career-advice

[boreal osprey]

@vapid jay That's why I said "btw" at the start, and not "continuing". Adding that would make it seem like an essay...

[vapid jay]

I was just wondering because I’m piss poor and need extra money I’m in school for cybersecurity but my hearts in megatronics and all that was just mixed together I feel like I’m stretch thin

[vapid violet]

I am a freshman in college, majoring in software engineering. I started programming with scratch 9-10 years ago and python 7-8 years ago. I started coding with python seriously 4-5 years ago. There are some people like me in my major but there are also some people that had less than 6 months of experience (some zero.)

I would say I started feeling comfortable with making full projects (not just small beginner projects like card games*) about 3 years ago. However I am still learning more every day. Programming is about adapting to current technology so I never expect to stop needing to learn more. It is never too late to start learning. There was someone here a few weeks ago that was learning python with no tech experience to try and get a job and they were 50-60 years old.

Despite how long I have been programming I recognize that there will be others that are more advanced than me for my entire career. You should compare yourself to yourself 1 week, 1 month, or 1 year ago. When I look at my first questions on this server and how basic of concepts they were it shows that I have truly learned a lot.

*I want to clarify that "basic/beginner" projects are extremely important. This is where you learn the basic syntax and concepts. These projects aren't generally as unique or creative as the projects you will work on later.

Another note. I think my progress was somewhat slow as I was learning in my free time and not as a class/job.

Additionally do not be afraid to ask for help. Looking up stuff or getting help in places like this will help you a lot as long as you are not blindly copy pasting code

[vapid jay]

But I love every minute

[green dew]

Thank you so much!!

And your commitment is amazing!

[vernal spruce]

Yoo

Just joined

I started learning python ( i am a beginner ) i want to go in tech job like coding and robotics so I started learning python. I am using Programming with Mosh Python Full Course for Beginners video to learn and then i thought let join python discord server it will be fun to talk with people about python

This might sound funny but i want to become Tony Stark when i grow up like Genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropis and for it i will use technology coding and robotics

That's the goal

[vapid jay]

Team up Rick and Tony , Tony and Rick 1000 years

[vernal spruce]

What?

[sudden edge]

Do you hire employees for your company? If yes, could you specify which subfield of software engineering your company specializes in?

[vapid jay]

Sorry it was a TV show called Rick and Morty that I referred basically I’ll help you with any projects you have I program in python (beginner level) I’m I in school for cybersecurity and I love megatronics… I’m here to help ( for free of course) I also don’t sleep often.

[rancid moth]

I just started learning python for the first time ever a couple weeks ago and if there is any there beginners who wants share there coding journey with me that would be sick. I personally push myself to be the best I can be when in a little friendly competition and we can share important info when learning python. anyone down⁉️

[fringe sphinx]

Hang out in #python-discussion , it's full of people of all skill levels

[fringe sphinx]

Yes, data engineering

[sudden edge]

is that the same thing as data analyst?

[fringe sphinx]

No, very different jobs that happen to have the word data in them: here's an explanation https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/difference-between-data-scientist-data-engineer-data-analyst/

[sudden edge]

What skills that you would recommended for becoming a data engineer?

[fringe sphinx]

Start with a good foundations as a SWE, then learning some data skills like database/sql, and standard data libs like numpy and pandas. There's other stuff that comes later, depending on the job, but it's mostly about being a good SWE

[snow thorn]

What’s an SWE

[graceful owl]

software engineer

[outer rover]

Guy can i take photos the chat , I gonna use it in my project to tell the the UI of discord is esey to use , Only your messages will be shown.
Did I get permission?
@graceful owl
@snow thorn
@fringe sphinx

[graceful owl]

not from me, sorry

[outer rover]

Ok thanks @graceful owl

Do you mind if your message appears?@graceful owl

[graceful owl]

if you remove my picture/name that's fine

[outer rover]

Ok I'll do it

[quasi valley]

hey guys need some directions for my career?

[white relic]

What is your current level of education/experience, and what kind of guidance are you looking for?

[viscid wave]

Hello Eeveryon!

[vapid jay]

need help

is anybody here?

[white relic]

Sure.
What kind of help?

[vapid jay]

I'm gonna have an interview in 1hr I have an idea what i should know but if anybody can reassure
python-django interview

[white relic]

With an hour, the most meaningful prep you can do is stuff to help you be relaxed and focused.
Take a walk, take a shower, eat a snack if you're hungry or tired.
There's no studying you are likely to be able to do in an hour that would make more of a difference than those things.

[white relic]

First technical interview for this position?

[vapid jay]

yes that's why I'm so nervous

[vapid jay]

yeah ik, it would be very helpful if you can just tell me some most imp topic which can be asked so that i can revise in remaining time

[white relic]

Without knowing anything special about the company or interview, there's not much to go on.

Some nerves before an interview is normal. Just remember that an interview isn't your whole career. An interview is about finding out whether you are a good fit for the company, and whether the company is a good fit for you, and it's an opportunity to learn about the company and about yourself, regardless of the outcome.

[quasi valley]

Well thought I am a 9th grade student with a hobby of machines and tech

Can you tell me how to start and then how to make better understanding of the language

I want to build a career in Ai ml so what should I do

[vapid jay]

needed this, thankyou ❤️

[sudden edge]

What would be a 'good foundation' in Software Engineering in your perspective as a recruiter in the field of Data Engineering?

[cloud oyster]

Yo man I want some advice here

[cloud fulcrum]

Hii, i wanna take your opinion on something

Do you think i should do a minor in mathematics if I'm majoring in CS

[spare ridge]

does anyone work as a freelancer here?

[fringe sphinx]

A degree, usually CS. Projects that are more than just tasks, but also involve broader skills like testing, ci/cd, DevOps tasks like cloud deployments, etc

[peak halo]

@cloud oyster @spare ridge please always ask your actual question

[peak halo]

it wouldn't hurt, but I don't think it would help you that much, either. math is probably the most common minor for CS students. what jobs are you interested in where you think a math minor might help?

the academic advisor for my CS program said "CS graduates with math minors are a dime a dozen".

[cloud fulcrum]

Yeah I understand that lol, although it's only like 9 credits which is 3 extra courses one being discrete 2 which in my uni is heavily cs related, either way thank you for the input on the situation (also ik projects and internships will be much more valuable than minors)

[delicate bramble]

Hi , I'm completely new to this coding thing and i'd like to know what language I should begin with and what I should learn this for

[peak halo]

Python

[delicate bramble]

Alright

[sudden edge]

You’ve mentioned before that you’ve hired electrical engineers. Can you explain what made you choose them and what skills or qualities they had?

[fallen wadi]

Hi I'm new to python and I started learning for w3schools. Is there any ai or website where I can learn python easily or w3schools is the easy way to learn for free?

[peak halo]

w3schools is probably the worst website for learning python.

[fallen wadi]

Is there any other

[peak halo]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[fallen wadi]

Is it a website?

[peak halo]

click the link

[fallen wadi]

Oh ok

I went into a page of python discord

[peak halo]

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[fallen wadi]

Oh thanks, so I can learn python from there

[sudden edge]

why?

[peak halo]

every page is at least partially inaccurate, and there are so many free python resources that are entirely accurate, there's no reason to settle for less.

[sudden edge]

oh damn

[fallow chasm]

@lethal quail you helped me a lot here before when I operated under a different username. I’ve just had someone contact me via Reddit asking about steps to proceed in their career following an MS in comp engineering in Europe. If you have any words of wisdom for them, please let me know via DM so I can pass along. Thank you.

[lethal quail]

Not sure if I have much advice, my path into a career was a pretty atypical one and wouldn't be that helpful

[fallow chasm]

I see okay. Thanks for reply

[fallow chasm]

any generalized advice for a european masters graduate in computational engineering with regards to job seeking?

[pine sleet]

generalized advice won't be that useful. we can give you more specific advice tailored to your specific situation if you tell us more about yourself

[valid pollen]

Finally verified myself.

[wanton birch]

Guys! Is it bad to have multiple unfinished projects on your github that you link to on your resume? They are not abandoned or anything. They work but have known issues that makes them not a stable release. So I work on them from time to time and just push updates to github.

[kindred oyster]

as long as they do the thing , it should be fine
every project has issues with it , but if it does the main thing it is supposed to do , it should be fine

ex, if you made a notepad clone , it should work mostly but if it doesnt have stuff like lets say different fonts etc, its fine

[stable sluice]

im gonna explode

[kindred oyster]

explode somewhere else , not in chat

[stable sluice]

i have no idea if i should
A. Take mechatronics engineering
B. Take mechanical engineering
C. Take robotics engineering

[kindred oyster]

compare the subjects taught in all 3 , check which one you like more

[stable sluice]

Ill research on the 3

[kindred oyster]

also , i dont really see how this is related to python , maybe try in off topic channel

[stable sluice]

Oh alright, sorry for the bother

[wanton birch]

My projects work within some limits. For example, the flight simulator will work but is currently running into numerical errors in certain flight conditions. These aren’t things I can just look up and “finish” the project like one of those “build your own calculator in C” sort of projects. So they often take a lot of reading up, testing and time. But I update my github with changelog where I mention what was changed and what needs attention along with what I am currently working on fixing.

[wanton birch]

It seems related to career discussions to me!

[wanton birch]

On the “soul” side, you need to look up all the courses for these degrees, try to understand the type of things you will need to learn. See which ones seem more like your thing.

And on the practical side, look at where you want to work (say California) and see which ones will be in demand in 4-6 years time.

[kindred oyster]

Discussion of Python and the world of work

[stable sluice]

Very much appreciated for the insight!!!

[wanton birch]

We routinely discuss resumes or generic career related stuff here. The choice of schooling is often seen as the first or minimal step toward the world of work on here. A lot of young people finishing high school don’t have the world knowledge to make much sense of these things yet. So it can be tremendously beneficial for them to get valuable practical advice from people like yourself to get them heading in the right direction.

[kindred oyster]

what i said still stands

all the 3 majors they suggested are not directly related to python and work
if it was CS , then sure , it is at least related to python , but for other stuff , not much

[fringe sphinx]

This channel covers topics beyond purely CS/SWE careers and Python, altho we try to keep it from going into wholly unrelated career topics. That said, robotics and mechatronics are fair topics to discuss here... altho I'd suggest guiding the OP to a concrete question: why are they interested in these fields/etc, and answering from our personal experience: if they're interested in robotics, perhaps start with learning a little programming and experimenting with embedded or raspberry pi.

[kindred oyster]

sounds like channe description can be adjusted to refelect that then ?

i do agree that the lines are pretty blurry in a lot of stuff , including python chat

or is it like "officially you should talk python here" but in most cases you will allow other stuff to go on ?

its confusing to see a channel meant for discussing python and work and we see people asking should i choose mechanical or mechatronics

like , choosing majors is a whole another thing which can involve diving into topics that are not at all python related

[fringe sphinx]

Agree, it's blurry at times. In general, I think there's: on topic, adjacent to topic, and totally unrelated. Adjacent topics tend to cross back and forth. Ie: robotics.

Hmm, altho arguably robotics is on topic in this channel, but adjacent in pydis (depending on whether we're talking about programming for robotics, or the rest of the field).

[kindred oyster]

i dont have a problem with that sutff being discussed here , i was just wondering if its ok for this channel or not

[buoyant seal]

Probably there is no reasource easier to learn python than this one

[buoyant seal]

Project i am most proud of will be probably never finished, despite me working for months non stop on them
Users just request features more than i am having time energy solving them 😏
Show good documentation, show good continuous integration, show good code quality with unit testing, show good communicating of further development with github issues.
Good projects remain always alive. And it is very hard to reach "finished" state for them.
Show that u are able to work with those projects as example of your future work basically, how you do your work, that all that matters

[fringe sphinx]

lol, I feel that. I'm in year 3 of a 3 month project.

[willow spindle]

should change major from comp sci to electrical engineering?

becuase comp sci is basically a fake degree

[drifting pawn]

if you feel like that then might as well change your degree

[pine sleet]

its not

[willow spindle]

you dont really learn nothin u cant learn online

or just by writing code

[pine sleet]

that may be true but a lot of times employers won't even look at your resume if you don't have a degree listed on it

[willow spindle]

im switching to electrical

but I have been coding for 6 years so I have lots of projects thats why Im thinking it might become the ultimate resume what do you think bro

[pine sleet]

you should do the major you have a real interest in, and the one that would be the best for the kinds of jobs you want to do. if you want to do software engineering or programming you should definetely do CS
if you want to work on things like power grids you would do EE

[willow spindle]

why cant I be a swe with a ee degree

[pine sleet]

you can, though its somewhat rare. companies mostly hire CS majors for SWE jobs

[willow spindle]

you saying id get rejected by the ai filter

[pine sleet]

it may be harder to establish that you know the baseline knowledge they expect from CS grads (since your courses would vary)

[pine sleet]

if companies get a lot of applications, filtering out all the non-cs majors and no degree resumes is probably the easiest/most effective way to reduce applications

[willow spindle]

nah I mean I would ace a leetcode exam

[fringe sphinx]

You don't have to like it, but a CS or related degree is a prerequisite for most SWE jobs. You won't get to the OA for most companies.

[willow spindle]

not true tho I have seen lots of applications that require a cs or equivalent degree

[fringe sphinx]

I think I said that: 'cs or related'

[willow spindle]

well then whats wrong with ee? 💀

[near ocean]

Theres nothing wrong with ee, it sounds like you've made up your mind already so go for it and change majors

[willow spindle]

you know what bro.. you right bro... preciate yall help bro

[stable sluice]

how do i integrate python scripts to a website

[fringe sphinx]

Agree with above, but I also agree with Robin: if you want to be a SWE, a CS degree (or software engineering) is the normal path. The further you get from the 'normal path' the more difficult it can be.

[fringe sphinx]

Ask in #python-discussion

[stable sluice]

got it

[quasi wraith]

Hey I'm relatively new to programming and I was wondering what was more interesting to companies when applying for internships: personal projects or contributions to open source projects

[buoyant seal]

• personal project that is one off business like, which is developed one time and forgotten to dust has lowest value
• open source contribution to some project with multiple devs in it is more interesting than shallow business like personal project (lets say by few times at least)
• personal project that is useful for some people and sky rocketed in its user base to 100-1000+ and higher users, with you leading the project and leading to its maturity is significantly more interesting than contributing to open source project (by dozen of times almost)
• open source significantly contribution to a really a well used/impressive project can be more impressive or can be alternatively impressively different than your own personal project, as it will show skills for communiting in comparison to personal project, and ability to get hang of not your own code base that already had its complexity present. (ideally good to have your own personal pet project and open source contributions to smth impressive both. As those two things are sort of showing skills in different areas)

[buoyant seal]

To add to that. All the 4 things above can be considered sort of a complete crap, if code quality standards of those all choices are completely crap.
Working with them will show only your communicating skills at most then

Pet projects and open source are sort of mirrored resemblance of your real work... so it is nice... if your game is at a high level to show off how would u have some work done

They will be obviously more impressive if u work on a not super simple stuff. On smth that has its own... unique features, that is presented well why it is good.

[summer roost]

that's true for basically every degree, and always has been. Courses are taught from books, and you can read books online or in libraries.

[willow spindle]

its different compared to something like computer engineering where its actually hands on engineering

[summer roost]

what sort of hands on engineering? You can buy an FPGA to play with at home. You can fab boards at home, or pay someone to fab them for you

"you could learn this all online" is an argument against education in general, not just computer science in particular - but no one seriously thinks it would be better to have people just learn online at their own pace instead of go to high school

or at least, no one sensible 🙂

[willow spindle]

thats it bro im switchin to electrical engineering 🙏 ✊

[meager nest]

hey all

[summer roost]

university degrees are a good idea for exactly the reasons that high school is, and then some. Namely: people could learn the material online, but most won't. Most need the structure and pressure to actually invest time learning the material, especially material they find boring or uninteresting. And it's much easier to get a job if you've got someone attesting that you've learned the material than if you learned it on your own.

[fringe sphinx]

FWIW, I started as EE and switched to CS. Follow your heart.

[willow spindle]

actually i am followin my heart bro bcz i took cs classes and it was terrible bro thats why I could also get a garunteed job like ee

[fringe sphinx]

Well, that's a flawed conclusion. Nothing is guaranteed (except death and taxes)

[summer roost]

i took cs classes and it was terrible
so... are you going to learn that material online?

[eternal wharf]

Idk if this right place to drop but I had a question regarding my resume.

For the project section of my resume. Should I have many project with a single sentence describing it or should I only have 1-2 projects and have a lot of bulletins explaining and going in-depth of the project.

[willow spindle]

ive been programming 6 years already bro

[willow spindle]

i could be a tech bro, i could do gpu stuff, embedded, i could be a swe, I could do electrician apprenteiceship too

[summer roost]

a CS degree doesn't teach you how to program

[willow spindle]

ee kinda a broken degree pretty much bro
they gotta nerf it

[summer roost]

and anyway, this doesn't answer my question

[summer roost]

somewhere in between. The ideal is 2 to 3 projects, with ~3 bullet points each describing interesting things about that project

[willow spindle]

u could be more specific, like learn what? data structures and algorithms?

[summer roost]

the material taught in CS classes

you're the one who says you could do it online - figuring out the curriculum would be the first step in doing that

[willow spindle]

brotha can you give an example

[hardy depot]

There's a few ee's here. From experience, I have major gaps in my cs knowledge because I didn't go through the coursework of a cs degree. But similarly, I have gaps in my EE knowledge because I specialized in areas, and that means my power systems and integrated circuit design skills just don't exist. I also didn't specialize in embedded systems but I've learned a lot of it after college via online tutorials too.

[willow spindle]

why would i follow any school ciriculum xd
brotha i took 10 week class and by the end we learned 3 things, how to make variables, while loops, and final exam on pushing to vectors..

im way past that level, i think I could geta job rn bro

[willow spindle]

exactly bro.. online is the way, cuz you do it yourself

[analog glade]

So would I be fine if I get the certificate online or not?

[pine sleet]

that's an intro level class. most people feel like they're easy

[fringe sphinx]

Have you looked at the Cs curriculum for a major University?

[peak halo]

I think that a lot of university courses are low-quality. but think of this from the perspective of an employer. why should they believe that you have the skills you purport to have or even look at your github projects when they have ten applicants who all have CS degrees?

[summer roost]

unless by "certificate" you mean "degree", then no

[hardy depot]

I'm actually kind of saying the opposite. Taking coursework for cs would have made it so I don't have anywhere near as many gaps. I've spent years slowly trying to find what I don't know because I piece-mealed my cs knowledge. But similarly, an EE degree won't give you all of EE just because you take that--there's specializations and you inherently can't learn it all

Online stuff does help a lot though

[pine sleet]

+1, great supplement to course material

[hardy depot]

But a guided course provides an amazing foundation

[willow spindle]

im looking at harvards right now, its not very impressive https://csadvising.seas.harvard.edu/firstyear/

[pine sleet]

online resources helped a lot when i took my linear algebra class this past semester

[quasi wraith]

And where can I find open source projects that are beginner-intermediate level?

[pine sleet]

this is first year. anyone with a fair bit of programming knowledge can skip past most of the first year cs classes

[peak halo]

github has a search feature for that

[quasi wraith]

where at?

[willow spindle]

well a downside to school is also 45% is actually working on your degree the rest is the other filler work and other classes, if I took ee, I could study cs in my free time too

i also made some friends so I can ask them what they are learning

[pine sleet]

this is a fairly standard course requirement for cs majors https://www.eecs.mit.edu/academics/undergraduate-programs/curriculum/6-3-computer-science-and-engineering/

[peak halo]

you can find it. I believe in you.

[analog glade]

oh ok

[pine sleet]

so things like

• databases
• operating systems
• distributed systems
• statistics
• computer networking
  and of course stuff like linear algebra, discrete math, data structures

[fringe sphinx]

There's another 50-100% that's -not- coursework (yes, adds to 200%)

[willow spindle]

wooow thats so easy jeez

[quasi wraith]

I did it

[summer roost]

people have a lot of trouble committing to self-teaching things that they find uninteresting, too. I would never have learned linear algebra if a university course hadn't forced me to, because I find it boring and unintesresting and demotivating

[willow spindle]

well im not arguing for dropping out of college breh

[hardy depot]

I still don't have an honest grasp of it and I took it at uni.. >.>

[summer roost]

you are arguing against the need to take certain courses, though.

[fringe sphinx]

Functional programming is my bugaboo

[willow spindle]

no I didnt actually i came in here asking if I should drop cs and take ee,

[summer roost]

oh, god, yeah. I was forced to learn some functional programming languages for the degree, too, and there were definitely some things there that I hated and would never have learned if I was choosing what to work on

[pine sleet]

that, by extension means you won't be taking certain courses

[summer roost]

Scheme was not fun for me

[analog glade]

Im asking cause Im gonna eventually try to get a master of liberal arts in extensive studies and field of CS, Its says Its online as well as a 3 week on campus requirement

[willow spindle]

at my school most of the engineering classes overlap for the first two years of school

i took cs classes first term but it counts for ee too its like I didnt even switch majors

[analog glade]

will cost 3k+ excluding housing, food, etc

[pine sleet]

yeah this is fairly common for the first year or so within similar engineering programs

[willow spindle]

yea and also I would probabaly think math is gonna be pretty similar, i dont think Im making a mistake switching majors

[pine sleet]

some schools (including mine) don't even sort you into a major your first year. all engineers take the same courses their first year

only then do you officially get accepted into your major your 2nd year

[analog glade]

cool

[fringe sphinx]

I like this

[pine sleet]

it's a win-win for everyone but only if you had a really good GPA. otherwise you may not get into your program you wanted and now you either have to go to some other university (after already spending the money for 2 semesters) or sticking it through a major you don't want to be in

[willow spindle]

what country?

[pine sleet]

US

[hardy depot]

If you want to do EE things yes, but it's uncommon to assume you'll walk out of college with an EE degree in coursework, and a cs degree in materials you worked on in your free time. it isn't the same, and if CS is your passion, we're saying you'll have a better foundation in a CS degree. If EE world is sincerely interesting, go for it. I have no regrets about focusing on EE, but even with all of the years of learning CS things I have under my belt, I don't have the same skills or knowledge that a student with a cs degree has.
That's not a bad thing and in many ways it's served me really well, but it does mean that I have had to be forward about where my knowledge falls short. That's what we're trying to tell you through this. An EE degree will give you great skills, but so does a cs degree, and it's really really rare that folks self study to supplement the gap.

[willow spindle]

fasho lets say i graduate with an ee degree but I really wanna do cs, what did I miss?
i been programming ~5-6 years and another 4 cuz Im a freshman so itll be 10 years of programming with an ee degree

[summer roost]

online degrees are about as valuable to employers as in-person degrees. Arguably they're less useful to students, though - you miss out on a lot of networking opportunities and chances to build connections and relationships. And on job opportunities, too.

[analog glade]

I guess but I really dont have no other choice, Ill have to find some other way to network

[peak halo]

I have exactly the job I've wanted since I was a teenager, and it's only because of things I did on-campus that wouldn't have been an option if all I did was go to online lectures and not network with classmates and professors.

[summer roost]

fair enough. An online degree program is definitely the best choice for some people

[analog glade]

Yes, Its a good thing that I have alot of spare time and id think that my biggest advantage

[summer roost]

it's helpful to know that there will be things that you'll be missing out on, and to try to find ways to fill those gaps on your own

[fringe sphinx]

Look at the courses/curriculum for a CS degree and compare to a EE curriculum. That's the best way to understand a degree.

[summer roost]

lets say i graduate with an ee degree but I really wanna do cs, what did I miss?
all of the classes for the CS degree that don't overlap with the EE degree

[lucid matrix]

Didn’t study CS in school (math/econ) but just looking at a topic list doesn’t say much on its own imo. Depth and quality of instruction matters more.

Assuming some baselines are cleared ofc

[fringe sphinx]

And: effort matters even more than depth and quality of instruction.

[hardy depot]

For me, database and networking. My focus in EE was bio-signal's and data compression, so a lot of database things didn't work for the projects I worked on. I focused on DNA, and while sql has gotten better, it just didn't work super well for full dna sequences, or the added info in fastq files. So I just am weak there, but have a solid grasp on low memory footprints and divide and conquer techniques to drop some text matching algorithms from "runs to the heatdeath of the universe, give or take half a universe's lifetime", to a week and keeping it in under a gig of ram.
I also just have a bad grasp of networking. So much of networking and protocol is understanding the history of the internet, and the conditions that made a protocol make sense. MQTT holding it's origins in oil pump's relays/scada was a wild thing and made the protocol make a ton more sense to me. Those smaller bits are what changes a lot of "I can do it," to "I understand this, and can avoid pitfalls well in advance".
There's also a ton more I don't know I don't know until I get into a conversation where both I and the person I'm talking to/working with assume we have common ground

[lucid matrix]

Yeah definitely. You can coast and not challenge yourself pretty much anywhere I think

And still leave with a degree

[fringe sphinx]

One of my best hires went to a (as he would describe it) terrible CS program at a bottom tier school. Top notch engineer. High effort individual.

[analog glade]

If I start using my spare time wisely and put the pedal to the metal in terms of studying then I dont expect to encounter too much dificulty into getting a position

[buoyant seal]

The simplest solution is just building your own projects than trying to participate in open source

https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#TestDrivenDevelopmentByExample
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#UnitTestingPrinciplesPracticesandPatterns

Learn how to build stuff with code quality on your own for zero. Help others later

[buoyant seal]

Otherwise every open source project is individual its own experience. U need to find libraries u fall love with, projects you are interested to use in different communities. You need to be good user understanding pros and cons of some project, and having interest in it in order to start helping.
Become user of more apps in chosen language, find what u love, and u will discover what u would not mind improving.

Question how to find projects made in specific language. Grow to learn their ecosystem of libs or find things like gaming community building mods in interested to you language and etc

But first easier to learn building your own first, as long as u master code quality eventually

[craggy vale]

how do i buy an openai api key?

[balmy spade]

A bit off topic but the answer to your question probably lay here: https://openai.com/api/pricing/

[craggy vale]

Thank you!

Sorry if it was off topic, I just put the question right off the bat without thinking abt it

[faint field]

Find them on github for free because people don't know how to obfuscate keys lol. THIS IS A JOKE DO NOT DO THIS.

[fallen gyro]

its not about obfuscation, its about not sharing them to public repos in the first place

[boreal tundra]

Guys

[stark moth]

can anyone tell me what projects should i make in the basic of pytgob

python

[small cloud]

what are you looking to get into? Machine Learning?

[stark moth]

yes, like creating bots and advanced ai's

[small cloud]

research or just fun stuff like running some chatbots?

[stark moth]

what lang for midjourney and chatgpt like ais ?

[hazy horizon]

how we can integrate a bot in whatsapp?

[stark moth]

u asking whom

[small cloud]

they're written usually using deep learning libraries, can be in many different languages including python

[stark moth]

ok, so bassically i'll either need a team or to do just do it with a big headache

[small cloud]

yups 🙂

[stark moth]

ok, so what another langs should i learn do it too/

after python

[small cloud]

i would recommend you learn python and another language like C/C++/Rust in conjunction

[stark moth]

Google says i can learn advanced python in a year!

[small cloud]

machine learning is not advanced python, it's a separate field that USES python sometimes

[stark moth]

ok

[stark moth]

but C++ was mostly for games, right?

[small cloud]

no it's also used heavily to write performant machine learning code

[stark moth]

which langs do u know ?

[small cloud]

typescript, js, python, c are the ones i know well

maybe a bit of c++/java also, though i don't include that in my resume

[stark moth]

k

so can u create ai

[small cloud]

i'm data scientist, so yes I write "AI"

[stark moth]

ohh

great, how old r u

[small cloud]

27

[stark moth]

ok, so can u guide me for any help in python? like u r a professional.

[small cloud]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[stark moth]

don't know what exactly it is, but i'll figure that out!!

hey, last question

is code wih Harry python course good for begginners?

[small cloud]

not sure, i haven't taken any python courses in years

[stark moth]

ok

[timid plinth]

You could Go with Bro Code. Though

It is a 12-Hour Course

[boreal osprey]

I'd recommend Corey Schafer for detailed tutorials of Python

and you could exercise through leetcode, (HOT TAKE) w3schools, or try to practice by yourself

[timid plinth]

@true harness Why?

[timid plinth]

I'll check it out @boreal osprey

[boreal osprey]

literally 149 tutorials covering pandas, matplotlib, tkinter, and all of python as a whole

each one being around ~30 mins

[timid plinth]

Its not about the long the video the best the quantity

It is about the understanding

[boreal osprey]

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-osiE80TeTt2d9bfVyTiXJA-UTHn6WwU *quality, you mean?

the only thing he doesn't talk about in his lists video is the [::] list step function, which is sad :( were they added recently?

[glass gull]

google also said there were hot singles in my area! can anyone help me find them?

[stark moth]

Ask google

😂

[shadow mist]

Does anyone here work in quant finance? Needed advice on what’s exactly needed to know

[vivid forum]

Hey I have a question, are their any contractors in here that might be able to help me? i dont need code help, i just have some industry questions

[near ocean]

A good degree from a high ranking university in maths/computer science/engineering and the ability to solve their silly leetcode interviews

[white relic]

There are some. What questions do you have? (Note that a lot of questions about industry and especially contracting are very country specific, so you should probably mention your location as well)

[vivid forum]

I am just trying to ensure that I am providing a good price for the work I do, So the work that the client I have wants done is a Full Frontend in Flutter, and a Backend with GCP Cloud functions and a NoSQL DB, and I want to know what a "fair" price for it is. I am in the US and the company is too.

its looking like a 6-9 month project. with around 10-20 hour weeks

[vapid jay]

hii

[stiff swan]

Hi

[stiff estuary]

hello python.

new to this programming language.

I'm trying to find a proper roadmap to learning coding in it.

[pine sleet]

!res

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[stiff estuary]

Thank you, I appreciate this guidance 🙏 .

[stray swift]

!projects

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[fringe sphinx]

Fair price is complex, depending on skill, experience, location, project demands, etc. One approximation I've used is to start with a typical salary (how much you'd expect to make in a full time job), extract the approximate hourly rate ($100k a year is about $50/hour), and then work forward from that. It's not 1-1 with salary, because you do have a few additional expenses / no benefits. Even if the contract is a fixed cost per project, or unit of time, people still tend to estimate your hourly rate. This process is a lot easier when you have work experience, since you know roughly how much a salaried position would pay.

[regal axle]

Like BillyBobby said, it depends ™️ . With that in mind though, there are a few things you do to estimate it. Basically just everything that is said above. You take how much you "would be paid to do this job full time" and calculate the hourly rate from that. Add in extra costs of things like physical goods or licensing software (depends on situation if this is applicable). And then you include a multiple factor to your rate due to the "lack of benefits" and the idea that you are not working full time for that job. IE if you would get paid 100k, but you only work 4/5 of the year since you don't have work lined up back to back all the time, you would only be making 80k. And that isn't 100k. So what you do, is multiply you number by some %. That depends on a few factors. But it is mostly a feel type situation. Like, shorter jobs will have a higher % increase and longer jobs (total hours longer and not longer amount of time the contract spans) will have a lower one. I sometimes have charged up to an extra 50% here. So with the 100k, that means I would be charging the equivalent of someone making 150k/y. But this number fluctuates based on the factor of "how much can I charge this client?" That might sound rude or scummy. But genuinly, you charge what the client is comfortable to pay for the work. I generally walk in with a floor for the job but no ceiling. And I try to figure out how much they are willing to pay. Remember, it is all about expectation matching. They have an expectation of cost + quality. Make sure you are aligned. Even if that means they expect it to cost more; not being aligned there, regardless of direction (up or down) will make one or both parties upset.

It is a hard thing that you build up intuition for over time. But I hope this helps 😄

Oh and also, part of the extra % charge is wiggle room for your estimate. You are going to be off. You will never be perfectly accurate. Sometimes it takes more, sometimes less (most of the time more). And you want to give yourself enough room where you are not misserable when the project goes over your estimate

[vapid jay]

Read the art of negotiation

[fringe sphinx]

There's very little negotiation, in my experience.

More about listening and building a good proposal

[balmy spade]

iirc that is one of the focuses or lessons of the book. Win Friends and Influence People, Art of Negotiation, Secrets of Closing the Sale.

The hidden secret: Listening.

[white relic]

Hi!
This isn't a channel for posting AI generated images or memes.

[vapid jay]

Right! and its creepy

[vivid forum]

Thank you both for the input, I will take this into account

[vivid forum]

I really appreciate

[timid plinth]

Happy New Year Everyone

[timid plinth]

I Don't Know why this chat is so inconsistent!(IN TERMS OF MESSAGES)!

[summer roost]

you're in the #career-advice channel...

[vapid jay]

is there a area here where i can hire scripters

[pine sleet]

no

[stark moth]

hey guys, what is roles?

[stark moth]

anyone?

[pine sleet]

in what context?

[stark moth]

um, roles in this server!

[pine sleet]

#roles

[stark moth]

yeah,

here, python bot is asking me to take a role

what to select? what is best

?

[scarlet elk]

Whichever you decide on

[pine sleet]

it doesn't really matter. they're just for event pings and stuff, you don't have to select any at all

[stark moth]

yeah, but i don't what which role is for what

[stark moth]

ohk

[pine sleet]

hello, i've deleted your message as we don't allow recruiting in this server

[white relic]

!cleanban 1078820632940261426 spamming pyramid scheme scam

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @ivory shard permanently.

[low elbow]

benzene chemical compounds resonating structures generated by python

[small cloud]

cool what is this for?

[languid musk]

science

[low elbow]

yea. a chemistry topic in science.

zoom in that picture, you will see the compounds.

[peak halo]

Remember that this is the career discussion channel, so please make sure all your messages are on-topic.

[low elbow]

ok.

[small cloud]

!ot try this channel

[inner wren]

Off-topic channel

#ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[hazy horizon]

i am working on this kinda mouse controls

[near ocean]

Thats cool and all but this is #career-advice

[harsh blade]

Hey, I am a 15 year old highschooler and my dream career is an astrophysicist. I have been learning programming for like a year right now (mostly YouTube tutorials and Udemy and websites like geekforgeeks and W3schools)
I am proficient in python. But do I think the best way to learn is by doing projects. Any project ideas to do? I tried astrophysics GPT and it gave me decent projects.
but I think i should get other opinions as well

I might draw some inspiration from your recommendation as well

[fringe sphinx]

!kin

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[fringe sphinx]

Please take a look at this list first, then feel free to ask for more specific ideas! #python-discussion may be a better channel to ask.

[harsh blade]

kk

[proper plaza]

Hi, I'm interested in pursuing a cs career, but with everyone saying online that's it basically the "homeless" major since it's very, very hard to get a job even after you graduate, it's pretty hard to motivate myself to do what's already a pretty difficult field. Should I still pursue cs despite this?

[next plover]

If you want to major in cs do it, if you are afraid of not being seen then find a way to stand out, make a website put a bunch of projects on it, write a blog about random computer stuff you do ect

You could also pick an unloved area like networks (♥) since most people hate them it can be hard to find network people

[pine sleet]

it's not as bad as people online make it out to be

if you're interested in cs you should absolutely go for a cs major

[proper plaza]

Looks about right

[fringe sphinx]

For the sake of argument: What do these "experts" say is a safe major?

[proper plaza]

Most engineering disciplines, medicine, law

[fringe sphinx]

Counterpoint: Most engineering disciplines are jealous of SWEs pay and w/l balance. The death of CS is grossly exaggerated.

Medicine and Law are fine fields, but man, SWEing is so much easier with better QoL. (I couldn't do what they do, no way)

[buoyant seal]

As far as i see... person that is having CS major in SWEing and spent time towards building quality portoflio/prepared himself towards desired job role/language in extra self studies is veeeeery highly likely to have a job.

The only possibility i see when it can't be not that, some countries like Iran or smth, can be having very hostile job market towards IT in general, with low population/low job market availability/lack of electricity in general
Also, if person going through the getting degree, completely disregarded learning stuff and chose to cheat all his assignments => then he could be with zero skills during graduation (except having cheating skills), and then unlikely to get a job
TLDR... in my country at least person with degree needs to do stuff Against getting work in order to remain without job in IT

[fringe sphinx]

** ALso, there's claims that Law profession is also over-saturated. I don't know how true this is either, but you'll find the same claims on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/comments/13g250g/if_everyone_on_reddit_claims_that_law_is/

Oh, and medicine... https://www.reddit.com/r/premed/comments/1da9tt4/is_medicine_becoming_saturated/

Lesson: social media is terrible at career advice.

[summer roost]

Medicine is renowned for its terrible work/life balance, at least until you are able to enter private practice. Same for law, at least for associates

both of those careers have a reputation for 16 hour shifts

!cban 1319077276062584894 scam

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @chrome salmon permanently.

[summer roost]

and both of those careers are at risk from AI, too - quite possibly to a greater degree than software engineering

e.g. AI being used by lawyers to find precedent to cite, and by radiologists to find tumors

[fringe sphinx]

Also, relatedly, the law profession has been an early adopter of AI. "TAR" (technology assisted review) is where they review and classify documents for discovery. This goes back to 2012: https://ediscoverytoday.com/2022/02/23/the-da-silva-moore-case-ten-years-later-ediscovery-case-law/.

[clever meadow]

Hey! I recently started my Masters and wanted to create a stream. I wanted to create a body doubling stream where people work with me while I stream. https://www.twitch.tv/stdcoutxyl

[summer roost]

what does that have to do with this channel's topic?

[deep drift]

hi

I think I'm a good problem solver given my experience but I absolutelly suck at selling my work

I will be actively studying to have a specialty

Can you guys recommend me resources to learn how to make $50 a month in a stable way?

I really am completely oblivious on business, needing resources and research recommendations

Thank you in advance

[clever meadow]

hi g.., do you have a recommendation where this post would be more appropriate?

[fringe sphinx]

Reddit?

[vapid jay]

abc to be adopted

[thin basin]

abc.

[stark moth]

Guys, I've created a program. Check It Out!

print("Hello! Welcome")

Name = input("What's Your Name? ")

Age = int(input("What is your Age? "))

print("Your Name Is ", Name, "And Your Age is", Age)

print(input("What's Your Name :"))

from datetime import datetime

def find_year_of_birth():
try:
age = int(input("Enter your current age: "))
current_year = datetime.now().year
birth_year = current_year - age
print(f"You were born in the year: {birth_year}")
except ValueError:
print("Error: Please enter a valid integer for age.")

def find_how_old_are_you():
try:
birth_year = int(input("Enter your birth year: "))
current_year = datetime.now().year
age = current_year - birth_year
print(f"You are {age} years old.")
except ValueError:
print("Error: Please enter a valid integer for birth year.")

def main():
while True:
print("\nWelcome! Please select an option:")
print("1. Find Year Of Birth")
print("2. Find How Old Are You?")

    choice = input("Enter your choice (1 or 2): ")
    
    if choice == '1':
        find_year_of_birth()
    elif choice == '2':
        find_how_old_are_you()
    else:
        print("Invalid choice. Please select 1 or 2.")
    
    again = input("\nDo you want to do it again? (yes/no): ").strip().lower()
    if again != 'yes':
        print("Thank you for using the program. Goodbye!")
        break

if name == "main":
main()

[vapid jay]

not the channel for this

[dapper bane]

Is adding my blogs or my medium page to my resume a good idea ? https://x1vi.medium.com/

plz pong pong me

[peak halo]

you can link/refer to it the way you might direct readers of your resume to your github, but I wouldn't allocate space towards rehashing what you've blogged about.

[dapper bane]

can u explain that again ?

[dapper bane]

I have allocated it like this
itch.io | github | medium

[normal crypt]

Guys what's the best os for programming python in 2025

[dapper bane]

u can use any

[vapid jay]

I need

[buoyant seal]

Linux for the win 😏 Best compatiblity for web development related purposes, due to all servers being linuxes, and due to being very dev friendly OS for this purpose
There are unlikely reasons to utilize Python at other OSes, unless u develop Windows desktop app for some reason in python (crazy idea but happens)

[stark moth]

what happened?

[velvet sigil]

i'm learning python as part of a greater roadmap for devops skills, but wondering if i should apply to python jobs if i go through a few books and courses over the course of 3-4 months(cs50s Introduction to Programming with Python, Head First Python, Automate the Boring Stuff, personal projects) or if that is nowhere near the level of a real python developer

[spare shuttle]

I'm an econ major who messed around with data sci libraries and a bit of selenium and simple GUIs

Is anyone here a biz or econ major with python in his/her resume that could recommend me what skills or projects should I pick up or secure to improve Life Sheet?

[nimble wigeon]

yes

[icy dawn]

Is being a full-stack developer allows flexibility to switch to other fields?

[peak halo]

No. being a "full-stack developer" just means "a web developer who does both front-end and back-end".

[remote sable]

working is always hard

[regal echo]

Is flask is good choice now for web application?

[peak halo]

This sounds like a #web-development question

[regal echo]

yes

[oak fossil]

hi

[hybrid sage]

my question is, do managers profit off this by making the payment of a fullstack developer the same of a frontend or backend's salary?

[white relic]

in your opinion, "should" a fullstack developer be paid more or less than a developer who specializes in one or the other?

[hybrid sage]

depends on how they're selling themselves and what they know

[white relic]

ok...
so I'm confused by the question about managers and profit

[hybrid sage]

Oh I wanted to say that i dont know how superior positions works and how many are there lol

i just said managers since I assume they're the people who go to the recruiter to tell them who to look for

but imo if you're doing the work of 2 people then you should be paid for the effort

[white relic]

fullstack doesn't mean you do the work of 2 people
it means you do the work of 1 person, who does a combination of frontend and backend

[patent estuary]

why did you put should in quotes?

[white relic]

the distinction between frontend and backend can be somewhat arbitrary, anyway

[white relic]

felt right
I don't think it's broadly meaningful to talk about what people should be paid in the absence of context, so I suppose the scare quotes are there to subtly challenge the assumption that it's a sensible question

[patent estuary]

that's fair

[sterile zinc]

anyone here able to help with a couple of dollars, im trying to get a pc to use it for game development and school

[olive thistle]

No one will just gift u money here

Go get work

[true harness]

🗿

[analog sun]

!ban 501347518655758337 Completely inappropriate behaviour

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @sterile zinc permanently.

[olive thistle]

Nice

[velvet sigil]

any thoughts?

[white relic]

Most real python developers have at least a bachelor's degree in CS or a related field. That's your main competition.
It can sometimes be worth it to try for jobs you aren't well qualified for, but it's not a reliable strategy.
What kind of jobs are you hoping for with "devops skills"?

[velvet sigil]

In the long run, DevOps engineer.
I have a bachelors in graphic design 😔and don’t like that; now doing a lot of self studying

Didn’t want to go back to college for two years to learn stuff I can teach myself probably faster

[velvet sigil]

I'm more asking if I would be able to do career work at the level I'd be at after studying those resources for a couple months, so I can at least give it a shot and mass-apply at that point

[fringe sphinx]

Most SWE positions are going to expect more than a few months of Python learning, tbh. However, you could look at other roles in tech as a stepping stone. QA (testing) is one that, at the right company, gets you close to the engineering process and gives you some valuable experience while you build your skills.

[velvet sigil]

thank you! do you think it would be worth after a few months of learning python to look at QA testing jobs and mass apply?

[fringe sphinx]

Sure, but you could also start researching the field now, talk to people in the industry, look at job descriptions and skills, etc.

Could even apply now... there's a wide range of requirements

[vapid jay]

Is programming a reliable career to earn income through?

[vapid jay]

Most projects, especially those on GitHub are free of charge.

[kind salmon]

I need help pld

[pine sleet]

yeah

[pine sleet]

it's open source. it's usually not people's primary source of income

[velvet sigil]

it just seems like a whole skillset in its own

[hexed garnet]

Guys how i can start learn coding?

[strong cloak]

general question guys, im 6 months into self-learning python for data science mainly and SQL for databases , I did calc 1 - 3, linear algebra some discrete math now doing stats {maths also self taught) for machine learning and coded basic digit recognizer from scratch /w no modules, did leetcode, some codeforces, went thorugh entire book on data structure in python and c++ ( c++ for lower level understanding also like using it on codeforces) doing right now simple Algorithmic trading bot from Oreilly book (has some networking theory), So i watch alot of Coding Jesus channel (he is QUANT) my question is how aware i should be with questions being asked like about TCP/IP ( i have book for c++ about networking tho. (free PDF) and wonder if I should do at least half of it) and ''operating system three pieces '' cuz i have noticed its being asked often on his channel and i think its worth learning. Also my last concern is that i know how to write code but when i hear techinical term from python i might not know what does that mean but if i look up the code behind it everything clicks, is it essential for me to rewise on that or should i worry about it later and focus on projects and strictly on ML/DS? Sorry for bad grammar im not native eng. speaker.

[smoky cairn]

just start

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfscVS0vtbw personally started with this video

[inner cape]

hello

[olive thistle]

Maybe if ur like really smart but getting a job after 3 to 4 months aint easy
Also u learnthe best by doing ur own projects not just following books

[lunar totem]

import random

gamblenumber = random.randint(1,100)

print("Tell me a number")

while True:
    try:
        Number = int(input("Dein Tipp: "))
    except ValueError:
        print("Zahl!")
        continue
     
    if Number < gamblenumber:
        print("bigga")
    elif tipp > gamblenumber:
        print("smaller")
    else:
        print("lucky mafaka")
        break     

input ()  ```   yayy i can finally gamble without losing money

[vapid jay]

It feels difficult and a long road to walk until one can get hired or work in freelancing.

[harsh river]

it is.

[warped thicket]

Wont learning coding languages eventually become useless due to AI?

[near ocean]

No.

[warped thicket]

It wont?

[near ocean]

No it won't

[warped thicket]

I think AI is getting pretty advanced day by day to the point i can simply copy complicated stuff from it by simple text requests and paste it to my game

[arctic blade]

There are tasks of complexity that even AI cannot handle. Those tasks that are difficult for you now will sooner or later become simple for AI in terms of knowledge, but for example, AI will not be able to integrate three projects into one whole without errors

[buoyant seal]

May be in 50-100 years if will be invented real AI. Chances for that are similar to invention of a warp drive space engine for faster than light travels. More reliable to build plans without hoping those inventions will appear, as they have too slim chances.

[stone orchid]

there would be less coders required, making the market oversaturated, and lowering the pay

[wary topaz]

created a python program to print decks people submit automatically, attempted to just send one card to see if it would print properly, and its come out at around 80% size? you can see the light reflecting on it with the actual real card behind it, not sure if its printing on wrong paper size? In the output it is printing the size for a4 (2481x3508) i can try adjusting the actual image size but it would mean changing the way it prints sheets of 9 probably down to like sheets of 6.

either way, it does print, and the thing that gets the card image also works

[white relic]

Neat project! But this is the career discussion channel. You can create a help thread for help with your Python program. #❓｜how-to-get-help

[wary topaz]

ah sorry i thought the channel description meant python as one topic and work as another topic not combined

like its okay to talk about normal python here

[white relic]

It's nbd

[vapid jay]

Hello everybody! I have a question - if I plan to become AI engineer is it enough if I major in maths maybe do PHD and know some python. Would I get accepted? I could take some python courses as a certificate.

Is it sufficient to just know python or do I have to learn other programming languages too?

Any help would be greatly appreciated thank you

[white relic]

If you go as far as doing a PhD in AI, you will most likely learn a couple of other languages along the way, either in coursework or as they become necessary for your research.

[vapid jay]

and if I only do PhD in maths?

so I do for example masters in maths maybe PhD and then some courses online for python to get a certificate

[white relic]

you don't just "do a PhD in maths", that isn't really how it works.
a PhD is something you get for doing novel research in some very specialized area. You'd discuss that with your PhD advisor and pick a topic area to do research in for (in most cases) a couple years.

[vapid jay]

well yes you get a topic from masters about which you write and afterwards for PhD entry why it interests you and then do a PhD where you dive into the topic more

because correct me if I'm wrong but when I do maths then I have a lot of career paths to choose from

ofc, Ill need to take extra courses for example if I become data analyst or do something with statistics take a course in that

[fringe sphinx]

Your phrasing is a bit odd to me. There are many careers in "AI/ML" all with a variety of backgrounds. But AI/ML is a field that combines many backgrounds & skills, so you'll generally see people who start with broad foundation in a variety of subjects.

The odd part is the use of the words "only" and "sufficient".

[white relic]

that's not entirely true. It is true that math is foundational for a lot of career paths, but that doesn't mean that doing more math -> more opportunities.
The number of career opportunities for pure mathematicians is actually quite low. At some point you need more than just math.

[vapid jay]

yes the last paragraph summed up my point- I don't feel like I want to be a pure mathematician but I don't know if I should go direct AI engineering in university OR I should take maths in university because then I have more time to make up my mind

[fringe sphinx]

• if you haven't started Uni yet, don't worry about graduate degrees. Just pick a major you're interested in, and balance it with a minor in another complementary topic. Like: Math + CS minor, or vice versa.

[vapid jay]

thank you for the advice both of you! last question - for AI engineer is knowing python enough?

[fringe sphinx]

"enough" is another odd word. Nothing is ever enough in engineering or science.

But, it's the right start.

[vapid jay]

I see your point but would I get accepted into a position with only python capabilities

[near ocean]

No? Do carpenters get accepted to positions with only "hammer" capabilities?

[true harness]

I know someone that only uses python. but "AI engineer" is not very well defined

[true harness]

this line of thinking doesn't really make sense to me. PhDs are a huge investment of time and energy; you don't "maybe" do one

[fringe sphinx]

😢 tell me about it.

[white relic]

what kind of position would that be?
every job requires more than just one skill.
You might get a job knowing no other programming languages than Python, but it's a thin hope to hang your future on. Better to learn a bit about everything you can, and start to focus in on things that really interest you.

[fringe sphinx]

This isn't something you need to think about now anyway. Just focus on choosing a major you're interested in. You'll have 4 years to develop the other skills you need to be "job ready".

[white relic]

You'll be learning new skills for your whole career. There's no reason to limit yourself, now, to "only" what you need to get your first job (even if you could know that in advance).

[peak halo]

I work in AI professionally. Most of my coworkers have a master's or PhD.

If you get either, and your coursework/research is about AI, you will inevitably learn enough python that no certificates would be required or even helpful.

[vapid jay]

yes but I also am planning about doing maths? and also gain experience?

[vapid jay]

Thank you for your concise explanation!

Now fr last question that I have: is it better to concentrate on 1 programming language or learn a few at the same time.

thank you all for your insights and help!

[digital fjord]

You generally want to self study one language at a time, but during university you'll be learning multiple in tandem usually .

[vapid jay]

thank you!

well, thank you everyone for helping me understand more about this field and what is required because my knowledge was quite foggy but thank you everyone for explaining it to me!

[wet magnet]

i am new in python for becoming a machine learning engineer how much python should i know ?? could i need to expert in python first ??

[digital furnace]

If ya wanna learn ml then u should have a good knowledge of phyton and the libraries that are useful in this field i guess the libraries that are useful in ml are numpy and pandas u can discover more

[wet magnet]

okay ? is machine learning and aritfical inteliigence are same field ??

[digital furnace]

No they are having a diff role

[peak halo]

I work in AI/ML professionally. ML is essentially a subset of AI. It's also the only subset people care about, at this point.

AI/ML is the most degree-requiring field within CS. If you really want to work in this field, you should be prepared to get at least a bachelors and probably a masters. Learning AI/ML libraries on your own won't be enough and won't get taken seriously by employers.

[peak halo]

@abstract isle I do not answer questions in DMs; regarding how I got my first job: I was a linguistics major, then I changed majors to CS and worked in the language technology lab for my university, and then I got hired into a language technology lab in industry.

[vapid jay]

Hi! I'm new to the server but definitely have some questions regarding my career. I am a 57-year-old female with over 20 years experience with SQL programming, a Master's degree as a DBA. I started as a GIS analyst many years ago so I have a lot of data visualization experience. Since I have so extensive of a background in various things, I have half of the people telling me that I don't have a specialty. I think that's crazy because I can do a lot of different work. I've lately started to become interested in data science so I'm going back and relearning statistics. I guess what my question is - where do I go from here? What kind of jobs would I qualify for? I've worn so many different hats from reporting to information management . . I'm just not sure where I should target myself. It's also pretty rough fighting ageism. My age is just a number, I still feel 24. 😉😁 I've joined Coursera, LearnSQL.com/LearnPython.com, and Udacity. I'm not going to go back to university and get another degree. Are there any certifications I should focus on? Thanks for any and all suggestions. Feel free to ask any questions if you need.

[devout zenith]

62 myself brain is sharp as ever but for 2 years no one will even interview me.

[devout zenith]

Focus on data analysis given your background that you relayed

[peak halo]

Thank you for your detailed description of your experience.

What happened at 24 that you stopped there? 😛

Regarding what positions you should apply for: job titles are pretty much arbitrary in the world of "people who use Python to analyze data and who might use ML to varying extents". Think about keywords for things that you know about: GIS, SQL, etc. Search for any job listing that contains those keywords, regardless of the actual title, and go from there.

[buoyant seal]

• half of backend development is technically SQL usage 😅 To consider as possible job role direction.
• Besides that 20 years sql programming / DBA stuff => probably should not be a problem going for roles of Database Expert/Administrator and etc leaning more heavily onto infra side.
• data science and data engineering is option as well. I expect your previous experience will benefit potentially very strongly with going towards more big data handling too

Are there any certifications I should focus on? Thanks for any and all suggestions. Feel free to ask any questions if you need.
your previous experience + add to it aws certification above cloud practioner, which are very recongnizable
and it could be some job role, depending on which direction u picked

i mention AWS certificates... because in comparison to any other certs... they are very recognizable and appreciated at least at this point of time. and even for some job roles often demanded in job vacancies
Plus your job role/previous background sounds to me very compatible with them, regardless of a job role direction u pick, it looks to be having all sorts of directions u can aim for

[devout zenith]

SQL programming is not the same as code programming. Data science is heavy in data and code programming. Done extensive SQL work 2019 got a Master’s degree in Data Science it was code intensive

[buoyant seal]

yeah... person knowing SQL can be not able to write any decent normal code in general purpose language.
We can add here that decent general purpose language code from data scientist positions is not super expected at all. As well from infra related roles

[devout zenith]

Yeah, been coding all my life so in the degree program I did advance coding where others in my class struggled allowed me to focus on the data science aspects without worrying about to make it work

[wind cedar]

When it comes to representing a master’s degree on LinkedIn and a resume, which of the three options: track, specialization, or concentration, is considered the most professional to use to represent a expertise in a certain area of study I did during my masters degree?

[peak halo]

You're asking which of {track, specialization, concentration} sounds most professional to describe what? Can you give an example of what you want to describe with one of those three words?

[wind cedar]

Area of expertise in a subfield studied during masters degree

[peak halo]

I would worry less about which is "most professional" (they're all fine) and more about which one is most clear.
"track" implies that for the masters program, there are finite sets of course sequences that you pick one of.
a degree concentration is a credential that you get as part of your degree for meeting certain extra. it's kind of like a mini minor.
if neither of these are strictly true of what you're talking about, I would say "specialization".

[wind cedar]

well im not doing a mini minor

wdym by course sequences?

@peak halo

[peak halo]

what dialect of English do you speak?

[devout zenith]

Canceled LinkedIn it was worthless

[wind cedar]

??

[wind cedar]

What does that have to do with this conversation?

[vapid jay]

I've been a data analyst/business analyst for many years. I was hoping to move forward from that or at least get something more advanced.

[peak halo]

Because the words we're using have different meanings in different dialects.

[vapid jay]

I've done C#, Javascript, Python, and various other languages in programming with SQL. I do have coding experience - but I'd never consider myself a true programmer. I cannot sit down and just write 200 lines of code off the top of my head.

My specialization for my master history was Database Administration. Which is also the title of my degree. However, I found it extremely difficult to even get a position as a DBA in an organization. Usually there's only one or two positions. And the people that are in those stay there for many many years. Also, in order to get that position you need a really solid background and reputation from other companies. A company that hires you as a DBA entrusts you with all of their data and systems. It's really hard to get your foot in the door.

[devout zenith]

Very true

[plain spade]

hello im new at this python im trying to install gym so ai could learn how to play mega man

[harsh river]

ask in #python-discussion

[plain spade]

ty

[harsh river]

<@&831776746206265384> cross spamming

[formal forum]

hi guys

[teal dune]

Not sure if this falls under careers but are there any London based groups for Python Development? Particularly Django

[near ocean]

not sure about django but there are lots of data science and ML/AI groups on meetup.com

[final ravine]

Yes

[final ravine]

https://www.djangolondon.com/

[teal dune]

Thank you!

[wet maple]

how much did u get in yenth

tenth percentage

yes

yes

what abot u

you are what engineer

which state

u ai eng

[fringe sphinx]

Don't trust anyone who says DMs or come to personal messages for no reason.

(it's very unusual in this server)

[whole hamlet]

Hello all. Pleased to meet you.
My name's Mike, I'm based in the UK. Got about 7 Years experience working as a QA, recently got made redundant, due to buy out.
And was hoping to get into Python Development / Data Engineering.
Think I've got a better chance of an entry level job in Python Dev. (And I'm starting to think I enjoy it more)
Than managing to get into Data Engineering, with no experience or Qual's in it.

Been teaching myself python with a mixture of personal projects, cooked up between me and GPT for last couple of years.
And a Udemy course.
I've got good SQL knowledge and experience. And done a fair bit of "Dev" work in previous roles, fixing, maintaining reports (Mainly report builder, not a massive fan), stored procedures.
I've done some automated testing, with Selenium, C#, Playwright.
I've also done some game development in Unity, with C#, Blender, made my own models, rigging, armatures, textures all that. But ended up giving up last project, as It's just a collosal amount of work.

Just wanted some folks to talk to, have an old chinwag, maybe share projects, keep each other motivated etc. etc.
If anyone has any advice, or just wants to chat, feel free to message on here, or just add in the chat.

Getting back into swing of things, after lazing around of christmas, is tough, need to get myself back in gear.

[peak halo]

!cleanban 1143115376830447676 says they're selling social media accounts, has a history of similar behavior

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @royal ivy permanently.

[fathom flare]

is comp sci a dead end? Is getting a degree in comp sci even helpful nowadays? Would I be better off going for more specific majors ? (e,g; cybersecurity, data science, etc)

[peak halo]

CS is one of the most opportunityful degrees.
At my university, those two things you mentioned were concentrations within the CS program. Degree programs that are specifically about cybersec or specifically about DS are a new concept, and they're less established and tend to have less perceived value.

[regal axle]

Generally a CS degree is flexable to go into various other directions. The more specific the degree, the more valuable it is for that specific job ... but that assumes you get the 1:1 job associated with the degree. And considering you are even asking, it doesn't sound like you want to do the hyper specialized version of the job that expectes a hyper specialized degree.
And the best part; you can typically still get a lot of specialized positions from a generic CS degree. You, the applicant, matter more than the degree.

[fathom flare]

Oh, is there anything else I should know regarding comp sci? Honestly the only reason I'm asking this in the first place is because of the sheer amount of negative feedback from people that I've asked that got / is currently getting the comp sci degree. What's the catch? Why is it that most people (well atleast the people I've talked to) dislike comp sci so much? Usually most of the answers I get from the people I've asked goes like "You're better off focusing on one specific field, nowadays a comp sci degree can't really get you that far" or " a CS degree is just not worth it anymore, nobody really cares about them"

[fathom flare]

How long would it take for something to be considered a normal concept? I mean to be fairrrr its going to take around maybe 5 years? for me to achieve these degrees in the first place, won't it be considered a normal concept by then?

[regal axle]

The problem is that yes, specialized degrees help you get specialized jobs. And that is true. But what if you want to do something different? Or slightly different. If you know you want to do the specialized job, get that degree. It is true that a CS degree is losing value as time goes on. But it isn't worthless.

The real question is what your motivation is. Are you trying to get a degree because it is marketable? Or are you trying to get a degree because it is the barrier to entry for your goal? Are you motivated by the work itself or the money associated with it? These questions will help guide you to the direction of what matters and what doesn't matter.

[summer roost]

Software Engineering degrees have existed for decades, and are still a new concept that are widely seen as less valuable than Computer Science degrees

[peak halo]

longer than you have time to wait for.

[fathom flare]

Yessss, the first part perfectly describes what's been going on through my head lately! I was heavily interested in CS at first because of how flexible it was. At first I wanted software engineer, but than it changed to game development, and eventually data science etc etc. For me the perfect job would have a mid - high pay salary, a good work environment, something that I'm interested in, but most importantly : low risk of getting replaced by AI, like seriously I genuinely believe AI is currently the biggest roadblock for me to get into IT / CS 😢 It's unbelievably nerve wrecking.

At the end I chose cyber because the risk of AI was somewhat low, the salary seems pretty good and I'm genuinely interested in the concept. Not to mention the demand for cybersecurity is pretty good. I really want to take comp sci but in the same time, how if I fail? Or how if it doesnt work out? I wouldnt know where else to go atp honestly. I feel like if I don't go all in on a specific field then theres no way for me to work it out

[fathom flare]

😭

[peak halo]

why are you sad?

[fathom flare]

choosing the right career has been kindaaaa nerve wrecking, i dont want to end up picking something, investing so much time on it and fail

[summer roost]

most importantly : low risk of getting replaced by AI, like seriously I genuinely believe AI is currently the biggest roadblock for me to get into IT / CS
I don't know any professional software engineers or ML engineers who seriously think that AI is going to be replacing any software engineers anytime soon. You're worrying about something unrealistic.

[fathom flare]

its just that AI has been getting pretty advanced lately, imagine what it could do in a few years from now. My biggest nightmare would be spending years studying for one thing only for it to become obsolete, what would i do at that point

[summer roost]

imagine what it could do in a few years from now
Likely not much more than it can do now, unless there's another massive technological leap

[fathom flare]

I truly truly hope so

[summer roost]

AI is clearly a very powerful tool, but it takes expertise to use it. It's obviously not going away, but it's not going to replace the experts any time soon, either. 10 years from now, I anticipate that most developers will be using AI to get their jobs done, but I don't think there's any chance that companies will be using AI instead of developers.

[tidal harbor]

I wonder if AGI would be a good thing or not. Hmm...

[regal axle]

Well, you still have many years at bare minimum to wonder. We are nowhere even close to AGI. Not "true AGI" not "fake AGI" none of it.

[tidal harbor]

I just hope we're able to solve the alignment problem!

[visual flax]

Is it normal to feel a bit sour that it took 7 years to finished an associates
I'll be about 6 years behind my peers in the workforce and thats assuming everything goes well.

[peak halo]

Comparison is the thief of happiness.

[visual flax]

I suppose

but eveeryone is elling me that my mind isn't cut out fo engineering and I dont have any proof that it is

[peak halo]

And they think they have proof that it isn't?

[summer roost]

Do you have any proof that it's better cut out for something else?

[visual flax]

no lol

[fringe sphinx]

A: I doubt it's 'everyone' and how do they know what you're good at anyway? B: engineering is filled of many personalities, there's no single 'type' just like there's no single job description.

[visual flax]

Its really my mind idk if it could hold the difficulty and mental demand of 10 hour days

[balmy spade]

That's why you take breaks, lunches, and are rarely working on the same challenge uninterrupted.

[fringe sphinx]

^. SWEing is probably not at all like you imagine it is.

[visual flax]

I'm an eletrical engineer

[fringe sphinx]

I found EE way harder. Switched to CS.

[visual flax]

Oh yea it is but its the one thing I'm good at and regardless of the odds I'm going to try to stick it out for another 3 years

[fringe sphinx]

If you're good at EE, how could someone tell you aren't cut out for engineering?

[visual flax]

Because Its taken me a looong time to finish this degree

[fringe sphinx]

I feel you. Do you know what percentage of people finish their degrees in 4 years?

[visual flax]

I've had a lot of health struggles so I wasn't really able to handle a full load. But this time around its looking like I can finally finish.

[fringe sphinx]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/college-students-dont-graduate-4-years-government-counts-6-years-succe-rcna2776

[visual flax]

33% according to google

[tidal harbor]

Sometimes I wonder what kind of project would impress a potential employer the most.

[hybrid oyster]

Same…

[tidal harbor]

What sort of thing would give me the best results for my time in this capacity?

Sometimes I wish I wasn't such a left brained individual.

[visual flax]

WQhen my sister was working for procenex

[fringe sphinx]

Tbh, nothing is impressive. What's important is what you get out of it.

[visual flax]

she made some basic python django websites, maybe do a similar thing?

[fringe sphinx]

genuine point: think breadth of skills, combined with good engineering practices. I rarely care too much about any single project an entry level candidate has on their resume. Their experience comes through on the rest of the interview

[tidal harbor]

That's a really good point. Thanks.

[visual flax]

am I significantly behing my peers if I'm graduating at 27 as supposed to 22?

[tidal harbor]

There are people I know that are graduating at 52.

I wouldn't really worry about what the rest of the world is doing. The only important thing is to keep improving.

[visual flax]

Yea thats probably true

[peak halo]

that phrase is usually "as opposed to". if someone says "x, as opposed to y", that doesn't necessarily mean they think y is preferable to x--it just means "x is true, and y is the thing that specifically isn't true"

I'm pointing this out because it sounds like you think 22 is the most ideal age to finish an undergraduate degree. and I suppose it's better to finish something sooner rather than later, but I wouldn't place much significance on it.

I was like 26 when I got my degree.

[summer roost]

Your peers are the people who enter the workforce at the same time as you

[visual flax]

thats true

[visual flax]

Those who entered before then are not my peers

[boreal osprey]

what are they then

[visual flax]

superiors

[fringe sphinx]

I think you're gatekeeping yourself. You'll find there's no "normal" or "typical" or "competition". It's just you and what you do.

[visual flax]

Curious billybobby would you say working professionally has matured you more than not working professionally?

[fringe sphinx]

I'm not sure I've matured. But I've gotten older.

[visual flax]

Lol thats certainly how I feel.

As you've gained more experience do you enjoy it as you did when you did school or?

[fringe sphinx]

No real change. I liked my job when I started. I like my job now. I like solving problems, and there's always a new problem to solve.

[visual flax]

Does it pay a lot?

[fringe sphinx]

SWEing is a well paid field, yes.

[visual flax]

so you got into software engineering as a cs?

[fringe sphinx]

Yes

Altho, I also didn't graduate in 4.

[visual flax]

Thats awesome man, I guess I need to just take life as it is. Even though I wanted to be married with kids. and mid way through my career life is still good and I'm having a bunch of fun.

plenty of people my age who are miserable with those things right?

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno, I never felt miserable. I don't really look in the rear-view mirror much. I'm very in-the-moment, so it's sometimes hard to relate.

[pine sleet]

you are worrying about other people too much imo

[visual flax]

probably thanks guys I don't want to turn this channel into something it isnt!

[fringe sphinx]

Best thing you can do is: pick a tutorial, start coding, and ask a lot of questions in #python-discussion . Just remember that: you don't really know it if you can't explain it.

[visual flax]

oh now I'm eletrical engineering I've done a lot of tutorials lol. I don't really know my coding level because I never practiced or learned data structures actively but I'm confident to say I'm stronger at coding than the average person.

[fringe sphinx]

Projects. Do lots of small projects.

Like sports, you don't get good unless you play.

!kin

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[old silo]

is it good resume for fresher , want to get into any of the field(Software dev, web development, python related field and devops), i am applying to jobs but getting rejected, any tips on how i can approve , i am still a undegrad, will graduate this year not very good with studies

[dark robin]

naukri.com, indeed

[dark robin]

for python i recently got to knwo. job hire

[old silo]

i am interested to check that out if you are comfortable sharing that with me

[dark robin]

must check out ! it's website

[old silo]

sure which one?

[dark robin]

it's a name ! you can search on any search engine "jobhire"

[modest kraken]

I feel like you should put the recipe sharer and moderation bot before the other projects

And also put your internships before certifications

[old silo]

tnx

[dark robin]

and skills 2nd last will be good

[old silo]

noted

[dark robin]

certifications should be in last imo

[modest kraken]

Yeah, because anyone can take a course and get a cert, but not everyone can get an internship

[dark robin]

agree

[fast fossil]

in fact, probably want an order like: edu, internships, projects, certs, skills
though typically certs are pretty useless anyway (the intro certs are definitely useless)

[modest kraken]

Do companies care if your internship was at like a startup or small business, or does it have to be a big company

[dark robin]

edu, internships, projects, skills*, certs or whatever ? no ?

[fast fossil]

I don't know, I would assume that a well-known company would at the very least stand out

[modest kraken]

So it’s a lot better to have an internship in a well known company

[fast fossil]

yeah, probably, if they want to leave the certs in at all

[fast fossil]

Again, I don't know, but I would assume so (though I would not include "a lot" in "a lot better" in this assumption)

[paper steppe]

Would someone mind writing a simple is python script for me?

[old silo]

wrong channel to ask , ask in #1035199133436354600 but there also i doubt anyone will try to write for you , they can guide you though

[paper steppe]

Thanks, don't know why I sent it in this channel.

[rocky jolt]

is learning through python projects recommended for beginners?

[drifting pawn]

yes

[spare reef]

Hey guys

[shrewd delta]

hello i have a python project has made where i have to reproduce the plan of my high school using python with turtle and i can't do it someone is available to help me get there it's very simple code and the plan is small

[regal axle]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[shrewd delta]

thanks

[vapid jay]

❄𝐈 𝐓𝐡𝐢𝐧𝐤 𝐌𝐲 𝐂𝐚𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐫 𝐢𝐬 𝐞𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐝 𝐛𝐞𝐟𝐨𝐫𝐞 𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐧 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐫𝐭𝐞𝐝.ΨΡνλζ

[fringe sphinx]

?

[vapid jay]

𝐃𝐨 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐫 𝐢𝐧𝐯𝐞𝐬𝐭 𝐢𝐧 𝐩𝐫𝐨 𝐯𝐞𝐫𝐬𝐢𝐨𝐧 𝐨𝐟 𝐠𝐩𝐭

[fringe sphinx]

This is #career-advice . Do you want to talk about your career?

[vapid jay]

𝐘𝐞𝐚𝐡

[fringe sphinx]

!ot otherwise plz

!topic

[inner wren]

Off-topic channels

There are three off-topic channels:

• #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval
• #ot1-perplexing-regexing
• #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

The channel names change every night at midnight UTC and are often fun meta references to jokes or conversations that happened on the server.

See our off-topic etiquette page for more guidance on how the channels should be used.

[vapid jay]

𝐈 𝐰𝐚𝐧𝐭 𝐭𝐨 𝐤𝐧𝐨𝐰 à𝐛𝐨𝐮𝐭 𝐜à𝐫𝐞𝐞𝐫 𝐨𝐩𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧 𝐢𝐧 2025

𝐈𝐧 𝐜𝐨𝐝𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐟𝐢𝐞𝐥𝐝
𝐁𝐮𝐭 𝐚𝐥𝐬𝐨 𝐢 𝐡𝐚𝐯𝐞 𝐮𝐬𝐞𝐝 𝐠𝐩𝐭 𝐩𝐫𝐨 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐆𝐩𝐭 𝐬𝐨 𝐠𝐨𝐚𝐭𝐞𝐝 𝐢𝐧 𝐝𝐨𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐜𝐨𝐝𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐬𝐭𝐮𝐟𝐟

[fringe sphinx]

What are you asking?

[vapid jay]

𝐒𝐨 𝐢𝐬 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐞 𝐚𝐧𝐲 𝐬𝐜𝐨𝐩𝐞 𝐨𝐟 𝐜𝐨𝐝𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐢𝐧 2025

[peak halo]

what is "scope of coding"?

[spice willow]

One of the unis I'm applying to has a comprehensive (general) track, and some more specialized tracks on specific fields

[vapid jay]

𝐃𝐨 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐮𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐫𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐞𝐧𝐠𝐥𝐢𝐬𝐡

[spice willow]

Is there a big loss in career prospects if I go for the comprehensive one?

Or do most cms majors have general degrees?

[vapid jay]

𝐒𝐨 𝐢 𝐚𝐦 𝐚𝐬𝐤𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐬𝐜𝐨𝐩𝐞 𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞 𝐡𝐨𝐰 𝐦𝐚𝐧𝐲 𝐜𝐚𝐫𝐞𝐞𝐫 𝐨𝐩𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧𝐬 𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐞 𝐢𝐧 𝐟𝐢𝐞𝐥𝐝 𝐨𝐟 𝐜𝐨𝐝𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐢𝐧 2025

[peak halo]

@vapid jay please stop using that character set to communicate in this server. If there is a reason why you cannot, please tell us by sending a DM to @severe widget. This is your only warning.

[fringe sphinx]

"CMS" you mean Computer Science?

[spice willow]

yeah we call it cms here

[fringe sphinx]

What country is here?

[spice willow]

bangladesh

[fringe sphinx]

In US, most SWE's have CS or similar degrees. But, there are also a fair number of people with other STEM degrees.

[spice willow]

but im applying to the us, which im assuming most people here are from

[peak halo]

this server is spread out between north america, europe, and south asia.

[spice willow]

so what youre saying is that most SWEs dont have a degree thats specifically SWE, but rather general CS?

[true harness]

in the US, "SWE" and "CS" degrees are pretty much the same

[spice willow]

alright good to know

thanks guys

[gritty rivet]

Impossible and pointless to quantify. Looking at job listings in your local area should give you a concrete sense of the range and numbers of jobs that involve a given language or technology. For Python specifically expect to see lots of SWE, data engineering, data analysis, backend web, etc. all of which can overlap.

[atomic sparrow]

how can i download udemy courses for sso account for free. Does any one have any idea

[fast fossil]

For free? There are free resources all over the internet that you are free to acquire (legally and ethically) without having to do some sketchy stuff. Besides why pay for udemy anyway?

[summer roost]

very few universities in the US offer a degree called "Software Engineering", but a few do. Many more software engineers have a Computer Science degree than a Software Engineering degree.

[jagged talon]

I have seen Computer Science with specialization in software engineering at a few place I think. I am not quite sure what classes make or break these degrees

[fiery python]

TLDR: I want to get into scientific computing, but my current major is in software engineering + IT. There's a math major that has a focus in Data Science and AI. Should I switch?

Hello! I need some career advice. I'm thinking of having a career in scientific computing or mathematical modeling, which I considered after my calc 3 class which I loved. Unfortunately, my CS major (which is more of a Software Engineering + IT major) does not cover that.

There is a "math major" that isn't a typical math major. Its called "B.S. in Data Science and Mathematical Engineering", which is applied math mostly to data science and AI with some Cryptography.

The major is still a bit experimental and isn't that focused on scientific computing, but I think it could keep me close enough with math that I have a fresh memory of math for a master's. But here's what I need help with: would it be better to stay in the "CS" major I'm at, learn on my own the necessary math for a master's, or switching majors and then a master's (I'm aware it's possible that I still may need to self-learn some math, but I have a feeling it'll be less arduous than if I stayed in my current major)?

[fringe sphinx]

Both sound like great options

[vernal lake]

I have a question related to a career in Python.

I have almost 20 years of experience in web development. I have a partial degree in Computer Science(minor in mathematics) in which I took classes in Java(2), Python and C++. My primary language is PHP and I consider myself a senior level full stack developer on the LAMP stack using the Laravel framework, JavaScript and MySQL or PostgreSQL.

My question is this: giving my current experience can anyone advice me on how to break into a career in Python?

[buoyant seal]

Sounds to me like you have qualifications of a PHP backend developer as 100% match.
And you are already dynamic typed dev.

Just learn python in terms of syntax, best practices and sprinkle with modern containerization.
Build quality projects using common python web frameworks (Flask, Django, Django Ninja, Django rest framework, Fast API), and do it in quality with pytest (and some times even with typing enforced by mypy/pyright and using data structs of Pydantic at least for Django Ninja and Fast API)

Book python in simple packages can be first get familiar with syntax
Book: python refactoring legacy code by Mariano Anya can be for extending knowledge.
Book: python expert programming 4+ edition by Jaworski can be read to learn obscure python topics

Book Docker deep dive can be learned for proper modern tool for dev env usage

If u lack knowledge about unit testing, books:
Tdd by Kent beck
Unit testing best practices by Khorikov
Can help fixing issue

Google, python awesome libraries, get familiar with ecosystem of python libs
Try working at minimum with Celery

[vernal lake]

Thanks for the feedback.

[atomic sparrow]

I own those courses that i purchased I just want it to be present offline as well is there any whey

[proven valley]

I want to get into a career in data science and is there any advice to get my first work experience

[fringe sphinx]

Do you have a degree? Any experience? etc?

[proven valley]

No experience and currently in 2nd year of my computer science and mathematics degree

[fringe sphinx]

Planning on grad school, or just looking to get into data right out of Uni?

[proven valley]

Plan to get at least a placement year or summer internship

[fringe sphinx]

I ask because: Data Science is a broad field, and on one end, you have the "science" side of it which tends to have graduate degrees and a deeper theoretical understanding. On the other end, you have the ai/ml engineering side, which is more SWE oriented and practical. I'd include data engineering skills on that side.

[proven valley]

Well l have an interest in using AI in python to help predict or analysis data

[fringe sphinx]

There's a lot of starting points. Python data skills (numpy, pandas, sklearn / linear regression) are probably necessary foundational skills. There's also courses like: CS50 for AI to get your started on the concepts, but there's a lot to learn, so it helps to narrow your interests to something specific. PyTorch has a good intro tutorial too.

[proven valley]

Should I start projects using PyTorch, numpy and sklearn before I start to apply for work experience

[fringe sphinx]

Why not both?

What's the worst that happens if you apply? They don't accept you.

[proven valley]

Okay thank you for the help

[fiery python]

What do you mean with "the science side of it"?

[white relic]

Hi, please note this server doesn't allow recruitment, soliciting work or other advertisements.
You are welcome to participate in all of the active discussions happening in the various topic channels.

[rare dock]

Thx

[fringe sphinx]

Data science has a lot of theory and concepts behind it, separate from the ml engineering part of implementing it, which is separate from the data engineering part of preparing the data

[wooden hornet]

where is general chat so i can ask questions

[analog sun]

#python-discussion or #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[wooden hornet]

cuz i may have some problems in the future so i know where to ask

[fiery python]

I see. Where can I look for more information about that? To not ask you everything, that is

[fringe sphinx]

#data-science-and-ml is the main
channel

[fiery python]

Noted. Thanks :3

[verbal geyser]

is https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/credentials/certifications/data-analyst-associate/?practice-assessment-type=certification this useful to have on a cv? how is it looked upon when it comes to BI?

[gritty rivet]

Are you applying to job openings that ask for it? If yes, then absolutely. If no, maybe. I would look on LinkedIn to see if people doing relevant work in your local area are listing it on their profiles.

In general, Microsoft certs are among the respectable ones, but I'm not sure about this one in particular.

[stone coyote]

Sorry yall but I have a question, Im 13 and Im really interested in programming, Is python the best programming lanuage to start with?

[pine sleet]

yes

[stone coyote]

Okay ty

[verbal geyser]

I see, thanks

[buoyant seal]

Sort of. It is beginner friendly and multi purpose one, so it is technically good pick
Works great enough for Scripting, Web development, tool for math scientists, glue to smash things together in server infra or somewhere else

But.. it is language easy to get lost in, it is hard to write complex stuff in it / if u deal with very complex structured data like a lot of game entities then u will suffer in python
Also not very suiting to make Desktop or Mobile apps
Also it is very slow language

Try eventually Golang, C# or Java. Those are high level languages with different vibe in them. Complex things with large amount of code are easier in them.
Plus they all make Desktop app development very easy (C# has even drag and drop GUI to generate them)

[knotty ermine]

i want to learn python but i didn t know where to start

[buoyant seal]

This is very brain 🧠 friendly

[knotty ermine]

where can i get this book

[boreal osprey]

!res

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[autumn vapor]

hello everyone, I'm interested in learning a coding language do yall think Python's a good start?

[pine sleet]

yes

[tawdry marsh]

hey guys I have a homework for python can someone dm me and help me figure out my code, I dont really understand

[pine sleet]

#1035199133436354600

[dense oak]

If I want to become a game dev is it better to start learning python or C++ or any other language

[summer roost]

if you haven't learned any programming languages yet, start with Python. You'll probably need to learn other languages eventually, but Python is a much easier language to learn the basics with than C++

[buoyant seal]

or with C#. game dev usable language, and in comparison to C++, it is very enjoyable language to use 😄 at each step not shot gunning your legs off with memory wrong pointer usage.
C# and its unity has problematic licensing problems to day though.

Best to check which are languages game dev popular locally in your local hiring market just in case

[summer roost]

if you're at the point of learning your first programming language, it's premature to worry about the hiring market. C# is definitely an easier first language than C++, but still a harder first language than Python

[analog steppe]

C++ from the start could be frustrating, you might want to get the basic understanding of variables, OOPs concept etc first, to start learning lower-level or complex programing languages.
Python can help you with that for sure, and I believe python is the easiest way to enter the programming world for any non-coding background guy.
But you can also explore other languages to start with i.e. dart(have very common syntax to other languages, very easy to learn or get started with and can help you learn the very basics, but might be useless in your case), C#(not too easy, but a lot better option to learn as a first language, and it can help in professional game development too).

[nova sedge]

Do you have any order of languages you recommend for an aspiring AI Architect? I'm trying to pivot from cloud engineering & Terraform

[summer roost]

I've never even heard of an "AI Architect", to be honest. I'm probably not the right person to ask

[nova sedge]

Gotcha. I picked Python because one of the engineers I used to work with started developing GenAI chat bots, and he was all about Pandas

[harsh river]

can you define what an "AI Architech" is?

[nova sedge]

It's an emerging field that combines skills from IT infrastructure, data engineering, and software development

I have 1 of those 3 skillets lol. Basically taking a shot in the dark with Python and SQL to start, but I've also heard I should learn GoLang and R

[harsh river]

that sounds closer to: https://aws.amazon.com/what-is/sre/
except specifically applied to AI fields.

[past heath]

I don't like solving problems and I also don't have out of box solutions for the problems, most times I just hate things when there comes bugs, I also don't have any critical thinking, then does this makes me a bad developer?

[buoyant seal]

I don't like solving problems
i don't like solving Leetcoding problems too. I see a nice challenge in anything else. In building real world useful projects
I also don't have out of box solutions for the problems,
research is usually bigger part than writing code at least for me.
most times I just hate things when there comes bugs
i am perfectionist that is not liking to see bugs in his code too. That's why i am zealot in

• Unit testing
• Static typing
• Structured logging
• Using intensively Git
• And properly documenting his code if necessary with tools like Sphinx if in python
• and enjoys development with visual debug from within unit tests in general.
• and likes to setup Staging duplicate of infrastructure, to test things before they go to Production
• and liking to see CI like github actions verying by tests lack of backs on every commit on its own
• designing my code to be not using fragile/bad untyped stuff as much as possible (avoiding to use Vanilla/Jquery JS manipulations to DOM)
  All those things help to eliminate bugs way easier, and not finding them in production later. Or at least easier fixing them later... they are still plentifully present after that anyway... All those measures aren't enough to prevent their appearances completely, but they help to eliminate large bulk and fixing very rapidly remaining

I also don't have any critical thinking,
clarify what u assume under it.

[vapid jay]

is there a way to make a career out of just python and its frameworks for backend dev. cause i hate js/react, and dont really want to spend time learning a stack, but wondering if employers will just prefer people who can do both front+back end

[summer roost]

You can absolutely make a career on the backend, there's more backend jobs than frontend by far. You will probably have to learn languages other than Python, though. Expect to need to know something like Java, C#, C++, Rust, Go, etc. There's a lot more interesting stuff written in C than in Python

That's not to say there aren't any jobs out there that are 100% Python, just to say that you'll have a lot more opportunities available if you broaden your horizons

[buoyant seal]

I hate Js/react/nodejs world too 🙂

Specialized in Backend development and DevOps engineering instead.

I still can do some js because every web dev has to at bare minimum 😐 fully to escape js is impossible in web world, but possible to minimize to bare minimum (htmx helped in doing backend friendly approach to this problem) (and in general just working with APIs, and delegating frontend problems to frontend devs)

[past heath]

What I mean as critical thinking in context to programming is that when there I find solution somehow to the problem I don't see the ways the solution going to break the other things or is the most optimal one without disrupting any other flow of code. I just fill the gap and think it is done. I don't analyze it.

[dense ibex]

Anyone know where to go for good resume advice?

[near ocean]

The channel titled #career-advice seems like it would fit

[grave venture]

has any one conducted an OA in testgorilla for SWE position for 1h:30 ??? how was it ? I know testgorilla has some of the worst irrelevant OA , but is there any resources that can help me be prepared for the test and what to expect ? thanks

[thorn yacht]

@tall galleon

[tall galleon]

Hi, I want to leave my current job because the tasks are to repetitive. I got approached by a recruiting company that wants to recruit me of another company. I have heard relatively bad things from companies such as this. They use you as much as possible and I feel they are playing a game and I am piece in a bigger puzzle. I have been fired before because of lack of knowledge therefore I would like to hear who have worked with recruiting companies. Did you get used, did you feel secure, were people toxic, made they make you do things that is seen immoral? Would you reccomend it to me or not? you need more details from me about earlier work experience? I am considered smart but that is not correlated with success in the workforce. Also the world is in bad economical times. I got fired because I slept 4 hours each night and I was burned out from my bachelor degree. I also wanted to work 100% and pursue a master 100%. I am not perfect in the story but which human is? At current moment I have fixed my sleeping habit made produced good results for my company. I am able to work 8 hours but I need a team that is pushing me. Just ask if you need more information.

[spice cradle]

where would you look for these jobs tho?

[fringe sphinx]

There are many types of recruiting companies. There are certainly non-legit recruiting firms and watch out if they ask you for: money, bank account, any personal information beyond what's on your resume. I've worked for years with legit ones: many companies will use third party recruiters to find and preliminarily screen candidates. The recruiters get paid from the company after successfully placing a candidate.

[fringe sphinx]

In terms of your other issues: neither the recruiter nor the company interviewing you wants to hear about your problems. They just want to know: what you know, what you have experience doing, and are you a stable person who wouldn't be annoying to work with.

[tall galleon]

you are referencing my problems, what are they? my past?

[fringe sphinx]

Your message above had a lot of negative points about being fired, not getting enough sleep, being burned out, needing a team to push you, etc. I'm just saying - dont bring any of this up in any interview or recruiter discussion. Focus on your positives, your strengths, your abilities, etc.

[tall galleon]

one of my positive traits is that if a team is pushing me then I hav the ability to produce good results.

[tall galleon]

they will ask me, what happeend with the first job. Should I not be honest?

[fringe sphinx]

You can deflect. You don't have to say you were fired nor the reason.

[tall galleon]

do they check your references?

[fringe sphinx]

Are you in US?

[tall galleon]

I am Norwegian

[fringe sphinx]

I don't know your country then. In US, they can check employment history, but companies don't disclose if you were fired. They just disclose: dates of employment

You can also choose to give character references, but doesn't need to be your prior employer

[tall galleon]

yea because I find it weird to ask my current emplyer and say "I would like to leave but I need you as a reference"

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I think that's a normal feeling.

[tall galleon]

So i am not going ask him

I think the recruitmet team will fix, I have told them that I need mentor to grow and I believe I will contribute handsomely

[fringe sphinx]

I'd suggest: focus on how you can take initiative, rather than **external **factors like a mentor or team pressure.

I understand what you mean.. just don't say stuff like that in an interview.

[tall galleon]

Ok I will use my sales skills to pitch them how I am a great fit.

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, just convey: I'm motivated. I love to work on tough problems... even if they're small bugs. I'm always learning. etc

(prime rule of interviews: Never say anything negative about a past employer)

[tall galleon]

I will not, but I will say that the current job repetitive

[fringe sphinx]

Instead of saying job is repetitive, you could say: "I'm not growing or challenged in my current job"

[tall galleon]

I fix dont worry 😉

but thank you for taking time to answer my question

[worldly stirrup]

What career should i do

[peak halo]

There are people in this channel who are willing to help you, but low effort questions such as this can only get low effort answers. Tell people about your interests and what education/training opportunities are available to you.

[worldly stirrup]

i like machine learning and i like python

[peak halo]

ML is one of the most degree-requiring careers. are you willing to get a bachelors and probably also a masters?

[worldly stirrup]

right now i do bachelor in computer science, can i get job with that or do i need phd

[peak halo]

you can get a job in ML with only a bachelors if you do everything you possibly can to gain ML experience during that degree

[worldly stirrup]

what kind of experience

[deft herald]

ML experience. Take electives related to ML, do ML projects, etc

[peak halo]

take all the ML electives you can. see if there's a professor who is willing to do research with you.

[lilac sundial]

Do i need to go deep into programming competitions if i want a good swe job

Or is leetcode+exp good nuff

[gritty rivet]

I don't think I know any SWEs who have ever done a coding competition. But you should look for local advice, specifically from people working at the companies you would want to work at

[near ocean]

It might help with passing the tech interview but thats about it

[lilac sundial]

Oh so its just for flexing or prize money that sorta thing(partly)

[vapid violet]

They can still give you practice and are fun.

[fringe sphinx]

I'm a fan of variety. Do many different things to "get good". Too much of one thing makes you imbalanced. But, that's OK too... sometimes you have people who love one very specific thing.

[peak halo]

I don't know anyone with that title, but I can't imagine that it means something other than "software architect where some of the components are AI"

[summer roost]

Possibly, though "Software Architect" and "Software Engineer" are very different jobs, so I wouldn't be too sure...

Wait, I misread what you wrote. Nevermind me.

Yeah, what you say matches what I'd guess.

[true harness]

no

[open ivy]

I was told that LinkedIn meetups tend to be better than Meetup for networking (i.e. for building relationships with people in programming).

Anyone have experience of LinkedIn groups which either have online VC meetups or are in person? I was thinking of trying it.

[neon gulch]

Hi

[wispy cave]

Anyone have any advice on what to do post graduation? I graduate in June and don't know whaat to do, i feel really lost

[true harness]

get a job

[wispy cave]

easier said than done :)

[true harness]

well, what else would you do

[wispy cave]

Let me rephrase my question: any advice on getting a job?

[nova finch]

What kind of job?

[wispy cave]

Anything in the field of software engineering / development or data science

[near ocean]

1. Write a CV
2. Look up ads on linkedin/indeed/whatever board you like
3. Apply
4. Report back when youre 100 applications in and you got no callbacks

[wispy cave]

at 387 rn 🥲

[near ocean]

Do you get calls back? Are you failing interviews? What is your sticking point

[wispy cave]

For most of them, I either get rejected immediately or get sent a coding test and then ghosted / rejected. For the few interviews I've had, I didn't pass the personality interview because I was very nervous as I don't get interviews very often

[open ivy]

This doesn't sound like very much human interaction. These days, we need more human interaction not less.

Is there a way to make this process more social?

[fringe sphinx]

The game is the game.

[true harness]

you could send your resume here for a review. for interviews, you should try to do mock interviews with your friends. the more practice you have, the less nervous you'll be

[open ivy]

Are you saying "If you can't beat em, join em"? If the company is using AI to automate job applications, why can't we? There are usually several startups giving out free AI API tokens at a loss at any given time.

[true harness]

what are you even talking about

[open ivy]

I feel it's unfair that we put all this work into our applications only to have some mindless AI screen it. Why do they get the AI and we don't?

[fringe sphinx]

What does fairness have to do with anything?

You can not play the game, and ensure a 0% chance of acceptance. Or send your resume and have a non 0%.

[open ivy]

Or I can turn the tables with AI.

Rich VCs with money to burn buying into AI hype and funding startups? And the AI startups giving out free API tokens at a loss? Sign me up!

Just pipe the job application into the AI, with several template resumes, and ask it to personalize the resume and cover letter. Modern AI is good enough to do most CAPTCHAs as well.

If I play the game, no one said I cannot cheat...

[fringe sphinx]

? Use whatever tools you want to customize your resume, but you still need to backup what you say. And AI generated resumes read terribly.

[near ocean]

Recent grads with no experience to show for cant rely on their network (they have no network)

[open ivy]

I would only try some sort of AI job search startup (in the VC burning phase, and AI may or may not include humans) when I get to 100 or so applications for my next wave. Below 100 manual work is not that big a deal.

Remember that we don't automate everything! Only automate things when they get beyond a certain time or energy cost. But enough people here seem to be sending out 300+ resumes that automation makes a lot of sense here. I could write selenium scripts and have a dozen versions of the resume, with some simple keyword synonyms to select. But why reinvent the wheel? Does anyone out there use a tool (perhaps built on-top of selenium) to take most of the drudgery out.

[fringe sphinx]

Interestingly, most new grads I get from referrals (friends and family)

[near ocean]

who do you work for though
is it random tech company or is it one of those that people "dream" of getting into

i imagine the only way to get ahead in the second type is via referral, too many apply the traditional way

anyway, the social way takes too long, bills dont wait for you to rub elbows with the right people

[open ivy]

For starters, weekly meetups (go for a mix of online VC and in-person). Meetup.com has meetups (of course) but LinkedIn I also heard is great.

Build relationships. That means familiar faces. Unemployed people and employed people both. Anyone who loves tech and some non-tech geeks for balance!

Also maintain any college friendships you have.

If you have to take an hour bus ride, do it. Remember that college hands social life on a silver platter, being at a campus full of people your age. It is not easy to force yourself up at 7am on a weekend and meet with people of very different ages. But networking is very important.

[near ocean]

that sure is an optimistic take on finding your first job

the person asking for advice graduated 6 months ago and theyre 350+ apps into their job hunt
they likely cant attend college events
they also likely dont have the time, money or energy, real life doesnt wait for you to find a job

[open ivy]

If "hundreds of applications" is the way to go than automating the routine parts (such as name, address, college etc) would given them more time and energy to focus on the non-routine parts (personalization, etc). They would probably do a better job and enjoy the process more.

Or is their strategy wrong if it is failing after 350+ applications? How should they up the quality of the applications?

[open ivy]

I think it is also a pessimistic take on my part. I am pessimistic about spending too much time and energy sending out cold applications. Networking is not a magic bullet and it must be done correctly (as in building real relationships and putting your best foot forward interest and skill wise with personal projects or other work). But there are many reasons to not like cold applications.

However, my pessimism may be unwarranted. If you think there is an efficient way to do so, whether it be automation, clever tailoring tricks, or even just an off-the-beaten path job board then that may be a good strat.

[near ocean]

it could be a number of things, it could be their cv is shit
it could be theyre applying with easy apply
they could be hyper specific about what kind of job they want
they just might not be good enough 🤷‍♀️ you never know until they show you

maybe the 350 apps were to nvidia ads, theyre not getting in

there's no "efficient" way to find your first job
there's a "pick your poison" way

[open ivy]

One of the many reasons I like networking is because you get feedback. You can read the tone of voice, body language etc to gauge the social interaction.

Sure, it's far from perfect and has pitfalls. But it is better than no feedback at all.

[near ocean]

networking is slow though, thats literally the only downside
you cant afford to take it slow as a fresh graduate

people take years upon years building their network

[open ivy]

Maybe they should do both.

It's not like networking interferes with cold applications. There is only so much time spent on cold applications a human can tolerate, we need to do something else to not go crazy.

And if it takes 1000+ applications to get a job, that is also pretty slow. Unless it is 80% automated with Selenium etc.

[near ocean]

it takes time to apply to job ads, you should do so at the company portal and they all look and behave differently, it'd be a pain to automate it

inb4 workday app

[open ivy]

Yes, it's only worth it to automate it at large numbers of applications. I think I could make a semi-automated tool in a few dozen hours of work which automatically looks for forms to fill with Selenium. For example, there are only so many permutations on the "education" section. I would probably want to watch it, or look over it in the final application etc.

At least the work making the automation system is not a waste as it builds technical skills and teaches us how to make and debug "real" project that goes beyond a homework assignment.

[fringe sphinx]

Some random tech company, for sure. But, that was also true when I was in big tech. I remember (one time) posting two job openings... the recruiter got thousands of hits... and I only interviewed from the pile that was directly dropped on my desk by other managers. At other times at random tech, we used third party recruiters and everything was through these recruiters (cold applications, not network based). This is purely to share some anecdotes: that the job market is complicated. I'm not saying don't apply cold or don't network, I'm saying what I always say: do all of the above (apply cold, network, work your friends/family connections, etc).

[summer roost]

I wonder what percentage of software engineers work for "big" tech companies (ones with over 1000 engineers, let's say) versus smaller companies

it's not really easy to guesstimate - there aren't a lot more small companies than big ones, but the big companies each hire a very large number of people

my gut feeling is that it's probably somewhere around 50%, but that's entirely a hunch...

I guess I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be anywhere from 30% to 70%

[fringe sphinx]

This page suggests the breakdown is: 35% < 1k, 30% 1-10k, 37% 10k+. https://www.zippia.com/software-engineer-jobs/demographics . No idea of accuracy tho. And I think this is by number of employees, not SWEs

[open ivy]

Remember that even 1000 engineers is small compared to the giants.

We need more words than "small" and "big" to describe this.

[fringe sphinx]

https://blog.myli.page/how-many-software-developers-work-in-non-tech-companies-20ca9df01223 This is also an interesting stat: https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:1100/format:webp/1*bodGR2B8W7O_rVZRSQ-HwQ.png , roughly (very approxiamtely) that half of SWEs work for "non-tech" industries.

[open ivy]

What makes a company a "tech" company exactly?

[fringe sphinx]

Read the blog, they explain their methodology. It's certainly arguable, which is why they quoted it.

[open ivy]

It seems to define tech as software, cloud, manufacturing of electronics (but not chips), etc. Which is reasonable. Not sure if it includes biotech i.e. drug development.

So the rule of thumb that half of jobs are outside of tech stands. Honestly I probably would be happier with a software job outside of tech, if given a choice. And indeed there are quite a few.

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, the two main takeaways: There's many jobs outside "tech". And, there's many jobs that aren't for "big corps".

[drifting pawn]

how do people normally format their coursework on their resumes? my coursework section looks like this right now

it feels a bit long and I'm not sure if people get a good overview of my courses from this

[fringe sphinx]

tbh, I never read or care about that stuff. You're a CS major, we know you took discrete/etc. However, you have a lot of math there, and maybe emphasizing that would be helpful.

CS+Math dbl major?

Or is that a DS program?

[drifting pawn]

ehh not really I'm a liberal arts student and haven't declared a major yet but yeah, trying to posistion myself to jobs that'd hire cs and math double majors

would it be worth including physics and other engineering coursework? or other stem coursework in general lol

[fringe sphinx]

A liberal arts major who is taking abstract algebra? That sounds like denial to me 😂

(I'm saying thats a good thing)

[drifting pawn]

💀 thanks lol. so what I'm hearing is remove courses like discrete math, what else can I remove?

[fringe sphinx]

I have no idea, I guess we'd need to see rest of resume. Normally I ignore coursework when it's obvious from the major

In your case, I really don't know.

If your major is not clear, then maybe listing two bullets, one with CS and one with Math. I'm just thinking out loud.

[drifting pawn]

I've been putting cs and math as my major when applying, so in hindsight it's pretty much that LOL

[fringe sphinx]

I wouldn't waste space on the words "Relevant Coursework", if it's right after the degree

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, then shrug, perhaps a rule of thumb would be: skip stuff that's freshman/sophomore level (like discrete)

[drifting pawn]

let me anonymize my resume and send the full thing over

[fringe sphinx]

I glanced quickly. I don't really think you need the relevant coursework... or if so, emphasize the math work. "Computer Science and Mathematics": skimming quickly, I might not notice Mathematics.

And, at first glance, this looks pretty good... but could benefit from the extra whitespace from removing courseowkr.

[drifting pawn]

👍

[summer roost]

is mathematics really a Bachelor of Science, not a Bachelor of Arts? It's usually Arts - and if so, what you've got here is misleading

[drifting pawn]

school gives it as a bachelor of science I believe

weird private school

[summer roost]

interesting. ok, fair enough

FWIW, if it was Arts, I'd probably just split it onto two lines, one for CS and one for Math

I also wouldn't list a date in the future as the end date for the degree, I'd say "Anticipated graduation May 2027" or something like that

I agree that your list of courses is too long, but there's some interesting ones in here that might be worth highlighting. I'd basically suggest highlighting optional courses and electives

by the time you're further into the degree you can usually convey that by saying "concentration in machine learning and operating systems", or something like that, though admittedly it's harder to word when you've got fewer courses under your belt

[drifting pawn]

do you think it's worth including

Practices and Principles of Computer Science (TA FA24)

it's an intro-ish level course but I'm only including it because I TAed for it last semester

[summer roost]

I'll be honest, I completely didn't understand that's what "TA FA24" meant. I thought that was a course ID or something

I'd do those entirely differently: I'd add a section under experience for being a TA/grader, and list the courses you taught/graded for there

that's work experience, not education; you've got it in the wrong section

[drifting pawn]

😭

[summer roost]

if it helps, you definitely don't have to list a course in your education section if you list that you TA'd or graded for it in your work experience section. It's definitely implied that you know the material at that point (it's significantly more valuable than just knowing that you took the course)

[drifting pawn]

hmm, to do that I had to kick another swe internship off the list, but that's from a couple years ago

does this look better?

[summer roost]

I like it better, yeah. I'd drop "Abstract Algebra: Groups and Rings" from "selected coursework", since you list that you TA'd for it in "Experience", and that should be enough to get the selected coursework down to 1 line, freeing you up room for another bullet elsewhere if you want

[drifting pawn]

thanks 🙏

[upbeat galleon]

hello all, I am relatively new to coding/programming (starting learning last year), and I am self taught mixed with some tools like Mimo and boot.dev. Are the professional certs from Mimo worth anything at all? Also, why is it impossible to find a entry level position or internship unless I have a bachelors (at minimum)?

[summer roost]

Are the professional certs from Mimo worth anything at all?
I have never heard of Mimo before today. In general, certs are not worth very much for programmers, with the possible exceptions of some of the certs for cloud stacks (AWS, Azure, GCP)

why is it impossible to find a entry level position or internship unless I have a bachelors (at minimum)?
Internships are for students; you shouldn't expect to find an internship if you aren't a student. Most entry-level jobs ask for a bachelor's degree because people with degrees are more likely to have the relevant skills than people without, and they have enough applicants with degrees that they don't feel a need to broaden their hiring pool.

[upbeat galleon]

So what is a self-taught programmer supposed to do exactly? Go back to school and get a bachelors to be considered relevent?

[summer roost]

I'd say that depends a lot on your current amount of work experience and your current education level. If someone is currently working in QA or IT or has a bachelor's degree in Physics, they have a much easier path to getting a job as a developer than someone who's currently working at Burger King or someone who dropped out of high school. What's your situation?

[upbeat galleon]

Army Veteran with an ITSA from MyComputerCareer, Python AI Development cert from Mimo, working on their Full Stack corriculum currently

[summer roost]

did your role in the army involve any technology training that would be relevant to the workforce?

[peak halo]

Hopefully you didn't pay for these certs?
I've never heard of Mimo. I work in the AI division for my company. If you don't have a degree, they just delete your application.

[upbeat galleon]

Not too certain. I worked on the PATRIOT System (14E MOS). Dealt with a variety of things 😅

[upbeat galleon]

completely free but took me like 4 months to get through the certification I do have

[summer roost]

I don't know too much about the army, but I do know that there are some unique job opportunities specifically available to vets, and some unique training opportunities designed for helping you jump into civilian life

[fringe sphinx]

I was commo, but managed to get out with a degree, and followed with a graduate degree.

[summer roost]

if you're still young and can afford it, going back to school could be a very good idea, even if only for a 2 year associate's degree. If you can't afford to take on the debt or the workload, and need to commit to being self taught... things get trickier. Your competition for entry level roles will be people who have spent 4 years in university studying the theory of computation and data structures and algorithms. There are lots of successful self-taught devs, but you'll have a much harder time getting your foot in the door than a mediocre college grad would.

[fringe sphinx]

I imagine you'd have a good shot at a good QA or IT role and use that as a stepping stone... landing a programming job may be too much of a step right away, then leverage GI bill to make progress towards a degree

[upbeat galleon]

34 yrs old...close to being almost 20 years since I have seen a classroom

[upbeat galleon]

do employers even look at your github to see the projects you have completed?

[fringe sphinx]

Other thing too is product management roles... a good role for people with a varied background (I wouldn't suggest for a younger person, but what's you get out as? E6?)

[summer roost]

fair enough. That definitely makes the going back to school idea less appealing. Not least because college degrees have the biggest impact on your lifetime earnings if you get 'em while you're younger. You're certainly not old, but that's 15 years less value out of the degree than someone who went to college right out of high school would have

[summer roost]

maybe, a bit. They'll look at your resume first. They're unlikely to follow up by looking at your github unless your resume makes them want to learn more about you, either because of a particularly interesting project listed on your resume, or possibly because you have non-traditional experience and they're trying to see what your work looks like. If your resume doesn't grab them, they will certainly never see your github profile.

[upbeat galleon]

So what kind of IT or QA should I apply for? I was a mechanic after the Army but I turned to this because I have had 2 back surgeries now

[fringe sphinx]

E6 right? You can also leverage the leadership experience.

[upbeat galleon]

got out as an e-3 from medical

[fringe sphinx]

I'd apply to a variety of roles that are local and convenient. Even product management jobs too, where tech & organizational & leadership experience is valued.

[summer roost]

I second that idea. I've seen a lot of people transition from software-adjacent jobs into software engineering jobs. I'll throw data analysis into the pool of possible jobs, too

there are a lot of types of jobs where knowing a little bit about programming lets you automate a lot of stuff, and being the person on your team who automates a bunch of stuff can easily let you build up enough experience to transition into something where coding is the main job

[upbeat galleon]

so a data analysis, QA or IT type of position will get me a foot in the door essentially?

[summer roost]

I will say, the certs themselves aren't valuable per se, but they do show that you're taking re-training in new skills seriously, and that has value

[summer roost]

yeah, it definitely can

[upbeat galleon]

now I just need to figure out if my resume is too bland or attention grabbing

Thank you all so much for the advice, I will pursue this while I continue learning different languages and IDEs and such

[summer roost]

as far as programming jobs go, full stack web dev jobs are probably the easiest ones to break into. They have a relatively low barrier to entry, and are less likely to require degrees compared to things like AI or backend dev or game development, etc.

so, continuing to invest effort in that full stack course seems like a good idea to me, too

[upbeat galleon]

ngl, I have hated learning CSS lol

html isnt horrid, and js is fine

[summer roost]

I don't love web development either, but there are a lot of jobs for it just because it requires a fair amount of grunt work, and pratically every company needs a website these days

[upbeat galleon]

I very much appreciate the help and ideas. I will be looking on Indeed to find something within my realm of skills as I build

[summer roost]

and small companies with small web dev teams and less of an established developer hiring pipeline are likely to be picky about degrees, and in general less likely to be strongly opinionated about what "the right candidate" looks like

[upbeat galleon]

you dont happen to have any specific companies in mind that I should look for or watch out for, do you?

[summer roost]

no, sorry - web dev is not the type of work I do, and I work for a fairly big company (and haven't been job hunting in a while, heh)

I second the advice that BillyBobby gave: look local.

fully remote roles are tough to land and have a ton of competition, and super prestigious and high paying companies can pay people to relocate. There's relatively less competition for in-person roles in smaller towns and cities

at least with in-person roles, you're only competing with people who are either in the same geographic area as you, or willing to relocate to it (one of the few ways that being in a smaller metro can be beneficial to breaking into tech)

and I suspect there's less competition doing tech stuff for companies that don't seem like "tech companies"

[upbeat galleon]

good advice, thank you

[hybrid oyster]

Give me some advice: I've been laid off with 1 YOE from a startup that did React on the frontend and python on the backend, Google Cloud Platforms. I was working as a full stack software engineer but my experience there is mostly in data engineering with Postgresql. I've been applying to jobs but haven't heard many callbacks, and I completely suck at networking and interviewing. I know the market is brutal for associate / junior engineers but I'm stressing out really hard.

[prime oar]

anyone class 12th cbse? computer science

[harsh ice]

This is good advice

[buoyant seal]

!rule 6 9 <@&831776746206265384>

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[cold stirrup]

sorry

[buoyant seal]

delete your advertisement and it will be great

[trim crypt]

I'm 36, going to be 37 this year. My job experience is in server administration, and troubleshooting but the company is very stagnant and has not made any improvements at this branch that I'm working from remotely, and being on the threat of losing my job if the contract is not renewed with the only big client we have here (but potentially be relocated to work in Australia for their projects instead). I... am content with my current job despite the contract arrangement with the client but not happy that we're not growing this branch and losing the benefit that I've always wanted, i.e. working remotely.

Since learning about this job threat, I have:

1. Built and deployed a couple of projects online in an effort to make extra income and grow (but not doing enough unfortunately).
2. Tried my Forex again. I managed to double my account in the first week but its something I have to do manually as opposed to automated. (also not enough to quit my day job).
3. Tried freelancing again. I got one client, did a few hours of work, client was stubborn, cancelled despite my numerous proposals to deliver, client refused them all. Asked for a refund. Hated that feeling.

In any case, making money is not consistent but I can see the potential if I keep working on it.

I have a family, with 2 boys, paid off my car and my only debt is my home mortgage.

Should I try to look for a new job or keep grinding at my applications into a business?

Ping me if you reply

[radiant vortex]

No advertisment here please

[dense mesa]

I would personally look for a job and continue doing projects as a way of prepping for interviews while also building personal credibility and potentially getting some extra money in.

Don't do forex

[fringe sphinx]

Life advice / open ended career questions are hard because emotions, risk tolerance, motivation, etc is such a big part of it. I've made very different career decisions than some of my peers who were similarly situated (same degree, job, family situation, etc). I've seen people sit in jobs they hate and those who start looking at soon as they are unhappy. So, I can't tell you what you should do, but I can say what I'd do:

[trim crypt]

Thanks

[trim crypt]

I'll take what I can get

[fringe sphinx]

Increase your number of options: apply to jobs, even those outside your direct goal. Earlier today, was suggesting product management to someone who might not have strong technical skills yet but have a lot of other experience, for instance

Start identifying interesting companies and looking at all their job postings, not just the titles you want

If any of these companies have people in your area or 1st/2nd degree of connections on LinkedIn, reach out to learn about the company. Networking but without making it about finding a job, just learning.

[trim crypt]

But if I'm not fit for other job posts, should I still apply? E.g. they ask for ruby experience but I have none

[fringe sphinx]

I'm saying; don't just look at pure coding jobs.

[trim crypt]

I think I understand what you're saying

[fringe sphinx]

And remember all the smaller companies, there are a lot of small tech companies that might not show up on your usual searches

[vapid jay]

I don't know how to use python!

[gritty rivet]

!resources

You can learn it if you want to.... but this is the career channel, so if you have questions that aren't career related, maybe try #python-discussion

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[buoyant venture]

oh

[daring path]

o

[runic forge]

Hi everyone, I hope you have a nice day. If someone has experience working on remote jobs as data scientist or similar role, how often do you have meetings with your team? How do you organize the projects steps?

[peak halo]

my job is hybrid; there are meetings every day.

[deft herald]

Pretty much same. Though we're RTO'ing right now and it sucks

[harsh river]

i'm remote and we have meetings once a week, but as the team grows it might be more often though

[fervent grove]

im hybrid aswell and have daily meetings, what u mean by organize projects steps? (like defining sprints etc.?)

[near ocean]

fully remote here, daily meetings and biweekly sprint plans and retrospectives, scrum is a scam

[fervent grove]

can u elaborate why u say so

[near ocean]

Which part

[fervent grove]

scrum is scam was the only statement so i guess that 😄

[deft herald]

Daily scrums are just time wasters. Full agree on that statement

[near ocean]

Oh, i didnt think it needed explaining lol

[sly ibex]

Can you get a job with A levels, in the software developer field or as a junior one?

[fervent grove]

wasnt he referring to scrum in general and not daily specifically?

[deft herald]

You typically need a full degree

[fervent grove]

for good paying jobs pretty hard, only with network ig

[sly ibex]

Just masters correct? I see masters are popular

[fervent grove]

masters are often sufficient yes

[near ocean]

A lot of ceremony involved, a lot of time wasted
Promises made and not kept, etc

[deft herald]

Bachelor's at the minimum. Masters will potentially open you up to more positions, sure