career-advice

[dusky gazelle]

hehe yeah I just would like it if were flipped

my senior dev buddy told me "most people don't start thinking about architecture and clean code seriously until they are 10 years into their career.."

[past fossil]

wdym by clean code tho

[dusky gazelle]

google books Clean Code and Clean Architecture. its a school of thought

[digital fjord]

I don't really think you can do that, clean code requires you actually work with larger codebases, so that you know what the point of all of it. Just getting a bunch of design patterns thrown at you and forcing them into a project teaches little (I would know, I did just that and am truly no wiser. Had a great UML diagram though).

[past fossil]

u mean readable code or is it something else??

[dusky gazelle]

You should be working on projects, while you study design patterns

[plush summit]

Why is your pfp soo boring as an admin it is a shame

[dusky gazelle]

readable, short, expressive, flexible, has separation of concerns etc. there are a bunch of metrics

[lapis wind]

Also, this is assuming the commercial projects even contain clean code to begin with...
If you are inheriting a legacy codebase, chances are there are some wacky things going on, and it's not really the current developer's fault that what used to be considered 'clean code' 5, 10, 15 years ago, is no longer 'clean'

[brazen island]

I do not like IoC containers but I'm OK with regular, constructor based DI. It's just composition but you pass in the thing in the constructor, basically just Strategy. I never name it like this though, I only do it if it feels "natural". Like a Payment interface and then I pass in Stripe, Paypal or whatever. These are external dependencies so I might want to mock them 🙂 <-- valid use case

[past fossil]

bruh its the same as urs

[dusky gazelle]

im not assuming that. Im just advocating for beginners to attempt to get good at the form of the code, instead of hyper focusing on its functionality

[digital fjord]

I would argue that a small project will not run into a situation where code being bad is all that important, since they are often done at some point. Clean code really matters when it is code that will still be used and changed decades later.

[lapis wind]

I don't think the majority of juniors are doing that... Most of the juniors i've seen are simply trying to exist and understand what is even going on in a large scale code base, the practices used and the code style used rather than functionality.

[dusky gazelle]

also another example is if you're building out a system, and you create an event handling apparatus, it is really useful to include the word PubSub, so engineers instantly know what approach you're taking for event handling

class Engine {
  eventManager: PublishSubscribe
}

[lapis wind]

And if you are a junior trying to hyper optimise something, that very quickly gets drive out by any competent senior engineer who goes "Sorry but someone is gonna have to maintain this after you, so no you cant do that"

[brazen island]

If I have a class that needs to talk to the DB I wouldn't inject the DB in there, that makes no real sense (unless I have multiple DBs?). You can just instantiate it inside. DI is fine but you need to "think" about it. Problem is that people don't think about all the pros and cons of patterns and they turn their code into an abstraction spaghetti.

[dusky gazelle]

the code being bad is important because you should aspire to be a professional with quality code.

If you try to make such projects, unseen by others, as perfect as any human could, you'll develop skills that other professionals don't have.

you should overengineer your little personal projects. You should try to make the code as clean and flexible as possible

[digital fjord]

yes, but it won't affect your development experience all that much. You can follow all the practices in project A, not follow them in project B, and a single dev is unlikely to really feel them to be all that different. Meaning teaching it like that is going to be quite ineffective.

[dusky gazelle]

you should find intrinsic value in the practice of coding itself, instead of just seeing it as a means to an end

[digital fjord]

there is a reason people don't think about this until a decade of moving around lots of bad code, not just that it isn't encouraged enough

[brazen island]

Design patterns / clean code become an anti-pattern when you glorify them and you're doing that right now. The best code is not the one with the most abstractions, it's the one with the most fit for purpose ones. Overengineering simple code to practice is wrong.

[dusky gazelle]

you should lift weights that as heavy as you can while in the gym so that you are more competent in real life scenarios
you guys: 🥴

[dusky gazelle]

Your personal projects are for practice. You should try to go all out and pursue perfection

[brazen island]

What you're describing is not perfection, it's the exact opposite 😄

[digital fjord]

For a lot of projects, perfection is a basic procedural a bunch of functions calling each other with like... 2 structs/dataclasses.

That is the other kind of junior. The one that throws design patterns everywhere, without regard that they just created 3 classes and 5 points of indirection instead of calling a function. Sometimes, this has merit, a junior is likely unqualified to determine that though.

[plush summit]

When should you be able to get an allright job next to cs uni im in my first year and do 100 days of python on the side (only on day 20 cuz im pretty bussy with school 😅)

[dusky gazelle]

I am not saying to over-engineer products on the job. Just that overengineering is great practice

try making a terminal text adventure game, but with the goal of making it as robust as possible, such that you could implement as many features you think you might possible want in the future, if this were a large scale professional project. that will teach you a lot

[lapis wind]

So the general awnser would probably be "with time" the more realistic awnser in the current climate is more likely "Depends on who you know"

[dusky gazelle]

beginners approach personal projects as "im going to write this code one time, get it to work, and then never touch it again".

that's not very useful

its extremely useful to approach it as "how can i take this simple little game, and make it as abstract and flexible and extensible as possible"
so that you can add any features you want easily in the future. (even though you never will)

[daring girder]

guys if u could go back in time to teach ur self python. what would u teach urself first (i am a beginner and i need help)

[brazen island]

My last contribution to this discussion is that YAGNI has been the prevailing idea in software engineering for over 20 years.

[daring girder]

also what apps or websites would u use

[white relic]

If you're in school now, you can begin to apply for internships, which normally do not really require any substantial experience (the point of an internship being to get experience)
Freshman internships aren't super common around here but not unheard of either. Your uni may have a career center that can help.

[dusky gazelle]

"you aren't going to need to lift 250lbs, why do it at the gym"

beginners who take your advice and don't invest in learning abstraction and design patterns, are helpless when they actually do need it

[digital fjord]

The problem is no one wants to do that. You want to enjoy programming, and doing insane DI, design pattern-laden abstract nonsense is only somewhat fun the first time you do it.

[dusky gazelle]

beginners who try to go hard and overengineer their little toy chess game, will be able to do it when the time calls

[dusky gazelle]

I love learning and implementing design patterns. I love thinking abstractly
its an attitude you have to have towards programming.

[plush summit]

Just wondering but don t need a job for now was Just curious Just it could make my cv better when i have programming related jobs bef

[dusky gazelle]

how is "my code is now much more flexible, I've unlocked so much potential, and it's easier to understand" now something that is fun

the sort of people who don't like investing in clean code / design patterns, are typically people who program because they like the applications they can build with it, rather than because they like the act of programming itself.

[lapis wind]

Or the more realistic thing to happen is they get in the habit of over engineering everything and apply it to things which do not need to be over engineered

[white relic]

Internships are great for that

[dusky gazelle]

taking it down a notch from over-engineering to appropriate-engineering is much easier to do to a jr dev than taking a jr dev who underengineers and raising them up to appropriate-engineering

and our industry clearly suffers from the latter problem than it does the former

[lapis wind]

I disagree tbh, it's much easier to say "can you extend this to add this extra XYZ functionality" rather than "can you please stop adding 40 extra features to your fizzbuzz program"

[dusky gazelle]

how many jr devs do you know are over-engineering (with abstraction and design patterns) their code, versus jr devs that barely use them and just write tons and tons of concrete imperative, long code

[dusky gazelle]

and then they go "yeah sure, i'll just use inheritance here!"
because they haven't learned about composition vs inheritance yet. Or a more appropriate design pattern, etc.

[dusky gazelle]

why would you disagree and then say this though lol.

the latter obviouly is easier

the first question is asking them to do a task they haven't learned yet. the second is asking them to stop doing something they know how to do

"can you speak french" vs "can you please stop speaking english"

[coarse crag]

As a beginner.

Data structures and algorithms sounds like a "what it is"

Meanwhile clean code and design patterns sounds more like "how to do it"

And personally. I wouldn't know "how to do it" without understanding "what it is"...

But then again. I'm just a beginner.

[dusky gazelle]

"what it is" is the basics and doesnt take that long.

what these other guys are talking about is inverting binary trees or implementing their own hashmap

i have done neither in my 5 years of programming, and yet I've built all sorts of programs

doing the "super hard" section on leetcode, is what im talking about. Those sorts of problems are not necessary to understand
it's primarily useful for getting jobs in coding interviews

[coarse crag]

I see

[dusky gazelle]

writing code that works is the first stage of programming. then after that, you have two skill trees you can invest in:

• the performance of code - math, algorithms, low-level hardware considerations
• the shape of code - abstraction, elegance, readability, flexibility, artistic considerations

[buoyant seal]

i think there is a fine balance should be in engineering right enough for robustness to develop further but not really making for things that only might be

So.. having thorough unit testing + static typing ensures easy code refactorability for development further, that makes enough only sufficient amount of functions/classes for any current implementation to make

[dusky gazelle]

but most junior developers are not even close to over-abstacting their code

so they don't really need to hear "don't overengineer your code", or it will just give them an excuse to continue writing their rigid, concrete, massively unreadable codebases

[true harness]

these are trivial challenges , not "super hard"

[buoyant seal]

force good testing coverage and static typing onto their code base 😅 that will be better improvement in code quality for most of interpreting language code bases
that is very easy to enforce automatically (after all easy to check in CI)

I mean code architecture is cool, but... it is hard to enforce. those things above will improve with lesser cost to enforce

[dusky gazelle]

I wasn't saying that those two specifically are super hard

[dusky gazelle]

not sure what you mean. if you are using OOP, then the architecture is already self-documented and self-enforced

because most entities are classes, or subclasses, or interfaces, with explicitly defined contracts in relation to each other

[buoyant seal]

ergh... how is it self enforced? python(or javascript) is flexible to make everything, hacking code syntax and accessing any private variable
for real self enforcement u need to have smth like Golang or Java at least (or mypy at least 😄 )

[true harness]

self documented is even more of a stretch

[dusky gazelle]

your IDEs and linters and pre-runners should be stopping you

in TypeScript or Python + some language server

you can turn js and python into professional grade (or close enough to) languages, by using typescript or python + linters that have static type rules

[vapid jay]

Have you read Introduction to algorithms or CLRS and if so.. would you consider its content applicable to typical Soft Eng work, say.. the type of work which was being discussed or "CRUD" web apps?

[buoyant seal]

your IDEs and linters and pre-runners should be stopping you
should... no. That is not reliable way to enforce anything in code base. Better to put into CI check during Pull Request and having possible to merge PRs only if CI run is succesful and some code review is present that it was not disabled

[vapid jay]

Which literature would teach "clean code / design" here, specifically?

I still don't get which data structures one needs to know, apart from the hash, mentioned above

[dusky gazelle]

listen to clean code and clean architecture on audible by robert c martin.

or code that fits in your head by mark seeman.

or design patterns by GoF

[vapid jay]

What would be a replacement data structure that would be used instead of an array on a second iteration of a design here?

Oh my God. This comment deeply surprised me, but I respect it.

Given "learn X" or "learn nothing", it's probably better to learn X but... between learning X and Y it is a bit of a choice.. as we don't have infinite time and even if we had.. some Xs realise gains before some Ys and viceversa, isn't that so?

Would you spend time on X or Y is a frequent dilemma and comparative returns on X Vs Y is a good start on choosing, isn't it?

What's a Strategy I might have used without knowing that I was using Strategy? So that I now... know.

[vapid jay]

Seems loosely defined to me too, which means... I'd love to hear it more precisely defined.

[digital fjord]

It feels a bit like asking should I learn to hammer in nails or screw in screws if I want to be a woodworker. Sure, one of the two will probably be more beneficial in some contexts, but really, you need to eventually learn both to be effective.

[vapid jay]

Apparently it's useful to teach oneself hash. Which in Python I guess it's a dictionary?

[vapid jay]

Oh, why is that, by the way? I am genuinely asking with curiosity

[true harness]

it's not quite the same idea, though. dsa is hammering nails, screwing screws. writing clean code is like craftsmanship: how you put together the nails and wood to make the final product good

[dusky gazelle]

clean, abstract code, reads self-evidently (convo wasnt about comments but the meme was relevant)

[vapid jay]

Ok. So ISBNs:

• 978-0134494166
• 978-0132350884
• 978-0137464401
  is that it?

[dusky gazelle]

theres another I hear is great called Dependency Injection Principles, Practices, Patterns,

there are tons of books out there, lots that I havent read, that i am sure are great

[vapid jay]

Thanks.
ISBN 978-1617294730

[dusky gazelle]

but I personally have found the audible versions of Clean Code and Clean Architecture extremely beneficial. So easy to listen to and absorb

you can clean your house while listening to it or drive to work

[pure saffron]

._.

[dusky gazelle]

yeah this is good statement

[past fossil]

i think im in the bottom cuz its aldr hard enough to make the code run without any bugs but to do it while making it look clean is wayy harder

[white relic]

You can get very very far with arrays and hash maps. But when you come to design something to solve a real world problem then you start facing decisions about how you apply them. I'm writing something at work where I parse a Verilog file containing a digital circuit and perform some custom manipulation on it. I'm using arrays to implement a graph. I need to know about graphs because that's the shape of the problem I'm solving. I need to know about arrays because that's what I'm using to build the graphs. Both graphs and arrays are data structures topics.
Sean Parent has a good talk on data structures

[vapid jay]

What's the message of this meme?

[dusky gazelle]

both really bad programmers, and really good programmers, do not write comments in their code, for different reasons

[vapid jay]

Hey you said that one would replace arrays with something else after some thought.. replace them with what?

[white relic]

that must have been someone else

[past fossil]

maybe he is talking about json

[dusky gazelle]

when you are bad, you have really bad code, and you dont write comments because you're lazy

when you are good, your code is so good, that you don't need comments, and see them as an excuse for bad code

[vapid jay]

Thanks. So.. average programmers write comments? I will then not write comments so I have 50% of appearing like a super good programmer

[dusky gazelle]

right, average programmers think comments are really good and should be written often.

that's what they hear everyone else say

[vapid jay]

Replace arrays with JSON?

[dusky gazelle]

@vapid jay this youtube channel is a fantastic resource
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf7vDBBOBUA

[vapid jay]

I like it. It's somehow deep, and philosophical. Zen-like. So clear you don't need an explanation. Borderline magical.

[past fossil]

thats the only thing i can think of that can be used instead of arrays

[dusky gazelle]

yeah exactly. The code just reads intuitively

[true harness]

write comments. the code is always clear to the developer that wrote it...

[vapid jay]

Learn clean code to replace arrays with possibly JSON... or...

[dusky gazelle]

you can write code that is clear to other developers if you follow these sorts of principles

comments are a crutch for developers who haven't learned how to do that

developers whose functions are 20+ lines long and rarely use abstraction/encapsulation

[near ocean]

This has gone far beyond the topic of careers I think
Comment or don't, who cares

[vapid jay]

Give me an example of abstraction/encapsulation in the sense you mean it here, please. A code example. I can read Python, a bit.

Back to the topic of Career.. I think a winning move to build a career is to do the same as somebody else, but cheaper

[dusky gazelle]

can you tell me what each little block of code, the for loops are doing, etc? just by looking at it?

[past fossil]

bro yall gotta pick a pfp that is not the default i thought that yall both were the same person lmao

[vapid jay]

I can guess..

[pure saffron]

Sorry to interrupt the chat but... im new, should I use vscode or sublime (you guys can ignore this dumb question)

[vapid jay]

I think one wins on the job market these days by being cheaper and equally capable

[past fossil]

neovim

[dusky gazelle]

if you feel the need to use comments, you probably are failing to extract a sub process into it's own function.

[past fossil]

ngl this is kinda readable

[white relic]

despite what else is going on right now, this channel is for career discussion

[dusky gazelle]

the comments are a bandaid solution

[near ocean]

Can we please not have code blocks in here, you guys realise there are 3 offtopic channels

[vapid jay]

Bad code? So replace comments with function calls?

[dusky gazelle]

that is one solution, that usually is the right way to go

there are others, where better naming conventions, etc. are the solution.

i would watch that video I linked https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf7vDBBOBUA

[vapid jay]

Dude I am never gonna write a comment after this

[dusky gazelle]

oh.. you've just been trolling me

gonna head out, thanks

[past fossil]

bruh all thats changed is that u addded more functions with verbose names

[true harness]

or you can be more capable than the competition

[vapid jay]

Or that, yes

[vapid jay]

But as you grow more competent the persons and contexts that will value it... decrease

[true harness]

why would that be the case

[vapid jay]

If you are more competent than 80% of the sample size.. some will not even realise how much more competent you are by definition

What scares me the most about one day working in "code" is how strongly these opinions are held. It terrifies me.

[kindred oyster]

bruh you guys have been called out previously too
this is not related to topic of this channel , better move this convo to a more appropriate channel

[true harness]

what definition is that? and your competition isn't judging, employers are, so why would that matter?

[dusky gazelle]

we have been talking about what skillset is more relevant for career

[true harness]

yes, but the nitty gritty of examples like this is better for another channel

[vapid jay]

I meant is so: if you write E = mc^2 and know what it means... a lot of people won't and you won't be much more competent that the others who are competent in comparison to the person making the judgement call. No?

[kindred oyster]

from reading, it looks like u guys were talking about comments and code
which is not about career discussion

[dusky gazelle]

software is a craft and all craftsmans will develop increasingly sophisticated and confidently held opinions after years of practicing their craft.

the nice thing is, you can observe the trend. most legendary software experts converge on a lot of this stuff

[vapid jay]

But I am terrified about being discarded by somebody who thinks that making a function call is so much better than having a comment before the exact same lines of code, for the exact same result. Isn't that immensely scary?

[vapid jay]

Examples of legendary software experts?

[dusky gazelle]

there are subtleties, that professionals have developed, and beginners haven't that add up over time

[dusky gazelle]

mark seeman, robert c martin, martin fowler, all the gang of four guys etc

[vapid jay]

But Martin Fowler hasn't written much code, has he?

[dusky gazelle]

i would assume he has

[vapid jay]

To legendary level? Give me an example of code he wrote?

Linux: Linux + Git. Legendary? If one believes in legends, I guess so?

[dusky gazelle]

go listen to his lectures that thousands of people attend and study

[vapid jay]

I will. I still ask for a code example though.. have one, please?

[dusky gazelle]

I don't, there's plenty out there

i'd be more willing to find one if I hadn't been conversationally tricked by you for 20 minutes. doesn't feel good faith anymore

[vapid jay]

So it should be easy to retrieve among the plenty out there. Any bit of legendary code will do.

[kindred oyster]

guys not here

[near ocean]

Why are you continuing this

[dusky gazelle]

refer above. ive given my reasoning on the code examples ive already posted and you haven't had a rejoinder to it. not going to go search for more examples from other authors

[vapid jay]

I have a Career-related question. As one advances in one's career.. are these beliefs still so strongly maintained? Is a Junior Engineer typically less opinionated than an Engineer and so on going through Senior, Staff, etc.? Is part of the status one projects about oneself that of holding strong convictions? Is it well accepted in the industry and leads to hire decisions or promote decisions or is it frowned upon? How does one best express these strong opinions for the betterment of one's career? On LinkedIn, in an insightful post? On a personal blog? Is it truly a currency of success to be able to recite these principles in contexts which evaluate a professional and if so.. should these mantras be practised like one would "grind" LeetCode?

[dusky gazelle]

chestertons fence. you don't know what you don't know. consider the possibility that these senior developers know something that you dont

[vapid jay]

For sure they do. I have no doubt about that

[buoyant seal]

that's wrong approach too
McConnel in book Code Complete, Second edition, chapter: 32.3 To Comment or Not to Comment: page 781 and 32.4 Keys to Effective Comments (Chapter 32 essentially to read)
perfectly explains when it is reasonable and when it is not to write comments

TLDR: if to summarize better, he explains throughly when you can convey meaning of they code through better names of variables, functions,classes
ANd when u can't, and there u need actually comments to explain difficult tricky situations explaining your choice why u did it in this way

[kindred oyster]

continue this in off topic, not here. you guys are just polluting this channel with this code and comments and how to write code and stuff

[onyx basin]

Hello, I'm a bit nervous when it comes to jobs..
I'm fetching for some jobs on upwork as a python programmer..
I found someone who want's a programmer to make program him a API call on an api that swaps faces and stuff.. he's offering 5 usd for the job to be done.. it's jjst a simple post request on the api..
I've headed out to the api docs he provided and read the section that we was pointing at, I don't know if I can do the job or not.. I'm a bit terrified, this would be my first real task/job, what do I do?

[vapid jay]

But, to stick to the Career topic.. is it good to advance in one's career to, say, memorise all of the Design Principles and drop them at every chance of doing so because each time that's done it's a +1 on the perf review score? Will people who do not hold one of those principles to heart (rightly or wrongly, this is important) welcome something so subtle as "that's how I should have done it too and thus I was wrong and this colleague is right"? Will it create a career-enhancing dynamic to wield these principles? Will those who don't know then even recognise them? Will they see the value? Is it a good thing to bet on in terms of building one's career.. ?

[kindred oyster]

you have to start somewhere. this looks a good first time gig, i dont see a reason why you shouldnt do it

[vapid jay]

True. Although if the client isn't happy is like a negative first review on Airbnb.. makes future business much harder than a clean slate.

Upwork has client happiness scores / feedback

Doing something one is confident about delivering well and on time sounds like a safe bet

[kindred oyster]

but the chances of screwing up in a simple post request in python are much less than say something like making a GUI app or python game

[onyx basin]

I'm afraid i wouldn't succeed on doing the projèct..
The docs are explained in bash and that what terrified me the most

Ik it's the same but just terrified

[kindred oyster]

docs are explained in bash ? wdym 🤷‍♂️

[kindred oyster]

this looks like a standard JSON response from a server , i dont think thats related to bash

[kindred oyster]

that is the code to make the request to server. In the picture they are doing it with curl which is a CLI tool. In your case, you will do it with python libraries like requests

[onyx basin]

well I know, it's just some fear inside me...
anyways let's say I didn't succeed at this simple stupid post request, or anything else.. what's the worst that could happen?

[kindred oyster]

client gives you a bad review

[vapid jay]

An unhappy customer and a negative review?

[onyx basin]

hm, okayy, well what's the best way to get out of that situation? -- apologies?

[vapid jay]

Oh, I bet 5 USD that isn't something one can guarantee never to encounter, even as an expert ad-hoc "tasker"

[kindred oyster]

just come out clean. Dont lie. Apologies
if they threaten you with bad review, request them to not leave a bad review / deny the 5 bucks

[onyx basin]

Ok i'm going to apply for that task

I feel like going to the battle ground..
Someone's going to chop my head off 😂

Thanks for explaining y'all

[pine sleet]

5 USD does seem a little low for something like that

That's worth maybe 10 minutes of your time

[fringe sphinx]

I think you’ve built a mental caricature of what professional SWEs are like. Professional SWE-ing isn’t like discord or blog posts or YouTube or Reddit. The arrogant antisocial engineer is an anomaly, not the rule. Watch europython or pycon: you’ll see humble engineers and technologists sharing their passion with the world. There’s no gatekeeping, nobody (besides Elon Musk) is measuring how ‘hardcore’ you are or how leet your code is. Seniors are very encouraging of juniors, and understand that engineers solve things in different ways.

[vapid jay]

Got gpt4

Will try to learn cpp from it

[buoyant seal]

There are certain undoubtedly good principles of minimal code quality
And they are possible overengineering in usage of them.
So, it depends on what u will demonstrate 😉 i would not say about mindlessly applying Design Patterns. everything should be justified, including why certain abstraction became present.

So, once again the answer is... it depends 😁

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, I took that comment as some sort of hot take about performance evals (that faking it will somehow increase you annual review score).

[buoyant seal]

it is not i think. the point is in being better

1. digging requirement what needs to be done better
2. doing stuff making more important impact to improve stuff
3. writing anything that is maintainable in a long run but u spent sufficiently minimal amount of time to reach highest quality at a lowest cost. Each code/app has different a bit terms of required quality in addition 🤔 often quality propagates at the level already established by written code of app, but still there is a wiggle room to write cleaner sections a bit) 😄

[fringe osprey]

Hello guys, just joined yesterday, do you happen to know if there are companies that usualy hire people without experience working as a Python Developer to begin their careers?I just started to work on my portfolio to have something to show for the interview. Also after checking linkedin I saw they are usualy looking for mid or senior experience, and if it says entry level they expect you to have at least 2-4 years of experience.
(As certifications I only have CCNA1 and a Python Fundamentals course)
Thank you! :D

Appologies for the long message

[true harness]

there exists companies that hire entry level developers with no experience

[raw vine]

Does anyone have any recommendations for bootcamps/non-degree related educational programs?

[fringe sphinx]

I also assume you mean "no degree" too?

[fringe sphinx]

!resources If you need to learn Python first, see this page. A Byte of Python and Automate the Boring Stuff are popular ebooks. There's lots of youtube channels (bro code, corey schaffer) that are great. And, if you want a structured course: CS50p.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[fringe osprey]

Nope, I am studying to get my Higher Studies diploma, buuut it will be for Financial Management

[fringe sphinx]

Is that like a 2 year degree? (what we call an associates in the US)

[fringe osprey]

It's a 3 years actually

[fringe sphinx]

Interesting, I'm slowly learning non-US degrees, thanks. It's hard to land a SWE entry job without a 4 year CompSci degree and a lot of work. But, there are many types of jobs in tech, and with a finance background, there are a lot of finance and fintech roles that value programming and data analysis skills (besides pure "quant" jobs, there are all sorts of financial analysts who use Python/Jupyter on the regaular)

This was posted here yesterday (but is from Dec 2022) and I'd suggest reading it carefully, it does a great job of talking about todays job market: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-software-engineers/

[vapid jay]

Which is why the strength of the convictions expressed here surprised me a lot

[vapid jay]

Prompt it to teach you as modern a version of it as possible

[vapid jay]

Cheap is gold, I seem to notice out there

[fringe sphinx]

Selection bias. The silent majority of engineers have no time for nonsense like Discord and Reddit. Especially seniors. Also, it'd be exhausting to qualify everything we post with "imo", "ime", "I think", "perhaps", etc. That should be assumed. We're stating our opinion and experience, especially in this channel.

[vapid jay]

I mean I know most cpp

[true harness]

the working people aren't on discord all day 😩

[vapid jay]

Just trying to learn the stl stuff

[fringe osprey]

Thank you for the article, I will look into it! 😃

[vapid jay]

And some practice for oops

[fringe sphinx]

Also: You have 3 years. Learning programming requires an investment of time: you need to code, coding takes time (often long hours when working on something complex). If you invest the time starting now, you'll be in great shape in 3 years. If you need pointers on how to get started learning beyond what we shared, ask in #python-discussion

[civic isle]

Hi, how difficult would yall say it would be to get a data science job with no degree?

[white relic]

Likely very difficult. Exactly how difficult depends on a multitude of factors one of the big ones being location. But not easy

Data science is pretty mathy

[delicate bane]

highly difficult.

[civic isle]

What about with like a certificate from codecademy or something?

[civic isle]

Welp maybe a electric lineman it is

[white relic]

Actually I considered applying for that with my engineering degree haha

[delicate bane]

certificates like that arent worth much in the industry.

it would be a different story if youre looking for a cloud job and you had aws/azure/gcp certs, etc.

[civic isle]

It’s so tempting 😂😂

[civic isle]

And with azure, would the best place to get those certificates be directly from Microsoft?

[delicate bane]

yes

[gray elk]

Anyone mind reviewing my GitHub https://github.com/robbiebusinessacc

[gritty rivet]

What I expect most hiring people will be looking for is a summary of key projects and what skills they demonstrate. I don't think many people will spend much time poking through your links and scrolling through repos you forked trying to find what they're looking for.

If you have a proper resume and portfolio site, then this is fine

Those can link directly to the relevant repos and people can choose to ignore all this extra stuff they may or may not care about (in most cases I expect they won't)

[fringe sphinx]

My usual speech here is: There are lots of (types of) jobs in tech, and lots of jobs in "data". There are opportunities at all levels, but you have to understand a little more about the landscape and what types of roles are available for different backgrounds.

[outer granite]

Extremely difficult. I think to be considered for Data Science you at least need a Master's in Data Science.

Most job postings prioritize people with Masters in Data Science. Also, experience is quite worthy too.

[fringe sphinx]

I think the problem here is language: when people ask about "data science", I now assume there's a difference between what we think that means vs the OP... hence my "lots of types of jobs" comment.

Like, there's entry roles in data entry, data analysis, prompt engineering, etc plus QA, operations, support, IT,

[outer granite]

I have scrolled through many job postings on LinkedIn related to Data Science, my opinion is based on that.

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, I'm agreeing with you... I'm just saying that I think people who ask this question aren't really looking for those roles.

[outer granite]

Are those things considered Data Science?

[near ocean]

No

[white relic]

"Data analysis" maybe but the rest no

[near ocean]

Glorified excel jokey more like

[fringe sphinx]

To the usual poster asking about this who hasn't started their first tutorial or bootcamp? I dunno, I think they lump everything in the same bucket.

I dunno, don't want to derail the conversation, I just always worry about the "How do I get into data science?" => "Get a PhD" conversation with people just starting out.

[white relic]

I assume people ask about data science specifically because it's a high paying subfield and they're (usually) looking for an easy way in

Data entry isn't relevant if that's the root of the question

[outer granite]

Sure, it's an easy way in if you have hands-on experience with statistics, probability theory, data visualization, machine learning, deep learning, artificial neural networks, linear algebra, programming and more...

[fringe sphinx]

Hmm, I need to think about how to approach these types of questions a bit. Perhaps I'm skipping a step of saying: "Hey, pure 'DS' is probably unattainable without a lot of grad school, but if you're asking how you can get into the 'Data' side of tech, there are a lot of DS/DE adjacent fields" or something like that.

[spare wasp]

why

[brazen island]

Here getting an actual DS job isn't too bad because the competition is a bit Ill equipped. Many natural science folk / non-CS engineers / etc. Most have quite an academic background and if you can "do" something you're already ahead.

Having a master's degree is a hard requirement though unless it's a data analysis job that was rebranded into data science. Might be possible if you got in through experience but I haven't seen it tbf. Very country dependent.

[fringe sphinx]

wrong channel, plz see: #❓｜how-to-get-help

[iron shadow]

is this channel limited to the involvement of python in my topic?

[fringe sphinx]

This channel is about careers (jobs, job searching, education/prep for jobs, etc)... but not job posting/hiring. For general, see #python-discussion . For non-Python, there's the Off-Topic channels.

[iron shadow]

yeah it is about a career that may or may not include python

i am not too sure which is the point of the topic i wanted to discuss

[civic isle]

I was thinking of things like data analyst, or machine learning, nlp stuff like that

[fringe sphinx]

Eh, just ask, we talk about all sorts of stuff here

[warm tree]

Is Linkedin important?

[near ocean]

Kind of

[iron shadow]

so previously i had a similar discussion about careers in web development and the involvement of all those quick site building programs (CMS) out there and its growing technology - as opposed to someone like me who's been practicing full-stack and writing full code.

that conversation normally ended with one person saying that it wont be taking over coders anytime soon and one saying to be open minded and to not lock into a career like web development just yet or something like that. Either way, it was a bit vague to me

because ive been coding for a while with python and stuff and i did want to focus/"lock" into building my skills for full stack web building

with that aside and assuming that i would pick that career, how would i go on about seeing some people near me build sites with less to none knowledge about sites using CMS technologies and somehow convince myself my skillset would be more valuable?

[fringe osprey]

Well, at least now I have a road to follow on.For starters I will keep tryings to work on a GUI app and keep adding features and fix bugs as much as my creativity holds. 🙂

[iron shadow]

i agree that, for now learning/practicing programming languages to build sites brings one developer more flexibility

but ive even see some complicated sites being built with those CMS programs

[warm tree]

Any recommendations on how to improve it?

[true harness]

your linkedin is mostly based on the content . so get better experience and education, i guess

[hexed hazel]

wheare can i get help related about python?

[brazen island]

#python-discussion and #1035199133436354600

[hexed hazel]

Thankyou

[smoky quest]

Definitely!
They will be important for your growth and skills.

Do you think books like "Introduction to Algorithms" are not applicable to writing physics engines or web apps?

What algorithms do you think would someone have to learn?

[near ocean]

Simple crud apps are not representative of real life work either

[smoky quest]

sounds like we are discussing the value of knowing algorithms to write code. Which seems quite a weird hot take

[fringe sphinx]

This usually degrades into the ultimate hot take of: "college is worthless because they teach things that SWEs dont do on a daily basis".

[modern ore]

TRUE cs major isn't to teach you how to be a software engineer 😹

[smoky quest]

I would nuance it more than that because, in practice, they do teach people to be software engineers since it's the most common career path from there.
However they will not teach the easy and boring skills that any engineer can learn in a day or so

[modern ore]

maybe the course specifically meant for it, but core cs courses dont teach people to be software engineers

[smoky quest]

That's not something I am gonna debate much because that's going into pedantry and that is highly dependent on the country

[modern ore]

but it may depend on the school too

[fringe sphinx]

Reasonable people disagree about this take. The two sides are: "You should learn practical things" vs "Core CS courses are foundational", I think.

[modern ore]

Disagree on which take?

[fringe sphinx]

Sorry, I think I phrased that poorly: I am saying, in response to " core cs courses dont teach people to be software engineers": There are a lot of people who disagree with that. But, there are also a lot of people who agree.

[modern ore]

Oh yea, I agree with that

I replied with a "Yes", but I have a feeling I am about to get ghosted

[fringe sphinx]

🤞🏻

[modern ore]

Any thoughts?

[true harness]

just looks like an OA?

[modern ore]

Yeah its a recruiter email, asking if I want to do the assessment this week, and I replied with a "Yes" i haven't gotten an OA yet tho

[true harness]

it says weekend

[modern ore]

Damn so I should expect it this weekend?

[true harness]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[modern ore]

@true harness have you gotten any interview for summer 2024 or any offseason

[iron shadow]

any opinions/advices

[smoky quest]

if you want to build CMSes, then you will have a hard time competing with the existing and easy to use ones, unless you work for one of these providers.
That means your target is not CMSes but things that require more skills and expertise. For instance discord uses a lot of web technologies and need talented people to work on it.

[iron shadow]

sorry if my point wasn't clear, i was basically comparing CMS with regular coding / frameworks

and how complex sites being built with CMSes are making me question my reliability or confidence on the web development career

I have no intentions on building CMEes

[fringe sphinx]

Is your question the: "As coding becomes easier, will there be fewer coding jobs"? I'm not really sure where you're coming from with the question either.

[smoky quest]

you won't be able to build discord on a CMS. There will always be a need for custom development

[spark cobalt]

So many variables for this :3 What do you think?

[iron shadow]

as building sites without coding-at-all becomes easier, with what knowledge do i be confident about my web development career as like

im aware that alot of popular sites are indeed down without CMS or by professional coders, but it doesn't narrow down the possibilities of it soon being more automatic

[spark cobalt]

• Individual engineers could do more. Less engineers to do same task as today.
• Each engineer will cost less. Companies have more flexibility to hire more, technology will grow more rapidly, requiring more engineers.
• Teams too big could also hurt rather than be helpful.

If you're building a website intended to service millions, it's more of a handicap rather than helpful.

Also, the process being automatic removes innovation (inherently goes against an industry rapidly growing such as tech)

[iron shadow]

I can't help but think of the technicalities that future CMSes might provide, let me try to explain

[spark cobalt]

Anything CMS provides will first be pioneered by professional coders (not sure how to reference this.)

[smoky quest]

The way to look at it is not that you will become obsolete but that you will have more tools to do more with less.

[iron shadow]

I really want to believe that, and I do wanna properly "co-exist" with it being all about the assistance similar to ai

[smoky quest]

I would suggest to look at how CS has evolved since the 60s or even just 10 years ago

[iron shadow]

but what's bothering me is it might soon let consumers make sites by completely automating all the tiny details and features and let them work with buttons in front of them instead of writing code

which itself is very convenient but for whatever reason is bothering me in terms of my career I think

but yeah like you guys said even those CMS would need professional developers behind them and stuff, I'm probably just overthinking

apologies for the roundabout

[spark cobalt]

Anything that means anything, they'll hire someone to build a website that fits their needs and do exactly what they envision down to the pixel.

The market you're talking about, you're not in the market for developing for anyways (think of local family restaurants, shops, etc. who actually have a need for CMS)

[brazen island]

From a business perspective this is fantastic. They can validate their idea without getting in SWE's. Once you have customers and want a decent experience you'll need devs though.

[onyx basin]

there is no such thing called python job right?
someone would need to expertise in a specific topic (data-alaysis/Web-dev Back-end/automation/game building although python wouldn't the best probably/Desktop and Mobile applications)

[harsh remnant]

Boot camps good?

[harsh remnant]

Yes, most jobs would require more than just python knowledge in the skills section.

[onyx basin]

thanks, just wanted a clarification from someone!

is 20 - 50 proposals on a job on upwork a lot?
do i apply for the job if there's 20+ or even 50+ proposals already? is it worth the connects or would I just be not noticed?

[vapid jay]

most proposals there are waste

[harsh remnant]

Idc if there’s 500. Go apply!

[onyx basin]

Ok!!

[spark cobalt]

Much of their usefulness comes with the networking rather than the knowledge provided there. For example, it's quite common to have college students teach in these bootcamps instead of people that's been or work in the industry professionally.

[harsh remnant]

I just want to be ahead of everyone else in my age group for software engineering. The skills teaching is too slow in school and not getting to the “real” coding. I’m planning on joining a bootcamp to see if it helps

[spark cobalt]

Is there something that's preventing you from exploring yourself and trying things out yourself instead of being restricted to a bootcamp curriculum?

[fringe sphinx]

I would focus on ‘doing’ rather than boot camps. Lots of small projects, etc. pick -anything- you know nothing about and try a project doing it. Don’t know Pandas? Go to kaggle.com/learn and do something with it

[true harness]

i don't think there's any benefit to a bootcamp if you're already in uni

[white relic]

ok I was just saying what those people said but they were faster ^

[fringe sphinx]

The hive mind 🙂

[gritty rivet]

I did Nucamp Backend bootcamp and it was exactly what I needed to find a great job. I also know a lot of great engineers who came out of a range of other bootcamps But in general they are totally overrated, overpriced and more often then not, straight up scams.

The ideal situation for a bootcamp in my view is that you already have a degree and professional experience but in an unrelated field. You've done a bunch of self-study and know what you want to learn, but need some extra structure and support to get through it and build a solid portfolio

If that's not you, a bootcamp is probably not what you're looking for

[spark cobalt]

Yeah, bootcamps are built to get people employment by teaching them some employable skill that may not require a super specialized degree/etc. And yeah, most are scams, or have pretty terrible curriculums, which for a beginner can be hard to tell which one is good for you.

[white relic]

There are worse things. If you've got the time to kill and can afford it without hurting for money (not most college students, but some) it's a thing to do that beats video games and the good ones will leave you with at least one solid project that you can put on a resume

[spark cobalt]

What got you interested in technology to begin with? At least from what I've seen, for many people that's gaming. Why not create a game? Or something adjacent to a game you play? (For example)

[white relic]

but there are probably more productive things you could do with that time, is the thing

[gritty rivet]

More productive and also WAY cheaper

[spark cobalt]

More fun too, if you channel your interests into your learning

[white relic]

I have sympathy for people who struggle with motivation and probably won't self-study, but will sign up for a bootcamp and apply themselves in that environment

but it is a lot to pay for the privilege

what do bootcamps even run these days? Thousands at least

[fringe sphinx]

Some of them, like bloomtech, offer some sort of placement guarantee. Bloom seems less scammy than others, but there are some disgruntled people…. Similar to unof phoenix: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/biden-cancels-37-million-in-student-loan-debt-for-former-university-of-phoenix-students/ar-AA1h117t

[gritty rivet]

Here's a nice overview of the different price-points if you really want to know: https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/15nbrup/how_much_is_coding_bootcamp_cost/

[spark cobalt]

Lots of ways to at least limit this. Typically working with others on something is a good way to stay motivated/committed to something.

@harsh remnant Possible to start on a project with fellow students/colleagues that have same interests and experience level as you to really push something and create something. Since you're in college and have the time to really explore yourself, how you work, find ways to work with yourself to get things done 🙂

[vapid jay]

Yes

[vapid jay]

Did you answer "Definitely" to "have you read it?" or to the other question?

If you read the book and are recommending it so much to somebody who said they did not see its applicability to creating CRUD apps, can you give me an example of where you would use, in typical development, the following topics of the book, which take a long time to master and are a time investment which could be spent elsewhere?

The Rabin-Karp algorithm
The Knuth-Morris-Pratt algorithm
NP-completeness and reducibility
The Floyd-Warshall algorithm
The Ford-Fulkerson method

[vapid jay]

This is an interesting comment. Are you saying that we get more representation here from people who are actually not Senior Engineers? That would be an interesting correlation between "says something with such strength" and "hasn't got all that much experience after all". I say this not having experience myself but being of course easily influenced by these first opinions I hear and impressed by the level of conviction with which they are expressed...

[gritty rivet]

Yes, I think that's right. So for most questions, strangers on the Internet are not a reliable source.

[fringe sphinx]

That was not the point I was making. I was responding to the (implied) suggestion that professional work environments are hostile and filled with arrogant engineers. My point is simply; online communities are not representative of real world personalities or interactions.

[fringe sphinx]

In this channel, people are stating their opinion and experience. Careers is a highly subjective area, so we certainly have strong opinions based on -our- experience, and all we can do is share -our- perspective so that people can make a more informed decision.

It might be helpful, but exhausting, to qualify all of our posts with our personal CV. There are quite a few seniors who post in this channel: I’ve been working professionally for about 30 years, in a variety of roles. I’ve worked in big and small tech, run my own company for many years, done consulting, etc, and this qualifies me for nothing and there’s nothing I claim to be an expert at.

[balmy spade]

"filled with arrogant engineers". I've run into a good share of arrogance in the workplace. Working for a few decades, you're going to find that. On the other hand "arrogant engineer" strikes me as someone who is "confident enough to fail" (as we say where I work). Limited time and limited resources brings those who will say exactly what they think is correct to the forefront in the office. They're the loudest voice, usually, because they aren't afraid to be wrong. It is arrogance, in a way. At the same time, though, they are often the first to listen to alternatives. Being willing to be wrong doesn't make being wrong any more fun when it happens. ;)

The value of this channel is difficult to describe. From inexperienced to experienced, you have it all. Both are educational to learn from. The trick, as pointed out, is to understand these are all just opinions. It's on the reader to figure out how the opinions will color and shape any decisions.

[smoky quest]

that's just an appeal to extremes and bad rhetoric.
It's not because you don't use Floyd-Warshall every day in your job that a book about introduction to algorithms will be useless or not useful to your career, even for CRUD apps

[smoky quest]

I am pretty sure you could claim some expertise in a few areas 😉
However while claims can be backed with years of experiences, we should also be careful to not fall in the trap of arguments by authority.

[placid raptor]

I am currently taking As level math, chemistry, physics, english and A level CS as subjects. I need to take chem to get into varsity for engineering but its so bad ong. I cant remember shit 💀

Anyway, I don't know about majoring in CS, as I am afraid that the theory will be too much, compared to the code/practical/mathematics.

[true harness]

are you asking a question about something?

[peak halo]

compared to the code/practical/mathematics
if you're good with math, pure CS theory won't be arduous for you.

[placid raptor]

Thanks for the input. I'm going to check how it goes with the subject itself before making any drastic decisions. Im wondering if you know of any other more practical oriented computer/IT majors? Im doing chem only to keep the possibility of electronic engineering, but I would like to drop it if i can find a better option

[placid raptor]

No

[peak halo]

I think that "applied vs theory" is perceived as more of a dichotomy than it really is. but programs that position themselves as "more practical than CS" impart less earning potential than having a CS degree.

[smoky quest]

Note also that even in the more abstract of CS, because it's grounded in some application (ex: compression), the theory is a lot more palatable and engaging because you can see the goal and how it could be used

[placid raptor]

Cool, thanks guys. Is it generally worth it to do a masters degree in CS?

[peak halo]

if you want to be a software engineer, it might not be worth the years of missed income. If you want to go into cybersecurity or AI, it might be the minimum necessary to get into the field.

(he says, having just dropped out of grad school)

[fringe sphinx]

I got mine, part-time while working. I believe it certainly helped me become a better engineer. It's impossible to quantify what "worth it" means, of course.

[smoky quest]

it's a nice opportunity to dive deeper in some topics and give you a head start.
It's also quite useful in more advanced areas like AI/ML/DS

[placid raptor]

I see, thanks. I didn't consider doing it part time before. I think the thing that's holding me back the most is missing out on income and experience (impatience). At least i have lots more time to think about it

[smoky quest]

you are going to have 40 years to work. I wouldn't be in such a hurry if you have the opportunity to learn more with a masters 😉

[true harness]

it's only 2 years of income, and you would start at a higher salary afterwards

[placid raptor]

Wow, only 2 years for a masters in CS? W

[peak halo]

well, two years in addition to the four for the bachelors

[placid raptor]

Oh, that checks out 😔

[true harness]

ideally it's 2 full time if you follow a normal schedule and take off in the summer. at least in the US

[placid raptor]

Any tips on how I can prepare myself before uni? I try to upload most of my projects (publicly) to GitHub, but I dont know if there is a better way for me to build up my "resume" at this time. I would enjoy freelancing, but idk how possible that is, considering im 15.

[peak halo]

you probably won't be able to find any freelancing gigs. your time would be better spent focusing on school, and on math especially.

[spark cobalt]

I'd spend time to help maximize your college experience. That is, exploring the tech world (Python is a great language to explore the different fields), and when you go into college you'll have clear goals.

[placid raptor]

I like to program in my free time (for example, I have holiday now), but I feel like I spend so much time on useless proof of concept projects because I dont know what to do

[peak halo]

projects that are useless once they are finished are not necessarily pointless to create.

if they further your understanding, they are very pointful.

[placid raptor]

I'm learning rust at the moment. (Well kinda, I had to take a break from the annoying compiler) The biggest problem I found is that I have no reason to use rust right now. When I start coding something im like "why did I not just do this in python, it would've been so much better, I have more than 4 bits of memory at my disposal"

[dusky gazelle]

its clear that you have had some personal events happen, maybe coworkers who have irritated you, that have left a bad taste in your mouth for anything to do with "captial D Design Patterns" and "Coding Principles", and you're projecting it at me in this conversation.

I have not been telling you that you need to namedrop design pattern names to sound impressive, or to imply superiority over your coworkers because you know the names and they don't, or that every piece of code you write needs to be from an official design pattern

[fringe sphinx]

As long as you're learning new things every day / week / month, you'll be far ahead of the game. Many people don't start programming until freshman year of college. Do small projects now, things that you can finish in your free time that teach you anything new. Ever done a web site? Try Django. Ever worked with data? Check out kaggle.com/learn. Ever written a game? Check out a pygame project. etc

[hallow hill]

Guys I have 4 months of python basics what should I focus any tips ? So I can start get some. Work

[placid raptor]

Thanks for advice guys imma go sleep

[dusky gazelle]

It is good to learn design patterns because you get better at design.

when you study philosophy, is your approach also "no one should have to learn the names of philosophies or their histories or common philosophical patterns or how they relate to each other if they want to become the best at philosophy"?

likewise do you have an aversion to people memorizing common patterns in algorithms and data structures? Or formal computer science classifications, like finite state machines, cellular automata, modus ponens, etc.?

it's edifying to your own mind and useful to every other professional on your team to have a set of formal terminology to refer to all this stuff

[smoky quest]

also to note that patterns are tools. They have a specific context where they are helpful and they are helpful for specific reasons.
One should not attempt at being performative because it shows they would not understand when and where to use their tools

[balmy spade]

I particularly enjoy how Ned says it. Design patterns are descriptive, not prescriptive.

[dusky gazelle]

just read back and saw this message. It's ironic. You're aware of this phenomenon and have admitted to belonging to the inexperienced section of the sample size, yet you allow yourself to feel incredulous to the idea that something as subtle as replacing a comments with functions marks the difference between professionals and amateurs, and are baffled that someone could believe it with conviction.

[modern ore]

What do you mean real coding ,and why would you do bootcamp to code crud and frontend projects 😹

[edgy sun]

Does anyone need linkedin premium for 2 months??
if yes, text me privately!!

[faint spire]

can one do coding and do reasonably good money as a side job?

[dusky gazelle]

spend your free time working on personal projects. don't expect to get good by taking university classes

most cs students dont even do personal projects, they just do coursework and occasionally watch programming youtube videos / tik toks

skills "teaching" is not sufficient, you need skills practice.

[dusky gazelle]

really hard to do if you're a jr

freelance mostly only works for people who have had years of experience and a resume that speaks for them.

Otherwise most of the side projects you'll be doing will be for friends and families, portfolio sites for your artist friend, etc.

or grinding for pennies on upwork

[steel kindle]

Yeah classes don’t really cover actual engineering concepts, which is the skill that’s in demand.

You need to do projects, especially projects with other people.

[modern ore]

For juniors imo, they just look if you have problem solving skills and can code and know cs fundementals 🤔

[steel kindle]

Depends on the job I suppose then

[modern ore]

mostly for big tech (imo)

[steel kindle]

I know at my company they look for problem solving skills and CS fundamentals, but they also want to make sure you can work in a team, and have a grasp on certain design principles.

[modern ore]

what company is this, I feel like a lot of the time, they just throw you in a random team. unless there is like a team matching goin on

[steel kindle]

I mean I’m not going to dox myself, but it’s a large tech company.

And yeah interviews are team specific, however we don’t really hire juniors that weren’t interns.

[modern ore]

was there a intern team matching?

[steel kindle]

Yeah my old manager interviewed me

[modern ore]

anything specific asked in the interiew? (like technical portion)

[steel kindle]

A lot of OO design, not really any programming.

It’s role specific, for my role that was a lot more important than coding

[dusky gazelle]

what is your role? architect?

[steel kindle]

SDE, but I work with an almost entirely proprietary toolset, along with both languages being proprietary.

[dusky gazelle]

cool

proprietary languages at a large tech company. thats cool

[steel kindle]

They basically just had us design an app to track a boxing league at a high level

[modern ore]

Object Oriented Design? Isn't that CS fundementals 🤔

[steel kindle]

It’s interesting, and a pita at times since there’s not much documentation.

[steel kindle]

Yes, although we go a bit in depth than standard UML diagrams

It’s more general engineering skills I’d say.

[modern ore]

Yea maybe the UML diagrams, but it mostly sounds like cs fundementals. Also I dont think most companies are asking sys design to interns/juniors

and the only companies Ik that do team dependant stuff is niche companies like tesla, apple, etc

[steel kindle]

No no, it’s definitely not system design. It’s basically UML + some PM and Testing stuff.

[steel kindle]

I’d say we’re niche, we have 1 product set.

[modern ore]

I am not saying UML diagram is system design, but in interviews, imo are catogrized as it.

[summer roost]

CS grads tend to graduate with virtually no OO design skills. Developing those skills takes a lot of practice. I don't think people tend to develop them much at all in a classroom setting.

[steel kindle]

Ah ok, fair. Then yeah I guess we do system design questions in our internship interviews.

[modern ore]

I agree, but my original point was cs fundementals 🤔

[summer roost]

well, my point is that they're not CS fundamentals

if they were, CS grads would have them

clearly they're not fundamental to a computer science degree if you don't have them at the end of a computer science degree 😄

[steel kindle]

Yeah we talked about it for like 2 lectures

I was expecting a coding interview and they just dropped OO design on me

[summer roost]

I think you develop those skills mostly by reading other people's code. The people who've done open source stuff tend to have much better developed OO design skills than the people who've only done classroom assignments and projects

[steel kindle]

Yeah I think it’s a practice thing.

[modern ore]

What do you mean you dont have them at teh end of cs degrees

[steel kindle]

Most people don’t have great oo design skills at the end of a degree I think

[summer roost]

yep, that's exactly what I mean

[modern ore]

even at my school, they huge chunk of early cs courses include ood design even 🤔

[steel kindle]

It’s not super intuitive and generally not covered heavily

[modern ore]

Isn't it true, that a lot of people can't code properly when they get out of cs degrees

[steel kindle]

Yeah it’s obviously talked about, you just don’t go that in depth.

[summer roost]

yes, for different values of "a lot"

[modern ore]

I mean you can't say one thing isn't fundemental if a lot of people dont remember it after the degree

[steel kindle]

Well it’s typically not covered in much depth

[summer roost]

I'd say that maybe 5% or 10% of people who graduate with a CS degree can't complete simple algorithms tasks in an interview setting - which is "a lot" in terms of the overall quality of CS programs, but is much smaller than the ~80% or ~90% of CS graduates who've never designed and maintained an OOP system over a period of years

[spark cobalt]

It's just lack of practice and kinda extends to other majors too. People go in and study theory, and are unable to put theory to practice.

[steel kindle]

I mean in my classes we just discussed how you would organize x classes and what methods and attributes they would need.

[modern ore]

Personally, at my course, it was heavily exposed and a lot of projects included it, but yea it school dependant, but its common to have a course for it, or taught as part of another course

[spark cobalt]

It's not that the people are ass or something, it's just a false perception they have about CS major and what role it plays for their own value as a software engineer.

[steel kindle]

Yeah it’s covered but usually at a relatively trivial level, school projects don’t tend to be too complex. The code base I am working in has ~60,000 classes.

[modern ore]

Same with programming languages 🤔 Thats up for you to get better at

They teach you basic programming syntax

[steel kindle]

Right but it’s easier to get better at programming on your own, I’d even argue that in most situations where you’re using OO principals it’s the easier part.

[summer roost]

the course teaches you practically nothing about how to design real world systems. Or at least, that seems to be the case for the version of that course that most people take

[modern ore]

We can agree to disagree on that, but still don't refute my point it's cs fundemental 😹

[steel kindle]

Also we covered programming languages decently in depth tbh

[summer roost]

you learn the names of a lot of design patterns, but you don't study good ways and bad ways to design a system, or the tradeoffs between putting more or less state in a particular class, etc

[modern ore]

Like most cs majors won't even know how to do concurrency/mutlithreading even if it's part of cs fundementals

But again it doesn't refute my main point

[steel kindle]

Or building for upgradability, we also have to consider how the classes will be handled by the DB and what not

[summer roost]

I'd still say that more CS grads will have a good handle on multithreading than a good handle on OOP design

[steel kindle]

I mean that’s part of every operating systems course

[modern ore]

LOL I DISAGREE on this

[summer roost]

I'm not sure how to refute that point any more thoroughly than I have, honestly. If the majority of people who graduate from a CS program don't have a particular skill, I don't see how you could argue that the skill is "fundamental", regardless of whether there's a course that talks about it

[summer roost]

ok. You most likely don't have OOP design skills yet, and you most likely do have a good handle on multithreading.

[modern ore]

personally, I dont. 🤷‍♀️

[steel kindle]

It’s also not something you need to know to program tbf, which I think would make it not fundamental

[summer roost]

don't have a good handle on multithreading?

[modern ore]

nope, I am bad at both. my school doesnt even provide OS as a course

[summer roost]

You'll probably look back on this conversation in about a decade, and realize that the amount you still had to learn about multithreading is much, much smaller than the amount that you still had to learn about OOP design

in large part because it's just a far more involved topic

[steel kindle]

That’s kind of wild they don’t offer it.

[summer roost]

I think you could spend 2 years of a 4 year degree on OOP design and still graduate with weak OOP design skills. Developing those skills requires building real systems.

[modern ore]

Yea, I was planning on going through OStep soon*

[steel kindle]

Yeah, the complexity in an actual product makes it almost a completely different thing, there are many more factors to consider.

[summer roost]

and there aren't right and wrong answers, like there are in a course. There's advantages and disadvantages, pros and cons and tradeoffs.

a given design will make one thing easier but a different thing harder.

[steel kindle]

Yup, a lot of it still seems pretty arbitrary to me, but I’m getting better.

[modern ore]

Okay, I go back on everything i said

😹 im wrong, my school particularly, you have to take a seperate corse thats an elective

but my school doesnt even offer OS either, mfs said multithreading when xyz and that was the end of it in a non os related class

[steel kindle]

OS courses cover a lot of fundamentals imo

[summer roost]

I honestly think OOP design is a skill that you cannot develop in a classroom setting. It's like learning to draw by reading books about perspective and shading. You'll learn some of the concepts, but you won't have developed any skill at applying them

[steel kindle]

I think that’s why they emphasize team skills so much at this company, between OOD and the proprietary lands you will be learning a ton from more senior engineers since we don’t really have stack overflow or anything to reference.

[summer roost]

and there's a massive difference between being able to regurgitate a textbook definition of perspective, and having done enough drawings of your own that you can actually apply the techniques intuitively

[modern ore]

why mfs askin kruskal with heap on a OA for cloud computing swe intern role

😹

[steel kindle]

This should’ve been my giveaway that you are still a student. You vastly underestimate the importance of being able to work well in a team. That’s probably one of, if not the most sought after traits in juniors.

[spark cobalt]

I love my team :3

[steel kindle]

Same, although I got moved so I only know two of them currently.

[spark cobalt]

Awww, have been working with my peeps for like 6 months now. We all got each others backs it's really nice

[steel kindle]

I worked with my new manager when I was an intern, but my team went through a reorg and she got promoted

[modern ore]

I mean, I am talking from a prespective of new grads and interns. And from what I've heard from interview processes for tons of companies, they genuinely just throw a leetcode question, and rarely system design. then there are few companies, like i mentioned, telsa, apple, and specific roles where its all team dependant

[steel kindle]

The leetcode is a p/f thing for the most part though

[modern ore]

p/f?

[steel kindle]

Pass/Fail. It’s mostly just checking a box.

[spark cobalt]

Imo Leetcode isn't really about the question itself, but how you approach problems in general. Leetcode is just a standardized way to measure how you solve problems.

[modern ore]

maybe few years ago, idk if thats true today 😹

[steel kindle]

Yup, they want to see if you had a consistent approach it seems.

[modern ore]

Wait are you saying pass/fail if you can solve algo questions or not?

[steel kindle]

It absolutely is lol, writing code is the easy part of software engineering, they want to make sure you can do that before they use resources seeing if they want to hire you.

[steel kindle]

Like wilder said, it’s not entirely about solving, more about the problem solving skills.

[modern ore]

Aye man, good luck coming up with dp on tree solution that passes all the test cases on the spot to write crud dashboard as a intern 😹

[steel kindle]

Doesn’t that fact that you would almost never have to do that kind of prove that it’s not all they’re looking at.

[modern ore]

Yeah true, if you have good exp, and if you fail on the OAs, you can still pass

[spark cobalt]

+1 on writing code is the easy part of software engineering. Basically the language you use to write out the solution you found, your code writing ability is fundamental, but it's not fundamental to your problem solving capabilities, which is what you're fundamentally paid to do.

[steel kindle]

Like I said, we didn’t even have a programming test, it was mostly design.

[summer roost]

I don't know why people act as though DP is some big scary thing. It's literally just caching - compute a thing once, save the results for later

[modern ore]

I am talking about generally

[steel kindle]

Yeah, and the general problem solving skills are what’ll really set you apart as a candidate.

[modern ore]

Given that most people use python, and if the dp question is more than 1 dimension, you will most likely have to write bottom up specially in hacekrrank. I can guarantee the dp questions aren't as trivial as you're makin it out to be 😹

[steel kindle]

Also never underestimate how important being a likable person is.

[summer roost]

companies don't tend to ask questions that require bottom-up DP, especially to juniors.

[modern ore]

How do you show you're a likeable person before interview 🤔

[steel kindle]

You do it in the interview

[modern ore]

How do you get an interview without passing Oas 🤔

[steel kindle]

You pass the OAs? You can’t be just completely missing the solution on OAs and expect to get an interview.

[modern ore]

in python specifically, its hard for it to pass, then you have to switch to another language to C++ 😭 for (hackerrank)

[summer roost]

ok, so - don't use hackerrank? Or don't do those problems in Python? Or switch from recursive algorithms to iterative ones?

[modern ore]

and you'd be lucky if there aren't more optimizaiton requred in the dp problem

[summer roost]

It really don't matter much anyway - like I said, you're unlikely to be asked those sorts of questions for most jobs.

[steel kindle]

Most OA questions are pretty easy tbh, like a LC medium at worst for entry level positions.

[modern ore]

typically Oas are hackerrank, unless some companies do like GCA codesignal which tend to be easier

[summer roost]

I think you're both basically right about what companies are looking for in juniors. I think they're looking for two main things, above all else:

• Does this person seem like they can learn the things I want them to learn
• Does this person seem like someone I'd like working with for the next 12 weeks

[steel kindle]

Damn, only 12 weeks?

[summer roost]

depends on the internship, but - yeah, lots are in the 12 week range

that's 3 months, which is a pretty typical internship length

[steel kindle]

Oh internship, not full time, ic

[modern ore]

we can do interviewing for both new grad and interns fresh outta college

[summer roost]

oh - yeah, I switched gears midway through writing that

[steel kindle]

I mean the interviews seem pretty similar for the most part, although I didn’t interview at any large tech companies for entry level roles.

[summer roost]

anyway, "can they learn and will I enjoy teaching them" is the biggest part of what they'll consider, I think.

[modern ore]

I mean the questions asked aren't as trivial, which was what i was sayin earlier

[steel kindle]

I suppose? I only had a handful that were difficult.

[modern ore]

dp on tree isn't trivial, most ppl dont know how to reroot trees 😹

[summer roost]

It would not be typical to be asked questions requiring bottom-up DP in OAs

if you're getting asked that, you're applying to atypical companies

[modern ore]

I guess yea

[steel kindle]

I remember roblox had one question about train scheduling and the length of time it would take to move a number of passengers, that one was hard.

[modern ore]

OA?

[summer roost]

maybe ones with a lot more than the normal amount of competition for the roles, or maybe ones that expect the job to require much better algorithms skills than the average entry level job would

[steel kindle]

Yeah. It might not have been Roblox tbh, but it was a pretty high paying tech company.

[modern ore]

even if you get good score for roblox OA, mfs will screen you based if you go to topp uni and or multiple big tech on your sht

[steel kindle]

Roblox also had some weird game thing that was just general problem solving. You had to build vehicles to get over obstacles and shit.

[steel kindle]

Right, because having the experience of working at tech companies is super valuable, the coding is just a requirement.

From my understanding non-tech companies don’t tend to organize their teams the same way tech companies do

[modern ore]

No point of OAs if you just screen based on university and or experience

[steel kindle]

Sure there is, you cut out the people who fail it for much cheaper than interviewing them.

[modern ore]

not if they are still getting interviews with "fail" scores

[steel kindle]

Interviewing can be super expensive, especially if you’re flying candidates out.

[summer roost]

eh, "it depends". That might be true, but people might also be surprised by what is and isn't a tech company. Walmart is a tech company and Comcast isn't, from that point of view

[modern ore]

Most of them are virtual now, but I get your point 🤔

[steel kindle]

Absolutely, and yeah it definitely varies from company to company.

[steel kindle]

Yeah, and it’s still expensive, but they’re also not all virtual for final round interviews. We fly candidates in I believe.

I mean before you make a massive investment in someone it’s not a terrible idea to meet them physically.

[modern ore]

Yeah but I am saying most,

[summer roost]

the biggest part of the difference is probably based on whether the tech workers are seen as an expense, or a method for generating profits. Teams and corporate structures will vary a lot depending on whether SWEs are seen as a profit center or a cost center

[steel kindle]

Yes that’s actually a good point, I’ve heard it worded like that before.

[modern ore]

@summer roost i need to ask your thoughts on something 🙂

[steel kindle]

If the SWEs are a cost center organization is often not as agile.

[summer roost]

go for it

[summer roost]

and tasks tend to be more constrained. There's tighter deliverables that can't slip, because delivering something bad on schedule might be preferred over taking the time to get it right

[modern ore]

So, if you know about GHC, there was a huge drama going on. 30% male showed up for it, and women aren't happy that they are there. They had petition to ban them. And there are videos on crowds trying to give recruiters their resume, etc. What are your thoughts on that

[summer roost]

I have no idea what GHC is. The first time I saw it mentioned anywhere was yesterday, and it was in a similar "what do people think about GHC" question, and I still don't know what it is 😄

[modern ore]

"The Grace Hopper Celebration of Women in Computing is a series of conferences designed to bring the research and career interests of women in computing to the forefront. " it has like a "career fair" spot where you can get interviewed on the spots for some companies, and i heard some companies have job slots for just from the event. It's targeted towards NB and women but men can still attend. its huge

[summer roost]

ah, ok. I know it as "Grace Hopper", I've just not seen the "GHC" acronym before

still, I have no particular thoughts about whatever controversy is happening

[modern ore]

alright 😹 I thought i coudl get your opinion on it 😭

[summer roost]

I just don't have one

[modern ore]

😭

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F7DnoLkXIAAO1tb?format=jpg&name=large here is the petition img it got banned apparently

[summer roost]

And there are videos on crowds trying to give recruiters their resume
Sounds like people overestimated the value of the career fair, I guess.

[steel kindle]

I applied to get a ticket to GHC lol

[modern ore]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1089274846187360271/1157177606689542194/image.png?ex=6518faa0&is=6517a920&hm=757fdab7328c3d4a11a553d0db406f5324660c4330ae00da7cd2a104d2c1f528&

[modern ore]

this year? 💀 Also aren't you a guy?

[steel kindle]

No, 2 years ago I think, maybe last year. And yes I am.

[modern ore]

Oh, did you end up going?

[steel kindle]

No I ended up having a job interview the same weekend I think

[modern ore]

😮 Did you want to go as ally or for job opportunity?

[steel kindle]

Well, the Monday after and I had to fly to Arizona for it.

[modern ore]

damn sounds dope

[steel kindle]

I just wanted to go lol

[modern ore]

sheesh, you just wanted to pay 1k just to attend?

[steel kindle]

Nah it was paid for, that’s why I had to apply.

[modern ore]

oh, the sponsorship

Dont you have to pay like extra 600? And you have to pay flight ticket on top of that?

[steel kindle]

No, it was paid for.

[modern ore]

Damn everything orz

[steel kindle]

Yes

[modern ore]

I thought the sponsorships were limited

[steel kindle]

Pretty sure it was through my school

[summer roost]

It's pretty common for organizations to send a handful of people to large conferences like Grace Hopper

[steel kindle]

^ they do it for multiple conferences

[modern ore]

Yeah, but the spots are limited no?

[steel kindle]

Yes, that’s why I had to apply

[modern ore]

yeeeah

[frosty wren]

Halfway through my bachelors degree in Cognitive Science when Christmas arrives.
So far my Uni courses have included:

• 1 Python class
• 2 Java classes

I am very keen on working with Python once I'm done with my bachelors degree.
I love so many things about Python!

Probably time to start building a "project resume" to show future employers.

So, a few questions regarding this:
1: I'm thinking such a resume should definetely include some Machine Learning stuff? (That being said: I'm not at all sure that I actually want to work with ML...). Do you guys agree?

2: Any other ideas to what such a project resume would benefit from including?
I have the impression that many employers are looking for Python programmers who knows specific "packages" such as Pandas. Do you guys agree that this is correct?

Also, final question:
3: Will it be "good enough" to follow guides such as this one (https://www.projectpro.io/article/fake-news-detection-project/854) to create a project, and then add this to the project resume? Or do I have to come up with all ideas/code and implementations myself? I feel like this would be a very daunting task, especially with my coding skills as of now...

Thanks in advance for all replies!
Love this Python server. So many kind and informative people; much appreciated!

[brave swallow]

if you're copying an open sourced project for your resume its fine as long as you understand that project well because your employer might ask you things regarding your project and another good thing to work at is learning version control like github for your resume

[spark cobalt]

Language/packages is just a tool to solve a specific type of problem you'll specialize in. If you have ML on your resume, you're showing your expertise in solving ML related problems, not your ability to use Python in every use case.

So:

1. Unless you plan to actually specialize in ML, then I wouldn't do this.
2. If you found an area of tech to specialize in, then you will find common languages and packages that are used in that area. It's not necessarily pandas.
3. You will be grilled in questions regarding system design choices... because you never made those choices, you just copied the choices blindly.

Also the fake news detection is a really really common project. People have seen it multiple times before. You end up being every other candidate with projects stolen from the internet that everyone's done before. Not really a good way to stand out.

[frosty wren]

wdym?

Learning how to use github (committing/pushing updates and so on?)

Sorry if my question is dumb... 🥶

[spark cobalt]

You should not be copying projects. If you need to copy to get a project done, you are not ready for a job.

[brave swallow]

yes and while you're doing your projects you can put it in your github so you'll have a github link on your resume

[spark cobalt]

But yes, you should learn standard GitHub practices and what Sam said.

[brave swallow]

yes sorry that was my bad

also for wider network you can build your linkedin profile as well

[frosty wren]

Hmm ok

So then I'm not really sure where to start tbh.

Would it be OK to for example do this:
I have an idea for a chatbot which is kinda specific (a chatbot pretending to be/responding in the style of a famous norwegian author).

I would have no idea where to start to i.e. train such a chatbot on the dataset of books/articles etc. from this author, so for this I would need to use various guides.

Would also need to use guides to structure my program and this kinda stuff.

But, the IDEA would 1) be more unique (?) and 2) I am not following a specific website guide step-by-step.

Is this a better idea?

[spark cobalt]

What is your educational background? And where you at in the world (country)?

[frosty wren]

Located in Norway.

Just basic "normal" 13 years of school in Norway + my now half-finished bachelors in Cognitive Science.
So when actually applying for jobs, I'd have a bachelors in Cognitive Science.

[spark cobalt]

What do you believe an ML engineer does day to day? What skills/knowledge (theoretical + practical) they use day to day?

[frosty wren]

Probably a whole lot of math which Im not good at at all......

[spark cobalt]

How do you plan to show (or prove) your mathematical expertise? (This is most commonly done with a degree, many times a Masters, in CS with concentration of ML/AI or Math or something)

[frosty wren]

Have been to a few things where companies present their businesses to Uni students.

Spoke to a few businesses where they basically said something along the lines of:

• The best coders are very intelligent - but, not always great salesmen.
• Our company needs people that can understand what the programmers are able to offer clients but who are also able to meet said client and "close the deal"

Im pretty sure such a role is better suited for me than being an actual "full on programmer".....

Any ideas regarding this?

[brave swallow]

they basically want people who has great communication skills

that will bridge programmers and clients while making great profit. In a nutshell

[frosty wren]

exactly

[spark cobalt]

Our company needs people that can understand what the programmers are able to offer clients but who are also able to meet said client and "close the deal"

This is not a software engineer role. More on lines of customer engineer/customer support engineer.

[frosty wren]

I believe they referred to this role as a "team leader meets salesman" but i dont remember the exact terms they used

[spark cobalt]

Maybe like a product manager. But that's not a software engineer, nor do they do software engineering.

The best coders are very intelligent - but, not always great salesmen.

I would say this is because it's rarely a coder's job to be a salesman to begin with.

[frosty wren]

I'm quite old for doing a bachelors (turn 30 in October). Have 10 years of various customer service/sales experience on my resume.
Then I figured out I wanted a PROPER job, so I started the bachelors.

I figured this sales experience might come in handy for this latter option we´re discussing

[brave swallow]

maybe after some time in software engineering you get promoted to project manager

but what do you really want? to be a programmer or sales related

[frosty wren]

Sales related - if the salary is good enough...

[spark cobalt]

Do note, you have a degree in something completely unrelated to software engineering. How are you going to leverage your degree? What was the intention of doing this degree to begin with?

I can only really give input in SWE part of the world.

[frosty wren]

Most people from my degree end up working with coding as far as I can tell from speaking to other students and profs.

My degree is structured in a way so that the last year, we choose a line of specialization (informatics, information science or philosphy).
And there we can kinda "tailor" our competance.

Im planning on doing information science-direction

https://www.uib.no/en/studies/BASV-KOGNI

[true harness]

I heard they were actually quite fun. also they apparently work better compared to normal coding questions, at least according to Roblox, heh

[tropic cargo]

Hey guys i just wna ask a general question so if any expert can answer it may be better for me so i wan ask that i am planning to master python in 6 moths my plan is to do every problem that is related to concept and i just wna ask is it possible to master python can i get a job after mastering python ? i am planning to learn devops after mastering python plz answer this just wna clear my doubts thanks

[ivory compass]

In terms of Python, what have you guys found pays the most , disregarding quants or whatever

[true harness]

it depends on your starting point. but probably not in 6 months

[ivory compass]

It's all well and good learning and mastering Python but its what you can bring to the table of an employer that matters if you plan to get yourself a job. Try to think from their perspective

[white relic]

The highest paying Python jobs are the ones that combine programming ability with some valuable (non-programming) skill/specialization.
Data science being probably the best example

[ivory compass]

I'm thinking of it from a non-degree perspective. I am looking at cloud computing for example as I see someone at work create all the infrastructure at low cost using kubernetes and microservices. But I wanted to know if something along those lines are what brings the big bucks

[white relic]

if you're working with "just Python", you may stumble in to a specialty by luck but you probably won't be in the running for the highly paid jobs

[ivory compass]

I dont want to be pigeonholed into frontend hell as I dont see much money

[tropic cargo]

so what is the most paying skill that can be learn after having hands on python ?

[ivory compass]

Most would be quants but from a non-degree perspective I am not sure

[white relic]

Best way to find out would be to look for job listings in your area that mention Python and don't require a degree

[near ocean]

Youre not going to go far without a degree or two, why the "non-degree perspective"?

[ivory compass]

Some genuinely do require a degree to even be taken remotely seriously like data science and quants

with software as long as you have the experience you can at least get interviews

[near ocean]

Getting experience would be hard without a degree

[ivory compass]

I already got the experience but from my perspective when I look at the business from work I notice there are key players and wonder if those roles pay the most considering their importance and impact on the business

its about knowing where to shift more permeanantly in my career which is why I asked about cloud and such. Some people change from what they started out as

[white relic]

if you want to make your career more profitable and more secure, the surest way to do that for most non-degree-having people is probably to get a degree

if that's not an option, well, it leaves a lot more up to personal motivation and luck

I get paid well for my area (if not what many probably think of as top end salary) have a BS and my lack of a PhD is a liability in my field if I wanted to get paid more at this point.

Infrastructure/devops is not like that. But also not as profitable.

[fringe sphinx]

I’ve worked with many people in these types of roles. (And, many CS majors (and similar) don’t become SWEs. ) these roles are often called ‘sales engineering’ or ‘pre sales’. There are also corporate sales engineers (adjacent to engineering), professional services (consultants) and Developer Relations (devrel). These can be very well paying jobs which require both people skills, good organizational ability, and a technical inclination (not purely technical, but you need to bridge the customers needs to your products/solutions).

[ivory compass]

The problem with getting a degree is that from the employer's perspective, they have this kid with a cs degree (3/4 years) vs someone who has dealt with the problems that they have and knows how to solve it due to their 3/4 years of experience. Who are they going to hire? Someone good with theoreticals or someone with a good track record of doing the job? That's how I feel

[true harness]

that's sort of a false dichotomy though. it's very very difficult to get any experience without a degree

[ivory compass]

For jobs that require a degree I completely get it

[white relic]

Think about where you want to be in 6 more years: will the next prospective employer pick the candidate with a decade of experience and no degree, or a decade of experience who got a degree along the way?

[ivory compass]

I think at that point it depends on their track record and the quality of their experience as opposed to a degree they have now long forgotten about, if you get what Im saying

Ok I ask this, is there anything you see in your job that uses your cs degree knowledge? Because what I am seeing is get good at language get good at framework/tool

[white relic]

my degree isn't in CS

[frosty wren]

Thanks for the reply.

So basically - if we are to explain this to me like im 5... - we can summarize it like this?

• Requires more people skills
• Organizational ability
• less actual coding abilities

Agree?

And if you agree:

What subjects/classes do you think would be usefull to take at my uni (outside of my Cognitive Science degree) to obtain such a position as we discussed?

Subject relating to management? And what else?

Thanks in advance for any reply

[white relic]

It's very likely someone else could advise you more specifically and accurately, but my understanding is that frameworks and tools are great to know but they change constantly and therefore employers do care about having a grasp of the fundamentals.

@vapid jay This is #career-advice , for Python help see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[true harness]

i'm a bit confused. is there no equivalent to computer science at your school?

[frosty wren]

Wdym?

[true harness]

what is "cognitive science"? is there no better major for SWE? 🤔

[frosty wren]

https://www.uib.no/en/studies/BASV-KOGNI

The other ones (like informatics, etc) require «math points» from high school/norwegian hs equivalent - which I don’t have

The Cognitive Science bachelor that I’m doing now is very popular at my Uni, and I believe that 90-95% of all the graduates end up working in IT

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, more or less. DevRel is probably the most technically demanding role of the bunch. Search YouTube for it and you’ll find some great explanations of the job. But all of them require varying skills. What should you know? As any engineer, you should have a broad knowledge of systems things (Linux/scripting, cloud services, networking, security) as this comes up often when planning implementations. See this stuff for example: https://missing.csail.mit.edu

[fringe sphinx]

But, fundamentally; ime, these roles all require people skills: you’ll be trained in your companies products, meet with many customers, hear their problems, and have technical conversations to help them understand and plan and decide how to use your companies products & services. You’d be paired with a salesperson / account manager who handles the sales side of things (pre sales/sales engineers don’t worry about pricing/quoting/sealing the deal).

For many people, this is a more rewarding and enjoyable role than SWEing: constantly learning and interacting and helping different customers, solving new problems, etc

[frosty wren]

This is my impression as well, based on conversations with different people

Thanks a lot, @fringe sphinx

And you dont have any particular input on subjects to get?

Leader/sales subjects etc

[fringe sphinx]

For technical subjects, see link above. Generally: systems, cloud, security, networking, etc. for sales stuff? I dunno, reading general business stuff is probably helpful. I’ve read a lot of various biographies (ie Steve Jobs), and various businessy books

The broader point is emphasize diversity not specialization. Keep learning stuff you know nothing about.

[frosty wren]

Thanks a lot!
Much, much appreciated💪💪

[steel kindle]

They were fun Lol

Surprisingly difficult too actually

[true harness]

oh? did you find them more interesting than just coding?

[steel kindle]

Yeah, I mean they were basically puzzles/games

[solemn lynx]

Someone can suggest me what language i preffer to sove dsa on leetcode....Can i go with java ?

[near ocean]

Youre asking about a language to use in a Python server, what do you think the answer would be?

[solemn lynx]

ya i know emotionaaly the answer is python

but what is best ?

[near ocean]

Whats best is what you know better

[modern ore]

stick to python Why would you use java for leetcode 😹

C++ or Python

[digital fjord]

leetcode is basic enough that you can use any language pretty much. Java is fine, python is fine, C++ is fine, JS is fine, ... Use what you know.

[modern ore]

JS for leetcode is insane

[solemn lynx]

i heared that some companies or some recrutiers don't accept python because it's syntex is easy and many things can just do with libraries

[modern ore]

JS doesnt even have a built in heap

[steel kindle]

I’ve never heard of that, they might restrict what libraries you can use though

[modern ore]

Are you india?

[solemn lynx]

so that's why i'm confused

[true harness]

and python doesn't have a bbst ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[steel kindle]

I mean that’s not really a problem tbf

[solemn lynx]

Okay

[modern ore]

thats one of the biggest complain from people who use js for leetcode 🤔

[solemn lynx]

okay

[modern ore]

True, but using built in BBST in interview would be cheating (sometimes), and most of the oa platforms allow sortedcontainers 🤔

[solemn lynx]

What is bbst

[modern ore]

balanced binary search tree

[true harness]

and using a built-in heap wouldn't be cheating ?

[solemn lynx]

okay

[true harness]

what'd you get on Roblox OA anyway

[modern ore]

Yep 👍

[modern ore]

580 on GCA, like 80k, 5 cars and rejected in a day wat about you

[steel kindle]

You can implement one pretty quickly

[modern ore]

I dont know if it would be worth it on OAs where speed masters and/or interviews

mf has high iq, 😹 did you get an interview

CONGRATS ORZ

[true harness]

the car one with the ramp was so weird. I couldn't figure out the sticks part

[modern ore]

I dont think roblox even cares about the scores, except for the iq tests they got

[steel kindle]

Then it’s unlikely you’ll get a question with one

[true harness]

surely they don't just take the final score. it's probably like captcha where it's tracking all your inputs

[modern ore]

what? heap questions are pretty common in OAs

[modern ore]

maybe, when is your interview 🤔

I think they probably take into account the cars and factory, then resume after that. 99% of the people can get a 600 on the roblox framework anyway. and no proctoering on top it, gpt can easily solve the second one

[true harness]

yeah the coding was surprisingly easy

[modern ore]

its just a hidden iq test after the coding portion 🤷‍♀️.

[steel kindle]

If they’re expecting you to do it in JS I’m sure they’ll consider

Otherwise you should probably be able to solve algo problems in more than one language

[modern ore]

they don't 🤔

actually let me be sure brb

@true harness did you do ctc oa?

[true harness]

what's ctc. chicago trading company? no. didn't get it

[modern ore]

@steel kindle I am wrong, Codesignal has const _datastructures_js_priority_queue = require('@datastructures-js/priority-queue');
const _datastructures_js_binary_search_tree = require('@datastructures-js/binary-search-tree'); lemem check hackejrrank

[modern ore]

you didnt paply?

[true harness]

i applied. also this might be off topic

Based on the graduation requirements for this position, we regret to inform you that we will not be moving forward with your candidacy at this time.
😔

[modern ore]

its career related 🤷‍♀️

@steel kindle did you ever end up getting an interview for roblox

[steel kindle]

No

I mean I didn’t take it too seriously, I was pretty set on going back to the same company no matter the offer, although roblox might’ve been enough if they had good WLB

WLB as in shorter than 40 hour weeks

[true harness]

you had a return offer?

[steel kindle]

From another company

So now I get to work with people I’ve already met since we only really take new hires that were interns, and my manager is somebody I worked with on some bug fixes and QA stuff as an intern

[modern ore]

tiktok is really has me in a choke hold, mfs need to stop ghosting me

[steel kindle]

Tbh I didn’t think the job market was that bad, I got 4 offers I think?

[modern ore]

when?

[steel kindle]

Last fall

For positions starting this fall

[modern ore]

I haven't gotten any interview this year, and I started applying in july* 🤔

[true harness]

nah you were just OP lol

[hearty island]

i have a dumb question. how do i communicate to my boss that i'm leaving for another internship because of the greater professional opportunities i'll have access to and that they'll pay me more without them getting super angry?

[true harness]

you don't need to say why you're leaving

[steel kindle]

lol. I mean I applied a shit ton, and I think I had a decent resume.

[hearty island]

hm ok

[modern ore]

I wonder if IMC will resume reject me after I got 100% on their OA 🛌

[steel kindle]

I mean they do several rounds of interviews

[modern ore]

I am not passing initial resume screen 🤔

[hearty island]

yeah so i'm moving from a third party administrator of healthcare to the largest medicaid provider in the country mostly for bigger opportunities

[modern ore]

@true harness did you do IMC OA?

[true harness]

stop with these acronyms 😭

[modern ore]

is "IMC Trading" better?

[steel kindle]

I just remembered that during my internship interview I answered 2 super simple questions wrong Lol

[true harness]

oh i got denied. didn't get OA

[modern ore]

For imc?

[steel kindle]

No, where I work now

[fringe sphinx]

Don’t over think it. People leave all the time. Good managers say: good luck!

[hearty island]

yeah i'm kinda worried that my boss is not going to say good luck but beg me to stay and get pissy

[fringe sphinx]

Say less, don’t feel a need to explain. It’s often easier to just say: I found a great opportunity at another company and it’s too good to pass up! It’s been great working here, and you’ve been a great manager. Thank you for the opportunity/etc.

[true harness]

what's to worry about? you're at will, right?

[hearty island]

yeah

[fringe sphinx]

If he likes you, he might ask: is it about salary? Is there something we can do? Etc. just anticipate those questions and be positive

[hearty island]

yeah, i've left the company before. also damn i got rejected after a phone screen for an associate PM position 😦

[fringe sphinx]

Like, I’ve had folks say they’re leaving and I’ve taken them to lunch to discuss. Occasionally I’ll see if there’s a way to keep them, but I’m not going to beg someone to stay.

[hearty island]

it sounded so positive over the phone idk what happened, but all i got was radio silence

[fringe sphinx]

Hiring is (at least) 50% random chance

[hearty island]

yeah she may have liked me, but maybe the team thought someone was better.

or maybe i genuinely fucked up and she didn't like my responses

[fringe sphinx]

Or an internal candidate/promotion or they decide not to fill the role or someone from a more relevant job…

[hearty island]

also true, they could've reached out to an intern and been like here's a perfect opportunity for a full time role... which i'm hoping they do at my new company

[fringe sphinx]

For any position I fill, I usually have 5 solid candidates, any of which did great and I could’ve hired.

[hearty island]

i just thought after her calling my internship experience "incredible" i thought something would be different. maybe it was just her perspective and the team thought it was ordinary. idk.

[hearty island]

maybe i shouldn't have sidestepped her salary question

[dire viper]

https://instagram.com/stories/shamibisho/3203160313565721273?igshid=YTUzYTFiZDMwYg==

[digital halo]

i have a python course
which will help anyone learn python easily

dm me

[peak halo]

the best way to get python help is to ask complete questions in the #1035199133436354600 forum, not asking people to DM you

[edgy sun]

Does anyone need linkedin premium for 2 months??
if yes, text me privately!!

[coral vine]

weird but i did an online technical assessment 2 weeks ago. it was one of the 4 companies i did online technical assessments for recently and also the one that i felt i did the worst on. it was 30m, webcam on, and 3 leetcode problems o.o

yesterday, i had a zoom video call with that company again. i thought it was going to be a call with a recruiter but there were 3 lead devs and it was behavioral + technical interview for an hour o.o so i guess that was actually the final interview o.o they said they would send me an email later. i think i did well, they seemed very happy at the end, but the field is so competitive so who knows.

it was for a swe internship position. so, what happens on their end after the final interview? anyone know? i guess i should hear back in a week or two :/ i was totally caught by surprise by both interviews xD

[gritty rivet]

I would follow up to thank them for the interview, and at the same time you can also ask if they have a timeline for when you should expect to hear back

[peak halo]

What are you going to tell people if they DM you? By being opaque about your intentions, it sounds as though there's more to this than you simply giving away free LinkedIn premium vouchers.

[coral vine]

Oh good idea. However, I don't have any of the contact information for the people who were in the interview yesterday. I just have the recruiter's email, which is the person who gave me the zoom invitation for yesterday. I will shoot them an email though, thanks.

[edgy sun]

Actually, I can't post link here. So, better if people ask me in DM.

[peak halo]

Sorry, but I do not understand what you are saying. What do people have to do to get LinkedIn premium from you?

[edgy sun]

If some need it, just take it from me

[coral vine]

Also, I haven't heard back from the other companies i have interviewed at yet. What if I get a job offer for this company and it has a 48 hour timeline to accept it? o.o

I want to continue the interview process for other companies. Also, I am expecting more interview requests in the coming weeks for companies I have never interviewed at yet. I applied to them last month so those should come soon.

how do people manage interviewing at multiple companies at the same time? o.o this company already sounds perfect and has everything i was looking for. i wouldn't mind just accepting this offer if i got one.

however, i never really got the chance to interview at the other ones so it would feel weird to just accept the first one without hearing out the other options.

[tender frost]

What if I get a job offer for this company and it has a 48 hour timeline to accept it?

Broadly speaking, you should go for the job that you do have, rather than waiting on a job that you may get

[tender frost]

The logic is basically that you're giving up the certainty of a job for a chance to maybe get one.

Let's say you leave it and then don't get anything else. Now you're screwed

[gritty rivet]

There's no perfect solution to this. You have to weigh your options as best you can. When in doubt, communicate, but the more you push for a quick answer the greater the chance that answer will be negative.

It's also fine to request a few extra days to make a decision when you need it, but again, not risk free.

[tender frost]

it would feel weird to just accept the first one without hearing out the other options

Unfortunately this just isn't how getting a job works. There's absolutely nothing wrong with going for the first thing, because remember, there may not be another one

And you said yourself this job is exactly what you're looking for, so go for it!

[gritty rivet]

And one more point about this... in some cases it may make sense to accept an offer but then reneg when a better one comes. You'll be burning a bridge a little bit but in some situations it's worth it

[true harness]

one in the hand is worth two not in the hand

[coral vine]

another question. which company would you rather work at? a hyper competitive, more well-known one that pays a lot of money? or... a company that values work/life balance and has an amazing benefit package, and the team is very supportive of eachother?

[leaden jasper]

to add onto this, for my current job I was able to ask for ~5 extra business days to decide. But that was pushing it a little bit. ime they've been a bit more understandable if there's active interview process still scheduled/in-process.

[tender frost]

The latter, definitely

I'd only even consider the first if I was in a situation where I really needed the money

[leaden jasper]

The second, hands down and no doubts.

If you like the company, the benefits and pay are good, and the interview went well ... then go for that. Don't wait around for a theoretical better offer if you like the one in hand

[delicate bane]

this is somewhat of a personal decision. for me, i would pick the latter if given a choice.

but i also have a podcast snippet supporting the former. one sec

[true harness]

I'd probably take the former

[delicate bane]

#ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare message

[delicate bane]

when are you making your podcast appearance

[true harness]

I'm not famous yet. or is the podcast how I get famous 😩

[coral vine]

so, sacrifice the excitement of working at "staaarbucks" for..... the chill happy life at "grandmas donuts and coffee" shop? o.o i am referencing my latest question 😛

[delicate bane]

i mean, did you see the snippet? i thought she put it pretty well regarding the "starbucks" choice

[coral vine]

i thought the best part was feeling "cool", like a total bad ass 😛

[delicate bane]

i cant tell if youre being sarcastic so ill just go do chores

[near ocean]

Whats the difference in salaries

[coral vine]

$25/hr vs $50/hr

[near ocean]

Yea i'd pick the higher salary at this point in life

[true harness]

ayo. that is not just a tiny difference

[pine sleet]

Personally I would definetely pick the former

[near ocean]

Its double 💀 why is this even a question

[coral vine]

oops, that $25/hr is intern rate. but it is $50/hr once it is full time

[rose steeple]

Any one know the excel formula for this

[near ocean]

So there is no difference in salaries?

[pine sleet]

Personally if I was an intern, I'd just go with whichever was the higher pay. they're mostly for the summer and i could put up with them

[rose steeple]

Might have placed in the wrong chat 🤦‍♂️

[coral vine]

ok woops again. the real rates are $50/hr vs $70/hr

[near ocean]

💀 guy just pick the better pay

[coral vine]

dont people burn out easily and then that better pay ends up being ... less pay? because the job is so stressful?

[near ocean]

How easily? Are you going to burnout as a young adult within 2 years?

The higher you start, the more your buffer for taking pay cuts for benefits later in life

[coral vine]

#career-advice message would you take the risk of losing an offer in this situation o.o , for the possibility of a better paying one? o.o

but forreal, how do people make such difficult decisions in life Dx

[near ocean]

I think its worth asking for more time to consider it and also asking the other places to hurry up cause you got offers in already

[smoky quest]

I recommend to go in batches of 4-6 companies at a time so that there will be others at the same time.

Getting a better pay with the future interviews is not guaranteed as most companies are settling on market data and it becomes a matter of which percentile of the market they are targeting.

I will also add it does not strictly depend on the max($$$) you can get. You should also consider the market, the equity, the team, the growth potential, etc.

If yourself are already thinking about the next interviews while having that offer on hand, I would also take it as a sign you aren't that much into that offer.

[smoky quest]

And one last thing: life is unfair. But it looks like it's on your side
The fact you got an offer means you will have decent chances at getting another one

[fringe sphinx]

Old man energy here; whichever one has a more interesting project/problem. I care about what I’m doing, I can thrive anywhere. I really don’t believe what anyone says about culture or company.

[coral vine]

i kind of did it in a batch. i interviewed at the 4 companies on 9/5, 9/12, 9/14, and 9/15. i didnt pick companies i was most interested in yet unfortunately. i was just going down this list https://github.com/SimplifyJobs/Summer2024-Internships so i am kind of bummed out that i didnt get to try all the cool ones. I kind of just wanted to gain interview practice. i wasnt expecting interviews to come quickly or even that i may even get any offer since i felt so unprepared but i might actually land an offer for this one since they seemed pretty happy in the final interview.

i was planning to save my most favorite companies for last

[smoky quest]

Yes it happens. But that's also a sign you are performing well at interviews 😉

[true harness]

daaaaamn 4 companies off here?

[coral vine]

apparently fall internships opened up late august so maybe applying early was a big advantage. i got really worn out from all the back to back interviews. i realize now i should have maybe applied to the cooler ones that i wanted? :/ i was planning for there to be a 30 day gap before the first interviews started, i was going to use that time to prepare but nope they came quick and i wasnt prepared and took a big morale hit for each of the interviews i did

so now i dont have mental stamina to do more interviews. also i just got out of a giant arm cast 2 days ago! i was in a cast for 3 months o.o rode an ebike on the beach bike route, slipped on some sand on a curve, and broke some bones Dx

[spark cobalt]

Wooo!! Congrats!

[spark cobalt]

Not the full story. Choose internship that helps fuel your career better. That meaning: An internship that focuses on an area of technology you want to specialize in, or internship at company you would genuinely wanna work in after graduation etc.

I mean, would you work in a startup that will give you work that has pretty immediate impact in a field you want to specialize in or do CRUD that no one will see at FAANG for another 3 years after two months of onboarding?

FAANG internship helps your career in one way (huge signal for post graduation in terms of how you compare to other students, since they are notoriously competitive), and startup internship with the content of your career.

[smoky quest]

I would encourage you to switch your thinking.
A higher paid internship means nothing. It will have zero impact on your career and future jobs (or internships). But cool, you got a few hundreds dollars more over the course of your 2-3 months internship.

However a more interesting internship could have an unlimited impact on your career, even if it's to discover you hate that domain that you thought you may like. It can also open more doors and give you an edge.

[pine sleet]

[coral vine]

oh the company that i interviewed at on 9/15 said they would give results within 15 days. it is 9/30 now! so i guess i will hear back from more companies this upcoming week. 😮

also the thing that i liked about this company that i might get an offer for already, is that it is a really big company, however, it has so many learning opportunities. they talked about all the different things i can learn here and that the people in this culture are super welcoming to helping eachother out. this is not something ive seen from other companies ive looked at. other companies i've seen sound hyper-competitive , aggressive , low learning opportunities due to scale. however, it is not the case for this company. that is why i liked it a lot. also they can pay for me to finish my bachelors and masters was the 2nd thing i liked

[gritty rivet]

Forgive me if this is obvious but to be clear, I wouldn't assume that you'll hear back from anyone. Hope for the best, but keep applying in the meantime if you can. You can always back out of the interview process once you have a real offer

[coral vine]

it is just not a company you think about when you think about software development. that is why i consider it "grandmas donuts and coffee" shop. it is also why i was kind of thinking about taking the risk to complete the rest of the pending interviews. but then im kind of scared the others will be way too competitive and i just shoot myself in my foot o.o and miss out on a great company culture :/

everything is turning out way too unexpected! however, after this discussion, i guess what is most important is to just build my skill and work on the most interesting project that i can. i believe "grandmas donuts and coffee" shop offers that opportunity.

as opposed to the cooler ones, i may miss out on that opportunity because it is too competitive

[smoky quest]

make lists.
Like lists of pros/cons, what you get/missing, etc.

[coral vine]

but then it is hard to know what holds most value if i dont have much experience since i havent finished school. like what is more valuable? a well known company name with low contribution? or a lesser known company where i built impactful software?

i feel like what got me interviews was contributing to open source for a well known company.

that is why i am conflicted now while trying to decide if i should settle with a lesser known company. as opposed to taking the risk to maybe land a job at a well known company where i sacrifice the good culture and benefits for the more well known company?

im not sure what i will miss out on if i dont take the risk for a few more months of interviewing, just to see if i get a well known company instead? :/

but from what i currently understand......... how well known a company is makes a biiiiiiiiiig difference

[smoky quest]

That's the point of making lists. It will help you see things you are unsure and need to validate or dive in.

The name of the company won't matter as much as what you do during your internships and the bullets you will put on your resume afterwards.

But all in all, you will have the same problem throughout your life. You will have multiple doors to pick from and there won't be a rail for your life anymore.

You may also want to look into the least regret framework

[charred pivot]

after 2 days i have an interview any last moment resource for interview preparation for python.

[gritty rivet]

Having a well known company your resume can definitely be a good thing, but ultimately it's not as important as everything else that matters. The actual quality of the experience you're gaining is number one

Also remember that accepting a job is not a lifelong commitment. You can always be looking, can always leave for a better offer (although not all countries are as flexible as others, I'm in the US where early career job hopping is normal)

[gritty rivet]

Know the company and prepare accordingly

Practice. Mock interviews are great

You can find loads of resources online if you search around for whatever you need help with

If you have no idea what the focus of the interview will be, ask

[coral vine]

i have FOMO xD always need to see all the possibilities before i make a decision 😮 but in this case, it is not possible Dx well based off of the least regret framework, id probably stick to the lesser known company because it is much more peaceful/stable and i can finish my bachelors and masters there. and by the time i want a new company, i would have a lot of skill due to all the learning opportunities they provided. also, my mental health would not be destroyed since it is more chill

anyways thanks all for the insights. lots of things mentioned that i wouldnt have thought about!

farewell all of the doors that i never got to see what is inside ... sniffle

[fringe sphinx]

You also have to consider that you’re making decisions with incomplete information. There are many variables out of your control and visibility/knowledge, so it simply is not possible nor helpful. I’ve worked for big tech teams that feel like small startups, and small startups that are burdened with process. It’s impossible to read.

[smoky quest]

One thing to note is to also challenge yourself sometimes. Growth comes from pain

[coral vine]

see, that is the challenging part. dont want to challenge myself too much that i end up landing myself into the hospital. id rather play it safe and ensure i get the degrees instead of the dose of major depression that comes with instability o.o

[smoky quest]

Challenging yourself doesn't mean you have to start doing base jumping off cliffs today.
It means that you need to incorporate some things you aren't comfortable with. If you only go for things you are comfortable and successful with, then you aren't doing more than you were doing yesterday.

Obviously, the trick is to know how far you can or want to take it

[brazen island]

Been hearing a lot of rumblings about "the though market" and "the job market is bad" recently, more than usual. I don't want to be insensitive but is the market really that bad or is it something that has echoed so much through Reddit it is now a universal truth?

Either way, I think it may be a bad thing to focus on as it becomes an escape hatch to not keep trying / improving.

[true harness]

it's free copium fr

[pine sleet]

People who are having hard time finding a job/internship are generally going to be more vocal than people who are satisfied

[coral vine]

red pill or blue pill. your choice, neo

[gritty rivet]

I mean, the job market in many ways is definitely a lot worse then it was when it was hot

But therer is never a bad time to invest in your skills, and you don't need to take big risks to do so

[brazen island]

Is there economic data that supports when it was "hot" and that supports it's "not hot" now? (Not a rhetorical question, I'm just curious what the source of this all is)

[smoky quest]

the waves of lay off is a good indication

[brazen island]

It's still anecdotal. How much of the total workforce do they employ? On top of that the trends that impact big businesses are not the same as those that impact SME's. How much of the SWE's are employed by SME's % wise etc.

I'm not disputing that the market is "bad", I'm just curious if there's anything but ancedotal evidence on it 🙂

[smoky quest]

layoffs are recorded in systems like WARN which provides a historical track of record.
So what's the bar to anecdotal or not?

I am sure some folks have also looked at the job posts on indeed/linkedin and done some analysis. But I didn't care enough to check

[brazen island]

I have no idea what WARN is, if there's been any analysis done it's not anecdotal. My fear is that people on Reddit and Ycombinator saw big tech lay off a couple of thousand people and went into overdrive which made the message echo until infinity.

[maiden bluff]

python is the better lenguage!

[smoky quest]

https://layoffdata.com/data/

Overall, the market is better than a few months ago but still tougher than before.
I don't have a scientific studies and I doubt you will find any for the next few months as all such studies are backward looking and need enough data to be sound enough to pass rigorous scientific tests.

So while we should be careful as to not fall into hypes, be they positive or negative, we should also be careful into not falling into unrealistic expectations of scientific proofs

[brazen island]

I don't think I asked for scientific proofs, I'm sorry if I gave you that impression 😄 this qualifies as "economic data" and not anecdotal

[smoky quest]

No worries. Better be explicit than implicit 🙂
But to answer your question, diving into the numbers of tech workers layoffs over months might be a good starting point

[smoky quest]

https://www.bls.gov/bls/about-bls.htm might also be a good starting point

[fringe sphinx]

It is indeed unusually bad for entry level. This blog actually summarized things quite accurately, it’s what I’m seeing: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-software-engineers/

The root was a lot of the inflation and recession panic that started late last year, a cluster of layoffs in big tech caused a (imo) short term imbalance while also triggering hiring freezes throughout the industry

[smoky quest]

• money become more expensive
• post-covid correction on the growth

[fringe sphinx]

I think you’ll see, once panic subsides, increased hiring in mid/small tech… companies that have struggled for years to find engineers

Of course, FAANG might just resume their massive over hiring and excessive comp packages.

[smoky quest]

Companies may also re-open the hiring once they adjust to the market

[brazen island]

Yeah, I don't know. Part of this is again from the perspective of things that influence big business disproportionately. The VC tap drying up hits moms and pops (software) shops less.

But inflation at large hit everyone so there's merit to that 🤷

[smoky quest]

also note that I would think of the market as bimodal. People who are good in that above the average curve won't have an issue even in a bad market

[brazen island]

I always found the US tech market interesting. People struggling to get in.

Here demand is so much higher than supply that 1) The govt is willing to fund a college degree in applied CS 2) If you have no degree but a keyboard and are willing to learn many places might take a chance and try and train you.

It's especially strange considering I'd imagine there's way more tech jobs per capita in the US.

[fringe sphinx]

This has only been an issue for last 12 months or so.

[gritty rivet]

Or course there are loads of data. Here's a good place to start. You can see how there were net new jobs month after months in 2021, but things have been pretty flat since then. Not a bloodbath but it does make things more challenging, especially for less people experienced people trying to break in. https://www.computerworld.com/article/3542681/how-many-jobs-are-available-in-technology.html

[smoky quest]

nice!

[steel kindle]

It’s bad but there’s still lots of positions hiring. People should try not to get discouraged.

[errant fog]

Hi, if I learn MySQL, Django, TDD design patterns, among other things, can I get a junior job even without a college degree? I intend to go to college next year, but I need to start working as soon as possible....I thank the answer

[spark cobalt]

It depends where you are in the world in terms of your competition for these entry level jobs. In the US, the competition for entry level jobs is predominantly those with degrees or people that already have extensive careers in something else. Those without a degree or a career at all are often just looked over when employers have a much lower risk in hiring someone that has a degree.

[young spindle]

there are probably very few places where you'd be able to get a full job with those credentials. you might be able to snag an internship somewhere, many of which are full time just with less pay, but if you aren't going to college currently those would also be difficult to grab, since you're competing with those currently studying

[spark cobalt]

You technically can get a job, but it might not be a plausible route. You can consider some contract/freelance/internship work as a college student. But it is very unlikely people hire a high school graduate.

[spark cobalt]

Look at this from the employers side: What separates you from the 99% of the rest of applicants that spent 4 years in higher education learning, many of which have internships, etc.?

Also since you will only be able to work for a year or so (since you start college in a year), you'd probably only really be eligible for contractor positions which generally pays less

[errant fog]

So if I start college, can I get an internship or freelance?

[spark cobalt]

Internships are predominantly only available to college students. Freelance work to college students is pretty common, but not exclusive to college students, it'd just be easier.

[errant fog]

I need to work regardless of how I enter the job market in this area...Thank you very much for the response, it was very quick

[errant fog]

is it possible in the first year of college ?

[spark cobalt]

Yes.

Internships for freshman are rare, but possible. Typically those that get internships as a freshman have been doing programming for quite a while already. @true harness is an example of someone who got an internship freshman year. (hey uwu :3 yamete kudasai~)

[fringe sphinx]

I wonder if you can open a tmux inside vscode

[pine sleet]

in the VSCode terminal?

[spark cobalt]

rong chanel

[fringe sphinx]

Freshman should also consider tech but non programming jobs too… helpdesk, support, etc. Any job is work experience, and is helpful

[spark cobalt]

yuh

[fringe sphinx]

But maybe take this convo to #career-advice ?

[pine sleet]

i believe they're already there :P

[fringe sphinx]

Oh weird, I thought I was in pydis

I was the ot one

[pine sleet]

What do I do wrt internships for next summer if I don't know about my living situation next summer? Just apply for remote only?

[young spindle]

remote is a safe bet. there are occasionally internships that offer to pay for relocation for the duration

[summer roost]

Can you elaborate? It's not uncommon to temporarily relocate for an internship

[pine sleet]

It might just be too early to tell (which is why I'm asking here) but I suspect:

• I'll either stay where I am now over the summer
• Go back to my parents place
• Be at a different campus for university
  And if I'm applying for internships now, I'm not sure where I should be applying for

I'm a freshman right now, so it's not like I need an internship but it would be nice

[cedar plover]

Hi I have a question regarding creating an application, can multiple interfaces be in the same system for example hard buttons, touch user interface, graphical user interface, menu-driven user interface, and form-based user interface exist at the sametime?

[pine sleet]

You can ask in #ot1-perplexing-regexing , this channel is for careers

[white relic]

Just apply wherever you want to work and figure out the living arrangements when you actually have something lined up. You don't need to know already where you will live next summer (even if the not knowing drives you mad, I sympathize, but still)

[summer roost]

Yeah. Consider living where you get an internship for a few months, instead of getting an internship where you live

[pine sleet]

Hmm alright, didn't think of it that way. Thanks!

[smoky quest]

if the internship is paid, it should be able to cover the rent and expenses

[smoky quest]

there are less remote internships than on site.
I will also argue the remote internships are less useful

[modern ore]

I fumbled so hard on OA just now, I could've gotten the full solution but took too long to understand the question. Mfs asked a question that required binary search with queue optimized with a frequency array and then check for cache hit or miss 😭

[smoky quest]

and here I am asking about fizzbuzz and having to reject 80% of the candidates

[modern ore]

I was like this close to the answer, I should've just tried to get the bruteforce poitns instead of trying to optimize 🛌

[modern ore]

on interviews?

[smoky quest]

yeah

I am having a hard time finding someone to have an interesting conversation with

that said, it quickly go from 0 to hundred with distributed concurrent systems if they can do fizzbuzz

but getting into "different machines on different continents don't share the same memory space" shouldn't be that hard

[modern ore]

like trivia?

[smoky quest]

no, more like solving an actual problem

[modern ore]

like they're coding up adistributed concurrent systems

[smoky quest]

think things like lock free algorithms about distributed and concurrent datastructures

[smoky quest]

like think about a concurrent and distributed queue

60% of the candidates would tell me to use the volatile keyword
And I am like: so you have a machine in Japan and another in London and they can avoid issues with visibility of the value with the volatile keyword?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[modern ore]

🤔

[smoky quest]

bro

[modern ore]

tbh idk nothing about distrabuted systems

what is use vaolatile keyword mean

[smoky quest]

your laptop memory shares nothing with my desktop memory

[modern ore]

True

[smoky quest]

so volatile would do shit, in technical terms

[modern ore]

What are you suppose to use

[smoky quest]

in my question, I am going through a memcached server that offers:
get(K, V)
set(K, V)
compareAndSet(K, oldV, new V)

so you do have primitives to solve the problem

kind of frustating to be honest.
You keep pointing them at what you want them to use. But they are like no fam, I am just going to use a volatile keyword or concurrenthashmap

[coarse crag]

I currently understand nothing but in the future i'll do my best to learn these things in order to not frustrate my future interviewer 😭

[coarse crag]

What is the position that the interviewee is applying for?

[true ether]

hi

i have the option to choose between HR, Marketing, and business analytics as my major in my MBA degree and i can select only 2 and i live in India currently. please help me out. What should i choose?

[lime pike]

Whenever I try to edit my python file in idle
It creates a separate folder named pycache...

[true ether]

#python-discussion

[lime pike]

Ty

[spark cobalt]

Process of elimination them. Surely there are things you researched about these majors that you don't like (particularly what jobs they will lead you to at graduation, the state of the market for those jobs, pay, etc.)

[blissful prawn]

hi all, im am 1 year 8 months experienced web developer. Now i wanna switch my job. But problem is no one wants to hire with less than two years of experience. I applied few job jobs. I applied to a few jobs that required two years of experience, but no one responded. What should I do?

[bleak tinsel]

job market is absolute trash right now

[vapid jay]

Mass spam, till you get something, don't even check. Most ads are either scams, low paid positions, or marketing

[ivory compass]

it's brutal at least when I tried applying took about 10 months and only started knowing how to get to the final rounds at the 6/7th month mark. If you dont even have the first step of getting interviews, perhaps its to focus on your resume

[blissful prawn]

can i dm you?

[ivory compass]

sure

[bright finch]

how is the pay these days for backend software engineers?

the job market is hilariously absurd in general, but, what about the pay?

[vapid jay]

Accepted just because I was getting the same purposal all over again, and this time around, it was really close to home

[pallid ferry]

Do you guys have any idea of a project, that 180 hours worth of work ?

[lapis wind]

any particular reason for 180 hours

[pallid ferry]

It's a university Module, where one has to choose something by himself to implement and it should be worth 180 hours

[lapis wind]

Is there any particular topic you are interested in?

[pallid ferry]

I tried building an agent for an environment from openAI once...I'm interested in writing a compiler now but still don't know for which language, as it can be quite a laborious task

[lapis wind]

A compiler will take way longer than 180 hours

If this was a compiler that was actually vaugely useful

[pallid ferry]

Maybe for some very old language ?

[lapis wind]

You could do something like a compiler frontend

that then passes to LLVM or similar which would probably take less time to be functional

[pallid ferry]

It's ok if it surpasses 180, I have 4 - 5 months of time anyway

[pallid ferry]

Let me google that ^^

[true ether]

I eliminated 3 out of 7 now i am confused for these three i tried researching them but unable to find the scope i need balanced promotion

[pallid ferry]

so an LLVM is a kind of abstraction level where you could feed it the output of any compiler frontend ?

[lapis wind]

LLVM effectively has it's own intermediate language

which you give it, and then it compiles that to the target, this is how basically all modern compilers work, in most compiled languages you actually have several intermediate forms and abstractions

[white relic]

Look at the coursework required for each and see if anything stands out.
Beyond that, I don't know what we could tell you that would help make a decision. All three are sensible choices but they lead to rather different careers. What kind of career do you want?

[pallid ferry]

Does since it makes the process easier, does that mean I could write a compiler frontend for C in 4 months? What's ur assement ?