career-advice

[vapid jay]

is javascript intresting to learn python.

[buoyant seal]

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
BrainException: failed to comprehend the sentence

[urban matrix]

anyone here that uses python for biology stuff?

[dense mesa]

My full time role will be product management but I haven't started yet

[inner badge]

yeah but no one gives a damn

[vast shoal]

Yes, we do. Don't post off-topic content in on-topic channels.

[vapid jay]

It's ok until it disturbs any person in general

[vast shoal]

You're free to your opinion, but on this server we require that channels stay on topic.

!rule 7

[inner wren]

Rules

7. Keep discussions relevant to the channel topic. Each channel's description tells you the topic.

[vapid jay]

Guys about my GCSE option surrounding CS

There is an after-school statistic GCSE which I think it would be helpful for Neural networks and deep learning (which is what I'm getting into)

I'm thinking if I should take the course over business (I'm already taking CS, extra language and triple science)

Stats is after school and 100 pounds a month I think, what are your thoughts on taking statistics course

[vast shoal]

I'm not into ML and DS, but it seems like improving your stats knowledge can't possibly hurt if you're going that route.

[vapid jay]

Because I'm seriously considering it, I want to work in CS when I'm older whether it's software development or AI and DS

It's more positive all round defo

The school is running after school GCSEs (child development, ancient history, film studies, BTEC dance and stats

Yeah I know but on a CV I'll be a lot more qualified in the eyes of whoever is hiring me or the people who choose whether I get into a good university like cambridge or nottingham

In my school we do AQA curriculum, we must do a MFL between spanish, german and french, maths, english and 3 others of our choice (after school GCSEs go into that catagory) and I'm taking russian as extra because I'm fluent in it so it's an easy addition to the CV, passing spanish as well means I'll have officially an extra 2 languages in my CV which is very cool

Not sure how A-levels work yet, but I want to do maths and CS

[gilded valley]

Having a solid understanding of statistics is a very valuable life skill. I don't know about the GCSE spec specifically, and I assume how useful it is is also tied to the teachers, but if you're interested in doing it, then I'd just suggest doing it

[vapid jay]

I'll talk with parents to see if they will pay the money and let me do the after school hours

[vast shoal]

If you get your parents to pay for it, I don't see why you shouldn't do it.

[gilded valley]

if the money is an issue - I wouldn't push it with them. It likely won't be mean a huge difference in your life post-school life

[vapid jay]

3:05 pm to 4pm on the stat lesson days

[vast shoal]

Yeah, I mean, assuming you're not gonna starve.

[vapid jay]

They can afford it but the question is are they willing to pay for it

[gilded valley]

that's a tl;dr of how your school did A-Levels. Not of A-levels as a whole.

[vapid jay]

My dad probably is willing since he knows how important maths is for CS and would like me to take more maths based GCSEs

[gilded valley]

of course it would - a stats GCSE would touch on statistical distributions which aren't covered at all in GCSE iirc.

[vapid jay]

I think it does cover stuff that there isn't in a normal A-level maths class, there wouldn't be a seperate GCSE then

[gilded valley]

stats isn't a required module at A-level either

[vapid jay]

Oh so the education in 6th form is literally what is getting me to uni

I think I will just check with teachers and ask parents

[gilded valley]

literally wasn't like that for my school. At my school you choose 3 in Y1, don't sit AS, and just sit A-Levels at end of Y2*. Friends at a better sixth form just sat 4 a levels. This would have been 5/6 years ago as well

England

BTECs are super weird, they no longer really exist, I'm not sure what the modern equivalent to them is but it's not that different I don't think. But in terms of UCAS points they can be worth 1,2, or 3 A-Levels iirc. I did some super janky Cambridge Technical IT thing which was weighted the same as an A-Level in raw UCAS points (but most good unis required 3 A-levels and just ignored anything else)

[gilded valley]

(they do still exist - the marketing of them is just changed a bit)

Merit = C, not B

[vapid jay]

Hey guys and gals

[trim meteor]

Huh

[vapid jay]

I have a question. What kind of job should I be leaning towards if I have an IT background and I’m just starting to learn python? I’m getting back into the work field after 7 years and I feel like I have a lot to catch up on. I want to land a job where I can take care of my disabled child and give her a better quality of life. So getting a position that can pay me enough is important. What company’s or places should apply to? Can someone point me in the right direction? I went to barns same noble and started reading books and I’ve been watching YouTube. I just don’t know what is best for me and I do not want to waste anymore time.

[obsidian acorn]

@vapid jay you don't want to remain within the IT field? Maybe you can consider devops? devops is really in high demand currently, and pays well as well.

[vapid jay]

Whatever technical is fine with me. Whatever I need to do to keep up with the times

I’ll look into devops now

[vast shoal]

If not, web devs tend to be in high demand. https://www.theodinproject.com/ is pretty good for mapping out what skills you need to acquire to become employable.

@vapid jay

[vast shoal]

What is your IT background?

[vapid jay]

@dense plinth both my parents support my decision on it

A bigger issue was walking home in the dark at 4pm for 3 miles but they got over that quick

easier then I thought 😎

[vast shoal]

It's unintuitive for me to think about walking in the dark as a problem, because here in Sweden it's simultaneously very safe and also pitch black freaking all the time.

[vapid jay]

What kind of background? your question depends on that

[vapid jay]

Well I live in england, say anything negative about someone and you get stabbed

or interact with anyone

[quick rapids]

<@&831776746206265384>

[lusty lotus]

hey!

i was wondering what kind of discussions people have in this section

but this earlier conversation was rather scary

[kind oar]

curious since you're swedish, I have this client who's swedish but she has a VERY posh accent, is this normal in sweden? I always thought you people would sound closer to germans or something.

so either that's normal or she spent a while in england.

[vast shoal]

No, it's not super common, but there's a bit of a meme of pretentious people thinking they can speak with a native UK accent

[honest pivot]

I've never heard a Swedish person with a posh British accent

But they definitely don't sound close to German to me. There's definitely a Scandinavian accent.

[vast shoal]

Our true accent doesn't sound German either, yeah

I think it's just its own thing

[kind oar]

yeah that's what I thought, she must be from a rich background where she spent long time in boarding schools in UK or rich people school.

and I meant you sound like how germans sound when they speak english, not actual german language.

[honest pivot]

I know what you mean, I'm talking about accents of English. There is a Swedish accent, it's similar to the Norwegian one, but very different from the German one.

[vast shoal]

This guy speaks good English with a natural Swedish accent and he gives some examples of more exaggerated accents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T7kvXuytIs&ab_channel=SayItInSwedish

[vast shoal]

No, I understood what you mean, and it's not true, we don't sound like Germans speaking English.

[kind oar]

but yeah that answers my question on her being rich.
when she knew i'm from egypt she said "Oh I was in egypt last week for my mom's birthday"

I was like who the fuck have birthday parties in a while different country.

[honest pivot]

Oof

[kind oar]

but yeah pewdiepie forgot that guy, an ex used to watch him a lot

[vast shoal]

It's not a pewdiepie video

He's just on the thumbnail because he's a famous swede

It's a video about the Swedish accent

Anyway, let's not go too far off-topic

[kind oar]

yeah

[vast shoal]

We can continue in ot if you like

[kind oar]

#ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[neon forge]

Do you guys think AI is a good path? I am kind of hesitating recently, especially after finding out that my country isn't really paying programmers a good wage compared to neighboring countries

[vast shoal]

AI as in DS/ML can pay well, but it's a good idea to go to uni and study it, even more so than other fields of software development. If your country doesn't pay well, you could consider migrating to one that does once you've acquired employable skills.

[neon forge]

I see, yeah I am planning to go to uni to get a CS degree. For migrating though, It's pretty complicated but I may hopefully able to in the future. Wish me luck

[vast shoal]

Good luck

[dire reef]

how many arguments are passed to the function?

guys help plz with it

[dapper depot]

this doesn't belong in this channel
see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[dire reef]

oh im sry

[ripe pagoda]

How smart do you need to be for data science and machine learning?

[vapid jay]

I need friends who can help to grow the server like this we are forming student community
Dm if anyone help

[kind oar]

agree with this @neon forge

but if you're most interested in DS then I suggest you go into Stats/Math instead of pure CS, or at least go VERY heavy on math if you go CS path so you can get masters in math/stats and PhD if needed.

[vapid jay]

[kind oar]

https://github.com/NathanDuma/LinkedIn-Easy-Apply-Bot

I've been thinking about using it to spam instead of wasting my time.

what's your delay for that?

[dapper depot]

!rule 6
and please respect channel topics

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[gritty rivet]

Your IQ should be at least 140. Just kidding... It's not really about being smart, it's about motivation and persistence.

[obtuse ridge]

What's everyone's opinions on the entry level PCAP? Is it worth the 60 dollars?

[ivory sluice]

@tall tapirwe don't allow advertising. see #rules

[tall tapir]

Ok got it will take care from next time

[dapper depot]

!rule 6
@dusty sentinel

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[sharp thunder]

Hi guys, would it be wise to take a job for application support engineer if I’m trying to go into Devops? I saw online that it has tasks to do with coding I believe but feel like this job would be like a help desk 2.0 position

[smoky quest]

Depends where you are at.
Do you already have a job? Do you have a degree?

[sharp thunder]

I already have a job as a system admin here at northern Virginia and have a bachelors degree

[ivory sapphire]

I'm starting to learn python, do you guys have any tips for me??

[near ocean]

Yes, ask in the relevant channel and maybe dont have a username with swears in it

[eager mason]

Hello I am new to Discord, and want to learn python. My name username doesn't have swear words in it if that helps? 🙂 my background is powershell. may I be pointed in the right direction to one day grow up and be like yall?

[thick juniper]

Hey all. I haven't checked in in almost two weeks.

I have a technical interview sometime next week (exact day hasn't yet been set) and my technical assessment this weekend through codility.

The assessment will be three question increasing in difficulty over 90 minutes. I tried my first practice question, an "easy" one, and while I did get 100% on it, it took me about 40 minutes. I have two questions:

1. Besides just doing a lot of practice (which I plan to), are there any tips which might help in these types of assessments?

2. How clearly should I explain my thinking or process at certain points? For example, should I note when I went to search StackOverflow? Should I explain why I did X instead of a possible Y?

Thanks all.

[kind oar]

congrats on that, was it the same company for the new python dev thing?

I can't help you with questions, but generally, before you do anything, think of how you will solve that question, what steps you should be taking and so on.
and don't just stand doing nothing while thinking about your questions, just do another part of the question while thinking about the hard part, this is for better time management.

[thick juniper]

Thanks. Super nervous. It's with the same company for the new Python opening, yes.

I just did another practice assessment and I finished it in 27 minutes and scored 100%, but the problem is both of those "100%"s were after I scored much lower on my first submit. They give me "tests" against which I can try my code, but in the final assessment they present further edge cases, and those always trip me up.

I am not very good at anticipating edge cases. So far, I code by finding a solution to the immediate problem and then using it until it breaks and then fixing that breakage and using it until it breaks again. Obviously that's not ideal for an assessment like this (or probably the job itself -- I don't blame them for testing this, just nervous that they are).

[kind oar]

Nice man! told you they like you.

just do more at harder difficulties for nervousness, I don't know about tech recruitment, but I don't think they expect you to be amazing at coding.

try to take a few minutes at the start to think about how you should code this, might help you stay organized.

[sage knot]

odd question, maybe asked a lot tho, where or what should i look at for a job while working toward a bachlors in CS?

ive been a ta/tutor at a college for almost 3 yrs in python, java and c++, buuut, dont even have an associate degree yet.. can i even get a job somewhere lol? ik experience > alot of things, but how is it REALLY out in the job market ?

do things exist for limited experience? whats it like?

[graceful mason]

<@&831776746206265384>

[tender frost]

!ban 754324646496698368 troll

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @thick hollow permanently.

[kind oar]

why not look for an internship or a part time job in a field that interests you?

[sage knot]

slowly am, just more wondering what type of internships there are with little experience, and what do they generally do?

[kind oar]

I mean that's what internships are for, to take in people who don't have experience lol.

and again it depends on the field and the internship, just look up on linkedin for those in your country.

if you do well in it you might get another internship or a fulltime offer once you graduate.

and if they need people of course.

[dense mesa]

Congratulations!!! One thing I've seen in product is to research the company and its competitors, then ask questions so you can bring up your research, and how you'd help out if offered a role

It sounds cheesy but could work in your favour provided the other parts go well. Also, be personable with the interviewer. The best interviews I've had are where I could share in a common pain they face and discuss it in more detail

[neon forge]

Jesus, I don't think I'm going to pursue data science. I can't afford masters and math isn't my forte

[kind oar]

well, for lower levels stuff you don't need much math, but the higher level DS things math will greatly help

[neon forge]

Hmmm, I see. Is there anymore job on AI? I know AI needs more effort than usual but damn masters in math..

[thick juniper]

About "shar[ing] in a common pain", do you think it would do me any harm in mentioning my difficulty with edge-cases? The way I imagine it (it never works the way one images it) they ask me how I think I did on the assessment, and I respond, 'fine but not ace, because...'

I'm thinking since it is a weakness, and one they'll likely find from their assessment, I lose nothing in mentioning it outright. At worst, it doesn't come up in the assessment and they think I'm being humble. At best, it is an area of weakness they've noticed and they give me points for noticing it as well.

[thick juniper]

Thanks, by the way.

What kinds of areas should I be researching? I know that sounds somewhat stupid, but I've never worked for a company that provided products, just services, and I'm worried the field of questions and inquiries might be rather different.

[gritty rivet]

You never really want to present something as a weakness in an interview... You can always convey the same information by explaining how you have worked or at least are working to overcome challenges

Anticipating edge cases is difficult, almost by definition, and the only solution is practice and experience. Stop and think them through as often as you can. As you work through a problem, always think about the tests you need at the same time. These problems usually give you the explicit parameters of the inputs and you can use that as a guide to come up with tests for your edge cases

[smoky quest]

math or CS

[neon forge]

CS ofc, I am average if not below average at math

[kind oar]

you still need some math in CS, and since you are young enough to still have the choice of degrees, I suggest you work hard into getting better at math and not accepting that "I'm not good at math!"

plenty of sources online, google topics you dont understand till you do.

[neon forge]

I never said I suck at math, I am capable of doing some math, but I got lost somewhere a few years ago and I don't really know what to do since I don't even know where did I get lost. Math isn't really a subject that you can learn a branch of it independently and that is making some hard time for me

[kind oar]

then start learning, I'm in a similar situation, I have to relearn a lot of the math since it have been like a decade since I last used math, and I have to start all over since I need to learn it in English.

it sucks, and I don't want to do it honestly, but that's life.

while you don't need to be amazing in math for CS, but it will be VERY beneficial to you.

[neon forge]

How did you do that? I don't even know where to start ;-;

[kind oar]

take it one step at a time, start all over, do like 10 hours each week, and by the time you're ready to start math in your CS undergrad you will be up to level with your classmates.

[kind oar]

I didn't start yet since I have other work to do first, but I plan on trying different sources like khan academy and whatever my research points me to.

[neon forge]

I was thinking to learn college math from freecodecamp but ngl I am kinda scared that I don't understand and end up giving up

[kind oar]

idk much about freecodecamp, but I'm gonna need to start all over lol, so college is too ahead for me.

At one point in everyone's live, they just face the fact that not everything will run smoothly and they would have to do things that they don't like, things that suck or boring or scary, but it will have to be done.

so the sooner you throw yourself into the pool, the better.

and it isn't really about math, at your age (I'm assuming somewhere in your teens), you probably haven't yet been exposed to a lot of things, most of your life is probably people telling you what to do.
like, eat this, wear this, go to school, do this homework, do this exam, and so on.

but once you're on your own, no one will you anything, no one will be really holding your hand much, in most of it you're on your own, you could literally starve to death if you want lol.

so take it as small steps, take the initiative now, start doing things that you don't feel like doing, and overtime, the feeling of "ugh I don't want to do this", will be easier to deal with.

[sudden quartz]

You dont need a masters degree to do data science. (CS/Stats/Math) But you should aim to perform well enough to get one so that doesnt matter. If you dont like math i question why are you going into AI to begin with

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't obsess that much over the math

[neon forge]

Good question

It was simply process of elimination and 4 days of dilemma

[ripe pagoda]

Is it too ambitious to go a machine learning boot camp if all I’ve done is automation scripts?

[neon forge]

nothing is too ambitious as long you can survive it and actually understand it. Also arent bootcamps are meant for people that aren't experienced in it anyway?

[neon forge]

start over from where? We don't need to learn multiplication, division and those other stuff, Wouldn't it be a waste not to pinpoint where you get lost and continue from there?

[ripe pagoda]

I’m very intimidated by the matrix calculus. I feel like it would take years to understand and have a feel for the operations taking place

But maybe a full understanding is not needed? Can anyone weigh in before I start dming on LinkedIn

[vapid jay]

It's not as difficult as it seems you just need practice

[sudden quartz]

Not a machine learning bootcamp. Its probably suited to people like you. I dont recommend it though. I think machine learning is a statistics discipline for big data, and a tool of data analysis. Its still easier than software development, but not if you have done no statistics or calculus whatsoever

[kind oar]

oh I'm talking about myself, and I was good at highschool math, but I will have to relearn all that in English (I learnt it in Arabic).

so while I knew how a lot of math works, I just don't know what they are in English, no names or titles or anything.

[cold mango]

hi

[summer roost]

what's your goal? Machine learning is basically all math, so if you're intimidated by the math, I'm sort of confused why you want to pursue machine learning

!superstar 842428255147261962 1m

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied superstar to @cold mango until <t:1645841022:f> (30 days and 23 hours).

Superstarified!

Your previous nickname, You piece of sh*t, was so bad that we have decided to change it. Your new nickname will be Johnny Hallyday.

You will be unable to change your nickname until <t:1645841022:f>. If you're confused by this, please read our official nickname policy.

[summer roost]

I meant for that to be one minute, not one month. You should be able to change your nickname now. Pick something less rude.

[kind oar]

what's superstar?

[summer roost]

exactly what the embed says. Forced name change.

[kind oar]

oh you're right, i didn't actually read it and went to #roles
that was dumb lol

[kind oar]

btw since you're a hiring manager, do you happen to have any advice for him?

[summer roost]

don't start coding as soon as they describe the problem. Stop and think about it for a minute. Ask questions. Try to figure out the edge cases up front.

[kind oar]

@thick juniper
but I think it is an online thing? not sure how it really works in your field.

[summer roost]

Sounds like they're describing on online thing, yes. But whether online or offline, writing code without thinking about the requirements and what can go wrong isn't a good look.

I'd rather hire someone who can't solve the problem at all than someone who ships stuff that mostly works, but fails in production.

[kind oar]

oh i meant the "ask questions" not sure if they'll be available.
but yeah I told him the same thing, plan stuff before acting.

[summer roost]

yeah, "ask questions" isn't applicable if it's online.

[summer roost]

(though obviously I'd prefer to hire someone who can write a correct solution over both 😆)

[kind oar]

I think they can see his background, and the HR woman liked him and were even offering to put him on codecamp or whatever so that's good for him.

I'd think they're more looking to see how he thinks and if he's trainable than pure "coding exam" if that's even a thing.

[kind oar]

shit man, you almost got my hopes up and now you took it again 😦

[summer roost]

I think your advice was right, though. Stop, think, and plan. If you haven't tried to identify edge cases, you haven't yet understood the problem well enough to start working on a solution.

[kind oar]

yeah that's how I go about standardized exams anyways.

wait sorry if this is too stupid, but I googled that

but how do you know what the edge cases are? do they tell you? feels way open ended

[summer roost]

they're cases where there's valid input that's "different" than other inputs, and might require different handling. If you're trying to look for elements in a list, what happens if the list is empty? If you're performing math on some number, what happens if it's 0, or negative?

if you're searching for something in a list, what happens if there's duplicates?

[kind oar]

ah yeah makes sense, so input controls, like making sure they only input valid stuff

thanks a lot!

[summer roost]

or figuring out how to handle it if they don't, yeah. Does your algorithm for finding prime numbers correctly say that anything <= 1 is not prime, for instance.

[thick juniper]

Should I include comments about what I was thinking in a given instance? Is there any chance I'll have to explain the code itself? (Given that they give you parameters and given that one has limited time, I imagine not. But better to know than imagine.)

[summer roost]

I couldn't say; that depends on their particular setup.

[kind oar]

yup makes sense, so error handling and stuff like that
thanks a lot!

[summer roost]

It wouldn't hurt to throw in a comment explaining a choice that might seem unusual, though, if you have time.

Something like "This is a naive recursive solution to favor readability over performance" - or vice versa, "This is more complex than the naive recursive solution, but performs much better"

[thick juniper]

Thanks!

[open jasper]

Heyya

[summer roost]

then you shouldn't ask here, because this channel is for discussing jobs and careers.

See #❓｜how-to-get-help

[coral viper]

I am looking for Python Website and application Jobs with Django, Flask, Fast API

sure

I am senior developer, but I am not interested in Freelancing.

I would like to work with remoting salary job

I am looking for python website job with Django, Flast, Fast API

[gritty rivet]

You're not allowed to ask for paid work on this site, but as Aurimus is suggesting, check LinkedIn, Indeed and all of that

[near ocean]

how senior are you talking, also youre probablydefinitely not going to find anything worthwhile on discord

as a senior dev you shouldnt be struggling to find work, all (around 70% of posts) i see on linkedin nowadays are for senior devs

[coral viper]

okay, I am not senior developer, I know about python a little.

I am looking for python web site job with Django, Flask, Fast API

I think I am allowed to ask about job I can work with. @gritty rivet

[near ocean]

so are you a senior dev or not, how much experience do you actually have, with python and with other langs/tech

there's no point in lying to us here or in hiding information, youre just gonna get inaccurate/bad advice

[coral viper]

There are many senior develops in this cannel.
So I would like to say that I am a senior developer, but I dont know if I am a senior developer.
I have only 5+ experiences with Django, Flask, Fast API.

[near ocean]

5+ what, days, weeks, months, years?
i feel like a senior dev would know whether theyre senior

[coral viper]

sorry, years

[tawny oar]

ohh cool, what kind of product will u handle mate?

[near ocean]

do you have a CV?

[coral viper]

yes

[near ocean]

so, off to linkedin and relevant job boards and start applying

[coral viper]

Thank you for your advice

[vast shoal]

You can ask for advice about your career here, but you can't ask for a job.

[dense mesa]

Anything that the client needs to produce to grow their digital presence :)

[near ocean]

what does >job in daffodils mean

[vapid jay]

Guys

what do and in general what is init or something how start with __ __ and end with__ __

[swift veldt]

This is not the channel to ask this question, I believe.

[vast shoal]

This is a channel for discussions of Python careers and the world of work, not general Python help. Please ask in #python-discussion, or check out #❓｜how-to-get-help.

[sinful lichen]

Hello , any AWS cloud engineer here ?

[gritty rivet]

Don't ask to ask, just ask

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384> advertising

[vast shoal]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[coral viper]

/tendor

[coral viper]

Thank you for your advice

[timid knoll]

English>python u freaks

[obsidian zenith]

I disagree

[inner wren]

Off-topic channel: #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[obtuse ivy]

but is english an extension of ctypes

[vapid jay]

I just completely screwed up my interview with a FAANG 😦

[near ocean]

unlucky, at least theres 4 more of them to try out

[vapid jay]

Well I can always apply to the same company in a different place lol

[vapid jay]

it was more me being stupid, i completely blanked and couldn't answer basic questions

[kind oar]

it is okay, if it is an entry level job they might overlook that, they know you don't have much experience with interviews and you get nervous.

you should have changed your legal name to have your GPA like you did here 😛

[dense mesa]

One of the best messages I've seen on discord

[graceful mason]

when is FAANG getting renamed to MANGA

[vapid jay]

Should I say "negotiable" in the salary requirements question

[vapid jay]

#python-discussion

[native quail]

Hi guys, i'm applying for a intershinp in a company that i really want to work, they required a test that analyzes electrical energy consumption. Could anyone give a feedback on what i've come up with, please?

[kind oar]

maybe try #data-science-and-ml
but most likely reddit would be a better place

[honest pivot]

So it should be MAAAN

[vapid jay]

My concern is if i go too high they won't even call me b ack, if they call too low well ill end up with a low salary 😦

[kind oar]

you're an entry level guy, I suggest you keep your mouth shut and take what you can get for market rate.

most companies, especially bigger ones, have a set budget for each level that they don't deviate from unless you're REALLY special.

if you're american, I read that in california they have to provide you their budget after the interview and can't ask you for your salary, so check your local laws.

[vapid jay]

😦 ok DaddyM

[gritty rivet]

I always, always insist the employer to give a range first before I throw any numbers out there. The law requires this in a growing number of places. If they refuse to give a range, I'm not interested, but I guess you could check Glassdoor etc. and negotiate from there.

[kind oar]

once you get higher up and more experience you can have some wiggle room, but as an entry level, just take what you can get for experience then start looking in a year or so.

[gritty rivet]

This is also very true

[kind oar]

but obviously, if they're gonna pay you amount that is way lower than market rate, and you wouldn't be able to cover your financial commitments with it then just say no thanks and go work in a warehouse or something till a better opportunity comes up.

[smoky quest]

And have multiple offers and companies in the pipeline.

[vapid jay]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone knew some good jobs to do related to computing. I originally wanted to be a data scientist but I changed my mind to a software developer which I know is quite a broad term. Maybe developing apps or working on systems? Can someone give me some recommends and I will look into it

[rustic badge]

what have you researched on your own so far?

[vapid jay]

idk

systems administrator sounds interesting but i want a bit of programming too

[smoky quest]

What's a good job for you?

[vapid jay]

idk that's why I'm asking for recommendations

so I can see if it's interesting and stuff

Hlw

[gritty rivet]

You might look through the various paths on https://roadmap.sh/

Beyond that, just study the job listings and get to know what's out there

[vapid jay]

Already have

Doesn't really help

[dense mesa]

Do you have a specific question in mind? It's hard to give a good response if you don't know what you're looking for yourself

[vapid jay]

what jobs are there

[dense mesa]

This is starting to sound like an XY problem. Why do you want to know what jobs there are? What is your end goal? If you are at some point A, and you know you want to get to point B, what advice do you need?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_whys

Think of what you want to do/achieve, ask yourself why 5 times, then see if you can reformulate the request for advice

[ivory sluice]

it's hard to know what to ask when you don't know what you want. maybe those with SWE jobs can share experiences of what kind of person excels or doesn't excel in their specific role?

[smoky quest]

A good job for you may look very differently from a good job for me.
You need to figure out what you want in life and want to prioritize

[glacial plinth]

Hey I'm a Beginner in Python I'm looking for a partner to discuss and learn with if anyone is interested DM me, We can learn together wink

[tepid summit]

I'm completely new to python, I would like to learn it.

[thick juniper]

Oooo... I like this. I've had thoughts in that neighborhood but never expressed them like that. Thank you!

[dense mesa]

5 whys and fishbone analysis is the life of an engineer 😎

Oh yeah I didn't respond to your 2 pinged messages, did you still want any suggestions?

[glacial plinth]

Alright,Sorry for inconvenience

[thick juniper]

Absolutely, if you care to.

[dense mesa]

For sure :) I'm about to sleep but if there's anything that didn't get answered from the initial questions, if you post some questions again I can look morning UK time

Full disclaimer that I've never had a full-time SWE job, just have learned some stuff from a few part time roles that had technical aspects

[gritty rivet]

Finally got my first SWE job offer today! I appreciate all the inspiration and advice I've had from this community in recent months 😎

[summer roost]

nice!

[thick juniper]

Wonderful! Congrats!

[quasi glacier]

Yes, same with me I also had learn maths in my regional language but now I have to revise it and learn new stuff in English which is hard

[buoyant seal]

Congratulations 😉

[thick juniper]

Let's just start with, 1. Do you have a good resource for the Fishbone Mehod? I can (and indeed did) google it, but you might have a better resource than one I drubbed up in five minutes.

And, 2. Do you have any recommendations for where or how to research the company's products and competitors? Obviously there's the website itself and news articles, but in law and elsewhere I had dedicated research tools, even for other lawyers. I'm not sure there's anything like that in tech.

Thanks

[true harness]

it tells you right there why it failed. also, this isn't the channel for this, see #python-discussion

[graceful mason]

You might have better luck googling Ishikawa Diagrams

[astral ermine]

Came out of my masters and find myself using more VBA than Python at work

[unreal hearth]

Hey, im someone whos weak at math and lack problem solving skills, but would still like to pursue college. I thought that switchijg from CS to IT would be more beneficial to me despite CS being more prominent since I would prefer to be in the front-end rather than the back. Would considering switchijg my major to IT be a lot more better in my situation?

[astral ermine]

@unreal hearth Are you currently enrolled in a CS program?

[unreal hearth]

Yes

[unreal hearth]

Still in my second semester as a freshman, and rn focusing more on gen eds, so im really not gonna lose anything if i attempt to switch now

[smoky quest]

I don't see any reason to switch to IT with that data.
Math and problem solving skills are things you can work on. If you have tried for years to improve them using different approaches and methodologies, then maybe.

[unreal hearth]

I'm a lot more interested in web development

[smoky quest]

that's closer to CS than IT

Also before making such large decision based on webdev, I would recommend to double check the other areas to make sure you aren't missing on anything else. But in any case, webdev is closer to CS than IT anyway

[kind oar]

Any American hiring managers?
I'm thinking about starting an LLC and looking for temp contracts, but wondering if companies actually do this instead of W2.

[obsidian acorn]

yes, a lot of companies do c2c or b2b instead of w2. and depending on the company, you may get a higher rate offered if you are not on w2.
You may want to look for vendor companies, like virtusa, InsightGlobal, and so on.

@kind oar

[kind oar]

Thanks, yeah but what are those c2c contracts called?

I thought it would be like staffing and temp agencies, I contacted a few in my field (accounting and finance, like robert half) and they just ignored me (even though they are the ones who literally spammed me with their scripts on linkedin lol).
I understand that it's because I'm not a resident, but seems weird since my target are remote and temp jobs so I don't care about visa requirements.

What is this called? 1099 MISC? and yeah it is certainly cheaper for companies since they don't have any obligations and can deduct the full amount in tax.

[obsidian acorn]

@kind oar unfortunately, most tech companies usually work with Indians and other people who already have some type of work visa requirement already met. The question about visa is usually in terms of maintaining it, not really helping you get it to begin with, Unless you are from Canada or Mexico, where the North American Trade agreement may help.
So, if you don't already have a work visa for the US, most contracting companies will still not want to work with you, because it takes a lot of work to prove that the quality of work/contract they are looking for can not be provided from the US.

[kind oar]

yeah that is the thing, I don't want sponsorship, I just want a remote contract.
like for example, someone from your team going on maternity leave for 3 months and you want someone to take their place in the mean time.

that's why I'm mainly aiming for remote contracts and not full time permanent stuff.

but what I'm not sure about is if in the field of tech they actually use those, it is somewhat common in finance but not sure about tech (looking for junior data analyst/BI stuff)

the thing I find weird is that a lot of the extrenal recruiters that inmail me on linkedin seem to be indian, like actual indians (graduating highschool and colleges in india, I even saw one who graduated from mumbai in 2021).

so I think those are in a similar situation like mine? just remote contractor stuff?

[obsidian acorn]

Ah, I see what you mean. Possibly, yeah, but you are on the right track, those companies that hire you, what you may want to do is go through the interview process, get the position, once you have an offer, then coordinate your c2c with the company.

On the other hand, I could be wrong on that end, but most of the contracting companies I have worked with only work with mid/senior and above. Because most companies hiring contractors don't want to spend a lot of money on training them, they want people who can join, and start contributing within a week or two, rather than in 3 to 4 weeks for FTE.

[kind oar]

oh yeah I'm somewhat of an experienced candidate (in my field, Senior financial analyst, so I'm pretty much hitting the ground running), but I don't mind doing lower level stuff just to cast a wider net, I kind of need a bit of money so I'd even take a freaking bookkeeper jobs (even those pay more than local jobs here).

so I'm currently using linkedin, filtering for contract/non full time jobs, but I'm thinking of telling the hiring manager after the interview right away that I'm looking to do it through my LLC.

I feel like I probably should tell them I'm not American, but also feel like it will not be relevant (my english is good enough to get by with), what do you think?

[dense mesa]

1. My process for anything new is usually Google, read the formal articles such as Wikipedia, then informal blog posts, then watch YouTube videos of someone explaining it. For fishbone specifically, any engineering/consulting/management website should be fine. It's essentially just a way of dissecting your problem into mutually exclusive but collectively exhaustive factors (look up MECE as well).

2. There's websites that have dedicated market information and stuff, but they're either paid or require an academic license. If your typical searches for information are not giving good info, I would try searching company name .pdf and see if any documentation can be found without having to dig for it

[obsidian acorn]

@kind oar from what I have seen, mostly after you have an offer is the best way to do it because they are less likely to turn you down at that point. Anytime before that, they can shot you down for another candidate.

[kind oar]

Yeah that's what I'm worried about, in one hand it will only be used against me, and on the other I feel like it is kind of unethical/misleading to not mention that I'm not American lol.

I guess the accent and not so good English would give it away anyways.

Thank you my tea friend!

[dense mesa]

@thick juniper https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_hacking

What I have done before (this is completely legal and within ToS for these websites before anyone gets funny) is try to find open FTP servers that have company reports and stuff

If you search with some good keywords, you can find stuff that people have uploaded to their open FTP servers and dig further

[obsidian acorn]

Oh, let me clarify, for the American part, right from the start, they will ask you about your visa/citizenship status during the recruitment phase before the interviews. They usually don't tend to skip that one, but it happens every once in a while.
on the C2C part is where I would say to wait till you are offered a position, then seek contract instead of W2. On the C2C part, it is not unethical to do it after you get an offer, because that is also usually where the company will counter the requested rate, and/or you can counter the offered rate as well. So, you can't really negotiate a pay that you have not been offered yet.

[kind oar]

Yeah the "will you require visa sponsorship in the future?"
I usually just mark no since they're remote temp contracts.

but my answer is certainly misleading lol.

[hearty island]

i wish i had premium to talk to these ppl

nxp semiconductors is one of the biggest companies in austin according to linkedin

oh shit, i can talk to them directly

[crude folio]

Got a final interview for a python engineer role in an hour
Any last minute tips?

[ivory sluice]

yes, kill it!
have some water, go to the bathroom, pep talk yourself up ☺️ but good luck!

[hearty island]

relax and make sure to smile!! positive body language goes a long way

i’m a little bit worried i won’t get a return offer for my summer internship

[obsidian acorn]

Confidence is key. Believe in what you know, and be up front on what you don’t know, and ask key questions about their team, tech stack, and team expectations, like why they are hiring, and such

[dense mesa]

You can get a free trial for a month

[hearty island]

hm i'll think abt it

[waxen valve]

im 14 and i wanna do aerospace engineering. Do i need python

[weak cobalt]

i'm 14 too

[vast shoal]

I don't know if you're gonna need Python specifically, but a lot of engineering fields make use of some kind of programming nowadays, so it certainly wouldn't be a bad idea to get a head start on basic programming concepts early.

Those general principles are going to be mostly the same if you end up coding in MATLAB instead of Python at uni.

So it's not really a waste of time to study Python.

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[vapid jay]

bruh why? how am i supposed to find top tier devs if i cant look for them in the python dc xD

[vast shoal]

It's unfeasible for us to ensure the quality of the posts and that they are genuine.

[vapid jay]

blablabla. Do you have any tips on what programming languages a nft dev should know?

ok i will do this.

[honest pivot]

Imagine expecting help after being this rude

[vast shoal]

This is a channel for discussion of Python careers and the world of work. If you need general Python help, check out #❓｜how-to-get-help, or ask in #python-discussion .

[vapid jay]

imagine being a small minded person without purpose and vision in life

[vast shoal]

And if you need non-Python help, you can ask in one of the off-topic channels.

[vast shoal]

Be respectful to other users while you're on this server.

[vapid jay]

You are clearly a Karren

[vast shoal]

!mute 406537886046093354 3d I told you to be respectful to other users. Please review our rules and code of conduct before you return, in case you want to continue to have access to the server.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until <t:1643556283:f> (2 days and 23 hours).

[vast shoal]

So anyway

[vapid jay]

it generally depends but a good rule of thumb is to always let yourself get screwed over vs the company lol

[honest pivot]

I would think actively trying to diagnose network issues with connecting to your company VPN counts as work.

My internet has occasionally had problems. Not often, fortunately. But in my job I also do a lot of work on paper, so I can just do other things that are equally valid ways of working.

[vapid jay]

That would make me very nervous if I were you. Can you get another internet connection in your house?

haha well good luck to you, I hope you get it sorted. I have seen people let go just because they couldn't figure out their WFH setup consistently so just make sure you communicate super well and do what you gotta do

[honest pivot]

Every company is different. I logged the hours spent at a company dinner and no-one batted an eye. But I can't guess how your company will feel.

[vapid jay]

for sure, I just imagine it like if you had to commute into work but you always told your boss your car was broken

[honest pivot]

Aside from missing the meetings, is there work you can get done while not having internet? I assume you use git, in which case you'll have a repo checked out locally.

It's also quite likely the ISP will fix the problem quick. I wouldn't worry too much.

(Unless it's actually a problem with the physical lines near your place or something...if it's just a server hiccup, they'll make sure it's not happening anymore, because that costs them money.)

[vapid jay]

meanwhile I'm looking into the possibility of getting a second ISP installed in my home lol in case one of them goes down I can still work

[honest pivot]

If I was expected to have a second ISP in case the first one went down so that I could continue working, I would also expect the company to pay the bill.

[vapid jay]

For sure, I look forward to the point in my career where I'm confident enough to advocate for myself at that level. But I'm more cynical. If a $50 extra bill keeps me safe from losing the $60k job and I don't end up working at Amazon for 30k, it pays for itselfr

I generally just expect the company to 100% look after itself so I'm not putting my future in anyone else's hands

[honest pivot]

It's important to stand up for yourself. Does the company expect this kind of uptime from you, or are you just assuming you have to do this?

Also I think standing up for yourself is not something that you will start doing "eventually, when the time comes". You gotta just start doing it. You'd be amazed how much respect you get from people by simply giving them a firm (but polite) "no".

lol

[vapid jay]

It's more to me, as a remote worker, I want to be 100% reliable. In a world where anyone can just unplug their router and say Comcast is down, I want 100% uptime so I have an edge over employees who miss work due to what I view as avoidable issues(not a dig at you Aurimus)

[honest pivot]

All this for $60k? I'd consider putting forth that kind of effort for $200k.

[vapid jay]

Hey when you've lived off 30k, 60k is life changing

[honest pivot]

And I'd still ask them to pay for the second ISP.

[buoyant seal]

yeah... regular poor people in my country somehow manage to live on just 5k.

[vapid jay]

yeah, in America we are for sure very lucky. I'm a first generation American. In my home country, families of 5 share 1 bedroom apartments together in the city

[buoyant seal]

xD, I live on 25k and I am sort of rich considered in comparison to poverty around
my salary is thrice more than salary of average person

[vapid jay]

it's interesting what you said Aurimus. For me, I need to make 100k a year to live what we would call a modest life in certain locations

so yes the costs of things are crazy, or at least we find a way to spend our money as fast as we get it

[honest pivot]

£25k in London? I don't see how that could even be possible.

[vapid jay]

haha mr Money Bags over here doesn't know what the peasants are living like on the ground level XD

[honest pivot]

No, I do, I'm just shocked anyone is getting away with hiring software devs for that rate in London. I know plenty of people with other jobs are struggling on that.

[kind oar]

why not buy a data plan and connect through phone?

[vapid jay]

maybe bootcampers who just want a foot in the door

[buoyant seal]

good question. I usually use phone internet as backup internet. Every modern smartphone allows sharing internet over USB anyway

[honest pivot]

Yeah, seriously

[kind oar]

idk much about UK, but I do know students make more than 25k in london.

[vapid jay]

that's a super cool job though but yeah, hate when they play with titles like that and dog you

[kind oar]

so you'd rather go to a coffee shop or whatever instead of just buying a bigger data plan?

[honest pivot]

Zoom meetings over 4g are kinda meh. I guess it's ok in an emergency.

[kind oar]

I have a friend in ireland and he gets more than that, he is an accountant.
so I'd think london is way more higher pay.

he's still in school though

[honest pivot]

Very few people in London actually make enough to live there, this is what most of the world is like now.

[kind oar]

but I always thought software people pay more than accounting

[honest pivot]

The UK is notoriously bad on salaries.

[kind oar]

it is relative, but yeah in comparison to the US, everywhere is bad.

most white collar jobs will have healthcare coverage though

[honest pivot]

Crappy healthcare coverage that is expensive to use and barely covers anything.

[kind oar]

idk about that, not american, but I'm pretty sure all those kids making six figures as @smoky quest always says are doing just fine.

but yeah it would suck to be a lower paid worker in america, but still, it is relative.

[honest pivot]

"most white collar jobs" are definitely not making six figures, or offering remotely good healthcare coverage.

[vapid jay]

I've always heard the UK described as "cheap American labor" where they're fluent in English, have their health care paid for by the gov and will take lower salaries

I guess that is one clincher is we pay a lot for health care in the usa, nice chunk of salary every year even if you don't use it

[kind oar]

I mean, that's because engineers are paid more, but if you look at the stats, the median HOUSEHOLD income is in the 50s and low 60s, so yes, kids graduating and getting 60k is pretty good.

[honest pivot]

Kids graduating and getting $60k was ok-ish 15 years ago. They're still paying them the same? lol

[kind oar]

just looked it up, the median household income in NYC is 68k, and I'm talking about accountants since that is what I'm familiar with, but that is the fresh graduate salary right out of college, it is actually higher but doesn't matter much.

[waxen valve]

thanks

[honest pivot]

The median rent for a studio in NYC is $2595, which is 46% of someone's gross income at $68k. 1 bedroom $3150, 2 bedrooms $3600.

[kind oar]

in what world should a 22 yo kid be able to live alone?

[honest pivot]

You said the "median household income", not the "median income of single 22-year-old kids"

[kind oar]

im sorry but appartment sharing is a thing for a reason, and it doesn't make sense to make a studio for every single person.

[kind oar]

the median house hold income as in the median income of families, and someone going to college for a few years and getting the same amount is just pretty good.

a lot of us have it way better than most people.

[honest pivot]

What point are you making exactly? $68k is certainly not good in New York, whether it's made by a family or a single 22-year-old.

[kind oar]

good or not, it means a lot of white collar jobs have it way better than other parts of society.

[honest pivot]

That was never in question. "Better than most" and "still struggling" are not mutually exclusive.

[kind oar]

yeah but better than most is still better than most lol.
and most 22 yo graduates don't really care about health coverage.

[honest pivot]

Early 20's is when a lot of people discover they have a chronic illness. Fun times.

Personally I think pointing at someone worse off and saying "At least you don't have it as bad as they do" is a distraction. I want everyone to have a decent wage, that allows them to thrive and imagine a future for themselves.

[eager narwhal]

im new to python but why does my code crash when i launch it as a file after I put in the 2nd input, like it just closes the terminal? It doesn't do that in the py charm built-in terminal when I run it tho

crashes when it executes the last line of code no matter what ^

[near ocean]

this is not the appropriate channel to ask for help with code

[undone finch]

Is there anyone Indian here ?
I need to discuss up my 11th and 12th with that man
The topic is related to indian edu. system that's why I need a suggestion from Indian only//

[pastel thunder]

How do i get a research internship at NUS

[gritty rivet]

In Singapore? Try a local forum

[pastel thunder]

i am outside singapore

i have written some research paper but yet to publish them...

[pastel thunder]

i think its not good to mention about them, but then leaving them what are my chances....very slim?

how do i make them accept the application

i only have 4 to 5 months, after which i have to apply for MS...

[gritty rivet]

I have no idea, not sure if anyone else here will

[brittle thorn]

Lol I had that realisation in my late 30s ... 20s should be fine unless you dont take care of yourself or have bad genes....or luck

[crude folio]

Interview went okay!

[brittle thorn]

I have published in a local Physics Journal...dont be afraid to try

[crude folio]

Stumbled on one of the coding tasks expecting the solution to be more complicated but we'll see

[pastel thunder]

publishing isnt an issue i believe in my efforts....its just that how to get into NUS's research internship

[brittle thorn]

Ok if you dont try then chance of success is equal to zero...take a chance...slim is better than none

[pastel thunder]

i will

[brittle thorn]

Good luck...regardless of outcome I think the experience will be great ...I miss doing research papers...

[pastel thunder]

yeah, i hope they accept, i dont have much options for my SOP

ty

[kind oar]

amen to that.

[kind oar]

how do you figure out what to write on?
I have been researching masters programs for a while, and been overlooking any thesis based ones, even though I'm broke and those typically are the cheaper option.

I just never studied and don't know how to choose thesis

[twilit forum]

Hola amigos, a question for you guys who have worked remotely for companies in different countries;
do you request a salary based on where you're at, or where they're at?

Cause I'm a dev in Sweden, got an interview for a company in London, and requested a "Swedish" salary.

Now I'm thinking I'm super stupid and low balled myself big-time

[honest pivot]

Stockholm is also hella expensive.

[kind oar]

it depends, I think a lot of companies do take location into account, but honestly it depends on the situation, what did you request and how much is their regular pay for such job in UK?

[twilit forum]

I requested around 45k GBP per year

[kind oar]

how many years of experience do you have?

[twilit forum]

About 18 months, so pretty junior

[kind oar]

well you might have pushed yourself outside of their budget so don't worry about low balling lol

[twilit forum]

It just a little more than I make now, I wouldn't change job for a worse salary

[kind oar]

usually, you tell the salary that you'd be happy with and put an extra 5%-10%.

so if you're making 80k, and you'd be happy with at least 100k, then you say I want 105-110.

[brittle thorn]

Do something that you are really interested in doing and/or maybe something that you know you can finish in time if you want to graduate on time. Software is great it is cheap or free. Look for collaborators accross disciplines....like software applied to....Physics...which I did

[kind oar]

Oh I'm hoping for a masters in stats and a thesis in something between stats and my background in finance.

but can't really think of something that would be suitable, I researched this and a lot of people says it doesn't have to be original topic as long as I actually do the work.

[smoky quest]

Companies have no reason to pay you based on their location comparing to your location

[kind oar]

I dont think he even research their average local salaries if he think 45k pounds is low balling himself

[brittle thorn]

Forcasting perhaps and lots of work being done using bayesian inference and ML/AI ...so many people doing stuff in that area lol

[twilit forum]

If they offered as much as a local company, I would work for a local company though.

[smoky quest]

and they would do the same on their end 🙂

[kind oar]

Yeah I'm actually interested in masters in stats just for forecasting lol, but certainly won't go as deep as ML.

[smoky quest]

I didn't know it was so expensive. Interesting

[twilit forum]

Devs in london make less than 45k??

[brittle thorn]

Very reasonable lol

[kind oar]

it is hard to pick a topic though, like everything I think and research I see tons of papers on that topic.

[twilit forum]

Glassdoor said avg. salary was 55k or something like that.

[brittle thorn]

Think local look for a collaborator

[kind oar]

how much is the local at sweden?
also is that 55k euros or pounds?

[twilit forum]

pounds
Entry level is at maybe 35000 SEK per month, minimum.

[kind oar]

yeah I guess I should find someone on finance department at whatever school I end up at and see what they think

[kind oar]

well then you're making around 30% more.
you can talk to them again and tell them you researched the topic more and was thinking about 50 pounds.

but ultimately, if it is for a better title then stick around and jump in two years.

[twilit forum]

But I don't make 35000 per year.

[gilded valley]

(I'm an idiot and just misunderstood what you were saring)

[kind oar]

you can either talk to them and tell them you want more, or just let it go.

keep in mind UK isn't part of the EU anymore.

[twilit forum]

Personally I'm don't mid, the position was optionally remote, so there's no reason I can't accept a "Swedish" wage while working in Sweden.
I was just asking for some context from people who are working there

Quite often salary averages can be misleading and confusing, I know I have a hard time "knowing my worth" even in Sweden. I actually have no idea if my own salary is reasonable or not.
It being in a different country where I have less of a grasp wrt cost of living, and what societal services are included

[kind oar]

read from here

[smoky quest]

In general, it never happens, unless you are Linus Torvalds or John Carmack, because:

• If they pay the same, they might as well hire local to them
• If they hire in your location, then there are a bunch of other people willing to pay for the local wages
• There are still a lot of costs to support remote engineers (ex: need a tax id in the country, accounting, taxes, being aware of local laws...)

[near ocean]

Titles mean nothing and i would never even consider staying somewhere because of it

One man's technoking is another man's garbage emperor

[twilit forum]

What never happens? Remote work?

[smoky quest]

no, being paid on the salary of the company's HQ location

[kind oar]

if you're changing job, there are three reasons groups.
better future (promotion and responsiblies)
better money
Other (like you hate it, or a closer job, and so on).

so always aim to cover two of these groups.

[smoky quest]

Remote work has become a standard in the US and still seems to hold so far. Lots of companies are going full remote or hybrid

[kind oar]

didn't you say you aren't from the US?

[smoky quest]

I said I am not american

[kind oar]

ah, but are you in the US?

[smoky quest]

yeah

[kind oar]

yeah still weird active time lol
you are more aligned with aussie timezone

[smoky quest]

thanks mom

[kind oar]

drink your milk

[twilit forum]

So, in shorter term, you generally apply the employees local salaries, not the employers?

[near ocean]

Yes otherwise outsourcing wouldnt work

[smoky quest]

That is correct.
That's not so different from outsourcing

[twilit forum]

That sounds toxic

[smoky quest]

why? Being remote is more costly than local

[kind oar]

It seems they have a local office in sweden

[twilit forum]

I wouldn't accept a lower salary for the same performance for any reason.>
The cost of doing business is the problem of the employer, not mine. I don't directly reap the benefits of their profits, I won't take the hits for their expenses either.

[vapid jay]

That's your problem, mate. It has nothing to do with python, nor with programming. It's more of a 'what a global market is' study field.

[near ocean]

You dont have to, you can always try to negotiate

[smoky quest]

That's neither your nor the employer's problem. That's a market and supply/demand problem

[kind oar]

yes but that is what equilibrium is

[smoky quest]

If you wanted 100ke/year but the market is full of people willing to work the same job for 50ke/year, you will have a hard time to meet an employer willing to meet you there

[twilit forum]

Yeah, but if the market is full of people doing it for 100k/year, why would I accept less?

[smoky quest]

Right, but the market in the UK is not the market in your city

[twilit forum]

Sounds stupid to contact someone who likely already makes more than you're willing to pay in that case

[smoky quest]

Then it depends if they are over, at or under market and how they fit relatively to that

If you ask the same than someone local to me, I will always look first for someone local to me. They are culturaly closer, more available on my timezone and less HR/finance costs and headaches.
If the two markets are at the same level, then it changes part of the equation but not all of it

[twilit forum]

If I work at a company, we are hopefully making some product generating value.

I will expect my compensation to be proportionate to my contribution to that value, in relation to my coworkers.

[smoky quest]

And someone local does produce more value just by virtue of being cheaper

Also note that while individuals tend to think they are special, it doesn't scale.
Companies hire teamS. So no matter how great you are, you also have to think in aggregate

[twilit forum]

No I don't, the person hiring me does.

[near ocean]

Nobody said its fair or right to be paid less because of your location situation, but its entirely voluntary and negotiable

[twilit forum]

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how it shakes out

I think the consensus opinion seem to be that I did in fact not lowball myself 😄

[smoky quest]

Most companies go hire remote because either they have run out of candidate locally, or the cost of that location is low enough to make it worth the downsides. Otherwise, there is no reason to pay more for less

[kind oar]

welcome home lol

that's what I have been trying to say.

but if you do start a business one day, I'd love to work for a swedish local salary.

[near ocean]

Why not a silicon valley one

[kind oar]

well he is in sweden, but if you want to pay me SF salary then I'm down friend!

[smoky quest]

You can, but you have to start in the silicon valley, go to a remote location not too far off the market (ie. stay within the US) and be good enough that companies are willing to compete with other offers

[twilit forum]

Or get a remote job while living in SV, then move to a cheap country!

[smoky quest]

that too. But there are some limitations related to tax/healthcare (healthcare is linked to your employment in the US)

[twilit forum]

I thought London was ultra freaking expensive to live in

[near ocean]

See, the capitalist in me sees this as discrimination in the workplace, but the Londoner in me sees this as a well deserved difference in pay

[kind oar]

well, if you start in SF, move to midwest then the company is gonna lower your salary

[smoky quest]

I have seen a few cases where it doesn't happen

[kind oar]

if they don't, then they will lower your promotion salary potential.

[smoky quest]

nah, they just keep you in the SF bands

[kind oar]

it breaks even either way, but you can always jump ships every two years if that's your style 😛

[smoky quest]

but again, that's not everyone who can pull that off. You have to be worth it and not advertise it to your team mates

[kind oar]

not really

[near ocean]

Advertise what to the team? Salaries? They definitely should be advertised

[twilit forum]

I'm curious, you seemed to think I was actually pushing kind of high, what would you say a reasonable offer by me would have been? @kind oar

[kind oar]

there are other considerations, you might be getting 100k in SF and that is take home 70k, but in lets say florida where no income tax (but aggressive sales tax), 80k would be very similar to 100k in cali

[smoky quest]

You can definitely advertise to the team that you got an exception. But you can also very well have your salary be then reduced to close any exception

[kind oar]

then company would lower your salary, if they think you're good enough that it is worth, they might not think the same about other team members.

[near ocean]

Jump ship instantly

[smoky quest]

So either you shut up and cash in or jump ship. Most people will go with the first solution

[near ocean]

Companies keep pulling this sort of shit because people keep tolerating it

[twilit forum]

People accept to be treated this way, and accept to treat their coworkers like this?
Fuck me I'm glad I live here.

[smoky quest]

for 30k$/year difference, people would do a lot less

[kind oar]

idk man, im neither british or swedish, look up their local salary in your country and see what you will be happy with the extra hassle of talking in english instead of swedish.

[near ocean]

People are greedy for the short run when they could be so much better off on the long run

[honest pivot]

That doesn't mean that they pay well there, though. I dunno how anyone in London survives.

[kind oar]

i would meet @smoky quest in an alley and beat him up for 30k

[smoky quest]

I would let you beat me if you split it

[kind oar]

so I agree with that statement.
yeah man, 15k per year for a few punches? count me in

[smoky quest]

sounds like the pay per view boxing matches

[twilit forum]

look up their local salary in your country
I don't understand what this means.

It just sounded like you were very certain that 45k/year GBP was very optimistic

[kind oar]

you see local salaries in your location, you think about how much it will take you to move *companies, take the extra responibilies, learning curve, risk factors, and so on.

then add like 10% on that.

Ultimately, if you're happy with 45k then you're happy with 45k, as long as it is more than what finding a swedish job would pay you then you should be fine.

you should worry about it when you're paid less than what you can locally.

[kind oar]

...

[smoky quest]

Also try to get multiple offers. That's a good way to get them to outbid each others and also help you get insight into the market and your value.
It's not because the average salary is X that you are average. You can be slightly lower or higher depending on your skills

[twilit forum]

This doesn't tell me anything at all.

[smoky quest]

• and also able to communicate effectively about your skills

[kind oar]

that is a local guy who was saying he makes 25k in LONDON, and the average for an SWE is 35-40k.

[twilit forum]

He just said "graduate"

And junior positions for 33-40k. That's not "average for an SWE"

GLHF poaching someone while offering a lower salary is all I'm saying haha

[honest pivot]

Averages in London are somewhat deceptive. There are some guys at hedge funds making 120k+ and then there is everyone else.

[kind oar]

what is the median for a junior dev?

[smoky quest]

am definitely not gonna help, but we do hire at >40kgpb for new grads in the London for swe

[kind oar]

yes in london

[brittle thorn]

Lol career in boxing should pay a bit more with all the punch talk...

Health issues aside and shorter lifespan

[kind oar]

yeah true, but I'd take a few punches for 15k a year though.
here in Egypt with 15k a year you would live VERY good life.

[smoky quest]

I could hire a junior and split my share with them

[twilit forum]

Maybe i should forward the remote position to you

[kind oar]

I'm not a developer, but thanks!

[graceful mason]

24k was like the highest I saw for internships in central london, would be surprised if someone in a junior position was only making 25k

[kind oar]

@twilit forum

[twilit forum]

Neato, good to know

[slender granite]

I'm an attorney going into my 5th year of practice this year looking to change to something tech-related in the next 5 years, whether that means going into a tech-related field as a lawyer or switching industries and becoming some sort of developer. I'm in my second online Python course and, to illustrate my current ability, I just built a working web scraper that can identify desired URLs, ignore undesired ones, and compiles desired data behind each desired URL.

I was just browsing Indeed and found a job that I think I might actually be qualified for right now. Does anyone know anything about roles like this? This seems really neat!

https://jobs.lever.co/ironcladapp/fce6e92c-6d73-4be7-894a-ba9f0f461cb3

I also saw this link from 1/17 in this channel, which interests me as well:

https://kirasystems.com/learn/what-is-legal-analytics/

[slate violet]

@slender granite I think it's important to understand at this stage that you are learning the basics of a scripting language (Python) that is very useful for data analysis. If you are happy to work as a BI (Business Intelligence) professional, you might also want to learn SQL. If you want to land a job as a "real developer", you probably have to learn a lot about topics like Git, testing (i.e. Pytest) software, and Docker too.

Becoming a good software developer takes time, dedication and effort. If you have normal IQ, it might take you 2-5 years to become pretty good at it.

[slender granite]

Yes, once I finish my web scraping class, I'm going to learn pandas, matplotlib, and SQL

[slender granite]

I test in the top 10% and yes, I'm thinking a 5-year timeline since I'm learning coding slowly on nights and weekends. (day job is time consuming)

[slate violet]

@slender granite I took the same route as you. I learned the most from my colleagues at work. Just seeing what software they used (Pycharm, and vim) was really important for me. If possible, I'd suggest you land a job somewhere, and make developer friends. That's a great shortcut, a great way to speed up your learning. /mytake xD

[slender granite]

I'm lucky enough to have two close friends who are developers

[slate violet]

Sweet!

[slender granite]

(I also asked them this same question, but getting a diversity of answers to the same question is helpful to me)

[gritty rivet]

Fair enough but if you see something you're even vaguely qualified for in the meantime, don't hesitate to just apply. I did not feel ready to apply for my first SWE job (just got the offer yesterday!) and even bombing an interview can be a valuable experience

[kind oar]

@thick juniper you can be freinds!

[slender granite]

Thanks, dowcet! I think I'm going to apply for this Legal Engineer job tonight. It's for people who are either CS specialists with some kind of legal background, or lawyers with some kind of tech background

[slate violet]

@slender granite I have a degree in Economics. I'm used to having an opinion on things, and be part of the decision taking process. I think it's important to undestand, that as a developer / BI professional, you are on the "specialist track". And not per se "management track". Something to keep in mind.

[slender granite]

I have no desire to be a manager. Part of the reason that I want to switch industries...the only room for growth I have is to become a supervising attorney and eventually a law firm partner, which......makes me gag a bit to think about it

[thick juniper]

^ This. This is why I quit. This and the fact that I just hate the work itself. (I'm a trained lawyer in these here United States.)

I'm trying to do the same thing you are. I have my first developer interview sometime next week.

[slate violet]

Okay, you'll also find that your colleagues know a lot about intracies that are a mystery at first. Things like networking. What is binary code? What does iops mean and why does it matter. Stuff like that. The folks who took a CS degree have a lot of the fundamentals down, that we don't. (fyi)

[gritty rivet]

Nice, I would be interested to hear how it goes!

[slender granite]

That's awesome, good luck! Yeah, I find law to be incredibly unfulfilling due to the systematic problems in our legal system.

I'm also toying with the idea of moving to a legal nonprofit where I can work 35 hours/week or less, have plenty of time for studying coding, and take gig work until my student loans are forgiven. Then in 10 years I could look for full time work as a developer

[slender granite]

I'm prepared for that. It's not unlike picking up a new legal practice area, where my adversary might have a decade of knowledge or more and I still have to deliver good results despite having huge gaps in my knowledge. I deal with this by becoming an expert on whatever case I'm working on. At a minimum, I can appear not to have holes in my knowledge when I'm presenting with advance preparation

[slender granite]

If I get a response, I'll post about it here

[slate violet]

@slender granite one thing I did not consider at first, was learning more about iOS and Android. Now I'm very interested in that. It would be so cool to make apps, and see them in the App Store. (also a great way to make a living). It's not that difficult these days, because Swift is quite easy. (easier than Objective C). Just a random thought hahah.

(just saying, there is more than Python and pandas out there.. xD)

anyway, good luck to you @slender granite i think you have the right attitude about it, you'll land a job somewhere!

[slender granite]

Swift is definitely on my radar. One of my CS friends put me in touch with a guy like me who got an MBA, mic dropped out of there pretty quick, and now has a great job as a cooking app developer

[slate violet]

so much fun! ohh yeah

[slender granite]

I've just enjoyed Python so much, I want to become fluent in more of the standard library before I move onto anything else

[slate violet]

tbh. i always underestimate how difficult, and dreadful database/data and managing large amount of datasets are.

if you are interested in datascience, i think that in general, the "data scientists" have more fun playing with their models, than the "data engineers" who have to do some of the drudge work. (i'm generalizing here, and to each his own.. but just a word of caution)

becoming a DB Admin isn't all that great, imho

[slate violet]

Please get Pycharm! Having an IDE is so important. You can learn more about how things work, by just surfing the code base. Clicking through on defitinions. Pycharm is a must, for the professional developer, imho.

[slender granite]

I have Pycharm with the Atom One Dark theme installed ^_^

[slate violet]

Sweet

Also learn about testing. Learn git properly. That's typically what they don't teach you at the introductionary courses.

https://www.obeythetestinggoat.com/

My friend at work gave me this book, maybe you'll like it too

[slender granite]

Ooo this is awesome, I actually need some of this specific information because my web scraper is getting tripped up on some anti-scraping features on a website I need to scrape for work

(the content I'm scraping is in the public domain, but the company hosting it implemented DRM features on it, which IMO is super inappropriate and arguably illegal)

[slate violet]

Oww, been there, done that.

I use scrapy to get around these anti bot measures

It used to be called Crawlera. (now its Zyte). You just pay them something like $20 bucks, and you can make alot requests, that get routed through their servers, which automatically circumvent the antibot protection. If you have money to spend on it, it's an easy solution.

[slender granite]

I changed my user agent and implemented a randomized delay when accessing each URL but it's not enough. My CS friend suggested learning mock. I'll also look into scrapy. Thank you!

[slender granite]

🤤🤤🤤🤤🤤🤤

I just bought the TDD book. Thank you for the recommendation!

[slate violet]

I used Scrappy Middleware. Specifically this; https://scrapy-crawlera.readthedocs.io/en/v1.6.0/ ; to get all the data I needed for my thesis. Works great.

[gritty rivet]

What libraries are you using currently? Definitely check out Selenium if you're not already using it

[slender granite]

urllib
beautifulsoup
ssl

Selenium is a few chapters out in the book I'm using

[dense mesa]

Unlikely, you'd be better off learning Simulink (which also means learning MATLAB)

[slate violet]

@slender granite Selenium is good for scraping too. (it starts a real browser, like Firefox, and then renders the site like you'd normally see it. This allows you to use xpath, and get the data you need.) I use it for a site, and then click on a cookie consent button. (it's pretty sweet).

If you get one of these Google Antibot measures, it'll be hard though to automate that. In that case, you might like Scrapy + Middleware more.

[slender granite]

Oh excellent! I think that might work based on some of my testing!

[twin pendant]

I'm a pretty much near beginner at this. I am in a data science bootcamp that caters to a lot of people at different levels and sometimes I find myself struggling with memorization. I may sometimes still need to remember how to format a class or function. There are some thing I understand conceptually from seeing other people do it, but struggle with replicating myself. Is this normal when starting your career?

[smoky quest]

It's normal. Practice makes perfect and it will be easier to remember as you write more code

[lucid vapor]

Hi, you should ask that question in #python-discussion.

[obtuse wraith]

Fuck I am in the wrong channel sorry

Yeah I just saw it sorry

Can I become programmer without going to an university?

Like learn alone and then go get a job

[smoky quest]

you can try, but it's like doing life in extreme hardcore mode

[obtuse wraith]

Sorry for my bad English, I have to get better

[smoky quest]

It's much simpler to go for college/university and get a degree

[obtuse wraith]

Yeah but the prob is that I d like programming be a plan c in my life

Like plan A: become pilot ,( I have to get better in English lmao)
Plan B: economics and managment

And because life sucks I think we should have several plans in our life

(In 4 months I finish high school that's why I am kinda a lot anxious)

[smoky quest]

What you are asking is no different than going to a pilot discord and asking the same question with plan A and C switched

[obtuse wraith]

Euh no? It's impossible to become pilot s study. First of all cause u flying a fk plane and not a keyboard

And 2nd cause u are carrying several lifes

So yeah kinda stupid argument in my opinion

[smoky quest]

That's missing the point...

[brittle thorn]

Lol you can be a pilot and a programmer

[obtuse wraith]

Sorry if I was aggressive sometimes I am a bad person

[smoky quest]

the point is CS is a high tech job and requires a lot more than typing random stuff on a keyboard

[obtuse wraith]

I am a waste of society lol

[obtuse wraith]

Yeah I agree but I just asked for a simple programmer job,like I am not going to apply for apple software engineering

[smoky quest]

The same way you can have a private license 🙂
You could find simple low pay job with low complexity. But I wouldn't really expect an ambitious career out of it. There would also be a lot of hustling involved to compensate for the lack of education

[brittle thorn]

I agree to having some flexibility in life goals since life can be a bit random but not to this sentiment.. maybe it becomes a self fulfilling thing if you hold this view.

[slim night]

@brittle thorn OH HAI

I decided to take a detour from learning Python to SQL

[brittle thorn]

Nice and learn both

[uneven chasm]

hey guys, I don't know if this is the right channel to ask or not.. But has anyone taken computer science or already took it?

[smoky quest]

I am sure someone has considering there are close to 40,000 people on this discord

[uneven chasm]

yeah hahaha, exactly why I came here to ask XD

[graceful mason]

At what level/country?

[uneven chasm]

Any level and US?

[smoky quest]

so was that your question?

[uneven chasm]

Well, I'm currently in Highschool and I'm thinking of taking computer science in college. My question is if computer science is the right career to take to work in IT and such

[smoky quest]

CS is the typical and most common path to get in CS/SWE jobs.
Their are also other degrees that are more specific to IT, but CS is the one that opens the most doors

[uneven chasm]

Ohh okok that makes more sense

I'm barely in my second year, but I'm pretty sure I wanna go that path.. Thanks a lot I appreciate it

Also sorry, one more question.. What languages do they usually use or require?

[graceful mason]

Depends entirely on what sort of job you're looking at

[smoky quest]

It depends on the job, business, and domain. Languages are tools and which one you pick can depend on a lot of factors

[smoky quest]

If you want to get started, there is https://automatetheboringstuff.com/ which is a good free starter resource

[uneven chasm]

Ohh okok

[uneven chasm]

Alright, thanks a ton I appreciate it

[deep otter]

Check out CS50 on YouTube if you want a free intro to learning about programming and how college is. If you watch and like it then you will be ahead of the curve. If you dont then you saved yourself the time and money.

[uneven chasm]

Ok thanks!

[deep otter]

No problem. It’s something i wish I had watched before college. It’s Harvard and the professor is really good.

Good luck

[uneven chasm]

Also one question, sorry.. You have to be really good in math to take computer science right

[deep otter]

That’s complicated yes and no. Yes for the fact that you have to take a math heavy course load in college(typically) i took up to calc 3.

[smoky quest]

not as much as you think

[deep otter]

But to program you really just need to be a good problem solver. The principles that math teaches you helps build problem solving. At least in my opinion

[uneven chasm]

No way calc 3?

[deep otter]

I failed algebra 2 in HS the first time. You just need to learn to study.

[unreal hearth]

How long is the process of switching our majors?

[summer roost]

calc 3 isn't very advanced math, in the grand scheme of things. But yes, most BS CS programs would require calc 3, as well as statistics and linear algebra

[smoky quest]

also note that HS is very different from college.
College is a lot more interesting and rewarding as it's more focused on actual use cases

[uneven chasm]

Oh damnn, I'm currently borderline passing pre calc, I suck at studying

[uneven chasm]

Oh ok that's good to hear

[deep otter]

My experience was a semester to get a different course path

I met one of my best friends in calc and we made it like a team thing to study all the time and we did very well with that. It is hard to stay motivated by yourself when studying sometimes.

[summer roost]

you're going to need to learn to study, and it's much better to learn now, in high school, while the stakes are much lower than in college/university

[unreal hearth]

Im currently taking a c++ class in my current major, but the major that im switching to doesn't require it, although it does require python class which i already have a credit for. I actually have an appointment with the counselor of the major im switching to and plan on asking this , but im still curious if i should drop this class that i dont need for my new major or not. I also don't enjoy it

[uneven chasm]

you have any tips?

[deep otter]

If it doesn’t drop you below your credit requirements and you know you are going to switch majors you could drop it

[unreal hearth]

Alright thanks!

[deep otter]

What are you switching to?

[summer roost]

study with other people if possible, and try to explain the things you do understand to others, and have them do the same for you. Teaching is a great way of reinforcing learning. Stick to a schedule, don't try to cram all at the end. Spaced repetition is very important for learning - being reminded of the same stuff over and over, across a long period of time.

and ask for help. If you're struggling, ask the teacher to try to help you catch up. You'd be surprised how willing teachers are to devote their time to helping someone who wants to learn.

[unreal hearth]

CS to CIS, i want to focus more on the front end aspects and business since im not the brightest in science.

[uneven chasm]

That's actually very helpful thanks a lot

[zealous herald]

Hello,I'm kinda stuck on what course I should study in university, already doing full time BscIT(Computer science) in an online university, idk what course I should take for the physical uni I'm about to go to....don't wanna take the same course again since it'll be like I'm repeating the same thing

Initially, I've always wanted to go into the medical line or Mental health/psychology but later i got into coding and programming stuff.....now I'm about to go to a physical university and don't know what to take...

Are there courses medical+Computer science related? I'd like some recommendations and advice though

[solid flume]

Hello, I am a high school junior at the moment and I was recently sent a CJO by the NSA for the High school work study program, I was wondering if this will help me in Computer science going into college? I also want to apply to JHU Applied physics lab but Im not sure... I just want some thoughts on the NSA program
I heard it might not be helpful because it has bad press and you cant really talk about stuff you do, so it might not look impressive to colleges.

[ivory talon]

There's Bioinformatics, which (quoting the Google search first result) is

Bioinformatics is a subdiscipline of biology and computer science concerned with the acquisition, storage, analysis, and dissemination of biological data, most often DNA and amino acid sequences.
there's also Biotechnology and Biological Engineering it seems, but these a bit less focused on computer science

[vivid pollen]

Hey guys, I’m kinda stuck. I got a cert in data science but then couldn’t find a job because they all required master degrees- so I took a job as an app developer for my friends start up. I learned node and react but they ran out of money before the app was complete. So I’ve been looking for a job this past and have had a lot of trouble. Now tomorrow I have a technical assessment with Amazon and been grinding hard on algorithms.. but I’m realizing there’s no way I can solve these in time. Algorithms isn’t what I’ve been doing for the past 3 years. I just don’t know where to look or apply. I know django, react, node, tensorflows, and data science- but I probably learned too much and now I lack ‘experience’ in one specific field. Do you guys have any advice?

[thick juniper]

Does anyone know the site codility? If so, do you have ideas as to what level of problems they'd assign for a junior dev technical assessment? I'm to have three of increasing difficulty in 90 minutes. I don't know if that just means one easy, one medium, one hard or what.

[summer roost]

I don't know that site, but I'd be inclined to guess two easy and one medium, or maybe one easy and two medium. Harder problems don't have much predictive power for interviews, because even good candidates may not be able to come up with a good solution for them in a short period of time.

[twilit forum]

Sounds like bioinformatics would suit you.

It's a kinda broad field, everything from modelling proteins, pharmacokinetic modelling and genomics can get bundled into that.

I studied bioinformatics with a focus on genomics, but now I develop data capture pipelines for biotech.

Feel free to shoot some questions if you got any, ill try to answer.

[vast shoal]

It seems like it might be hard to get a data science job with that profile, so maybe focus on entry-level web dev jobs instead.

And there's probably a lot of competition for high-profile names like Amazon, so maybe apply to a lot of smaller companies as well.

[zealous herald]

Alright, thanks ill check more about the course and ask if i have questions

[near ocean]

Theres no such thing as "learned too much and now you lack experience" for a couple of reasons:

• theres no such thing as knowing too much
• if you learned to use and are proficient in all these technologies, where is the proof? Do you have projects somewhere?

[dense mesa]

Genuinely not trying to be contrarian here, but I would say now is the best time to apply for Amazon for people wanting to get into FAANG/MANGA/big N/the big tech companies.

There is a big hiring push at Amazon that I'm now allowed to talk about following my internship, it's not easy to get in, but the chances are best now

[vast shoal]

Sure, but given that their experience is limited and they desperately need a job, I'm advising them to not only apply to big names, because even if conditions are relatively good, it's probably still going to be harder than somewhere more low-profile.

[dense mesa]

Ahh I see now yeah. That makes sense, will reread since I only skimmed the conversation initially

[kind oar]

@thick juniper how did the python exam? test? go

[summer roost]

Do you plan to apply for a job at Amazon after you graduate, now that you've had an internship with them?

[kind oar]

well that's the point of internships after all, they're just testing the water for applicants, if they liked him and he's willing, they'd send him a full time offer.

[dense mesa]

This is just my personal experience but have no interest in going back 😅 quite a few other interns in my area (not SWE) felt the same, I've signed a grad job elsewhere

Software does seem a lot better, but there's a reason the overall culture gets the criticism it does

[dense mesa]

I withdrew my grad application after leaving

This is obviously just anecdotal, if anyone wants to know more I can only suggest looking at Glassdoor/levels.fyi/etc

[kind oar]

yup knew a guy that was at amazon a decade or so ago, but honestly I'm pretty sure that culture exist in all those high tech ones.

I think M$ is more chill generally though.

[dense mesa]

For sure, have friends who were at Microsoft, Google and FB/meta over summer, they had subjectively better experiences but still stressful

[kind oar]

there is a reason those pay better.

[dense mesa]

Yeah exactly

My internship did have a lot of good aspects, I learned so much in just a summer. But it did make me see how closely Glassdoor reviews correlate with the reality of working there

[kind oar]

well that's because you didn't know much lol, but yes, bigger companies are certainly better for resume.

[summer roost]

I phrased the question in as neutral a way as I could, but that's what I was trying to find out. Anecdotally, I know of a few people who worked for Amazon, and none of them liked it. 🙂

[kind oar]

I think to thrive in those companies it takes certain type of personality that a lot of the folks that go into programming don't have.

but ultimately, it is like the army for you americans, I don't think many people like it, but they just put in their few years for the GI bill and benefits then move on.

you put a couple of years in those companies and then move on to another company, this gets you a bit faster career progression.

Is it worth it? depends on the person.

[vast shoal]

We don't allow unapproved advertising (including for these types of positions). You can request approval by messaging @severe widget.

[kind oar]

does he still get notified when you delete his message?

[vast shoal]

Good question, I hope so.

I mean, it should've pinged him when I first sent it

And I doubt the ping gets deleted when I remove the message

Ok then

[kind oar]

didn't show the thing on top right thing, but the red 1 thing on the server showed. and yeah it shows it

[vast shoal]

Good enough for me

[kind oar]

when someone pings me and then delete the message while im logged off, I see the notification, but don't know who did it.

but it works here so doesn't matter.

[noble bramble]

yeah it does ping ;D, btw dementati, ofc makes sense ; )

[pseudo bone]

hi i have a few questions regarding my career as software developer.Is there any one here working in the field?

i am new here so dont know about the rules

[thick juniper]

Thanks. Turns out it's actually three questions in 60 minutes, so I'm guessing it has to be either two easy and a medium or maybe even three easy. I just think medium questions are too involved to have more than one in 60 minutes (given that there will be three questions).

How much should I worry about performance scores?

Codility (and maybe all of them, I don't know) checks for "correctness" (how well it handles edge-cases) and "performance" (how well it handles large numbers). As I rely on loops too much, I often get 100% correctness but maybe 50% or even 20% or less performance.

Obviously it's best to get 100% for both, but which one should I privilege and, as seems likely, if I can't maximize for performance, should I comment about it in the answer?

[thick juniper]

I have my interview on Wednesday. I can do the exam any time before the interview and I'm thinking of doing it Tuesday so I can practice more. So... I'll know then. Thanks for asking, though. I appreciate the consideration.

[thick juniper]

Don't ask to ask, just ask.

(And It's a Python discord with 40,000 people on it. Someone here probably does know something about careers in software development 😉 . )

[dark arrow]

300,000+ people 🥴

[pseudo bone]

so i just graduated with my masters in computer science
and i dont have too much experience with coding or atleast as much as i think u need to land a stable job. i have worked on different languages for my projects like developed an app in JAVA. worked on a website for more than 1 year slowly developing it with my professor as a student job. now that i have graduated i feel like this feeling of dread taking over me seeing that i might not have enough projects or experience to pass an interview so i kind of need guidance on how to proceed.
what kind of project ideas should i find in github. How to make them my own by building them from scratch etc

[thick juniper]

Sorry. Undercut you all there!

EDIT: us all?

[near ocean]

i dont think theres a wrong and right answer here, maybe except "what does the client want to prioritize"
however, i think an easy way to start getting into more performant coding is to try and think how you could squeeze maps in your problems, this wont always be appropriate but if you take simple problems as examples you can see how theyre immensely powerful
take for example, leetcode's first puzzle two sum

[vast shoal]

A masters in CS and several student projects is sufficient to have a good chance at landing a job. You aren't really expected to be a 100% functional professional when you graduate, there are quite a few things you have to learn on the job, and employers know this. I wouldn't worry too much, and that dread you're feeling is something pretty much everyone experiences as they transition from school to work life.

That said, it certainly doesn't hurt to get into the habit of learning new things and working on personal projects in your spare time. Not saying you should spend all your free time "working", but if it's something you enjoy, it helps keep you up to speed with technological advances in the field and can help with your confidence as a professional.

As for project ideas, we have a page for that here:

!projects

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[smoky quest]

Just to be clear: by performance, they typically care more about the complexity of the algorithm rather than the language specific performance improvement. The test suite/cases will be designed to exhibit them. So think more in terms of an algo with a O(n^2) vs O(n)
While there is some leeway and sometimes some gotcha type of questions, it's still pretty important and if it's there, it's for a reason 😉

[gritty rivet]

I had a codlity thing recently. It was four questions in 90 min and I got 100% scores on everything even though one question required JavaScript which I know next to nothing about. Hope yours goes just as well :)

[pearl stag]

Does anyone have advice for transitioning from frontend developer to backend developer?

[pseudo bone]

https://data-flair.training/blogs/python-project-ideas/

i found this website as well might be helpful to add this to your website for projects

[summer roost]

I'd rather wait a minute for the right answer than have something instantaneously give me the wrong answer. Correctness matters much, much more than performance.

[smoky quest]

• demonstrate backend skills
• create or have opportunities to contribute more to the backend
• talk to your lead/manager about it

[gritty rivet]

If you haven't seen this, you should see it: https://roadmap.sh/backend

[thick juniper]

It won't 😆 . I've been grinding Codility "lessons" recently, and everything went (i.e. all > 60%, many 100%) until Lesson 6, I started Lesson 7 (out of 17) yesterday and... hit a brick wall.

EDIT: Thanks, though.

[thick juniper]

That's what I'd hoped.

[gritty rivet]

I didn't realize you could do lessons on there, do you need to pay?

[hollow cove]

how much of a chance does big company names in your resume give you

[thick juniper]

Nope, though I think there might be more if you do pay.

[kind oar]

idk but they give you better chances.

[slender granite]

Hey this is really neat! Thanks for the resource. I will try some of this and see if I have the chops to potentially apply somewhere or do some really basic gig work.

[smoky quest]

doesn't matter in most cases

[hollow cove]

really?

[smoky quest]

I never lie

[thick juniper]

Glad it helps. I think leetecode is standard (please someone correct me on that if I'm wrong), but it's what my interview is using and I'm finding it helpful.

[vapid jay]

i'm 17, i am not really sure what to do as far as career/major go, the only thing i somewhat find interest in is coding, i just recently started my first ever coding class, which mainly focuses on python, and so now i have the idea of becoming a software engineer. my dad is old fashioned and thinks that the only way to be successful in life is through college, i looked into what classes i'd be taking to get a computer science degree and it was all high-level maths and physics, i really, really, really, despise maths. i have heard of a way to get certification for coding so you can get hired by companies/organizations, but how is that done? and would the certificate be as good as a CS degree? i'm kinda looking for a way to convince my dad this

[oblique dawn]

Is there a career for someone dumb who dislikes anything to do with design?

[smoky quest]

Your dad is right that college is the way.
Also note that the math you see in HS are very different than the ones in college. They will be more interesting as more grounded in concrete cases

[smoky quest]

like UX design?

[oblique dawn]

Anything design.

[vapid jay]

i have taken calculus 1, and trust me it does not seem interesting at all, and all the classes i would have to take are calculus 2 and 3, and 3 classes of calculus based physics :/

[smoky quest]

Also keep in mind that the certificates are typically like 3-6 months. So you would be comparing people who have been studying something for 3-6months to people who have been doing it for 3-5 years full time. So obviously, it's not comparable

[smoky quest]

I couldn't design something to save my life and I do have a career. Just go into something that does not have design 😉

[oblique dawn]

I don't know what to do, lol.

[smoky quest]

tbh, it ain't that bad and it gets fun in college

[smoky quest]

have you googled "software engineer career" ? While I want to help, it's not like I am gonna copy/paste a list or make it up on the spot for you

[oblique dawn]

yea, most of them say: web, ux, android.

[smoky quest]

there is a lot more to it like backend, data science, technical sales, solution architects... Am surprised they didn't list them

[oblique dawn]

I'm dumb for those, but okay.

[vapid jay]

but the unnecessary classes needed, imo alegbra is the highest level of math you would need programming

[oblique dawn]

Thx for helping.

[smoky quest]

downplaying yourself will only server to limit yourself

[oblique dawn]

I'm just saying the truth.

[smoky quest]

How do you know that for sure? Because I can tell you the maths are definitely required

[smoky quest]

so am I. You also lack perspective to see your potential. Not of your fault, just how a lot of humans are wired

[vapid jay]

i've also done some research, and all i've found say that coding is not math heavy

[smoky quest]

software engineer is so much bigger than the tiktoks portray it as sitting behind a desk and looking cool with a hoodie and typing random keystrokes

[vapid jay]

i don't even have tiktok 😂

but i get what you mean and i do understand

[smoky quest]

that's a good thing :p

but yeah, as someone who has been in the field for a while, the maths do help.
As students, there are things you know you need to know, but there are also things you don't know that you need to know

[oblique dawn]

I don't have that much of a potential, but thx.

[smoky quest]

That doesn't sound healthy. Hopefully things do get better for you

[thick juniper]

I would just like to add, @vapid jay, that as someone who's trying to break into the field: the math helps. Go to college, learn to focus and to study, and then go be good and useful (and try to have some fun too, of course). You have plenty of time. You don't need to rush things.

[gritty rivet]

@slender granite I would second LeetCode. All practice is helpful but it does seem the most widely used. I mostly practice Easy still, I rarely can solve Medium on there. Saw a slightly modified version of a LeetCode problem in a real interview

[slender granite]

I bookmarked both Codility and LeetCode ^_^

import gratitude as gt
thanks = gt()
J.Baroff.thanks
dowcet.thanks
SourPickle.gostudy()

Has anyone in here done an online CS degree?

I'm doubtful I'd want to get an entire degree, much less on someone else's timeline, but I'm curious about it at least

[kind oar]

so you're saying SWE experience in google is the same weight as SWE in some random unknown software company?

[vapid jay]

I mean if you got fired from Google in 9 months but killed it at a no name startup for two years it could balance out. Everything equal prestige will be the tipping point

[kind oar]

why are you assuming someone will be dum dum at google but smort at no name?
I'm assuming performance is the same level, not a completely different person.

[vapid jay]

True you’re right about this and everything else my b

[kind oar]

I know someone who did an online cs degree, I think oregeon state? i don't remember, but she only had to do 2 years since she had some classes covered from her previous one.

but for you with law degree, I don't think there will be much overlap.

[kind oar]

your relative value at google will be lower than small company due to google being bigger and you not having as much "space", but the weight in resume for a bigger relevant company will always have more prestige.

but once you're in the interview phase it is all about yourself, google won't help you.

[vapid jay]

Yeah that’s true just saying you worked at Google gives you a certain air

[kind oar]

what's the quetsion? but try this https://www.teamwavelength.com/photodiode-basics/

im too dum dum for this, but this is probably it
https://emant.com/324003

[vapid jay]

i kinda have to start deciding from now, as in summer 2022 i have to direct my classes toward a certain major. i might just switch to psychology as i already meet all the math requirement which is calculus 1 😅, they get paid nearly as well

and maybe i could do coding on the side, that could be fun!!

[thick juniper]

If you're too eager avoiding a pinch, you might find yourself run over by a car. Said another way, the pain of two semesters of math will appear NOTHING when you're 35, making a killing, and having fun while doing it. Seriously, you will literally never think about the classes. But you might regret NOT taking them your entire life if your passion is really for programming and not for human psychology.

They are both similar occupations in a way. They both deal with solving problems, one technical and one personal. Personally, I'd take the technical.

There is a third path: take both programming and psychology your first year. And talk to your professors. And, perhaps most importantly, talk to professionals in both fields who have worked in that field for a while. Ask them what their day is like. If the life of a psychologist sounds great, go for it. If the life of a programmer sounds great, go for that. You don't have to take the math in your first year (I don't think you do... I could be wrong).

[vapid jay]

honestly, i’m not even sure if programming is my real passion, it does seem to interest me tho, and i haven’t found many subjects that interest me. im

im thinking, if i finish this semester (spring 2022) and i feel like programming is it, then i might just take the math and physics classes online while my college still offers them. and take the CS and other classes in person

[thick juniper]

And remember that to be a "psychologist" (as in the type of person who shows up when you google "average income psychologist") usually has a PhD. That's a lot more schooling than 3-5 years for CS.

EDIT: At least, that's generally the case in the USA, where I am. It sounds like you might be in Britain and I know their system is somewhat different.

[vapid jay]

i’m in california haha

and yeah i know about the phd in psychology, it’ll take a good while

[thick juniper]

1. Go to College, especially if Pa is paying for it or you can get in for free somehow,
2. Give them both a try if you can, learning to focus and to study (lifelong skills in any field),
3. Talk to professionals in the field and ask them about their day-to-day lives (like a literal, 'could you tell me how the normal day goes, like hour to hour?' is perfectly fine),
4. Work in an office if possible (more possible for psychology I think), and
5. Do not let a year of annoyance (two measly classes) risk living your life with regret and resentment, or even just living your life with 10% less joy; 10% is a LOT.

[vapid jay]

@thick juniper are you able to call in a few hours?

[smoky quest]

yes

[kind oar]

no

[smoky quest]

People get interviews because of their experience, not because the company name.
There is also a correlation vs causation thing too. Great companies with great problems to have and great engineering tend to have interesting projects. Not the other way around

[kind oar]

and that is what im saying, experience on a big company will always be better than experience in lower company.

[smoky quest]

how would that make that person more successful at the role you are hiring for?

[kind oar]

because that's how life works my friend, doesn't always have to be logical.

if you really want to reason with it, it could be some reason, like maybe bigger companies are more efficient, they have been in the biz for long that their processes and mindset and all that jazz have been finely tuned over years, been there done that, in smaller companies.

Honestly, sometimes I feel like you just like disagreeing with me if you can 😛

you teasing me, you naughty naughty

[thick juniper]

Not sure I want to give my number to a random guy on Discord, but feel free to DM me.

[vapid jay]

oh i meant call through discord haha

if you can’t then it’s alright, i’ll dm you once i’m home

[thick juniper]

I forgot one could do that, actually. Just DM me and we'll take it from there.

[kind oar]

than smaller companies* not in

yes big companies are sometimes (often times lol) more clunky and lots of red tape, but still better for many reasons.

[real cave]

Hey

[smoky quest]

It's just based on a selfish approach.
If you are hiring for a team, whether as a manger or engineer, you want your team mates to be awesome. Because them being awesome means your team does better. Which means more successes to share and less idiots to babysit. And with more successful teams, it means the company is more successful, which means their sales go up.

So from there, prioritizing someone based on which company they worked at makes sense if their work has any value.
And while google from 2006 was a lot more meaningful, in 2022, there have been so many people going through it that they can't claim to have the top 1% because mathematically, they just can't. I also remember talking recently with someone about how google is now the new cisco and has too much issues innovating due to their culture

(I also do like to argue, but not just you, that's my passion)

So yeah, that goes back to correlation vs causation. Interesting companies do tend to have interesting problems, which make for interesting resumes

[real cave]

Oh

[kind oar]

I can see that

but to reply to your point, you thinking that only the top 1% matters is very... unreasonable.
in education and skills and life in general, there is a diminishing returns, so you don't have to create a great process and be top 1% or whatever to be great.

you working in a company that has several of those great people and learning from them is still VERY valuable.

what you're saying is just the fact of life, early movers advantage, when something is new you can contribute more meaningful things, but what was meaningful 15 years ago is now have less value if you are doing =(value provided/total value outsanding).

so it is harder to be top 1% now.

and just so you don't start this point, yes it was also harder to gain knowledge and harder to do stuff earlier, but doesn't change the fact that tech has it gotten way deeper and way broader also.

[smoky quest]

My points are actually slightly different.

Google used to be proud of saying they only hire the top of the top of the engineers. The top 1% of the engineers.
So having been at google could be interpreted of you surviving their rigorous tests and being part of the top 1%.
But now, google has multiple tens of thousands of employees. So they can't claim that much anymore because the top 1% is less than their number of employees.
(also from knowing some folks being hired there, I can assure you they aren't in the top 1% of engineers)

There is also the other point with regards to the work opportunities. FAANG work at such scale that the people working there can encounter problems that most other companies don't even hit. And because they are so large, they have enough capacity to work on brand new stuff. I still remember facebook saying how they have 20 engineers just dedicated to write their own caching system.
So all in all, working at a faang gives you an opportunity to have interesting thing on your resume. But because the companies are so large, there are also swath of engineers who don't do much and just milk the name.

[kind oar]

Yes, but more people are in your field now, it isn't just google.
and for the other point, yes they have more capacity, but what they learnt along the way is also valuable.

either way, you can argue all you want, but company's brand got its own weight, yes you won't hire an unqualified person just because he worked in google or whatever, if two people with similar experience and achievements, the google guy will have a bit of an advantage, and that is a fact.

people take demotions and pay cuts to work at bigger companies (in the same field), the opposite doesn't happen.

and if you're gonna talk about capacity and resources, then smaller companies also have problems that medium/large companies won't face, they just have it due to budget restrictions, so there is a lot of duct tape solutions that could be VERY smart and very useful, but on the grand scheme of things, there could be other solutions that are readily available that would do the job better, so your experience and achievement also won't be as cool as you'd think, but you'd get browny points for being able to work with what you have and making something good out of it, but won't really push you over the edge because what you did was solving a problem that have already been solved.

but obviously the individual have more weight than the company, that's just a duh lol.
you write your name on the resume, you don't type "guy from google"

[slender granite]

This is anecdotal, but a friend of mine is in the top 1% of CS engineers in a niche field. They have a hard time finding candidates with the right background so lately they've begun hiring people who have excellent foundational skills and investing in their growth so they have the required skills in a few years

granted this person is working in an emerging industry with only a few companies in a niche sector, most of which are still closely held and years away from profitability

I'm curious to what extent that model is adopted by other emerging niches in CS/tech in emerging fields. Would it be a viable strategy to look for entry-level positions in a niche field with a company that is looking to invest in people so they acquire uncommon skills on top of bread and butter skills like python/sql/etc.?

[kind oar]

well, you can't compare someone with relevant niche experience to someone without that, apples oranges as you like to say in English.

but if all things are equal, company size would be an advantage.

[kind oar]

I personally think specialization is always better than generalists, but you need to specialize in a niche that:
A) not many people there.
B) will actually be useful instead of no one caring about.

[slender granite]

if your company is building something that doesn't exist, you can't exactly find people who have experience in the non-existent technology, right?

[slender granite]

Are you aware of any resources that categorize niches or emerging fields? Say, like, a list of the top 100 emerging technologies for the next decade?

[kind oar]

if someone knows for sure what is going to happen in 10 years they wouldn't share it.

[slender granite]

I'm not referring to trade secrets or other confidential business information, just stuff that's still at the R&D level, maybe there's been some white papers at conferences or some prototypes, or some startups

like holographic storage

or using DNA as storage. (apparently the problem with that is DNA has a slow read/write speed, despite having an astronomical capacity for storage)

[kind oar]

yes im just saying no one knows these things, more risk more reward, if you want to risk your second career then go for it lol.

personally? I'd say utilize what you already know, I have accounting and finance background, I'm learning a bit more about tech.
but I'd never go compete with kids who been coding in their free time for the past 10 years.

work with what you already have, I think you saw our chat from dew days ago about legal and coding?

[vapid jay]

I'm at the very basic basic of python and I'm stuck can some one hop in a vc real quick and help show what I'm doing wrong?

[slender granite]

Hi DigDoggity, please refer to https://discord.com/channels/267624335836053506/704250143020417084 for instructions on how to get help. This is the careers channel

[vapid jay]

yep I did

[slender granite]

Yeah fair point! I suppose I could try to get a developer job with Westlaw or Lexis. Or maybe automation/development for law firms. I saw this link recently, seems like a possible good match for me in the future:

https://kirasystems.com/learn/what-is-legal-analytics/

[kind oar]

@slender granite
we were talking about this few days ago, but idk much about law.

I know privacy and patent laws are big in tech though.

[slender granite]

If I do decide to keep practicing law, yeah, I might see if I can get some kind of IP compliance role where I can advise startups and other smaller tech companies about whether and to what extent their software uses anything that's already subject to protection or whether it qualifies for its own protection

[smoky quest]

The point of joining a large company is to get a large pile of cash. Not less. They have to compensate for the more boring environment and red tapes
People do take pay cuts all the time to join startups. The work is more fun and there is more growth. But they can't compete in compensation

[karmic wren]

I'm not sure they could ever claim that. Yeah, certainly they have very smart people working for them. But plenty of smart people, including "the top 1%" and so forth, aren't interested in devoting years of their life to distributing Nissan ads more efficiently

[smoky quest]

It's more about the fact they did and less about whether or not it was true 😉

[brittle thorn]

I know of a lawyer personally who got into bitcoin and etherium early and now has a practice around blockchain and smart contracts. He isnt a software dev but he does lead a local meetup for etherium which has a good contingent of devs

Smart contracts living on the blockchain is an interesting intersection of the law and software...the code as the law or making both the expression and implementation embodied and enforecable once set in code

[hollow cove]

sounds like a plan

[high mesa]

So if I chat in here I can get voice privileges?

[kind oar]

Lol who are you joking friend? Those people leave and join those startup for title and extra responsibility (that they would have waited for in big ones) AND the big reason is equity, they are taking a risk hoping for more return in the future.

[rare nymph]

What If I want to start a startup suppose my company makes games and usefull apps, What are the main keypoints I have to make sure off?

[gritty rivet]

https://www.ycombinator.com/library/4D-yc-s-essential-startup-advice

[rare nymph]

ty will look into it

[smoky quest]

the equity is a trap.
Unless you are founding team, you would earn a lot less than at a faang

[tawny oar]

ahh it sounds that you work in digital agency / IT consulting mate? cool

[dense mesa]

Digital consultancy yeah 👀

[tawny oar]

just curious do you have conputer science background?

[graceful apex]

So I am taking this AI class and I want to do research in AI in the future but I am struggling so damn much. All my friends seem to be picking it up so much easier than me and honestly thats just so disheartening.

Should I just drop the class and forget about AI since I am not technical enough to understand the algorithms. I am having trouble with the theory and the python language itself and don't know how to fix both tbh

[vapid jay]

hey guys me and my friend have some ideas about web application we are thinking of making one so if anyone interested in joining
pls contact me
We originally need people who work on python,HTML5,css and JavaScript

(This is not a Job, and no one is getting paid )

[dense mesa]

Nah regular engineering

[tawny oar]

whats regular engineering?
sorry im not from engineering background at all

[dense mesa]

Like engineering engineering, manufacturing and industrial in my case

[gritty rivet]

Nobody can answer this for you. Your options are to quit and do something else or to just work harder at it until you succeed. Both paths are valid options. You have to ask yourself what your goals are and what you're willing and not willing to do to reach them.

[tawny oar]

ahh industrial, i see

[graceful apex]

So you’re saying there is no innate limitation

It’s whether I put in the work or not

[gritty rivet]

Basically, yeah

[graceful apex]

Then I suppose grinding is the only way to I will get to my goal. I want to do AI research and later translate that to industry
but I can't even do basic search algorithms right now lol. I'll work up to it I suppose

[gritty rivet]

You seem very clear and decisive about what you want. If that's the case then absolutely, just keep at it. The harder you have to work to get there, the more rewarding it may feel when you finally do

Programming is hard. If it feels easy, you're not challenging yourself enough

[graceful apex]

The thing is that I have a pattern of giving up on problems when I can't solve them when it comes to coding. I feel like that's the only thing that's holding me back.
The fear of failing is enough for me to quit, I definitely need to fix that.

[gritty rivet]

Definitely, you need to remember that failure is a learning experience. For example... I recently had my first technical interview. I completely bombed the first question, fumbled around and felt like an idiot for half an hour in front of someone I was trying to impress. It was truly painful.

Afterwards I got to work on figuring out how to solve the problem, and asked other people for help. I leaned something I wouldn't have learned if I'd been afraid to fail.

And the best part is, I got the job anyway :) But even if I hadn't, it would have been worth it. No pain no gain.

[graceful apex]

True I shouldn't worry about bombing this first assignment in this AI class but I should learn from it and improve

Thank you for your advice!

[smoky quest]

AI/ML are complex topics blending many different subjects together.
That takes time, energy and a lot of failures.

So start small and decompose your goals and projects in smaller ones. It gives you multiple victories along the way, which can be helpful to stay motivated, and by virtue of being smaller, these chunks of work are easier to achieve

Related to that, most results you see are just that: results.
You don't get to see all the failures and retries.

[graceful apex]

Yeah this class doesn’t really hold your hand so I was kind of thrown into it. But I will try to make the best of what I have to work with.

Thank you for your advice! I will keep that in mind going forward cause I am very passionate about AI

[smoky quest]

feel free to come to this discord with technical questions as well when you feel stuck

[graceful apex]

Thank you! That is definitely my intention for the entirety of this semester

[fallen wharf]

like do you guys know how much money is enough? I am gonna start a job that earns 120k per year if iI just stay at this job and invest wisely i will retire with a lot of money

is it worth it to swtich every 3-5 years? or just do it every 7 years?

[smoky quest]

as (in)frequently as needed based on your objectives, opportunities, country and customs

there is no specific answer to that one with a specific number attached to it

[fallen wharf]

yeah ill just stay every 7 years next time i'll give 2 weeks notice instead of leaving immediately

[summer roost]

enough for what?

[fallen wharf]

Like I’ll retire with at least 7 figures if invested correctly

As long as I budget I should be fine

[summer roost]

retire at what age? Spending how much per year? Investing how much per year?

[summer roost]

Seven figures starts at a million dollars. Most people could not retire on 1 million dollars.
if you spend $40k per year and invest $80k per year, you'd have 2 million dollars in 14 years (assuming an 8% annual return on your investments), which is likely enough to retire on.
If you spend $80k per year and invest $40k per year, you'd have 2 million dollars in 21 years, with the same investment assumptions.
If you spend $100k per year and invest $20k per year, you'd have 2 million dollars in 28 years, with the same investment assumptions.

[vapid jay]

guys

[summer roost]

and how much you personally need to retire depends on your budget.

[orchid ivy]

you can use a retirement calculator like this one: https://www.nerdwallet.com/investing/retirement-calculator

[dense mesa]

Lean FIRE

[iron estuary]

if some one has 2m today with what salary can he / she retire

retire today i mean

[kind oar]

It is one of the reasons, but the onlg one, at a ceetain point you find that you have more money than you think and start looking into passion oe whatever bs keep people going, as i said before, the relative value at bigger company is less visible due to size.

[vapid jay]

Any Discord for finding CS/Python new grad jobs?

[kind oar]

Linkedin

[vapid jay]

Linkedin discord?

[kind oar]

No https://linkedin.com

[vapid jay]

Yea I have around 500-1000 applications I did on there with no replies but only for companies that pay over 100k to new grads

[kind oar]

If you applied 500 times with no interviews then your resume is not good or you are applying to jobs you aren't qualified for. I suggest you post your resume and have people review it.

Post your resume in a local CS forum so people can review it. (resume best practices changes from one country to another).

[vapid jay]

Yep Ive already done that. I have no internship experience probably that's why no replies. Just ML grad school and tons of ML research fellowships.

[kind oar]

Then aim lower.

Also try to network, see if you know someone who can help you find a job.

[smoky quest]

yeah, if you hit the right path, it can certainly be a privileged path

[kind oar]

Same for those who are in good position on big companies. Grass always greener and all that.

Im really curious how you stay up late when you're in america, what's your typical work schedule.

[smoky quest]

I like to keep an air of mystery :p

[honest pivot]

I have to say, I didn't really understand what makes a good resume/CV until I started evaluating them and interviewing people myself. I think it's very hard to figure out without concrete examples.

[brittle thorn]

Why some quit high paying jobs to have no salary and do startups lol

[vapid jay]

getting computer related jobs are weird since college degree is not the most valid component you have and all you have to do is getting showing your abilities in just a hour of interview

[brittle thorn]

I think it is precious... hold on to it ....big corps keep big data on us

[kind oar]

Busted, its me hr

[kind oar]

.

A lot of those also have more money than they need so they start focusing on other things, not just money.

I know some guy who made it big a couple of decades ago and he spends more time on his farm than his job

[brittle thorn]

And invest money to make money ...passive income then do passion projects

[brittle thorn]

Lol those that dont end up like Bezos and end up doing more harm than good in some areas

[fallen wharf]

70 oh thanks

[fallen wharf]

70

Spending? I am not sure. Investing 37k per year

[valid geode]

guys i need some help. What is an infastructure engineer? is it simmilar to a software developer?

what are the responsibilities etc. im new to programming in general so im unsure abt all the terminology

[gritty rivet]

I agree that LinkedIn is way more valuable than any Discord for finding jobs.

Mintbean is the most relevant Discord I can think of. Aside from CSCareerQuestions most of the other relevant ones I know of are field specific like data engineering, DevOps, etc

[gritty rivet]

Infrastructure engineering can involve software engineering but it's much more about managing servers, cloud resources, networks, etc. Could be a traditional sysadmin role or more DevOps depending on where

The best way to understand what the responsibilities are is to search job listings on Indeed or LinkedIn or whatever

You're in the wrong channel but it's telling you that Python is already installed. Check out #❓｜how-to-get-help

[kind oar]

Meh, i personally don't care about being filthy rich, just want enough money to not worry about money all the time.

[near ocean]

Yes? How is this relevant to the channel

[lone hemlock]

sorry

[valid geode]

Thankyou!

[nimble minnow]

does anyone know how i can change the discord open window

[gritty rivet]

Are you asking about #discord-bots ? This is #career-advice

[nimble minnow]

no im not asking about bots

[dense mesa]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[fluid patrol]

hi

[vapid jay]

Does PCEP help to get better Python entry level job? https://mydistancetraining.com/courses/pcep-python-mdt-video-course/

[summer roost]

If someone has 2 million dollars invested, they could retire today if they're comfortable assuming their investments will make an average 5% return, and they spend less than 5% of 2 million - 100k - per year.

[true harness]

5% is relatively low too

[near ocean]

S&p has about a 10% return on investment assuming over a large period

2m sounds low for a young person today hoping to start a family

[summer roost]

It's low for stocks, but retired people aim for safer investments, since losing 40% of their portfolio in one year could be catastrophic. Bonds have much less volatility than stocks, and 5% is a reasonable estimate for a portfolio weighted more towards bonds than stocks

[true harness]

true, depends on their age

[summer roost]

Whether your portfolio is weighted more towards stocks or bonds depends on your risk tolerance. People who don't plan to retire for 40 years stick their money mostly in stocks, since over that 40 year horizon they're likely to see that 10% average return. People who are living entirely off the return on their investments will generally prefer a lower risk approach, since any year where the investments make less return than the retiree spends, they've lost earning potential for future years (since they were forced to close positions at a loss to cover the shortfall)

[cloud swan]

Are there any reputable certificated python learning programs which will be useful for a Business student?

[iron estuary]

Nice thanks

[summer roost]

obviously I'm not a financial advisor, so if you're 25 years old and thinking about retiring, you should do your own research or talk to a professional 🙂

[kind oar]

For americans, I think they put it in a fund then do part time gig for healthcare.

Could be easier for people in countries with universal health care

[summer roost]

part time gigs in the US usually don't include health care. When Americans are budgeting for retirement, they usually budget a reasonable amount for health insurance/healthcare expenses, and then hope there's not any catastrophe.

[kind oar]

But personally I think not working at all isn't good (unless for a good reason), volunteering won't cut it.

[kind oar]

For skilled workers they do.

[summer roost]

not in my experience.

most companies don't offer healthcare to employees who work fewer than 30 hours per week.

[kind oar]

I'm pretty sure even groverry stores does that

[summer roost]

they definitely don't

[kind oar]

Grocerry, and I think fedex does ( a friend used to work there in holidays when he was student in the states).

[fierce snow]

Anyone here work at google ?

Or any tech company I am currently 17 years old and was wondering how often do tech company do leetcodes interview now ?

[dense mesa]

A lot

[kind oar]

• i think your government does the healthcare based on income so that is an option too.

[summer roost]

I absolutely assure you that I'm more familiar with what the healthcare situation in the US is than you are.

[kind oar]

You are, but do you work in fedex or whatever? Because i knew someone who did and he got benefits

[ebon sun]

Some schools have data analyst courses, they won't all involve Python though. You could also look at popular and highly rated MOOC courses.

[summer roost]

I don't know about Fedex in particular, but seasonal work often has different benefits than part time work

[kind oar]

Yeah he told me he had old people do it part time for benefits only, they didn't care about the money, and said the same about some grocerry store but I don't remember what is the name.

[summer roost]

if you're still in uni, can you take some computer science courses?

[cloud swan]

thank you.

[cloud swan]

I'm taking a lot of courses

I don't want to take more credits I'm already above my limits

[summer roost]

why would taking a class that doesn't give credits be any better?

[ebon sun]

No problem. I took the Coursera intro to data analysis course and it really helped me with python and pandas, but this was before I started working again. Just working as an analyst has been great for learning more python, but my boss doesn't mind all my goofy little pet projects.

[cloud swan]

I know a bit of python and I want to "prove" it on my CV by a reputable certificate. Since I won't be applying for tech jobs, and only Business related jobs, it is not necessary, but a huge plus to be able to say you know "data analytics" etc - not to just say it but by proving it

[summer roost]

For software dev jobs, no one cares about certs. But, that's for software dev jobs. It could be different for business jobs; they might be more inclined to care about certs. It's reasonable to believe that they might, but I don't know.

[cloud swan]

This is true. But I'm not applying for tech jobs, having a certificate for me is a huge plus! to have it on LinkedIn and CV

If I was going apply for tech jobs, having a certificate is basically useless, like you are already being expected to know the things that you claim that you know you know

Finance Leadership Development Program?

[ebon sun]

Python might not look amazing on your resume working in business but it's great to work with when you're actually working.

[cloud swan]

I couldn't figure out what is the workload for this course. It is coursera btw.

I'm good in Excel, I couldn't find any free certificate programs 😦 but I'd love to get one. Same with Power BI

Honestly, right now in the business world, being able to say that you know coding is super attractive. It shows that you have "analytical thinking capabilities" and you are a "problem solver" it adds up to your prestige by a lot

[summer roost]

will the people who are making hiring decisions have any ability to evaluate the relative value of two Python certs?

[gritty rivet]

I would think having a portfolio of projects does a lot more than a certification to prove any kind of skills where that's possible. Certifications are actually really valuable in IT operations fields like networking or security or desktop support. But when it comes to coding and data analytics skills, you rarely see jobs that want certifications. At least that's true here in the United States, I'm not sure about anywhere else

[summer roost]

regardless of whether she'd be able to use Python at the job or not, she's asking whether a particular cert would be worthwhile (or at least, that was her original question). In response, I'm asking whether the people who would be making hiring decisions have any ability to tell a "good" cert from a "bad" cert

[cloud swan]

Totally agree with you. I'd be more than happy if there are ways to certificate my knowledge or if I am not enough, work for it and earn it.

I noticed that I am good at many things (compared to my peers) specially this past semester, I saw that I am far good than anyone in excel in my cohort. But unfortunately I can not write on my CV "hey, I'm really good in excel, like the best in class".

My point is, I need to make it clear and bold that, I am as good as an 1-2 year experienced employee in Excel. So, they consider this while reviewing me against other applicants.

same goes with python, but not the same reasoning, more for the prestige of "problem solving capabilities"

I just read this 🙂 I'm all ears

I totally get your point.
I am not sure if you got mine 😦

[summer roost]

On this server, you're likely to only find people involved in hiring for tech jobs. You're asking what tech certs might be valued by non-tech hiring managers. I don't know the answer to that question. It's reasonable to believe no one here would.

[cloud swan]

also I would like to add something more.
On the personal level, I am terrible at selling myself.

Please don't factor what I wrote here. I had to justify and make my point. So, having an XYZ certificate will let people like me to communicate their competences like this, since they can't sell it verbally as good as they should.

[cloud swan]

Good point.
I noticed it from the first "certificate doesn't matter" or "do a project instead" feedbacks. 🙂

But I believe YoDaddyM has great points.