career-advice

[vapid jay]

I mean, she clearly was, I was able to jump over it during the interview. My concern is if she was purposely trying to find holes in my cv, and if that is normal.

[smoky quest]

Being intentionally aggressive is not acceptable regardless.

[near ocean]

Yes finding holes in a cv is a pretty normal thing to do as a recruiter/hiring manager/interviewer
You'll definitely be asked about them in the future
Its just their way of trying to get a feel for your background, obviously they're not gonna know unless they ask about it

[marsh wind]

Who's she? Receuiter HR or from future team?

[rare wyvern]

Totally normal to look for holes, not normal to be accusatory or aggressive about it. Interviewers should ask open ended questions and show no indications of whether you will get the job during the interview

[vapid jay]

Recruiter, saw her LinkedIn, she doesn't have a formal education in this area, but I could tell that she knew her stuff.

[marsh wind]

There's difference between question your choice and attack them

[rare wyvern]

It's such a silly thing to say anyway. Like "why did you choose to major in cell biology, is it because neuroscience would be too hard?"

[marsh wind]

mhm... Wording really matter though. Implications because I wasn't good enough for theoretical physics. if it really was what she said would be a red flag for me.

[smoky quest]

especially from a recruiter. They are more attuned to these things than engineers

[marsh wind]

I had a guy asking me in interview "Why did you even apply to this position?" but he was
tech team lead wih engineering background

[vapid jay]

"so you majored in physics, minored in mathematics and then ..." The three dots are silence.

[smoky quest]

that's it? How did you infer the rest?

[vapid jay]

From the rest of the conversation. I kinda had to change her views.

[smoky quest]

that's not her job though

something doesn't add up

[vapid jay]

What do you mean?

[smoky quest]

Her job is to take care of the HR stuff (are you allowed to work in this country?), basic motivation and fit (why did you apply with us?) and some coordination (although there are other folks helping there).
Recruiters aren't technical. They won't assess you beyond the very broad strokes (ex: mobile engineer for a mobile position). At worst, they will pass along some quesitons from the manager/lead but they wouldn't even understand the answers

She may poke around your resume, but that wouldn't be deep or anything. Just to see how you fit in the big picture

[vapid jay]

Like I said, she knew her stuff, and the interview was fairly technical.

[smoky quest]

then she was not the recruiter

[vapid jay]

Ok. How do I tell the difference?

[smoky quest]

what's her title on linkedin?

[vapid jay]

Recruiter

[smoky quest]

is she an independent recruiter or working for the company you are applying to?

[vapid jay]

I'm applying for a consulting software company.

I believe she would then put me in another interview with some company that is acquiring their services, at least that's what I understood

[smoky quest]

I see. so she isnt just a recruiter

[near ocean]

If she's working for the company and not an independent recruitment company then she'll probably be a dev too transitioning to recruiting or at least know the industry

[smoky quest]

placing people would require a bit more technical knowledge than the standard recruiter

[vapid jay]

I think that might be the case, she has like a list of projects and chooses the best fit for the candidate (and vice versa)

[smoky quest]

yeah so it might just be her being too judgemental. I wouldn't worry too much about it and move on

[vapid jay]

Alright I will

[rose bobcat]

Hi

[tepid basin]

hey guys, I’m 13 and I want to learn pyhton and also maybe even have a career in coding, where do i start?

[vapid jay]

https://youtu.be/rfscVS0vtbw

[tepid basin]

Thanks

[vapid jay]

I'm hesitating a bit on my answer, because Im likely not the best person to answer you. But I personally think that a good roadmap would be python->cython->c/c++

[tepid basin]

Ok

[sage pumice]

!resources i would not recommend a video like that, they tend to not be very good. pick one from here @tepid basin

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[tepid basin]

Ok

thanks so much for the help

[next crater]

So I recently started python and I'm loving it, my main purpose was to use it in editing softwares like maya, blender etc to help me in vfx and animation when I go to college, so I have a book as a resource and some vids , so I want to ask do I need to learn any other language other than python?And approximately how much time will it take for me to learn python?

[gray anvil]

python is really quite easy to learn, and it's probably the best beginner language

and good luck on your vfx career, have you had any fun with unreal 5 yet?

[next crater]

Oo thx man and by unreal 5 do u mean the game?

[shell lake]

To my knowledge you'll be pretty well covered off with just python.

Maya has its own scripting language (MEL) though it could be worth studying up on that.

[pastel grove]

does anyone wanna join my python dev group?

[pastel grove]

do u wanna join my python dev group?

[shell lake]

What does it focus on?

[pastel grove]

i have two ideas

we might make a game or a music software

[pastel grove]

u there

[shell lake]

Ooh no thank youb

But I'm sure you'll find some smart folk around here happy to join!

[pastel grove]

lol

yea im in a search for devs

[gray anvil]

no unreal engine 5, but my bad I didn't realise it's not publicly available yet

[next crater]

Thx , yeah I heard abt mel but I think maya supports python too but yeah I'll try learning it after I finish python, so btw how much time do u think will it take for me to learn python and become decent in it?

[shell lake]

Pretty open ended question, I've been using it on and off for a few years and learn new stuff every day.
But a friend recently picked it up specifically for Maya and it took him about a month to get up to speed and be beneficial to what he was trying to do

[next crater]

Ohhhhh I see I dint try it yet

[next crater]

Ooo I see , thx man.

[boreal adder]

Do you think about bachelors degree in statistics rather than computer science would be better for landing a data science job?

[rare wyvern]

It's a tough question. Stats programs sometimes cover data science but not always, my stats friends didn't learn any data science and barely learned to code. On the other hand a CSC major will have a lot of courses that are practically useless for data science. There are data science programs out there as well, but if you really want to land a job, keep your grades up and get internships. I studied physics and didn't have a problem getting into the field. Having a history of data science projects on your GitHub doesn't hurt either.

University if a unique time to study something that interests you, so you may want to major in something less directly related. Many jobs ask for "math, programming, or science" field

Sometimes they are a bit dumb and restrict science to physics and chemistry or something and exclude bio (even though many bio majors also learn to code).
But if you are worried about getting a job, you can still pick a major in any of those categories that you think will be the most engaging to you, and get data science internships and demonstrate your abilities.
You can also major in art-history or anything else you find cool and find jobs that don't have idiotic major requirements (I think a job should care about your skills and personality not where you went to school or what you studied)
If all else fails, you can get a masters in data science, and many masters programs are designed to help you find a good job. (Though they can also be a bit of a scam, find a reputable program)

[gray anvil]

as an econs major who studied data science after university I'd say I picked up python and the associated ds libraries like scikit etc a lot easier than the programmers picked up glm, time series etc

I think the programming is a lot more feasible to self teach than a proper academic grounding in say advanced econometrics

[wraith dirge]

hello

[tardy grotto]

Should I learn Django or FastAPI? Are people looking for FastAPI devs these days or should I go safe with django?

Moreover, what are some good places (or specific course recommendations) for learning them? Don't have money for bootcamps but have money to buy udemy courses

[dry sapphire]

I’d say Django is defo more stable

[tardy grotto]

when you say stable, you mean it doesn't crash that often, or a stable career path?

[dry sapphire]

the latter

[tardy grotto]

I see lol

[hearty island]

how much time would you say you get for a coding interview question? like 20-25 minutes?

[brazen ingot]

it depends on the difficulty, some can take 15 minutes, some they'll give you a day or two if it's super complex

[hearty island]

oh ok

i was thinking of just using pomodoro and spending like 25 minutes on a question

[twilit cradle]

@mystic wadi hey lad

brasil porra hahha

[fluid aspen]

Hey, just wanna ask, if u think Python is good language for Real job..? Or what language is good to a job? (Most Money..) in future i want to be a programmer and i want to know what language can give me a lot of Money and what language i can practise

[vapid jay]

我是干电脑程序
我喜欢电脑程序

[sonic mica]

I was looking for good resources to teach myself cs to make myself more competent in networking and full stack engineering, I found 2 roadmaps: https://teachyourselfcs.com/ and https://github.com/ossu/computer-science
I am wondering which roadmap I should follow though, been confused for a while

[tender frost]

!rule 4 Please keep things english in this server

[inner wren]

Rules

4. Use English to the best of your ability. Be polite if someone speaks English imperfectly.

[tender frost]

This isn't a place to try and get product keys @vapid jay

[rare wyvern]

Yes python is used in real jobs, though generally those are jobs that require some other knowledge as well (science, statistics, business, web-dev, etc.) not saying you necessarily need those skills before you start, but it can help. There isn't a language to make the most money (though I'm sure you can find some trends) it's more about getting the right job in the right place. There are definitely jobs that are more work than their pay demands though, game devs are notorious for being overworked and underpaid, meanwhile something like a finance/fintech job, that might use a little coding, can make you a lot of money and it may be a much better work-life-party balance. Look up jobs you might want, find how much they pay, what people say about them on glassdoor, and what skills you need.

[reef sierra]

Python and most programming languages are not very hard to pick up as far as syntax and constructs go, what takes time to develop is your way of thinking. Trying to think like a developer takes time and is something you are going to be constantly learning. The good news is that as you learn, you also make stuff, and have a lot of fun. Enjoy your Journey

[rare wyvern]

Read the channel info "NOT FOR RECRUITMENT"

[rancid barn]

can i get feedback on a resume in this server?

[summer roost]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[summer roost]

We don't allow advertising jobs here, because we have no way of vetting them and don't want to be in a position where we appear to have endorsed a scam or a bad company. And honestly, our community skews very young here - there are much better places to advertise for the mid/senior level.

[grim star]

With boards, reducers, circuits ect... how much of python do you need to know? Does getting to know the tools/hardware, take allot?

[mystic wadi]

Da-lhe Br!!! Kkkk

[woeful arrow]

If I have have 1 work experience and 3 extracurricular experiences, should I combine the two sections into "Experiences" or should I split them up into their own sections on my resume?

[summer roost]

Separate sections.

[woeful arrow]

thanks

[stiff root]

Hey Guys,
I am currently studying in high school and i have done lots of small projects like Pathfinder, Small Games and stuff and i think i have some good command over the language. I am also currently studying DSA and ML. I have learnt everything on my own by building stuff and from kaggle. What should i do next to get a job without a cs degree. I know HTML5 JS and CSS and other frontend technologies too. I dont want a job with a very high pay i just want to work while getting paid.

Tldr : Learned Python by developing stuff and still learning DSA and ML. Looking to get employed fast

[smoky quest]

why not going for a cs degree?

[stiff root]

i will have study tons of maths physics chemistry to get a cs degree @smoky quest

[smoky quest]

CS degrees don't have any class in physics or chemistry, unless the specialization calls for it

[stiff root]

it is like that in my country @smoky quest

[smoky quest]

which one?

[stiff root]

India

[smoky quest]

Just so you know, without a degree, I would pay you half as much as I would otherwise

You will also be in competitions with hundreds of other applicants who do have degrees

[stiff root]

if u want good college then you have to study ass off for two years in high school then two years in collage only physics chemistry maths)to finally study Only cs in last to years to get a cs degree

[smoky quest]

so you are saying you don't want a degree because it's too much work?

[stiff root]

what you said is true tho but u see its very hard and i am working for it.

[smoky quest]

It may sound lazy though

[stiff root]

i am working but i think i wont need chemistry in ML program xD

[smoky quest]

I can't speak for india but in europe and USA, you don't have chemistry classes in CS

if India does require it, then just power through it 🙂

[stiff root]

i study 8 hours a day(PCM) to finally study 1 hour of DSA and ML

[smoky quest]

there is a lot more to CS than DSA and ML

[stiff root]

but i need DSA to be good

and if i study CS now i wont be able to understand it

[smoky quest]

the corollary of being more than DSA and ML is that you need more than DSA to be good 🙂

people will also ask you: if you are that good, why weren't you able to get a degree?

[stiff root]

the main thing is collage's entrance exam. Cuz good employers only from top collage's and the competition is 23lakh ppl vs 10000 seats

but i am trying hard for it

[smoky quest]

as an employer, it's not really my problem. I get dozens of applicants every day with degrees. So if you don't have one, you need something to stand out

[stiff root]

what can make me stand out?

[smoky quest]

that's the millions dollars question

It's really tough. Everyone has great projects and internships

[stiff root]

can u answer if for free to me

[smoky quest]

it's not me asking you to pay one million. That's an expression saying it's a tough question

[stiff root]

i know lol

after completing DSA and ML i will build projects and i think that is the best way to stand out ig

[smoky quest]

yeah projects help. But still try to get in some degree

that will open up a lot more doors for your future

[stiff root]

yes thanks for advice

[rancid heath]

Heyy

I am a computer science student who is about to graduate

Can I learn python and how it will help my carrier

[rare wyvern]

What kind of careers are you interested in?

[rancid heath]

Cybersecurity and information security analyst

It related jobs too !

[rare wyvern]

If you do network security, Python is useful for things like analyzing packet data, from a data science/data viz standpoint. That said, there are a ton of proprietary tools for that as well, so it depends on the company. Look at the job postings that interest you and see what the "need to have" and "nice to have" points are. Some companies want certs, others want you to have done projects or internships, others want python, others just want someone with the right soft skills

[vapid jay]

So what kind of community is this ... If we can't even help related to DS material ..

[buoyant seal]

Students tricks allow to pass exams without remembering anything afterwards ;) just learning enough to pass and nothing else for the chemistry could be enough.

[stiff root]

the thing is, even if i remember everything i will have to remember chemistry of years straight

[wide sun]

i can speak for india in that its very hard to get a job without a degree

[marsh spear]

@wide sun yeah, it's hard

[dapper crow]

from my experience a degree is just a social norm now, and i can say that the people i worked with who have a degree arent open minded and can think of solutions, as when u study u dont learn how to study you learn how to pass exams and its not that applicable in the real world, and most of the degree knowledge is useless anyway in the field

[gray anvil]

what a load of rubbish

[buoyant seal]

I would say that first three years of my BS were definitely useful. A lot of programming basics, and a lot of basic high math.

[elfin breach]

Hello pythonists

I have a question you all. I have ecommerce project I need to deploy on site. How can I deploy it on site? Any advice?

Ive heard about reg.ru only. Are there any companies that works as reg.ru?

[dapper crow]

based on facts, as i said from my workplace and other workplaces, if you discard it then either you invalidate facts and that is dumb, or you are hurt cause you are one of those engineers with degree that just wanna do 9-5 and not be noticed 🙂 have a nice day.

[wide sun]

they're not facts, they're anecdotes

anecdotes based on people around you that do not reflect everyone

[rancid heath]

How

[dry sapphire]

if you disagree, please explain why

[dry sapphire]

YMMV depending on where you are. that might be true for you, but it's not necessarily true in general. and I would say that if you study just for the certification, then that's a failure of the educational institution, not of higher education as a whole.

[wide sun]

using anecdotes as facts is a bad idea

[ionic thunder]

I am applying to uni in a few months

And I am thinking about software engineering

Do you guys think I should start learning the basics of coding ?

And when I say coding I mean learning the basics of python

[lean moth]

@ionic thunder I'd at least look at some videos about starting with coding and maybe write some simple programs to see if you are interested in coding at all

[sonic mica]

I've decided to study CS (since I am a self-taught programmer) to become a better full stack dev, I found 2 roadmaps though, I wonder which one is better: https://teachyourselfcs.com/ and https://github.com/ossu/computer-science

[gentle crater]

please help me

i need someone to guide

[gilded heath]

Does anyone have any examples of a good project to put on your portfolio. (Anything related to python is fine.)

[candid flume]

Hi guys, what do you think about data science for full remote work? Is it doable? I am from Argentina. Is there demand for relatively cheap junior data scientists from third world countries?

[buoyant seal]

plenty. are you russing speaking? (since you know only reg.ru)

anyway... I use german vps provider https://hetzner.cloud/, so far I like it

it has no domain buying like reg.ru though

https://www.namecheap.com/ is cool for that, and I like https://www.fastcomet.com/ too so far, fastcomet has a great tech support which is nearly instantaneous.

[trail mantle]

hi.. i dont know much abiut jobs.. but j really wanna do a job which has like networking stuff in it.. and what do i have to do if i want tk study tht in usa if i live in india

[gray anvil]

the root of your argument is that your Co workers with degrees are working the same dead end jobs you are, therefore all degrees are worthless. I don't even know where to start with that.

[vapid jay]

anyone help me :/

[lime stag]

do certificates do anything?

[smoky quest]

That's not what students do at schools though. Constructing schools as a social norm is missing on a lot of things it brings in terms of education, depth, professional network, abstract reasoning, tools to continue learning

[lime stag]

a degree is just a fancy iq test and ability to follow instructions test

[smoky quest]

lol no

[lime stag]

what can you learn in a uni that you can't online?

[smoky quest]

Schools do rely on a lot of online resources. The problem is not about the existence of online resources, but actually knowing what to go through and doing it.

There are also a lot of adjacent areas people forget:

• You are there to learn. There is no expectation of selling something, no pressure from a manager other than keeping the pace in learning. There are knowledgeable staff paid to teach you and the time is dedicated to learn and nothing else
• You learn topics you wouldn't learn on your own or wouldn't even know they exist.
• That creates your first professional network. It won't matter in the next 2-3 years post-graduation. But after 5-10years, having a network of people you know and can call can grease some wheels or create some opportunities
• If you put some efforts, teachers have a lot more to teach. Some of my teachers were some of the inventors of prolog or were part of the particle accelerator at cern. They have a lot of wisdom to share if the students are interested

[lime stag]

a few points on that

• you can learn wherever you want, if you have the money to go to uni, you probably also have the money to stay home and learn the exact same thing, people don't do this b/c they want a degree that proves they did in fact learn,
  *course lists are widely available online and so are syllabuses, google and internet documentation sites + blogs have far more information that is accurate than any university could possibly have, also universities expect self study most of the time anyways.
  *this is true, you go to uni to network and get a piece of paper
  *basically "networking with smart people"

if we cut the pretense that uni is there for people to learn it would be much more cheaper and effective for software devs no? since you'd just be paying to network with teachers and fellow students

[smoky quest]

Let's not confuse a 3rd world country like the USA with the rest of the world. Education is mostly free everywhere else.

In the abstract, anything is possible. But that would not really be useful for this discussion.
You make it sound like you just have to show up and wait it out for the degree at the end but that's not the case. Have you been to college?

[lime stag]

well, assuming US university rates (daylight robbery btw)

[digital fjord]

Uni generally costs 3 years of salary

[lime stag]

you can get the same education if you really put in the effort at home for a lot less money, but you won't get a degree

[digital fjord]

it's a question whether those 3 years are worth the extra qualifications

[smoky quest]

I have yet to see that from candidates

[lime stag]

its a bit of a chicken and egg issue, most smart people go to uni b/c it helps with your job opportunities and they can pass their classes and network. Especially in countries where uni is free or low cost, its obvious to anyone that they should go to uni, but the calculus here in the great US of A is quite different because of the actual cost of uni

[smoky quest]

that's not what I observe.
What I see is they focused too much on getting a job and thus focus on very practical skills like writing python/java and html/javascript. But they lack in everything else.

[lime stag]

what do you mean? people who go to uni are very focused on practical skills? Of course they are, practical by definitions means something you can put into practice, what use is computer science if its not implemented and stays in your head all day? Also they probably would very much disagree with the notation of being jobless or starving

[digital fjord]

yeah, in the US if all you want is to know enough to be a reasonably proficient programmer, Uni is a waste of 3 years of US programmer salary + tuition
Yet, there is a very important difference between a place of learning and your home in terms of how easily you retain information, be it better or worse. Also, there is a lot more reason to not give up when going to uni, whereas it is easy to just skip excessively complex topics, since you have no real grasp of how important they are. Having peers is also invaluable, and while communities like this help, it's not quite the same.
Also yeah, there are some more fringe topics you can't really learn outside of obscure uni classes, even if only because the only public information are papers

[smoky quest]

At uni, you are taught math and the tools to learn new things. You also have classes about communication, marketing and sales sometimes.
This means engineers are there to solve problem and provide solution, not just piss code

[lime stag]

papers aren't that dense, it just takes a couple of days / weeks to go through

[sage pumice]

i think that counts as dense

[digital fjord]

papers about a field of math you never heard about tend to not be a great source of learning

definitely worse than a Q&A session with the person who wrote the paper

[lime stag]

you can learn math at home, there are many good textbooks for learning math etc, as for communication marketing and sales, you'd probably get better experience doing and just interacting with others in the real world, also in a lot of jobs "pissing code out that your boss told you to make" is kinda the MO

[lime stag]

most lower level math fields have pretty good textbooks, higher level stuff is hardely used (and no one understands it anyways)

how many people who go to uni actually take and understand something like abstract algebra?

[digital fjord]

Some want to know the higher level stuff, not everything is about getting a job, computer science is a fascinating topic.

[smoky quest]

So why learning on your own at home and getting stuck when you could learn in class and having class mates and teachers to interact with and learn from?

Fortunately, a lot of jobs are about more than pissing code 🙂

[lime stag]

great! then university might be useful for the around .1% of the population who wants this, but we're talking about the utility of a university education purely for SWE work

[smoky quest]

That's their problem though.
You can go through the motion and get the bare minimum out of it, or you can go deep and learn a lot more

[lime stag]

in the US? cost and having a piece of paper to prove that you actually did learn what you claimed to learn

[digital fjord]

yeah, you can be a code monkey that allocates a 10k long array to compute the ticks of a graph, and it is a useful place to fill in any company. Or you can be better. Sometimes, from a purely job standpoint, being a code monkey is just better, especially when formal education is as expensive as it is.

[smoky quest]

University ensure a minimum bar for the topics covered, not about ensuring the best quality

[smoky quest]

With the salary you would make, university is definitely worth it

[lime stag]

it'd be great to "understand everything" but some fields are just absolutely not relevant for CS work and are very much not necessary at all, when are you ever going to use anything from abstract algebra or the study of holes?

[smoky quest]

I do sometimes 🙂

[lime stag]

the skills to be "better" aren't exclusive to universities, the degree is

[lime stag]

please show me a practical example from your job where you utilized abstract algebra

[smoky quest]

error code correction and encryption

[lime stag]

and there is no library to do this for you?

[smoky quest]

there are some, but knowledge of how they work is still required

[digital fjord]

3 years of salary is a lot of money, and if you all you will be doing is simple CRUD app patching, there is no real reason to know sequent calculus. But software engineering is a pretty vast field, and while there is a lot you can only learn with practice, there is also a lot you can learn quite well at university.
Make no mistake, university will not teach you much of anything applicable at a job site, but foundations are valuable for the same reason high school math is quite useful in programming. But yeah, it all depends on to what extent you want to optimise.
(another somewhat valuable thing can be access to tools with no personal licenses often used in your field of choice)

[lime stag]

I'm like 99% sure that for those two tiny fields, you just black box algorithms most of the time and also most of their algorithms are more rooted in number theory than abstract algebra

[smoky quest]

roughly, here is what I expect from candidates:

• No degree - can use the library from tutorials
• BS - can use the library and has a rough idea of how it fits together
• MS - can take a paper and contribute some new algorithms to the library

[smoky quest]

You never had to debug a library or improve it?

[lime stag]

in general, this is true, only because smart people want degrees to have a piece of paper to prove they've learned it

[lime stag]

ofc I have, but I've never had to go learn abstract algebra, or anything after linear algebra and number theory

[smoky quest]

The context of the discussion was about a library using linear algebra and number theory

[lime stag]

you can 100% learn linear algebra and number theory well online

[digital fjord]

you will eventually walk of the beaten path and have to do things in some way other than what existing developers put into open source, and well, at that point, those theory of computation classes will come in handy

[smoky quest]

You wouldn't because you would also be missing a lot of prerequisites

[lime stag]

usually this means "build off of what others have done" and not "make everything new by yourself"

[lime stag]

you learn prerequisites to this in high school, do you not have calculus and DE classes in HS?

[sage pumice]

in the US, pre-calc is commonly taught in 12th grade

[digital fjord]

still need to understand what you are using, no amount of code reuse will let you take effective use of a library whose only documentation is a messy example project and a talk at some conference

[lime stag]

sure, so you need linear alg and number theory

and also the prerequisite math courses (all of which are online)

[digital fjord]

sure, you can probably learn a specific thing at home, but there is value in just knowing most of it already.

[smoky quest]

There are a lot of topics you do cover post-HS 🙂

[smoky quest]

so if you have to fix a bug or contribute a new feature, you want me to wait 6 months for you to learn?

[lime stag]

and most of those (like everything after abstract algebra) you will never ever ever use

[lime stag]

well, you should have learned most if not all of the prerequisite math courses in HS, and if you don't go to uni, you should also probably study linear alg and number theory

[smoky quest]

Depends on your degree. As an engineer, I am more than happy to have learnt a broad range of topics, even if I may not use it. This still makes me able to handle a lot of different situation and help generalize concepts

[smoky quest]

I don't think you learn abstract algebra at high school

[lime stag]

so how has your experience in abstract algebra and measure theory contributed concretely to any project you've done?

[smoky quest]

what's your degree?

[lime stag]

I mean ofc not, you really don't need to understand abstract algebra (I've literally never seen anyone use it), if you have a solid grasp of linear algebra and number theory and their prequisites its enough

[digital fjord]

would you rather hire someone who, when posed with writing a parser for some weird binary format, will spend 3 months learning parsing theory and finite automata, or someone who looks at their notes from uni and gets it done in a week.

[smoky quest]

anomaly detection and cryptography

[lime stag]

those are really niche fields, and only part of those fields even require those, have you ever coded anything that actually uses abstract algebra?

[smoky quest]

I did, but I won't go in details because of Internet

They also aren't niche fields. You use them every day in your devices

[lime stag]

ok, I agree, in these two specific niche fields, if you are working intimately to write libraries, you need abstract algebra

[lime stag]

niche != uncommonly used, I mean niche as in hires a lot of people, most companies and people are content with just using libraries written by other people

[smoky quest]

they still need to understand how they work and their limits

[lime stag]

not really? I bet 90% of the people who code up new cryptocurrencies have no god damn clue how elliptic curve cryptography works

[smoky quest]

That's not really related. I could say the same about farmers

[lime stag]

so most people who use the cryptography that requires abstract algebra, don't actually need to understand it, just like how it doesn't require an intimate understanding of signal processing and fourier transforms to become a web dev

for most jobs, you really don't got to reinvent the wheel, just know how it's used no? at the end of the day, your boss wants something functional that won't break, not something that they can say they 100% understand, if not, ML literally would not be a field

[smoky quest]

Even if not being useful to most engineers, that's still a good fundamental to have. That's something not unlikely to encounter during the career and thus can be useful

Cryptography is a corner stone of the Internet and worth learning about

[lime stag]

I'd gander that most if not 90% of all software devs never ever ever have to deal with implementing crytography by themselves, and if they do, it's going to be something that's easy and requires less math than abstract algebra

[lime stag]

fun to learn about != practically useful though

you don't really need or want most of your society having high specialization in upper level math, it's a waste of their time to learn something they will never personally use for their jobs, even if most of the world operates based on higher level math concepts, its always black boxed away so you don't have to worry about it

[digital fjord]

please never deploy handwritten cryptography. Unless you had it checked by multiple programmers, and even then be very careful

[smoky quest]

Think about SSL, the difference between asymmetric and symmetric encryption and when to use them best

[lime stag]

isn't this also an issue, if you write your own cryptographic library odds are high that you have a bug somewhere and it's not actually secure

[lime stag]

and this requires abstract algebra to figure out?

[ashen elk]

if not, ML literally would not be a field
true, very few ML engineers even know their algos at a basic level. They just leverage libs to do their job

[smoky quest]

It's a complicated endeavor

[digital fjord]

yeah, you can't write your own useful crypto library.

[lime stag]

agreed, so except for an extremely small minority of people (much more than uni has nowaday) the education you can get at a uni can be obtained for free online or in a textbook

[smoky quest]

you can for fun and learning, but don't do it in prod

[ashen elk]

I dunno - if you like crypto, then go into crypto. Making your own crypto lib for your product doesn't sound productive

[smoky quest]

In the abstract, yes. But in practice, they don't get the same education and the same quality of information

[lime stag]

Im gonna be straight with ya, I have no god damn clue how SSL works and have never met anyone that does

I'm sorry, I don't work in cryptography, except for personal studying, I've never ever had to care about the details about how this stuff actually works

[smoky quest]

You would if you have exposed resources to the Internet

Regardless of our discussion here, I highly recommend you to look into ssl and how it works.

[lime stag]

aren't there libraries and smarter people than me who have figured this all out?

[smoky quest]

forget about the library, the principles at least

[lime stag]

why should I learn how to reinvent the wheel though?

[smoky quest]

Because it's a fundamentals for engineers to know about

[lime stag]

I know generally how a BBST works but I have negative clue the specific balancings used for a red black tree and have never had to care

isn't this high level conceptual understanding more than enough?

[icy narwhal]

ختک-حگج-ثفلافغ

[smoky quest]

and you are demonstrating by the example of why school degrees are important 🙂

It's not about reinventing the wheel. It's about understanding how the Internet and computer work

[lime stag]

I think the difference is that some people (like me) are very content with not knowing, and as long as everything trucks along and works, and I can pass interviews, I don't really care or want to care about how any of the backend stuff actually works

[lime stag]

do you know transistor design and the physics behind mosfets or circuit designs of ALUs?

[smoky quest]

yes. Built some in some classes and observed the ALU and instruction fetching with an oscilloscope

[lime stag]

you built a mosfet?

[smoky quest]

not the mosfet. We built the cpu

But yeah, did review the different transistors design

[lime stag]

yeah I thought so, IIRC mosfets are extremely expensive to build if not for economies of scale

[lime stag]

but you can see how most people don't really give a hoot about how intel's CPU structure works even if it directly impacts the performance of their software no?

[smoky quest]

In the frontend, no.
In backend services at scale, a lot of people do

It's also good to know the basics so you can understand what spectre is and how it impacts you

[lime stag]

and this is what I mean, you have to know generally how something works at around 1 level deeper of abstraction than you actually work with

[radiant moon]

at my last job, the impact was "The entire company has to stop what it's doing and chase down every single python app we built and upgrade them"
took a loooonnnngggg time

[lime stag]

at a certain point you gotta stop and say, I don't care

or else you gonna be stuck in academia learning about quantum physics to try to code a python app

[smoky quest]

That's what a lot of people ponder and think about when they design the curriculum

It didn't happen on its own

[lime stag]

and to make sure they can charge more money / pretend they're useful, they put in WAYYYYYY too much

[smoky quest]

that's not their incentive

its still the same number of hours and their incentive is to have a high hiring rate of alumni so they have more students coming in

It's also often done in partnership between government, academia and the industry

[lime stag]

and many universities are cutting the bullcrap and having less class time, more self study, more opportunities to intern, more networking opportunities and more tests

the entire purpose of unis nowaday is just for networking and as an iq test to rank it's students

[smoky quest]

That's not how it works. They need to match the program to be certified

You have a lot of wrong preconceived information about university

[lime stag]

I'm not saying they don't teach you stuff

I'm saying you can learn the same stuff by yourself, a lot of software devs are self taught

[radiant moon]

You might get a chuckle out of https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BH3S9DQ

[smoky quest]

In the abstract, I agree with you, except that university can be a better environment. but in practice, most kids coming here are just trying to find an easy way out and hope to get a high paying job without studying. To that end, recommending them to not go to school would set them up for failure

[lime stag]

I read that a couple of years ago lmao, as a matter of fact that book really changed my mind and formed a lot of my opinions

[radiant moon]

drat 🙂

[radiant moon]

It didn't change my mind at all; rather, it confirmed some of my prejudices

[lime stag]

so basically, weak willed people are too lazy to put their heads into a book and read for a couple of hours a day

[lime stag]

I was initially like this guy and thought uni was actually useful asf for learning, then I turned on my computer and googled the class topics

[smoky quest]

They don't have the same expectation of spending as much time learning

[radiant moon]

I'll grant there are indeed things you can learn at uni -- there's nothing like a really good teacher. But those teachers are pretty rare, and could you have learned more useful stuff on your own (and saved money and time)? Perhaps.

[lime stag]

I agree most of the time, but also in many cases, you can supplant a good teacher with just effort and more time

[smoky quest]

I don't disagree about being able to learn on your own. I am continuing my education to stay relevant. So yeah, I don't doubt you can learn that way.

But I also have more fundamentals and experience than someone who just left HS

[lime stag]

in a vacuum, the person who just left HS and is as smart as you would probably be able to get the same fundamentals and experience self-studying

[radiant moon]

or, better, yet, getting an entry-level job
if such things existed, which they mostly don't in the US.
I hear there are apprenticeships in Germany

[lime stag]

the only reason this isn't the case is bc when hiring people prefer those who have a god damn piece of paper,

[smoky quest]

Exactly. They could spend the time learning at home alone and random forums, or they could learn at school with a schedule, curriculum worked out and people to learn with

[smoky quest]

They don't study as much. They just learn basic programming and hope for a job

[lime stag]

some people fair better with unstructured learning, I certainly prefer periods of burning out and periods of pulling all nighters to finish a textbook or code

[smoky quest]

so they fail

[lime stag]

no, you take a break / focus on something different and then you go back to grinding out code / pages

[smoky quest]

Sounds like we are mostly comparing self learning in the abstract

[lime stag]

I mean, there are programming bootcamps and online courses if you really care that much, those seem to be at least moderately succesful

[smoky quest]

you can't compare 2-3 months of bootcamp with 3-5 years of education

[lime stag]

you can compare 3-5 years of self study with 3-5 years of education though

if those 3-5 years of self study you are sufficiently motivated

[smoky quest]

You could. And then I would still wonder why doing it alone without resources when I could do it in an environment dedicated to learning like school

[lime stag]

money, tuition is freaking 100k a year

[smoky quest]

not really

[lime stag]

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/11/some-colleges-could-soon-cost-100000-year/601648/

[smoky quest]

In the USA, it's lhttps://www.topuniversities.com/student-info/student-finance/how-much-does-it-cost-study-us

[lime stag]

At the very top-tier US universities (the majority of which are private non-profits), fees and living costs are likely to add up to around US$60,000 per year, but it’s also possible to study in the US at a much lower outlay.

[smoky quest]

alright

[lime stag]

you're not gonna buy dining passes or housing? you don't need amenities?

[smoky quest]

so let say 60k$/year. We hire new grads at 100k$/year with a BS, minimum across all location. We pay more if you have a ms or phd

[lime stag]

aight so in those 4 years thats 240k, a quarter of a million dollars

[smoky quest]

you can live comfortably with that salary and repay the cost

[lime stag]

what kinda job pays 100k a year with a BS right out of uni?

[smoky quest]

normal software engineering

[lime stag]

an entry level job is gonna run you 80k around here no? your company is an outlier

[sage pumice]

not everyone goes to a top-tier university though. you'll likely get the same education going to a state school, where the costs are much lower

[smoky quest]

We are following standard pay

so some companies may pay higher, some lower, we are in the middle of the pack

[lime stag]

sure, now you have tax and you pay off a year of tuition, congratulations, you have less than 40k to live for a year, also known as poverty

[sage pumice]

uh, 40k is not poverty

[lime stag]

minimum wage runs you 30k in california

[smoky quest]

You also wouldn't repay your loan at the same rate

And on top of the cash, you also have equity and stuff

[lime stag]

but you also have taxes

[smoky quest]

but even so, after you repay it, that's completely yours, and by then your income is larger too

[lime stag]

how much taxes is on 100k btw? do you know

I'd gander about 30k is lost to uncle sam in california

[smoky quest]

depends where you live. Some states have no income tax

[lime stag]

well, if you want a good job, you go to some high tier city no?

[smoky quest]

not anymore, tons of remote jobs nowadays

[lime stag]

alright, point is, uncle sam takes 20% federally, and you have interest on a student loan to afford 240k of tuition

so good freaking luck paying that back in a reasonable amount of time

[smoky quest]

It won't matter if you make 100k+

[sage pumice]

that 240k number is grossly overestimated. there's financial aid, and if you don't get any chances are you're already quite wealthy

[smoky quest]

Yeah, that's the worst case, without grants, most expensive school, etc.

[lime stag]

even if you make 100k a year, if you want to live a decent life (like a 50k life) you have 30k a year for loans which is about 10-15 year repayment time

[smoky quest]

https://www.topuniversities.com/student-info/student-finance/how-much-does-it-cost-study-us

20k$/year for in state for 4 years

[lime stag]

more managable sure, but still a hell of a lot of money

[smoky quest]

the 240k are over what, 30 years?
So you can get the range of income between repaying between 3 years and 30 years

[sage pumice]

it's literally a third of what you described. it's much much more manageable

[lime stag]

also tbf if you go to a more expensive university, most of the time you can get a better job

[smoky quest]

Also look at it over 20 years. repaying 240k but making 2x more over 20 years is a lot more than the alternative

[sage pumice]

that's just not true. what credentials do you have to be making these claims? @lime stag

[lime stag]

so basically, having a piece of paper is important, I agree

[smoky quest]

No one really care about the school you went at. They mostly care about the degree

[lime stag]

for your first job?

[smoky quest]

That's making everything that lead to it trivial.
People are paying more because of what it took to get it and what it means

[smoky quest]

yeah

[sage pumice]

the internships and co-ops you did at school are worth way more than what school you went to

[lime stag]

🤢 Its pretty undeniable in the current system that university is by and large worth it for a cs degree, but its still a 20k syphon on the economy

[smoky quest]

Again, let's not confuse a 3rd world country with the rest of the world

I paid a few hundred euros for my entire education. The government was even subsiding my studies

it's pretty much the same for most people outside of the US

[cunning plume]

I work at McDonald's.
No but fr I'm in university and wanna become a software engineer, any advice?

[lyric walrus]

Do you guys think my resume is good enough to land a software eng internship in summer 2022? I’ve been grinding on projects all summer

[radiant moon]

maybe. If I were you I'd put the source for all of them on github, and include links

[sage pumice]

links can sometimes trip security filters, which would get your resume tossed

[radiant moon]

😐

[lyric walrus]

Aah ok got it thanks

I have my GitHub on it but I just covered it bc it has my full name and email on the top of resume

[coarse dust]

hello guys

I am new to

[stuck marten]

How can i start working with Python? I started learning about 6 months ago and i think i have a good level to start working, but i don't know how can i get a job

[coarse dust]

what are you specializing on?

[radiant moon]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[stuck marten]

at this moment im doing a course for mobile apps development

[coarse dust]

I am a python newbie, though I have gone through the basics of python, I am currently learning gui but I am more much more interested in machine learning, data analysis. To be honest, I've been on this off and on ( I am an electrical engineering student). I wish to ask if it will be wise for me to continue with Gui, or should I jump straight into my areas of interest, if so, what roadmap would you recommend for me🙏

[stuck marten]

i'm kinda new too, but i think the best thing is to follow what u are more into

[radiant moon]

doesn't hurt that there are more jobs for ML than GUI 🙂

[fleet flame]

I think so, I would think that is pretty strong for a rising junior

[dry sapphire]

GUI ML with blockchain 🤔

[radiant moon]

GUI ML with blockchain, cowbell, Spam, sausage, and Spam, and more cowbell

[buoyant seal]

I live in 3d world country... and we have higher education for free. (As long as you achieve necessary grades in your school final country wide exams, or get necessary grades equivalent in university local exams) (different amount of grades is needed for different university and for different profession)

As far as I heard 1d world countries have it differently too. Some pay, some dont.

So, it is not depending on type of country, more like just on country.

[delicate cave]

What part of python do I have to learn to become a data scientist?

[wanton adder]

There's not a universally acceptable python curriculum that you need to go through in order to become a data scientist although most data scientists use statistical and visualization python libraries on a day to day basis. Example includes numpy, pandas, matplotlib, seaborn, scikitlearn, nltk etc.
For the language itself, the least I could recommend include concepts like oop, iterators, generators, basic data structures and built-in types

[balmy bramble]

Should I try to get an internship or a job first?

[signal hemlock]

hi, I'm also currently trying to apply as an intern on various companies but I havent received any feedback from the places i have applied to, is it acceptable if i share my resume here? (without doxxing myself) just to see if it is professional enough.

[inner fox]

Make the "summary" section in bullet points. That paragraph is very imposing and might not be read thoroughly by the recruiter/interviewer .

[sudden quartz]

no. not enough prestige

the absolute state of swe internships

[sudden quartz]

internship. if youre early in your own career that is

[sudden quartz]

sure. landing internship is hard though so id be surprised if anything was wrong with it

[keen locust]

can someone help me with how can I become a machine learning engineer. I already know machine learning, I have done multiple courses on it. What should I do next?

[radiant moon]

get some job that's at least vaguely related

[signal hemlock]

i agree that there might not be much i can do that would create an immediate impact, but i always have this nagging self-doubt about it not being good enough since it is not the standard format, should i switch to a more plain ones?

[rare wyvern]

Not sure about the format but...
Got featured -> Featured
You could also remove the A from the first word of the project descriptions, but that's not a big deal

[signal hemlock]

ah will improve the text, thx
but again, the main concern is if recruiters would throw this out of the window or take the time to read it xD

[open crystal]

@signal hemlock we’re in the same servers

Sorry for the ping

[lilac remnant]

What would y'all say is an average numbers of years of experience for $200k salary as a dev

[near ocean]

Depends on the industry, the tech, rhe company, the country, a whole bunch of other factors

[lilac remnant]

Not if you average them

[near ocean]

No point of averaging everything

[sudden quartz]

Tbh I fell asleep reading this. Put your projects first, emphasize your skills, go easy on the space, increase font of your name and identifying information

[near ocean]

Some positions might not even get to 200k even if youre literally a wizard

[lilac remnant]

I'm not trying to get a super scientific answer here, just curious what the community thinks would be about average

[sudden quartz]

super irrelveant statistic but id say thats the peak of career. probably 30 to 40 years

[signal hemlock]

got it, also, I have seen many people putting at max 2-3 projects on their CV, but I have a feeling that videogames dont count as actual projects that the recruiters are looking for, should i just keep 2-3 of them at best?

[near ocean]

If the community tells you 20 years in some innovative cutting edge AI startup and you go spend 50 doing web dev getting 50k what do you gain from that

[sudden quartz]

put projects relevant to the position. if thats game dev, then put games

[lilac remnant]

In 30-40 years 200k is going to be worth today's 100k

[sudden quartz]

i mean, ok? idc

[signal hemlock]

Okay, thank you. really appreciate the advice

[lilac remnant]

You're still acting as if I didn't say average, but I'm literally just curious not planning my entire life around the answers I get here

[near ocean]

Whatever my guy, just trynna say that gross averages like that dont help anyone at all
Ask a more targeted question if you want meaningful thought-out answers

[lilac remnant]

I'm not sure why you think I'm looking for help

This is career discussion I was trying to start a discussion not get lectured by a pedant

[near ocean]

You sure did start a discussion

[lilac remnant]

You're just assuming that I'm going to take an answer someone gives and take it as gospel for my own career

[sudden quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/guy-arguing-guy-talking-to-wall-talking-brick-wall-gif-18667615

[near ocean]

Youre not the only one using this channel and just cause you have some other intentions about what youre gonna do with the answer doesnt mean we have to leave silly questions in here for everyone to read

This channel is supposed to facilitate some higher quality discussion about careers related to python and not "what do i gotta do for $xxx"

[sudden quartz]

Who thought lowering the wait time on career discussion back to 20 sec was a good idea

[lilac remnant]

Did I ever say anything about myself in my question? I don't need you telling me how useful an answer to my question would be. If you don't care for the question, just don't reply, don't whine about the question

[near ocean]

Sigh, this channel is a mistake

[lilac remnant]

No one is forcing you to respond, yet you feel the need to keep whining about it

[sage pumice]

the number varies wildly depending on location, company, etc. it could be 10 years, it could be 40 years

[near ocean]

Stop whining, the guy isnt gonna like that theres nuance to careers /s

[lilac remnant]

People still pretending I didn't say average

[sage pumice]

the average isn't very useful in this case, since the range is so large

[lilac remnant]

Why do you all feel the need to keep telling me what's useful

I don't care if you answer about a specific industry

These non-answers are wasting both our time, just don't respond if you don't want to answer

[sage pumice]

lol

[near ocean]

It takes 0 time in a faang straight out of college, there you go

[sudden quartz]

put the wait time back to 5 min @ admin

[near ocean]

Reminds me of that old saying, "if you have to ask, you cant afford it"

[lilac remnant]

I'm done responding to trolls but if anyone wants to give their two cents on an actual answer feel free

[lilac remnant]

credit where credit's due, this was an answer, thanks

[smoky quest]

5 - never

[shadow moss]

There is no years of experience, it will be dependent on your education, location and skillset

[radiant moon]

and years of experience 🙂

during the interview, "years of experience" probably won't matter much. But it'll matter a lot to get to the interview in the first place

I imagine HR will just "plonk" your resume if e.g. they're looking for a Senior Whatever and you graduated from college this summer

[near ocean]

I wonder if they'll call you guys trolls for suggesting the question is not as simple as they made it out to be

[lilac remnant]

I mean people are still misreading the question. It wasn't asking how many years of working until I get $200k, I asked of the devs making $200k, what's their average years of experience

[radiant moon]

I can think of one person who's in the ballpark and I think he has like 35 years

[lilac remnant]

35? Might as well be a million :)

[radiant moon]

"Slow and steady wins the race"
I'm thinking of someone else who probably has 25 years but I bet he makes more like $300K

[olive inlet]

Would Python + Rust be a decent combination for careers in the future since Rust is blowing up?

[radiant moon]

well, that'd depend on how much time and effort it will take you to learn Rust
if it's just a few months, sure

[lilac remnant]

In my ideal world it would be. Not sure Rust has that much adoption yet though

[radiant moon]

I don't think I've ever heard of it being used "in industry"
doesn't mean it isn't; just that it's not popular

[lilac remnant]

Is that salary or total compensation? Might as well ask what industry as well

[radiant moon]

salary; total comp is probably infuriatingly higher 🙂
his title is "Senior Principal" last I checked

[rare wyvern]

I feel personally attacked

[radiant moon]

he's just talking

[lilac remnant]

Oh so he's part owner then?

[glacial apex]

Hi

[near ocean]

Then you have https://www.levels.fyi/company/Google/salaries/Software-Engineer/L3/

[glacial apex]

i am a young developer(student).
and i've been coding for quite some time(1-2 years)
i am considering developing and it's connected jobs (maybe teaching , etc)
i am concerned about the future of the career.
when i become 30 or 35, i defiantly can't compete with a 18 old.
he'd learn new techs 10 times faster than me, because i would have a lot on my plate in the time.
i am sure you know where i am headed.
what is the solution here

[radiant moon]

when you become 30 or 35, you'll be about 10 times as productive as the 18-year-old
trust me
well maybe not 10. But a lot.

[glacial apex]

everybody has told me that you can move to the management department and all that.
but that needs a set of skill every programmer would n't have.
so it can kind of be a hard shift

[radiant moon]

I've been at it for decades and have never had any interest in moving to management

[glacial apex]

the thing is,
I,right now can code anytime i want. specially nights.
but let's say i have kids and more responsibility, i can't be awake at night.
rest of the day i am going to be caught up in lots of other things( idk what they are but i know i wouldn't have this much freedom)

[glacial apex]

well ,you are right about that

[radiant moon]

you seem to think that the only thing that matters is "number of hours spent writing code"
in my experience, you spend maybe 10% of your time writing code

[glacial apex]

so you've never had a difficulty in these kind of areas.
that some 20 year old would replace your job in a company you worked for a long time?

[radiant moon]

correct
there's an awful lot more to Real Jobs®️ than just coding skill
coding skill is table stakes

[glacial apex]

not just the time, of course you wouldn't have enough focus either. (you are thinking about the way to design your API, but deep down you are thinking about your son's bad tooth )

[glacial apex]

i would really like to learn about these skills , like what?

[radiant moon]

18-year-olds worry about their cars and their girlfriends/boyfriends 🙂

[balmy spade]

But that's life. That's learning balance and focus. Both of which make you far more valuable than the junior that hasn't had those challenges yet. Learning to unplug when work is done and plug in when work is on.

[glacial apex]

quite right, but deep down you know what i mean🥴

[glacial apex]

hmmmmm, i think that's accurate

[radiant moon]

I guess I know, but ... 🤷 all I can say is, it hasn't been a problem for me

[glacial apex]

maybe it wouldn't be a problem for me either.
who knows, maybe i'll be a badass like you

[radiant moon]

I'm the furthest thing from a badass

[balmy spade]

"practical" comes off as "badass" sometimes

[smoky quest]

yeah, and the average is between 5 and never

[glacial apex]

i don't know you, but i know you've faced my fear and passed it. that's quite badass for me

[radiant moon]

well good!

[glacial apex]

OK!, thanks for your help

[lilac remnant]

You can't read. The average can't be never

[smoky quest]

garbage in, garbage out 🙂

[rare wyvern]

Many (most?) coding jobs never get to $200k though, you need to be a lead/manager or something, and you can get a manager promotion without much coding experience. The average wouldn't make sense because the average of 5 and infinity is still like infinity.

[smoky quest]

fyi, you don't need to be a lead/manager. mid-level / senior can be enough.
My guess is they just reached that milestone and are trying to make themselves feel better by comparing to the "average"

[lilac remnant]

I already clarified this, but if you read the question, I asked the average years of experience of devs making over $200k. I didn't ask how long it takes any dev to reach $200k

Someone making $200k can't 'never' have reached $200k

[rare wyvern]

In that case it's going to be the field average for overall yrs exp +7 or so

The average years of experience for an amount of money will be very similar to the average years of experience in the industry because most of the difference in pay is not experience, but is the position, company, location, and abilities of the person

[lilac remnant]

So you'd put the average to cross that threshold at 7 years?

[rare wyvern]

No, +7... If the average person has 20 years of experience, then the average person over 200k has 27 yrs exp

[rare wyvern]

I mean that's mostly a guess as well, but it's clearly a difficult question

[ivory sluice]

i'll give you 1 data point. my dad started as a dev in fintech in a high COL area. he is now at $190k base salary, $220k total compensation. his current title is 'vp' (misleading as there are probably thousands of employees with this 'vp' title) and it's a managerial role, he doesn't write much code himself anymore. he started this career path in 2005 and said it took approx 13 years to get to this level (with 1 employer change in between)

he also did not start as a fresh college grad, he had a doctorate in mathematics and did research

[radiant moon]

thousands of VPs? Really?

[ivory sluice]

big big company. to me VP seems to be pretty much synonymous with a high-level manager

[radiant moon]

maybe I should try to become VP

[lilac remnant]

nah, individual contributor 4 life bro

[radiant moon]

that is the case in reality 🙂

[lilac remnant]

I'm honestly not sure what it would take for me to switch to the management track. Everyone has their price obviously but I'm not about that at all rn

[radiant moon]

in my case: lots of money, plus assurances that

• the work would actually be fun
• I would never have to fire anyone

[lilac remnant]

Those sound like two very difficult assurances to make

[smoky quest]

How could someone provide these assurances?

[radiant moon]

verbally?

[dry sapphire]

or in written form?

[near ocean]

those dont sound like things to be included in a contract

[radiant moon]

nah, no point putting it in written form. Written form is for lawyers, and "fun" isn't a legally-binding concept
it'd have to be someone I trusted, obviously

[dry sapphire]

no, like a text message

[smoky quest]

Verbally or written, these are not the type of assurances anyone can make

[radiant moon]

not so sure

[smoky quest]

that's not realistic

[radiant moon]

well it's never happened, so you might be right 🙂
otoh I've never broadcast my willingness

[smoky quest]

you may be more interested in the team lead side than management then

[radiant moon]

for sure
I'm probably that now, informally anyway

[near ocean]

Oh to be a team lead, even informally

[radiant moon]

just be opinionated, and right

[summer roost]

Many large companies in the US are reluctant to fire anyone for anything other than gross misbehavior. They generally try to convince the employee to quit rather than fire them

[dry sapphire]

hold up...isn't a team lead on the management track

[vapid jay]

can u help me with my headset i dont know why it only works with the left side but not the right side and this is a new headset btw

[smoky quest]

not necessarily

[near ocean]

Im rarely right, but never wrong

[radiant moon]

heh

[summer roost]

No, and check the channel topic. This channel is about careers using Python.

!ot

[inner wren]

Off-topic channels

There are three off-topic channels:
• #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval
• #ot1-perplexing-regexing
• #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Their names change randomly every 24 hours, but you can always find them under the OFF-TOPIC/GENERAL category in the channel list.

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[smoky quest]

What I have seen across them is more like a 2-3 months improvement plan where people get let go if they don't meet the bar

[lilac remnant]

Not in my company either

[summer roost]

Generally employees quit before the PIP reaches its full term

[radiant moon]

I ain't often right
But I've never been wrong
It seldom turns out the way
It does in the song
-- Robert Hunter

[smoky quest]

that doesn't mean the pip isn't taken seriously

We have had people gone through pip and did well and continued to work happily

[near ocean]

I've personally only heard of pip from stories of people desperately trying to find another job after being put on it

[smoky quest]

so it depends more on the company and management culture

[summer roost]

In companies I'm familiar with, no one ever gets off a PIP.

They are let go after N months, or they quit first.

[lilac remnant]

r/cscareerquestions

[summer roost]

The company has made up its mind that it no longer wants you as an employee at the point they decide to put you on the plan. You're very unlikely to change their minds, because from their PoV the PIP is just red tape on the path to getting rid of you.

[radiant moon]

sounds like a nasty company

[smoky quest]

that's not what a pip means though

[summer roost]

I shouldn't say "no one" - I'm sure it's possible. But the overwhelming case is that people quit or are let go.

[smoky quest]

am in at will state. If the company has made up its mind, they just let you go right away. no need to waste time and money on a pip

[balmy spade]

That's not the case though.

[summer roost]

So am I, and my company won't.

[smoky quest]

amazon does not count :p

[balmy spade]

I'm in an "at will" state as well. What godlygeek spells out is what I've seen across 24 companies and counting

[summer roost]

And I'm not at Amazon.

My impression is that big companies do this because firing people affects the amount they need to pay into unemployment insurance

They'd rather you quit instead.

[smoky quest]

We are all talking about our past experience. I would not jump to conclusion.
If anything, it shows different companies treat that process differently and we should not make generalizations out of it

[summer roost]

If some company treats performance improvement plans as an actual achievable goal, they should probably call them by a different name so that people don't apply knowledge of how other companies use them 🙂

[smoky quest]

other companies doing a shitty job is not their responsibility

[ivory sluice]

at my small company, pip for the under-performers you want to push out, firing for the ones you need gone asap

[summer roost]

Using industry wide terms to mean something different than the rest of the industry definitely is their problem

In the sense that it has consequences only for them. When they place an employee on a PIP, that employee might think they're being forced out when they aren't, and so might start looking for another job instead of actually trying to improve

[smoky quest]

Industry wide terms for Performance Improvement Plan is pretty explicit and well defined.
Pushing out people means setting them up for failure in that plan and not taking it seriously.

There are also other and easier ways to push people out

[summer roost]

Well, beg to differ, I guess. In the US, at companies I'm familiar with, PIP is the standard way to force people out.

[smoky quest]

It may be more advantageous for an employee to start looking out (different job, fresh start and salary bump), but that's a different thing

[summer roost]

That system (setting people up to fail the PIP) isn't necessarily a bad thing, either. It's potentially better for everyone involved - the employee can draw a salary while looking for a new job, and the company's legal bases are covered for a for-cause firing if it gets that far

[smoky quest]

If you let go someone, you always give 2-3 months of severance anyway. Firing is for very special situations.
Some of the companies at work at would give you the choice to opt out of the pip and just go straight to the severance.

You typically want people to leave as least disgruntled as possible.

[summer roost]

I've never heard of a US company doing that. What industry are you in?

[smoky quest]

software

[summer roost]

Right, obviously, but what type of software?

[smoky quest]

the usual saas or mobile apps. Ranging from startups to faang type

[summer roost]

Most of my experience is with what FAANG companies and finance companies do. I've never heard of one of the FAANG companies firing people and giving multiple months of severance when they do - which one does that?

[smoky quest]

am not going to give any identifiable information.
But the severance is for letting go. Not firing.
There are also other management tools to get NDAs sometimes and stuff but out of scope of this channel.

[summer roost]

I've heard of severance as an inducement to sign an NDA, but never for letting people go

I guess you're using "letting go" to refer to ending the employment relationship without cause, and "firing" to refer to ending the employment relationship for cause?

[smoky quest]

it depends a lot on the company and management and the exposed risk

[smoky quest]

yeah

[north shadow]

!ot
check the channel's topic, this channel is about 'Python and the world of work'

[inner wren]

Off-topic channels

There are three off-topic channels:
• #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval
• #ot1-perplexing-regexing
• #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Their names change randomly every 24 hours, but you can always find them under the OFF-TOPIC/GENERAL category in the channel list.

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[smoky quest]

look at the channel name. How is it related to #career-advice ?

[violet magnet]

Reading what you were saying about PIP reminds me of books like 1984 that try comment on statism and have things like, "The Ministry of Making Peoples Lives Better" as a terrible example but its really the exact opposite.

[gray anvil]

it's miniluv and minitruth god damn it

[fickle flax]

Hello, i was wondering if there is anyone who got chance to work as a ML intern and if they were to start ML all over again, what would they learn/study? I am in computer science, so i learned already like the math required for ML, but i dont know how to apply the math to real life, i cant find any resource on that, and like. what exactly do i need to know to land a. ML intern? Ive done some research and most say : have good understanding of Data strucutres, linear algebra calc,stats, and ML models which I already know, but i not sure what are next steps to build side projects like that of prossional ML and how to apply the math I learned in ML? I heard trying Kaggle competitions is good and contributing to open source, it that all it is to land a ML intern? Thanks!!

[ashen elk]

depends on your country and recruiters

kaggle is generally a good benchmark if the HR in your country is aware of it

most probably, they would be aware of kaggle, so you can always do those

[warm badger]

hi, if someone needs a project to improve his/her skills in building speech recognition webserver and get some money for it, you can DM to me

[gray anvil]

be good at data cleaning, setting up pipelines, etc. learn data engineering in general, because that's what you're gonna be doing as the intern

[fickle flax]

okay thanks! I. have been doing kaggle competitions.

[fervent veldt]

any courses to start python?

am a teen who is just entering the world of coding

[radiant moon]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[warm badger]

@fervent veldt try this one https://www.w3schools.com/python/

[hollow crescent]

Sup

[carmine dagger]

how long will it take to learn machine learning??

is it possible in a month?

[near ocean]

No

[lethal spoke]

Sure it is, you cant learn everything undoubtedly, but you could learn enough to understand how neural nets work and be able to put one together for example

[near ocean]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[near ocean]

Are you serious my guy
Dont post ads here

[random light]

Hello guys, I love text graphics/typography. And example is like how data is displayed during soccer matches and how news channels displays their data with text info graphics. I’ve started learning Python programming to achieve such development skill. Is it the good language to use or begin with for such projects!?
Thanks.

[vapid jay]

Not an ad. Its an opportunity

[near ocean]

Lmao, does it pay in exposure too?

[vapid jay]

No lmao we just need more devs

@vapid jay Please do not recruit here, especially for malicious projects

@vapid jay it is not malicious though, we only want to help the community.

Right, well, tos breaking

[vapid jay]

Can I become good at coding without joining college

@vapid jay maybe u r tos breaking

Plz suggest me some online learning platform

[vapid jay]

!resources is a nice place to start

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[raven falcon]

I'm soon gonna start ug in computer science, any tips?

[ocean ledge]

don't fail your classes

[lean moth]

ug?

ah cool, ug is the abbrevation of my uni so thought you maybe even meant that

[warm surge]

how can a 14 y old earn money in a legit way (pref online)

[sudden quartz]

its too late

[thorn plover]

What do you guys think about hackathons? Are they legit or is just a way for companies to get cheap labor ?

[sage pumice]

i don't see how a company could benefit from the code produced during a hackathon. the code quality is often terrible, prioritizing finishing on time instead of writing maintainable code

[thorn plover]

Ha, nice to think (some) companies actually care about code quality over "meh, does it work?" 😉

[balmy spade]

In my experience companies care if it works. Teams care if it's maintainable.

[balmy spade]

I would say that if a company is leveraging it correctly, a hack week is a source for the next "thing" and a time to blast holes into techdebt. Both are valuable in their own way.

[sage pumice]

plus, how would the company even use the code. it would have to be highly specific, while hackathons are often open-ended

[balmy spade]

We have themes to our hackweeks but those are just guidelines. Last month I used the 40 hours of the week to clear out twelve techdebt items that just never got priority. Felt good

[thorn plover]

Yeah that's true. I could see hackathons executed in a way that could fix bugs or explore new ideas. Bounties for bugs.

[sudden quartz]

so companies actually gain value from hackathons? must be some brilliant students participating

[vapid jay]

i have two choices for my btech: cse or cse hons (specialisation in IoT and intelligent systems)
i am going to be doing mtech as well, so does the hons course have any benefit or will i be studying extra for nothing?
(in india, for context)

[sudden quartz]

dont use abbreviations here, what does mtech and hons mean?

[vapid jay]

those abbreviations are commonly used in india, cse: computer science and engineering, btech: bachelors of technology, IoT: internet of things, mtech: masters of technology, hons: honours

[sudden quartz]

Thought so just making sure. So since youre getting the masters, honors is the obvious way to go. Academia is elitist like that ultimately

are you already confirmed to be in the mtech program or do you still have to apply ?

[vapid jay]

i will be starting my btech course next month, but i am planning on doing my masters after im done

[unique light]

does anyone know how to get started beyond the basics?

[sudden quartz]

yep so do that honors track. rack up any prestige you can get sadly

[sudden quartz]

do algorithms on any algorithm site

[unique light]

What's an algorithm site

[sudden quartz]

codesignal.com

[unique light]

Okay, thanks

[hardy briar]

hey guys, how you doing?

I've been looking for freelance jobs but i'm not really good at finding customers, does anybody have any kind of "agency" and wants some workforce? as a contractor?

I have 2 years of python programming experience, I already have a job but I kinda have some free time and could make an extra

[ivory sluice]

@rugged bobcat

[worldly sigil]

I love machine learning but I don't know which career to pick should I just go work at Apple? As a machine learning scientist

[near ocean]

you say that as if working for apple is an easy thing or a given

[worldly sigil]

Oh no

I know that working at apple is very hard

But I am trying to meet all requirements

But is there another companies I could work at

[brittle crater]

guys i have an associates degree in engineering, i am trying to get a job to save up money and go to college whilst working. I enjoy using excel, data entry, i won't mind learning more python (I have a basic understanding) as well as Matlab. I like Stat, Linear Algebra, I enjoy math and physics. What jobs can i get that pay at least 40k+ without extensive experience in coding and without a BA in engineering

[gaunt rose]

Hello, I am looking to hire a dev for a project I am working on. Preferably Python/Java. I am looking for someone Russian/Ukranian. Please shoot me a dm if you want more details 🙂

[vapid jay]

\

[round notch]

https://github.com/vsaveris/trading-technical-indicators whose interested in working this project? i dont where youre from. just gotta be able to understand whats needed. WIll pay good money

[pastel dune]

I want to discuss my careeeeer

[spice nymph]

I think I want to get into coding as a career but I don't know where to begin. I am practicing and learning Python right now but I dont know where to go from there

[vapid jay]

#databases

[merry sphinx]

Hello, guys. Is there anybody, who has a lot of work. I should many work and solve different problems. I need to learn, but procrastination wins me. I want to find friends-coworkers. Please help me. I fell I waste my time and life

[remote wraith]

hey anyone knows a website with a placement guarantee in python-django

[dry sapphire]

hopefully this is not offtopic; is there anywhere I could go to learn more about the environment (like curriculum/social life etc.) for CS Masters’ degrees in the US?

[vapid jay]

are there any companies based in the UK who can offer on-the-job training based in Web development primarily?

[marsh wind]

@quaint patrol this is not a correct channel to ask for help, pls take a look here #❓｜how-to-get-help

[vapid jay]

I'm thinking of becoming a software engineer because Im quite passionate about programming but I'm seeing the money side of things and it's really just around low to mid 6 figures, which is good but I'm kinda wanting to know if it's possible to make 7 figures

What's the quickest cert or degree i could get that can help me land a job in the programming/tech field for USA?

[buoyant seal]

everything is possible, if you are entrepreneur 😉 who makes his project as software engineer.

[vapid jay]

O yeah, that's one of the main reasons I'm pursuing this path. I can bring my ideas to life and make hella money through that.

[craggy wave]

Seven figures in what currency/region?

[vapid jay]

Usd, and prolly silicon valley. I'm aware of living expenses there btw

[craggy wave]

mid six figures seems high for silicon valley, with the exception of some jobs with a higher level of seniority at the known suspects (high paying companies)

I know that some companies go there for those high seniority levels (facebook, google, and so on), but you're not going to get there quickly

[vapid jay]

ouf thats a bummer, gonna have to rethink ig. My parents want me to go to the medical route or engineering route. But my uncle says that there is a path in medical IT. Which makes crazy money. But eh developing is just my type of thing so yeah...

[vapid jay]

prolly 5-10 years im guessing?

[warm badger]

hi

[zenith stratus]

I need some help , actually I am thinking to drop out like i haven't enrolled yet in a university but I dont want to . My parents want me to go to University. I want to pursue data science as a career and I am convinced that I can do it better by myself rather than from a University. What should I do ? And yes my parents don't even have a clue that I am thinking to drop out like its not normal over here . Anyone who can help me or talk about this please dm me . Thank you

[buoyant seal]

I would advise better going through university, it is tough to land on a first job without it

you will have a lot of free time during uni, all unis usually have quite relaxed.... learning schedule compared to real life learning
use your free time to get ready for data science 😉

[lilac remnant]

Yeah agreed, getting a start without a degree isn't impossible but you're going to really have to distinguish your resume to have a chance at a hiring manager not throwing it out when they see you didn't go to Uni

[buoyant seal]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

In highly competitive careers
Whether it be movie stars, or athletes, or musicians, or CEOs of multibillion-dollar corporations who dropped out of school, popular media often tells the story of the determined individual who pursues their dreams and beats the odds. There is much less focus on the many people that may be similarly skilled and determined but fail to ever find success because of factors beyond their control or other (seemingly) random events.[10] This creates a false public perception that anyone can achieve great things if they have the ability and make the effort. The overwhelming majority of failures are not visible to the public eye, and only those who survive the selective pressures of their competitive environment are seen regularly.

don't be fooled by stories coming from survivorship bias. Make your chance better by learning in uni

[near ocean]

youre not going to do better by yourself than in uni. dont drop out

[zenith stratus]

I know and I am not even expecting this stuff . Just that I think uni takes wayyyy to much more time than actually required for the course. And yes it is too expensive too. I always have been a self learner. I studied pretty much by myself and in this pandemic time it just made me think that I can actually do it by myself without a uni.These factors are making me reconsider my plan of going to a university.

And to add to this its not that i have thought to drop without any plans. I have a plan. Actually I am planning to study my data science from OSSU(Open source society university) . I'll link it down if you want to check what I am saying. https://github.com/ossu/data-science

[near ocean]

thats not an accredited course and would pretty much be meaningless on a cv

[zenith stratus]

Man I said I will probably studying from here its not for a cv or to show someone . Its just that I would atleast learn the things and be capable to get atleast entry level job in the field of data science

[modest atlas]

should i start machine learning now

[ocean ledge]

unless you are an untold genius intellect just waiting for a chance to shine, go to school

[near ocean]

Even if you are a super brained genius, still go to school

[ocean ledge]

why don't you just pick what you're good at/actually like in life

extremely high probability you won't get even close to your money desires depending on your talent

regardless of your career choice

too many people think "i can make x in this field, right?" as opposed to "oh shi i actually have to be good at this stuff?"

[vapid jay]

im good at solving problems and i like coding

its quite diff yk, cuz im the "jack of all trades but master of none" kinda person

so ive thought of sticking to coding.

[tough bloom]

How good carrer is in python ?

[smoky quest]

pretty good

How does that relate to career discussions?

[vapid jay]

Wrong channel sorry

[grand pewter]

(sorry if this is the wrong channel)

I have learned the basics of python and looking to go into deep learning, mechanical inteligence, and AI. I currently use Pycharm to learn the basics, but do I need a new IDE?

[lethal spoke]

No, pycharm will be as good as any other ide

[grand pewter]

i heared about jypeter but idk if i need it over pycharm

[lethal spoke]

You can use jupyter in pycharm

Could use dataspell by jetbrains as well, not sure what it offers but apparently it's tailored for data science

[grand pewter]

do i just do

pip install jupyter

[lethal spoke]

Documentation is here:
https://www.jetbrains.com/help/pycharm/jupyter-notebook-support.html

I forgot that it needs professional edition, which you can get for free if you have a uni email

Also #data-science-and-ml

[vapid jay]

What should I learn first . Java or python

[lethal spoke]

Personally, java

[vapid jay]

Thx

[lethal spoke]

Or c# instead of java

[vapid jay]

Ok

[lethal spoke]

The reason is because it's easier to move from java/c# to python than vice versa

[junior axle]

Hi, so I need some advice. I'm studying software engineering right now. But I have the choice to study computer science next year. Could anyone explain what the difference is between the two.

[near ocean]

you should look up the syllabus for both courses and compare
we cant tell you without you mentioning what university you go to

[ocean ledge]

a fun language like racket or clojure

you have an infinite amount of time to learn a boring language

[regal comet]

I learned Python as my first language that I actually stuck with. I know a good chunk of JS and a lot of C# and for whatever reason I still enjoy python the most.

[true turtle]

Hello @celest harness, as per rule 6, we do not allow unapproved advertising. Please DM @severe widget with the details of the event and an Admin can look over it. Thank you.

[shy python]

hi , im currently doing chem eng at the moment (in university), i realised that comp sci is pretty interesting course ; which im considering a minor / double degree ,
would there be any suggestions on this ?
or should i just go with online courses

[vapid jay]

Anaconda is the way to go. It includes all what you need for data science, data analysis, ML etc. It includes several IDEs, Jupyter Lab and notebook, and all the major libraries like Numpy, Pandas, Scikit-Learn etc. Mathematics, statistics and programming skills are important. Knowledge of data structures and algorithms is also of great benefit when processing large amounts of data.

[haughty lily]

What do you how data science will be helpful in construction sector ? Or how are the opportunity of data science in construction sector ?

[finite swallow]

hello if this question belongs in a different channel feel free to direct me there. I was wondering how I can start writing professional lookin code as opposed to just writing something so that it works.

[near ocean]

start reading professional code

[radiant moon]

If you can easily understand it six months after you last looked at it, you're 70% of the way to "professional"

[ivory sluice]

be aware, all successful university students are also highly self-taught. the successful ones are not relying on the coursework or professors alone, they take initiative beyond the required assignments, and it's often the case that you are expected to teach yourself a lot of the material on your own. this is especially true for higher level courses. a uni degree is not just for exams and learning the material. a degree might be a piece of paper in the end but being a matriculated university student will afford you opportunities that only students from that uni can get: networking events, career counseling, etc. it also demonstrates to future employers that you have the grit required to complete a set of (often strenuous) requirements.

as always, your mileage may vary, depending on where you live, how well connected you are, how lucky you are, etc.

[ivory sluice]

a cv or "things to show someone" are crucial for you later when applying for jobs, especially your first one. is it common for data science professionals to break into the industry without a degree? (any 4 year bachelor's degree or equivalent, regardless of major)

[sudden quartz]

pick up a software engineering book

[sudden quartz]

data science is multidisciplinary. wherever information is needed from data, data science can be applied
but if you want specifics, try a construction sector discord

[sudden quartz]

Computer Science is a great degree. Especially to double major or minor in. if you can do and like it go for it 100%

[sudden quartz]

I assume you are a beginning programmer. It depends on what your goals are in learning programming. If you are interested in Software Engineering I suggest starting with Java between the two. In general, so if youre a CS major, I recommend starting with low-level languages like C

[sudden quartz]

Software Engineering is focused on professional development and the job field
Computer Science is an academic discipline, focus on theory and math
Its important to check the details of your program because not all are the same, and might not follow these focuses despite the degree title.
It depends on what you want to do and like, would recommend SWE because its a common opinion people dont have interest in going into academia and go into computer science without realizing if they had the option for SWE or ISOM that it wouldve been better for them.

[vague sequoia]

Hi there,

I have a question. Where can a person start his career as DevOps engineer? A person who is already in the IT field and is working as a Application analyst/support. Are there people here who came from a support role and is now a DevOps engineer? Who can help/advice me?

[radiant moon]

just check the job postings. Here in Seattle, AWS has tons of DevOps type jobs. I used to work there, and some of the best engineers came from support

[vague sequoia]

Yeah, I live in Holland

[radiant moon]

willing to move to Dublin?

[vague sequoia]

I did some research and I know which fundamentals I need to master. For example

• programming
• linux (already familiar and working with it on a daily basis)
• networking

and after that there are all these tools for example ansible, docker, etc.,

I feel like I have this imposter syndroom and anxiety to learn to code

[radiant moon]

geez if you learn all that stuff, you'll know more than a lot of working professionals
I had impostor syndrome all through my AWS tenure 🙂

[vague sequoia]

Cause I think/know it is my weakest point

[radiant moon]

one of the smartest -- and hardest-working -- guys I worked with there confessed that he did too. I was gobsmacked.
Dude's probably a principal by now

[vague sequoia]

hahaha

I think everyone has it in one shape or form. and nahh not willing to move to Dublin at the moment. I did got a offer as a application analyst for Shell.
However I want to grow out of this role at the moment responsible for 3 applications for 25 offices where I work at. Do allot of SQL queries, manging systems, solving problems and more.

[radiant moon]

I have the dim notion that booking.com is in the Netherlands

[vague sequoia]

So yeah checked and thought okay what would I like to do? I like to do a bit of everything and want to better the process - how to better the process by implementing automation.

yeah it is in NL 🙂

@radiant moon what do you do for a living if I may ask?

[radiant moon]

don't be afraid to take a job at an obscure small place; if you do well at least you'll have something impressive on your CV

[radiant moon]

well, crazy as this sounds, I'm an SDE

[vague sequoia]

hahaha, your funny

Thanks for the talk @radiant moon just got to put in the work and we'll see where we will get

Also one of the reason why I want to code is scripting/automation but more importantly... THAT I CAN DO IT MYSELF and don't need to ask or disturb the devolpers.
I just hate it when I requested something but it takes 1 month to solve (when it could be done in 15 minutes).

[radiant moon]

that's what DevOps is all about
I don't know how common that is out there In Industry, but I do know that's how AWS rolls 🙂

[radiant moon]

sounds like a question for #❓｜how-to-get-help

[undone trench]

Hey, can I get some feedback on my readme.md for my profile on github?

[prime sail]

is a business intelligence dev a good carrier or should I throw it off and switch to just web dev?

[radiant moon]

dunno
I personally hate BI, so if I needed that done, I'd be willing to pay someone a lot to do it for me 🤣

[prime sail]

I don't rly care wut it is as long as its relevant and related to programming xD

[craggy robin]

anyone india heree

[ionic elk]

Me

[vapid jay]

ut

[lime fern]

Have you ever met a programmer who didnt even use stackoverflow

[vapid jay]

can any one teach me python

[vapid jay]

Yes, before 2008, when it was founded 😄

[lime fern]

😂

I think before 2008, they were managing to get solution to their code’s problem

[vapid jay]

hey any one reply me plz

[frigid isle]

Easiest way to learn

Is to go youtube, you'll learn from there

[vast bobcat]

Hello, i'm new to python and i just did an online course to get started. I see that python and SQL are really close. Can you guys suggest me a good beginner course in SQL? It would be amazin if i can obtain a certificate too. Sorry for my terrible English.

[vague sequoia]

@vast bobcat when I learned SQL on my own I went through https://www.w3schools.com/sql/ the turtorials and
https://www.mikedane.com/databases/sql/ went throught these turtorials to learn the basics.

[elder heron]

Hi everyone, I’m looking to get some work experience - I’m studying to becoming a junior python developer. If anyone knew of any availability please could you contact me! I’m reaching out to a few companies

[vast bobcat]

thanks a lot!

[tidal laurel]

do you guys think data science will still be a good career in 2030?

[carmine rose]

Yes it is in high demand in the next 10-15 years, and it is a very good skill to learn

[lone zodiac]

For sure.

[tidal laurel]

cause im thinking of masters in data science

[sudden quartz]

without doubt but remember its just statistics

[languid hound]

do you think AI and ML will be a good career around 5-10 years from now ?

[ocean ledge]

i heard farming is a good career 5-10 years from now

[ocean ledge]

a bachelors is sufficient to get into DS roles, just focus on building your underlying skillset

[ocean ledge]

i have literally never seen anyone with a "bachelors in SWE" be as competent as a computer science major

[sage pumice]

many places don't even have a "SWE" major

[slate prairie]

Most "masters" in Data science are unfairly expensive and don't add much to your knowledge. A bachelors would be enough.

[tidal laurel]

can a bachelor in computer science work?

[slate prairie]

BCS is not enough even for general IT jobs, forget DS. Its not impossible to get a data scientist job with BCS, but that degree would only be a hindrance, not an asset.

What's your current educational qualifications, if I may ask?

[balmy mural]

BCS is not enough even for general IT jobs
Depends a lot on where you live. I'm in my final year for my undergrad and most people who have an updated linked in profile get contacted by companies to ask if they're working next year or continuing in academics. (This is for IT, for DS I'm continuing with academics next year since it's hard to break into over here with just a BSc)

[rare wyvern]

BCS = bachelors? Or something else? You only need a bachelors to get a DS job, plus the right experience. There are obviously a range of positions, but for a junior position at an average company you don't need a masters. Most of my DS teammates don't have a masters, and often their bachelors is just in a STEM field, not necessarily stats or CS

[past tangle]

How is doing bachelor's in Computer science(cyber security)??

Any thoughts

[ocean ledge]

yeah, no-- if a bachelors in CS doesn't get you general IT jobs you really need to scale up your portfolio because more education isn't gonna help ya

when hiring senior data scientists we literally threw away half of the people with masters in DS because they're so generic/low quality in terms of their projects

[slate prairie]

Well, speaking from experience I have never known any BCS guy land a good profile in IT from the degree alone. Most had to really scale up, or get higher education, or move to other sectors.

[slate prairie]

BCS is bachelor's in Computer Science. It's considered lower than a bachelor's in technology degree, which is what most people opt for when making a career in IT.

[slate prairie]

True. My gf is currently taking a bachelors in DS course from IIT, and the syllabus is pretty generic. They don't even begin machine learning and NLP until 3rd year.

[sage pumice]

in what country?

[slate prairie]

India

[ocean ledge]

well... i don't think that says much

[slate prairie]

Didn't get you?

Was originally replying to Siddarth, who was Indian. Sorry if it got confusing for others.

[wild ore]

Hello Everyone

I am pursuing mechanical engineering from tier 3 college in India and need to switch to software development profile.

Currently I am in the beginning of third year. Please suggest me where to begin with. I saw a lot of videos on yt explaining the same and got confused in where to start...

[slate prairie]

Really depends on you, since you will be starting from ground zero. The easiest path would be to get hired by MNC during campus or bulk hirings. They would provide you with the training and you can see how things go from there.
If you dont want that or it isn't possible, you will have to explore various technologies and see what appeals to you.

[wild ore]

Will that be a one way ticket if I go for a bulk hiring as in will I be able to switch back to core jobs in Mechanical Engineering?

[slate prairie]

Its not a one-way ticket, you can switch jobs whenever you want. But your IT experience would count for zilch if you switch to core mechanical engineering later on.

[wild ore]

Understood

Can we mention open cv projects on resume?

Like the source code is available on the internet and if one knows how it works and is able to explain it line by line in the interview, will they count it as if it is done by you?

[granite timber]

hello

[smoky quest]

no

[lean gazelle]

ive been asked to send a cv for the first time but no matter how much i read it idk if i wrote it professionally

[smoky quest]

It's like looking at a building and talking about its architecture style VS actually making that building and thinking about it

[lean gazelle]

can i send it to someone just to check if its ok to send it to the recruiter

[smoky quest]

send a link here

[lean gazelle]

what kind of link?

[smoky quest]

A link people here can click on so they can give you some feedback

[lean gazelle]

i wrote it off a template on word lol

[smoky quest]

Like am gonna download a random word doc from a stranger on the Internet

[lean gazelle]

can i send a screencap of it to u in dm

[smoky quest]

anonymize it and upload a pdf somewhere

Companies will require either a word doc and/or pdf. So you are gonna need a pdf version anyway

[lean gazelle]

i was keeping it on word for the moment in case i needed to do any changes

[smoky quest]

also screencap aren't great because I cannot select text to give you feedback

Yeah, what I do is keep the master document and then export PDFs as needed

[lean gazelle]

okay i converted it to pdf and removed any identifiable data, can i send to you in dm?

[smoky quest]

nah, just use a public pdf hosting

others in the channel may also have some helpful feedback!
And other candidates may also be interested in learning from your resume

[lean gazelle]

i don't feel like sharing it here, hope you understand, thanks for the response tho

[smoky quest]

no worry. Good luck!

[sturdy crypt]

hmm hii

i got a question

im new to this server, so idk if im in the right channel

[sudden quartz]

thats a great degree.

[smoky quest]

If you don't ask your question, we will never know

[sturdy crypt]

ok lol... so i'll start from the beggining, im 15 years old and i rly like programing and hack stuffs... but my question is, should i continue studying and going to the university or i should be going to a specific skl from now?

[smoky quest]

what's a skl?

[sudden quartz]

Hi, keep in mind things are different in other places. its best to label where your suggestion is from. your comment may be valid in India but in America it sounds like nonsense

[sturdy crypt]

school

[sudden quartz]

skl = school or skl = skill @sturdy crypt

[sturdy crypt]

skl= school

[smoky quest]

ah. Not everyone is using english as a native language. SMS writing can create ambiguity.
The typical route would be to go for a cs degree at a university/college.
So focus on your current studies and continue to learn CS on the side.

[sturdy crypt]

CS is cyber security right?

[smoky quest]

lol. Computer Science

[sturdy crypt]

oh lol

wut do a programmer do in general???

[smoky quest]

They solve problems. That start by identifying the problem and then devising a solution (database, servers, mobile apps, etc.), which include some programming. Depending on the experience and field, it may be more narrow than that.

[sturdy crypt]

is coding and programing the same?

[sage pumice]

pretty much

[slate prairie]

Like I said, I was responding to a particular person from a particular background. If something seems confusing, it is always a good idea to ask for context.

[sturdy crypt]

ok... if i learn to program, will that makes me a hacker? haha

[smoky quest]

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html

[slate prairie]

As a fresher, you can. Recruiters don't expect much from folks fresh outta college. But it wouldn't be best practice to put specific openCV projects that you didnt make on your resume - reserve it for your individiual achievements.
What you can do is mention that you like exploring openCV projects under "Interests" and explain if/when the recruiter asks you more about it.

[smoky quest]

If someone pass some code as their own, that's intellectual dishonesty and an instant ban

[slate prairie]

I dont think he was asking about copying code as his own, but rather if just understanding code made by others would count as something during recruitment.

[near ocean]

Dont put anything on your cv you havent written

[sudden quartz]

youre not in private DMs. Many people are reading your comments. you can fix the issue by simply adding "in India"

[smoky quest]

will they count it as if it is done by you is pretty explicit and I want to make sure there is no ambiguity.
You are right to advise them to phrase it differently, but it should be clear there are lines to not cross

[vapid jay]

Does anyone have info on what subjects I should I pick in A levels if I wanna do software engineering in MIT

[vapid jay]

what sort of tasks could i do to get into data science? I have seen it about but idk of anything to analyse and/or practice on

[eternal yew]

learn data structures and advanced data structures . take a course which has practice problems in it

[tropic echo]

Hey i am a freshman in highschool and i am learning python...can anyone tell me what kind of career options are available to someone woth expertise in python?
Im into ethical hacking and cyber security

[sudden quartz]

learn statistics

[sudden quartz]

Python is just a programming language. A skill to accomplish tasks. You can probably land a programming job somewhere. If you are interested in Cyber Security you should really master C before python.

[lost leaf]

The best thing you can do right now is to gain experience. As redmagic mentioned, you will want to be proficient in C for the field of CS you are interested in. That said, you will want to document any class and personal projects you have done. I highly recommend developing a personal project in C as you will become more comfortable with the language as you use it more and it will consequently make you a more desirable candidate when applying for Cyber Security jobs.

TL;DR

• Learn C by developing a personal project in it
• Record all coding projects you've done so employers can see what you're capable of
• Seek out internships NOW - They will help you learn and hone your skills. They will also count as work experience as you update your resume over time
• Don't be afraid to refer to the Docs or ask for help. Even the best coders look back at the Docs and ask others for help

Out of sheer curiosity, how difficult would one say launching a tech startup is? (I've been toying with the idea of starting that process but I'd like to know what the caveats are before committing to the idea too much)

[ivory sluice]

do you have "normal" employment experience?

i'll take a regular paycheck over being an entrepreneur any day 😂

but if you've got a good idea, there's a market for it, and you can persuade investors to agree with you, and you have tons of drive, why not? i think the biggest caveat will be the rarity of long-term success and the lack of stable income for you in the meantime

[gray anvil]

and the need to be able to wear many hats and have many things under your direct responsibility as the entrepreneur go correctly

if you have a big idea but lack project management and software engineering experience...

[ivory sluice]

which is where having a good partner that has those skills will be handy, but now you got another person that (likely) has to temporarily give up income to work on the startup! my mind goes straight to that lol.

all this being said, i have only very tangential relations to people that have started startups.

i have heard though that the ones with more work experience and that are around their 40s(?) tend to be more successful, bc i suppose they have a general understanding of how broad and massive a task it is to run a business

[robust smelt]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[wild ore]

Let's say for instance if I am in a robotics society of my college and I worked on obstacle detection using python for a club project which didnt participate in any competition. Can I count that as an experience? In which section should I mention it on my resume?

[wild ore]

Yes it is. Can we file a patent in India on a code written completely by us without copying from anywhere?

[smoky quest]

Patents are about inventions, not specific pieces of code

At least in most countries. I am not that familiar with the law in India and am not a lawyer either.

[smoky quest]

the folks reviewing your resume care about what you did, not whether or not it was part of a competition. So it's still great to mention the obstacle detection part on your resume

[wild ore]

Where should I mention it?

[smoky quest]

depends on your resume. Wherever you have something about your experience or projects

[wild ore]

Alright

There are various courses on udemy that claim to make you do projects in python. If I complete 4-5 such courses, where they teach the project line by line, should I mention it:

In the education section as a course

Or

Projects section as a project completed by me.

[smoky quest]

If you just learn line by line, then you have only learnt. You haven't done any project.
So you can probably mark it as the course being done

Otherwise, I would be a successful fantasy and science fiction author because I did read Dune, the lord of the rings, etc. But the hard work is not in reading and understanding, but in understanding the problem, devising a solution and architecture, writing the code and ensuring the whole project is delivered within time, cost and quality and remains maintainable over time.

[wild ore]

Yes, well said.

I recently came across the case competitions of two types:

1. Top institutes give a problem statement with exact measurements and constraints and we need to create a bot for arriving at a solution like picking up a box and then climbing a rope etc.

2. Top brands give a theme on which we need to design creative solutions in various sectors like toy sector, health care, etc.

Which one has a greater scope of learning?

[olive hazel]

@vapid jay This is the spot for this I think

[vapid jay]

Ok so, I've currently self learnt a ton of things to be a data scientist or software engineer. Even if I have the skill, companies are nit picky and are still gonna want a degree

[olive hazel]

those are two very different career tracks

[vapid jay]

Should I do a degree in computer science?

[olive hazel]

if you're looking for one degree that applies to both, yeah, probably CS

if you want to be a DS, think CS with a minor in statistics

[lethal spoke]

Nobody will be able to give you a definite answer for that because it depends on a lot of factors

Though think about this: You and someone else apply for a position, the other person has a degree

Who are they likely to pick?

[olive hazel]

and don't waste your money on an online degree

skill is determined in the interview. which means they have to reply to your application. if not having a degree disqualifies you, your skill is irrelevant

[lethal spoke]

Potentially, every interview is different, some might, some might not

[olive hazel]

there will never be an interview for you to demonstrate it in

[lethal spoke]

Ultimately it's a game of chance, having a degree ups your odds

[olive hazel]

degree matters for about the first 7 years

your career. by then you've got a portfolio, a resume and references

I'm a data analyst with a business school degree. No one cares because I've been working for 16 years

past employers and coworkers

if they ask you for references and you give them the director of business intelligence at AWS, that says something

[lethal spoke]

Yes, typically you can give your uni tutor as a reference

[olive hazel]

you're not expected to have references for your first gig

but have some on deck just in case

sure thing, good luck

[lament pawn]

I dropped out of a degree is it better to go back and try and complete it ?

[lethal spoke]

As above, it depends

[slate prairie]

Yes, you can mention individual and group projects on your resume. Do it under the "Projects" section.
As for learning projects from Udemy course, not exactly. You can definetely learn the project code from there, but that won't help you much and definetely not something you could mention on your CV.
The closest hack would be to understand their code, and use the logic to make a new project on your own. Unless you learn to explore and tweak the code, you wont learn new things.

[olive hazel]

if you were more than 1.5 - 2 years into it, definitely

[lament pawn]

Its been three years since i left school

[olive hazel]

are your credits still good?

[lament pawn]

I need ten credits from three subjects to finish the course

I just need to write some exams that's it i dont need to attend classes anymore.

[olive hazel]

i don't know your situation but i can't imagine a scenario where you'd end up saying "man I sure regret having this degree on my resume."

[lament pawn]

It really haunts me sometimes not being able to apply to top tier companies.
I wont even get a chance to try there mostly.

[olive hazel]

so do it up man

[lament pawn]

the question i'm trying to answer is
does it matter anymore ?

[olive hazel]

only your graduation date goes on the resume, not the start date, they don't have to know about the 3 years

what's the degree anyway? CS?

[lament pawn]

Yeah its a CS degree but with engineering so i have to take two exams on calculus and signal processing.

[olive hazel]

sounds like a goldmine

last DS I worked closely with was an intern and he got hired on at like $85k at 22

[lament pawn]

It does not pay well in my country though.

[olive hazel]

wow really, thats interesting

[lament pawn]

third world problems

[olive hazel]

our borders are swiss cheese with this new president, get a vaccination card and come on over

[lament pawn]

which one ?

[olive hazel]

States

[lament pawn]

what kind of industry do you work in ?

[olive hazel]

I'm a business data analyst, 15 years in marketing and then made the switch

Currently in the home services industry

[lament pawn]

Do you use python at work ?

[olive hazel]

doing it right now

interfacing with the Google Ads API, what a nightmare

[lament pawn]

Data analysts have to do that ?

[olive hazel]

I raised my hand and said I knew how, saved them from having to buy another third party tool

[lament pawn]

Whats your toolbox at work like ?

[olive hazel]

python, looker and snowflake mostly

big learning curve, fortunate to have a patient manager

[buoyant seal]

same thing, same thing

I quite appreciate for that my first work

which manager would wait all the needed time for worker to come from zero to hero?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa0lMzaljTk

[fervent veldt]

thats a BIG switch

[gray anvil]

I made the jump from English teacher to devops networking engineer... 😅 😅 😅

damn tho, 85k at 22. that said, after 6 months I'm at around 75k a year

Tommy is right, this industry is where the bank is

[lean moth]

sounds like quite a switch!

[gray anvil]

what's the average grad starting salary in the states

[lilac remnant]

This channel doesn't take questions about averages well

[gray anvil]

I had an econs degree I wasn't using, tried to pick up data science but got really into apis which got me past my entry interview

[gray anvil]

whoops sorry

[lilac remnant]

Nothing is wrong with the question, I'm just a little salty about all the shit I took for asking a similar question lol

Anyway if you're talking about this field, most people I talked to after graduation were in the vicinity of those numbers you mentioned

Average for all grads is definitely going to be lower

[gray anvil]

ah, wild. I gave my figure in usd but marginal taxes here are much lower

average grad salary here is about 50-60% this

[lilac remnant]

Where is this wonderful place with low taxes

But yeah the US definitely seems to be the place to be for cash money in tech

[marsh wind]

@gray anvil no one takes wellunspecified averages, but chances are if you give country+region/city+some extra details (what kind of grad degree, target industry, yrs of experinece/internsiph) you might get some response.

[vapid jay]

Hey everyone, if you've spent say 1 year and a half learning python without much projets to show for it besides just 1 project. And in that time you have not been working, what would you put on the resume, and the last job you did was 2 years ago. When I say learning Python I also mean, learning Git, Github, a little bit of HTML + CSS, understanding how computers work on a lower level. Wondering what would be best way to show that on the resume. On my resume, I have Work Experience subtitle and Education. I'm thinking of putting it on the Education section

[near ocean]

Build projects

Also i'd have a separate section for projects built outside of work
On my cv I just call it "personal projects"

I think i have 3 4 projects pulled from my github

[vapid jay]

Right, but at this moment, I have one project that I am still working on and also learning OOP with Python

Should I even include that along with learning HTML+CSS+Git, Github... incase they ask what I been doing for the last year and a half

[swift veldt]

If your project is quite extensive, I think it is very much fine to describe subparts to your project via bullet points. Each would highlight a skill or area of programming you focused on/are focusing on.

listing ongoing work is also a great way to have a discussion opener with a recruiter, share your discoveries, difficulties, thought process, etc.

[near ocean]

It'd be better to have a cover letter saying that youre learning new stuff than just have "HTML/CSS/..." on the cv without projects using them

[vapid jay]

awesome, thank you both!

[ocean ledge]

thats pretty underpaid, unless you're in a non tech hub

[swift veldt]

I don't think we live in the same world, lol. $85k is so much. But a tech hub does make a different. An entry role for a PhD at some Facebook-related startup can fetch 200k

[olive hazel]

My starting salary at that age was $26k in Manhattan. $85k for a junior position with no prior work history other than your internship is not bad. I interned at MTV and nobody gave a hoot when it came time to search for a real job.

[near ocean]

26k in manhattan doesnt sound remotely livable

My starting salary was/is £25k in london and its kinda tight tbqh

[olive hazel]

I lived in NJ so it barely covered my bus fare

miserable

[near ocean]

I had to downgrade from my own flat (used to live with the gf) to a houseshare, its terrible yea