career-advice

[hidden bloom]

this isnt a resume but ya thanks

[near ocean]

Im sure it exists somewhere and im also sure people are proud of their little UML doodles

[blazing harbor]

Mhm corporations that receive lots of applications don’t even bother considering your app if their program couldn’t parse your resume

[near ocean]

Its for a presentation, theyre past the CV parsing stage

[blazing harbor]

Ah I see

Also hmm how do you compare swe at big tech vs swe at investment bank

[hidden bloom]

is this bad? (i cannot talk for too long about this - this is just two bullets of one slide and there are 3 slides that i must go thru in 5 mins)

I am trying to show that I am (learning from past mistakes / collaborating well with my partner / planning before coding ) etc. (show not tell)

[hearty island]

i see you've been spending time on this, when is the presentation?

[hidden bloom]

tuesday

[hearty island]

ah, best of luck!!

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384>

[bitter lichen]

?

[near ocean]

Read the rules

[analog sun]

Check out #rules 9 and 6

[bitter lichen]

my bad

[vapid jay]

hey

[cobalt moat]

How do I fill out fafsa tax information if my parent doesn’t file taxes?

[true harness]

uh. there are options to not input your parents info

[cobalt moat]

Will I get money if I do that?

[true harness]

i wouldn't know the answer to that

[cobalt moat]

And I think I have to report family stuff, I don’t fall into any of the catagory where I’m excempt

[lucid vapor]

i think you can use ordinary paycheck info? don't remember exactly though

[true harness]

not filing taxes seems kind of illegal. that might impede your ability to get financial aid

[cobalt moat]

Nah if your income is under a certain threshold you don’t need file taxes

[true harness]

wouldn't that be an option on the form then?

[cobalt moat]

I didn’t see it last time

[regal axle]

Well if they are making under the threshold for filing taxes ,,, you qualify for funding. There 100% will be a way to fill it out.

https://www.fastweb.com/financial-aid/articles/how-to-complete-the-fafsa-when-a-parent-didn-t-file-her-federal-income-tax-return
Yea. W2 or 1099 is what you need

[hearty whale]

can somone help me with my python prject

[hearty island]

try #1035199133436354600

[hearty whale]

thanks, how long do i have to wait for a response on average if you know>

[hearty island]

depends on people available and your particular problem

[hearty whale]

mine pretty basic but I need king of quickly

[peak halo]

there's no way to guarantee that you'll get help in any specific amount of time, or at all. your best chance is to ask your question in a way that's easy for people to start answering, per the instructions in #❓｜how-to-get-help

[turbid bobcat]

Still trying to figure out how to network at a distance

[pine sleet]

routers

[turbid bobcat]

I see what you did there

[vapid jay]

For your resumes do you do PDF, DOCX or something else?

[hearty island]

pdf

[peak halo]

pdf, but you pretty much have to have all text that's in it as raw text for copy-pasting into online applications

because they make you restate basically all the information that's in it (perhaps so no one can complain that their PDF text extraction is wrong)

[vapid jay]

Thats what made me ask is I read today that ATS struggles with PDF

[smoky quest]

they struggle with everything

[jolly sluice]

#bot-commands

[true harness]

there are ways to make a pdf easily parseable, and ways to make it very difficult

[turbid bobcat]

Any way to test it reliably though ?

[gritty rivet]

Just avoid columns and other unnecessary formatting.

[gritty rivet]

Of course there are tools like this but who knows how good they are https://www.jobscan.co/

[turbid bobcat]

I tried submiting my cv

I tried again, got it

You are using a .pdf resume. Most ATS can process .pdf files but more accurately process .docx files. Consider using a .docx file instead.

interesting

[dawn leaf]

Don't say that you were the first engineer it may be taken to mean that the company is bad, the code was bad, you didn't have mentorship or learning (not saying this is true, but people will think this)

[vapid jay]

okay, removed it

[dawn leaf]

idk what a "database reduction" is

[vapid jay]

how would you say reducing the size of the overall database architecture by converting it to third normal form?

[dusky bridge]

you just need more work exp brother you're massively top heavy in academics

[true harness]

what do you think the resume is for

what roles are you applying for?

[vapid jay]

anything entry level in IT

[true harness]

you might want to have a few versions of your resume for certain roles. for software engineering jobs, the majority of your cert section is irrelevant, but it might be relevant for cybersec jobs. so for software engineering roles, you could have a version that replaces those certs with more projects, or elaborates more on your software engineering internship

[true harness]

how are you measuring size here?

[vapid jay]

I do have a version without the cybersec certificates but found that I get more calls with them on. Maybe I'll do a few more projects and substitute projects for certs.

[vapid jay]

Number of tables

[upper flume]

why does it say intern when you did all that stuff? am i misunderstanding or did you do all that as a intern?

everything is bold except where it says you are awesome

[true harness]

that bullet doesn't make sense to me, tbh. i don't get how you would use those technologies to reduce the number of tables

[vapid jay]

I did all of that as a $16 per an hour intern. I would go in meetings. My project manager would say good job on the contracts over hundreds of thousands of dollars and I would walk away with $150 dollars ish 🙂

[upper flume]

what the frick?!

[vapid jay]

yeah I was exploited to all hell

[upper flume]

well luckily, you retained the ability to do that

[vapid jay]

I struggle to explain that project. Maybe you can come up with a better description? It was a database that was not optimized. I significantly optimized it by doing a full redesign of the database architecture. Then had to worry about the migration. Also made use of the technologies mentioned to complete the backend. I'm really trying to explain multiple different aspects of a project in a single bullet.

[vapid jay]

lol

[true harness]

maybe you should be using multiple bullets then? and I'm not sure what you mean by "optimized". elaborate on that

[vapid jay]

In Database Theory & Design, a big aspect to developing a database is normalizing the database to not have redundancies. Redundant data in your database which serves as the foundation of your application can be very bad. In the case of the project I worked on they had very very redundant data. A common thing to have in a database is a user table for instance. Imagine not having a user table and having a different table for every single role (not very efficient).

[true harness]

I know what normalizing is. saying you optimized a database is vague, saying you normalized it is not; hence, you could probably be more specific in the bullet

[vapid jay]

ah, you phrased it as a question so I explained

you were hinting to say normalized rather than optimized

[true harness]

I really think that should be 2 bullets at least. it doesn't make sense to combine them to me

[vapid jay]

I agree

I may break up all of them actually. What I gathered here is to expand my work experience section so I can add shorter more concise bullets.

@true harness I may write scripts to farm League of Legends accounts. Do you think that would be a good project to put here?

[dusky bridge]

sucks donut but that's the only way to get out of the suck

[true harness]

if it demonstrates skills relevant to the job you apply to

[vapid jay]

ok

[spice forge]

So I have about 6 months of experience doing software development for a startup on a contract basis. This was my first ever job.

Does it make it significantly easier to find jobs? Or do recruiters not care that much about 6 months of exp?
And would you still look for entry-level positions?

[crisp stream]

IMO, you should still look for entry-level jobs
6 months doesn't feel like enough time for you to have dipped your toes into much collaborative and production work, if you haven't done it before

[scenic pumice]

hello whats the usual amount to sell a 1 page front end website

[summer roost]

This channel's topic is #career-advice

[gloomy void]

where do I go to send a google form for my college class

[dull jay]

Not sure that makes sense in general or for this channel

[past ermine]

hlw chat

i need some advise from the experts ,
do backend development has any career in freelancing sector ?

[gaunt depot]

hey guys

[sly gulch]

hi

[gaunt depot]

hi @sly gulch i have a question

[sly gulch]

Me too

[gaunt depot]

idk if i can answer but go on

my question is how can i apply to my first job and how can i show my projects? is it showing my github ?

[lucid stag]

fianal

enginerring

[vapid jay]

Hiii

🤠 What brances of math are the most important for an average programmer? 🤔

[buoyant seal]

None from higher maths unless you are game developer or working with graphics
In this case Linear algebra is useful
Theory of games can be handy and Physics

Also math can be useful if u a data satanist
Linear Regression is commonly useful there

[vapid jay]

🫡

[buoyant seal]

Probably if u a in fin tech, u will find more math applications

Also there is a lot of math options to build formulas in monitoring systems (like Datadog). Average developer could benefit understanding how to work with monitoring systems

[vapid jay]

[gritty rivet]

I created a website that described and linked to my main projects on GitHub. You resume can also describe those projects, and link to the website with more depth. A dedicated portfolio website is very much optional but I feel that it helped

[fringe sphinx]

There’s no ‘average’ programmer, but; the average professional SWE has a CS degree which means you’ll study: Calc, Linear Algebra, Discrete Math and Stats. Of these, I use stats regularly, and my understanding of the rest come up relatively frequently (altho I’m not ‘doing math’).

[pearl mango]

Do you guys think that AI is becoming the "new" normal? The AI hype is dying. Just like the remote work hype at the beginning of COVID, when tech companies started to hire personnel in mass, and then when COVID ended, they fired mass, remote work became the "new normal".

Before the introduction of ChatGPT, there wasn't much "interesting" news about AI (it didn't become the main topic everyone discussed about as much as the introduction of ChatGPT). Then I guess it will continue to live as a tool to assist people, and when it is able to replace certain jobs (in the not so far future, jobs like programmers and novel proofreader?), new opportunities will be created to direct AI to create stuff for people (just like how high-level programming language users don't need much understanding about memory management, a feature in lower-level programming languages, and still be able to program, but it's still better if they do?).

[hearty island]

ai will not replace us lol

[pearl mango]

Was there any instances that automation (in the industrial revolution) not able to replace human labor completely?

[lucid vapor]

My favorite analogy (stolen from Infinimata I think) has been that of the calculator. Before the calculator, mathematicians exist. Yes, the calculator took some jobs away from "human calculators." But ultimately, mathematicians have been freed to go solve more interesting problems. That is I think what is happening here.

Hell, we see it today. Tools like Copilot have helped certain people with dev work.

[hearty island]

it's helped, but it hasn't replaced (at least i think so)

[lucid vapor]

The real issue here is that some folks are not verifying AI's work right, and the way AI works makes it difficult to ensure it's correct forever without a lot of human work. That part is going to need work (that afaik does not exist at present).

[near ocean]

Talking to a chatbot is not really an example of automation
Theres all kinds of scaffolding tools but you dont see anyone complain how they are taking anyone's job

[pearl mango]

So even AI is going to make human error.

[lucid vapor]

Yes. There are countless examples where it produces broken code today. (And I don't think it'll ever stop until we get a closer AI-compiler/linter/interpreter connection, but that's another topic.)

[hearty island]

my friend tried to make chat gpt solve two sum and it epically crashed and burned. that was a while ago tho, idk how far it's come since then

[pearl mango]

But I guess when they becomes smarter to a certain extent, the amount of knowledge needed for a person to know to persue a certain expertise is going to increase generation to generation.

[hearty island]

in an interview, you're encouraged to use meaningful variable names right? like when you solve a problem? bc i see neetcode just using i and n and stuff like that

[gritty rivet]

Right, but it's hard to give meaningful names when there is no actual meaning and 'i' and 'n' are so commonly used that their meaning is pretty clear. If they actually represent something more concrete and you want to use a more specific name, that's not a bad thing

[hearty island]

i see

i see myself fucking up when i use other variable names than i and n now lol

[hearty island]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ITCareerQuestions/comments/mw7ueq/is_an_mis_major_worth_it_in_the_long_run_jobs/ interesting thread i was reading

i would say MIS is very similar to my degree (business analytics)

[hearty island]

rejected by mufg

[wise lark]

Any one knows where to get remote internships as a python or MERN developer

[pine sleet]

LinkedIn, probably

[wise lark]

Didn't get yet tried it

[hearty island]

linkedn is your best bet

[oak tide]

Hey guys, I need resume advice. I've applied for over 5,000 positions and have still not received any offers. I attached my resume to this message

[near ocean]

This is the entire document?

[regal flame]

5,000 😮

[oak tide]

My resume also includes the college that I went to (and my year of graduation, which was this year), but I cut that information out

[oak tide]

Yeah I've spent so much time 🥲

[regal flame]

You could write a section, like your personal profile

That talks a little about what you want for your career and what you are interested in

[pine sleet]

It seems like your biggest section is the skills section. Ideally you want to show, rather than tell because anyone can list off skills

[hearty island]

where is recursive error and "demonstrated skills 👏 "

[oak tide]

Thanks for the feedback! I see what you mean, but how can I do a better job of "showing" my skills? Should I do more projects?

[hearty island]

5000 is wild what country are you in?

[sly gulch]

My question is similar haha.
btw, github definitely helps.
.
How to find legit recruiters? Like, I'm afraid simply googling will results in shady recruiters.

[pine sleet]

Go to career fairs and other networking events

[hearty island]

the networking events in my area are shit which is shocking bc i'm on long island

[oak tide]

I am in the United States. The city I live in doesn't have a lot of software engineers, so it's hard for me to network with people in the industry

[hearty island]

still, 5000 is kinda crazy. what are you using to apply? are you tailoring your resume?

[pine sleet]

Projects are good. Also highlight more specifically how you used your skills in your projects and previous work experience. It all feels a bit vague right now

[turbid bobcat]

should have links to projects on github, there's a bit of repetition cuz you list the skills but then also mention them when describing the projects and in the work section, work should be above projects, order is usually work exp -> projects -> education

[hearty island]

i have education -> work experience -> projects ( but i don't have any projects on mine since i don't apply for a lot of swe roles)

[pine sleet]

educational is typically at the top for fresh grads but I'm not sure if OP is one

[hearty island]

yeah i don't think OP is one

[turbid bobcat]

maybe also try cover letters, I've heard from people that it made a huge difference to them

there's also recommendation letters if possible

[oak tide]

I've been using LinkedIn, Monster, Dice, and Indeed. And no I haven't been tailoring my resume. Is that worth doing? Because most companies automatically reject me, so I'm worried about spending so much time tailoring my resume only to get rejected anyways

[hearty island]

i tailor my resume and i'd say it does help

[sly gulch]

like, meetups?

[pine sleet]

sure

[oak tide]

Thanks! I'll do that

[turbid bobcat]

it is possible that you are being rejected by ATS and not by humans, the ATS will measure if your cv aligns with the job apparently

so its probly worth it to tailor

[sly gulch]

I mean, literally meetup.com ? Or do you mean something else?

[pine sleet]

I don't know what that is. I mean stuff like meetups, conferences, career fairs, etc

[hearty island]

where do you find those

[oak tide]

Yes, I already have a cover letter, and I have my Github link in there. I never thought of adding the link to my resume, so I'll do that

[pine sleet]

they probably won't look at it in the initial stages tbh

[oak tide]

Yeah I think I've mainly been getting rejected by ATS. However, sometimes, a recruiter will reach out to me with interest, but after I respond back to them and send them my resume, they tell me that they found someone else to fill the role or they just ghost me with no explanation

[turbid bobcat]

I also get that, I think they just spam messages to thousands of people to boost cv submissions

[hearty island]

where do they reach out? indeed?

[turbid bobcat]

sometimes on linkedin, others directly to my email

[oak tide]

They will reach out to me on LinkedIn, Indeed, or they will email me

[hearty island]

yeah i get tons on indeed but iirc it's not actually them

[turbid bobcat]

last one I got was for "Principle R&D Engineer Position", I have 2YOE

[oak tide]

I see. Is it possible to find a list of companies that have actually been hiring people? Because I've heard also that companies put up fake job postings and have no intention of hiring

[turbid bobcat]

idk if they do that, but like, imo, rn your objective should be to get through ATS, by the point you get to 100 cvs sent without an interview, it's time to start iterating on the CV, get it reviewed, etc

you're def over that mark with 5k cvs sent

[hearty island]

maybe your resume needs some revamping

[oak tide]

Yeah you're right but over the past few months, I have been updating my resume. I've even asked ChatGPT for keywords to use in my resume, but that hasnt helped me either

[turbid bobcat]

if you're not employed (like me), it's probly a good time to do some upskilling too. I've been doing leetcode, studying algos and working on cool projects.

[hearty island]

i've joined the leetcode journey too lol, neetcode's been very helpful

[turbid bobcat]

is totally worth it, been learning tons

I didnt like neetcode, leetcode-150 fills the exact same purpose and is easier to start

[hearty island]

neetcode has the entire leetcode 150 on his website for free lol

[turbid bobcat]

leetcode 150 is free

[hearty island]

so is his website

[oak tide]

Yeah I've been Leetcoding since this January and have learned a bunch. I have a word document of my leetcode notes, and so far, I have over 90,000 words. Do you think I should mention that in my resume?

[turbid bobcat]

I mean, what works works

[hearty island]

i mean he has a course, but you don't need to buy it

[pine sleet]

probably not

[hearty island]

i use a spreadsheet

[turbid bobcat]

idk actually, if leetcode stats is a + on a resume. I've been placing my solutions on a github repo where I place all my short stuff, like small exercises and kaggle challanges etc

[near ocean]

I dont think i would list leetcode stuff on my cv ever
Its cringe

[turbid bobcat]

even if you're one of those competitor programmers

[near ocean]

If you do competitions elsewhere then yea

[turbid bobcat]

I think if I ever do all the leetcode exercises I'll place it on my cv maybe, idk, there are thousands feels like a feat

[pine sleet]

i think putting leetcode stats might be fine in certain situations but saying "i took a lot of notes on leetcode" is probably meh

better to make unique projects

[hearty island]

otherwise you kinda sound like those people who are like oh i solved 500 leetcode problems, you only need x

[near ocean]

Doing the exercises doesn't mean much, you can find the solutions online

[hearty island]

in true biz school fashion

[oak tide]

Oh okay I was just asking because I've learned so much about data structures and algorithms from leetcode, so I was wondering if i should mention that, but I wont

[oak tide]

That's true

[turbid bobcat]

someone shared a cool website the other day

this thing https://www.jobscan.co/

@oak tide might be helpful to understand the ats thing

[oak tide]

Thanks!

[true harness]

overall, I would order the sections as: skills, work xp, projects, education. or education at the top if you've recently graduated.
I would compact your skills section, it should be the thinnest part. you can do this by putting more things on a single line. I've attached mine as an example
your work experience should be the largest section. you need more detail on what you did and what impact you had. use the STAR method

[turbid bobcat]

what is juniper ?

[oak tide]

Thanks! I'll do that.

[true harness]

your skills section should correspond to other bullets in the rest of the resume. and you should show and not tell, e.g., "I used Spring to make an API that served 10 million requests per second", not "I used Spring"

[true harness]

graphql client and server library for rust

[turbid bobcat]

cool, been wondering if it's worth it for me to learn rust, doesn't seem very mature in the ML side

also, I usually spread out the skills section throughout the CV, so like I have a bullet point and then the related skills, idk if that's worst

[true harness]

this seems fine

[turbid bobcat]

are repetitions okay ? for ex I'm not mentioning here the ML framework I used cuz I already mentioned it on the bullet point above

I mention it here, but then the problem is that it doesn't fully convey the stuff I used, in this one I also used fastapi but dont mention it here cuz I'll be mentioning it directly after (haven't annoned my cv yet)

[oak tide]

Currently, it's hard for me to do the "showing" part because I havent made any projects that can actually be used by others. Should I work on doing that?

[true harness]

it doesn't need to be used by people, though that's a bonus. you can describe specific techniques or interesting things you did

[shy whale]

is market really bad? any one able to switch?

[fringe sphinx]

Switch what?

!rule 9 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[crisp stream]

We do not allow unapproved advertising nor paid work. Read the #rules, please.

[shy whale]

switch jobs

[fringe sphinx]

Lots of people switch jobs. Tell us more?

[tender hedge]

what is the difference between computer science and information technology(it) and can it do data engineer and AI?

[fringe sphinx]

You’re asking about college degrees or the fields in general? CS degrees teach the math, theory and practice of computing… and is generally the first step to a software engineering career. IT (MIS) degrees prepare you roll for adjacent roles in technology, primarily around operations and administration (and planning) of computing systems. So, if you want to be a programmer, get a CS degree. If you want a job in tech that’s not programming, consider MIS/IT

[tender hedge]

college degrees im a 1st year IT student

im in to data engineer and coding should i learn that out side the university?

[peak halo]

If you want to get into data engineering or AI, a degree in IT probably won't help at all. You should switch to CS as soon as possible.

[lapis wind]

It is always a good thing to practice stuff outside of what the Uni teaches, in general for data engineering one of the most common things we use is:

• Python
• SQL
• Scala

There are a lot more languages and frameworks we use, but they are not the core of our system.

[unborn ice]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1113716405192376351.gif?v=1&size=48&quality=lossless

[hearty island]

it’s quite funny tho, some MIS degrees do data structures and algos

[buoyant obsidian]

hi

[hearty island]

still, if you're going into software engineering your best bet is CS

[silk dirge]

i need

[hearty island]

huh

[crude wing]

What about Apache? Would you call that a key topic to know in DE?

[lapis wind]

The webserver Apache? Or Apache the software foundation?

The Apache software foundation is a group that covers an insanely wide range of tools, so it is a bit hard to answer that question

[crude wing]

Their range of tools. PArticularly Spark and Airflow.

Those are the ones I'm learning now because much of my research has referenced those tools in particular.

[lapis wind]

Yeah, but you see a lot of apache tool everywhere in general even outside of DE

We use a lot of Airflow and legacy AWS datapipelines, spark is generally what we're using scala for mostly

[brazen island]

For what it's worth CS is called IT in some countries. I think it's important to check where they're from in this case 😄

[crude wing]

I haven't looked into Scala yet. How are you using it?

[lapis wind]

We use it for everything in the spark processing

PySpark is a bit crap once you go beyond some light work, so you are then left with the Scala system

[pure path]

Hello

[limber glade]

Hello guys

Im new to Python. Any Tips?

[summer roost]

what languages do you currently work with?

[opaque monolith]

and btw i m interested in maths also

and programming is also an interest

of mine

@trim crypt

[trim crypt]

Ive been summoned

[opaque monolith]

can u suggest me something that i can learn

[trim crypt]

What do you wanna be?

Game Dev? ML Engineer? Web Dev? Pokemon Master?

[opaque monolith]

idk what are different works

[trim crypt]

Have a browse at https://roadmap.sh

[opaque monolith]

ml means??

[trim crypt]

Machine Learning

[opaque monolith]

wth

bruhh

i have not even heard the names of most of these

and in game developer

theres a whole library

[trim crypt]

Time to start reading and learning everything

No excuse if you wanna be the best candidate to get hired for the job @opaque monolith

Learn and build everything

[opaque monolith]

hmm

i will do reserach and find the best work for me

then will start learning

but bro do you work in real life also or only iin discord

[proper spindle]

What the time i can say to my self you finished the basic of python?you can go learn more thinks

[trim crypt]

IRL

[trim crypt]

If you have already learnt everything in here https://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/python/ then you've covered the basics. Congrats. Move on. Build something.

[hushed sable]

oops

[limber glade]

Your right lol

[limber glade]

And do what?

[dense summit]

you're*

[twin hollow]

FullStack developer looking for new challenges.(Prefer Job)
I have a strong track record of delivering high-quality work on time and on budget.
Check out my portfolio at http://Milky6.info.

[limber glade]

Sorry. Im Greman.

[vapid jay]

What do python developers mostly do?

[buoyant seal]

Write messy ORM SQL code in rest applications of Django, FastAPI and flask

Cover with unit tests and repeat
(For backend role)

[gritty rivet]

Build stuff with Python, plus maybe sit in pointless meetings

[hearty island]

sprint retrospectives 🫠🫠🫠

[vapid jay]

oh

[hearty island]

although im not even technical i have to sit through sprint retrospectives too for my internship and i hate them

[fringe sphinx]

There are all sorts of types. Me? I try to spend as much time talking to customers.

[frail cargo]

i need help
i am 15 and i am intermediate in programming
every online freelancing site that hires either requires money or 18+ but i am not that
i want a job cause you know i dont want my father to do everything so i wanna know what should i do or how should i find a job or any other way to make some money

[peak halo]

I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but you're not going to make any money doing programming if you're 15 and in an intermediate programming class. People generally don't trust that 15 year olds know what they're doing. And what you've learned so far is probably nothing compared to what you need to know to produce a software product on your own.

[hidden bloom]

for the behavioural interview question: what accomplishment ur most proud of (im an international student) - could i say immigrating or is that a bad example?
also an interviewer asked : r u interviwing /applying to other places? was that a trick question...lol i said yes i was. but ugh. If i said no.. then i look desperate and not valuable and I would be lying cus I am interviewing at other places...

[fringe sphinx]

It’s a fine example. And, yes or no for other places is fine. I think yes is the better answer, personally

[vapid jay]

guys do i need to know about frames if i want to start making income with python?

[hearty island]

frames?

[fringe sphinx]

Answered in pydis

[vapid jay]

Where should I start about making money in python?

what are the fundementals that I should know to start doing something to be able to earn money

[mint oracle]

Earning money is not easy u need to know lot of things

[vapid jay]

what are those things

[mint oracle]

do internship!

[vapid jay]

whats that

[mint oracle]

what's ur age?

[vapid jay]

18, this might be weird, but i have no expereince with online jobs

[mint oracle]

Getting job is tough market is bad

u can get internship just learn and trying
https://roadmap.sh/

[vapid jay]

I know, but i have to

My situation is kinda hard right now, and I can't keep asking my father for money to buy anything i want or i need

So, anything you try to help me with will work

[mint oracle]

I am also unemployed i can't help you!

[pine sleet]

Are you in college or university right now?

[vapid jay]

High school, 11th grade

[vapid jay]

how does this roadmap go?

How to 💰 with 🐍 very ⚡

[pine sleet]

Best thing to do now would be focus on your grades and get into the best college you can and work towards a CS degree

[vapid jay]

Im doing my best for that too, but I really need to have an income...
I can't keep relying on my pops

[pine sleet]

There are plenty of other ways to make income, are you in the US?

[sand patio]

generally, it’ll be more feasible for you to work part time or something as opposed to getting a tech job while you’re still in high school.

[pine sleet]

Retail & fast food are usually always hiring and in need of hands

[vapid jay]

Nope im in Iraq

[pine sleet]

Well, I'm sure retail and fast food are probably still hiring there

[vapid jay]

Well, theres nothing such as part time jobs here, its all full time, 8+ hours, and all of em are mostly in morning, where my school is also morning

[pine sleet]

Well that is unfortunate. How do other kids your age become self sustaining, economically there typically?

[prime quiver]

Is it worth doing a CS degree wanting to be a software engineer? Online says it’s a good idea but then people irl say that I’m gonna be wasting my time since I can learn the majority of it online

[pine sleet]

you will want to do a CS degree if at all possible

[prime quiver]

I will be able to do it but I’m not sure whether to do that or an apprenticeship instead

[pine sleet]

Are you in the US?

[prime quiver]

Nope

[hidden bloom]

I have a question what to do When you do not know answer to technical?
Is this a bad approach:
Do not lie, beat around bush, ask question back? Own up admit you do not know but are willing to learn?

[vapid jay]

they quit school

[pine sleet]

Often times the interviewer wants to see into your brain and how your thought process works. ask questions, work through it with them together, don't just sit there in silence sweating

[pine sleet]

And work full time?

[vapid jay]

yeah

most of their work is construction related things, like painting walls, construction, i don't know what it's called in english but they merge iron pipes etc...

@pine sleet

[pine sleet]

Well, I'm not too sure about Iraq but this is probably a conversation you'll need to have with your father about your finances and if and how he will be able to support you were you to go to college

[fringe sphinx]

A good engineer asks clarifying questions, and a good interviewee is clear about what they know and shares their thought process. It’s expected you won’t know the answer to some questions. Practice -not- knowing the answer.

[oak reef]

Hello, I wanna improve my knowledge in Python, does anyone know of any courses?

[pine sleet]

!res

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[hard rune]

Hey what can I do for taking a job in abroad 🙄 as a devloper

[oak reef]

Thanks!

but there isn't advanced difficulty 🥲

[tight imp]

Hi

[dry wren]

i love mrbeast

[kind marsh]

@tight imp we aren't interested in people advertising services like that here

[gritty rivet]

You should look for people nearby on LinkedIn or whatever the local equivalent is who have achieved what you want to achieve. They will know better then the people you will find here

[gritty rivet]

Get an advanced degree, a lot of professional experience and connections. There's no shortcut

[hard rune]

But there must be some way

🙄🙄🙄

[gritty rivet]

Education is an investment that delivers long-term returns. You get back what you put in. If your financially desperate and can manage to get some paid apprenticeship right now (not likely for most people), then maybe you need to do that. But it's almost guaranteed that you will earn more in the long run if you get a degree

[hard rune]

Okay If I say I already have engineering degree so now what can I do for it 🙄🙄

Hey bruh do you know any exam to full fill my need 🙄

[gritty rivet]

Apply for jobs in your own country. If you're not getting call backs, get feedback on your resume.

If you're absolutely determined to work abroad, getting an advanced degree abroad first is a whole lot more realistic then getting hired abroad with no experience there

[hard rune]

😳oh is it works ?

If I say I don't know what I Choose and where . So what you give me advise

🙄🙄

[vapid jay]

If you are an python dev are you mostly focused on security or do other people handle the security of the application?

[hard rune]

Means . I didn't get

[true harness]

it could be either

[vapid jay]

wdym like sometimes you do both sometimes its seperate?

[spark cobalt]

Application to application thing. Sometimes yes, I'd assume mostly no. (Oh I read that question entirely wrong)

[spark cobalt]

Apply to jobs online.

[hard rune]

Give a website where I can apply for it 🙄

[spark cobalt]

Indeed, LinkedIn, etc. 🙄

[true harness]

it just depends on the company. maybe if you're in a more established company with cybersecurity people, you might have less focus on security

[vapid jay]

ah tysm

[hard rune]

Oh 🙄 Ook I'll try these sites 🤔

[spark cobalt]

Good luck 🙄

[hard rune]

Have you ever tried anything?

[spark cobalt]

I've tried a lot of things. For example yesterday I tried out some Pad Thai from a restaurant I've been wanting to eat at.

[hearty island]

omg wilder is that you? for some reason my brain never picked it up

[spark cobalt]

Hoi

[hard rune]

So good night guys I'll see you tomorrow 😊

[spark cobalt]

Gn

[dense cape]

I'm currently interviewing for a role where they give you the option to do either a take-home online assessment or a live coding interview. Do you think that prefering one over the other can impact the process, and why?

The option only applies for the first interview though. The second one must be live

[white relic]

if they do prefer one over the other, I have no idea which one it would be 🤷‍♂️

personally (as an interviewee) I'd prefer live interview, take home stuff is too much like unpaid work

[true harness]

i don't think i'd read that much into it. if they preferred one they'd just make everyone do it

[fringe sphinx]

And if they cared which one you chose, uh; that’s the point you just made… lol.

[vapid jay]

How to earn with python ?

[hearty island]

a job

[vapid jay]

How

[hearty island]

by applying

[vapid jay]

You are not giving a helpful answer

[hearty island]

you get a job by applying, which is a way to earn with python.

[near ocean]

Youre not asking a real question
Get a job, they pay you for your services
You can find a job by looking at job boards and applying to them

[vapid jay]

How to find a job, what do you need to get a job, what are the requirements ( skill set ), I don't wanna get a job what are the other available options and answer the same questions above, that's not a real answer

[vapid jay]

You think that I don't know that already 😂

[near ocean]

You find a job by looking at job boards
You can see what you need for a job by looking at the adverts on job boards

[vapid jay]

I dont want to get a job ok

[near ocean]

Why are you asking about earning money then

[hearty island]

that's like the main way to earn money, a job

[vapid jay]

Free lance bruh

[hearty island]

you can earn money by freelancing by looking at what the customers are asking for and seeing if that fits your skillset. just very difficult.

[leaden palm]

those are jobs

[near ocean]

With extra steps

[true harness]

and a lot more work involved

[vapid jay]

There is a difference bruh

[vapid jay]

It was an option

[near ocean]

The same process applies to freelancing
You go to sites like upwork and fiverr and whatever and you apply to jobs

[cobalt moat]

Just started my first engineering internship and apparently they treat interns like gods instead of a wooden chair in the corner 🤭 so excited!!

[robust island]

Congrats!

[fringe sphinx]

The secret to entrepreneurship is to sell something people want to buy. This isn’t just a fortune cookie wisdom, it’s really essential. You want to free lance? Find someone who will pay you to do something you can do. This is certainly easier said than done: but people do pull it off with hustle and grind. But it’s not easy, and don’t expect people to just hire you to be a ‘programmer’: people pay contractors for problems to be solved

[hearty island]

hmmm thoughts? should i fill it out?

i never even considered them progressing me

i think i should seize every opportunity i get tbh, so i'm probably going to fill it in

[stoic atlas]

can't be worse than canonical's questionnaire

They ask about high school achievements regardless of yoe

[hearty island]

what's canonical, oh nvm googled it

[stoic atlas]

they make ubuntu

[fringe sphinx]

Yup, zero opportunity cost so why not!

[compact spoke]

How can i master machine learning for data science? Also i am weak at maths.

[hard rune]

Good morning guys 😌

[peak halo]

Master it? There's no standard for what it means to "master" machine learning, but if there were one, it would probably take decades to achieve.

But machine learning is applied math, so start with that. Especially calculus, linear algebra, and prob/stat.

I guess machine learning as presently defined hasn't really existed for long enough for "decades" to be the amount of time it would take. But in either case, people who practice ML don't frame their progress in terms of "mastery"

[elder girder]

Is anyone good at python coding? I wanna learn and dont know where to start, Shoot me a dm or ping me.

[celest kite]

Clearly they just want to become you...

[limpid marlin]

you can start from any resource, YT has a ton of useful vids to start from
since python is way more easier than C/CPP/Java you'll be able to learn it quickly

[vapid jay]

I am not very experienced in Coding however from what i know after learning the basics from yt or something try to do lots of random projects for me I like to learn by attempting to make projects that either help me or someone else like invoicing systems etc. You can go to places like w3schools which have some very nice documentation.

[fringe sphinx]

!resources Theres lots of ways to learn, ebooks (see the link below), yt, courses like CS50, etc. find what works for you. If you get stuck, ask in r #python-discussion where many people are just starting, like you.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[onyx basin]

Where can a under 18 yo programmer find work? Or even small projects to work on?

[lapis wind]

Open source perhaps, but you will not get paid for it

Or working at a local shop or supermarket if you want to earn a bit of money (Very very rare that a tech company will employ anyone under 18)

[gritty rivet]

Fiverr allows users 13-18 to do work under a parent / adult guardian's account. But it's extremely competitive and you're unlikely to earn any significant amount of money without a whole lot of skill and effort. See what CF8 said

[onyx basin]

Thanks! Noted, I'll fetch for some small local tech shops

[fringe crane]

hi

[twin scarab]

hello guys, I need a bot for discord to open/close timeouts on pd

[hearty island]

wrong spot, try #discord-bots

[onyx basin]

Thanks mate, I'll talk to my parents 🙏

[spark cobalt]

You can also consider building things like a website for local family businesses. It doesn't have to be for a tech company (if anything, "small tech shops" are harder for new people in the professional world). The bar to entry should be a lot lower, and probably less competitive too. Can talk to local businesses you frequent.

[regal axle]

I always hear this "local business" thing. What is that like? No "mom and pop shops" survive where I live. Actually, doing anything "maker" related is tough. No shops for it at all. But like ... do they actually exist? Do you guys actually live in places that have stores that are not just massive corps and have enough online presence to be found by google?

[tiny wigeon]

gyms, restaurants

[gritty rivet]

I don't know what you mean by "maker" in this context but yes, there are easily hundreds of small businesses within 20 minutes drive from me and I don't even live in an urban area per se. I'm sure this varies by country and region somewhat but I don't follow what you are surprised about

[regal axle]

Yea. There are restaurants. That is kinda fair. But not gyms. The gyms are all commercial. But I am more focused on maker related shops in my statmenet

[fringe sphinx]

I’m a small business guy. There are countless small tech companies, consultancies, etc. Look at Microsoft’s partner network, for instance: lots of small firms.

[fringe sphinx]

I have a friend who’s working in CNC/maker automation for a small company

[fringe sphinx]

Oh I misread. Thought you talking tech. You’re talking about retail/etc? I dunno then.

[onyx basin]

Oh ok, I'll see if my family would need something like that
Thanks!

[white relic]

Insurance agencies, financial services, plumbing, auto mechanics, physical therapists, farming co-ops... Lots of local businesses need occasional tech support and digital marketing

those are all examples that I have either hired or know people who do them

[vapid jay]

It's all networking.
Although I really do not understand why do small business keep pushing for inhouse solutions that suck
Whereas there's tons of similar/better software in different forms between freemium or fully open source without a price tag and permissive licensing
In my company they use an inhouse ticket management system that's a pile of bullcrap; they also manage to sell it to third party companies, which then they ended up using an excel spreadsheet to do the job by how bad it is

Is there a place where I can store my dslr long videos online without paying?

[gritty rivet]

Try an off-topic channel like #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

[vapid jay]

Fuck what

Oh sorry guys. Didn’t see the label. Hooya!!

[white relic]

I really do not understand why do small business keep pushing for inhouse solutions that suck
I mean, I get where you're coming from, but sometimes after a long day of trying to get copy and paste working between two different (both very popular) Microsoft products, I wouldn't mind that inhouse solution

all software sucks, sometimes is nice having the guy who wrote it on call to fix stuff when you need it done

[turbid bobcat]

just got approached for a prompt engineer role, doesn't seem to have a lot of coding in it tho

it asks for background in philosophy, which is interesting

[vapid jay]

Mah some do suck less than other, also you'd expect that something that's enstabilished is less sucky than something that was done by a random, likely in less time.
Anyhow the dude who did that doesn't even work there anymore. All of my coworkers can't code either. So it's something stuck there for whatever reason

[fringe sphinx]

I think it’d be an interesting experience, learning how companies are handling ai training. I know a lot of engineers who started in QA or helpdesk, and are better for it.

[turbid bobcat]

Im gonna send the CV because it's a job in the US, and it is kinda interesting, but don't know if it would be the ideal

[hearty island]

rejected by textron 😦

but an interview for the DTCC!

[delicate bane]

its very painful. a lot of hiring expensive domain peeps too unless you have in-house peeps. even still, its a matter of bandwidth.

but! still easier than classical ML processes in some ways depending on your use case.

[turbid bobcat]

Keep up the momentum, you got it

[turbid bobcat]

Wait until they find out that LLMs can prompt themselves >.>

[delicate bane]

you can do that. for data generation. you still need someone to ensure the output is what youre looking for/review the output. otherwise its more garbage feeding into a cycle.

[turbid bobcat]

But I can literally ask chat gpt to write the perfect prompt for a given task.

[hearty island]

just finished my geico prescreen questionnaire too. let's hope uhg says yes either this week or next week

[turbid bobcat]

Every interview is practice for the next interview. Just gotta learn what went wrong and what can be fixed and accept what wasn't in your control. You'll eventually get it.

[delicate bane]

alright, friend. you do that.

[turbid bobcat]

I've done it multiple times, seems to work quite well.

[delicate bane]

would you stake your salary and job on it? what about reliability requirements? cost? uptime? latency? hallucinations? these are all important questions the business will have for you. i dont want to come off as overly dismissive but i just want you to understand these are the tradeoffs youll have to consider for such systems in prod.

[turbid bobcat]

My workflow would be to have a long conversation with it about the task, get it to write the prompt, test the prompt, iterate it till perfect, then stage it, then iterate it, then prod it

[delicate bane]

thats a good start. ofc youll also want to have some sort of system to monitor output along with a few other considerations but thats getting off topic for this channel. lets stop here.

[turbid bobcat]

And I wouldn't dismiss this since open ai has been doing this in the wild with chat gpt + dallee

[turbid bobcat]

Sure I'd do observability. Idk is just normal dev stuff

[delicate bane]

theres another level to observability for ML systems, but again, not relevant for this channel. feel free to continue in one of the off topic channels

[turbid bobcat]

Idk, I've trained and deployed ML models, looks similar to normal dev stuff to me.

I'll end the discussion here then.

[karmic oar]

Today I received a list of questions to complete and I am incredibly disappointed that they took these questions straight from the Indeed article

they didn't even change the order

[gritty rivet]

Why are you disappointed? You would prefer they ask you something unexpected?

[white relic]

It might be disappointing to realize that the people with control over hiring you, don't know how to hire people any better than you do and are also kind of making it up as they go along

the truth is, everyone's ad libbing it

[surreal stream]

Guys I wanna know, which python projects will make me an advance python developer after I learn the basics python? (Asking projects except pygame)

[reef moth]

Also in the same boat ^

I am coming from 0 experience and I am looking learn python to and change my careers by getting into tech

[vapid jay]

Depends on where your interests are

Web development, ml, datascience, ai, I recommend doing what seems fun to you when starting out.

[vapid jay]

as a teenager (14 y/o), should I work on small income ideas or focus on my future career goal and study for it?
like a friend (also 14 y/o) of mine does dropshipping and earns a heck lot (around a corporate worker's joining salary in India). my goal is to join the army and i need to study a LOT for it. should i get a similar income source or should i dedicate all the time to studies?

[white relic]

You have to study that much to join the army in India? It isn't like that here

[white relic]

Well anyway, at 14 I would encourage you to keep your options open as much as possible. If you have to choose between secondary income and studying, studying tends to have better longterm return on investment

that is assuming that you don't need the secondary income (when you do, it isn't really a choice)

[vapid jay]

there's 0.15% chance to get selected to yea. more than IIT JEE if you've heard of it

[white relic]

India's education system and economy are strange to me and most Westerners, so take advice you receive online with a heap of salt

[vapid jay]

lol yup. also i don't need secondary income rn

thanks anyways

[vapid jay]

Half way rant:
I have an apprenticeship, yet I should "train" other people that are not under my same contract. Finish /s. Whereas in works that could be destructive, I refuse by playing dumb, boss gets visibly angry, yet says nothing.

[red smelt]

Hello. Can anyone recommend courses for learning data science? And how do I get started with that? Are there any prerequisites apart from learning python?

[hearty island]

yes, there’s a decent amount of math you need to know

stats, calc, lin alg

[red smelt]

Oh thanks. Nothing apart from that right?

[white relic]

There's a lot of things that you might need to know, but there's no list of everything you will need to know

If you want to get a sense of it, you might look at bachelor's degrees in data science or in math or computer science with a data science concentration and just look at the course names in the catalog

I'm not in data science technically, but I understand it's common for them to have master's degrees

[surreal stream]

recommend me over web development

[near ocean]

What does this mean

[vapid jay]

Web development is my personal interest, yeah.

[surreal stream]

i donno why but is python enough for developing website

i mean donno why some people recommned to learn django framework

[vapid jay]

Django is decent to get into web developing. But I dont think its industry standard

Most people use framworks from javascript and php (I think) Currently still teaching myself django to get into web development itself.
Cuz I already had a lot of knowledge about python already

[buoyant seal]

Django/Flask/FastAPI is very popular industry standard actually.
It is new PHP 😅

[vapid jay]

Is it really? Very interesting
ik Flask was

[buoyant seal]

Well, i work literally in a company that has 10-15 years of legacy code in PHP that adopted later Python django rest frameworks and built a dozen microservices after that
super highly auto scalable cloud infra for 100k dollars per month 😅
DRF REST APIs and Celery message queues on AWS SQS.

[raw nest]

what is flask used for? Since it's a micro framework i thought it wouldn't be much useful in multiapp projects?

Moreover django has Everything that flask has

[peak halo]

django forces you to do things a certain way, whereas flask is more flexible

[raw nest]

Yep, isn't modularity better?

when it comes to corporate applications

[peak halo]

this doesn't have anything to do with modularity

[raw nest]

Flask isn't modular as django, why would anyone use it except to create personal projects or single page applications?

[buoyant seal]

Flask has blueprints for its modules/modularity

[raw nest]

I get it, I haven't worked in a corporate yet. Like why would you use flask over django? is it heavy/light thing? (sorry if i sound stupid)

[regal axle]

Flask is far more lightweight. And is much less opinionated
But also this is getting beyond #career-advice

[sullen parcel]

Greeting everybody I have question, I have been working on backend development for many years and I'm about graduate but there is no job or even internship, I'm not sure How can I find a job as a junior dev, do you guys have any recommendation 😦
I feel like IT industry collapsed

[buoyant seal]

Flask is just more lightweight solution for custom building. Sometimes it is needed.

When u build overly custom application, it could be handy

Also flask is more stable and slow changingin comparison to the whole moving train of django ecosystem

[raw nest]

Oh okay, i get it. its just more flexible.

[raw nest]

Thanks Josh

[buoyant seal]

It kind of is. Its small advantage over FastAPI is also that it is WSGI synchronous first (it can work Async too though)

It makes more stable python libs running like celery from within of it (which a bit degrade in functionality in Async Fastapi)

Flask is very stable minimalistic choice

[pine sleet]

Also Django kinda locks you in

If you use Django, you get the whole 9 yards

[tight imp]

Hi

[mint oracle]

Go for masters! or try on linkedin! ask for referals

[near ocean]

Why would they do that?

[mint oracle]

👀

[maiden cedar]

Hey, 2nd year AIML student here. I'm looking to freelance in my free time to earn a bit. But I've noticed that I don't know really know anything outside PyTorch and Data stuff.

But custom model creation freelance gigs aren't that frequent. So, i thought i could take my shot at web development. What Frameworks should i learn? (I am planning on diversing my skillset than to be hyper focused on just ML and unity)

Any idea on what stuff i should learn? (Stuff that could be beneficial in the future and be used in this freelance thingy!)

[gritty rivet]

You can see what skills are in demand for freelance by checking sites like Upwork and Fiverr

Unless you're in a low wage country where $5/hour is great money you should probably not waste your time and focus on getting a normal student job / internship instead

[regal axle]

"go for masters" is not perfect advice. But one important thing to note is that the job market in general is trash right now. Not IT specific. Particularly for intro positions. So the advantage of "go for masters" is that you can delay when you are entering the market plus you have a higher degree. But it is not perfect advice because if you don't want a masters, don't get one. Instead, just be persistent and ask for help on your applications. It can take awhile to find a job. Months even. The recommendation is to apply, apply, and apply. And while you are doing that, try to reach out to people and network.

[molten lynx]

hey, someone there have a chromebook ?

[peak halo]

what is your actual question?

[molten lynx]

it's about the chromebook perks

[peak halo]

Try asking your actual question right away. But if your question is "are chromebooks good for programming?", the answer is no in most cases.

[molten lynx]

sure, sorry

[summer roost]

I disagree, but also, that seems off topic, no?

[peak halo]

Probably

[peak halo]

This is the career discussion channel. Try asking in #python-discussion

[loud igloo]

Quart > Flask

[karmic oar]

I see it as disrespectful. Since they didn't take the time to do it, maybe I shouldn't either, and give a answer from the chat gpt. Clearly, I know it's me who needs them, not them who needs me, but still, the distaste remains. :x

[buoyant seal]

Quart = The worst monstrocity born from Flask adopting async only later. (And that was the only goal it tried to fix)
with only half of its libraries working

Having no point today since Flask already adopted async a year ago starting from 2.0 version

[hearty island]

so it's been 9 days since my uhg interview and my l3harris interview

should i reach out to either and ask for an update?

or should i sit tight till 2 weeks

[leaden jasper]

how many active business days?

The holidays throw a wrench into timelines, a lot people had off/took off last Thursday and Friday

[hearty island]

6 days, excluding saturday, sunday, and thanksgiving. so i guess i should sit tight

[leaden jasper]

I would sit tight for another day or two, then follow up

[hearty island]

i might wait till the business days add up to 14 days and then follow up, i don't want to seem too impatient

[true harness]

i would expect most companies to have thursday and friday off, or at least a bunch of people taking PTO

[hearty island]

right, so i'll just wait then. thanks for the advice guys

[near ocean]

14 business days is 3 weeks thats crazy long

[gritty rivet]

There's no hard rules, it's situational... Is 2 weeks your own arbitrary timeframe or is it something they said?

Did you already thank them for the interview back when it happened? (You should have, but better late then never and thanking them gives you a better excuse to reach out)

[hearty island]

i already thanked both interviewers

[hearty island]

i know 🫠

[true harness]

why not 10 business days . that's 2 normal weeks

[near ocean]

I would follow up today or tomorrow, preferably today

[hearty island]

i was going to wait till next wednesday

[vapid jay]

If they want you theyll contact you

[leaden jasper]

I think contacting on the Monday or this Friday is fine

[hearty island]

ok

[white relic]

3 weeks is a normal callback window to me

especially with a holiday in it
taking December into account I wouldn't be extremely surprised not to hear back before January

[jagged fable]

I have been struggling to even land an interview for a junior developer or analyst position. Anyone trying to break into the industry ever encountered this?

[white relic]

I would expect earlier, to be clear, but I wouldn't be shocked

[hearty island]

gotcha, yeah i mean as gage said if they want me they’d contact me

[gritty rivet]

This is difficult in normal times and the market is especially bad right now... Get as much feedback on your resume as you can (you can share anonymized screenshots right here) and network hard to find the hidden jobs that aren't getting thousands of applicants

[regal axle]

For me, it’s the communication of this that is important. Ask about the status and if they know that it will take them till January to have a solid answer, they should communicate that. Or at least that is the ideal

[brazen island]

Do you guys answer recruiter messages on LinkedIn?

[white relic]

no

(but I'm not really looking right now)

[oak tide]

You definitely aren't alone. I've applied to over 5,000 positions and have received no offers. But like @gritty rivet said, post a screenshot of your resume here, and people here will give you advice on how you can improve it

[brazen island]

I never do but I always feel slightly guilty for not doing so.

[oak tide]

Lately, I've taken a break from LinkedIn. It got stressful seeing all these people in my feed getting new and cool jobs while I'm still unemployed 😂

But yeah I would normally respond to recruiters on LinkedIn

[vapid jay]

I am a cyber security student. Do you think majoring in cybersecurity specifically is narrowing my options of pursuing other careers in tech outside of cybersecurity such as Web Developer, Programming, etc? I want to learn how to code but I do not think a degree in cyber security will have the coding classes that teach those skills. I could be wrong because I am an underclassman.

[pine sleet]

If you want to go into software development, a CS degree would probably be the way to go. Otherwise, if you want to do cybersecurity related-stuff, your current degree plan should be fine

Though AFAICT a CS degree is more generic and may afford you a greater variety of options

[fringe sphinx]

It’s also confusing because some schools offer a cybersecurity concentration under their CS degree, whereas other schools list it as a separate degree

[gritty rivet]

Do you feel guilty for ignoring other spammers too?

Obviously if you're actively looking and/or they have a really interesting position you can't just apply to directly, then it makes sense to reply, and I have done so. But overwhelmingly they're pushing bad jobs I have no interest in

[brazen island]

Yeah, that's kind of it. I have a fairly decent job and I'm not looking for any either so I don't really answer

[wide patrol]

As a high schooler wanting to work with data after college, what would be the best undergraduate degree

Some say CS while others say Math. I've also heard Stats too.. I'm just really lost tbh

[white relic]

Of those options, pick CS if you're only planning to spend 4 years in college

a BS in math is something you only get on your way to a PhD

[peak halo]

More options isn't better if those additional options aren't the ones that you want. If you know you want to do cyber security, stay in the cyber security program.

There are probably fewer jobs in cyber security than in web development, but also fewer people who are qualified to do them. And those jobs will probably pay better.

And even for CS students, it's ultimately up to you to get good at programming. And if programming is interesting to you, you won't even resent the time that you spend on it.

[white relic]

(or because you failed a core class and couldn't graduate with your intended major)

[gritty rivet]

Don't know what country you're in but here in the US at least, there's plenty of time to decide if you're really not sure. I would take relevant classes as early as you can and decide based on whatever interests you more.

[wide patrol]

ok

[wide patrol]

yes I'm in the US and alright 👍 I'm currently taking a computer science course at my school and I don't really like it (but then again, computer science high school classes are nothing like college ones)

[white relic]

What don't you like about it?
I didn't like AP CS as much as I enjoyed some of my college courses but it was mostly about the teacher

[wide patrol]

idk, mostly the teacher tbh. It also doesn't help that almost everyone in that class had prior coding experience so I often lose motivation

[stone shoal]

Tbh.. I see CS as a waste of time in college

I rather have a personal class than to waste four years.. it's a delay

[white relic]

That's a hot take. Lots of your potential employers will disagree

[stone shoal]

So I other to secure a Job as a developer in the US, you need a CS degree?

[fringe sphinx]

I think it certainly is a waste of time for people who aren’t receptive and take advantage of the opportunities (speaking as someone who started college like this). (I’m being snarky here: even for these people, a degree is valuable)

[stone shoal]

Take me for example.. I am currently studying geography in college rn, senior year... But I've been taking Data Science..

[white relic]

People have gotten software jobs without one, but it helps a lot.

[fringe sphinx]

Your tactic here is very off putting. That’s quite a strawman response: trentj just said employees disagree that CS is a waste of time, and your response is: (more or less): so a degree is required (making a strawman of the response).

[white relic]

Having a degree in some other field that gives you an "in" to data analysis or custom tool development or whatever is a viable approach as well. I'd be interested to hear what your career plan is post graduation. I know nothing about jobs in geography

[vapid jay]

Thanks, do you think a masters in cyber security is better than a masters in computer science. Some say it overlaps but I do not know how true that is?

[stone shoal]

I'm not saying I need a job which is geography related.. I tryna say I doing some Data Science courses...

[white relic]

So, why major in geography then?

[stone shoal]

I had too because the school I'm presently in doesn't have the course I wanted, I'm an African

No Data Science courses in schools (universities) in my country

So I decided to go for a degree online

[vapid jay]

I have a bachelor's in Software Engineering and decided to get a master's in Cybersecurity.

[red gorge]

Hi, guys, I'm looking for a job opportunity!
If someone has an idea, please let me know.
Thanks!

[vapid jay]

It'll be easier for AI to replace coding jobs than security jobs

[true harness]

why?

[true harness]

try linkedin

[vapid jay]

was that towards me?

I think Cybersecurity requires more unique ideas and coding is more of doing something similar over and over.

[dark lantern]

I'm going for software engineering. Do you know where to look at a list of jobs for people with that degree? Like where the degree would fit best. I googled it but I wanna know what your opinion is as a person with the degree.

[vapid jay]

Ill be honest in saying I also struggle in this market. Its not easy. What im doing is taking strides to learn more technologies on the data engineering side. Things like Apache products, Cloud basics, and Python AI libraries

[true harness]

typical titles would be things like "Software Developer", "Software Engineer". there's also stuff like devops that might be worth looking into

[vapid jay]

I've just been typing "Data" and looking at all the posts in the past 24 hours lol.

[true harness]

24 hours seems a bit extreme. i've been doing 2 weeks or so

[vapid jay]

Its really not, I have premium on linkedin and can see how fast people are applying. If you don't apply within the first day.. good luck

over 100 people a day on most of them

[obsidian matrix]

Hey guys, since i had no luck finding jobs in here for 6 months, i decided to give it a shot on Upwork, i'm planing on working there using python. Any of you could give me some light on what to study? I'm planing on staying 2 months studying / training before trying to get any jobs there

[true harness]

i can understand not applying to older positions, but not because there are a lot of applicants already, rather because the position might be filled already and they just forgot to close the application. the better candidates will end up on top on average, so i don't think the number of applicants matters that much

[vapid jay]

maybe. I apply daily so it should be the same

[true harness]

if you're applying every day and getting all the new ones, i guess it doesn't matter. i assume that's quite a time commitment though. i only do like 20 or so every week

[vapid jay]

I aim for 2 hours a day. It's not too bad

play netflix or something in the background

[true harness]

wow, that's quite impressive

[vapid jay]

Do you think your major in cyber security was vastly different from Software engineering or is their an overlap?

[vapid jay]

Also, do you currently have a cyber security role? Was the pay difference reflective upon completing your masters if so?

[vapid jay]

I'm still enrolled in the master's program. It's very different. A true computer science degree may be closer to cybersecurity. For software engineering degrees it's hyper-specific on coding. You have more programming classes than non-programming classes in software engineering programs.

[vapid jay]

I have not held a cyber security job yet. Mostly data based software engineering.

[vapid jay]

Cool, what operating systems do you all mainly use for your classes? Is it Kali Linux? I start my cyber classes on January 25th.

[vapid jay]

Was it easy for you to find a job when you graduated with your bachelors and did you have to show projects on your resume?

[vapid jay]

Have not had to use Kali Linux yet. I do have a dedicated Pentesting class that im excited for. I imagine we will use Kali Linux for that.

[vapid jay]

No this job market is difficult. Its what motivated me to pursue a masters. I did have about 2 years work experience upon graduation though.

[vapid jay]

Do you think the job market will get better? If so, when? They say companies are in need of cybersecurity & tech professionals but are they just not hiring?

I did show projects, forgot to answer that part

[vapid jay]

Looks like its getting better

lol I graduated at the peak of the layoffs. Worst possible time to graduate.

[gritty rivet]

The long term projections are basically good for tech jobs as a whole, but nobody can say if a given quarter in the future will be better or worse then what we are seeing right now, which is better then a year ago but still pretty bad

[vapid jay]

Do you think getting a masters will make life 10xs easier when applying for cyber security jobs?

[pine sleet]

I don't believe in general Master's degrees are as helpful for the job hunt in the industry as a Bachelor's is

[fringe sphinx]

Def not 10x, for sure

[vapid jay]

I noticed a significant increase in recruiter calls when I started putting masters on my resume

[pine sleet]

Yeah, it will help, though. It's also a good preview into the world of academia if that's something you're interested in, you can go for a PhD from there

[vapid jay]

Did the recruiters ask you to interview for positions once they saw Masters on your resume?

[gritty rivet]

No, your earning potential will be higher but finding your first job could still be a struggle, depending greatly on internship experience

[gritty rivet]

Makes sense, but I would guess the impact wasn't quite 10x 😉

[fringe sphinx]

I’m a fan of entering workforce and working on masters part time, unless you have an accelerated masters program.

[vapid jay]

I believe so. The way I tested it is after my bachelor's I applied for about 2 months. Only had a handful of interviews. Recently in the past month I put the master's degree on and get about 3 calls weekly from recruiters. I get about 2-3X as many calls with the masters on the resume.

[gritty rivet]

That probably made a lot of sense when the market was booming, right now I can see why someone might opt to stay in school full time

[fringe sphinx]

Very confused about the timing of these statements. How long did it take you to complete your masters? Aren’t you comparing hiring from 2 years apart?

[vapid jay]

While in the process of obtaining my cyber security degree, what do you suggest I do to increase my chances of a high-paying cyber role and what would those steps look like? I would rather be proactive than reactive.

[vapid jay]

haha thats exactly what im doing!

[vapid jay]

Im still in the masters program part time

[fringe sphinx]

Fair, I suppose that’s predicated on being able to enter the workforce

[fringe sphinx]

I’m a data engineer, not cybersecurity, so I’ll let someone in that field answer!

[vapid jay]

Certificates are HUGE in cybersecurity. If you look at job listings youll see several Comptia certs that most jobs require.

[vapid jay]

Are you getting recruiters reaching out on LinkedIn? How does that work? You updated your resume and your profile started gaining more attention or did you update your bio?

[fringe sphinx]

But I will say: be a balanced learner. Read, watch conference videos in your industry, practice, participate in discussions (ie; #cybersecurity ), etc.

[vapid jay]

I use linkedin and indeed. I assume they get my contact info through my resume

[vapid jay]

What is your LinkedIn? I need to update my LinkedIn. I am a novice so I do not have much to put on a resume.

[vapid jay]

How hard was it for you to land your first role and what did you do to land it in a nutshell?

[fringe sphinx]

It was a -long- time ago. Decades.

[vapid jay]

@vapid jay I'd look into Security+, Network+, CySA+, Casp+, and CISM. Pentest+ and (ISC)2 CC are also good certifications for cybersecurity positions. To my understanding, The certificate section of cybersecurity roles is as important as the projects section is for software engineering based roles.

[fringe sphinx]

Not even possibly relevant in todays market

[vapid jay]

I don't share my linkedin. I don't put very much on it. I mainly just use it as a platform to post certificates / diplomas, and apply for jobs.

[vapid jay]

whats that?

[fringe sphinx]

#career-advice message

[vapid jay]

It's cool you acknowledge that. I've seen a few people in your position who say it's easy then compare it to the market they were in haha

[vapid jay]

Did you get any calls from recruiters this week? It's strange they are reaching out but aren't offering you any opportunities. What are their excuses when you are following a great roadmap to be highly qualified for cyber roles?

[vapid jay]

I'm getting opportunities 🙂

I did talk to a few recruiters this week too

[vapid jay]

Oh wow, it would be great if they maybe gave you a paid internship or a role. I am so eager to learn. I am just dizzy about where to start. My classes start in January at my local community college.

[fringe sphinx]

Have you looked at the curriculum map (course list) for the program? You can probably find syllabi for the classes to get a sense of what you’ll be covering

Also: look at the curriculum/course list for other programs at other universities: it’s good to have an idea of what ‘typical’ programs cover

[vapid jay]

The certificates I mentioned also count as college credit in a lot of cases. Check with your school first but you may be able to both save time, save money, and build your resume if you take the certification exams.

[hearty island]

wrong spot, try #python-discussion

[vapid jay]

Do cybersecurity majors learn code or do you learn how to ethically hack and use software?

[vapid jay]

low level coding normally

then the other stuff

[vapid jay]

So what is the bulk of the work. I know there has been some hard technical skills being taught, correct?

[mint oracle]

Hii Billy Can u resend me git practice website link?

[onyx grail]

crazy how you can struggle so much with even a master's getting to work as a non-citizen

[vapid jay]

🤠 Also what would you call/refer to companies like [apple, Goolge, Facebook, microsoft……]?

🤔 IT companies? internet? Tech?

[buoyant seal]

specifically this list we call FAANG or MANGA 😅 (and we say like FAANG or like MANGA, we mean ultra big IT companies with similar... hiring policies and tendencies)

[vapid jay]

[near ocean]

You can call it big tech and everyone would understand

[hearty island]

goddamnit, rejected from geico

[ivory sluice]

@void spindle don't post copypastas

oh @lean tulip ^

[ivory sluice]

sorry wrong user

[lean tulip]

oh man it was just a meme

just to kinda help people relax with the placement pressure but alright

[fringe sphinx]

I don't have a good git practice link.. but have you seen this: https://missing.csail.mit.edu/2020/version-control/

[onyx grail]

how bad of an idea is it to have a debt of over 150k just for a minor in computer science?

also considering that only about a 20-30% chance of getting the working visa approved?

[turbid bobcat]

That's pretty bad in my book

Pretty sure is possible to straight up bootstrap a company for that amount of money.

[true harness]

150 is a lot, but not totally unheard of. but why for a minor?

[onyx grail]

thats the average to attend a us college as an international

40k yearly lol

cant believe i am having to consider going to unites states at all but now i enter the "real world" i guess

[fringe sphinx]

What's your major?

[true harness]

I've seen it suggested that it's generally not worth it to pursue undergrad as an international student, especially if you need to take on loans

[fringe sphinx]

I haven't seen that said, but not really something I've asked about... I have hired a number of internationals (F1 / OPT visas), which is why I asked about the major... since STEM majors get an extra 2 years of OPT

[true harness]

I heard it's usually more worth it for grad school

[onyx grail]

didn't decide yet but most probably data science and all

[onyx grail]

actually that's something i am considering too

i've also seen that conditions for h-1b visa and any work visa is not good so i'm not sure if i can depend on my wage to pay off the debt

[fringe sphinx]

Make sure, to maximize OPT, to make sure it's considered a STEM major.

With my hires, I've had multiple H1B submissions. In one case, we got it first year. In another case, it took me 4 tries.

[onyx grail]

thanks, would you recommend me to do undergrad in my home country and then go to the states for major graduation?

[gritty rivet]

Yes. Grad school with a teaching or research assistantship is way more affordable. Tuition is often waived completely because you're cheap labor

Another thing undergrad students will do is take half their credits at home and then transfer for a year or two to get a US degree. Still requires money but not as much

[midnight badge]

what is easy to learn and earn money in Python?

:0

[hidden bloom]

i got a paid offer to work on an IS system like integrations and shit is that a good field to get into? like kubernetes and stuff. this is a 1 year internship (placement year) between 2nd and final year of university. I have a teams meeting to discuss the role further but idk anything about this line of work so im confuesd as to what questions to ask...? they have not told me much besides like integration and stuff 'is system' been super vague. what questions do i ask them?

[midnight badge]

:0

wow

who can recomend me a road map for learn backend with python?

[true harness]

culture, job specifics, where previous interns are

[fringe sphinx]

Sounds like a devops internship. This is a good area by itself, and even if you don't want to go into devops, still good experience.

Even if it's purely IT (systems and no scripting or programming), still useful.

[hidden bloom]

thx for the help btwww / couldnt have landed it without u! and trent

[coral vine]

Thoughts on AWS certifications? Starting a SWE internship in a few months, and I want to prepare. So far, I have fiddled with AWS for a few months, building a full stack web app. Now, I want to take a step back to learn proper foundations. I see they offer plenty of certificates such as "AWS Certified Solutions Architect – Associate".

Is it worth obtaining these certificates? Does it hold any weight to companies? It's $150 to take the exam. I figure if I'm taking the time to learn AWS properly to complete my web app, I might as well take some time to obtain those certificates along the way?

[midnight badge]

should i use Pycharm or Visual study code?

if i gonna be backend developer

[near ocean]

Thats not a careers related question

[brazen island]

#editors-ides

[midnight badge]

How do I find jobs whether I become in backend developer?

[craggy prairie]

I know Linkedin is pretty popular.

[vapid jay]

Hi, everyone, I am currently seeking a US-based full-stack developer to work with me. Can anyone help?

[fringe sphinx]

Please see the channel description, no recruitment here (anywhere in this discord)

[wise galleon]

Hey guys im from germany and was wondering where or what are the best websites to look for jobs?

[gritty rivet]

A job

[gritty rivet]

I dunno about Germany but in most places these days it's LinkedIn and Indeed

[gritty rivet]

I have my AWS CCP which carries less weight then the others.

If you look at job listings you can see the sorts of jobs are looking for which AWS certs

[gritty rivet]

There are decent Python and Backend roadmaps on https://roadmap.sh

[oak tide]

I like to use Indeed, Monster, and Dice

[vapid jay]

hello all

[hasty isle]

#advent-of-code

[delicate bane]

companies usually pay for such certs. im studying for the aws developer associate one rn and im getting that one paid for.

idk if its worth forking over your own money — have you checked with your school? our program paid for select certs for students too.

[coral vine]

Oh dang. I'm doing the B.S. Computer Science at WGU. They don't offer the AWS certs for that track, however, they do for the other tracks. https://www.wgu.edu/online-it-degrees/it-certifications/amazon-aws.html

I know the company pays for school, so I guess I will wait until I get the return offer hopefully. On an unrelated note, during the company meeting, they mentioned that they typically select 90% of interns for return offer. How is it that high? Is that for real?

[delicate bane]

dang how come it feels like its for every degree program except yours?

also its probably that high because many interns dont accept that return offer

but thats my hot take

[coral vine]

Interesting. That sounds accurate. During the meeting, I noticed that a lot of the employees who spoke were hired straight out of college and at least 8 of them stayed for over a decade at that company. Why wouldn't many interns accept the offer?

They mentioned they stayed for two reasons: learning opportunities and good people

[true harness]

they got the faang internship for the resume and bounced 😭

[coral vine]

I'm trying to understand why the computer science track doesn't get any AWS certs. We only get Linux Essentials cert. Maybe Computer Science is too much of an ancient forgotten art. It's not hip and cool like the new modern Cloud Computing track. That one gets 4 AWS certs!

[vapid jay]

I found my AWS certification useful

May have been more useful to get Comptia Security+ first. Thats a requirement for a lot of government jobs.

[delicate bane]

its actually better on the interns side if they have different internships at different places. more marketable plus you find out what you like, and perhaps more importantly, what you dont like

keep in mind, for those joining the meeting, theyre more likely to reach out to those who were former interns, those who actively participate at the company, etc.

[delicate bane]

peace ✌️

time to work on wall street for the big bucks 💸

OA? nah you got that fang filter

[delicate bane]

theres probably an argument somewhere about theoretical vs. applied... but my impression of WGU is that its more on the applied side. maybe you can talk to an advisor about getting you a voucher? you could make a case for it with your internship(s)

[lusty abyss]

i wanna be a good at python

[stoic atlas]

I wasn't aware certs were universally relevant; at least my uni didn't have any certs and afaik none of my friends working as devs have certs

I'm under the impression certs are more relevant in devops/sysadmin/IT roles

[coral vine]

Great idea! What should I tell my university mentor? Why would they care about helping me with my internship? They seem to want to push students in and out of the university program as quickly as possible from my experience. Very pushy about me progressing through courses. They don’t seem to want to help or have me explore much of the university resources aside from grinding out courses.

[delicate bane]

hmm i believe its worth a shot. the worse thing they could say is no.

id approach it from the angle of you at least having an opportunity (your internship) to apply the knowledge youd gain from the cert. otherwise why should they give you the spare voucher they may have vs. another student

[delicate bane]

youre right. they are more relevant for those types of roles.

the majority of traditional software devs wont have maybe any kind of certs. that said i do have some dev friends that have a couple aws certs but they are def in the minority.

[coral vine]

Add at the end:

“For Christmas? Pwetty Pweeease :3”

And maybe she will give it! 😄

[stoic atlas]

amazon likes seeing aws certs and actively encourages their employees to get them so if you want to work there or are working there I can see aws certs being useful; but otherwise I've never heard of certs mattering for devs in any other context

[delicate bane]

if youre in the consulting world, its pretty much expected. especially if youre in the microsoft partner program, gcp partner program, etc.

[stoic atlas]

I see, idk much about the consulting world

[vapid jay]

This is true in most cases. Governemnt roles do ask for comptia certs often though.

The only strictly programming cert that I know of thats relevant is the OCP for Java

[woeful rune]

Is it possible to get remote job, even though I come from Indonesia and am self-taught?

[south steeple]

ofc

[woeful rune]

how can i get it?

[south steeple]

look in freelancing websites or some websites where hosts provide remote job offers

[spice moss]

Are there many Django job opportunities out there? I’ve become really comfortable in general python and am learning django at the moment. Finishing up my associates degree in CS next semester. Is django worth learning? Or should I dedicate time to learning other technologies in the pursuit of being job ready

[plain nymph]

There's quite a fair amount of Django jobs on the market. It's still one of the most popular frameworks after all. Usually, if it's Django, then it's going to be a well-established codebase (read "legacy"). I'd suggest getting familiar with both Django and FastAPI

but learning just Django or FastAPI isn't a difficult thing to do. If you're looking for backend position, there's a bunch of other tech you should understand (which is useful regardless of the framework). E.g. Celery, Redis, etc.

[spice moss]

Thanks! That gives some direction and extra things to focus on learning

[lean tulip]

pycharm

[severe inlet]

I found this article, I am a novice Python developer, where can I apply for these or similar paid opportinities, where I am trained and mentored? https://www.highereddive.com/news/employers-pay-more-ai-skills/700920/?utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter-20233011

[fringe sphinx]

This seems like a fairly low quality article that’s just repeating stuff from other articles. The path to the top AI/ML jobs involve education (masters degree, most likely), focused learning, and probably some practical experience (projects). Look on LinkedIn for AI/ML jobs and look at the qualifications

[severe inlet]

What about the path to average, entry level AI/ML jobs?

Although formal education can be very valuable, self-education and a project based approach seems reasonable, if not often more effective than formal education. 'Work on real projects', 'work professionally with a team', when you are starting out is advice I heard, and I think it is good advice. I personally don't yet know how to find these places. I am perfectly comfortable becoming an expert as a self learner, but it would be nice to make income, from this learning, and contribute to a meaningful project in the meantime.

[harsh hatch]

any numpy course or something?

[fringe sphinx]

Best advice is to go look at job descriptions. It doesn’t matter what -you- think is reasonable: it matters what the employers are selecting for. This is a unique job market, due to the layoffs earlier this year, which has made entry positions more competitive than they’ve been in years past.

[fringe sphinx]

I’m not trying to be negative, just saying: landing an AI/ML job is ultra competitive. But, if you lower your expectations a bit and aim for an entry SWE job and maybe run for a data-related SWE job, you might have an easier path to an entry position.

[severe inlet]

Thank you @fringe sphinx

[mint oracle]

I think js php and java has more job in backend other than django

Mostly companies wants all of three framewarks flask ,django and fastapi

[plain nymph]

yeah, sure, but the original question was in the context of python jobs. considering how much web stuff runs on php, it's def easier to find a php job, but that's beyond the point here

[plain nymph]

this is simply not the case for European companies at least. Usually it's either django or fastapi. If a company wants both, it means they're migrating

but to ask all three?.. I don't know. Sounds like a startup that doesn't know what tech they want 🙂

[mint oracle]

Yeah Honestly i like django and fastapi both!

[plain nymph]

I don't have anything against neither of them 🙂 I do prefer FastAPI though. I was just saying, that's, at least from my exp, it's pretty rare to see a backend using all three equallly

[mint oracle]

U r a backend developer?

[plain nymph]

aye

[mint oracle]

Great!

[vapid jay]

Entry level and AI/ML jobs is an oxymoron.

You dont even touch most of the technologies they use till the masters level in college.

[brazen island]

Several of us landed jobs in AI/ML straight out uni

For me it helped what I wanted to do for years ahead of time, got experience in them in uni and did a master's.

[hearty island]

GUYS

i am shoooook

the voicemail said "we have a chance for you"

[vapid jay]

Is anyone here who is starting to learn python for data analytics ?

[fringe sphinx]

This job market is a bit weird, I think a lot of entry candidates really don’t get to pick their type of job. You can shape your outcome slightly through projects and preparation, but you don’t have your pick of jobs right now. I could be wrong, and heading into 2024, I hope things return a bit to normal.

But to the OP’s question, the question was about self-educated/non-degree engineers landing entry AI/ML jobs, which seemed quite difficult to me

[blissful sinew]

Qui peut m’aider pour le 1er exercice svp ?

[fringe sphinx]

This was already answered in #python-discussion

[blissful sinew]

Excuse me

[amber scarab]

hello

[plain birch]

hello i dont know anything coding but i wanna learn but i dont have much money is there any good free courses except from yt

[fringe sphinx]

Could you ask in #python-discussion ? Lots of people there are learning Python and can recommend something

[plain birch]

oh ok

[hearty island]

i got progressed to a second round for an interview!!

[vapid jay]

hi

[vapid jay]

I agree entirely. I didn't even negotiate pay with my first role. Just take what you can get and wait till a better market to be picky.

[vapid jay]

So you had a masters and work experience relevant to AI/ML before getting the role? You're probably closer to mid level than entry level.

[brazen island]

Well, my work experience was student jobs and unpaid internships. At least here that does not count as "work experience". Entry level, to me, means "first job out of university". I'm trying to say that there is space for people straight out of uni 😄

[vapid jay]

The non-degree engineer thing sounds a bit like a meme.

[vapid jay]

What country?

[brazen island]

Belgium

[vapid jay]

I believe there is a big gap across labor markets across various countries. I'm from the US so I refer to the United States labor market.

India for instance actually has a quota of "freshers" that they have to hire so its easier to get into technology there.

[dawn wadi]

i love python! 🤓

[clever mural]

Ay what's up

[turbid bobcat]

You're giving me hope, everyone is so gloomy about the market rn 😭

[vocal lodge]

hi bro

the only thing I know in python is print("helo word")

[hollow nacelle]

I’m a senior in high school. I’ve taken high school classes on Python and Java and made small projects in Python and C++. I’ve been going through the college application process and I’ve becoming less and less sure in the uni route. I’m already slated for a virtual IT position for a museum. What is some advice if I don’t go with the uni route. I’m interested in CS and data science btw

[vapid jay]

just work a job uni is a scam

[near ocean]

Bad advice

[white relic]

There is an army of "influencers" who are incentivized to tell you you don't need a degree, if you just have enough hustle you can rise to the top and beat out all the scrubs who spent forever in classes. Or things along those lines. A bachelor's degree in computer science or a closely related field is still the best way to get into professional software development. If you're interested in data science, a bachelor's should be the minimum and you should seriously be considering a master's. The data as well as anecdotal experience of people in this very server bears this out. People with degrees have an easier time finding jobs and get paid better in the jobs they do find. It is true you don't need a degree for most things, but that's like saying you don't need to wear a condom to avoid pregnancy. It might not be a sure thing either way but it's a sensible precaution that smart people take.

[mortal wedge]

I can second this. I still get edged out by phd candidates and have to hustle to compete. I’d have no chance without a degree. (I have a bachelors)

[vapid jay]

a degree is good if you cant trust yourself to get a hireable portfolio on your own

[brazen island]

I respect that you had the energy to answer 😄

I want to briefly approach this from a different angle: a degree isn't something you (just) do for the piece of paper. It's a transformative experience, you make friends for life, you potentially meet a partner and so on. On top of that, if you pick the right degree it should typically be stuff you enjoy and not things you're doing because you have to.

[white relic]

"You need a degree if you want to work for someone else, but I want to be the boss" (-statements dreamed up by the utterly deranged)
People who have made their own startup are a dime a dozen. People who have made successful businesses enough to hire other people and have money left over are incredibly rare. Those people have a combination of technical skills, entrepreneurial skills, amazing connections and great luck. And most of them also have relevant degrees, if not in technical fields, in business, which is just as essential. Starting out as a freelance dev is ridiculously hard. A portfolio is just the beginning. You need to build a book of business, you need repeat business, you need marketing, you need exactly the kind of connections that people who have gone to university will have. University is not a sucker's bet. It is the best way to maximize your opportunity and future compensation.

[peak halo]

If you're interested in data science, but you don't get a degree, you will almost certainly never get a job that involves data science.

What will the virtual IT position with the museum involve? Because at least in the US, "IT" usually does not include software development.

[white relic]

None of what I've said above should be construed to mean that it's hopeless to try to break into the field if you can't get a degree. Many people have and still do. But if you have the opportunity to go to university and get a degree, for CS or just about anything in STEM at least, that will be your best option.

[near ocean]

If youre here only to share bad takes on important decisions you should reconsider participating

[limpid grotto]

where can i get help?

[peak halo]

please read #❓｜how-to-get-help

[peak halo]

while bad advice can be very damaging, we don't want this to become an echo chamber, either.

@vapid jay I think you'll find that a lot of companies won't even look at someone's portfolio if they don't have either of a degree or n years of professional experience

[fringe sphinx]

I am a hiring manager in the US, and have been for years. Get a degree, any way you can. I won’t look at a resume without one (I have made exceptions but they’re exceptions).

[spice moss]

Specifically only bachelors degree+ or have you considered associates degrees in CS?

[peak halo]

you say "any way you can", but is the subtext that the degree needs to be related to programming?

[fringe sphinx]

Tbh, I can’t recall the last time I saw an associates. I guess I’d suggest that someone with an associates get an entry job in tech (a dev job might be hard to land, but even OPs, IT, support are all helpful) and finish part time.

[hollow nacelle]

I’m just trying to process everything. For 10 years I’ve always hated school tbh. I never felt challenged and felt like I could only achieve what was expected of me. Until I took a specific class I started to like school and tried to save my application but I did a lot of damage. Now I’m sitting at a 2.9 gpa and 1210 SAT score. And I missed early action deadlines because I wasn’t sure in my college essay. Now I don’t know if I’d get accepted to any of the universities I want and I don’t want to go to community college because I’m afraid it’ll feel like school before my junior year. Idk if any of that made sense

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, yah, I guess I should’ve specified. I look at CS degrees primarily, but have hired adjacent degrees too (EE’s in particular).

[peak halo]

from what I can tell, associates degrees are just a means of studying towards a bachelors at an institution that doesnt offer a bachelors

[peak halo]

the lectures at community colleges can feel a lot like high school lectures, but the experience is pretty different otherwise. you spend way less time "in class" (ie, the lectures), which means more freedom in how you study and complete assignments. and if you're doing an associates in CS, the courses might be more interesting to you.

[vapid jay]

I have associates in General education, associates in CS, Bachelors in Software Engineering, and currently getting a masters in cybersecurity. I like that I can put both Computer Science and Software Engineering keywords on my resume. Helps with ATS.

[hollow nacelle]

Now I’m trying to see if I can create a backup plan besides community college if I don’t get accepted for any of the universities I’m applying for

[fringe sphinx]

First, it’s not too late to apply. Finish your damn essay, and start blasting those apps out on commonapp. (My son is a senior too, and getting that essay done and getting EA’s out was… well, dramatic)

[fringe sphinx]

Second: there’s nothing wrong with starting with community college. It’s far cheaper and has a higher success rate for many people. College isn’t high school, although it will be hard work and require some real grit.

[vapid jay]

True, associates also transfer well to other schools for college credit. More so than if you just transfered the classes themself.

[hollow nacelle]

How much did he get it reviewed? I did get it done but I’m having trouble scheduling an appointment with my English teacher to get it reviewed and Idk how long I need to have it in a state that I’m proud of.

[hollow nacelle]

I have a brother in community college and he isn’t the sharpest and he doesn’t even seem challenged. I’ve seen his work and it looks easier than my AP/IB work. I’m still applying for community college but I feel like I’d be bored out of my mind again

[fringe sphinx]

He had some help, but he was editing up till the last minute: he said what helped him was just explaining the narrative out loud. Find someone, or even a rubber duckie, and just talk through it.

[fringe sphinx]

Some classes are fairly dull, but: you have to fix your attitude towards two subjects- programming and math. Find a way to get excited about math because Calc 1 and 2 will kick your ass if you’re not ready. I can point you at some resources. And start programming now.

[spice moss]

Thanks, would you say it’s totally hopeless to land a dev job with an associates and a strong portfolio and self taught skills? Right now an IT job while continuing education is my backup plan while a dev job while continuing education is my goal. One semester left for the associates degree now

[sudden geyser]

You can apply to very easy schools as well if you're worried about not getting into one at all. I go to a university that isn't considered prestigous at all just because I'm not that into academics, but still wanted to go for CS. I think just going to a university in general matters more than the prestige of a specific one.

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, if you’re working in IT already, I bet you’ll be able to land something. Might take a bit of looking, but if you have experience plus an associates, just keep aiming for something closer to your target. IT, support, QA and OPs experience are all valuable.

[hollow nacelle]

I got a 5 on Calc AB so I won’t take Calc 1. I’m at the top of my class in Calc BC and getting bored af rn. Is multi var, linear algebra and differential equations hard?

[spice moss]

Oops sorry maybe weird phrasing. Not currently working in IT, meant working in IT is my backup plan after finishing associates

[hollow nacelle]

If I do go into uni I’m planing to double major in math so hopefully real analysis kicks my ass

[fringe sphinx]

Oh. Then you’re fine. Freshman classes are more of the same, but it’s twice as fast. AB maps to a one semester class, but took you one year, same with BC.

Nothing gets ‘harder’, it just builds on what you’ve learned

[cobalt moat]

do colleges give any credit for working internships

[hearty island]

some do, depends on yours

[digital fjord]

Honestly, if you have enough foundation to stomp through Calc BC, you'll be fine for just about all of math - speaking from experience.

[cobalt moat]

calc 2 hard 👉 👈

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, gotcha. Take the best available offer: start programming and practicing, and don’t worry if you don’t land your dream job!

[hollow nacelle]

So is it worth creating a back up plan if I don’t get accepted into anything. Or is community college the definite plan I should go into?

[fringe sphinx]

Take the best opportunity you’ve got. Community college is fine. A 4 year university has some other benefits, such as a larger network of people you’ll meet, and a clear path to finish the degree.

[hollow nacelle]

I want to go to university but if I don’t get accepted I’m afraid that I’m not seeing an opportunity to go into CS in an alternative route and pick an option I may hate [community college]

[cobalt moat]

how can i make an arguement for getting college credit from internsjip

[white relic]

Many people goof off in HS and end up going to community college for a year or so and transferring later to finish a 4 year degree. It's super common. You should not feel like you're missing out on university if you don't get in to one this year. You've got time

As for doing something you hate, well, we all have to face that at some point. You should be prepared to suffer through some of the boring stuff. But you're going to have to do that whether you go to university or not

[hollow nacelle]

Man I know that but something about boredom is something different to me than any other type of suffering I’ve experienced. I’m less afraid of the boredom and more afraid of the idea of missing out if there is an option for me to get what I want with community college. Rn I have a month till my internship starts so I have to figure all this out before next year so I’m kinda stressed out rn. Maybe this is a stupid question but what would be something that would compensate for a degree. Even if it’s unrealistic.

[fringe sphinx]

Not to play mental health expert, but have you discussed this with your physician? ADHD presents in many different ways.

[hollow nacelle]

I haven’t been diagnosed with ADHD

[fringe sphinx]

That’s what I’m saying: given the boredom/suffering you’re mentioning, that’s worth researching.

[hollow nacelle]

I’ve always thought it was the difficulty of my work was the source of my boredom. I’ve only had 2 hard classes in my life one in my Junior year and one I’m taking rn and I don’t have this problem.

[white relic]

The first year or so of university is not going to be substantially different from the same classes at a community college. You're going to have some boring classes and some easy classes and some fun classes and some hard classes. It won't be automatically fun because you're taking it at a different institution

[hollow nacelle]

I thought it was normal that if a class felt slow to hate it

[fringe sphinx]

Read about adhd and boredom, and then think about your experience. Just saying it’s worth looking into.

[hollow nacelle]

But the purpose for going into every institution is different right? Even from university to university. That’s why they have their own mission statements

So wouldn’t the experience of my first 2 years differ depending on the institution?

[fringe sphinx]

From what I’ve seen, first year is largely identical in the US. 2 semesters of calc, 1-2 semesters of physical science, intro to programming, discrete, and then perhaps a writing course and other humanities.

Oh, not discrete. I meant DSA.

[hollow nacelle]

How about the environment it self and offered opportunities for internships and other experiences?

[fringe sphinx]

Varies on institution. Some schools make a big deal of coop and intern placement, others leave it to you.

[white relic]

Hating some classes is normal. But it sounds like you have recognized that your reaction to boredom is potentially outside normal, and it has negative effects on your ability to function in the world. That's probably something you're going to need to find coping strategies and habits to deal with, which work for you, because the world is not likely to bend over backwards to accommodate your desire to never be bored. You'll be bored at work, at home, when you're doing taxes, doing chores, in relationships. That's where it can be helpful to speak to a professional. Even if you don't have a diagnosable disorder, you may learn strategies and habits that help you cope with life. But that's just a mild suggestion.

[hollow nacelle]

I’m ok with being bored but like I said I wouldn’t be ok with being bored if I knew I didn’t have to be. Don’t take me trying to get out of doing community college as me trying to run away from boredom because I wasn’t. I just don’t want to regret if there was a better option that community college. I have a lot of free time coming up before my internship starts and I was trying to figure out if it was worth my time to cultivate an alternative plan besides college. Thanks for your time btw I didn’t expect this last a whole hour.

[fringe sphinx]

Good luck. And write code, often. That’s the real cheat code.

[vapid jay]

some

[true harness]

it depends on the college

[gritty rivet]

I may have missed a key part of this conversation somewhere but assuming you're in high school in the US or somewhere similar...

If you're determined to go to a four year school directly that is probably a reasonable goal. Your guidance counselor is the best person to help you to ensure that happens. They will know based on your grades and the specific HS and everything else where you have a good shot of getting in, and where you have a virtual guarantee of getting in. If you're applying to the right places including a couple of safety schools, there is no reason to assume it won't work out.

If your grades are truly abysmal then maybe your fallback will have to be community college for a year or two and then transfer, but now is not the time to worry about that

[hollow nacelle]

I mean by the time I apply I’d have a bit over a 3.0 gpa with 3.6 weighted. So that’s around a -B average with taking some of the hardest classes my school offers in my Junior/Senior years. So it’s not terrible but I’ve been only really looking at 2 safety colleges because I’m afraid of the finances of going to an out of state college that’s not even prestigious

But I’ll make sure to keep in contact with my consoler and college coordinator for this stuff

[gritty rivet]

In most states I'm familiar with, there are probably multiple public 4-year schools in state that you can reasonably expect to be admitted to. Are you counselors telling you otherwise?

[hollow nacelle]

No she didn’t. But the ones that I’ve seen have been mainly 4 colleges. One’s more of a reach and one doesn’t have the best CS program. I have been getting emails from other colleges but I haven’t been interested in them. They’ve mostly been catholic schools

But maybe I should start looking into more schools in my state

[gritty rivet]

Not sure if any of these will apply to you but sometimes it's possible to go to a neighboring state for near in-state costs: https://www.nasfaa.org/State_Regional_Tuition_Exchanges

[peak halo]

I’m afraid of the finances of going to an out of state college that’s not even prestigious
Holding everything else equal, the prestige of the university probably won't have any effect on your future potential or earnings. What matters more are the kinds of opportunities that exist at that university.

[hearty island]

whew, after doing my interview at [||REDACTED||], i did my interview for the DTCC today

[turbid bobcat]

I'm gonna be voted in as a CSO in the board of a 501c3. Apparently non US citizens can be board members as long as the board maintains a majority of US citizens.

[hasty isle]

those who finished day 1: 😎

[west summit]

What is the name of the website where only U.S. Citizens are allowed to apply?

[summer roost]

usajobs.gov for government jobs

[pearl spire]

A lot of companies in the US are actually not sponsoring as they used to so a lot of companies are US Citizen/Naturalized/Perm Resident based

[faint peak]

?av 660954377086828564

?av @vale isle

[regal axle]

Ehhh. That sounds like a quick way to hate your job. Money is cool and all, but you should still try to work with a team that is doing things you find interesting. And even if not that, you should find a team that you like the people. Because some FAANG (Amazon especially) can be very team dependent on if you have a good or bad time. For example, some teams will never work more than 40 hrs/w. But other teams will regularly work close to 80 hrs/w.
But it sounds like you want FAANG, to get Quant? In that case ... I guess you can brunt it. But FAANG is not the only path to Quant so I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish

[burnt cove]

What's my best path to combining networking (planning to get CCNA by next year) and Python for an actual job? DevOps maybe?

Especially would be cool if it utilizes ML, because that's practically the only thing keeping my attention at the moment.

[peak halo]

Any programming job can involve ML if it's just a matter of making API calls to existing models that abstract all the math. But if you're looking to get into model design and training, the only way is to get a degree that's specifically about that.

[gritty rivet]

Search for jobs that require both. Titles are just titles. Many network engineers use Python for automation

[summer roost]

This seems obviously wrong to me. Even if we only consider software engineers building greenfield stuff, why would a quant firm consider building DynamoDB for Amazon and building Chrome OS for Google to be exactly equally valuable prior experience?

[hearty island]

my apps have really dried up, i can't find a lot of roles that require 1-2 years of experience

[turbid bobcat]

How much of an effect will this have on my CV ? Will it make it more attractive or will people kind of not care ?

[hearty island]

primarily searching for "analyst", "business AND analyst"

maybe i'll try "analytics" too

[turbid bobcat]

I've just read a role called "Sr Prompt Engineer", at a good company too. I am under the impression that prompt engineering is less than one year old, so tbh, maybe we shouldn't care too much about the seniority part of the requirements.

[hearty island]

meh, i have definitely seen more success with my apps when they're suitable roles experience wise. but i see where you're coming from.

[turbid bobcat]

Yeah it makes sense, it's just that there seems to be a percentage of roles where they don't know what they want or what they are doing, so might be worth applying. Not even to all of them, but ones where it might be worth a shot. Like this one, they can't possibly be asking for a Sr Prompt Engineer.

[hearty island]

not to mention, a job posting is like a recruiter's dream

[turbid bobcat]

It has become a meme tho, "entry level, 30+XPyears of random tech that didn't exist 30+years ago"

[hearty island]

thanks man, you're genuinely helping me out

[turbid bobcat]

How so ?

[hearty island]

confidence wise

[turbid bobcat]

It's important to maintain a positive outlook, loss of confidence and hope may be your greatest enemy during a job search.

More so than the market itself

[hearty island]

yep, it's important to be persistent

[turbid bobcat]

It's easy to talk tho, I'm probly gonna be in the same boat in a month or so 😭

[hearty island]

i am definitely getting interviews, which is a good sign. i have gotten maybe 4 interviews this last month.

it's just a matter of converting these interviews into full time offers

[turbid bobcat]

I reckon it's a matter of time then

Not getting the interviews is what worries me, if I'm getting them I know I can just learn from mistakes and eventually land

[hearty island]

you will get them, my dude. ik you been grinding

[turbid bobcat]

Have a lot in my favor, but also, a lot against me. Only thing I can do is grind and hope for the best.

[hearty island]

against you?

[turbid bobcat]

Yeah, I'm aiming for the Bay Area and I'm not a US citizen. So it's gonna be tough. Like, I'm a strong candidate, but I'm also aiming quite high so it kind of offsets it.

[hearty island]

i mean what's going against me is the quality of my school imo

[hearty island]

which is why i did so many internships

[turbid bobcat]

Yeah XP is important. I've got 2Y under my belt with some good achievements, so internship wouldn't help me I think. I'm thinking of beefing up my portfolio after finishing my Algo studies + leetcode.

[hearty island]

ah i am graduating may '24

[turbid bobcat]

Ah you got time then. Are u graduating in CS ?

[hearty island]

i strongly believe that internships are one of the most important parts of undergrad

[hearty island]

biz analytics 😦 i did CS for freshman year and i struggled a lot. i'm one of those MIS kids essentially

[turbid bobcat]

MIS ?

[hearty island]

management info systems

[turbid bobcat]

I haven't done CS nor did I think software was a valid route for me till I started applying for jobs. So I never got any related internships. But portfolio was certainly what kick-started my career. I just did an awesome project that got recognition in my field and that was enough to get me interviews at the time.

[hearty island]

i've just been doing leetcode and trying to brush up on ds/algos in this server

[turbid bobcat]

Been doing the same thing. Once I'm done I'm gonna reduce the time I'm spending on it so I can do project.

[weak kindle]

What kind of project did you do?

[hearty island]

the recruiter who interviewed me was impressed by my internships and immediately moved me to the next round, no promises tho that i'll get the job.

[turbid bobcat]

I've coded a general purpose particle simulator, lets you simulate photons electrons and positrons in any matter and any geometry with CSG.

[hearty island]

wow, that sounds amazing

[weak kindle]

I have no idea what does that mean, sorry.
However what language and technology you used in it?

[turbid bobcat]

It was pretty hard but also the most fun I've ever had coding

[turbid bobcat]

I've followed a similar scheme as tensorflow and etcs. Python as the user "frontend", and lower level languages for the heavy lifting. Those included C, C++ and Cython.

[weak kindle]

Looks like you did alot

How long you been coding

[cyan valley]

NOt usre if this is the correct post, I'm learning python for a week-ish and I'm thinking about ML and AI, would you advise someone to learn Tensorflow or Pytorch?

[weak kindle]

Within a week

[turbid bobcat]

It's though to tell, my first contact with coding was when I was like 14, nothing too serious tho. I'd deploy stuff like forums and write some basic html and sometimes very basic php. Never got far cuz there was no one mentoring. Then I found python first year in college and maintained contact with it due to computational simulation classes. Then in my MSc was when I actually started doing serious coding, I was learning very quickly and that got noticed. One of the projects got upgraded to a thesis project and here we are.

[weak kindle]

What sparked your interest in coding at the age of 14? 🧐

[turbid bobcat]

I was playing travian and I'd setup forums for the alliances I had

[charred lance]

Wow nice to know

[turbid bobcat]

How so

[charred lance]

Knowing what triggered your interest to been a dev

[turbid bobcat]

Ah no I was more or less forced into it due to covid. I was gonna do PhD. But I don't regret it one bit tho, I'm super glad I'm in this field.

I can still do PhD but in something even more interesting. And possibly sponsored by a company.

[hearty island]

it would be nice if the company i work for pays for my MSBA, but in this economy i doubt it

[charred lance]

Something interesting like Ai or blockchain

[turbid bobcat]

I'm thinking quantum AI, tho pretty niche rn. But anything ML and AGI very much peaks my interest due to the developments with GPT.

[turbid bobcat]

I think PhD is more feasible cuz you can do it in something that will create value for the company.

I've been in a place where they do it, you just need to do it in their key areas of research.

[charred lance]

Wow this is also a good idea
If you started coding at 14 during covid
Means you 17rn I guess?

[turbid bobcat]

No no, I got into the industry cuz COVID made a mess out of my life. But I had been coding for a while.

[charred lance]

Alright but have you been coding for more than 10 years?

[turbid bobcat]

Also not too accurate. Coding has been punctually part of my life. Had a class here and there where 20% was for coding. And also did some stuff when I was a kid. But it became a big part of my studies on the second half of 2019 I'd say. And it eventually became my life.

[charred lance]

Cool
I'm just starting my career

[turbid bobcat]

Awesome, how are you liking it ?

[hidden bloom]

technically companies can revoke offers right? like i am having a zooms meeting to discuss it further this wednesday and obviously i am not going to accept it right away.. and i will ask how long i will have to respond but i do not want to lose it?

[hybrid bison]

Hey, could you please guide me? I'm Arshan Aslam, a software engineer with 2 years of experience as a Full Stack web developer using Django and React. I'm interested in knowing what I should learn next.

[peak halo]

what is your goal?

[hybrid bison]

As a Full Stack web developer, I've handled numerous server deployments and integrated CI/CD pipelines. My goal is to learn DevOps, followed by data science and then machine learning. However, I'm unsure which one to pursue first. Data science or DevOps

[fringe sphinx]

Most offer letters have a time limit / date, at least for what I've seen.

[gritty rivet]

I'm not sure I follow... They made an offer but you're still deciding? That's fine, but the longer you make them wait the higher the risk they will move on. You can tell them you need x amount of days and ask if that's ok.

[peak halo]

Unless you work at a company that hires ML engineers and would support you in a lateral move to ML, you probably will not be able to get an ML-related position without getting an ML-related degree from a university.

There also isn't a widely-adhered-to standard for what a "data scientist" is, so you might be able to get "data scientist" as your job title without doing anything that resembles your understanding of what "data science" is.

If you were to "learn devops", what skills do you envision that you would accuire? Because you've mentioned doing full stack development and handling deployments, and that sounds like the definition of devops.

[fringe sphinx]

I always wonder about these questions and whether when people say ‘data science’ they really mean ‘anything related to data, including data analysis, engineering, etc’

[hybrid bison]

I have limited experience with microservices and Kubernetes tools and aim to enhance my skills and deepen my understanding of these areas.

[vapid jay]

What the hell is return in python?

oh wrong chat

[gritty rivet]

The whole point of DevOps as an approach is that it's not separate from development. If you want to keep adding to your skills then moving from full stack to something like platform or SRE is quite natural

Data engineering is another area where you can support ML engineers and apply DevOps skills without necessarily needing the kind of advanced math required for data science / ML

Shifting to data science would be considered a more drastic change that requires totally different skills.

[smoky quest]

Let me use a broken analogy. You are saying "I want to turn right, then left, then go straight for 200m".
It's a plan. Planning to learning about microservices is a step in your plan, not a goal in itself.

So I would encourage you to take a step back and think about: to what end?
Learning about kubernetes could be extremely useful in some context or an extreme waste of your time in some other

[outer granite]

If I were to join a coding bootcamp, for example, would that bootcamp help me get my first coding job remotely if I were to want my first job to be remote?

[peak halo]

is this one of those bootcamps that guarantees you get a job or your money back? because they'll do whatever it takes to fulfill that condition, even if you don't end up liking it.

[outer granite]

My question is, could I get my first coding job remotely via coding bootcamp or nah?