career-advice

[eager sluice]

that's just how it tends to be in our field sadly

[hearty island]

i mean i've taken finance classes, i'm a biz analytics student meaning i'm in the biz school

damn they insta rejected me after the call. a one minute call.

[eager sluice]

it's a far more effective probation to throw an intern in the deep end and see if they survive, than to ease them in. Especially with how many applicants we get

[hearty island]

probably bc i said i graduate in may

[eager sluice]

I really hate how competitive the whole thing is, but I guess that's the nature of this work

[buoyant seal]

😅 if u chose to do what u hate (like going into IT if u don't like, or becoming data scientist/machine learning despite hating it), you aren't going to succed no matter your effort, and even if u will...
is it worth it living in a hell every day of your life?

U need to be smart enough choosing something you are able to like in overall.
Math is this level big to me at least. (to hate)

[eager sluice]

I fully agree, myself (and a lot of other alumni) have found success by, during university, focusing on learning a wider breadth and going into a more niche career we knew we enjoyed than the stuff you learn during schooling.

But in a workplace, there will always be tasks you dislike, even if 90% of the work is enjoyable. Gotta have a balance.

[buoyant seal]

well, as we can observe we speak about two different phases of life then.
about what is worthy to learn during uni
and whatever u like it to do when u a already workforce.

topic was initially about choosing what is worthy learning during uni. I optimized it before i finished it 😏

during workforce u are getting tasks u don't like unevitably :/ heck, i am doing it right now.

[pearl veldt]

alright i know i asked this before but what are the best certifications for swe? my talent is primarily focused around RE

[true harness]

E. None of the above

[pearl veldt]

what about owasp? github certificates(might be irrelevant)?

[pearl veldt]

also how do you know

[buoyant seal]

What is RE

[regal axle]

Basically every single cert out there is arbitrary and a bad indicator of skill. Sometimes, a place will recognize a cert and will suggest or require to you to get one. But in a more general sense, it is not that valuable. If you happen to be getting one anyways, go for it; but going out of your way is generally not worth the time. This is a generalization, but also, like I said, if a specific thing requires a specific thing, it tells you ,,, specifically

[buoyant seal]

Exception: AWS certs above practioner do have value for DevOps engineers, backend developers and data engineers

• Similar company specific stuff for other tech is present often in infra field (like k8s and etc)

[pearl veldt]

i just really dont get why you would think a certificate wouldn't mean anything when being licensed matters a lot to a company(proof that you know what you are doing). and a license is a form of a certificate

[pearl veldt]

reverse engineering

[buoyant seal]

Too much faked licensing around a world
Giving certs in online courses (which a half arsed robbery) is super common
For this reason mostly only accredited universities matter.
There are some exceptions, but looks like they will not work for RE (not knowing acknowledged certs for RE at least)

[regal axle]

One is not the other. They are not the same thing.
It is better to spend your time actually developing and showcasing your skills. And a paywall is not a good showcase of said skill. A lot of certificates just cost money and are not hard to get if you just throw your money around. But that doesn't actually show to anyone that you know what you are doing. In some cases, it is a good pre step for sanity checking. But certs don't last forever and you are also betting on everyone knowing about your cert. Some niches do recognize a specific cert, and in that case, sure. But most of the time it is not that way

[pearl veldt]

the RE stuff i can do away with. its a fun hobby of mine, but to become a reverse engineer you need to be very knowledgable about tech and software engineering

[pine sleet]

they do mean something, but only in certain cases - it's gotta be well respected in the industry.
there aren't many such certificates in the SWE industry, because it's hard to assess knowledge like that using just a certificate. a 4 year BS CS program is much more indicative

[pearl veldt]

i see

[regal axle]

And honestly the only reason why a degree is, is because of the amount of time it takes to get it. Otherwise, they follow the same issues with certs (hard to verify ability from just a paper). However, time in the saddle helps regardless of talent. And so, a 4 year degree means this people has at least some base time

[pearl veldt]

my gf is currently doing a 4 year bs cs program at her college(this is her final year) and her classes have been a CAKEWALK for me because i do all her classwork/homework

[regal axle]

Now you just need to demonstrate that with your work // projects // interviews.

[pearl veldt]

yeah but like i dont get how this shows any critical thinking/skill.

[pine sleet]

sure, but how does a certificate show it any better?

[harsh river]

So you’re doing her homework for her?

[tribal horizon]

that's what they just said, yeah

[pearl veldt]

not saying it does. im through with getting a certificate now. and yes @harsh river i do. shes too fed up with her other classes but that's ot

[pine sleet]

right. it's hard to objectively quantify something like critical thinking skills. it's just a 4 year program tends to do it better compared to some certificate anyone can study for in a couple months

[pearl veldt]

i can demonstrate critical thinking at an interview or by linking my github. it's obvious at a glance that i'm really creative and a critical thinker

[regal axle]

You are hurting her a lot. At least if she wants to go into CS. If not ... ehhh,,, whatever. But yea, doing her work for her is not a favor.

[true harness]

isn't that cheating

[regal axle]

Funny thing is that you assume they only care about critical thinking. Some jobs just need you to do things that have already been done. So not all things require you to demonstrate high levels of critical thinking

[pearl veldt]

she's really just doing this for me so that i get her opportunities 🗿 shes obsessive like that

[pine sleet]

they don't have time for all that at the initial stages

[regal axle]

.... that doesn't sound healthy. But not my place ,,, so I leave it at that

[pine sleet]

also this is like, a whole another can of worms

[pearl veldt]

ya. im not being abusive and didnt ask for this, she's really just doing it to help me

[regal axle]

If you want to continue talking about that part of the conversation, maybe bring it to off-topic

[true harness]

are you on the same discord account or something

[pearl veldt]

i'll just leave it at that before people misinterpret and begin questioning me

[pearl veldt]

wym?

[smoky quest]

It's more like this is not setting her up for success. You are handing out fishes instead of teaching her to fish

[minor sage]

maybe this is where the interview candidates who are singlehandedly the reason for techinical interviews to exist come from

[pearl veldt]

im actually teaching her myself how to code. she finds it easier with me because i go into depth in topics and my attention is fully focused on her

[true harness]

it's why they ask fizzbuzz still 😔

[pearl veldt]

also i dont have a time limit

[smoky quest]

that would imply she should be able to do her own exercises/projects/exams as given by the teacher then

[pearl veldt]

they're bullying me

[fleet reef]

Where's yours?

[pearl veldt]

she doesnt pay attention in class so much. shes diagnosed with adhd

[smoky quest]

that's something a health professional should address

[regal axle]

Hey *void or BillyBob man or whoever else :
I need more money since my current situation is really slow right now (contract work). I am dry with new clients and my biggest client is being very ... flaky.

On to the actual dilemma. I can try to get a temp job. (ignoring all the hiring freezes). However, I can only work for about 6-8 months due to me having bigger things going on in that time. However, finiding a job while telling them that I can't stay for long is ... hard. Temp jobs are rare. So ... do I lie? And just not tell them? I really don't like that option as it goes against my morals / ethics. I can lie by omission but it still doesn't feel right. Idk.

And no, getting more clients isn't a great option right now since I need proof of income from a "real job".

[pearl veldt]

and they have. her school helps her with it but i still handle her homework to make it easier on her. i still teach her what the teacher taught that day except like i said i do it better(full attention, take my time, in depth explanations)

[smoky quest]

So then once you taught her, she should be able to handle the exams/exercises/projects from her teachers

[minor sage]

Really I'm not of the opinion that college is necessary or all that conducive to being a highly knowledgeable programmer
But I would remark that someone who is ADHD and develops a habit of not working on projects is going to have a bad time in a professional env

[pearl veldt]

imma let my gf take over this convo imma just run away

[regal axle]

From a long standing stance, you are really doing a lot of damage. Like what katy said. It isn't about intention to do bad things. That doesn't sound like what you want to happen. However, you are not letting them grow and figure out how to work with their mind and body to exist in this world

[smoky quest]

It goes without saying that getting into contracts while giving false impressions and assurances is not a long term strategy and will often results in more headaches than not

[pearl veldt]

i've explained this to her but she still prefers to rely on me. its not something i want to force on her

[regal axle]

Yea ... I am just a little desperate for cash right now. And that makes it really hard. I don't want to sell my morals. But I might also be wrong and letting people know that I can't work forever isn't that big a deal. It seems like it would be. But idk, don't have a lot of experience with that specifically

[smoky quest]

the world will be forced onto her at some point, whether she likes it or not

[pearl veldt]

sure, but i as the man in the relationship have to shoulder most of it

[smoky quest]

Imagine you burn bridges with them. Are you ready to deal with a gap year as they would not want to be your reference?

I would double down on short term contracts as much as possible

[regal axle]

Yes, but you can also push back. You don't have to let her rely on you so much. You can for some things. But not for getting through college. Are you also going to go into her office and do her work for her? Unless you plan to be the only one working (a bad way to plan even if that is what happens,) you won't be able to do everything

[smoky quest]

that sounds rather unhealthy and unmanly

[pearl veldt]

its a hispanic culture thing

[smoky quest]

not really

[pearl veldt]

...i grew up with mexican parents and so did my gf and so did all our relatives. it IS a common theme

this is just how hispanic culture is

[regal axle]

The problem is that I plan to go back to get my PhD. But I am waiting for a response. If I get in, I go. If not ... I go do job stuff. But I am planning as if I do get in. So, that means I can only work till Fall semester starts. Or at least ... I hope I get in

[smoky quest]

I know plenty of modern hispanic or mexican people. It has nothing to do with being unhealthy

[pearl veldt]

idk its one of those things where if you're not from the culture you simply wont understand

[regal axle]

As a hispanic ,,, this is not true. This can be true at times. But it is just as true for hispanics as it is for any other culture ,,, as long as you only look at how they were 80 years ago. This isn't true with how things are now.
But, I am sure you are telling the truth about growing up that way. And that does have a lasting impact on people

[pearl veldt]

its like a person who was raised by a certain religion. certain beliefs are hardwired into them

[regal axle]

Right. I am sure that is the case. Just not the part where it is becasue they are hispanic

[pearl veldt]

like amish people

[regal axle]

ehhhh; plenty leave. And more so, they now use a lot of tech.

[smoky quest]

yeah it's a tough spot.
Some companies are more amenable to supporting phd/school. It's worth investigating as well, but it also might be tough with the current situation

[minor sage]

lol no. There are entire forums dedicated to nothing but leaving various religions.

anyways this is obvious ragebait

[pearl veldt]

not everyone does this though. amish people and traditional hispanics being good cases of this

[pearl veldt]

[regal axle]

So anyways, that is why certs are bad for you

[true harness]

yeah, i generally agree with this. i think college courses on their own are not enough to turn someone into a good programmer. one needs to be doing practice on their own

[pearl veldt]

yeah. the programming classes always had a whatsapp group and there everyone asked for the answers to quizzes and homework. some even for the finals

[regal axle]

Yes; cheating happens. It be bad. It is really bad since a lot of people are diluting the value of these degrees because they are not qualified to get it since they just cheat their way through. And then they can't get a job. And then they complain on the internet about how it is impossible. Ok, well part of that last part is because of hiring freezes. But even when it is over, this will be the case

[minor sage]

Or they get hired and shit up the codebase

[regal axle]

I mean there is that too. But honestly that is the hiring teams fault. Or a managers fault. Or ... ok yea, it is the fault of the person who tried to take shortcuts

[pearl veldt]

yeah a certain game's source code is absolutely horrendous. 2mb cpp files

[true harness]

something something, don't hate the player, hate the game. someone should have stopped them. though this is kinda getting into a moral/ethics argument, which is not too relevant

[regal axle]

The waiting is killing me. What will princess say? Will we ever find out?

[pearl veldt]

i can peek on her phone rn

nvm shes being bratty about it now

[rugged cypress]

I finally got a girlfriend

[pearl veldt]

mb hate to flex on y'all

[gritty rivet]

Look for job listings that mention the certifications you are considering. In infrastructure and cybersecurity roles you'll see some that matter, but for pure SWE roles there basically are none. (This may vary by geography though, so look for yourself.)

[balmy spade]

Can confirm. Infrastructure/systems job + even basic AWS cloud certs is a bonus. "Sweet. You won't be any more confused than the rest of us with the alphabet soup terminology."

[random fulcrum]

Hi there, when do I know that I am ready to start applying for junior developer jobs

Ive spent 80% of my freetime (and during uni hours) learning Python and programming in general for the past 1.5 years. I am now learning c#, I have done a lot of Lua programming the past years as well. I have a broad set of tools and interests as python developer

But when do i know whether im ACTUALLY ready

[stoic atlas]

when a company responds to you with an invite to interview 🙂

what I mean is, you'll never feel ready. Just apply

[random fulcrum]

I gotta take that next step

idk why i keep doubting myselves, i got nothing to lose as well

[stoic atlas]

yeah but without feedback you don't really know how well prepared you are. Just go apply and interview. If you bomb it, you can analyze it later and think of ways to improve.

[regal axle]

Super normal. You don't have to be the best. You just have to be able to do enough. And the thing is, if you have holes, you just need to show that you are able to learn what you need to as things come up. Becuase no one knows it all.

[random fulcrum]

I did get a job offered a while back by a 'start' up

though it wasnt directly a 'junior developer' offer, but it also was. Its mixed

[regal axle]

That sounds like a "we need talent" position. And they are just not in a position to care if it is junior or senior, just someone who can get work done. But idk the specifics. Either way, it sounds like good signals if someone is giving you an offer

[random fulcrum]

👍 thanks for the advice. I think I'm gonna contact him tomorrow, its 3am now :D

[gritty rivet]

Probably worth accepting, as long as it's better than whatever you have at the moment... You can always continue to look

[idle delta]

hello everyone!,

[vapid jay]

@foggy acorn

Do u guys have any cool codes or commands I can use for my python training

[velvet river]

I recently completed an internship where I gained experience in image processing and machine learning using PyTorch and TensorFlow. I was awarded a certificate for my work. After graduating high school this year, I am planning to take a gap year before starting college the following year, where I will major in Bioinformatics. During my gap year, I would like to work in the same field and go abroad to the US or Canada from Germany. However, I am not sure what kind of companies in the bioinformatics field would support a gap year for someone with just a high school degree. I am looking for advice and suggestions from anyone who has experience or ideas about companies where I could apply?

[smoky quest]

nice and congrats!
I would also suggest to look into visas as you would not just be visiting a country

[gritty rivet]

It seems unlikely, even if you didn't need visa sponsorship, to be hired in that field without a degree.

Even if you do a degree in your home country and get internship experience, visa sponsorship is still unlikely

Your best bet to eventually get a professional job in those countries is to finish a degree there, and get an internship if student visa allows it

[turbid bobcat]

Uhm. I think anything is possible, especially if you can demonstrate that you are operating at a high level.

But I've been mostly seeing positions that either require MSc, PhD or equivalent experience.

This is how it's currently looking in Switzerland.

The ones that say +NaN XP doesn't mean 0 XP, they just asked for a certain seniority, it's all mid or senior positions.

And notice how there's not that many of them (tho probly cuz Switzerland is a small market)

And the no educational requirement, it's still kind of implied that you need a BSc

[vapid jay]

Hi guys

I wanted some advice on working on open source projects. I am currently working as Data Engineer/ Python Developer and have a quite an experience building APIs using Python and creating ETL pipelines etc.

I wanted to improve in my career and look for new roles that would pay more, and wanted to sort of understand if Open Source is helpful to a career

[pastel thunder]

if esops are 10k, does it mean employee can purchase 10k worth of stock at reduced price, right?

[turbid bobcat]

Not sure if it helps career wise. But if you are ever looking for someone to collaborate on a project ping me. I know a couple other people who are also into it.

[buoyant seal]

open source and pet projects have indirect value

• learning using new tech and approaches in pet projects and open source -> u gain opportunities to be asked applying it at work (and eventually having your expertise growing further)
• u can build portfolio web site describing all your open source/pet projects activity and attaching to your resume
• your can use same site as your own blog, showing original written articles/ideas u have (and serving as extra to your resume too) + (also increases your networking)

[buoyant seal]

the learning curve for everything is similar to this
With concentrating in pet projects and open source on stuff you like, you build/correct your career towards desired stuff

[gritty rivet]

Ask the employer

[pastel thunder]

just asking by curiosity

[fringe sphinx]

I agree, but I also think there's a carry-over: that going through this curve once (even for something un-work-related) makes it easier to do the same. So, even if you're not "building your career", just achieving a high level in one topic is very important. That's at least my interview philosophy: I look for people who've gone deep into one topic... the topic doesn't matter as much as their experience.

[obtuse sun]

Hey there! I'm Sarthak , I've been tinkering with all sorts of projects along this academic rollercoaster, both flying solo and teaming up with brilliant minds. My coding arsenal includes Python, C/C++, JavaScript, and the dynamic duo of HTML/CSS. And oh, I've been dipping my toes into the frameworks pool with React, Node.js, MongoDB, Express, and I'm currently on a date with Next.js.As part of my past experiences, I had the opportunity to contribute as a Frontend Developer Intern at Hudbil Private Limited. In this role, I played a key role in the development of an end-to-end website, using React, Gsap, and Framer Motion for animations. I am also a passionate chess player. I have competed in Division level tournaments multiple times. Currently holding an online rating of around 2000 Elo.

Crrently looking for any internship,part-time work

[pine sleet]

Have you been looking on places like LinkedIn and Indeed?

[hearty island]

i vouch for linkedin. gotten me nearly all my internships

[turbid bobcat]

I think I've aced the pre-interview test thing. Super easy.

[gritty rivet]

Understood... Everything to do with stock options and such can be very complicated and confusing and varied between companies. You can read up on how things work but I've generally been told it's worth reviewing with a professional tax advisor

[gritty rivet]

Asking for work and recruitment is against the rules here, but check the channel description for some Python job boards

My company has hired interns through Handshake but I've heard mixed things about it. And that's in the US, these things will be country-specific

[last oriole]

I'm currently on a python full stack development course because Google tells me its a good career and i didn't know what to do after completing college and i have to learn new skills because only have a diploma. So is it really a good career and what are my chances for getting a job with python skill and a diploma in computer engineering

[turbid bobcat]

From my experience, the chances of getting a job are proportional to the amount of hands on experience you have.

[slender sleet]

Here is what I did for the last 8 months:

june:
started python, complete basics on coursera. did partially with dedication and cheated on the final portion to just complete them.
july:
wasted fully searching for bootcamp.
august:
I just coded random things but forgot mostly now.
september:
joined bootcamp worked with 70% dedication and learned Java basics with good understanding.
october:
left bootcamp because I believed i can do it myself.
november:
got viral fever took rest for 20 days and wasted time in random sht.*
december:
took CS50 but cheated on some chapters to complete them quickly and didn't make any recaps of what I learned, so it faded.
january:
I learned HTML and CSS for the first 5 days and started a portfolio project, but lost interest for the last 13 days, so I have not touched it again.

I feel so down and unclear about my future. I wasted 6 months already, gained imperfection in everything, not completed anything, and did not touch my project for the last 15 days. Idk if this is burnout or not, but I feel very anxious and hopeless.

if any tech professionals or anyone who can guide me or mentor or have any suggestions please dm or reply to this message🙏

[turbid bobcat]

The trick is to start a project that you are passionate about. Makes it easier to learn and follow through.

[gritty rivet]

Look on LinkedIn etc. to understand what opportunities exist in your local job market

[gritty rivet]

Do you have a degree? If not that's where I would focus the most effort

[last oriole]

I don't have any experience I only completed diploma 3 months ago and now I'm finished 20day in python full stack development course

[turbid bobcat]

Hands-on experience comes in many forms, personal projects, internships and work experience.

[last oriole]

I'm planning on doing some personal projects for my resume after completing python course

[turbid bobcat]

I thought you guys learned at least a couple languages in CS tho, are you sure the extra course is necessary?

For reference, I come from physics course and everyone I know from my year knows at least 3 programming languages.

[last oriole]

Yes I learn c and c ++ in college but not to that extend to build something they just tell you to learn a language and make a project yourself for the final project. I build reddit using flutter and firebase for final project by watching a youtube video most of my classmates buy projects from companies for passing can't blame it's really a helpless situations and give you very short time

Thats why I'm learning python

[turbid bobcat]

Wait did you build a reddit clone in cpp ? If you have the code I'd put it in GitHub as portfolio.

[last oriole]

Yes not btech it's diploma

[last oriole]

Using flutter and firebase

[mint oracle]

Diploma in cs?

[turbid bobcat]

Oh, sorry I misread

[mint oracle]

Go for engineering then(lateral entry)

[last oriole]

Computer engineering

[turbid bobcat]

In any case, Python and JavaScript/TypeScript are pretty solid for Fullstack.

[last oriole]

I'm already 21 3 more years I'm 24 or 25 I can't do that now because of some personal problems so I have to find job quick that's why taking a python course

[zinc violet]

Hey everyone, Is it worth me enrolling into the Harvard c50 python class and paying $299 for the verified certificate?

[mint oracle]

Harvard cs50 python is good course to start but paying for fookin certificate that's has no value

[turbid bobcat]

Highly context dependent. Just keep in mind that you can learn anything for free on the internet.

[mint oracle]

I think u can go for engineering i can feel ur pain and pressure u faced but sometime u need to think on long statement

[zinc violet]

Say if i do want to become a software engineer, can i just do that without university or do jobs looks for people that have gone to study at university?

[gritty rivet]

I wouldn't pay for the cert unless you're doing it out of generosity, but the course itself seems good

[turbid bobcat]

The consensus that I've seen is that uni is the way to go

[gritty rivet]

It's extremely difficult with no degree. Even a non-CS degree helps significantly

[zinc violet]

Okay thanks for the information

[mint oracle]

DO u get any plaecment through college?

Tcs , infosys hire lot of diploma guys and they also offer btech and mtech

[last oriole]

Maybe ill take btech while working

[fringe sphinx]

My usual advice (for those without opportunity or privilege of a degree program who want to get into tech): learn technical skills and apply them (write code, do projects), a cert won’t get you a SWE job but can help you land an adjacent job (QA, support, whatever). Find an entry point, and keep learning.

[mint oracle]

My friend is also a diploma holder but in ece and now it's working in tcs

[last oriole]

The placement cell is not good at all that why i am now on this course they offer placement

[mint oracle]

R u from south/North?

[last oriole]

Yes

[last oriole]

South and you?

[mint oracle]

But it;s very difficult to find job in india

[last oriole]

True I seen a video there like 1000 people attending an interview for 21 open positions lol

[fringe sphinx]

I don’t understand the ‘but’ tho: the statement is- if you can’t, then work towards your goal any means you can.

[turbid bobcat]

i think that's actually not that many, I'm seeing positions in some places with 1000+ applications for 1 vacancy

[fringe sphinx]

If you can (get a degree), then do that.

[mint oracle]

dm me ur resume i have some diploma holder friends i can dm ur resume if they can help

[near ocean]

Why QA specifically?
I guess the easiest way to be to apply to manual QA positions and from there take on automation work with selenium or other tools as a software dev in test and from there jump to software dev

One of my team members got on the team this way

[buoyant seal]

1. it is good that u learn stuff after getting diploma. Diploma alone is always usually not enough.
2. python full stack development? ergh... call me biased, but i prefer to see people concentrating on something more specific first. Like Backend development, Frontend development, Desktop dev, Android development, Ios development.

Full stack is jack of all trades and really harmful i think for beginners. If u are having many years of experience and self studies then it is another story to be multi role person
Usually if u interview fullstack dev, u a very often promised for disappointment in level of skills (regardless to which rank/level he applies)

[buoyant seal]

Although to be fair, to be full stack python dev is nothing really difficult i guess, and its own good path too
you are just highly likely will be expected to learn frontend properly on this path / and modern frontend js frameworks
So.. a lot of extra stuff to learn in order to qualify
As there is quite a difference between python backend and js frontend (learning related ecosystems and best pratices related to languages)

It is easier to concentrate on something one for first years of career

[fringe sphinx]

Also depends on your current skills. If you have no technical knowledge, then a manual job is where you need to start (see mar's comment above). If you have some programming skills, as mar suggested, do some automation projects using Selenium. Maybe learn a bit about CI/CD tools. Read a book on software process / engineering lifecycle. Technical skills will help you stand out... and this is one area where certifications can help stand out.

Note that some QA roles are more or less equal with SWE roles, so you have to look carefully at the job description to see what they're actually looking for.

[turbid bobcat]

honest question, would it be fair of me to report as spam the messages from recruiters who clearly haven't read my profile before reaching out ?

[near ocean]

No that definitely is spam

[turbid bobcat]

alright, I think I'm reporting then.

[fringe sphinx]

What country?

Don't know that market at all, but generally: look and study job postings. Look for patterns and keywords - what technical keywords come up a lot?

[near ocean]

You can definitely start in a manual qa job and learn/ask for work with automation from the inside

[fringe sphinx]

(and I agree with ^)

[near ocean]

It doesnt pay well or is something people generally want but it will get you somewhat paid and you can get your foot in the door

Just dont stay there for too long, you want to get an actual dev job right away even if its still in QA

[fringe sphinx]

Those are general phrases... look for specific keywords. Like "selenium", "jenkins", "aws", etcf.

For example, a random qa role I found on linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/search/?currentJobId=3798867446 mentions: "Jira, Confluence and Zephyr"

and "508/WCAG/ADA guidelines"

Also, work your network: anyone you know, friends of family, etc. You just need one person to take a chance on you, and give you that 1st year of experience for your resume.

Once you get 1-2 years, the opportunities open up.

[stable rampart]

Hi everyone, I have been laid off recently and I am in urgent need of work. If anyone can help me it would be great!

[last oriole]

Whats QA

[near ocean]

Quality Assurance

[last oriole]

What do they do

[near ocean]

They test the product and services either automatically or manually or both

[last oriole]

Does freshers have a chance for that role?

[deft herald]

Absolutely

[near ocean]

Sure, manual QA doesnt require any technical skills

[last oriole]

I need to learn how to use linked it I'm not used to it

[fringe sphinx]

I don't know if this helps but, try to talk about them: instead of "I'm looking for a job", it's "I want to learn more about your industry, your job, your story, etc". Maybe at the end throw in a "I'm looking to get my foot in the door somewhere". Let the conversation happen naturally, and learn from everyone you meet.

[deft herald]

That sucks. Unfortunately we can't do any recruiting or job posting here. What country are you in?

[stable rampart]

India

Basically I am trying everywhere but I am not getting anywhere

[fringe sphinx]

Old sales advice is: never have lunch alone. In other words - your free time is an opportunity to talk to someone.

[mint oracle]

Holy shit lot of indians here now I can smell competition to get job

[last oriole]

Haha

[hearty island]

indian here too, but i'm in the US

[last oriole]

He is talking about jobless Indians lol

[stable rampart]

I don't know what to do by this time and losing hope. I am getting calls from the HR, they asks every detail and cut the call by saying they will mail the interview date and everything and I never get the mail back.

[mint oracle]

Degree?

[hearty island]

i got fucked over by my own graduation date yesterday lol

[stable rampart]

BTech in Electronics and Computer Science

[mint oracle]

College

[stable rampart]

Kalinga Institute of Industrial Technology (KIIT)

[mint oracle]

Okay final yr

[stable rampart]

Graduated in 2022

[mint oracle]

Go for master like me

Prepare for gate

[turbid bobcat]

Got the invite for interview already. Is it normal to start with a technical interview ? I'm used to hr interview being the first one

[mint oracle]

Yeah

[stable rampart]

Yes, it very normal

[turbid bobcat]

Swear to God I've always done hr, technical, offer

Like in hr they'll go over your resume and other basic stuff. Then they do a technical assessment.

Probly just a coincidence ig

[near ocean]

HR has always been last for me

[turbid bobcat]

They didn't say what they're gonna hit me with. I think I'm just gonna assume leetcode.

[deft herald]

You don't have to assume. I've had good experience with asking specifically if there's anything i should prepare for the interview

usually they just come back and say "yeah go through the job description" but sometimes they come back with more specifics like "you might be asked about linked lists" or "you might be asked about unit testing" or whatever

[turbid bobcat]

Uhm, I might ask then. I'm prepped for any kind of leetcode or questions on my resume.

[deft herald]

What's the gist of the job description?

[turbid bobcat]

I was a bit shaky on the bash related question tbh, so I might practice that

[turbid bobcat]

MLOps position, asks for AWS stuff and experience with data

[deft herald]

Ok cool. Well i guess i can't help 😄

[turbid bobcat]

No worries, anything past getting a callback is extra at this point. I'm happy to try my luck and will take the offer if I get it. But won't be bummed out if I don't make it.

MLOps is not really the focus of my career too, so I gotta think carefully about it b4 commiting

[static yacht]

Lol this makes me nostalgic, when covid hit i was in heard smth in an article phase now I'm in development phase

[static yacht]

Job market is trash right now man don't lose hope. What field are you looking for jobs in?

[stable rampart]

Software Engineering

[stoic raft]

Hello, is it only in my country where I find few job offers as a python dev? For example, I have more job offers for .NET developers than for python developers

[near ocean]

No its not

[hearty island]

i done fucked up

uhg is refusing to update me on what's going on, even after i emailed them

i'm just applying to other jobs out of anxiety

i think i'm gonna get ghosted

[gritty rivet]

Jobs where Python is the primary language are probably a lot less common than jobs where it is a required language.

For example if you're supporting a full stack Django app, you probably need JS too

[peak halo]

I do NLP, and Python is the only language I use. but this is a scientific occupation rather than a software development one.

[turbid bobcat]

Is an MLOps role considered relevant experience for ML Engineering roles ?

I'm aware there's a ton of overlap between the three major roles

[dreamy shadow]

Jesus, market is really bad right now.

[turbid bobcat]

At least Europe seems to be doing a bit better. Haven't seen a lot of friction yet.

Might be too early to judge tho

[peak halo]

those might be bots?

[turbid bobcat]

Actually, I think I did see something like that the other day. A repo with a bot that auto applies to jobs

[peak halo]

What skills are you thinking of within ML ops?

[turbid bobcat]

I'm trying to gather if this role I'm interviewing for will be relevant for MLE later on. They specify that both DevOps and data skills are relevant for it. Let me see if I can get the details

"feature pipelines, automated data creation, training and deployment pipelines, model and endpoint monitoring "

"help design, test, deploy, monitor, and maintain production-scale ML models and cutting-edge ML applications, primarily in natural language processing"

So the thing that worries me is that no ML framework is listed in the requirements.

[peak halo]

My department would value those skills in someone who also has the requisite theoretical ML knowledge.

[turbid bobcat]

That's certainly reassuring.

I don't like being on the purely exploratory side of things all the time. I can do data science or analytics, but I prefer to build things. So MLE sounds like the perfect role.

But at the same time I don't want to be too far away from the cool stuff. So MLOps might be putting too much space between me and ML.

[near ocean]

How would the managers in the chat feel if a dev of theirs asks for a raise and then leaves in a couple months?
Is that a bridge burnt?

[deft herald]

I would think "damn, i should have given them that raise"

• not a manager though

[near ocean]

What if you do but they still leave

[deft herald]

then who cares?

A good manager would think "best of luck to them. I better start finding someone to hire"

[near ocean]

I care 😩 (the dev in this scenario)

[deft herald]

You need to know that you owe your company nothing. You work for them and they pay you. end of deal

[near ocean]

Sure but that doesnt mean i want every past relationship with managers to end up badly

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, that's a different q... on the first q: I had an engineer do me wrong, when I've bent over backwards to accommodate their personal issues, and they left immediately when they returned to work.

[deft herald]

If you decide to leave your job for any reason whatsoever, as long as your not under a contract then you should face zero repercussions in doing so

[fringe sphinx]

That really pissed me off and that was a burned bridge.

Negotiating for a salary raise? Conventional wisdom is: they're going to leave anyway. No harm done, if we gave a raise and they still leave.

[smoky quest]

Why would someone be angry as long as you aren't an asshole?
That said, you would be another statisticdata point that proves that just giving raises does not work

[deft herald]

If they take it personally, then they're not a good manager imo

[fringe sphinx]

It's different if we pay a bonus, or relocation fee, or something fixed. But, just leaving? Nah, that's life.

[near ocean]

Ok cool, maybe its worth it trying to push for a raise then
The plan is to leave but that'll take some time, people are telling me to ask for a raise anyway

[buoyant seal]

telling u will leave is actually a valid strategy getting your raise 😅
for last salary raise that was witheld from me despite promise, i waited generously like 4 months for them to catch up
with pretty much also explicitely telling when i will start looking for new job and planning to leave
communicating issue helped me to get the raise i wished
and i canceled leaving (good that i did it)

[smoky quest]

There is a lot of nuance in your relationship with your manager, team and org lost in this discussion here. That includes your performance, how your manager sees you as well as how much he would have to go to bat for you.
It's neither in favor or against, just some contextual information to be mindful about.

There is a sales say about never ever ever giving anything away for free. That applies also to raises 😉

(and also in terms of motivation, at the scale of the compensation of engineers, a raise won't be enough to retain and get people interested)

[near ocean]

Some domains and tech are doomed to high turnover
My current company is stuck in this regard

[deft herald]

Not to mention actual power for your manager to give you a raise. I know my direct line manager probably has zero capability to just hand out raises

[minor sage]

Part of this is pure game theory

If we contextualize this as being offered a raise vs asking for one, then the only alternative to taking it and then leaving would be to say "No, I don't want it and I'm leaving in a month anyways"

Even if you left the last part out they'd just infer it. In my mind, what you make is what's needed for you to be there right now

If they're giving you the raise, it's because it's worth it for them to pay you that amount, flat out. The cost of that wage is less than the value of the work. Leaving shortly after doesn't change that calculus.

[brazen trail]

it's not a big deal if you find a new opportunity, a good manager will be happy for you

[muted bridge]

I’m currently learning AI, c#, and java in college, and I’m wondering if I should try learning React on my own or just focus on projects involving the languages I have at hand atm

[buoyant seal]

With Java u can make web server backend, desktop apps and android apps.
this is stable language with not a lot of changes through years.
highly likely it will remain with you through career.

in C# u can make server backend and desktop (windwos oriented) apps too
highly likely this will remain with not very changed through years too

React on another hand is entirely different experience. JS based react is the worst of modern frameworks piled together for quickest stuff building.
it is a mess. That is burning hot with its rapid changes. At the moment of your graduation your JS/ts/React skills have a good chances to become severaly outdated
Learning such stuff is a time commitment essentially to a very quick paced in its changes ecosystem, which is entered first by all people from online courses which chose frontend as easiest path.
Without typescript today it is barely readable code that is true wonders how it is written and maintained.

TLDR: if u have time for many years of education, i don't very recommend learning react and better concentrating on becoming good with stuff like Java.
P.S. at the same time u could still try React and check may be it is stuff u like.
P.P.S. if u really wish React, then at least learn with Typescript (valid on the moment of today, but js typing may change in few years)

[muted bridge]

i see

I'll avoid react for now though I don't really know how to take my java/c# projects out of simple console-based calculators

[buoyant seal]

Disclaimer: that is very opinionated opinion of person that coded in Vue.js (another modern js framework), sees React projects at his work, and in general coded in default Python
and tries to migrate from his usage of dynamic typed languages to static typed ones.
I am very much of an opinion that writing code without types is making your own hell for yourself to maintain through years. Hell created by yourself.

[golden summit]

Any tips/tricks for going to technical interviews (Specifically one that's giving some form of skills test) for a c++ Jr role

[buoyant seal]

project ideas:
https://codingchallenges.fyi/challenges/intro
https://nedbatchelder.com/text/kindling.html

for java backend developer role:
U coud learn Spring/Spring boot backend framework + how to work without it
learn how to use it with Sqlite3/Postgres/Some relational database (learn using raw sql too)
learn how to use with some message queue stuff
learn how to use some common CLI building framework
learn how to make some simple desktop apps, there is common std solution there
learn how to use docker
learn how to use linux and deploy at it

building some backend first web sites / building Discord bot can be part of those projects

for C# backend:
Same as for java, except u use .Net Core framework (and try to deploy at linux servers too)

for C# game dev:
Unity stuff.

for java android:
Android studio and building with it? 😅

for C# android:
I know that games from unity are compilable for android at least too there!
not sure what can C# build for android without unity though

for Java/C# desktop stuff:
not really knowing stuff supposed to be learnt but u can ask it in java/C# communities
find them there https://github.com/mhxion/awesome-discord-communities

[buoyant seal]

TLDR:
Essentially nice for projects to go out of simple ones
is to learn some interface building solutions.
How to use desktop gui (covered for java std here https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/head-first-java/9781492091646/ )

how to use CLI building framework (they take care of all message managements and answers)

and to learn unit testing, so that your code scaled 3 times better
https://www.amazon.com/Unit-Testing-Principles-Practices-Patterns/dp/1617296279
https://www.amazon.com/Test-Driven-Development-Kent-Beck/dp/0321146530

[buoyant seal]

Once u have interface building boilerplaters, building something with them is much simpler. Ideas start to spark usually.
In case of java, there is a room for infinity fun with building minecraft mods 😊
There is even book to learn that https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/minecraft-modding-with/9781491918883/ (Modders half migrated from Forge to Fabrica though, but there is no clear telling what they chose today. They look like more torn apart between Forge and Fabrica today)

[onyx basin]

Hello, I'm a High-School student, learnt python for the past year and I've just settled on data science, I've learnt the followings:

Tkinter
SQLAlchemy
Flask
Basic HTML & CSS
Web Development and Frameworks like bootstrap
Using API's and creating them
Web Scraping
Pandas
some builtin modules
and ALOT of projects

and I'm currently learning

advanced pandas
plotly
matplotlib
seaborn
scikit
numpy
(in short, data science)

and I don't know what do I want to learn next..
do I continue in advanced topics in python? although I don't know any programming language except it?
or do I look for other languages?
I know it mostly depends on the career I'm willing to choose, but I don't really know all the careers that are out there..
any advices?

[muted bridge]

wth

ok this is cool stuff I’ll check it out

making minecraft mods sounds cool, I was just looking into making a chess engine with c# and a gui library so I’ll have to think a little more

[muted bridge]

have you tried going into web dev?

[onyx basin]

not deeply, though I do know how to make a decent website

[muted bridge]

actually, the c# I’m learning comes from my game design class do naturally I’ll be using unity. As for the java, when do you think I can start learning the backend stuff? The course practically began 2 weeks ago and I’m still unraveling stuff like lists/methods (although it does come in pretty easily from prior language knowledge)

[buoyant seal]

my university did not teach me job role related stuff directly. (probably because it is too much specific)
it is up to you to decide where u wish to invest yourself and learn it in your own time i think

[muted bridge]

tbh at your stage you’re probably qualified enough to land internships the second you step into college, but you probably should branch out to other languages

[onyx basin]

so continuing into data science won't be a good idea?
at least it won't be as good as learning other languages and other feilds?

[muted bridge]

alright, thanks

[quartz niche]

Ideally you'd want to figure out your end goal then plan accordingly
start by figuring what career/field you want to work in
then research what languages/tools are used alongside python in them
As well as what degree and majors they require to get hired

[muted bridge]

can’t really say, I haven’t done any data science, but you usually want to learn at least one OOP language

[onyx basin]

I don't really know all the careers/feilds out there.. is there a youtube video or a blog on website that explains all of'em?

[quartz niche]

There's alot so if you're not in a rush, whenever you got some free time check out some YouTube vids or browse the Web for blogs to find out what the job entails & if it interests you then decide on the you're most interested in pursuing

[onyx basin]

isn't python an OOP language?
or did you mean I need to learn a OOP language that is low-level such as the C family?

[onyx basin]

thanks!

[turbid bobcat]

py is multiparadigm ig

[onyx basin]

do you think it's a good idea to see how much the field is needed and how much is it's revenue? and take my decision depending on them in addition to understand every field and if I want it or not?

[turbid bobcat]

You in highschool, you got like, infinite time ahead of you

But I'd learn other languages for sure

[onyx basin]

yeah😅 and I'm planning to use it wisely

[turbid bobcat]

cpp creator encourages learning a good number of them

[quartz niche]

Sure, it wouldn't hurt to know the demand for a job you want will grow in future & your potential salary just ensure it's a job you are genuinely interested in

[turbid bobcat]

this

[onyx basin]

languages in general or in C family?

[turbid bobcat]

look for variety in programming paradigms and levels of abstraction

[onyx basin]

thanks!!
so I will look out for careers and then for the programming languages and topics it's related to

[turbid bobcat]

each new paradigm teaches you a new way of thinking, lower level languages will teach you about how stuff works down to the metal

[quartz niche]

No problem
Just be sure to carefully research your chosen path well before diving in head first & you'll be fine
Goodluck

[turbid bobcat]

as for data science, it's cool that you're learning and good for brain for sure and I certainly encourage that you continue to learn, but I reckon you'll hit a ceil since you'll eventually require college level math to grasp certain concepts

[onyx basin]

thank you so much!

thank you so much @quartz niche

[onyx basin]

Oh, I won't dive deep into it then... Will only learn the basic's basics

[turbid bobcat]

I mean, it depends on your learning style really.

If you're easily discouraged when you hit something that's beyond your current knowledge level, it's best to keep a breadth-like approach. And this is likely the sensible thing anyway.

But if you don't mind feeling "dumb" from time to time and have the energy for it, it can be beneficial to face those things head on. Even if you don't win, the lost can teach you something.

Both approaches are valid imo

[toxic thicket]

Hi! I'm kinda green with regards of python so; I was wondering if it's any open source project to participate in as to build my knowledge and portfolio regarding programming in python?

[onyx basin]

So in conclusion, learning only 1 language wouldn't be good in my case, I would need to learn other languages and topics.. but to know what languages and topics I want to learn, I would need to know the career I'm interested in..
After taking the decision of my career, I will see all languages, topics, frameworks, modules, etc, that will help me achieve my goals on that career..
And ofc learning some languages that interest me as well as it would help me through some stuff (for example pinescript and mql4)
This would be my roadmap till I start college

Thanks y'all for helping me out and giving advices 🙏

[vapid jay]

[turbid bobcat]

Completed an internship in X at Y, supervised by Professor Z, who notably co-founded W with the {year} Nobel Prize laureate in {slightly more advanced version of X }.

I just found out about it, and I'm considering very briefly mentioning it like that under my BSc.

However, X does not relate to ML or tech. Is this worth putting there ?

[fringe sphinx]

What does W have to do with X or Y?

[turbid bobcat]

I believe the research done at Y feeds into W.

But the internship otherwise does not relate very much with W

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, seems like a lot of words about the professor and not much about you/what you did. But you could say something: supervised by Professor X (Nobel Laureate/Cofounded X-Men)

[turbid bobcat]

uhm, yeah I think I'm gonna leave it out then, I have enough stuff of my own to put there, honestly I just think it's super cool that a professor of mine is researching at such a high level

[fringe sphinx]

I think it’s worth keeping the Nobel laureate part: it’s a good conversation starter in an interview

Particularly if you know something about their work:etc

[turbid bobcat]

I know a thing or two, but it's very complicated stuff, I'm not very fluent in it. I just used the technology they invented to do some experiments.

[brazen island]

I think it matters (a lot) more if it's some academics adjacent role because they world is quite small / insular.

[muted bridge]

quick question, what's the best ide for java?

[near ocean]

Thats not a careers related question nor a python one, #ot1-perplexing-regexing

[muted bridge]

my bad

[turbid bobcat]

You mean like Research Scientist or Research Engineer ? I've been eying up ML Scientist roles, which I assume is a more research oriented version of MLE/DS.

[brazen island]

Yeah, "everyone" in my niche domain knows each other but the brand value of a name doesn't stretch further than that. Could still have an impact if you mention they're a laureate 🤷

[fringe sphinx]

In corporate world: if I saw that in a resume, I'd ask a few probing questions about your interactions with the Professor.

[turbid bobcat]

Uhm, I mean yes, but their thing is in an unrelated niche.

Tbh, I'm way more pationate about engineering anyway. Putting things together and having an almost immediate impact in people's life is so much more rewarding than most research, I feel.

[fringe sphinx]

In other words, it'd be a prompt / something for me to ask about... and it's valuable if you can back it up with a story or something about the professor. But if all the answers were; "I dunno, I didn't really talk to the professor", then it'd be pointless

[turbid bobcat]

I have a couple of interesting interactions.

But nothing that highlights my skills or anything like that

[brazen island]

Then I'd leave it out honestly

[hearty island]

united health group is depressing me tbh

[turbid bobcat]

Makes sense. I mean I was an intern, I kinda just did what I was told and helped around.

[turbid bobcat]

What happened ?

[hearty island]

nothing, that’s the problem. radio silence on their end

[turbid bobcat]

Don't think about it ig. Unless it's time to follow up

[hearty island]

i emailed them on Wednesday and called them on thursday

[brazen island]

I only review interns / master thesis students resumés but I really like the less-is-more principle

[hearty island]

and they never got back to me

[brazen island]

There's definitely a bound on how low you can go but a to the point CV is nice imo. That's how I do mine as well

[turbid bobcat]

Was heavily advised to be brief the other day, and I have relevant work XP which takes precedence.

[brazen island]

Would be an interesting topic to research but I have strong suspicions the time spent on a CV has a pretty low correlation with its length. That would mean that fluff means the high impact / relevant stuff gets less attention.

[turbid bobcat]

I wouldn't insist too much, I think the follow up is meant to be like a soft reminder. Just be patient.

[turbid bobcat]

I noticed that the more I work on it the shorter I can make it while transmitting more of what is relevant.

But it does take work.

[fringe sphinx]

My "screen" is very keyword driven: I look for very particular things. A lot of resume space is often wasted with stuff that's not relevant to the hiring manager: I generally don't care about the results, I care about -what you did- and -how you did it-

So, a lot of long resumes are filled with stuff I don't care about. And I think long resumes tend to miss on my keywords (ie: a long job description is very likely to forget to mention the what/how)

[brazen island]

I personally really don't care for the "optimized process by X %" thing I keep seeing here. Maybe that's cultural, maybe it's recommended in the US but I think it isn't good.

[fringe sphinx]

I'm the same. I don't care about that. That said, I do like backwards_propagations result about reducing parameters in a model.. that seems interesting.

[turbid bobcat]

well, good to know I'm in the right direction ahaha

[brazen island]

Depends on the role for me.

In my job the challenges are typically 1) engineering 2) "creativity 3) doing things that are methodologically correct. For us modelling is seldom the bottleneck. Reducing a model by X % would be on the nice-to-have side rather than the necessity. It'd matter more for us that you got to a position where you can build one in the first place 😄

If it's more "fundamental" research than mine, then I think it would really matter yes.

[fringe sphinx]

Think of it this way: first, you need to get through a screen. Keywords are important here. Then, the resume will shape your interview: the interviewer will use your resume as prompts, and ask you questions about it: preparing good explanations and stories for everything on your resume is very helpful. It drives me nuts when I asked about something on a resume and the candidate has nothing (no substance) to say.

[brazen island]

This is a detail though imo! I don't think it hurts to have at all, it probably wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me either way.

[calm fiber]

Hi

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, what I meant was: it's more about the goal than the actual number. I don't care if your goal was to save $$ for the business... but if you had a technical goal (reducing parameters), that's something to talk about.

[vapid jay]

Hey @turbid bobcat I want to contribute to this open source project: https://github.com/nasa/PyTDA

I have no idea about Turbulence and stuff, but i want to upgrade the python version for this to run for upto Python 3.12

[fringe sphinx]

This project hasn't been updated in 2 years.

[vapid jay]

What does that mean?

[brazen island]

Why do you want to contribute to it?

[vapid jay]

Sorry, I am new to open source contribution etc.

I am contributing to it because I like space tech stuff and find all this stuff to do with planes/ radars cool. Also, wanted to do an open source by NASA

Thought it would look good on my resume

[brazen island]

Personally I think that's putting the cart before the horse. I don't think contributing to open source should be a goal.

Contributions ideally come from using something first and discovering bugs or ways to extend the features for other users. Hunting projects to contribute to is a bit strange. Maintainers also need to put in a lot of time to "guide" people to contributing to their repos as well.

[fringe sphinx]

Is your contribution: "Make this run on 3.12"?

If so, I'd probably ask maintainer if they'll accept a PR. Maybe open an issue first or reach out to the maintainer.

[vapid jay]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, currently it has deprecated packages such as distutil, which has been replaced by setuptools now.

I see a lot of comments in this repo saying tested and working upto Python 3.7. I just want to upgrade python version to Python 3.12.

I think it's a tiny contribution that would help my resume etc.

[vapid jay]

hmmmm

[fringe sphinx]

This seems like a good contribution idea to me. I'd reach out / email the maintainer(s) first. They might say something like: "No, we're going to kill this project and don't have time to review a PR"

[vapid jay]

Where could I find their email?

[brazen island]

Or you just make an issue on the repo

[brazen island]

But really, I think this is important. All my meaningful contributions to OSS came from using the thing first, identifying a need and solving it tbh.

[vapid jay]

Oh okay, I thought that upgrading to Python 3.12 is a need for other people anyway

[brazen island]

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know personally since I don't know the package 😄

[vapid jay]

I have submitted this issue:
https://github.com/nasa/PyTDA/issues/17

So, i just wait now, right?

[brazen island]

This video kind of sums up what I mean. I had this feeling for a while and I'm glad I'm not alone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nY_cy8zcO4

Related to Goodhart's law ofc: “When a metric becomes a target, it ceases to be a good metric.”

[slender sleet]

Hey, yeah, I've completed a bachelor's in accounts and spent some time on my dad's business. However, due to the changes caused by COVID become unemployed, I developed an interest in tech. I'm trying to switch careers, so I've been learning for the last 8 months.

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I agree with the premise here: it's no different than doing projects solely for portfolio purposes. If it's just a throwaway task, with no "arc" of learning, it falls flat / useless.

[vapid jay]

Fair enough.

[fringe sphinx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nY_cy8zcO4&t=260s relevant excerpt: "If your goal is just contributing to open source... didn't want to learn, didn't want to improve their skills, didn't want to learn the hard thing, they wanted to use OSS as a hack to get a job... [this is bad]"

There's a bit of dumb stuff here, like "this is going to break OSS", ~~but ~~ and this is true for any learning endeavour... so it's a bit of a hot take / straw man argument to me.

[brazen island]

It's different for me, I'm a bit sensitive to things that may look deceitful.

As in, if someone has 10 contributions to important repos and they're all fixing typos and they frame it as "I contributed to these 10 repos." and I find out that's the case I'd be really upset and reject them.

On the other hand, if someone fixes typos and does small jobs here and there + frames it correctly I'd love this as a learning experience. It's also a ungrateful work that people don't really want to do.

[turbid bobcat]

I'll usually just give it a read before the interview, just to make sure I haven't forgotten what I did. But this is the one part I don't have any trouble with in interviews. I actually love these parts where I'm asked about my stuff and get to talk about it for like an hour or so.

[turbid bobcat]

uhmmm. I actually think it might be arguable in this case. Like, isn't that something very specific to the necessities of each company ? The whole objective of my org is to enable developers to do open source, we give out resources and stuff like that. When it comes to LLMs, one big issue seems to be that they are too big for consumer hardware, apparently I can't easily run the best lamma on an avg consumer grade GPU, so it makes sense within the mission of the org for me to pursue ways to make language models smaller and more accessible to individual developers

[brazen island]

That's what I meant. It depends on the role 🙂

[night mountain]

Bro what are the cons of choosing CS

Help pls

[peak halo]

as compared to what?

[night mountain]

Cs maj

[deft herald]

Choosing CS compared to CS?

[night mountain]

Anything

[peak halo]

right. if you didn't pursue a CS degree, what else might you do with that time? because you can only talk about the cons of getting a CS degree in those terms.

if your goal is to get a job as a developer, it's an easy question: there is nothing else you could do in those four years that would get you closer to employment than a CS degree.

[night mountain]

Jotted

@peak halo

[peak halo]

idk what jotted is

[deft herald]

I think like "noted"

To jot: to write down; take note of

[mighty cosmos]

I’m about to start applying for jobs but I’m concerned.. how do I determine if I am ready for a job.. I’m 100% self taught. Could someone lend some advice, thanks!

[turbid bobcat]

Just apply, but don't go overboard. I've seen senior engineers apply 1000 times with 1 or 2 responses. Don't let it get to that point, get your resume reviewed waaay b4 that.

https://www.reddit.com/r/EngineeringResumes/comments/1724hir/i_have_used_this_resume_to_get_a_90_callback_rate/

[smoky quest]

Yep, you are pretty much ready when you are able to pass interviews.
That implies getting call backs when applying, which itself implies having an interesting resume with a combination of education/projects/experience. That also implies being successful at the types of questions asked in interviews (leetcode, design, hands on projects, behavioral,etc.)

[turbid bobcat]

The goal is to assess your technical experience, collaboration and communication across different teams and geographies, and ability to design a high-level system.

uhmmmm, that's gonna be the next interview. design a high level system, I wonder what they mean specifically

[near ocean]

inb4 design twitter

[turbid bobcat]

also, it's an hr-like interview where they ask me questions on my resume, so it falls into the usual format after all

I might look into system design in the context of MLOps, but otherwise im gonna wing it, dont see how I can possibly prepare for the other things

[fringe sphinx]

Advice; try to develop a few good ‘stories’ that you can use/reference. Even just one good complex project that you can use to talk about adversity, problem solving, teamwork/collab, etc.

[turbid bobcat]

Thanks. I'll probably choose what I've been doing and something from my previous role, since they're still quite fresh on my mind.

[mighty cosmos]

also im trying to build an app and im not a designer... how can i make this better...

[gritty rivet]

If you're not applying for jobs that require visual design skills, then nobody cares that you don't have them

You can find templates you like to borrow from, you can discuss your project with someone who can help, etc. but it's not worth focusing a lot of effort on if it's not your intent to do so

[smoky quest]

you can go pretty far with a library of components like material ui or mantine, etc.

[ivory compass]

I have a app idea I used. Essentially help create UI that others can use to understand data better. Instead of seeing a bunch of data tables, why don't we see some animation or even graphs/charts. I definately know thats a skill people like

For UI, there are different areas ofc like SEO, design/developer etc etc. It's up to you to decide

[minor sage]

"Data visualization" is a relevant term

Basically a whole little sub-field of programming

[vapid jay]

How much python should I know before I start applying to cs internships

and any other langauges I should learn? Im hoping to get my hands on any cs internship that I can get not really picky in what field its in.

[smoky quest]

enough python that you could contribute to the projects related to your internship

[gritty rivet]

You have to look at whatever internships are available in whatever part of the world you are in to figure out what they might require

[fringe sphinx]

You go to war (internships) with the army (skills) you’ve got, not the army you want. So, it’s probably too late to significantly change your readiness for an internship interview for this coming summer. But, practice away.

[true harness]

the enemy (companies) can still beat (deny) you. there's still a few months left before summer, which is still enough time to train (train)

[hearty island]

why are we talking about war

[peak halo]

a metaphor that billybobby used.

[hearty island]

ah makes sense

[smoky quest]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[smoky quest]

Good luck but we don't do ads

[errant merlin]

Sorry for that and thank you

It's deleted

[smoky quest]

thank you!

[vapid jay]

Should I learn web development in 2024?

[pine sleet]

do you want to?

Or perhaps, is it something you want a career in?

[vapid jay]

yes, as a career. but I'm worried if I should cause A.I in the future.

[pine sleet]

A.I is not going to replace your job, but it will most likely make you do your job differently. Be knowledgeable in your field, and know the limitations of A.I, and use it like any other tool and you will be just fine

[thorn sentinel]

Hi everyone, I’m a new aspiring developer. Please I really need good resources to put me through thoroughly 🥹

[smoky quest]

Hi!
In terms of career, a CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation.

For learning python, "automating the boring stuff" is an awesome book to get started

[thorn sentinel]

Just checked now such books isn’t available for my region

[smoky quest]

It's a free book available online

[thorn sentinel]

Thank you 😊

[pure summit]

so im tryna learn python for a high paying job in the future. which career do you guys reccomend

[turbid bobcat]

I recall someone saying that regardless of stack or specialization, the avg salaries in function of YOE tend to converge to the same value in mid-late to late stage career. Not sure if legit tho, worth the Google search ig

[wind python]

Could someone test something for me? in dms. but you don't need to run any code!

[silk osprey]

me too you could work for google!

[turbid bobcat]

These days I wonder if google is a good place to be in. The constant layoffs + the losing AI race.

I honestly don't know what to make of laying off people who've been there for 15-20 years.

[fringe sphinx]

I worked for a company which made the transition from continuous growth to ‘layoff every year’. Eventually (a decade later) it died.

[mint oracle]

ur experience in it industry?

[fringe sphinx]

Google during hyper growth was probably filled with a lot of dead weight/bloat. Some cutting of projects and people was probably a healthy thing and would improve the workforce.

Big companies come down to small teams, and -I- work for projects, not companies: so working for a company that’s in ‘layoff every year’ mode doesn’t really bother me. But it’s bad for the people who just want to camp at a big company.

[fringe sphinx]

I always left before things fell apart.

[mint oracle]

I am asking ur experience

Looks like you have a lot of experience

[fringe sphinx]

Anything specific you want to know?

[mint oracle]

Nothing have a good day!

I am free no job/internship experience yet

[hearty island]

what kinda technical questions would you expect for an entry level biz analyst role for ericsson?

[fringe sphinx]

No idea, tbh. My advice for entry level is: prepare a story or two. Something that talks about some adversity or challenge you dealt with. Use it as your home base when someone asks you a tough question.

[hearty island]

gotcha. i will defo keep that in mind. idk how much they're really expecting me to know, but i do have quite a few internship stories.

[hearty island]

my latest interview essentially said nah bc of my graduation date 😦. i really can't wait to graduate

[wanton birch]

Hello everyone

Didn’t talk to you all in forever! You guys know if there is some nice AI tool for rewriting resumes?

[hearty island]

wouldn't rely on ai to rewrite a resume. it's a good skill to learn on your own

[true harness]

chat gpt works fine for individual bullets

[peak halo]

how is an AI tool going to help you write a resume? because everything on your resume needs to be a true statement about you, and no one knows more about what you have done than you do.

[wanton birch]

Oh I meant that I would give it the existing one and give it updated information. Then, it would combine them and show them different ways to present that data (themes)

Obviously the AI cant “write” stuff as it doesn’t know who I am and what I did and need emphasising

[wanton birch]

How are you doing? Did your interviews result in some progress?

[hearty island]

got to the final round for ericsson 🙂, final interview monday.

[wanton birch]

Wow! Congratulations!

[hearty island]

thanks! it was just a lowkey HR one for the first round. the usual behavioral screening questions.

[wanton birch]

If you managed to reach the final round, that means they appreciate your potential. That’s a good thing. Wish you all the best. I hope you end up getting selected.

[hearty island]

ty!

[slate dagger]

hi

fellas where should i look for jobs after i've mastered a programming language

[cobalt moat]

unlikely to get a job without having a degree or being in progress of a degree. Also unlikely that you "mastered a language". Also 1 language is usually not enough to be productive at a large scale. You could look for internships or entry IT jobs on indeed

[peak halo]

what does it mean to "master" a specific programming language?
in either case, employers are interested in your demonstrated skills for the kind of programming they want you to do. not in a specific language per se.

[slate dagger]

im in my first year of degree course and trying to look for online intern or anything like that

[cobalt moat]

then you definitely havent mastered it

[cobalt moat]

your school probably hosts internship fairs and once in a blue moon a freshmen/sophmore gets one

[slate dagger]

i haven't but where do people apply for intern and jobs after they are ready?

[cobalt moat]

internship fairs, online, local business, nepotism, career fairs, personal projects

[hearty island]

when i used to apply for internships, i used linkedin

[slate dagger]

i see thanks blud

[thorn sentinel]

Any software developer here ?😖

[peak halo]

Yes? Why? Always ask your actual question, not for the person you want to answer it.

[thorn sentinel]

Can I manipulate Angular for iOS ?

[gritty rivet]

The answer may depend on where you are. Have you asked your classmates? Doors your school have a career center (if you haven't looked, they probably do)?

[gritty rivet]

That's not a career question, so wrong channel

Doesn't even seem like a Python question, so maybe wrong server

[nova oracle]

Just need some sanity check/advice here. Might be somewhat out of scope, but in that case I'll remove my comment -
My work is not a Python-shop but we're slowly moving towards it for automation purposes.
I'm in a small team where I'm the most proficient at Python. How would I best deal with keeping a slow-learning coworker at arm's length? I've previously taught him a lot of .NET snippets and some PowerShell, but it was very exhausting.

FWIW we have a good inter-personal relationship

[lost fern]

does the manager know, do you think you could discuss this with the manager? Maybe they have training budget for a python course for the coworker. And maybe they care about your productivity and would somehow ensure that you don't spend all your time helping the coworker?

[buoyant seal]

If u are busy, u can say u a busy with current task and will answer later.

U can keep at arm length further with answering only when it is convinient for you and then going back to your business

Tldr: avoiding people is a strategy

[buoyant seal]

Also I am sure u can formulate answer in a way where u just redirect to documentation / books /articles and etc to learn stuff on your own how to solve certain problem
Prefer such answers instead of doing work for them

Just concentrate on answering at least precisely chapter name / key words to use, where they will find their answer

[nova oracle]

I've already raised the concern, yes. He didn't really comment it much other than "he can learn gradually over time".

[lost fern]

the other question is are you in the office mostly, or mostly working from home? Because it's a bit easier to delay your answers etc., if you are working from home. In the office you can be deskbombed and that's harder to control, but there are some good suggestions above such as directing the coworker to documentation instead of giving the answer etc.

[buoyant seal]

At the same time during code reviews u are encouraged being professional and neutral in wording and preferably participating in them and giving your time. U should not avoid code reviewing pull requests/merge requests unless u have broken relationship completely

[nova oracle]

Yes, you hit the nail on its head. I think this is definitely the way to go.
I've done this before but this coworker seems to have some degree of "learned helplessness" or "help vampirism" (https://slash7.com/2006/12/22/vampires/).

[nova oracle]

Lately it's been with a slight tilt towards working from home, but for the most part it's about 50/50.

@lost fern @buoyant seal I like both of your suggestions to delay answering. I'm a bit guilty of jumping straight to an answer.

[nova oracle]

Definitely not broken at all. I think I'm really just looking for techniques to be better at setting boundaries.

[buoyant seal]

Learn how to say no ^_^
https://www.amazon.com/Clean-Coder-Conduct-Professional-Programmers/dp/0137081073
Robert Martin wrote it from programming point of view for programmers in one those chapters.
Highly recommending this book in general, it helped me to optimize my... Performance output. Putting energy in a good way

[lost fern]

Good luck. You want to strike a balance between keeping a good relationship and ringfencing your time.

[nova oracle]

Curious, I have that book in my digital collection, but I never got around to reading it.

[buoyant seal]

This book changed my life / lifestyle for years ^_^ impactful reading it was at least for me

[turbid bobcat]

But do you think google is headed that way ?

I've heard some stories, a friend of a friend working at Google in NYC, and from what he says his life is basically doing nothing 70% of the time and that the company culture discourages differentiation, so his incentive is to not try hard in the first place.

I don't know if this is true, or, maybe there's exaggeration in the mix. But if it is, I can understand the push towards a more strict culture

[fringe sphinx]

That reminds me of my life in big tech. I happened to be on a growth project/product, but many people were in sustaining and mature products: a lot of them were largely busy work.

[fringe sphinx]

I don’t know about Google, but my opinion is: it’s all about the team and project that you work on. You can thrive at any company, if you’re on the right team. Google is weird because, as I understand, you don’t get hired to a team specifically: they hired to the company and after you start they decide where to place you. In other words: you might never work with the people you interviewed with (this is true for seniors too). Third hand story, grain of salt/etc.

[turbid bobcat]

I've definitely heard of this, honestly, I even thought that's how all big tech operated, team placement after offer. But yeah doesn't really make much sense now that I think about it.

[nova oracle]

So very true about the specific team and project

[fringe sphinx]

I heard it from insiders who hated it: they’d ‘land’ a great recruit and they’d get taken by another team

[turbid bobcat]

Yeah I mean, it makes the interview very one sided isn't it. Usually you'd get to judge if you like the people who you're gonna work with and vice versa ofc

[smoky quest]

It's not completely one sided. You would have your say.

But yeah, Google and bigtech can be viewed as a retirement home for senior engineers

[fringe sphinx]

lol, at my advanced age, that sounds quite enticing.

[smoky quest]

It's not too bad from the folks I know, especially if you don't care about impact or career.
You are fed, there are tons of activities to keep you busy, many big toys to play with and there isn't much in the way of telling you what to do

[fringe sphinx]

The one thing I hated about big tech was not talking to customers enough. Too many people between me and end users, I felt like I was less ‘in touch’ when I left than when I started.

I can see how some people might like that.

[smoky quest]

It's a fine balance tbh. Having no barrier can be a source of stress and confusion, especially once you reach a threshold of customers

but crucial in the initial stages of any product

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, it’s also a personality thing too, I like to be involved across the lifecycle and have throughout my career (even before i ‘earned’ it).

Or maybe I just worked with terrible product managers… that was a big source of my aggravation

[smoky quest]

Definitely!

And yeah, any company that grows will be tempted to just put a thick wall and loose out

[celest kite]

Or have a really neat project that you did

[obtuse wagon]

which degree will be worth more out of AI and DS degree and CS degree

[weak kindle]

Skills

[obtuse wagon]

no i meant in the job market?

[long monolith]

does anyone know how to create a dope resume, i mean some good template

[buoyant seal]

https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/jakes-resume/syzfjbzwjncs
pretty dope. Resume as latex code.

[zenith moon]

hello,everyone

[native narwhal]

Anyone with experience as a Data Engineer could tell me their prefered Operating System, is it doable with Windows or is Linux a must?

[long monolith]

thanks so much

[wooden basalt]

mm

[turbid bobcat]

I'm getting to the final form of ed + projects, ended up not mentioning the thing about the internship supervisor co-founding a company with a nobel prize winner

[mint oracle]

MSc Medical physics sound interesting

This course is about?

[turbid bobcat]

the bulk of the field is methods for detecting and treating cancer, so stuff like MRI's, X-Rays, radiotherapy, etc. There's also other more, I wouldn't say niche, but maybe more specialized stuff like using nano particles for destroying cancer or delivering chemotherapy. I focused on simulation of radiation, radiation is just highly energetic particles bumping into matter

[mint oracle]

Great! You save lifes!

[sly panther]

so uh, i've been doing python for a year and a half now. how likely am i to get a remote job if i'm willing to do 5$ USD an hour lol

[turbid bobcat]

I ended up leaving the field, tho I might have an edge when applying to related companies

[mint oracle]

so u do practicle relating to operating mri's etc.. machine or dealing with internal mechanism of machine so u can upgrade/modify it ?

[turbid bobcat]

sorry I did not understand

[mint oracle]

I means what did u learn in this course? Any practicle relating to how to use machines? or only theory of how machine works

[mint oracle]

why did u left this field?

[turbid bobcat]

oh, we learned the theoretical basis of the MRI mechanism

it works by making the hydrogen atoms in your water molecules rotate at differing speeds depending on which chunk of the body is selected

[turbid bobcat]

at first I left because covid made a mess on my life, I had to get a job asap at one point, don't plan to come back because I liked soft and ml eng too much, I belong in engineering not in research, will come back to make the final presentation tho, and there's good research work to be finished there, but don't have plans to do PhD in medical physics or physics

[mint oracle]

Have you ever thought about robotics (medical+robotics)?

[turbid bobcat]

yeah sounds super interesting, I'll eventually do a side project with some electronics/robotics, but rn I already have a lot of stuff to do/finish

[weary trench]

How much can i earn as an ethical hacker/penetration tester

İf there is someone with experience in field would appreciate answers

And is it a good job? İ mean is it doable with python

[buoyant seal]

i am not penetration tester, but i am DevOps engineer
I can say that there is specialization called DevSecOps, when person responsible for infrastructure is concentrated on fixing security vulnerabilities.
He implements automated means to scan stuff for vulnerabilities
He fixes infrastructure/backend code to implement security
He configures automated alerts in case of suspicious activity and reacts to them
He wields monitoring/observability tools to make observations and configure additional stuff like alerts
He proactively can make actions to reset passwords for users which leaked their credentials.

U can consider this job role as potential upgrade over regular Ethical hacker perhaps. DevOps engineers are surely paid well, and u could google salaries for DevSecOps job roles.

Certainly doable with python, as its scripting is enough to help yourself, but highly likely u will be more constrained to only projects which implemented their backend in python. U could be willing to learn eventually additional languages to broaden your specter of available job roles (Something like additionally learning Typescript / Java will cover a big majority of market)

U will need more than just python for that though. Expertise in infrastructure as a code tools / cloud providers usage like AWS/GCP/Azure is expected.
Could be fun job role to aim for growth (definitely not beginner friendly job role)

[native narwhal]

frend you are like GPT-5 such good explanation

[vapid jay]

i am such a clown i have a good career potential in circus

[lavish violet]

I have seen Windows, Linux, and MacOS used for DE but the operating system you use doesn't affect your ability to be a DE. It's more about the knowledge of fundamentals and tools.

[weary trench]

Thank you for answer do i need math for it? And after learning DevSecOps what else will i be able to do apart from job

[gritty rivet]

Look at job listings in your local area and start applying

You may want feedback on your resume/portfolio

At $5/hour you may have a chance of finding freelance work on Upwork or Fiverr but competition is extreme

[hearty island]

how do you guys find roommates when you’re relocating for a job? is there something like an app you can use?

is that a bad question

[turbid bobcat]

Try to speak with locals. Finding a community on discord or on reddit.

[buoyant seal]

Thank you for answer do i need math for it?
haven't noticed need for math during DevOps jobs, but.. in order to become one usually common paths are growing from system administartor role with a lot of Ops experience or from Backend developer(or other cloud related software developer role) into DevOps role.
It is common requirement for at least Backend developers to go through CS degree, and CS degree has a lot of math to learn.
Some small math noticed in figuring out how to query monitoring systems though

And after learning DevSecOps what else will i be able to do apart from job
highly likely u will be very invested in DevOps common skills, which means

• u will be able to wield infrastructure as a code tools to span cloud (AWS/GCP/Azure) infra by Terraform / Pulumi and other stuff, u will be needing it to configure security monitoring related stuff.
  • There are options go with baremetal setups, they will involve different toolings
    • (May be added Ansible / Salt / Puppet as configuration management)
    • (may be added virtualization related tech (Vagrant or other stuff)
  • in both cloud and baremetal setups highly likely u will learn eventually kubernetes and its security 😅
• As well as helping developers with configuring CI CD pipelines (Github Actions, Gitlab CI, Argo CD and etc), u will be needing to know that for configuring automated scans preferably.
• In its turn u will be highly likely professional with Docker and containerizing applications ^_^, as lot of modern security vulnerabilities are related to it
• If u are coming from backend role environment, highly likely it will be not an issue for you to develop infra related tooling, backend and small frontend/full stack/CLI applications depending on need.
  • from any background, scripting wielding will be a common thing for u. It is needed to configure infrastructure anyway.

[hearty island]

gotcha, thanks

[turbid bobcat]

The other day I was told that the former Soviet parts of Germany have a lot cheaper rent. Would've never known if I hadn't spoken with a German

[hearty island]

yeah, i’ll look into it. i think the place i’ll work for will give me some ideas too. at least they should.

[buoyant seal]

@weary trench the interesting part regarding going this way is that you are not only discovering vulnerabilities, but you are also the one fixing them 😅 as u are the one capable to reconfigure code for infrastructure. Also just higher efficiency, since a lot of vulnerability discovering will be automated.

[near ocean]

I used a site called spareroom
Might not be available in US tho

[hearty island]

it’s available in the US too, thanks mar! clutch asf

[sacred oxide]

Ok I know this question is old as time..but I wanted to start learning programming.
Tbh havent yet decided yet what do i want to do like build apps or web development but i just wanted to start

I am doing my bachelors in electronics but I've always wanted to pursue career in programming field. I'm thinking java/C so is it good for a start?

[turbid bobcat]

I'd recommend C and then build up to C++, given your degree in electronics

honestly I even thought you guys learned low level langs like assembly in electronics

[sacred oxide]

I'm just starting so that might come in future idk...it's just that I always wanted to take Computer science but had to choose electronics kind of unwillingly lol...

[sacred oxide]

okayy

[turbid bobcat]

Oh, I wouldn't worry too much tho, I've seen quite a lot of people with electronics background working in various software subfields. Think it's even more common than people entering from the sciences.

And I know one case of someone who majored in philosophy and is now ML tech Lead

I myself started in arts

[dreamy dew]

That is something new. I haven't seen before

[turbid bobcat]

Which part ?

[dreamy dew]

majored in philosophy and is now ML tech Lead

[turbid bobcat]

Yeah I think both cases are pretty rare. But I feel they are rare because people don't even consider it, they might think it's not possible for ex

[sacred oxide]

That's good to hear..hopefully I'd be one too

[buoyant seal]

U can build with Java apps and web stuff.
C can be used only for embedded development / operational systems stuff / compiler stuff. (Not used for graphical or web apps)
Consider going Java way then if apps and web are your interests

[buoyant seal]

Ergh, if u a doing electronics, u will use C anyway though

[turbid bobcat]

My rationale is that C, then C++ gives you a better conceptual understanding of what's going on under the hood. And knowing several languages is recommended, so a later migration to Java is a healthy thing in my view.

[fringe sphinx]

There was a discussion of this yesterday... one sec

[buoyant seal]

I think it is not necessary overhead to learn low level languages.
It should be fine going from any language pretty much (although could be nice learning first using static typed language may be even with support of pointers)

Anyway, main point. U will benefit more with using few extra years language u really need. (And learning more of its best practices and ecosystem)

Than learning low level language u will abandon anyway (and thus u learned it for nothing)

[fringe sphinx]

See nedbat: #python-discussion message re "learning C first"

[sacred oxide]

What does "graphical apps" mean...I believe game engines are based on C/C++ so is that different? sorry I'm an absolute beginner lol

[turbid bobcat]

I don't have a strong position either way, but the way it was phrased sounded extremely provocative to me.

[fringe sphinx]

First, I think nowadays: starting with Python until you "get good" is wise. Python is the dominant introductory language nowadays. I disagree with C as being essential to learning programming, and you'll find Python is a larger growth language right now than Java (speaking as a multiple decade Java dev).

[turbid bobcat]

I think someone in electronics starting with C is wise.

[fringe sphinx]

Perhaps but: it's probably necessarily provocative: it's a counter argument to the prevailing wisdom that puts C/C++ on a pedestal. My personally, I think C/C++ is helpful for learning memory management, so a SWE has an appreciation of how hard this stuff is, but that's probably about it.

[buoyant seal]

I meant u can build with Java Desktop application with GUI interface (windows forms and buttons), u can build Android mobile applications too with Java.
I assume under apps u meant such apps.

Plus with Java u can build web apps too. Very multipurpose language.
Friendly for development from Linux (or other OSes like Windows)

[fringe sphinx]

I think if they're in electronics, and haven't learned any programming yet, they probably need to take some baby steps first... but this is definitely a "reasonable people disagree" scenario.

[turbid bobcat]

He lists a bunch of concepts that he says can't be learned from C, when in fact I learned about many of them because I was working with C. And I can tell this is a rabbit hole >.>

[turbid bobcat]

Yes I agree with that

[fringe sphinx]

As my final "pitch" for: Start with Python until you get good, two articles: https://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/176450-python-is-now-the-most-popular-introductory-teaching-language-at-top-us-universities/fulltext and https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-top-programming-languages-2023

(this is just my opinion, and lots of people disagree and have reasonable reasons to disagree)

[turbid bobcat]

I usually also recommend starting with Py first. Only said it otherwise now due to the background

[buoyant seal]

I will say u over value memory management value too much. And need to learn low level language exclusively to get it.
It is only small topic on the path of Software development

I would prefer person concentrated on learning code architecture as more important and bigger topic for comfortable dev life

[sacred oxide]

ok isnt it the notion that python is "easier" than C/Java. Idk if I'm wrong in this but I felt like learning something that is harder at first so probably id be more comfortable with next languages to come idk

[turbid bobcat]

As someone with a bad laptop that halts with most modern JS websites, I disagree with disregarding performance

Laptop is still more powerful than my first desktop computer

[buoyant seal]

Sounds like time to replace laptop. Even my oldest ancient PC, bought 18 years ago, opened everything fine (as long as we don't try to open doom 3 ported to browser)

[sacred oxide]

Also most importantly i should mention. Apart from my obvious interest in programming, my main goal right now is to get a job(even a very entry level position) in 3 years(max) anyhow so that could be a factor too

[fringe sphinx]

The argument is: It's easier to learn, with high quality resources / community, without sacrificing capability. In other words: it's easier to take the first few steps with Python and you're less likely to quit out of frustration. And, when you later learn C/whatever, it'll be easier. This is how most Universities approach it now: A 4 year CS major will often start with Python freshman year, but later learn C++/a Functional Programming Lang/some assembly/SQL/etc.

[turbid bobcat]

Like, all modern software today at the exception of some Linux running i3 feels needlessly slow.

I've never had a windows run smoothly for very long.

[buoyant seal]

Upgrade first to SSD, it does wonders to eliminate main bottleneck performance of ancient PCs

[turbid bobcat]

I said old, but it's not that old

[fringe sphinx]

The counter-argument is: C/C++ teach you some fundamentals that are good to understand, like memory management and other fundamentals. You'll still end up in Python or another higher level lang, but you'll have a wider perspective. I somewhat agree that it's good to learn both, but I assume that if you don't have any programming experience, your education journey will be rougher if you start with C/C++ vs Python. I 100% don't think Java is the right first choice, nowadays.

[buoyant seal]

Java is challenging enough in its ecosystem and code... Approaches. It will take you many years to get code architecture to operate it at excellent level (may be all career)
Tbh python despite being easy to learn is very hard to master too.

[fringe sphinx]

(the c/c++ view is not my point of view, but I understand and think that over a 3-4 year time frame, it doesn't really matter)

[sacred oxide]

I see

I have been in the "analysis paralysis" for more than a week lol. Its somewhat a vague topic with different people having different exp & opinion and hence the confusion

[vapid jay]

Hello there

[turbid bobcat]

I think if you start from 0, Python is always the way to go, but I don't feel that C is that complicated for beginners, I think Java is way more complex.

[sacred oxide]

Also again, I'm willing to go through a tougher road/language to learn if it means an easier road to job...if that makes sense.

[fringe sphinx]

There are a lot of hot takes out there. That's why I'll appeal to authority with: Python Is Now the Most Popular Introductory Teaching Language at Top ­U.S. ­Universities

[vapid jay]

Can I ask about something off topic

[digital fjord]

Use our off topic channels, such as #ot1-perplexing-regexing

[vapid jay]

Ok thank you

[wind crystal]

Anyone wanna team up and code on a problem

[turbid bobcat]

I strongly disagree with this take tho. I don't think learning a language can ever be a waste, it's an extremely transferable skill, and the more paradigms you cover the better developer you are.

C is a lot simpler than Java, I can imagine someone abandoning Java very quickly if that person is not closely mentored

It's not about overvaluing memory management and performance, it's about knowing it is there in the first place. Even in py, you'll eventually encounter the garbage collector and need to understand reference counting. You can't run away from it.

[sacred oxide]

Thank you for all the help guys..really appreciate it a lot.
I'll do a little more research and choose between the 3. Thanks again :)

[willow lantern]

can someone help me with my python homework

[near ocean]

Not the channel for that, try #python-discussion

[willow lantern]

oh

i cant add image

[near ocean]

Open a help thread then #❓｜how-to-get-help

[winter river]

Any one have discord.py server

[frozen nexus]

https://discord.com/invite/dpy

[onyx basin]

Does anyone know a video on YouTube that explains every programming field/career, it's languages, what it requires to learn and other details??

[fringe sphinx]

Seems like an impossible question: nearly everything has software nowadays, and the amount of information you'd need to know to understand the answer is significant.

Answering this feels like Feynman when answered about "the feeling between magnets": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO0r930Sn_8

[onyx basin]

How would someone choose his career then?

[fringe sphinx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO0r930Sn_8&t=47s in particular

[fringe sphinx]

I don't think you "choose" a career. You choose a trajectory, but the career path largely depends on circumstances.

ie: You might choose 'software engineering'. Your path through SWE depends on your interests, your opportunities, what the market happens to need, etc.

You might even choose "embedded" vs "front end" vs "financial" software engineering. But, within that, there's countless languages and specifics involved.

[blazing harbor]

BillyBobby how do you get really really smart

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno, I guess I'm just saying: it's in practical terms, impossible to answer "every programming field/career, it's languages, what it requires to learn and other details??"., Perhaps a more narrow or specific question?

[fringe sphinx]

I'll let you know when I get there.

[blazing harbor]

ayy stop being so humble

[fringe sphinx]

eh, I don't mean it to be humble. I fully believe that everybody knows something that you don't (bill nye)

[onyx basin]

thanks for explaining all this to me🙏
well, my problem is that I don't really know other fields than data science, web dev, mobile dev😅, (I'm still a high-school student) and I finished a python course where I studied python in depth, and I've settled now on DS, so just wanted to have a visualization about the roadmap in front of me

[fringe sphinx]

This question comes up a lot, and I'm not just trying to give you Dad answers...

[onyx basin]

I don't want to continue in DS bc I will have a limit with some advanced math, and also studying DS for now is a bit narrow in my case, so wanted to have other tools in my hands too

[fringe sphinx]

People want roadmaps that proscribe a learning path, but the problem is there is no such map (there are some things that call themselves maps, but they're not good, imo)

[fringe sphinx]

My advice is: Focus on achieving mastery in something you care about. Getting to a high level in a single thing is more valuable than achieving a low level in lots of things.

I like this diagram: #career-advice message in the sense that: getting to the top level in something you enjoy will make it easier to get to the top level in the next thing.

[onyx basin]

ok, let's say I would want to focus to master more stuff using python

[blazing harbor]

Mastery does also make mastery in other topics easier?

[fringe sphinx]

I believe so, yes.

[onyx basin]

could you help me know what I would want to study next?
I've studied tha following:

Tkinter
SQLAlchemy
Flask
Basic HTML & CSS
Web Development and Frameworks like bootstrap
Using API's and creating them
Web Scraping
Pandas
some builtin modules
and ALOT of projects```
and for DS

advanced pandas
plotly
matplotlib
seaborn
scikit
numpy```

[onyx basin]

I do say yes too

[onyx basin]

I don't know what other stuff could I study, not because there is nothing else ofcourse... the problem is with me, I just don't have enough knowledge

[fringe sphinx]

What I'm saying is: This is the wrong way to think about "getting good". Getting good at programming isn't about accumulating knowledge. It's about accumulating experience.

[buoyant seal]

Study unit testing (core software engineering subject for average quality in interpreted languages)

• Theory by Khorikov
• Practice by Kent Beck
• libs to try work with
  • unittest/pytest
  • pytest-django for Django
  • factory-boy for easiest SQL ORM testing

[fringe sphinx]

In data science, you could look at https://www.kaggle.com/competitions, for instance.

[onyx basin]

thanks

[onyx basin]

ooo, thanks for sharing that

[fringe sphinx]

also, as usual, I agree with Darkwind... learn engineering topics, not just "coding skills".

[turbid bobcat]

best way to do that is learning various languages 😝

puts you in contact with new concepts, new ideas and new communities

[buoyant seal]

for students i would agree. that is a good approach for students finding out what they like and where they wish to lead their career. Try everything 🙂
for workers, i would prefer in depth learning single language first and core software engineering subjects and at necessary level preferably the most regular tech in general
only then going to other languages

[turbid bobcat]

I can't imagine myself being in the same stack for my entire career tho.

[buoyant seal]

god save. hopefully i will not spend my full career in a single stack too 😅 Although i already managed two squeeze two different languages to my current work. So pretty happy in wielding two different stacks.

[turbid bobcat]

Idk, I just think the more abstract stuff you kinda pick up along the way when you challenge yourself

[turbid bobcat]

Which languages are you using ? I've been doing almost exclusively python lately and I'm getting the itch to change up the pace.

But it gets to be too much tbh, been learning the ropes in ML for a while, especially the more SOTA stuff

[buoyant seal]

python and golang 🙂
also as infra dev i sometimes relax in just doing terraform stuff / other infra fluff

[turbid bobcat]

Oooh I've been meaning to try this rockstar tech stack : go+ htmx + tmpl

[peak halo]

even if one stays in the same domain (like web dev) for their entire career, I can't imagine that a popular web development stack will remain popular for all of a >=30 year period.

[buoyant seal]

tmpl as in std lib tmpl u mean?

[turbid bobcat]

No wait, I'll get it, it's still pretty niche I think, it's like react components but on the backend and integrated with htmx

[buoyant seal]

i am currently building portoflio/blog web site using templ go to build static site. It is awesome
I am able to achieve 99% typization for all my frontend code 😅
100% customization for all stuff my blog needs + minimum amount of dependencies
https://github.com/a-h/templ/raw/main/ide-demo.gif

[turbid bobcat]

Yes exactly that, I think they do transcompilation too, before compiling go

[buoyant seal]

u could be also wishing try building some stuff with cobra-cli. Pretty dope cli building lib. i think it was used to build stuff like modern docker/kubectl today
and go-app.dev: React like reactive web site in wasm but in go. (u will not need htmx with it)
templ go is awesome in being simple rendering as it is, lightweight and simple type friendly templating (way better than Jinja stuff) (u could utilize it with htmx if u wish)
as for web apis, u don't need anything but std libs pretty much for them (well, u can be needing something for databases to install, bun lib is good for postgres, gorm is fine for sqlite3)

[turbid bobcat]

Django is quite old tho. But yeah 30 years is a long time in tech, I imagine fastapi will surprass it's popularity for ex

[turbid bobcat]

Awesome, I'm gonna check them out.

[peak halo]

seems to me like fastapi is displacing flask, and that django is still king for web UIs

maybe not web UIs in general (there's also streamlit), but "websites"

[turbid bobcat]

I think there's a move away from ORMs, so it's possible people will give up on Django eventually, but it's speculation on my part

[peak halo]

from what little I know about web development, it does sound like django would have to reinvent itself to survive a decline in ORMs

[buoyant seal]

🤔 it does not seem like this way. Django covers niche other ORMs do not fill.
Highly abstractional ORM simplifying all stuff and working out of the box, including its migrations (Have u tried how much pain it is to configure Sqlalchemy with its poor documentation? 😅 Especially if u a novice in python importing)
Some people need more, but i expect in 80%+ usage cases Django orm will work pretty fine

[turbid bobcat]

I think Django ORM is 100% the best I've used. SQL Alchemy being the worst for sure. But after many attempts I decided that I prefer to hard code SQL and escape it with some lib ofc

[buoyant seal]

ergh. hard coding ORM, not really fine idea for typing safety (code will not scale well without it). I would prefer using at least something to constuct sql queries a bit nicer + i need something for migration versioning. Otherwise we would be eventually reinventing it ourselves to achieve quality.
The only exception where i went with hard code SQL => making tool that configured for datadog integration for postgres/maridb/mysql. All documentation was in hard coded sql anyway, there was no point to translate it to any query builder or orm

[turbid bobcat]

I think SQL builder is fine, a thin abstraction on top of SQL is beneficial. But I'll always have a bias towards hard coding it, especially if I'm not making heavy use of it.

But ORMs, I broke up with them.

[buoyant seal]

I think SQL builder is fine, a thin abstraction on top of SQL is beneficial. But I'll always have a bias towards hard coding it, especially if I'm not making heavy use of it.
i would not wished working in such hard coded sql code base if it is larger than several thousands code lines 😅 if lower than few thousands code lines then fine.
imagine surviving in your hard coded sql when u have hundreds thousands code lines

[turbid bobcat]

That's the thing, you'd prefer that to debugging ORM code.

I just think that it's not the natural state of things, it's similar to Cython, where you're controlling generation of C code that is used to generate machine code. You're debugging through 2 languages.

[buoyant seal]

i think i would prefer debugging ORM code 🤔
Or at least if it is not Django ORM code, than i would have prefered such code. Go bun lib is cool and nearly natural SQL despite being ORM lib

regionalSales := db.NewSelect().
    ColumnExpr("region").
    ColumnExpr("SUM(amount) AS total_sales").
    TableExpr("orders").
    GroupExpr("region")

topRegions := db.NewSelect().
    ColumnExpr("region").
    TableExpr("regional_sales").
    Where("total_sales > (SELECT SUM(total_sales) / 10 FROM regional_sales)")

Also Gorm for sqlite3 is pretty good and nice to deal with. (don't use Gorm for postgres)

[fringe sphinx]

Oh I didn’t know bun, I like that

[turbid bobcat]

I don't like having to control the ORM SQL generation. It's very messy imo and it does things I didn't necessarily tell it to do.

If it is something like an SQL builder, it's more acceptable in my view since it doesn't come with hidden surprises.

In any case, my most recent stuff doesn't do heavy use of SQL anyway. Been mostly using stuff like redis and open search

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16809620

CodinM

Ask HN: Raw SQL vs. ORM?

What's your opinion/experience on using raw SQL queries vs using an ORM for interfacing with an SQL DB?

Hacker News · Apr 11, 2018, 10:16 AM

Most people on the first level comments are going for raw SQL

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't use hackernews as a metric for making sane decisions

[turbid bobcat]

No I've already made my choice, just checking other takes

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't use hackernews as a metric for checking if decisions are sane

[turbid bobcat]

No, I'm looking for discussion on it. And also a sample of what people think

[smoky quest]

There is still a heavy bias towards younger engineers who need to experience more pain to learn

[turbid bobcat]

Uhm, what is your take on it ?

[nova snow]

does anyone know any servers to find job and internship opportunities?

[gritty rivet]

Not Discord servers, but check the channel description for two job boards

Honestly you're probably better off with Indeed, LinkedIn, Handshake etc. depending on whatever is popular locally

[turbid bobcat]

stack overflow seems to side with raw sql: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/494816/using-an-orm-or-plain-sql i mean its a close call between the first two

[fringe sphinx]

I’m conflicted on the whole ORM vs sql debate for basic object mapping… it’s super convenient for certain tables/use cases. But, anything complex is straight sql for me.

[digital fjord]

You can stick most complex SQL things into a view, then get the ORM to work with it, I do think it's worthwhile to have an ORM since if most queries will be simple via it.

[turbid bobcat]

[fringe sphinx]

This emoji reminds me of Tron https://rogerspubliclibrary.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/original1-1024x576.jpg

[brazen island]

I see the word "view" come up seldom when discussing raw SQL. It seems very strange to me. You can avoid most of the impedance mismatch problems by modelling things as your RDBMS would like it (normalized), mapping that to a view and then using an ORM on top of that. A consequence of ORMs is that people forgot which features DBs actually have, but I digress this is off-topic 😄

[brazen trail]

sounds like y'all are in agreement; I am learning SQL right now 😎

I think it will be good for my career

[smoky quest]

Knowing how to store, retrieve, process and manage data can be very useful for your career

[brazen trail]

yeah I'm hoping to apply it at work as I learn

[brazen island]

Data modelling is another distinct skill from SQL (talking specifically about the query language). It's worth picking up / looking for exclusively because knowing SQL does not automatically mean you know modelling. Just a heads up.

I'd even argue it's more important than SQL itself because harder queries are something I expect to come up more in data engineering than in full stack or backend. Other topics such as performance (query plans, indexes) are also relevant.

[brazen trail]

cool I'll look into that too

[turbid bobcat]

It's one of my favorites emotes

[smoky quest]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[proper plaza]

You know, I always wondered, how do employers know your project portfolio is fake and that you just copied your projects?

[smoky quest]

Most of them are competent

[proper plaza]

Ik but how do they fact check

[smoky quest]

The same way than when you try to bullshit your teacher

Things don't add up, don't match.
Plus they do get to see things across thousands of candidates

[smoky quest]

Note also the incentives aren't like in school where they might give you one more chance or be understanding.
From the employer's perspective, it's safer to reject a potentially good candidate than take a chance with someone who might turn out bad

[fringe sphinx]

!tempban 794716691946405959 7d Seems like you joined this server only to advertise. Please read the #rules if you want to participate.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @tired bane until <t:1706493203:f> (7 days).

[buoyant seal]

Portfolio is definitely checked by technical usually sufficiently high ranked specialist.
They worked on projects from beginner to middle and even senior levels
They get exposed to writing such stuff for many many years of their career.
They have experience and often remember how were things at each stage of their growth.
They put often effort to document projects, from first most awkward steps to more advanced and better ones.

With such expertise to how things are supposed to be at each stage of project growth (growing software development project is similar to a flower/tree 🌹 ), it is really easy to notice fake stuff 🥀
Really easy to notice usually stuff that was supposed to be present but missing

[nocturne dawn]

What are the positions I should be applying to as someone with intermediate python knowledge? I also have 8 years of on the job experience as an I.T technichian/system administrator. I am familiar with Python and related frameworks like Flask and Django for creating web applications

[peak halo]

You might look for back-end web development positions. Is there any chance that your current (or most recent) employer for the IT tech/sysadmin role would support you in moving to web development within the company?

[nocturne dawn]

Backend web dev seems right up my alley. And unfortunately not, I left my most recent job a little under 2 years ago now to take care of my mental health. Getting back into the game has been difficult, especially because I was trying to switch careers to software development before realizing what was happening to the industry right now

[peak halo]

!warn 834331116064079914 Recruiting for paid opportunities is not allowed on Python Discord. This is stated very clearly in the rules you agreed to when you joined.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @pulsar pelican.

[nocturne dawn]

Yeah I also feel it's sus asking people to send their resumes VIA DM on Discord

[small jolt]

hello

[vital wind]

Heya pals, pretty new here. Here's the case, hopefully you won't find it any off-topic:
I'm stuck in my own minds of which things to learn in Python on my way to get recruited since I'm now trying to get off of my sysadmin and alike jobs to try out how it feels to program, and how to get started of having people around with similar space of interests.
The thing is, I'm not pretty even sure which exact line of programming I want to be in (because of poor, shallow knowledge in that exact case), but I find it's interesting on parts of web-apps dev.
Main issue: since I'm solo-learner on python basics and I've never communicated to anyone on programming topics, and I've never had any opportunity to, like, collaborate with people or try to help them using some of my codding skills, I'm having pretty closed mindset for this spectrum right now.

Could you give me any advice on how to get started on learning a way of learning, to learn to clarify all the states I've mentioned above?

[small jolt]

what

[smoky quest]

Welcome aboard!
Some random advice:

• Hang out in this community to interact and talk programming
• Continue learning
• Have projects of your own
• Use your projects to see how it feels to program and how you like it

Once you feel more comfortable, you can start contributing to open source projects

[vital wind]

It's not. It's my regular style of speech.

[buoyant seal]

Oops. sorry.
Then as former sys admin to currently sys admin.
I can recommend DevOps engineering path to pursue.
This direction is friendly for previous sys admins

[buoyant seal]

U could describe what is your current programming experience, learned skills, job duties u did, educational background.
We could try to help with more precise recommendations what to try learning next perhaps (as well as what are your options in general)

[vital wind]

Pretty tired of having people reporting they got "nothing is working", then never actually read any documents I've manually write for them. As for DevOps, I've talked to a few people, probably around 30-40 employees from different responsibility areas and got a few years for think about the future, learning about all the stuff I can do in IT, brainstorm or manual-related jobs. I've parsed it on many languages in the internet, talked to a few hundred of people, got thru 100+ interviews on related jobs, tried out for a few weeks and months.
So uhh... Nope. Probably not. Nothing of sysadmin-related, IT (any-key-related) engineering, support team. I've tried all of the options and I've never found myself in it, no matter if it's about hardware or software, PC & server stocks/parks, virtualization, monitoring, cloud resolutions.
It's probably because of the country, because it's not English-speaking country and there's, as I feel, professional labor being highly underrated, payed poorly, nobody's even looking on your real experience, diplomas, qualification courses, etc., they're just looking for cheap workers who gonna do stuff for like 5 people, being payed for 0.3-0.5 of mid employee salary and have decades of experience for the exact position, still you don't need to be so young as I am, but also not too old. I highly disagree with that.
The background is pretty silly: 1.5 years of any-key engineer, 1.5 years of sysadmin, all of 3 years of which is combined with servicedesk support, 1.5 of which with monitoring and cloud solutions.
Education - college of technologies and communications: network and system administration, 4 years of education on worldskills-oriented format (pretty fun competitions for the youth people, left the competition because of issues in life).

So I've planned to learn programming on python, and now learned basic syntax, omw of making some silly projects related on simplifying further codding (I'm not sure if I can share link on github here).

[buoyant seal]

It's probably because of the country, because it's not English-speaking country and there's, as I feel, professional labor being highly underrated, payed poorly, nobody's even looking on your real experience, diplomas, qualification courses, etc., they're just looking for cheap workers who gonna do stuff for like 5 people, being payed for 0.3-0.5 of mid employee salary and have decades of experience for the exact position, still you don't need to be so young as I am, but also not too old. I highly disagree with that.
sounds like my origin country 😅
even in my origin country, DevOps engineers are highly valued though
sysadmins on other hands are extremely poorly paid though (less than 200$ per month can be, it is very varying)

[vivid nexus]

Hi, I have joined the channel recently
I am working as non tech product manager as of now, but I want to upgrade my skills and thus I have exploring a lot of options but am still confused and want some suggestions.
Any help would be appreciated, I want to grow and follow the latest trends to move up the career ladder.

[buoyant seal]

So I've planned to learn programming on python
Python is just a tool. With your amount of job experience, and currently already having working experience + education
i think we need to try aim for some precise job roles u wish to pursue
Which can be

• web frontend
• backend (python friendly direction)
• data engineering (python friendly direction)
• devops engineering as i mentioned (python friendly direction)
• desktop development
• android development
• ios development and etc

[buoyant seal]

@vital wind

It's probably because of the country, because it's not English-speaking country and there's, as I feel, professional labor being highly underrated, payed poorly, nobody's even looking on your real experience, diplomas, qualification courses, etc., they're just looking for cheap workers who gonna do stuff for like 5 people, being payed for 0.3-0.5 of mid employee salary and have decades of experience for the exact position, still you don't need to be so young as I am, but also not too old. I highly disagree with that.
continuing on topic of not English speaking country and poor salaries.
Usually a common solution for English well speaking person (like which u a looking)
is to get hired to oursourcing/outstaffing companies and working with projects beyond your country.
That is helpful to break the problem of poor payments
So, that's could be a goal to aim for perhaps

[buoyant seal]

(I'm not sure if I can share link on github here).
should be fine

So I've planned to learn programming on python, and now learned basic syntax, omw of making some silly projects related on simplifying further codding
sounds like i can recommend Head First Python 3d edition then
With doing all exercises it can be very helpful to get comfortable with coding

Besides that i just recommend doing more practice/pet projects, here is a helpful list of ideas to try

• https://codingchallenges.fyi/challenges/intro
• https://nedbatchelder.com/text/kindling.html

Beyond that to recommend further, could be helpful to decide which job role u will be pursuing

[buoyant seal]

Could you give me any advice on how to get started on learning a way of learning, to learn to clarify all the states I've mentioned above?
as for this question exactly + considering your previously described job experience
I could recommend giving a reading to this interesting book
https://www.amazon.com/Clean-Coder-Conduct-Professional-Programmers/dp/0137081073
It both tells about getting attitude for learning / optimizing your effort + may help in current job as well as it tries to help in communicating sphere too

[vapid jay]

guys

[buoyant seal]

Pretty tired of having people reporting they got "nothing is working", then never actually read any documents I've manually write for them. As for DevOps, I've talked to a few people, probably around 30-40 employees from different responsibility areas and got a few years for think about the future, learning about all the stuff I can do in IT, brainstorm or manual-related jobs. I've parsed it on many languages in the internet, talked to a few hundred of people, got thru 100+ interviews on related jobs, tried out for a few weeks and months.
So uhh... Nope. Probably not. Nothing of sysadmin-related, IT (any-key-related) engineering, support team. I've tried all of the options and I've never found myself in it, no matter if it's about hardware or software, PC & server stocks/parks, virtualization, monitoring, cloud resolutions.
It's probably because of the country, because it's not English-speaking country

Regretful a bit. With your previous job experience and education, DevOps engineering looks like easiest to pursue. It has smallest... Gap to transition for career switch?
Other known to me job roles are way less related and it is kind of will be starting from zero. And doing career switch without advantages going to be tough.
Unless someone knows some other path

[worthy finch]

10am, me:
sir let’s have a GitHub, will help to revert code if anything goes wrong
Senior: no, we’ll need permission from corporate.
2pm:
Senior; change orientation, colors of the application you made
Me; does as said
Code: I aint working now 💀

Moral: always use version control 😭

[vapid jay]

Why the hell do you guys learn python

[worthy finch]

Guys been in r$d dept and coding for 12 years and hasn’t been using any kind of version control, not even local based.

[buoyant seal]

I know one person tired of Ops which pursued backend development after that. Mm
Considering your previous cloud experience, perhaps exploring data engineering or backend can be good option as well

• u get bonuses towards both paths from previously using cloud

[vapid jay]

Idk about data engineering, I am currently working as a Data Engineer and am at $63,500 AUD, can't even find other jobs atm. There's a lot of contents to grasp and you get a lot taken out of you as compared to what you get

[balmy turtle]

he ya. Would this be the right place to ask about career path switching from Python to AWS?

[fringe sphinx]

What do you mean "switching from Python to AWS"?

[balmy turtle]

it's kind of a change from developer to devops I suppose

looking to take the CCP and SAA cert test for a start and

would like to ask advise on what kind of career could eventually lead to the Technical Account Manager one day

if getting there in 7 years would be possible

[hard hare]

Hello

I am new at phython can you help me with how to make a Minecraft mod

[gritty rivet]

That seems like a vague title to me but my guess would be that it may require neither... In 7 years, nobody knows what the job market will look like anyway

[gritty rivet]

You're in the career channel, try #python-discussion

[hard hare]

Ok thanks

[fringe sphinx]

That's an interesting question because it's the opposite of what people usually ask, but I think it's a good strategy: a lot of devs end up in TAM or sales engineering roles.

[balmy turtle]

what is TAM?

[fringe sphinx]

Tech Acct Mgr, what you asked about

[balmy turtle]

ah I see.

I've always been interested in anything AWS you know. My current job is in the CG industry and I don't think there's much room to grow

[fringe sphinx]

I know a lot of people in those roles, but I'm not sure they intended to become one... they just found out they like working with customers, and didn't like coding as a full-time job.

[balmy turtle]

it's more of a customer-facing position right

[fringe sphinx]

I'd suggest doing a little research into various customer-facing roles... tehre's a lot of videos out there: some keywords - sales engineer, solutions engineer, solutions architect, technical account manager, developer relations / devrel.

[balmy turtle]

I see

thank you for the pointers. So most people you know transitioned from that to more coding in SWE?

[fringe sphinx]

No, I mean: I know many people who went SWE to customer-facing roles (non-coding). It seems to be an easy transition.

I figure people don't ask about it because it's relatively easy to do.

[balmy turtle]

really

[fringe sphinx]

But, there are people who ask about the reverse... which is much harder.

[balmy turtle]

hmm from the sound of it, I suppose I need to know how to set up various services. Like, the more the better rather than going deep into one

as I need to be able to advise the best to choose for the customer?

Thanks for your insight Billy

[fringe sphinx]

These roles generally involve fairly specific in-house training by the company you work for. And, certifications are often valued in these roles (unlike in SWE roles)

[gritty rivet]

The solution architects where I work have substantial hands on experience. (One has a CS degree, the other has an MBA.) That's the only role which is customer facing and deeply technical but not actually hands on coding anymore. They indeed need a lot of knowledge about a lot of things.

I assume that's normal but agree with what BillyBobby said... These kinds of roles will vary between companies, and certs might help demonstrate the foundational knowledge.

[hearty island]

huge interview today, ericsson!

[gritty rivet]

Is this what you meant to ask? https://www.reddit.com/r/AWSCertifications/comments/19cw5mo/learning_path_advise_towards_technical_account/

[balmy turtle]

that was me actually

[static yacht]

Hi folks, I am a data science guy with a couple of years experience in quantitative modelling for credit risk/loan default forecasting, and general marketing models in retail banking. I would like to work building quantitative trading strategies in the financial markets and currently I'm just learning about this on my own. I just have a bachelors as of now. How should I break into this field do I need to get another degree? It seems like there's awfully high threshold for entry level jobs even in my country (India)

(Any advice appreciated)

[gritty rivet]

Not my area but I would search around on LinkedIn and see who's in your local area doing the work you want to do. You'll see what degrees they have, can ask for their advice on how they got where they are, etc.

[vast cave]

Uni is coming up and idk what field in computer to study yet
(I want to do full time programming)

[fringe sphinx]

What are your options / country?

!ot Use the off topic channels if it's not related to the channel topic.

[inner wren]

Off-topic channel

#ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[vast cave]

Middle East

[fringe sphinx]

You asked "what field in computer to study yet". What options do you have?

[silk mauve]

set up two interviews this this week just this morning, lets goooooo

hopefully a sign of things looking up in the job market

[deft herald]

Nice. What country?

[silk mauve]

US, both remote devops jobs

[deft herald]

noice

[exotic cove]

I'm new to Python, been studying up on it for a week now, immersing myself with at least an hour a day. I'm currently working in cybersecurity. In a month or 2 id like to start looking for small projects or jobs i can put 20-30 hours a week in on the side from my 9-5. Recommendations?

[gritty rivet]

If you do a web search for Python projects related to cybersecurirty (or just about anything else) you'll see endless lists of ideas.

!rules 6 9

Please delete

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[opal mountain]

How do I look for candidates?

[exotic cove]

I'm familiar with these ideas, I'm more interested in reaching out to people whose hiring for these ideas. I'd happily take on these projects!

[vast cave]

Almost everything

[fringe sphinx]

If you're entering University next year, then you only need to decide on your major. Computer Science is the normal starting point, but different Universities have different programs.

You don't need to decide on a specific "field" within Computer Science.

[gritty rivet]

There are two job boards in the channel description

[vast cave]

I want to do coding full time, what do you think is good for me?

[fringe sphinx]

Computer Science

[vast cave]

But that's not only coding, it has theory stuff

[fringe sphinx]

That is true.

If you want a job as a software engineer, a computer science degree is the "normal" path.

[weak kindle]

What is abnormal path?

[fringe sphinx]

Not getting a computer science degree.

[weak kindle]

That's risky as well

[vast cave]

dang, now ur scaring me even more

[hearty island]

i highly encourage a comp sci degree if you want to go into software development

[vast cave]

cant I take that as a side thing

[fringe sphinx]

You just said you're going to University. Why would saying "major in computer science" be scary?

[hearty island]

side thing?

[vast cave]

I'm not saying that majoring in CS is scary, what I was saying is that I wanted to just study programming, nothing else

[vast cave]

like an extra course

[smoky quest]

Which role or career are you aiming at?

[vast cave]

honestly I dont know, I'm still new to the university thing, maybe writing softwares?

[fringe sphinx]

That's why I asked what your options are. You seem to want something, but haven't provided an alternative option.

[smoky quest]

then a CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[fringe sphinx]

CS is the major for SWEs. That's just the fact. Sure, some schools have specialized versions of CS programs (ie: some schools have a "software engineer" track of CS, but it's largely the same courses).

[vast cave]

cant I take CS on my own? (I'll brb)

[fringe sphinx]

That's not how degrees work.

[smoky quest]

think about it this way:

• If you want an accountant, you look for someone with an accountant degree
• if you look for a historian, you look for someone with an history degree
• if you look for a doctor, you look for someone who got their medical doctor degree

[vast cave]

dang rip F

[vast cave]

yeah true, so what should I enter? or what would be the best for me?

[smoky quest]

A CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation, especially if your goal is to get into a career related to developing software

[vast cave]

okay, what do you think about AI?

[smoky quest]

I love it! It could solve a lot of problems and create a lot of value.

[silk mauve]

AI has been pretty great for giving me templates, general directions, and basically help me find the right place to start looking for information, self learning has made me more aware of the usefulness of AI than anything, can't wait to take advantage of it whenever I get my next job lmao

[vast cave]

oooh, bet, so I should study AI? its mainly machine learning, right?

[hearty island]

rejected by UHG

😦

[silk mauve]

united healthcare group?

[smoky quest]

you can if you want. There is nothing mandatory

[fringe sphinx]

There’s a lot of theory in AI. And most schools don’t have a pure AI degree, it’s either a math, data science or computer science undergrad followed by a graduate degree.

(Context was OP not wanting Cs because it had a lot of theory)

[peak halo]

jobs involving AI require on average more education than conventional software development, so keep that in mind.

[hearty island]

yep

[silk mauve]

you may have dodged a bullet, times might be a little desperate, but I don't know if it's insurance company desperate yet

[vast cave]

bet

[vast cave]

dang

[vast cave]

so do I have to work 2x harder?

[peak halo]

two times harder than what?

[vast cave]

software development
P.S, do I need to put in 2x the work?

[peak halo]

idk that you'd need to work "twice as hard", but you'd need to plan for and have a positive attitude about taking a lot more theoretical math courses than are required for a standard CS bachelors degree.

[hearty island]

uhg is a huge company wdym, it was for an analyst rotational development program

[fringe sphinx]

This entire thread is nonsensical. You need a degree from an accredited university. The university will have specific requirements to achieve that degree. Start with looking at Universities near you, and look at what degrees they offer, and the course requirements for that degree. It doesn't matter what you want, it matters what they offer.

[silk mauve]

I mean it's an insurance company, ya know, literally sucking the life out of Americans everywhere n all that. Definitely a more subjective opinion I guess lmao

[vast cave]

😢 I'm very lost

[peak halo]

Your goal is (potentially) to work as an ML scientist, is it not?

[silk mauve]

Do you have any professional programming experience?

[fringe sphinx]

thread started here: #career-advice message

[vast cave]

what is an ML scientist?

[vast cave]

professional, not really, but I've worked on a few projects and sold them, so maybe..?

[peak halo]

someone who studies machine learning and applies it to different problems

[vast cave]

If that's what you do in AI, yes

[peak halo]

okay, so you need at least a bachelors degree in CS, and usually a masters degree as well.

The bachelors degree in CS will have standard requirements for all students, but there might be limited ability to specialize in ML. If you already know that you want to do ML professionally, you should take ML courses where you can.

For the masters degree, you would definitely want to focus on ML as much as you can, as opposed to more advanced software design courses or courses about cybersecurity.

[silk mauve]

also probably more importantly, what country are you from?

[peak halo]

you should read from the top of the thread (see #career-advice message)

[silk mauve]

oh, well, I definitely can't talk on the middle east

in the US, making and selling apps is definitely good experience to get a junior developer job, even higher if you know enough and apply to the right jobs. A job in developing machine learning or AI apps? You're not getting one without a relevant degree and/or professional programming experience. but obviously not all countries are the same

[vast cave]

got it. thanks

[vast cave]

I'll try my best to do something, I'm trying...

[gritty rivet]

Heheh, I don't want to dox myself but this is really funny to me because I live in a place where pretty much all the decent tech jobs are in insurance.

[silk mauve]

probably the most helpful thing would be finding a software dev recruiter in your country on LinkedIn or something and asking them what is usually required for such a job

[fringe sphinx]

and I thought it was PE that's sucking the life out of americans...

[gritty rivet]

PE... as in gym class?

[hearty island]

private equity?

[silk mauve]

no it's actually that satan worshiping toilet music

[fringe sphinx]

private equity. But I dunno, maybe gym class too?

[silk mauve]

(I thought it was gym class too)

[turbid bobcat]

What's wrong with private equity ? I have like 0 understanding on this stuff

[fringe sphinx]

I think PE has the most hate of financial related industries, perhaps more than insurance. The chief complaint is that their actions are largely predatory: short term raiding of corporate assets, eliminating jobs, etc all for the sake of a short term $$. It's a complex topic, so it was more a joke about who is more hated: insurance or PE.

Random article on the topic: https://daneke.medium.com/the-rise-of-pirate-equity-and-the-fall-of-american-business-f6e5ebc07f5b

[silk mauve]

heck, I didn't even know private equity was an industry

[hearty island]

just got an interview request

[regal axle]

Getting cold recruited on linkedin feels strange. I don't use linkedin so that alone raises some flags. But I guess I had enough key words to happen to be a good fit for this random project? idk. We shall see if it is actually real

[hearty island]

guys, should i do an interview for $75K in california for an IT analyst role? it's defo not enough to live in california

[sharp galleon]

i'm pretty familiar with a handful of programming languages (python, javascript, applescript) and already have a college degree (masters in math education) but am looking at trying to swap careers into something computer science related. is getting another degree the easiest/best way to get into the career, or is there licensing that is a better route? Or do I just throw out applications with my limited experience and try to find something entry to get experience and work my way up?

[true harness]

the range of CoL in california is very large

[hearty island]

Manhattan beach, california

[fringe sphinx]

wow. https://www.payscale.com/cost-of-living-calculator/California-Manhattan-Beach

[hearty island]

so i'm fucked then, gotcha. guess i won't be doing that interview lol

[turbid bobcat]

I see. Thank you for the info and the article, I'm gonna take a look

[deft herald]

The overall doesn't look too bad, but the housing is stupid

shouldn't have have like 50% of the weight of the calculation? I feel like that's at least the portion of income people spend on their housing these days

[fringe sphinx]

I'm not sure if it factors in neighborhoods that are commutable from there too, or if it's just real estate within the city.

[deft herald]

Really it's a pretty hard figure to calculate

[smoky quest]

It's more (not for household) than the median wage but it's also below shitty comp for any tech company

[plain bluff]

▲468%
Housing

[hearty island]

yep

[silk mauve]

it doesn't matter how many times I check, I always get wowed by just how expensive things are over there

like, I keep thinking houses are expensive here in Orlando after this real estate craze

[gritty rivet]

Made me curious to look at the data... You're right around the national average there now for housing prices... But the SWE salaries there are still substantially below.

[silk mauve]

yeah, it's pretty sad, there's some places that pay well, but I basically can't go back to working local after getting my remote job, unless I want a huge paycut

to be fair, my second last job was actually local, and was a pay increase from the remote job before that, hybrid, only one day a week in office, was a pretty alright gig. Only problem was I was a w2 contractor, no real room for growth, so after 1 year and a half I felt I needed to move on

[peak halo]

!unshh

[inner wren]

✅ unsilenced current channel.

[hearty island]

i’m over the rejection, i’ll keep trying for a better offer

[silk mauve]

it just taught me to not get too excited for any one position that you're applying for, basically gives you hope so that the disappointment stings all the more

unless you're not unemployed at the moment, the best time to find that dream job is when you already have a job

[vital wind]

I've read all of your given advices, thank you, now I need some time to research the literature you gave and to learn a bit more information on this context so I could even give an answer

[hearty island]

i got an internship rn

[silk mauve]

meh, that's a toss up then. Depends how much you like your internship or want to make more money. It's better than being unemployed still, so wouldn't kill you to take it slow and try to get a job you know you'll care about

[silk mauve]

I was in a similar situation. I guess I might still be. Got a system admin internship in school, got me a systems engineering job out of college, but wanted to get away from that area, so I found myself in devops. Honestly, knowing more about operating systems, networking and other general IT-ish stuff would be useful in pretty much every area of dev. Just find what you enjoy most. If you're still in the beginning of python, I'd recommend you check out the course I'm currently doing "100 days of code: the complete python pro bootcamp" on Udemy. One nice thing is it delves into a bunch of areas of dev, from working with GUI using tkinter and even making a little game or two, web backend using flask as well, data science using numpy, pandas and other libraries. It's a pretty good way to get a taste of it all

[hearty island]

yeah i’m just applying to jobs. i’ll see what i can get. i got a conditional offer, but there are certain things i gotta do for it

[long solar]

Should I get a data scientist degree or a cs degree? Ds will be a lot more math heavy but will allow me to be a quantitative analyst which makes a lot of $ and also it’s interesting

I could do cs with a minor in ds, might still land me that job

[peak halo]

I'm not convinced that "quantitative analyst" positions have consistent job responsibilities that are characteristically different than what those termed "data scientists" do. And I don't think "data scientist" ever should have entered our collective vocabulary.

Are you able to say which university you're looking at? I'd be interested to compare their data science and CS programs.

There are well defined standards for what a CS program has to be; as of yet, those standards are not as well-defined or agreed upon for a DS degree. So there's more risk that the program isn't very rigorous.

[peak halo]

I'm not reading all this tiny text.

[long solar]

I will have to ask my advisors about this then

Just read where the arrows are. If its too small because of discord, "quantitative analyst" is listed under potential careers for the A&DS majors at UNH

https://ceps.unh.edu/computer-science/program/bs/analytics-data-science-analytics-option
https://ceps.unh.edu/computer-science/program/bs/analytics-data-science-data-science-option

[ashen cave]

@long solar share the link

[peak halo]

(it's actually still unreadable even if I make Discord take up my entire screen)

[ashen cave]

Imo I agree with Stelercus, or at least what they were hinting at. “Data science” is a new thing and it’s really a catch-all for everything from data analyst to researcher

You should choose things that interest you and make you excited to learn and take on challenging projects

Data science is currently marketable but computer science is much more ‘tried and true’, so to speak

[long solar]

Finance and AI very much interest me, its mainly the quantitative analyst job that catches my eye. if its mainly the content of the courses that matter more than the major's title, the courses that each major requires are listed on each site. the data science option is the more math heavy one, but both list quantitative analyst as a potential career.

Currently I am in a BA algorithms option major. A semi-advisor told me today I could just do a data science minor, but she also said that if I had a choice between graduating a semester early with no minor or graduating a semester later with the data sci minor, she'd recommend graduating early.

[long solar]

I already am taking on challenging projects but not for class

[brazen plume]

It sounds like the analytics option is applied data science, which is more useful from a job perspective…

[long solar]

@peak halo I just read back that you'd want to compare with the CS program, here's the one I'm in https://ceps.unh.edu/computer-science/program/ba/computer-science-algorithms-option

[peak halo]

@long solar

"quantitative analyst" is listed under potential careers for the A&DS majors at UNH
job titles in the data science/AI/ML world are famously arbitrary. If it appears that "quantitative analysts" in your market are making more than "data scientists", there might be explanations like, there's only one company in town that calls any of their employees "quantitative analysts", and that company happens to pay more. It doesn't mean that of all the graduates in a class, the highest paid ones will be whichever got "quantitative analyst" positions.

[brazen plume]

I agree with @peak halo …the job titles in this industry are all over the place as well as the job requirements

You’re not limiting yourself by choosing any of these tbh

[long solar]

Quantitative analyst generally entails financial analysis, which will interest me regardless of pay, but it still will probably pay well

[brazen plume]

It definitely will!

It may just require “domain expertise”

But pay would always be similar for a data scientist working in finance industry

[pure raft]

I’ve gotten into endless arguments with people who have debated this on me, I don’t understand the dichotomy between any of this to be completely honest

[peak halo]

I'm signing off, but I'm not entirely sure what you're saying.

[long solar]

Thanks for the input @peak halo

[pure raft]

I’m basically agreeing with you but people have told me they’re stark differences

[peak halo]

stark differences between CS and data science?

[ashen cave]

@long solar there are many resources online about breaking into the 'quant space'. As Stelercus alluded to, note that there are many different types of 'quant' roles.

• Quant analyst at a traditional hedge fund: you may not do any coding, all your work will be in (complicated) excel sheets, bloomberg terminal, etc, but you need to have a keen eye for how business financials work, as well as complicated trading positions
• Quant at a 'quantiative hedge fund' (AQR, 2Sig, etc): could be mostly algos, hft, maybe less institutional knowledge on the trading position but much more math/cs, usually more of a 'tech' vibe, although some are currently notorious for turnover (Citadel)

[pure raft]

Yeah in terms of job possibilities, and that you can’t just cover everything with CS

[brazen plume]

This^ …CS is way too broad of a field now

[deft herald]

How about a bachelor's in CS and a master's in stats?

[brazen plume]

You build up the skills you need for the career you want

[ashen cave]

@deft herald The degree is not the answer - it is what you want to do

[brazen plume]

Sounds like data scientist route …

[peak halo]

I think that CS is regarded as the degree for too wide a spectrum of occupations. But academia moves slowly, and lots of occupations have sprung up in the last few decades. (Not that I was around to watch it happen.)

[deft herald]

That's what I was going for

[pure raft]

Gotcha, yeah I’m still a noob so I’m just trying to navigate this all.

@peak halo gotcha, so then would you see data science as the new dominant strain with AI/ML ? Or is CS still an equal route for that

[brazen plume]

The degree really doesn’t matter for this…but I will say a masters degree is almost becoming common in data science

[pure raft]

That’s good to know

[brazen plume]

I’m actually completing my masters in data science right now

[long solar]

Why is that? The masters becoming common

[pure raft]

Good for you that’s awesome. I’m hopefully finishing my bachelor’s in CS this year and have no idea when to start applying for things (I’m a returning student who’s worked as a teacher and audio tech for a while)

[brazen plume]

It’s just a really technical field that requires advanced knowledge of statistical methods, computer science and business

[ashen cave]

https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2019/comm/education-degrees-double.html

[brazen plume]

People in my program come from all different background…engineering, physics, chemistry, marketing, economics, psychology…it really doesn’t matter

[pure raft]

That’s awesome