career-advice

[fringe sphinx]

Just waiting for your YOE to accumulate isn't much of a plan.

[dapper bane]

I got no plan

[silver jacinth]

Building drones for ww3?

[dapper bane]

Except sit and do internship

[fringe sphinx]

You have many things you could do. Network (conferences, meetups, etc, plus having lunch with coworkers). Become expert at something in your stack. Contribute to an OSS project. Start a project. Watch conference videos. Read books. Start a band. Learn to crochet.

[dapper bane]

Most of the time is being dedicated to the job

[fringe sphinx]

Most != all.

[dapper bane]

I try to learn cybersecurity

[fringe sphinx]

You have agency. You are not some flotsam floating in the ocean

[dapper bane]

Agency ?

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, you're using very passive language. As if you can't do things and must merely wait for life to bless you with $$

Today is the first day of the rest of your life

[silver jacinth]

Work at McDonald's and do options trades

Bonus points if you go on WSB

[dapper bane]

I already have an internship that pays below medicore

[silver jacinth]

My internship was unpaid

[dapper bane]

Did they took a lot of work from u ?

[silver jacinth]

I'll just say I did stuff that people on Fiverr would charge 10k for

[dapper bane]

Wdy think I am doing

[fringe sphinx]

I just don't understand; excuse my assertiveness please: but you have a job. Do the best you can at that job and quit complaining: then get your next job and do the best at that job

Don't complain about how hard or how much they expect. Do better than they expect. Then leave for something better.

Can complain about options you don't have.

[silver jacinth]

The guy wanted me to rebuild their websites in WordPress afterwards when we built em in react, then I refused since pay was 24$ an hour. This is after the internship ended, I gave him the cloud deployment instructions and other stuff

[fringe sphinx]

Because you had something better to do, right?

[silver jacinth]

Taking my vps offline today to spin up my old definitely legal torrent site

[dapper bane]

I would kill for 24$ an hour here

[silver jacinth]

I only offered to since I was bored. We just had to rebuild the websites

It's in CAD so like 18$ USD

[dapper bane]

That is a lot for me

and I need something like this

[silver jacinth]

I make more from trading stuff so meh, rather be a degen

[fringe sphinx]

You're focused on the result, not the path. Everybody wants more $$, what are you doing about it?

[dapper bane]

Shit man I learn cybersec or do bug bounty on weekends but load on me increased

[fringe sphinx]

Ever heard of time boxing?

[dapper bane]

I also try to learn stock trading , Mutual funds, ETF

[fringe sphinx]

Make time for yourself, and don't let work or anything else bleed into it. Do your best work, for sure, but don't let it unbalance you

This is why I love small tech: my work directly touches people, and my energy comes from users liking what we do

[fleet reef]

How small is small?

[fringe sphinx]

Current company is <10 ppl (new company-ish)

Last company was <30. Prior was 30k+

[balmy spade]

You can obtain the same in larger companies as well. My company is 32k+ (tech and business). I frequently shadow and partner with the business to be closer to the client. Seeing your work have an impact is an incredible thing.

[fleet reef]

That it is

[fringe sphinx]

As an eng mgr at big tech, they really wanted to put layers between us and customers. I was fortunate to have a good exec, but it was a constant battle

It got to point where only time I talked to customers was to present and barely got to hear feedback direct.

[balmy spade]

The layers can build up at the size of the company increases. I'm the type to ignore those and just go sit with tier one customer support for a week. I work in the heart of infrastructure and operations. Let me see the end product and hear the pain points of the front line. So many great inches of improvement to find. Also, so much reassurance that my little automations and solutions that feel tiny all add up to a heck of a machine.

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe software is a good field for people pleasers like us 🙂

[balmy spade]

I came from customer service. I never left it.

[fringe sphinx]

I'll take my bonus in compliments, tyvm

[balmy spade]

I like compliments. I'll take my bonus in deposits to my bank account though. haha!

[fringe sphinx]

Like today, got up, closed out a customer ticket from yesterday, and went about my day (already got a thank you email)

[pastel thunder]

if I know about 40% of ctc is going to fixed bonus + rsu
should i talk in terms of ctc, or in terms of base? What sounds more professional and experienced

[balmy spade]

What is ctc and rsu?

[fringe sphinx]

You mean TC, not CTC, I think

CTC is the internal cost, afaiu

[balmy spade]

accronyms.

[fringe sphinx]

Rsu is just stock grants

Tc=total comp

[balmy spade]

Thank you.

[fringe sphinx]

CTC is the actual budget cost for hiring, which is higher than what you get paid (TC)

[silver jacinth]

Isn't rsu tied to a contract so if you get layoff or fired you lose it

[fringe sphinx]

Not exactly, it's on a schedule.

[balmy spade]

restricted units have a vesting period. Once they vest, they are yours. Before than, you generally don't keep them.

[silver jacinth]

Someone in another server I'm in talked about it with Intel

[fringe sphinx]

For example you might get a 100k grant that vests 25% each year annually. If your employment is terminated before one of those annual vests, you don't get the unvested shares

[balmy spade]

Bonuses in the form of restricted stock units isn't that uncommon. I have them myself. About three years before all of it vests. You'll hear the term "golden handcuffs" in relation to them.

[silver jacinth]

Yeah

[pastel thunder]

Tc, yes, you can say that
what terms should I talk in?

[silver jacinth]

They got it from a hiring bonus thing, wasn't a lot but still

[fringe sphinx]

Companies usually have a standard ratio for each level. Ie: juniors might be 80/20 but vp's 20/80

Salary to Bonus/RSUs

[pastel thunder]

so, talking in terms of anything, wont make much difference??

[fringe sphinx]

So, you may be able to wiggle a little, but realistically, you just want to say the TC is lower than your expectation (possibly with a justification)

Or you could argue for a higher base, saying you need more predictable income, or you could argue for a hiring bonus because the rsu vest is a year away

I've seen offers with a first year hiring bonus up front, with subsequent years via RSU (I think this is how Amazon handles it)

[pastel thunder]

off course not,
this one is new, interview went much faster and monday is HR manager round (as per call but email says it VP round)

[fringe sphinx]

Remember that they are experts at their job: hiring and negotiations. You aren't.

So, have a plan; know what you want to say, what you don't want to say, and take any unexpected questions offline

[pastel thunder]

yeah, so any thing you think can help, I am happy to learn

thats priority one though, HR is definitely sus, yup

[fringe sphinx]

Me: I like arguing for bonus. It shows I'm confident in my performance

[pastel thunder]

close to home, will save more, free food, free gym, better locality,
Based on interview, I think I can have very influential role after joining.
They were surprised by some of things I knew (i liked the acknowledgment)

[pastel thunder]

its fixed bonus, not performance bonus

yes, but just the hR is doing
interviewer were so happy, they gave their personal mobile number lol

[fringe sphinx]

The holy grail is a performance tied bonus, but it's hard to construct (except commissions in sales/etc), but in small companies, you can put your money where your mouth is: I'm goin going to accomplish xyz in first year, and you're going to be happy to pay me for it.

[pastel thunder]

between is it wise to reach out to them, about how things are delaying?

<5 ?

in my current org, (pretty small) I am expecting 50% of decided bonus, based on how my manager is, lmao

Isnt EDA experience better than normal SDE for HFT?
since EDA use C/C++ and a lot of optimisation is done, whereas SDE involve less relevant stuff

i mean if x0, 000 was decided, I am expecting, x0,000/2

[balmy spade]

Ya'll like your accronyms, don't you?

[pastel thunder]

embedded

lol
is ctc said $1000 is variable, I am expecting $500 to be actually paid

quant trader

maths yes, is very imp

but SDE vs EDA,

I think EDA has more relevant experiences for HFT

[fringe sphinx]

Your use of eda is weird to me. Eda means, to me, exploratory data analysis. Embedded != eda

[pastel thunder]

Electronic Design Automation

[fringe sphinx]

And EDA (stats) is certainly relevant in quant world

[pastel thunder]

its basically C++, microprocessors, optimisations

so, loosely relevant to HFt, i think

[balmy mural]

I actually received more than my salary in a bonus last year. I was very pleasantly surprised and then wanted to cry when I realized all of it gets taxed at the top bracket compared to my normal salary not being taxed in the top bracket alone 😂

[fringe sphinx]

That seems like a stretch, imo, but whatever: skills are skills

[fringe sphinx]

What country?

[pastel thunder]

startup, i geuss

[balmy mural]

South Africa. Our bonuses are performance based, but not related to any hard metrics. But we had a really good year last year with our client

[pastel thunder]

not to forget, EDA also deals with optimising for AI workflows
so more relevance their

[balmy mural]

Very much worth it. My bonus was approx salary * 1.4

Is that a per month bonus or just once off where your salary + bonus that month is 1.1-1.15x your normal salary?

I got my salary upped 2x last year for a total increase of ~22% compared to starting salary. Then bonus was approx 126% of my salary by year end, but I got it 1 month before the second raise. So approx 140% of my salary at the time

Yea, I was flabbergasted. Bonus is obviously performance dependent, but I do wonder if it scales as my salary scales as well or if it'll stay around a certain monetary value as my pay scales up. I believe it'll be the second one though since if I understand it correctly, our client somehow determines the bonus and not my direct employer

I'll know end of this year. We're set to have another great year, so either bonus will be similar, or scaled up to match my higher salary

Our company hasn't slowed down hiring in the past 4 years at all. On the contrary, ignoring this year, they've targeted and come close to hiring 10% more new grads compared to the previous year since 2021

This year they matched hire rates of last year since we don't have enough teams/clients to justify still scaling up 10% per year

I don't really know what the market looks like for people with experience and ideally I won't have to for at least the next 5-6 years

Ideally, yes. They have a path to move to Europe within the company, and I'm hoping to have things set to move within the next year. I'm also very happy with my team and the work I'm doing. I'm getting above market raises from speaking to my friends, I'm getting good bonusses. So unless anything significantly changes, I'm happy where I am. If I feel like I'm no longer learning or progressing my personal skills, I'd just ask to transfer to a different client within the same company

Obviously plans do change, but right now looking forward, ideally I don't find any reason to move for 5 years

Yea, I'm in a very good position moving forward as long as my company can get me to Europe within my timelines. Speaking with my executive sometime this month to update them on my timeline and get an update on how things are looking since I expressed my interest to move a year ago. My ideal scenario is staying within my current team, but our client might not agree with paying the higher rate for my salary increase to move to Europe. So I might have to move to a different European client as well

[fringe sphinx]

Some small companies give more variety than large companies: I've interviewed many big tech people who worked in one narrow thing for many years, pigeon holed

(Just saying that it's not so simple)

[true lion]

Yo I gots a question.

I plan on making an application to help with studying and want to tie in an LLM like chatgpt or cohere. Would this be a good idea for a product that could generate me money or should I instead work on smth else?

[smoky quest]

There is no magic. If you want to make money from it, you need to do the homework to understand your market, your users, the price, what value they get, the existing solutions, the costs to you, etc.

[smoky quest]

also note that ideas are cheap and plentiful. It's all in the execution.
You could have two companies/people starting from the very same idea but resulting in two completely different products due to the differences in learning, execution, etc.

[silver jacinth]

layoffs are worse in non-tech sectors this year. Retail and restaurants were hit hard this year with closures and layoffs

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, higher interest rates will hit hard as companies can't borrow for nearly free.

[silver jacinth]

in canada our rates went down, so we should expect 8 more here this year. Hopefully the usa follows

[true lion]

I see 🤔 so then basically what I should first do is find out my main target audience and what attracts them, how to handle the market, the funds, and anything else I require in order to make a product that can generate?

[fringe sphinx]

that's one way. another way is to build it and try to discover if there's a market for it and whether your product is sufficiently differentiated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Snapchat

[true lion]

Alright! Thanks for your help guys! 😄👍 I’ll come back once I’ve understood what my goals are for the product and what I need to do

[steep plinth]

Asking for a friend. They're currently moving to Europe. What would be the best way for them to get into the IT Field? They are talking to their university right now about internships.

[open ivy]

I think that computer science people struggling to find a job (very roughly) in two broad categories.

1. Bootcamp graduates with little experience. Note that "experience" includes personal projects.

2. People with a long-standing passion in the field, but who don't fit to the social norms of the workplace.

[pine sleet]

i think it's far more multi faceted than that

[open ivy]

Yes of course.

Do you know anyone with a long-standing passion who struggles to get hired? What challenges do you think are holding them back?

[fringe sphinx]

Yah (agree with Robin), it's complex. I also see a category of students who focused on their studies but neglected the internship/networking/social/project side.

[open ivy]

I wonder if desperation correlates with tunnel vision?

People crank out huge numbers of resumes but are they ignoring projects and networking (making friends)?

The mindset of "I absolutely must get a job" may be less productive, for the purposes of getting a job, than "a job is nice to have". Afterall, most people don't like desperate people.

[fringe sphinx]

One problem is that networking and projects aren't a short-term thing. You need to start developing relationships early, and finding areas of interest (project focuses), hard to do this when you're about to graduate

[true lion]

Yikes 😓 I might have that challenge if I continue to focus primarily on school then? Or should I try balancing the two worlds of socializing and making connections around the world and also being academic?

[open ivy]

Four worlds:

1. Formal education.

2. Job applications.

3. Your own projects. Itch.io game jams etc.

4. Make friends with CS-related interests.

I would recommend never to let any of these four drop below 5-10% of the total effort. And try to always keep the sum of all 4 equal to a full-time job's effort. Once employed, try not to abandon these tasks completely (except maybe (2)).

There is a synergy. Having a basic knowledge base is useful to understand the world around you. Sending off applications to a small number of "hidden gem" companies won't hurt. Having plenty of (3) will keep you gaining experience. But you need to (4) in order for anyone to care about your projects.

[true lion]

Ok

[open ivy]

Also, try to do (3) both online and in-person. For example, Source Forge has people working on projects as well as a DM feature (GitHub lacks this). Reach out to them, ask them about thier own projects first. They will often be happy to share.

[true lion]

That makes a lot of sense, and I feel like I’ve just been doing (1) and (2) more than (3) and (4) (other than my friends at school who I kinda do projects with, but only once or twice in a year)

[open ivy]

I would spend the most time on (3). After-all, (3) is the most like the skills you will need on the job.

I would try out (2) and keep it at a low level if it is not promising.

(4) is fun, in addition to bieng useful. Also, if finances ever do get tight (4) increases the odds of getting access to safety-nets such as low-rent rooms, espially in person.

[true lion]

I see 🤔 I also wanted to know how to find people who are willing to work with me freely on projects but I usually find it difficult to do because you can’t just trust someone based on only being online and never in-person. I’ve also done some hackathons in the past but most of the people I’ve been with were either too laid back or extremely competitive

[open ivy]

Maybe two people each have their own project, but work 20% on each-others project, bouncing ideas off each-other and helping encourage each-other?

[true hatch]

Can I make 150k as a software engineer?

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe.

[true hatch]

Are you a software engineer?

[fringe sphinx]

Yes

[vapid jay]

anyone here good like rerally good at coding i need some help

[fringe sphinx]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[true hatch]

Is it worth to spend 7 years in college to be a lawyer?

[umbral frigate]

Probably better to ask in #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval since this is more for Python career discussion.

[true hatch]

Then a mod sends me here again smh

[true lion]

Hm that sounds cool and would work. I will attempt that for the future as I continue learning how to actually network and socialize with others that hold the same passions and aspirations

[orchid grove]

Hello, I am looking for an expert that can help me to develop a clone notcoin

[cloud flint]

!rule 7

[inner wren]

Rules

7. Keep discussions relevant to the channel topic. Each channel's description tells you the topic.

[smoky quest]

The "build it and they will come" doesn't work.
So it's a matter of making sure you don't spend months on something that is not solving actual problem or that people do not want.

[fringe sphinx]

You keep asking basic career questions that have no answers. 'Is it worth it' and 'how much money can I can doing X' are unanswerable.

[fringe sphinx]

My advice: stop worrying and take the time to learn something like programming. After you learn, then you can decide if it's interesting

[neat shadow]

Networking with the right people is a pretty important skill too, but that’ll only work if you have something to show/impress them with

[vapid jay]

can someone suggest some good projects for resume of an ml engineer

[neat shadow]

projects, being academically decent, and doing your research properly about where you want to go so you can direct your efforts better are some things you should focus on along with networking

[vapid jay]

the project part is annoying af

[neat shadow]

A little more context on your background would help people better answer this

[last gust]

does anyone know about vercel v0

[vapid jay]

like my tech stack?

[vapid jay]

yeah its for deployment

[neat shadow]

I.e. prior exp about work you’ve done, the depth of knowledge in ml itself, academic/professional level

[last gust]

I think v0 is a completely different thing ig you don't know about it

[vapid jay]

i have worked as a front end dev ml i have good grasp over all the basics i have made projects using transformers cnn's cv basically and i have also built some language models am currently in third year (computer science engineering)

ah no idea about that sorry😅

[neat shadow]

You’ve built LLMs? Could you expand a little more on that, or do you mean you’ve fine-tuned LLMs?

[vapid jay]

fine tuned basically

💀💀💀

??

[neat shadow]

Well first step would be to find what do you want to explore in ML

A cool idea, If you just want to explore LLMs would be trying to build a RAG based search engine that indexes a specific website, and then make a UI for it, then you can think about automating the search engine scraping portion to support multiple similar websites

[vapid jay]

sounds cool

[neat shadow]

sort of like perplexity on a really small scale and maybe a niche application instead of general search

[vapid jay]

u have any suggestions if am tryna land an internship

[neat shadow]

That’s one thing, usually what I do is find what I want to learn, then find a problem in that niche and build around it

[neat shadow]

Apply early, network, prepare well about the stuff you’ve worked on, be good with lc

[vapid jay]

can is show u my resume later can u take a look please?

[neat shadow]

Uh sure

@fringe sphinx can I plug a large cs careers related server here or no, probably helpful for a lot of people here. Edit - I see you’re in it

[vapid jay]

thanks man

[true hatch]

Every question I send you complain. Caring about my future is great, idk wtf is wrong with that, im shocked that you are getting angry at me for arranging my future. What is up with you and my career curiosity? Im not even sure if i even want to learn how to program anymore. Programming is the most challenging thing i've faced ever. In the end it might be a waste of time. If you think you are helping, make sure to THINK AGAIN, you just complain.

[umbral frigate]

Your questions aren't really the most informative questions. You asked a question just then that was heavily based on opinion, and you implied a yes or no answer. It's frustrating especially if you repeat this without any means of real engagement.

[fringe sphinx]

You said you're in middle school. Trying to make career decisions while in middle school is not going to be helpful.

[strong lava]

You asked vague questions with no firm answer other than "it depends" and now you're acting suprised no one can give you an answer because y'know it depends

[fringe sphinx]

Instead take the time to learn things. Have fun. Do well in school. Experiment. You'll do fine. Even University students end up changing majors.

[true hatch]

great responding to a bot i didnt even talk to, I talked to Billy Bobby and him only, stfup

[fringe sphinx]

This is a discord channel, everyone is welcome to provide their input.

[umbral frigate]

!rule 1 The Code of Conduct is especially important in this server.

[inner wren]

Rules

1. Follow the Python Discord Code of Conduct.

[fringe sphinx]

And to be clear I was not angry, nor complaining. I was just trying to give you friendly advice. You can choose what to do with it.

[true hatch]

Alright, Ill just move on from this, speculating my career is not good at my age, ill live the fun teen life. Billy Bobby if you say so, we're cool.

[smoky quest]

BillyBobby is right

Right now:

• Keep up the good grades so you can go into the school of your choice
• Explore, discover and try things! It will help you understand better the different career options ahead of you

[summer roost]

Lots of people wind up with jobs as adults that they didn't even know existed when they were kids or teens

[vapid jay]

Hey just wanted to ask if it realistic for me to learn computer vision or should I learn other stuff and build my way up to it? I want to learn computer vision just as a hobby since I find it really cool.

I only really know how to solve leetcode problems and I've learnt opencv and mediapipe. Now I want to learn tensorflow and deep learning for computer vision however I'm not sure if I can do it since I'm only a beginner and I don't know any ML and data sci

[smoky quest]

anyone can learn computer vision. If you are a beginner, I would suggest to start with beginner stuff though

[vapid jay]

oh alright

Is starting with image classification beginner level?

[smoky quest]

If you can write python projects, sure.
But also that would be more appropriate to ask over at #media-processing

[vapid jay]

ah ok thanks!

[smoky quest]

there are also many free ebooks like http://szeliski.org/Book/

[shell flume]

take a relatively new pic and install red hat Linux on it

Flash iso boot install it.. terminal command sign up with red hat

And start downloading GitHub repositories … ai tools etc .. build custom python / Java models with open GPT 3.5

Tensor flow is just a tool for predictability %

[vapid jay]

oh alright

[shell flume]

Your going to want to start with

A book.. §ec….

Recursive right you gotta dive deep into enterprise Linux RPM based python

No more a mature apt install for you…. It’s yum install commands here on out

Custom ML python Java controlled programs

[vapid jay]

what is red hat linux?

[shell flume]

Enterprise Linux

[vapid jay]

oh ok thanks !

[shell flume]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=ORYh9K-XvzyIES-0&v=8OHe-4aYiKo&feature=youtu.be

I’m not allowed to post pdfs here but I believe the best operating Linux out right now is CENTOS or RHEL

[smoky quest]

It doesn't really matter.
Also not really #career-advice related

[vapid jay]

oh right my bad, shouldn't have posted my question here

[shell flume]

Don’t get me wrong Ubuntu 22.04.02LTS is fast… Lutris/wineCFG .. you can run windows video games better and faster than a windows OS can

Just graphics setting have to be set low because of little to no graphics card support files obviously

[shell flume]

I’m not arguing speed or security either… just pointing options

[faint igloo]

Could you recommend some books that are suitable for someone pursuing a career as a Machine Learning Engineer? I am looking for books that cover both advanced concepts and real-world applications

[novel viper]

can any one suggest me a good course on python

[smoky quest]

That's an awesome question for #data-science-and-ml . See also the pinned resources

[smoky quest]

That's an awesome question for #python-discussion

[faint igloo]

Oh alright, thank you for your suggestion

[fringe flax]

Could anyone guide me on getting a Job for IAM - Identity and Access management ,in USA / Europe, I currently work on Ping, SSO , Okta, Sailpoint , OIDC , oAuth, Cyberark , Azure IAM and AWS(only a few services like s3, Cloud formation, and AWS API gateway) and code in python , sql and java, I do not get any response from any companies if I apply in Europe through Linkedin and Glassdoor , I am not even sure if my resume is being looked at thoroughly, I only get an automated response saying "we are moving with other profile as my profile/cv is not a match" , Trust me my CV is ATS compliant too . Not sure how to proceed here and lost in life.

[smoky quest]

can you share an anonymized version of your resume?

[fringe flax]

Sure , giveme 2 min

[fringe flax]

I dont think i am able to send the doc in the chat here

[fringe flax]

Sent in a side chat , please have a review

[last gust]

Anyone here knows how to create telegram bot with python?

[fringe flax]

Do you have any specific requirements for the BOT ? I had a simple bot created when was in college for a internal project .

[last gust]

I just want it to send a message when /start is pressed

[vital wyvern]

This isn't the appropriate channel for that question. Try #discord-bots, #python-discussion, or #❓｜how-to-get-help/#1035199133436354600

[smoky quest]

saw it. Main feedback is:

• You should be able to make it fit in 2 pages
• An entire job just dedicated to IAM is going to be difficult to find in this environment. I would suggest to reframe yourself as someone more versatile and with a larger scope

[fringe flax]

Got it , Let me make those changes , Thanks for looking into it.

[dapper bane]

is there demand for full stack engineers who know machine learning ?

[smoky quest]

sure

[last gust]

[patent citrus]

I recently started learning programming, please tell me where to start, what to do and how to find a job?

[smoky quest]

A CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[patent citrus]

Xd

and without a degree without anything, just learn programming?

[smoky quest]

Sure, you can definitely take another path of extreme difficulty and work a lot more hours for a tiny pay.

[atomic nest]

just build alot of projects i guess

[smoky quest]

In that case, frontend is generally a lower entry point. You may want to review https://roadmap.sh/frontend and build projects.
But again, don't expect the same roles, responsibilities and compensation

[patent citrus]

Yes, I should at least start somewhere to find any job

[atomic nest]

yeah the whole market is a bit competitive so applying without a degree is a bit tricky but you could make a strong portfolio and you could probably make a good impression for recruiters

[smoky quest]

Note that:

• Every job ad has thousands of applications from people with great resumes, education, projects and internships
• Without a degree, you are in competition with all the people in your situation (without a degree)

So your profile must be so good that it stands out comparing to thousands of people

[patent citrus]

I have a feeling that my way is closed T-T

[smoky quest]

you are choosing a path of extreme difficulty. That does require motivation

[atomic nest]

i mean it's not impossible

it is incredibly difficult tho

[patent citrus]

yep because I literally have nothing

[smoky quest]

not sure what that means

[atomic nest]

can you like print to a screen yet

[patent citrus]

I don't have a degree in programming, I only learn 1 language, Python

I'm just a newbie

[atomic nest]

you can kind of do a lot of stuff with python

what do you kind of projects are you thinking of making

[patent citrus]

I don't know myself xd I need some kind of plan according to which I will go in the right direction, knowing that I am achieving the goal

I’m learning Python now and how will I learn it, what should I do after that?

[smoky quest]

What is your goal?

[patent citrus]

Now learn Python and some other language and get a job, albeit a low paid one

[smoky quest]

what kind of job?
It's like saying "I want to work in a hospital". There are many different jobs, from nurses to janitor to neurosurgeon. Without a degree, neurosurgeon might be out of reach though

[atomic nest]

he’s right python is a very versatile language that goes into many areas of the swe field

[patent citrus]

I just want to program

[smoky quest]

It also depends on your age, professional experience (especially if you have anything relevant) and your country

[patent citrus]

I'm from Kazakhstan, I'm 21

[smoky quest]

Can you help narrow it down a bit? What about #career-advice message ?

Oh I know nothing about Kazakhstan other than it can be wild there. So I can't advise much

[patent citrus]

xd everything is the same as in Russia

[smoky quest]

So I would suggest:

• Establish local connection that have a better understanding of your market
• See also the various roadmaps on https://roadmap.sh/

[atomic nest]

do you just wanna make algorithms, create neural networks, create a backend for a website, create visual simulations, hell make a game. there’s like a lot of stuff you could program in python.

[patent citrus]

wow

[atomic nest]

the possibilities of the snake are endless

[atomic nest]

those are like only some of the fields that use python naming them all would take me a while

[patent citrus]

I don’t even know myself..... I just want to program something

[atomic nest]

then do it

starting as soon as possible is a good way to plant the seed to branch into other areas of the swe ecosystem

[smoky quest]

It might be worth focusing on learning first before looking for a job

[atomic nest]

yeah some good online resources are w3schools and geeksforgeeks, freecodecamp and programming with mosh on youtube are good visuals too

idk I took a college course on it which gave me a lot of the core fundamentals but these resources should at least get you started

[fringe steppe]

is there anyone can review the code of cpython with me together? i have some problem with it，maybe we can solve it together

[kindred oyster]

(usually those are the resources we prevent people from using since those have a bad reputation)

good resources for python should be listed in the embed down below

!res

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vapid jay]

How to prepare for data science interviews?

[dry quarry]

I want to learn django and flask can anyone tell the best resource from coursera and youtube.

@vapid jay@dry quarryhello

[plush summit]

Guess Just like any other interview and make sure you know the basic fundamentals

[vapid jay]

Hi I had some questions. Is there a reason why companies pay you less if you don't have a degree even if you have certificates and work experience 😢

Are companies hell bent on paying you as less as possible, same as we employees are hell bent on being paid highest possible.

[atomic nest]

i haven’t done a data science interview yet but I assume they bring up python libraries like pandas, matplotlib, scikit-learn, and some other stuff as well as concepts like linear regression, clustering, and other neural net concepts

[atomic nest]

i think that’s just capitalism

companies aren’t really concerned with anything but their bottom line sadly

[white relic]

Supply and demand.
If another company would offer you more, would you leave your job?

[vapid jay]

It depends on the type of role ig.

[fringe sphinx]

I find most companies aren't so impersonal: bottom line does override everything, but they understand that culture and work environment and taking care of employees is a necessity (whether because they're good ppl or cynically just trying to manipulate employees to be productive, doesn't matter).

[sturdy jackal]

Question

As a developer working alone making a game for the google app store, would it be better for me to make a game that is actually good that may earn a bit of money or a low effort game that spams ads every few minutes to maximize on profit

[fringe sphinx]

It's a revenue = volume * cost (selling or ad click) equation where volume and cost are variable. It's probably unsolvable since volume is difficult to predict.

[sturdy jackal]

But with the state of the mobile game industry right now, low effort games are very high in popularity compared to the actual effort put in it

[balmy mural]

Keep in mind the low effort games with tons of ads that make a lot of revenue are from companies that have very large advertising budgets to get eyes on their game and downloads. If you don't have a large advertising budget, it's probably better to get a smaller amount of recurring players with a good game with some ads to generate revenue

[gritty rivet]

Yes, it's called capitalism 😅

[balmy spade]

The choices appear to be:

• Learn how to create games that might build you a community and carry those skills forward
• Learn how to patch ads into click-baits and hope you can do this often enough to scrape a little money out of the system

I'd take the first one. Seems more enjoyable, valuable to me as a person, and has the highest chance of turning a regular income.

[hushed ravine]

Question for everyone: how long did it take for you to get “good” at programming

[balmy spade]

"good" at programming as a whole? I don't think I'm there yet.

[fleet reef]

When do you think you will be?

[balmy spade]

I don't know. Good is subjective, so let's just go with "feeling slightly comfortable while performing a task". Programming is an enormous field. I could work the rest of my life at learning in it and still have things I haven't ever touched.

I'm "good" at part of what I do. Vendor specific APIs, middleware solutioning, and bridging systems. Yet, even there I have areas I'm still learning from. Then there's system's tooling, infrastructure tooling, webdev design, database management, and so much more. That's just my job! My hobbies are wildly more diverse.

So, honest answer to "how long did it take": I'm not there yet.

How long will it take you? Depends on your goal. Only thing I can say is that you won't be done learning or getting good after a 3 month boot camp or a handful of udemy courses. You'll have started, but there's more to learn.

[sturdy jackal]

Alright thanks

[hushed ravine]

Comfortable with the tasks assigned is more so what I meant. I’m considering switching to a tech major but I am not sure how good I will be at it

[vapid jay]

With python, you can start building things from day one and within 3 months you can actually build valuable things that could land you a job

[balmy spade]

Pick up a book like Automate the Boring Stuff and start programming. You'll get a feeling for if you like it or not. Can't ever guess at how good you'll be at it. You can only look at the effort you've put into previous tasks and commit to putting at least that much effort into future ones.

[silver jacinth]

Companies want to minimize expenses, which employees are

[silver jacinth]

Like 1 yr, it depends on what you're doing though

[true harness]

to interpret the question slightly differently, "good" is a process. if you can learn/improve with programming effectively, you are good at programming. not to mention various associated soft skills

[balmy mural]

You'll take some time to be able to do tasks on your own when moving to a new company/project as well. There's always some time it takes to get comfortable with the frameworks/libraries and general projects tructure at a new place

[hushed ravine]

I'd also like to follow up with: Would you recommend that I take on a project with a professor that is using programing for a major-related project? I haven't done any projects and my coding experience is limited to python but haven't touched it in a year. Any thoughts?

the project is more related to 3d modeling and data science

[shrewd plank]

I with a service provider had different Projects like 6 months Typenscript, 6months Golang, 6 Months Python now iam in a new with also 4months Python.
I don't feel confident in a programming language but i can't choose my next Project.
Iam scared to be Allrounder people say thats more in demand than expert in one topic but iam not Sure.
Also which language is close to Python since i have used it most time

[fringe sphinx]

How else would you get good at it?

[hushed ravine]

true

the fear initially was that i was going to get overloaded with work

[pastel thunder]

RSU means you are given some stocks for free, right?
which can be sold at market value after the set vested period

[true harness]

"free" is an interesting word. but yes, once they vest, they are yours

[pastel thunder]

i mean, its not like you buy at a discounted rate then sell at market rate
right?

[true harness]

yes, they are different from an ESPP in that regard. but they are typically an alternative to cash

[balmy mural]

It's better to be an "all-rounder" until you've worked in the field for some years and naturally gravitate towards building your expertise in a specific domain. Turning yourself into an expert early means you might be pigeon holing yourself in a specific area before you fully understand/grasp what options there are for you to become an expert in

[pastel thunder]

i got confused, seeing this:

comment said this:

why they ignore rsu?

[silver jacinth]

probably because they expect to pay less for outsourcing to other countries. Meaning you won't get the same benefits as here in the west

[pastel thunder]

how is not consedering rsu, justifying that?

[summer roost]

Probably because the RSUs take time to vest, would be my guess

[silver jacinth]

could be a short term position, there's a lot of information missing

[pastel thunder]

ok, cool

[vapid jay]

I don't know why they didn't consider RSU but amazon is notorious for hire and fire

You most probably won't even get to vest the stock options. Lot of new hires are fired within a year

[brittle ember]

I have seen many videos suggesting solving LeetCode problems. I understand that the purpose of solving LeetCode is not just to do them mechanically but to develop problem-solving and pattern recognition skills. I'm very curious about why so many people solve LeetCode, but not everyone gets placed, especially in top companies like FAANG or MANG. What are the other important aspects or attributes of a candidate that distinguish them from the rest, particularly for freshers?

[vapid jay]

https://medium.com/@Thinkwithniche/understanding-amazons-hire-to-fire-policy-13d8e2dde4a1

[vapid jay]

Leetcode is just a filter to reduce the number of applicants for the human interaction rounds

There is no bigger meaning. Candidates who pass leetcode round but fail the technical rounds are those who are just leetcode monkeys.

[brittle ember]

So the candidates mention leetcode stats or leetcode profile on resume?

[pastel thunder]

why not both

[vapid jay]

Any candidate who mentions leetcode stats on their resume are admitting upfront that they don't know anything else

By any chance are you Indian?

[pastel thunder]

yes, that shouldnt be the only thing in your resume

[brittle ember]

Yes I'm Indian.

[vapid jay]

I thought so. The leetcode obsession amongst Indians is unreal. It is just one round of your interview process. You need to possess actual technical skills too

[pastel thunder]

actually hardest is first round
which is LC

[true harness]

often overlooked are soft skills

[brittle ember]

Ohh now I get it.

[vapid jay]

Leetcode rounds are only for freshers

A lot of companies don't bother with it after you get some years of experience

[pastel thunder]

also for those early in career too,
not just fresher

[last gust]

Does anyone know about V0 by Vercel?

[brittle ember]

So what will improve chances of me getting hired at big tech?

[brittle ember]

Or at other companies?

[pastel thunder]

yoe?

[brittle ember]

What if I have just completed my education?

[pastel thunder]

i dont think, ignoring DSA will be a good idea

[brittle ember]

I get it, but what stats in my resume will get me an interview?

[brittle ember]

I can show them skills/knowledge of dsa algo only if I get interview call

How much important are referrals?

If the company accepts referrals, it puts you way ahead in the queue. Correct?

Ohh. I get it now. That's why the content creators say in their video to talk to someone on linkedin to get a referral

Looks like win win for both parties

Opps.

Got it now. Is landing internship more easy as compared to job?

[shrewd plank]

i work since 2019 started in testing now SE in a big AWS Project (40+ devs) thats still young ?😂

[brittle ember]

I have seen that internships are mostly available to either college going students or the ones who have just finished college. Is it true?

Someone please reply

[fringe sphinx]

Many companies only hire third year interns (about to graduate). That's what I've always done. Some companies might also have 2nd year opportunities. Freshman is the hardest.

[true harness]

yes. the only exception i have seen is recently graduated students, like graduated 6 months ago

[fringe sphinx]

I have seen some high school internships tho, know two students who got one last summer. The company viewed it as 'giving back', but was more like giving the students a summer project

[balmy mural]

Then you're probably in a position were you can talk to your employer about staying on a longer term project? If your employer only does projects for 6 months at a time and that's not what you want to do, you can raise that with them and if you can't figure something out with them, it's probably time to start job hunting for a position where you'd stay with one project for a longer time

[brittle ember]

Thank you @vapid jay, @pastel thunder, @turbid bobcat, @fringe sphinx and @true harness for invaluable help and time ☺️

[shrewd plank]

at the moment i like it. I feel so fast growing. and after a year its good to move on.My position is senior and next year could be lead engineer. Collegues from my previous project applied at Google and got accepted. I just don't feel confident enough. Also studied mechatronics not CS. probably just the normal imposer syndrom

[vapid jay]

Unfortunately more and more companies are thinking of entry level roles and internships as waste of money and resources

The huge over supply of laid off workers isn't helping

[balmy mural]

If you're in a senior position, the specifics of your degree is very likely irrelevant at this point

[fringe sphinx]

Well, that's exactly it: internships are primarily (to me) a hiring vehicle (to maximize candidates). If there's an oversupply, i don't need them, etc. that said, I see entry level as a necessity: there is not an over supply of qualified seniors.

[vapid jay]

The industry knows that enter level roles and interns are barely useful or worth their salary. But it is a way of giving back to the industry by grooming new developers. If companies start cutting back on hiring of entry level roles, it will lead to a bad situation down the road

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, entry levels are certainly worth their salary. I have <1 yrs being very productive right now.

[vapid jay]

Lucky. We have had different experience in my our org. New kids in my org take atleast 6 months to ramp up and become productive

[balmy mural]

Entry level isn't productive for the first x months of joining the project since they need to learn the structure of the project. After that, majority of them do justify their salary in our company

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, small companies like mine can afford to be cutthroat: if they're great, great. If they're bad, bye.

[balmy mural]

x can be anywhere from 3-6 months depending on the scope and complexity of the project

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno, psvm, I've gotten over any guilt: there's always someone else who benefits (and( they leave with more skills, more hirable, and some $$ to bridge it)

[true harness]

it took me a whole week to get onboarded (get access to repo, slack, etc) at my current internship 🥴

[fringe sphinx]

There's a quadrant (grid?) of hire fast/slow vs fire fast/slow.

[balmy mural]

It took me about a month to get full access to everything, but a week to get the minimum access required to start working

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, I'd be shocked if an entry knew how to open a PR

[balmy mural]

I hated that first week of just sitting and watching people screenshare while working since I couldn't do anything xD

[vapid jay]

I have worked at some really big organizations. In majority of them it is impossible to get fired just for being incompetent. The only punishment for being incompetent is staying at the same position

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, when I was big company mgr, I couldn't fire for many reasons: one reason was that I wouldn't necessarily get the position refilled, it'd likely go to another team.

So had to be a damn good reason.

(Also, honestly, only had one person who I thought was a net negative on the team)

[vapid jay]

I have also seen a reverse case. A person was so incompetent that he was promoted so that he would move out of our team

Literally failing upwards

[fringe sphinx]

The paperwork/HR process for sure. Gotta put them on a PIP, wait, etc.

HR always wants to protect first against wrong term lawsuits

Who knows, maybe they crushed it at the next level 🙂

[vapid jay]

A lot of managers are also afraid of admitting they fucked up by hiring someone

He wasn't promoted to fired. He was promoted so that he would leave our team and weigh down some other team

[summer roost]

the skills required for management and the skills required for coding barely overlap. It's always weird to me that people get promoted to team lead positions from SWE positions. Many of the things that make you a good SWE (hyper fixation on details, for instance) make for a bad manager.

[fringe sphinx]

Read about GE and stack ranking https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitality_curve

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, conversely there's a few ppl I know who were terrible engineers but were very successful managers (I'm thinking of one who was nearly useless as a web dev but ended up VP of Eng in another firm)

[vapid jay]

GE and their ceo are responsible for 99% of the fucked up shit in the white collar industry today

Stack ranking just leads to "hire for fire" practices like they do in amazon

Stack ranking also completely destroys team spirit

[fringe sphinx]

But there's a fair question: how do you cultivate a competent workforce?

Knowing that the hiring practice is not very accurate. (IMO)

You get mgrs who manage down (micromanage) mgrs who manage up (and neglect the team), and good mgrs who can do both. Hard skills.

[vapid jay]

I feel Facbook does it better. They hire a lot of workers initially via third party payroll as contractors. If they perform good then facebook convert them into permanent employees at the end of the contract

[fringe sphinx]

That's a solid strategy, didn't know that was their practice

[vapid jay]

Yeah. But you have to confirm upfront if there is a chance of becoming permanent at the end of contract

[brazen island]

So, since I've started applying I've had a massive amount of people message me on LinkedIn about opportunities (that actually read my profile because they reference to details in it).

Is it because the LinkedIn algo puts me higher in search? Is it because I redid my profile and added more keywords?

[modest spade]

Hello guys! I was thinking of creating a small app, for me and my friend, focused on some PC Optimizing/managment. I also want a clean, modern, GUI, is python a good language for this purpose? All feedback will be useful!

[wild pagoda]

just use batch

[fringe sphinx]

Ask in #python-discussion please

[candid plinth]

Would work experience as an airport representative look good on a junior web developer resume?

[brazen island]

that's iinteresting, TIL

Is there any etiquette in how fast you should answer? I already have too many interviews next week + I took the day off Tuesday for an on-site. I think I only want to answer them if the on-site goes badly, which isn't likely.

Like, can you just keep them on read for a couple of days?

Maybe I'll schedule all of them for Tuesday then

[smoky quest]

What relevant skills would that demonstrate?

[candid plinth]

communication/teamwork perhaps
working under pressure,
being punctual

[brazen island]

Yup. I'll plan them in thhe afternoon or so

[gilded haven]

What are some beginner classes I can take to get a certificate for python idk if that well help me get a job but my parents are telling me it’s likes a degree somewhat

[modest spade]

Okey, mb

[gritty rivet]

Your parents are wrong. You should get a degree.

Getting the PCEP certification might help your college applications a tiny bit but no cert like that is going to help you get a programming job

[gilded haven]

Yeah but you don’t necessarily need a degree to get a programming job

[balmy spade]

Having a degree will make getting a job as a programming easier. I'd even say, significantly easier.

[gilded haven]

Yeah of course

[balmy spade]

It's not a requirement, you are correct. It's just the easier path to walk if you can.

[gritty rivet]

It's extremely difficult and a certification is unlikely to help. Better to focus on building a strong portfolio

[smoky quest]

That would be a path far more difficult and with less opportunities and compensation

[gilded haven]

Mmmm but sadly college is extremely expensive

[smoky quest]

It's an investment.
In-state college are generally cheapers, you could also go to community college and then there are student loans

[gritty rivet]

What country are you in?

[gilded haven]

Us

[pine sleet]

if you play your cards right you can even go to college for free

[gilded haven]

Unlikely now lol

[pine sleet]

but other than that there are many ways to make college far more affordable. tens of thousands of people from low income households go to college every year from all ages, so it's definitely feasible

[gilded haven]

I’m 24 turning 25 so I can’t do anything in HS

[pine sleet]

that's a great age to go to college

[smoky quest]

I know people who went back to college later than you and are doing great

[gilded haven]

But I don’t have to go to college right

[gritty rivet]

Then Recursive's advice is right. You can also look at online degrees like WGU which is very affordable.

[pine sleet]

you don't have to, but you should strongly consider it

[gilded haven]

I don’t need like to make 80k a year

[pine sleet]

it will actually be easier go to to college than try to get a tech job without going to college

[smoky quest]

Skipping college is not an equivalent path to college. It's a different path

[pine sleet]

are you trying to get into tech? or do you just need money?

[gritty rivet]

Why make things more difficult?

[gilded haven]

I want to get a job for programming specifically

[pine sleet]

you should definitely go to college then

[gilded haven]

Like game development or something

[smoky quest]

Everyone wants to get into gamedev.
Every job ad receives thousands of applications from people with degrees, awesome projects and great internships.

That means you need to be literally better than thousands of people to have a chance to stand out.

[gilded haven]

Like there has to be classes I can take that are similar to college but just programming classes

[gritty rivet]

Go on LinkedIn and look for game devs. You won't see many without degrees, because it's so near-impossible, but if you do find any, see what their advice is.

[gritty rivet]

A CS degree?

[pine sleet]

there are many resources on CS online, so you don't need a class

the content covered in college classes is but one portion of what makes it appealing

[gilded haven]

What does CS mean lol

[pine sleet]

computer science

it's the degree you'd typically get if you want to go into SWE/programming

[smoky quest]

If you are interested in gamedev, I would suggest to start making some. There are plenty of free tools.

[gilded haven]

So there are some resources to get a CS degree specific I doubt it’s free

[pine sleet]

nah, it's free. you can probably even self study an entire CS degree's content

[smoky quest]

the difficult parts are:

• Going through the materials. People who want to skip college tend to not value going through textbooks and doing the exercises
• Demonstrating that you do have equivalent skills to a degree holder

[cerulean basin]

@turbid bobcat hi i tired making few changes based on ur suggestion. any further improvements i can make ?

Thanks in advanced u already helped me a lot

[smoky quest]

you still have to compete with the other candidate who has been writing their own vulkan engine since they were 8 years old

[gilded haven]

Is it the cs50 class?

[pine sleet]

i think that's just an intro to cs class

[gilded haven]

Yea it something

[pine sleet]

it's a good class, but i believe it equates to what most cs degree plans have their first semester

[smoky quest]

It's not even that. It's that there are soooo many candidates that they can afford to pay less because they know that there are still thousands of people waiting in line

[gilded haven]

I just know entry level is 80k a year and i would be okay with 30k

[smoky quest]

So you are saying you would rather be making 30k/year instead of paying 50k$ and then having a starting salary of 150k$/year

[fringe sphinx]

It's hard to break into SWE directly, but you land a job in tech: there are many jobs in tech that can be a stepping stone

[gilded haven]

So if I go to college I would make $150 k

[smoky quest]

nothing is guaranteed, but that's like the 65-75 %-tile right now

[gilded haven]

Mmmm

But a CS degree isn’t the same then going to college right

[smoky quest]

a CS degree typically means a bsc in CS and is the diploma delivered at the end of your studies at a college

[cerulean basin]

alright ill make changes.
But putting more details wont it make it less readable?
like the two lines in one point

[gilded haven]

Cause I can’t just go to college for CS I would need math reading stuff like that

[smoky quest]

we are talking about a high tech job that does require highly skilled engineers.
If you want a high pay with less education, maybe another trade job would be more appropriate for you?

[cerulean basin]

i see! thanks for the suggestions

[gilded haven]

Yeah I don’t need to make a lot of money for right now

I just need a basic python job that’s why I want to get a certificate cause it would show I have a basic understanding of python

[cerulean basin]

yeah i got the idea! thanks for the reference

[smoky quest]

certifications mean nothing for swe jobs

[smoky quest]

A broken analogy would be like looking for a certificate in using a screwdriver when you are looking for a job to build space rockets.
What people care about is your skills related to how one can make space rockets, not how well you can use a screwdriver

[fringe sphinx]

With technical skills alone, you can land jobs like QA and Tech Support and Help Desk. Those are good entry points into tech: and the more you learn/prepare, the better your options.

It's hard (near impossible?) to directly land a programming job with only a few months of training. But with adjacent experience + study + practice, you can look for the next better opportunity.

[cerulean basin]

how much they usually pay?

[fringe sphinx]

Salary questions are impossible to answer.

[summer roost]

well, not "impossible", but they're very context specific

if you want to know how much people get paid to do QA or Tech Support or Help Desk jobs in your city, look at job ads

[gilded haven]

Ah

[smoky quest]

QA is also very broad.
And then it depends if you are in a position of force when negotiating, which entry levels without a degree aren't

[gilded haven]

So I just have to go to college If I want a game developer job

[smoky quest]

That would be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation.

Considering you haven't made any games yet, I would say it would be very unlikely to make it without a degree as it would still take years to become competitive on your own

[fringe sphinx]

My usual speech: you want to balance all three: Education (a degree), experience (projects), and excellence (actually learning and getting good)

[smoky quest]

Let's try another angle: a degree takes ~3-5 years.
Right now you are starting from nothing. So you would have to be better than someone who has been to school dedicated to the field on a full time basis for 3-5 years

That's your competition

[gilded haven]

I have made games but not in python

[smoky quest]

Look at actual job ads for gamedev and try to fill in your gaps

[gilded haven]

Okay

[smoky quest]

Gamedev is also far more than just gamedev itself. There are tons of pipelines, assets tooling and many opportunities around it.
But in 2024 it can get quite complex, especially in larger studios

[gilded haven]

Just how many companies use pygame to make games not a lot right

[smoky quest]

none

[gilded haven]

Exactly so me learning python is just so I know the basics of programming right

[smoky quest]

yes. Python is also used for tooling and scripting

[gilded haven]

Since no one uses python for game development

[summer roost]

I'd expect game dev companies to use python, just not to write games in Python

[smoky quest]

as a software engineer, you will need to know multiple languages anyway

[neat shadow]

Python is great for interviewing too

[fringe sphinx]

I'm imagining two people hissing at each other.

[gilded haven]

What are other stuff I can do in python that’s like game development but not exactly making games

[smoky quest]

probably a question better suited for #python-discussion

[wind plinth]

something that's game development... but not game development?

[fringe sphinx]

Check out https://api.arcade.academy/en/latest/ and https://pyga.me/docs/ref/examples.html

[summer roost]

there's a lot of work involved in shipping a product beyond the code that becomes part of the final product. Think testing, automation, build tools, data collection, alarms, debugging, integrating changes made by different developers/teams, etc. Even if a game is being written in C# or C++ or something, a lot of those "other" things might be made in Python

[serene merlin]

How do I learn python

[white torrent]

!res

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[gilded haven]

My brother is telling me some company will hire you with a certificate but it’s a lot harder to find

[pine sleet]

probably not a company you want to work at anyway if they'll hire anyone with a cert

[gilded haven]

Well if it’s like a official certificate

And not a random website

[white torrent]

What do you class as official in this case?

[pine sleet]

which one?

[gilded haven]

Like ones that from a online free college course like cs50 python

Harvard

[pine sleet]

yeah that doesn't hold any weight

[gilded haven]

Wow okay

[white torrent]

Most places will look for a degree from a college/university course beforehand

[smoky quest]

It's an intro class, not a full education

[gilded haven]

Ahhh

Okay I guess I have to consider college

[pine sleet]

you should

[gilded haven]

But because having autism is gonna be 100 times harder

[white torrent]

I found that in university, not everything will apply to the position you end up wanting to work in, but that’s a good thing as you will get a decent bit of exposure to several subject areas

[white torrent]

Not necessarily if the university/college you attend has adequate support in place for neurodivergent students

[pine sleet]

universities will have resources for this

there are many neurodivergent students that are successful in university. if they can do it, you can do it too!

[gilded haven]

Just I wish I could just be take CS and that’s it

But I have to take math and English

[pine sleet]

it will give you exposure and make you a well rounded student. universities also want your money

[white torrent]

Depending on the university, there may be some curriculums that offer purely CS if you’d rather that, mine did

[still condor]

I dropped from university mostly for non-CS related reasons... and now I'm completely non-well-rounded

[pine sleet]

bro is a cuboid

[white torrent]

A certified dodecahedron

[gilded haven]

Well thanks you all for the advice

[fringe sphinx]

I just wanted to clarify one thing: Yes, a degree is the ideal/best path. But, you can also start learning Python now and CS50 is one (among many) path to do that. You don't need to wait for a degree to start learning coding.

[shrewd parrot]

guys can anyone refer my friend for a customer success role? He is not from USA how can i help him?

[gleaming mason]

How can I get an unpaid internship role at a large tech company such as microsoft, amazon, google, apple, etc

??

[fringe sphinx]

Can you tell us about yourself? Country & education & experience, perhaps?

[gilded haven]

Yeah I know I will take my time

College might be path but

[fringe sphinx]

great, and hang out in #python-discussion . We can help you when you get stuck (you will get stuck / frustrated at times)

[gilded haven]

Because English is one of my weakest traits coding is hard but grammar is 100 times harder

So i might have to do one class at a time

[gleaming mason]

I live in the united states, I am working on generating some graphical python projects such as a calculator, to-do list app, tic-tac-toe game, etc,

[tardy prism]

Any job reference for United Kingdom??

I want to switch in python

[fringe sphinx]

In University?

[gleaming mason]

Not atm

Is a computer science degree important for obtaining an unpaid internship job?

[fringe sphinx]

I don't think there's many "unpaid internships" to be had, to begin with.

[true harness]

in swe, at least. almost all internships go to current CS students

[gleaming mason]

I just want to know, where can I find open source projects I could work on?

[fringe sphinx]

Do you know Python?

[gleaming mason]

Of course, that is my primary language

[fringe sphinx]

Ok, what was the last project you worked on?

And what libraries did you use?

(the hint is: start looking at libraries/packages that you've used)

[gleaming mason]

I created a calculator untilizing customtkinter, (I am planning on using customtkinter in the future, I am beginning to use it.)

[fringe sphinx]

One way to find OSS projects is to find a project you use, and look at their git issues. Many repos label beginner issues as "good first issue". A broad search: https://github.com/search?q=label%3A"good+first+issue"+updated%3A>2023+language%3APython+state%3Aopen&type=issues

[gleaming mason]

I can't find any projects without solutions

[deft herald]

We don't want unpaid internships to exist in our industry. At least I don't...

[deft herald]

What is a customer success role? And why should we recommend someone we don't know?

[fringe sphinx]

What do you mean?

I can find thousands of projects with open issues marked good first issue.

And, if you pick a package you've used, I bet you'll find lots of issues you could look at.

[grim geyser]

Hello everyone
so incidentally it so happens that I have a job week starting from 17th June for 2 weeks. But I haven't found a job as of yet so it would be great if any of you could help me out on this. I'm asking in Python Discord since I've been practicing Python and I'm confident with my basics. I'm willing to learn anything beforehand so please do let me know if you've got something.

[white relic]

What is a job week?
More specifically, I guess, what do you have to do about it that you need help with?

[grim geyser]

Well, it's a week where we're sent off to get a job and work for 2 weeks, no school. Any kind of job will do. It doesn't have to pay, just for experience. So I was wondering if anyone could give me a job to do online, even for the simplest of tasks in Python. Perhaps like a game dev team if it's not too much to ask. I wasn't quite sure as to where to bring this up.

[smoky quest]

We don't do ads for hiring/internships/placements

Though we are more than happy to help with your strategies and tactics

[grim geyser]

I see

Thanks for responding

Apologies for the troubles

[smoky quest]

no troubles at all.
Sounds like you are in HS. In such short timeframe, I would probably spam all your friends and parents' friends. Nepotism might be your best bet

[nova glade]

hi every im a noob in python ond want a job like everyone else

anyone want talk about python sql

[inner wren]

Discord Message Content Intent

The Discord gateway only dispatches events you subscribe to, which you can configure by using "intents."

The message content intent is what determines if an app will receive the actual content of newly created messages. Without this intent, discord.py won't be able to detect prefix commands, so prefix commands won't respond.

Privileged intents, such as message content, have to be explicitly enabled from the Discord Developer Portal in addition to being enabled in the code:

intents = discord.Intents.default() # create a default Intents instance
intents.message_content = True # enable message content intents

bot = commands.Bot(command_prefix="!", intents=intents) # actually pass it into the constructor

For more information on intents, see /tag intents. If prefix commands are still not working, see /tag on-message-event.

[balmy spade]

#python-discussion loves talking about python and #databases have you covered with sql specific questions. This channel is more career focused.

[gilded haven]

I forgot that you have to test to get into college so that is a no go meaning I can’t get a job in python

But because of my autism even with a college degree I’m already at a HUGE disadvantage

Meaning without one they will just laugh at me

[true harness]

you also need to take tests in college . how will an entrance exam be any different?

[gilded haven]

Cause ummm I can get good at programming but English I will never be good at

I mean I could always have 10 years of experience but I don’t think that will help because I have autism

I will always be look at different

[balmy spade]

You will be looked at for the value you can bring. Autism is the card you were dealt when your character was rolled. It's not an excuse for accepting less than what you want. Sure, you have to find a way to handle it. That's doable though.

[gilded haven]

I guess but people who have 2 years experience probably will be a better programmer then me if I had 10+

I guess I don’t necessarily need a actual job to make money I can make a discord bot that has a cheap subscription service

Or something like that

[balmy spade]

You are your worst critic and the best at knocking yourself down. It's because you know exactly what words and thoughts will hurt yourself. You've got to tell that voice in your head to shush, sit down, and watch.

[gilded haven]

Yeah

[smoky quest]

autism is a spectrum. Are you saying yours is so severe that it impacts your ability to perform a job?

Note also that tech is one of the most tolerant and welcoming field

[gilded haven]

It depends on the situation and the day

Sometime it doesn’t show sometime it does

[smoky quest]

I would recommend to to seek professional advice on that. They can definitely help improve your situation

[true harness]

additionally, in the US, discrimination based on disability (if it doesn't affect work) is illegal. companies are also required to provide reasonable accommodations

[gilded haven]

Well it could because I wouldn’t be able to understand something sometimes

[gilded haven]

Yeah I definitely have noticed that and I’m in a discord server lol

[gilded haven]

I think I’m pushing myself to much I have very little python knowledge and experience but once I put my mind to something I will do and I will get a job even if I have to have 15 years of coding knowledge to get my first job

[worthy wigeon]

I'm pursuing AI with python

a 12th grader rookie with good amount of CUDA experience, any help?

[smoky quest]

A degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

a masters would especially helpful for AI/ML

[worthy wigeon]

Got admission in Indian Institute of Tech, Bomba, CS course
AIR 16, JEE ADV 2024,
life has truly been hell when I had to prepare for it...

[vapid jay]

Hii i am very new to python and still learning basics if anyone could give any sugestions for me it would be very helpful to start my journey

[buoyant seal]

Practice makes perfection.
Build projects.
using CLI, TUI, desktop or web GUI.
Realize what u wish to have
=> Implement and improve ^_^.
P.S. preferably choose smth you are going to use everyday life, or some community needs.

[vapid jay]

Thank you bro

[brazen island]

I had a really unexpected interview for a technical sales position at a VC-backed startup 👀 .

I didn't see myself doing anything non-dev yet but honestly, I'll have to give this strong consideration.

My fear is obviously that if/when you take something like this you're locked into non-technical roles

[dark arrow]

air 16 is wild, congrats

[brazen island]

Well, good question. It's like a customer facing dev. It's an OSS product. Explain the features to customers, work with them on implementations. Liaise with the internal team. But also, if someone is on the fence of going premium going on site, talking to them, doing demos, maybe sketching an architecture for them etc.

at least, I think

[grim geyser]

Yeah I did that upto no avail. I'll figure something out

[grim geyser]

They'll probably make up a reason like he or she is incompetent or that they had a better candidate if they really don't want them. Disgusting honestly.

[fringe sphinx]

Yup, measure your progress over months not days.... the first few weeks/months are the hardest. Once you get through it and do a couple of small projects (ie: rock paper scissors), it won't feel so impossible.

[sharp owl]

Can I learn Python program for free?

[kindred oyster]

!res here are resources for that

and next time use #python-discussion for such questions , this is not appropriate channel for this

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[humble vine]

Hey chaps, I have a question. I will soon apply for a job and I have two web projects with Django, but I also have a started project about Pygame where I learn the library and make a basic game which is not yet finished. Should I make my pygame project public on Github (it is private now) and should I include it in my resume even thought it is not yet finished?

[brazen island]

Still curious about this, do you guys think a really customer facing role means it's hard to pivot out of if I don't like it?

[fringe sphinx]

I don't think so. I've alternated between engineering, management, and consulting/customer facing a few times.

Customer facing roles helps you become a well rounded technologist, more than just an engineer and more than just an empty hat (someone who talks to customers but has no depth)

[brazen island]

Alright, that's good to hear thanks!

I'll have to do more interviews with them because as much as I'd like to be involved in the sales process I don't want to be sales. I don't know if that makes sense

[fringe sphinx]

Yup: technical sales (or sales engineering or pre sales) has the word sales, but is primarily about understanding customer requirements and guiding them to a solution (that hopefully uses your services/product)

[brazen island]

Yeah, they specifically called it "sales engineering" but I thought it was something they invented

[fringe sphinx]

It's a rewarding job, altho frustrating for: lack of impact on product development (engineering will listen but often ignore what you want), and lack of time to really solve the customer problem (you stop short of actual delivery)

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, the other type of role is DevRel. You'll find lots of articles on both: sales engineering will broaden your experience, but dull your technical edge.

[gritty rivet]

Probably not, unless you think it will demonstrate specific and relevant skills that your other projects don't.

[fringe sphinx]

I liked consulting, my frustration was sometimes not being able to follow through on my recommendations: had one memorable customer who -loved- my analysis and recommendations... raved about it... and did nothing with it. A year later, they were struggling, and two years later project cut (for the very reason I called out, that they failed to take any action on)

[brazen island]

Yes. This was something I thought about as well. If I'm the relay between engineering and the customer and they ignore me going from customer to customer and hearing about feature request X that engineering has refused to implement ("Yeah, yeah it's in the backlog") will get boring quickly

[humble vine]

all right, thanks

[fringe sphinx]

I have a vendor like this, their engineers are just underwater and suffering from quality issues. The sales engineer is constantly having to make excuses and is frustrated.

[fringe sphinx]

But, not always the case. A well funded engineering with good product management will be engaged and listen to the field

[brazen island]

What I like is the idea of working for a VC backedd startup. We barely have any. The headcount is <40 and they're really really well funded (and expanding towards NA) so if I take it and do well there's a lot of opportunities

[fringe sphinx]

Sometimes high level SE's are called field cto's

It's perhaps a more palatable title, if you're negotiating

[brazen island]

Build features, integrations or a whole project of our $platform
was part of the job description which is interesting though

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, that may mean doing custom dev for a customer implementation. Not really an SE job usually, but in a small company, who knows. I would focus on figuring out what title you want and negotiate for that. At 40 person, 'SE' might not be what you want to come in as: it affects how they think of you.

[brazen island]

Oh, what do you mean with the last part?

[fringe sphinx]

Job titles matter, even at small companies. As an SE, your role is defined and as the org grows, it's easy to be marginalized.

[brazen island]

I think the specific content is really going to depend on the current needs. They said it's something which means I'd be engaged throughout the funnel. I guess sometimes that means pre-sales, other times that'd mean more customer success or even custom implementations

[fringe sphinx]

One thing you could negotiate for is a title more commensurate with your background or skillset or what you want to do. Small companies don't care about titles, so now's a good chance to negotiate.

[gritty rivet]

Who's the "we" in "we barely have any"? Have you looked at Wellfound, Y Combinator, etc.? If your goal is to work in engineering at a startup I would focus on that instead of shifting to sales

[velvet trail]

hi guys

[brazen island]

Belgium or, heck Europe in general

[fringe sphinx]

There are a lot of titles in the customer facing space: sales engineer, solutions architect, solutions engineer, field cto , etc

[brazen island]

Yup some other of those could work. Solid advice, thanks!

I think I'll just proceed with the other interviews I have and wait 2, tops 3 businesss days to answer them, depending on how they pan out

[velvet trail]

i want suggestions about data engineer i am new to this

where should i start

[brazen island]

Tomorrow's interview is interesting. I did an internship there and did the case study part of my MSc thesis with them as well. Also have several good friends working there. There's no real cons aside from me being unreasonably picky.

[fringe sphinx]

Yes for sure. It's a career builder. But, it's also very diff from a SWE

[brazen island]

What I didn't like about the job was that it was too analytics focused. It's an extremely childish argument but I wanted to work on ML projects that weren't strictly demand forecasting, predictive maintenance, and so on.

The thing is, all (consulting) companies that started out wanting to do "super cool ML" here quickly pivoted their entire business towards analytics and data engineering as they grew

The rational choice is joining

[fringe sphinx]

Reminds me of an interview with a startups cto. I said something like that (no ai/ml, but about ambition) and his answer was; he didn't become cto by working his way up or iterating to the position, he just did it and started a company doing what he wanted to do

(Which was funny advice in an interview)

Yes

Do projects. The modules are a byproduct of doing projects.

!kin

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[fringe sphinx]

Great! Don't rush, just learn a little at a time and you'll be great. Hang out in #python-discussion for help.

Yup, there's lots of ways. It's a good project. The other channel will help you

#python-discussion

[brazen island]

That's fair

I don't have the risk tolerance for starting a company. I also think my competitive advantage is soft skills (and not actual ML/AI). Irrespective of where I go I'll slowly pivot to those roles, but hopefully in the span of 5-10y and not in the next 2 months 😂

[fringe sphinx]

I stopped rationalizing it a long time ago. People dont start companies for rational analytical reasons, imo. Once you start analyzing it, you're not going to.

[brazen island]

Interesting. I haven't answered the recruiter's email yet (I told them I'll think about the role) and it seems they want to accelerate the process 👀

If you think too much about it you'll find reasons it may not work out and then you won't do it

[faint igloo]

I want to ask about internships that were very short, around 1 month. I left one because the company culture was poor, especially in terms of respecting employees working hours and working speed (especially for unpaid interns). Additionally, I had another short internship which i left to focus on finishing my studies. Should I include these experiences on my resume or not?

[brazen island]

I mean, I said I'll never make a company but that's untrueish. When my SO finishes her PhD we'll probably travel for (close to) a year and I'll give it a shot then

If it doesn't work out during that year (or I don't feel like working while traveling) it'll be no harm done

[fringe sphinx]

Belief is the operative word here. If you start worrying about probabilities/etc, you'll talk yourself out of it.

[vapid jay]

It all depends on how rich you are. Entrepreneurship is a dart game. Launching a successful company is like hitting the bulls eye. Middle class folks get 1 throw. Rich folks get multiple throws

It all comes down to how many times you can try and fail

[fringe sphinx]

Well, rich folks throw other people as darts (the VC model)

[vapid jay]

That's the game

[lyric marsh]

Sorry for disturbing the convo
Hello guys, i'm new here.** I am moderate level python coder(school knowledge). The only language I know is Python. **Now I am gonna start learning a new one(the basics over a period of 2 months). I have completed school and going to join CSE core in an college in 2 months. In this gap I want to have a good basic idea on programming. So what language so I start with foremost??

[spiral peak]

Hey folks needed some suggestions i am currently working as fastapi developer but i want to switch now the problem is that the marlet is more focused on django although i started learning it through docs now how knowledge is needed so that i can defend a year experience and can i do this 1.5 months

[spiral peak]

Well i will suggest to work on framework probably python support in almost all field and still if you want to learn new language go for JavaScript

[lyric marsh]

hmm

should I learn any prereq. lang like HTML to start with javascript??

[faint igloo]

How about this? Anyone any suggest?

[brazen island]

Never thought I'd say this but applying is actually quite exciting It seems like there's many cool opportunities out there

[fringe sphinx]

What language does your college teach as an intro language? It'll likely be Python or Java

[fringe sphinx]

It's funny to say, but I always liked interviewing. It's almost zero cost: most likely you'll get nothing, maybe learn something about a diff company, and maybe find an opportunity (but probably not from any single interview)

[brazen island]

Yeah, like the whole sales engineer thing. I'll consider it for real but I won't be "swooned". It's just like without their reach out I'd never have considered it

The hardest part for me is I'm effectively transitioning from research to industry and it goes either or two ways, they discount my profile on the basis of it or they're like these people and put a lot of interest in it

[fringe sphinx]

Customer roles are also very credential driven; publishing is one way to excel in that world

So, the academic / research part can be a big asset

[fringe sphinx]

Very might be overstating it: but if you have credentials, the sales ppl will find a way to work it into every conversation: for credibility

[craggy saffron]

Y'all I think I found my dream job

https://careers.miami.edu/us/en/job/R100071966/Software-Development-Engineer

the benefits go CRAZYY on this one

[fringe sphinx]

Check out Miami CoL

(But yah, it's a good city)

[craggy saffron]

I live in miami already sooooo

[fringe sphinx]

Ngl, envious. I hate the cold wet lands of my home nowadays

[gilded haven]

Are most coding jobs remote where you can work from home or no?

[near ocean]

they all are
whether the bossman allows it is a different question

[gilded haven]

Ah okay

Are there any websites so I can find like job listings and the requirements

[near ocean]

linkedin, indeed, etc

[lyric marsh]

I have no idea, syllabi not released yet..

[fringe sphinx]

You can ask the school. Call the cs department, they're quite friendly. Usually the department admin (the person answering the phone) will ask the dept head. It's a totally normal question

[lyric marsh]

Hmm fine, i'll give a try

[fringe sphinx]

Get comfortable with seeking out information: freshman are notorious for not engaging with the department and using all the available resources (tutors, etch

[lyric marsh]

and b/w java and javascript which one to learn first

[pine sleet]

doesn't really matter

[lyric marsh]

So they both are diffrent in their own aspects??

[pine sleet]

don't fall into the trap of trying to find the most optimal path to learning

[fringe sphinx]

Do you agree with my comments above on department? (You being closer to it than I)

[lyric marsh]

Hmm finee 🙂

[pine sleet]

usually the university's course catalog will mention what language will be used, but failing that yah - calling up or emailing the CS dept. is reasonable

it's not like they get a lot of traffic anyway, lol

[pine sleet]

Java is to JavaScript how car is to carpet

[lyric marsh]

I have no idea about CSE(I know only python which is a speck of dust in a desert), but I look forward in exploring the field of CSE

[fringe sphinx]

There's a few things you could also do over summer, I'm a computing history geek, so I love to suggest reading about the history of the field.

[gritty rivet]

I googled it for you .. As of 2023 in the US it was about 40% remote and 40% hybrid for SWEs

All the normal job sites like Indeed, LinkedIn, etc. list fully remote jobs

[lyric marsh]

Can you suggest any good yt channel??

[fringe sphinx]

I'm old. I read 🙂

[pine sleet]

Computing history videos or just programming videos?

[lyric marsh]

😅 , so can u share any references, i'll try to purchase

[lyric marsh]

computing history

[pine sleet]

Veritasium is pretty good for that

[lyric marsh]

Hmm I have seen his physics vids not this ones, 'll give a try for sure 🙂 .Thanks for that

[pine sleet]

yah. He has some computer videos too that go into the history of how something came to be

[lyric marsh]

Nice

[pine sleet]

If you want python learning videos, Corey Schaefer is recommended a fair bit

!res for everything else

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[pine sleet]

have fun

[lyric marsh]

Hmm fine, i'll check then out

Sir, you're a university student or working man??

[pine sleet]

im a student

[lyric marsh]

hmm finee 🙂

[fringe sphinx]

The Chip is on microprocessor history, any book on Alan Turing, I liked Code: The Hidden Language of Computer Hardware and Software https://a.co/d/06UZDov. Trying to think of good intro books, besides these.

[lyric marsh]

yeah I'll take note of that 🙂

[fringe sphinx]

More broadly, my point is: learn / study the bigger picture, not just 'how to program'

[lyric marsh]

Yes sir 👍

[fringe sphinx]

Innovators Dilemma and Mythical Man Month are always in my top 5 list too

[lyric marsh]

They're beginner friendly??

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, none of these are technical books

[lyric marsh]

Hmm perfect!!

[fringe sphinx]

Your public or school library is a great resource too. Grab a (not too technical) book on something you know nearly nothing about.

[lyric marsh]

Actually I reside in India, and in my town it's not so sophesticated 😅, to have a library

I'll try reading E-Books

[fringe sphinx]

In that case, archive.org is also your friend

[lyric marsh]

Thanks, it would be helpful 🙂

[fringe pine]

Hey, does anyone here have experience with MSc apprenticeship programs in the UK? 👀

[urban edge]

Hello! I'd like to contribute to Cpython. Where do I start? Is there newcomer friendly tags in the issue tracker?

[fringe pine]

Hey 👋 First check out the developer guide: https://devguide.python.org/

A couple of core developers are occasionally around in this server. You're most likely to see them in #internals-and-peps, so that might be the place to ask.

[cerulean basin]

Hi @turbid bobcat i made the changes, tried to make it a little more consistent. does it look better ? any futher changes i can make

Thanks a lot in advanced, already pinged u a lot lol

alright!

[cerulean basin]

ok! but where can i add flask and REST?
like can i mix it with languages and framework?
or remove it

[cerulean basin]

operation section will bulk up with lots of stuffs then ig so
lemme try up

[smoky quest]

could open them to lawsuits

[brazen island]

this is stupid as f

[smoky quest]

people argue for the dumbest things

You only need one weirdo out of 100 people to spoil the whole thing

Imagine someone sues you because of an answer you gave here in #career-advice .
You still have to engage lawyers, adds stress and time, even if it is frivolous. And the end result is it's not worth it in the end

you have to demonstrate damages, quantify them, etc.

So all in all, the benefits of giving you an explanation of why you are being rejected does not outweigh the risk associated with it. It's just so much simpler to do nothing

the more established the company, the less likely

[brazen island]

technical interviews and take homes have been disappearing. At most they do a "case study" here

But honestly, the 4-5 round tango is probably worse

Lighting candles and praying to the lord almighty you're not a grifter I guess

we've hired one of these in the past

[fringe sphinx]

Ever read the original fizz buzz article?

If not, you should, and then read the followups and discussions of it over the years.

[fringe sphinx]

I don't mind lots of rounds. It's the 5 people at one time that I can't emotionally handle. I walked out of those with my head spinning.

[brazen island]

I can speak to any number of people at the same time. I'm just too impatient for several rounds spread over weeks

For better or for worse talking is the only thing I probably score high in, percentile wise 😩

[fringe sphinx]

You have a future in sales engineering then 😉

[cerulean basin]

@turbid bobcat made changes, is there anything else i can do

[brazen island]

Our worst hire was a disaster. He was on the verge of finishing his third MSc (law). Already had one in mech eng and another in AI. He could do absolutely nothing.

I don't know if anyone has seen catch me if you can but that's what it was like. Handsome, well spoken dude but absolutely had zero skills

[cerulean basin]

alright! again thanks a lot for your help, without your revisions i were never been able to make good changes

[brazen island]

I studied with tons of people at MSc level that were OK to decent students that I knew really didn't have what it takes. Doing an exam well doesn't necessarily mean you actually have what it takes

[cerulean basin]

alright will work on it today evening!

[brazen island]

You can brute force your way through

Or be like one of my good friends, she did pure math and then AI. She's good at pure math math but not at all at engineering math, mathematical modelling or programming (but she graduated). That's always going to be a struggle

[fringe sphinx]

I have a few standard interview questions, usually something just hard enough where someone needs a little help to get thru it. I remember one candidate who nailed them, like just almost too easy. Hired them more or less on the spot. Fast forward: they were absolutely useless and couldn't problem solve anything. I believe what happened is our third party recruiter prepped them (by asking prior candidates)

It was one of those; I forgot why I ask those hard interview questions. I want to see someone actually think and interact; and I never saw that part of this person.

[brazen island]

The third party thing is a bit strange. For one of the interviews I have the recruiters want to prep me before each call by telling me "what the person likes to ask" and so on

It's obviously because they get a commission for hires. If they take it a little bit too far it actually works against the company

[woeful vapor]

i’m leaving

[fringe sphinx]

?

[terse field]

Hi everyone, i have a 'career' related question, but i suppose its more about Github. As a growing developer, i realize its potential, but i dont know the Proper way to use Github. I've uploaded some code to my profile already and made a few repositories. is a Repo like a project, that i upload all the related files to, totally separate from other repositories?

I ask in here mostly bc I imagine this will come up at work, or with showing my skills to an interviewer, i'd like to have an organized portfolio rather than a messy one. Thank you!

[peak halo]

@terse field your question about git and github belongs in #tools-and-devops. Thanks!

[terse field]

Thanks

[deft herald]

Since i'm speaking more on the career side, i'll keep my answer here

If anything, your best value from doing this will come from learning how to use git itself. IME, no one will actually look at an online portfolio or Github profile until the resume has already made it past the HR screen and you have already been scheduled for a technical interview. At this point, the resume gets dropped on the desk of (or emailed to) the engineers that will be performing the interview, they'll look over the resume, and if they're interested check out your online portfolio

So in other words, don't expect it to get you any interviews, but expect it to be the source of some discussion during the interview itself

[jovial crane]

Could webscraping be a career?

[pine sleet]

probably not

[peak halo]

Roles that involve data analysis might occasionally involve scraping data, but it's certainly not an occupation.

[fringe sphinx]

In a similar vein, you wouldn't say 'is hammering nails a career': carpentry is much more than one thing

[jovial crane]

I guess a way to reword it is “does knowing how to web scrape help you further in your career and does it open doors for career opportunities”

[high coral]

i mean, yea. are you interested in data analysis / data engineering?

[fringe sphinx]

I'd say indirectly. The skills you'll gain by learning it will be transferable to other SWE problems. I do data engineering, and while I very rarely need to 'scrape', the tech and problems involved are common.

[high coral]

as a data engineer, what tool(s) do you find yourself using most often on the job?

[fringe sphinx]

Sql, pandas, numpy, some polars at the low level. Various orchestration tools above that

[jovial crane]

yes I am, also some web automations too using selenium

[jovial crane]

how long did it take you to get comfortable using those tools

[fringe sphinx]

I'm old, not a good comparison, but I'm still learning.

[lapis wind]

Biggest one is SQL tbh

Personally never touching pandas again and slowly converting my work's code the Polars 😅

But SQL definitely the most important

For us at least, we also do a decent amount of scala for spark

[compact glacier]

Guys, how do you know if you like coding as a career?
Do you guys think the act of coding is fun or the end product is satisfying?

[dapper bane]

does gsoc requires 18 years of age and less ? 😭😭

[buoyant seal]

the process of coding is fun.
end product and receiving gratitudes is satisfying. that motivates continuing even further
coding more features -> recieiving more gratitude and etc.
Also i enjoy that with coding i can interpolate my imagination to real world stuff pretty much.

Well... at least coding itself fun and if u learnt good level of clean coding
refactoring/cleaning up/restructuring code is fun too.

It can be frustrating though debugging very bad code.
but well, that's part of life. And investigartions can be fun too. Especially once they finish and u milk results.

if some code is very bad, no one prevents me if necessary starting with cleaning up code first (if it is reasonbly possible at least)
Then i receive enjoyment => and have it fixed in quickest time

80% of effort can be often not coding but actually digging information, communicating with people and etc.
ergh... shrugs. There is its own fun in doing research and reading documentation, i compare this effort with my experince of playing heavily modded Minecraft servers. Very similar.

[dapper bane]

someone please holp

[buoyant seal]

So in reality coding has both not fun and fun parts to it 😁
Considering that debugging some obscure issues can be taking a large portion of time
Preferably we need to be a bit of masochists to find fun in it.

Depending on amount of tech debt in the code base, it can be veeeeery not fun
Then better your architect, unit test and static type code, then more it is enjoyable to support usually
Having CI in Github Actions for examples, having deployment via docker as infrastructure as a code, all little bits simplify and help doing things easier

[compact glacier]

@buoyant seal I've given up on coding before. Partially because none of my friends were interested in it. But now, they're starting to get into it.

I think one day i just gave up coding entirely, probably from burnout of coding a website. Maybe I was punching above my weight

[buoyant seal]

well, in my opining coding requires a plenty of stubborness to keep going, and belief.
Belief that i can do everything, having applied enough of effort helps me to keep going through difficult moments
https://youtu.be/3WfR87K5zW8
Sometimes that is the only left, when struggling issue can be lasting for days, and the only thing is changing are the old Error msgs to new ones 😄

Otherwise i find fun in finding perfection => How to do things with lesser effort.
Coding has a lot of parameters for optimization to reach perfection.
So this is a challenge that will keep me going through my career

Other known to me people that are tech wise but not coding ones (They do stuff for modding games) share i think same traits -> Stubborness to keep going and finding... some fun in solving tech problems like that

Some have this stuff from a start. I lack in some moments, and just try growing those feelings if i can in some cases. Until one moment they become natural part of me eventually.

i try not to force stuff if it goes completely in correct, i just find a fun way to go with it (at least in terms of my pet projects and self education)

for work itself it is different, but i have motivation in being paid too for my time and effort 😅

[buoyant seal]

Despite me having backend dev job role, i don't try to make projects in web way all the time... (well actually i do a lot now once i finally found tech that works for me)
I can be applying my effort in other stuff i find interesting. Whatever catches my eye.
For example for learning java i am not even going to try learning its frameworks at this moment for now, i will be just participating in minecraft modding ^_^

Web development can be... differently challenging. So best finding stuff that is fun instead of trying to build abstract business like stuff
Solutions to mitigate tech debt and making things easier are applicable though, in which case things can be far more easier to do (yay to unit testing and static typing)

[plucky anchor]

#career-advice :I am working in a team that has both Data engineering using Python,Lambda,EMR etc., and APIs using Java spring boot , SQL etc., My role is more of a scrum master role to make sure the team is devliering everything to Def of done and def of ready. However, I wanted to get my hands on technical as well and at the same time I am little shy about asking for help from Juniors.. I want to learn and take some small technical tasks on my own. How do we proceed? Also, where Can I keep my practices ?

[harsh river]

you should google the GSOC page, they're very detailed.

[pastel thunder]

Had last round interview with director yesterday and camera gave up on last minute, whats the fuck is going on.

Everything seems to be going south

[buoyant seal]

Very brain friendly guide into Java was recently updated ^_^

ultimately though u need practicing, making projects. Start with smth small, like creating simple CLI application for smth
Or simple GUI application with stuff teached in book.
Once u grow confident in skills more, jump to more intricate stuff

Don't leave even single practical exercise out in this book. You need as much practice as possible to get hang of it.
You need building your coding simpliest stuff first, solving simple 10 code lines problems like
to get used to coding and reading it
Average student codes from barely being able to write 5-10 code lines, to writing a mess of 1000 code lines in a span of a year.
(And eventually learning how to write less mess much later)

[covert cairn]

i need to write a code which takes the data for the rainfall throught the week and then presents the mean rainfall the overall rainfall and the day with the most and least rainfall im stuck at the bit for the most and least rainfall could someone help please

[signal gorge]

#1035199133436354600

why are you using [] for conditions? That will always execute the condition

[covert cairn]

Oh thanks

[red wraith]

How do you guys decide what to spend money on to accelerate your learning as an engineer?

I agree that you can always learn everything by yourself for free but for example if you have a choice to either learn Chinese (so that it's not Latin-based) on your own vs going to a language center, going to the language center would save you both time and effort on learning it to a certain extend right?

So what I'm asking here is what are those "language centers" that I, and engineers in general, should care about?

[dapper bane]

hey guys can I do gsoc at the age of 24 ?

[brazen island]

Interview went well, I'll know if I have the role in a couple of days. The only issue was the fact that they're done hiring for the season under normal circumstances

[dapper bane]

Hope it works out 4 u brother

[gritty rivet]

Any decent employer will have a budget for this stuff. Spend it.

What you should spend it on depends on your learning goals

[gritty rivet]

Their rules don't mention a maximum ahe

[true harness]

isn't there a requirement for being a certain grade in college?

[dapper bane]

r u sure ?

[vital quail]

Hi anybody from Germany here by any chance?

[vapid jay]

ban

jobs with senior in the name makes me think that if u kick a tree there will be 10 seniors falling from it

[vapid jay]

Hi

[peak halo]

Hello, be sure to always ask your actual question. Don't ask for a person who can answer a question you haven't asked.

[cunning rock]

Hello guys

I am new here, I chose python as my first language in coding

[peak halo]

Hello, you're probably looking for #python-discussion
if you do want to talk about careers, be sure that you say everything you want to say in one message.

[cunning rock]

I just want to know, what jobs that I can get by mastering python, I am intersted in ML( and AI) and Automation

[peak halo]

None. No one ultimately cares if you've "mastered" python. They care about your skills in the domain that happens to use python.
If you're interested in working in AI/ML, you'll need academic credentials related to AI/ML. And it will probably be a masters degree.

[cunning rock]

So, No matter how much I learn by myself, it'll be worthless without a masters degree ?

[peak halo]

For AI/ML, the answer is unfortunately yes, as far as getting a job is concerned. Though there are cases where you can do it with just a bachelors.
Though I would never characterize learning about things that you're interested in as "worthless" in general. learning is good.

[wheat hatch]

Think about it like this: Python is a hammer, you are applying for construction jobs. How often do you think a construction worker is asked how good he or she is at hammering? The answer is zero. They are good at building stuff, using the hammer is just one tool to accomplish that.

[brazen island]

Let us know how it went! 😄

[brazen island]

What type of company?

Sounds good, remote?

In San Fran or Berlin?

[dapper bane]

Hey I am getting an opportunity to interview at a company which will pay double my salary which is bigger and more stable

[brazen island]

Do they adjust your salary for location? Otherwise remoting would be a good option

[vapid jay]

Does anyone know what are some career options in this field that are entry level? I’m looking to learn python in my free time & want to know what I could direct my attention to.

[brazen island]

From what I've seen software testing roles are easier (and more chill) to get into, assuming you're coming from a "non-traditional" background (like, you're changing careers, didn't go to uni, ...)

[peak halo]

you can't ask for jobs here directly. are you asking for job hunting advice?

[dapper bane]

hey what I am saying is I got shortlisted for interview at a company that pays double

I will update on how it goes

[vapid jay]

Yes this exactly the case. Thank you for your advice, I will look into software testing.

[brazen island]

Oh I didn't know you wanted to relocate. In that case, yeah I agree.

btw, follow up from today's interview. I'm in. They'll send me the offer Friday 🚀

[crisp stream]

congrats

[brazen island]

Nepotism. I messaged the partner last week tuesday, he put me on the fast track and here we are today. I don't think I could've done it through the regular routes because my applications were going so so slowly

[vapid jay]

That's networking not nepotism

[true harness]

nepotism is a subset of networking

[analog sun]

!cban 1249870712538136619 Scam

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @void crest permanently.

[brazen island]

Yeah, they rejected 5 people just yesterday. I think I'll spend even more time on nepotism networking in the future.

The elephant in the room is what I'm going to do with all the other interviews I've booked for this week.

I think I'll cancel all of them except the one I got through a referral because doing it now would be impolite I think (or maybe doing it for no reason is more impolite, unsure). I'll bow out later there.

[true harness]

wait for the actual offer !

[fringe sphinx]

Isn't nepotism strictly family relationships?

[brazen island]

It is, I was joking

[fringe sphinx]

I guess you need to expand your family, that seems shady

Zestar75 in 5 years with spouses in every country

[brazen island]

Good point. The odds of them walking back is very low though. Their angle was "We've done all the projections and we're fully staffed but we think the opportunity cost of not hiring you right now is too large."

which is a nice thing to hear about yourself 😄

[fringe sphinx]

Is this theSE role?

[brazen island]

No. Standard "full-stack" role that goes from data engineering to ML

[fringe sphinx]

:shrug: a referral, especially from a past colleague who can vouch for your ability, counts for a -lot-.

Immoral? Where's morality here?

Immoral might be not giving someone a chance based on their race, gender, etc

Yah, the hiring process is about selecting for success. A personal referral is a strong positive indicator.

The company doesn't owe anyone a 'equal' shot.

(Outside of the clear reasons mentioned earlier)

I might really like candidates who went to school xyz.

There's always a hiring hierarchy, internal hires >> direct referrals >> everyone else

And similarly, there's education, experience, location, etc biases. It's never a simple; who does the best in the interview

Often companies are required to post it externally, and then internal candidates might apply

And, even if every resume is accepted, a strong internal candidate might get placed before an external candidate ever gets a shot.

Nepotism is family relationship: people getting a shot not because of a good reputation, but family loyalty's

That's bad for company.

[pine sleet]

does nepotism even work in big tech? i have a family member that works there and would be nice to get an internship there that way

[balmy spade]

Nepotism always never works.

[near ocean]

No, its strictly because of familial relations
Its not "wrong" until you have people skip out on accountability because of family connections

[fringe sphinx]

It can get your resume on the hiring managers desk, rather than an HR inbox

Getting your resume on their desk via a family member may be unfair, but it's not nepotism strictly

[pine sleet]

hmm, yeah that might be helpful

[fringe sphinx]

One time I was hiring two devs at big tech: in house recruiter posted the job, and said she got hundreds of resume and would filter and forward. At the same time, I got about 10 resumes from other managers dropping friends and coworkers resumes on my desk (literally)

[pine sleet]

did you spend more time on those 10 resumes or weigh them differently in any way?

[fringe sphinx]

I scheduled, interviewed and hired before I ever got a single resume from HR

[pine sleet]

damn

so you'd be competing with a much smaller pool of people

[fringe sphinx]

(Now, not all HRs would allow this, this is just my xp)

I also learn to never let HR filter resumes. Just send them all to me.

[near ocean]

Depends on how you made the friends? People you worked with vouching for you are different to your daddy vouching for you because youre his son

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, -and- they were all good candidates. It wasn't like I compromised. Maybe I didn't get the absolute best, but I would've kept interviewing if they weren't good

[pine sleet]

that is what i'm worried about, lol

[white relic]

getting hired when your dad works at the company: not nepotism
getting hired because your dad works at the company: nepotism

not sure what is being shrugged off

[balmy spade]

Curious where the line gets drawn. I shook hands with the hiring manager for the company I work with. I was called and hired the next week. Is that dubious?

[fringe sphinx]

I shrug it off, tbh. There's many perfectly fair reasons to only look at the 5%. In my example, it was because of expediency. Sitting through hundreds of resumes vs just going with the first couple I got (from managers who I hoped wouldn't be wasting my time)

The thing is: I look at hiring as a very imperfect and imprecise process. So, anything that improves the odds of success (or reduces lengthy interviews) is a plus.

I don't think I've ever had 5 candidates make it simultaneously to the last stage

We're usually down to 2 maybe 3

(Often just 1 and it's a 'hire/no hire' decision)

You know what I'll say.

[white relic]

perhaps I didn't scroll back far enough. What do you mean exactly by "do this"? Pass over someone in favor of someone else?

[fringe sphinx]

(It depends, for everyone else)

[white relic]

if you've got three candidates in the last interview round and you only have one opening, you have to pick one, so by definition, two of those people are going to get rejections.

How they got to the last interview round at that point is no longer relevant.

[fringe sphinx]

It's possible the other candidates were mediocre, and/or the referral was exceptionally strong from a well respected person

If my top engineer came to me and said; I know we have these three candidates, but my friend X is amazing... an absolute rock star, we need to hire them, I'd hire them (I mean, I'd still meet them first)

[balmy spade]

Yeah, even referrals need to pass the smell test of a meeting and greet.

[fringe sphinx]

But: I also don't trust my hiring ability that much: I assume I'm going to be wrong 20-40% of the time

[pastel thunder]

I think research paper can help in this

[wispy rampart]

Do you think poor education creates imposter syndrome? Lack of experience?

[balmy spade]

Neither create it. Both can enhance it.

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, and to be fair, that's different than my other example of just expediency (waiting for Hr to filter resumes/etc)

[wispy rampart]

Good answer. That seems about right. I wonder what else could minimize it other than good education and experience.

[white relic]

I don't feel education has much to do with impostor syndrome at all.
Is there research done on this?

I've certainly known people with poor education that thought they were kickass engineers (and vice versa)

[modest panther]

youtube is enough to train someone to start a million dollar app though
what is your definition of poor education?

[white relic]

and like... if your education is actually poor, and you believe you're underperforming because you are underperforming, and you need to work harder to make up for that poor education... then that's not impostor syndrome, that's just an accurate read on your situation.
impostor syndrome is when you believe you aren't capable of doing the job you're doing despite actually doing it fine

[balmy spade]

From my own experience anything that can cause one to ask "can I really do this?" adds into the emotional baggage that drives impostor syndrome. A lack of education could easily cause that seed of doubt. It's just like any other social pressure of perceived expectation.

[wispy rampart]

Hmm. Interesting.

Mailchimp seems to think it has a lot to do with the person. At times I think the environment or industry can contribute at times: https://mailchimp.com/resources/imposter-syndrome-at-work

[white relic]

sure, but (without knowing someone personally) it's kind of a chicken-or-egg problem: do you have impostor syndrome because you perceive you have poor education? or do you believe your education is poor because you have impostor syndrome?

[balmy spade]

I would, in heartfelt honesty, speak with a therapist for a better understanding of what might be driving your challenges. Summaries are great. Everyone has an idea how it all works. But we are all different and there is a significant amount of nuance to syndromes.

[white relic]

I feel like I have seen research on correlating impostor syndrome with levels of education but quality of education is hard to evaluate anyway, and self-reporting is problematic when the thing you're trying to measure is how bad someone is at self-reporting

[wispy rampart]

Really appreciate the feedback on this. I'm trying to build a system to combat this, but I am starting to doubt that what I'm building will actually help. Basically it's an education system that also provides experience, but a lot of people do this and this syndrome is still happening and causing mental health issues.

It does seem like more of the same mental things that happen with peer pressure and not meeting, as was said, percieved expectations.

[balmy spade]

Things like impostor syndrome never go away if you have it. Each individual learns how to control it, manage it, and live with it. We turn it into a driving force instead of a weight holding us down (sometimes).

[wispy rampart]

Not everyone can control or manage it though. I do the same when it comes up. I do use it as motivation. But I wonder where it comes from still

[balmy spade]

Not everyone has the resources needed (or the willingness to use them) for controlling mental challenges. This is quite true. I'm sure there are exceptional cases too.

[wispy rampart]

Extreme example: If I know for sure I can fry an egg, then if I'm at home doing that, I may not feel inadequate. But maybe if I entered a competition and was able to see other people frying eggs, that might come in, because I'm comparing myself to others. And then who sets the standard of a "well educated" or "great programmer"

One thing that most of programming lacks in my opinion is a lot of agreed upon standards on what is good, acceptable, correct, etc. So many styles and ways to do things. Of course some standards do exist but they are different from company to company. For instance. I may be "Senior" at a company but "Entry level" at Google. How is that?

[white relic]

I don't think experiencing occasional self-doubt counts as impostor syndrome. Especially in the context of an unfamiliar and new situation like entering a competition against people whose skills you aren't familiar with.

Impostor syndrome is characterized by the inability to recognize your own good work in spite of external evidence like people telling you how good it is.

[wispy rampart]

This is an interesting TED talk on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nlSD0zD8Gk
Just found this

[brazen island]

In this case it was fair. I interned there + did my thesis with them. It was more than "hey can you check out my friends' resume"

[smoky quest]

The moral concerns happen if it gets abused.
Beyond that, it's no different than any other signal. Note that not all referrals are equals. The interesting referrals are those coming from someone who has worked with the candidate and think they could be a good fit.
In general, while the referred candidate might get put at the front of the queue, they would still go through the same hiring assessments. It's also useful to build trust with the team

All in all, it can save time for everyone since it is a situation where there is a need for an engineer and someone already knows someone else in their network who could be great for it

[digital fjord]

it's also why you sometimes see absurdly specific job postings - companies want to hire a specific person, but legally have to have a hiring process, and so they tailor the position to the person they want to hire.

[smoky quest]

frequently done for visas where the person already work there

[white relic]

make them go through the same process as other candidates
The idea that all candidates go through "the same" process is not entirely realistic IMO.
Even when interviewing on-paper similar candidates for the same position, you judge people based on what you can observe about them and that varies a lot from one candidate to the next. When you're at the 2-3 candidate stage it's likely that one person had a better Zoom interview and one person had a better take home assessment and you're trying to figure out what hiring decision makes the most sense for the team. Some people are hired based on attitude and cultural fit and you gamble on their technical skills, some people are the other way. Having another candidate with a glowing recommendation from a team member is another way of getting there.