career-advice

[fallen sage]

cause although social media and public opinion is bs alot of the time, it still does kinda scare me if it might be true

[rugged plume]

Almost certainly will be fine. Programmers, especially at the mid to senior levels are going to be fine. The jobs reduced by AI/LLMs are overblown atm as the issue has been exasurbated by how good the 2022 job market was combined with the fact that we're in an economic downturn atm. It'll come back eventually. People said the same thing back in 2001 after the dot com bubble burst

People on social media care about generating clicks and the best way to do that is to be negative

[fallen sage]

the layoffs rn due to how oversaturated it is seems really bad though?

[fringe sphinx]

That's exactly the point (that Shadow made): the layoffs were not because of oversaturation.

[fallen sage]

ahh i see, i didnt read correctly, mb

[rugged plume]

In some ways yeah. Most of it was an overhiring especially from FAANG companies hiring tens of thousands that they shed over the past year. That isn't to say that all the layoffs are a part of that, but its a large contributing factor. Most big companies do layoffs at some point. Especially certain industires that work off of contracts like in the gaming world

[fringe sphinx]

Plus, a series of economic fears... the fear of a recession, interest rate spikes, etc all created a shift towards cost cutting (layoffs)

[fallen sage]

So do you think for me, who will be most likely graduating in the next 5 years be fine?

[near ocean]

For example, 5 years ago the market was great

[fringe sphinx]

I think anyone who strives to be good at their field will be fine, especially any technical field like CS. If you're just trying to "coast", well, I don't know then.

[vapid jay]

Impossible to say. I'm a US citizen so its a completely different game. However, CS will still be one of the best paying jobs in 5 years. Everyone has trouble getting hired (besides healthcare) currently, so you might as well get paid once you do land a job

[fallen sage]

alr, ty i appreciate help.

[vapid jay]

fwiw, I have a lot of engineering friends that are struggling.

[fallen sage]

i do also have to option to move to the US for CS after i graduate

[vapid jay]

citizen?

[fallen sage]

nope but i do have connections cause of family

[vapid jay]

requiring a visa is going to make it 100x harder

[fallen sage]

I see

i mean its an option but id rather stay in the uk

[vapid jay]

who knows, maybe tariffs will destroy the US economy within 5yrs

[fallen sage]

and also another question, how important is the uni u attend for job applications?

[vapid jay]

important at the start, less important later

[fallen sage]

cause from what ive heard, experience is the most important thing

[pine sleet]

for job applications in particular its not very. though different universities will have different kinds of networks which can be particularly useful

[near ocean]

Get into the best uni you can, thats about it
Russell group if you can

[fallen sage]

yeah 4 of my choices are russel and hopefully i get in

for everyone who replied i appreciate the help 😁

[fringe sphinx]

Good luck... and stick around if you're learning python 🙂

[rugged plume]

When in uni try to get good internships. Having a good internship for experience can really help

[visual flax]

Hi it's me again if I decide to do eletrical engineering I'll have to dual major in computer engineering. Is it work the 12k difference in salary once I graduate?(comparison to mechanical engineering) I like the work of both electrical and mechanical. But since eletricals make more I thought maybe go with that?

[white relic]

It's worth it to be a EE because they are close to the peak of the engineer ego hierarchy. EEs think they can tell MEs how to do their job, but nobody ever thinks they can tell a EE how to do their job

(/s)

I'm biased as a CE myself. But there is some reason why EEs get paid more on average and it correlates with the amount of magic they can handle in their brains without going too insane

[formal forum]

hi

[visual flax]

I like being a mechanical engineer though but I hate making less than my ee counter parts it doesn't matter though imma chill and be an me life's not fair anyway

Im more interested in seeing mechanical parts move Anyway.

[pine sleet]

hello, your message was deleted as it violates rule 9

[serene topaz]

whats rule 9? 😭

[pine sleet]

#rules

[white relic]

more seriously, both are excellent careers, and I would recommend going with what you are good at and makes you happier.
Note that 12k average higher salary does not mean that you, specifically, can earn 12k more as an EE than as ME. Maybe EE is more selective and people who can do it would over time earn more regardless of discipline. Maybe specific subfields of EE are especially highly paid but harder to access. Maybe EEs are just easier to count. There are a lot of confounding factors.

Also tbh I'm not sure if 12k a year is enough to compensate me for the sanity I would surely lose to thinking about RF signal processing but that's just me

[smoky quest]

beauty is in the eyes of the beholder

[white relic]

I prefer things to be nice and DC. Square waves are acceptable and sinusoids are allowed as long as they aren't too fast

[deft herald]

Rf is insane man. The fact we can process 273rbs * 12 subcarriers * 5 aggregated cells of 1024 QAM signals every 1/14th of a millisecond in freaking real time is wild to me

That's for 5G < 6GHz band. The millimeter wave stuff is even faster

[empty gazelle]

guys where can i get part time work for coders on discord

[smoky quest]

any freelance website

[empty gazelle]

i was wondering if anything available on discord

[smoky quest]

We don't allow recruitment on this server

[muted bridge]

crazy that this is the first time someone's ever said "mogs" in this channel

[visual flax]

Thanks for the answer man. Exceedingly helpful

[final rose]

Um hi...

[craggy marlin]

Hi guys, i need a help with a project i have in my mind , i was hoping someone could help

Dm me

[peak halo]

@craggy marlin see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[robust moth]

can hardware RNGs or specifically lava lamp type encryption (TRNG) stop NSA type of department access to systems. Or is the system inherently at flaw due to backdoors in processor and motherboard infrastructure?

[fringe sphinx]

Ask over in #cybersecurity

[acoustic plaza]

Why is there so many videos about cs job market being oversaturared and it is not worth to become

[rose escarp]

guys can anybody guide me how do i get a job as a python developer

[vapid violet]

Because that type of video gathers engagement and money, they are often exaggerated

[fringe sphinx]

Share an example, and I'll point out their: lack of substance, supporting data, conflating facts, cherry picking, and other poor arguments.

[loud iris]

Hi, does anyone have feedback/roasts/nitpicks for my resume? 3Yoe Full Stack developer. 150 apps, only 1 callback.

Agree with these points?

• Does it focus more on task than business impact?
• Does it have any business impact?
• Bulletpoints too long/hard to read?
• Is it too bland/vague?
• Are bulletpoints not specific enough?
• Not enough metrics?
• Too flowery/inflated?
• Lacking keywords for distributed systems/full stack development?

[open ivy]

It seems good. I like the percentage improvement metrics. It says "open source project for _" that needs to be filled out but I assume it is in the real version.

But sending out cold applications is not a very effective strategy, unless you stumble upon a 'hidden gem" or have a very strong record.

[muted bridge]

Should bullet points be one-liners or is it fine if they're all two lines?

[open ivy]

The margins are a bit small so the lines of text is a little long. Maybe it could be shortened. Twoliner bullets seem fine to my eyes.

But this is all small stuff. I3 years of experience is solid. And there is no clear significant resume problem. This demonstrates that mass cold applications isn't a good strategy.

[loud iris]

People are now saying too many b ulletpoints for one job

But idk if i want to remove anything cuz they are kind of important. Only the last one is removable. Someone told me to add soft skills so thast why i added the last one

[fringe sphinx]

Zero chance I'm reading all those bullets

[open ivy]

The word count can be tightened slightly.

But I don't think these small improvements will have that big of an effect (the small sample size of n=1 callbacks makes it hard to measure).

The resume is not fundamentally broken. Something else is. I always gripe about cold applications, but it could be something else.

[fringe sphinx]

I'll read the first bullet when filtering.

Don't know why you're emphasizing 'open source' in the projects, isn't that important. Emphasize what you did

[loud iris]

Should I separte into sections? I worked on 2 different teams in the same company so it was like 5 bulletpoints per team. But people told me to just combine everything into the same company, so now it looks rly cluttered

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, try that. Two roles within same company would make more sense than a lot of bullets

[loud iris]

Ok sure. Idk why ppl told me to combine everything into 1 team. Always get conflicting advice with my resume lol

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, everyone has a different opinion with resumes. Mine is just one opinion, not right or wrong.

[loud iris]

Maybe its ATS systems? I score 7/10. So maybe it just automatically filters your resume out if you dont score 10/10? Since theres hundreds of applicants per role

[open ivy]

Maybe? " hundreds of applicants per role" is exactly why I am not mass sending out applications. I simply can't compete with those numbers, I may be top 10% but not top 1% and will almost always be beaten.

If there are 200 other applicants, and I am top 10%, then the chance of me being the best is 0.9^200 ~ 1 in a billion.

Of course, this is a simplification and it's not that bleak. I estimate its more like 20,000.

[fringe sphinx]

I don't understand this logic. What effort or cost is it to you to apply to these jobs?

[open ivy]

It's not much effert per application, so as long as I keep the total number of applications below 100 or so it's not a bad thing to try.

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, just don't take yourself out of the game prematurely.

[open ivy]

There must be something better than cold applications.

[fringe sphinx]

Cold applications are just one ingredient.

Networking, career fairs, etc are other ingredients.

[open ivy]

If I network and then apply to companies that my connections are working for, is it really a cold application anymore?

[fringe sphinx]

It's a UNION not an INTERSECTION.

[open ivy]

So far I never had anything jump out at me (except a long way back, and I applied and got an interview there).

So I need a better way to find closer matches rather than generic "Dev Ops".

With such a system I think cold applications make sense.

Because there is something that stands out about that company. They are not just another DevOps company, they are the company that is replacing a Terraform workflow with a general purpose language workflow (for an example that is close to what I did).

[fringe sphinx]

It's really hard to judge companies from the outside.

[open ivy]

Yes but I need something to differentiate the company to make a cold application worth it. If they say they are transitioning to a Python (or even a Javascript) workflow away from DSLs (because DSLs lack crucial features and thus can be limiting) that would be such a thing that fits my expirence.

Otherwise there is nothing there to boost my odds. I need something to boost my odds!

[fringe sphinx]

"I need something to differentiate the company to make a cold application worth it": Why?

You'll never know your odds. It sounds like you're preemptively removing yourself from consideration.

I would understand if you had to turn down interview offers, but not sending a resume out? Doesn't save you any time.

[open ivy]

Applications can be annoying, you often need a seperate workday account and confirm with email for each application. And fill out many details "yes I am authorized to work in America" "what education did I have".

If it is below 100 or so it is OK. But the "mass spamming out" strat is a big waste of time when you are talking about well over 100. Pennies add up.

If you think that it is worth it to crank the number about 500 or so, I guess I could invest in some serious Selenium automation.

Even a small niche overlap like "I worked with this little bit of obscure tech and so did you" is a big leg up when there are so many people who are just spamming all over the place.

[true harness]

this math does not make sense...

[fringe sphinx]

What I'm saying is: the niche fit is completely impossible to predict. The job description, company info, etc is often disconnected from what they're looking for.

To me, it sounds like you're trying to optimize with imprecise and uncertain data.

[open ivy]

Lets say that I am in the top 10% of runners. That means I have a 90% chance of beating any given racer. How likely am I going to win a race with 200 other random people in it?

Each person, in this simplified model, is an independent identical random variable with a 90% chance of being True (because 90% of runners are slower than me). The chance that all variables are True is a simply the multiplication of these independent chances. So the chance of winning is 0.90.90.9... , 200 times. Or 0.9 raised to the 200 power.

The math makes sense. Of course the model is simplified, the reality is not equal to the math. But the reality is still that large pools of competition generally amplify inequality and that my odds in a 200-person pool are still significantly below 1/200 because I am not a very strong applicant.

[open ivy]

At what number of applications should I give up or at least slow the process down because it is failing? 100? 200? 1000?

If the number if above 500 I should definitly Selenium.

[fringe sphinx]

Allocate a fixed amount of time each day to job apps. Don't worry bout count.

[true harness]

if you are in the top 10% of runners, then you will beat the other 90%. that's what "top 10%" means

[open ivy]

Any good Selenium tools? With automation combined with keyword tailoring and manual CAPTCHA solving, I can probably get the time down to 60 seconds per application + 60 seconds per search (so 2 minutes total per company).

If it has to be a numbers game it will be worth automating things.

[open ivy]

But they don't pick the entire top 10%, they only pick the top applicant or two. Out of 200 or so.

[fringe sphinx]

I doubt that'll be a winning strategy

[true harness]

yes. so if you are in the top 10%, then you only have to care about 10% of the applicants. if you're talking about the probability that you will be in the top 10%, that's different, and is also not what you calculated

[open ivy]

Why would saving time getting yet another workaday account or saying that "yes I am a citizen" or inputing my address be not a winning strategy?

I can focus my (very limited) per applicant time on tayloring instead of yet another "enter GPA" box.

[open ivy]

That's still 20 that beat me each time! If I get lucky than only 5 people will beat me.

[fringe sphinx]

!xkcd 1205

Hmm

.xkcd 1205

[flat anvil]

XKCD comic #1205

Don't forget the time you spend finding the chart to look up what you save. And the time spent reading this reminder about the time spent. And the time trying to figure out if either of those actually make sense. Remember, every second counts toward your life total, including these right now.

2013/4/29 - #1205, 'Is It Worth the Time?'

[open ivy]

If the total number will stay below 128, I agree with you that it is not worth it.

But if the total number will be 512+, it is worth it.

129-511, I am unsure.

[near ocean]

What level of experience is this btw

[open ivy]

Not improving the resume grind is my concern.

I hate the resume grind! It does not build social or technical skills. It is un-natrual for how humans build relationships. It is a lot less fun than almost any other strat. But I am willing to try it if there is a way to improve it.

Setting aside avoiding applications all together by networking, there are many ways to improve job applications:

• Finding better matches to niche experience.
• Knowing someone at the company, even if just a little (for big companies, they need to be in the same sub-organization).
• Automation, even if only 80% or so (CAPTCAs, manual tayloring, etc can stay manual)
• Jobs advertised in obscure places (I did apply via a Discord where they advertised a position internally instead of a job board site).

But without any way to make the process better, then spamming out resumes feels like almost a pure waste of time in my current situation and for many others. I will do it a little, just in case, but it will not be a core strategy. So I want to check off at least one of these bullet points before moving forward.

[open ivy]

I have 1 year industry in the cloud at a tiny company and many years academia in computational bio.

[loud iris]

Updated my resume to separate my 2 different teams, how does this look?

[rugged plume]

That looks pretty good to me. However you may want to put the time you were focused on backend then update your current full stack position so its easily determined which times you were each

[muted bridge]

pick a different word than developed, you already used it 5 times

[neon gulch]

SUIIII!!

[summer plover]

honestly not a really big issue but sure he can reduce the amount of times he used that verb

[fringe sphinx]

This looks much better. The bullets look heavily GPTd tho, try to short and emphasize the tech stack and task. 'Improved scalability of search functionality by refactoring' for example is a lot of words to say little

[loud iris]

ok thanks, will try to shorten and keep concise

[earnest sand]

Really? Cool

[fast fossil]

so you have friends that have worked QA for EA too?

[rugged plume]

Yeah one of them was a QA lead I think. Haven't talked with them in a while tho

EA has a decent presence in my city

[deft plaza]

Can an experienced python dev please share with us your learning path? Where did you start, what do you consider intermediate (what projects), and how did you become advanced? What is your best project?

[mild ledge]

I second this question. I'm currently a financial coach/counselor for a non profit but I love technology and love languages and I have suddenly decided that I will be learning HTML CSS and JavaScript to start, since that kinda combines both, but I feel lost. Part of this journey is definitely related to income as I feel hopeless and stuck, but I'm determined and excited to learn. Thank you to anyone that answers in advance

[buoyant seal]

i consider myself being Python backend develop at this moment, and DevOps engineer. But with strong passion to do stuff in Golang.
My journey.

• Used python at a student level during masters degree to implement university tasks and neural network stuff. Understood i don't like neural networks, due to smelling lack of creativity to work with them. They looked to me like Black Boxes to input things/correc tin different ways and pray that yet another algorithm iteration would be more efficient on a target data set.
• After graduation got invited to go through interview for python backend job, for which in 5 days i had to implement Flask Mega tutorial (without some points of it) https://blog.miguelgrinberg.com/post/the-flask-mega-tutorial-part-i-hello-world . Passed, became pythoning commercially.
• Beginning my self education with Introducing Python in simple packages book. it was nice for overview in general of a python
• Went further with Hitchiker's guide. it was just overview what eixsts in python in terms of ecosyste mas far as i remember.
• Appreciated a lot reading Clean code in Python, it explained how to configure Modern dev env for it, and all syntax sugar existing in python at least.
• Still struggled how the heck parallelism works in python and what's difference between its different versions? This and other advanced more niche usage cases i read from https://www.amazon.com/Expert-Python-Programming-practices-programming/dp/1801071101

At work i was using flask but quickly realized i can be more profficient with Django. it was novice friendly to make a lot of stuff to work very quickly
working with Flask was a struggle, due to needing to know a lot of Python best practices to avoid all its pitifals. Django was forigiving to my novice stuff.

At some point at last experimented enough to figure out... how the hell Importing works in Python, absolute and relative one for sure. How to have flat regular structure in it and not hacking PYTHONPATH at all. All i needed just placing __init__.py in every folder, except not into root folder of a repository. Took me long time to discover it.

Around after second Python book i was actually learning first how to code with quality. Started doing it at the same time as using Django pretty much.
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#UnitTestingPrinciplesPracticesandPatterns
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#TestDrivenDevelopmentByExample
Those two books helped me a lot ot understand value of unit testing and get to the level where i literally develop code only from unit tests.
I have setup in vscode visual debugger to crawl through my code or third party libs code and became gradually an average level of commercial level dev operating with python.

I learned stuff further for code quality
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#CodeCompleteAPracticalHandbookofSoftwareConstruction for all around stuff

Those were essential for code architecture to get
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#HeadfirstDesignPatterns
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#CleanArchitectureACraftsmansGuide (Very useful to plan designing your custom code / apps / libs)
I became guessing... how to apply it to python... those recipes were just not working.

I became interested in Mypy / Python typing... as it looked like to hold answers how to write some architecture in python
https://docs.python.org/3/library/typing.html through learned this page
https://careers.wolt.com/en/blog/tech/professional-grade-mypy-configuration gradually made my mypy config stricter
Configured its integration with vscode to show in real time problems with my code.
Got used to using actually data structs from regular python datastruct, to TypedDict (due to typing it is technically one) to the best one Pydantic https://docs.pydantic.dev/latest/ with runtime validations
Weaponized with those tools, and actually having stuff more or less matching to what code architecture books described i got to the level of designing neat libraries at work when necessary.

Having at my disposure

• unit testing
• visual debug
• being comfortable to dig through any third party libs code
• figured out at last how to use Python https://docs.python.org/3/library/logging.html and created personal micro lib for structured logging https://docs.python.org/3/howto/logging-cookbook.html stuff. that enhanced by debugging capabilities further (For better debugging of running apps)
• and having typing enforced by pydantic + mypy/pyright

I received the level where i am efficiently able to operate python with the most comfort.

Took me one or two created library attempt beginning to iterate through bad code architecture design with overnengineering to figure out coding the minimum necessary stuff the most fitting desired things.
At some point explored FastAPI, but never received satisfaction. Got a bit of dissapointed with how rare to encounter Python devs using typing... and migrated to actually using Golang for pet projects. Which i did even before I learned typing. Golang helped me to get Code architecture and how to use Typing in python.
Golang helped me to be super productive in pet projects.
Continuing to use Python at work

TLDR: I consider the most important of aspect to code in python unit testing, the two books i read about it helped me to achieve average commercial quality i can appreciate... sufficient enough to work with Python. It is probably the most important aspect as unit tests can validate at runtime all the hackery people do with Python usually. U need to unit test your database related code too, having sufficient testing coverage for them to work. Still disliking that most of devs at work do not use typing... but surviving this enough, at least nobody forbids me going typing/data struct all the way in my designed libraries.

Learned at some point how to document python well, with different available documentation as a code tools. Sphinx, mkdocs, mermaid.ks, using autodoc and etc. So the stuff i make is very well throughly documented in addition. autodoc importing definitions from my well typed code (sprinkled with Google docstrings stuff) is helping me having very easy to maintain documentation as a code.

P.S. at that reached point i went into other languages basically, as I reached the level where i am satisfied enough with reached python level.

[buoyant seal]

recounted my journey with python above

[mild ledge]

Thank you so much. I have so much to learn but I'm excited

[buoyant seal]

I could extra highlight that i value the most Developer Comfort, Rapid feedback from the code, from the local parts or if running as a whole and etc, all that i learned helped me to achieve it at the most capacity with python. Making enjoyable experience to maintain the resulting any custom (or not custom) designed code for years.
I aimed the most to achieve that.
All the stuff i learned together with how to name stuff and eliminate its bad smells and etc, helped me at some point finally achieving that level where i can open my code in a year later and not regret that it was written. i am at last able to reread it highly quickly and continue its development in features or maintanace without problems. All the typing, documentation through unit testing and etc, it all helps to enjoy maintaining code further.
I had plenty array of apps in the past thrown away to graveyard that did not pass this threshold

[deft plaza]

Thank you so much for putting in the time and effort to write to us your experience! We appreciate it!

[faint quest]

hi

[dusk flume]

Awsome

[tawny ferry]

Hey

[still summit]

python is for the weak

[amber moth]

Is there any future in python

[radiant vortex]

hi, this isn't the place for recruitment

[buoyant seal]

it is on its shining moment raise and going to shine potentially even more so far 😉
one of the best choices among dynamic typed languages.
So... at least we can predict that in a close 20 years there will be a lot of python. and good chances close 40 years too.

[golden jetty]

damn, who the hell is recruiting here

[near ocean]

no one, people just cant read the rules they agree to

[golden jetty]

do people actually find jobs on linkedin or indeed? there are only a handful of job listings per thousands of devs

[true harness]

yes

[golden jetty]

is that how most devs find a job? did you find your job on linkedin?

[near ocean]

On indeed and linkedin yes

[open ivy]

I would say that at higher expirenece levels:

1. What software would you want to see be written that does not exsit yet? How can you simplify the problem domain enough to write a prototype of your own?
2. At the expireneced level, language is secondary. Sure, Python is more convienent (in my opionion) but I could handle Javasript, Go, or even C++ if I really needed to.

[fringe sphinx]

I think the beginning is messy: there's an infinite set of topics you could learn, but; one good test of your 'Python' knowledge is looking at the Python tutorial table of contents and counting the number of topics you know. You don't need to know all of them, but every time you look you'll find something new: https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/index.html

Separately, consider starting with a variety of projects to build your foundation . A web app, a game, something 'data' related (see Kaggle.com/learn), a TUI, etc. Then, work in related skills: git/GitHub, ci/cd, unit tests, publishing to pypi, Linux, cloud, etc

[astral fable]

I use google collaboratory for coding btw and it’s really comfortable

The advantages of using that is you can sync with ur google account, you can store documents in drive, each document has multiple terminals, and there’s a built in syntax corrector which gives you active feedback

[raw pulsar]

Hello! I'm new to this community, and python as well.

I'm here because I would like some advice on my career moving forward.

I'm actually a 3D artist who has been trying to enter the gaming industry for a few years now.

No luck with that so far and freelancing in the 3d market has become a bit more difficult that it used to be, so I faced myself with the decision of switching careers.

I already know some coding in C# as I made some small personal projects in Unity, so I'm not totally clueless about programming.

My older brother told me that learning python might be a good option for me, so I started with a python course.

I've been following the course with relatively no issues, the structure of the language is very intuitive for me and I'm excited to learn more.

After all this setup, my question will be:

As a son to be python dev, in which field should I specialize?

What are the job opportunities I should be aiming for as a beginner?

Keep in mind that I'm willing to learn and spend the time I need to become a great python dev.

It's just that I don't want to spend time on things that I may not be needing in my new career.

Thanks.

[buoyant seal]

As a son to be python dev, in which field should I specialize?
as far as i am aware python devs pursue usually Backend development(or other web dev related stuff like Data engineering)
or go data science/machine learning route 🙂

[buoyant seal]

in this regard, your C# is usable for backend development as well. As long as u will use it for Linux first development and adhere to some proper development standards like wrapping result into docker container / running unit tests in CI for every commit, it is supposed to be able reaching some good results

[fallen ocean]

Well, from my experience, I will give you some advices

python is one of popular languages nowadays

Many frameworks and libraries are developed by python

that means you can easily develop any application you want more easily by using them

it is one of the reason why it is popular in developers

and the other reason is it is powerful syntax

I advise that you study frameworks such as Django, Flask etc

all of them use python syntax

during django's study, you can get the more deep knowledge of python.

[vapid jay]

Hi

[fallen ocean]

Hi, @vapid jay

[buoyant seal]

@raw pulsar it would be misguiding to say this though

that means you can easily develop any application you want more easily by using them
Python is almost completely not usable for Desktop development, or for Mobile development, its usability for Web frontend is present in a limited fashion.
And it is not common for embedded development as well, although micropython does exist

Python is mostly usable only for web development related stuff, machine learning stuff and scripting.
In other fields.. as far as i am aware... it is used just for fun at this point

python is one of popular languages nowadays
python is indeed one of the most popular languages nevertheless 🙂

[fallen ocean]

Well, I think @buoyant seal misunderstood what i want know say.

in case we develop any application using python,

because there are many libraries and apis developed by python

[fringe sphinx]

Do not think about specializing. Generalize first. Learn lots of things.

[fallen ocean]

we can easily integrate and use them in application development

[vapid jay]

Anyone here interested to join Snowflake event? It is pune on 14th dec.

[fringe sphinx]

For some ideas of what to start with, see #career-advice message

[vapid jay]

Oh how're you?

[fallen ocean]

nice to meet you

[vapid jay]

Yup

[fallen ocean]

I want to know @buoyant seal 's thought

[rugged plume]

Just because you can technically build anything in Python, doesn't mean its the best for the job

Different languages are better at solving different problems

[vapid jay]

Woahh

[buoyant seal]

Sure. Python is known for rich ecosystem, which we could glance here https://github.com/vinta/awesome-python for example.
And Python is indeed general purpose language. So a lot of stuff is implementable with it.

The original saying "that means you can easily develop any application you want more easily by using them" remains not correct though
Because despite python ecosystem richness and popularity, the language constraints specifics make it not very usable for implementing client side user interfaces.
Its ecosystem is rich, no doubt, but... very flawed if u will try to develop smth in terms of desktop/mobile/client side interactive web front.
the result will have problems in terms of Performance, Memory, Multithreading usage to not block user input at least

TLDR: Python is sure general purpose language you can do a lot with, but for the areas i highlighted... it will not yield even average acceptable result (depends on project specifics, some requirements can be light enough to survive having implemented desktop apps in python)
So.. Python is not a multitool fitting every usage case. It has its strong points (Rich ecosystem , popularity, usability for its strong areas, easy unit testability due to dynamic typing nature, beginner friendliness) and plenty of weak points

[fallen ocean]

maybe you are right

python is used for script

[rugged plume]

I'm not in the dev world. Rather in the world of Networking. We use python for task automation which is basically scripting. Developer teams I've worked with have used other programing languages for different things. My dad's a Principle Software Dev (Been programing since the 80s) and while he specializes in C++, he's got working knowledge in multiple other languages. Understanding how different languages work and how to use them to solve problems makes you a more efficient developer.

[deft herald]

At my work, we use it for automating hardware & software testing

[fallen ocean]

but Django or flask that are developer by python gives us good opportunity to develop web application and mobile app.
As you know, python is developed for large scale application just like C.

[vapid jay]

My team and I currently using python to solve Item response theory. Too much mathematics and statistics is involved in it. What we're doing is to find difficulty of items (questions) and ability of candidates...blah blah blah... 🫠🫠🫠

Working on newton rasch model, iterative minorization and etc ...

[rugged plume]

I've dabbled in Django to basically make a web GUI for an automation tool connecting to a few APIs, but mobile apps are usually made in other languages like Swift as almost every App on IOS is built in Swift

[raw pulsar]

I see, thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge, and the rest of the people as well.

So, even though python is a versatile tool, it is not efficient besides the three areas you mentioned.

To what I ask, is the job market for python healthy? Are there good chances for beginners?

And another question, this may be a newbie question, you mentioned, web development, machine learning and scripting. What do you mean by scripting?

[fringe sphinx]

According to IEEE and GitHub, Python has never been more popular: https://spectrum.ieee.org/top-programming-languages-2024 and https://github.blog/news-insights/octoverse/octoverse-2024/

[west ibex]

Hey guys, check out this sequence diagram. Is it correct? Do you think it covers all the important steps? Let me know your thoughts

[near ocean]

This is the careers channel, this is offtopic

[foggy moss]

hi guys, how can I use this discord server at best for learning with the purpose of finding a job?

[rugged plume]

Well you can use certain chats to learn about certain topics in python and this chat is good for helping you setup your resume and/or cover letter.

[final ravine]

You might want to separate login and sign up?

[final ravine]

Maybe you also need session management?

Also "systeme" is a typo

And "databases" is probably not correct

Woops I thought this was general

[west ibex]

thanks !!

[west ibex]

I'm not very confident with UML at the moment, but I'm working on improving hhh

[buoyant seal]

Other questions were already answered.

Scripting I mean implementing console applications, using as a glue for system administrators and DevOps engineers in server infrastructure purposes.
Something making simple logic in AWS lambda, server less stuff, or some cron job scripts, this is all scripting there

Technically we could add here that scripting in general is a quick prototyping of a code and writing of a small in code lines solutions. Usually with aim for never maintaining end result. As long as smth written is standalone micro sized written code, it is scripting for sure. If u delete your code after its run shortly after it was written, it is definitely scripting too. So technically almost all python related job roles at some measure do scripting.

[foggy moss]

thank you. And how about if I don't know what route to go? I'm honestly lost as to what route to take. If I should study python in general, or have more of a direction

oh, and then I don't know if I should aim for freelancing, or getting employed..

[rugged plume]

The basics are still the basics. Understanding variables, dictionaries, if/elif, etc. You learn the most on projects. For example you could make a python script that when executed sorts files from your download folder to other places based on file type (pdf, word, etc.). I think there's a bot command that lists to beginner projects you can try out.

Freelancing is hard to do, but possible. Employed helps you secure benefits that're much easier

However both will need you to understand how to program so having some projects under your belt that you can show to potential employers is very helpful on your resume

[magic breach]

is the cs job market really that bad? My friends a family have been telling me that the cs job market has been eating shit and its kind make me really unsure of what im doing really will give me financial stability. could someone enlighten me on why are people are saying this, and the possible future of programmers?

[foggy moss]

if you find that bot command can you tell me what it is? So you think getting employed is easier than freelancing? I don't know at what point I should start applying for jobs, the job offers I find look very intimidating because they require a lot

[rugged plume]

This has been discussed alot already. The CS/Tech jobs in general have been on the downturn mostly due to layoffs in bigger tech companies that was caused from overhiring back in 2021-2022. Companies got alot of money and tech ones grew majorly and thus hired. Currently we've been in a downturn for the past year, but that's happened to tech before. The 2001 dot com bubble was a big one as well as the 2007-8 financial crash caused some layoffs too. Tech jobs are likely going to have some bounce back, but most online "influencers" are overblowing it due to negative coverage getting more clicks and thus them more money

[rugged plume]

Easier is relative. I prefer employment because I don't have to do as much work on my taxes, I get to work with plenty of smart people that help me strive to do better and its a clear career path for me to mvoe up and eventually become a senior engineer. Here's the output from one of the commands I found scrolling up

Kindling Projects
The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[smoky quest]

Today, the market is bad. But note that the students who graduate today had a very hot market when they entered school 4 years ago.
Don't optimize for the conditions of today. Optimize for your whole 40 years long career, which will contain ups and downs

[foggy moss]

I'll have a look at the kindling projects page, thank you!

[rugged plume]

!kindling

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[rugged plume]

And all job markets go through phases. Some years are harder than others, while different years were better. My dad's been a programmer since the 80s and he's seen a lot. Its all about your path in what you like doing and are good at.

[magic breach]

does this include the competition of cs aswell? friends have told me that cs is extremely competitive and to get a job you need to be in ivy league's and get a bunch of internships for companies to even consider hiring you ect. bit of a exaggeration but i think you gfet the point

[rugged plume]

Currently its competitive at the entry to mid level, however it'll likely get easier at some point once the economy gets better like most things. Also unless you went to a top 10 CS school, then most hiring managers don't care about where you got your degree as long as its an accredited institution. Your work experience is what counts MUCH more than a degree

If you want to land a dream internship like Google then sure, but you can still get internships other places and do other things to set yourself apart like starting a blog/YouTube channel about your studies and projects as well as a Github. Things like this 90% of programers and people in tech broadly don't do

[thin rain]

guys what career should i persue if im after a fully remote job

im new to programming and still learning python but i still dont know what i want to do

i just want something that is fully remote

[near ocean]

everyone wants a fully remote job, what do you have to make you stand out

[rugged plume]

like the other person said you have to stand out. Less companies are doing remote work and the ones that are usually don't pay as well due to that so you have to consider that. I had a friend who was a Jr Dev in Catapillar I think and she was worked to the bone, but it was fully remote so you have to consider what may happen. If you're just now learning programing I'd toss out the idea of working remote for at least a few years of experience tbh unless you're going to go the freelance/be your own boss route which is hard to do when you're just starting out

[thin rain]

nothing yet that's why im asking for advice

[near ocean]

the standard advice is to get a degree

[thin rain]

and its not the i dont want a office job its that where i live there are barely any programming jobs

[rugged plume]

Then you're kinda stuck for the most part. Everyone is wanting remote jobs. Even higher qualified people so your competition is steep from the jump

[thin rain]

i just dont know where to look to get experience

[rugged plume]

Getting a degree is a good start but you'll need projects to stand out.

After you've learned the basics you'll want to build projects that you can display on places like Github. If you can further document in a YouTube channel/blog that can also go a long way too

[thin rain]

ah alr mate

[near ocean]

i feel like you just skipped over the degree part, but ok

[rugged plume]

I think the degree is kinda overrated, but if people don't really put in too much effort into self study then it becomes more needed

[fringe sphinx]

I think there's a mistake most people make when talking about projects. The goal of the projects is to gain knowledge and experience, which is what makes you a better interviewee/candidate. Projects in the resume isn't the goal; it's a byproduct of practicing.

[rugged plume]

If you can afford tuition in your country without going into deep debt then sure CS is a good degree for learning programing and other skills as a developer

[rugged plume]

That is fair, it also helps show problem solving skills if they help fix issues as well.

[near ocean]

there's probably no country on this green earth where a working professional software developer would have a problem paying back student loans
this debt argument is bad

[rugged plume]

Depends on the school and money you get coming out of school, but yes its not as bad as getting a teaching degree in the US where I'm at

[white relic]

getting a degree for [one of the highest paid professions for which a specialized degree is practically required] is not as bad as getting a degree for [one of the lowest paid professions which is so desperate for people they will often hire someone with a degree of no relevance at all]

hot take, there.

[fringe sphinx]

I can't advise you on your school system. But: anyone can learn Python, at whatever pace they want. Even if you don't do CS, learning programming is useful.

[open ivy]

I have industry experience in Dev Ops. But we decided to use Python instead of DSLs like Terraform. There is a tradeoff, the advantage of Python/Javascript/etc is that we never had to leave the Python ecosystem with all of it's tools.

Among Dev-ops heavy companies, which ones are also using a Python workflow? Pulumi comes to mind, but there must be others. These may be good for me to apply too.

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't recommend to box yourself in a specific language/framework, unless that's something you want to

[buoyant seal]

Terraform is way more usable, recommending to learn it
I will note here that at this case... Very low gap should be been terraform and python.
Most of knowledge pool comes from knowing how to operate specific Cloud Provider like AWS and all its tricks.

As long as u a used to proper infrastructure as a code, with plan building, reviewing and applying at a high level to operate cloud provide... It should be the same for you in terraform

[buoyant seal]

Tldr: recommending in your IAC skills to concentrate on specific big cloud provider for marketability. How does not important, as long as you aren't using completely crappy approach like using Cloud Formation as a main tool

[open ivy]

I get very stuck with terraform.

Even the basics such as: How to write a function that takes a list, and appends the string "foo" to the end of the list.

Haskell, C++, Java(script), Python, Clojure, etc it is all easy. Some of these make it easier to modify the list in place, others make it easier to return a new "copy" of the list.

But I don't know how to do this in terraform.

[buoyant seal]

I shall recommend this book. it made it for me breathingly easy journey into operating terraform syntax
quite short one and easy to read, going through all terraform syntax tricks and code reusage technics

All the years after that i only investigated cloud provider specifics after that 😉

[thin rain]

how many years did it take for u guys to land a programming job?(learning all the languages)

any1 here self taught and got a job?

[balmy spade]

I don't know what "learning all the languages" means in reference to getting a programming job. I applied for jobs and after about six months of looking found one in technology that led to my current programming job.

I guess I am self taught if what you mean is that I don't have a degree.

Mind you, I've been in the workforce for over 25 years prior to that so where many use the degree, I just used my experience.

[thin rain]

so how many years did it take

like from the day u started to learn programming to the day u landed a job

[balmy spade]

I don't know how to answer that in a way that would make any sense. Six months of working in Python before I got the title "software engineer". I was an application engineer before that which took me three years of being a senior business support specialist prior to that. I've been programming, lightly, for 30+ years.

[thin rain]

ah that's tough

how did u get your swe title without a degree?

[rugged plume]

Also time doesn't mean much as people learn and study differently over time. A person doing it for 30min a day vs 4hrs can be significant

[balmy spade]

I asked for it.

[thin rain]

how was the process can u explain?

[thin rain]

yea ik i just wanna know the average

cause like i 've been learning for 12 days and for now all i know is how to "play" with classes functions lists dictionaries

[balmy spade]

I already did, just reread my explination above.

How could you be a software engineer? I would suggest getting a degree if you have no other experience and then applying for jobs. Understand that it's sometimes easier to get into a support position before you take on a full software development position.

[thin rain]

im still in my last year of high school and still barely know python but im having a hard time picking a path for now

like idk if i wanna go with cybersecurity , data analysis , etc..

[pine sleet]

the simplest path for most high school seniors looking to go into cs is to get a cs degree

[balmy spade]

You have plenty of basics and "playing" to do long before you will need to focus on a specific domain.

[thin rain]

ah that makes sense

i still dont know what the path is to swe , do i get a cs degree first?

[balmy spade]

Another way to look at it is this: Sample them all. Learn a bit of everything that interests you. When you find something that interests you more than other things you'll naturally find yourself learning more and more about that thing.

A degree will be extremely helpful.

[thin rain]

is it possible to land an internship without college?

[pine sleet]

yeah. in the meanwhile build projects, have fun and see whats out there

it is possible but the majority of internships are for college students

[balmy spade]

It is possible. It is significantly more difficult.

[thin rain]

how do i go about getting certificates in the future?

[pine sleet]

for swe? i wouldnt bother

there arent really any good ones

[thin rain]

can a first year get internships?

[pine sleet]

yeah

[balmy spade]

If you are exceptional, certainly.

[thin rain]

exceptional is what im aiming for thats why im starting a year early lol

[pine sleet]

you should still get involved in things like career fairs and company chats just to get comfortable, not necessarily to land something (though that is certainly possible)

[fringe sphinx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6rP-YP4c5I

[thin rain]

how do i do that

[balmy spade]

This may or may not have been on endless repeat for about three months of time on my work laptop. :)

[pine sleet]

go to career fairs and company chats

and whatever other events your school hosts

[thin rain]

i dont think we have those here lol

[pine sleet]

or whatever equivalent you have

[thin rain]

ah yea we definitely dont im in lebanon we dont even have school atm cause there's a war

[pine sleet]

i think pretty much every university in the world has some event or another to get students acquainted with the industry

[thin rain]

yea maybe in a couple of months when things calm down here

[pine sleet]

yeah idk what to tell you there but just keep an eye out

[thin rain]

thanks for the info mate

[harsh river]

and idk, i guess i was in a sort of unique position as the area i started learning to program for, didn't have many programmers, so i was sort of making money from the early beginnings, but it wasn't much

[thin rain]

how were u making money at the beginning?

[harsh river]

it was a niche field, so people wanted custom programs but not many people were available to make them.

it's a good rule of thumb, find a niche, and sell to it

[thin rain]

that isnt happening today tho lets be honest wayyy too many people in programming

[harsh river]

theres many people in programming, not all of them stick to it.

[thin rain]

yea thats true

[true harness]

yes. it's not too difficult

[muted bridge]

pretty fucking hard

[thin rain]

that's not nice to hear lol , why is that?

[muted bridge]

been there

I had all the big names under my belt as a freshman. In my junior year of hs, I got admitted into a pretty selective CS summer program at carnegie mellon; in my senior year, pretty much the same thing, except Jane Street. I applied to ~70 jobs my freshman year and nothing

[thin rain]

damn that must just be pure bad luck

[muted bridge]

it wasn't really bad luck

[smoky quest]

CMU is based

[muted bridge]

it's incredibly hard to land internships, let alone as a freshman. You're mostly limited to those freshman-only internships and even those typically have way too many applicants for it to be easy

[thin rain]

where is cmu?

[muted bridge]

This year (sophomore) I made it to the final round of Duolingo Thrive (sophomore only), something around the ball park of ~ 10k applied, 70 made it to the technical, maybe 40 made it to the behavioral, and only 8 succeeded. Not saying it wasn't worth it / I didn't learn anything from it, but it is NOT easy to get internships early in the game

[smoky quest]

https://www.cmu.edu/

[thin rain]

worth a try tho ngl

[muted bridge]

I don't mean to say you're doomed but the #1 tip I would've given myself last year is to look into fellowships, research opportunities, and anything your university offers. You are far more likely to land those as a freshman

[thin rain]

when did u start coding? highschool?

[muted bridge]

Yeah, sophomore in HS

[thin rain]

yea most likely

what career path did u end up in?

[muted bridge]

I'm still a sophomore but now I've transitioned from SWE to ML since I definitely find it cooler

[thin rain]

yea ive heard about ml being cool but its hard

[muted bridge]

and BTW, I did land an internship this year, but it was through my university's research laboratory. Don't underestimate what your university can give you

[thin rain]

u still in cmu?

[muted bridge]

I didn't get admitted into cmu, I only did a high school program for them. I'm actually at penn state

[thin rain]

thats nice

did u find it more efficient to learn from home or at uni? like program wise

[muted bridge]

If I'm real the professors can be really trash but I definitely wouldn't be able to do this without a degree as a roadmap

[thin rain]

wym roadmap

there are a ton of good road maps online ngl

[muted bridge]

you have to follow a pretty strict set of courses to graduate, I'm saying it helps to be held accountable via an academic institution

Ideally you wouldn't need a degree to get a job but 99% of people don't have the self motivation to grind for years on-end

[thin rain]

did u say that right "wouldnt need a degree to graduate"?

[muted bridge]

whoops

[smoky quest]

this is technically correct since you obtain said degree upon graduation

[thin rain]

lmaoo

[muted bridge]

GRANTED a big part of the challenge is adjusting to the job market you once weren't a part of, but it's pretty hard to get that sort of experience without trial by fire

[harsh river]

you don't need a degree to get a job in SWE / CS but it makes things a lot easier

[smoky quest]

emphasis on A job, like any job. Not necessarily the same job

[thin rain]

im still wayy too early to land a job i just started coding a week ago but i'd say im ahead of most people that would've started with me since i've been coding for like 6-7 hours daily

[thin rain]

lol

i wanna focus on building my github profile i think thats a big thing in this industry

[muted bridge]

tons of people don't start coding unil college

[smoky quest]

Right now, focus on learning, not your portfolio

what you will build when you graduate will dwarf what you do today

[thin rain]

ofc i mean like in the future when im actually able to write code

u reckon if i get good enough i can land a job while getting my degree?

[smoky quest]

yeah, you don't want to peak in HS

[thin rain]

like a entry level job

[smoky quest]

anything is possible, with different degree of plausibility

[thin rain]

thing is im not in the us so i need something remote lol which is gonna make it like 100 times harder

[smoky quest]

entry level jobs means competing with people who have just graduated. So that means that you, someone still in school, can compete with people who have completed their studies

[harsh river]

why do you need a remote job?

[thin rain]

trust me i was slobbing my teens a week ago

[thin rain]

its not a need more of a there's no jobs here in lebanon

[smoky quest]

time to lock in

[harsh river]

fair

[thin rain]

specially entry level

like i looked and the lowest i could find was "5 years of coding and atleast a bachelors in cs/mathematics or anything relative to that"

[smoky quest]

worth looking at quatar, uae, etc.

[thin rain]

yea uae , qatar and saudi are really worth a shot

[smoky quest]

100% of the lottery winners did play lottery

[thin rain]

maybe even iraq those guys barely speak english im pretty sure there's a deficit in coders there

[smoky quest]

doesn't feel like part of the same tier

[thin rain]

the sky's the limit

[fringe sphinx]

https://github.blog/news-insights/octoverse/octoverse-2024/ talks about growth of github usage in developing countries, for example: "The United Arab Emirates is also a region to watch, as it recently committed to becoming a global leader in AI and advanced technology and saw a 32% year-over-year increase in developers on GitHub."

[vapid jay]

Hi everyone, I got quite another question. Is there a way to earn some money from python with the basics itself? Like doesn't matter about amount, just a bit of money? Like online

[peak halo]

Nope. Why would someone pay you to do something that you found out how to do in a few hours?

[grave solstice]

technically an internship could qualify as this?

[grave solstice]

so get an online internship xD

But best bet for you is to find some work on a platform like fiverr i guess. but it is highly competetive

[peak halo]

Sure, but it sounds like they were asking about freelancing ("Like online")

[near ocean]

Internships are for university students

[peak halo]

what would anyone on fiverr be willing to pay for that you can do with "just the basics"?

[distant stag]

Hi i am a teenager there are any jobs for
My age?

[vapid jay]

Isn't it very hard to get an internship with python?

[peak halo]

Probably not; the fastest way to start making money would be to get into a computer science degree program and to get an internship over the summer.

[peak halo]

You need to be a university student to get one, but I think most computer science students get one.

[vapid jay]

What if I am selftaught, is it impossible?

[grave solstice]

definitely not the fastest...

[peak halo]

What would be a faster way that is likely to actually work? because fiverr is not likely to work.

[near ocean]

It is the fastest

[grave solstice]

Depends on the person, for me the material was to slow so i selftaught

Getting a degree imo is mostly to get contacts / internships.

[peak halo]

what kind of programming are you paid to do, and what country are you in?

[heady crescent]

Tkinter Designer, PyQt5/PySide2 with Qt Designer, Kivy Designer, wxFormBuilder, Glade, PySimpleGUI, or AppJar
can u tell me what is best to start with. im just on making interface for my programs that were on command line interface

[grave solstice]

Currently maintaining and setting up a datawarehouse and maintaining an ERP. ERP is python based. In belgium.

[peak halo]

to make sure I'm following: are you asking me a new question that is not related to the message that you replied to?

[grave solstice]

Noone cares about your piece of paper saying you went to school for X,Y,Z if you can show them that they need you

[heady crescent]

i didnt reply but asked

[near ocean]

You say that but you still went and got your piece of paper

[grave solstice]

I did not

[near ocean]

You literally just said

[peak halo]

I inferred from that that they dropped out.

[grave solstice]

I looked at the curriculumn for the couple of years and i personally didn't think it was for me

[potent flax]

isnt school mainly needed to teach you how to program and stuff like that?

[peak halo]

setting aside whether or not the knowledge you get from a university education is worth the price, a lot of companies will filter applicants who do not have a degree, to get the applicant pool down to a manageable size.

[grave solstice]

No, You can learn that all yourself. again it depends on what type of person you are imo

[potent flax]

as far as i know some jobs require a collage/ uni degree and some sort of proof that you know how to do those things from personall projects or no? i dont know alot about that stuff since im still in highschool

[grave solstice]

I think (i do not have experience in this) this would only apply for junior roles.

Instead of going to uni i started freelancing and by doing such i had the experience to not go in as a junior.

[near ocean]

How did you land any gig freelancing when theres people doing it for 1/10 of the price and without any networking

[digital fjord]

university is there to give you some basic overview what exists in the field, and provide some structure. You will end up learning independently at uni for at least the bachelors thesis/whatever capstone project, and probably just in general.

[grave solstice]

For me it was finding a niche that did the trick

[peak halo]

if you somehow get n years of experience without a degree, the degree might not matter. my company requires a degree for all technical positions, full stop.

[grave solstice]

Last time i checked the FAANG companies also did not care about any degree. Why would they? All they care about is finding the best people.

[digital fjord]

It is possible to do software freelancing effectively even in countries with high COL, I do know a couple people like that.

[near ocean]

Juniors?

[fringe sphinx]

When did you check? That's never been true.

[peak halo]

I don't know where you're getting that; top tech companies get so many applications that they have to filter on hard requirements just to get to a number of resumes that a human can parse.

[digital fjord]

It does require a greater degree of skill than your avg junior position.

[near ocean]

Juniors of greater degree of skill than avg probably (definitely) dont ask in discord for help getting a career
Its irresponsible to suggest a path that wont work for them ever

[digital fjord]

that is fair

[grave solstice]

I know this isnt representative, but this is one of the first (of many) results i found:
https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestionsEU/comments/o126nd/can_you_join_faang_without_a_degree/?rdt=60973

[fringe sphinx]

"reddit" isn't a source of any truth. Not even going to click.

[grave solstice]

Apart from that, why would you limit yourself to 1 group of people?

[fringe sphinx]

If you want to discuss, we can discuss, but most people who make this argument don't want to discuss it... they just want to assert it.

[near ocean]

You have to limit somehow and a degree is a good one

[fringe sphinx]

My usual challenge is: Go find some job postings for a FAANG SWE position that doesn't say: "bachelors required".

[grave solstice]

I mean you are the one contradicting me without providing any proof

[fringe sphinx]

Fine, but you're asserting something with no proof either. I don't want to argue, but: my years of experience as a hiring manager tell me that - highly selective jobs will use degree as one of the first filter criteria.

I've working in big tech, startups and small tech. The only time I hired non-degree candidates was during 2015-2017ish when the number of candidates was exceptionally low.

[grave solstice]

Personal question, do you agree with using a degree as first filter criteria?

imo there are enough examples of great minds that did not get a degree due to different cirumstances

[fringe sphinx]

Yes, in my experience (and no offense to anyone): non-degree entry SWE candidates are higher risk than those with degree. Whether it's maturity or knowledge or what, none of them have worked out for me. Although, I've only hired a handful, so perhaps I'm just a bad interviewer.

(note that I said: "entry")

I have worked with senior engineers without degrees who were exceptional. My first mentor was.

[grave solstice]

Not trying to personally attack you or anything btw.

I only know about my personal experience and its actually insightful to hear this from you

[fringe sphinx]

Ok, sorry to be defensive... we get a few people who come in here and just want to assert something with no experience, rather than at least hear our perspective/experiences.

[potent flax]

is there a really big difference between a collage IT degree and a university IT degree? (even if a collage/university IT degree exists)

[trim musk]

Pybot

[digital fjord]

I've also seen cases where people at my uni got an internship, and then just decided to drop out and work full time at that position. Usually happens for more niche topics which are just not represented at all in the further classes.

[vapid jay]

Is there something I can learn in a month, to start earn some basic money? Like small side jobs?

[grave solstice]

No worries, was just making sure we were on the same page 🙂

Back on topic though, I agree that the average dev / swe SHOULD get a degree. Especially if you have no issue with going to school or anything. It will land you a higher paying job initially + more easily.

However on the other hand, if you know of yourself that you can do it without getting a degree, i feel like it should be supported more.

You are able to get a quicker start at the mid part of your life, you can often excell in what you really like, ...

[next plover]

Just make connections in your area, I also hate that degrees are the barrier of entry but I've gotten an internship and won't need to get anything higher than a associates

[fringe sphinx]

FAANG is complicated. FAANG is even more selective than most companies. Because of the prestige (and pay), top candidates will aim for FAANG... and FAANG can bias their interviews to candidates from top tier schools: most entry level resumes are fairly indistinguishable, with the simplest filter being education & school.

[near ocean]

How do you know if youre capable of doing these things? The average 18-21yo definitely doesnt have what it takes to even make this judgement call

[grave solstice]

You do know if you are one of those people imo

[fringe sphinx]

That doesn't mean you get the job... it just means they need some simple way to pick the "top resumes" from a pile of otherwise identical resumes.

[near ocean]

Those people dont ask on discord though, like I said earlier

[fringe sphinx]

There is a path to success without a degree. But, an entry SWE job in FAANG is probably not one of them.

[digital fjord]

One thing to consider is that you could excel in uni as well. If you already have knowledge in the field, the mandatory classses take fairly little time, so you can take full advantage of the networking options at uni (research project with a company, internships, just straight up doing research on the cutting edge of your chosen field). If you get a good uni, you have access to world class experts in their fields, which is not something you can really get elsewhere.

[grave solstice]

I think this could fall in line with my reasoning of higher pay initially.

It will take you longer to get to the same level as someone that did get the degree (sadly) but then again, you have a chance to speed up that process by starting earlier.

[harsh river]

However on the other hand, if you know of yourself that you can do it without getting a degree, i feel like it should be supported more.

the problem is that the kruger dunning effect is a thing

[grave solstice]

idk what you mean, sorry

[near ocean]

It means if someone is in here asking for advice then they most likely arent that person who could pull off the no degree path, so you shouldnt recommend it or present it in a positive manner

[grave solstice]

I 100% agree with that, that is my mistake

[fringe sphinx]

For what it's worth, I don't know if I agree with that reasoning. The "asking" and "able to pull it off" seem orthogonal.

[potent flax]

is there like a huge differance between universities and collages for IT? as far as i know universities cost more money to be in than collages especially in my country but correct me if im wrong im not an expert on these things and i would like to know a bit more since i will have to choose in basically 2 years whenever i finish highschool

[fringe sphinx]

What country are you in?

[grave solstice]

I should be more carefull when talking about not going to uni. as this chat could be very influential to people, and the last thing i want to happen is for someone to not go to uni because of something they read online.

You will know yourself if you should or shouldn't go. If you don't, you should go

[warped root]

guys, i need help, i am wondering if its possible that i insert a usb into a computer and it automaticly copies all files / word files and document files and put it in the usb and i remove usb and thats it

[potent flax]

Lithuania

as far as i looked on the internet universities cost more than collages

[near ocean]

A good example is people asking about quants in here, the type of people that end up becoming quants already have a life plan laid out and dont need to ask discord randos about it, theyre neck deep in textbooks in Cambridge libraries and preparing for olympiads

[harsh river]

the difference between universities and college is largely dependent on the country IME

in my country universities are the same thing as colleges

[warped root]

^

[digital fjord]

I would expect differences between individual schools to matter more than the category of institution, but that is something someone in your country can answer best.

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, fair, but sometimes it's some young-ish teen who is trying to understand career paths... really hard to say.

[harsh river]

you're in the wrong channel, ask in offtopic #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval , #ot1-perplexing-regexing , #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

[next plover]

A virus? Wrong channel

[grave solstice]

I should get back to work now . Thank you for the discussion, i have learned some new things from your position 🙂

[potent flax]

if you dont mind me asking what is an IME?

[near ocean]

"in my experience"

[potent flax]

oh honestly never seen that abbreviation before

also do companies prefer more people who know C++ java or python languages? or is there no real difference since i picked to learn python in my highschool IT classes

[harsh river]

a good SWE will adapt and be able to use any language that the task at hand neccesitates

[near ocean]

Companies prefer people who know the languages they use for the tools/product they have and it all depends on your local market

[potent flax]

ah, i was learning C++ in like 10th grade but the language is not really for me and thats why i picked python since it seems simpler to use overall

[random grotto]

Hey everyone.. i don't have any programming background . I have just started learning python . If I give 3-5 hrs everyday .. what kind of jobs can I get after like 6 to 7 months

[deft herald]

This sounds harsh but...
retail & food service

[random grotto]

😂😭

[deft herald]

Do you have any formal education?

[random grotto]

I have formal education in economics

[deft herald]

a degree?

[random grotto]

Yup

[fringe sphinx]

Economics + a little coding: look at data analysis and financial analysis roles with financial institutions... especially the smaller ones like the smaller hedge funds.

[random grotto]

How much months can it take me to learn python knowing that I have normal functioning brain and 3 to 5 hrs time to invest everyday

[fringe sphinx]

Impossible to answer.

Partly because; 'learning python' isn't some binary thing. It's a multi-dimensional space with ill-defined dimensions.

[random grotto]

Hmmmmmmmmm

[fringe sphinx]

The shorter answer is: Lots of perfectly normal people learn the basics of Python within a relatively short time (a few months?). That's not enough for a job, of course: what you do next is up to you.

[deft herald]

Since you already have a degree, your chances are much higher though (than someone with no degree obv.)

[random grotto]

Yea I think . I can get some paid internships or part time job after like 7-8 months

[deft herald]

Yeah if you can apply that to your economics knowledge, you'll have somewhat of a niche you can dig into

[deft herald]

You typically need to be enrolled in a degree program to get an internship

[fringe sphinx]

Why set the bar so low? An econ degree is quite valuable.

[random grotto]

Yup I wish to get masters .. so I have time between it ..so thinking of learning python and getting something to earn and have experience on resume

[random grotto]

Man , so nice of you to be so optimistic and hopeful for me .. but india has huge population 😂😭

[deft herald]

you could get a masters in CS or data science

[random grotto]

I am thinking of MS in economics or Quantitative economics

[deft herald]

cool

It should be relevant to the career that you wish to have though

[random grotto]

Yuppp .do u know some courses online for me to pursue. Which kinda have python for data science or finance

[fringe sphinx]

https://kaggle.com/learn has some good beginner data courses

[random grotto]

I think so . Finance came from economics . So it may help me

[random grotto]

Oh man it has everything.... so good
. It looks beginner to more to advance side too . Thanks so much for sharing.. I think it is free too

[fringe sphinx]

Most important: when you get stuck, ask for help in #python-discussion

[random grotto]

Yup. You know i have started with cs50 python introduction course . But i thought it is beginner course and then what afterwards.

What do python programmers think of that course?

[fringe sphinx]

CS50 is a good program for people who like "structured" courses. I think for people like you, with a degree, it's a good idea. Some younger learners might want something less structured.

There's also CS50 for AI, a good follow-up course that'll introduce some ML/AI concepts. Still beginner level but good stuff.

[astral fable]

What software do u suggest that I can utilise for my portfolio?

[fringe sphinx]

github

[astral fable]

How do I make and design it on GitHub tho?

[near ocean]

You use github to store code and host a simple frontend only site if you want to

[pallid viper]

I work in construction and am getting a bit sick of it, would be nice to learn python and maybe discover a better pathway…. 😦 think I made the mistake of not going to uni

[vapid jay]

Believe in yourself ✨️

[wanton birch]

How much free time do you get after work? You can try to use that to give it a go. At least try learning about software, hardware and python etc. I know plenty of university educated people struggling to pay the bills. If construction is doing that for you, that is actually a good thing. Personally, I think the average construction person is way more productive than the average person who knows python. But that is just me.

[autumn karma]

You have nothing to fear. This industry hires nurses, plant ecologists, and even circus jugglers. (No, I'm not making any of that up.) I, on the other hand, began coding when I was 10, have a Master's in Computer Science and a Ph.D. in Physics from two of the world's top universities, and remain unemployed despite literally hundreds of applications to software companies. This industry is for you, not for the miserable likes of me. 🙂

[fringe sphinx]

The tech industry is big, and there are many types of jobs in it. Some jobs are easier entry points than others. Take a moment to learn or ask about the types of jobs, and look at job postings on LinkedIn, to understand the landscape

[dusk flume]

I don't think that's encouraging, how good you are yet how hard it is to land a job. 💀

[fringe sphinx]

I'm not sure that was a serious post.

[autumn karma]

Can you say more?

[fringe sphinx]

About what?

[autumn karma]

About your last comment

[fringe sphinx]

Not sure what you're asking.

[smoky quest]

feel free to post an anonymous version of your resume for review and feedback

[autumn karma]

What's the point? I've been unemployed so long that the gap itself can now be used to justify the rejections. That's the beauty of self-fulfilling prophecies.😉

[fringe sphinx]

Like I said, not a serious comment.

[smoky quest]

You can't win if you don't play

[nocturne dune]

come on man just start listing your own projects then..

[calm stratus]

Anyone know the best way to learn Python? Something that's free ik basics but I missed a lot of stuff and wanna re learn everything

[rugged plume]

Harvard's CS50 Python course on YouTube is a good free beginner resource to get started. The "Automate the boring stuff with Python" book I'm pretty sure is free to view somewhere on the web

[thin rain]

i'd say "python crash course" is better ngl

[rugged plume]

Maybe, but I haven't heard of that one tbh so went with one I knew

[calm stratus]

Alr I'll try both thanks

[bronze hedge]

Trying to get out of the dead end jobs as well.
I bought 100 days of python course from udemy and been heavily practicing for the last few months.
Trying to land a job by this time next year.
Is boot.dev a good option for learning backend dev for Python.
It's a bit pricey but if it's worth it I don't mind.

Trying to figure out what I should focus on. Backend, machine learning or other.
Backend seems the most reasonable though for me after talking with another dev here.

[pine sleet]

You don’t have to focus on anything in particular, being a generalist can be good. But I’d say definitely don’t focus too much on classes and roadmaps, projects are far more valuable just in terms of resume content and actually learning

[bronze hedge]

@pine sleet Thank you for the reply.
Hmm I was told there are not many jobs as a generalist python dev, especially when starting out.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by not focusing too much on classes and roadmaps?
So my portfolio is far more valuable for my resume is what you're saying?

[harsh river]

yes, having demonstrable skills via projects / portfolio is very important

[bronze hedge]

Ok bet.
What are your guys top 3 projects in your portfolios? If I may ask of course

[pine sleet]

if you're a "generalist," you'll probably have an easier time finding jobs and fitting into whatever role since you'd be quite flexible and adaptable, rather than if you just limited yourself to one language or framework or whatever. courses and roadmaps aren't really that great, projects are far better as you'll learn a lot more and how different things are useful in the real world

if you're going to do courses, they should be like university courses and not "learn python in 12 hours" or "learn react in 12 hours"

[bronze hedge]

@pine sleet well I know arm asm and some python right now.
Not trying to increase my learning curve by adding more languages right now.
I understand that simple courses don't really do much at all.
The 100 days of python has actually helped to the point I am now writing my own code without looking anything up. Which is how it happened with arm asm for me.
I had to learn asm to understand why and how a computer even works.
I couldn't be a script kitty from what I was told. My mind wouldn't let me.
I see what you mean though.
And I appreciate the advice.

I have built some stuff as well.
But I don't count any that I had help from chatgipity. As in it wrote most the code with me fixing where it messes up and gluing everything together. I got rather far in my gba CPU emulator, and my visual chip 8 emulator based on VisUAL Arm emulator is almost done.
Have quite a bit more as well.
Even tools I use.

But again those are in my learning portfolio not my resume portfolio.

This is also why I ask what are any of your guys top portfolio projects that helped get you a job in the industry.

[harsh river]

. I got rather far in my gba CPU emulator, and my visual chip 8 emulator based on VisUAL Arm emulator is almost done.

that seems like a worthy project to have in your portfolio

This is also why I ask what are any of your guys top portfolio projects that helped get you a job in the industry.
my networking and contributions to OSS projecs is rather what got me a job vs a porfolio, though i guess the contributions are a portfolio in and of itself

[knotty oar]

How is Rust? Is anyone here using it? Does it have a future? I want to learn it but not sure if it will benefit...your opinions are what i am looking for

[odd cairn]

Rust is quite good , there is not much hype around it so it's really that too competitive

[knotty oar]

@odd cairn are you using it? If so what is your use case

[plush summit]

not much hype? there is quite a lot lol

[odd cairn]

When I mean hype I mean it in comparison

[odd cairn]

I don't use it got an interview for it though I declined but it's a very profitable language to learn

[knotty oar]

Is it worth the hype?

[odd cairn]

That's something to also consider I would say yes but not a big yes

[buoyant seal]

i am just eyeing Rust from afar, but hesitating to approach for its using 🙂
interested in it a bit

• because linux friendly, modern language with highly likely easy cross compiling capabilities. With things like unit testing out of a box.
• has pretty web related stuff like yew/leptos to build web front with wasm related tech in a mature way looks like

not wishing to use for now because:

• it does not looks like the most productive language so far. Its complexity and memory management situation make it as far as i see rather complicated.
• and as far as i see language/ecosystem currently experience rapid feature bloat that potentially make quite awkward quickly. There is a level of instability in its community regarding the Rust direction of development and stuff like that

i made decision not to attempt learning Rust, at least until i saw level of its support approaching similar level to how well Golang is supported. (I expect good level of support at least on the level of common observability solutions provided)
The pragmatic side of what i could do with Rust is not significantly expanding for me over the other choices so far tbh (like Rust is not having usage cases i need it for), that makes me hesitant to ever learn for now.

I chose for now

• Python to continue using for the niche of rapid dynamic typed language fitting to do scripting stuff... and used at work a lot anyway.
• Golang, as very highly productive language to implement the best solutions in terms of long term maintenance and quality
• Java world with eyeing Kotlin potentially, for its mature ecosystem for linux friendly development of backend, game development, desktop and even android, and all to build in high quality too.

Rust is not really expanding for me what i can do as a Web dev(Backend for me important first) or Devops engineer? The only thing it can do so far better than my other languages is building web front in wasm, but it is not strong enough reason for me to pick it for now.

At least among reasons i care about.
Learning smth in depth is a high level commitment for me. As i accept only All or Nothing 🙂 Rust is not so far looking like having enough advantages to pay the cost for its learning and maintenance for me.
And i have a large amount of tech on my plate by being commited to Cloud server infrastructure madness and all related infra languages associated to it in addition.
I am regretfully only a human with lifespan limitations and in general time limits of how much i can do

[buoyant seal]

hubt — 09/22/2022
i warn everyone that wants to be in AI/ML: you spend a huge amount of time on data validation, cleanup, and analysis. and generally a lot less time than you'd think on the actual AI/ML part. unless your company has very mature data management and data pipelines(very few companies do), expect to spend a lot more time on data engineering than AI/ML
Consider making for yourself foundation into job role of Data Engineering, or Data Science in general (i heard about Data Analyst roles)
The things people say makes me assuming that for 1 AI dev, 4+ data engineers are needed. So... looks like logical to invest into data engineering for example.
May be makes sense to check other Data science related job roles, how much of their vacancies are present in your market. They are highly close to all AI anyway.

[fringe sphinx]

First step is making sure your resume is good. You can share your resume here (anonymized) for review, if you want.

[austere badge]

Hello, I am a Software Engineer with close to 2 years of experience. I feel like I have left the realm of a Junior Engineer but don't think I am a mid-level Engineer.
I have worked with Python (Flask, Pandas, Selenium (scraping)), PHP (Laravel), JavaScript/Typescript (Express, React, NextJS) both on existing projects and starting new ones.
I think I am quite lacking in terms of structuring code needing multiple refactors before I reach what I consider acceptable quality.
I am looking for suggestions on how I can improve.

[buoyant seal]

Code quality is impossible without good unit testing. Learn it good and it will solve both code quality to "acceptable" level, and it will allow you to refactor code to its better code structure.
When the code is unit testable, u have 3-10 times better ability to change it
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#TestDrivenDevelopmentByExample
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#UnitTestingPrinciplesPracticesandPatterns

There are books to learn about code architecture further, and learning how to type things to enforce code architectural decisions and rearrange code even easier, but i'll avoid mentioning it in order to avoid overwhelming.

The unit testing is especially important for any backend related code. The dynamic typed language nature, plus the backend nature of interacting with leaky database abstractions makes unit testing the only means to ensure passable enough quality

Good unit testable code also has properties of a better structure usually by its nature. Unit testing strongly facilitates writing better in quality code in all its aspects

To have the best time using unit testing, make sure you configured comfortable visual debugger to run right from inside unit tests. Makes easy to test/check code on a breakpoint from inside of unit test if necessary. and easier observing the stuff that happens

[austere badge]

Thank you. I have written tests both unit and feature for new projects. It's the existing projects that I have issue writing tests for. the code is usually tightly coupled with design patterns violated everywhere. I wonder if you know any resources for those kinds of situations.

[buoyant seal]

https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#HeadfirstDesignPatterns
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#CleanArchitectureACraftsmansGuide
those two books helped me regarding code architectural stuff at least. First one just made my mind more flexible to operate it at basic level but the second helped me having high overview of a app code structure

the compliment really well learned unit testing, as they help being more concious regarding rearranging code

[buoyant seal]

It's the existing projects that I have issue writing tests for. the code is usually tightly coupled with design patterns violated everywhere. I wonder if you know any resources for those kinds of situations.
in this specific case... you are also in the water of a need to maximize refactoring previously bad code pretty much. If it is not unit tested, then it is shitty code usually.
Commonly Refactoring By Martin Fowler is the most recommended book to read eventually for that. it is written with Java examples though. Best if u already got good grasp of at minimum what are design patterns in static typed languages, and figured out what is interface and abstract classes in your used languages like python
The Clean architecture book mentioned above gives recommendations regarding approaching smelly code too though

[digital fjord]

Working Effectively with Legacy Code is the usual recommendation there, it's about exactly this.

[austere badge]

unfortunately, most existing projects I work on are in JavaScript. but, I'll start with the books you recommended. I am being onboarded on a new project this week. I'll see if I can learn and implement these things as I go

[buoyant seal]

thanks for advice. Never seen someone mentioned it before. Reviews look good to read for sure 😉

[burnt sky]

Hello guys, I am new to the programming world.

I want to know just by learning python and making some projects really help me to get in a job?

[rugged plume]

You'll also need good interview skills as well.

[buoyant seal]

Hehe, considering how in real world... devs pretty much allllll the time work with legacies only. Looks like a book must have to read.
Definitely moving to somewhere in the beginning of a reading queue to go through it

[astral fable]

Guys I discontinued my python classes to save money (and plus u can legit learn it online) so can anyone suggest some channel in YouTube from which I can learn?

Like there are these simple 30 part series playlists uploaded I wanna know which is the best?

Esp if it hasn’t been taught in school and u want to get a head start

[burnt sky]

@astral fable u can search it on YouTube there are multiple channels that teach you python but as for my search the free code camp channel is best.

[raw summit]

Yall, I'm an Google Software Engineer from NYC that's earning 358k per year, I wanted to ask If it's a good idea for me To buy an Office at the Empire State building.

[astral fable]

Also guys can I ask financial advice too rather than just career advice here?

[azure heart]

Please do not ping moderators unless there's an issue with the server or its members

[astral fable]

K got it I’m sorry

[radiant vortex]

You've been here long enough to know this isn't the place for these antics

[fringe sphinx]

You should research the types of jobs in the tech industry. Theres many jobs with varying requirements.

[raw summit]

...

[raw summit]

Everywhere I go yall say "NO OFF TOPIC SUBJECTS HERE🤓 ", like where tf am I supoosed to go.

[radiant vortex]

!ot

[inner wren]

Off-topic channel

#ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[raw summit]

This is a career-talking section

[radiant vortex]

Yes, not an estate talking section

[raw summit]

Define career.

Nice timing for Googlin I guess.

...

Jayy is typing... @radiant vortex

[astral fable]

Yea thanks, I just saw their work, impressive stuff, my only issue is I’m looking for a channel that helps me learn madplotlib, openCV and NLTK library..

[vapid violet]

Matplotlib has a bunch of examples on their website

[astral fable]

I wanted some videos they help me learn much better

[vapid violet]

Context: I am a 1st semester university student in the US with no work experience. I am planning on applying for summer internships in CS related fields.
Any feedback on my resume would be appreciated!

[white relic]

This looks pretty sound. The layout is good and the content is like what I would look for in an internship candidate, better than most tbh.
I wouldn't bother including coursework because your projects already demonstrate learning on par or better than intro cs classes.
I think I'd pick a different font, and use font size / style rather than the Project: ... Objective: ... labels to headline those sections, maybe play around with spacing a little, but that's mostly very minor things.

[static pagoda]

hmmm , in which area do you want to do intern in ?

[vapid violet]

Thank you!

[vapid violet]

As a first year student I know it is unlikely to get an internship but I still am going to try.
I am ok with pretty much any CS related field except web development (IE jobs that require JS)
Software Engineering, Data science, AI/ML, working with APIs, creating scripts to automate tasks.

[white relic]

It is less likely compared to 2nd and 3rd year students but definitely worth trying. You have a good portfolio for a freshman. May I ask what country you are in?

[vapid violet]

United States, also I dont know how many internships want transcripts but I do have about a years worth of credits that I was able to transfer in from duel enrollment/advanced placement courses.

[astral fable]

I like how your taking the effort towards applying it tho

[vapid violet]

I have been told it is good practice if anything.

[white relic]

It's a good thing to have in case, but I wouldn't put it on the résumé.

Broad advice: apply to local and smaller companies as well as big national ones. Everybody is always trying to get internships at FAANG

[astral fable]

FAANG is only present in US or they have other branches?

[vapid violet]

Yeah, the problem is finding the local ones 😅 you have to do quite a bit of digging, at least for the ones local near me

[white relic]

Big companies have international subsidiaries and/or affiliates they do business through. So you might get a job at Bigco India but it is an Indian company run locally, not necessarily like working for Bigco in the US.

Usually.

[astral fable]

Good to know

[white relic]

Additionally, be open to things that aren't tech companies. In many cities the biggest employer of technical expertise might be the school district or the hospital system.
I had one internship at an embroidery factory.

The advantage of big companies is that they're more likely to have an established system and experience handling internships.

[astral fable]

@deft herald do you know how I can search for reliable internships online (which are also not too expensive) because my school sent some for $ 1633.54

They were companies present locally here in Middle East

[white relic]

In STEM in the US, you get paid for internships, or you're getting ripped off

[astral fable]

But aren’t internships not meant to pay?

[vapid violet]

My school district IT was messed up XD
I applied to google STEP as that would be a great learning experience. But yeah I will look at other places looking for IT/CS services that are not IT/CS companies

[white relic]

depends on the field, but generally speaking, software/tech-oriented internships are paying jobs in the West.

Paying for experience makes it more of a boot camp and for $1600 you should be getting instructor led training, customized feedback, impressive portfolio projects, and career placement assistance at least

[astral fable]

But fr tho am I allowed to cuz I can’t find anything on it in rules?

[fringe sphinx]

Just ask the question, will let you know if it's completely off topic but we allow a pretty broad set of topics here.

[shut copper]

Are there any recommended boot camps people endorse here? I recently applied to a job and the response was that I would struggle (statistically) compared to applicants since I don’t have a degree or bootcamp certificate 🥹

[raw summit]

WDYM?

[near ocean]

It means this isnt a shitposting channel

[raw summit]

TF, are you talking about?

[raw summit]

I ain't no shitposting

[harsh river]

you were already caught lying about your job, claiming to be a certain level at FAANG that doesn't even exist, we aint stupid

[raw summit]

People just don't want the Truth these days.

[raw summit]

What???????????????

[near ocean]

I dont care guy, take it to offtopic

[raw summit]

Who tf are you btw?

[raw summit]

Bros acting like that he lives with me and knows everything scumbag

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384> its time

[raw summit]

<@&831776746206265384> It's time to shine.

[leaden jasper]

!mute 973238532929896558 2D Nope. Take a break and re-read our code of conduct. Adjust your behavior if you'd like to stay in this server.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied timeout to @raw summit until <t:1732205996:f> (2 days).

[wispy creek]

Hey guys, are python certificate a plus to get a job as a python developer? if so which kind of certificate?

[near ocean]

They don't matter that much but better than absolutely nothing

[wispy creek]

So what make you stand out if you are entry level

[harsh river]

demonstrable skills, projects.

[woven apex]

a degree

[harsh river]

i assume if they were asking for certificates they want to avoid the degree route

[near ocean]

Too bad we dont have stats on people who avoid the degree path and then never find a job in tech

[woven apex]

truly a shame

[fringe sphinx]

Equally, many who get a STEM degree and go into non-tech role

[wispy creek]

I mean getting a degree is great and all but it takes a longtime and they just teach things you can find on the internet 😂😔

[fringe sphinx]

(Out of choice, not necessity)

[near ocean]

Its 3 or 4 years, its not your entire lifetime

[still condor]

it is, if you only live for 4 years

[near ocean]

Skill issue? Improve your time management skills

[fringe sphinx]

The main point is; you won't land the same opportunities without a degree. That's the tradeoff

[true harness]

there are things you can't get on the Internet. for example, being able to talk to clrs

[harsh river]

clrs?

[deft herald]

It'salso expensive as hell. But it is what it is

[near ocean]

Intro to algos people

[still condor]

how much it costs greatly depends on where you live tbh

[deft herald]

true. * in the US

[still condor]

in the US it may cost you an arm and a leg, in some countries you might get it for free (with a stipend on top)

[near ocean]

Student loans in the US aren't any worse than elsewhere

[fringe sphinx]

The problem with these conversations is: some people are lied to thinking that they can just self study and land the same jobs in less time.

[harsh river]

fake news.

[fringe sphinx]

Totally fine to make the decision and not pursue a degree, if you're informed about the tradeoffs involved. You can be successful, your path will just be different.

[harsh river]

||wdym that's exactly what i did /hj||

[wispy creek]

Yeah but you have to admit that the world of tech is growing fast and universities aren't keeping up with the trends

[fringe sphinx]

In less time?

[harsh river]

yes

[still condor]

At least here, it's not very common to go in debt to get an education (because that indeed puts you in a poor financial situation). If you're rich, you can pay to get into a better university with less effort. If you're not (or if you're just very smart), you just get into an okay university for free

[deft herald]

Sure. But a lot of the value you get from a degree is not "experience with the latest libraries"

[near ocean]

Is it? What is the average student loan debt and what is the average junior software dev salary?

[harsh river]

student loan debt varies from country to country.

[harsh river]

basically this ^

[deft herald]

There are other skills that are super critical in the workplace, such as written and communication skills

[still condor]

I got into a decent university for free. Didn't help me though, I dropped out because I'm not very smart (and other factors)

[fringe sphinx]

University isn't trade school. It's always been true that Uni is theory heavy and you need to self study the practical stuff.

[near ocean]

I did specify the US didnt I?

[harsh river]

"than elsewhere"

[near ocean]

Im in the UK, its worse in the UK

The average student loan debt in the US is $40.6k (https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-statistics), average junior software dev salary being $68.8k (https://www.indeed.com/career/junior-developer/salaries)

Compared to the UK where the student loan debt was £45.6k in 2023 (https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01079/) and average junior dev salary even lower

Uk devs will likely never repay their student loans

Go get a degree, there's little excuse

[radiant vortex]

I mean yeah, the goverment get rid of it after X amount of years

You don't really pay all of it

[near ocean]

It is written off after 30 years and until then it takes away 9% of your gross salary

[wispy creek]

And here I was thinking that I can get a way out using certificates to land a job in IT 😭

[near ocean]

I'd rather do US loans and US salaries and im sure literally everyone would, given the choice

[near ocean]

It would be extremely difficult and unlikely to happen, you want a degree

[harsh river]

depends, in IT? it's more likely, in SWE? not so much, it also depends on what IT means for you, in my country IT = SWE

[pine sleet]

IT as in support technician and similar roles are easier to get without a degree. Not a bad path to pivot into software engineering later down the road

[wispy creek]

I mean IT as in Cloud computing, Devops, Networking, Machine learning... but not necessary SWE

[harsh river]

Machine learning
one isn't quite like the others

[wispy creek]

What do you mean 🤔

[radiant vortex]

Not quite, https://www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan/what-you-pay

It's not of the gross but anything over the threshold

[near ocean]

sure, its still a lot of money over 30 years

way more than US peeps have to payback

[harsh river]

this guy dm'ed me to flex a stack of $20 and $1 bills to prove he makes 325k a year @ google

[near ocean]

same

[deft herald]

amazing

Ask him to show you his W2 instead

[astral fable]

I wanted to know mainly about budgeting and how to save money from ur first salary

I might start a part time job soon, and have even applied legally as I should in my country

[next plover]

if school isnt your thing, dont get a degree, but be prepared to work your ass off learning on your own time and network like a crazy person

if school is the bane of your existence id just go for a 2 year degree

but it really depends on where you live, the job market and who you know

[dusty fulcrum]

certificates, or even a degree, are less of a concern, but the knowledge you gained while getting them can be priceless. If you can get that same knowledge through self study or work experience, you should be fine as long as you can demonstrate it in an interview.

[next plover]

ive found having years of self motivated coding goes a looooooooong way, and a website to show all of my work

even though im interviewing for cybersecurity not SWE

showing that you can learn and motivate yourself is a huge plus, degree or not

one of the nice things about going to a community college is that i actually have the time to no-life projects and learning langauges instead of being swamped in 40hrs of homework each week

[pine sleet]

indeed, and that’s one of the reasons a degree is valuable for juniors - it shows that you spent 4 years learning difficult topics on your own for the most part

[next plover]

i dont know much about SWE but it seems way to competitive to not get a degree

[pine sleet]

but at the end of the day the self learning skills are what’s important, a degree is one way to demonstrate it. But like xelf said, if you can demonstrate those skills in any way that’s a good thing

[next plover]

ive had it explained to me by a senior cybersecurity guy where i live, he basically said 'a degree will get you past the canidate filtering, real experience will get you hired by me'

[pine sleet]

yeah pretty much

[next plover]

so if you dont get a degree, get a network and find people willing to say good things about you

or what im doing and get an internship in a completely unrelated field then slowly wiggle into the cybersecurity department

[true harness]

but how will you get experience 🕵️

[fringe sphinx]

That's really hard to say, because it depends a bit on your situation. But, start with thinking about your income and fixed expenses, and then consider how much of your surplus income you can allocate to discretionary vs savings. If you can, set a target each month and set it aside (in another savings account) so it's not immediately available. Just my two cents

[fringe sphinx]

It's a nice quip, but college grads rarely have experience, so: when I interview college grads, I'm looking for maturity, motivation, and just enough technical breadth / interest.

[next plover]

well he mentioned stuff like Hack the Box / TryHackMe and certificates as "hands on"

but yeah there's only so much "real world" experience you get in college

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, yah, that makes sense. Doing real things, agree 100%.

[vapid jay]

Hello

[errant lodge]

does future in blockchain development makes sense now?

[high coral]

if you want to have a future in blockchain development then you should learn how to write smart contracts

[limber crescent]

Alright I’m actually afraid of the future

Cuz of AI dominance over programming

U know it just makes me question that if I should dive deeper into a programming career

So like any of you have thoughts about this ?

[near ocean]

Where do you see dominance?

Maybe some simple use cases but AI really isnt building anything complex any time soon

[pine sleet]

ai is pretty bad at software engineering and will continue to be so for a long time

know its limitations and when to use it, and where it's good at and you'll be good

[limber crescent]

I’ve got this opinion from a few people and I’m really concerned about it

[near ocean]

Do these few people have actual software jobs?

[limber crescent]

Yup , but they also are seeing the AI industry growing

But that’s just a prediction

You maybe right about AI not building anything complex anytime soon

[hexed skiff]

How to become a hacker?

[rugged plume]

Learn Networking and Linux basics, then some programing like Python is useful. Afterwards learn Cybersecurity basics and then start hacking skills. Are you starting at zero or do you already have a tech job?

[hexed skiff]

I have zero experience

[viscid tusk]

Aloo

what does “$11.35 an hour + 20% on food sales tax” mean

[white relic]

is this career related?

[viscid tusk]

yes sorry I didn’t give context I just asked xd

I was offered a job with that pay and was wondering how much it would be as 11.35 an hour seems less than generous but it is still a job

[near ocean]

What kind of job and why would you get a sales tax

[viscid tusk]

Food Runner/Caddie at Top Golf

[rugged plume]

Then to get a job as a hacker its likely going to be a long route that'll take years. The few people I've spoken to started at the IT Helpdesk for basic tech experience, learned Networking & Linux to be come a Jr Network/Systems Admin afterwards picking up a few certs in the IT world. Then they learned their security basics and got into a SOC for Blue team cybersecurity then they started learning Ethical Hacking/Pentesting to pivot into the Red team to become a Ethical Hacker. Generally speaking it took them about 5 years to do it.

Ethical hacking is an advanced specialization within Cybersecurity which is a very competitive field so most tend to get in from other areas in Tech

[viscid tusk]

Ignore if it doesn’t fit this channel sorry 🙏 did not know where else to ask

[white relic]

that is confusing, I guess it's a commission type thing?

20% on food sales tax is a weird way to calculate commission though

[hexed skiff]

That's..very long no worries I have a long path I can do that at any time

[acoustic plaza]

Im having a debate with my friend about cs job market
Any help to disprove him?

[rugged plume]

What sides are each of y'all on?

[acoustic plaza]

Im on about how its bad bc most people do the bwre minimum by having a degree only and no work experience or projects and that its oversaturated due to the overhiring in the past.
My friend is just spamming tiktok videos of people saying its cooked

[rugged plume]

If he's just spamming videos at you then he has no interest in an actual conversation/debate tbh. Its low effort just to throw videos at people without expanding on his own thoughts

[acoustic plaza]

But am i wrong?

[deft herald]

Also it seems like you guys are kind of arguing the same thing?

[acoustic plaza]

Im just trynna save
A person isnt that "cooked" if they grind project and work experience alongside their degree

[deft herald]

Gotcha

[acoustic plaza]

But he thinks in general comp sci is bad
Bc he don't got knowledge of the situation

[open ivy]

I am de-prioritizing cold applications because the market is so hard. Humans don't make freinds that way.

[rugged plume]

IMO, the tech job market (Not just CS) is going through a hard time like you said it was oversaturated due to overhiring back in 2021-2022 and with all the layoffs happening at big tech companies, its starting to even out. Contributing to this is the economy isn't doing that great. Some countries are handling better than others, but its far from great.

To your point, you're correct that people are doing the bare minimum. Most people will tell others to have projects, blogs, YouTube channels, things to showcase your knowledge/experience and less than a tenth of the people told it will actually do that.

Contributing to people having a hard time getting a tech job is that they're using the exact same resume for the hundreds of positions they've applied for. They don't tailor their resumes for the jobs and in some cases people literally use bots to auto apply to jobs in LinkedIn/Indeed, which further saturates where the jobs have been posted for a day and already show 100+ applicants from LinkedIn which discourages more people.

Lastly, people need to stop holding what these tech "influencers" are saying on such a high pedestal as negative coverage will gain more clicks, and thus more money for them so its incentivized for them to be more negative. Some are good, of course. However given that you've said he's spamming you TikToks on it being bad means he's likely already in that negative cycle with his FYP reinforcing that.

[open ivy]

Projects should be fun as well. It's very hard to sustain high performance on skilled tasks we hate! And this game is a very slow game so endurance is paramount.

So if you are busy at work, and a project feels too much like work, try a project that is more distantly related but still ideally in programming. If work is overwhelming all energy, it can generally be dialed back without affecting performance (i.e. replacing 60 hours at 2/3 productivity with 40 at 100% productivity).

Blogs are good, as the writing in the blog is different than writing code. But it still synergizes.

I don't expect a blog to get attention on it's own. Instead, it is something to show any tech people you meet.

[autumn karma]

Does this Python Discord server have a place/channel in which people review each other's code and offer suggestions for improvement?

[peak halo]

Yes, just open a help thread (see #❓｜how-to-get-help), show all the code (either in the chat or as a link--just don't do a screenshot), and tag the thread with code review.

[autumn karma]

Thank you!

[strange pumice]

Ill say thats the onluy field where master is necessary unlike sodftware engineering

[autumn karma]

I'm afraid it says the original message was deleted. I'm sorry, I'm new to this. Any idea what I did wrong?

[strange pumice]

even a Phd might become needful, in the future.

like think of it, its not like software engineering, there is actual science and serious math invovles bachelor's Alone won't cut it.

[peak halo]

you can get a job in ML without a masters. I did. But I was only able to do it because I absolutely maxed out every opportunity I had to work on ML as an undergraduate. I also published an ML paper in an academic publication.

If you want to work in ML, you should plan to get a masters. It might be that you get a job offer in the summer between finishing your bachelors and starting the masters.

I would only get a masters degree in CS if it unlocks jobs that wouldn't be available to you without one. ML is the subdomain of CS where that is most likely to be the case.

[autumn karma]

Thanks for helping me post to python-help. It worked this time. Can I tempt you to look at the code? 🙂 Of course I understand if you're too busy right now...

[mental bough]

@jagged pebble how do u make a program where u can identify odds and evens

[autumn karma]

for n in ns: (newline and indent) print('odd' if n%2 else 'even')

[mental bough]

Oh thank u so much

[autumn karma]

For real, or are you being tongue-in-cheek? 🙂 I hope I didn't speak out of turn...

[mental bough]

Nope I am fr

Sounds like I am tho 😭
But I am not

[autumn karma]

How long have you been writing Python, if I may ask...?

[mental bough]

I started 2 months ago and I watched network chunk and then I left in a week cuz of procrastination

[autumn karma]

Sorry, what's network chunk?

[mental bough]

Man I started a lot of things like kali python and windows but procrastination got in the way
Networkchunk is a famous youtuber who teaches stuff about tech in interesting way

[autumn karma]

ok

[rugged plume]

Its Network Chuck but yes

Network Chuck is a Tech YouTuber who used to be a Network Engineer, learned some stuff about Cybersecurity, Docker, Python etc. And is/was a trainer on CBTNuggets which is a popular IT training service

[grave granite]

hi

[formal forum]

hi

[sly gulch]

How to cite in cover letter?

[white relic]

Cover letters don't usually need to cite sources.
If you have publications you want to mention on your CV/résumé, any common format (mla, etc.) is fine

[sly gulch]

so, how do I refer to papers in cover letters?
I just say what I did, but I don't have to say which paper I did my stuff?

[vapid jay]

hi can anyone help me with some python

[near ocean]

is it related to your career?

[peak halo]

Hello, please read #❓｜how-to-get-help

[astral fable]

Can I use Chat GPT to phrase and correct my grammatical errors in my emails to universities or do they check whether you’ve used it? Not for the main content but to correct few errors

[harsh river]

i would use grammarly instead.

[fringe sphinx]

But, can you? Of course. Just proof read it and keep phrasing simple. GPT often uses flowery language and excessively verbose phrases, which are very noticeable.

[potent kiln]

I learned python last month what should I do next any suggestions?

[fringe sphinx]

Practice by building projects. Ask for ideas in #python-discussion

[potent kiln]

alright thx

[white relic]

It would be typical to have a section for publications, and list the title, date and name of the publication for each entry.
Another way to do it is to include the information in your education or experience sections, wherever it fits, and just mention the publication there

[astral fable]

Is it better tho?

[harsh river]

Yes, it’s made exactly for what you’re asking whereas ChatGPT is general purpose

[deft herald]

!rule english

[inner wren]

Rules

4. Use English to the best of your ability. Be polite if someone speaks English imperfectly.

[south plank]

i would suggest not using Chat GPT since it can be very incorrect. the AI for Chat GPT (and others), as of right now at least, learns from each and every one of it's users and their speech patterns to "sound more human," teaching it to correct a sentence and/or paragraph, however, that can (and does) also teach it to purposefully spell something incorrectly. Grammarly isn't perfect, however, it's a better (and more academically approved) tool to use for emails/general work. Now if you wanted to change that sentence and rewrite it, check out sentencerewriter.net
I use that website to help strengthen my essays because i tend to be a bit repetitive with some words.

[lofty zephyr]

Those who enjoy their job using python, what do you do and how’d you get there?

[willow swift]

does anyone have anyone have any good course recommendations for learning python?

I want to choose coding as my future career path

[white relic]

I maintain test and design automation software for superconducting electronics.
I was a computer engineering major and I stumbled into this field more or less by accident. But there's a lot of data visualization and automation in about any scientific field.

[deft herald]

I also do test automation but for cellular (5G mostly) modems.

As for how i got here, I started out at Seagate doing writing self-test code for hard drives, then sort of morphed into a more test automation role

AMA about 5G spec 🙂

[modest panther]

If I want to build robots that go into space and mine the asteroid belts, is there a company I should apply to?

[peak halo]

I don't think this is a relevant place to find an answer to that question. but I suspect the technology that's needed for this is already known, and that there simply aren't enough asteroids with materials that could be profitably mined.

[foggy spade]

hi folks, i want to share a chrome extension i make to reach out to recruiters/managers. some key features:
-email finder on any linkedin profile
-outreach email generation based on resume and job description
-batch follow-up with all based on application
https://intouches.io

[modest panther]

Wut?!

[modest panther]

Wow way to go!

[astral fable]

Are you in US, if so apply for SpaceX lol

[deft plaza]

Hello everyone! Are Microsoft AI and Azure Architecture certifications worth it? I signed up for the free Microsoft Learn Ignite Edition and was wondering if it is worth my time If I aspire to be a SWE?

[pine sleet]

for swe specifically i don't see those two being particularly worth your time

[weak monolith]

Hi, I'm currently in my final semester and I've been learning Flask with python for quite some time now. I like the idea of working with servers and backend related stuff so I was wondering if you can get a job with my skills set, that being
Python, JS(beginner/intermediate), HTML, CSS and I'm also familiar with Java & C
Flask, bootstrap, FastAPI, NginX, Docker and Linux

Thanks

[buoyant seal]

https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#TestDrivenDevelopmentByExample
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#UnitTestingPrinciplesPracticesandPatterns
Get good with unit testing and high chance u will 🙂

Expand your knowledge further in software development core skills
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#CodeCompleteAPracticalHandbookofSoftwareConstruction

[buoyant seal]

Java is also backend worthy language, consider expanding your knowledge there

[weak monolith]

Yea I'm currently focusing on Python and C#(almost the same thing as Java)

[weak monolith]

Thank you

[buoyant seal]

Try to aim for Linux servers usage first (especially with your C#)
That will help to achieve nicer to live result with

Modern backend development uses only Linux
And preferably in docker containers
Ecosystem around it is all for easy automation and reproducibility. Controlling servers as a code and easy auto scaling in amount of machines with paying only for hardware and no licenses

Windows servers are for Mammoths 🦣 of the past

[weak monolith]

I see, when I say IK linux I'm mainly referring to my understanding of the file system, packages, navigating through the terminal, getting system health info, etc. I recently did start looking for resources for Ubuntu servers but there doesn't seem to be a proper course/tutorial that tells you what you should be doing. How would you start learning about servers if you were a beginner?

I thought having Nginx serve my static website on an Ubuntu server would be a great start

[buoyant seal]

C# last 5-10 shifted to be Linux friendlier, so it is feasible somewhat becoming. Today u can even develop it from Linux directly with multiple IDEs

[weak monolith]

That's great, my last sem is focused on C#

[buoyant seal]

Realistically python and Java is way better fitting Linux. C# is only catching up

[weak monolith]

Ah I see

[buoyant seal]

What u described we did in uni too.

Using Linux is more practical learning.
Start using servers at Hetzner to deploy smth
Use Linux as main OS to develop

And most importantly back devs should grasp docker good
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#DockerDeepDive
It will help not only for deployment, but also for testing and local development.
In a single command easy to raise specific database versions with it (postgresql docker hub to Google for commands for example)

Get used to docker compose there

[weak monolith]

Yea I've been using it as my daily OS for over a year now. And yes, I've been learning docker too

[buoyant seal]

U haven't mentioned SQL in your list. Good thorough learning of SQL with specifics to some common engine like Postgresql or Mariadb is essential for backend devs

[weak monolith]

I actually forgot to mention MySQL, SQlite and MongoDB(noob)
Anyway thanks again. Good day

[abstract coral]

What basic algorithms do i need to learn in order to become an intermediate level programmer?

[astral fable]

If ur referring to python then you should check out any online courses and YouTube channels as there are practically endless ways to learn python in todays world, code camp YouTube channel is a good place to start since they include a lot of concepts for intermediate level programming

[astral fable]

Also isn’t Linux bit old school tbh?

[buoyant seal]

Nope. Modern server infrastructure is fully dominated by Linux for 98%+
Docker, Kubernetes and other container scheduling systems, Cloud providers, and etc they are all made to work with Linux first
You wish to rent server? most will provide linux only 😉 Windows servers is luxury available only in some of them and very expensive

Linux license is free making it perfect to autoscale horizontaly in any amount of machines, treating them as cattle and creating and destroying on need

You wish to use CI like Github Actions? Runners will be Linux by default too. Windows is some paid option hidden there

[buoyant seal]

We could say though... that using Linux Manually. is somewhat old school too 😄 (which we use usually only in pet projects and home lab)
bleeding edge infrastructure migrated to container scheduling systems that use Linux underneath but it is pretty much abstracted away.
We just need to build our docker container, and the cluster will define on its own at which server to run or how to scale it
and all is defined as infrastructure as a code. No manual clicks, infra is code too versioned via git

[astral fable]

Ohhh got it

I’m more of a Mac user but sounds interesting

[buoyant seal]

The facinating moment that even Microsoft gave up on Windows Servers
and .Net in all its frameworks became Linux supporting too gradually for last 10 years 😏
The most Windows specific language embracing this path too and currently as mentioned even possible to develop with IDE .net directly from Linux
Purely .Net problems though
All other languages have no such problems and run on Linux fine all along

[haughty knoll]

hey everybody

i want to learn pyhton but dont know where to start it and how to build logic

[fringe sphinx]

Start with a beginner tutorial, then do small projects to practice. The link below is a good place to look for resources, and if you have questions about which one you should use, ask in #python-discussion ; everyone likes something different.

!res

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[analog citrus]

are there any online hackathons that will be coming up?

[kindred oyster]

not exactly "hackathon" but sites like codeforces regularly conduct coding competitions with prizes , you can check them out

[analog citrus]

codeforces are more like comp coding right?

[kindred oyster]

sort of , yes

[hybrid sage]

what software engineering jobs is good if i like using the linux terminal alot?

[true harness]

any?

[peak halo]

Unless you somehow end up at a windows shop that uses PowerShell exclusively: literally any.

[buoyant seal]

for any web related at least, backend, system admin, devops engineer, data engineer, full stack it is especially best. (Best development, from linxu for linux)
Otherwise indeed linux is usable for everything except for development of Windows only programs with stack working only in Windows (Hello C# in Visual Studio having 30gb+)
And also linux makes less sense if developing stuff for Apple (could be a point developing apple from apple)
Technically u can develop cross platform applications from linux for other OSes too, but only with specific tech/languages

[peak halo]

You can also create a linux-like experience on Windows pretty easily with wsl or a Windows bash terminal

[formal saddle]

yo guys

i have a Q

[peak halo]

Go ahead. Be sure to say everything that you want to say in one message.

[formal saddle]

this is an amazon cloud support associate internship interview, how could I best prepare it? I'm not super informed in this area and only have 5 days to prepare, I'm fully ready for the behavioural it's just the technical interview I don't have a grasp of yet

[white relic]

I would probably start by identifying which of the five topic areas you most struggle with, and then look for resources on those areas specifically.
If I were expecting this interview, I'd be focusing on networking and virtualization and to a lesser extent on "web savvy", because those are the areas that I'm most rusty in. I'd be lost at "How does traceroute actually work?" for example.

[formal saddle]

Wow thanks ! Do you know good sources for windows and linux and network and virtualization ? I'd struggle there the most.

[white relic]

The Linux Command Line is a good book and available online for free, it covers a lot of shell scripting, and touches on other aspects of Linux in a way that I think would be good for a 5 day refresher. You could probably skip some chapters, like using vi and printing

Not sure about Windows, and like I said, networking and virtualization would be one of my weak spots too, so maybe another person would have better insight on those topics.

[formal saddle]

thank you @white relic

[white relic]

It's a nitpick, but I don't think I could name the "four basic principles" of OOP. I guess encapsulation, abstraction, inheritance, polymorphism?
Knowing the list of four ten-dollar words isn't the important thing there and if I got that question I'd be having some doubts about the culture there.

[formal saddle]

Yeah, I'm not sure, I really want this role, I do regret not studying these areas becuase all I'm mostly knowledgeable in is programming not cloud stuff

[white relic]

Point being, you should be able to say something about each topic, but don't hyperfocus on being able to name the exact answer they expect - a good interviewer will recognize when you know something, and a bad interviewer is a warning sign.

[formal saddle]

ahhh

[near ocean]

Wait till they ask about SOLID

[white relic]

oh oh I know that one!
... or... I used to.
I remember that O stands for open/closed and L stands for Liskov

give me ten minutes, I can probably remember them all

guess it's a good thing I'm not interviewing right now

[near ocean]

They asked me about it at my current job, i said i dont remember random mnemonics

[white relic]

fair

guess you got the job, so it didn't hurt you much

[near ocean]

How common is it to be asked random trivia questions, either about python or about general software engineering

[rustic jetty]

Hey, im new to coding how do i make my first money

[near ocean]

you dont, do you have a degree? do you have experience? a portfolio?

[shy sigil]

I've been a hobbyist for most of my programmer life, I'm in university at the moment, doing Computer Science and Engineering. I've always made personal projects, participated in game jams and made little packages and libraries in Python for fun. Dabbled in Rust a bit, dabbled in HTML/CSS a bit, didn't stick that much

Should I start programming more seriously? What I do is fun and great, but I'm going to be entering the professional world soon. And I'm going to be looking for off-campus jobs, which means I'll be applying to them
Half my projects are video games, is it time I learn something that's useful? Maybe, I should at least start exploring? The only reason I haven't done anything useful is because I've just been constantly doing what I like the most, maybe I should pick up some basic web development skills, explore what data science is, what AI/ML is(even though I'm fairly sure I don't want to do AI/ML)

Most of the people around me who are taking it seriously are more focused on enhancing their degree by getting a higher CGPA, which of course helps. It's a pretty straightforward way to get a good package
I dont really want to accept that its the only way though. Right now I'm being defeated by everybody because the first year is basically physics, chemistry and math mainly. I'm getting median/average marks in all of them, not really able to enhance my degree like the others who are taking it seriously

[deft herald]

You'll learn the "useful" things in your degree program. I'd say your personal projects should indeed be what you want to do. But if you want to best impact your chances of landing a job after graduation, you should focus on getting internships in between school years

[shy sigil]

So what you're saying is focus on my degree and do internships

That's what everybody is doing
I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just I dont have much of a fighting chance because im so bad at physics chemistry and math

[deft herald]

Maybe CSE isn't for you then. Have you considered doing just pure CS?

[shy sigil]

I dont know what that means in India
BSc CS still has a lot of the same stuff i believe

(bachelors in science)

[deft herald]

In the US, a CSE program would include more of a well-rounded engineering base that would not be included in just CS

[spare dawn]

im losing hope in cs bro, junior year no big internship, all ghosts or rejects, research has proven to be useless on my resume so i stopped doing that 💀

is there any other career i can go into with my cs degree? ill take anything lol

[deft herald]

You still have another opportunity for an internship next break. Start applying now. Broaden your search if you have to

You don't need just software companies but you can look for hardware companies, finance, medical, etc

[near ocean]

Quite literally most careers

[spare dawn]

ive been applying, got some decent connections, im gonna apply to another hundred, gonna rewrite my resume for the 30th time, im just not sure if i wanna continue doing this for 3+ years/until cs stops being saturated enough, I really just wanna settle for any job that pays decently at this point. my backup atm is some defense company doing unethical stuff cause thats all i got left 💀

[slender knot]

dropout

[near ocean]

Shady defense companies are some people's dream jobs

[spare dawn]

im too close to finishing, so might as well finish

[spare dawn]

well its my backup as in, i know someone there, but like thatll get me anywhere

well see, ill keep trying i guess, the more n more i go on the more i regret this degree, yes its fun to code/make things, but making a living off it is hell rn

[white relic]

Defense can be an excellent career if your conscience allows it. Work-life balance is good and cleared engineers have essentially zero unemployment rate.
I worked in R&D for a major defense contractor for most of a decade. Most defense employees work on things much more mundane than missile guidance systems or domestic spying programs. Still, some people certainly object to the idea of working in the defense industry at all, and no judgment from me if that's you.

[outer spade]

Did someone here come from DevOps field and now work more as a developer?

[spare dawn]

i really wanna do robotics though, i know theres alot of defense robotic stuff, thats how i started my research here. but idk, getting clearences and the gov rules scare me off a little due to my migrant background

[white relic]

Having a history and (especially) contacts in a foreign country can be a challenge, yeah. It depends on the country and on what kind of project you might get assigned to.

[leaden jasper]

As someone who is a naturalized citizen, their big concerns are really only if you still have active non-family foreign contacts, any political dealings, or financial holdings. Beyond that, it's not too bad.

It also depends on the level of clearance. A TS/SCI goes through much greater scrutiny and requires more information of naturalized citizens compared to a Secret.

[spare dawn]

im US born but family isnt

[leaden jasper]

Doesn't change my answer too much, it'll just make some sections of the SF-86 a bit easier to answer. Their concern for political dealings and financial holdings extends to direct family members, but not much beyond that

[white relic]

Many of my coworkers were the children of immigrants.
In the absence of ties like jimj9 mentioned, having a drinking problem is probably more concerning (for your ability to get at least a secret clearance)

[spare dawn]

hopefully its not too bad, if they ask for immigration status regarding family ill prob have to drop it, ill apply to more gov jobs soon and reach out a prof working at one, guess ill quit weed again like last year in anticipation for summer interning at one too

[leaden jasper]

This is what they'll ask for, if you want to take a look ahead of time: https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86-non508.pdf. The family section is Section 18 (pg 44 onwards)

[spare dawn]

woah thats alot 💀

[leaden jasper]

yeaaaah, the SF-86 sucks to fill out

It takes me about 16 hours when I need to do mine

It's a lot simpler for non-immigrants and people with america-born parents

[vapid jay]

Hello

[fast fossil]

how often do you have to do it?

[white relic]

depends on your level of clearance, officially it's every 5 years for TS, although there are some circumstances I think under which it can be shorter

which for people who travel a lot can be worse than annually, because you have to remember all your international travel since the last time you filled out the form

better be keeping records

[fast fossil]

hmm

[fringe sphinx]

Didn't they extend that for civilians? Just did (provided/reference) a background check for a prior employee and thought that's what they said

Oh I guess not

[white relic]

I think they modified the rules somehow during covid iirc but maybe that was just to do with deferring investigations

[deft plaza]

Hey guys! Should I include "beginner" projects in my resume (Pomodoro Timer, Weather App, To Do List, Tic Tac Toe). For context, I am a CS major who is trying to land an internship and don't have bigger projects yet.

[white relic]

IMO yes, you should include some of those basic ones to show your level of comfort with code, but prioritize (after your studies, of course) working on some more substantial project(s) to replace them with in time.

You can include projects that you've done for class.

Some of those can also be substantial projects in their own right, depending on how much effort you put into them and what features you include.
A to-do list that is a mobile app with synchronization of lists across devices, for instance.

[smoky quest]

Whatever you put on your resume will be a reflection of the skills you want the reader to learn from you.

So the lower the demonstrated skills, the lower demonstrated skills they will think you have.

And concretely, that means:

• If they are too basic, it may hurt you to put them
• If they aren't too basic, just standard student stuff, it's better to put them than not having anything
• Start to lock in on more interesting projects

[muted bridge]

On a scale of 1-10, how competitive are these projects for Data Science positions?

Also, how bad is it that I don't have readme's for them...

[zealous topaz]

have you considered applying for contractor companies that train you? what they get you would be completely random (or based on client request), but at least you get paid and build decent experience. Unless you have really good network connections or you are next bill gates and don't need any connections, contractor companies might not be a bad choice.

[fringe sphinx]

I think it's solid, they're interesting enough where I'd want you to explain them to me.

I didn't look at any of them, and I'd probably want to know a bit of the complexity behind each

[muted bridge]

thanks

[slender quartz]

You're paying for these Azure instances out of your own pocket, right?

[muted bridge]

nope, I used the free 2 months of credit

[spare dawn]

where can i find these

[zealous topaz]

are you in the usa

[spare dawn]

yes

[zealous topaz]

try some of the companies like infosys, cognizant, revature, wiley edge, manifest solutions. There should be similar IT staffing companies local to your area as well. Yes some people might argue it sucks, but if you need a start, this might be the best option out there (beside air force option).

Do your research and try one of those. Pay is way below industry standard, but at least you get junior level experience after 2~3 years

[marble siren]

Hi I am Nishant , currently working as functional QA . I want to upskilly myself in the field of data science and want to begin with python could anyone share with me some resources to learn and practice . Thanks in advance

[vital shale]

Learn and practice python?

[marble siren]

correct

[dusk flume]

What 💀

[dusk flume]

He means you should learn and practise Python in case you thought he mean't "Are you learing and practicing Python"

[marble siren]

I see , I was wondering if anyone might suggest some learning resources or suggestions

[dusk flume]

These are what I've used and I'm self-taught, they were easy to understand and have really helped.

If your are interested in a .pdf, let me get recommend Byte of Python. It's fast paced and easy to understand!

Websites:

https://realpython.com
https://docs.python.org

@marble siren these are what I'd recommend, to get you started with Python syntax, understanding syntax is just one part of programming and I'd recommend you think of building something (e.g. a simple database management system, etc).

[marble siren]

Thanks alot really appreciate it

[vapid jay]

I am successful

[near ocean]

Hi successful, this is #career-advice

[astral fable]

lol

[fringe sphinx]

@true slate Your off topic message was deleted. There are three off-topic channels you can use.

[astral fable]

Wow the first one seems interesting

[stoic glade]

Same I am aslo learning python,I started using panx io and now using scrimba

[open ivy]

I wonder if I should go for companies that use Pulumi?

Based on my experience and interests, general-purpose language DevOps workflows may be a better fit than DSLs such as Terraform.

[dreamy spade]

What is a “Full-Stack DevOps Engineer” ? I thought one can only be a “Full-Stack” or a “DevOps”

[open ivy]

I don't know if the name means all that much besides making cloud resources etc it is not very descriptive.

[harsh river]

what's your argument about not being able to be both?

[dreamy spade]

Idk why you sometimes answer my questions with questions

[harsh river]

because it's intenteded to get you to think.

[fast fossil]

Tbf, it was a question regarding your statement about what you were thinking not an "answer" to your question

[hybrid sage]

Can you do freelancing for web developments and/or android apps?

[dreamy spade]

But I said “thought” not “think”. “Thought” is past tense

[harsh river]

i ask questions because I want to understand your reason. why do you believe 'Full-Stack' and 'DevOps' are mutually exclusive?
Both roles involve managing different aspects of development / deployments.

A 'Full-Stack DevOps Engineer' might handle everything from coding the front and back end to managing cloud resources, CI/CD pipelines, and monitoring.

in my current work my title is
"Founding Software Engineer"

yet i do a bit of everything, from coding the front and back end to managing cloud resources, CI/CD pipelines, and monitoring.

titles are just titles, don't limit your perspective solely on titles.

[hybrid sage]

tbh the best thing to be sure about a title is to read the job's description

Anyway guys, is it viable to do web development as freelancing?

do you need industry experience before working for yourself?

[dreamy spade]

You want an honest answer. Okay. Here’s an example. One works for a national corporation with over 45,000 employees. I was under the assumption that a developer would be assigned to a specific role such as (DevOps, QA, Front-End and etc) in a team. Which is why it was questionable to me that one would wear two or more hats when they work for a large national corporation.

A small company would be an exception for a developer to play multiple roles

[harsh river]

the larger the company, the narrower the titles tend to get.

[harsh river]

You want an honest answer.
this is career discussion, an honest answer is the best way to go.
no shenanigans, just straight to the point.

[fast fossil]

I don't think they think that said roles are mutually exclusive anymore
Since they used to think that (which they implied in their response to me)

Anyway, the title "Full-Stack DevOps Engineer" might as well mean that they handle DevOps for the entire stack... could be a redundancy, but maybe Full-Stack doesn't include some other parts of the whole company, like, it might not include dealing with DataBases or desktop/mobile apps

You'll be better off reading that job description though

[harsh river]

Since they used to think that (which they implied in their response to me)

sometimes i tell someone "i'm deaf yet i can still hear you"
and they respond with "i thought deaf people couldnt hear at all", "thought" doesnt always denote the length of the "past" sense there

[vapid violet]

Are job titles even descriptive as is? Wont it differ greatly from company to company. I feel like job titles just have a lot of buzz words that mean nothing out of context

[hybrid sage]

yeah lol. What the hell is a "scrum master"

[harsh river]

Are job titles even descriptive as is?
not always i guess, but, are they meant to be?

[true harness]

yes

[white relic]

Job titles are mostly only meaningful within a company, although there are some general trends.

How buzzwordy they are also varies by company.

[next plover]

I go by "comptia sec+ certified cybersecurity expert and analyst"

[lethal quail]

senior silicon puppeteer

[white relic]

Web 3.0 digital twin chatgpt blockchain AI architect

[cerulean widget]

I also have it

I also got net+ and A+ certifications as well thrown around lol. One got in 2018 and the other in 2023. enjoyed learning abt networking and hardware and stuff like that

[next plover]

I might go for net+ at some point

[harsh river]

how did you get my title??!

[white relic]

This looks like advertising, which isn't allowed here. Please remove it

[vital wyvern]

Please do not do that.

[next plover]

i did it just for you

[whole flare]

expert?

[next plover]

its my linkdin headline therefore true

dang

[fleet reef]

No shenanigans
I am offend

[muted bridge]

Should I keep my university R&D lab internship or seek an industry internship instead? I'm aiming for a T20 Master's program but lack research experience. On the other hand, I do think industry aligns with my goals a little more, and research during the academic year is always an option.

[smoky quest]

it depends

[mortal wedge]

An industry internship vs a R&D lab internship will be valued differently by different people, so it depends on what you want to specialize/focus on

[uneven ledge]

hey all, what is python used for? is it like, mostly math based stuff, science stuff?