career-advice

[smoky quest]

so is python :p

[orchid night]

Python is just OP

[slim night]

if I decide to make this career change, I should describe myself as entry level in Python. Is it ok to mention I'm an expert in VBA? What about my dabbling in C/C++?

Additionally, if I start looking for a coding job in 3 months, do you have an estimate of how long it would take me to get a position?

[summer roost]

I'd avoid describing how much expertise you have with any language. Even saying "expert" for the one you're most good at is risky. I'd list the languages that you're comfortable answering questions about (and coding in during the interview). I'd list them in order from the one that you're most comfortable in to the one that you're least comfortable in.

[slim night]

I see

[near ocean]

What makes an expert in anything really?
Imho the only way you could think of yourself an expert is if you gave expert testimony

[smoky quest]

yeah what jollygeek said

[slim night]

That may be true, but unfortunately I feel like I should use the vernacular on the job posting

[smoky quest]

It is about the depth of questions you are claiming to be able to answer.
If you say you are an expert in X, you better be able to back it up

[near ocean]

Out of personal interest, what makes someone a vba expert? Asking cause i use vba at work

[slim night]

Then you probably have enough information about your abilities to gauge your proficiency

[summer roost]

I'd avoid using words like "expert" because they're entirely subjective. If you say you're an expert in something and then someone asks a question about that thing that you fail to answer, then the interviewer either comes to the conclusion that you're lying about your expertise, or you're wrong about what constitutes expertise. If you get the question right, they aren't impressed, you told them you're an expert, and of course an expert would get the question right.

[smoky quest]

There is also a popular say adopted in sales: "show, don't tell".
You can demonstrate you are an expert by just more than stating it. For instance listing and describing some more complex initiative that you lead

[slim night]

right, but I was thinking along the lines of my resume/cover letter

[maiden bridge]

hello

[orchid night]

are you saying under sell yourself but show more experience that you actually saying

[smoky quest]

I didn't say that at all

[slim night]

Do you mean to list some of the projects I've done on my resume, and if asked in an interview, elaborate?

[modest fractal]

@slim night as someone who hires developers; I would probably throw away a resume that lists vba as an expert skill. Sorry. ❤️

[slim night]

I have not had to do a VBA coding test in any of the interviews I've done since looking for a part time gig

[slim night]

That's fair. What makes an applicant stand out to you?

[modest fractal]

Depends on the job level.

[slim night]

I will be going for entry level Python developer

[modest fractal]

At junior level; looking for ambition and growth opportunity. No personality red flags. Someone who will get along with others and has the aptitude to grow. Juniors are a risk and can sink a team if you hire a bad one.

[smoky quest]

I am thinking more in terms of, and let say for instance backend at scale, the difference between:

• Expert at scaling services at high load and high availability
  VS
• Lead backend services for 500 million users with 99.999% uptime, servicing on average 20,000 req/s

[modest fractal]

^^ the second one for sure.

[smoky quest]

One is saying to trust them, they are an engineer while the other is definitely giving me the impression they are an expert without having to brag

[slim night]

Would the second one be descriptive of an entry level skill though?

[summer roost]

That presumably just means that you don't value VBA programmers, but that's fine. There are lots of jobs that do value VBA developers. A lot of office jobs benefit from small amounts of automation of MS Office, and VBA is useful for that. There's a lot you can do with VBA, AutoHotKey, and Python, for instance.

[modest fractal]

@summer roost 👍

[summer roost]

even beginners can say something concrete about what they have accomplished. As a general rule, you should emphasize listing things you've done over things you've learned on your resume.

[slim night]

And of course, science laboratories that handle a lot of data and need a way to get it off an instrument, into the database, and out to the client

[slim night]

I do try to do that, but I try not to have a Wall of Text

My resume right now is very Analytical Chemist because that's what I've been doing for years

[summer roost]

it's not about the number of words you use, but about what you choose to say.

[slim night]

I know, but I feel like I have to be overly descriptive

[smoky quest]

Not everyone gets the opportunity to work at such high load and reliability. That's multiple times more difficult than your run of the mill app/company

[slim night]

so not an entry-level skill

[smoky quest]

definitely not. And the lead part also indicates they have an impact on the direction and decisions

[slim night]

true

[true harness]

20k requests per second is huuuuuuuuge

[slim night]

One of my goals with Python is to write a script that will check a certain website for me and alert me when an item that has been "coming soon" for months now is finally available. Would that be a good entry level skill?

As it is now, I have to remember to check that company's website every so often, and the item is always still "coming soon"

But if I forget and don't check it for a month or two, the item might be sold out

If I had a script that would check it for me every day, then I could order it right when it becomes available

I was also thinking of ordering a CircuitPython from Adafruit and messing around with that

Because that is how I taught myself C/C++, by messing with Arduinos

[summer roost]

depends how many servers it's spread across 😄

[smoky quest]

That's a good start.
One difference between projects of people trying to get into the field and the ones who already have experience is everything around that.
Such as, how do you know your script is running? what if the machine goes down? How do you maintain a healthy quality and CI/CD...
So to maximize your chances, you could incorporate some of these in your project, to go further than the other candidates

[slim night]

right

CI/CD?

[true harness]

continuous integration / continuous deployment. stuff like linting checks, code quality check, etc that runs when you push code

[slim night]

To check if my script is running, maybe I could have it report back to me whether the item's description has the text "Coming Soon" or not

On [The company site], [the item] is "Coming soon" or "$79.99"

[smoky quest]

• What if it doesn't run. It wouldn't be able to state anything about that
• there are already services and tools like apm/monitoring/observability like new relic, datadog, prometheus, etc.

[slim night]

If it doesn't run, then I will know because it won't report back to me either "Coming Soon" or a price, right?

[smoky quest]

But note we are talking about things for later, once you are done going through the automate the boring stuff book

[smoky quest]

so you would have to check yourself manually?

[slim night]

Probably for a couple of days, yes

And of course a return statement if the website of the company itself is unavailable for some reason

[smoky quest]

what about after? Like in a week

[slim night]

Yes, then every week or so, then leave it alone and let it go if it is working correctly

[smoky quest]

monitoring can solve that and not have you check at all 🙂

[slim night]

Understood, but my goal is to do it the hard way first so I can learn and understand, then when I feel comfortable, use other tools

Like learning calculus in high school: You have to integrate the function using a bunch of summations first, and only after that do you get to use the integrals

[smoky quest]

for learning, I am 200% for that approach. That's how you learn.
In the context of a job interview, the goals would be different and thus that approach would not be satisfactory in this case

[slim night]

oh, for sure

I am not opposed to using toolboxes, I just don't want to right now so that I can learn enough to, in the future, know which tool I will use when the opportunity comes up

[smoky quest]

L-Systems?

This channel is #career-advice and your questions aren't about career.
You would probably be better served by checking out #❓｜how-to-get-help

[vapid jay]

Hi guys, is there offtopic channel

I need an opinion, just got scammed

On discord with fishing site, I 'm note sure how much my PC could be compromised. Could somebody share some thoughts

[dense mesa]

!ot

[inner wren]

Off-topic channel: #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[brittle thorn]

I suggest to make two resumes one for Analytical Chem role (fallback resume) and one for Python Dev Role (resume for desired position). As someone like yourself that was/is an Analytical Chemist for part of my career and a Senior Dev for the bulk of my career you have to tailor your CV. Aim for positions that will leverage both your science background and your coding skills. For example, pharmacetical firms might appreciate some of your chem knowledge as well as your ability to code. Keep a fallback resume handy too you can move back and forth between the fields if you want to or if you need to. (I did)

[brittle thorn]

You can also consider applying to jobs that involve Arduinos...I had one Arduino project myself and it was in a Startup

[brittle thorn]

Be sure to highlight that lol

In the modern laboratory many analytical instruments have computer interfaces and does involve a fair bit of handling data... Some may still think of test tube and beakers (yeah they are still there but the field had moved on to various forms of Spectroscopy etc) so do emphasize that you have done a fair bit of data wrangling and data analysis in your career

[brittle thorn]

Take the leap I have made it across with a background initially similar to yours and the water is fine.

Look for dev roles in the Uni to which your laboratory is attached ...maybe there are and you might even feel less guilt about leaving colleages. I did that route initially then went to dev roles in various software dev firms.

On the plus side you are a known quantity there and it should be easy to do a informal query over lunch or dinner if these job openings exist.

[smoky quest]

I guess it can be summed up to “If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail".
If you focus on only solving a specific scenario, then it's a lot more difficult to adapt to new and novel situations. Not that because you technically can't, but because you lack the foundational knowledge or can't take a step back to see the larger picture.
In terms of very concrete example, I don't have anything super concrete that would not doxx myself too much on top of my head, but if something comes up, I will ping you.

Edit: one example, while not perfect, could be about how numerous times, I have to hold back some self-taught engineers to think about the problem they are trying to solve. They would try to jump to conclusions or just go straight to writing code, prior to identifying the root cause or that they are solving the right and actual problem. That means asking a lot of "Do you think the problem is X, or do you know it is X? What proofs do you have?" to get them to get the data, numbers, graphs, flow of information or dig into it. And then asking them what other solutions they have looked at and why they think Y is the most appropriate approach.

This part is more for once you got a job rather than prior to it. Or at the very least, the type of mentoring I was referring to.
Mentorship is pretty involved and time and energy consuming. So it's not the easiest thing to find. Typically, that would be done with your team lead or manager as a way to coach you. They can be pretty effective since they work closely with you and can give you meaningful feedback. Some larger companies do also have company wide mentorship programs.

With regards to job vs career, you could say it comes down to short term vs long term.

• How do you build expertise? And what kind?
• How do you see yourself in 5-10-15-20 and all the way to 40 years in the future?
• Technologies will change. How will you adapt and stay relevant?
• Most engineers will grow their leadership over time, whether technical or managerial. The ones who do not will plateau. What's your plan? And what steps will you take to ensure you succeed in that plan?

So as a self taught, getting the foot in the door with a job is great, but that's only the first step and there are a few other things to catch up to transform it into a career in which one can thrive.

[smoky quest]

Also to qualify a bit more my messages. They are in the context of silicon valley type of jobs with AI/ML at high scale. So the requirements and expectations may be a bit higher than other jobs in less demanding domains

[ivory sluice]

@smoky quest just want to say i really appreciate all the time you put into contributing here and sharing of your experience :) i think we're all really lucky to have you

[thick juniper]

Thank you. All of that was great, and your example is especially telling. I can already feel in myself that I approach problems not through detailed examination but through piecemeal experimentation. I've been wondering if it's a weakness, though I've also been ignorant about how I would overcome it. Partially it's personality-driven (I'm a dive-in headfirst kinda guy); partially, though, it's I simply don't have the foundations. To extrapolate from an example you gave: I can use a hammer, and I might even understand how the hammer works, but I don't understand why it works.

[thick juniper]

This 💯

[smoky quest]

Don't worry too much about. Just make it a conscious effort to treat all your interactions as if it was from a customer. And whenever you find yourself having to go back to some work, then try to analyze what you could do next time to not go offtrack.

That means trying to understand their problem and what would be the most effective way to go about it.
People don't know what they want, and often times will ask you for what they think is the solution without mentioning the actual problem they want to solve. And that could even come from your manager or pm.

[thick juniper]

Understood. But if I am going to transition into tech (and I am), I want to be excellent. At least, I demand of myself that I be good and useful, but I wish to be as skillful as I can be, and I think I can be quite skillful.

[smoky quest]

Just going through motion of asking the questions and digging into the possible solution will naturally bring the different options and their trade off. Over time you will also start noticing patterns that can be reused

[smoky quest]

that's a great goal!
I may make it sound rough, but it's actually quite fun to grow and learn to expand the horizons beyond just the use of the hammer.

[brittle thorn]

Sadly many graduates dont get this kind of advice even if they have guidance and career officers in uni lol.

[smoky quest]

it comes down to so many factors, including luck.
Sometimes the graduates aren't even mature enough to understand or listen

[thick juniper]

Rough is fine. I wouldn't expect (or even really want) things to be easy. But I know from many experiences how quickly one can lose months (years) in repeating mistakes which could have been corrected by just paying attention, so I'm being quite careful about what I don't understand and where I might improve now. Better to approach it properly as I'm tiptoeing up to middle age than have to correct course a decade from now when I can barely see its entrance behind me.

[smoky quest]

That's completely fair. No point to waste time for no reason.
Note however that perfect is the enemy of good. So do not hesitate to take action when appropriate either.

[thick juniper]

Absolutely! That's one of the most common mistakes. At least that's one of my most common mistakes. 😆

[brittle thorn]

An example of this is somebody who is unaware of the CAP Theorem and is only aware of Relational Databases...they may apply the relational model when a NoSQL db that doesnt fragment the data into tables and reassemble the data to json is appropriate since it is stored as json or a document db

or somebody that thinks that NoSQL is the answer to everything.

There are nuances Consistency , Availability and Partition Tolerance and choose 2 out of three then decide on your database...

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAP_theorem#:~:text=In theoretical computer science%2C the,Availability

[thick juniper]

I'm afraid I didn't really follow that. I've only just started working with JSONs. With luck, in another month I will be able to follow the distinction even if I can't think outside "Relational Databases".

[brittle thorn]

Back to the hammer analogy the database is a tool.. use the right tool .. so expand your toolset and study carpentry so you can also use saws, pliers etc..Carpentry seems to be a great analogy to software dev

[floral elk]

I'm finishing my C.S. degree early next year, which certificates do you guys recommend?

[dense mesa]

Surely your CS degree is a certificate?

[summer roost]

The degree is more highly respected than any certificate. The most useful certs would be certs from AWS or Azure, if you really want certs.

[floral elk]

idk the only reason I'm getting is because HR people don't have the capacity to quantify ability so they rely on bullshit things like degrees and certificates.

[frozen gate]

Yeah, it’s sad how a degree has become the minimum expectation, even for jobs that don’t really require one

[brittle thorn]

Very true

[floral elk]

"People are expected to know 18 languages with 10 years experience and a Bachelors (Masters Preferred) to manage a Wordpress CMS or CRM.
for 24k a year." - HR

[balmy spade]

This seems like an exaggeration. An outliner if true, at best.

[floral elk]

Josh fluke has an entire youtube channel calling these CS jobs out... so... not as uncommon as you'd hope.

[frozen gate]

Tech jobs tended to want experience most often for entry level jobs, while something like retail or hospitality were the most accepting of people with no experience

[buoyant seal]

xD my salary exactly
Only replace wordpress with vue.js Frontend, Django backend and kubernetes for infrastructure

[floral elk]

https://tenor.com/view/that-this-gif-22288923

[buoyant seal]

There is some justification to the low salary though
Just poor local market of my country

[floral elk]

Which country?

[buoyant seal]

Russia

[floral elk]

Lol just find the team that's getting paid to mess with American Elections and you'll make $$$ XD looool

[buoyant seal]

<sarcasm>Very funny</sarcasm>

[frozen gate]

Someone had to write the software for theranos to fake their tests and pretending it was just a loading error instead of the tests not working in reality

[zenith lotus]

What are some good projects to work on before applying for a job?

[smoky quest]

the people reviewing resumes won't be HR.
They could be a trained recruiter and will definitely go through a hiring manager

[idle sierra]

Where do I even start from?

[smoky quest]

#❓｜how-to-get-help <- here?

or is there a specific question?

[molten adder]

Hi Everyone,

I have built my portfolio site using Django & PostgreSQL.

As portfolio site is essential for every software developer to showcase projects & skills and I have built mine from scratch.

Portfolio Website - https://anshuman.me/

I have also open-sourced the development work on my GitHub under MIT License as a contribution to the developer community so that it can be helpful to anyone to build their portfolio site.

GitHub - https://github.com/anshumanpattnaik/my-portfolio

New ideas are always welcome 🙂

Thanks

[vapid jay]

Hi,
I created my own server for my friends
And i would like to do python in that
Is there a specific bot for that?
Or how to do?

[sterile wadi]

use python bot

[cinder bay]

Would you guys recommend a midlance 70/30 model?

[vapid jay]

hi what should i do after learning intermediate python

[sterile vault]

I've accepted the offer of a local company for an internship/part-time work during my Master's degree. I liked the company and it's working in domain I Iike (IT/Cancer). Not US. Non-CS bachelors, a year of freelancing as data analyst/ETL developer.
However, financially it's not really sustainable at 20hr/week. Rent is downright robbery. I've saved up and can manage till summer, but I need to have a plan for next autumn.
Any tips for negotiating compensation in my position? How much I can realistically increase it in 3-6 month timeframe? Beyond the obvious "be a good programmer and meaningfully contribute to the project".
I can always decide not to renew the contract after 3 months and try shopping for a better paid job, but It's a small and highly specific market, so there's like 2-3 local companies I'd consider, and I'm not sure I can get a remote position for that.

[torpid karma]

Ola amigos

[gritty rivet]

This is why even grad students with full assistantships end up taking on so much student loan debt :( Sorry I don't have a solution for you

[sterile vault]

Well, that sucks

[vapid jay]

is learning only python and its frameworks enough to work as a freelancer ?

[gritty rivet]

Potentially, yeah. Look around on platforms like UpWork and Fiverr and you'll see exactly what is in demand

[sterile vault]

You most likely would need at least the basics of SQL, both for backend and data analysis.

[vapid jay]

so python + sql and im good, to at least get many projects in Freelance websites

[solid saddle]

I'm looking for an internship that deals with coding (Python or C++) and FPGA. Does anyone have any suggestions/recommendations where I can find something like this?

[gritty rivet]

In theory, sure. Expect to work hard at it for very little money though when you're first starting out. You're competing with highly experienced developers anywhere in the world

[vapid jay]

u can use the "there is competition" phrase in every field of work

and if there is no competition that means that the demand is low

[gritty rivet]

Yes, but it's a matter of degree and the degree in this context is fairly high. If you're in a place where cost of living is low and you can charge $5/hour or something, you're at a huge advantage

[vapid jay]

if there is alot of competition what i can do is work for less money

[gritty rivet]

Sure, that's the name of the game, if you have the financial ability to go low in exchange for the flexibility, freelancing is a good path for you. Not everyone can afford to do that

It's just something to be aware of

[glossy narwhal]

I want to be a software engineer so which major do I choose in grade 8 if I wanna be a perfect software engineer?

[true harness]

what country? @glossy narwhal

[glossy narwhal]

Bangladesh 🙂

[true harness]

sorry, i don't know enough about bangladesh to help

[glossy narwhal]

Don't you know about the majors in Grade 8?

[true harness]

i have no idea what they are

[dense mesa]

That's a really specific question for a specific country

[gritty rivet]

Nope, me neither. Anything STEM-oriented should be fine but tell us the options if you're still unsure

(that's Science, Technology, Engineering, Math... Not sure if this term is common where you are)

[gilded valley]

For a better idea of what to suggest, how old are you?

[glossy narwhal]

oh ok

[glossy narwhal]

14... 🙂

[glossy narwhal]

We have Science, Arts and Commerce 🙂

[gritty rivet]

Science would be the logical choice if you think you want to go on to study computer science at university. But you can still apply programming to either of those fields if they interest you more

[glossy narwhal]

Okay.

[vapid jay]

Hi

[vapid jay]

@vapid jay what were your questions

yea

[kind oar]

What bear is best?

[vapid jay]

Im a mechanical engineer, i love my degree and in the process of getting a job at a pretty big company but ultimately my career goals 5-10 years from now is to go into programming since I think it has a better future, wondering how easy/hard it is for someone with my degree

i am more than willing to get masters/bootcamp while i work full time

[kind oar]

Not sure about your country, but here in Egypt I see a lot of mech people go into embedded, so might want to check if that interests you.

[vapid jay]

US should have mentioned that, i did do some embedded stuff in C++ in my sophomore year

[kind oar]

by a lot, I mean a lot of the people who want to go into coding, not the general mech people.

[vapid jay]

Don’t want to outright say it’ll be easy but i think you’ll be okay with learning a language and to program while working full time

I already learned C++ before and im now almost finished python crash course

seeing as u got a degree and also a ME i think you’ll be okay in terms of ability, just need to learn bro!

i have 4 years of MATLAB experience, the language sucks but it has a C-like syntax

[vapid jay]

I guess my question is will I NEED a degree in cs/software to get into interviews?

No

I imagine i will have to build a portfolio and a separate resume only for CS, and will probably have to take a junior dev position even after having experience

[vapid jay]

most likely, Sure a degree would maybe help just like in any other position but if u prove yourself in the interviews that goes a long way

nice once i get more comfortable with python ill grind leetcode

i imagine working full time it'll take me 2-3 years to become proficient

[slim night]

I think this is a good idea, but if I make 2 different CVs, my coding one will have a year gap because the lab job I had at the time (the lab job immediately prior to the one I have now) was one in which I did no coding at all as part of my work. During that time, any coding I did was for personal hobby projects during my off hours

[kind oar]

it is more about adapting your resume to the jobs you're applying to.

[vapid jay]

MIT vs Harvard?

[slim night]

This is my plan too, but in 6 months

[vapid jay]

Yea since my financial situation is quite well I am much more comfortable with taking my time lol

[slim night]

Sure do, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gotten the VBA job in an interview last week, but they were concerned about my availability during the work day (CST US). Since I already work in the lab full time, I couldn't commit to meeting with clients about their projects. It was a 12 month contract, but I didn't feel safe saying "yes" and up and quitting my job right now

[vapid jay]

btw @slim night what resources are you using? im only in the beginning of this process lol

[slim night]

I'm very proud for you. I make $18.08/hr and so am really looking to increase my pay substantially by switching careers altogether

[vapid jay]

I wasthinking a backend dev role would be more suitable for someone from an engineering background so that's what im working towards

[slim night]

Yes, same.

[vapid jay]

btw $18/hr is insulting to someone with a degree especially chemistry related

[dense mesa]

<@&831776746206265384>

[slim night]

I have experience coding in VBA and C/C++, and so am learning Python right now using the Automate the Boring Stuff e-book

[slim night]

Believe me, I know 😩

[vapid jay]

Yea I dabbled in online tutorials, concluded that most of them are bad so I grabbed python crash course and algorithm design manual

I wonder if employers would want to see some sort of certification

[slim night]

I haven't looked at those yet; my passion is using code to crush raw data underfoot until it is processed suitably to be submitted to the customer/client
I automated large parts of my job using VBA so I don't have to crunch raw data output from my instruments by hand multiple times a day

[vapid jay]

Nice, having a goal is good lol right now my goal is "learn code"

[slim night]

I found that if you have something you really want to use the code to do, like mess around with Arduinos, it is much easier and more fun because you are doing something you like and motivated to do

[vapid jay]

My only fear is the ATS systems, for mechanical engineering the ATS system trashes your resume if you dont have a bachelor mentioned

[slim night]

I'm not familiar with ATS

[vapid jay]

its the software they use to scan resumes

[slim night]

ugh

[kind oar]

good god buddy, you are something for sure lol

[dense mesa]

Excuse me?

[kind oar]

you're excused.

[dense mesa]

Not really sure what you're getting at, this is for careers discussion

[kind oar]

it is also one message, maybe keep DMing him nagging him to remove it like you did to me.

[tender frost]

Please don't post surveys here, as per our #rules

[edgy flicker]

How much would the average monthly pay for an undergrad proggramer right out of college be?

[dense mesa]

Depends on the location and company

[edgy flicker]

I guess it depends on the company and the hob

[tender frost]

The fact that it's just "one message" doesn't change the fact that it's against our rules, and so should still be reported to us

[tender frost]

What country are you in?

[kind oar]

Yeah I'm just taking this chance to say he's annoying for nagging me on DMs about something he doesn't agree with.

[vast shoal]

If you've got a personal issue, maybe take that up with them in DMs rather than in a topical channel.

[tender frost]

or contact @severe widget if you feel it needs moderative action/attention

[kind oar]

good idea

[edgy flicker]

Jamaica

[tender frost]

Ah, then I can't really help much, sorry 😅

[edgy flicker]

I'm 13, there is no way in hell I'm gonna study here so a scholarship is the goal

[tender frost]

Ik in England it's typically ~20-25k/yr starting salary for programming, and often increases after a year or two if you show your worth

[slim night]

btw @brittle thorn, I feel fortunate to meet someone who has such a similar career arc

[edgy flicker]

Monthly?

[tender frost]

per year. If you want monthly just divide by 12 ig

[kind oar]

if you are 13 then you probably should focus on other things and not think much about the undergrad salaries.

[edgy flicker]

Oh

[tender frost]

And that's in GBP (england's currency), not whatever Jamaica's currency is

[edgy flicker]

Yeah I know, im mainly focusing on learning about WAN optimization and engineering right now, my normal classes are slowing me down tho, im at a steady pace with python tho

Mainly robots, my highschool robotics teacher used to teach college and also used to work on self driving cars at , I think it was apple

[kind oar]

I think you should focus on living your life according to your age, otherwise those engineering/CS classes will slow your natural progression as a kid.

it is good you know what you want and working toward it, but just remember you can always learn more in the future, but you can't get back in time for your teenage age.

[summer roost]

In the US, the typical starting salary for a software developer with a degree is around $8k per month

[edgy flicker]

I'm the eldest of 3 and I'm kinda below middle class , I've natured a bit too far already, im focussing on the main objective right now. No point in doing things kids my age find interesting wen i dont find them interesting.

[kind oar]

well suit yourself, I'm just telling you from experience that you can't go back and be a kid again.

[edgy flicker]

I know

I think its too late for that tho

[summer roost]

If your goal is money, software is a great thing to get into. But I wouldn't worry about a job just yet. Instead I'd focus on learning. Make games, learn new programming languages, dive deep into areas that you find interesting. If you do that, you'll be in a great position when you are ready for university.

[summer roost]

The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is now.

[vast shoal]

If this is something you find interesting and stimulating, there's no reason not to start early. I started programming when I was 12 and I've never regretted it, quite the opposite in fact.

[graceful mason]

I think the average is 24k for an entry position right?

[kind oar]

I'm gonna give you another advice, if you're concerned about money then you should focus on being a well rounded person, otherwise you will burn out, career and life are marathons not a sprint.

[dense mesa]

For UK people graduating with CS, it could go to 30k starting

[kind oar]

were you asking what the salaries are like a decade before you'd have been in the market?

[tender frost]

I mean it really varies. I find you typically don't get more than 25k, and it can go as low as 17-18k

[dense mesa]

Every grad scheme for software I've seen is 30k minimum

[tender frost]

Idrk about grad schemes tbf

[vast shoal]

Not really, why?

[tender frost]

I'm talking at the point where you just finished school so don't have any degrees or anything past level 3 education

[graceful mason]

Internships for me were between 17-24k, I'd be very surprised if at 17k they hired graduates at 30k

[kind oar]

because he is asking about the salaries that he would get once he gets his undergrad, he is 13.

[vast shoal]

Ok, why are you telling me this?

[dense mesa]

Look at any software engineering grad scheme in the UK

[kind oar]

because you asked why.

[summer roost]

For someone who comes from a lower class or lower middle class background, it's totally reasonable to have a life goal of just having enough money that it's no longer the main stressor in life. I wouldn't advise someone who doesn't enjoy software development to pick it up just for the money, but if someone enjoys it and also cares deeply about financial stability, it's a great career choice.

[vast shoal]

I asked why you asked me that question. I still don't get the overall point of your inquiry.

[slim night]

Yes. At $18.08/hr right now, I am ready for a change.

[edgy flicker]

I enjoy everything about tech so I don really care what feild I go into as long as it has to do with technology, the money would be a bonus and I don't wanna be in the position m parents are in rn

[vast shoal]

Sounds like you're going in the right direction then.

[kind oar]

I come from lower/mid class like him, and I agree CS is a good career, I'm just saying he shouldn't think about salaries and all that a decade before he hits the market, a lot of things can change in ten years, especially for what he likes and doesn't.

[summer roost]

I was. I started down the learning path that led to my current career at around 16, based in large part on the promise of six figure salaries.

[gilded valley]

whats wrong with thinking about it? He isn't locked in to anything - trying to proscribe ways of thinking just comes across as arrogant

[true harness]

it's not like software engineering is going to go away

[vast shoal]

If your family is not in a good financial position, it seems like a good idea to think ahead. Just thinking about it doesn't preclude them from enjoying life as a teenager as well.

[kind oar]

because he was saying that the regular school or classes are slowing him down, I was saying that living his teenage as a teenager should be the focus.
he can have these things as hobbies, but not the main thing.

[summer roost]

Did he say that? If so, I missed it

[graceful mason]

Seeing a lot of 24-30k positions

[dense mesa]

Where is this?

[kind oar]

exactly, he should do whatever hobbies he wants and learn about them, but that doesn't mean it is "too late" to enjoy his teenage time, being poor doesn't mean you can't live like a teenager.

[summer roost]

Ah, yes he did.

[vast shoal]

What should be "the main thing"?

[summer roost]

In that case I do agree. Your other classes aren't "slowing you down", @edgy flicker, they're teaching other things that you will need. By all means learn whatever interests you in your free time, but don't detach from the classes that are teaching you things that you're less interested in. They're valuable too, even if it's hard for you to see why right now.

[kind oar]

the reason im saying this is because if he takes this way too seriously, he is bound to burn out, then there is another person who he thinks is worse than him, will bypass him, and that will cause him a great existional crisis, seen it happen many times.

[graceful mason]

Indeed https://uk.indeed.com/m/jobs?q=Software+Developer+Graduate+Scheme

[kind oar]

the fact that he is a teenager.

[vast shoal]

What does that mean in practice?

[dense mesa]

This may be selection bias from your location, I'm looking at London and where I live, everything is 30k+

Software grad schemes pay very well if you've got the credentials

[graceful mason]

Salary is much higher in London though to account for cost of living... Definitely doesn't apply to the rest of the uk

[edgy flicker]

When I said other classes I didn't mean stuff like math or gen.science I ment useless stuff. They literally have u learning about physical education and asking stuff like,"Name this pro footballer" and wanting us to know when all the World cups took place. How would that be useful?

[kind oar]

idk what to tell you buddy lol, but aside from that, do you know billy joel's vienna?

[dense mesa]

I'm completely aware considering I'm applying to both London and somewhere outside of a main city, look at some more places if needed

[summer roost]

Lol, ok, that's weird.

[edgy flicker]

Ikr

[vast shoal]

No. Why?

[summer roost]

But stuff other than STEM is useful. History and world cultures and philosophy and English and other languages, etc, are all useful things that it will benefit you greatly to know, in addition to the math and science stuff.

[summer roost]

Salary tends to correlate with cost of living. Companies located in more expensive places need to pay more for the same role, since the people with that role want the same quality of life.

[kind oar]

then that means you're living in a country that football is a big part in that culture.
if the hiring manger can't relate to you, he might take someone who is less technically skilled than you, and if you can't find a job then your technical knowledge won't help much.

you can have a few quirks and all that, but if you're too different no one would take the time of their day to help you, and no one really succeeds "on his own".

[edgy flicker]

Not really, Jamaica was colonised by the English from the Spaniards . The only reason we care about football and speak English (Uk) is because of them . We haven't really done anything important about football.

[minor oriole]

I am in my 2nd year studying computer science in University of Tennessee. The program is not focused on web development and I want to learn more about web development, I am learning Python on the side by doing projects for my job. I have been looking for bootcamps and I do not like any of them. I looked at MIT xpro and the Trilogy's courses. They are mainly full stack and I cannot believe that a full stack course is going to be beneficial. I want to focus on the front end first then on the backend. Can anyone give me any suggestions or advice?

[edgy flicker]

Ok I understands

[kind oar]

do kids play football a lot in their free time? watch matches? watch world cup? if so then it is important culturally

[edgy flicker]

Yeah they do,I guess you're right

[dense mesa]

Look at The Odin Project, should be good for what you've described

[edgy flicker]

Ok

[balmy mural]

@edgy flicker You should keep your age in mind. At your age a lot of what's being taught is still a way to learn you how to learn. You're 13, physical education is extremely important at your age, whether you like it or not. General history of something that's important in your culture is important as well.

[kind oar]

I'm not saying you should fake interests in stuff, I'm just saying that you should live your life as a teenager normally, becoming a well rounded person is better for your future than you will ever think.

I understand where you're coming from and how annoying it is not to have things as easy as more fortunate people, but it's what it is man.

[edgy flicker]

Ok,I'll keep all of your points in mind. Thank you

[kind oar]

good luck G, hope you reach whatever you're looking for.

[edgy flicker]

Yeah

[summer roost]

I'd focus more on looking for internships than looking for bootcamps, though I do think that a full-stack bootcamp would be plenty beneficial for you.

[summer roost]

By far the easiest way for someone with a degree in a somewhat related field to break into software development is to accept a job at a company that does both things, and try to transfer after some time from a team that does one thing to a team that does the other. Once a company has come to trust you and know that you do good engineering work, they are likely to give you a chance on a team that does software development. And once you've done software development for them for some time, you'll have an easier time getting other software development jobs at other companies if you choose to switch.

if you're still in university, taking some software development classes would help too.

[vapid jay]

graduated recently, I'm interviewing now for aerospace and semiconductor roles at multiple companies

I am planning to do this while working full time on the side, less risky that way

I still love mechanical engineering (at least the jobs i managed to get interviews in), hopefully i wont get stuck in a manufacturing role

[slim night]

Same. I am trying to find a part time coding job while I keep my lab job. Tbh, I haven't been able to find the right fit yet, and I've been looking for ~1.5 months

[vapid jay]

i actually interviewed for a job that ended up just being a lab testing rat job with labview

[slim night]

ugh, it's been literally decades since I last messed with LabView. Wasn't really my thing; maybe it's changed

[vapid jay]

Yea that'd awful, no way im doing that full time

[slim night]

I keep thinking that since my passion is crunching data for scientists, that I should start my own consulting gig, but I have no idea where to even start

[vapid jay]

I wanted to do data science but the market doesn't seem to favor it

[slim night]

really? I've seen quite a few data science type positions on Indeed

or do you mean that they don't pay what you want?

[gritty rivet]

Not my area but a lot of fields right now it seems like data science jobs are both abundant and well paid, but the market is a bit saturated at the entry level

[vapid jay]

oh they pay well, but theres not as many of them

Data science usually requires masters degree as well, so OMSCS i think would set me up well for that

[summer roost]

for someone who has a mechanical engineering degree but has a long term goal of getting into software dev, a company that does a lot of robotics might be the best way to bridge those two worlds. Start off building robots, and try to transition to designing firmware and software for robots, and use that firmware and software experience to break into the wider world of software development.

[minor oriole]

I am looking for something by universities

[minor oriole]

Can I find internships that would be like bootcamp

[smoky quest]

Internships are about helping you discover the professional world, not to train you like a bootcamp/school

[minor oriole]

But I want to learn about coding now, I am not looking into learning about professional world

I am already working full time

[summer roost]

if your goal is to learn frontend development, an internship at a company that does app development or web development will give you both of those things - a view of the professional world, and a chance to learn JS/CSS/HTML

[smoky quest]

Are you a student or are you a working professional?

[minor oriole]

I am working full time and I am studying part time

[smoky quest]

Is your current role related to frontend?

[minor oriole]

No

[minor oriole]

It is hard for me to leave my current job now. So I just want to be able to learn front end through a boot camp (preferably from a university)

[smoky quest]

There aren't 42 ways to go about it:

• Learn and practice on your own
• Use school projects as an opportunity to practice
• Have internships/job as opportunities to practice
• pay someone to teach you

[minor oriole]

If I learn on my own, I will not be able to use that to get a job.

[smoky quest]

Note that from an employer's perspective, any bootcamp cert would mean shit comparing to your degree

[smoky quest]

Aren't you a part time student drivnig towards a degree like a BS/ms?

[minor oriole]

Even an MIT or Harvard cert?

[smoky quest]

yes. And Same thing if you happen to live in the same zip code or know a friend of a friend studying there

[minor oriole]

Yes. But I do not want to be in the typical path

[smoky quest]

Which path do you want to be in?

[summer roost]

employers don't care about certs at all, with the possible exception of certs for cloud stuff.

[minor oriole]

Web development

[smoky quest]

how is it not typical?

[summer roost]

I think web development is the most common path. I suspect there are more web developers than any other single type of developer.

[gilded valley]

"web dev" is pretty all encompassing at this point, it seems to cover everything from Java developers working exclusively on Springboot backends, to people spinning up quick Flask full stack apps, to people working exclusively with JS

[vapid jay]

I was thinking of learning backend dev, is there any preference between node/express vs django?

[minor oriole]

My program at University Of Tennessee is not web development https://catalog.utk.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=22&poid=9237.

[gilded valley]

pretty much the entire enterprise software world is oriented around REST apis at this point

[smoky quest]

Doesn't matter. Pick one you enjoy.
If a company uses something different, you can pick the others quickly

[vapid jay]

I am not a CS degree though, im new to programming

[smoky quest]

webdev has a strong emphasis towards web frontend.
There can be backend without frontend

[vapid jay]

so i'd like to konw which one is best/easiest ot adapt to (i learned C++ in college)

[smoky quest]

python is friendlier to begineers.
Javascript could be used in both backend/frontend

[gilded valley]

I would disagree that Python is friendlier to beginners. I think there's no material difference in the relative friendliness

[vapid jay]

I am almost finished python crash course i should mention

[summer roost]

CS degrees don't teach software development at all, they teach computer science. Employers who want to hire software developers hire CS graduates and then teach them software development.

[minor oriole]

This is what I want to do. I want to learn software development beforehand

[summer roost]

you can if you want to, but as I said, employers will value the CS degree more than any software development cert you have.

the biggest reason to learn the software development side before graduating with the CS degree is to learn what types of work you do and don't enjoy.

[vapid jay]

As a mech eng you think i should go the OMSCS route? its quite cheap for me @summer roost

[smoky quest]

I was more thinking in terms of quirks of the language. But I don't want to get into a language war and that's more of a personal opinion than anything

[minor oriole]

Also, there are some projects that I have at work that I want to do that involves web development.

[smoky quest]

then you can continue on that

[smoky quest]

There are two kinds:

• the code monkey hired at low wage and low responsibility to piss code. They aren't paid to think or grow
• the software engineers who are solving problems, not just pissing code

Focusing purely on webdev at the expense at the rest will put you in the first category

[vapid jay]

I still kinda want to have a CS degree on my belt so that I can have some theoretical background

[minor oriole]

I understand

[minor oriole]

Have you studied CS?

[smoky quest]

yes

[vapid jay]

@smoky quest can one become the second kind without a bachelors in CS? lol

[minor oriole]

I really want to take a web development course, but I am having a lot of question marks. I ask the course advisors and they say that they rarely have college students!

[vapid jay]

Do the CS degree, its not just about knowing a language

[minor oriole]

But at the same time I don't know why I would not start building my experience with the front end and back end

[vapid jay]

for example in the mechanical engineering world (my background) the people who learn CAD without a degree are not paid NEARLY the same as a bachelor degree

the SWE world is not nearly as restrictive but its the same idea

[smoky quest]

Check my messages from yesterday. there was the same question. But the tl;dr is yes, you just have to work harder to catch up

[minor oriole]

Eventually, I am not looking to work for someone. I want to build my own business. I

[smoky quest]

Starting and managing a business requires a different set of skills. Not everyone want or can handle that. But that's a great goal to have

[minor oriole]

That's why I am busting my butt, working full time and studying

Let me ask you this, if you were to take a course for web development (front end) which course would you take @smoky quest @summer roost

[gilded valley]

how is working full time a step towards building your own business?

[minor oriole]

I am getting experience. I am still 21

[smoky quest]

tbh, I wouldn't spend money on that. It's not a complicated skill to acquire and something easy to pick on your own.
If anything I would pick more classes on communication, sales, marketing, accounting, business law...

[summer roost]

I don't know anything about that program in particular, but if the degree you get at the end of it is a real MS CS degree from GTech, it could definitely be very worthwhile.

[vapid jay]

yea its a masters of science degree

theres a bunch of other copycat online masters of CS programs, GTech is just the oldest one

[smoky quest]

the main thing is to get the official ms at the end

[vapid jay]

yea, i will ahve a lot to prepare before I do that, and ill be doing that part time

since ill be working ofc, hopefully it wont be too hard but it is a real masters of science

i always knew i wanted a masters of science, just recently i realized that i want to do it in CS

the program is cheaper than most bootcamps too

[summer roost]

because college students don't need the course, because they can get software development jobs without it. Most people don't try to go down both the high effort / high skill / high pay path and the low effort / low skill / low pay path simultaneously.

[slim night]

I just looked at the GA Tech online MS CS website. It says you can complete in 12 months?

Is this something I should seriously consider if I want to do database or data processing work? Or would it be a waste of time and money because I already have so much experience?
Remember that I currently make <$19/hr

[vapid jay]

Personally I am planning to do OMSCS part time and take 18-24 months to finish, but the program is insanely cheap, OMSCS is cheaper than most bootcamps and you get a MS degree from an elite school

[smoky quest]

that seems a bit short in 12months. But if it's the real thing and they have a good program, why not

[vapid jay]

with a STEM degree and CS masters thats a good candidate for a data science job

[vapid jay]

OMSCS requires 10 courses btw and it says 5 semesters on their website, pretty standard for an MS degree

[slim night]

Yeah..... I already have an MSc in Physics and my BSc in Physics has a math minor, I'm not sure I want to plunge into even more school

[vapid jay]

OMSCS is a program that assumes you are working full time, most of the people there are old with kids

[slim night]

I feel like I already have the degrees to show I can follow through with something, and I already have the coding experience to show I can do data crunching

[sterile vault]

I can't understand the appeal of online masters. I mean - you shell out money for networking with peers and mentoring from teachers, and i feel online masters is basically a fancy Coursera.

[vapid jay]

a real masters of science degree from GTech for 7k

its a good deal, many SW jobs are online anyway

[slim night]

Please don't take this the wrong way: How "seriously" is an online MS taken? By employers, I mean

I'm old enough to remember the ITT Tech scams

[frozen gate]

It doesn’t say online when you finish the degree and put it on LinkedIn, and on campus MSCS people apparently take the same classes

[balmy spade]

As seriously as a regular MS here in the states.

[vapid jay]

OMSCS is a nationally recognized program, and was praised by the president of the US when it was launched

[frozen gate]

They can afford to price it relatively cheaply because of the online aspect

[smoky quest]

There are a lot more topics to catch up on to be successful.
Trying to skip steps just for the sake of the degree may set up you up for failure later on

[sterile vault]

Hey, we live in the age of Tech scams. Youtubers shilling for bootcamps taught by grads of the very same bootcamp.

[vapid jay]

GTech is cheaper than bootcamps and gives you a degree

[summer roost]

As long as the thing that you get at the end of the program is a real MS from an accredited institution, employers wouldn't even know that it was online. Your resume would just say "Masters of Science in Computer Science, Georgia Tech"

[slim night]

I'm not sure I follow. What steps do you mean?

[vapid jay]

personally i am more willing to dish out 7k for a degree

[sterile vault]

BTW, how US/Canada empoyers value foreign, non-US, non-EU degrees?

[frozen gate]

I think there’s a few legit boot camps out there but a ton like to inflate their employment rate when they hire ex students for tutoring jobs

[smoky quest]

The goal if you were to go for a ms in cs wouldn't be to show you can follow along, but acquire missing skills and knowledge in cs

[vapid jay]

https://omscs.gatech.edu/ <-- there it is

[slim night]

Yes, Master of Science. Sometimes written as "MSc"

[vapid jay]

you do need a good GPA

[slim night]

Missing skills like what?
I took CS in my physics undergrad

[vapid jay]

i believe its 60% acceptance rate

[sterile vault]

It's just I'm getting a local Masters and wonder If I would be able to be considered along grads from schools in more prestigious countried. Not formally, but informally.

[slim night]

I graduated Cum Laude for both my undergrad degrees (physics and chemistry)

[smoky quest]

Not sure how far you went into CS, but that could include, systems, networking, crypto, algos, databases...

[vapid jay]

I missed cum laude by 0.02 😦

[slim night]

yeah, I feel like I only care about databases from the list you gave

[vapid jay]

my university had it at 3.72 and i got 3.7 😦 still enough for GTech though

[smoky quest]

If you want to get into DS/ML, you should care about the rest...

[slim night]

I missed Summa Cum Laude by 0.02 💀 My physics undergrad GPA was 3.73 I think. And that's with an Honors degree and math minor

[vapid jay]

@slim night with an MS in CS employers will fight for you in data science

you have good credentials, OMSCS can be taken part time

[sterile vault]

Come on, I don't think DS needs crypto.
Stats and discrete math, on the other hand...

[slim night]

I hear you, but I don't want to learn about networks, cryptocurrencies, etc

[sterile vault]

Crypto is cryptography, btw. Stuff like encryption algos, for example.

[vapid jay]

https://omscs.gatech.edu/current-courses

[slim night]

ohhhh thanks for clarifying

[smoky quest]

It does matter as foundational knowledge and in the context of privacy preserving ml. Again, code monkey vs problem solver

[vapid jay]

i believe they have 3-4 mandatory courses and 5-6 to choose form, plently of options

[frozen gate]

I think some places offer a masters in data science nowadays but I dunno how credible they are

[vapid jay]

OMSCS requires you to take a specialization, and data science is one of them

[slim night]

Is this a coursework masters, or is a thesis required?

[vapid jay]

coursework masters

[slim night]

good

[vapid jay]

Illinoi has a similar program too https://cs.illinois.edu/academics/graduate/professional-mcs/online-master-computer-science-data-science

[sterile vault]

Well, the stereotypical DS is a guy who barely manages not to screw up the code in Jupyter notebook, but can make a fancy math trick to treat 5d data as 7d and raise AUC by 0.2 by doing it.

[slim night]

I don't know if I do. I feel like I'd need to learn more about those to decide

[vapid jay]

theres many stories of "i never went to college and i got a job as a software engineer" you can always go that route

[smoky quest]

That's kind of my point. You don't know yet what you need to know. There is a reason these things are in the program

[vapid jay]

you have a BS and MS with a high GPA, most employers understand that and value that

[smoky quest]

It's like saying, you could always start your own startup and get a billion dollars

[slim night]

I feel like "need" is a strong word for me right now, but I see what you mean

[vapid jay]

True but applying to 1000+ jobs, grinding leetcode and failing interviews until you make it isn't as risky

[sterile vault]

Uh, self-taught developers are a bit more frequent than unicorn startups

[vapid jay]

having a STEM related masters degree is very valuable, its not like he studied fine arts

[smoky quest]

yeah, risk profile is certainly different, but for each person you hear succeeding, you still have many more failing at that

[slim night]

Yeah, I feel like having the degrees I do should show something about me XD

[vapid jay]

Yea I agree, Personally im going the MS route

[smoky quest]

also be aware of the demographic of the channel.
You can see plenty of HS kids trying to find an easy way out of college and thinking they can get as much by skipping post-hs education

[frozen gate]

You’re so underpaid for having a Msc in a science field

[sterile vault]

Looking at US education costs, I can't exactly blame them

[vapid jay]

Yea this is insane, i was paid $15 for my part time retail job in college

[slim night]

If the HS kids are in the US, it's because structural changes in the country over the last 40+ years have made going to college prohibitively expensive for a lot of people

[vapid jay]

i have 10 interviews for jobs as a mechanical engineer next week, not one of them is below $35/hr

[slim night]

Tell me about it 😒

[vapid jay]

actually one of them is $30/hr

[smoky quest]

I totally get it and totally hear it.
That said, the return on investment in CS are still very much worth it, discounting the value of having an education

[vapid jay]

bro 7k on a degree that can net you 150k+ a year is worth it, DS and ML people earn a lot

[slim night]

Agreed, which is why I am seriously thinking about switching

[vapid jay]

send out your resume to as many companies as you can find

[sterile vault]

I wish I had these options with biology bachelors. "Get back to us a PhD and we'll pay you somewhat more than McDonalds".
It was an interesting feeling when even the shittiest code was much more profitable than night shifts in a lab.

[slim night]

Doing that now

[vapid jay]

you can easily get paid more, you deserve at least $75k a year

[ivory sluice]

the hs kids that come here asking whether college or degrees are necessary are asking because they don't have the ability to see long-term, and are only seeing the immediate expenses. they also come to ask/confirm whether employers consider them as requirements.

[vapid jay]

do not accept any offer below $70k, dont let them lowball you, you can easily find an R&D process/materials engineering job while you are working on becoming a software dev

[frozen gate]

Biology needs further schooling like medical school to start making money, but at only a bachelors your options are limited

[summer roost]

It's possible, but unlikely. The overwhelming majority of software engineers have college degrees.

[frozen gate]

Now, when you say that do you mean any college degree or just CS degrees?

[sterile vault]

Yeah, compared to that CS is easy mode. Can hold a keyboard in a right way? Welcome aboard!\

[vapid jay]

between 15-30% dont have degrees according to surveys

[smoky quest]

I only see CS degrees from my side

[slim night]

Maybe, but a big structural reason people are hesitant about going into massive debt for college right now in the US is that for decades, we were told college is/was a good investment, but then people graduate and can't find good paying jobs

[vapid jay]

that's still WAY higher than other stem fields

but you really have to be an overperformer for that to happen

[ivory sluice]

it's overall a nuanced topic, but not for the kids coming into this specific channel

[frozen gate]

Plus due to the pandemic you’re missing out on the college experience of socializing and stuff, zoom university, and people don’t want further debt when they can start making money now

[sterile vault]

I can't imagine a self-taught chemist. Even the guy from Breaking Bad had college degree.

[vapid jay]

These days the only difference between online school and in person school is the price tag, most professors don't want to teach in person anymore.

[frozen gate]

But you write some bad code nothing majorly life threatening is going to happen

[slim night]

As an introvert, I never did the social thing in college anyway

[summer roost]

The ones who don't are generally older, and predate CS degrees being commonly available. If you filter that down to software engineers in their 20s only, I'd expect >95% have degrees.

[vapid jay]

That's true, I hope an MS is good enough lol

[sterile vault]

I think there was a x-ray machine that basically nuked people because of software bug. Embedded is scary.

[smoky quest]

a ms will give you a leg up

[vapid jay]

wont the BS people still have advantage over me?

[frozen gate]

I don’t think you can break into embedded without a CS degree anyway

[summer roost]

Therac-25

[vapid jay]

i will probably have to apply to data science roles

[smoky quest]

why would they?
The MS demonstrates deeper understanding and broader skills. If anything, you would be counted as with more experience and a higher initial compensation

[summer roost]

no, you will have an advantage over them. 2 degrees is better than 1, and a more advanced degree is better than a less advanced degree.

[vapid jay]

True

[sterile vault]

Well, it's much harder than, say, webdev, because you probably need access to a ton of different hardware. But I imagine a hobbyist who solders and programs microcontrollers on a regular can give a CS grad a run for their money.

[vapid jay]

how hard it is working full time and taking masters level courses? OMSCS restricts you to only taking 2 classes per semester

[slim night]

I sure as hell hope that's the case

[smoky quest]

I know someone who had to pay it with his marriage

[vapid jay]

worst case scenerio i take 1 class per semester including summer, this means i would need 2.5 years to complete.

[summer roost]

I know people who've done it, it's possible.

[summer roost]

ooh, I can imagine doing it while married would be much tougher.

[vapid jay]

actually 3.5 years

[slim night]

I have joint custody of 2 kids (8 and 11) and work a full time job.... I can barely get the laundry folded as it is now

[sterile vault]

It's hard. I'm enrolled in a degree and it's around 15-20 hours on classes alone. At least 30 if you count homework. Plus extra work for your master's thesis.
Full-time work is 40 on top of that. I'm not sure I will be able to manage 20.

[vapid jay]

ah luckily OMSCS has no thesis

[sterile vault]

TBH when I did my bachelor's the final thesis was only worthwhile thing.

All other courses was "just pass them", and thesis involved actually going in-depth in a given topic + directly working with your scientific advisor.

[sterile vault]

But why the spouse couldn't work and support him through education? /s

[smoky quest]

Maybe they tried and couldn't make it work?
It's not like I am was prying into their personal life

[cyan sequoia]

hey guys can you still make a lot of money with programming even without a degree?

[smoky quest]

unlikely. college is still the main way

[cyan sequoia]

oh :/

[sterile vault]

Yeah, real life is messy and it's not very considerate to speculate about that

[smoky quest]

it's fun though. College is very different from HS

[cyan sequoia]

im already in college for something else so i cant thats why

[smoky quest]

if your goal is to get a career in CS, then it may make sense to align your degree with that? Why go to college in an unrelated career then?

[sterile vault]

How much is "a lot"? I think you can get 40$ hourly without a degree with some experience. More? Either college or some very specific skills.

[cyan sequoia]

yea $40 i guess is what i mean roughly thats 78k annually

[frozen gate]

There are successful self taught and boot campers out there but you could also get a post bacc/masters

[sterile vault]

Well, I'm talking about freelance rates, and it's feast or famine.

[cyan sequoia]

im very new to this all and idk anything @sterile vault is salary based off what language(s) you know?

[smoky quest]

your clients would care about solution, not which language you use.

With a degree, you could make multiple of that

• not on your first year

[sterile vault]

Well, experience usually trumps the tech stack. A bad PHP dev is probably getting less than bad Scala dev, but a good one would still make dosh regardless.

[cyan sequoia]

yea i wont be able to get a degree in it nor do i really want to im already getting a degree in something else, this would be more as a side thing i guess but im just trying to figure out if i could still make some decent money from it or not if i put in time to self teach myself over a few years or something

[smoky quest]

Also note that if you charge your clients 40$/h, you also have to deduct costs like health insurance, retirements, taxes, equipment, insurances...

[sterile vault]

And clients def care which language you use. I wouldn't try to sell a Python solution to a guy who's wants embedded. Or anything resemblind real-time. Or frontend. Or android app....

[smoky quest]

that would be proposing the wrong solutions

[cyan sequoia]

how about working for an employer? hows that

[sterile vault]

I'm switching from freelance to employment because working without mentor is stressful and sucks.

[smoky quest]

I get > 100 applicants per jobs. 99.5% of them have a cs degree with excellent or relevant experience.
How do you compete with that?

[slim night]

this seems like the situation I'm in right now (but with degrees already)

[cyan sequoia]

:/ i guess i dont compete

[smoky quest]

It's statistics. It doesn't mean it' s impossible, but it's gonna be like extreme hardcore level of difficulty

[cyan sequoia]

do you think experience matters more or the degree? like for a worst case hows starting off for free at an internship, or really low salary like 40k 50k and working from there?

[sterile vault]

And yeah, self-employment is HIGHLY dependent on area and local laws for say, medicine. In my country medicine is not as tightly coupled to employer as in US.

[smoky quest]

Experience matters more once you have a few years under your belt. The problem is how to get these first few years.
With regards to working for free/low pay, there is such a thing as negative returns. If I hire you for free, you may take the time away from the other engineers in a team due to your mistakes and required intensive training and mentorship

[cyan sequoia]

ah

in what ways would someone like me have to compensate then for not having a degree? being really well self taught?

[summer roost]

Someone without a college degree will have a massive disadvantage getting their first industry job relative to someone with one.

[smoky quest]

I am sure some less demanding companies may still hire you at such low cost, but you may not get the kind of experience you are looking for

[sterile vault]

Non-cs grads can stand out with domain knowledge, btw. For example I'd imagine a firm making CAD sofware or doing automotive would consider engineer with CS skills more than just a programmer.

[dense mesa]

What are you looking for?

[cyan sequoia]

yeah im doing civil engineering as my degree so maybe somehow i could tie that in with programming but idk

[minor oriole]

Front end development course

[summer roost]

that seems like the type of engineering that has the least overlap with programming.

[cyan sequoia]

yea... thats true

[frozen gate]

Out of most common degrees for programmers to have, CS was first (obviously), next was engineering, and third was information systems/information tech

[smoky quest]

fyi, I forgot to mention that, but if I see a resume from someone with a CS degree who follows up with some bootcamps, I would have questions. That would send the wrong kind of signal

[cyan sequoia]

is part time common for programming? because i kinda want to do it as a side hustle perhaps or do employers want full time folks

[summer roost]

the engineering degrees that they'd have are most likely to be ECE or EE, though.

[minor oriole]

Why?

[slim night]

I have been finding it very difficult to get a part time programming position. I have been searching for about a month and a half

[cyan sequoia]

oh :/

[smoky quest]

because something would be wrong with you.
It's like someone having won the national championship talking about how they participated in the local tournament of their city.
It means your degree was bogus, or something happened or you weren't good enough or you are making up some parts in your degree

[summer roost]

it's quite uncommon to have part time jobs for employers. It's a bit more common to freelance.

[sterile vault]

It's possible, but it's usually internships. Aka - pay sucks. Anyone who was willing to pay better wanted a full-time worker.

[cyan sequoia]

hmmmmm thats a tough spot then

[dense mesa]

The Odin Project is a great resource for that, why does it have to be by universities?

[slim night]

Should freelance experience be included on a CV?

[sterile vault]

And that applies to freelance, btw. You may be able to negotiate that, but it's either odd jobs for 5-10 hours a week or basically full-time contracting. Very few will be able or willing to give you stable 20hrs.

[smoky quest]

you don't hire and invest the same ways in a full time or part time worker

[minor oriole]

My thought was that I can use it as a plus when I apply for a job

[cyan sequoia]

can you guys comment at all about how the work side of programming is? compared to just doing it recreationally?

[slim night]

This is a very good question. I am interested in the answer as well

[summer roost]

saying that you know JS/HTML/CSS would be a plus. Having a bootcamp on the resume, concurrent with your education, does not seem like a plus.

[sterile vault]

Well, it's NOT recreational 🙂

[minor oriole]

I am so glad that I am hearing this feedback @summer roost & @smoky quest

[dense mesa]

If you follow TOP, you get website projects. It doesn't matter who the information came from, as long as your projects are good

[vapid jay]

this is why you do the shotgun method

[smoky quest]

Most people in your case would pick up a udemy class if they wanted to get it done faster and then put some projects on their resume. But the CS degree will already demonstrate you have the basis and the project will show that you are able to ramp up quickly

[cyan sequoia]

whats that @vapid jay

[vapid jay]

if you send 3 applications per day, your chances are slim. If you turn on easy apply and send 200 applications per day, you will find something eventually

[cyan sequoia]

is there any way for people without degrees to compete if they are self taught , or compete with a fair chance i mean

[vapid jay]

yes, thousands of applications

[cyan sequoia]

just mass applications you think is the best way?

[smoky quest]

You are asking how can someone compete as equal with someone else who has spent 3-5 years full time learning and practicing on a subject.
The answer is to catch up and demonstrate your skills

[vapid jay]

yup, you have no degree thats the only thing you can do. You will not get a job at a FAANG company w/o experience or degree

[cyan sequoia]

not even fang , just even 60-80k to start off

[minor oriole]

Since you have a CS degree, have you ever checked UT's CS program: https://catalog.utk.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=22&poid=9237 and what do you think about it

[vapid jay]

if you apply to enough companies you'll find something

[smoky quest]

I did not get it in the USA :p

[sterile vault]

The biggest difference between coding for money and coding for fun is people interactions. You can spend A LOT of time trying to understand the mess of data and logic the client wants you to do. Oh, and deadlines are a thing. You can't say "I'll do it a week later, I want to relax". So sometimes you work when you're not at your most productive.

[minor oriole]

Oh where?

[cyan sequoia]

thank you @sterile vault

[smoky quest]

somewhere in Europe

[vapid jay]

also, networking. My brother has like 10 lifetime friends in CS so im lucky

if you dont have any real connections to people in the industry, well.. good luck. 80% of jobs arent posted online

[cyan sequoia]

im just trying to get my foot in the door to the programming world, idk anything basic if statements at best but i just wonder if ill have a chance out there and i guess thats a bit discouraging for now

[vapid jay]

you will if you put the time into it 🙂

[smoky quest]

Think about the opposite. Me who knows nothing about civil engineering, how could I compete fairly with new grads in civil engineering?

[slim night]

So much this. When I was writing a VBA macro to process the data from our lab's pH machine, my manager changed her mind from one thing, to another thing, back to the first thing, at least twice.

[vapid jay]

its different though, civil engineers REQUIRE a PE license and degree

[cyan sequoia]

just work harder and put in more time in any other way yeah @smoky quest

[vapid jay]

you have no way to compete, you must get a PE license

[smoky quest]

Am just trying to get a point across, not necessarily to be technically correct :p

[sterile vault]

Lol. Did she ask why it took you so long to do that afterwards?

[summer roost]

I'm a bit confused - do you want to be a civil engineer or a software developer?

[cyan sequoia]

yeah thats the thing about programming which is what interests me , is that 'technically' anyone can do it right? its not like engineering where theres much more to it

[vapid jay]

true but SWE is a booming role, companies are DESPARATE for employees and are willing to hire engineers from all fields

[smoky quest]

that also proves my point I know nothing about civil engineering 😉

[slim night]

No, but she did get angry at me for doing what she wanted, then when I presented her with the macro, she had in the meantime changed her mind and wanted to know why it wasn't the way she wanted it

[vapid jay]

there is no risk to software, a civil engineer with no license kills.

[summer roost]

I know someone working as a civil engineer without a PE license, FWIW.

[cyan sequoia]

@summer roost civil engineer primarily i just want to do something as a side hustle i guess and maybe eventually make some money out of it so thats where programming would come in

[smoky quest]

Also to be fair, the title of "software engineer" does require a specific degree delivered by specific schools in some countries. Like other engineering fields

[frozen gate]

Maybe they think they’re in too deep at CivE and don’t want to incur more debt to switch or they can’t switch into CS at their school, like the CS program’s terrible or too competitive to get in

[vapid jay]

people died because of bad civil engineering, in the US companies hire literally anyone who knows how to code

[cyan sequoia]

^ thats what im hoping on

[smoky quest]

It depends on the domain. Some software coudl definitely crash markets or kill people or companies

[summer roost]

people have died because of bad coding, too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25

[vapid jay]

just know that its probably won't be a FAANG

[summer roost]

but the career you want is civil engineering, not programming?

[vapid jay]

do you have a civil bachelor? im a fellow mech eng bachelor 😄

[smoky quest]

I have some friends working on the triple redundant hardware/software in airplanes. They don't like flying anymore

[vapid jay]

after learning aerodynamics and how airplane design work i dont want to fly either

[cyan sequoia]

im doing my bachelor in civil rn yeah i want a career in civil but i see programming as a great opportunity potentially so if i can id like to capitalize on that by i guess firstly working part time and just doing it as a side hustle and then see how that goes and go from there @summer roost

[vapid jay]

what year are you?

[slim night]

same

[cyan sequoia]

2nd year

[summer roost]

if you just want it as a side hustle, you'd be looking at freelancing on platforms like fiverr or upwork.

[vapid jay]

software has a job growth of 30% in the next 10 years

[summer roost]

but really, if you're interested in programming and want to do it professionally, I'm confused why you wouldn't just switch majors now while it's easy for you to do so.

[vapid jay]

companies are getting more and more desperate for software developers, i highly suggest you just switch

[cyan sequoia]

im only 19 too will it get harder or easier you think over time ? because its certianly getting more popular but that would mean more applicants too with degrees

[slim night]

same

[vapid jay]

I discovered my love for programming in my sophomore year of mechanical engineering and i didnt switch, don't makle my mistake.

you probably took some math classes required and some gen eds, at worst its an additional 2 semesters

[summer roost]

more people are getting the degree, but the software field is expanding, too.

[smoky quest]

While the number of entrants is getting larger, so do the market and number of jobs

[vapid jay]

software is becoming more and more complicated, a degree is invaluable

[cyan sequoia]

im in a weird spot thou, ive never liked programming before mostly cuz i was bad at it so i was never interested in it but im being more open minded to it and giving it a chance if i can , the primary reason being the money behind it tbh

[summer roost]

if you think you want to code professionally, it will never be cheaper or more practical for you to switch directions and pursue it than it is right now.

[sterile vault]

Guys, I have a great idea. A startup for CS grads who can't code their way out of paper bag and for programmers without degrees. CS grads applies to jobs, where the other guy actually works. They split the sweet FAANG dosh.

[vapid jay]

its not going to become simpler in 20 years

[smoky quest]

people doing it for the money don't last long

[summer roost]

oh. Don't chase a job just for money. It pays well, but it doesn't pay well enough to hate the work you're doing.

[dense mesa]

In the UK it's illegal to work without one

[vapid jay]

its illegal in most US states

[summer roost]

in the US it isn't, but you need senior engineers with PE signing off on all your work.

[slim night]

yep

[vapid jay]

there are states where its illegal

[cyan sequoia]

@summer roost would 4 years of experience be valued more to an employer or 4 years getting a degree

[vapid jay]

idk if most actually but some

[summer roost]

she doesn't work in one of those. 🤷

[dense mesa]

Probably a degree

[summer roost]

what kind of experience?

[vapid jay]

you get a degree to teach you how to learn

[smoky quest]

years of cs education >>>> years of cs xp

[sterile vault]

In medicine to even confirm you have an existing degree from another country, you need several thousand dollars.

[cyan sequoia]

welp thats an issue then lol

[vapid jay]

you don't get a degree as "job training" you are being taught how to think and learn in the field in which you are studying

[cyan sequoia]

i was hoping the experience at any job for the same amount of years as the education would atleast look decent to compensate

[smoky quest]

Also there was a statistic yesterday about how in EU, 1year of school is roughly an additional 10% additional income throughout your career

[vapid jay]

a CS degree wont train you for a job, it will train you how to think and how to learn programming

[summer roost]

if someone has worked in a similar role to the one I'm hiring, at a similar company to the one I'm hiring for, that matters more to me than a degree. But if we're comparing 4 years of getting a degree versus 4 years of doing small personal projects and maybe occasional freelancing, the degree is much more valuable.

[vapid jay]

you can always do post baac or masters if you don't want to switch now

[cyan sequoia]

you can just do masters in cs?

[sterile vault]

What's the difference of thinking between CS and non-CS grad?

[vapid jay]

yea its quite popular

[cyan sequoia]

oh thats nice i didnt know that

[summer roost]

at any job? Even a totally unrelated job? Like, 4 years of working as an animator for video games, or something?

[vapid jay]

i mean

personal projects are better than nothing lol if he applies to enough companies he'll find a job

[cyan sequoia]

hmmmm @summer roost 4 years at a job where some/any employer would hire someone whos self taught and wants to get their foot in the door probably low pay im sure but hopefully the experience would mean something ?

[smoky quest]

#career-advice message

[vapid jay]

The US market is desperate for programmers and the "learn to code" meme exists for a reason

[cyan sequoia]

again im just thinking ive never really liked programming at all but im giving it a chance now im just trying to figure out what i can do on the side while im still focusing on my other career

[summer roost]

perhaps, but at that point you're several years behind someone who just got the CS degree.

[slim night]

full time programmers, it seems

[cyan sequoia]

@vapid jay 2yrs masters and then that should look pretty good to an employer yea? atleast its some education

[vapid jay]

btw @smoky quest the reason why you cant get a job as a civil engineer or mechanical engineer with no degree is because these markets don't have a 30% job growth

[smoky quest]

the first step would be then to learn more about it, and do some stuff for fun to see how you like it and how it feels and to ignore the job/career/$$ for now

[near ocean]

Masters in cs are not as important or desirable as BScs

[vapid jay]

but if you have no BS? better than nothing

[sterile vault]

Ah, thanks!

[cyan sequoia]

well im thinking again since i want it to be on the side for now if i can just use the time i have to my advantage and over time get enough experience since im only 19, even if i can get 3-4 years job experience by 25 or 30 thats better than nothing should be enough to get a decent job id hope

[summer roost]

most software jobs require significant training. A company hiring a junior software engineer usually doesn't expect them to start making positive contributions for around 6 months or so.

[smoky quest]

I have the complete opposite experience for anything above code monkey though

[near ocean]

If you have no BS you wont have an MS either, theyre usually a prerequisite

[minor oriole]

@smoky quest @summer roost how about ML, AI and block chain boot camps

[smoky quest]

scams

[minor oriole]

how do you know?

[vapid jay]

true for mechanical engineer as well, @cyan sequoia think of it like CAD, the CAD you learn in school is nothing compared to what most jobs require, the same can be said about coding

[smoky quest]

do you think something can teach you some topics as complext and nuanced as AI/ML from scratch in 2-3 months?
Most of the AI/ML require a MS or above. And blockchain is a fad

[summer roost]

right. That's why part time jobs in skills that require training and expertise are really rare.

[vapid jay]

if you get a job ytou will be trained for MONTHS how to actually use cad like a professional even after 4 years of studying

[slim night]

what I mean is, if I want to switch careers to programming, I will have to make the jump without the cushion of doing it part-time and keeping my full time lab job (which is tied to my health insurance)

[summer roost]

"block chain" is totally a scam. It's a buzz word that a lot of people know, but most can't explain what it means. The bootcamp is trying to capitalize on its popularity

[vapid jay]

dont quit your job for this lol

[minor oriole]

I just do not want to do the typical. I want to do something different

[vapid jay]

knowing how to code is a good skill for the future, not just to find a job.

[summer roost]

that is true; you'll need to switch from one full time job to another most likely.

[smoky quest]

Also note that, you will have your CS degree as a foundation. Unless you go into IT/networking, certs will be utterly useless and not as valuable as projects

[vapid jay]

yes

[slim night]

don't quit my job to triple my current pay?

[vapid jay]

ah do that 🙂

[summer roost]

it's technically possible. It requires finding a school that will accept you into their CS Masters program. Whether a school will accept you depends on what your bachelor's degree is, and how well you did in it.

[slim night]

you scared me by saying I shouldn't quite my job, was wondering why?

[summer roost]

it's relatively common for someone with an ECE BS degree to get a CS masters degree.

[vapid jay]

why not? you have an engineering degree

[summer roost]

I couldn't say. I'd be surprised if a civil engineer could get accepted into a CS Masters program, but I don't know civil engineering terribly well.

[near ocean]

Without having any bachelors or without having a relevant bachelors

[vapid jay]

there are people with liberal art degrees going to masters in CS.

[sterile vault]

What about the programs that are on the border of disciplines?

[vapid jay]

if you can complete an engineering degree you can do CS, maybe CS people dont want to admit that but engineering is AS hard if not harder than CS

[near ocean]

You probably can do a CS MSc with an eng background

[vapid jay]

OMSCS

[sterile vault]

Say, data analysis degrees based on CS faculty that is targeting science grads rather than CS grads.

[slim night]

was this to me?

[vapid jay]

Everyone 🙂

[summer roost]

for the ones that are on the border, getting an MS in the one you're adjacent to is a relatively common way to pivot careers - electrical engineers getting a CS masters as part of a transition into pure software development is relatively common.

[vapid jay]

yea, shouldn't matter its CS lol

[sterile vault]

We have a politologist at our program, lol. But he's surprisingly decent with R.

[vapid jay]

you are working with a computer anyway, employers dont care if its online or in person

[true harness]

it does matter, you miss a lot of interpersonal relation things by going online

[slim night]

what about landing a position as a code monkey and then developing skills in the meantime?

[summer roost]

it's not about relative difficulty, it's about having the relevant background. Masters degrees will assume that you're already familiar with the subject at the bachelor's level. If you're not, you will not have the background to complete the master's without self-studying for a bachelor's at the same time.

[vapid jay]

its not so easy when you have a full time job

there are people from india and pakistan taking OMSCS lol its open to everyone with good credentials

[vapid jay]

Yea but if you completed an engineering degree you are likely at least have the mathematical background and capable of self-teaching or taking certs in the field

its not easy, masters degrees are hard

[dense mesa]

It may be worth clarifying that electrical engineers aren't nearly as likely to get CS degrees as electronic ones. Electrical focuses on much different stuff that doesn't use as much programming

[summer roost]

do you know of any civil engineers who pursued a CS MS?

[true harness]

that doesn't change whether or not it matters

[vapid jay]

nah, its a lot more popular for mechanical and electrical degrees

[summer roost]

I know people who've done that one, by virtue of getting a job in industry for a while where they migrated towards hardware and firmware, and then picking up the CS MS to transition towards software. But yes, ECE is closer to CS than EE is, but both are closer than mechanical or civil engineering.

[vapid jay]

I mean you can connect with people online. Its not easy to work full time and go to an in person class

[vapid jay]

Mechanical engineers use software and programming as well

[summer roost]

applying for a software development job without previous paid experience as a software dev and without a CS degree puts you at a pretty severe disadvantage.

[sterile vault]

It's much harder to connect without coffee breaks and bar after exams.

[minor oriole]

@summer roost @smoky quest https://www.indeed.com/lead/what-employers-think-about-coding-bootcamp

[vapid jay]

I didnt do that in bachelors anyway

[dense mesa]

ECE is different to EEE, both are similar to EE

[summer roost]

literally every major "uses software". English majors use word processors.

[vapid jay]

most Mechanical engineers learn at least 1 programming classes (i had 3) so its not that far off

[dense mesa]

Someone who does civil can still do a CS conversion masters

[summer roost]

The point I'm driving at is that not all types of engineering are equally amenable to a pivot into computer science. That shouldn't be a controversial claim.

[sterile vault]

Really? I was a VERY introverted person, but getting some small talk in a breakroom was basically unavoidable anyway.

[vapid jay]

i mean it is far off but its not impossible

[summer roost]

ah, I didn't know that. The Civil engineer I know had to take exactly 1, and it was a programming class taught by the engineering department instead of the CS department.

[vapid jay]

I had a C++ class, a matlab class (admittedly not a traditional programming class) and an elective that i took

[smoky quest]

According to Burks, the next version of “Windows or OSX or the next Android phone” will most likely be created by a computer science grad. “But for someone who wants to build websites, SaaS products or work on startups, what they need at that point is a practical understanding.”
Yeah, so bootcamp grads (who do not have cs degrees for the vast majority) are used as low wage code monkeys.
( I also disagree with the part about the startup there, though)

[summer roost]

you would be right.

[vapid jay]

there are english majors in OMSCS, its possible but hard

[vapid jay]

my point is that many people from non-stem degrees make that change, having a stem degree makes that transition at least somewhat more manageable

[minor oriole]

agreed.

[summer roost]

how many of those English BA's go on to graduate from a CS MS? I'd expect many of those wouldn't have the requisite math background to even meet the baseline of what a CS MS would require.

[sterile vault]

Lingustics are pretty math-heavy, tbh

[vapid jay]

True lol i only saw these reddit post of anecdotes

[vapid jay]

Idk how it is with civil but i know several Mech engs who became software developers

[summer roost]

things like reddit posts are going to be full of survivor bias. The people who do a weird thing and succeed post about it. The people who do a weird thing and fail keep their mouths shut.

[vapid jay]

Also I graduated with a 3.7 GPA in a STEM degree, i believe it counts towards something lol

[true harness]

usually, yes

[vapid jay]

you have front end stack, backend stack, full stack

i am not fully familiar so i will let the CS folks describe it lol

[sterile vault]

Do you consider SQL a language? Because you won't be avoiding it as a Python dev.

[summer roost]

The OMSCS sounded more legit before you said that someone with an English BA can get accepted into the program. That makes it sound much less likely to be a genuine MS to me, though I've never heard about the program before today. 🤷

almost every job requires more than 1 language.

[vapid jay]

i heard they made the admission way harder recently since many of them failed

OMSCS is a hard degree with a low graduation rate so just reaize that

the graduation rate is low because many people who aren't serious about programming fail, GTech made the admissions harder.

[summer roost]

"front end" is the part that runs on the end user's computer (in a web browser, frequently). "back end" is the part that runs on the company's servers. "full stack" is someone who works on both of those parts.

[smoky quest]

yeah, that's close enough

[summer roost]

right, the "front" end is the user's computer, the "back" end is the company's computers.

[honest pivot]

Usually the back end is what does the actual work, and probably has a database attached, etc.

[vapid jay]

OMSCS requires you to complete $1500 certifications if you don't have a CS background

[summer roost]

depends what you mean by "harder". They tend to be difficult in different ways.

[vapid jay]

so just know that, they wont just accept you. You must have a GPA above 3.0

yes,

[slim night]

I think of front end as the auto body tech, back end as the engine mechanic, and full stack as someone who can do both (but this could be inaccurate)

[summer roost]

if you were to switch to CS now, you'd likely be able to finish on time, or perhaps 1 semester late. That costs you 6 months as opposed to 2 years on a masters.

[vapid jay]

B average

[vapid jay]

^^^^ less risk

[smoky quest]

Most engineers I know would find the frontend easier. It's still hard work, but not as technical in typical cases

[summer roost]

a 3.0 is an average of 90% on all assignments.

[vapid jay]

80%

without a CS degree you need WAY more than 80%

the higher your grades the better lol

[sterile vault]

I wonder what's harder to get into. Because I see SO MUCH frontend bootcamps, there must be avalanche of applicants for frontend roles.

[vapid jay]

that goes for any MS program not just GTech, they wont just accept anyone.

[summer roost]

there are more frontend roles than any other type of development.

more software dev jobs are web development than any other single type of development.

[smoky quest]

There are more roles and it's also easier. That makes it an easier target

[summer roost]

but yes, the frontend roles tend to have lower compensation and be less challenging.

[sterile vault]

Well, now everything is web development. Even desktop is web development (hello, electron)

[summer roost]

not everything. plenty of stuff runs only on remote servers.

[vapid jay]

yea, literally every single company in the world needs a website, so they need a web developer

[maiden sedge]

SQUARESPACE.COM

why can i only send one message every 4,000 hours?

[sterile vault]

Doesn't it make it backend, and therefore web development?

[summer roost]

to discourage shitposty messages like "SQUARESPACE.COM"

[maiden sedge]

well there was a punchline

[vapid jay]

you would need to convince them why you are fit for a masters program in computer science with a civil engineering degree, that is not as easy of a task as you think. The people who got there with english/art majors spend YEARS self-studying

[quiet veldt]

does anyone know what you really code being a software dev?

[maiden sedge]

but i couldn't send it lol

[smoky quest]

I am sure some do

[sterile vault]

Mostly Tic-tac-toe and Hangman. Don't let other people fool you saying othewise.

[summer roost]

No, not everything that runs on the backend is part of a web site. Your bank has a website, which is used for making transfers and checking balances, and it also has a backend that's used for processing checks and investing the money in people's savings accounts. The two are completely different systems.

[vapid jay]

theres many programs, many have even harder admissions, there are many post-bacc options

[vapid jay]

btw i forgot to ask, what about a post-bacc degree?

[summer roost]

what about them?

[sterile vault]

Well, fair point. Probably a matter of definition.

[vapid jay]

would it be more suitable?

[summer roost]

a minor in mathematics can be very helpful for certain types of software dev.

[summer roost]

websites have a portion that runs on the backend, but other things also run on the backend that are not part of websites

[smoky quest]

if there are math involved, they may

[summer roost]

more suitable than what?

[sterile vault]

I've seen people looking for PhDs in math for certain roles, like DS of trading.

[vapid jay]

a masters of science

like a lot of civil engineering

[summer roost]

graphics, data science, and cryptography depend on heavily on math. Most other areas don't.

[vapid jay]

civil engineers take linear algebra and differential equations so its already an advantage

[gilded valley]

A huge chunk of employers would treat a maths degree as >= to a CS degree in deciding whether to offer you an interview or not

[summer roost]

sure, but it's abstract math. "programming language theory" and "graph theory" and "game theory".

[vapid jay]

any kind of math is good for CS roles

[quiet veldt]

is knowing advanced python enough to land a job

[summer roost]

for what kind of job?

[gilded valley]

it would count in your favour to have it then yes

[summer roost]

with what degree, or what prior work experience?

[vapid jay]

yea but not more than a CS degree lol

[quiet veldt]

software dev

[smoky quest]

you may want to look at https://roadmap.sh/ to give you some ideas of skills involved in some of the roles

[sterile vault]

Differential equations should be pretty useful for signal processing. Stuff like voice recognition, for example.

[gilded valley]

Software developer or data-X roles. I can list multiple huge companies that would happily interview people from any degree background, and more that would interview people from any STEM degree background

[summer roost]

so you already have a software dev job, and you know Python, and you're wondering if you would be able to land a job doing software dev?

[vapid jay]

if you know how to code and can pass an interview they'll take you lol

[summer roost]

I know companies that will interview people from any degree background for software dev jobs as well, but I don't know any who prefer mathematics degrees over CS degrees. That's a whole different claim.

[vapid jay]

civil engineering is not fine arts lol you are still taking math classes

but it is harder, you are making it harder on yourself if you truly want to do CS

[summer roost]

it's definitely more likely to help you than hurt you, especially if it's only 1 extra course.

[gilded valley]

For software, it seems to me there's lots of companies that just want any degree. But it seems to me there's a lot of datay jobs out there looking for more maths/stats skills which would want a maths background

[vapid jay]

why not a minor in CS? best of both worlds

[vapid jay]

with a job growth of 30% they'll have to or they wont find employees

[summer roost]

yeah, data-y jobs definitely care more about math than a CS degre. Programming jobs care more about a CS degree (or experience, or aptitude) than math.

[vapid jay]

currently i believe there is

[sterile vault]

Do you consider bootcamp grad as applicant?

[vapid jay]

get a CS minor

[sterile vault]

Above was mentioned that jobs get 100+ applicants now, and it feels believable.

[smoky quest]

not necessarily. They still have to be able to pass interviews

[vapid jay]

leetcode

[smoky quest]

that's a lot of if and a lot of work

[summer roost]

there's a huge variance in the pay and skill level for software development jobs. A lot of web development is essentially the software development equivalent of unskilled labor. It requires much less knowledge and expertise than other types of development, which makes it both easier to break into, but a worse career.

[smoky quest]

a lot of candidates like the idea of being in tech which high pay jobs, but not that much the effort behind it

[vapid jay]

self-teaching CS is difficult (currently doing it)

civil engineering salaries arent that bad

you won't be homeless, if thats all that bothers you. civil engineers work in MCOL and LCOL areas

200k in HCOL is not as much as you think

[sterile vault]

Again, depends on a job market. For example, in my country learning C would probably land you in some basement job with barely any career prospects, while doing the same in country with healthier industry (say, Germany) must be much more lucrative.

[vapid jay]

civil engineers' entry level salary is like 60k, that's the average for families

[summer roost]

I might be stating it a bit strongly. I personally despise web development, I find it incredibly tedious and boring. But web developers are the worst paid type of developers, they're the most common type of developer, and the job does require less expertise, which is why bootcamps tend to focus on it - it requires the least knowledge to break into.

[vapid jay]

they are still paid more than civil engineers lol

[gilded valley]

There's almost no city on earth where 200k pa isn't living incredibly comfortably

[smoky quest]

look at tiobe?

[summer roost]

Yeah, I'd expect pay in the $45k to $70k range for entry level web developers in the US.

[vapid jay]

true, 200k is also way above average even for CS majors

[quiet veldt]

what kind of developers do u prefer?

[gilded valley]

what is your field?

[summer roost]

backend/systems development.

[vapid jay]

that depends, i had 4 years of MATLAB so it wasnt that hard for me

[gilded valley]

ah - so still working on things like microservices talking over HTTP, just not ever coming close to the browser right?

[summer roost]

I can't possibly tell you what you'd find enjoyable. Different people have different preferences. I'll say that the pay usually correlates to the difficulty, so the ones that pay the best are the ones that are hardest to self teach (not by coincidence, that's supply and demand at work)

[summer roost]

I've done microservices over HTTP, but I've also written DNS servers. My primary language is C++, and a lot of my job these days is creating Python bindings for existing C++ libraries to expose their functionality to Python app developers.

[vapid jay]

@cyan sequoia if you are concerned with pay, civil engineers earn quite a good living

[smoky quest]

python is a great starter language. It can be used in many contexts professionally too

[summer roost]

Python is a great first programming language.

[sterile vault]

Well, there's also "demand" part of equation. Or else engineers wouldn't switch to easier to self-teach CS.

[vapid jay]

yea its because software has insane demand right now so they pay a lot

[summer roost]

for the last several years I've done exclusively library development; I haven't needed to deploy anything in a long time.

[smoky quest]

it's not just the demand, but the also the impact can have. And a great engineer can have a larger impact

[vapid jay]

yea heavy manufacturing industries are being outsourced, meanwhile software can be done anywhere, hence the decline in the demand for mechanical/civil roles

and also, the world is only becoming more and more digital

[smoky quest]

also it's a bit of an outlier, but consider whatsapp when they got bought.
They had 1 billions users, had 20-50 engineers and sold for 20 billions dollars.
I am gonna let you compute the ratio of users/engineers and $$$/engineer

[vapid jay]

if you look at any FAANG company you'll see WAY more software opportunities than mechanical ones

[smoky quest]

it's more common as you become more senior and need less training and hand holding

[summer roost]

it's much more common post-pandemic, but it used to be relatively uncommon. Most companies wanted you in the office at least sometimes

it's unclear whether the software engineers who left the office in 2020 will wind up mostly going back, or mostly staying home... we're likely seeing a bit of a paradigm shift underway there.

[smoky quest]

5

[summer roost]

Your first programming language will probably take you around 6 months to a year to build any reasonable level of competency with. Other languages will come faster after that.

[vapid jay]

I do have a couple of job opportunities in controls/robotics that utilize SQL and python you think it'd be a good opportunity to transition to software? @summer roost @smoky quest

[summer roost]

but different people learn at different rates.

yes.

[smoky quest]

it depends too much on where you start from and how much effort you put in and some other things

[smoky quest]

it's too terse to say, but could be

[vapid jay]

definitely better than being a CAD monkey

[sterile vault]

And even after year there will be tons of adjacent technologies which you should eventually learn about.

[summer roost]

My guess is that in January 2025, there will be many more 100% remote software engineers than there were in January 2020, but it will still be a minority of software engineers - maybe it'll climb to 10%.

I'd be pretty shocked if it climbed to 25%.

[vapid jay]

let me ask it to you this way, if you came across a mech eng BS with computer science MS with personal project experience, would you consider it equally to BS in CS?

[summer roost]

it depends, especially on the type of work. web dev jobs won't care about C++ at all, kernel dev jobs won't care about Python at all.

[smoky quest]

language is a tool, not an end in itself.
You should focus on the role and skills rather than the language. You should also be ready to pick up the company's language of choice when moving in

[summer roost]

Yes, I'd consider those to be on approximately equal footing.

[vapid jay]

most CS people say that learning the fundamentals of programming and data structures and algorithms is the most important because learning a language is just syntax, its how you use the language

[smoky quest]

I would, but from experience, the MS would in general fare better.
Causation vs correlation

Yeah, focus is key. Start with python as it is versatile

[vapid jay]

damn im definitely getting that MS. i will have to do TONS of studying though

[summer roost]

Python is a good place to begin for self teaching. Once you've learned Python, if you're interested in web development learn JavaScript.

[smoky quest]

Unsurprisingly, studying more and knowing more does pay off

[vapid jay]

no, i have a minimum of 2 years of self-studying before i even attempt that

[sterile vault]

That's the advantage of CS grads. They are likely to have a breadth of experience with, say, Python, Java, C++ in dfiferent courses.
The only way I could compete as non-CS grad is to focus learning solely on Python, because I don't have 4 spare years.
...still picked up the basics of some other langs like R, lol.

[vapid jay]

Do python crash course or automate the boring stuff, both are great books (i am reading python crash course)

personally i hate videos and tutorials, i like learning from books

[sterile vault]

And language is NOT just syntax. I'm picking up some Rust and there's no way I can wrangle with it's borrow checker well enough to be considered a professional Rust programmer.

[gilded valley]

I'm curious - self teaching and going in to web-dev or generic enterprise dev roles seems easy enough in terms of skills required (but not easy in terms of proving it to employers). But for the lower level systems stuff that you're doing, do you lean more heavily on more complex theoretical stuff that means the barrier to entry is higher ?

[summer roost]

a bit, but the skills needed for my area aren't really skills that are taught in CS courses, either. They're largely things that require expertise in or specialization over many years to build up requisite knowledge.

[smoky quest]

there are some huge assumptions baked in with regards to the complexity of the jobs in there

[gilded valley]

what are the assumptions?

[smoky quest]

That the skills required aren't that difficult and the most difficult part is to prove them

[summer roost]

I don't tend to need fancy data structures or algorithms, but I do need to know things about the syscall boundary between kernel space and user space, and things about how the dynamic loader loads shared libraries, and things about how to manage the exported symbols of shared libraries, and (this week) how to deal with the fact that a thread's thread-local variables are destroyed before that thread stops running, and how to cope with that... and so on.

Also a lot of my job requires skills that are more at the big picture design level than the small picture coding level.

[gilded valley]

I would disagree. Someone motivated to self learn and who has a genuine interest in building cool things can pick up something like React+Python, or Java for mobile apps with relative ease because it's a very practical exercise. Self-motivating to build a library or read books about software patterns and good API design or whatnot is much harder

[vapid jay]

Still important to learn data structures and algorithms if you want any chance at a job

[summer roost]

yep, it absolutely is. I wasn't giving advice about how to break into the industry, I was just talking about the job I work today.

At the layer where I work, my go-to debugging tool is strace. and possibly helgrind

[smoky quest]

and these do not exist in frontend or mobile?

[gilded valley]

they are not necessary to acquire the skills, no. You can acquire the skills in an almost entirely practical sense

[vapid jay]

grad, interviewing for full time positions as a mech eng

i am planning to take my time, transitioning to CS will take me anywhere from 3 to 5 years

[smoky quest]

Actually it's the same thing than in the other domains

[summer roost]

learning good API design in particular generally requires reading an awful lot of code, and learning from other people's (good and bad) decisions. It's something that I think can't be taught in a class.

[sterile vault]

Software patterns are very fun to learn when doing gamedev as ahobby. Learning how they can be applied to turn you unmaintainable mess into neat abstractions. Probably because the domain requires a variety of interactions (you're likely to have more types of goblins in game than types of employees in your DB) and the requirements change each time you think up a new cool feature.

[gilded valley]

that makes a lot of sense. It's definitely something that I can notice is wrong as a user, but I think I'd find it impossible to get right myself for anything remotely complex

[summer roost]

for someone who has never learned a programming language before, I'd strongly recommend the books Automate the Boring Stuff with Python, and Python Crash Course.

[sterile vault]

The most fun thing that every 2 users would have 3 different opinions how good API should look.

[summer roost]

Automate the Boring Stuff is available free online - I think Python Crash Course is too, but I'm less positive.

[sterile vault]

Automate the boring stuff is free on it's website. It skips fundamentals, but goes into practical tasks early.

[gilded valley]

this is a fairly core problem to the creation of almost anything - users can spot problems, but often their proposed solutions are garbage

[summer roost]

your API choices result in tradeoffs - they make some things easy and make other things hard or prohibitively expensive. Until you've seen many different ways of solving the same problem, and learned the upsides and downsides to each of them, you won't have any intuition about what problems a given API design could lead to.

[sterile vault]

Maybe Guido Van Rossum already knows enough.

[smoky quest]

That's also because contexts may be different

You always have to keep learning. The world chances and evolves.
The python from 10 years ago is pretty different from today's python

[vapid jay]

"beyond the basic stuff" is also a good book

whatever book you use, make sure its in python 3

[quiet veldt]

can i become a software engineer by the time im 25?

[dense mesa]

Guys python general is getting flooded

[sterile vault]

Yeah, for example plotting. Some users want to just make a quick plot of data in command line. Other are professional developers making a library. For first, having a plot() function is the most obvious API. For second, plot being a constructed object makes manipulating it much easier and doesn't open the can of worms that is a shared state.

[fringe pine]

We're dealing with it 👍

[vapid jay]

there are people who do it at 40

[sterile vault]

If you're already 26, probably not

[thorn elk]

omg look at general chat

[summer roost]

I heard someone from the Steering Council give a talk a few months back. They related an anecdote - they said that once, they asked who thinks that Python has been adding a bunch of unnecessary features and needs to step back and focus on what makes Python a great language in the first place. More than half the audience raises their hands. They then asked who has a proposed feature that they'd really love to see make it into the Python language. Even more people raised their hands.

[smoky quest]

Also don't expect to write a great api from the get go.
These things happen over time through learning and refinement

[vapid jay]

ye

[summer roost]

the point being that the features that some people think of as unnecessary fluff are the features that others are dying to get.

[smoky quest]

lol so true

Sometimes, you also bake in some assumptions, expectations or requirements which do not pan out for whatever reason

[dense mesa]

Try codingbat if you're a beginner, leetcode otherwise

[vapid jay]

I can't recommend anything. I tried everything, linkedin learning, udemy, edx, coursera, they are all bad for me books are the best in my opinion

and leetcode, but that is more for exercises

[slim night]

thank you for this suggestion!

[sterile vault]

hackerrank, exersism and check.io are good ones.

[slim night]

what does it mean that the general chat is getting raided?

Is that like a DDOS?

[summer roost]

they're certainly enough to teach you the basics. Where to go after the basics will depend on what direction you want to go on, but the path to learning the basics is the same for everyone.

yes, it is. the admins are on top of it.

[dense mesa]

Codingbat

[sterile vault]

Spoiler alert - they are the same. Basic tasks which are usually not python-specific (like sort an array or find palindrome). So the difference is picking one with nice UI.

[vapid jay]

except leetcode, that one is kinda hard for a beginner like me

[slim night]

yay! I helped somebody in general chat XD

[dense mesa]

LeetCode definitely isn't for python beginners yeah

[slim night]

good, so it wasn't just me

[vapid jay]

or beginners of any language for that matters

[summer roost]

people who are quite good at math could also look at Project Euler.

[sterile vault]

Well, the harder leetcode is not about the language. It's for knowing obscure language/algo tricks and then implementing them with basic bitch for loops and ifs.

[vapid jay]

Linear algebra is the highest math i took, how advanced do CS degrees get?

[sterile vault]

I'd love to work on challenges that, say, tested your ability to impement concurrency properly.

[summer roost]

linear algebra, stats, and discrete math are usually the highest.

[sterile vault]

Confession - I've learned python for quite a while but never properly learned how to do async.

[vapid jay]

is discrete math higher than linear algebra? if so ill have to take a course on that or a book

[vapid jay]

what book/textbook did you use to learn that? ill take a look at that

[true harness]

not really "higher", just different

[summer roost]

you don't necessarily need to learn discrete math. I never took it, but I know some CS programs require it.

[vapid jay]

ah ok yea

[sterile vault]

I've found a gread Linal book. I loved it because it was practice-oriented https://gamemath.com/book/

[gritty rivet]

@cyan sequoia I would second Project Euler even if you're terrible at math. Another really good site for beginner problems is https://www.rallycoding.com/

[vapid jay]

so i basically have all the math required

[true harness]

if you can, download your own environment. it's way easier

[sterile vault]

Local environment for 90% tasks, Colab for ML training because free GPU.

[vapid jay]

I was doing discrete math for my finite element analysis class actually

[true harness]

maybe. graph theory is very useful, and a lot of college programs require it

[vapid jay]

ah ok ill learn that then. I want to not just be a code monkey but actualy understand programming fundamentals

[gritty rivet]

https://thonny.org/

[summer roost]

the Thonny editor comes with an install of Python, and has features that are designed to progressively teach you the Python language.

[slim night]

I am using https://codewith.mu/

[summer roost]

Mu is good too.

as far as editors go, everyone has their own preferences, but for getting started, Thonny is a very good choice to get started with.

[sterile vault]

And later there's a holy war between Pycharm and VS Code
||or vim and emacs||

[vapid jay]

I used to be a pycharm stan, until i tried VS code

[summer roost]

really? I thought the holy war was between vim and VS Code with vim bindings.

[vapid jay]

now im full on VS Code, i do literally everything on it including science-y stuff like plotting heat transfer data

[gritty rivet]

Let's not turn this into #editors-ides please 😂

[sterile vault]

...aaaand the discussion's dead 😄

[vapid jay]

No discussion VS Code the best

[summer roost]

frankly that might have been the longest this chat has ever gone without the topic being "go to college, kids"

[vapid jay]

ye ty for the help 🙂 🙂

literally 10 times as many jobs lol

[summer roost]

a software dev is just someone who writes software. There's as many different types of software dev jobs as there are different types of software.

[sterile vault]

Also, there are other IT-related jobs. For example, I have a friend who moved into a dev position by first going through software tester role.