career-advice

[near ocean]

you do, i learned js and react and built my portfolio 4 months after i graduated

[vague jolt]

was it scary? it is kinda looked down to not have a job after graduation

[near ocean]

yea well we had a whole thing with society dying literally and figuratively, not that bothered

[sacred salmon]

Is there a forum for python discord to post an opening for some contracting work?

[gritty rivet]

No, plenty of websites for that but nothing on Discord that I know of

[sacred salmon]

Thanks!

[vague jolt]

I found this website: https://www.fullstackpython.com/ and it feels like this is what I wanna do.

Thanks for the help!

[gusty wasp]

Hello, I’m a senior in college and have been fortunate to have gotten a full time offer last week. However, I’m also interviewing with other companies. I finished my first round of interview today with compnay x and they will tell me if they want to move forwad into the final round. But, my current offer expires on 13th 5pm EST. Should i tell the rectuiter for company x about this update even though I have told me I have finished an interview and waiting a feedback. And if do tell them, should I mention the company name that offered me the job. Thank for your insights and advice.

[vapid jay]

Hello, i live.

[gritty rivet]

You have over a week before the 13th. Do you think you may here from company x by then?

If no, I would accept the offer anyway. Just because you accept the offer doesn't mean you can't leave if a better one pans out. Worst case you are burning a bridge with the company you have your current offer from

[gusty wasp]

@gritty rivet thank you for your insights. I was in the process emailing my rectruiter at company x and notify her about this deadline and see if they are still planing to move forward and/or provide an update/feedback about interview process. But i wanted to give some good thoughts. What would be a better way to phrase this email?

Also, if I renege with the current company/offer, is that considered breaking a bridging? They are great company and I have interned with this past summer. I’m just confused with this whole process of choosing company/team to work for!

[gritty rivet]

You send company x a basic post interview thank you and wait. https://www.ziprecruiter.com/blog/the-right-way-to-follow-up-after-a-job-interview/

[gritty rivet]

If you accept their offer and then back out, then yes, you should expect to never work for that company again

[gusty wasp]

Thank you for sharing this resources. To follow up with interviewers, Should i reachout out to the recruiter or the guys that interviewed me coz I dont have their emails.

[gritty rivet]

If you've already interned there you should have a pretty clear idea whether you want to work there or not

Ideally you should thank the actual interviewer

[gusty wasp]

Also, while reaching out to the recruiter from company x, is it a good idea to mention the company name that offered me the offer? Or just mention offer deadline?

[gritty rivet]

I wouldn't mention any of that in any way.

There is no benefit to sharing that info. It won't influence their decision in your favor or move them faster, it would just send the message that you're not committed and still looking

[gusty wasp]

Thank you @gritty rivet for the advice

[gritty rivet]

Best of luck 🤞

[woeful spruce]

anyone have any experience dealing with data warehouses/ lakes. Had a recruiter reach out to me about a role related to running queries/analytics in that type of environment.

Seems to me like it is basically just an ETL environment. Doubt the learning curve would be much, but you know.experience, experience, experience trumps all 🙄

[smoky quest]

Have you signed yet?

[native narwhal]

I am looking at python jobs guys
all jobs are for web dev lol
there is literally zero jobs for ML or AI or even game dev

[smoky quest]

Depends on the location. There are tons of ml jobs

[outer junco]

^ check out the links in the description of this channel

[gusty wasp]

I have not signed the offer yet. I have till 13th 5pm EST

[smoky quest]

As long as you haven't signed, there is nothing to renege on.
Reneging on an offer means you have signed, which officially signal you are in and they can stop the search

On their end, as long you haven't signed, they continue the search as well

[gusty wasp]

Yeah, I’m still waiting the feedback from interview for company x. If i dont get a response by next week monday. I will try to sign the offer letter. I like the company and it’s based in my local city. No relocation needed. However, I would like to explore other options as well.

[smoky quest]

you can give a call to the recruiter and let them know you got an offer and trying to see if they could accelerate the process on their end. it happens all the time

[cobalt moat]

is it worth getting a comp sci degree? ping me

[dapper depot]

imo it's best to get a complementary degree and either double major or minor in CS

knowledge in another domain that you can use CS for will take you a long way

[cobalt moat]

so dont get a comp science major?

[dapper depot]

so eg statistics, biology, linguistics, etc

there's no single answer here

it depends on what you want

[cobalt moat]

i want the big monies
because money buys happiness

[dapper depot]

then my first advice would be to adjust your priorities

[cobalt moat]

why

[smoky quest]

yes

[gusty wasp]

I’m going to email the recruiter about this offer update and see if they can speed up the process so that if I get an offer from them I can decide between the two companies without commiting to any now. I really appreciate @smoky quest your insights and advice.

[summer roost]

once basic needs are met, increased money does not yield much increase in happiness. The middle class and the rich are roughly equally happy.

[cobalt moat]

i well i need enough money to feed my 27 puppies

i want a puppy ranch

and if its not exactly 27 im not going to be happy

[summer roost]

this is starting to feel like trolling in an on-topic channel.

[lilac remnant]

don't forget the jet skis

[gritty rivet]

Just keep in mind that this is a double-edged sword. There's a trade off between getting a fast decision and getting a favorable one. The more I would prefer to work at the second company the more I would hesitate to rush them.

[jagged hearth]

that’s a lot of puppies .-.

[barren urchin]

i have decided i am going to be rich

VERY rich

[cobalt moat]

i just like puppies, the main question is about if a degree is right for me. Up to this point I have always planned on going to college but friends have told me that I will get the same jobs without a college degree as long as I have experience.

[smoky quest]

Without a degree, it's like doing your career in extra hardcore mode. You will have a lot more difficulties and a lot less opportunities

[barren urchin]

i bet he loves a challenge

[summer roost]

friends have told me that I will get the same jobs without a college degree as long as I have experience.
Have those friends gotten software development jobs without college degrees?

They're not wrong - you can get a job without a degree if you have experience. But you don't have experience, or a degree. Which means you need to choose whether to prioritize getting a degree, or to prioritize getting experience without a degree. Without a degree, it's harder to convince people to hire you, so it won't be easy to get meaningful experience.

[smoky quest]

And that doesn't stop there. You will still be less educated and will have to work harder to climb the corporate ladder.

There is no shortcut

[olive hazel]

And when you get there you'll be working for someone 15 years younger than you making the salary you should have been making 15 years ago

Experience can offset a lack of formal education. But A LOT of experience

[cobalt moat]

how would i be working for someone 15 years younger

[olive hazel]

Because the person with less time on the job got there faster, because they had the degree, got the job faster, started climbing faster, building experience faster than you. You have to do something more impressive than that guy to get the job, because he'll always have that degree, and you're not even starting the race from the same line.

unless you've got a holy you-know-what portfolio and resume, you're hanging your interview chances on how much the hiring manager reaaaally cares about that degree

Not to rabbit hole, but also assuming your resume even gets there. Quality job posting sites will filter you right out of the pile before HR even logs in.

[summer roost]

it's also common, as you get further into your career, to wind up being recommended to jobs by people you've known or worked with in the past. The people who go to college have a built in network that they start with; they take classes and do group projects with this group of people, and later on they can ask those people "Hey, where do you work now? Do you like it there?" etc.

you're starting behind the curve on the networking line, too, if you don't have that degree.

[olive hazel]

eeeeeeexcellent point

I'm almost 40, business school degree, 16 years on the job, spent the last 5 changing careers (took that long even with over a decade of online marketing on my resume). Not the same situation as you, but believe me when I say, that degree is very important to a lot of people.

wouldn't have taken 5 years with one of those bad boys

[woeful spruce]

how do you know that the degree was the reason?

anyone have any experience with requesting raises outside of the employee evaluation period?

[ivory sluice]

no, i usually just waited until it was eval time. have you had a significant change in your role to justify it?

[woeful spruce]

I keep getting more responsibility stacked on me

plus, my manager told me I was supposed to get one before the pandemic hit

......and then the pandemic hit

and it was forgotten, but the responsibility still remained. I guess it makes me feel resentful since I have become the go to guy in my department........but, on the other hand, I do love my job and how easy it can be sometimes. I'd rather not look for another job.

I don't mind waiting until eval, but we didn't even have one last year. So I am not sure when it will happen.

[vast shoal]

You could casually look for other opportunities while you continue where you are, and if you find something promising, you can either take it or use it as leverage when asking for a raise.

[woeful spruce]

I thought of that, but, I feel like that would put me on the chopping block in the future. I have proven that I am not loyal and willing to leave.

[vast shoal]

If that's the kind of employer you have, I'd leave in either case.

[woeful spruce]

well that is a lie, I have been doing that. No luck so far, after 4 interviews, grr. I don't find any of those othe rcompanies to be as good as mine, so far.

[woeful spruce]

Really? So this offer matching is common?

unfortunate that I have to get another offer to get a raise, but it is the only incontrovertible proof there is that I am worth more. I just need to master those BS behavioral questions first.

[ivory sluice]

one thing to solidify in writing is when your next review is going to be, then you can start preparing

[vast shoal]

I mean, I'm just speaking from my own perspective, and I'm probably not even from the same part of the world as you, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

[woeful spruce]

I'm American btw

[vast shoal]

I'm Swedish

[ivory sluice]

now that things are normalizing after the pandemic, employers should be back on schedule for all this stuff

(I'm American)

[woeful spruce]

Good idea. Not sure how to broach that question, but I better ask at some point. Our department is so disorganized lately. Seems almost whimsical.

[woeful spruce]

American sentiment is the same. Find a new job, which I hate. I am awful at interviews since my job is so niche and doesn't fit nicely into a box.

Good advice here, as usual. I do appreciate the responses.

[ivory sluice]

my environment is also super disorganized and poorly structured. that's when you have to be aggressive & consistent. loudest mouse gets the cheese, or whatever.

this is especially true if your preference is to stay rather than leave.

[woeful spruce]

isn't just asking about a raise now aggressive? Or is that just foolish?

[ivory sluice]

I think I made up that mouse phrase

[woeful spruce]

squeaky wheel gets the grease?

[ivory sluice]

you first broach the topic of your review. raise talk comes during the review (in my exp)

[woeful spruce]

ok, I'll be patient. Good thing I got a second opinion before making an idiot out of myself. Phew.

[ivory sluice]

still, take all we say with a grain of salt. you might have been working longer than I have. you know your situation best

[woeful spruce]

I'm sure it won't be until next year, but so be it. I'll just continue with my Data Engineering course, and I'll entertain what recruiters throw my way.

[ivory sluice]

(you're not sure till you ask)

[woeful spruce]

I've worked there 4 years. Got my last substantial raise 3 years ago.

I think being remote also hurts the performance review ceremony. Last year I was told we were all getting a 2% increase, and any review was just skipped.

[ivory sluice]

only 2% 😔 did you at least get the 2% tho!?

[smoky quest]

It's foolish. Most likely, it's outside the hands of your manager anyway. So either you call the bluff about leaving or you have to wait for the next eval period.
That said, it doesn't mean you can't do anything until then:

• Send some strong signal to your manager that they definitely need to come up with something
• Work with your manager to put you on track for success

[smoky quest]

if you expect a review/comp update, you should bring that up. If people don't complain, they are more than happy to do nothing

[wide quail]

/rank

[next berry]

It's generally just not worth asking, trying to negotiate or otherwise expending energy on obtaining a raise from a company you currently work at. (at least in the U.S.)

The risk far outweighs the unlikely outcome that they'll agree to something they otherwise haven't provided to you yet.

In order to get your worth, you have to go to another company 99/100 times. Most of it is due to simply how the corporate world does budget creation and tracking to be honest.

[warped tangle]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask but has anyone made the switch from physics or a related field to compsci? Did you think you made the right choice? I've been learning python for a month or so soon and I'm having a ton of fun, it makes me want to neglect my schoolwork a bit to instead code. I'm thinking doing something like data analysis sounds interesting, I dont think physics closes doors per se but outside the math + general problem-solving skills i've started thinking should I make the switch. I'm nearing maybe 50% done with my bachelors, I still enjoy math a lot but currently I have a course thats more focused on doing lab work and how to report your experiments + learning about measurement techniques/hardware and it has made me feel like atleast working in academia will never be it for me. I don't fully know what compsci entails.

[fluid arrow]

Hey is there any role for python in data science to get any specific type of role as a recruiter

[summer roost]

Waiting for the eval seems reasonable, if you can get them to commit to giving you one. You can't wait forever hoping they'll schedule one. Chat with your manager, say that you understand that last year was unprecedented, but that you haven't heard anything about how evals will be conducted this year, and ask when they'll be happening. If he asks why, you can mention that every day things are more expensive now thanks to COVID, and so you want the eval to have a chance for a compensation review. If the company is sufficiently large, your manager probably doesn't have the authority to give you a raise on his own, so your goal is to get the manager to commit to a time when the he will be authorized to give you something.

[summer roost]

3 years without a comp review really starts to feel like they'll never give you one unless you pester them about it. That doesn't sound like a company I'd want to work for, but it seems like you'll need to make noise to get that review.

[summer roost]

I didn't personally, but I know people who did. It's a relatively common switch, I know several professional programmers with physics PhD's

You might find that it's quite easy to switch still. At < 50% of the way through your bachelor's, many of the courses you've taken will have been relevant to both majors, and switching might only set you slightly behind schedule. If you're enjoying programming more, and think you'd like a job writing software or doing data science, switching seems reasonable. For data science in particular, you might find that switching from Physics to Math works out better, depending on your uni. Data science hires plenty of people with math degrees, as I understand, and math might overlap more with the courses you've already taken than CS.

[warped tangle]

Yeah I was planning on giving it a month or two and see if I still think this way after I learn some more [programming]. Atleast in the context of working say, as a quant for a hedge fund or similar the cutoff Im pretty sure is having a PhD which is way too much for me. Masters is probably ok and math should work.

I'm not in the US so switching isn't a financial obstacle, I think I'll look at what benefit would I get from staying and just say fk it and make the leap if it comes down to it

[honest pivot]

I have a physics PhD and swapped to do software in industry (quantum computing) last year. I didn't want to leave academia, but there are no jobs. However, having the physics PhD and a computer science background from my undergrad makes me uniquely qualified for a lot of interesting things.

[honest pivot]

I can't imagine staying at a place for years with no raises, or raises below inflation. Those are pay cuts.

[warped tangle]

Yeah theres still the key distinction I want to note - you have a PhD specifically, not just a bachelors or masters

Maybe you know better than me but I've heard that theres a big difference between a masters and a phd when going to ie software

[honest pivot]

I would say a bachelors in physics is not worth very much. A masters can be worth something if it's in the right topic vs what you want to do in industry. A PhD is supposed to mean that you can do novel research, and hopefully self-directed, which is valuable in itself. Then there can be more value depending on the topic. In the course of getting a PhD, you might also build some important soft skills.

[near ocean]

I have a physics PhD
I can't imagine staying at a place for years with no raises, or raises below inflation
Unrelated and sorry but this made me chuckle

On a more related note, I keep hearing that academia is a shitshow, how true is this?

[rustic badge]

it's very true if you stick with the traditional route and don't leverage knowledge/experience outside the classroom for financial gain

[honest pivot]

Ah, but I was getting a PhD in that time. 🙂

I don't know how to answer your question about academia. What do you mean? And in what field?

[near ocean]

In the STEM fields, i've heard people say that its full of corruption, little pay, unrewarding work, and some more corruption, mainly by profs stealing credit or forcing you to coauthor them and whatnot

[honest pivot]

Every field and even subfield is different. I've never shared authorship with anyone who didn't make a significant contribution to the paper.

[gilded tiger]

Anyone who has received an internship offer in the past, while you were in uni, can you send a sample of your resume? I'm in my 2nd year of uni right now and I need to grow my skills as I'm hoping to land a good internship offer within a year from now.

I'm kind of poor with academics right now and I need to focus more on my personal projects and other stuff. Any help would be appreciated!

[marsh wind]

have not met corruption. But little pay, unrewarding work, fucked hours: all this check

[woeful spruce]

It is a large company. The department just went through a re-organization (we inherited more people; no layoffs or anything) and my manager really doesn't have authority to make that change, but, he reports to the guy who does. Comp reviews (or employee reviews) were the norm pre-covid, so I am willing to cut them some slack there. Last review, back in 2019, I was already coming off a nice raise, so I wasn't in a position to ask for one then, and just took the 3% merit increase.

[woeful spruce]

There is a merit increase each year, except during COVID, in which, understandably, salaries were frozen because our sales were negatively affected. I don't want to give the impression that there are no cost of living adjustments.

My pay has gone up about 25% during my time there, which isn't outlandish imo. I do think I deserve more though.

[ivory sluice]

not an insignificant raise by any means, but if you were being paid severely under market value previously, then no matter the percentage bump compared to your previous pay, they should compensate you fairly for what you are worth now.

i've more than doubled my pay during my 8-year employment at the same company but i'm an outlier. i was able to do this successfully because i accepted shit pay when i started, worked hard, brought results, made sure the right people noticed and acknowledged those results, happened to report directly to the highest level of management, played my cards right and got lucky

however, the normal suggested route would have been to jump companies and keep advancing more quickly that way. it was very difficult to get the company to see me for my current value, because in their mind they're paying more and more money each year for the same asset (me), and while i did work hard, i attribute a lot of my nearly 2.5x increase in pay to luck and circumstance as well

[leaden peak]

Hello guys, i have a question about working abroad.
I am python junior, field - web, learned python for 1.5 years on my own and have 3 months of commercial experience. In July I'll graduate (Bachelor Degree, not CS but related) and I plan to work abroad after. I googled some information on this and it is possible to do even in pandemic world, the only problem for me is to find a job at that country. Which country? Basically I am ok with any developed one, maybe except US. So the question is how to find a job abroad? I tried to search on linkedin but there is no 'foreigners are welcomed' filter so it's hard to tell is it suites me or not.

[woeful spruce]

I don't think I was paid severely under market value when I started. They actually started me off pretty aggressively (at least based on the Cost of Living where I reside) based on my skills and experience. My goal is to make around double what I started with by my 8-10 year mark as well. Before I started though, I didn't have any python skills 😏 . Now I use those skills (and they are self taught) a lot to automate tasks and workflows. All things I plan to bring up during my performance evaluation.

[ivory sluice]

oh that's great then!

still the rule of "if you want more pay, hop jobs" still applies 🙃 put those python skills to use

[open condor]

what questions should I look to ask at a SWE internship interview?

[near ocean]

Are you the interviewee or the interviewer

[open condor]

interviewee, sorry

i have a list of more general questions already but i dont know if im missing anything important

[near ocean]

What do you have so far

[open condor]

questions about like

[vapid jay]

Question:
What is considered better IT engineering or CE?

My parents and probably my entire country advice for IT engineering but i want CE because it has my own aimed subjects

Can someone help me choose

Also isn't computer engineering = computer science

[open condor]

what is a typical day like, are your hours flexible (wfh?), how has covid affected the staff, what is the demographic of the team, what is the team like?, what technologies do you want me to know outside of the ones listed

[open condor]

comp e isnt the same as comp sci, comp e i think is more like circuit boards and the like if im not wrong

cs is more like data structures and algorithms and ce doesnt really work with that i guess

[near ocean]

Sounds about right yea, i also asked about the culture in the office, how the offices are laid out, if they go out together after work, etc

[open condor]

oh hmmmmmmmm

as an intern should i be asking about interns more or just everyone in general? do regular swes even hang out with the interns?

[vapid jay]

I really want someone who's into it to answer

[open condor]

i am a cs major bestie

[near ocean]

Why wouldnt the interns hang out with the regulars?

[vast shoal]

I second what @open condor said, I have an M. Sc. in CS.

[near ocean]

Where i work theyre a bit younger but still in our age group, i personally dont hang out with them cause theyre squares lmao

[open condor]

i have no clue LMAOOOOOOOOOO, t makes sense that they do hang together
im just dumb

[vapid jay]

So which one is better IT or CE?

[open condor]

it really depends on what you mean by IT

[near ocean]

There is NO "x is better" do what you like

[vapid jay]

The thing is filled with programming and little hardware

[vast shoal]

At my uni there wasn't any IT, there was just CS and CE.

[open condor]

do u think u would like hardware?

[vapid jay]

Alot yes

[open condor]

yea that makes sense, but ig it depends on the uni bc my uni has IT, CS, and CE (kinda) so

[near ocean]

Thats why you shouldnt ask on the internet but instead you should looo at the syllabus for your uni of choice

[open condor]

and at another uni ive heard there's CS, CE and CSE

[vast shoal]

So, if you wanted to be a software developer, you'd go with CS and if you want to work with embedded systems and hardware you'd go with CE.

[open condor]

if you like hardware ce is the definitely the move

[vapid jay]

I like it so much
I want to master it

My entire childhood was spent in electrical workshop with ee components , cooper and iron

[near ocean]

Are you sure you like it, or do you just like your preconceived idea of it

[vast shoal]

Sounds like CE would definitely be better than CS then.

[near ocean]

I thought i liked physics and maths and went for EE and regretted it

[open condor]

what'd u end up doing may i ask

[near ocean]

CS and then finance

[open condor]

oh interesting

[vapid jay]

CE for me then

[open condor]

do you reckon finance and cs go together at all, was considering a business major as well because it seems fun but unsure

[woeful spruce]

Yea. Unfortunately, that is the game. Just wish interviewing wasn't so soul sucking.

[near ocean]

definitely, fintech is humongous and evergrowing, i studied computational finance which was plenty interesting and right now i work in fintech developing and maintaining internal tools for a startup

[open condor]

hmmmmm

[near ocean]

they probably didnt hire me for my finance skills but it definitely helped

[open condor]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ive heard horror stories of financial maths if anything, but right now im considering an econometrics (i.e. business statistics) or finance major to couple with cs; my uni doesnt give me electives because of the path i've picked, regrets but oh well

[inner wren]

Rules

5. Do not provide or request help on projects that may break laws, breach terms of services, or are malicious or inappropriate.

[near ocean]

!rule 6 wrong rule lmao

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[near ocean]

econometrics has a higher focus on the maths and yes i've heard plenty of horror stories about it
my degree was about an even split between the mathematics of financial instruments and related computational methods

I went in with plenty of python experience so it was basically half a degree

[open condor]

hmmmmmmmm you're probably right, i should be more scared of econom if anything

[vast shoal]

I also work in fintech, though I barely studied any finance at uni. You don't really have to, but it doesn't hurt.

[open condor]

the reason im afraid of finance outside of the maths is because i took a financial accounting course and that class scarred me, but im not really sure if that's more finance or accounting that i should be afraid of after that

[vast shoal]

I guess it depends on the type of position as well.

[open condor]

could i ask what kind of position you hold?\

[vast shoal]

I'm a software engineer

I build backend infrastructure for financial exchanges

Err

Software infrastructure, not hardware

[open condor]

oh i see, so its still a SWE role but just in a more financy application

[vast shoal]

Yeah, for sure

If you want a more mathy job, a more mathy education doesn't hurt, certainly

[molten copper]

damn

[open condor]

i see, i see, thank you to you both @vast shoal @near ocean

wait this is really stupid but should i attempt to negotiate the length of the internship during the interview or after (assuming) the offer has been offered?

im afraid that if i wait till after everything will be finalised and i wont have a choice to change it, but if i do it during then im not really in the right position to be negotiating

[smoky quest]

That's not something people typically negotiate. Students already know the duration or applicable range of their internships before hand. Unless the company is super rigid, the duration doesn't really matter to the employer. But the sooner they know, the sooner they can adjust their expectations as they may need to prepare for it, get budget...

[humble knot]

How many coding questions should I do each day to get ready in 6 months for an interview

[smoky quest]

depends from where you start

[open condor]

i see, well the thing is i applied for a 6 or 12 month role and from what ive seen they hand it out randomly, the descriptions ive been assigned to both say 12 but...

on the app there was no specification for what i wanted or preffered, so im not sure if this is a beggars cannot be choosers scenario or if i should have the right to ask

not sure it matters but this isnt a small dodgy company idk why its like this

my friend got a 6mo role last semester

[near ocean]

I think your best option here is to be enthusiastic about the job, ask for more responsibilities, show interest and eventually express your interest into moving to a permanent role or extending your contract

[open condor]

i see i see, thats fair enough, the only thing im concerned about is that it'll delay my uni finish by quite a bit

[smoky quest]

You can start by probing and asking about it

[open condor]

mmm okok will do

tyvm ^^

[humble knot]

I'm not starting from scratch but I am a beginner to coding interview questions.

[smoky quest]

if you do 1-2 per day, you should be fine in less than one month

more would mean you are lacking in some fundamentals

[humble knot]

Damn, I was really worried about it. But that's quick lol I am already working somewhere as a software engineer but I need to change jobs quickly. Also what site do you recommend

[smoky quest]

leetcode

[vapid jay]

[near ocean]

This is a careers related discussion channel, you should probably head to offtopic

[jolly geode]

Hi, srry if its a stupid question. But Do only python jobs exist?

[smoky quest]

no. What makes you think so?

[lilac remnant]

I think he means Python-only jobs, which I guess is probably a yes

[jolly geode]

My question is, if i need to lern java, html etc. srry my english is not very good

[smoky quest]

ah then, it depends. But you will most likely need to learn more than just python

[lilac remnant]

Yeah I doubt there'd be many

[jolly geode]

What are the most similar languages? I like data, algorithms

[smoky quest]

What problem are you trying to solve? People don't learn languages based on similarity but based on what they enable you to do

Your python code will not live in a vacuum. It may interact with databases, which may use SQL, or some GNU/Linux server for which you may write bash scripts or as part of other services written in some other languages like java

[jolly geode]

Thanks for the help!

[zinc bobcat]

I am learning JS to become a backend developer. My goal is to get a internship within 4-5 months.

I came across a online learning program for 'azure'!

My question is
Should I do the azure course or it's not that important for a beginner backend developer.
And please tell me is it important know about cloud computing to become a backend developer???

[smoky quest]

Cloud computing is important for backend developers as it's where most of the workload will run.

With regards to that online program for azure, it depends where you are at. If it's free and you have the time, sure, it might be a good way to familiarize yourself with it

[zinc bobcat]

@smoky quest
Does AWS has more opportunities than azure?

[zinc bobcat]

👍 I will focus on cloud computing from here on...

[smoky quest]

AWS is the largest cloud provider

[smoky quest]

see also https://roadmap.sh/

[zinc bobcat]

@smoky quest hey thanks
That roadmap is very helpful.I didn't knew that I missed a few steps

[dark lintel]

Hi. How are you? What do you recommend to get a remote job while living in Latin America?

[smoky quest]

why not?

[ivory sluice]

they asked "what" to do. i myself have no idea lol

[smoky quest]

lol right. Read too fast.

You look for jobs board in the targeted area and are mindful of the tax implications. The question is so open ended it's difficult to answer.

[sacred swan]

Do you think working a part time job while slowly building programming knowledge and projects at the same time is a good way to become a software engineer of sorts, or would there be some improvements I should try to make like try to become an apprentice somewhere down the road?

I keep on feeling like I'm doing the wrong thing and my friends who are in colleges for CS degrees and such are going to have an easy time and jump ahead of me like I'm nothing.

[ivory sluice]

if you scroll up and read thru the past few day messages you'll see a recent discussion on this topic. tl;dr your friends do have an advantage #career-advice message

[sick steppe]

anyone have a good website to learn python for free

[sacred swan]

I see...

[ivory sluice]

don't mean to be discouraging. i know at least 1 person that is doing an apprenticeship as a developer but they're likely going to pursue uni as well

[sacred swan]

I guess I'm being too hopeful or something. I did not know what I wanted to do until it was already too late for me to go to college around the same time my friends did. I barely looked into how much it would cost. I just know that I can't afford it and nobody is going to buy it for me. I'm not that fortunate.

[ivory sluice]

share your region/country and users can chime in. there is a wide range of price tags for education

[sacred swan]

South Carolina.

I know of a technical college I could go to. It's just even then, I would still accumulate debt.

It's not like I will just magically make an app that will have me set for life or anything. Most things fail. I will just have to grind harder than others to do the same thing they are.

[ivory sluice]

you could have worse debt than student loan debt. if you want to pursue university on a budget you absolutely can. community college for gened requirements, transfer to a public 4-year, apply for all the financial aid & scholarships you can

$$$ of student loan debt can be an investment, if you have a plan and put in the leg work

[copper ore]

I previously ask also this question but I think, Im reading all discussions now rather than asking since perhaps others did researched also. Coding means practice harder than everyone.

[sacred swan]

My high school gpa is 4.1 or 4.3 or something. I probably could have gotten into most colleges if I got good enough scores on the sat/act and such,

I just did not really understand how to even sign up for scholarships or anything. For some reason I expected it all to be handed to me like a child.

[sage pumice]

weighted 5 point scale?

[sacred swan]

yeah

[ivory sluice]

there are career paths that don't also don't have a degree track, like vocational schools. but i don't think they would cross paths with software engineering

[sage pumice]

there are tons of financial aid options too, like fafsa. and plenty of colleges have need-based aid

[ivory sluice]

i can relate, i thought my college education would be paid for me, and didn't understand why it wouldn't be 😂 but if you decide on this route of going to college it definitely can be done (i know people that moved back in with their parents for example)

[ivory sluice]

even with aid college is expensive. if someone is having a hard time making ends meet they absolutely need to look for value

[sage pumice]

of course

[sacred swan]

I was told by some software engineers I know that you don't really need to go to college for a good software job. You just have grind harder. I'm so lost in life as to what I want to do. I thought I was supposed to know by now (I'm 19) but I just don't.

[ivory sluice]

^ what you heard is true. either route you pick it will be a grind though

[sacred swan]

Maybe I should continue with learning programming like I am for 2 months or so and then make a decision at that point or something? I don't even know.

[ivory sluice]

if you're 19 you're barely past the age of normal college entry age

[sacred swan]

I do know that in just one week of learning I was almost at the same point my friend in college was at after 6 weeks into his college. It shows me that I can go faster than people with degrees but the tricky part is getting the jobs without one. I have a feeling some people will just disregard your application if you don't have a degree.

[sage pumice]

that's certainly true, it's a very easy way to filter applicants

[ivory sluice]

yes, they will (many will)

[sacred swan]

Would it be valuable for me to try to meet as many people as I can so that I will have more opportunities for things in general

[ivory sluice]

the points you're raising now have also been discussed a lot recently. I'll see if I can find a link. I think you are dismissing the college route too quickly

[sacred swan]

Possibly...

From what I heard some people come out of college with their degree but barely any experience and they have to learn what needs to be learned anyway.

[summer roost]

it's possible to get a job without a degree. It's a harder path, though. If the college option is available to you, you should take it.

[sage pumice]

many colleges have co-op or internship opportunities, which might make it much easier to get work xp

[summer roost]

yeah - internships and co-ops are incredibly helpful.

but even setting that aside - it's true to some extent that CS grads don't have all the skills that employers need, but employers are used to hiring people with CS degrees, and are used to training them up in the skills that are required for the job. People with CS degrees have, by and large, the same set of weaknesses (no experience working on a single project for a long time, no experience working on a project that someone else had started, etc.)

people without degrees have an entirely different set of weaknesses, and they're different per person.

meaning that onboarding someone without a CS degree requires a more individualized curriculum than onboarding someone with a CS degree, and that's extra cost and work for the company

[sacred swan]

What if dump the college and job idea and focus solely on making the job/business for myself.

There is no guarantee anything works

but at that point, if they fail or are just kind of successful I would still have those as projects under my belt

[summer roost]

that's much, much more work. It's the high risk, high reward option. You have a small chance of being very successful, and a large chance of failing.

90% of startups fail within 5 years.

[vapid jay]

do something on the side, it might take off.. but you wont drop out of college

if you drop out of college and dont succeed, you will be homeless and doing drugs in SF

but if you're rich and have money to fall back on.. you could always resume college later

[summer roost]

and, people who manage to run a successful startup often report that they work 80-100 hour weeks for the first 2 years or so trying to get it off the ground.

[vapid jay]

what are you typing man.. it's been an hour

[sacred swan]

Here is my naïve 19 year old plan. I want to know what you would do to "revise it" or take a more rational approach.

1. Work a part time job while living at my parents.
2. Grind programming with almost all of my extra time (besides time used for small hobbies or hanging out with family/friends)
3. Build up projects which are business ideas. Even if they fail I still can show off what was made.
4. If I get a successful thing going, good for me. I grow from there. If not, I have enough knowledge to get a job and I have projects that will help me get hired into those jobs.

[sacred swan]

I had to think about it. My bad.

[vapid jay]

there's no aspect of this you need to drop out of college for.. but to justify cost of college you need to balance out how well you do in your academics while also maintaining your side gig and projects

[summer roost]

I want to know what you would do to "revise it" or take a more rational approach.
Take CS classes. Even from a community college. Try to get that CS degree. If you're feeling cocky, try to finish it in 3 years instead of 4, or something like that. Try to get internships or co-ops. Do projects in your spare time. If those projects are business ideas, great.

[vapid jay]

one of my friends works at SpaceX now.. to get there he had to become an expert on linux and C++.. 10 years of slogging and working on android kernel.. would've had an easier route if he had just finished college

[smoky quest]

Making a business is a completely different set of skill on top of sw skills you do not have yet. They won't even be appreciated in a lot of companies
My main advice: find your way back to college. See when is the next enrollment, get a student loan or community college or whatever

[vapid jay]

gotta get past that lazy teenager brain man.. I wish I had put more time into being better at programming early on, when I had all the time in the world.. instead of trying to go out with girls and having fun..

[smoky quest]

yolo

[vapid jay]

instead I went the core engineering route and resumed programming at 24.. could've 10xed my value by now if I had just started early..

[sacred swan]

Yeah. I regret not learning sooner but here I am now. 19 is not too too late but it is not early either.

[sage pumice]

you can definitely make the deadline for fall 2022 if you start the college application process now

iirc regular deadlines are like january 1

[vapid jay]

You should.. start.. instead of talking about it

[smoky quest]

you still have plenty of time.

[vapid jay]

set short term goals.. develop your expertise because you figure out the rest of the path.. you dont need to have everything figured out now

[sacred swan]

I know. I just need to get things sorted out so that I am not stressed while started. I have started. Just not started toward trying to get into college yet.

[vapid jay]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV8mIfjwPeM

[sacred swan]

Because I had no clue if that was smart. I don't want debt.

[vapid jay]

so dont take on debt.. go to community college.. get certifications..

[smoky quest]

there is a difference between a credit card debt and an investment for your career.

[summer roost]

what country are you in?

[vapid jay]

you dont need an expensive degree.. expensive degrees are for rich kids that will get jobs through connections and delegate

[sacred swan]

America. State: South Carolina.

USA

[vapid jay]

I know NCSU is good

[summer roost]

in-state tuition at state colleges is usually very affordable.

[vapid jay]

but it's in NC.. dont think you'll get state tuition there..

aye.. watch that video I sent.. sometimes, the person holding you back is yourself.. it's not enough to have good intentions

[sacred swan]

If I retake the sat/act enough times to get a high score on it paired with my gpa of 4.1 (or 4.3 I honestly don't remember) would I qualify for things that would make make college practically free or is that not reasonable? My sibling got free college because her grades were insanely good. Like 4.9 on a 5 point scale.

[sacred swan]

I'll watch it.

[summer roost]

but to put the numbers in some perspective - my (relatively expensive, private) school left me with about $75k in student loans after student aid and scholarships. My first full time software development job paid me $82.5k per year, and my loans were all paid off in under 3 years.

[sacred swan]

I was taught in a way that demonized student loan debt.

[summer roost]

whoever taught you that was absolutely incorrect.

[smoky quest]

maybe it depends on the major? For CS it's worth it in the US

[ivory sluice]

but now you realize they were wrong hopefully?
you don't need to go to an expensive school. community college for gen-ed requirements, transfer those credits to a four-year school and get your bachelor's.

yes you'll still have debt but it doesn't need to be astronomical. I graduated with $24k in student loans from 4 years in a state university

I got no aid and only 1 scholarship, but it was cheap bc I paid in-state tuition rates

[sacred swan]

I guess it really can't hurt to go to a community college or something and transfer out like you said. It is cheaper and better than not having one at all.

I am having a hard time knowing what the steps of everything need to be.

I have so many things I need to do but no clue what process needs ot be taken to get there and every time I build that process there is something else to do and they collide. It becomes really hard to take the steps I need to.

What do you recommend I even do. I'm so lost. You don't have to hold my hand or anything but generally what would the steps be to getting where I need to be.

MAybe I should just write everything I need to do and sort it out.

[sacred swan]

I see. Yeah, I will have to look into the in-state stuff.

[smoky quest]

Make lists and pros/cons. That will help frame the problems, solutions and different paths. It will also give you concrete items to research

[ivory sluice]

yes! you can now start on research and making a plan

[sacred swan]

Alright, I will. It might be difficult because there are so many things I want to do yet you only have 24 hours in a day lol

I guess slowly tackling the things is the best path.

[ivory sluice]

how long ago did you graduate from your high school? would it be worth reaching out to them and asking them for help? they might say no but I would still ask

[smoky quest]

it's better to spend 1h now planning and figuring it out than spending 100h on something you will regret later

[sacred swan]

This year.

Everybody I know is already in college and I am basically going to be a year behind. It's not a great way to look at things but I am competitive. It can be helpful! But it also sucks because I have a bad habit of comparing others success with my own.

[summer roost]

having a degree is worlds better than not having one. It will make the rest of your career much, much easier for you. A lack of a degree will be a permanent anchor that holds you back and limits your earnings and the opportunities available to you. Really, the most rational option for you to pursue is earning a degree. It doesn't much matter what school you get it from - in fact, it barely matters that it's CS instead of, say, math or physics. Having a degree is a strong signal for employers that you're able to commit to something and see it through, which is something many employers prioritize, especially early in your career.

[ivory sluice]

that drive will keep you in the game, getting a degree and pursuing all the opportunities that college provides will keep you in the game.

i'm gonna be an old fart here and say that 1 year is not behind

[summer roost]

Everybody I know is already in college
You'll meet a whole new set of people, and can pride yourself on being ahead of them. I probably don't remember the names of more than 20 people from my high school class. In the last 5 years, I think I've spoken to 4 of them.

[sacred swan]

I basically only speak to 4 right now lmao

[sacred swan]

That's probably true.

[ivory sluice]

it is true, I have decreed it

[sacred swan]

Also, I don't know if you are familiar with the Clifton strengths test but this is what I got. Would you say that these traits will be helpful for me in a career such as this?

(It is a test that is well known and cost 20 dollars.)

I really want to make my own business and such but I guess before one gets there they must get through what is in front of them.

I'll start that planning/research now.

[ivory sluice]

I think it has 0 bearing & worth on your future

[sacred swan]

The test? Yeah. It is more of a direction.

[ivory sluice]

I'm not getting much direction from that screenshot tbh 😂

here's some direction: go study for the SATs and research your local community colleges, local state universities and their process for transferring credits

[sage pumice]

that "strengths" thing looks like a scam

[sacred swan]

I don't think it is. Kind of too late now though.

[summer roost]

you're still a kid. Absolutely nothing is too late, I promise you. 🙂

[sage pumice]

there are plenty of people who've completely switched careers into cs when they were like twice your age

[ivory sluice]

I think he meant the $20

[vapid jay]

I knew this guy who switched from being an english teacher to Cs when he was 39

[sacred swan]

If I keep going at a steady rate of learning and continue working as hard as I can or at least keep on doing productive things with my time, I have no doubt I will outpace almost everybody I know. It's just a matter of DOING it instead of having a big mouth.

[vapid jay]

you are getting distracted.. like too much.. https://www.lifehack.org/articles/featured/whats-stopping-you-from-getting-started-and-what-to-do-about-it.html

[sacred swan]

That article is a distracted if the correct answer is to just start.

Technically. But yes, I am getting distracted.

I'll get on it.

[neon vortex]

So What type of questions are asked in interviews of Google and Facebook

So I am an Indian and I wonder what programming degree I have to take
People call it take a degree but they never day the name of the degree. I am thinking to take Maths in 11th standard

[open condor]

algos and ds

[neon vortex]

So we have to answer those complex questions there ?

[quasi glacier]

If you want the job then yes

[quasi glacier]

Go with BTech CSE or CS I think if you want a job in CS field

You need Physics Chem in +2 for that^

In India if you want to pursue that from IITs then you also need to do JEE.

[smoky quest]

You won't. On average, you are average. It's like the meme about everyone having a higher than average iq.
You are working hard, but so are other people.

[sacred swan]

I won't give up before I start.

I'm not saying they won't work hard and I'm not trying to say they are not, or that I am smarter than them or something.

Plus, everyone thinks someone can't do something if they don't see proof or results. I don't have either of those yet but it doesn't mean I won't.

[smoky quest]

I am not saying you won't succeed. But talking about outpacing everyone else is having a big mouth, as well as being unhealthy. Everyone has a different path, is focusing on different aspects of computer science and whether you are better than some other folks has no bearing on your success. It's not a zero sum game.

[unkempt iron]

Hello I am Ahmad From Pakistan
I am 12 yrs old
I have knowledge of Pygame,Unity,Python,Html,Css,C#
Game development is not a option allowed by my parents.I like to automate stuff and make apps.I tried ML but got lost.What should I focus on to be my career in the Computer Side

[dim tinsel]

Keep programming, focus on school, and once you finish computer science you can do whatever you want :)

[zenith inlet]

Game development is actually a really good way to learn about basic algorithms underlying CS

The same general techniques that are involved in planning a path for an enemy in a game can apply to pathing for robots, or package delivery

Developing games as a career choice isn't a good choice for a lot of reasons, but you can learn a lot about programming and computer science by doing games as practice

It's sort of like how doing sports is very good exercise and keeps you healthy, but it's not realistic for most people to become cricket or football stars

[pastel quail]

since you’re so young, i recommend just exploring many different fields in computer science to see what interests you

[vast shoal]

It's best to spend time working on areas you enjoy. The more fun you have, the more drive you will have to continue learning. So I second @pastel quail's suggestion, try different things and pursue stuff that interests you.

[fickle flax]

Yeah, learning machine learning espeically at a young age is already cool, and understandble to get lost, i think anyone would since it relies heavly on math which that kind of math is only taught around higher education or advance classes in highschool, even though the math can be learned at elementary, its only taught higher.

Yeah as all other said, just keep coding and explore and build projects different areas.. ML is pretty cool and fun, it just takes time to learn, escpially if self taught, but as you get grow in coding career you can maybe come back to it and see if like it.

[marsh oyster]

Hi Guys! I've started learning python and honestly I'm in love with the language. I have a background in psychology but I'm much more interested in automation, ML and software engineering. I'm currently signed up in a 2 months fundamentals Python course as well as the datascientist course in DataQuest. I recently quit my job to pursue career in programming and I'm dedicating 4 hours per day to learn to code. What are the essential skills that I need in order to get hired, according to your experience?

[fickle flax]

Oh thats cool looking into ML, in that case i would say as you learn python, try to really get full grasp of:

• Object orient programming
  -Loops, functions,variables,arrays, and basic datastructure and conditionals (if vs if else)
  These core topics are really important for any career

Also, if online course, i would. say to really quickly excel or improve is to always do more. So instead of just copy and pasting, try to really build small projects or do something differen with what you are learning. For example if learning about loops, can try adding more to what you are learning by solving basic pytohn loop problems online and that will help you to understand better what you are learning.

also, i know for some dedicating 4 hours or more can feel mentally drainning especially since programming is a different mindset, so if feel burned out can just do 1 hour for now and increase slowly

[marsh oyster]

That's a good advice. DataQuest have great problems to solve after each module (takes me 10-30 mins per task) and I think I'm learning fast. I was thinking of creating an ASCII game as my first project?

[fickle flax]

yeah anything you like and that includes topics you learned, and it nice to. keep it small projects (something that wont take too long)

[marsh oyster]

Maybe add a bit of Bandersnatch here and there

I think 1 hour per day is way too little, I just find myself wanting to dive more deeply in the topics

[vast shoal]

For software engineering you would want to be familiar with version control and build automation. I. e. stuff like Git, Github, CI systems, etc., as well as using them to work on code collaboratively. A good way to get experience with stuff like this is by contributing to OSS projects.

[fickle flax]

oss means open source in case wondering

[marsh oyster]

Thanks! I used GitHub during TheOdinProject's fundamentals but sadly they don't have a Python career path. I think it might be interesting for me to view some OSS projects and do testing with the code. Can you recommend any learning materiales/interactive websites that I can utilize to create my portfolio and, well, learn the language?

[potent knoll]

Hey i was learning python what are the best career options in python and how can master Python any free interactive source to learn and excel my career and what the the career paths for python and what are the best way of learning like how to practice for how many hours for a day please suggest

[grand walrus]

hi

this isn't about python really, but what's the difference between a comp. scientist and a software engineer?

[potent knoll]

computer scientist just generalize theories and calculate aspects of software and software system and Software engineer design develop maintain test and evaluate sotwares

[fickle flax]

i dont think it realisitic to master a langauge, you can be good at it but to master means to know everything about a langauge which is very difficult. Python careers from quick google search includes Data science, automation, web dev, backend , and other fields

how many hours a day doesnt really make one better, it more than just hours need to focus on building experience thats how get better. Can try different projects to see what career initerested it, and then focus on that path

[potent knoll]

okay so like what are the best websites to learn python ofc free :p

oh yeah and interactive

thing is i really need a job and i love python idk where to start like you told me to do projects idk anything about it so would you please suggest that would be great

[stray wind]

I'd like to know that too

[fickle flax]

if want job with python or coding in general, need to find what field you are interested in, or just continue to learn python aside while working psrt time

because will hve to build projects that tagret towards that field, because many other students snd people are applying to same job for python so thats why need to focus specifically and build projects related to that

[potent knoll]

okay so i'm unemployed right now so i need to build projects then what are the best projects to work on and the free interactive sites i can learn effectively ? please suggest

[fickle flax]

yeah, like I said, need to focus on a specific career, is that automation? Backend? Frontend? Mobile? Data science? etc then need ot build projects towards that.

once you leran fundamentals of python, can try to build at least 1 project (any you like)along with version conrol and then apply to jobs while exploring areas that interest you, but will still need to build gain expereince towards field interested so that why need to know what career interested in to build project towards that, since many other applicants with experiencce are applying to same position. To get a job fast with python, i cant give much input towards that. This is just general input feedback for software

[near ocean]

It's kinda hard to build automation specific projects however
Currently learning Powershell for work automation and struggling to find something substantial to build, I imagine it would be the same with python

[fickle flax]

oh, i thought pytohn automation include like web scrapping automation . Simple python script with flask backend to store data.

[fluid aspen]

Is Python good only for begginers, or it's good also for professional developers?

[fickle flax]

i know for many, python is much eeasier language to learn at start since it is not type based and also more towards english comapred to java which is typed based

it is used professionaly , depending on company and field. Python i know is mostly used with data science and also R too.

[vapid jay]

oh

well im not really into data science

more into cyber security if that makes sense

[vast shoal]

A software engineer builds software. A computer scientist is an academic who studies the theory of computation, i. e., the mathematical basis for programming, algorithms, data structures, etc. However, an undergraduate degree in CS is sometimes more or less analogous with a software engineering degree, it depends on the school and region how much theory you get into. For example, at my uni we didn't have an SE program, CS was what you studied if you wanted to become a software engineer.

[grand walrus]

thanks man

[vapid jay]

im choosing between cyber or software engineering but mostly cyber i'll see then ig

[vast shoal]

Python is widely used in the industry for various purposes, it's definitely not only a learning tool.

[vapid jay]

which one is better u recommend as a job

[vast shoal]

I'm not very well-versed in cybersecurity, but with a solid foundation in CS or SE, you can probably work in cybersecurity as well, and you have tons of well-compensated opportunities beyond that. However, if cybersecurity is what you really want to do, it might be better to study something focused on that. A CS/SE program will definitely spend a lot of time on topics that have nothing to do with cybersecurity.

[vapid jay]

oh i see well im still in high school its my 11th year

2 years then uni

im kinda planning on making a website for my own

but i don't have that much info yet

[potent knoll]

i like data science if i wanna get a job a data scientist or in that field what do i have to ? like what's the path necessary to take so i can do one project on that field particularly can you please elaborate some interactive websites where i can learn those paths and excel my knowledge that would be much appreciated
thanks

[fickle flax]

one i found is krish naik youtube channel to learn Ds for free, he is also an instructor and self taught. He gives lots of practical insight into Ds like what need to know and career path.
But yeah in general for any ds role, need to know basics if numpy,pandas and data anaylsis and basic math related to the specific ML path learning. Can jsut watch his video Krish Naik ddatascience path to see more what need to know or learn.

Right now im self learning ML too, and i found that most quickest way to learn ML is just like again leaerniing what need to know rather than learning everything which takes long time. So as for the math part, only focus on math related that actually need for the speicif ML path.

As for project, as you watch videos mentioned and get more feedback from others here in this channel, for any project for DS that want to put on resume, it needs to be end to end and show skills company are looking for. For exmaple one project end to end could be kaggle problem dataset, and you apply data cleaning techqniues which is very valuable and also visualization and make backend with flask, also using pipeline, and deploy on cloud and using dockers and well documented readme of the structure of the project etc. That will make project stand out alot

[potent knoll]

thanks

[nova aurora]

Should I go for Software Engineering?

[woeful spruce]

ummm...sure go for it

[near ocean]

Gonna need more information if you want better advice

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384> probably (definitely) unapproved advertising above

[icy berry]

hello, we dont offer advertisement on our server

please remove it

if you want to talk more about the finer detail of this @vestal prairie you can contact us over email or DM

[ember quartz]

Hey guys, Im new to coding and have been learning scientific computing with python under freecodecamp. Question: is freecodecamp learners looked down upon in the industry?

[vapid jay]

!silence

[inner wren]

✅ silenced current channel for 10 minute(s).

✅ unsilenced current channel.

[vapid jay]

hi

[dry plover]

yo

So if you are actually going full stop into economics....programming can be a cert course via 3rd party

You don't need to go to school for programming if you're using it as way to be more hirable.....

plus you can use those skills as a backup to make program for your field to make life easier for you

[vapid jay]

anyways so i understand that i can get really good at programming without needing a degree

my problem is : most jobs ask for a computer science degree or a relative degree , and i dont think ecconomics is a relative feild to CS

i am not planning to drop out of ecconomics , i can manage to learn ecconomics and programming at the same time they are not that hard

[dry plover]

There is certification programs that hold universally just as good as a degree

[rustic badge]

Insention what is your end goal?

[vapid jay]

im just not sure if i should continue on with studying programming or no , because i am scared that i wont get accepted in a job since they all ask for a degree in computer science or a relative degree

[dry plover]

I have a job right now while working on my degree in the VR field based off certs in C# & C++ and javascript.

[vapid jay]

what are those ?

[dry plover]

different high language for computers.

well except javascript that was a waste of my time lol it's rarely used in VR field

[vapid jay]

i want to work in programming because i really love it , the problem is i am a student in ecconomics

[dry plover]

You can get one degree and then go back prrrrrr just get good on the side take a few proctored exams to get certified at your current levels at the time

[rustic badge]

and as an econ student i take it you're also interested in that field.

so find an angle that intersects both

[dry plover]

but like gorgie said what's your end goal here?

[vapid jay]

Where do i take those , what university to take those

[rustic badge]

programming is essentially a means to an end

can you elaborate on what it is about programming you love so much?

[dry plover]

^gorgie is right a means to end and as far as certs goes, a few companies offer online or in person proctored exams not just universities

[vapid jay]

My goal : To get a job in programming field
My problem : im an ecconomics student
the question : should i keep study for programming

[rustic badge]

going for certs et al is futile if you dont know what you're applying them towards first

[dry plover]

@rustic badge goood point lol

what is it you want out of both worlds and how do they both interact with your life.

[smoky quest]

If you go at a school for a degree in economics, the expected outcome is for you to get a job in economics.
No different than trying to get a job as a movie director while doing a degree in economics

[vapid jay]

yeah so i should just stop studying programming right?

[vapid jay]

im already learning about web dev

[dry plover]

@smoky quest kinda but some jobs just want you to have a degree overall to show you can work in a formal setting I got a guy in my dept with a psychology degree and humanitarians bachelor tapping away in C# for the company lol

[vapid jay]

wait so you are not a computer science major?

[rustic badge]

i say just stop, altogether, for a few mins, and conceptualize to the T what you want. then proceed from there

[smoky quest]

• if you plan on looking for a job pure software dev, then your degree in economics won't be useful
• If you are interested in jobs leveraging both skills, it might be handy to continue
• if you are interested in jobs strictly in economics without programming, then programming won't be that useful

That said, knowing to write code and process data can be an interesting skill to have in your day to day life

[ivory sluice]

@dry plover please share your country/region, industry, when you joined the industry, etc.

[dry plover]

technically now I am a CS major I decided to get an actual degree just cause I want one, but I didn't need one I was doing things to computers before the dawn of facebook lol

I am currently living in the US I have been working in VR just before oculus got bought out by facebook.... Was doing some rogue things beforehand I was younger and angrier lol

[smoky quest]

I can assure you they are the exception and there must be something else. Most companies are looking for degrees in a relevant field

[near ocean]

its possible, you dont want to go through it

[smoky quest]

you can find a job without a degree. It's possible. but your career will suffer greatly and you will miss on a lot of opportunities

[vapid jay]

my only question is : is it possible to get a job if i dont have a degree in computer science but can do the technical stuff

[dry plover]

@smoky quest Oh I am not going to argue a degree in the field is far more beneficiary but sometimes companies like to look outside as well for a different perspective as well....that

that's a 1 in 200 chance of getting a job like that

[smoky quest]

possible, yes. Advisable, no

[near ocean]

probable: again no *

[ivory sluice]

so you were at oculus in a tech role or non-tech role? in either case already being an employee you had your foot in the door. and since you're on a CS degree track now that will increase your future prospects as well

[dry plover]

yeah you usually have to get a good connection but on a random chance basis no

[vapid jay]

well great i just wasted time on learning programming

[near ocean]

why
just use it for other things, hobbies, etc

[ivory sluice]

so let's be mindful of this when sharing our experiences, there are many people being misled into thinking that knowing how to code is an easy track into becoming a software engineer, no matter their educational background or lack thereof @dry plover

[dry plover]

@ivory sluice oh no I wasn't official oculus I was a consultant after the first dev kit came out I rewrote some of their programming and sent it back to them....they liked my ideas

[near ocean]

or to automate boring finance things like excel stuff

[ivory sluice]

consulting.. i can definitely see someone going from consulting into swe

[ivory sluice]

not a waste of time at all. what was the motivation for learning it?

[dry plover]

yeahhhh I was a more brazen and easily irritated person back then lol I literally was learning code by doing some federal no no's got lucky had a few things happened and changed things around...But I would like to say @vapid jay these people are right, I am a unique case to be honest....plus a bit of ubermensch personality so I tend to be the type to tell people to push the limit

[vapid jay]

-getting a job in it
-loving it

[dry plover]

So why or how did you end up in economics?

[ivory sluice]

okay, if you scroll thru yesterday's conversations in this thread (or this whole past week actually) you'll see a lot of good advice from professionals, definitely take a look

you could easily switch majors, or if you're like 90% complete, add a CS minor. or double major with CS

[vapid jay]

i didnt realize my love for programming till i late

[ivory sluice]

it's not too late

[vapid jay]

it is , its my third year in ecconomics

[dry plover]

lmao that's understandable but our friend mina is right it's never too late....plus having knowledge of both would make you flexible

[near ocean]

my guy, fintech is the hottest thing right now

[dry plover]

dude go for an associates in CS then while you finish off your economics

[smoky quest]

Graduate, wrap it up and then look to further your education into a more computational oriented degree. Having both qualifications could be a great start for your career

[smoky quest]

I didn't even know you could do that in the US

[ivory sluice]

if you're in your third year i'd recommend just adding a minor or a double major to your current degree

[vapid jay]

another thing though , i dont think i can even study for CS , because i studied in the art section in high school , so i cant join CS even if i wanted to......

[dry plover]

yeah higher paying jobs are looking at people with dual degrees like hotcakes

[vapid jay]

there is no hope for me

[ivory sluice]

what? what does that have to do with anything. are you in a 4-year university in the US?

[dry plover]

@smoky quest you can but it's really frowned upon and not an open thing....you gotta have a 3.5 gpa or higher to even consider it usually

[smoky quest]

That is highly suspicious. I would recommend to double check on that

[dry plover]

definitely double check with your advisor....that's sus

[vapid jay]

im not from the US , im from egypt in here the education system is different , in a certain year you choose what subjects you wana study , there are the science subjects , and the art subjects

the science subjects : math , chermstry , phisics etc
the art subjects : history , psychology , geography etc

[ivory sluice]

aha, good to know. egypt.

[dry plover]

hmm...that's a bit trickier

[vapid jay]

sadly i was in the art section , i got the highest grade in my entire school , but i am still from the art section

[dry plover]

Do you plan on staying in egypt or working abroad?

[vapid jay]

so i cant enter CS , i am not sure if other universities outside egypt can accept me

[dry plover]

With a valid visa and passport depending on the host country you should be okay....should be it's been a while since I looked at egypt on a political scale

[vapid jay]

Yes but will other universities accept me because i graduated from the art section...

im kinda depressed because of it tbh idk what to do

[thick crag]

@vapid jay You don't need a CS degree to become a great dev, although the concepts you will learn studying it will make you a more principled problem solver.

[dry plover]

Depends on the country....I know Tokyo U probably would, most American schools should

[ivory sluice]

(uh bear in mind the cost of tuition in American universities)

[thick crag]

If you are set on studying it I know programs in the US and Canada will consider your application.

[vapid jay]

i believe in my abilities i can learn things kinda fast , the thing is will it be worth it to learn all of those things , because most jobs require you to have a cs degree

[dry plover]

lol but as mina likes to remind me yeah american schools are not cheap

Oh vicks is right Canada has some great programmers and programs for studying CS from what I have heard as well

[vapid jay]

i own an online business and i have saved some money since high school , i think i got enough money

[ivory sluice]

do you have $60k per year x 4 years = $240k USD?

[dry plover]

@vapid jay most american schools avg between 40-80k a year

[vapid jay]

plus the cost of living of course

well its gonna be hard to get this money but i think i can manage it

[shadow moss]

while the money is important, before that, you need to get accepted to the school

[dry plover]

And the host country needs to okay your visa

[vapid jay]

i already have like 170k saved up

[dry plover]

Which can take awhile depending on situations i.e. covid restrictions and more

[ivory sluice]

i never had that kinda money, i'll stop advising you since you are more successful than me 😉

[dry plover]

I would have that kinda money if I would stop spending it all on computer parts XD jk jk I am lucky to make near 90k a year depending

[vapid jay]

thanks , but no please dont stop advising me i need it

i think if i focus on my online business , and maybe lend some money from my family i can save up to 240k

[shadow moss]

Step 1 is get accepted. Step 2 is pay for it.

[vapid jay]

okay can i get accepted online or do i have to travel?

[dry plover]

hmmm we seem to be forgetting about living expenses depending where you are at those can cost an arm and a leg too

[mental yoke]

What would y'all say is the name for a team that develops applications to monitor software health

[vapid jay]

you know what i will just research it from here , thank you so much for the advice

[shadow moss]

Depends on University, check their websites

[dry plover]

You might be able to get away with online

[vapid jay]

i will figure out a way to live cheap

[smoky quest]

And please re-double check with going into a CS degree.
I am surprised it's that rigid in Egypt given my past experiences there.

I am also pretty sure you aren't the first student to change their mind and wanting to change career

[dry plover]

@vapid jay in the US we have expensive and expensiver lol just be careful and do research before looking at a place

[mental yoke]

community college ain't bad and it's cheap

[shadow moss]

For foreign students, the getting accepted part is hard part. The demand far outweighs supply.

[mental yoke]

With 170k you can easily go to a community college even considering out of state tuition fees

[dry plover]

@shadow moss trueeeeee

[vapid jay]

man im really depressed right now , i have fallen victim to online advertising , as everyone online was saying that you can get a job in cs without a degree :/

[mental yoke]

you can, I did. I have a marketing degree 😂

[shadow moss]

That’s very country dependent.

[dry plover]

You can but it's harder

[smoky quest]

might as well check out europe instead. Much cheaper and closer

[vapid jay]

i have wasted the past 6 month learning programming , now i feel so dumb

[mental yoke]

true, I mean I was only speaking on the whole US thing

[vapid jay]

wait is thats true?

[dry plover]

it's not a waste.....it's a very useful skill to have overall

[mental yoke]

learning programming isn't a waste of time brother, you can apply it to many different things in life

[ember quartz]

is free code camp looked down upon?

[smoky quest]

you still have plenty of time

[smoky quest]

it's not that it's looked down. It's just that it is not the same education than a degree

[dry plover]

I didn't start out in a field I started out doing dumb stuff for a couple of bucks then I grew up and wanted to do something more with it

[shadow moss]

It depends on your country, some countries culturally value degree type more then others, India is one I’m thinking of where degree type can matter heavily.

[mental yoke]

does anyone have an answer to this?

[dry plover]

India is heavy about their degrees

[astral ermine]

Systems Analyst?

[smoky quest]

monitoring / observability

[vapid jay]

Okay guys , what if instead of paying money to go outside to study , what if i go outside to find a job?

[shadow moss]

Go outside where?

[vapid jay]

idk why i said go outside , i meant travel

[mental yoke]

This isn't career advice but if you have that much saved up and haven't traveled you should

[dry plover]

In the US we need degrees as non degree jobs tend to not really go anywhere financially however, depends on your country

[shadow moss]

Relocate? Again, very destination country specific. Getting visas for US is very difficult

[smoky quest]

monitoring / observability.

Sorry @dry plover for the ping

[vapid jay]

i just wanna die lol

[mental yoke]

I was thinking something similar

[dry plover]

hey don't be sorry @smoky quest it;s just accidental love lol

[smoky quest]

there is a whole industry around it: datadog, dynatrace, new relic, grafana... And tools with prometheus, collectd, graphite, nagios...

[shadow moss]

I don’t know of other countries except no one would accept my request to leave the US

[ember quartz]

I have a kinesiolgy background and current working full time from home while learning python from free code camp on the side. I hope to enter this field but not sure if free camp code is enough

Anyone have any suggestions on how I should best approach it?

[vapid jay]

i have another option though , i was thinking about giving up on the dream of becoming a programmer , and focus on my online business

[smoky quest]

fyi, it's even worse in europe

[shadow moss]

Where are you located?

[mental yoke]

I'm working with 2 teams right now, one develops aws stuff on top of sumologic and the other provides support for that. I was having trouble kind of pinning down the exact word while talking with a friend

[ember quartz]

Canada

[dry plover]

@ember quartz get some certs to back you up at least if you are going non traditional route

[near ocean]

freecodecamp alone is not going to be enough, in fact any one resource alone is never going to be enough
you need a collection of projects

[smoky quest]

@mental yoke , sounds more like devops or SRE

[ember quartz]

what are some certs you recommend?

[vapid jay]

but choosing that will make me depressed for a couple of weeks :/

[shadow moss]

Also need another language

[dry plover]

@smoky quest that is true also, but Europe has honeslty always been kinda like that since the 60's

[mental yoke]

I would recommend AWS

[woeful spruce]

so what field are you trying to get into exactly?

[woeful spruce]

AWs does seem in demand, how about the Google Cloud Certificates? I want the Big Data certificate

[smoky quest]

if you have an online business, being able to develop and write code can be very handy

[ember quartz]

Dev Ops

[mental yoke]

From my experience and speaking with a senior dev, AWS is more widely used

[dry plover]

@ember quartz look up certs for C, C++ , python pretty much the top 10 languages pick at least 4 and try to get a mid level or high level cert for at least 2 of them

[shadow moss]

GCP is in distant third

[vapid jay]

the only reason i might consider taking a freecodecamp thing is to just put it on my CV when im applying to jobs , but i am pretty sure i already know the kind of stuff they teach

[shadow moss]

It’s AWS, Azure and GCP in that order. And GCP is way behind.

[woeful spruce]

yea, Azure is also in the mix

[near ocean]

the nice thing about freecodecamp is that they give you projects to do to "pass the modules", you can easily pimp those out and put them on your github

[vapid jay]

its not about the amount of languages you know , it depends on the feild though

[dry plover]

eww you said the nasty Azure word lol

[mental yoke]

Learning one is hard, learning all 3 is even harder, I would focus on AWS first and then if u want to learn more from there you can. AWS would be the most valuable tho IMO

[woeful spruce]

I hear good things about Google Cloud courses. I imagine more companies will start implementing it

[ember quartz]

Im not exactly familiar with AWS. What do they teach and which field is it best for?

[shadow moss]

Doubt it. They don’t understand enterprise.

[vapid jay]

i already have websites built with react js i can put those on my cv , but no one will accept me cuz im not a CS major

[woeful spruce]

I have seen many job descriptions asking for it

[mental yoke]

Google's API docs make me vomit 🤮

[dry plover]

@vapid jay more languages mean you are more flexible across a project board....I am learning more on python right now because the C++ team isn't behind but the python devs are

[near ocean]

build better fancier more complex things

[woeful spruce]

but we shall see. It is either the IBM or Google Big Data cert for me. Amazon's learning path seems disorganized to me.

[shadow moss]

Last company was on GCP. What a show it was. It’s asked for more because a few companies have been Oracle hoodwinked into trying it.

[dry plover]

give em the old razzle dazzle lol

Oracle ah the sweet devils symphony of what not to become

[vapid jay]

i only know like 4 languages i dont think i need more for web dev , javascript, java , python , php

[woeful spruce]

I only know Python

[dry plover]

@vapid jay CSS: would be good for you to know

[mental yoke]

Uhm, I haven't really looked at any native Amazon courses for their AWS stuff, but I'm not really saying to go for the cert because of how easy it is to learn, but because of how much it's used

[shadow moss]

GCP executive is 15 year former Oracle executive

[woeful spruce]

how fluent do you have to be in these other languages?

[shadow moss]

right now GCP is running around and offering massive discounts to anyone who will use them

[vapid jay]

i already know css and html , i just dont consider them to be a programming languages thats why i didnt mention them

[woeful spruce]

I also know SQL, but that is more Query Language

[shadow moss]

so I've seen more and more companies using them just because 💰 most of engineers quit to not to put up with it, I left my last job over GCP

[dry plover]

and since everything is moving over to cloud and possibly in 20 years quantum computing we are going to see the birth of some new languages I expect

[mental yoke]

Also, a lot of their AWS services are pretty self explanatory IMO, it's mainly the names that you would have to get accustomed to, but their use cases for the stuff they offer is pretty open to whatever u wanna do

[woeful spruce]

but I am into data

[woeful spruce]

figures that they would inflate the requirements. They suggested that you have one year practical experience with AWS before going for the certificate.

[mental yoke]

I was looking at quantum languages the other day. Couldn't wrap my head around it

[vapid jay]

what are quantum languages i have never heard of those ?

[dry plover]

@mental yoke it's the meth of traditional computer languages once you start learning it

[woeful spruce]

ughhhh.....more stuff to learn == more certificates. My brain will be burnt out in 10 years trying to keep up

[mental yoke]

Uh, I mean, depends how quick you learn, they have a pdf on what to study for the lowest level cert

It's pretty abstract, you don't have to get into the weeds

[vapid jay]

are you guys all a CS majors?

[dry plover]

too be fair though I doubt we'll be writing it direct as in comparison smarter parser's and dumb AI writing it for us over a more traditional style language

[mental yoke]

tell me more pls LOL

[shadow moss]

I don't have a degree but I've been in the industry for long time

[vapid jay]

what degree do you have

[dry plover]

@mental yoke those that pioneer the field for quantum languages are going to be cyber rockstars I know that much

[mental yoke]

or they'll be crucified when quantum computers crash the crypto economy x)

[dry plover]

@shadow moss same I am not just working on my degree all these years later just to say look ma I did it I spent money on stuff I already knew lol

[woeful spruce]

nice. You are a good source of info. Thanks.

[mental yoke]

Thanks man, good luck in your studies

[shadow moss]

BTW, most companies are cool with AWS experience, they realize it's most popular

[woeful spruce]

thanks, I'll need it while juggling my full-time role, ugh

[dry plover]

@mental yoke I got 5 on it that Quantum is going to be used by crypto before those who end up trying to debase and destabilize it

[mental yoke]

I'm kinda in a similar boat, I wanna go to MIT for CS grad school. It would be hard to get accepted but I've been watching their free lectures and it seems like I would learn a lot in that environment

[woeful spruce]

I know, everyone loves Amazon and ETL tools for Data Engineer roles. ETL ETL ETL because there are disparate sources everywhere. I guess the days of centralizing might a figment.

[mental yoke]

• it would be expensive, idk

[woeful spruce]

MIT == set for life and fast track to high $$$$

[dry plover]

it's going to be an interesting new generation in computing though.....I am doing it just cause I need to imply to my GF's children not everyone can just push their way into a field

[mental yoke]

You said you know some SQL, you can start looking at how to use it with amazon's RDBS for starters

[woeful spruce]

yup, I know SQL pretty well (mainly from MS Access and Oracle)

[mental yoke]

download dbeaver and get yourself comfortable with RDBS and then try out DynamoDB

[woeful spruce]

and SQL Lite

[dry plover]

MS is the devil = True

[woeful spruce]

ok, I shall do that

[mental yoke]

completely ignores the fact we've been talking about amazon for the past 20 x)

[dry plover]

Amazon is the lesser devil we all know and love

[mental yoke]

I'm gonna have to heartily disagree. Microsoft's sins are quite literally in the past

[dry plover]

@mental yoke I would say yeah if they'd stop handing my IP over to the NSA every other day of the week lol

[mental yoke]

Aw cmon man, don't act like amazon gives a fuck about you either

simply don't have an IP x)

[dry plover]

shhh the smiley face cares lol jk jk I dislike them as much as I do FB and MS

[mental yoke]

So, you use windows?

[dry plover]

@mental yoke while good sir that is doable both physically and software wise that is a serious federal offense.
Also I run all Ubuntu, Win10, OSX and ArchLinux

[mental yoke]

just as a heads up, look at how amazon bills for different services so u dont accidentally do something that would charge u

[mental yoke]

wait, not having an IP is illegal? Really? Wtf..

[shadow moss]

not having an IP is impossible and having internet

[dry plover]

technically not having a MAC address would make it illegal

[mental yoke]

I have a similar setup, ubuntu server on my pi, arch vm on my win10 pc, and osx for work

[shadow moss]

not having a MAC address isn't illegal, nothing would work though

[dry plover]

You know back in the day when 98 was around they use to actually strip the MAC and use some crazy ass hacks to make it read as their own....that's a felony ye the olden days of hacking

That was when the govt was just dipping it s toes in the cybercrimes issue back when they thought it still ran on vacuums and diodes

[shadow moss]

https://tenor.com/view/ncistwoidiotonekeyboard-gif-18168462

[dry plover]

https://giphy.com/gifs/YQitE4YNQNahy

[mental yoke]

Both of these is what it looks like when I code, I promise I'm not just banging my head against the desk trying to debug my code for the 20th time today

[dry plover]

Hey at least you are doing it sober....some of my best code was while drinking

least drunk me thought so....

[mental yoke]

Turns out sober and hungover you didn't appreciate when you ran a rand number function to obliterate your hard drive, eh

[dry plover]

hey just saying that sys32 file was looking mighty suspect

[mortal wedge]

This is one of the stupidest scenes I've seen in anything. Almost as much as the conclusion to that scene where the protagonist saves the day from the hack attempt by unplugging the monitor

[dry plover]

lol that'll stop them....cause trojans, keyloggers and membugs don't work when you unplug stuff xD

[mental yoke]

I've been watching videos on unobfuscating viruses. I didn't think they were as simple as they seem to be once decoded. It's kind of dumb

[dry plover]

My favorite thing is when they bring back ancient viruses and worms thinking it's something new

[mental yoke]

I saw one that had about 20k lines of repeatedly calculating a tangent, and hidden in there was an encoded string containing the actual virus code

also the first 30 or so lines were just filled with something like time.sleep(0)

[dry plover]

My buddy is taking cybersecurity classes and trying for his ethical hackers license....I let him test his skills on my computer he tried giving me a ram bug that persist until you flash the bios and remove the ram

He thought he was doing something new lmao, I had to show him my old floppy collection of viruses I wrote in 98

[mental yoke]

mofo was like, "what the fuck is a floppy disk and how did they get it soft enough to be floppy"

[dry plover]

@jagged juncoid he's barely 22ish he barely knew that we had to burn CD's at one point for programs lol

[mental yoke]

Im 23 but I've been using computers all my life

[dry plover]

He's a cool kid but he's a little new school so I am teaching him to understand programming from the beginning.

[mental yoke]

My earliest wee memories are of me connecting to dial up

[dry plover]

Lmao that noise is forever haunted I practically grew up computers my dad had win 3.1 and then 98 my first was a 95 all the way to now....I love computers I love making and destroying things with them

I am hoping @mental yoke That quantum computing will bring a new wild west era to computing and shake the market up again....we need a market shakeup bad

[mental yoke]

Yeah I feel like since it's so theoretical right now it's hard to imagine real world applications. Wouldn't it be really good for something like advanced computer graphics?

[dry plover]

I am hoping to see advanced BMI usage to be honest and see where it takes the VR field

[mental yoke]

what's bmi

[dry plover]

Brain Machine Interface

Matrix wont make itself

[mental yoke]

I mean, the best VR /is/ the one we have in our heads

[balmy mural]

I think the conversation has gone quite a bit off topic, should maybe move to one of the off topic channels

[native narwhal]

Hi guys newbie here. So I see jobs with python and django are for big companies, I guess small companies use things like WordPress etc.
But the big companies jobs have a lot of requirements so it's hard for new developers to get any python django jobs. What do you think, any advices for me, how should I approach the path to lending such dev job?
Thank you

[smoky quest]

It's a numbers game. Apply to as many company as you can.
If you get a low amount or no reply at all after 20-30 applications, then try to understand why, improve and iterate

[tranquil finch]

I'd probably get your stuff reviewed ahead of time

[native narwhal]

Sorry I don't understand

Do you mean the application CV

[tranquil finch]

yeah

[shadow moss]

Smaller companies likely don’t use Django if they build web apps

[native narwhal]

@shadow moss but larger companies job positions are almost always looking for experienced people and I mean knowing not just python and django but heavy into databases and even javascript

I was wondering how would I get a job but I guess time will tell since I will tell

[smoky quest]

large companies do definitely look for junior people

[gritty rivet]

I have a friend who had about a year of experience as a data engineer but did very little hands-on work with Django and landed a job at a Django-oriented startup with the understanding that he'd be doing a lot of learning of Django on the job. So it's possible.

[balmy bramble]

Does someone mind telling me how they got their first job aka internship, currently job hunting and I need some inspiration per se*

[pseudo helm]

per se

My experience getting my first dev job is, well, a dusty old story. But I will tell you what I look for in an intern / entry level: I'm looking for a voracious learner. When I ask them "what do you want to learn next?" they have an answer on the tip of their tongue. I like seeing open source work, but it isn't required for entry-level. Otherwise, I'm very flexible on qualifications for that level because they're meant to be taught things.

The last three interns I had came to me either via a direct mentorship (I met them and offered to meet with them regularly to give advice), were in a bootcamp (there was a free one next to my building), or met them when I was judging some capstone projects at a local university.

I've met others at hackathons I've run, but helped them get on some other teams not mine.

[balmy bramble]

Oh that is very helpful, I get kinda worried everytime I see these youtubers with their complex projects and I wonder if I'm ready or not

[pseudo helm]

Meh. If you're looking for entry level or internship, don't even worry about comparing yourself to anyone, let alone some YouTuber.

If you can, work on projects in public on GitHub. Not other people's stuff as that might be too much for you early on, but if you take an online class or follow along with a video, make sure you make that code public.

I don't care so much about the quality, it just shows me you are learning. And that's important to me.

Best of luck though as the first job in IT is the hardest to get. Once you get that, the world opens up a lot more.

[balmy bramble]

Thanks! That's what I've heard from different sources

[smoky quest]

youtubers' goals are not necessarily aligned with their audience. So be very careful about what you take away from them

There are a lot of incentives to project wealth and success and making projects bigger than they actually are in the pursue of viewership

[pseudo helm]

That's the truth. I would look for alternatives for sure.

[balmy bramble]

Alright I will keep that in mind

[native narwhal]

If you were to choose just one of this frameworks which do you think would have more job openings in your opinion Tensorflow or PyTorch?

[smoky quest]

keras

No one hire based on the framework. It's about the skills

So use the framework which enables you to demonstrate the most skills

[shadow moss]

What is your degree in again?

[native narwhal]

Business Management

[shadow moss]

So look at either then

Machine Learning/Deep Learning/AI tends to be very niche career field, it's mostly occupied with those with STEM masters/PhD

[agile crystal]

I was wondering: would it be appropriate in an interview to ask "If my qualifications and experience don't meet this position, could I be considered for another position that I qualify better for?"

[shadow moss]

You could say that, risky move because you might be signaling you don't think your qualified. Most places will auto consider you, I've been on hiring side several times where we are like "X doesn't meet this but that open position would work"

[agile crystal]

I knoww but I really want to work for the company - but ok I can this question

[elfin field]

I really want to work for Google as developer.......

[smoky quest]

I would question your interest in the position then and if you aren't going to pull in a fast transfer

[smoky quest]

So if you fail the interview or it comes up in a discussion, then yeah, you can sorts of talk about how you really like that company and would love to be able to contribute in any capacity. But if you start with that, you may scare of the recruiter/manager

[agile crystal]

So I guess, how do recruiters/managers like to hear from their interviewees that they want to join the organization because x, y, and z?

[smoky quest]

• They want you to be excited about the team and position you would be joining.
• The corollary to that is you should interview with the actual team you are interested in.
• If you already talk about interviewing with other teams, it means either you have your sights on another team or that you are already planning on failing the interview

So you can say you are motivated about the company and stuff but you should also be motivated by the team and role

[eternal kelp]

-_-

[visual marsh]

^_^

[minor bough]

pls answer this

if i get a job offer from a usa tech company

who will sponsar my visa ?

[smoky quest]

whoever employs you

[minor bough]

thanku very much for telling me

i really appreciate that 😄

[frigid fable]

I wanna get a job

[minor bough]

WORK HARD

[eternal kelp]

lalalalalalalala

teech me how to do python

[minor bough]

STEP ON ME

[eternal kelp]

AYYYY

[inner wren]

@hexed urchin Per Rule 6, your invite link has been removed. If you believe this was a mistake, please let staff know!

Our server rules can be found here: https://pythondiscord.com/pages/rules

[true turtle]

@hexed urchin Do not advertise your server here. We are not an ad-board. Please read our rules .

[inner forge]

hi guys

[crimson verge]

should i persue my career as a data scientist or a python developer?what is the diffrece between these roles and what are the pros and cons of both?

[peak halo]

I work as a data scientist in the United States. My job involves a decent amount of Python programming. If you're interested in math and statistics, you might enjoy being a data scientist. I suspect that general Python developer positions will be easier to come by, but you would probably need to know other languages as well.

[crimson verge]

i dont like statistics that much

what do i need to study for becoming a geral python developer ?

do i need to know pandas as well?

[peak halo]

In the United States, you usually need a computer science degree to get a job as a developer or data scientist. My degree is in computer science, with a data science concentration.

Pandas is one of the libraries I use most frequently, but I think it's unlikely that I would use it if I were not a data scientist.

[crimson verge]

even i have a cse degree from india @peak halo

[peak halo]

I can't comment on the job market in India.

[crimson verge]

It jobs are there in every country

[peak halo]

I think it's important that I not misinform you, and I really only know about job hunting for data scientist positions in the United States.

[crimson verge]

is data science boaring and how much experience will i need to get a job as a datascientist @peak halo

[peak halo]

My current job is the only one I have had in industry. I have the degree I mentioned earlier, a three-month research fellowship, and wrote a paper (currently in submission) about a data science topic.

It is unlikely that I would have gotten this job if I had not written the paper.

[crimson verge]

does anyone here know anything about python developers role?

[peak halo]

@crimson verge I removed one of your messages as it was off-topic for this channel. See #data-science-and-ml.

[crimson verge]

no one is responding on that channel

[peak halo]

The channel will most likely become more active in the next few hours.

[crimson verge]

ok

so can you tell me more about python developerrs role?

[near ocean]

thats incredibly vague, you're going to have to be more specific if you want decent feedback
python is used in literally any industry you can imagine

[crimson verge]

thats right

but i have heard that after coming of js the python web developers job has decreased

and today it is only used for data science and Ml

thats what i am asking

[near ocean]

so you're asking specifically for data science and machine learning roles?

[crimson verge]

no

i find statistics very frustratting

so i am asking shoul i go for genral python developes job?

are there enough jobs for them?

and what topics should i study for that

[near ocean]

in that case refer to ^ and consider narrowing down the breadth of your question

[crimson verge]

ok

are there enough positions for genral python developers role ? and which topics should i study to get into that position?

[ivory sluice]

have you looked at the job market in your specific region in India? online job boards? that would give you an idea of what companies are looking for from candidates

[vapid jay]

stats is a lot more chill as a job in most cases

[crimson verge]

dont you find it boaring to work with all those charts and graphs?

[vapid jay]

Well yeah that's a different issue, but a lot of data science stuff doesn't require you to do calc by hand is what I mean

[near ocean]

There's no such thing as general x developer, companies use specific technology to meet their business needs
You should look into the different tech stacks companies use with Python and how industries differ from one another in what stack they use

[crimson verge]

ok

so is it true that after the advent of javascript python is not used for web development anymore?

[near ocean]

no, nobody said that

[crimson verge]

but today if you search on internet you will find more jobs in javascript than python

specially for webdev

[peak halo]

javascript is used for code that executes in the user's browser, and is pretty much the only language for that. But a lot of websites use Python for server-side code.

[near ocean]

ofcourse you'll find more webdev positions asking for JS, its basically the only language used in the frontend...

[peak halo]

You seem to say this as though they should already know that, but they came here to get information.

[near ocean]

if you look at the dev survey on SO you'll see that flask is the third most commonly used web framework for backend with django right below it,
filtering for professionals it drops a bit but that's still #5 most commonly used
https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#most-popular-technologies-webframe

[limber spade]

H

[crimson verge]

should i go for a data scientist or python developers job

?

[ivory sluice]

you expressed earlier distaste for statistics, so take that into account. are there jobs specifically called "python developer" in your region?

[buoyant seal]

That's half way lie and true

For frontend development yeah, javascript dominates.
For backend development, anything is better than javascript in my opinion ;b

[shadow moss]

Plenty of companies use Node backend. It’s attractive to have single language for both front end and back end. Also, there is a lot to complain about with Node but it’s plenty fast.

[near ocean]

If you hate statistics you can't be a datascientist, that's like saying you wanna be a dive instructor but you hate the water

[crimson verge]

That maybe true but maybe that's because I don't know much about data science right now

I am just exploring my interests right now

[near ocean]

are you in uni or are you younger

[crimson verge]

I am currently doing a job

[near ocean]

that doesnt tell me much, are you done with education or in education right now or yet to start

[crimson verge]

I have completed my engineering 2 yrs ago

Now I am doing a job in tcs

But my domain Is sap so I am thinking of switching to python

That's why I am asking which field should I choose

In python

[near ocean]

thats not something anyone here can answer, we cant tell you what to go for lol
best we can do is share experiences and you can decide, but you have to ask about them, this isnt onesided

[near ocean]

Images without context arent relevant to this channel
try #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[lavish elm]

ok

[junior dew]

hey guys, what would you recommend to learn if you were to become an AI developer?

ping on reply pls

[shadow moss]

A lot of math, generally this is field mostly occupied by those with advanced degree

[junior dew]

what kind of math/degrees

[shadow moss]

Masters or PhD in math or Computer Science. A lot of Linear algebra but it changes. A acquaintance who does this explained it to me and I didnt have a clue. They have Master in CompSci from state Tech University and they did research with someone while getting it.

[junior dew]

i see

[thorn obsidian]

please help me por favor

[near ocean]

This isnt the right channel for that my guy, this is #career-advice

[thorn obsidian]

i don know rite chanel, just joined

[ivory sluice]

see #❓｜how-to-get-help and also learn how to use code blocks instead of screenshots 🙂 to get better help

oh it's multiple choice

[thorn obsidian]

it a homework but i just start this course, i don understand hardly any what it mean

raelly need a guide or teacher idek

[ivory sluice]

open a help channel and i'll walk you through it. #help-ramen

[thorn obsidian]

ok gracias

[boreal hamlet]

Hey there

[wanton belfry]

Anyone here transition from a network engineer role to a developer/software engineer role? If so, did you have any difficulties or road blocks? I’ve been in IT for about 9 years, currently a network engineer. I started learning python a little over a year ago, and I’m wanting to move to a job that’s solely development.

[past grove]

.

[meager basin]

Coding bootcamps yay or nay?

[near ocean]

Nay imho time is better spent working on a project

[gritty rivet]

Don't know anyone who's made this transition but I do know some network engineers on the path. Are you already applying Python to networking? If not, I would try and do as much of that as you can to help build your portfolio

[gritty rivet]

Be careful and do your research, but if you find you need a bit of structure and support to help you move forward, I think it can be worth it. Right now I'm in the middle of the new Nucamp one for backend with Python/SQL and I love it, am very happy although I can't say yet if it will be enough to make me really job ready or not. If you're interested DM me and I can share a referral code.

[smoky quest]

If it's between bootcamp and nothing, then yeah. If it's between college and bootcamp, then definitely college

[wanton belfry]

Yes I have automated a few things in my current job and those automations are in production. I’ve also been adding personal projects to my GitHub and answering questions on StackOverflow.

[meager basin]

Can bootcamp land me a job that will help pay for college?

[smoky quest]

it could.

But most pure sw jobs are full time, not part time

[meager basin]

Perhaps I should freelance to pay for college then?

[smoky quest]

make a list of options and pros/cons

[gritty rivet]

That's good... If you feel like your portfolio is enough to show the skills that match job openings you are interested in, I would start applying like crazy. If you don't get any interviews after a few weeks, reassess your resume and portfolio and just keep iterating that until something pans out. Things like haackathons and freelance projects can also help. (Keep in mind this advice is all from someone who doesn't really have much of a portfolio yet and is still mid-bootcamp!)

[wanton belfry]

A lot of colleges offer tuition discounts for employees, you can try to get an entry level job or another job in IT to help pay for college. Some offer half paid, some offer a set dollar amount.

[meager basin]

So you mean student employment?

[wanton belfry]

That’s good advice, thanks!

[wanton belfry]

No, like a part or full time job. I worked in the Helpdesk at a college and then as a network analyst and I got a pretty good discount. And I took night and online classes. I don’t think there are usually discounts for student workers.

[meager basin]

Ill look into stuff like that, thank you

[wanton belfry]

Whether or not they offer discounts may be on their career page or you might just have to ask. And getting basics done at a community college should save you some money as well.

[noble oriole]

Hey guys, quick question. I've been teaching myself programming for a few weeks now, but I feel like I need to be inside software engineering already. I'm not saying that I deserve the position yet but anything just to get a feel of the industry would be nice.

Are there any jobs that don’t require advanced programming skills in software development?

Jobs like writing software documentation

[smoky quest]

there are jobs like that. QA, technical writer, solution architect (ie. help customers setup and use the software), helpdesk, IT...
You may want to go to different companies websites and look for their jobs pages

[vapid jay]

Even if you have a basic frontend experience, some companies can hire you

[fathom shore]

does anyone have any advice to someone that want to do data analysis with python as a career or a way to successfully learn it?

[buoyant seal]

path_name = "data scientists"
roadmap_url = "https://towardsdatascience.com/data-science-learning-roadmap-for-2021-84f2ba09a44f"
template.render(
    path_name=path_name,
    roadmap_url=roadmap_url
    )

* googlling {{path_name}} roadmaps and learning from zero to hero, for example: {{roadmap_url}}
* searching job vacancies for {{path_name}} and comparing skills in them with the roadmap to formulate learning path better
* joining Discord and other socieities with {{path_name}} to get into the flow of information, getting advices, learning useful bits while speaking with others
* anything that you learn, to apply immediately in your pet projects or job
* anything that you practice to compliment with theory materials (books?). I try to keep it at 50%(practice)/50%(theory) for learning. Job makes it shifted to 10-20% theory and 80-90% practice.

Same as in any programming path

[celest abyss]

HI everyone

is there anyone who can advice for a career in python and machine learning

Is there any path to learn these things in a best way

@somber wolf

[smoky quest]

someone just asked the same question right before you. So scroll up a bit?

data science is pretty close to machine learning

[celest abyss]

nice one

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[cobalt lark]

@astral garden we indeed don't allow paid work here. Please have a look at the pins for alternatives.

[cedar ferry]

hey guys can U pls guide me how to do freelancing in python
actually I passed out my school and appearing to college
I planned to learn python, java(for web design [I already know HTML and CSS]) and want to become pro at 2nd year

[trim willow]

are you new to python ?

if you want i can help you out

[astral garden]

got it

[gritty rivet]

Check sites like UpWork, Fiverr and gun.io to see what's in demand

[vapid jay]

!ban 761685470148296725 NSFW Content

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @glossy bear permanently.

[trim willow]

why did you ban him ?

nvm dont need to tell

[vapid jay]

whats the point of docker desktop

??

[coral sundial]

#help-cheese

[inner wren]

@vestal ivy Per Rule 6, your invite link has been removed. If you believe this was a mistake, please let staff know!

Our server rules can be found here: https://pythondiscord.com/pages/rules

[gritty rivet]

You can have multiple portable Linux environments configured identically across multiple workstations, etc. Just makes development way easier

This is not really the place though, try #tools-and-devops

[frail vortex]

Hey guys, any advice for deciding between engineering or computer science for degree

[near ocean]

Depends on what kind of job/career you would like straight out of uni

[last bluff]

3rd year computer science here

If I ever want to learn something, I learn it by myself - not much is being taught in class. University doesn't teach you, they teach you how to study.

[lilac remnant]

That is far from universally true

[fleet holly]

can anyone help me?

[vapid jay]

Hello everyone, i'm studying in University, i would like to ask a question: that is: "is it hard to learn Python by myself ?" tks everyone

[near ocean]

its harder to learn anything by yourself, compared to having a structured syllabus, schedule, tutoring, lecturing, progress reviewing
it's not impossible however, python is relatively easy to learn and theres a ton of great resources out there and also in here

[stone harbor]

can anyone guide me for competitive programming

[main cloak]

Anyone here who got accepted in GSOC?

[woven tide]

Python

Is a career for me

[hearty island]

uh

[ivory sluice]

what is GSOC?

[smoky quest]

google summer of code

[cedar ferry]

ok got it thanks

[sudden quartz]

Lectures are for making concepts easier to understand and learn.
Never known a class I wouldve failed without attending lectures.
Lectures are not for everyone

[smoky quest]

lectures are for everyone though. That's kind of the whole point.
The rule of thumb is that you can do 80% of the learning by just attending lectures. While attending lectures is not necessarily a guarantee of passing, there is a strong correlation between students who fail and the ones who do not attend lectures

[sudden quartz]

Theyre for people that dont understand the content. Correlation =/= causation. Students who attend lectures are simply more serious and have the time to be a student among other factors. Its easily observed.

[summer roost]

Don't encourage people to not attend lectures here. That's clearly not good career advice.

[smoky quest]

No. They are there to go over the content. The fact you choose to skip it and study on your own is a completely different thing and the exception, not the norm or expected behavior. It's also very risky

There are also some content they would go over during the lecture that you may not get anywhere else. And that's not even mentioning the ability to ask question or interact with the lecturer

[vapid jay]

Hey everyone !!!

I'm in high school now , and I wanna have a career in the coding field

[smoky quest]

I have seen too many stupid kids thinking they were smarter than everyone else and skipping lectures to just fall flat

[vapid jay]

What are the career options I can have

[smoky quest]

It's pretty open ended. Anything involving computers

[vapid jay]

yeh

Like yk theres a lot of varieties even in the comp field

Like being a data scientist, analyst or something like that

[smoky quest]

exactly

[vapid jay]

Besides being a data scientist , what else can I try for

[smoky quest]

Google has great lists about that!

[vapid jay]

thank u !! But can u help me out like what to search to get the answer to my question

[smoky quest]

something as simple as what type of software jobs should yield a bunch of results

[vapid jay]

Thank u sm !!!

[smoky quest]

np

[summer roost]

maybe it would be useful to talk about majors. There's a lot of majors that are related to computers - Computer Science, Software Engineering, Information Systems, Computer Engineering, Electrical Engineering, off the top of my head... Plus there's computational biology, computational chemistry, theoretical physics, etc.

there's a ton of options.

[vapid jay]

Omgg!!!

Thank u sm I'll definitely research about these topics

[smoky quest]

Related to what @ godlygeek is mentioning, you could also go from the other side: look at the CS department of your target universities for what programs they offers and jobs coming out of it

[vapid jay]

okay !!

[main cloak]

Google Summer of Code

[wraith moat]

Hey guys, I'm wondering if people generally go over security for things you just download off of git

like how sure am I that a piece of tech that demand sudo access isn't making my system vulnerable.

[smoky quest]

wrong channel. You may have better chance in #python-discussion

[wraith moat]

Thanks

[tranquil flame]

not the right channel. #❓｜how-to-get-help

[scenic wind]

oh woops

[hot panther]

they were very receptive and polite, the guy who answered said they worked with SQL and JavaScript in website production and that there were two data analysts and if I wanted I could take my resume for them to see. I forgot the main purpose of this message, but it's not a nightmare

[last bluff]

I attend every lecture, every lab.

My issue is, the majority of the material covered in lectures can be easily self-taught in an even less amount of time. We've had a whole semester of Programming in C# when I studied that by myself in just a week. Yes, majority of concepts in university are eye-opening, I've had a better grasp in understanding algorithms in uni then I have by studying by myself, but majority of the content you're taught is still easily replicable by yourself - and that is an opinion me and a bunch of others stand-by.

Apart from attending uni, you have to develop your skills in your own time.

[gray anvil]

remember that degrees are a signal of competence. you could learn everything at uni on your own, of course you could. but when I'm hiring and both of you say you know the material, but only one of you has the degree...

[vapid jay]

hey all! I am just starting with my college this year and like to get complete guidance on how to get started with coding and how to ace in college. anyone will like to help?😇

[rough ore]

👍

[dapper depot]

!resources
not sure about acing college, but this would be a good place for getting started coding

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/resources

[vapid jay]

Hmm ty!

[ornate schooner]

Hello everybody, I have a few doubts regarding my career with programming as a professional.
I have been coding (writing codes that have a use , howsoever little) since 6 years now, but when I actually think about pursing as a profession, I find myself not having adequate skills(slight possibility that I under value myself).
I want to have some proper direction to be employable as a programmer.

[woven tide]

Can i get a python degree or certificate or something if i learn python?

[buoyant seal]

if you want worthy degrees in a distance way, find some sort of distance university ;b
https://www.openuniversity.edu/

regular certificates mean nothing, unless it is from some ultra cool companies like AWS/Oracle or something like that, but they are all quite over specialized

[woven tide]

So i cant get one online ??

The problem is: i dont want to get my degree from u know local colleges and distance r out of the question

[balmy mural]

Why don't you want to get a degree from a local college?

[uncut sluice]

What about from the university of michigan

a specialization course

[smoky quest]

Find what you are lacking in and work on these things?

[rose basin]

For those who attended some kind of Ivy League Universities, or Universities in general, what are your thoughts on the data that shows Asian students needs to score higher in the SAT/ACT to be on the same applicant playing field when compared to other ethnicities? How true is this, is it any accurate? I understand how data can be easily manipulated to look a certain way, but if it's true how much of an impact is it for the students?

[smoky quest]

I don't believe it. At least not when you go far enough in education.
There are things you know you don't know, but there are also things you don't know you don't know. There are also concepts which are advanced enough that it's helpful to have lectures about to go over them. Knowing what's important, being able to ask questions and making sure you took the appropriate time to study are very important.

But yeah, in a vacuum, anyone can learn anything with the proper materials. But we are entering spherical cows territory

[stone harbor]

please help me guys

can anyone tell me how to start for competitive programing

[near ocean]

I dont think this is appropriate for the channel

[smoky quest]

This channel is about #career-advice . You may have more luck in #python-discussion

[stone harbor]

then just guide me that after finishing python

[rose basin]

Alrighty, is there another channel I can post this in?

[stone harbor]

what to do next

[rose basin]

some kind of higher education channel perhaps?

[near ocean]

Offtopics maybe but still i dont think it'll get any serious discussion

[rose basin]

I thought the same as well. That's why I gave it a shot here 😆

[stone harbor]

well then after python which book should i study

[smoky quest]

Also not sure what you expect as outcome. Sounds like the answer is in your first sentence

[stone harbor]

so that i can improve my programming skill

[smoky quest]

You are in the wrong channel. This channel is about #career-advice . You may have more luck in #python-discussion

[rose basin]

Sure, I have my biases based on what I've read and understood. In terms of expectation on outcome is to get a different viewpoint to perhaps change the way my mind is currently shaped for this idea. Is that reasonable with you? 🙂

[stone harbor]

career will be made after learning then what to do