap the matching tech skills at the left within 15-30 seconds, and will get interested to continue reading further

[smoky quest]

Some things that could be tried:

• Remove the naming in the experience parts, like if it would be in yaml
• Change the color scheme in the skills and removed the worked with since they are all under that section
• Try to keep it single column. It will help with the ATS and potentially make it look less busy

[smoky quest]

that's true. The question becomes then if you are willing to bet on the originality and the interest it props up

[buoyant seal]

hopefully. I made additional stuff to catch eye hopefully in the about me section, where i have github link. My homelab is full of different stuff 😉

[buoyant seal]

all right, i'll try it

[smoky quest]

that's pretty cool

[ancient star]

That is neat.

All being said, I think y'all would tear my resume apart. It's so entry level and not at all scoped towards technical/cs. I gotta try making a better one now!

[narrow ether]

anyone in cybersec working in remote roles? id really like to work remote but some people say cyber roles are hard to come across remotely

[delicate bane]

yeah having your github is good. if its a pdf, try to make it into a link for recruiters. i like the yaml idea. i think there are some sites that let you check ATS compatibility

[ancient star]

Yep, they are Googleable!

Not telling you to google them, just saying I just did haha.

[harsh trellis]

Hi! I'm a HS senior from rural New England who has taken a lot of CS classes. I was wondering if anyone has any ideas about remote CS internships, especially those that would function in conjunction with the medical field. Thanks!

[delicate bane]

im in a remote one rn, healthcare tech.

there are listings on linkedin and you can "filter by industry" and "internships". however theyre usually looking for college students but you might be able to land one if youre a competitive applicant

[summer roost]

internships for high school students are exceptionally uncommon, from what I've seen.

[dapper depot]

@summer roost moving from #pedagogy bc i dont think its on topic
what would you say are the most commonly used CS concepts in upper dev positions?

[summer roost]

I'm not sure I could give a very specific answer, since the more senior positions are by definition more specialized than the junior ones, and each one has its own set of knowledge that it requires. I've needed to know stuff that's everywhere from how the CPU schedules threads to consensus algorithms for distributed systems, all of which were covered in more or less detail in classes I took in college. Other people wind up in positions that focus on machine learning, which requires advanced math. People who wind up creating DSLs need to know a fair bit of formal language theory and parsing...

[ancient star]

Screw this I'm switching to a business major. (Joking)

Also nothing against business majors, jist the first non technical degree i could think of :o

[gusty chasm]

Heh guys can I ask for advice?

So I have an interview on Tuesday for a company and I did not have enough time to prepare because I had a lot of schoolwork I had to do and so I dont have enough time to prepare, I can't reschedule either, I originally scheduled for a later time but then they told me they had to move the interview up because they had to finish interviewing by the 11th and this was their open date, so my question is what can I do, I didnt have enough time to grid leetcode or practice behavioral, of course im gonna grind tomorrow and what time time I have left today but what do I do? I really want this internship

I also just wanted to say I'm not super confident in my algorithms and data structures and big o as well

[peak halo]

it sounds like you have a really high expectation for how much you need to learn between now and the interview. if you don't already know the fundamentals of sorting algorithms, graph traversal algorithms, and the basic data structures, it's not likely that you can actually learn and retain that much material between now and then anyhow. your best bet is probably to avoid psyching yourself out.

[gusty chasm]

Dam, it's just that this is a pretty good company, and I really feel like I can grow as a swe with them

[peak halo]

that's probably true, but that doesn't change the fact that time is limited.

[gusty chasm]

So, just do my best then right?

[peak halo]

pretty much. you asked what to do, and my take is that there's not a whole lot you can do. you might focus on just learning one thing really well between now and then that might have some overlap with the other things you could have focused on. Like if you learn how to invert a binary tree, or something like that, you will have at least also learned about trees, recursion, and graph traversal.

[ancient star]

I mean... I passed the coding challenge for Linode's internship programs, but didn't move any more forward than that lol.

So even if you can pass the coding challenge aspects, there's usually more to prepare for as well.

[gusty chasm]

Got it, yea I mean that makes sense, there really isn't much I can do than just do what I can and hope for the best

And I'll try and and get really good at one thing

[ancient star]

Worst case scenario, it's a learning experience that'll humble you enough - perhaps - to double down on your learning path!

[summer roost]

spend a couple of hours between now and the interview brushing up on what you can - maybe hash tables and breadth first and depth first tree traversal. And other than that... Just relax. Chill, and give yourself some space. You probably know more than you realize, and going into an interview stressed out and poorly rested is a bad call.

[gusty chasm]

Thank you! I definetly will

[rotund pasture]

Hello!

[gusty chasm]

Do you guys think it's a good idea to be upfront about my lack of prep time or is that dumb?

[rotund pasture]

I wonder if it's possible to actually get an learning course? I'd love to join if there is, since I just started over a month ago and know the basics of using print, input an output through Youtube learning courses. I joined here to know if it was possible to learn over here.

[summer roost]

!resources This has some suggestions for courses

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[gusty chasm]

I dont want the interviewer to think im wasting their time

[summer roost]

Don't prep them to assume you'll fail. If there's a question you're not able to answer, be honest about that. It's OK to say "I'm not sure, but I think...", but I wouldn't say "I'm sorry, I'm unprepared"

they're hiring interns, not experts. It's OK to not know something. Pretending that you know something that you don't would be a red flag. To some degree, making excuses for why you don't know something would also be a bit of a red flag.

If you say "I didn't have time to prepare for this interview", what they might hear instead is "I took a class that taught me data structures and algorithms, but I didn't actually learn it", or possibly "I'm bad at time management"

It's much better to let them make their own judgments of your abilities, instead of biasing them with your judgments

[gusty chasm]

Oh yea thats a really good point your right

I shouldn't shoot myself in the foot by saying stuff like that

[summer roost]

Right. It's ok to try to do some damage control if there's something you don't know, but that's the most I'd do. And it's OK to just say that you don't know something. They're hiring interns because they expect to teach them something; knowing your own shortcomings is a good thing, because it means you know what you still need to learn.

[rotund pasture]

I'll check them out right away!! Tysm :D

[gusty chasm]

Yes 100% tysm this really helps!!

I feel a lot better now and less stressed!

[shadow charm]

Is it possible to make a virtual device ?

[peak halo]

This channel is for discussing career/work stuff. I don't know what a virtual device is, so I'm not sure where to direct you.

[shadow charm]

Yes I didn’t found a channel for this.. srry

[limpid helm]

👍

[ancient star]

I once told an employer "I don't know honestly, but give me some time to find out." and they enjoyed that response. So yeah. Definitely OK to admit to not knowing.

[frosty sail]

One of the soft skills I value most as a coworker and interviewer is someone being able to say "I don't know" in a high pressure situation, and propose a reasonable direction of research to figure out the answer to that question. It's a lot of mental effort to work with people who refuse to communicate that they don't know something, and really detracts from the relationship. I consider having that attitude as one of the core components of a good hire, right up there on par with having relevant technical skills.

I've done quite a few data science interviews, and I purposely structure them to run the interviewee into an "I don't know" scenario. I'm 100% sure I'm not the only person who does this.

[odd cloud]

Should i make a github? what is github and wbhat does it do

[brazen lagoon]

"GitHub is a code hosting platform for version control and collaboration. It lets you and others work together on projects from anywhere." https://docs.github.com/en/get-started/quickstart/hello-world

[odd cloud]

oh dope

[summer roost]

I've interview for Unix backend stuff, and also tried to push candidates into "I don't know" territory.

Completely agree with your take on the importance of admitting that you don't know something. If you try to bluff your way through an interview question, it's quite likely to badly backfire on you.

[slim raven]

Is it a good sign when a company that interviewed you send you a take-home test that they allow you a week to do it?

[frosty sail]

Better than ghosting you or rejection I suppose

[ancient star]

So somewhat related.. Is it easy to tell the difference between someone who is trying really hard to actually find a solution, and someone who is just trying to bluff until you buy it? For those of you who interview.

Like if instead of saying "I don't know" I like to really put the effort in to solving things. Even if I don't know what I'm doing. Learning by breaking stuff as needed... Lol.

[frosty sail]

For entry level positions it’s pretty easy.

[smoky quest]

Depends on how it's done. But bluffing and bullshitting typically get spoted pretty quickly

[undone path]

hey guys is there a website with just a bunch of practice problems for both basic python and data science python?

does leetcode do that or no? speaking as someone new to leetcode in general

[ancient star]

https://edabit.com/challenges

unsure of data science, but tons of challenges

[undone path]

thanks

[vital spoke]

Hey guys I just have a few questions so like I’m 18 with 0 experience in any type of coding or comp sci stuff and I want to go to college to major in comp sci (I’m very lost for what I want as a career rn, before I thought I wanted to do medical field so I took all these med courses in high school but I’m just now realizing I have no interest in the medical field) so can anyone describe what a comp sci job would even be like?? Or difficulty level or anything tbh I’m just very lost rn

[ripe mural]

go for PLCs!

big companies big money

[ripe mural]

but its not only programming you need to know

[vital spoke]

Oh ok

Tysm I’m gonna do a bit of research on what you just suggested 😅

[ripe mural]

totally depends on you though! definitely look around but there are a lot of low key easier jobs that pay a ton

[vital spoke]

Ok Tysm

[dapper wren]

Hi, I wanna ask is there any kind of career preparation website for data analysis that are good to learn and prepare for python machine learning related coding? Sometimes there are interviewers ask me about :" can u use jupyter to write AUC graph code for a given dataset shown in attachment?" and I don't know how to practice them. Hope u guys can give me some advice on this

[ancient star]

https://www.freecodecamp.org/learn/machine-learning-with-python/

Not necessarily career prep but looks to cover some stuff.

[ancient star]

https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/machine-learning/

[dapper wren]

👍

this looks really helpful. Thanks. I will looking into it

[prime ermine]

Hello there

Anyone got 10 minutes?

[ancient star]

That depends on what for.

[prime ermine]

@ me

[buoyant seal]

https://www.kaggle.com/
Check competions and tutorials to them

Participate in them
Usually people start in the intro guide there, getting started work with recognizing handwritten symbols(digits?)

They do stuff in Jupyter

[dapper wren]

👍

thanks,very helpful stuff

[hasty parcel]

What’s a good paying job . I have a few years before I turn 18. And how long will I take for me to become successful, I have next to no knowledge about python

[near ocean]

Start learning and worry about all that later

[cosmic fern]

Who is an expert here in C++?

[peak halo]

Never ask who is an expert in something; ask your actual question. But this isn't a help channel, so unless you're seeking career advice that's related to python and C++ in some way, try one of the off-topic channels.

[gaunt elbow]

Currently a python dev, data related stuff (spark in azure databricks basically); 35k€ per year which is not bad for south europe with 3.5 years xp; got the chance to change companies to basically keep my salary but to be a csharp (:NET) dev; i really like csharp since OOP is my thing; would you change?

[jagged hearth]

Quick question

Do data scientist require to do a lot of presentation

[gaunt elbow]

depends on the role, my past role had some of it; had it all: make PoC's, develop the apps, present

got tired of it honestly

[jagged hearth]

that sound like an MC job mix with programmer

[gaunt elbow]

yes but it was a startup

so we were basically do-it-all slaves

only requirement was a math BsC

[peak halo]

"data scientist" isn't really that well defined--every data scientist position is different. but you should probably be able to convey your findings to both technical and non-technical audiences.

[jagged hearth]

wow

I was afraid of doing presentation

[gaunt elbow]

lol I hate it too

explaining how a predictive model works for 25min

[jagged hearth]

Imagine standing in front of 25+ pp explaining how the info is valuable

[gaunt elbow]

and then: "do you need for us to always give you the classification beforehand in PROD?"

[gaunt elbow]

that's not the data scientist job

IMO

[vapid jay]

Sometimes the question can be about something very particular in a technology, and only someone with experience would know the answer

[near ocean]

I would not change my job in any way if it didnt come with a large increase in pay

[vapid jay]

It’s kind of the equivalent of saying “I am not asking for a generic answer that I can find on the first page of Google results”

I am asking for something very particular that I couldn’t find much info online on

[gaunt elbow]

my thinking also, but my current job is just a lot of scripting and i hate it

from my limited xp with csharp (few months professionally, lot more at home) there's a lot more abstraction, design patterns etc...

[gritty rivet]

When absolutely zero details are given like that though, it is very often the equivalent of "can someone do my homework for me?" or "I actually have a simple question that has nothing to do with c+" etc. It's fine to preface your question with who you think your question is for, but get to the point.

[vapid jay]

1. How long should I stay at my first dev job before looking for something better?

2. Should I worry about potential new employers reaching out to my current employer? I don't want them to know I'm trying to find a better paying job until I actually get one lo

[gaunt elbow]

1. while you're ok with the salary and interested in your work

1.1 and always discuss the salary with your colleagues

[gritty rivet]

On 2, yes, you don't want that.

[vapid jay]

How should I prevent that though?

[native narwhal]

hey all
I want some relevant statistics like the StackOverFlow developer survay
like I wanna see which programming type of job has most open positions
like is it web developers
or mobile developers
or database jobs like db engineers or db administrators (database in general)
what do you think?
I think it has to be web developer jobs has most (in number) open positions

[peak halo]

https://www.jetbrains.com/lp/python-developers-survey-2020/ has information about how python is being used out there.

[native narwhal]

okay will check it

[deft path]

Does anyone know of a software engineering job?

[gritty rivet]

They shouldn't do that without asking you first.

[gritty rivet]

There are over 90k listings open on Indeed right now, and that's just remote.

[vapid jay]

Do you always use indeed? Amy better options?

Any*

[gritty rivet]

LinkedIn, Angel.co, there are many others

[gaunt elbow]

don't have a linkedin account and found this job using likedin

you don't even need to be a user to make it useful

[vapid jay]

What lmao, how?

[gaunt elbow]

job posting from hays

sent CV

they were just the recruitement agency, then got a second interview with the final client aand all that

this was in may last year, don't know if linkedin still allows us to see job opportunities without an account

[near ocean]

my first and current job was through a recruitment agency and that's the last time i'm ever using one
applying directly to source from now on, dont have time to deal with middlemen and certainly dont have time to be ghosted by recruiters and companies

[gaunt elbow]

true

[safe loom]

I kept sending applications to companies and asked if friends had an opportunity to offer. So far it's not looking good.

But not looking good I mean I don't even have an interview. I have no medicine or buisness profile and the economy in France is getting crappy.

I'm thinking of going outside EU. Anybody has any advice to find a CS career as a foreigner?

[gaunt elbow]

companies are completetly risk-averse and are mostly looking for people with some experience and also with their exact tech stack

so yeah not good for begginers

but dude it's a huge market out there, prepare your technical interviews and eventually something will come

get used to the OOP aspects of python, the language details (mutable/immutable, the main native libs like itertools or functools)

some flavour of SQL also, say SQLServer

[near ocean]

How many applications have you sent so far and how many, on average, a day

[safe loom]

10/day

[safe loom]

So do I have to spin the job app roulette for weeks until I'm getting something? I stopped bothering with motivation letters at this point.

[gaunt elbow]

don't write motivation letters

do technical interviews

if a job requires a motivation letter just go to the next one

I dont have a public github but they say it helps, work on that

it's pretty much guaranteed that something will come up if you show skill

[safe loom]

Good thing I have one that I occasionally update with side projects.

[gaunt elbow]

yes but make sure those are easy to use and explain

nobody wants to read through thousands of lines of code

1 or 2 competent projects suffice I'd say

what got me my last job was knowing "a lot" about general OOP concepts

I work in a team of 12 people, all py devs, only 2 of us actually know OOP

work on that also because it makes a difference in the python world

don't give up because there are a lot of job offers, as I said before it's just that the companies are very risk-averse and training-averse they just want experienced candidates with the perfect tech stack for them

basically we are RESOURCES and that's it

so treat them the same: cows that give milk

and there are many cows out there

[safe loom]

Yeah I was about to say I'm this close of giving up and also sending the same soulless motivation messages. It feels like companies no longer bother with juniors because of the economic crisis we're facing

[gaunt elbow]

don't give up because it's far from a lost battle

dude I started working in tech at 31 yo, after 4 years I get 42k/year offers and I don't even have linkedin

42k is pretty good for my portuguese ass

especially working from home, I spend fuck all and get some decent money

tip: make sure your github projects are packaged into wheels (go read on that) so that a user just has to pip install your package

[safe loom]

Haha about that... most of them are WIPs because I'm too busy sending apps 😅

[gaunt elbow]

make those private, finish some of them and package them

https://docs.python-guide.org/writing/structure/

read stuff like that

[ancient star]

I really wish I could automatically log all the URL's sent here, because y'all share really interesting links. >_>

[safe loom]

Thanks for the link, but can my github really be used if none of my WIPs are actually finished?

[gaunt elbow]

your WIPs should be private

[safe loom]

By the way is there any job board other than LinkedIn and Indeed?

[near ocean]

totaljobs, glassdoor, jobsite (these might not exist in your region but they do in the UK) other than that you could look up local job boards

[safe loom]

Thanks. Because so far Indeed's scraping is a bit late compared to certain career centers.

[delicate bane]

how does the community feel about consulting as a career

[near ocean]

I heard they do long hours, but i also heard they get paid hella bank

[safe loom]

Good to gain experience but not a long term solution. I've heard many feedbacks about how abusive their managers were. As for me, every recruiter ghosted me after the first call.

[gaunt elbow]

consulting needs to end asap

long hours also need to end asap

do long hours if you're enjoying the work and feel like it

[summer roost]

Why?

Isn't the ability to contract short term work to an expert a valuable option for a company?

[gaunt elbow]

that's not what consulting is for 99% of people

as you know for sure

[summer roost]

What is it, then?

I've seen longer term consulting arrangements, but consulting is usually used when the company doesn't have employees capable of designing or building or maintaining some product, and rather than attempt to build up a team that can do that work, they pay a premium to have consultants do the work. That costs the company less in the short term but more in the long term if that arrangement continues for a long time.

[gaunt elbow]

consulting is exactly that

plus this: consultants work 80h weeks with constant stress and deadlines, get payed for 40h, let the outsourcing reap all those sweet profits

my GF: earns about 25K/year, the company pays almost 80k

(€uros); also, "the company" = final client which is leaseplan

so yeah, consulting needs to end asap

basically Leaseplan has worked with her for more than 2 years, refuses a direct contract, would rather pay the middleman consulting company

not only her, all the consultants are in the same situation

so yeah, end that sh*t already, make it illegal whatever the cost

[summer roost]

So... The problem is the consulting firm, then, not the general concept of consulting, right?

[gaunt elbow]

you're right yes

most consulting companies are like this though

just end it please

[summer roost]

Consulting in general is a valuable arrangement for all parties involved. The company hiring the consultants gets immediate results by paying a premium, the recipient of the contract gets paid more than they'd be making if they were an employee of the company to do the work they've already got expertise in. That's win/win.

I'm not super familiar with the state of consulting in Europe, but it sounds like your wife should consider starting a consulting company and undercutting her current firm, heh.

[gaunt elbow]

that's definitely not what happens in 99% of consulting companies in europe

i would threaten my GF to leave her if she started a consulting company

[summer roost]

I'm more familiar with the situation in the US, and here it's rare for experts at consulting companies to make any less than $100k USD. It's not unusual for them to make over $200k.

[gaunt elbow]

100k lool

dude if we are lucky enough to make 45k then the net salary will be like 25k or less

[smoky quest]

depends on your location

[gaunt elbow]

right

[summer roost]

I had a job at a consulting company for a while with only 4 years of experience under my belt, and was paid around $140k USD gross, for comparison. Taxed at around 25% or 30%, so take home was still over $100k

[gaunt elbow]

well I would not have a problem with that either lol

[ancient star]

IIRC @gaunt elbow is in portugal?

[gaunt elbow]

yep

Portugal

[ancient star]

Just seeing if I remember correctly from reading earlier. 🙂

[gaunt elbow]

my case (not consultant): 35k year, 22400 after taxes

[ancient star]

Y'all do better than me! I'm also not in a tech job at all. I'm a student who works retail lol.

[gaunt elbow]

lool

will get better probably

[ancient star]

Ideally! I gotta start applying for remote jobs because there are no local jobs anywhere in the field (unless I want to work for the state, but they require a BS which I don't have)

[gaunt elbow]

but hey, ever since remote work became the norm my monthly expenses are like 200€

so it's not all bad

left Lisbon, small town life

house is paid for, old vacation house that belongs to my parents

before remote work: 900€ rent

[ancient star]

I live in a rental unit in a "small" town (< 50k population across an entire valley)

[gaunt elbow]

country?

[ancient star]

My rent is paid for the following year, so any income I have goes towards debt or other things.

[ancient star]

I live in Idaho in the U.S.

[gaunt elbow]

nice

[ancient star]

It has its ups and downs. My town isn't very "with the times" so any tech jobs I might want I have to apply to remotely or move.

I tend to get nervous and freeze up during video conferencing, though, so remote interviews are very nerve-wracking for me. I do very well in-person, and on the phone. But Zoom, etc? Eugh.... I don't know why.

[gaunt elbow]

many remote oportunities in the US at the moment?

they say they're pushing back in-person work

[ancient star]

remote software jobs
Sort by: relevance - date
Page 1 of 220,761 jobs

According to indeed "remote software" in "usa" search. 🙂

That being said, I can't speak for the legitimacy of every one of those. Indeed might not be the best indicator.

[gaunt elbow]

you're looking for one?

can tell you that the data engineering field is desperate for python devs

good python knowledge + familiarity with the pyspark API + some sql flavour

that will get you a first job

maybe not 50k / year but still a job

[ancient star]

I am very much still learning the fundamentals of Python. I've been at it for 9 weeks in total. That's why I haven't done applications lol. I am still useless ahahaha.

[gaunt elbow]

lool thats fine

[ancient star]

I just enjoy the conversation here because it sort of keeps me 'on topic' and focused on my goal of getting a job /someday/

[gaunt elbow]

I wrote some tips above for @safe loom

if you enjoy what you're learning it should not be too difficult to land that first job

from there onwards, if the current state of the job market keeps on going, it'll be fairly easy to get some more decent salary by changing jobs

[ancient star]

I read them! Some great tips.

[gaunt elbow]

yeah just don't get overwhelmed by all the different stuff to learn

some of it it is fairly complex, but very often it's just something you learn as you need and get used to

[safe loom]

Yeah tbh it's more the state of the market that demotivates me. Feels like my reconversion path have been for naught. On top of feeling like a mcdonalds employee asking for a higher position (I'm in reconversion so I already don't fit the ideal profile from a masters in marketing or statistics)

[gaunt elbow]

what you mean marketing or stats?

I was just refering to the job markets for devs, particularly python devs but applies to most other I guess

[safe loom]

They're asking for very specific positions in France: https://fr.indeed.com/jobs?q=data scientist&l=France&vjk=61530aa10a892509

[gaunt elbow]

ohh data science

that's too vague of a job description nowadays lol

very serious data science / ML roles will want a phd in math

but i think a lot of them just required some knowledge about the most used models, some sql, maybe BI tools

I'm too familiar with that though

what reconversion are you in?

[safe loom]

I'm reconverting as a data and AI developer, which mixes data science, analytics and engineering, without delving in a master/PhD degree (7 months)

[gaunt elbow]

I don't really know how job interviews for data science, but maybe it would be a good idea to refresh on some math concepts

makes it easier to understand some models

vector spaces, analysis, some optimization stuff

it's a very complex field honestly

I know that very often DS jobs do not require many programming skills, say just enough to make a PoC

so there's an opportunity to try to make a difference

my previous employers are completely desperate to find python devs with some ML knowledge (not pure data science people per se)

[safe loom]

I've done linear algebra in university. I could always take a look at the MML book (Mathematics in Machine Learning) for a refresher.

[gaunt elbow]

I guess it depends on the type of job you want

more dev oriented -> knowing how to choose and interpret models, along with being familiar the APIs of their implementations, will probably suffice; meaning, not too much theory needed

more reasearch oriented -> you probably won'0t need to be a top programmer, but math and basically knowing how to describe the models theoretically is a must

just find out what you enjoy the most and go for it

[ancient star]

I am very bad at math, but very lucky to have a friend who is pursuing his phd in Physics, who is great at it and loves to teach lol.

[safe loom]

I like dev oriented. Research can lead to uncertainty. Also it's been 10 years since my last master thesis so I've gotten soft on it

[undone willow]

Hi all. Has anyone here ever gotten a coding challenge from a job? What was it like?

[peak halo]

what sort of position? I got a coding challenge for a data scientist position; not sure if that's relevant to you

[slim raven]

It seems like every job description says "require 3+ experience in the industry"

So people just graduate from college and magically have 3+ years of experience? If I can't find a job without 3+ years of experience then I will never have 3+ years of experience?? How does it work

[austere tartan]

It uh.. doesn't. Apply to these roles anyway. My company used to have this requirement until we realized how many (good!) candidates it was filtering out.

[undone willow]

From a programming in Python role I would say. I want to be a full stack developer and I’m wondering what challenges they give out at companies

[delicate bane]

this is a meme talked about all the time 💀

[delicate bane]

tech is great for remote work. my current company is in TN but i live in TX

[undone willow]

IVe heard just apply anyways and hope. On top of that make sure to have projects listed on top and maybe skills (Python etc) below.

I am no expert though and maybe you can find better advice. Good luck 🙂

[near frigate]

Hi

I am new

and

want to know how to code

do you people know where i should go?

[carmine pollen]

you mean how to start learning how to code?

[narrow kettle]

Go to YouTube, and search for freecodecamp, you have a ton of free courses on that channel, for absolute begginers

[vapid jay]

I feel like I'm not where I want to be in my career right now.. cuz I see younger people get the same salary as me for less work..

because they're in companies that pay more.. How should I go about this.. do I upskill to switch to them, or to better positions

[buoyant seal]

if u got at least 1-2 years of commercial programming experience AND feeling like reached middle rank profficiency
start looking for new jobs, going to interviews, but don't quit current job until you found new one 😉 Once you got accepted, then move on.
else:
suck it up, and learn hard, so you can be sure to find the new job with your skills, or perhaps you will be just promoted in current company

[brittle thorn]

What about giving us more context if you can? What are your skill sets versus the younger and better paid people?

[vapid jay]

im mid exec level.. my skills are on robotics and partly development on cloud side..

[buoyant seal]

shrugs, then just search new jobs in background while continuing to do your duties, if you are confident in your ability to find new job

even if you will not find anything, you will check yourself against valid current market
it is healthy, at least once in a year to go through interviews

[vapid jay]

upskilling now.. going to wait a few months before moving, want to complete my two year stint here..

but how to manage time with work.. for upskilling

[buoyant seal]

1. getting used to spending free time in evenings and weekends for that, I learn by books and pet projects, and speaking in some communities is helping me too
2. incorporating learned things to practice in every day work life to deepen the knowledge

[vapid jay]

how often should I commit to making github contributions

[buoyant seal]

if u have 40 hours+ work, I would say it should be pretty low.
better to concentrate in free time in book reading, learning theory material.
And doing just enough in github contributions, to try new technologies / test them how they work, in order to be confident in applying at work further

[vapid jay]

alright then.. thanks a bunch man

[neon zephyr]

learn C++, Perl and as well as a functional language i.e. Haskell or something
@vapid jay

[near ocean]

Why those recommendations?

[vague pollen]

e

[neon zephyr]

C++ u learn alot about computers and low level stuff
Perl is used in alot of build stuff
and Haskell(or any other functional language i.e. Lisp, F#, Ocaml and many more) just expands ur mind in programming
no need to work in them but knowing them is good

[near ocean]

its not always necessary to know low level stuff and Perl is being pushed out of the way more and more
I'd suggest something like C#/Java and JS/python for scripting/build things
for functional i'd suggest f# if going with c# above or haskell

[neon zephyr]

what about C/C++

[buoyant seal]

Silly, completely silly recommendations

person should learn stuff that is directly can be used at the work.
Time to learn everything was in university, when we were little birds seeking our field.
At work there is no need for not needed stuff, we already decided our specialization and we need to learn relevant tools

[vapid jay]

Ok, so, hello, a question: What's the best practice to hunt for the very first job?

Is it mailbombing? Please, say it's something more than just mailbombing.

[near ocean]

Mailbombing as in cold mailing places to try to apply?

[vapid jay]

Answering to any python related job offer without more than 1-2 year of experience, no matter other technologies they use.

[near ocean]

Oh, yes, its a numbers game, keep at it
Software requirements are HR wishlists, disregard and apply to whatever you think might be fun

[true harness]

no matter other technologies they use
this seems like a bad idea, but I wouldn't know

[vapid jay]

It's just that I am having a hobby project in python, and html (with css, of course), and django, but flask? didn't touch, PostgreSQL? will move my SQLlite to it before going online (it's an old school browser game), anything else? well, I never used it - so, I look for python-html/css-django offers which most likely are indeed a wish-list, but no one answers

[gritty rivet]

I don't fully agree with the numbers game philosophy. Yes, apply for as many jobs as you reasonably can, especially when they don't require long tedious application forms... but target your search and network with real people. Find people who have the kinds of jobs you want from backgrounds like yours (LinkedIn is a huge resource here) and ask them how they found their job. They may know specific openings, good recruiters to work with, etc. A lot of people I know who first break in to the field are able to do so because they know someone at the company. In other cases, like myself, I found out about my job from another job seeker who got rejected for the same job.

[frosty terrace]

is knowing python enough to get hired?

also how much should I expect for a salary?

[peak halo]

Not really. Python is a tool. You need to know how to use it to solve a certain set of problems, as well as the other tools that are needed to solve those problems.

[peak halo]

This depends on your location, credentials, the position, and the company. You can get an estimate with the website glassdoor.

[frosty terrace]

i have a github with 3 projects, 2 are very large ones, they are mobile apps using kivy, would that be worthy of being hired?

[peak halo]

where are you located, generally, and do you have any credentials like a degree?

my understanding is that web development has a lower barrier to entry than other types of development.

[frosty terrace]

NYC area, no degree unfortunately for programming, self-learned, got a bachelor's in business

[peak halo]

You might look into getting a post bacc in CS.

[frosty terrace]

taking any classes or going to school is completely out of question for me

[peak halo]

It sounds unlikely to me that this career change could be successful, unfortunately.

But you can always apply and see what response you get. Glassdoor is where I would look to see what salaries are out there in the NYC market.

[frosty terrace]

I thought the industry no longer cares about degrees?

[peak halo]

That's wrong.

#pedagogy message

[frosty terrace]

I actually know plenty of people without a degree that got a programming job, so this is a little confusing

[peak halo]

What kind of programming?

[near ocean]

also what kind of people, bigbrains are going to find work no matter what piece of paper they carry, if any

[frosty terrace]

PHP

[peak halo]

PHP is a language; what are they doing?

[frosty terrace]

Backend for websites

[peak halo]

Well, as I mentioned earlier, web development is the domain of programming with the lowest barrier to entry.

[near ocean]

are you sure theyre not just wordpress jockies?

[frosty terrace]

I'm sure, seems like a lot of hostility for self-taught programmers, I mean if I get lucky, then I get lucky. If not, well oh well, I'll just seek other opportunities. I did exceptionally well in school, top of my college and everything, nothing is taught in school of importance. So I'm not wasting my time and money and if a business thinks it's important, then that's not the business i want to work with.

[peak halo]

nothing is taught in school of importance.
this is an overstatement.

[near ocean]

no hostility at all, making this shit more accessible is why we're all here
just being realistic about your chances getting a job without the paper, in the end its up to you to decide whether you wanna take the risk or not

Also the only way to drive change away from all this degree slobbering is by doing exactly this

So I'm not wasting my time and money and if a business thinks it's important, then that's not the business i want to work with.

[gritty rivet]

I have an irrelevant degree, only know Python, was recently hired as a remote SWE making $76k/year at a small startup.

[peak halo]

(This aligns with godlygeek's comment in #pedagogy about small companies being less likely to care.)

[frosty terrace]

I hear a lot of those stories, I know people who are hired without a degree in top positions making 100k+. Even getting hired as a data analyst could be good enough. The idea of getting a degree or passing, sounds like a terrible career choice and something I've never heard anywhere but here actually.

[peak halo]

There's always anecdata, but success stories aren't the whole picture. non-success stories don't get relayed.

but we're telling you to go ahead and apply and to see what response you get.

[frosty terrace]

I'm actually pretty shocked to be honest. I did loads of research online, I just went here for a little confirmation. I would assume that someone who hired a person who knows how to make a program, not someone who has a degree. A degree really doesn't mean anything, coming from someone with a business management degree.

[gritty rivet]

If you already have a degree in something else, going back for another degree in CS isn't going to be practical or advisable for most people (especially people in their 40s like me). But there are a lot of young people who come here looking for confirmation that college is a waste of time and money and I agree with the consensus that that is misguided

[frosty terrace]

I'm also older and I don't have the time or money to get an education, which I know for a fact I would learn far less than I would just doing it. I bought books for programming, learning nothing. I only learned by doing and solving my problems when they appeared.

[near ocean]

this is textbook survivorship bias

you only ever hear stories about the few that made it through, not about the tons that didnt

you dont hear about the countless harvard dropouts that failed to make anything of themselves but you will hear about billy gates

[vapid jay]

We need more stories like that; it's like a lit candle in darkness.

[vapid jay]

I am in similar situation. I purchased (but wait for promotion) a course on Udemy. So far so good.

[frosty terrace]

Welcome to the real world, that's pretty much with everything. I'm looking at a perspective where I use my resources efficiently. The vast majority don't have an option to just go to school, nor do they have the time for it. I can also say you're trying to justify having a degree.

[peak halo]

I think this conversation has run its course.

[royal flax]

Well said!

[frosty terrace]

just thought i throw it out there, I'm getting calls already for job offers

[sudden quartz]

There are exceptions to everything, but those exceptions are the same people winning competitions at Kaggle and Defcon. But what people never hear about in extension, are the future of these people.
And success stories on getting hired as a SWE without a CS/stem degree or degree at all exist, but what you dont hear about those stories is that they arent a top contributor to the projects there, and if they change a tech stack or you are laid off, you have a pretty hard time.

In comparison, people with CS degrees are literally comfortable in almost any route in the job market regarding high paying jobs...

[frosty terrace]

i havent been a programmer but I can tell you that a good cover letter and resume can definitely stand out

[summer roost]

For a mid career professional trying to make a switch, the best chance is usually to try to find a job that utilizes your current expertise as well as some programming. I know people who moved from data analysis to data science to software engineering, for instance. If you can't find a way to do a lateral move, you're competing with fresh college grads for entry level jobs, and you'll look like a higher risk option to the company than them.

[frosty terrace]

I'm just looking for entry level programming jobs. Honestly, most requirements are 2+ years with python. Bachelor's degree too, but none specify CS.

isn't there a shortage in programmers? Especially reliable ones?

[sudden quartz]

No

[summer roost]

At the senior level, yes. At the junior level, nah.

[summer roost]

Any degree is better than no degree, though a CS degree is best, and a STEM degree is better than other degrees.

[frosty terrace]

wouldn't that depend? most jobs don't want people with no working experience, regardless of education.

[sterile skiff]

who is from india

[smoky quest]

Every junior job does not require working experience

[summer roost]

Relevant industry experience matters more than a degree, but if you're competing for entry level programming jobs, you don't have any relevant industry experience, either. That's why I suggested trying to find jobs that would leverage your existing expertise.

[distant ore]

me but am 14 lmaooo

[gritty rivet]

What I keep hearing is that there is a shortage of experienced programmers. Getting that first job in the field isn't such a breeze with so many of us career changers right now. And that's why you see so many "entry level" jobs demanding years of experience

[tender osprey]

What are y’all up to

[frosty terrace]

is it common for people to ask for a work permit?

[tender osprey]

What future jobs y’all want to get into?

[sudden quartz]

programming

[tender osprey]

I didn’t think of that! Such a unique answer xd

[sudden quartz]

theres a channel for jokes

[tender osprey]

Well send em there

[smoky quest]

It's a complex topic and a lot of aspects are being conflated together.
The majority of the audience on this server are teenagers. And the majority of the questions asked here are from these teenagers asking if they can get the equivalent career of someone with a bs/ms but without putting the work. And obviously, someone out of HS won't be able to compete with BS/MS who put 3-5 years full time to study for it.

You are standing out as a reconversion. So yes, you can eventually find a job and yes, it's understandable a degree might be a bit late for you, but you also won't necessarily be looking at the same career path.
A lot of conversion from nothing to cs end up in webdev, which would also look differently from people converting from a relevant field with relevant experience

[tender osprey]

Is anyone thinking of being an AI developer/engineer ?

[summer roost]

Like visa sponsorship, or something else?

[frosty terrace]

i assume, but if you're a citizen of the country, why ask that, it's a job in america lol

[pseudo niche]

I am wondering this too. Even jobs are remote, why they are asking visa sponsorship?

[summer roost]

Tax laws. Having someone work remotely for your US company from the US is different from a tax point of view than having someone work remotely for your US company from another country.

[summer roost]

Usually they ask about work authorization rather than citizenship, to avoid any possible racial or ethnic bias while screening resumes.

[pseudo niche]

Can it be arranged as a contractor or reducing salary instead of tax?

[summer roost]

The relevant question isn't "are you a US citizen" but "can you legally work in the US"

[pseudo niche]

Nearly all of USA remote jobs are asking work authorization.

[gritty rivet]

That is correct.

In my limited experience anyway

[pseudo niche]

So entry level remote jobs are actually not remote if you are out of that country.

[frosty terrace]

im so confused, did i really just get a job for 85k just like that?

[gritty rivet]

Are they asking for your bank account details before anything else? Then no 😉

[frosty terrace]

no they didn't ask me anything like that

[gritty rivet]

Right, if they want entry-level work done abroad they're generally going to contract that out instead of dealing with direct hiring

[frosty terrace]

that's the thing i hate about remote jobs, always afraid of scams, this is extremely weird. It's a job in linkedin, seems legit?

[gritty rivet]

@pseudo niche Or they might go to a platform like Upwork for something small

[summer roost]

I don't know that being posted to LinkedIn adds any particular legitimacy. What's the company? How many employees do they have? What was the interview like?

[gritty rivet]

They try to take down the scams but they can't always keep up. Just do your due dilegence, read any paperwork they send you carefully, etc.

[near ocean]

You dont have a job until you have a signed contract so dont get too excited

[frosty sail]

From experiences I’ve heard from friends, I’d expand that to “you don’t have a job until the first paycheck clears and is in your bank account”

[pseudo niche]

I see there are a lots of opportunities for senior level remote jobs. But for entry level, it is look like hard..

[frosty terrace]

oh ok, so they sent me information, it's an interview process.

[gritty rivet]

Right, that's what I would expect

[frosty terrace]

Neat, I got an interview for 85k job.

They're not taking any important information, just basic stuff too. So might be legit.

[summer roost]

$85k is a reasonable entry level salary for a junior in the US, depending on the particular skills they're asking for. So, the salary is in the right range to not be a scam.

[gritty rivet]

No small victory. Even if you bomb your first interview, it's almost always a valuable learning experience in my view

[summer roost]

Interviewing is a skill like any other. Practice helps improve your performance.

[frosty terrace]

I'm very surprised, I never had calls this quick before, this because of covid?

[frosty sail]

probably best not to think too hard into it. There's too many factors you're not in control of/ever aware of that answer a question like that

[summer roost]

Big companies are usually faster to reach out than small ones, but it might just come down to the work load of the person/team who does their candidate screening.

[pseudo niche]

Is there any suggestion for that? I am practicing more day by day.. Increase projects portfolio is not effecting this I guess.

[gritty rivet]

It's not usual for small startups to interview almost automatically anyone who sends a resume in some cases

[pseudo niche]

Also if they say 85k$ at linkedin, is it gross or net salary? for remote jobs.

[gritty rivet]

I would aim for jobs in your own country first.

[near ocean]

Its always gross pay

[gritty rivet]

That's going to be gross, but may exclude bonuses, options, etc.

[pseudo niche]

That's not something I want.

[gritty rivet]

It seems like you have an unreasonable expectation then... As you seemed to say yourself, US companies are not looking to hire remote foreign workers without experience and that seems like a correct assessment.

[frosty sail]

Hiring foreign nationals is a lot of legal work for the company doing the hiring. So you have to be a very valuable applicant to make it worth it. If your skills are typical of entry level and you are attempting to apply to a remote job that's in a different country, you're basically just filtering for companies that are desperate and/or okay with breaking tax laws. You'd have to be very lucky to find a good job.

[gritty rivet]

you know you need experience to achieve your goal, there is no reason to think you will find some "one weird trick" to circumvent that

[pseudo niche]

Well that was not I thought. Because I thought if I have good portfolio they consider to take interview with me to ask code problems.

The reason I don't want to work in my country that is not salary. I want to make real things, improve my skills and really get challenged.

[gritty rivet]

Have you ever spoke to anyone with such experience? I have not. But if you find such a person, they would be the best person to give you advice

[pseudo niche]

No, I don't but since it is coding I thought at least they want to see your code ability.

[pseudo niche]

Btw, I know you are right and I am not judging their decision. Just for any engineering or job type it makes sense for ask work auth. But for software/code.. I don't know it doesn't make sense for me

[gritty rivet]

I think you could probably do that while working at a company (foreign or domestic) with local operations in India. If not, you could certainly gain relevant experience that might allow you to reach your goals in due time

[summer roost]

Sorry to be blunt, but: your English skills are not great. You're saying something grammatically wrong in almost every sentence, which would also be a big negative for a fully remote worker, since fully remote workers need to be able to communicate technical topics clearly through text.

[gritty rivet]

If you really feel strongly that the opportunities aren't adequate in India I would think your best bet is to apply to foreign degree programs as a student. Or potentially you could get a company to sponsor your visa to come here, but that's probably a lot more difficult without experience

When I was first looking for entry-level Python jobs, I was almost jealous of people in India... I know the pay is low but there are a LOT of those jobs there. If you have a few years experience, that will change your opportunities

[pseudo niche]

I know my English skills are not good. That can be big zero for me when applying jobs. I never thought that, thanks.

[summer roost]

Sure. I don't intend to pick on you, it's easy enough to understand what you're trying to say. But remote work tends to require much stronger communication skills than in person work would.

[pseudo niche]

Well I am actually living in Turkey, not India. But thanks a lot. I don't know software industry well but I will consider your suggestions.

[gritty rivet]

Ah, my mistake, sorry!

Have you looked platforms like Upwork? It's not stable employment, but you can potentially find work with US-based clients on there

[pseudo niche]

I was trying to say, it is little different than my expectation. After little more practicing I will check them all. Thanks for your time and suggestions.

[smoky quest]

Have you looked at remote jobs for EU?
They are closer to your time zone and may be easier to find something

[thick steppe]

hey guys. im quite new to programming but I'd say im intermediate in python. it is however the only language i know so far. im still in high school but i really want to pursue a career in computer science. any tips, suggestions or resources? what are the essentials in order to do so? i dont know where to start, so anything would be greatly appreciated!

[smoky quest]

The main thing for you is to get grades good enough to get into a CS university/college.

Beyond that, have fun and explore different areas (webdev, mobile, robotics, backend, games, etc.). It will help you understand what you like and dislike and learn different skills along the way

[thick steppe]

oh i see, thanks for the response. right now it's just a hobby but hopefully I'll be able to get to that point!

[smoky quest]

In terms of skills, you can also refer to https://roadmap.sh/, but I wouldn't take it too seriously at your stage. The breadth of knowledge will be more important than the depth at your stage

[pseudo niche]

I found some entry level jobs in UK but they are asking work permit. I will continue to search

[smoky quest]

EU is larger than just the UK :p

[smoky quest]

Also out of curiosity, why looking for jobs outside of Turkey? How is the job market there?

[pseudo niche]

Now, I need to improve my geography skills too 🙂

[near ocean]

UK isnt even in the EU anymore, they have different requirements now

[keen wagon]

Hello Software Engineer from California looking for work. Please dm me

[verbal lava]

Heyy I really want to start learning Python, can anyone help me out giving me tips on where to start ?

Thanks 🙏🏼

[pseudo niche]

Well actually software industry is growing fast, but they are offering low salary if you compare to $. Also another reason is most of jobs are about web development (mostly java, php) or about game development c# or other languages.

[smoky quest]

Any remote job will pay you based on your location, not based on their HQ location

[smoky quest]

Hi! this channel is about #career-advice .
You may want to try #python-discussion or #❓｜how-to-get-help to increase your odds of an answer

[pseudo niche]

I am not expert but

1. https://www.freecodecamp.org/ has great videos for python beginners.
2. For the book: LEARN PYTHON 3 THE HARD WAY, Zed A. Shaw. you may check it.
3. Open github account, look over codes and projects. For any kind of code errors you can make research at https://stackoverflow.com/
4. Someone already uploaded this picture here, for project ideas.

[safe loom]

Why would a quiz game be considered a pro-project btw?

[pseudo niche]

I know that. The main reason is not salary, Big tech companies can be good but for other companies I don't think I can improve myself and my skills at those companies.

[pseudo niche]

Hahah I don't know. Someone uploaded here before, I saved it just for project ideas but you are right

[smoky quest]

ah fair enough

[safe loom]

On a side note it's disheartening to hear from my close circle "keep applying and pray to God it will work" because that doesn't help.

I'd like to work on a classic big data project without trying to ruin myself over cloud money to get brownie points towards recruiters.

[smoky quest]

have you tried getting involved in some open source projects related to big data?

[safe loom]

Last one was a collaborative project but I haven't tried the big open source ones.

I could try Selenium and correct a few typos on the doc

[smoky quest]

The ASF has tons of big data related projects. But most of them will involve more java than python 😉

[mortal wedge]

There's an open data science position at my work. As they'll be a critical member in my project, I'll be in the final round of interviews with them before they join the company. I've never interviewed anyone before, I have no idea what to do.

[safe loom]

It's ok, I'm familiar with Java. Less with Scala but I can set up a JVM easily haha

Also what's ASF @smoky quest ?

[smoky quest]

You should ask the hiring manager about how they want to do it.
A general guideline:

• Present yourself and give an outline of the interview - ~5min
• Ask them to present themselves - ~5min
• Have a discussion - ~10-15min. It can be an opportunity to dig into their history, experience or ask about demonstrated skills or behavioral questions
• Have a technical session/question - ~20-30min
• Leave some time at the end in case they have any question about the job, team, company or anything - 5min

Adjust as necessary

[smoky quest]

Apache Software Foundation

[smoky quest]

Note that sometimes, for specific assessments, the discussion and technical session are merged into one to get more time

But in any case, the hiring manager should coordinate the interview panel so you don't all ask the same questions and are aligned in terms of what you are trying to assess for

[summer roost]

I'd add that for your first time interviewing, it would be helpful to have someone more experienced paired up with you until you're comfortable. Before the interview, discuss with whoever you're paired up with for 5 or 10 minutes, and discuss what you'll ask, and who will ask each of those questions

[safe loom]

Hmm, do they have something I could build up in 2 hours that I can show off on my github?

[smoky quest]

Also try to remove any bias and focus on the demonstrated set of skills.
And try to think about things you can ask multiple candidates so you can have a better idea of how to gauge answers

[smoky quest]

Not on top of my head.
2h is rather short if you count the time to clone, build and setup and understand the goal.

If you are that short on time, I would look for some of the github labels for beginner's tasks.

I could also point out to some stuff I could use help with on my open source project but that would not only doxx me but also sort of fall in advertisements

[smoky quest]

You may also try to contact some of the admin or event staff of this discord. They do run some infra and may need some volunteering help.

[smoky quest]

Looks like https://github.com/MunGell/awesome-for-beginners has such list

[safe loom]

Thanks! I could also use that list whenever I want to explore new languages or frameworks.

[frosty sail]

I'm not meaning to be overly critical, but what you're saying makes no sense to me. There's no such thing as a big data project that doesn't cost a lot of money. That's a necessary consequence of the "big" adjective. You can for sure play around with data engineering tools with small data, if that's what you mean. You can take the little courses in spark, kafka, the many various apache data formatting/etl/querying tools, etc. and get the certs for them on your resume. I may be misunderstanding what you mean by "big data project".

[undone willow]

Hi all. I wanted to ask if anyone here has ever failed out of a CS course. Were you able to successfully pass it later? What went wrong and how did you get through it?

[safe loom]

ou can for sure play around with data engineering tools with small data, if that's what you mean. You can take the little courses in spark, kafka, the many various apache data formatting/etl/querying tools, etc. and get the certs for them on your resume.
That's mostly what I meant sorry. I wanted to show on my github I'm not completely ignorant about it

[frosty sail]

ah okay ya cool carry on then

[glacial bronze]

I failed a course in every way. Early courses in my department are rigorous and I wasnt experienced with rigor or programming so I failed multiple times. I good comprehension but bad working memory, focus, and time management. I felt I understood the work but wasnt proficient in doing the work. Things take a long time for me to do in comparison to others I believe. Dont psych yourself out, do the work and ensure the TA or professor guides you well. If you dont do it as fast as the other students youre missing something that talking with them with help you find out

[frosty sail]

So I've never failed a course (I came real close a few times), but I've taught college courses and helped failing students out before. So anyway: I'd say it's important to identify exactly why you failed before trying to take the course again. Was it something you could control? Does the university offer resources (office hours, tutors, directly asking professors for help, asking classmates for help) that you can take advantage of but which you did not the first time around? If you have control over the things that you think caused you to fail, fix them. If you can't, you need to figure out how to take advantage of other personal strengths and tools at your disposal to ameliorate that problem.

Also, this happens to more people than you might think, and it'll be okay. Worst case, if it's an absolutely core class to your degree that's only offered once a year, it may push your graduation back a semester. It's emotional, it's embarrassing, but you're in good company of plenty of perfectly smart and talented people who just had a bad week/month/year and then were able to get "back on track" - quotations cus societal expectations are bullshit anyway. I've had a student who I had to decide to put on academic probation for cheating (in an attempt to avoid failing out of the course) get their act together the next year, graduate, and get a job like all of their class mates. Life is long and we all make mistakes.

[glacial bronze]

Yeah I know people who failed courses and yet their first job out of college was at IBM making 100k

and they werent like me who always had good comprehension of the concepts. For example I consistently made the highest grades on the open answer conceptual tests

despite failing courses

[summer roost]

You'd also be shocked at how much time and effort professors and TAs are willing to spend to help get you on track and caught up. For the most part, they've chosen to teach because they want to help people learn, and will gladly dedicate their time outside of class to helping you.

[glacial bronze]

so just do your best and make the cut ^

dont let failing courses get you down

[undone willow]

I worked hard and used a lot of TA’s time to get me situated. And I do think it helped slightly. But I ultimately failed.

One course I can’t explain it. It was a programming course that I used the majority of my time on. A lot of people failed this teachers class but this course made me doubt myself the most. I remember doing the projects but having so much of my points taken away because of commenting. The commenting was what killed everyone tbh. We just didn’t know how to do it well and before we could practice more to get it right bae just kept doing projects. And as the projects were finished we found that commenting things got harder. And harder. And then yeah fail.

The other was a course I no longer need to take. It was computer foundations. It dealt with 0’s and 1’s and how to use MIPS for basic computing knowledge. That one made me program something that I didn’t know shit in. But I did sorta get it.

Tbh I sorta got both corses but. Not enough.

Edit: ty all for taking the time. Programming is hard but I want to do it. I want to learn how to do well and provide for myself. I’m 27 and I’m now trying to find a way to pay for a second bachelors to get my CS degree while working on fundamentals like flask, databesss, and other full stack subjects.

[sudden quartz]

@undone willow Are you not in school now? If you have a bachelors just focus on getting better at programing and self study and try to get a transitional masters. Or one of many post-bacc cs options.

[frosty sail]

to be blunt, professors are human too, and have human failings. Some professors are arrogant and will make you jump through dubious hoops like "write comments exactly the way I want or fail". As a student, you really have no other alternative than to learn their quirks, play the game, and pass the course even if you didn't learn much by doing so.

the solution there is kind of obvious - ask the unreasonable professor what they want you to do sooner in the course, and then do it.

anyway good luck @undone willow

[summer roost]

Advising someone who's currently struggling with undergrad programming classes to pursue a post-bacc CS degree instead makes no sense to me at all. What's your rationale for that?

[undone willow]

I’m in school but finishing my degree in business degree an HR focus.

Edit. It’s shit. And I’m prob going to teach middle school (teacher shortage) and get money to get that second bachelors. It’ll be a BA in CS but I hear it works for people.

And ofc try to keep up with programming. It will be tough.

[keen wagon]

Anyone need a dev?

[white verge]

Hello

Any one there

[peak halo]

@keen wagon We don't allow recruiting here.

[peak halo]

Nope 😛

[sudden quartz]

after they focus on self study and programming, then pursue a post-bacc (transitional), which can be far less rigorous than undergraduate CS they are considering

[white verge]

https://tenor.com/view/why-whatever-gif-23592041

[sudden quartz]

and bootcamps, etc., are good too

[peak halo]

post bacc being less rigerous than traditional undergraduate CS? I had three classmate who were post bacc students, and they were taking the same classes as me. (The in-major ones, that is.)

[delicate bane]

post bacc programs have usually the same classes

[pearl gate]

What’s going on everyone! Brand new here in school for database management but thinking of changing to security and data assurance. Only in my second semester of school as well

[delicate bane]

good luck. have you also explored the possibility of data engineering

[pearl gate]

No. Never thought about. Was basically told database is the best after explaining how much into tech I am. Now that I’m branching and looking and have some friends in security I’m becoming more interested.

[lusty nebula]

@blissful gull you can ask something in here

[delicate bane]

its good that youre branching out and looking. i think you should look into other fields and see if they'd be worth your time and energy. i only mention data engineering since its in high demand and you could probs transition easily from db management if thats something youre interested in; def take a look at all the opportunities out there

[lusty nebula]

Oops wrong one

[delicate bane]

cant speak too much about security since i dont have experience nor friends in that field, but i think its worth exploring. all i have is this visual https://www.cyberseek.org/pathway.html

[pearl gate]

@delicate bane thanks! I’ll defiantly keep looking into diffrent branches it’s insane the amount of different areas you can cover in it! I love it

[delicate bane]

at the very least, it tells you which roles focus on which skill sets

[pearl gate]

@delicate bane oh wow thanks for the info graphic! That’s pretty cool with it being all together and informative!

[slim raven]

Anyone know what's a "Graphics Diagnostic Engineer"?

[graceful mason]

sounds like a role specific to the company - AMD describes it as:

    The candidate would be responsible for planning, designing, writing, debugging and optimizing functional and stress tests for 3D graphics hardware IP.
    Collaborate with hardware architects and logic designers to solve functional issues, and customer support engineers to help resolve testing deficiencies.
    Explore and adopt new or evolving testing methodologies used in the industry to verify complex ASIC designs within aggressive production schedules.
    Work within existing test infrastructure on currently active projects.
    Participate in system-level verification planning.

[vapid jay]

anyone here know a good browser/online IDE for python? I'm trying to take full advantage of my time to code

[peak halo]

there's replit, but the channel for that is #editors-ides

[fleet forge]

I'm not sure what channel to ask this, so I'll say it here
How do the good programmers deal with recency bias?
Also, what kind of learning and mental techniques do you employ in your learning processes?

[quartz halo]

can anybody help me with OpenCV And CSV file?

[graceful mason]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[quartz halo]

bro i am new

[smoky quest]

What's the problem when learning to program?
It's to be expected for the latest things to be on top of your mind when you learn new concepts

[storm estuary]

Hi Everyone, I'm Final Year Student and Python Enthusiast. I want to get in Open Source using Python. Can anyone suggest or guide me about which path should I select.

Count me level as Intermediate. I'm also Sharing my GitHub for better understanding.

https://github.com/Muhammad-Ahsan-Rasheed

[smoky quest]

https://github.com/MunGell/awesome-for-beginners might be of interest

[smoky quest]

Welcome aboard!
Hopefully you get to find the right help you need

[storm estuary]

Looks awesome, Thanks.

Can I get learning resources for open source if possible.

[smoky quest]

like what?

[fleet forge]

Yeah

I'm asking how you combat that
I want to avoid using stuff just because it's newer.
I've thought about using some kind of spaced repetition to retain the concepts of things I've already learnt -- that way, I can somewhat still think in terms of older solutions to analyse which is better.
But any help would be appreciated.

[smoky quest]

Combat what? How is it a problem?
I fail to see how it would be something to fix

[fleet forge]

When I just learnt the if statement and wanted to build a Rock, paper, scissors game, all I could think of was multiple if-elses.
I didn't even stop to maybe think of using a dictionary or something simpler.
The dictionary variant ended up using less than half the lines of code for the same thing, but I had to read it from someone's implementation.

[smoky quest]

Ah got it.
That's fine. With more experience, it will help put it into more context.
If you are still early in the learning path, that's actually awesome to be so excited you are trying to apply it everywhere!

[fleet forge]

I see.
Thank you for your time.

[strong jetty]

Is there anyone who is a competitive programming enthusiast?

[formal zinc]

Not sure if this is allowed please reply and let me know if not! (I do not work at MSFT)
https://twitter.com/nnja/status/1501701577836359681

From Microsoft:
I'm thrilled to announce that I'm hiring a Python AI/ML Advocate for my team!

Do you:

• ❤️ the scientific Python community?
• have experience with common tools & frameworks used by researchers and devs?
• write, speak, or make vids on the topic?

Nina Zakharenko 💙💛🇺🇦 (@nnja)

🎉I'm thrilled to announce that I'm hiring a Python AI/ML Advocate for my team!

Do you:

• ❤️ the scientific Python community?
• have experience with common tools & frameworks used by researchers and devs?
• write, speak, or make vids on the topic?

Apply: https://t.co/VOaXmW0PzI

Twitter · Mar 9, 2022, 11:28 PM

[undone willow]

Does anyone know a good alternatives to stack overflow jobs? Apparently they are shutting down and all that is left is LinkedIn.

[smoky quest]

indeed?

[pastel thunder]

i have a query about LOR from research internship......can someone spare few minutes?

[thick steppe]

that's helpful, thanks!

[safe loom]

Indeed, TotalJobs (UK), Glassdoor, WTTJ (French, English, Spanish), Angel.co and that's all I have on the top of my head.

Anybody want to add something?

[obsidian acorn]

For tech jobs, indeed is the way to go, many a times, recruiters may reach out to you.

[near fern]

Yall got any idea why some employers seem to just not like US candidates? Couple of the jobs I applied to a while back were iffy about me being American, its not a case of they wanted me to be for example a European citizen, but specifically they didn't like me being a US citizen

[undone willow]

That’s a big oof.

Edit: if anyone knows anything that’s be interesting to read on.

[near fern]

Sketchy as hell

[undone willow]

@near fern how many jobs did this happen?

[near fern]

Just two or three aint like its something massive
just thought it was kinda interesting

[undone willow]

I pray it’s not systemic

[near ocean]

in other news, the bossman is hiring graduates and sent around some CVs for people to look at since we're all gonna be seeing them in some way or another
one of them has this section in their CV
how much of this do people think is accurate and what does this section even mean...
are they competent with it? are they a novice? they just saw some html some time?

like, would it be fair game to ask them about it or should i just shut up and not bother

[graceful mason]

Is HTML important to your job? If not, does it really matter to what degree they know it?

[buoyant seal]

It can be possibly due to higher salaries in US, in relative to anything else including Europe.

Looking briefly through US, i think it has like 1.5x multiplier to its salaries in comparison to other first world countries

[near ocean]

its not but something about w3schools triggers primal urges within me, might ask them about excel tho since thats where they'll spend most their time

[quartz halo]

hey guy can some help me with opencv puttext display ui

[delicate bane]

ask them about excel's limitations

also xlookup is super better than all the other lookups

since everything doesnt break when you add a column

[delicate bane]

this thought also came across my mind. maybe thats why they dont like US candidates? either that or they think they might leave after a couple years

[pine sleet]

SQL (W3School)
??

[near ocean]

very much confused myself

[sweet portal]

Would someone be willing to take a cursory glance at my github before I send it to a potential employer? Thanks in advance. I just want to be sure there is nothing terrible in there. https://github.com/nmerryman

[frosty sail]

Looks fine

[sweet portal]

:)

[solemn halo]

Anyone have any good recommendation or resources for finding entry level positions? Trying to transition into tech after 7+ years as a Mech Eng, and really struggling to get past the external recruiter stage to getting actual interviews. So many of the postings & recruiters I've talked to are looking for 3-5 years of professional Python experience.

A couple of friends I've talked to have said that my python/DSA knowledge is definitely up to level of getting an entry level role, but I don't know if I'm looking in the right places for them

[ancient star]

Looks better than mine! Your earth.py looks pretty cool too.

[safe loom]

I'm reluctant in publishing my GitHub there since I don't really wanna dox myself.

[frosty sail]

you can setup your github to use a masked email

[safe loom]

Oh yeah just realised I did that lmao

[frosty sail]

I mean obviously if your real name is on there that's not much protection but it's something

[safe loom]

Yeah I'm displaying my name on it since it's my "professional" Github account

I could DM it to some people though

[light radish]

I will be starting my new python job on Monday. I was previously an electrical engineer with 3 years of EE experience. What I did was look for ways to apply python at my work roles. Put that on my resume. If you are good with leetcode you can easily get interviews for Amazon and other companies

I didn’t use much python at work, maybe < 10%. I worded my resume in a way that I did use it a lot. Job postings are unrealistic. When they say 3-5 years experience they are still willing to take someone in with less than that.

[solemn halo]

Congrats!! Hope the new job goes well. Do you mean they sometimes ask for interviews with folks that have completed a certain amount/difficulty of problems? Or more that the problems set you up well for their interview questions?

[solemn halo]

Oh yea, I assumed/hoped that must be willing to take on people with less experience than the job posting.

[light radish]

So I am personally not a fan of leetcode, I absolute hate it. Any position that had leetcode/whiteboard in the interview process I instantly rejected. That being said I did get a lot of calls from recruiters who would get those interviews set up. Such as chase, Bank of America, Amazon, etc.

I focused on making a lot of projects in my free time. Such as a Django portfolio website, webscraping project, data analysis project.

The company I accepted the offer with did not have a whiteboard interview. It was still technical but they asked reasonable questions. For example about my projects, skills, python questions

My advice is to improve your resume, LinkedIn, and work on projects to stand out. With your ME experience you can get an entry-mid level job starting in six figures.

[solemn halo]

Thanks for the advice, and words of encouragement. I'll definitely work on trying to expand my portfolio of projects. Do you mind me asking how you generally got interviews?

[light radish]

Honestly as soon as I switched my LinkedIn to open to work I got about 5-10 messages from recruiters every day. This new job I got was the same way.

The big thing is to put Python Developer in your title or somewhere on your profile. What I did was put “Electrical Engineer | Python developer” as the title of my current job. Even though I didn’t use much python at work, the idea is to make it look like you were.

I also applied to a lot of jobs manually through LinkedIn and indeed. There is a GitHub somewhere with all the answers to those skill assessments on LinkedIn. Helps stand out a bit.

There are companies out there willing to give people who have less experience than others a chance. You have to stand out and be enthusiastic. You will find one ☝️. It took me about 2 months of searching to find this one. I’m not a python expert by any means. Just someone who is willing to learn and enthusiastic about it.

[undone willow]

@light radish thank you for your input. I still need to work on myself but I really want to find that 1 shot.

[low echo]

whats the highest paying dev area? solidity blockchain? app dev?

just looking for some inputs and peoples thoughts based off of their expiriences

[undone willow]

I'd argue security but that field is more than just simple python. I'd rather not go into that job description list

[smoky quest]

Engineers will typically work across different areas over the course of their careers. The skills will make more difference than the area itself.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @abstract trail until <t:1646951894:f> (9 minutes and 59 seconds) (reason: duplicates rule: sent 4 duplicated messages in 10s).

[sudden quartz]

they all pay the same. Its about your skills and what the company wants/needs, not the field.

[pastel thunder]

is it ok to categorize internships that include -Software Design For any component, as software developer internship?

[smoky quest]

The devil is in the details.
The guideline here is that if the reviewer is more confused at the end or feels cheated, then it's not a great idea

[pastel thunder]

-Software Design For fix speed indoor control board for air conditioners.

[smoky quest]

I don't really understand that sentence. That's a mouthful

Can you show it in the context of your resume?

[pastel thunder]

yes one sec i will show some detail

[smoky quest]

thanks!
And how does your sentence(s) fit in your resume?

[pastel thunder]

i dont get what you mean by fit?

[smoky quest]

where would you put -Software Design For fix speed indoor control board for air conditioners. in your resume?

[pastel thunder]

i want to put it as experience in this company.

[smoky quest]

got it. Then it's fine, but I would suggest to try to add some punctuation or stylistic changes to make it more clear about which part is which

[pastel thunder]

if you could suggest a clearer sentence that be great

[smoky quest]

Or trying to move fix speed to the end, or removing it altogether if it doesn't provide anything useful to the reader

Software Design for indoor control board in air conditioners, with fix speed

[pastel thunder]

Software Design for indoor control board in air conditioners
looks fine too

i should add fix speed in next line

[smoky quest]

sure

[pastel thunder]

ok thank you

[frosty terrace]

What are must frameworks to get hired as python developer?

[smoky quest]

depends on the job.
They should be listed in the job ad

[frosty terrace]

issue is they want you to know every programing language and framework lol

thinking about learning django, that a good one? I really need my foot in the door

[smoky quest]

no they don't. They only care about their need. And it's unlikely to use every single programming language and framework 😉
Django is great for backend dev!

[smoky quest]

Also to expand on it, most companies will care more about the skills than the specific framework and language. Framework/languages are easy to pick up and companies will care more about the transferable skills. See https://roadmap.sh/ for instance

[scarlet trench]

Hello guys

Anybody free i can talk to? Wanna start a career in python

[sudden quartz]

Im curious. I know the answer but what to grab after a BSCS. An AS in Cybersecurity (budget) or an MS in Cybersecuirty (renown)

[smoky quest]

since you have a BS in CS, another AS in a minor subject wouldn't add much.
A Ms would have a lot more value

[sudden quartz]

Any sort of accredidation past a comprehensive BSCS seems like a waste of time, to the individual

Of course in leader position in companies they like to see you with a MS, hence the funding

[frosty terrace]

I have to learn all of that?! oO

[smoky quest]

yeah, the bs/ms have that high of a value

[smoky quest]

Note that depends a lot on:

• the country. For instance in the USA, the ms vs bs is a bit more ambiguous. But in some EU country, the absence of a ms would definitely hurt your career
• how snobbish is the area. The more dominated by phds, the more snob the tendency in terms of degree requirement

[vapid jay]

Basically i got hired by a silicon valley company, i dont wanna reveal name for privacy reasons but they have me starting all the way in august. Is this normal??

[spark zinc]

hi guys

i need to decide between 1 of 3 research positions and i have no idea what to choose

1. machine learning research position that offers a position to publish a paper in a top tier ML journal ( i see this as a straight path to a good ML job)

2. controls + ML research position for drones, gives good ML experience

3. super mathy controls position with a good amount of C++ algorithms programming

as for my goals, i really like math and systems control but i also want experience that will get me a job in software engineering. AFAIK, where im from (canada), the good jobs in software eng are in ML (true?). so im tempted to accept position 1. however, position 3 is something i am REALLY passionate about but idk if having C++ programming experience for stochastic control means anything to employers. will they see it as a nice C++ project or will they just see it as a useless-ish piece of code that i wrote?

also, i understand the importance of doing what you are passionate about, but please understand how important getting a job is for me. i dont want to choose a position that will lessen my job prospects

[sudden quartz]

Go with what youre passionate about. Getting a job is easy. Having your dream job/position is hard. This is a nobrainer. Since your in research positions you probably have a Ms

[spark zinc]

im a second year undergrad and the way my university's coop work is that we have one big 16 month coop term after third year, so we apply in third year. hence, during the summer of second year, i want to increase my chances of getting a good position (im at U of Toronto if that helps at all, although that probably doxxes alot)

[sudden quartz]

so another Blind post. lol.

Do not worry about job prospects. Youre at Toronto for a reason, just focus on your work

[graceful mason]

Definitely go with your passion - just having a job for 12 months looks great to employers, let alone solid C++ experience, code reviewing etc etc

The good jobs in software eng are in ML - software engineering and machine learning tend not to mix too heavily from my experience, the engineers are more hands-on code wise while ML are more data sciencey (and there are ofc positions that combine both)

[spark zinc]

what about the fact that the passion position (ill call it that now 😄 ) wont really give "relevant" programming experience? like i wont have experinece in coding things that are super specific to industry, but rather just coding complicated algorithms in general. will they see it as a useless side project or valuable coding experience?

[vapid jay]

man

are you saying that it's better to pick ML or SE and go for one basically?

[graceful mason]

No, I'm saying that if he wants a job specifically in software engineering then software engineering experience could be more valuable than machine learning

[graceful mason]

Not every job will expect you to know exactly how their industry works, especially as a graduate. Being able to prove that you can both solve complicated logic/math problems and code algorithms to solve them would hopefully tell them that you can pick up their specific work

[spark zinc]

i see.

[sudden quartz]

@spark zinc A useless side project would be making an expert system in prolog. You're literally coding in C++ here. No employee would see it as useless when it demonstrates syntactical proficiency in a language used in production and industry

[spark zinc]

I’m listening I’m listening

[sudden quartz]

At a complex degree at that, im assuming as its a research position

[humble kelp]

My situation at a FAANG company currently.

[peak halo]

what are you gonna do about it

[humble kelp]

crying and throwing up, pulling out my hair, spitting up blood, punching and kicking the air.

But honestly, it's an internship and I have a full time offer lined up after the internship ends.

[spark zinc]

if i was equally passionate about each position, which one would u suggest for job prospects?

[sudden quartz]

The second seems to offer controls + ML. That would give you the best prospects simply because youre able to name drop and get experience with more technologies seemingly to people who dont know any better.
I would rank them: 2 > 1 > 3 in terms of rote career prospects. The two ML positions take priority over controls, I dont even know what controls is tbh, while ML experience as an undergrad will save you a lot of time and money since you typically need grad school for that.

[past gull]

Hey guys
Help me choose an option that would be good for my friend ( Diploma in B.Com , Degree in Compt. Applications, Web developer, GFX 3D Designer)

1.Account Manager $200 p/mo

2.Web developer (WFH) $1,308 p/mo

3.Busieness Associate 357.00 Euro p/mo

4.HTML Worker ( part time ) 500 Euro p/mo

5.UX designer $450p/moth

6.Animator (Not WFH) $700p/month

The are the packages that he is offered...

@sudden quartz Please give me your opinion

[summer roost]

there's not a lot to go on there - we can do the conversions and see which one pays the best, but pay isn't everything. What does your friend enjoy? What are their long term career goals?

[serene kindle]

2.Web developer (WFH) $1,308 p/mo the ultimate

it even pays double everything else, it seems the obvious choice

[past gull]

12 Hours daily work

[serene kindle]

doesn't matter ultimate choice

its like 10x better the other choices

[summer roost]

it does, but that's also quite low pay for someone with a degree working in the US. That's <$16k/year, which is well below the US poverty line.

[brittle thorn]

I will say it depends some do trade off pay for work life balance

[serene kindle]

in the long term, they could get $200k/year for that prior experience of web dev despite not being paid for it now, whereas the other choices would lead to permanent career rut

though if the html worker part time is like 2 hours/day and pays expenses i guess it would work

[brittle thorn]

If your friend enjoys web dev then go for it...even with the hours and deadlines

[past gull]

I know..

[serene kindle]

12 hours a day wfh is pretty good i think. my friend who got a normal 8 hour a day wfh ended up spending every single day spending extra 4 hours coding anyway

[past gull]

Oh

[serene kindle]

he had such a mass of time from wfh that he spent it on 12h/day coding, so... it doesn't seem bad imo

[summer roost]

It seems extremely unlikely to me that prior experience at a $16k programming job will help you get a $200k programming job. If anything, I'd think taking a job doing ostensibly skilled labor at well under the US poverty line would hurt your future career prospects more than help.

[past gull]

Okay, Let me just wait for others to answer

He is just here for some time then he may shift to Las vegas..

Lets wait

[serene kindle]

maybe the html worker is good because it is part time so in a sense it could be really high pay per hour

[summer roost]

depending on where these jobs are, you'd also need to consider cost of living as well as tax rates, even if money is the only factor you're using to compare.

[past gull]

Weekly once..

[serene kindle]

wow its the ultimate

[past gull]

Even if he ends up taking the job he will make it a drag..

[serene kindle]

a drag?

[past gull]

A waste, He's just been diploma in all his hobbies

I told him to become a private sector stockbroker

He can earn better and it's something he knows

[summer roost]

Salaries in the US tend to be higher than Europe, and tax rates lower, but social safety nets are weaker, which would be particularly concerning when considering accepting a job below the poverty line - you'd be more likely to need social welfare programs than someone making more money, and they'd be less accessible to you than they'd likely be in Europe.

[past gull]

See it's twisted like hell

[vapid jay]

can i ask something

[past gull]

We don't know which package to take

[summer roost]

honestly, if the job getting 1308 USD/month is in the US and the job getting 500 EUR/month is in eastern Europe, your quality of life would likely be much better in the Europe job than the US job.

[past gull]

Well in certain places like London the packages offer Homespace too (rented with discount)..

[summer roost]

$1308 USD/month wouldn't cover rent in many places. Average rent in Las Vegas is over $1400 USD/month according to Google.

[vapid jay]

What programming language do you recommend to me if I'm going to pursue astrophysics? I'm currently a freshman and I'm really new to programming

[past gull]

Yes

[past gull]

Python would be great and if you are planning to join some damn-big research center you need to do things physically..

[vapid jay]

Okay, Thank you so much

[past gull]

Whats your age @vapid jay

[summer roost]

If the web developer job is 12 hours per day and pays $1308 per month, assuming 5 days per week, that's $5.03 per hour - that's way below the US minimum wage. It would be illegal for an employer to pay you that little for that many hours.

[vapid jay]

sorry timer I'm 18

[summer roost]

Python is a great first programming language.

[past gull]

Well I would reccomend join a job after 2 years when you become 20 ...experience is more important than money..

[summer roost]

long term, something like C++ might be more useful. But you'll have an easier time learning C++ if you learn Python first.

[vapid jay]

Thank you guys

[past gull]

C or C++ right now..

Python is something different than what you think for IDL

[brittle thorn]

As many things are in life sadly

[past gull]

Welcome 🙂